Ep. 337 Hanna Reichel - An Emergency Devotional for Such a Time As This - Shifting Culture

Episode Transcript
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Hanna Reichel (00:00):
Regardless of where you find yourself now, and

(00:02):
regardless where you still willbe in five minutes and half a
year down the road and so forth,there will be something that you
can do in terms of a Christianwetness that will make a
difference you

Joshua Johnson (00:20):
Joshua, hello and welcome to the shifting
culture podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, in moments
when the world feels unsteady,when polarization, fear and
rising authoritarianism seem tocloud our vision. How do we root

(00:42):
ourselves in something deepertoday, on shifting culture, I'm
joined by theologian HannahReichel to talk about her new
devotional for such a time asthis, Hannah draws on the
history of Germany, the witnessof the Confessing Church and the
larger story of Scripture tohelp us ask, where are we in
God's story, and how do we livefaithfully in the middle of the

(01:03):
storm? This conversation isabout finding calm When
Everything Feels chaotic, aboutcultivating discernment and a
culture of distraction, andabout learning to resist fear
with joy, hope and community.
Hannah reminds us that faith andresistance isn't about doing
everything all at once. It'sabout discerning what God is
calling us to here and now, andjoining with others in a witness

(01:24):
that makes a difference. Solet's step into this story
together. Here is myconversation with Hannah. Rachel
Hannah, welcome to shiftingculture. Thanks for joining me.
Thank you for having me. Youknow this emergency devotional
that you have out for such atime as this, I think is really
important today. But as you sayin your book, there is nothing

(01:49):
new under the sun. It feels likewe are in this moment that is
new to us. We have to figureout, how do we situate
ourselves? Where are we going?
What are we doing? But we'vebeen here before in the history
of the world, you actually makeparallels between what was
happening about 100 years ago inGermany to what's going on a

(02:12):
little bit in the United Statestoday and in the world. So take
me into this knowing that we arein cycles of some of the same
things. Where are we situateourselves? Where are we in the
story? And why do you useGermany as a starting point for
us to situate ourselves?

Yeah, thank you for these questions, and I'll
start on some of them, and thenyou steer me back. If I, if I
forget, will do Yeah. Yeah. Imean, I feel I hear so often,
right? We live in unprecedentedtimes or or even just the sense
when I open the news and I seewhat's happening in politics in
America today, that I get thesense of doom and like things
are many things are happening,and many of them are terrifying,

(02:56):
and that it's easy to getoverwhelmed by that feeling, and
it is obviously also reallyfrightening, and I don't want
to, like downplay any of that,but to, on the other hand, also
kind of pause and say, yeah,maybe there's something in the
cycle of any empire wherethere's a downward slide at some
point and then it tips into intoforms of decline that also come

(03:17):
with unrest and Violence and allkinds of conflict. And also,
really, Christians have beenliving under different forms of
governments and different formsof empires for the for all of
history. And to say, in someways, this is not unprecedented.
It is terrifying, because itaffects us right here, right
now. It affects our loved onesand communities that we care

(03:39):
about. And all of that is true.
And at the same time, we canmaybe tap into the wisdom of
that larger tradition and say,right, those who have also lived
in times that were terrifyingand politically unstable and so
forth, what do they have tooffer us? And yeah, you rightly
say, right? I mostly tap intothe history of of Germany 100
years ago. This is by and largebecause of the history I'm most

(04:02):
familiar with. I'm originallyfrom Germany. I've been living
in the States for slightly lessthan a decade now, so I have a
little bit of skin in the game,as well as here on the ground
with my job and my life here.
But I grew up in post warGermany, in a culture that was
very much shaped by historicalmemory, right of the Holocaust,
of the Third Reich, of grapplingwith, how can a political system

(04:26):
go so wrong? How can so manypeople go along with it? Why
could this not have been stoppedearlier? Or might it have and so
forth, and or also being raisedin this posture of Never again?
And also as a scholar, I'm atheologian, systematic
theologian. I've worked a lot onKarl Barth and the history of
the Confessing Church, which issometimes kind of stylized into

(04:47):
the the what kind of figures asthe resistance against Nazi
Germany in that time. There areobviously scholarly debates on
how strong of a resistance thatactually was. They did not go
and take down the Nazis. Theydid not go and even really
defend their Jewish fellowcitizens all that much, but they
did, in a decisive moment, kindof say the state should not have

(05:09):
or not claim this absolute powerinto people's lives. And when it
does, then the church has tostand up and has to confess its
faith and has to say there arelimits to what the state can can
do and can demand, also in termsof loyalty and allegiance and
obedience of its citizens. Andthat moment with the barman
theological declaration alsobecame kind of a model for other

(05:32):
Christians and other momentssince to do something similar.
So partially, I'm drawing onthis history because of that,
but not necessarily because it'sso heroic or so stellar, but
also because it's, it's deeplymessy, right? When you're in the
midst of of these kinds ofmoments, it's actually very hard
to know, you know, you do havesome villains, but mostly you
have kind of people that aremuddling along and trying to

(05:55):
figure out what's happening andto do the best that they can.
And then, you know, you judgeand we should judge them in
hindsight, but at the same time,when we are in the situation of
trying to figure out what to do,that is, yeah, it's not, it's
not all that easy and to kind ofactually tap into that
complexity. But I also want tosay I don't think Nazi Germany

(06:16):
or the Weimar Republic, with thekind of Demise of democracy and
a slide into authoritarianism,is the only sensible parallel
and the only crucial historicalresource that we should tap
into. It's just the one that I'mmost familiar with. In many
ways. It's kind of an overleveraged comparison that we see
people make, and I hope otherpeople make other comparisons
and tap into other kind ofsources of wisdom. And I Oh, I

(06:38):
also don't want to say it's notprimarily a historical book,
right? It's, it's alsodevotional, right? I use
passages of Scripture, and Ikind of just try to invoke this,
this sense of a greater cloud ofwitnesses that has come before
us, and I draw historically onspecific witnesses that I know
better than others. But yeah,the not yet. None of it is
particularly new. I

want to go back into the Confessing Church, and
what we could learn from that,and then maybe what we could do
better going forward. But humorme for a second, because I'm
fascinated by this. How hasGerman culture changed and
shifted in a place of your neveragain culture of we don't want

(07:19):
this to happen? Are there waysthat Germans as culturally, are
they more tentative to takeaction or enact things? Or what
has happened after World WarTwo, the fall of Nazi Germany,
after the fall of the BerlinWall, like all of this, shift
has taken change. What's the theculture like in Germany, and how

(07:44):
has that affected Germans andtheir core identity?

Oh, yeah. Well, that's a that's a big question,
yeah. I mean, one of the thingsthat is, I mean, one of the
things that is quite differentto the American context. First
of all, was Germany did not havea long and strong democratic
tradition, its own history of ofa democracy was pretty short
lived. It had, in the beginningof the 20th century come out of

(08:09):
another brutal war, the FirstWorld War, that which it had
started right with aggressivenationalism and the sense of we
should be greater than we are,and we demand more. A piece of
the pie in this world which wentwas terrible and went terribly
wrong, and then they had to paya big price in terms of
reparations and and economichardship, and also assuming,

(08:30):
kind of politically, the soleguilt or what had happened,
which also created a lot ofgrounds of resentment for, you
know, all the people who thenkind of just suffered under The
day to day, economic hardships,dismantling of industries and so
forth. And it became very easyfor then the the demagogues, to
kind of tap into the sense ofbetrayal, resentment and wounded

(08:54):
pride. And I think that is thatis maybe, then one of the perils
that we can see today, that wesee a politics, politics that is
able to harness these kinds ofemotions and people that are
there that have have reasons,right? But then they use these,
these emotions to kind of createa sense of new national unity,
pride, very aggressive type ofmuscular rhetoric and blaming

(09:18):
frame, blaming outside forces,blaming internal, foreign
elements or just scapegoating,right, both minorities and
whoever is perceived or stylizedinto an enemy. I think that's
one of the really disconcertingparallels after the Second World
War, and Germany was, you know,lost fully and completely. That

(09:39):
war and was was quitedevastated. There were different
kinds of movements. There was aquick movement to also say there
needs, and I'm now mostlytalking about within the German
churches, to also say we need toconfess our guilt and what
happens? And the famous firstconfession of guilt that
happened then was one that in.
That basically said, we blameourselves for not having done

(10:01):
more to prevent this, not havingloved more fiercely, not having,
you know, believed morefaithfully, not having not
having stood in our faith sofirmly that we could have done
more about it. And that wasreally controversial at the
time, because some people said,Well, why should we actually
take responsibility, and whyshould we confess? Because,

(10:22):
after all, most of us haveactually lived under a
repressive, oppressive andtotalitarian state. Most of us
were not the worst perpetrators,but had actually to fear for our
own lives, and many people weretargeted, especially also in the
churches, who did do more and soforth. But then others said,
right? Like, this is really nota confession of guilt at all.

(10:42):
It's just saying, like, I wish Ihad done more, which is, you
know, that's not. And otherssaid we actually need to own,
and these were people who cameout of the Confessing Church,
for a big part, we need to own,actually, our part in this, also
ideologically, right? Where werewe even in our Christian faith?
So wrapped up with this projectof nationalism. Where did we
believe that our culture, in theway that it had been informed by

(11:06):
the Christian faith, wasactually superior to other
cultures? Where? So where do weactually have, not just in terms
of what we didn't do, but butlike more deeply in the very
ideological structures, in thevery cultural embeddedness of
it, all of it all, where do weactually find that we were more
complicit and we would like tobe, and what does that mean

(11:26):
going forward? So there was someof that also going on, but it
took a couple of generations,and there were also big projects
of the allied forces that then,kind of occupied Germany helped
with us to a certain degree, tosay there must be grassroots
democratic re education. Andthere must be a big portion in
the in the public education,which everyone goes through in
Germany. More is that you knowyou have to learn about this

(11:49):
history, and you have to learnhow to be watchful for the kinds
of signs that lead to it. Andyou have to really learn why we
say never again and to whatexactly and and that's, that's a
very strong legacy, apart fromthe, you know, the the kind of
official trials of some of theperpetrators, which there were
some kind of big and publiccases, but there were also many

(12:10):
that escaped and much that wasleft undone, right? We did also,
over generations, have kind ofpeople who were, you know, just
served in the institutions, inthe Nazi bureaucracy, who
basically then kept serving, andthen just, you know, changed
their colors externally. And sowhile there is, on the one hand,
a very strong kind of publiceducation and culture that is

(12:33):
very critical of that history,we've also always had surges of
Neo Nazis in different momentsof time. And now we even see
rises of alt right parties thatsometimes openly flirting with
ancestry, and sometimes morethan that, and tapping into many
of the same tropes. And that'sthat's really frightening,
because right one would thinkright that, if you know, maybe

(12:55):
this is this the place wherereally people should have come
to the conclusion that somethinglike that should never be viable
again. So I'm not, I'm not goingto say that we're an absolutely
stellar example. I think so. Onthe one hand, there is kind of a
strong cultural sensitivity toauthoritarian structures, and to
say we need to preserve a kindof base democratic culture. And

(13:15):
what does that mean? Andobviously also huge warning
flags against anti semitism andthe protection and for the
protection of Jewish life, whichwas basically virtually
eradicated in Germany, right?
But it's also an ongoingstruggle, and we also see rising
authoritarian tendencies andrising nationalist tendencies in
Germany as well. And, yeah,fascinating,

and it parallels a little bit of what's happening
in the United States. So we seesome authoritarianism, some
nationalist policies that aretaking place at the moment you
start your devotional. The veryfirst devotion there is about
finding calm in the storm, withpolarization, with our attention
economy, where everybody isvying for attention all the

(13:59):
time, it feels like a storm forso many people, and they don't
know how to find calm, and soyou're trying to root us at the
very beginning to find calm sothat we could walk through what
we are facing. How do we rootourselves in such a way to find
calm in the storm?

I wrote this most like this became my own
spiritual practice, basically,right? So when, when Trump first
assumed office, and I just foundmyself Doom, spiraling and just
trying to follow this onslaughtof executive orders, and some of
them were, in and of themselves,really frightening, because they
were targeting, you know,specific communities and and
they were dismantled, startingto dismantle certain democratic

(14:40):
structures and and that so likethe individual content demanded
a lot of attention. What ishappening here right now? With
whom do I need to, you know,conspire to make a statement
against this? Or where do I needto watch out for my neighbors
here and at the same time? Andwe know this right? There was
also this whole, this was part.
Of the strategy to, like, do somuch at the same time that it

(15:01):
will just leave everyone inshock and awe, and enough of
itself imbue the sense ofinevitability and absolute power
like nothing can stop this. Thishas been prepared. They're just
now marching through and youbetter, kind of, you know, the
one thing is that you'reactually not able to, you know,
Sue all that needs to be sued atthe same time, and like even the
media to keep up with theattention. But the other thing

(15:23):
is just this impression that youget of this huge and massive
shift that is happening, andthat we know that's part of the
authoritarian playbook, right tokind of project this image of
strength that then kind ofbecomes self fulfilling, and
that's the giving into that fearand into that impression, in and
of itself, is kind of part ofwhat allows for that. And this

(15:43):
is what gave me pause a littlebit. And this is also one of the
things where I found where thatimmediately felt like this is a
moment where we tap into ourresources of faith, because we
can do a lot of politicalanalysis, we can also do a lot
of theological analysis. And italso seems something more is
needed. There needs to be adifferent kind of grounding.

(16:03):
There needs to be a differentkind of posture. There needs to
be a different kind of like aplace to stand on from where to
then kind of source theattention and the and the
strength and the integrity tonow deal with everything that's
happening for me, the the storyof Jesus and the storm, right?
Where Jesus sleeps in the boat,just was such a wonderful image
for that moment to say, thestorm is real, right? And in

(16:27):
that history, it's not in thatstory, in the Gospel story, it's
not it's not made up. It's notjust an illusion. It's not that
disciples are just fearful outof misinterpretation of what is
happening. It is actually lifethreatening, and at the same
time, like the panic doesn't getyou anywhere, and finding that
place of calm is actually whatallows you to then respond to

(16:47):
what is happening in a way thatmight be more life saving for
you and others. And so really,this is what I've tried to do
with the book as a whole, tokind of write very little
lessons that kind of not justilluminate what is happening and
explain or whatever. I'm nottrying to explain, actually
much, but but to come to thisdifferent kind of ground from

(17:09):
where to then reflect and thinkand pray and take action. But
it's almost a kind of liturgicalmovement of gathering before we
can be sent again, of liketurning inwards and before we
can turn outward again.

So that turning inward phase, and that part, as
we're gathering in, as we'redoing that, how do we start to
then ground ourselves in theground, in the dirt, saying, I'm
here with God, and then start tohave some discernment of what is
actually going on. I think oneof the the big things that

(17:48):
people are struggling with istheir area of discernment of
what is good, what is faithful.
Where are we headed? What are wedoing? Because there's so much
information constantly barragingus. Discernment is really
difficult for most people. Howdo we then start to discern?
What does discernment look like,and how do we know that? Okay,

(18:10):
I'm grounded now. I could go inthe right direction. So

first of all, I think it has to be as a communal
process, right? It has to be aprayerful process, where it's
not just me doing my owndiscernment, but I do this with
God and in space that I don'thave to do this alone, and then
I also do it together withothers, which give me the
benefit of having soundingboards and having different
voices and having some sense ofsolidarity and community, and

(18:37):
others who can hold my despairwhen I'm despairing, and I can
hold theirs when they are butalso a division of labor at the
end of the day that I don't haveto attend to all the things. The
body of Christ is large. It isdiverse. There are different
members that have differentabilities, different positions
and different kinds of accessand different possibilities of

(18:59):
doing things. And it is not thatthere's the one thing that
everyone must do at this time. Ithink that's really important.
And at the same time, there's noone who cannot do anything. And
so kind of in that, in between,say, right, what is it that I
can do here now, which, for meis also, this is maybe in the

(19:21):
kind of Reformed sense of whatconfession is, right? It's not
these universal creeds or theuniversal, timeless statements,
but it is, what do we have tosay here and now and so that
every community kind of has todo that in their own moment in
time. It's tentative and it'sopen to revision and critique,
and it's also demanded, right?
You cannot not say anything andnot do anything. But it kind of,

(19:43):
first of all takes this burdenof, like it must be the whole
thing and all the things at thesame time and immediately,
right, and whatever, yeah. Butapart from this, and I, for me,
the liturgical structure reallybecame very helpful. Here as
well, to also say, I don't haveto do all the portions of it at
the same time. And I startedkind of writing individual

(20:04):
things, because I had, like,these voices in my head of like,
oh, this thing from bonifer,this might be applicable to
here, or this insight from, youknow, that moment in history of
the Confessing Church. But thenas I started writing individual,
small lessons, they also, youknow, they started moving around
and then kind of falling intoplace and assembling into the
shape where I was like, Oh, thestructure is also something that
that is important here. It's notjust that I'm trying to

(20:28):
communicate particular lessons,but there's a process where we
first gather and reflect andalso confess and reorient
ourselves, and then we are opento to listen anew to the Word of
God. And then we're open to alsorespond and discern what that
response looks like. And then wehave practices that kind of
deepen the communion and thecommunity. And these are the

(20:52):
ancient practices of prayer andand communion and and memory and
and, and, yeah, sacramental andcommunal practices, ecclesial
practices, they can also havedifferent faces. But I think the
actual ecclesial practices serveus well here as well. And then
there's a moment of kind ofbroadening out right and going
out into the world. And so I'malso trying to kind of walk

(21:14):
through different steps of whatthat might look like, rather
than systematically look at whatit is that is to be done or that
is to be said.

It kind of reminds me, as we're rooting
ourselves in the story of Godand the story of Scripture, of
knowing where we are in thestory helps us also rightly
situate ourself and thatliturgy, church calendar, just
rehearsing the story helps usknow, okay, I'm here, and this

(21:44):
is where we are in the story.
This is what's coming next. Thisis where we came from. So how
does that help us? How does likestory, the story structure,
knowing the story of God andhumanity, help us in what you're
trying to do for us here?

Well, I think, first of all, it can, it can
broaden our perspective, and itcan give us this greater hope,
right, that if in whatevervalley that we're currently in,
this is not the whole picture. Ithink that is really important,
and it gives us also, I think, adifferent appreciation for
people who have come before usright to say they might, they

(22:23):
might have been in a slightlydifferent place. What they did
might not be exactly what I haveto do now, but I can also
appreciate what they could do,or had to do, or felt they were
able to do in their own moments.
I might learn from theirmistakes as well, but I can,
yeah, I can kind of both trustin God's accompaniment of the
process as a whole, and ofwhatever feels like an imminent

(22:44):
threat and even an end of a kindof world, right? This is not the
end of the whole world. This isat the end of the day, still,
God's world. Some things arereally dark. This is not the
whole picture. I think that can,that can help to both kind of
retain the seriousness of whatis happening, but also not being
completely consumed by it.

As you were talking about this devotional in
this book, it is helping us notsee that we're not we're in it
alone. We're actually in it witha community. There's a communal
aspect of this, that discernmentis communal. That brings me then
to you know, in part two of yourdevotional, the the devotion of
Be wise as serpents, innocent asdoves. Or, you say, choose your

(23:28):
battles, avoid traps. Alsoreminds me of and, or I'm still
in the middle of of watchingand, or so we're, we're
choosing, yeah, choosingbattles, avoiding traps at that
time, knowing when to actuallystand up, when to, you know,
gather with people and bide ourtime. When is the right time to

(23:49):
to act? When is the right timeto gather as community? What?
What is that starting to looklike for for us as we're knowing
when to act and what to do andwhat to say. And it's not all at
once, but there's a bite sizedpiece here and there that adds
up to something greater. Yeah.

I mean, I it's something I grapple with
constantly, and also I, youknow, one of the my primary
context in which I do my owndiscernment is the context of
teaching at a seminary withstudents, many of whom are going
into ministry or into otherkinds of professions, or many of
whom come out of differentecclesial contexts and have

(24:31):
already done significantministry. But so it's it's not
immediately my own context isless immediately with
congregations and communitiesand more with people who are
also already or becoming faithleaders in their different
contexts. And I can see, and Ifeel these targets as well, that
there can be an urge to like,yeah, we must, you know, we must

(24:51):
stand up immediately. We mustmake the strongest statements.
We must do this right now. It isvery important that we get it
right, and and others who arevery cautious. US, which, you
know, in the political momentthat we're in, is also not
completely unfounded. I meanpeople who are afraid that their
visas might be taken away, thattheir communities might be
targeted in a different way,that they might not have access

(25:12):
or not get a job and so forth,like all these things are
legitimate concerns, and I thinkespecially in a political
climate where we can also seethat opposition is, you know,
there are token things that getimmediately weaponized as, oh
yeah, this is a sign ofimposition. We will clap down,
clamp down. Hard on it. We haveseen this right, like there are
punitive strategies immediatelyat work, against universities,

(25:33):
against the press, where we cansee that things that appear to
be public displays ofopposition, whether they
actually are or not right, orlack of loyalty or ideological
alignment immediately gets, getpunished and become also
exemplary cases that thenfrighten others. And I think
this is one of the portionswhere I'm like, I'm actually

(25:53):
going back and forth of like,when is that the right time to
make big public statements?
Because part of it is, it's veryimportant, right that not
everyone just simply folds oralso muddles through and does
not raise their head and forcesthat is very important. And some
of the more important work mightbe less vocal and more on the
ground in some ways, and to dothe right discernment between

(26:16):
these is very, very hard. Imean, the choose your battles
wisely. Lesson, it does talkabout, you know, Jesus being
asked about paying taxes, andlike giving this awkward kind of
evasive answer, right where he,like they can't quite pin him
down, right, like they can't usehis answer to immediately say
this guy is a revolutionary, andhe, you know, wants to overthrow

(26:37):
their regime or wants to defy itopenly, and so we're literally
just going to go ahead andcrucify him. He doesn't give
them that easily. And at thesame time, the answer he gives
also doesn't actually leave muchdoubt that, like this is not the
kingdom that is the highest,that demands the highest
loyalty, and another one doesso, like he kind of tries to

(26:58):
thread that needle in thatmoment. And, I mean, even in
that moment, he gets kind of,and we see this happening with
his passage, right? Like he kindof it also you can throw, you
can fall down the horse on bothsides with that as well, right?
Like, is it enough of an ofraising and opposition, and at
the same time, he does actuallyget crucified, you know, a few,
a few steps down the line forprecisely that kind of non

(27:21):
committal statements at thatmoment,

but he knows when the right time was. And you
know, you could see the weekbefore He was crucified, he was
he was saying more, he was hewas doing more things to get him
to the place that he knew thathe needed to get to. And so we
have to do some of that work,and knowing when the right
timing what he's called us todo. And then in your answer,

(27:50):
right there, one of the thingsthat political authorities are
trying to do is trying to inducefear in us. And what's the
antidote to living in fear? Thenhow do we then maybe cultivate
some joy, or do some some thingsto say, even in the midst of a
fear based culture and a fearbased regime, we can actually

(28:12):
root ourselves in the rejoicealways aspect of what Jesus is
calling us to in the midst ofdifficult suffering and
circumstances.

Yeah. I think that is very, very important. I
mean, yeah. And just quicklyback to the like he did get more
decisive, right, or maybe hefound the right moments. And I
think the we cannot abandon, thewe cannot leave the site of the
cross. We have to stay withthose also get crucified in our

(28:42):
moment. I think that is animportant part of Christian
witness. Always. Part of it iseven if and when we cannot do
anything. We cannot leave thosesites and and that like
extension of solidarity and andpresence even and witness. But
we do have to also use whateverprivilege we have, whatever
ground we have, whatever standwe have right, and not give that

(29:06):
up prematurely out of fear oreven prudence or discomfort. I
mean, there's I believe in thatstrongly that we kind of need to
stay in the spaces of frictionand not avoid them. Yeah, but
then, how does the fear notconsume you? I mean, does you
know often people's, I don'tknow what the what the count is,

(29:27):
but people often say, like, howmany times the Bible says, Do
not be afraid. And often, like,even the gospel gets prefaced
right? The announcement of thegood news gets prefaced with the
Do not be afraid. So even eventhe goodness may induce some of
the fear, but there's alegitimate fear, but the other
side of it is, yeah, it is. Itis a part of the shadows that

(29:47):
are cast by the light, right?
And so focus more on the lightand on the on the shadows in
that sense. So don't give intothe fear. And for that, we do
need to cultivate the joy. We doneed to cultivate the community.
We do need to make space andgive time for the experiences
that are not that cannot just besubsumed by the current

(30:07):
political moment. So part ofpart of resistance actually also
means to insist that this is notall there is to life, right? It
is not just terrible. It is notjust the downfall of whatever
even as all of that ishappening, we are also
gathering, we're alsocelebrating, we're also
embracing one another, we'realso sharing meals. We're also
celebrating one another's livesand pursuits and and all of that

(30:31):
creates the life which then weneed to protect from the
onslaught of whatever ishappening. But there must be
this life that is worthprotecting, and that is more
than than practices of self careso that we don't get fully eaten
up. It is this insistence thatgrace is first and foremost. We

(30:52):
already exist. Our community isreal. We will lean into that and
and embrace that and then defendus and expand it,

because we're defending that we're nourishing
our community, as we like tosay, as we come together. This
is the life that we want toprotect, and this is the life we
want to make sure that we canlive. I think one of the things
that is really fascinating here,I think a lot of times when we
think of like resistance, orrebellion against the

(31:26):
authoritarian regime, beingfaithful in the midst of all of
that and trying to move forward,you think of really just, you
know, progressive leaningthought. But you you talk about
here is that you want to be alittle bit more conservative at
times as well, that there isactually a balance between, you

(31:47):
know, rooting ourselves in agreater historical tradition and
story, and then, you know, theprogressive type of moving
towards, really The margins andthe marginalized, the neglected.
What does that balance kind oflook like? How can we root
ourselves in, you know,conservative action and

(32:11):
progressive leaning action atthe same time? Is it possible?

Yeah. I mean, many of the things that I'm
trying to do here are kind ofdialectical. So there's a lot of
holding things in tension, andat some point I even, and this
is half apologetic, right? I sayI think, but it's only, it's
only half joking. I think thisis even in and of itself, part
of the resistance toauthoritarian ideology, because
part of what it tries to do isto eliminate friction and

(32:37):
eliminate tension and haveeverything aligned. And we can
insist that we don't have to allthink alike, and we don't have
to exactly believe the samethings and value the same
things. And actually, that ispart of the thing that we're
trying to protect. And, andthere should be a wide space
here, and that will last, youknow, eliminate it will even,
you know, there will be lots ofinternal conflict if there's, if

(32:58):
there's something internal likethat. But, yeah. I mean, what
are the labels of progressiveand conservative? People can
discuss up and down, and then,if you're more on the
progressive end of the spectrum,maybe you think of those who are
conservative as sometimes toonarrow, or there's a particular
self interest. But you mightalso say, right, there are
particular values that this isabout. And how about we think

(33:19):
what these values are, what getsvalued here, and what then, what
kind of action then becomesnecessary because of that? And
on the other hand, moreconservative, you might think of
the progressive side as like,going wild in all kinds of
directions. But there's also alot of there's a concern for the
for the for the vulnerable.
There's a lot of empathy andaltruism here that, you know,
there's, I think, yeah, many ofthese values could be framed as

(33:42):
more conservative values aswell, easily. So I'm trying to
say some, yeah, I mean, andradicalism is always about
roots, and conservatism is aboutconserving something. So, I
mean, I think the question is,what it is, what is it that we
try to conserve, and what is thekind of future that we want to
make possible, and for whom, andI think in that kind of

(34:02):
balancing, the I mean, I don'tknow balancing, maybe never, but
like both insisting right, likethe good things that we have
inherited that are worthpreserving and are also worth
extending. Too many, yeah, thatthat is something I would want
to insist

on as you continue to move forward in
here, you have your manymembers, one body, you have
diversity, and you have unitywithin the church. This is why I
keep going back to Ephesiansfour. And I love Ephesians four,
because Paul is talking toEphesians. He's rooting us in
unity. And Ephesians four,there's, you know, one body,
there's one church, there's oneLord, there's one baptism, and

(34:42):
we're one. But then, you know,grace was given by Jesus to
different members of the churchto do different things. You
know, the apostolic, prophetic,the evangelistic, the
shepherding and the teaching. Wehave diversity of gifts that we
actually have to honor oneanother, and those and the
diversity, and they're differentmembers of the. Each each of the
body. How does that help us thenlive in this world as we are,

(35:05):
like, saying, hey, there isactually a one humanity, and
there are different gifts. Andwe can, you know, appreciate
each other's differences, andsay we're for that, but we're
also for some of this unity thatwe're called to, you know, the
same purpose and the same Lord,the same baptism with in all of

(35:27):
the church, yeah,

I mean, I would always want to say that. I would
want to insist on the unity andand also insist that it's
something that we don't make,and it's not the Unity doesn't
consist in kind of the thecommon denominator among us,
right? It's external to us thatunity is God, and we belong to
the body of Christ, and we'reall engrafted into it in some
extent, right, to some extent.
And this body of Christ is thebroken body, and it will be. And

(35:50):
this is part of what we'regrappling with, but this is
actually part of the grace,right, that all of us who are
broken in our different kinds ofways, who are complicit with
different kinds of things, whoare struggling with different
kinds of struggling withdifferent kinds of things, get
to be part of that body anddon't get given up by God, I
think can also make us morecapacious and maybe merciful, of
extending some of that grace toothers, I think part of that

(36:13):
also is insisting on holdingeach other accountable for where
we fall short, and calling oneanother to accounts where we
need to do more and differentthings, but it also and in a
moment like this, it means noteveryone has to do the same
things, and maybe not everyoneis comfortable doing the same
things, and maybe not everyoneis called to do the same things.
We do need people who are out inthe streets protesting. Some of

(36:36):
us will be very vulnerable if weput ourselves in a protest, we
risk the deportation or worse.
So maybe not everyone has to goprotest now, but every protest
needs people who make signs, orwho cook meals, or who then wash
people's laundry, right? It's anongoing and extended thing, or
who make pamphlets. So that'ssomething that people can do at

(36:56):
home who are not comfortablebeing in the street. And we need
that not everyone canparticipate in a protest. We
will need people who are in apublic school system and insist
that, you know, we tell slightlydifferent, more critical
versions of our own history tothe children who we need people
in the courts, in theimmigration courts, in all the
courts. We need people indifferent institutions who at

(37:18):
some point will be willing toresist an order, even if they,
by and large, are ininstitutional conformity with
what is going on. I thinkthat's, to me, also been one of
the really striking things,going back to the history of the
Confessing Church. When we wantto look at them as like they're
all the heroes that resisted,they're they all fall so short.
And then at the same time, it isso interesting that at some

(37:38):
point, at least especially askind of the history shifts and
becomes even more horrifying.
And like actual atrocities arehappening in the in the war and
then in concentration camps andon the streets that, like it is
people who actually stayed incertain institutions that were
fully corrupt that made a hugedifference, right? Who now said

(38:00):
I'm gonna, for example, I'm justgonna push some pencils lower,
and will mean the militarycannot actually advance as
quickly as it wants to. Or Iwill document what is happening,
and this will be, this will Iwill pass this on to people
outside of this country. I willpreserve this for posterity.
Some sort of reckoning will onlybe possible if people who are
inside the system take record,um, some sort, some forms of

(38:23):
warning, right of alerts topeople who might get targeted,
can only be possible if thereare people who are inside. So
while I'm not precisely wantingto, you know, recommend being a
part of a corrupt system in someways, we all are. We all are
constantly part of institutionsand and communities and systems
that are corrupt in many ways.

(38:45):
And it's important to kind ofdraw the lines in one's personal
integrity. And it's also not aone and done measure, right? And
I think to have the capacity forthat to say, regardless of where
you find yourself now, andregardless where you still would
be in five minutes and half ayear down the road and so forth.
There will be something that youcan do in terms of a Christian
witness that will make adifference. Um, so So not to be

(39:08):
like, you know, either I'm themost radical opponent and like,
give my life for the cause, orelse nothing matters. Like, so
many different kinds of witnesswill be needed and will be
valuable where they get toprotect people who are targeted,
where they get to call attentionto things that are happening,
and where they get to stopatrocities

Unknown (39:32):
every now and then as well.

Yeah, if you look back on the resisting
church in the past, what can welearn from them, them, where
they didn't go far enough, orthey didn't do as much as maybe
they they should have, or theyregretted afterwards saying, oh,
we should have done more here orthere. What can we learn as
we're going forward today, wheremaybe we could faithfully stands

(39:59):
in our day and age? Edge.

Well, I mean, I would say one could learn to
earlier on, cultivate the lifeof the faith that he keeps its
eyes on the cross, that fromthere, goes into the sermons of
where to stand and in whichevertime to build relationships and
community before you need it. Sobecause, yeah, a lot of the

(40:24):
things that we need happen, weneed them before we know that we
need them, right? I think thisis maybe right. One of the, one
of the big lessons, is thealways too late lesson say it's
so well, you know? I mean, westarted this conversation with
the like, you know, Don't giveinto the storm and the fear and
so this was also a bit of maybeintention here to say, on the

(40:45):
one hand, right, don't get on tothe storm and the fear
wholesale. But on the otherhand, also, don't delay, right?
Don't, don't wait for things toget much worse. It's as serious
as it will get. It's seriousenough to now invest in joy,
invest in community, invest inrelationship building. Invest in
grounding yourself in faith.
Invest in thinking what yourfaith means in your life. Invest
in where discerning now what arelines that you're not going to

(41:09):
cross and that you shouldn'tcross. And make place. Make
plans, right? Like, what are yougoing to talk about with your
loved ones for when that momentcomes? Have these conversations
now. Have the contingency plans,right? It's not that they're
Yeah, I think, you know, not ina kind of fear mongering way,
but in a kind of discerning way,yeah, to take our faith, our

(41:31):
integrity and the lives of thosearound us seriously enough to
think through it. Now,

can you talk to the Christian who is in the
system, the institutionalsystem? So in Christendom, that
some policies that may makepeople more marginalized and
oppress people on the marginsactually create for somebody

(42:00):
that is in a a certain segmentof the population in our country
feel more safer, feel like theyhave more comfort, and it feels
like life is better for themthat way. How? How is something
where there is flourishing forall good for people where they

(42:22):
have comforts and they don'tactually feel a really
encroaching on their own life atthe moment, how, how is working
for the flourishing and thebelonging for all people?
Actually, Jesus centered andgood for all of us.

I think working for the flourishing of all
people will be good for all ofus. Whenever we do that by
centering on the margins, rightwhen we take the temperature of
what is happening there, when wemake life better for those who
are marginalized, life will bebetter for all of us. All our
systems will be more stable forone if we don't exclude and

(43:03):
oppress. I mean, you know, maybethe occasional billionaire might
have to pay a little more, butthen they won't get eaten. You
know, that might also be a longterm benefit. But so I think,
right, there's a the Christianfaith is really not utilitarian
in and majoritarian. In thatsense, Jesus goes after the one
sheep, not after the like.
Doesn't say, Oh, I have 99 sheepand they're comfortable, and

(43:24):
that's a high good, and I shouldpreserve that good. What is the
loss of one sheep? If I can keep99 sheep warm and sheltered like
that would have been a veryprudent judgment to make. And
this is kind of one of theparables I think, at the center
of our faith, the Good Shepherdis the one who makes sure no
sheep gets thrown out to thewolves. And the safety of the 99

(43:45):
sheep is only worth so much ifthat happens. And, and I think
that's, I mean, part of thestory of Scripture. And kind of
the recurring refrain, I think,both in the Hebrew Bible in the
New Testament, is God, in caseof doubt, will opt for that one
sheep, you know, for the brokenread, for the marginalized and

(44:09):
oppressed, for the smallerbrother, for the you know, the
one that did not have anyrights, for the widow, for the
orphan, for the stranger in Theland, that is kind of the
recurring refrain. And that'seven, you know, the big Matthew
judgment they see, you know,like, when have we done this and
done this? Like, well, what youhave done to the least of these?
That's kind of the thing thatcounts. And I think ideally,

(44:32):
this will also mean that if wemake sure that at the margins,
no one gets left behind, thateveryone will be accounted for.
It's an encompassing movement.
It's not one that plays out onegroup against another, but that
says we need to like the youknow, our grace, our compassion,
our building needs to extend allthe ways to those that are in

(44:55):
the margins. And this is how wecreate flourishing for all

that's really, really good. It. If people pick
up this for such a time as this,this emergency devotional that
you have or communities readthis together. What hope do you
have for this devotional?

I hope that it allows people to find others and
sit with others and thinkthrough things for themselves.
I'm not trying to give anyone arecipe of what to do. I'm trying
to share my process of trying towork through this moment. I'm
trying to offer what things werehelpful for me in this and I'm
like my hope would be, to kindof invite others to do the same.

(45:33):
And if any of what I wrote hereis helpful for that wonderful.
If other resources are morehelpful, that is great, right?
There's so many other stories inthe Bible. There's so many other
historical episodes that we candraw on, and communities that we
can learn from. And this wasjust the stuff that I knew

Hannah. This is a great devotional. This is a
great book, and this is reallyhelpful to root ourselves within
the story that is happeningtoday, to know that this is not
new that has happened before,that we can learn from the past,
and we could learn fromScripture. We could learn as we
focus on Jesus and the cross andwhere we are going, and what is

(46:10):
our purpose here on Earth, andwhat does it look like to live
faithfully. It's a fantasticresource, so I really do hope
people go out and get it. It'sreally good. I have a couple of
quick questions at the end. Ilike to ask one, if you go back
to your 21 year old self, whatadvice would you give?

Unknown (46:27):
Does it have to be specifically the 21 year old

self around that time? Yeah, your younger self?

Yeah, it will. It will probably also be something
along the lines of slow down anddon't try to do everything at
the same time.

That's good. You wrote this book for yourself,
your younger self. This isperfect. When it comes out of
something that you actually needin your life and you're
wrestling with, struggling with,that's the best.

It has at least an audience of one. I know that,
yes,

exactly. So that's really good. Anything
you've been reading or watchinglately you could recommend,

well, I mean, one of the things that I found
really inspiring as I wrote thiswas Tim Snyder's on tyranny. And
if your readers haven't read it,I recommend it highly. Tim
Snyder is a historian, scholaron fascism and different
authoritarianisms in alsoEastern Europe, not just the
Nazi scene, has recently leftthe country the kind of canary

(47:26):
in the coal mines, some peoplemight have noticed. And he wrote
that book and the first Trumpadministration, and he tried to
do something like that, right,to, like, pick lessons from
history on what one might learnright now. And I found that
hugely helpful,

all right, for such a time as this will be
available anywhere books aresold, so go out and get it now.
Hannah, Is there anywhere you'dlike to point people to,
anywhere specific you'd like topoint people to, to get the, get
the book, or to connect withyou?

Well, they can get it directly from earthlands,
if they'd like to. And ChristineDumas, who some may also know,
who's also been doing a lot ofwork on, especially a whole, how
certain versions of Christianityare kind of wrapped up with the
contemporary political moment aswell. She's convening a big kind
of book reading club in thefall. They read some Snyder.

(48:13):
They're going to read thedevotional. So it's also a
possibility to sign up forsubstack. She does awesome work,
but that would also be a placeto find others around the nation
who are maybe asking similarkinds of questions.

Excellent. Well, Hannah, thank you for this
conversation. Thank you forrooting us within the story, and
rooting us into a place where wecould actually discern what is
happening, what is going on. Wecould find some calm, and then
we could gather others incommunity to be able to figure
out what we can do from here andgo from here. So it was
fantastic. I really, reallyenjoyed our conversation. So

(48:44):
thank you.

Thank you. You.

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Ep. 337 Hanna Reichel - An Emergency Devotional for Such a Time As This

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