Ep. 334 Trevin Wax - What Story Are You Living In? A Catechism That Roots You in the Story of Christ
August 22, 2025 • 49 mins
What story are you living in? In this episode, Trevin Wax joins me to explore how the church can root itself more deeply in the story of Scripture. We talk about The Gospel Way Catechism, the ancient practice of catechesis, and why discipleship is more than just memorizing truths - it’s learning to walk in the way of Jesus. Along the way, Trevin shares why true freedom is found in submission to God, how cultural narratives like the American Dream can subtly reshape our faith, and why the global church is vital for our own spiritual health. This conversation invites us to reexamine the stories shaping us and to rediscover the flourishing life Jesus offers.
Trevin Wax is vice president of research and resource development at the North American Mission Board and a visiting professor at Cedarville University. A former missionary to Romania, Trevin is a regular columnist at The Gospel Coalition and has lectured on Christianity and culture at Oxford University. His new book is The Gospel Way Catechism.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Saying yes to Jesus will complicate your life more
than simplify it, usually,because it's going to lead to
all kinds of other things. Butdoing that, but walking his way
with him, and he doesn't justtell us to walk the way alone.
It's with him. I think that's,that's what makes all the
difference. You Joshua,
Joshua Johnson (00:28):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, what story
are we really living in we tellourselves stories about freedom
and success and identity all thetime. Some of them are cultural
scripts, the American dream,consumerism, individualism.
(00:50):
Others are deeply Christianstories of redemption and
resurrection. But often we don'trealize which one is actually
shaping us day by day. My guesttoday, Trevin wax, has spent his
life wrestling with thatquestion, from years in Romania
as a missionary to his recentwork on the gospel way
catechism, Trevin has beenasking, how do we help the
church not just know the truthsof the faith, but live into the
(01:12):
way of Jesus? In thisconversation, we explore
catechesis, not as a roteexercise, but as a counter
cultural practice, somethingthat pushes back on the false
stories of our age and roots usagain in the story of Scripture.
We talk about what true freedomis, why the church can't afford
to forget its global body, andhow discipleship is not just
about having the right answers,it's also about inhabiting the
(01:35):
WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFEtogether. So join us as we
rethink what it means to beformed as a disciple, and what
story we're really living insideof. Here is my conversation with
Trevin wax. Trevin, welcome toshifting culture. Excited to
have you on. Thanks for joiningme. Thank you so much for having
me. Glad to be here. Yeah, I'dlove to just know where some of
(01:58):
your passion for rooting peoplein truth, the way of the Gospel,
the story of the Bible, and rootpeople in there. Where does that
come from? Why is this somethingthat you're passionate about?
Unknown (02:10):
No, I think this is, for me, it's all tied up with
discipleship, with wanting towalk in the way of Jesus and to
see the church look more likehim. For me, that's all tangled
up with mission work as well. Ispent five years overseas doing
mission work in Romania when Iwas a college student, when I
was doing cross cultural missionwork, one of the things that
(02:33):
that opportunity affords you isthe ability to get outside of
your own culture for an extendedperiod of time, to learn another
language, to to learn to inhabita different set of sensibilities
and and then when you come backto the to the society you left,
you're changed, and you havedifferent set of eyes, because
(02:55):
there are certain things thatare taken for granted in a
society that you you start to beable to to see and so. So one of
my passions for the last 20years really has been, you know,
wanting to see churches inAmerica look more like Christ,
be rooted, grounded in thefaith, not just a faith that's
palatable for 21st Centurywesternized North Americans and
(03:19):
individualistic faith, but onethat actually does is rooted in
the scriptures, of course, andin the great tradition of the
church. And so that's reallywhere this comes. It's really,
for me, this passion for truthis connected to a passion for
discipleship.
Joshua Johnson (03:33):
We're supposed to be disciples of Jesus, right?
That's right. That's the point.
And be a disciple of Jesus. Soas you're looking this gospel
way, catechism that you'rebringing, there's 50 truths in
there, and root us in the story.
What is catechesis? What iscatechism, and what was the
(03:53):
tradition in the early churchlike when it comes to
catechesis? Yeah,
Unknown (03:57):
catechesis is one of those big, scary words that
just, I mean, it sounds scary inEnglish, but it just, it simply
means instruction. You know,it's basically, it's the old
word for instruction. Theancient church actually had this
practice of before someone wasbaptized, and you had to
understand, like in those earlycenturies of the church. I mean,
baptism was a here, sometimesit's taken very flippantly or
(04:17):
very without the level ofseriousness at times, because
there, I mean, it was really a,a saying goodbye to your old
life and welcoming in your newlife. And the church welcoming
you into the to the fellowship.
And then there being, you know,it was a, it was a moment of
allegiance, declaration ofwhere, where your allegiance
lies. And so, because of that,often on special days throughout
(04:42):
the year in some of the earlycenturies of the church, for
example, Easter Sunday andothers, those would be big
baptism days. But in the lead upto that, they would actually
take, they called themcatechumens. They would take
people who were wanting tobecome Christians and join the
church. They would take. Themthrough a process where they
really, truly, deeply at thefoundational level were to
(05:03):
understand what it is they'reconfessing, what it is they are
pledging allegiance to what doesit mean to actually be a
follower of Jesus and then theywould be baptized? So that's the
ancient church tradition. Duringthe period of the Reformation,
there was another explosion ofcatechisms, catechesis, that
happened in part because theProtestant reformers were were
wanting to react to and theywere there. They were pushing
(05:27):
against some of what they saw asthe corruptions and the
accretions that had accumulatedin the Roman Catholic church at
the time. And so they weresetting forth a distinctively
Protestant vision understandingof the Christian faith. And so
you see confessions of faith,catechisms, especially you call
a lot of times. We call thosethe classic catechisms, but it's
(05:49):
always been present in thechurch. There have been seasons
where there's been like arevival of it, but this question
and answer format where you havevery concise answers to specific
questions. It's been with thechurch for a long time. It's a
tool of discipleship, and it'sone that I think we shouldn't
lose sight of.
Joshua Johnson (06:11):
Have we lost sight of it? And what do you
think discipleship has lookedlike when we have lost sight of
Unknown (06:16):
it? Yeah, I you know, I think in some circles of the
church we have. I sometimes whenI when a question like that
comes up, because there are alot of pockets of the church, a
lot of pockets of the church,not just in North America, but
globally. I mean, I, you know, Ifeel like sometimes we give
short shrift to what's happeningin the global church when we
think of catechesis, butoverall, I do think that there
(06:38):
has been a move away from thatas well. That's just wrote, it's
just ritualistic. Some peoplewould say, oh, it's all
intellectual. It's just learningthe right answers, not really
living into them, which I'vealways been, these have always
been criticisms of catechism,catechisms. And no one, I don't
think even people that arepromoting catechisms would ever
say it's the be all, end all ofthe Christian faith, the one
(06:59):
solution that will fit, youknow, it's one tool in the
toolbox to help form and shapeyour mind and hopefully your
heart, so that you're more intune with what the Scriptures
teach, that you sort of liveinto that scriptural storyline
and then are able to live outyour role as someone who is
(07:20):
participating In this. You knowwhat? Kevin Vanhoozer would say,
that the drama of doctrine, thedivine drama of redemption, that
that we see in the scriptures.
Joshua Johnson (07:28):
I was just reading something from from
Leonard sweet, from Lynn sweet,he said that identity, we don't
have identity unless it's rootedin story. Like the only way we
could find our identity iswithin story. So if people
really aren't catechized to thestory, if we don't know that the
macro story like beginning toend a lot of times, some people,
(07:50):
they just, they're going tochurch, they're getting, you
know, pieces here and there, andthey haven't actually been
catechized into the the mainstory, so they can move with
shifts and changes of culture orother things, because the
identity is not there. What doyou think the the macro story,
(08:12):
like seeing all of this does forus as followers of Jesus? How
does that help us?
Unknown (08:18):
Yeah, no, that's it.
That's so crucial what you justlaid out there, because I think
it's very easy for people, evenpeople who attend church, like
you just mentioned, it's veryeasy for people who attend
church to be living out of adifferent story with the Bibles
or religious practice of somesort just tacked on. It's very
easy, for example, to live with,basically within the story of
(08:42):
the American dream, you knowthat the purpose of life is to
acquire more wealth, have a goodreputation, live comfortably.
That, you know, basically theconsumeristic story of life.
It's very easy. And then just tosort of attach God on to that,
you know, for a little spiritualsprinkling of transcendence on
your life, you know when youfeel like you need that. And I
(09:04):
think that's very, very easy,very common, very possible. And
it's not that's not unique toour era. Maybe the American
Dream part is more than otherparts than other centuries of
Christian history. But this ideathat you're, you're living
according to a false story, andnot the true story of the world
is told by the scriptures. It'ssomething that the church always
(09:26):
has to wrestle with, and thatChristians have to have to have
to grapple with it. Catechesishelps with that. It doesn't
necessarily solve that, becausesome of the some of the
catechisms that are out thereare not really all about the
story. They're really just aboutpoints of doctrine, but they
don't have the story ofredemption as sort of the
overarching, very clearlyunderstood thing. And so that's
(09:48):
something with this resourcewe're trying to rectify at some
level. But the reason why itmakes a difference is we want
people living according to thestory as told by Jesus. Because
the story of our world isunfolded from Genesis to
Revelation. People to understandtheir need to be in the story.
You know, I heard I was just ata Preaching Conference in
(10:08):
Alabama, and I got to give aresponse to Alistair McGrath
from who's well known, you know,professor at Oxford, was once an
atheist and has written a greatbiography of CS Lewis and
whatnot, and he used the examplethat of CS Lewis's Narnia story.
You know, The Lion, the Witchand the Wardrobe. When that?
When the Pevensey children firstget to Narnia, they have to
(10:29):
decide which story is right? Isthe White Witch really the the
queen of the realm, or is is Hasshe? Is she a usurper in Aslan,
the true King of Narnia, iscoming back one day, three of
the kids adopt into one of thestories, buy into one of the
stories. One of them goes withthe other story. But they at
(10:49):
some level, then they have tofigure out, not only what story
am I living in, you have toanswer that question, but as
Alistair MacIntyre, thephilosopher, talked about, I
can't answer the question, Whatam I supposed to do until I
answer the further, the formerquestion of, what story am I a
part of, of what story am I in?
(11:10):
And I think that's crucial forChristians if we want them to
live like Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (11:14):
And it seems to me, if I'm looking at AG,
culture at the moment, is wedon't know what story we're
living in. And so there are somany ways to go about doing
something, because we're like,we're actually being formed into
something else, or being formedin the ways of culture or the
world and in other ways. And sothis is, I mean, it's important
(11:37):
that we get the story. And wecould see that one of the things
you said earlier was there wassome criticism with catechism
when it's just really abouttruth and head knowledge and
doesn't get into the way. At thevery beginning of your book, you
said, Hey, we want the gospelway catechism, but we believe
that Jesus is the Way, the Truthand the Life. And when I look at
(11:59):
way truth and life, I actuallylook and not just see truth or
the received doctrine and truth,but I say, oh, there is a way, a
way of living, and then lifewith community, with others,
like we're living as a life. Howcan we use something like this,
the catechisms, and then make itsomething where we could
(12:21):
actually see some holisticdiscipleship, where it does
impact some of the ways that welive and we embody Jesus, and
then the life that we live withother believers.
Unknown (12:33):
Yeah, I think that's a really important point you're
making, that you can't you can'tseparate way truth and life, not
not and you can't separate themand be faithful to the vision
that Jesus has for us. I thinkone way that a catechism can
help in more than one category,rather than just the truth
category, is that if the truthsare presented in such a way as
(12:55):
they push against the commonsense wisdom of the world, or
sort of the the ways on offer inour world, then at least there's
a better shot at Christians, whoare, you know, internalizing
that truth, articulating thattruth, maybe even memorizing
that truth, if there's that,that edge where the truth that
they're memorizing is isspecifically and intentionally
(13:18):
pushing against some of the waysof the world that would draw us
in one way or another, maybe tugat our hearts here, pull us
there, make us drift in someway, shift in ways with culture
that would be inappropriate towhat the Bible teaches. Then I
think at least there's, thereyou're there's a wrestling with
the truth where it's not I'mjust memorizing doctrinal facts,
(13:40):
but I'm actually internalizingtruth that I know is going to
make me stand out and going tolead me to live in a different
way. And then if you do this incommunity with other people, and
you have the good discussionsthat happen, and they're robust
conversations about, what doesit what does this look like,
fleshed out, not just arguedout, but fleshed out in real
life, you know, in small groups,in communities and churches
(14:01):
whatnot, then I think you have abetter shot at seeing a more
holistic wealth, rounded tool ofdiscipleship, like a catechism
having some fruit.
Joshua Johnson (14:11):
So then what does that look like? Take me
into someone that maybe willfacilitate this catechism within
a church. What makes for a goodfacilitator to help people walk
through these things and thenwrestle with it so it actually
impacts their everyday life andnot just receive doctrinal
truth. What's a goodfacilitator?
Unknown (14:31):
Yeah, good. A good facilitator first. I mean, the
the best teachers are areteaching out of the overflow of
their own passion. So if we'recalling it facilitation
teachers, modelingapprenticeship, whatever we want
to call it, at the end of theday, that facilitator has got to
have the passion that, hey,this, this thing that we're
(14:52):
learning really does matter. Notonly matter for getting the
answer right, but also matterfor for how we live. So if it's,
oh, I. Of the overflow of theirpassion. That's the first and
most important key. You know,you hand up any kind of
curriculum, book and workbook tosomeone, and if it's just like,
oh yeah, I guess we're goingthrough this now, you know,
well, the group's gonna feel thesame way, you know, like they're
(15:15):
gonna, they're gonna rise to thelevel of the passion of the
leader in that situation. But agood facilitator, I think, has
passion for the for the truthsbeing presented. Is teaching
leading out of the overflow, butat the same time modeling for
the group. Hey, this is how youreally dig into this. This whole
week, you're going to focus onone question. There's a little
(15:36):
bit of commentary. You got somescriptures there you can read,
but you're going to focus on onequestion. Go over it every day.
This week, we're going to comeback, and I want all the, not
just the discussion questions inthe book, but anything has been
prompted by your own workingthrough this question and some
of those scriptures. Bring thatto the table. Let's put it on
the table, and let's, let'sdiscuss it. There's a lot of
good learning that happens inthat back and forth where you
(15:59):
know because the truth should,it should only be
countercultural, and that itmakes people in the world feel
uncomfortable. We it should makeus as Christians feel
uncomfortable. I mean, Jesus hada lot to say to religious
people, just to, you know, topeople out outside the faith, so
to speak. So. So I think lettingthe truth work on you over the
(16:19):
week and then coming together asa community to talk about
whatever's come up, whateveryou've been thinking, prompting
real life conversations anddiscussions where this would be
applied, how it would beapplied. I think that's really
key for a great groupexperience. And most people, if
you ask them, what have beentheir best group experiences,
(16:40):
they'll say, Well, I had thisone teacher, or this facility or
this leader who was just amazingand passionate. They'll say
that, but at the same time,they'll talk about the
discussions they had.
Joshua Johnson (16:50):
You're right, and I think it's the
discussions, the passion of theteacher, the facilitator, when
you were thinking about writingthis, you and and Thomas, as
you're walking through the thiscatechism, and you're saying,
okay, maybe the the the world,the culture, is shaping us in a
way where it's it's not likeChrist, and we want to help
(17:13):
believers be shaped like Christand look like Christ. What's one
story from culture that has beenshaping people that you wanted
to help root people in the truthand the way of Jesus that is
counter to the way of culture.
Unknown (17:31):
I love that question because it brings me. That
brings me to one of my favoritequestions to talk about. We,
because this is a catechism thathas a counter cultural element
to it. We we develop somequestions that are not in the
traditional catechisms. They'renot and one of those that I, I
think I go back to again andagain as an example, is the
(17:51):
question about freedom. What isfreedom? It's in the in the
section about our identity andour purpose. But the reason why
I think we have to ask thisquestion is because in our
society today, we have movedaway from the ancient
understanding of freedom asbasically a freedom for becoming
a certain kind of person, whereit was like the freedom to
(18:13):
accept certain constraints andrestraints and discipline and
whatnot in order to to flourishas human beings, to reach our
full potential as Human beings,our society has moved away from
that understanding of freedomand has really moved to an
understanding of freedom wherewe are. We see anything outside
of us as holding us back. Sowe've got to cast off the
constraints that might befoisted on us from our parents
(18:36):
or the previous generation orchurch rules and regulations or
what it might be. So wedeveloped. So one of the
questions that we developed, andthis has got that counter
cultural element, is, what isfreedom? And then the answer is
true. Freedom is submission toGod. Freedom is not casting off
all restraints and pursuingwhatever we want. It is
embracing the right restraintsand aligning our wants with
(18:59):
God's will so we can pursue whatis true and good and beautiful.
So that's the answer. There.
It's basically, and there's,there's elements in there of
Jesus and John eight, talkingabout how the sun will set you
free, but it's through followinghis way, If you abide, if you
continue on in His Word. Youknow that that he he's talking
about a freedom that comesthrough following which, in our
day, is so counter cultural,because, I mean, we're all about
(19:22):
I'm going to follow my owndream, not anyone else's dream.
I'm going to live my truth. I'mnot going to take anyone else's
truth, you know, like we, we,we. I'm no one's going to tell
me who I am or what to do. I'mfree to be whatever I want to
be. Jesus comes on and says,that's actually not what's going
to free you. That's going toactually just enslave you to
your own desires and and thesins that you have in your
(19:43):
heart. Jesus's way is a freedom,but it's a freedom through
following.
Joshua Johnson (19:49):
It's so counter cultural because it's really
difficult for people tounderstand it like, because it's
been so ingrained that freedomis a free for all, like, it's
just like, what? Ever we want todo that, and then our truth
comes from inside of ourourselves, that we're going to
decide who we are, where we'regoing, what we're doing. It's so
(20:09):
hard to understand that thatthis kind of freedom leads to
flourishing. I don't, and aflourishing life. And so I don't
even I maybe in America, youknow, if you're thinking of you
know, you as a missionary,you're trying to contextualize
something in Romania and make itso that people can understand a
different language. There may bea, I don't know, different word
(20:32):
that needs to be used in inAmerica so that we can start to
understand the concept thatJesus is talking about what true
freedom is, and I don't knowwhat that word is, but there may
be something that we have toredefine, something so we could
understand. Because I don'tthink Americans understand, even
(20:53):
when you say this is what it is,it's so hard to get it
Unknown (20:58):
well, and one of the reasons it's hard, I think, for
us to understand that concept offreedom is because a lot of a
lot of times, let's just behonest, we as Christians, people
in the church, sometimes theChristian life doesn't feel very
free. It doesn't feel freeing inpart, because our vision of God
is still of him as a, you know,a tyrannical task master who can
(21:20):
never be pleased, rather than asa father who's adopted us into
the family. That's that's athat's a challenge. I mean, this
goes again, going back to Jesusin John eight, Jesus not only
talks about being slaves to sin,but he talks about the
difference between the slave andthe son when they're in the
household, related to aninheritance. And I think a lot
of people, it's so easy for usto think I'm just going to do a
(21:44):
lot of good things and follow alot of religious rules so that I
can pay God off and then get myown freedom to do what I really
want, what Jesus would say wouldbe, first of all, that's just
another form of slavery, becausedoing whatever you want, apart
from what God's will is and WhatGod has designed you to be is
going to lead you into all sortsof conflicting, contradictory
(22:05):
desires. And then there's but,but, but it's the sadness to me
Joshua is that is the is that alot of religious people, a lot
of church goers, don't reallyunderstand the freedom that
Jesus is talking about here,either, because they they're
doing the right things in orderto earn their relationship with
God, or impress the right kindof people, or stay in the club
(22:27):
that they think that they're apart of, or, you know, and
that's what's sad is, I feellike so many, even professing
Christians, may be missing outon the freeing and flourishing
life that Jesus really has forus.
Joshua Johnson (22:37):
So what is the free and flourishing life like?
What is the what is flourishinglife with Jesus really look
like, if it's not just followingthe rules to get God's favor?
Yeah.
Unknown (22:48):
So it is. It is through following his way, in submitting
to God, letting him shape andreshape our desires. But, but
it's not in a way of followinghim to sort of then do what we
want. It's a way of aligning ourhearts to what actually our
hearts deepest desire is anyway,which is union with Christ,
union with God, recognizing thatat the end of the day, I like to
(23:10):
compare it to learning alanguage, in part, because this
is my with my cross culturalmissions experience, there are
constraints around that to learnanother language, to be able to
speak it freely, fluently. YouYou do have to submit to
grammatical exercises, to thestructure of the language, to
vocabulary. You have to you haveto give away the freedom of
(23:34):
never looking silly. Yeah,because you always look silly,
you're gonna look silly likethere's no way to become fluent
in a language and not fall onyour face in front of other
people multiple times on the inthe process. You know, there are
certain things you have to giveup, but the beauty on the other
side of that is a fluency and afreedom to express yourself in
another language. It's justthat's beautiful. I think of the
Christian faith in terms of, insome ways, it's a grammar it's a
(23:56):
way of life. It's also a grammarbook. It's also it's a map of
some sense, there's all sorts ofways that you can think about
what the Christian life is like,and when you really understand
the scope of what Jesus isoffering here, there's so much
freedom in feeling like I'm notchained to my past, to my sins,
(24:18):
to my failures, to my flaws. I'mlooking ahead to the day when,
on the last day, I won't be lessme. I won't be less trevan, but
I will be most Trevin and mostlike Jesus, because that's who
he created me, but he didn'twant he didn't, he didn't. He
doesn't want us all to beclones. He wants everyone in
(24:40):
their own uniqueness, to shine aspotlight on his glory. So I
will be the most myself and themost like Christ. That's what
that's what the goal is. And soeverything that we do now is an
anticipation of that that's
Joshua Johnson (24:52):
so good. And I think that, you know, one of the
things that helps me is I thinkthat the way of the world,
that's not the way of Jesus, isreally just a. Facade, and it's
not the real thing, like, it'sthe so the way of the world is
not real. Where we're walking inthe world and we're looking
around, and we think that thisis the real thing, but it's not.
And if we lift our veils, and wecould actually see what is
(25:15):
underneath this facade thatwe're living in, that what that
does for me is that, oh, I canlive in the way of Jesus and
whatever is coming at me fromculture, or they're trying to
shape me in different things.
I'm like, that's just not real.
That's not the right, like, it'sjust not real. It's just a fake
(25:36):
thing that people are trying todo to control or to get
something. And I start to tofeel sad for everybody is like,
let's look and see the realthing.
Unknown (25:49):
Back to like, who the real you is too. I mean,
sometimes I hear, I hearbelievers talk about how they I
think they see themselves as,oh, the stumbling, sinning
sinning Christian who just can'tever get their act together, and
that that's the real me and likeno no sin is is not you at your
most authentic sin is actuallywhen you sin, you're going
(26:12):
against the authenticity thatyou have in Jesus, what God has
declared over you, when he hasdeclared that you are His child
and you in whom he is wellpleased. You know, once God
saves you, when if you sin, youknow after salvation, as we all
do, you're actually sinningagainst your newfound identity.
You're not You're not moreyourself when you sin, you're
less yourself. It's adiminishing of humanity. It's
(26:34):
not making you you know moreyourself. And so to really be
authentic in the Christianunderstanding, not authentic in
the sense of, hey, just accepteveryone. Just accept me as I
am. Tell me my warts arebeautiful, like we kind of have
in the world. No, when you stepinto your Christian identity and
you really want to be authenticas a Christian, then in that
(26:55):
moment, it's the seeking ofholiness as the seeking of you
know, John Stott used to talkabout self denial as intrinsic
to the Christian life. But it'snot just the denying of yourself
and all of your desires as ifyou're just repressing and
squashing. It's a it's a denyingof what is untrue to you in
order to accept and be fulfilledby what God says is now true of
(27:19):
you. That's what self denial isit's always with that, that joy
on the other side is what it'sleading to.
Joshua Johnson (27:24):
If you look at at these 50 truths and these 50
questions that you have, whatwas one that was was hard for
you to write, that maybe youstruggled through it?
Unknown (27:36):
Oh, man. Well, there were a bunch that were harder,
that were hard to write. I youknow, as I'm as I'm looking
through some of them, some ofsome of it is just trying to fit
everything you want to say intoan answer. So, like, one of the
things, and I'm proud of how itcame together, but, goodness, it
was a long time getting there.
But one of them is, you know,like the question, what is the
(27:57):
Lord's Supper? You know, firstof all, we're writing for
people. We have a denominationaltradition, but we're trying to
write broadly, you know, fordifferent and a lot of different
denominations have differentviews of the supper, even
different names for it, right?
You've got the Lord's Supper,communion, mass, you know,
Eucharist, whatever. But we wantit. So we wanted to nod toward
(28:19):
all of these different anglesthat coming at the Lord's
Supper. And so this is the waywe got it. I'll just give the
answer if you're if you're okaywith it, the Lord's Supper is
communion with King Jesus at Histable, with his people. We eat
the bread and drink the cup,giving thanks for his body and
blood strengthened for serviceby this foretaste of the feast
(28:39):
to come. So basically, in thatone answer, you've got communion
with King Jesus and with otherpeople, you know, the body of
Christ, together, eating thebread, drinking the cup, giving
thanks. That's Eucharist. Oh,that's the Eucharist for his
body and blood strengthened forservice. That's the sacramental
understanding of that there is astrengthening grace that comes
(29:00):
through the Lord's Supper whenit's taken by faith and by the
foretaste of the feast to come.
So strengthen for serviceconnects to the mass. Mass
actually means sending, youknow, that is, it's
strengthening for the Christianlife. And then foretaste of the
feast to come is when Jesussays, you know, not only on the
Are we looking back in a sort ofmemorial way, but we're looking
ahead to when he drinks of thevine in his kingdom. We look
(29:23):
forward and we continue to dothis, as Paul says, until He
comes. So you have thateschatological that, that end
times element as well. But thatwas a hard one, because we had
so much we wanted to say aboutthe Lord's Supper, but, you
know, we tried to pack it intothat concise statement that
would just be each word reallyfull of truth. So
Joshua Johnson (29:44):
how does the focus and a knowledge of the
global church around the worldand what global Christianity is
doing help you in ways, whereyou're you're writing and you
could actually see thesedifferent perspectives. Was in
things on the core tenets of theChristian faith.
Unknown (30:04):
You know, it was great, as we were working on, on the
the final drafts of this lastyear, I got to attend the
Lausanne Congress for worldevangelization, which met in
Seoul. And I think is about thelargest group of of Evangelicals
worldwide that have gathered. Imean, it was more than 5000
from, you know, so manycountries. I mean, it was just
incredible. And wife
Joshua Johnson (30:24):
and I said, we're not spending that much
money to go, but it would havebeen been great to be back in
Korea. But
Unknown (30:33):
it was, you know, it was my second time to Korea, but
my first time in Korea and at aconvention center with that many
people, that many languages thatmy favorite day, I think, was
the one where everyone, a lot ofpeople, chose to wear
traditional dress from theirfrom their countries. And it,
you know that just the variety Iwas reflecting on it afterwards,
(30:56):
the worship services as well, inmultiple languages and with so
many people, just every tribeand tongue just represented
there. You know, it made mehomesick for a home I've never
been to, basically. And so oneof the passions that I've had in
terms of trying to connect withbelievers in other parts of the
world is they strengthen me.
They strengthen my faith. Theygive me perspective on things
(31:20):
that are happening in society. II like to tell people that you
need the global church in orderto keep your sanity. And here's
what you find out, the church isa mess everywhere, but it's not
the same mess, so it's justdifferent parts of the church
are healthier in certain areasand more. And so we have gifts
(31:41):
in North America to offer theglobal church, but churches in
other parts of the world havegifts to to offer us, and we
need each other in order tolike, recognize what's what can,
can I? Can I distinguish betweenwhat's the core and what's the
crazy, like, what's the core ofthe Christian faith? And then
whatever crazy stuff's happeningaround me in culture, like if I
(32:02):
can, if I can, stay connected tobelievers in other parts of the
world, to know really what thecore is, why, why Christians are
dying for their faith or beingpersecuted for their faith, that
it gives you a level ofstability, and it also opens up
avenues for just seeing moreinterpretations of the
Scriptures and how to reallywrestle with the text that is
really beautiful.
Joshua Johnson (32:24):
I was, I think it was, maybe it was last year
or the year before I was I wasapplying for a job, having
conversation with somebody thatI may wanted to work for. I had
a belief. I have a core beliefthat we need to learn from the
global body of Christ in NorthAmerica. And they said, Yes,
(32:45):
absolutely. But the our audiencedoesn't really want to hear from
the global church. They justwant to hear from North
Americans. And so we get ourlistenership is low. Things are,
you know, so how? How can wehelp people in North America get
a more global perspective, if,even if they don't think they
(33:08):
need it or want it,
Unknown (33:10):
if I had the answer to that question, your podcast
would be better. My podcastwould be better. I mean, this is
a, I mean, this is a greatquestion. One of the things that
the President, Michael Oh ofLausanne, said that sticks out
to me is that the four of theworst words for Christianity
are, I don't need you. Andwhenever As believers, we think
(33:36):
we're fine on our own, with ourown little communities, whether
it's an individual who's like, Idon't need the church, or
whether it's a church that saysI don't need any other churches,
or whether it's churches in asociety that say I don't need
churches from outside of thissociety, the posture of I don't
need you goes directly againstwhat the Apostle Paul says when
(33:59):
he talks about One Body manymembers. Now, obviously, Paul's
talking there, particularlyabout the congregation, but the
application of that does extendout, and it's, it's a strong
application from Paul's ownministry. He's telling, you
know, the Corinthians, you knowwhy, to be generous to these
other groups that are sufferingin another part of the of the
(34:21):
known world at the time so thatI don't need you. Mentality is
is so deadly because it's it'sbecause it's false. We do. We do
need each other. We mayfrustrate each other at times.
We may get annoyed with eachother, may get mad at each
other, may disagree with eachother, but we do need the
(34:42):
witness of the of the churcharound the world. I've tried to
in my own preaching and teachingand writing, and probably not
done it enough. I have tried toto pepper into my preaching and
teaching in sermons, quotes fromor stories from the church
around the world, also theChurch throughout history,
because we also. Need the peoplethat have gone before us. We
it's not like we are the be all,end all of Christianity as just
(35:07):
simply a way of making itnormal, normalizing this, this
reality where I don't have totell the church all the time we
belong to a, you know, traditionthat goes back 2000 years, or I
don't have to tell the churchall the time we belong to a
worldwide community of faith. Wejust show it in what we sing and
who we hear from, when we talkabout missions, when we hear
(35:29):
from believers in other parts ofthe world, I will say there's
one thing that's on my heart onthis, and I've been preparing a
column about it, one thing thatstands out to me is a lot of
worship music in the world isbasically transported from the
United States and translated.
And there's a lot of beauty inthat, because, because people
can sing the same songs, andthere's a connection musically.
(35:52):
But I My concern is in some andI know this from the Romanian
context the work of Diane doorsor Nicola diviano and others
there. There's rich hymnity andworship in other parts of the
world that come from frommoments of persecution suffering
particular challenges related tothe context of whatever that
(36:13):
church is. There are expressionsof worship and praise that come
up in other parts of the worldthat I think the American church
would benefit from. So I wouldlove to see more, rather than
just sort of the American churchand Western churches, exporting
our songs to the rest of theworld. I'd love to be able to
see that wave come back towardus as well, so that we can
(36:34):
really sing the songs of thosebelievers in other parts of the
world,
Joshua Johnson (36:41):
we rarely see that crossover coming back into
the United States. I think, youknow, waymaker was one that was
Nigeria. And, you know, there'sa few that that crossover, but
you're right, it's mostlyAmerican songs going throughout
the world. And man, you know, asI lived in the Middle East, and
I'm, I'm going to a church in inArabic, and we're singing songs
(37:05):
that, like I grew up with inAmerica, all these English
songs, but they're translatedinto Arabic. I'm like, they feel
good to me. But like, don't youhave your own songs? And they
do. There's a few of their own,which was beautiful as well, but
there were so many that werelike, Hey, we love the American
songs. We're just going totranslate them for us. And
Unknown (37:25):
I want to like, and again, I want music to minister
to whoever music ministers do.
There's no right and wrong here.
It's just, if you know, youknow, if the if President Trump
wants to talk about tradedeficits, can we talk about
worship deficits between thecountries? And I feel like we,
we we export a whole lot of ourstuff, and I just think we would
be as blessed and strengthenedif the churches around the world
(37:47):
and these wonderful songs andhymns that come about, if we
could benefit from them as well.
Joshua Johnson (37:52):
Yeah, there's, there's three things that you
talked about in thisconversation so far that I think
is going to help some peoplethink about our Gospel way, the
catechism of who Jesus is, andthe story and one you said, I
mean, while you were reading it,you were reading King Jesus part
of communion. You talked aboutchanging allegiance in baptism,
(38:15):
like so allegiance was reallyimportant. And I think that also
goes with freedom, freedom tofollow the ways of Jesus. What
when we see Jesus as King, andwhat does that mean for us? And
why is he King, and how doesthat help us live a Christian
life, knowing that we haveallegiance to King Jesus?
Unknown (38:38):
Yeah, I think this is, it's a crucial question. In
fact, there's, there's been longstanding debates, actually going
back, you know, the wholeLordship, salvation debates and
things like that. You know, canyou have Jesus as Savior, not
have Him as Lord and what? Now,I think it's vital that we see
Jesus as the Crucified King,because that's the way the
(38:59):
Gospels present him. That's theway the apostles talk about him.
What's challenging for us in ourday is we don't really have the
notion of kingship like thatanymore. I was just finishing a
book by about Thomas Cranmer,the reformer during the
Reformation period. He's the onewho drafted the First Book of
Common Prayer in the becamereally the pivotal cornerstone
(39:23):
of the English language, butalso of the Anglican tradition
in particular. And one of thethings that's fascinating about
that whole story, it's verymessy. It's very complicated.
What's going on betweenProtestants and Catholics at the
time Cranmer zone shiftingviews. Some of your listeners
may know that Cranmer initiallyrecanted his Protestant beliefs
(39:45):
under Queen Mary, and thenrecanted his recantation in the
university church in Oxford,they dragged him out by his
beard to the place where theyburned him, and he put his hand
in the fire. First that he haddone to sign the you know that
he had signed the Rec. He saidthe hand that offends will be
the hand that burns first. Imean, it's just fascinating
story. But Cranmer iscomplicated in part because he
(40:07):
has this, this such a high viewof kingship that it's basically
like, well, whatever King Henrythe Eighth however many wives
were in now, whatever King Henrysays is gotta go. And then he
the same thing with King Edward.
And then, really, he's doing thesame thing with with Queen Mary,
but, but he has this mindset of,I am the subject to the king,
and I do what the king says,even to the to the point of, at
(40:29):
times, you know, fudging on hisdoctrine, or having to change
things here and there. Now welook at that and we think, well,
that's just part of us thinks,you know he should have defied
the king. You know he shouldhave but, but another part of me
thinks there is, there's akernel of truth in what, in the
way that we should look, not atearthly kings, but certainly the
(40:49):
way we should look at KingJesus, is that no matter what,
our loyalty is to him, our trustis in him personally. We, we, we
trust him. We want to obey Him.
We, you know, I Henry Blackabyused to say it's an oxymoron to
say No Lord, you can't say noLord. Like, if you say no,
(41:10):
you're, you're, you're notletting him be Lord, you know,
like it's a it's an oxymoron.
Even put those two wordstogether, and I think, I think
it's very important for us,especially in a world where we
don't have a monarchy, we don'thave that Cranmer whole idea is
just foreign to us. But torecognize, when it comes to the
Lord, when it comes to our king,he calls us to follow in his
way, and we're to drop our netsand follow, leave our tax
(41:34):
collector booth and go, youknow, that's that's the vision.
I
Joshua Johnson (41:40):
know that there's a lot of debates with
savior and Lord, but I just knowthat my life has looked
drastically different when Isaid Yes, Lord, and I made Jesus
Lord, and I said, Whatever yousay, I will say yes, and my life
has been amazing since then, andI struggled a lot to say, Okay,
(42:00):
I'm doing so much for you, God,Aren't you pleased with me? And
then I shifted and go, Okay,Jesus, I'll just follow you, and
you tell me, and I will say,yes. And man, life has been so
much better since then. I mean,it's not perfect, of course,
because no Christian life isperfect, but it's been so much
better. And so, yeah, givingallegiance to King Jesus is man.
(42:23):
It is the way of life, the wayof flourishing, and it is an
incredible life that you couldhave when you actually say yes,
and you make Jesus Lord,
Unknown (42:33):
and it is the way of freedom, too. That's the other
thing, because Jesus knows how.
Jesus knows your heart betterthan you do, right? So when he
tells you to do something, evenif it goes against what you
want, and you know, and when yousay, it makes life better, we
have to qualify that, because,
Joshua Johnson (42:51):
you know, make it more
Unknown (42:52):
comfortable. No, it doesn't make it easier, and
doesn't make it like. It's like,but it is better in the sense of
this is what you were made for.
And so you feel that even thoughit may be harder, it may be a
harder life. You know, I thinksaying yes to Jesus will
complicate your life more thansimplify it, usually, because
it's going to lead to all kindsof other things. But doing that,
(43:12):
but walking his way with him,and he doesn't just tell us to
walk the way alone. It's withhim. I think that's, that's what
makes all the difference.
Joshua Johnson (43:21):
So if you could talk to people pick up the
gospel way catechism, how wouldyou envision people using this?
How do you want to see thisutilized within the church?
What? What can people do to toimplement this as part of the
life of the church and life ofdiscipleship for people as
they're following Jesus. So
Unknown (43:42):
we designed it to be flexible, and so that it would,
it would be able to really fitsome different ways of using it.
But I'll tell you what we whatwe would love to see the most.
There are 50 questions andanswers with some brief
commentary, some reflectionquestions, discussion questions,
things like that. So that'swhere that's, that's what it is.
So, you know, thinking through achurch, I think the best way to
(44:07):
get the most use out of thiswould be, you're going to take a
year with a group, and you'regoing to, basically, you've got
50 questions and answers. Giveyourself a couple of weeks off
here and there. Maybe you bunchup a couple of weeks if you need
to, if you got vacations, butyou go through, you know, one a
week, and it becomes the thefocus of your memorization and
your discussion. That's one wayto do this. We have a kids
(44:31):
version coming out next yearthat's simplified so that in
that scenario, it would be greatif you know the church is doing
this all at once, or if parentsare doing it on their own and
doing it with their kids aswell, the kids are learning them
the easier version. The parentsare learning the harder version.
But they're both, you know,they're, it's, it's meant to be
memorizable. I mean, we had, youknow, I one of our I had had
(44:53):
some, some people with realartistic sensibility come behind
us here and help us to craft itin such a way. To make it flow.
And Michael card, the singersongwriter, gave us some
suggestions on that front. Sokind of stylistically. So I
think that's the main way. Butthen, you know, there are other
other groups are going to belike, Oh, we want to do this in
(45:14):
seven weeks, seven questions aweek, you know, whatever. You
know, that's fine too. That'llwork. And then if someone just
wants to do it devotionally, onea day or one every few days, to,
kind of like, memorize, or justnot even memorize, but just go
through it devotionally to kindof get a tune up or a refresher
on Christian truth, but in a waythat has that eye toward, hey,
how does this make me stand outin the world? Like, how does
(45:36):
this make me live Jesus's way asopposed to the world's way? I
think it would be richlybeneficial, even for an
individual working through itand the discussion questions on
their
Joshua Johnson (45:45):
own. Trevin, I have a couple of quick questions
I like to ask at the end. One,if you go back to your 21 year
old self, what advice would yougive? Oh, wow,
Unknown (45:53):
I got to think about when I was 21 Oh, I would tell
my 21 year old self you're gonnayou're gonna face some setbacks
and challenges anddisappointments in the death of
some dreams. Trust God throughthat, because he knows what he's
doing. I would tell my 21 yearold self that, because that's
been multiple times since thenwhen that's been the case and
(46:17):
there's some tears when a dreamdies. But you just got to know
the Lord's got it, and theLord's plan will make more
sense. Generally, it has for me.
Anyway, with a little more timeand a little more perspective,
you look back and say, God,thanks for not answering that
prayer. And so I just, I tell my21 year old self, just chill out
when you get to those moments.
(46:40):
You
Joshua Johnson (46:40):
know, anything you've been reading or watching
lately you could recommend,
Unknown (46:44):
oh, you know, I was just, I just mentioned that
Thomas Cramer biography by dearmaid McCulloch, that was a
fascinating read and verycomplicated, because it's, it's
very complicated era. But Ireally, I really do love history
and biography, and I recently,I've been making my way through
(47:05):
Robert Caro's massive volumes onthe life of Lyndon B Johnson,
which LBJ is not a presidentthat people look back and be
like, oh, I want to read fourvolumes about Lyndon Johnson,
but Robert Caro is just anAmazing biographer. How he
tells, how he gives the detailsabout what's going on,
contextually at the time andwhatnot. And so I've done three
(47:28):
out of the four that are alreadyout. I'm hoping that Robert Caro
lives long enough to finish thelast one, but they're, they're
really excellent, and now Iunderstand what all the fuss is
about, because I've heard peopletalk about those for a long
time, and they really are anachievement. Wow,
Joshua Johnson (47:43):
that's great.
Well, the Gospel way catechismwill be out wherever you get
books, and you can use that, buythem for your church to help
people go through this. Good Isthere anywhere else that you'd
like to point people to? Yeah,you can just
Unknown (47:59):
go to gospelwaycatechism.com if you're
interested in it, it'll show youthere's a workbook with it as
well. So it's, it's just, it'sgot some couple of videos that
explain it. But yeah, we'd lovefor anyone to check it out for
their own benefit or for theirchurches benefit. And we just,
our prayer is that it'll just bea good discipleship tool to help
the church, you know, look alittle more like Jesus.
Excellent.
Joshua Johnson (48:20):
Well, Trevin, thank you for this conversation
to help us know what it lookslike to follow King Jesus in
this world, this crazy worldthat we live in, and thank you
for this great resource. Iappreciate the conversation.
Really had a good time talkingto you. So thanks so much. You
Unknown (48:40):
you.
Saying yes to Jesus will complicate your life more
than simplify it, usually,because it's going to lead to
all kinds of other things. Butdoing that, but walking his way
with him, and he doesn't justtell us to walk the way alone.
It's with him. I think that's,that's what makes all the
difference. You Joshua,
Joshua Johnson (00:28):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, what story
are we really living in we tellourselves stories about freedom
and success and identity all thetime. Some of them are cultural
scripts, the American dream,consumerism, individualism.
(00:50):
Others are deeply Christianstories of redemption and
resurrection. But often we don'trealize which one is actually
shaping us day by day. My guesttoday, Trevin wax, has spent his
life wrestling with thatquestion, from years in Romania
as a missionary to his recentwork on the gospel way
catechism, Trevin has beenasking, how do we help the
church not just know the truthsof the faith, but live into the
(01:12):
way of Jesus? In thisconversation, we explore
catechesis, not as a roteexercise, but as a counter
cultural practice, somethingthat pushes back on the false
stories of our age and roots usagain in the story of Scripture.
We talk about what true freedomis, why the church can't afford
to forget its global body, andhow discipleship is not just
about having the right answers,it's also about inhabiting the
(01:35):
WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFEtogether. So join us as we
rethink what it means to beformed as a disciple, and what
story we're really living insideof. Here is my conversation with
Trevin wax. Trevin, welcome toshifting culture. Excited to
have you on. Thanks for joiningme. Thank you so much for having
me. Glad to be here. Yeah, I'dlove to just know where some of
(01:58):
your passion for rooting peoplein truth, the way of the Gospel,
the story of the Bible, and rootpeople in there. Where does that
come from? Why is this somethingthat you're passionate about?
Unknown (02:10):
No, I think this is, for me, it's all tied up with
discipleship, with wanting towalk in the way of Jesus and to
see the church look more likehim. For me, that's all tangled
up with mission work as well. Ispent five years overseas doing
mission work in Romania when Iwas a college student, when I
was doing cross cultural missionwork, one of the things that
(02:33):
that opportunity affords you isthe ability to get outside of
your own culture for an extendedperiod of time, to learn another
language, to to learn to inhabita different set of sensibilities
and and then when you come backto the to the society you left,
you're changed, and you havedifferent set of eyes, because
(02:55):
there are certain things thatare taken for granted in a
society that you you start to beable to to see and so. So one of
my passions for the last 20years really has been, you know,
wanting to see churches inAmerica look more like Christ,
be rooted, grounded in thefaith, not just a faith that's
palatable for 21st Centurywesternized North Americans and
(03:19):
individualistic faith, but onethat actually does is rooted in
the scriptures, of course, andin the great tradition of the
church. And so that's reallywhere this comes. It's really,
for me, this passion for truthis connected to a passion for
discipleship.
Joshua Johnson (03:33):
We're supposed to be disciples of Jesus, right?
That's right. That's the point.
And be a disciple of Jesus. Soas you're looking this gospel
way, catechism that you'rebringing, there's 50 truths in
there, and root us in the story.
What is catechesis? What iscatechism, and what was the
(03:53):
tradition in the early churchlike when it comes to
catechesis? Yeah,
Unknown (03:57):
catechesis is one of those big, scary words that
just, I mean, it sounds scary inEnglish, but it just, it simply
means instruction. You know,it's basically, it's the old
word for instruction. Theancient church actually had this
practice of before someone wasbaptized, and you had to
understand, like in those earlycenturies of the church. I mean,
baptism was a here, sometimesit's taken very flippantly or
(04:17):
very without the level ofseriousness at times, because
there, I mean, it was really a,a saying goodbye to your old
life and welcoming in your newlife. And the church welcoming
you into the to the fellowship.
And then there being, you know,it was a, it was a moment of
allegiance, declaration ofwhere, where your allegiance
lies. And so, because of that,often on special days throughout
(04:42):
the year in some of the earlycenturies of the church, for
example, Easter Sunday andothers, those would be big
baptism days. But in the lead upto that, they would actually
take, they called themcatechumens. They would take
people who were wanting tobecome Christians and join the
church. They would take. Themthrough a process where they
really, truly, deeply at thefoundational level were to
(05:03):
understand what it is they'reconfessing, what it is they are
pledging allegiance to what doesit mean to actually be a
follower of Jesus and then theywould be baptized? So that's the
ancient church tradition. Duringthe period of the Reformation,
there was another explosion ofcatechisms, catechesis, that
happened in part because theProtestant reformers were were
wanting to react to and theywere there. They were pushing
(05:27):
against some of what they saw asthe corruptions and the
accretions that had accumulatedin the Roman Catholic church at
the time. And so they weresetting forth a distinctively
Protestant vision understandingof the Christian faith. And so
you see confessions of faith,catechisms, especially you call
a lot of times. We call thosethe classic catechisms, but it's
(05:49):
always been present in thechurch. There have been seasons
where there's been like arevival of it, but this question
and answer format where you havevery concise answers to specific
questions. It's been with thechurch for a long time. It's a
tool of discipleship, and it'sone that I think we shouldn't
lose sight of.
Joshua Johnson (06:11):
Have we lost sight of it? And what do you
think discipleship has lookedlike when we have lost sight of
Unknown (06:16):
it? Yeah, I you know, I think in some circles of the
church we have. I sometimes whenI when a question like that
comes up, because there are alot of pockets of the church, a
lot of pockets of the church,not just in North America, but
globally. I mean, I, you know, Ifeel like sometimes we give
short shrift to what's happeningin the global church when we
think of catechesis, butoverall, I do think that there
(06:38):
has been a move away from thatas well. That's just wrote, it's
just ritualistic. Some peoplewould say, oh, it's all
intellectual. It's just learningthe right answers, not really
living into them, which I'vealways been, these have always
been criticisms of catechism,catechisms. And no one, I don't
think even people that arepromoting catechisms would ever
say it's the be all, end all ofthe Christian faith, the one
(06:59):
solution that will fit, youknow, it's one tool in the
toolbox to help form and shapeyour mind and hopefully your
heart, so that you're more intune with what the Scriptures
teach, that you sort of liveinto that scriptural storyline
and then are able to live outyour role as someone who is
(07:20):
participating In this. You knowwhat? Kevin Vanhoozer would say,
that the drama of doctrine, thedivine drama of redemption, that
that we see in the scriptures.
Joshua Johnson (07:28):
I was just reading something from from
Leonard sweet, from Lynn sweet,he said that identity, we don't
have identity unless it's rootedin story. Like the only way we
could find our identity iswithin story. So if people
really aren't catechized to thestory, if we don't know that the
macro story like beginning toend a lot of times, some people,
(07:50):
they just, they're going tochurch, they're getting, you
know, pieces here and there, andthey haven't actually been
catechized into the the mainstory, so they can move with
shifts and changes of culture orother things, because the
identity is not there. What doyou think the the macro story,
(08:12):
like seeing all of this does forus as followers of Jesus? How
does that help us?
Unknown (08:18):
Yeah, no, that's it.
That's so crucial what you justlaid out there, because I think
it's very easy for people, evenpeople who attend church, like
you just mentioned, it's veryeasy for people who attend
church to be living out of adifferent story with the Bibles
or religious practice of somesort just tacked on. It's very
easy, for example, to live with,basically within the story of
(08:42):
the American dream, you knowthat the purpose of life is to
acquire more wealth, have a goodreputation, live comfortably.
That, you know, basically theconsumeristic story of life.
It's very easy. And then just tosort of attach God on to that,
you know, for a little spiritualsprinkling of transcendence on
your life, you know when youfeel like you need that. And I
(09:04):
think that's very, very easy,very common, very possible. And
it's not that's not unique toour era. Maybe the American
Dream part is more than otherparts than other centuries of
Christian history. But this ideathat you're, you're living
according to a false story, andnot the true story of the world
is told by the scriptures. It'ssomething that the church always
(09:26):
has to wrestle with, and thatChristians have to have to have
to grapple with it. Catechesishelps with that. It doesn't
necessarily solve that, becausesome of the some of the
catechisms that are out thereare not really all about the
story. They're really just aboutpoints of doctrine, but they
don't have the story ofredemption as sort of the
overarching, very clearlyunderstood thing. And so that's
(09:48):
something with this resourcewe're trying to rectify at some
level. But the reason why itmakes a difference is we want
people living according to thestory as told by Jesus. Because
the story of our world isunfolded from Genesis to
Revelation. People to understandtheir need to be in the story.
You know, I heard I was just ata Preaching Conference in
(10:08):
Alabama, and I got to give aresponse to Alistair McGrath
from who's well known, you know,professor at Oxford, was once an
atheist and has written a greatbiography of CS Lewis and
whatnot, and he used the examplethat of CS Lewis's Narnia story.
You know, The Lion, the Witchand the Wardrobe. When that?
When the Pevensey children firstget to Narnia, they have to
(10:29):
decide which story is right? Isthe White Witch really the the
queen of the realm, or is is Hasshe? Is she a usurper in Aslan,
the true King of Narnia, iscoming back one day, three of
the kids adopt into one of thestories, buy into one of the
stories. One of them goes withthe other story. But they at
(10:49):
some level, then they have tofigure out, not only what story
am I living in, you have toanswer that question, but as
Alistair MacIntyre, thephilosopher, talked about, I
can't answer the question, Whatam I supposed to do until I
answer the further, the formerquestion of, what story am I a
part of, of what story am I in?
(11:10):
And I think that's crucial forChristians if we want them to
live like Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (11:14):
And it seems to me, if I'm looking at AG,
culture at the moment, is wedon't know what story we're
living in. And so there are somany ways to go about doing
something, because we're like,we're actually being formed into
something else, or being formedin the ways of culture or the
world and in other ways. And sothis is, I mean, it's important
(11:37):
that we get the story. And wecould see that one of the things
you said earlier was there wassome criticism with catechism
when it's just really abouttruth and head knowledge and
doesn't get into the way. At thevery beginning of your book, you
said, Hey, we want the gospelway catechism, but we believe
that Jesus is the Way, the Truthand the Life. And when I look at
(11:59):
way truth and life, I actuallylook and not just see truth or
the received doctrine and truth,but I say, oh, there is a way, a
way of living, and then lifewith community, with others,
like we're living as a life. Howcan we use something like this,
the catechisms, and then make itsomething where we could
(12:21):
actually see some holisticdiscipleship, where it does
impact some of the ways that welive and we embody Jesus, and
then the life that we live withother believers.
Unknown (12:33):
Yeah, I think that's a really important point you're
making, that you can't you can'tseparate way truth and life, not
not and you can't separate themand be faithful to the vision
that Jesus has for us. I thinkone way that a catechism can
help in more than one category,rather than just the truth
category, is that if the truthsare presented in such a way as
(12:55):
they push against the commonsense wisdom of the world, or
sort of the the ways on offer inour world, then at least there's
a better shot at Christians, whoare, you know, internalizing
that truth, articulating thattruth, maybe even memorizing
that truth, if there's that,that edge where the truth that
they're memorizing is isspecifically and intentionally
(13:18):
pushing against some of the waysof the world that would draw us
in one way or another, maybe tugat our hearts here, pull us
there, make us drift in someway, shift in ways with culture
that would be inappropriate towhat the Bible teaches. Then I
think at least there's, thereyou're there's a wrestling with
the truth where it's not I'mjust memorizing doctrinal facts,
(13:40):
but I'm actually internalizingtruth that I know is going to
make me stand out and going tolead me to live in a different
way. And then if you do this incommunity with other people, and
you have the good discussionsthat happen, and they're robust
conversations about, what doesit what does this look like,
fleshed out, not just arguedout, but fleshed out in real
life, you know, in small groups,in communities and churches
(14:01):
whatnot, then I think you have abetter shot at seeing a more
holistic wealth, rounded tool ofdiscipleship, like a catechism
having some fruit.
Joshua Johnson (14:11):
So then what does that look like? Take me
into someone that maybe willfacilitate this catechism within
a church. What makes for a goodfacilitator to help people walk
through these things and thenwrestle with it so it actually
impacts their everyday life andnot just receive doctrinal
truth. What's a goodfacilitator?
Unknown (14:31):
Yeah, good. A good facilitator first. I mean, the
the best teachers are areteaching out of the overflow of
their own passion. So if we'recalling it facilitation
teachers, modelingapprenticeship, whatever we want
to call it, at the end of theday, that facilitator has got to
have the passion that, hey,this, this thing that we're
(14:52):
learning really does matter. Notonly matter for getting the
answer right, but also matterfor for how we live. So if it's,
oh, I. Of the overflow of theirpassion. That's the first and
most important key. You know,you hand up any kind of
curriculum, book and workbook tosomeone, and if it's just like,
oh yeah, I guess we're goingthrough this now, you know,
well, the group's gonna feel thesame way, you know, like they're
(15:15):
gonna, they're gonna rise to thelevel of the passion of the
leader in that situation. But agood facilitator, I think, has
passion for the for the truthsbeing presented. Is teaching
leading out of the overflow, butat the same time modeling for
the group. Hey, this is how youreally dig into this. This whole
week, you're going to focus onone question. There's a little
(15:36):
bit of commentary. You got somescriptures there you can read,
but you're going to focus on onequestion. Go over it every day.
This week, we're going to comeback, and I want all the, not
just the discussion questions inthe book, but anything has been
prompted by your own workingthrough this question and some
of those scriptures. Bring thatto the table. Let's put it on
the table, and let's, let'sdiscuss it. There's a lot of
good learning that happens inthat back and forth where you
(15:59):
know because the truth should,it should only be
countercultural, and that itmakes people in the world feel
uncomfortable. We it should makeus as Christians feel
uncomfortable. I mean, Jesus hada lot to say to religious
people, just to, you know, topeople out outside the faith, so
to speak. So. So I think lettingthe truth work on you over the
(16:19):
week and then coming together asa community to talk about
whatever's come up, whateveryou've been thinking, prompting
real life conversations anddiscussions where this would be
applied, how it would beapplied. I think that's really
key for a great groupexperience. And most people, if
you ask them, what have beentheir best group experiences,
(16:40):
they'll say, Well, I had thisone teacher, or this facility or
this leader who was just amazingand passionate. They'll say
that, but at the same time,they'll talk about the
discussions they had.
Joshua Johnson (16:50):
You're right, and I think it's the
discussions, the passion of theteacher, the facilitator, when
you were thinking about writingthis, you and and Thomas, as
you're walking through the thiscatechism, and you're saying,
okay, maybe the the the world,the culture, is shaping us in a
way where it's it's not likeChrist, and we want to help
(17:13):
believers be shaped like Christand look like Christ. What's one
story from culture that has beenshaping people that you wanted
to help root people in the truthand the way of Jesus that is
counter to the way of culture.
Unknown (17:31):
I love that question because it brings me. That
brings me to one of my favoritequestions to talk about. We,
because this is a catechism thathas a counter cultural element
to it. We we develop somequestions that are not in the
traditional catechisms. They'renot and one of those that I, I
think I go back to again andagain as an example, is the
(17:51):
question about freedom. What isfreedom? It's in the in the
section about our identity andour purpose. But the reason why
I think we have to ask thisquestion is because in our
society today, we have movedaway from the ancient
understanding of freedom asbasically a freedom for becoming
a certain kind of person, whereit was like the freedom to
(18:13):
accept certain constraints andrestraints and discipline and
whatnot in order to to flourishas human beings, to reach our
full potential as Human beings,our society has moved away from
that understanding of freedomand has really moved to an
understanding of freedom wherewe are. We see anything outside
of us as holding us back. Sowe've got to cast off the
constraints that might befoisted on us from our parents
(18:36):
or the previous generation orchurch rules and regulations or
what it might be. So wedeveloped. So one of the
questions that we developed, andthis has got that counter
cultural element, is, what isfreedom? And then the answer is
true. Freedom is submission toGod. Freedom is not casting off
all restraints and pursuingwhatever we want. It is
embracing the right restraintsand aligning our wants with
(18:59):
God's will so we can pursue whatis true and good and beautiful.
So that's the answer. There.
It's basically, and there's,there's elements in there of
Jesus and John eight, talkingabout how the sun will set you
free, but it's through followinghis way, If you abide, if you
continue on in His Word. Youknow that that he he's talking
about a freedom that comesthrough following which, in our
day, is so counter cultural,because, I mean, we're all about
(19:22):
I'm going to follow my owndream, not anyone else's dream.
I'm going to live my truth. I'mnot going to take anyone else's
truth, you know, like we, we,we. I'm no one's going to tell
me who I am or what to do. I'mfree to be whatever I want to
be. Jesus comes on and says,that's actually not what's going
to free you. That's going toactually just enslave you to
your own desires and and thesins that you have in your
(19:43):
heart. Jesus's way is a freedom,but it's a freedom through
following.
Joshua Johnson (19:49):
It's so counter cultural because it's really
difficult for people tounderstand it like, because it's
been so ingrained that freedomis a free for all, like, it's
just like, what? Ever we want todo that, and then our truth
comes from inside of ourourselves, that we're going to
decide who we are, where we'regoing, what we're doing. It's so
(20:09):
hard to understand that thatthis kind of freedom leads to
flourishing. I don't, and aflourishing life. And so I don't
even I maybe in America, youknow, if you're thinking of you
know, you as a missionary,you're trying to contextualize
something in Romania and make itso that people can understand a
different language. There may bea, I don't know, different word
(20:32):
that needs to be used in inAmerica so that we can start to
understand the concept thatJesus is talking about what true
freedom is, and I don't knowwhat that word is, but there may
be something that we have toredefine, something so we could
understand. Because I don'tthink Americans understand, even
(20:53):
when you say this is what it is,it's so hard to get it
Unknown (20:58):
well, and one of the reasons it's hard, I think, for
us to understand that concept offreedom is because a lot of a
lot of times, let's just behonest, we as Christians, people
in the church, sometimes theChristian life doesn't feel very
free. It doesn't feel freeing inpart, because our vision of God
is still of him as a, you know,a tyrannical task master who can
(21:20):
never be pleased, rather than asa father who's adopted us into
the family. That's that's athat's a challenge. I mean, this
goes again, going back to Jesusin John eight, Jesus not only
talks about being slaves to sin,but he talks about the
difference between the slave andthe son when they're in the
household, related to aninheritance. And I think a lot
of people, it's so easy for usto think I'm just going to do a
(21:44):
lot of good things and follow alot of religious rules so that I
can pay God off and then get myown freedom to do what I really
want, what Jesus would say wouldbe, first of all, that's just
another form of slavery, becausedoing whatever you want, apart
from what God's will is and WhatGod has designed you to be is
going to lead you into all sortsof conflicting, contradictory
(22:05):
desires. And then there's but,but, but it's the sadness to me
Joshua is that is the is that alot of religious people, a lot
of church goers, don't reallyunderstand the freedom that
Jesus is talking about here,either, because they they're
doing the right things in orderto earn their relationship with
God, or impress the right kindof people, or stay in the club
(22:27):
that they think that they're apart of, or, you know, and
that's what's sad is, I feellike so many, even professing
Christians, may be missing outon the freeing and flourishing
life that Jesus really has forus.
Joshua Johnson (22:37):
So what is the free and flourishing life like?
What is the what is flourishinglife with Jesus really look
like, if it's not just followingthe rules to get God's favor?
Yeah.
Unknown (22:48):
So it is. It is through following his way, in submitting
to God, letting him shape andreshape our desires. But, but
it's not in a way of followinghim to sort of then do what we
want. It's a way of aligning ourhearts to what actually our
hearts deepest desire is anyway,which is union with Christ,
union with God, recognizing thatat the end of the day, I like to
(23:10):
compare it to learning alanguage, in part, because this
is my with my cross culturalmissions experience, there are
constraints around that to learnanother language, to be able to
speak it freely, fluently. YouYou do have to submit to
grammatical exercises, to thestructure of the language, to
vocabulary. You have to you haveto give away the freedom of
(23:34):
never looking silly. Yeah,because you always look silly,
you're gonna look silly likethere's no way to become fluent
in a language and not fall onyour face in front of other
people multiple times on the inthe process. You know, there are
certain things you have to giveup, but the beauty on the other
side of that is a fluency and afreedom to express yourself in
another language. It's justthat's beautiful. I think of the
Christian faith in terms of, insome ways, it's a grammar it's a
(23:56):
way of life. It's also a grammarbook. It's also it's a map of
some sense, there's all sorts ofways that you can think about
what the Christian life is like,and when you really understand
the scope of what Jesus isoffering here, there's so much
freedom in feeling like I'm notchained to my past, to my sins,
(24:18):
to my failures, to my flaws. I'mlooking ahead to the day when,
on the last day, I won't be lessme. I won't be less trevan, but
I will be most Trevin and mostlike Jesus, because that's who
he created me, but he didn'twant he didn't, he didn't. He
doesn't want us all to beclones. He wants everyone in
(24:40):
their own uniqueness, to shine aspotlight on his glory. So I
will be the most myself and themost like Christ. That's what
that's what the goal is. And soeverything that we do now is an
anticipation of that that's
Joshua Johnson (24:52):
so good. And I think that, you know, one of the
things that helps me is I thinkthat the way of the world,
that's not the way of Jesus, isreally just a. Facade, and it's
not the real thing, like, it'sthe so the way of the world is
not real. Where we're walking inthe world and we're looking
around, and we think that thisis the real thing, but it's not.
And if we lift our veils, and wecould actually see what is
(25:15):
underneath this facade thatwe're living in, that what that
does for me is that, oh, I canlive in the way of Jesus and
whatever is coming at me fromculture, or they're trying to
shape me in different things.
I'm like, that's just not real.
That's not the right, like, it'sjust not real. It's just a fake
(25:36):
thing that people are trying todo to control or to get
something. And I start to tofeel sad for everybody is like,
let's look and see the realthing.
Unknown (25:49):
Back to like, who the real you is too. I mean,
sometimes I hear, I hearbelievers talk about how they I
think they see themselves as,oh, the stumbling, sinning
sinning Christian who just can'tever get their act together, and
that that's the real me and likeno no sin is is not you at your
most authentic sin is actuallywhen you sin, you're going
(26:12):
against the authenticity thatyou have in Jesus, what God has
declared over you, when he hasdeclared that you are His child
and you in whom he is wellpleased. You know, once God
saves you, when if you sin, youknow after salvation, as we all
do, you're actually sinningagainst your newfound identity.
You're not You're not moreyourself when you sin, you're
less yourself. It's adiminishing of humanity. It's
(26:34):
not making you you know moreyourself. And so to really be
authentic in the Christianunderstanding, not authentic in
the sense of, hey, just accepteveryone. Just accept me as I
am. Tell me my warts arebeautiful, like we kind of have
in the world. No, when you stepinto your Christian identity and
you really want to be authenticas a Christian, then in that
(26:55):
moment, it's the seeking ofholiness as the seeking of you
know, John Stott used to talkabout self denial as intrinsic
to the Christian life. But it'snot just the denying of yourself
and all of your desires as ifyou're just repressing and
squashing. It's a it's a denyingof what is untrue to you in
order to accept and be fulfilledby what God says is now true of
(27:19):
you. That's what self denial isit's always with that, that joy
on the other side is what it'sleading to.
Joshua Johnson (27:24):
If you look at at these 50 truths and these 50
questions that you have, whatwas one that was was hard for
you to write, that maybe youstruggled through it?
Unknown (27:36):
Oh, man. Well, there were a bunch that were harder,
that were hard to write. I youknow, as I'm as I'm looking
through some of them, some ofsome of it is just trying to fit
everything you want to say intoan answer. So, like, one of the
things, and I'm proud of how itcame together, but, goodness, it
was a long time getting there.
But one of them is, you know,like the question, what is the
(27:57):
Lord's Supper? You know, firstof all, we're writing for
people. We have a denominationaltradition, but we're trying to
write broadly, you know, fordifferent and a lot of different
denominations have differentviews of the supper, even
different names for it, right?
You've got the Lord's Supper,communion, mass, you know,
Eucharist, whatever. But we wantit. So we wanted to nod toward
(28:19):
all of these different anglesthat coming at the Lord's
Supper. And so this is the waywe got it. I'll just give the
answer if you're if you're okaywith it, the Lord's Supper is
communion with King Jesus at Histable, with his people. We eat
the bread and drink the cup,giving thanks for his body and
blood strengthened for serviceby this foretaste of the feast
(28:39):
to come. So basically, in thatone answer, you've got communion
with King Jesus and with otherpeople, you know, the body of
Christ, together, eating thebread, drinking the cup, giving
thanks. That's Eucharist. Oh,that's the Eucharist for his
body and blood strengthened forservice. That's the sacramental
understanding of that there is astrengthening grace that comes
(29:00):
through the Lord's Supper whenit's taken by faith and by the
foretaste of the feast to come.
So strengthen for serviceconnects to the mass. Mass
actually means sending, youknow, that is, it's
strengthening for the Christianlife. And then foretaste of the
feast to come is when Jesussays, you know, not only on the
Are we looking back in a sort ofmemorial way, but we're looking
ahead to when he drinks of thevine in his kingdom. We look
(29:23):
forward and we continue to dothis, as Paul says, until He
comes. So you have thateschatological that, that end
times element as well. But thatwas a hard one, because we had
so much we wanted to say aboutthe Lord's Supper, but, you
know, we tried to pack it intothat concise statement that
would just be each word reallyfull of truth. So
Joshua Johnson (29:44):
how does the focus and a knowledge of the
global church around the worldand what global Christianity is
doing help you in ways, whereyou're you're writing and you
could actually see thesedifferent perspectives. Was in
things on the core tenets of theChristian faith.
Unknown (30:04):
You know, it was great, as we were working on, on the
the final drafts of this lastyear, I got to attend the
Lausanne Congress for worldevangelization, which met in
Seoul. And I think is about thelargest group of of Evangelicals
worldwide that have gathered. Imean, it was more than 5000
from, you know, so manycountries. I mean, it was just
incredible. And wife
Joshua Johnson (30:24):
and I said, we're not spending that much
money to go, but it would havebeen been great to be back in
Korea. But
Unknown (30:33):
it was, you know, it was my second time to Korea, but
my first time in Korea and at aconvention center with that many
people, that many languages thatmy favorite day, I think, was
the one where everyone, a lot ofpeople, chose to wear
traditional dress from theirfrom their countries. And it,
you know that just the variety Iwas reflecting on it afterwards,
(30:56):
the worship services as well, inmultiple languages and with so
many people, just every tribeand tongue just represented
there. You know, it made mehomesick for a home I've never
been to, basically. And so oneof the passions that I've had in
terms of trying to connect withbelievers in other parts of the
world is they strengthen me.
They strengthen my faith. Theygive me perspective on things
(31:20):
that are happening in society. II like to tell people that you
need the global church in orderto keep your sanity. And here's
what you find out, the church isa mess everywhere, but it's not
the same mess, so it's justdifferent parts of the church
are healthier in certain areasand more. And so we have gifts
(31:41):
in North America to offer theglobal church, but churches in
other parts of the world havegifts to to offer us, and we
need each other in order tolike, recognize what's what can,
can I? Can I distinguish betweenwhat's the core and what's the
crazy, like, what's the core ofthe Christian faith? And then
whatever crazy stuff's happeningaround me in culture, like if I
(32:02):
can, if I can, stay connected tobelievers in other parts of the
world, to know really what thecore is, why, why Christians are
dying for their faith or beingpersecuted for their faith, that
it gives you a level ofstability, and it also opens up
avenues for just seeing moreinterpretations of the
Scriptures and how to reallywrestle with the text that is
really beautiful.
Joshua Johnson (32:24):
I was, I think it was, maybe it was last year
or the year before I was I wasapplying for a job, having
conversation with somebody thatI may wanted to work for. I had
a belief. I have a core beliefthat we need to learn from the
global body of Christ in NorthAmerica. And they said, Yes,
(32:45):
absolutely. But the our audiencedoesn't really want to hear from
the global church. They justwant to hear from North
Americans. And so we get ourlistenership is low. Things are,
you know, so how? How can wehelp people in North America get
a more global perspective, if,even if they don't think they
(33:08):
need it or want it,
Unknown (33:10):
if I had the answer to that question, your podcast
would be better. My podcastwould be better. I mean, this is
a, I mean, this is a greatquestion. One of the things that
the President, Michael Oh ofLausanne, said that sticks out
to me is that the four of theworst words for Christianity
are, I don't need you. Andwhenever As believers, we think
(33:36):
we're fine on our own, with ourown little communities, whether
it's an individual who's like, Idon't need the church, or
whether it's a church that saysI don't need any other churches,
or whether it's churches in asociety that say I don't need
churches from outside of thissociety, the posture of I don't
need you goes directly againstwhat the Apostle Paul says when
(33:59):
he talks about One Body manymembers. Now, obviously, Paul's
talking there, particularlyabout the congregation, but the
application of that does extendout, and it's, it's a strong
application from Paul's ownministry. He's telling, you
know, the Corinthians, you knowwhy, to be generous to these
other groups that are sufferingin another part of the of the
(34:21):
known world at the time so thatI don't need you. Mentality is
is so deadly because it's it'sbecause it's false. We do. We do
need each other. We mayfrustrate each other at times.
We may get annoyed with eachother, may get mad at each
other, may disagree with eachother, but we do need the
(34:42):
witness of the of the churcharound the world. I've tried to
in my own preaching and teachingand writing, and probably not
done it enough. I have tried toto pepper into my preaching and
teaching in sermons, quotes fromor stories from the church
around the world, also theChurch throughout history,
because we also. Need the peoplethat have gone before us. We
it's not like we are the be all,end all of Christianity as just
(35:07):
simply a way of making itnormal, normalizing this, this
reality where I don't have totell the church all the time we
belong to a, you know, traditionthat goes back 2000 years, or I
don't have to tell the churchall the time we belong to a
worldwide community of faith. Wejust show it in what we sing and
who we hear from, when we talkabout missions, when we hear
(35:29):
from believers in other parts ofthe world, I will say there's
one thing that's on my heart onthis, and I've been preparing a
column about it, one thing thatstands out to me is a lot of
worship music in the world isbasically transported from the
United States and translated.
And there's a lot of beauty inthat, because, because people
can sing the same songs, andthere's a connection musically.
(35:52):
But I My concern is in some andI know this from the Romanian
context the work of Diane doorsor Nicola diviano and others
there. There's rich hymnity andworship in other parts of the
world that come from frommoments of persecution suffering
particular challenges related tothe context of whatever that
(36:13):
church is. There are expressionsof worship and praise that come
up in other parts of the worldthat I think the American church
would benefit from. So I wouldlove to see more, rather than
just sort of the American churchand Western churches, exporting
our songs to the rest of theworld. I'd love to be able to
see that wave come back towardus as well, so that we can
(36:34):
really sing the songs of thosebelievers in other parts of the
world,
Joshua Johnson (36:41):
we rarely see that crossover coming back into
the United States. I think, youknow, waymaker was one that was
Nigeria. And, you know, there'sa few that that crossover, but
you're right, it's mostlyAmerican songs going throughout
the world. And man, you know, asI lived in the Middle East, and
I'm, I'm going to a church in inArabic, and we're singing songs
(37:05):
that, like I grew up with inAmerica, all these English
songs, but they're translatedinto Arabic. I'm like, they feel
good to me. But like, don't youhave your own songs? And they
do. There's a few of their own,which was beautiful as well, but
there were so many that werelike, Hey, we love the American
songs. We're just going totranslate them for us. And
Unknown (37:25):
I want to like, and again, I want music to minister
to whoever music ministers do.
There's no right and wrong here.
It's just, if you know, youknow, if the if President Trump
wants to talk about tradedeficits, can we talk about
worship deficits between thecountries? And I feel like we,
we we export a whole lot of ourstuff, and I just think we would
be as blessed and strengthenedif the churches around the world
(37:47):
and these wonderful songs andhymns that come about, if we
could benefit from them as well.
Joshua Johnson (37:52):
Yeah, there's, there's three things that you
talked about in thisconversation so far that I think
is going to help some peoplethink about our Gospel way, the
catechism of who Jesus is, andthe story and one you said, I
mean, while you were reading it,you were reading King Jesus part
of communion. You talked aboutchanging allegiance in baptism,
(38:15):
like so allegiance was reallyimportant. And I think that also
goes with freedom, freedom tofollow the ways of Jesus. What
when we see Jesus as King, andwhat does that mean for us? And
why is he King, and how doesthat help us live a Christian
life, knowing that we haveallegiance to King Jesus?
Unknown (38:38):
Yeah, I think this is, it's a crucial question. In
fact, there's, there's been longstanding debates, actually going
back, you know, the wholeLordship, salvation debates and
things like that. You know, canyou have Jesus as Savior, not
have Him as Lord and what? Now,I think it's vital that we see
Jesus as the Crucified King,because that's the way the
(38:59):
Gospels present him. That's theway the apostles talk about him.
What's challenging for us in ourday is we don't really have the
notion of kingship like thatanymore. I was just finishing a
book by about Thomas Cranmer,the reformer during the
Reformation period. He's the onewho drafted the First Book of
Common Prayer in the becamereally the pivotal cornerstone
(39:23):
of the English language, butalso of the Anglican tradition
in particular. And one of thethings that's fascinating about
that whole story, it's verymessy. It's very complicated.
What's going on betweenProtestants and Catholics at the
time Cranmer zone shiftingviews. Some of your listeners
may know that Cranmer initiallyrecanted his Protestant beliefs
(39:45):
under Queen Mary, and thenrecanted his recantation in the
university church in Oxford,they dragged him out by his
beard to the place where theyburned him, and he put his hand
in the fire. First that he haddone to sign the you know that
he had signed the Rec. He saidthe hand that offends will be
the hand that burns first. Imean, it's just fascinating
story. But Cranmer iscomplicated in part because he
(40:07):
has this, this such a high viewof kingship that it's basically
like, well, whatever King Henrythe Eighth however many wives
were in now, whatever King Henrysays is gotta go. And then he
the same thing with King Edward.
And then, really, he's doing thesame thing with with Queen Mary,
but, but he has this mindset of,I am the subject to the king,
and I do what the king says,even to the to the point of, at
(40:29):
times, you know, fudging on hisdoctrine, or having to change
things here and there. Now welook at that and we think, well,
that's just part of us thinks,you know he should have defied
the king. You know he shouldhave but, but another part of me
thinks there is, there's akernel of truth in what, in the
way that we should look, not atearthly kings, but certainly the
(40:49):
way we should look at KingJesus, is that no matter what,
our loyalty is to him, our trustis in him personally. We, we, we
trust him. We want to obey Him.
We, you know, I Henry Blackabyused to say it's an oxymoron to
say No Lord, you can't say noLord. Like, if you say no,
(41:10):
you're, you're, you're notletting him be Lord, you know,
like it's a it's an oxymoron.
Even put those two wordstogether, and I think, I think
it's very important for us,especially in a world where we
don't have a monarchy, we don'thave that Cranmer whole idea is
just foreign to us. But torecognize, when it comes to the
Lord, when it comes to our king,he calls us to follow in his
way, and we're to drop our netsand follow, leave our tax
(41:34):
collector booth and go, youknow, that's that's the vision.
I
Joshua Johnson (41:40):
know that there's a lot of debates with
savior and Lord, but I just knowthat my life has looked
drastically different when Isaid Yes, Lord, and I made Jesus
Lord, and I said, Whatever yousay, I will say yes, and my life
has been amazing since then, andI struggled a lot to say, Okay,
(42:00):
I'm doing so much for you, God,Aren't you pleased with me? And
then I shifted and go, Okay,Jesus, I'll just follow you, and
you tell me, and I will say,yes. And man, life has been so
much better since then. I mean,it's not perfect, of course,
because no Christian life isperfect, but it's been so much
better. And so, yeah, givingallegiance to King Jesus is man.
(42:23):
It is the way of life, the wayof flourishing, and it is an
incredible life that you couldhave when you actually say yes,
and you make Jesus Lord,
Unknown (42:33):
and it is the way of freedom, too. That's the other
thing, because Jesus knows how.
Jesus knows your heart betterthan you do, right? So when he
tells you to do something, evenif it goes against what you
want, and you know, and when yousay, it makes life better, we
have to qualify that, because,
Joshua Johnson (42:51):
you know, make it more
Unknown (42:52):
comfortable. No, it doesn't make it easier, and
doesn't make it like. It's like,but it is better in the sense of
this is what you were made for.
And so you feel that even thoughit may be harder, it may be a
harder life. You know, I thinksaying yes to Jesus will
complicate your life more thansimplify it, usually, because
it's going to lead to all kindsof other things. But doing that,
(43:12):
but walking his way with him,and he doesn't just tell us to
walk the way alone. It's withhim. I think that's, that's what
makes all the difference.
Joshua Johnson (43:21):
So if you could talk to people pick up the
gospel way catechism, how wouldyou envision people using this?
How do you want to see thisutilized within the church?
What? What can people do to toimplement this as part of the
life of the church and life ofdiscipleship for people as
they're following Jesus. So
Unknown (43:42):
we designed it to be flexible, and so that it would,
it would be able to really fitsome different ways of using it.
But I'll tell you what we whatwe would love to see the most.
There are 50 questions andanswers with some brief
commentary, some reflectionquestions, discussion questions,
things like that. So that'swhere that's, that's what it is.
So, you know, thinking through achurch, I think the best way to
(44:07):
get the most use out of thiswould be, you're going to take a
year with a group, and you'regoing to, basically, you've got
50 questions and answers. Giveyourself a couple of weeks off
here and there. Maybe you bunchup a couple of weeks if you need
to, if you got vacations, butyou go through, you know, one a
week, and it becomes the thefocus of your memorization and
your discussion. That's one wayto do this. We have a kids
(44:31):
version coming out next yearthat's simplified so that in
that scenario, it would be greatif you know the church is doing
this all at once, or if parentsare doing it on their own and
doing it with their kids aswell, the kids are learning them
the easier version. The parentsare learning the harder version.
But they're both, you know,they're, it's, it's meant to be
memorizable. I mean, we had, youknow, I one of our I had had
(44:53):
some, some people with realartistic sensibility come behind
us here and help us to craft itin such a way. To make it flow.
And Michael card, the singersongwriter, gave us some
suggestions on that front. Sokind of stylistically. So I
think that's the main way. Butthen, you know, there are other
other groups are going to belike, Oh, we want to do this in
(45:14):
seven weeks, seven questions aweek, you know, whatever. You
know, that's fine too. That'llwork. And then if someone just
wants to do it devotionally, onea day or one every few days, to,
kind of like, memorize, or justnot even memorize, but just go
through it devotionally to kindof get a tune up or a refresher
on Christian truth, but in a waythat has that eye toward, hey,
how does this make me stand outin the world? Like, how does
(45:36):
this make me live Jesus's way asopposed to the world's way? I
think it would be richlybeneficial, even for an
individual working through itand the discussion questions on
their
Joshua Johnson (45:45):
own. Trevin, I have a couple of quick questions
I like to ask at the end. One,if you go back to your 21 year
old self, what advice would yougive? Oh, wow,
Unknown (45:53):
I got to think about when I was 21 Oh, I would tell
my 21 year old self you're gonnayou're gonna face some setbacks
and challenges anddisappointments in the death of
some dreams. Trust God throughthat, because he knows what he's
doing. I would tell my 21 yearold self that, because that's
been multiple times since thenwhen that's been the case and
(46:17):
there's some tears when a dreamdies. But you just got to know
the Lord's got it, and theLord's plan will make more
sense. Generally, it has for me.
Anyway, with a little more timeand a little more perspective,
you look back and say, God,thanks for not answering that
prayer. And so I just, I tell my21 year old self, just chill out
when you get to those moments.
(46:40):
You
Joshua Johnson (46:40):
know, anything you've been reading or watching
lately you could recommend,
Unknown (46:44):
oh, you know, I was just, I just mentioned that
Thomas Cramer biography by dearmaid McCulloch, that was a
fascinating read and verycomplicated, because it's, it's
very complicated era. But Ireally, I really do love history
and biography, and I recently,I've been making my way through
(47:05):
Robert Caro's massive volumes onthe life of Lyndon B Johnson,
which LBJ is not a presidentthat people look back and be
like, oh, I want to read fourvolumes about Lyndon Johnson,
but Robert Caro is just anAmazing biographer. How he
tells, how he gives the detailsabout what's going on,
contextually at the time andwhatnot. And so I've done three
(47:28):
out of the four that are alreadyout. I'm hoping that Robert Caro
lives long enough to finish thelast one, but they're, they're
really excellent, and now Iunderstand what all the fuss is
about, because I've heard peopletalk about those for a long
time, and they really are anachievement. Wow,
Joshua Johnson (47:43):
that's great.
Well, the Gospel way catechismwill be out wherever you get
books, and you can use that, buythem for your church to help
people go through this. Good Isthere anywhere else that you'd
like to point people to? Yeah,you can just
Unknown (47:59):
go to gospelwaycatechism.com if you're
interested in it, it'll show youthere's a workbook with it as
well. So it's, it's just, it'sgot some couple of videos that
explain it. But yeah, we'd lovefor anyone to check it out for
their own benefit or for theirchurches benefit. And we just,
our prayer is that it'll just bea good discipleship tool to help
the church, you know, look alittle more like Jesus.
Excellent.
Joshua Johnson (48:20):
Well, Trevin, thank you for this conversation
to help us know what it lookslike to follow King Jesus in
this world, this crazy worldthat we live in, and thank you
for this great resource. Iappreciate the conversation.
Really had a good time talkingto you. So thanks so much. You
Unknown (48:40):
you.
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