August 26, 2025 • 55 mins
Natalie Runion returns to Shifting Culture with her new book I Don’t Even Like Women: And Other Lies That Get in the Way of Sacred Sisterhood. Behind the provocative title is a deeper story: how the church has too often handed women scripts of competition, gossip, and scarcity and how those scripts can be rewritten into something truer and freer. In this conversation, we talk about identity, trust, and the work of forgiveness. We explore what women’s ministry has been, and what it could become when collaboration replaces competition, when community is rooted in abundance, and when Jesus’ vision of sacred sisterhood begins to take hold. This isn’t just about women’s ministry. It’s about how all of us, men and women, learn to build communities that dignify rather than diminish.
Natalie Runion is the USA Today bestselling author of Raised to Stay and The House That Jesus Built, as well as the creator of the Raised to Stay Community (@raisedtostay). She lives in Kentucky with her husband, Tony, and their two daughters, where they work together to provide training to leaders in pursuit of a healthy church.
Natalie's Book:
Natalie's Recommendations:
Subscribe to Our Substack: Shifting Culture
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.
Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTube
Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Natalie Runion (00:00):
The words of Jesus tell us our identity. We
(00:03):
find out who we are as daughtersby being in the presence of God,
being in the word worshiping,being in biblical community
where people speak to us, notnecessarily where we are, but
who we're becoming. And thosescripts are slowly rewritten as
we put ourselves in the presenceof God and in the presence of
people who have been with Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (00:36):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact wecould make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, Iam so excited to have Natalie
Runyon back on the podcast. Hernew book carries the disarming,
almost tongue in cheek title. Idon't even like women and other
lies that get in the way ofsacred sisterhood, but beneath
(00:58):
that humor is something serious.
It's about the stories women aretold by churches, by culture, by
each other, and how thosescripts shape identity,
belonging and even faith itself.
What I really find compellingabout Natalie's work is the way
it pulls together multiplethreads. She's talking about
women's ministry, but she's alsotalking about something larger,
how communities form, how trustis broken, how gossip corrodes
(01:19):
and how forgiveness can remakeus. In her telling women's
ministry becomes a kind of casestudy for the bigger cultural
problem of scarcity versusabundance, whether we live as
though there's only one seat atthe table, or whether the
kingdom of God really is asexpansive as Jesus says it is,
this conversation sits in thattension. We talk about the
(01:40):
damage that's been done, butalso the possibility of healing.
We explore the work of rewritingold scripts into something
truer, more freeing, and we askwhat sacred sisterhood could
look like if women and men chosecollaboration over competition,
hope over cynicism, abundanceover scarcity. So this isn't
just about women's ministry.
(02:01):
It's about the way we all buildcommunities that either diminish
or dignify one another, and it'sabout what it means to believe
Jesus when He says there isenough. So join us. Here is my
conversation with Natalie.
Runyon, Natalie, welcome back toshifting culture. Thank you for
joining me again.
Natalie Runion (02:20):
It is so good to be back with you. Thanks for
having me. I'm excited to diginto
Joshua Johnson (02:24):
I don't even like women. It's a hilarious
title. It's it's funny. It comesfrom a story where you were
called into leading women'sministry. Just take me into
that. Why? Why this book? Whythis title? And what are you
trying to say here? You
Natalie Runion (02:40):
know, I had been in worship ministry for 20 plus
years. It had been my gatewayback into ministry, and my
family and I had just movedabout 1000 miles away for me to
be a worship pastor at this verylarge and successful worship
church. And about a year intothat assignment, I got pulled
into my boss's office and hesaid, you know, we think you're
(03:01):
a great worship leader, but wethink you have a teaching gift,
and we would like for you tomove into the women's pastor
role. And it felt just like therug got pulled out from under
me, because first of all, I wentto be a worship leader. That's
all I had really known how to doin the church. And I said to my
(03:21):
boss in that moment, out ofsheer emotion, like, why would
you guys do this to me? I don'teven like women. This isn't even
like a calling on my life. Andreally what was interesting
about that is I would spend fiveyears with those incredible
women at that church, and it'snow been something that as I
travel and I lead for women'sconferences and things like
that. I'll ask the women'spastors or the pastor's wife,
(03:45):
how did you get into this? Andnine times out of 10 they say
those exact words, I don't know.
I don't even like women.
Joshua Johnson (03:50):
And so it is a constant refrain that you're
hearing over and over again.
What do you think it is? What doyou think that is happening
within the church and women,
Natalie Runion (04:01):
I think there's two things. I think the first of
all, if we address the churchcomplication, it's that women's
ministry has been done poorly. Iwould say, since I was a little
girl, I can remember being withmy mom, who's a pastor's wife,
and they would have teas onSaturday morning, they would do
foot washing services, wherewomen kept their pantyhose on
(04:21):
like it was weird stuff, whereespecially teenage girls or
single women or working women,everything was sort of catered
to the stay at home mom or theChristian woman. And it wasn't a
safe place to bring your nonChristian friends. There wasn't
a lot of theology, it was a lotof almost like country club type
(04:44):
setting. And then we have theconversation of, why is this
such a thing for women in theworld? Well, I think we've been
having scripts written over us,from Hollywood to just our
culture alone that has beentelling us who we are and how we
should behave. That impacts ouridentity and how we see each
other honestly.
Joshua Johnson (05:04):
So what kind of the scripts that women are
starting to believe that theyhave taken into their lives,
they've made it part of theiridentity, that they have been
fed these scripts? What are someof the scripts that they've been
fed?
Natalie Runion (05:18):
I think some of the negative ones, and I named
those in each chapter, is thingslike women are so emotional,
like women are made to feelguilty for emoting, through
empathy, through sympathy,through anger. We're kind of
taught to be that proverbs 31woman, which we can talk about
later, but we're taught to bequiet, to control ourselves, and
(05:39):
if we can't do that, then we'renot being submissive, you know.
And all of those things thatChristian culture has sort of
told women, I think, from a notjust a Christian perspective,
but also just women in general,we've been told we're too
dramatic, that we're gossips,that we're Catty, that we're
competitive. And you hear thesethings since you're a little
(06:00):
girl on the playground, thingslike, Well, you can't play with
us, you don't look like us, oryou can't sit with us at recess.
And unfortunately, those scriptsthat have been written over us,
I'm not pretty enough, I'm nottalented enough, I'm not
athletic enough, those transferinto adulthood if they're not
dealt with in our early 20s and30s. So that mean girls become
(06:21):
mean women, and that's just ourreality.
Joshua Johnson (06:24):
I think that's that's something that we have to
do a much better job in thechurch, hands, in culture, and
especially when, when women hitadolescence, that's the as the
time where they're starting toreceive scripts. The the shift
into adolescence is when theythey come into a place where it
(06:46):
doesn't seem like there's theirmental health shifts a little
bit. They're not free to be whothey actually are because
they're starting to believethese these things. What do you
think needs to happen? How do wehelp not reinforce these scripts
over and over again, evenespecially when we're we're
raising girls like I would liketo, I'd like to stop this before
(07:09):
it becomes a huge problem, andwe have to reverse it and do all
the work that you're trying todo to actually help women come
back together and learn a betterscript.
Natalie Runion (07:18):
Trust Me, I'm raising teenage girls right now,
and it's taking everything in mypower to not transfer those
scripts of my life being a 90sgirl who was in purity culture,
also in the anorexic and bulimicand bulimic culture, the heroin
chic model phase, you know, howdo I not project onto my teenage
(07:38):
daughters the scripts that werewritten for me by Hollywood, by
the fashion industry and even bythe church, with the purity
culture movement to not shame mydaughters on the other spectrum
of things. And so it has beenreally my husband and I sitting
down and being like, how do werewrite these scripts? And the
only way to do it is throughknowing the Word of God and
(07:58):
speaking the Word of God overour kids, and not just our kids,
but any child who comes throughour door to have those scripts
that are negative rephrased intobiblical scripture conversation,
which they may not know thatwe're using the Bible. But when
kids come through my house, mydaughter's friends, I am always
saying things like, you arewelcome here. You are so
(08:20):
talented. You are so gifted atthis. We're so glad you're here
and just making sure that if anynegative script is being spoken
over them in their schools,teams at their home, that our
house is a place where thosescripts are being rewritten.
Joshua Johnson (08:34):
That's helpful, that it's not just your kids,
that's it's their friends, thatthey see it when they're coming
over that they see like, Oh, mymom, my dad. They're consistent
like this. This is real. It'snot just, you know, a false
thing that they just want topour into me, but as for my
friends and everybody, andhopefully that starts to shift
(08:58):
something in them. And I knowyou're to reinforce truth and to
reinforce who people truly areand their identity. It's going
to take a lot of work, right?
It's going to take over andover, especially that, you know,
when I hear one negative thingfrom somebody, I think about
that more than any of thepositive things that people say
about me over and over again.
(09:20):
And and I think that's part ofwhat's happening in the church,
too. I think one of the bigthings that is a problem, I
think, is gossip and women andmen, of course, but we're
talking about each other in anegative light. And if women's
ministry has become a countryclub, it starts to foster a
(09:41):
place of gossip. What's going onthere? Why is gossip happening?
Why is this a script that webelieve that we're Gossip Girls,
or you're cost of girls, like,what's going on?
Natalie Runion (09:53):
Well, you know, obviously in in James, I mean,
James addresses it like,basically, like your words are
going. To produce life anddeath, and it's like guiding a
horse with the bit in its mouth.
Like our words are going tocreate tension, it's going to
create either a place ofsomething to live and breathe or
something that is going to die.
And I mean, our words arecapable of giving life or
(10:17):
literally tearing someone down.
And I think that as Christians,we've gotten around this in
women's ministry by posing ourgossip as prayer requests or as
this is just general informationthat I think everyone should
know for the better of ourchurch and we we basically
package it in something superspiritual when really it's still
the gross thing James is talkingabout. And what happens then is,
(10:40):
in we become an unsafe sanctuaryof sisterhood. And when people
saw my title, you know, andother lies that we believe that
get in the way of sacredsisterhood, they're like, what
does that word sacred mean?
Like? And it's not hocus pocus.
It's saying that if something issacred, it's set apart. Our
sanctuaries are to be set apart.
(11:02):
And when women come into oursanctuaries, which could be our
homes, it could be our women'sgroups, it could be a small
group. It should be the safestplace in the world for them. And
when they share about a prodigalor a child who's on drugs or a
marriage that isn't going well,or a job loss, and then they
hear that is being spoken aboutin other areas outside of that
(11:24):
sacred sanctuary that is wherethere is a breach of trust. And
a lot of times, women will neverstep foot, not only back into
that event or that women's eventor group, but back into a church
and so gossip, I believe I kindof came up with my own
definition. Is really the egodemanding to be heard when it
has nothing of value to say. AndI think as Christian women,
(11:47):
there is a lot of stuff we canbe talking about that is not
each other, and we're wasting alot of precious time and losing
a lot of precious souls in ourgossip. How
Joshua Johnson (11:57):
do we build something better? So if you're
thinking about something where,hey, you're bringing women into
a space. It's supposed to be aset apart, sacred. There's some
trust building that hashappened, and then gossip breaks
that trust. They don't want toset foot in there again. How do
we build better spaces forwomen? What does this start to
(12:18):
look like? How is there truevulnerability, trust,
accountability and love andsupports within spaces for women
in the church,
Natalie Runion (12:29):
I was asking myself all those same questions
at 40 years old, when I'm handedeight congregations of women to
come together to have thiswomen's ministry, and you know,
I, I wasn't a sorority girl, soyou know, I wasn't like a large
group of women's kind of a girl,but I had noticed some of these
trends that were popping up fromOld Guard leadership. And I
thought we have this rareopportunity, you know,
(12:50):
transition is a great time forreflection, to really reframe
what women's ministry biblicallyshould look like. And what I
decided was that we would getaway from this model of it being
a free for all that anybody canhave a small group, anybody can
lead any study they want. It canbe done anywhere, and we brought
all of the women under one rooffor an entire year of leadership
(13:13):
training on learning how to havehard and holy conversations
under the watchful eye ofpastors and leaders who loved
them, cared for them and wouldtrain them on how to cut people
off if gossip started in aconversation, or would train
them how to lead. Well, weactually did. Pete scazza,
entire, Emotionally HealthySpirituality, emotionally
(13:36):
healthy relationships. We spentthree full years rewriting the
script of women's ministry whereI was, and it took every bit of
those three years to reframewhat a women's ministry should
look like. And basically, whatdoes it look like? It looks like
every woman serving the peopleof God with the heart of Jesus
and making sure that thepriority is care, Scripture and
(13:59):
love. And it was wild to watchit, because what happened was
pastors ended up not having tobe the first call when there was
a baby born or a spouse that wehad lost. Those women, the
people of God, caring for thepeople of God. I watched it with
my own eyes, and was there stillgossip? I'm sure there was. But
what we did is we held itaccountable. When we heard about
it, we dealt with it. We heldmeetings. We did not let it get
(14:22):
past us once we knew about it.
And I think for women, standingup to women is terrifying, but
we held women to a standard, andI think that that is something
that even in our neighborhoods,with our neighbors, with our
kids, friends, with our playdate friends, we can all say it
stops with me. I'm not listeningto this, I'm not participating
in this, but that takes prettymuch a solid resolve in our
(14:44):
spirits to say, I'm going to bethat person
Joshua Johnson (14:48):
that's so good.
We're having conversations likethat in our church. You know, as
we're we have home churchesaround so we're bringing our
home church leaders back in thisfall, we're going to start to go
through emotionally healthy.
Spirituality. We're gonna we'rewe're bringing people back in to
make sure that these they knowwhat they're doing, they're as
they're facilitatingconversations in their homes. I
(15:10):
think that's what you just said.
I think it's wonderful. Why?
Because now what you're you'rebuilding, you're building
shepherds for for women toactually, that are trained, that
know how to have good, solidconversations, know how to
facilitate those, know where togo, what to do. I mean, that is
(15:31):
so huge. It's not a free forall. That's a that's a big, big
thing. And what I love aboutthat is that you are enabling
women in women's ministry to bethe church, to not just be some
ancillary thing on the side ofthe church, but actually be the
church where they're at. How canwomen start to believe that they
(15:56):
are the church, that they have aspace where they can be with
others as the body of Christ.
Natalie Runion (16:06):
It's challenging, especially with how
churches have defined what womencan and cannot do. And I feel
like some women feelimmobilized, like, well, I can't
have the title pastor, sotherefore I can't Shepherd
anyone. And that's not true whenwe as individual Ecclesias say I
love God and I love people, andI have a pasture around me,
(16:26):
whether that pasture is yourplaygroup, your job, your
church, whatever that lookslike, God has entrusted sheep to
you, and it might look like yoursingle neighbor next door. It
might look like a teacher or theStarbucks barista, but God has
placed sheep in front of you whoneed to hear his name, who need
(16:46):
to know that they're validated,that they're beautiful, that
they're wanted. And I think wehave said, well, I can only do
ministry if I have this title,and I'm in a church, and we have
to remember women like from thevery beginning, God created us
to be different from men. Hecreated us to worship. He
created us to have a have arole, a name, a place and an
(17:07):
assignment. And I think we'veboxed ourselves in based off of
what people have said we can andcannot do when God says that we
are to go and make disciples andto love Him and to love people
and that right there we can doeverywhere we are.
Joshua Johnson (17:21):
I want to swerve a little bit back into your
story of hearing you're going tobe in women's ministry, but when
they said, We think you have ateaching gift, and I think it's
it's been born out throughoutnow your life and what you're
doing and what you have donesince then, the teaching gift is
(17:42):
real. It's there you have it,and you could, you could teach
well. So in those moments whereI think, because women are going
to have moments like this a lot,in those moments where you think
it's going to be one thing, it'sgoing to be worship leading, but
then it swerves into somethingelse. How do we deal with those
(18:04):
moments where God might bemoving us into a space where he
wants to, you know, use, use usfor something, for His glory,
when we think it's one way, butGod says, No, it's going to be
another. How do we deal withthose moments.
Natalie Runion (18:21):
Well, I'll be honest, I went kicking and
screaming. There was no like,there was no gentle exit for me,
and I'm grateful that the Lord,you know, he did have to pry
worship from my cold, deadhands. And I hate to admit that,
because I really had hoped at 40that I would be a more
surrendered woman. But I thinkmy identity was so wrapped up in
worship leadership that the Lordsaw that as something that was
(18:45):
almost a kryptonite, that if Ibelieved I could only do one
thing for the kingdom, then Iwould be stunted in my spiritual
growth, in my relationship withhim and my love for His church,
and he really had to over thecourse of that five year span,
and still working on me in thisis reminding me that we as God's
kids, are not one trick ponies,and for a lot of women, we do
(19:07):
get pigeonholed into roles atthe church that we didn't sign
up for, such as administration,kids ministry, women's ministry,
because it feels safe for ourmale brother. You know our
brothers to say this feels likea women centric role, and so a
lot of us do start out in thosepositions and then begin to
prove ourselves to be strong,teachers, leaders,
(19:30):
communicators, and I believe theLord gives us eyes to see it in
ourselves, but also shows ourbrothers like he did my pastor,
hey, this woman has something inher that she can't even see yet.
And so for my sisters, I wouldjust say, like there is going to
be a natural progression. Ibelieve, as the Lord continues
to build his church, that he'sgoing to trust us with more than
(19:52):
just the status quo in thechurch, and we have to be
willing to say, like Mary did,be it unto me, as you have said.
I don't know what I'm carrying.
I don't know that I have theHoly Spirit necessarily growing
in me yet, but I know thatthere's something in there, and
it's going to be a process tosee that come forth. But we, if
we're not careful, we willsettle for our good rather than
(20:12):
accepting God's best.
Joshua Johnson (20:15):
Exactly. So a lot of people are settling for
the status quo, and when we seethat what the church has been
doing, or there's women'sministry on the side, it is
status quo, and we're like, hey,we want to just blow up the
status quo and then start again.
But what you just articulatedthat it's going to be a process
to get to the other side. How dowe not just blow up the status
(20:39):
quo and just tear it all down,right? But have a process of
regeneration and growth intowhat is next and what is new and
what is better for the church.
Natalie Runion (20:56):
Well, I know we've all heard the saying that
you can't turn a ship in theocean too quickly that it takes
five miles to turn a giant shipin the ocean. Otherwise you'll
flip it. And I think that's whatI realized that once I was okay
with being in women's ministry,I was like, Okay, I see that
this culture needs shifted, butI can't just jerk the steering
(21:17):
wheel. I have to ease us intothese transitions. And really
what it was, was it took me backto that story of Deborah in
Judges, where it said that everyday she showed up to her palm of
Deborah and rightly judged thepeople of Israel. And what I
love about that story is thatshe was consistent to show up
under her palm every day, andthe battle that Barack invited
(21:39):
her into wasn't a day after shesat under her palm This was
after a long time of watchingher steward well that position
under that palm tree and bewhere she said she was going to
be, do what she said she wasgoing to do, and prove that she
heard from the Lord and shewould deliver the word of the
Lord, no matter how hard it wasto say what was needed to be
(22:00):
said. And I think for a lot ofwomen, we see this opportunity
to break glass ceilings in thechurch, and rather than wait for
the Lord to promote us throughstewarding our palm tree, we go
in with a hammer and just wantto demolish all systems and all
processes, probably with a goodheart, but we know that we can
(22:20):
have good intentions, but a badspirit, and I really have had to
check my heart in this entireseason of wanting to fight for
women and really strong placesof leadership in the church, but
without blowing up systems thatare actually not wrong. They
just need tweaks or worked on.
And I think as women, we cancollaborate together, not
compete, but collaborate. Seethat change brought gently into
(22:40):
the house of God, when
Joshua Johnson (22:44):
these glass ceilings or things that are
being broken, the culture isshifting, when women are moving
into positions of leadership, alot of the times it's the it's
other women that are not likingthat and trying to hold other
women back, and there is a lotof infighting. There's
competition. You said, how? Why?
Why isn't there collaborationamongst women? Why isn't there
(23:10):
more support amongst women? Whyisn't there more more love and
cheering on other women whilethings are shifting and
changing. I just say, when Iinterviewed Beth Allison Barr,
and she's like, it's actuallymore from the women than it is
from the men, I get much morepushback. And I was like, That
(23:33):
is crazy.
Natalie Runion (23:36):
Listen, first of all, Beth Allison Barr is the
goat. I just want to make itclear I am in the middle of her
new book, and I am blown away byher, and she's absolutely right,
and it's unfair for ourbrothers, and I've tried to
bring hopefully some peace to mybrothers and saying we're not
making it easy on you. So I wantto say that first, it's okay to
not know how to have theconversation, because I think it
(23:56):
is tender, but it shouldn't be.
It needs to be addressed. Ithink that what has happened
just traditionally over the last20 years is that there have been
one or two seats for women inany given role in the church, be
it an executive team, a pastoralteam, you name it, on the
worship team, there's one spotfor that one woman to back up
the worship leader, who's a man,to be in the room with all the
(24:19):
men. And so what happens iswomen come on to church staff.
And I just had a conversationwith my dear friend Becky
Johnson, who's the pastor atJesus culture now under banning
and she said women kind of wantthe best of both worlds. They
want to raise their kids and beout of the workforce for 1516,
years, and then they want tocome into the church and start
(24:41):
wanting to be boardroom Becky,as she called them. And I think
that's true. Women are like, no,it's time for me to use my voice
now, and they're still thinkingit's 20 years ago that there's
only one seat at this table. Andso rather than kind of coming
in, relearning culture,relearning the church as it is
today. Or they go in with thismentality of, I've got to fight
for my rightful seat at thisplace. It's my time. I'm 40
(25:04):
years old, 50, and our brothersare like, whoa, wait a minute.
Like, it's not that there's onlyone seat, but we really need to
make sure we're prayerfullyconsidering who is in these
positions and how we worktogether. And so there's women
that are kind of been in thisfor the last 20 years in the
church, and they're seeing, Ohno, there are more than one
seats, but there are some whoare just are a little bit
(25:26):
unhealed or wanting more power,and then there's no room for
collaboration. And so I justwant to say that I agree 100%
that we as women have createdthis competition that's not even
there anymore. And if we'redoing our jobs well, and we're
showing up like Deborah didunder our palm, the Lord is
going to open up doors like wecould never imagine. And it
(25:48):
isn't about how many seats thereare, it's has God entrusted you
with this seat? And if he has,then there doesn't need to be
competition, because there'salways going to be room at the
table. But I say thatcollaboration kills competition.
That's kind of what I havealways leaned on. And we as
women in the church have a longway to go in that.
Joshua Johnson (26:08):
I mean, that's the difference between right,
scarcity and abundance. Like, ifthere's a mindset like in the
kingdom, there's only one spotthere isn't enough where it's
always gonna be fighting withGod, there's always enough in
the kingdom, like that we havewe do have enough. This is why
we fight wars around the world.
This is everything as we believethat there's not enough for
(26:30):
everybody to go around, butthere is. So how do we flip that
script? How do we move out froma different place that is not a
place of scarcity anymore. Thekingdom of God is is bigger and
better and more beautiful thanwe can imagine.
Natalie Runion (26:51):
Well, I'll talk first to the men, because I do
think this is a question thathas been asked of me a lot
lately. And I would say numberone, just maybe take inventory
of who is sitting in thedifferent seats of your staff,
who is sitting in places ofleadership that have a voice and
a vote into how things aregoing. And if you notice that
there is only one seat for onewoman, it is possible that that
(27:14):
is creating some tension withinyour culture, that there is only
one woman who deserves orbelongs. Now it could be you
only have one woman, but arethere other women that you've
been identifying as a strongleader, as a faithful servant,
who you are like, You know what?
We actually could bring one moreinto this conversation, because
I think having at least twowomen at the table, it doesn't
(27:34):
make it feel so exclusive. So Iwould just say, if there's if
there's space, if there's space.
And there are candidates, notbecause you just need to put a
woman in a role, but there areactual people, women who would
be good for your organization.
Consider maybe not just havingone main worship woman up there
with five men, consider addingone more. If she's there and
(27:56):
she's called for women, we havegot to be each other's biggest
cheerleaders and biggestadvocates. And when I say that
collaboration kills competition,I say this when I walk into a
room, I will always praise atleast one other woman in my life
who was doing good work for thekingdom. And this year, I
realized I was overbooked. Icould not take any more speaking
(28:18):
engagements. And so what I didis I put out a social media post
of three of my friends who arekilling it as speakers and
conference speakers, and I said,Look, I'm booked, but I want you
to reach out to my girlfriends,who I trust with my whole life,
to love your church well. Andthey started getting calls
immediately. That wasn't becauseI felt sorry for them, it's
because I want their voices tobe heard, and I believe in what
(28:40):
God has placed inside of them.
And as a result of that, I getto scatter more seeds through
them, and my kingdom legacy, mymy role in the kingdom, expands
because of my sisterhood withthem. And so that's been
something I've been practicingglobally and locally, is to
really celebrate women doinggood Kingdom work, who are not
(29:01):
my competitions, but mycollaborators.
Joshua Johnson (29:03):
So let's build more collaboration, and let's
build more sacred sisterhood. Sogive us some more steps that I
mean you just you just named onethere, but more steps that that
women can do to build the sacredsisterhood within the church.
Natalie Runion (29:17):
We need to be what we needed when we were 20,
when we were 30, when we werestarting out, not just in
ministry, because this is beyondjust ministry, being a girl,
being a woman. It is every stageof life. We need women who have
already been where we are, whohave not necessarily conquered
it, but survived it, and somewords of encouragement and
(29:37):
prophetic words. And byprophetic words, I mean just
speaking scripture over us,praying over us, sending a text
message and saying, I see howhard this season of parenting
is, and you're crushing it. Weneed to as women, remember that,
first of all, we're all girlsgoing through this at the same
time. None of us have done thisbefore. I've never been a 45
year old woman before. I'venever raised. Age girls before.
(30:01):
I'm just as new as anyone. Butwhat I do know is that there are
women in my life who have and ifI need them, they're there for
me. And I think that weunderestimate and undervalue
mentorship and discipleship. Sowomen, be what you needed, and
then look for people who havebeen where you are or where
you're going, who you admire,and get coffee with them. Don't
(30:21):
be so prideful and think youjust have to, like, figure it
all out. You know? I think thenext thing is, is that we have
to put that pride down and startsearching for Sacred sisterhood
in a way that's intentional,which means your phone may not
be ringing with invites to goget coffee or lunch with a
woman, but somebody needs you,and it might feel like, well,
(30:41):
they should be reaching out tome. No, we're past that. So many
of us have isolated ourselvesthrough covid, through
parenting, through hard seasonsin our jobs, and some of us just
need to be intentional. And Iknow not everybody is
intentional. We're introverts orEnneagram number, whatever it
is, but community comes to thecommitted we we have to be
(31:03):
committed to finding community.
And finally, just remember thatjust because something bad
happened to you in one smallgroup at another church, or just
because one woman said somethingor did something to you 510,
years ago, at a church, thereare a lot of really good women
in the church, in small groupswho would love to have you part
of their community, and so don'tforsake community because of one
bad experience. I'm watchingwomen's ministry shift before my
(31:26):
eyes, and God is doing good workin his house.
Joshua Johnson (31:30):
Let's talk about forgiveness. If you've been hurt
for a long time. I mean,forgiveness is more for me than
it is for the person or that I'mforgiving, it's to get rid of
the chains that is around me sothat I could be free and move
into a space where I can trustagain. I could be vulnerable
(31:51):
again, I could actually have newrelationships. Why is
forgiveness important when wehave been hurt and we're moving
towards shifting into a new,better space.
Natalie Runion (32:05):
This year alone, I have seen more deliverance,
and yes, I'm using the worddeliverance from the
conversation of unforgivenessthan any other conversation that
I have had as a pastor,preaching from a pulpit, when I
say deliverance, I am talkingfull on women, weeping, going to
their knees, just completelyundone because of the hurt
(32:27):
they've experienced in church atthe hands of shepherds, pastors,
wives, women's ministries, andit is heartbreaking, and yet, at
the same time, those women arebeing fully delivered of
unforgiveness and stepping backinto community because the enemy
wants us to be so bound byunforgiveness. Not only that we
can't forgive, but we aren'tforgiven. The Scriptures tell us
(32:47):
that if we don't forgive, wewon't be forgiven. So you know,
church hurt won't kill you, butunforgiveness will. And there is
something about that that reallystarted to weigh on my heart.
And last year, this is very,very personal, but I had been
traveling the world tellingpeople forgive, heal. It's
amazing, and I'm in Canada onenight, and I realized, oh my
(33:09):
goodness, like I haven'tforgiven, and I was thinking of
this situation where I hadn'tforgiven people, and all of this
anxiety was in me, and I hadgained 30 pounds, and I thought
it was just traveling, but asI'm being convicted on the
platform as the preacher, I'mrealizing that the Lord is like
I want to do a work in you. AndI was radically healed in Canada
(33:29):
last May from unforgiveness, andthis year has been a pro. Has
been a process, becauseforgiveness isn't linear. But I
have lost all of that weight. Ihave been able to be in
conversation and community withthose people. And you know,
we're not like BFFs and braidingeach other's hair and stuff like
that, but we, I think of themwith a pure heart, and I think
(33:50):
that that's what so many of usjust need to remember, is that
healing isn't linear.
Forgiveness isn't linear. Butyou're right, releasing those
people make space for us, tomake room for safe people. And
so that process can be throughcounseling, through therapy,
through medication, through thechurch, but I'm telling you,
forgiveness is for all of us,and it's
Joshua Johnson (34:08):
from the Lord.
I've said this a few times, butnow I think that forgiveness is
the secret sauce to our lives,to the Christian faith, like it
is so huge and key, and it doesnot excuse what has been done to
you at all. It doesn't excusethat. It doesn't make it right.
It doesn't like absolve peoplefrom what they have done, but it
does set you free. Can you helpme then, as the church, what do
(34:31):
we do with women's ministry?
Then, like, what is this? How dowe reframe this? I know you're
you're talking to womenspecifically, but I want to
know, what do we we do? Do wekeep it as an ancillary
ministry? Do we fold everythingin together with everybody? How
(34:52):
does the How does it work to behealthy and whole, to bring
people into a place where theydo look more like Jesus and.
It's not just Country Club fair.
Natalie Runion (35:03):
I think that's independent for every church. I
think you have to look at yourchurch set up and say, What are
we set up for? Are we a smallgroup based church? Are we a
program driven church? Are wethe kind of church that heavily
relies on these ancillaryministries to bring people in?
Is it an outreach, or is it acountry club? Are we actually
multiplying when we do these orare we just spending a lot of
(35:26):
money to feed a bunch of womenwho would be here, regardless of
whether or not we were, youknow, spending 50 grand on an
event? I think that we have tolook at all of our ministries,
not just women's ministry, butMen's Ministry, all of it, and
say, Is it a source, or is it aresource? Because women's
ministry should never replaceSunday morning or your gathering
(35:46):
of the saints. Women's ministryshould never exhaust your staff.
It should never exhaust yourteam. It should never ask women
in your community to put outmore time and resources than
maybe an outreach event orcoming into church on a Sunday
morning and worshiping and sowhatever your church culture
values, I think women's ministrycan fit into it without it
(36:09):
looking like it did in 1995 andthe only way that you're going
to know this is by asking womenin your community what they want
from their time together withOther women, and also praying
and fasting and asking the Lord,Lord, what do you want for the
daughters of this house? And itcould be that you guys all clump
into one small group, and youjust have a small group ministry
(36:31):
that where some are single momsand some are multi generational,
and some are, you know, momswith kids, or working women, or
whatever it is, or it is thatonce a year you do a huge
conference where you bring in abig name, but you have to decide
not what is best for justwomen's ministry, but what is
going to bring as many peopleinto hearing the name of Jesus
(36:53):
Christ, weekly, monthly andevery year. And if that's a
conference, great if it's smallgroups, great if it's a weekly
women's gathering, awesome, butwhatever it is, it must point
people to Jesus first and thendraw them into community,
biblical sacred communitysecond. And if you can't do it
well, don't do it like I'mbegging you. Don't do it. If you
(37:16):
can't do it well, because you'llhurt people. You'll over promise
and under deliver, and you'llhurt women. And you just need to
do something that you can keepgoing with in your church
culture and and uphold your endof that bargain with whatever
you're offering them. So
Joshua Johnson (37:31):
you're saying that church should be about
Jesus and and community and notour programs. That's crazy.
That's crazy talk. Natalie, Ican't believe you said that. So
as we we look at Jesus the waythat he actually had
relationships with women andtreated women and had women with
him all the time, what can welearn from Jesus as we are the
(37:55):
embodiment of him now, and howwomen can have be friends and to
be with each other in community.
Natalie Runion (38:03):
I love how Jesus never saw women as a problem to
be solved. He wasn't likelooking at women who came into
his midst like, Oh, I've got todeal with this, right? There was
always invitation, conversation,evaluation. He was constantly
seeking, especially with thewoman at the well, there was
always an intention in thatconversation, and I think that
(38:25):
especially when we look at ourrelationship with pastors as
women, so many times we feellike we can't be in friendship
with the men on our staff orwith the men in the church,
because of all of the stigmasthat are around that. But what
I've learned is that whenshepherds Shepherd women, well,
it's with that sameintentionality, that same
question, that sameintentionality to to dig deeper.
(38:47):
And I can just say, from beingon a church staff, some of the
greatest moments ofencouragement were when my
pastor just looked at me andsaid, Hey, you're doing a great
job. Do you have any questions?
Is there anything that we can dofor you as a staff and and being
seen as a peer. Jesus made womenfeel as if they were peers with
those other men. He never madethem feel diminished. And even
in Acts. Chapter one, verse 12and 14, it says that all of the
(39:10):
disciples, the women included,decided they were in this till
the very end. And what were theydoing? They were having a
business meeting to figure outwho was going to replace Judas.
There were women that weretrusted with decisions that were
going to be made, and I I justbelieve that, as Jesus trusted
women, as Jesus invested intowomen, that we can do that in
the church now and still keepproper management in place. I
(39:34):
want to be very clear that Ilove biblical relationships
between men and women. I have ahusband who I love is the head
of my home. I have a male pastorand pastor's wife who I love,
being under their care and theirshepherding. I am not saying
that women should just take overand be able to do whatever they
want, but to understand thatthere is a co partnership in
(39:56):
this to. Bring people into thekingdom of God, and that's
important that we know how Jesustreated women, because we can
model then, not only how weallow ourselves to be received
by other people, but also how wetreat other people. And I'll be
honest, I've been treated betterby my brothers and my sisters.
And so I do think that this is aconversation that how did Jesus
(40:18):
treat women? It's not about howshould the men should treat the
women. I think that women weshould model. Yeah, Jesus
treated women.
Joshua Johnson (40:28):
Yes, exactly, exactly. That's that's sad to
me. If you've been treatedbetter by men than women, like
it. It doesn't need to be thatway. It really doesn't need to
be that way. There isn't a bigcompetition. There can be some
mutual flourishing betweenwomen. I really, really hope so.
(40:49):
So we're learning from Jesus.
One of the things that you, youwent through, you talked, I
think you touched on a littlebit, is about your emotional
intelligence and learning some,some EQ and so if you haven't
been treated well by women, whatis the journey towards emotional
intelligence? What's the journeyto actually figuring that out?
Natalie Runion (41:13):
It's crazy, because I had been in corporate
America for several years, and Ihad been taught, hey, you
actually have a leg up in thisbecause you're tall, you're
brunette, you dress well, andwhen you walk into a boardroom,
you're going to demand attentionin the room. So in corporate
America, I was being told thisabout you, that you're loud,
you're assertive, this is allgoing to work well for you. And
(41:36):
that's really as I was gettingfull time ministry opportunities
in churches, how then I ledteams. Was okay, well, this
seems to be something thatpeople desire, is transparency,
authority. And so I took thatwith me into church spaces where
people had not been in corporateAmerica, where there had not
been really any bottom lines andoversights and management. And
(41:58):
so when I came in, I wasn'tthere as the confident woman of
God, I was a steamroller. I wascoming in and just, you know,
making decisions and doingthings, and for me, that was
really hard to say, hey, wait, Iactually think I'm part of the
problem here, because I'mdemanding respect from people
whom I've never met before, whodon't even know if they want me
(42:18):
here, and who I have not spenttime with, to know how to lead
them. And so I ended up gettingcoaching where I sat down with
an EQ expert, and I really hadto do my own self examination of
what was insecure in me thatmade me go in and want to
dominate a room. What werephysical features about myself
that I couldn't help but that Iwould have to understand were
(42:39):
already working against me, andwhat was some of their problems
that I couldn't fix and manage,but that I could go in and help
manage a room by how I speak,how loud I am, how overbearing I
can be. And I really had to havesome humility. It was really
actually so humbling to realizethat part of loving God's
(43:01):
people, especially loving mysisters, was not going in and
just steamrolling, becausethat's just who I am, but
shepherding them, evenshepherds, shepherding
shepherds, that's what we do. Byunderstanding that my emotional
intelligence, my the way that Iunderstand how I'm wired, but
also caring for how they'rewired, would actually make me a
(43:21):
better leader as a woman in thechurch. And you know, I have a
whole chapter on what happenswhen your Paulette becomes your
solid. And you know, we onlyreally know bad leadership after
we've been under bad leadership.
And that season for me reallytaught me like, I don't want to
be a solid. I want to be aPaulette for women, and that's
going to take a lot of emotionalIQ. It's going to take a lot of
(43:43):
self searching and humility tosay, yeah, like this. Might be
preferring someone by not comingin and just screaming things
into a room, and it may notalways be effective, but I care
more about you than the way thatI'm going to lead right now.
Joshua Johnson (43:59):
Well, one of the things that you you just said
there is that you, you believedthat you needed to be a certain
way. Because of corporateAmerica, they were feeding you a
script of saying, This is howyou need to be. And so you
probably put on a mask and said,This is what I'm going to do,
and this is what leadershiplooks like. Because they've told
(44:20):
me this is what leadership lookslike. And throughout your whole
book this conversation, you'resaying women have been fed
scripts. They put on masks tosay, This is who I'm supposed to
be. This is what they tell meI'm supposed to be. How do we
remove those? How do we figureout who you truly are on the
(44:42):
inside, so that, I mean, thereis more trust and vulnerability
and community and belonging in aplace where people are who they
are instead of who people thinkthey should be. It's so
Natalie Runion (44:55):
important for all of us, women, to spend as
much time in the scriptures, inthe Word of God. As we can
because really, the words ofJesus tell us our identity. We
find out who we are as daughtersby being in the presence of God,
being in the word worshiping,being in biblical community,
where people speak to us, notnecessarily where we are, but
(45:17):
who we're becoming. And thosescripts are slowly rewritten as
we put ourselves in the presenceof God and in the presence of
people who have been with Jesus.
And that is something that Ithink a lot of women isolate
away from when we've beenwounded or we've been on a
church staff and not accepted orwanted as we just think, Fine, I
won't be part of it at all. AndI think those script rewrites
are so important. I also thinkas women, we need to stop
(45:39):
regurgitating scripts. And likeone example I use is whenever my
daughter would come home andtell me that a girl has been
mean to her, my knee jerkresponse was, Well, she's just
jealous of you. And that's justone script that women,
especially moms, will tell ourteenage daughters. And the truth
is, is that that's not a healthyscript to tell our kids, because
(45:59):
what we're saying is you need todiminish so that somebody else
won't be jealous of who you are,rather than saying, Honey, let's
really look at what's going onin that individual's home and
their relationship with theirparents, their grades, their
sports, rather than looking atthe source of what could be why
This girl has been mean orindifferent to my daughter,
(46:22):
rather than just saying thescript that just naturally rolls
off our tongue of Well, He'sjust jealous. And I want you to
think like that's just onescript, like there are hundreds
of others that we say becausethey were spoken over us. And so
we've got to start reframing.
How would Jesus handle thismoment with this individual. We
(46:42):
had a girl in here at the housewho was so dramatic. She was
just bringing all kinds ofdrama. And my daughter is not
drama. And I just thought, Lord,I don't know if I can manage
this. And I just felt them like,convict me. Like Natalie, you
were a drama queen at one time,too, and what made you dramatic?
You wanted to be heard. Youdidn't feel validated, and
nobody gave you any time of dayto, like, really unpack this.
(47:05):
Like, ask her what's going on.
And it was crazy, because I justwanted to be like, Honey, she's
just dramatic. She's just beinga drama queen. And it's like,
no, there's something deepergoing on here that is spiritual.
It's cultural. Like, let'sunpack that. And so it's really
been a shift for me, even inwriting this like man, what just
rolls out of my mouth carelesslyas a script that's impacting my
daughters and in their kids, sothat that's are their their
(47:29):
friends, and so that's beenconvicting, because I've
realized they're just almostlike comfort blankets.
Joshua Johnson (47:36):
What I love is that generations can can heal,
and there could be new, newdynamics within generations. And
it's not just you know our ourindividual generation, you know,
you and I are almost the sameage, like we come from the same
generation. We're hearing a lotof these scripts. We're trying
to heal from a lot of thesethings that we were, we've been
(47:58):
given in the church. But thereis a new generation coming up.
What has given you hope in newgenerations? Like what do you
see that's happening in the nextgeneration? Well,
Natalie Runion (48:11):
first of all, I don't know if anybody listening
is raising Gen Z or the Alphageneration, but they are the
most unbothered generation.
Probably default. I'm notglorifying it. It's probably
default, but they really theythey from the outside, they look
like they don't care. And Ithink it's because, finally,
with social media, good or not,they are seeing people who look
(48:32):
like them sound like them.
They're they're not going toschool dressed like the clueless
movie with their skirts andtheir vests are going in and
pajama pants and and their furryslippers and whatever they're
they're the most unbotheredgeneration. But with that also
comes a little bit of like, toomuch freedom, too much you do
you. And this is where we nowhave the body positivity
(48:54):
movement, where you can be obeseand it's glorified because you
just need to love the body thatyou're in. So we can, we can
swing the pendulum the otherdirection, too far. But what I
love about my daughter, myoldest daughter's friends, is
like, I invited them onto my Idon't even like women podcast,
and they're 16 years old, andthey're ready to go, you know,
like they're ready to talk aboutthe hard stuff. They love Jesus.
(49:17):
They are sharing the gospeleverywhere they go. They they
really are unafraid about someof the things that we were
terrified of as teenagers. And Ithink that that is a boldness
that the Holy Spirit has giventhis generation to see the Lost
Found. And I'm encouraged bythat, because I do believe
they're the generation that'sgoing to rewrite some of these
(49:38):
scripts, and we have to makesure that it doesn't go too far,
like my truth and some of thesescripts that we're hearing now,
but guide that so that we're notboxing them into our ways, but
giving them freedom to say,Okay, well, that might not
necessarily be a biblical truth,but how do we take that concept
of you are who you are by thegrace of God, not? I'm just
(50:00):
going to be whatever I want, butI am by who I am, by the grace
of God, and really foster thatto freedom and your identity in
Christ. And so I see them beingthe ones to help us even heal
from some of our scripts.
Joshua Johnson (50:12):
Yes, yes. And so we need to heal. So we've seen
the church move in the lastdecade or so, there's a lot of
unveiling. There's some healingthat still needs to take place.
But if you could say there maybe a script that needs to be
rewritten in the church rightnow, and to rewrite the script,
(50:34):
what? What script would yourewrite for the church today?
What would you tell the church?
Natalie Runion (50:41):
I would say that the old script has been by
whatever means necessary. Weneed to build this house with
numbers, programs, whatever itis, we need to get on all the
social media platforms. We needto have all the followers. And I
would say the new script is LoveGod, love people go and make
disciples. That is the newscript. The new script. The new
(51:02):
script is actually the originalscript, the original blueprint
that is whatever meansnecessary, not to build our
kingdom book, to build God'skingdom. And that could mean
losing people, that could meandeactivating a social media
account. That could mean givingmost of your tithes away to take
(51:23):
care of your community, whateverthat looks like, whatever means
necessary to build the kingdomof God, not to build our own
castles.
Joshua Johnson (51:30):
Let's do it. I love that script, so let's,
let's make that script areality. That'd be fantastic.
Natalie, I love a couplerecommendations from you,
anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend,
Natalie Runion (51:43):
well, the pastor's wives book that you
just talked about. It's AlisonBeth Barr, right? I always get
her Allison. Barr, Allison, Ialways do that. That book has
been so incredibly eye openingfor me. Just and how the title
pastor's wife, which might ifyou go over to London, you don't
say pastor's wife, they will,like, literally fry you right
(52:04):
there, because they believe thatwomen who serve by their
husbands are actually pastorstoo. So it's been crazy to read
her book and then to go over toLondon and to see that that has
been so encouraging. And I thinkthat's probably the one that
I've been holding on to themost, also Manny Arango,
crushing chaos. That book hasbeen absolutely just life
(52:26):
changing and just seeing how Godestablished order from the
beginning. And so if you lovebrilliant writing and you like
masculinity in writing, Mannycrushed that. He
Joshua Johnson (52:38):
crushes chaos, you're right. He really did? He
crushed it. Yeah, I think aboutthat a lot, crushing chaos.
It's, it's fantastic. I just,yeah, it reframed the way I
think about it, and a lot ofthings. And I use it all the
time in conversation. It'sfantastic. So I love that one.
(52:59):
That's good. Natalie, this book,I don't even like women, is
fantastic. I hope people go outand get it, and I hope that a
bunch of men go out and get itas well, that it's not just a
women's book. It does talk aboutwomen's relationships a lot, but
men would get a lot out of it. Iloved it. I love your writing.
(53:20):
So it's a lot of fun to read andget through. And the cover is
one of my favorite covers. Thereis so good. It is so good. So
that's I just, I just love Ireally do. I love the cover.
It's so much fun. Where wouldyou like to point people to to
get the book? And then whereelse can people find you. Point
(53:41):
people to the podcast that'scoming out. What's Where do you
like to point people to?
Natalie Runion (53:45):
Well, the book will come out September 2. It
will be on Amazon, Walmartbooks, a million Christian
books. And then everybody kindof hangs out over at the
Instagram account. Raised tostay. If you don't like
Instagram, you can go toFacebook under Natalie Runyon,
we have a nice, robust communityover there. And yeah, really, we
have three books in three years.
So if you're just getting toknow raised to stay, there's
(54:06):
three other two other books youcan get now in the waiting.
Joshua Johnson (54:11):
Perfect. Well, Natalie, thank you for this
conversation. It was so much funto have you back. So much fun
this conversation. Let's rewritethe script. Let's make room for
all women, there's somecollaboration that we don't need
to compete anymore, that wecould have spaces of trust and
vulnerability and grace with oneanother, that women can Shepherd
and that they could care forothers. We could figure out a
(54:36):
better way to be the church andbe the body of Christ. So
Natalie, thank you. This isfantastic. Thank you. Applause.
The words of Jesus tell us our identity. We
(00:03):
find out who we are as daughtersby being in the presence of God,
being in the word worshiping,being in biblical community
where people speak to us, notnecessarily where we are, but
who we're becoming. And thosescripts are slowly rewritten as
we put ourselves in the presenceof God and in the presence of
people who have been with Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (00:36):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact wecould make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, Iam so excited to have Natalie
Runyon back on the podcast. Hernew book carries the disarming,
almost tongue in cheek title. Idon't even like women and other
lies that get in the way ofsacred sisterhood, but beneath
(00:58):
that humor is something serious.
It's about the stories women aretold by churches, by culture, by
each other, and how thosescripts shape identity,
belonging and even faith itself.
What I really find compellingabout Natalie's work is the way
it pulls together multiplethreads. She's talking about
women's ministry, but she's alsotalking about something larger,
how communities form, how trustis broken, how gossip corrodes
(01:19):
and how forgiveness can remakeus. In her telling women's
ministry becomes a kind of casestudy for the bigger cultural
problem of scarcity versusabundance, whether we live as
though there's only one seat atthe table, or whether the
kingdom of God really is asexpansive as Jesus says it is,
this conversation sits in thattension. We talk about the
(01:40):
damage that's been done, butalso the possibility of healing.
We explore the work of rewritingold scripts into something
truer, more freeing, and we askwhat sacred sisterhood could
look like if women and men chosecollaboration over competition,
hope over cynicism, abundanceover scarcity. So this isn't
just about women's ministry.
(02:01):
It's about the way we all buildcommunities that either diminish
or dignify one another, and it'sabout what it means to believe
Jesus when He says there isenough. So join us. Here is my
conversation with Natalie.
Runyon, Natalie, welcome back toshifting culture. Thank you for
joining me again.
Natalie Runion (02:20):
It is so good to be back with you. Thanks for
having me. I'm excited to diginto
Joshua Johnson (02:24):
I don't even like women. It's a hilarious
title. It's it's funny. It comesfrom a story where you were
called into leading women'sministry. Just take me into
that. Why? Why this book? Whythis title? And what are you
trying to say here? You
Natalie Runion (02:40):
know, I had been in worship ministry for 20 plus
years. It had been my gatewayback into ministry, and my
family and I had just movedabout 1000 miles away for me to
be a worship pastor at this verylarge and successful worship
church. And about a year intothat assignment, I got pulled
into my boss's office and hesaid, you know, we think you're
(03:01):
a great worship leader, but wethink you have a teaching gift,
and we would like for you tomove into the women's pastor
role. And it felt just like therug got pulled out from under
me, because first of all, I wentto be a worship leader. That's
all I had really known how to doin the church. And I said to my
(03:21):
boss in that moment, out ofsheer emotion, like, why would
you guys do this to me? I don'teven like women. This isn't even
like a calling on my life. Andreally what was interesting
about that is I would spend fiveyears with those incredible
women at that church, and it'snow been something that as I
travel and I lead for women'sconferences and things like
that. I'll ask the women'spastors or the pastor's wife,
(03:45):
how did you get into this? Andnine times out of 10 they say
those exact words, I don't know.
I don't even like women.
Joshua Johnson (03:50):
And so it is a constant refrain that you're
hearing over and over again.
What do you think it is? What doyou think that is happening
within the church and women,
Natalie Runion (04:01):
I think there's two things. I think the first of
all, if we address the churchcomplication, it's that women's
ministry has been done poorly. Iwould say, since I was a little
girl, I can remember being withmy mom, who's a pastor's wife,
and they would have teas onSaturday morning, they would do
foot washing services, wherewomen kept their pantyhose on
(04:21):
like it was weird stuff, whereespecially teenage girls or
single women or working women,everything was sort of catered
to the stay at home mom or theChristian woman. And it wasn't a
safe place to bring your nonChristian friends. There wasn't
a lot of theology, it was a lotof almost like country club type
(04:44):
setting. And then we have theconversation of, why is this
such a thing for women in theworld? Well, I think we've been
having scripts written over us,from Hollywood to just our
culture alone that has beentelling us who we are and how we
should behave. That impacts ouridentity and how we see each
other honestly.
Joshua Johnson (05:04):
So what kind of the scripts that women are
starting to believe that theyhave taken into their lives,
they've made it part of theiridentity, that they have been
fed these scripts? What are someof the scripts that they've been
fed?
Natalie Runion (05:18):
I think some of the negative ones, and I named
those in each chapter, is thingslike women are so emotional,
like women are made to feelguilty for emoting, through
empathy, through sympathy,through anger. We're kind of
taught to be that proverbs 31woman, which we can talk about
later, but we're taught to bequiet, to control ourselves, and
(05:39):
if we can't do that, then we'renot being submissive, you know.
And all of those things thatChristian culture has sort of
told women, I think, from a notjust a Christian perspective,
but also just women in general,we've been told we're too
dramatic, that we're gossips,that we're Catty, that we're
competitive. And you hear thesethings since you're a little
(06:00):
girl on the playground, thingslike, Well, you can't play with
us, you don't look like us, oryou can't sit with us at recess.
And unfortunately, those scriptsthat have been written over us,
I'm not pretty enough, I'm nottalented enough, I'm not
athletic enough, those transferinto adulthood if they're not
dealt with in our early 20s and30s. So that mean girls become
(06:21):
mean women, and that's just ourreality.
Joshua Johnson (06:24):
I think that's that's something that we have to
do a much better job in thechurch, hands, in culture, and
especially when, when women hitadolescence, that's the as the
time where they're starting toreceive scripts. The the shift
into adolescence is when theythey come into a place where it
(06:46):
doesn't seem like there's theirmental health shifts a little
bit. They're not free to be whothey actually are because
they're starting to believethese these things. What do you
think needs to happen? How do wehelp not reinforce these scripts
over and over again, evenespecially when we're we're
raising girls like I would liketo, I'd like to stop this before
(07:09):
it becomes a huge problem, andwe have to reverse it and do all
the work that you're trying todo to actually help women come
back together and learn a betterscript.
Natalie Runion (07:18):
Trust Me, I'm raising teenage girls right now,
and it's taking everything in mypower to not transfer those
scripts of my life being a 90sgirl who was in purity culture,
also in the anorexic and bulimicand bulimic culture, the heroin
chic model phase, you know, howdo I not project onto my teenage
(07:38):
daughters the scripts that werewritten for me by Hollywood, by
the fashion industry and even bythe church, with the purity
culture movement to not shame mydaughters on the other spectrum
of things. And so it has beenreally my husband and I sitting
down and being like, how do werewrite these scripts? And the
only way to do it is throughknowing the Word of God and
(07:58):
speaking the Word of God overour kids, and not just our kids,
but any child who comes throughour door to have those scripts
that are negative rephrased intobiblical scripture conversation,
which they may not know thatwe're using the Bible. But when
kids come through my house, mydaughter's friends, I am always
saying things like, you arewelcome here. You are so
(08:20):
talented. You are so gifted atthis. We're so glad you're here
and just making sure that if anynegative script is being spoken
over them in their schools,teams at their home, that our
house is a place where thosescripts are being rewritten.
Joshua Johnson (08:34):
That's helpful, that it's not just your kids,
that's it's their friends, thatthey see it when they're coming
over that they see like, Oh, mymom, my dad. They're consistent
like this. This is real. It'snot just, you know, a false
thing that they just want topour into me, but as for my
friends and everybody, andhopefully that starts to shift
(08:58):
something in them. And I knowyou're to reinforce truth and to
reinforce who people truly areand their identity. It's going
to take a lot of work, right?
It's going to take over andover, especially that, you know,
when I hear one negative thingfrom somebody, I think about
that more than any of thepositive things that people say
about me over and over again.
(09:20):
And and I think that's part ofwhat's happening in the church,
too. I think one of the bigthings that is a problem, I
think, is gossip and women andmen, of course, but we're
talking about each other in anegative light. And if women's
ministry has become a countryclub, it starts to foster a
(09:41):
place of gossip. What's going onthere? Why is gossip happening?
Why is this a script that webelieve that we're Gossip Girls,
or you're cost of girls, like,what's going on?
Natalie Runion (09:53):
Well, you know, obviously in in James, I mean,
James addresses it like,basically, like your words are
going. To produce life anddeath, and it's like guiding a
horse with the bit in its mouth.
Like our words are going tocreate tension, it's going to
create either a place ofsomething to live and breathe or
something that is going to die.
And I mean, our words arecapable of giving life or
(10:17):
literally tearing someone down.
And I think that as Christians,we've gotten around this in
women's ministry by posing ourgossip as prayer requests or as
this is just general informationthat I think everyone should
know for the better of ourchurch and we we basically
package it in something superspiritual when really it's still
the gross thing James is talkingabout. And what happens then is,
(10:40):
in we become an unsafe sanctuaryof sisterhood. And when people
saw my title, you know, andother lies that we believe that
get in the way of sacredsisterhood, they're like, what
does that word sacred mean?
Like? And it's not hocus pocus.
It's saying that if something issacred, it's set apart. Our
sanctuaries are to be set apart.
(11:02):
And when women come into oursanctuaries, which could be our
homes, it could be our women'sgroups, it could be a small
group. It should be the safestplace in the world for them. And
when they share about a prodigalor a child who's on drugs or a
marriage that isn't going well,or a job loss, and then they
hear that is being spoken aboutin other areas outside of that
(11:24):
sacred sanctuary that is wherethere is a breach of trust. And
a lot of times, women will neverstep foot, not only back into
that event or that women's eventor group, but back into a church
and so gossip, I believe I kindof came up with my own
definition. Is really the egodemanding to be heard when it
has nothing of value to say. AndI think as Christian women,
(11:47):
there is a lot of stuff we canbe talking about that is not
each other, and we're wasting alot of precious time and losing
a lot of precious souls in ourgossip. How
Joshua Johnson (11:57):
do we build something better? So if you're
thinking about something where,hey, you're bringing women into
a space. It's supposed to be aset apart, sacred. There's some
trust building that hashappened, and then gossip breaks
that trust. They don't want toset foot in there again. How do
we build better spaces forwomen? What does this start to
(12:18):
look like? How is there truevulnerability, trust,
accountability and love andsupports within spaces for women
in the church,
Natalie Runion (12:29):
I was asking myself all those same questions
at 40 years old, when I'm handedeight congregations of women to
come together to have thiswomen's ministry, and you know,
I, I wasn't a sorority girl, soyou know, I wasn't like a large
group of women's kind of a girl,but I had noticed some of these
trends that were popping up fromOld Guard leadership. And I
thought we have this rareopportunity, you know,
(12:50):
transition is a great time forreflection, to really reframe
what women's ministry biblicallyshould look like. And what I
decided was that we would getaway from this model of it being
a free for all that anybody canhave a small group, anybody can
lead any study they want. It canbe done anywhere, and we brought
all of the women under one rooffor an entire year of leadership
(13:13):
training on learning how to havehard and holy conversations
under the watchful eye ofpastors and leaders who loved
them, cared for them and wouldtrain them on how to cut people
off if gossip started in aconversation, or would train
them how to lead. Well, weactually did. Pete scazza,
entire, Emotionally HealthySpirituality, emotionally
(13:36):
healthy relationships. We spentthree full years rewriting the
script of women's ministry whereI was, and it took every bit of
those three years to reframewhat a women's ministry should
look like. And basically, whatdoes it look like? It looks like
every woman serving the peopleof God with the heart of Jesus
and making sure that thepriority is care, Scripture and
(13:59):
love. And it was wild to watchit, because what happened was
pastors ended up not having tobe the first call when there was
a baby born or a spouse that wehad lost. Those women, the
people of God, caring for thepeople of God. I watched it with
my own eyes, and was there stillgossip? I'm sure there was. But
what we did is we held itaccountable. When we heard about
it, we dealt with it. We heldmeetings. We did not let it get
(14:22):
past us once we knew about it.
And I think for women, standingup to women is terrifying, but
we held women to a standard, andI think that that is something
that even in our neighborhoods,with our neighbors, with our
kids, friends, with our playdate friends, we can all say it
stops with me. I'm not listeningto this, I'm not participating
in this, but that takes prettymuch a solid resolve in our
(14:44):
spirits to say, I'm going to bethat person
Joshua Johnson (14:48):
that's so good.
We're having conversations likethat in our church. You know, as
we're we have home churchesaround so we're bringing our
home church leaders back in thisfall, we're going to start to go
through emotionally healthy.
Spirituality. We're gonna we'rewe're bringing people back in to
make sure that these they knowwhat they're doing, they're as
they're facilitatingconversations in their homes. I
(15:10):
think that's what you just said.
I think it's wonderful. Why?
Because now what you're you'rebuilding, you're building
shepherds for for women toactually, that are trained, that
know how to have good, solidconversations, know how to
facilitate those, know where togo, what to do. I mean, that is
(15:31):
so huge. It's not a free forall. That's a that's a big, big
thing. And what I love aboutthat is that you are enabling
women in women's ministry to bethe church, to not just be some
ancillary thing on the side ofthe church, but actually be the
church where they're at. How canwomen start to believe that they
(15:56):
are the church, that they have aspace where they can be with
others as the body of Christ.
Natalie Runion (16:06):
It's challenging, especially with how
churches have defined what womencan and cannot do. And I feel
like some women feelimmobilized, like, well, I can't
have the title pastor, sotherefore I can't Shepherd
anyone. And that's not true whenwe as individual Ecclesias say I
love God and I love people, andI have a pasture around me,
(16:26):
whether that pasture is yourplaygroup, your job, your
church, whatever that lookslike, God has entrusted sheep to
you, and it might look like yoursingle neighbor next door. It
might look like a teacher or theStarbucks barista, but God has
placed sheep in front of you whoneed to hear his name, who need
(16:46):
to know that they're validated,that they're beautiful, that
they're wanted. And I think wehave said, well, I can only do
ministry if I have this title,and I'm in a church, and we have
to remember women like from thevery beginning, God created us
to be different from men. Hecreated us to worship. He
created us to have a have arole, a name, a place and an
(17:07):
assignment. And I think we'veboxed ourselves in based off of
what people have said we can andcannot do when God says that we
are to go and make disciples andto love Him and to love people
and that right there we can doeverywhere we are.
Joshua Johnson (17:21):
I want to swerve a little bit back into your
story of hearing you're going tobe in women's ministry, but when
they said, We think you have ateaching gift, and I think it's
it's been born out throughoutnow your life and what you're
doing and what you have donesince then, the teaching gift is
(17:42):
real. It's there you have it,and you could, you could teach
well. So in those moments whereI think, because women are going
to have moments like this a lot,in those moments where you think
it's going to be one thing, it'sgoing to be worship leading, but
then it swerves into somethingelse. How do we deal with those
(18:04):
moments where God might bemoving us into a space where he
wants to, you know, use, use usfor something, for His glory,
when we think it's one way, butGod says, No, it's going to be
another. How do we deal withthose moments.
Natalie Runion (18:21):
Well, I'll be honest, I went kicking and
screaming. There was no like,there was no gentle exit for me,
and I'm grateful that the Lord,you know, he did have to pry
worship from my cold, deadhands. And I hate to admit that,
because I really had hoped at 40that I would be a more
surrendered woman. But I thinkmy identity was so wrapped up in
worship leadership that the Lordsaw that as something that was
(18:45):
almost a kryptonite, that if Ibelieved I could only do one
thing for the kingdom, then Iwould be stunted in my spiritual
growth, in my relationship withhim and my love for His church,
and he really had to over thecourse of that five year span,
and still working on me in thisis reminding me that we as God's
kids, are not one trick ponies,and for a lot of women, we do
(19:07):
get pigeonholed into roles atthe church that we didn't sign
up for, such as administration,kids ministry, women's ministry,
because it feels safe for ourmale brother. You know our
brothers to say this feels likea women centric role, and so a
lot of us do start out in thosepositions and then begin to
prove ourselves to be strong,teachers, leaders,
(19:30):
communicators, and I believe theLord gives us eyes to see it in
ourselves, but also shows ourbrothers like he did my pastor,
hey, this woman has something inher that she can't even see yet.
And so for my sisters, I wouldjust say, like there is going to
be a natural progression. Ibelieve, as the Lord continues
to build his church, that he'sgoing to trust us with more than
(19:52):
just the status quo in thechurch, and we have to be
willing to say, like Mary did,be it unto me, as you have said.
I don't know what I'm carrying.
I don't know that I have theHoly Spirit necessarily growing
in me yet, but I know thatthere's something in there, and
it's going to be a process tosee that come forth. But we, if
we're not careful, we willsettle for our good rather than
(20:12):
accepting God's best.
Joshua Johnson (20:15):
Exactly. So a lot of people are settling for
the status quo, and when we seethat what the church has been
doing, or there's women'sministry on the side, it is
status quo, and we're like, hey,we want to just blow up the
status quo and then start again.
But what you just articulatedthat it's going to be a process
to get to the other side. How dowe not just blow up the status
(20:39):
quo and just tear it all down,right? But have a process of
regeneration and growth intowhat is next and what is new and
what is better for the church.
Natalie Runion (20:56):
Well, I know we've all heard the saying that
you can't turn a ship in theocean too quickly that it takes
five miles to turn a giant shipin the ocean. Otherwise you'll
flip it. And I think that's whatI realized that once I was okay
with being in women's ministry,I was like, Okay, I see that
this culture needs shifted, butI can't just jerk the steering
(21:17):
wheel. I have to ease us intothese transitions. And really
what it was, was it took me backto that story of Deborah in
Judges, where it said that everyday she showed up to her palm of
Deborah and rightly judged thepeople of Israel. And what I
love about that story is thatshe was consistent to show up
under her palm every day, andthe battle that Barack invited
(21:39):
her into wasn't a day after shesat under her palm This was
after a long time of watchingher steward well that position
under that palm tree and bewhere she said she was going to
be, do what she said she wasgoing to do, and prove that she
heard from the Lord and shewould deliver the word of the
Lord, no matter how hard it wasto say what was needed to be
(22:00):
said. And I think for a lot ofwomen, we see this opportunity
to break glass ceilings in thechurch, and rather than wait for
the Lord to promote us throughstewarding our palm tree, we go
in with a hammer and just wantto demolish all systems and all
processes, probably with a goodheart, but we know that we can
(22:20):
have good intentions, but a badspirit, and I really have had to
check my heart in this entireseason of wanting to fight for
women and really strong placesof leadership in the church, but
without blowing up systems thatare actually not wrong. They
just need tweaks or worked on.
And I think as women, we cancollaborate together, not
compete, but collaborate. Seethat change brought gently into
(22:40):
the house of God, when
Joshua Johnson (22:44):
these glass ceilings or things that are
being broken, the culture isshifting, when women are moving
into positions of leadership, alot of the times it's the it's
other women that are not likingthat and trying to hold other
women back, and there is a lotof infighting. There's
competition. You said, how? Why?
Why isn't there collaborationamongst women? Why isn't there
(23:10):
more support amongst women? Whyisn't there more more love and
cheering on other women whilethings are shifting and
changing. I just say, when Iinterviewed Beth Allison Barr,
and she's like, it's actuallymore from the women than it is
from the men, I get much morepushback. And I was like, That
(23:33):
is crazy.
Natalie Runion (23:36):
Listen, first of all, Beth Allison Barr is the
goat. I just want to make itclear I am in the middle of her
new book, and I am blown away byher, and she's absolutely right,
and it's unfair for ourbrothers, and I've tried to
bring hopefully some peace to mybrothers and saying we're not
making it easy on you. So I wantto say that first, it's okay to
not know how to have theconversation, because I think it
(23:56):
is tender, but it shouldn't be.
It needs to be addressed. Ithink that what has happened
just traditionally over the last20 years is that there have been
one or two seats for women inany given role in the church, be
it an executive team, a pastoralteam, you name it, on the
worship team, there's one spotfor that one woman to back up
the worship leader, who's a man,to be in the room with all the
(24:19):
men. And so what happens iswomen come on to church staff.
And I just had a conversationwith my dear friend Becky
Johnson, who's the pastor atJesus culture now under banning
and she said women kind of wantthe best of both worlds. They
want to raise their kids and beout of the workforce for 1516,
years, and then they want tocome into the church and start
(24:41):
wanting to be boardroom Becky,as she called them. And I think
that's true. Women are like, no,it's time for me to use my voice
now, and they're still thinkingit's 20 years ago that there's
only one seat at this table. Andso rather than kind of coming
in, relearning culture,relearning the church as it is
today. Or they go in with thismentality of, I've got to fight
for my rightful seat at thisplace. It's my time. I'm 40
(25:04):
years old, 50, and our brothersare like, whoa, wait a minute.
Like, it's not that there's onlyone seat, but we really need to
make sure we're prayerfullyconsidering who is in these
positions and how we worktogether. And so there's women
that are kind of been in thisfor the last 20 years in the
church, and they're seeing, Ohno, there are more than one
seats, but there are some whoare just are a little bit
(25:26):
unhealed or wanting more power,and then there's no room for
collaboration. And so I justwant to say that I agree 100%
that we as women have createdthis competition that's not even
there anymore. And if we'redoing our jobs well, and we're
showing up like Deborah didunder our palm, the Lord is
going to open up doors like wecould never imagine. And it
(25:48):
isn't about how many seats thereare, it's has God entrusted you
with this seat? And if he has,then there doesn't need to be
competition, because there'salways going to be room at the
table. But I say thatcollaboration kills competition.
That's kind of what I havealways leaned on. And we as
women in the church have a longway to go in that.
Joshua Johnson (26:08):
I mean, that's the difference between right,
scarcity and abundance. Like, ifthere's a mindset like in the
kingdom, there's only one spotthere isn't enough where it's
always gonna be fighting withGod, there's always enough in
the kingdom, like that we havewe do have enough. This is why
we fight wars around the world.
This is everything as we believethat there's not enough for
(26:30):
everybody to go around, butthere is. So how do we flip that
script? How do we move out froma different place that is not a
place of scarcity anymore. Thekingdom of God is is bigger and
better and more beautiful thanwe can imagine.
Natalie Runion (26:51):
Well, I'll talk first to the men, because I do
think this is a question thathas been asked of me a lot
lately. And I would say numberone, just maybe take inventory
of who is sitting in thedifferent seats of your staff,
who is sitting in places ofleadership that have a voice and
a vote into how things aregoing. And if you notice that
there is only one seat for onewoman, it is possible that that
(27:14):
is creating some tension withinyour culture, that there is only
one woman who deserves orbelongs. Now it could be you
only have one woman, but arethere other women that you've
been identifying as a strongleader, as a faithful servant,
who you are like, You know what?
We actually could bring one moreinto this conversation, because
I think having at least twowomen at the table, it doesn't
(27:34):
make it feel so exclusive. So Iwould just say, if there's if
there's space, if there's space.
And there are candidates, notbecause you just need to put a
woman in a role, but there areactual people, women who would
be good for your organization.
Consider maybe not just havingone main worship woman up there
with five men, consider addingone more. If she's there and
(27:56):
she's called for women, we havegot to be each other's biggest
cheerleaders and biggestadvocates. And when I say that
collaboration kills competition,I say this when I walk into a
room, I will always praise atleast one other woman in my life
who was doing good work for thekingdom. And this year, I
realized I was overbooked. Icould not take any more speaking
(28:18):
engagements. And so what I didis I put out a social media post
of three of my friends who arekilling it as speakers and
conference speakers, and I said,Look, I'm booked, but I want you
to reach out to my girlfriends,who I trust with my whole life,
to love your church well. Andthey started getting calls
immediately. That wasn't becauseI felt sorry for them, it's
because I want their voices tobe heard, and I believe in what
(28:40):
God has placed inside of them.
And as a result of that, I getto scatter more seeds through
them, and my kingdom legacy, mymy role in the kingdom, expands
because of my sisterhood withthem. And so that's been
something I've been practicingglobally and locally, is to
really celebrate women doinggood Kingdom work, who are not
(29:01):
my competitions, but mycollaborators.
Joshua Johnson (29:03):
So let's build more collaboration, and let's
build more sacred sisterhood. Sogive us some more steps that I
mean you just you just named onethere, but more steps that that
women can do to build the sacredsisterhood within the church.
Natalie Runion (29:17):
We need to be what we needed when we were 20,
when we were 30, when we werestarting out, not just in
ministry, because this is beyondjust ministry, being a girl,
being a woman. It is every stageof life. We need women who have
already been where we are, whohave not necessarily conquered
it, but survived it, and somewords of encouragement and
(29:37):
prophetic words. And byprophetic words, I mean just
speaking scripture over us,praying over us, sending a text
message and saying, I see howhard this season of parenting
is, and you're crushing it. Weneed to as women, remember that,
first of all, we're all girlsgoing through this at the same
time. None of us have done thisbefore. I've never been a 45
year old woman before. I'venever raised. Age girls before.
(30:01):
I'm just as new as anyone. Butwhat I do know is that there are
women in my life who have and ifI need them, they're there for
me. And I think that weunderestimate and undervalue
mentorship and discipleship. Sowomen, be what you needed, and
then look for people who havebeen where you are or where
you're going, who you admire,and get coffee with them. Don't
(30:21):
be so prideful and think youjust have to, like, figure it
all out. You know? I think thenext thing is, is that we have
to put that pride down and startsearching for Sacred sisterhood
in a way that's intentional,which means your phone may not
be ringing with invites to goget coffee or lunch with a
woman, but somebody needs you,and it might feel like, well,
(30:41):
they should be reaching out tome. No, we're past that. So many
of us have isolated ourselvesthrough covid, through
parenting, through hard seasonsin our jobs, and some of us just
need to be intentional. And Iknow not everybody is
intentional. We're introverts orEnneagram number, whatever it
is, but community comes to thecommitted we we have to be
(31:03):
committed to finding community.
And finally, just remember thatjust because something bad
happened to you in one smallgroup at another church, or just
because one woman said somethingor did something to you 510,
years ago, at a church, thereare a lot of really good women
in the church, in small groupswho would love to have you part
of their community, and so don'tforsake community because of one
bad experience. I'm watchingwomen's ministry shift before my
(31:26):
eyes, and God is doing good workin his house.
Joshua Johnson (31:30):
Let's talk about forgiveness. If you've been hurt
for a long time. I mean,forgiveness is more for me than
it is for the person or that I'mforgiving, it's to get rid of
the chains that is around me sothat I could be free and move
into a space where I can trustagain. I could be vulnerable
(31:51):
again, I could actually have newrelationships. Why is
forgiveness important when wehave been hurt and we're moving
towards shifting into a new,better space.
Natalie Runion (32:05):
This year alone, I have seen more deliverance,
and yes, I'm using the worddeliverance from the
conversation of unforgivenessthan any other conversation that
I have had as a pastor,preaching from a pulpit, when I
say deliverance, I am talkingfull on women, weeping, going to
their knees, just completelyundone because of the hurt
(32:27):
they've experienced in church atthe hands of shepherds, pastors,
wives, women's ministries, andit is heartbreaking, and yet, at
the same time, those women arebeing fully delivered of
unforgiveness and stepping backinto community because the enemy
wants us to be so bound byunforgiveness. Not only that we
can't forgive, but we aren'tforgiven. The Scriptures tell us
(32:47):
that if we don't forgive, wewon't be forgiven. So you know,
church hurt won't kill you, butunforgiveness will. And there is
something about that that reallystarted to weigh on my heart.
And last year, this is very,very personal, but I had been
traveling the world tellingpeople forgive, heal. It's
amazing, and I'm in Canada onenight, and I realized, oh my
(33:09):
goodness, like I haven'tforgiven, and I was thinking of
this situation where I hadn'tforgiven people, and all of this
anxiety was in me, and I hadgained 30 pounds, and I thought
it was just traveling, but asI'm being convicted on the
platform as the preacher, I'mrealizing that the Lord is like
I want to do a work in you. AndI was radically healed in Canada
(33:29):
last May from unforgiveness, andthis year has been a pro. Has
been a process, becauseforgiveness isn't linear. But I
have lost all of that weight. Ihave been able to be in
conversation and community withthose people. And you know,
we're not like BFFs and braidingeach other's hair and stuff like
that, but we, I think of themwith a pure heart, and I think
(33:50):
that that's what so many of usjust need to remember, is that
healing isn't linear.
Forgiveness isn't linear. Butyou're right, releasing those
people make space for us, tomake room for safe people. And
so that process can be throughcounseling, through therapy,
through medication, through thechurch, but I'm telling you,
forgiveness is for all of us,and it's
Joshua Johnson (34:08):
from the Lord.
I've said this a few times, butnow I think that forgiveness is
the secret sauce to our lives,to the Christian faith, like it
is so huge and key, and it doesnot excuse what has been done to
you at all. It doesn't excusethat. It doesn't make it right.
It doesn't like absolve peoplefrom what they have done, but it
does set you free. Can you helpme then, as the church, what do
(34:31):
we do with women's ministry?
Then, like, what is this? How dowe reframe this? I know you're
you're talking to womenspecifically, but I want to
know, what do we we do? Do wekeep it as an ancillary
ministry? Do we fold everythingin together with everybody? How
(34:52):
does the How does it work to behealthy and whole, to bring
people into a place where theydo look more like Jesus and.
It's not just Country Club fair.
Natalie Runion (35:03):
I think that's independent for every church. I
think you have to look at yourchurch set up and say, What are
we set up for? Are we a smallgroup based church? Are we a
program driven church? Are wethe kind of church that heavily
relies on these ancillaryministries to bring people in?
Is it an outreach, or is it acountry club? Are we actually
multiplying when we do these orare we just spending a lot of
(35:26):
money to feed a bunch of womenwho would be here, regardless of
whether or not we were, youknow, spending 50 grand on an
event? I think that we have tolook at all of our ministries,
not just women's ministry, butMen's Ministry, all of it, and
say, Is it a source, or is it aresource? Because women's
ministry should never replaceSunday morning or your gathering
(35:46):
of the saints. Women's ministryshould never exhaust your staff.
It should never exhaust yourteam. It should never ask women
in your community to put outmore time and resources than
maybe an outreach event orcoming into church on a Sunday
morning and worshiping and sowhatever your church culture
values, I think women's ministrycan fit into it without it
(36:09):
looking like it did in 1995 andthe only way that you're going
to know this is by asking womenin your community what they want
from their time together withOther women, and also praying
and fasting and asking the Lord,Lord, what do you want for the
daughters of this house? And itcould be that you guys all clump
into one small group, and youjust have a small group ministry
(36:31):
that where some are single momsand some are multi generational,
and some are, you know, momswith kids, or working women, or
whatever it is, or it is thatonce a year you do a huge
conference where you bring in abig name, but you have to decide
not what is best for justwomen's ministry, but what is
going to bring as many peopleinto hearing the name of Jesus
(36:53):
Christ, weekly, monthly andevery year. And if that's a
conference, great if it's smallgroups, great if it's a weekly
women's gathering, awesome, butwhatever it is, it must point
people to Jesus first and thendraw them into community,
biblical sacred communitysecond. And if you can't do it
well, don't do it like I'mbegging you. Don't do it. If you
(37:16):
can't do it well, because you'llhurt people. You'll over promise
and under deliver, and you'llhurt women. And you just need to
do something that you can keepgoing with in your church
culture and and uphold your endof that bargain with whatever
you're offering them. So
Joshua Johnson (37:31):
you're saying that church should be about
Jesus and and community and notour programs. That's crazy.
That's crazy talk. Natalie, Ican't believe you said that. So
as we we look at Jesus the waythat he actually had
relationships with women andtreated women and had women with
him all the time, what can welearn from Jesus as we are the
(37:55):
embodiment of him now, and howwomen can have be friends and to
be with each other in community.
Natalie Runion (38:03):
I love how Jesus never saw women as a problem to
be solved. He wasn't likelooking at women who came into
his midst like, Oh, I've got todeal with this, right? There was
always invitation, conversation,evaluation. He was constantly
seeking, especially with thewoman at the well, there was
always an intention in thatconversation, and I think that
(38:25):
especially when we look at ourrelationship with pastors as
women, so many times we feellike we can't be in friendship
with the men on our staff orwith the men in the church,
because of all of the stigmasthat are around that. But what
I've learned is that whenshepherds Shepherd women, well,
it's with that sameintentionality, that same
question, that sameintentionality to to dig deeper.
(38:47):
And I can just say, from beingon a church staff, some of the
greatest moments ofencouragement were when my
pastor just looked at me andsaid, Hey, you're doing a great
job. Do you have any questions?
Is there anything that we can dofor you as a staff and and being
seen as a peer. Jesus made womenfeel as if they were peers with
those other men. He never madethem feel diminished. And even
in Acts. Chapter one, verse 12and 14, it says that all of the
(39:10):
disciples, the women included,decided they were in this till
the very end. And what were theydoing? They were having a
business meeting to figure outwho was going to replace Judas.
There were women that weretrusted with decisions that were
going to be made, and I I justbelieve that, as Jesus trusted
women, as Jesus invested intowomen, that we can do that in
the church now and still keepproper management in place. I
(39:34):
want to be very clear that Ilove biblical relationships
between men and women. I have ahusband who I love is the head
of my home. I have a male pastorand pastor's wife who I love,
being under their care and theirshepherding. I am not saying
that women should just take overand be able to do whatever they
want, but to understand thatthere is a co partnership in
(39:56):
this to. Bring people into thekingdom of God, and that's
important that we know how Jesustreated women, because we can
model then, not only how weallow ourselves to be received
by other people, but also how wetreat other people. And I'll be
honest, I've been treated betterby my brothers and my sisters.
And so I do think that this is aconversation that how did Jesus
(40:18):
treat women? It's not about howshould the men should treat the
women. I think that women weshould model. Yeah, Jesus
treated women.
Joshua Johnson (40:28):
Yes, exactly, exactly. That's that's sad to
me. If you've been treatedbetter by men than women, like
it. It doesn't need to be thatway. It really doesn't need to
be that way. There isn't a bigcompetition. There can be some
mutual flourishing betweenwomen. I really, really hope so.
(40:49):
So we're learning from Jesus.
One of the things that you, youwent through, you talked, I
think you touched on a littlebit, is about your emotional
intelligence and learning some,some EQ and so if you haven't
been treated well by women, whatis the journey towards emotional
intelligence? What's the journeyto actually figuring that out?
Natalie Runion (41:13):
It's crazy, because I had been in corporate
America for several years, and Ihad been taught, hey, you
actually have a leg up in thisbecause you're tall, you're
brunette, you dress well, andwhen you walk into a boardroom,
you're going to demand attentionin the room. So in corporate
America, I was being told thisabout you, that you're loud,
you're assertive, this is allgoing to work well for you. And
(41:36):
that's really as I was gettingfull time ministry opportunities
in churches, how then I ledteams. Was okay, well, this
seems to be something thatpeople desire, is transparency,
authority. And so I took thatwith me into church spaces where
people had not been in corporateAmerica, where there had not
been really any bottom lines andoversights and management. And
(41:58):
so when I came in, I wasn'tthere as the confident woman of
God, I was a steamroller. I wascoming in and just, you know,
making decisions and doingthings, and for me, that was
really hard to say, hey, wait, Iactually think I'm part of the
problem here, because I'mdemanding respect from people
whom I've never met before, whodon't even know if they want me
(42:18):
here, and who I have not spenttime with, to know how to lead
them. And so I ended up gettingcoaching where I sat down with
an EQ expert, and I really hadto do my own self examination of
what was insecure in me thatmade me go in and want to
dominate a room. What werephysical features about myself
that I couldn't help but that Iwould have to understand were
(42:39):
already working against me, andwhat was some of their problems
that I couldn't fix and manage,but that I could go in and help
manage a room by how I speak,how loud I am, how overbearing I
can be. And I really had to havesome humility. It was really
actually so humbling to realizethat part of loving God's
(43:01):
people, especially loving mysisters, was not going in and
just steamrolling, becausethat's just who I am, but
shepherding them, evenshepherds, shepherding
shepherds, that's what we do. Byunderstanding that my emotional
intelligence, my the way that Iunderstand how I'm wired, but
also caring for how they'rewired, would actually make me a
(43:21):
better leader as a woman in thechurch. And you know, I have a
whole chapter on what happenswhen your Paulette becomes your
solid. And you know, we onlyreally know bad leadership after
we've been under bad leadership.
And that season for me reallytaught me like, I don't want to
be a solid. I want to be aPaulette for women, and that's
going to take a lot of emotionalIQ. It's going to take a lot of
(43:43):
self searching and humility tosay, yeah, like this. Might be
preferring someone by not comingin and just screaming things
into a room, and it may notalways be effective, but I care
more about you than the way thatI'm going to lead right now.
Joshua Johnson (43:59):
Well, one of the things that you you just said
there is that you, you believedthat you needed to be a certain
way. Because of corporateAmerica, they were feeding you a
script of saying, This is howyou need to be. And so you
probably put on a mask and said,This is what I'm going to do,
and this is what leadershiplooks like. Because they've told
(44:20):
me this is what leadership lookslike. And throughout your whole
book this conversation, you'resaying women have been fed
scripts. They put on masks tosay, This is who I'm supposed to
be. This is what they tell meI'm supposed to be. How do we
remove those? How do we figureout who you truly are on the
(44:42):
inside, so that, I mean, thereis more trust and vulnerability
and community and belonging in aplace where people are who they
are instead of who people thinkthey should be. It's so
Natalie Runion (44:55):
important for all of us, women, to spend as
much time in the scriptures, inthe Word of God. As we can
because really, the words ofJesus tell us our identity. We
find out who we are as daughtersby being in the presence of God,
being in the word worshiping,being in biblical community,
where people speak to us, notnecessarily where we are, but
(45:17):
who we're becoming. And thosescripts are slowly rewritten as
we put ourselves in the presenceof God and in the presence of
people who have been with Jesus.
And that is something that Ithink a lot of women isolate
away from when we've beenwounded or we've been on a
church staff and not accepted orwanted as we just think, Fine, I
won't be part of it at all. AndI think those script rewrites
are so important. I also thinkas women, we need to stop
(45:39):
regurgitating scripts. And likeone example I use is whenever my
daughter would come home andtell me that a girl has been
mean to her, my knee jerkresponse was, Well, she's just
jealous of you. And that's justone script that women,
especially moms, will tell ourteenage daughters. And the truth
is, is that that's not a healthyscript to tell our kids, because
(45:59):
what we're saying is you need todiminish so that somebody else
won't be jealous of who you are,rather than saying, Honey, let's
really look at what's going onin that individual's home and
their relationship with theirparents, their grades, their
sports, rather than looking atthe source of what could be why
This girl has been mean orindifferent to my daughter,
(46:22):
rather than just saying thescript that just naturally rolls
off our tongue of Well, He'sjust jealous. And I want you to
think like that's just onescript, like there are hundreds
of others that we say becausethey were spoken over us. And so
we've got to start reframing.
How would Jesus handle thismoment with this individual. We
(46:42):
had a girl in here at the housewho was so dramatic. She was
just bringing all kinds ofdrama. And my daughter is not
drama. And I just thought, Lord,I don't know if I can manage
this. And I just felt them like,convict me. Like Natalie, you
were a drama queen at one time,too, and what made you dramatic?
You wanted to be heard. Youdidn't feel validated, and
nobody gave you any time of dayto, like, really unpack this.
(47:05):
Like, ask her what's going on.
And it was crazy, because I justwanted to be like, Honey, she's
just dramatic. She's just beinga drama queen. And it's like,
no, there's something deepergoing on here that is spiritual.
It's cultural. Like, let'sunpack that. And so it's really
been a shift for me, even inwriting this like man, what just
rolls out of my mouth carelesslyas a script that's impacting my
daughters and in their kids, sothat that's are their their
(47:29):
friends, and so that's beenconvicting, because I've
realized they're just almostlike comfort blankets.
Joshua Johnson (47:36):
What I love is that generations can can heal,
and there could be new, newdynamics within generations. And
it's not just you know our ourindividual generation, you know,
you and I are almost the sameage, like we come from the same
generation. We're hearing a lotof these scripts. We're trying
to heal from a lot of thesethings that we were, we've been
(47:58):
given in the church. But thereis a new generation coming up.
What has given you hope in newgenerations? Like what do you
see that's happening in the nextgeneration? Well,
Natalie Runion (48:11):
first of all, I don't know if anybody listening
is raising Gen Z or the Alphageneration, but they are the
most unbothered generation.
Probably default. I'm notglorifying it. It's probably
default, but they really theythey from the outside, they look
like they don't care. And Ithink it's because, finally,
with social media, good or not,they are seeing people who look
(48:32):
like them sound like them.
They're they're not going toschool dressed like the clueless
movie with their skirts andtheir vests are going in and
pajama pants and and their furryslippers and whatever they're
they're the most unbotheredgeneration. But with that also
comes a little bit of like, toomuch freedom, too much you do
you. And this is where we nowhave the body positivity
(48:54):
movement, where you can be obeseand it's glorified because you
just need to love the body thatyou're in. So we can, we can
swing the pendulum the otherdirection, too far. But what I
love about my daughter, myoldest daughter's friends, is
like, I invited them onto my Idon't even like women podcast,
and they're 16 years old, andthey're ready to go, you know,
like they're ready to talk aboutthe hard stuff. They love Jesus.
(49:17):
They are sharing the gospeleverywhere they go. They they
really are unafraid about someof the things that we were
terrified of as teenagers. And Ithink that that is a boldness
that the Holy Spirit has giventhis generation to see the Lost
Found. And I'm encouraged bythat, because I do believe
they're the generation that'sgoing to rewrite some of these
(49:38):
scripts, and we have to makesure that it doesn't go too far,
like my truth and some of thesescripts that we're hearing now,
but guide that so that we're notboxing them into our ways, but
giving them freedom to say,Okay, well, that might not
necessarily be a biblical truth,but how do we take that concept
of you are who you are by thegrace of God, not? I'm just
(50:00):
going to be whatever I want, butI am by who I am, by the grace
of God, and really foster thatto freedom and your identity in
Christ. And so I see them beingthe ones to help us even heal
from some of our scripts.
Joshua Johnson (50:12):
Yes, yes. And so we need to heal. So we've seen
the church move in the lastdecade or so, there's a lot of
unveiling. There's some healingthat still needs to take place.
But if you could say there maybe a script that needs to be
rewritten in the church rightnow, and to rewrite the script,
(50:34):
what? What script would yourewrite for the church today?
What would you tell the church?
Natalie Runion (50:41):
I would say that the old script has been by
whatever means necessary. Weneed to build this house with
numbers, programs, whatever itis, we need to get on all the
social media platforms. We needto have all the followers. And I
would say the new script is LoveGod, love people go and make
disciples. That is the newscript. The new script. The new
(51:02):
script is actually the originalscript, the original blueprint
that is whatever meansnecessary, not to build our
kingdom book, to build God'skingdom. And that could mean
losing people, that could meandeactivating a social media
account. That could mean givingmost of your tithes away to take
(51:23):
care of your community, whateverthat looks like, whatever means
necessary to build the kingdomof God, not to build our own
castles.
Joshua Johnson (51:30):
Let's do it. I love that script, so let's,
let's make that script areality. That'd be fantastic.
Natalie, I love a couplerecommendations from you,
anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend,
Natalie Runion (51:43):
well, the pastor's wives book that you
just talked about. It's AlisonBeth Barr, right? I always get
her Allison. Barr, Allison, Ialways do that. That book has
been so incredibly eye openingfor me. Just and how the title
pastor's wife, which might ifyou go over to London, you don't
say pastor's wife, they will,like, literally fry you right
(52:04):
there, because they believe thatwomen who serve by their
husbands are actually pastorstoo. So it's been crazy to read
her book and then to go over toLondon and to see that that has
been so encouraging. And I thinkthat's probably the one that
I've been holding on to themost, also Manny Arango,
crushing chaos. That book hasbeen absolutely just life
(52:26):
changing and just seeing how Godestablished order from the
beginning. And so if you lovebrilliant writing and you like
masculinity in writing, Mannycrushed that. He
Joshua Johnson (52:38):
crushes chaos, you're right. He really did? He
crushed it. Yeah, I think aboutthat a lot, crushing chaos.
It's, it's fantastic. I just,yeah, it reframed the way I
think about it, and a lot ofthings. And I use it all the
time in conversation. It'sfantastic. So I love that one.
(52:59):
That's good. Natalie, this book,I don't even like women, is
fantastic. I hope people go outand get it, and I hope that a
bunch of men go out and get itas well, that it's not just a
women's book. It does talk aboutwomen's relationships a lot, but
men would get a lot out of it. Iloved it. I love your writing.
(53:20):
So it's a lot of fun to read andget through. And the cover is
one of my favorite covers. Thereis so good. It is so good. So
that's I just, I just love Ireally do. I love the cover.
It's so much fun. Where wouldyou like to point people to to
get the book? And then whereelse can people find you. Point
(53:41):
people to the podcast that'scoming out. What's Where do you
like to point people to?
Natalie Runion (53:45):
Well, the book will come out September 2. It
will be on Amazon, Walmartbooks, a million Christian
books. And then everybody kindof hangs out over at the
Instagram account. Raised tostay. If you don't like
Instagram, you can go toFacebook under Natalie Runyon,
we have a nice, robust communityover there. And yeah, really, we
have three books in three years.
So if you're just getting toknow raised to stay, there's
(54:06):
three other two other books youcan get now in the waiting.
Joshua Johnson (54:11):
Perfect. Well, Natalie, thank you for this
conversation. It was so much funto have you back. So much fun
this conversation. Let's rewritethe script. Let's make room for
all women, there's somecollaboration that we don't need
to compete anymore, that wecould have spaces of trust and
vulnerability and grace with oneanother, that women can Shepherd
and that they could care forothers. We could figure out a
(54:36):
better way to be the church andbe the body of Christ. So
Natalie, thank you. This isfantastic. Thank you. Applause.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.