September 5, 2025 • 52 mins
Prayer can be more than quiet reflection — it can be protest, solidarity, and a catalyst for justice. In this episode of Shifting Culture, I talk with Liz Theoharis and Charon Hribar about their new book We Pray Freedom, a collection of prayers, songs, and liturgies born out of the Freedom Church of the Poor.
We explore how faith traditions can sustain movements, how ritual can become resistance, and how communities on the margins are leading us toward a more just and abundant world. From prayer in homeless encampments to liturgy at the border, this conversation invites us to see that prayer isn’t escape — it’s action, hope, and transformation.
Rev. Dr. Liz Theoharis is a theologian, pastor, author, and anti-poverty activist. She is the Executive Director of the Kairos Center for Religions, Rights, and Social Justice and Co-Chair of the Poor People’s Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival. Rev. Dr. Theoharis has been organizing in poor and low-income communities for the past 30 years. Her books include: We Cry Justice: Reading the Bible with the Poor People’s Campaign (Broadleaf Press, 2021) and Always with Us?: What Jesus Really Said about the Poor (Eerdmans, 2017) and she has been published in the New York Times, Politico, the Washington Post, Sojourners and elsewhere. Rev. Dr. Theoharis is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and teaches at Union Theological Seminary.
Dr. Charon Hribar is a movement song leader, cultural organizer, and social ethicist. She serves as the director of cultural strategies for the Kairos Center and as co-director of theomusicology and movement arts for the Poor People's Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival. She cofounded Songs in the Key of Resistance and has been instrumental in creating music and cultural resources like the Songs in the Key of Resistance Songbook and the We Cry Justice Cultural Arts Project. Dr. Hribar combines on-the-ground organizing with teaching and leading social-movement music nationwide, empowering communities to integrate arts into their efforts for justice.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz Theoharis (00:00):
And I think that our communities, our communities
of faith, have to berestructuring edifices that that
are producing beggars and thatare requiring us to have
handouts, and that if we're notdoing that, we're actually not
doing the work of Jesus. YouJoshua,
Joshua Johnson (00:27):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, in this
episode of shifting culture, I'mjoined by Liz Theoharis and
Charon rebar to talk about theirnew book. We pray freedom born
out of the Freedom Church of thepoor. This book gathers prayers
(00:49):
and liturgies and songs thatdon't just comfort individuals,
but equip whole communities toresist empire, to imagine ritual
as collective action and to holdon to hope in the face of
despair. We talk about prayer asa form of protest grounded in
biblical stories like thepersistent widow who demands
justice from an unjust judge. Wehear about communities that
(01:09):
gather in homeless encampmentsoutside immigration courts and
at the US Mexico border, whereprayer isn't an escape from
reality, but a way of namingwhat's wrong and insisting on
change. Liz and Sharon remind usthat rituals of faith have
always carried the cries of themarginalized, and that when we
pray with our feet, sing withour neighbors and create spaces
(01:29):
of solidarity, we join in thestruggle for a more just and
beautiful world. This is aconversation about reclaiming
faith traditions as movementsfor justice, about breaking
cycles of oppression, and abouthow collective prayer and art
can become fuel fortransformation. It's about
abundance instead of scarcity,community instead of isolation,
(01:51):
and hope instead of resignation.
So whether you come from achurch pew, a protest line, or
somewhere in between, thisepisode will invite you to see
prayer and ritual as powerfultools to shift culture, resist
empire and imagine freedomtogether. So join us. Here is my
conversation with Liz Theoharisand Sharon rebar. Liz and
Sharon, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
(02:16):
both of you on so thank you forjoining me. Thanks for having
us. Yes, I'd love to know wepray freedom, this book of
liturgies and prayers fororganizing for justice, the
freedom church for the poor. Howdid this all come about? And
what is this collection? Whatare you hoping to get from this?
Charon Hribar (02:37):
So we pray freedom, as it says, is coming
out of the work of the FreedomChurch of the poor. And the
freedom Church of the poor beganback in 2020 when the pandemic
was full on. And, you know, asfolks were weren't able to kind
of meet in their traditionalspaces of worship or faith
(02:57):
spaces, we started a spaceonline where folks would gather,
a lot of movement leaders whowere driven by faith and and
folks that were also, you know,maybe pastoring traditional
congregations or other faithspaces. Because we again, we
weren't meeting physically. Itbecame an online space that was
really a way for people togather during that time. But
(03:20):
what we found was that it wasalso became a space that people
just really needed. And so ithas actually continued on. It's
a place we talk about it as apolitical and spiritual home for
leaders that are again, bothconnected to social movements,
but also connected to the roleof faith in that work. And so it
has become a place where peoplecome together and really both
(03:43):
share kind of the experiencesand stories of their communities
and the struggles they're a partof, as well as help to sustain
that work through these kind offaith practices. And so the
stories in this book come out ofthat community. And while that
started in 2020 the storiesactually reach much further
back, because many folks in thisnetwork have worked together for
(04:03):
for many years and struggleacross the country. It's people
that have for years seen kind ofthe power that our faith
traditions hold in both likebeing stories or struggle. Our
faith traditions actually arefilled with stories of struggle,
of communities that have, youknow, been fighting for justice
and fighting to sustain theircommunities and fighting for a
(04:24):
different world. So drawing onthose traditions naturally in
the work that we do today, thatthe stories of prayers and
liturgies and songs that havereally held communities across
the country in this work, andyou know, both in the streets,
as well as in spaces of mutualaid and soup kitchens and as
(04:45):
well as spaces where people aregathering to think about what
does organizing for a differentway of living in a different
world that we can see and sothat's really this book is a
compilation of these stories andthese practices and a way for
both. Organizers to think abouthow we are able to like draw on
these traditions and incorporatefaith and cultural practices
(05:07):
into movement building, as wellas for faith communities to
think about and reimagine kindof our our traditions in ways
that call us to social justicework and call us into practices
that are about transforming theworld and again, lifting up the
kind of stories of struggle thatexist in our in our faith
traditions that are there andjust how do we make that
(05:30):
applicable for today?
Joshua Johnson (05:31):
Let's hear you frame prayer as a sort of
protest, and that you couldactually use this in in
organizing. How do you defineprayer in terms of justice
movements, and why is it a formof protest?
Liz Theoharis (05:46):
Yeah, I love this question, and again, thanks so
much for having us here, andit's exciting to be in
conversation about about all ofthis. We use a biblical story to
talk about this kind of prayeras protest, and it's one of my
favorite Bible passages. It'sthe story of this persistent
widow who comes to plead for forjustice to an unjust judge and
(06:10):
and what's amazing to me aboutthis story, even though it's
from 1000s of years ago, is isit describes that this is her
prayer like, this is what itlooks like to prayer, pray
without ceasing. And then itgoes on to tell the story of not
sitting quietly with her headbowed and her hands folded, but
(06:32):
instead, this woman who has beenexperiencing injustice,
marginalization, I imagine,impoverishment and
discrimination, and they don't.
They don't tell us a lot abouther case, but, but we know from
the ancient world, which is notthat different than our world
today. You know, there's allforms and layers of kind of
intersectional injustice goingon and and she comes in front of
(06:54):
a judge, and the the text isreally clear that this judge,
they basically say, doesn't givea damn about other human beings
and doesn't even fear God. Andyet, in her prayer, in her
petitioning this judge, in her Iimagine organizing her community
to come and be in collaborationand solidarity with her, they're
(07:16):
probably experiencing similarinjustices, she's able to win
justice. And so to me, it's likea paradigm or a window into
looking at what prayer andprotest are and and, you know, I
think many of us will, will,will remember this, you know,
famous and powerful statement ofRabbi Joshua Heschel, when he
(07:37):
was marching across the EdmundPettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama,
with Dr King and John Lewis andyou know, many others. And when
his congregation is kind ofsaying, Well, what's, what's the
role of prayer here? And he'slike, Well, I have to pray with
my feet. I think many of us havehave heard, especially those
(07:57):
that are are inclined towardsdoing justice organizing and
freedom organizing, but toactually imagine that that
protest and prayer, you know,whether it's in that case, or
whether it's in the case of thisunjust judge and this persistent
widow, or if it's in the case ofyou know, some of the stories
that we tell in this book. Youknow folks that are petitioning
(08:18):
to not be deported and detained.
Who are, you, know, gatheringwith their colleagues and
singing and praying. But thatprayer is not just bowing your
head and and folding your hands,but it's it's saying, demanding
of society and demanding of ourreligious institutions to be on
(08:38):
the side of of the poor, themarginalized, the immigrant, the
the other. And I think toimagine, in our biblical text,
there are all of these storiesof of the people crying out,
right and and sometimes that cryis is literally a wailing
yesterday, I was outside ofimmigration court in New York
(09:00):
City at the Federal Plaza, andwe literally wailed at the
building as hundreds of peopleare going in, many of them being
detained against judges wishes.
So there's sometimes, though,crying out that's a wailing, and
then sometimes there's a cryingout that's actually like in in
the form of protest, you know,saying this is not just. This is
not right. And it's, it's astory of the Bible that happens
(09:22):
over and over again. It's, it'sonly when people cry out, it's
only when people protest thatthen God hears the cries and and
joins in the struggle forjustice. And so I think what
we're what we're looking at inthis text and in many of the
stories and rituals that arecontained is this kind of call
and response, like people cryout and pray and protest for the
(09:45):
righting of wrongs and God joinsus in lots of different forms of
who God is and who how God showsup for people across religious
tradition and even. Folks thatdo not consider themselves
people of faith, but believe inthe arc of the universe bending,
or at least needing us to bendit towards justice. And so I
(10:08):
think that's where this all kindof plays out for us.
Joshua Johnson (10:13):
I think one of the things that a lot of people,
if I'm looking at social mediaor something, they say, oh, some
horrible thing has happened,pray for them, or I'm gonna do a
little protest, if I'm gonna puta black box or whatever on my
social media page and like, butwhat is the difference then, of
prayer as something to be like,Hey, I'm just gonna pray, or
(10:34):
prayer as protest, prayer aslike, I'm gonna put my feet and
walk my prayers. I'm going to beout there. What's that
difference? And how can we shiftthe culture to say that prayer
actually has some action to it?
Charon Hribar (10:50):
Yeah, I think one of the things is that in our
society, we often, when we saythe word prayer, we have this
like it's an internal thing.
It's our personal conversationwith God. And even when we're
saying we'll pray for you, youknow, it's still we're praying
to God and hoping that somethingwill, you know, happen and and
it, you know, there is power inprayer. And you know, I think
(11:12):
the piece of we've lost a lot ofthe collective sense of what
that means, and theparticipatory sense of what that
means in our culture. And evenyou know, when we think about
you know that we have certaindays that we go and we worship
together. And I had a we had aprofessor at Union years ago
that used to talk about ritualis supposed to be a practice for
(11:34):
us to remind and reinforce inourselves the values that we
believe in, so that we can goand actually do that in the
world, right? And so, you know,when we say we should pray and
we should, you know, it beinvolved in ritual. Ritual is
actually something that is abouta continual practice that we're
doing in our everyday lives,right? It's not reserved only
(11:56):
for that one day a week or thatone special moment, right? But
it's actually about that we haveto go and do this practice. And
I think there's something aboutprayer and ritual that we're
lifting up, both out of thesetraditions and in this book,
that is really about ourcollective practice of, you
know, living out our values oflifting up, kind of a vision of
(12:19):
the world that our you know thatGod and what our faith
traditions are calling for, andyou know so in that you know,
what does that practice becometo look like? You know, it is
takes multiple forms, right? Ittakes the form of protest. It
takes the form of gathering as acommunity to make sure that all
of our needs are met and thatthe justice that our communities
(12:40):
deserve, you know, is actuallylived out in this world. And so
that, I think that's thatcalling and that that redefining
and understanding of prayer andritual in that way,
Joshua Johnson (12:51):
when I'm looking at living in the Empire, which I
am in America, and I live in theempire, and live in a very
strong country, and there arepockets of people that would
love to pray, but they want tohold on to power and Empire. How
can people start to separatethemselves from Empire and then
(13:12):
in the ways of Jesus and embodywho he is for the poor and the
marginalized and the people andthe outcasts, which constantly
is going for. What does it looklike to help separate out and
like, figure out that I've mayhave been influenced more by the
(13:33):
Empire than Jesus?
Liz Theoharis (13:36):
Mean, I love this. It also makes me think
again about the Bible, because Ithink where John the Baptizer
shows up is out in thewilderness, because he has to
kind of pull people away fromthe trappings of empire, right?
Like to both imagine what itreally is to worship God, to
imagine what kind of communitywe could be living in, you know,
(13:59):
kind of the beloved community,the kind of ideals of of a
community of faith, right? And afaith, not just in, you know,
Jesus, but a faith of Jesus,right, which means turning over
tables. I mean, one of ourcolleagues has been showing up
with this sticker and this tshirt recently that says, like,
why are you trying to sit at thetables that Jesus would turn
(14:20):
over, right? Like, and I thinkit's like, that's kind of the
question I hear you posing, andI think we struggle with it all
the time, right? We are livingin one of the richest countries
in human history before some ofthis most extremist you know,
this, this reconciliation billand other kind of amazing,
unbelievable transfers of wealthand power from the bottom to the
(14:42):
top. That's happening. Wealready had almost half of the
country living in in forms ofpoverty, marginalization, you
know, like, I mean, this is agreat definition of empire,
right? And yet, it is reallytrue that so many of us are
being. Kind of trapped byEmpire, and can't even quite see
(15:04):
all the ways that we're not, notjust with our individual
actions, but just with the withour body politic, like how we're
being shaped and and and doingexactly what those in power want
us, which is opposite of of whatit is to be, you know, truly
obedient and living in to towhat our sacred texts and
(15:26):
traditions, you know, say, andthat's not just Christianity,
but you know, as a Christianpastor, I'm, I'm speaking
particularly from Christianity,and so I mean what I have found,
and what I think we are tryingto show through all of these
prayers and rituals in this bookand and in the practices of the
Freedom Church of the poor andand and beyond, is that what
(15:49):
kind of can break through thatis the bold and visionary
actions of folks whose backs areagainst the wall, as Howard
Thurman talks about it, and haveno choice but to push instead of
just kind of asking people,like, hey, just pay attention to
where you are. Instead of just,like, going to a church and
trying to, you know, preach adifferent sermon. All those
(16:12):
things are great. We need to doit. But, but like, like thinking
about something, like the womanwith a flow of blood in the
Bible, like, how she she doesn'twait for someone else to do
something. She just like, goesin, she takes action. That bold
action changes everything. Itkind of uncovers the Empire, and
it makes people respond. And,you know, I think about whether
(16:33):
it's on House folks taking overan abandoned church, and then,
you know, causing a huge uproarand a conversation and debate in
our faith communities aboutwhat, what should the religious
response to poverty be, orwhether it's, you know, us
putting up a huge memorial tothe millions that have died from
covid when the rest of society,just like wouldn't, wouldn't,
(16:56):
actually stop and mourn, anddeveloping a ritual out of that
like, I think we see that whenyou know poor and marginalized
communities, you know are ableto kind of arrest the attention
of the nation and and and comeforward with bold ritual and
protest, that then it makes usquestion, and it creates a
(17:18):
little bit of that wilderness inany place, because it's you
start to unveil what the Empireis and what it's doing, and show
that we don't have to actuallyall just like, bow our heads and
and, you know, and bow to this,but that actually we can. We can
join those that have that arebeing compelled into action and
(17:41):
have to do something new, ortheir very lives and livelihoods
and survival is at risk and at
Joshua Johnson (17:49):
stake. If you're organizing against Empire while
living in the empire, it couldbe dangerous, because any any
power that controls and wantsauthority is going to crack down
to make sure that control andauthority stays, but there are a
lot of cracks in that. So canyou give me an example of what,
(18:12):
what organizing ritual prayerprotests, how that subverts
empire and helps people, butmaybe even in a way that it is
dangerous and we could count thecost, and the cost is worth it.
Charon Hribar (18:29):
There's two examples I wanted to share in
thinking about that. The first,I mean, one, I think, is
especially in this moment wherewe see this rise of kind of
white Christian nationalism andauthoritarianism kind of being a
dominant narrative. And I thinkit does want to have prayer be
this internal, personal, youknow, space and just claiming
(18:50):
that it's, you know, on the sideof those in power. I think about
a story that we tell in the bookabout community in Aberdeen,
Washington, and they, they did aStations of the Cross to remind
folks that, you know, what wasthe cross? You know, was a
symbol of empire, right? Andequating and talking about that
in their community as you know,Jesus was crucified by the
(19:14):
Empire, and what was that crossthat he was, you know, it's not
that he it's, you know, we tella story that removes that story
from the systems of empire. Andso they, when they did the
Stations of the Cross, theyactually, you know, it was a
community in Aberdeen wherehomeless, especially young
people, and that had becomehomeless because of lack of
(19:35):
employment in their communities,you know, and and with that, not
having opportunities to, youknow, really find other jobs and
kind of the then infiltration ofdrugs and other things that just
were, you know, plaguing thatcommunity, and really telling
them that they're not worthy,right, that they're it's their
fault that they're in thissituation, and by taking up the
(19:57):
Stations of the Cross with thestories of. Of of the people in
that encampment that were livingin a homeless encampment, and
talking about the different waysthat the Empire was crushing
them, you know, whether it beby, you know, because of, you
know, drug addiction, by beingkilled by police, by, you know,
people's children being takenaway. They actually, through
(20:19):
each station, told those storiesand people seeing themselves in
the story of Jesus and pushingback against the Empire by
coming together, right? And, youknow, I think that that is a way
to show this kind of counternarrative of what this kind of
authoritarian narrative isright, by Re reconnecting the
story of Jesus to the stories ofthese struggling communities.
(20:42):
The other story I wanted totell, and thinking about, you
talked about, you know, there isdanger in it, but also, how do
we reach the people that, insome ways, are also just pawns
of this system? And I wasthinking about an action we did
at the border back in 2019 2018or 2019 when the migrant caravan
was coming up to the San DiegoTijuana border, and we had a
(21:07):
large group of multi faithleaders and other, you know,
people of moral conscience thatwere doing a protest and silent
protest and prayerful proteststo the border to stand in
solidarity with migrants and ourRight to, you know, to migrate
and to, you know, claim asylum,which is quite relevant in this
moment as well, and in that wewere, you know, confronted by a,
(21:30):
you know, every kind of level oflaw enforcement, border patrol,
you know, military, localpolice, you know, in riot gear
For a peaceful protest. Youknow, as we were there, there
was we talk about in the book,you know, we were also singing
songs that, you know, some ofthem were, you know, kind of
(21:52):
rallying the crowd and talkingabout our standing with our
sisters and brothers, you know,or migrating, and the need for
that no one is illegal. But asthe kind of tensions grew,
especially with the folks thatwere there, kind of defending
the border, right, we started tosing a song that said, love,
(22:13):
love, love, love. Sisters,brothers. Hear our call. We will
not bow to injustice. God lovesus all, but in a tone that was
also, like, really penetratingthe folks that were standing
there, you know, defending theborder in their riot gear, of
saying, like, you don't have todo this, right? I think we see
(22:35):
this in this moment, as we see,you know, folks being detained
and folks being, you know, andgoing to immigration courts. And
I think people in communitiesare really also like seeing, you
know, police officers coming tostand with, you know,
communities, and because we seepeople in our communities that
are being harmed, and we knowthat the kind of narratives that
(22:55):
they're saying about who thesepeople are not true, right? And
so being able to expose thatthrough these rituals, and to be
able to connect to one anotheron a human level, right, and to
call out the sacredness that isin every life, right, that is a
really important part of thesekind of rituals, to to kind of
(23:17):
acknowledge that humanity and tosee that we're all, we all can
be against what the kind ofempire and what the powers that
be are doing.
Joshua Johnson (23:25):
I think in in history, I I've seen a lot of
the people that have beenoppressed, that have come and
found some justice, they startto take power, and then they
oppress others. There's there'sthis cycle of oppression that
that happens, I would love tobreak that cycle, that we could
say there is enough for everyonethat we're, you know, the poor
(23:47):
and the marginalized are, are intogether, and we could be be one
and united. How do we break thatcycle? What is this better world
that you're imagining? What doesit look like I
Liz Theoharis (24:01):
really appreciate this, and I feel like I both see
that play out, and I also feellike when poor and marginalized
folk are able to win changes asa collective and a community, it
doesn't always have to play outthat way, and that I think
instead, sometimes, often, thosein power that say like, you
(24:23):
know, power corrupts andabsolute, power corrupts
absolutely, because they're moreor less saying, like, you don't
want to be like me, you know,like and instead of exactly, let
me just keep it right now, I'm,you know, we know it's it's
gonna taint you, it's gonnacorrupt you, right? And I think
it really does come down to, arepeople there as individuals, or
(24:46):
are we able to build the kind ofpower that holds those in power,
whether they're coming from poorand marginalized communities and
experiences or not accountable?
And so I think so often. And inthe more recent, kind of
organizing world changing whoindividually has a position of
power is what people attempt todo, instead of kind of changing
(25:09):
how it's done in the firstplace. I imagine, for instance,
we've learned a lot aroundritual and and protest and
organization from differentfolks across the world. And so I
think about like the largestsocial movement of peasants in
the Western Hemisphere. They'recalled the MST, the movemento
sometera. They're in Brazil, andthey're, you know, one to 2
(25:31):
million peasant families thatare organized, landless families
that are organized together. Youknow, they play on a national
level, they're organized inevery state across Brazil.
They've built alliances withpeople in power. They've helped
to establish schools through thefederal government that are just
the public schools, but they'rekind of run by folks that are
(25:52):
part of the movement, and intheir examples and in the way
that they are organized, likethey understand that their power
comes from the people. And sothey're, you know, hyper
democratic movement eachencampment, like each kind of
tent city that people are livingat, you know, elects, you know,
a diverse grouping of peoplethat that represent that
(26:15):
encampment. And then they theygo to, like, the next body of
people, and it's, again, a verylike it's very representational,
and folks are therefore veryaccountable, and they've been
able to show, I think, us, how abottom up movement actually
looks and can be organized. Andthen, therefore, when people are
in positions of power andauthority, including politically
(26:37):
and economically in society, howit can stay accountable to the
kind of needs and demands ofpeople. But in this country, I
think about, you know, some ofthe different organizing we've
been a part of, and includingwith unhoused folk and low wage
workers. And there's some ofthat. I mean, I think about a
(26:59):
group like the coal is from amotley workers down in in
southwest Florida who have beenable to kind of bring a bunch of
the fast food corporations andgrocery store chains to their
knees because of the kind oforganization and discipline and
power that a group of mainlyundocumented immigrants have
been able to build that are someof the lowest paid workers that
(27:22):
are left out of the LaborRelations Act. You know? I mean,
this should be a veryvulnerable, very marginalized
group, and they have been ableto hold folk accountable because
they're united, because they'reorganized. You know, those two
examples are, are examples oflike what it looks like to be in
grassroots ministries orchurches or communities and be
(27:46):
really united. Where it's notthat you think that getting one
person elected is going to savethe day, but the movement, you
know, sends folks to apply torun for those elected offices,
and then they understood thatthey're accountable to the
people and to the community andto the movement if and when
(28:06):
they're elected, and not to thekind of interests and and so I
think it's, it's it's not easy,but I think we are seeing
examples of of that kind ofpower building and that kind of
accountability that folks candemand. I think that feels
really distance in this moment,because when you have a kind of
an authoritarian regime, it'slike the absolute opposite, but
(28:28):
also it's, it's what many peopleare kind of demanding of this
moment and and so I think, Ithink, I think it could break
through.
Joshua Johnson (28:39):
I hope it can break through. And I hope we
could could see that. But if youlook at bottom up movements in a
lot of places, you're looking ata there's like micro level
changes that we're trying tomake at a smaller level, maybe
community level. How does thatget to the the macro to see a
large change in in a country ofthree, 30 million people, how
(29:05):
does it move from micro to macroto see big changes?
Charon Hribar (29:11):
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things you know
that we often reflect on in ourwork and in ways in this book,
is, you know, the really theneed to study social movements
and to study how does changehappen? Because I think we often
either see just what's happeningat the top and like the kind of
final legislation that we'll gothrough, or we see the very
(29:33):
local things that we'reconnected to, right? But when
you look at and you study kindof things like the abolitionist
movement or the civil rightsmovement or the labor movement,
you know that, like there were,so there have to be all of these
pieces happening simultaneouslyand right, and that there have
to be, especially, I think whatwe, I think, Miss sometimes, is,
(29:54):
you know how what that localwork has to be about building
long term. Permanently organizedcommunities of tight knit people
that then when we can createkind of the spaces of coalition
and campaigns that can be aboutbuilding a larger force to kind
of move those larger bodies ofyou know, whether it be
(30:15):
legislation or even more furtherprogressive change, right, that
we're able to kind of connectthose people. And so it's a lot
about, how do we then put peoplein relationship to one another
that are doing that local work?
But we can't. We can't bypasseither side of that, right? We
can't just call for somethingnational and, you know, and
think that if we can just getall of kind of the national
(30:37):
entities together, if they don'thave a base of people that are
doing that deep local organizingwork, and that might not, that
might look really different,right? It might take many
different forms. And I think oneof the things we lift up is it
can take, you know, the form ofhanding out food in a food
pantry or serving soup in a soupkitchen, but that is a way of of
(30:57):
really knowing the people inyour community and knowing that,
like that, understanding andtalking about the issues that
are impacting our community,that can then be connected. And
there has to be an intentionalspace to actually then connect
it to something bigger as well,right? Like it doesn't just
magically happen, right? And sothere does need to then be the
(31:18):
work of kind of, buildingleadership, of connecting that
leadership, and, you know,moving toward a political
program. But again, I thinkit's, it's a recognition that
you have to kind of understandthat there are kind of many
stairs on the staircase right,and you can't just kind of jump
over them.
Joshua Johnson (31:36):
When I think of Jesus, I think of Luke chapter
four, and what he actuallypresents and says, This is what
I'm all about, right? As I'mbringing good news to the poor,
like, that's the one of thefirst things that he says that
he's about, and he says it'sbeen fulfilled. So he's he's all
about the poor. Can you speak tofaith communities that actually
(31:57):
may have a lot of money, maybeare the rich, and they look at
the poor and say, we're going togive some money. We're doing our
stuff. We're just giving money.
How does something like this?
How can we pray freedom beutilized within richer faith
(32:18):
communities to have some moresolidarity with the poor,
identify more with the poor, andnot just like give handouts to
the
Liz Theoharis (32:27):
poor. Absolutely, amen, that is the question. And
I love the example from Lukefour, right? Because what?
What's clearly going on in this,in this passage, for one good
news, gospel, Evangelion, right?
I mean, it's at the core of whatit's supposed to be to be a
person of faith, right? Andsomehow we, for one, have
(32:48):
spiritualized that, right? AndAnd so somehow the gospel and
the good news are like, areotherworldly. And, you know, all
of these things, there's,there's nowhere that Jesus says
that, right? I mean, the prayerthat he teaches is, like,
canceled debts, you know, like,I mean, just, like, Sure,
spiritualized, exactly, right,just the way we have
(33:11):
spiritualized all of this stuff.
And then also in that text fromLuke four, I mean, it's, it's
good news to the patokos, likethose who have been made poor by
injustice. And so the good news,like, for one, it's not the bad
news of eviction and healthcarecuts and snap cuts. I mean, we
just have to be very clear thatanyone that calls themselves a
(33:31):
Christian and is is passingpolicies that prey on the poor
is in contradiction with theinaugural sermon of Jesus and
the the core teachings andbeliefs and so like that hard
stop. We have to, we have tonotice that. We have to call
that out. We have to show thatthat is there. There couldn't
be, actually much more onChristian than that. But then
(33:54):
second is that, like, the goodnews is not individualized. I
mean, good news is about, youknow, restructuring society from
the bottom up. It's about, youknow, canceling debts and paying
workers living wages. And sotherefore, if our faith
communities are interested indoing charity and not justice,
if our, you know, more wealthyfaith communities and
(34:16):
institutions, you know, thinkthat throwing handouts at at
individuals, instead ofadvocating for a society that
puts people first and that liftsfrom the bottom so everybody
rises again. That also, inaddition to like, you know,
calling out the the like socalled Christians that are
(34:38):
passing policies to cut peopleoff of Medicaid being anathema.
We actually have to call out,you know, well meaning, wealthy
Christians who think thatcharity and handouts are living
into Matthew 25 or Luke four, orany of these texts out as well,
because it's, it's that's not atall what we're learning. It's
not at all what Jesus. Issuggesting, you know, he, he,
(35:02):
he's talking about reallyrestructuring society in the
image of justice and abundancefor all right, like that's what
the reign of God, the kingdom ofGod, you know, is, is to be. And
so I think there's a place tokind of unite with, with
Christian communities and faithinstitutions that that out of
(35:23):
the kindness and the goodness oftheir their hearts and their
their faith are are figuring outhow to buy bikes for kids and
how to, you know, feed peoplelike that's important, but if
it's not linked to then kind ofthis more structural change even
I think about a favorite quotefrom Dr King, where he talks
about true compassion is morethan flinging a coin at a
(35:46):
beggar. It, it. It requiresrestructuring at edifice that
has produced beggars, right? AndI think that our communities,
our communities of faith, haveto be restructuring edifices
that that are producing beggarsand that are requiring us to
have handouts, and that if we'renot doing that, we're actually
(36:06):
not doing the work of Jesus.
It's not to make us feel bad,it's not to make us feel guilty,
it's not to say we're not doingenough. It's like, okay, how do
we figure and configure the workof our churches and our faith
institutions to be actuallybringing about the good news,
which, which means both on apolicy level and a structural
level, and and it means actualtransformative change in
(36:31):
people's lives, not, you know, alittle bit of food for a hot
minute, and then where we mostlypat ourselves in the back, and
mostly are proud and and, youknow, I think the most famous,
famous passage in the Bibleabout poverty, which is the poor
will be with you always. I thinkit's telling us exactly the
opposite of what it's beeninterpreted as, saying where, I
(36:54):
think people there also takethat passage to be like the best
we can do is is handouts andcharity. And I think that what's
happening by Jesus quotingDeuteronomy 15, one of the most
radical Jubilee passages in theBible, like we're we're being
reminded that, like that,handouts and proceeds to the
(37:15):
poor are not what works and thatand not what God requires, and
not what Jesus is teaches, butinstead, actually just are a
part of keeping an empire inplace. And what instead we're
required to do is to, is to, youknow, organize society around
(37:36):
the needs of everybody, whichmeans starting with those that
are most marginalized and andpushed
Joshua Johnson (37:45):
out good word.
What do you hope and how canpeople use we pray, freedom.
What does it look like to takethese liturgies, these rituals,
and utilize some of these thingswithin their communities, the
things that they're organizingfor?
Charon Hribar (37:59):
Well, the book is really set together to be of a
resource that people can use incommunity and and, you know, and
personal reflection. But reallywe, I think we do see it being
used in community. The way it'sset up is, often we tell the
story and context of acommunity. And you know, where
does this ritual come out of?
And then it offers, you know,whether it be a prayer or a
(38:21):
liturgy or a song, the actualpiece. And then there's often
kind of reflection questions atthe end of each section to think
and to think about reallyapplying it in your community.
And so, you know, it's, it'smeant to create parallels for
people. You know, we all haveunique experiences, but it's
also tapping into, like, what isthe, you know, the human
(38:43):
experience, and what are thestruggles of our communities?
And while they might be exactlythe same, we can find, you know,
it's helping us unearth andthink about, you know, our own
our own struggles in our owncommunities. And so it's really
like people can, you know, takekind of the prayers and songs
and use them. Or it can also bea way to inspire people to kind
of reimagine these kind ofrituals. You know, it, it goes
(39:05):
from anywhere from like taking acommunion ritual that has a very
basic, you know, it's the samewords, right? That might be
recited, but it takes it,instead of just doing it in your
church on Sunday, it takes itinto a homeless encampment. What
does it look like who we'repracticing communion with,
right? And so there's lots ofdifferent touch points for
communities to connect with inthis book, and to be able to
(39:28):
think about both like creatingnew rituals and giving examples
of that, as well as reimagining,you know, prayers and rituals
that they might already useregularly. But how do we
reconnect them to these likelong stories of struggle that
are in our faith traditions andand bring those to life in
current struggles. And then onelast thing I'll add is that we
(39:48):
are currently creating a websitethat will be a companion website
for the book. And in the book,as you read it, there are little
icons that remind you you can goto this website and. Because
they offer actually, like thevideos of songs and, you know,
kind of further videos ofdifferent kind of rituals, so
that people can see that andhear it as well as read it, so
(40:10):
that they can further beinspired and bring that story to
life
Joshua Johnson (40:16):
briefly, before I move to a few questions. I
really like to ask at the end, Iwant to know if you're looking
at songs, also things like arts,different creative prophetic
acts, how does that help theprophetic movements, just the
arts and and culture and songs?
How does that move the needle?
Charon Hribar (40:42):
Over and over again? You know, I think we
recognize when you can bringsong and culture into movement
spaces. It helps to connect us,I think, both to a real history
of struggle, like by teachingsongs that have been used and
and the creation of new ones.
But there's something thathappens beyond kind of just
(41:03):
being able to talk about thingswhen you're using art and
culture, right? You're able totap into deeply held emotions
and beliefs and feelings bythese kind of prophetic
traditions of using music. Andwe, you know, we talk, I talk a
lot about how, in some ways,like music actually
scientifically connects us,because as we sing together, we
(41:26):
actually start to breathetogether, and our hearts meet
together. And there's somethingphysically that happens when
we're actually able to kind ofengage in these practices
collectively. And I think it'salso a way of, kind of bringing
participatory art and music backinto these kind of spaces.
Because I think in our society,we do a lot of absorbing
(41:47):
culture, right? We watch a lotof things, we listen to a lot of
things. We go to, maybeconcerts. We might sing along a
little bit, but, but reallyhaving this practice of doing
this collectively and learningto again, lift our voices
together, I think we found isjust immensely transformative,
and it hope it can shape thewhole tone of that space, right?
Like when we do music in aprotest, you know, you you
(42:09):
control if it's done well,right? Whether Do you want that
to be this, like high energy,like we need to kind of move
moment, or do we need toactually, kind of collectively,
be able to sit with the like,deep despair and death that is
happening, like, we have to knowwhat kind of tone we're setting.
And I think music and and kindof the messages through the
(42:31):
visual arts as well, like,really help encapsulate that and
bring people into a space andand see it in a different way.
We're not just hearing peopletell us about it, right? We're,
participating in
Joshua Johnson (42:41):
it. I mean, I love that. I mean even taking it
into scripture, and Ephesians,as Paul is talking about
singing, He's instructing us asa community to sing together, to
bring a psalm, a hymn, spiritualsongs. And as we're doing that
in community that brings ustogether, that says, hey, now we
(43:02):
have one heart moving in aspecific direction. It's just
Yeah, it is. It's key for bothof you, Liz and Sharon, if you
go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would
Liz Theoharis (43:16):
you give? I love this. So when I was 21 I had
already been introduced to theNational Union of the homeless
and the national welfare rightsunion to grassroots anti poverty
movements and networks like mylife was transformed, right? And
so I think because I was kind ofwelcomed in to this, like,
(43:39):
really diverse geographic,racial, age, income level,
movement of folks, and I startedto be able to see that I had the
power, not alone but incommunity, to make the world in
the image of kind of love andabundance and truth. And so I
think what I would say to 21year olds, and to my 21 year old
(44:03):
self is like, find communitiesthat are like you and nothing
like you, immerse yourself thereand then in that work like
you'll find yourself and yourvoice and you can, you can
really like both be held andhelp to to hold the world in, in
(44:23):
a in a way that like things can,don't have to be this way, and
that we can, we can live in aworld that is so much more just
and beautiful and true than thanhow things are, and to hold on
to that.
Charon Hribar (44:38):
Yeah, and my 21 year old self was living in
South Carolina for a moment whenthe Iraq war was starting, and I
was protesting the Iraq war inSouth Carolina, which was a
little interesting, as you canimagine. And I think to my 21
year old self again, I thinkit's similar. To Liz, though,
(45:00):
is, you know, I knew that Ineeded to say something and that
something was not right, and Ifound a small group of people.
But I think to my 20 year oldself, I would say, know that
there are many more people thatare out there that are doing
this work, and that have beendoing it for many, many years,
for centuries, and for movementsbeyond and to note, to say, you
(45:24):
know that I wasn't alone, thatyou're not alone, and that you
know it's a long struggle. It'sa long haul, as Miles Horton
like to say, and and so eacheach moment and each you know,
step is important, and find moreand more of us that are out
there doing
Joshua Johnson (45:41):
this work. For both of you, anything you've
been reading or watching lately,you could recommend
Liz Theoharis (45:47):
I only are all talking about and or,
Joshua Johnson (45:51):
Yes, love it. I just rewatched season one.
Finished the season finale ofSeason One last night. And so,
yeah, I'm right about
Charon Hribar (46:00):
to finish the season finale of season
Liz Theoharis (46:03):
one campaign of harassment, because it was like,
wait, you haven't watched thisamazing thing and you're doing
social justice organizing. Like,like, come on, yeah, I feel like
I'm obsessed with that
Joshua Johnson (46:16):
nice and or great, great recommendation.
Yeah. Is there anything else?
Sharon,
Charon Hribar (46:23):
no, I was, I was laughing though, because I was
like, Yes. And I was like, Irealized there's not a lot of
singing in that movie. Now,that's true, but, you know, I
still, I'm loving it.
Joshua Johnson (46:35):
Well, yeah, there's the finale. Has some
music. Has some music. So that'sgood. We pray freedom is
available anywhere books aresold. You go and get those and
join in solidarity with thepoor. Have prayers, rituals and
liturgies, so that we canactually see some movement, a
(46:58):
social movement for change andjustice for beauty and good, so
that all people can be liftedup, given dignity and worth,
because we're all human, made inthe image of God, and we're all
worthy of love and be out ofpoverty in all ways. And so
there's more than enough.
There's more than enough in thisworld. We don't need to have a
(47:21):
scarcity mindset, and we don'thave to hoard things because we
think things are going to goaway. There's more than enough
for everybody. Anywhere elsethat you would like to point
people to, how can they connectwith what you're doing and
where? What's what are the bestplaces for that.
Charon Hribar (47:41):
Yeah, I think, you know, definitely follow the
Kairos Center. We're onInstagram and Tiktok and
Facebook and blue sky andLinkedIn, and as well as the
Kairos website is a really greatresource. We're always, you
know, putting resources andinformation there. And as I
mentioned, we will have we prayfreedom.org by September 1 for
(48:05):
the launch of the book, andwe'll be able to also keep
continuing to add resources andconnect folks there. Liz,
anywhere else you would pointfolks,
Liz Theoharis (48:14):
if folks are interested in joining us for the
freedom Church of the poor, wemeet on Wednesday evenings for
bible study at 6pm Eastern Time,and Sunday evenings for kind of
worship and community at 6pmEastern Time. And you can, you
can kind of sign up for thefreedom Church of the poor, like
(48:37):
E News through the KairosCenter's website. But we would
love if people want to come andjoin us virtually. We also
stream them, but really want toinvite people in to hang out
with us in the Zoom Room. It'sjust like a really diverse group
of folks, people of faith,people not of faith, people from
different trades, traditions,folks that are all in struggle
(49:00):
on the front lines of strugglethese days, in August, we'll be
celebrating for the third yearin a row, Black August. If folks
are interested in, in, you know,in coming and taking part,
please, please join us. And thenwe're, we're out in the world,
(49:21):
organizing and, you know, tryingto transform society so that
everyone is in and nobody's out.
So no matter where people arelocated, there are folks that
are connected to this workthere. And if people want to
reach out to us, find out who.
Please, please do
Joshua Johnson (49:42):
Excellent. Well, Liz and Sharon, thank you for
this conversation. Thank you thepeople like you give me hope for
the world, and I know that thereare a lot more people like you
that want to see this workhappen. And so thank you for
collecting these rituals andthese stories. I. Of these
prayers for people as they'regoing to walk and organize for a
(50:04):
more just and beautiful world.
It's a fantastic conversation. Ireally love talking to both of
you. So thank you so much. Do
Charon Hribar (50:11):
you mind if I close us out in this song?
Joshua, Oh, I love it. Let's doit. Great. Yeah, I was just
thinking about the song. Itcomes out of the anti apartheid
movement in South Africa, andit's a song that has been used
in many spaces. It wasoriginally used to learn the
names of political prisoners andto say you're not alone. And so
(50:34):
I was just thinking about thattheme that we've raised and
maybe some listeners are feelingalone in this moment as so much
is going on, but knowing thatactually, when we come together
in this kind of way, that we aresinging each other home to a
different world. And so withthat, I'll just sing a verse of
this song. It says, courage,
Unknown (50:57):
my friend, you do not walk alone, we will walk with
you and sing your Spirit home.
Joshua Johnson (51:27):
Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you. You
Unknown (51:40):
you.
And I think that our communities, our communities
of faith, have to berestructuring edifices that that
are producing beggars and thatare requiring us to have
handouts, and that if we're notdoing that, we're actually not
doing the work of Jesus. YouJoshua,
Joshua Johnson (00:27):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, in this
episode of shifting culture, I'mjoined by Liz Theoharis and
Charon rebar to talk about theirnew book. We pray freedom born
out of the Freedom Church of thepoor. This book gathers prayers
(00:49):
and liturgies and songs thatdon't just comfort individuals,
but equip whole communities toresist empire, to imagine ritual
as collective action and to holdon to hope in the face of
despair. We talk about prayer asa form of protest grounded in
biblical stories like thepersistent widow who demands
justice from an unjust judge. Wehear about communities that
(01:09):
gather in homeless encampmentsoutside immigration courts and
at the US Mexico border, whereprayer isn't an escape from
reality, but a way of namingwhat's wrong and insisting on
change. Liz and Sharon remind usthat rituals of faith have
always carried the cries of themarginalized, and that when we
pray with our feet, sing withour neighbors and create spaces
(01:29):
of solidarity, we join in thestruggle for a more just and
beautiful world. This is aconversation about reclaiming
faith traditions as movementsfor justice, about breaking
cycles of oppression, and abouthow collective prayer and art
can become fuel fortransformation. It's about
abundance instead of scarcity,community instead of isolation,
(01:51):
and hope instead of resignation.
So whether you come from achurch pew, a protest line, or
somewhere in between, thisepisode will invite you to see
prayer and ritual as powerfultools to shift culture, resist
empire and imagine freedomtogether. So join us. Here is my
conversation with Liz Theoharisand Sharon rebar. Liz and
Sharon, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
(02:16):
both of you on so thank you forjoining me. Thanks for having
us. Yes, I'd love to know wepray freedom, this book of
liturgies and prayers fororganizing for justice, the
freedom church for the poor. Howdid this all come about? And
what is this collection? Whatare you hoping to get from this?
Charon Hribar (02:37):
So we pray freedom, as it says, is coming
out of the work of the FreedomChurch of the poor. And the
freedom Church of the poor beganback in 2020 when the pandemic
was full on. And, you know, asfolks were weren't able to kind
of meet in their traditionalspaces of worship or faith
(02:57):
spaces, we started a spaceonline where folks would gather,
a lot of movement leaders whowere driven by faith and and
folks that were also, you know,maybe pastoring traditional
congregations or other faithspaces. Because we again, we
weren't meeting physically. Itbecame an online space that was
really a way for people togather during that time. But
(03:20):
what we found was that it wasalso became a space that people
just really needed. And so ithas actually continued on. It's
a place we talk about it as apolitical and spiritual home for
leaders that are again, bothconnected to social movements,
but also connected to the roleof faith in that work. And so it
has become a place where peoplecome together and really both
(03:43):
share kind of the experiencesand stories of their communities
and the struggles they're a partof, as well as help to sustain
that work through these kind offaith practices. And so the
stories in this book come out ofthat community. And while that
started in 2020 the storiesactually reach much further
back, because many folks in thisnetwork have worked together for
(04:03):
for many years and struggleacross the country. It's people
that have for years seen kind ofthe power that our faith
traditions hold in both likebeing stories or struggle. Our
faith traditions actually arefilled with stories of struggle,
of communities that have, youknow, been fighting for justice
and fighting to sustain theircommunities and fighting for a
(04:24):
different world. So drawing onthose traditions naturally in
the work that we do today, thatthe stories of prayers and
liturgies and songs that havereally held communities across
the country in this work, andyou know, both in the streets,
as well as in spaces of mutualaid and soup kitchens and as
(04:45):
well as spaces where people aregathering to think about what
does organizing for a differentway of living in a different
world that we can see and sothat's really this book is a
compilation of these stories andthese practices and a way for
both. Organizers to think abouthow we are able to like draw on
these traditions and incorporatefaith and cultural practices
(05:07):
into movement building, as wellas for faith communities to
think about and reimagine kindof our our traditions in ways
that call us to social justicework and call us into practices
that are about transforming theworld and again, lifting up the
kind of stories of struggle thatexist in our in our faith
traditions that are there andjust how do we make that
(05:30):
applicable for today?
Joshua Johnson (05:31):
Let's hear you frame prayer as a sort of
protest, and that you couldactually use this in in
organizing. How do you defineprayer in terms of justice
movements, and why is it a formof protest?
Liz Theoharis (05:46):
Yeah, I love this question, and again, thanks so
much for having us here, andit's exciting to be in
conversation about about all ofthis. We use a biblical story to
talk about this kind of prayeras protest, and it's one of my
favorite Bible passages. It'sthe story of this persistent
widow who comes to plead for forjustice to an unjust judge and
(06:10):
and what's amazing to me aboutthis story, even though it's
from 1000s of years ago, is isit describes that this is her
prayer like, this is what itlooks like to prayer, pray
without ceasing. And then itgoes on to tell the story of not
sitting quietly with her headbowed and her hands folded, but
(06:32):
instead, this woman who has beenexperiencing injustice,
marginalization, I imagine,impoverishment and
discrimination, and they don't.
They don't tell us a lot abouther case, but, but we know from
the ancient world, which is notthat different than our world
today. You know, there's allforms and layers of kind of
intersectional injustice goingon and and she comes in front of
(06:54):
a judge, and the the text isreally clear that this judge,
they basically say, doesn't givea damn about other human beings
and doesn't even fear God. Andyet, in her prayer, in her
petitioning this judge, in her Iimagine organizing her community
to come and be in collaborationand solidarity with her, they're
(07:16):
probably experiencing similarinjustices, she's able to win
justice. And so to me, it's likea paradigm or a window into
looking at what prayer andprotest are and and, you know, I
think many of us will, will,will remember this, you know,
famous and powerful statement ofRabbi Joshua Heschel, when he
(07:37):
was marching across the EdmundPettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama,
with Dr King and John Lewis andyou know, many others. And when
his congregation is kind ofsaying, Well, what's, what's the
role of prayer here? And he'slike, Well, I have to pray with
my feet. I think many of us havehave heard, especially those
(07:57):
that are are inclined towardsdoing justice organizing and
freedom organizing, but toactually imagine that that
protest and prayer, you know,whether it's in that case, or
whether it's in the case of thisunjust judge and this persistent
widow, or if it's in the case ofyou know, some of the stories
that we tell in this book. Youknow folks that are petitioning
(08:18):
to not be deported and detained.
Who are, you, know, gatheringwith their colleagues and
singing and praying. But thatprayer is not just bowing your
head and and folding your hands,but it's it's saying, demanding
of society and demanding of ourreligious institutions to be on
(08:38):
the side of of the poor, themarginalized, the immigrant, the
the other. And I think toimagine, in our biblical text,
there are all of these storiesof of the people crying out,
right and and sometimes that cryis is literally a wailing
yesterday, I was outside ofimmigration court in New York
(09:00):
City at the Federal Plaza, andwe literally wailed at the
building as hundreds of peopleare going in, many of them being
detained against judges wishes.
So there's sometimes, though,crying out that's a wailing, and
then sometimes there's a cryingout that's actually like in in
the form of protest, you know,saying this is not just. This is
not right. And it's, it's astory of the Bible that happens
(09:22):
over and over again. It's, it'sonly when people cry out, it's
only when people protest thatthen God hears the cries and and
joins in the struggle forjustice. And so I think what
we're what we're looking at inthis text and in many of the
stories and rituals that arecontained is this kind of call
and response, like people cryout and pray and protest for the
(09:45):
righting of wrongs and God joinsus in lots of different forms of
who God is and who how God showsup for people across religious
tradition and even. Folks thatdo not consider themselves
people of faith, but believe inthe arc of the universe bending,
or at least needing us to bendit towards justice. And so I
(10:08):
think that's where this all kindof plays out for us.
Joshua Johnson (10:13):
I think one of the things that a lot of people,
if I'm looking at social mediaor something, they say, oh, some
horrible thing has happened,pray for them, or I'm gonna do a
little protest, if I'm gonna puta black box or whatever on my
social media page and like, butwhat is the difference then, of
prayer as something to be like,Hey, I'm just gonna pray, or
(10:34):
prayer as protest, prayer aslike, I'm gonna put my feet and
walk my prayers. I'm going to beout there. What's that
difference? And how can we shiftthe culture to say that prayer
actually has some action to it?
Charon Hribar (10:50):
Yeah, I think one of the things is that in our
society, we often, when we saythe word prayer, we have this
like it's an internal thing.
It's our personal conversationwith God. And even when we're
saying we'll pray for you, youknow, it's still we're praying
to God and hoping that somethingwill, you know, happen and and
it, you know, there is power inprayer. And you know, I think
(11:12):
the piece of we've lost a lot ofthe collective sense of what
that means, and theparticipatory sense of what that
means in our culture. And evenyou know, when we think about
you know that we have certaindays that we go and we worship
together. And I had a we had aprofessor at Union years ago
that used to talk about ritualis supposed to be a practice for
(11:34):
us to remind and reinforce inourselves the values that we
believe in, so that we can goand actually do that in the
world, right? And so, you know,when we say we should pray and
we should, you know, it beinvolved in ritual. Ritual is
actually something that is abouta continual practice that we're
doing in our everyday lives,right? It's not reserved only
(11:56):
for that one day a week or thatone special moment, right? But
it's actually about that we haveto go and do this practice. And
I think there's something aboutprayer and ritual that we're
lifting up, both out of thesetraditions and in this book,
that is really about ourcollective practice of, you
know, living out our values oflifting up, kind of a vision of
(12:19):
the world that our you know thatGod and what our faith
traditions are calling for, andyou know so in that you know,
what does that practice becometo look like? You know, it is
takes multiple forms, right? Ittakes the form of protest. It
takes the form of gathering as acommunity to make sure that all
of our needs are met and thatthe justice that our communities
(12:40):
deserve, you know, is actuallylived out in this world. And so
that, I think that's thatcalling and that that redefining
and understanding of prayer andritual in that way,
Joshua Johnson (12:51):
when I'm looking at living in the Empire, which I
am in America, and I live in theempire, and live in a very
strong country, and there arepockets of people that would
love to pray, but they want tohold on to power and Empire. How
can people start to separatethemselves from Empire and then
(13:12):
in the ways of Jesus and embodywho he is for the poor and the
marginalized and the people andthe outcasts, which constantly
is going for. What does it looklike to help separate out and
like, figure out that I've mayhave been influenced more by the
(13:33):
Empire than Jesus?
Liz Theoharis (13:36):
Mean, I love this. It also makes me think
again about the Bible, because Ithink where John the Baptizer
shows up is out in thewilderness, because he has to
kind of pull people away fromthe trappings of empire, right?
Like to both imagine what itreally is to worship God, to
imagine what kind of communitywe could be living in, you know,
(13:59):
kind of the beloved community,the kind of ideals of of a
community of faith, right? And afaith, not just in, you know,
Jesus, but a faith of Jesus,right, which means turning over
tables. I mean, one of ourcolleagues has been showing up
with this sticker and this tshirt recently that says, like,
why are you trying to sit at thetables that Jesus would turn
(14:20):
over, right? Like, and I thinkit's like, that's kind of the
question I hear you posing, andI think we struggle with it all
the time, right? We are livingin one of the richest countries
in human history before some ofthis most extremist you know,
this, this reconciliation billand other kind of amazing,
unbelievable transfers of wealthand power from the bottom to the
(14:42):
top. That's happening. Wealready had almost half of the
country living in in forms ofpoverty, marginalization, you
know, like, I mean, this is agreat definition of empire,
right? And yet, it is reallytrue that so many of us are
being. Kind of trapped byEmpire, and can't even quite see
(15:04):
all the ways that we're not, notjust with our individual
actions, but just with the withour body politic, like how we're
being shaped and and and doingexactly what those in power want
us, which is opposite of of whatit is to be, you know, truly
obedient and living in to towhat our sacred texts and
(15:26):
traditions, you know, say, andthat's not just Christianity,
but you know, as a Christianpastor, I'm, I'm speaking
particularly from Christianity,and so I mean what I have found,
and what I think we are tryingto show through all of these
prayers and rituals in this bookand and in the practices of the
Freedom Church of the poor andand and beyond, is that what
(15:49):
kind of can break through thatis the bold and visionary
actions of folks whose backs areagainst the wall, as Howard
Thurman talks about it, and haveno choice but to push instead of
just kind of asking people,like, hey, just pay attention to
where you are. Instead of just,like, going to a church and
trying to, you know, preach adifferent sermon. All those
(16:12):
things are great. We need to doit. But, but like, like thinking
about something, like the womanwith a flow of blood in the
Bible, like, how she she doesn'twait for someone else to do
something. She just like, goesin, she takes action. That bold
action changes everything. Itkind of uncovers the Empire, and
it makes people respond. And,you know, I think about whether
(16:33):
it's on House folks taking overan abandoned church, and then,
you know, causing a huge uproarand a conversation and debate in
our faith communities aboutwhat, what should the religious
response to poverty be, orwhether it's, you know, us
putting up a huge memorial tothe millions that have died from
covid when the rest of society,just like wouldn't, wouldn't,
(16:56):
actually stop and mourn, anddeveloping a ritual out of that
like, I think we see that whenyou know poor and marginalized
communities, you know are ableto kind of arrest the attention
of the nation and and and comeforward with bold ritual and
protest, that then it makes usquestion, and it creates a
(17:18):
little bit of that wilderness inany place, because it's you
start to unveil what the Empireis and what it's doing, and show
that we don't have to actuallyall just like, bow our heads and
and, you know, and bow to this,but that actually we can. We can
join those that have that arebeing compelled into action and
(17:41):
have to do something new, ortheir very lives and livelihoods
and survival is at risk and at
Joshua Johnson (17:49):
stake. If you're organizing against Empire while
living in the empire, it couldbe dangerous, because any any
power that controls and wantsauthority is going to crack down
to make sure that control andauthority stays, but there are a
lot of cracks in that. So canyou give me an example of what,
(18:12):
what organizing ritual prayerprotests, how that subverts
empire and helps people, butmaybe even in a way that it is
dangerous and we could count thecost, and the cost is worth it.
Charon Hribar (18:29):
There's two examples I wanted to share in
thinking about that. The first,I mean, one, I think, is
especially in this moment wherewe see this rise of kind of
white Christian nationalism andauthoritarianism kind of being a
dominant narrative. And I thinkit does want to have prayer be
this internal, personal, youknow, space and just claiming
(18:50):
that it's, you know, on the sideof those in power. I think about
a story that we tell in the bookabout community in Aberdeen,
Washington, and they, they did aStations of the Cross to remind
folks that, you know, what wasthe cross? You know, was a
symbol of empire, right? Andequating and talking about that
in their community as you know,Jesus was crucified by the
(19:14):
Empire, and what was that crossthat he was, you know, it's not
that he it's, you know, we tella story that removes that story
from the systems of empire. Andso they, when they did the
Stations of the Cross, theyactually, you know, it was a
community in Aberdeen wherehomeless, especially young
people, and that had becomehomeless because of lack of
(19:35):
employment in their communities,you know, and and with that, not
having opportunities to, youknow, really find other jobs and
kind of the then infiltration ofdrugs and other things that just
were, you know, plaguing thatcommunity, and really telling
them that they're not worthy,right, that they're it's their
fault that they're in thissituation, and by taking up the
(19:57):
Stations of the Cross with thestories of. Of of the people in
that encampment that were livingin a homeless encampment, and
talking about the different waysthat the Empire was crushing
them, you know, whether it beby, you know, because of, you
know, drug addiction, by beingkilled by police, by, you know,
people's children being takenaway. They actually, through
(20:19):
each station, told those storiesand people seeing themselves in
the story of Jesus and pushingback against the Empire by
coming together, right? And, youknow, I think that that is a way
to show this kind of counternarrative of what this kind of
authoritarian narrative isright, by Re reconnecting the
story of Jesus to the stories ofthese struggling communities.
(20:42):
The other story I wanted totell, and thinking about, you
talked about, you know, there isdanger in it, but also, how do
we reach the people that, insome ways, are also just pawns
of this system? And I wasthinking about an action we did
at the border back in 2019 2018or 2019 when the migrant caravan
was coming up to the San DiegoTijuana border, and we had a
(21:07):
large group of multi faithleaders and other, you know,
people of moral conscience thatwere doing a protest and silent
protest and prayerful proteststo the border to stand in
solidarity with migrants and ourRight to, you know, to migrate
and to, you know, claim asylum,which is quite relevant in this
moment as well, and in that wewere, you know, confronted by a,
(21:30):
you know, every kind of level oflaw enforcement, border patrol,
you know, military, localpolice, you know, in riot gear
For a peaceful protest. Youknow, as we were there, there
was we talk about in the book,you know, we were also singing
songs that, you know, some ofthem were, you know, kind of
(21:52):
rallying the crowd and talkingabout our standing with our
sisters and brothers, you know,or migrating, and the need for
that no one is illegal. But asthe kind of tensions grew,
especially with the folks thatwere there, kind of defending
the border, right, we started tosing a song that said, love,
(22:13):
love, love, love. Sisters,brothers. Hear our call. We will
not bow to injustice. God lovesus all, but in a tone that was
also, like, really penetratingthe folks that were standing
there, you know, defending theborder in their riot gear, of
saying, like, you don't have todo this, right? I think we see
(22:35):
this in this moment, as we see,you know, folks being detained
and folks being, you know, andgoing to immigration courts. And
I think people in communitiesare really also like seeing, you
know, police officers coming tostand with, you know,
communities, and because we seepeople in our communities that
are being harmed, and we knowthat the kind of narratives that
(22:55):
they're saying about who thesepeople are not true, right? And
so being able to expose thatthrough these rituals, and to be
able to connect to one anotheron a human level, right, and to
call out the sacredness that isin every life, right, that is a
really important part of thesekind of rituals, to to kind of
(23:17):
acknowledge that humanity and tosee that we're all, we all can
be against what the kind ofempire and what the powers that
be are doing.
Joshua Johnson (23:25):
I think in in history, I I've seen a lot of
the people that have beenoppressed, that have come and
found some justice, they startto take power, and then they
oppress others. There's there'sthis cycle of oppression that
that happens, I would love tobreak that cycle, that we could
say there is enough for everyonethat we're, you know, the poor
(23:47):
and the marginalized are, are intogether, and we could be be one
and united. How do we break thatcycle? What is this better world
that you're imagining? What doesit look like I
Liz Theoharis (24:01):
really appreciate this, and I feel like I both see
that play out, and I also feellike when poor and marginalized
folk are able to win changes asa collective and a community, it
doesn't always have to play outthat way, and that I think
instead, sometimes, often, thosein power that say like, you
(24:23):
know, power corrupts andabsolute, power corrupts
absolutely, because they're moreor less saying, like, you don't
want to be like me, you know,like and instead of exactly, let
me just keep it right now, I'm,you know, we know it's it's
gonna taint you, it's gonnacorrupt you, right? And I think
it really does come down to, arepeople there as individuals, or
(24:46):
are we able to build the kind ofpower that holds those in power,
whether they're coming from poorand marginalized communities and
experiences or not accountable?
And so I think so often. And inthe more recent, kind of
organizing world changing whoindividually has a position of
power is what people attempt todo, instead of kind of changing
(25:09):
how it's done in the firstplace. I imagine, for instance,
we've learned a lot aroundritual and and protest and
organization from differentfolks across the world. And so I
think about like the largestsocial movement of peasants in
the Western Hemisphere. They'recalled the MST, the movemento
sometera. They're in Brazil, andthey're, you know, one to 2
(25:31):
million peasant families thatare organized, landless families
that are organized together. Youknow, they play on a national
level, they're organized inevery state across Brazil.
They've built alliances withpeople in power. They've helped
to establish schools through thefederal government that are just
the public schools, but they'rekind of run by folks that are
(25:52):
part of the movement, and intheir examples and in the way
that they are organized, likethey understand that their power
comes from the people. And sothey're, you know, hyper
democratic movement eachencampment, like each kind of
tent city that people are livingat, you know, elects, you know,
a diverse grouping of peoplethat that represent that
(26:15):
encampment. And then they theygo to, like, the next body of
people, and it's, again, a verylike it's very representational,
and folks are therefore veryaccountable, and they've been
able to show, I think, us, how abottom up movement actually
looks and can be organized. Andthen, therefore, when people are
in positions of power andauthority, including politically
(26:37):
and economically in society, howit can stay accountable to the
kind of needs and demands ofpeople. But in this country, I
think about, you know, some ofthe different organizing we've
been a part of, and includingwith unhoused folk and low wage
workers. And there's some ofthat. I mean, I think about a
(26:59):
group like the coal is from amotley workers down in in
southwest Florida who have beenable to kind of bring a bunch of
the fast food corporations andgrocery store chains to their
knees because of the kind oforganization and discipline and
power that a group of mainlyundocumented immigrants have
been able to build that are someof the lowest paid workers that
(27:22):
are left out of the LaborRelations Act. You know? I mean,
this should be a veryvulnerable, very marginalized
group, and they have been ableto hold folk accountable because
they're united, because they'reorganized. You know, those two
examples are, are examples oflike what it looks like to be in
grassroots ministries orchurches or communities and be
(27:46):
really united. Where it's notthat you think that getting one
person elected is going to savethe day, but the movement, you
know, sends folks to apply torun for those elected offices,
and then they understood thatthey're accountable to the
people and to the community andto the movement if and when
(28:06):
they're elected, and not to thekind of interests and and so I
think it's, it's it's not easy,but I think we are seeing
examples of of that kind ofpower building and that kind of
accountability that folks candemand. I think that feels
really distance in this moment,because when you have a kind of
an authoritarian regime, it'slike the absolute opposite, but
(28:28):
also it's, it's what many peopleare kind of demanding of this
moment and and so I think, Ithink, I think it could break
through.
Joshua Johnson (28:39):
I hope it can break through. And I hope we
could could see that. But if youlook at bottom up movements in a
lot of places, you're looking ata there's like micro level
changes that we're trying tomake at a smaller level, maybe
community level. How does thatget to the the macro to see a
large change in in a country ofthree, 30 million people, how
(29:05):
does it move from micro to macroto see big changes?
Charon Hribar (29:11):
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things you know
that we often reflect on in ourwork and in ways in this book,
is, you know, the really theneed to study social movements
and to study how does changehappen? Because I think we often
either see just what's happeningat the top and like the kind of
final legislation that we'll gothrough, or we see the very
(29:33):
local things that we'reconnected to, right? But when
you look at and you study kindof things like the abolitionist
movement or the civil rightsmovement or the labor movement,
you know that, like there were,so there have to be all of these
pieces happening simultaneouslyand right, and that there have
to be, especially, I think whatwe, I think, Miss sometimes, is,
(29:54):
you know how what that localwork has to be about building
long term. Permanently organizedcommunities of tight knit people
that then when we can createkind of the spaces of coalition
and campaigns that can be aboutbuilding a larger force to kind
of move those larger bodies ofyou know, whether it be
(30:15):
legislation or even more furtherprogressive change, right, that
we're able to kind of connectthose people. And so it's a lot
about, how do we then put peoplein relationship to one another
that are doing that local work?
But we can't. We can't bypasseither side of that, right? We
can't just call for somethingnational and, you know, and
think that if we can just getall of kind of the national
(30:37):
entities together, if they don'thave a base of people that are
doing that deep local organizingwork, and that might not, that
might look really different,right? It might take many
different forms. And I think oneof the things we lift up is it
can take, you know, the form ofhanding out food in a food
pantry or serving soup in a soupkitchen, but that is a way of of
(30:57):
really knowing the people inyour community and knowing that,
like that, understanding andtalking about the issues that
are impacting our community,that can then be connected. And
there has to be an intentionalspace to actually then connect
it to something bigger as well,right? Like it doesn't just
magically happen, right? And sothere does need to then be the
(31:18):
work of kind of, buildingleadership, of connecting that
leadership, and, you know,moving toward a political
program. But again, I thinkit's, it's a recognition that
you have to kind of understandthat there are kind of many
stairs on the staircase right,and you can't just kind of jump
over them.
Joshua Johnson (31:36):
When I think of Jesus, I think of Luke chapter
four, and what he actuallypresents and says, This is what
I'm all about, right? As I'mbringing good news to the poor,
like, that's the one of thefirst things that he says that
he's about, and he says it'sbeen fulfilled. So he's he's all
about the poor. Can you speak tofaith communities that actually
(31:57):
may have a lot of money, maybeare the rich, and they look at
the poor and say, we're going togive some money. We're doing our
stuff. We're just giving money.
How does something like this?
How can we pray freedom beutilized within richer faith
(32:18):
communities to have some moresolidarity with the poor,
identify more with the poor, andnot just like give handouts to
the
Liz Theoharis (32:27):
poor. Absolutely, amen, that is the question. And
I love the example from Lukefour, right? Because what?
What's clearly going on in this,in this passage, for one good
news, gospel, Evangelion, right?
I mean, it's at the core of whatit's supposed to be to be a
person of faith, right? Andsomehow we, for one, have
(32:48):
spiritualized that, right? AndAnd so somehow the gospel and
the good news are like, areotherworldly. And, you know, all
of these things, there's,there's nowhere that Jesus says
that, right? I mean, the prayerthat he teaches is, like,
canceled debts, you know, like,I mean, just, like, Sure,
spiritualized, exactly, right,just the way we have
(33:11):
spiritualized all of this stuff.
And then also in that text fromLuke four, I mean, it's, it's
good news to the patokos, likethose who have been made poor by
injustice. And so the good news,like, for one, it's not the bad
news of eviction and healthcarecuts and snap cuts. I mean, we
just have to be very clear thatanyone that calls themselves a
(33:31):
Christian and is is passingpolicies that prey on the poor
is in contradiction with theinaugural sermon of Jesus and
the the core teachings andbeliefs and so like that hard
stop. We have to, we have tonotice that. We have to call
that out. We have to show thatthat is there. There couldn't
be, actually much more onChristian than that. But then
(33:54):
second is that, like, the goodnews is not individualized. I
mean, good news is about, youknow, restructuring society from
the bottom up. It's about, youknow, canceling debts and paying
workers living wages. And sotherefore, if our faith
communities are interested indoing charity and not justice,
if our, you know, more wealthyfaith communities and
(34:16):
institutions, you know, thinkthat throwing handouts at at
individuals, instead ofadvocating for a society that
puts people first and that liftsfrom the bottom so everybody
rises again. That also, inaddition to like, you know,
calling out the the like socalled Christians that are
(34:38):
passing policies to cut peopleoff of Medicaid being anathema.
We actually have to call out,you know, well meaning, wealthy
Christians who think thatcharity and handouts are living
into Matthew 25 or Luke four, orany of these texts out as well,
because it's, it's that's not atall what we're learning. It's
not at all what Jesus. Issuggesting, you know, he, he,
(35:02):
he's talking about reallyrestructuring society in the
image of justice and abundancefor all right, like that's what
the reign of God, the kingdom ofGod, you know, is, is to be. And
so I think there's a place tokind of unite with, with
Christian communities and faithinstitutions that that out of
(35:23):
the kindness and the goodness oftheir their hearts and their
their faith are are figuring outhow to buy bikes for kids and
how to, you know, feed peoplelike that's important, but if
it's not linked to then kind ofthis more structural change even
I think about a favorite quotefrom Dr King, where he talks
about true compassion is morethan flinging a coin at a
(35:46):
beggar. It, it. It requiresrestructuring at edifice that
has produced beggars, right? AndI think that our communities,
our communities of faith, haveto be restructuring edifices
that that are producing beggarsand that are requiring us to
have handouts, and that if we'renot doing that, we're actually
(36:06):
not doing the work of Jesus.
It's not to make us feel bad,it's not to make us feel guilty,
it's not to say we're not doingenough. It's like, okay, how do
we figure and configure the workof our churches and our faith
institutions to be actuallybringing about the good news,
which, which means both on apolicy level and a structural
level, and and it means actualtransformative change in
(36:31):
people's lives, not, you know, alittle bit of food for a hot
minute, and then where we mostlypat ourselves in the back, and
mostly are proud and and, youknow, I think the most famous,
famous passage in the Bibleabout poverty, which is the poor
will be with you always. I thinkit's telling us exactly the
opposite of what it's beeninterpreted as, saying where, I
(36:54):
think people there also takethat passage to be like the best
we can do is is handouts andcharity. And I think that what's
happening by Jesus quotingDeuteronomy 15, one of the most
radical Jubilee passages in theBible, like we're we're being
reminded that, like that,handouts and proceeds to the
(37:15):
poor are not what works and thatand not what God requires, and
not what Jesus is teaches, butinstead, actually just are a
part of keeping an empire inplace. And what instead we're
required to do is to, is to, youknow, organize society around
(37:36):
the needs of everybody, whichmeans starting with those that
are most marginalized and andpushed
Joshua Johnson (37:45):
out good word.
What do you hope and how canpeople use we pray, freedom.
What does it look like to takethese liturgies, these rituals,
and utilize some of these thingswithin their communities, the
things that they're organizingfor?
Charon Hribar (37:59):
Well, the book is really set together to be of a
resource that people can use incommunity and and, you know, and
personal reflection. But reallywe, I think we do see it being
used in community. The way it'sset up is, often we tell the
story and context of acommunity. And you know, where
does this ritual come out of?
And then it offers, you know,whether it be a prayer or a
(38:21):
liturgy or a song, the actualpiece. And then there's often
kind of reflection questions atthe end of each section to think
and to think about reallyapplying it in your community.
And so, you know, it's, it'smeant to create parallels for
people. You know, we all haveunique experiences, but it's
also tapping into, like, what isthe, you know, the human
(38:43):
experience, and what are thestruggles of our communities?
And while they might be exactlythe same, we can find, you know,
it's helping us unearth andthink about, you know, our own
our own struggles in our owncommunities. And so it's really
like people can, you know, takekind of the prayers and songs
and use them. Or it can also bea way to inspire people to kind
of reimagine these kind ofrituals. You know, it, it goes
(39:05):
from anywhere from like taking acommunion ritual that has a very
basic, you know, it's the samewords, right? That might be
recited, but it takes it,instead of just doing it in your
church on Sunday, it takes itinto a homeless encampment. What
does it look like who we'repracticing communion with,
right? And so there's lots ofdifferent touch points for
communities to connect with inthis book, and to be able to
(39:28):
think about both like creatingnew rituals and giving examples
of that, as well as reimagining,you know, prayers and rituals
that they might already useregularly. But how do we
reconnect them to these likelong stories of struggle that
are in our faith traditions andand bring those to life in
current struggles. And then onelast thing I'll add is that we
(39:48):
are currently creating a websitethat will be a companion website
for the book. And in the book,as you read it, there are little
icons that remind you you can goto this website and. Because
they offer actually, like thevideos of songs and, you know,
kind of further videos ofdifferent kind of rituals, so
that people can see that andhear it as well as read it, so
(40:10):
that they can further beinspired and bring that story to
life
Joshua Johnson (40:16):
briefly, before I move to a few questions. I
really like to ask at the end, Iwant to know if you're looking
at songs, also things like arts,different creative prophetic
acts, how does that help theprophetic movements, just the
arts and and culture and songs?
How does that move the needle?
Charon Hribar (40:42):
Over and over again? You know, I think we
recognize when you can bringsong and culture into movement
spaces. It helps to connect us,I think, both to a real history
of struggle, like by teachingsongs that have been used and
and the creation of new ones.
But there's something thathappens beyond kind of just
(41:03):
being able to talk about thingswhen you're using art and
culture, right? You're able totap into deeply held emotions
and beliefs and feelings bythese kind of prophetic
traditions of using music. Andwe, you know, we talk, I talk a
lot about how, in some ways,like music actually
scientifically connects us,because as we sing together, we
(41:26):
actually start to breathetogether, and our hearts meet
together. And there's somethingphysically that happens when
we're actually able to kind ofengage in these practices
collectively. And I think it'salso a way of, kind of bringing
participatory art and music backinto these kind of spaces.
Because I think in our society,we do a lot of absorbing
(41:47):
culture, right? We watch a lotof things, we listen to a lot of
things. We go to, maybeconcerts. We might sing along a
little bit, but, but reallyhaving this practice of doing
this collectively and learningto again, lift our voices
together, I think we found isjust immensely transformative,
and it hope it can shape thewhole tone of that space, right?
Like when we do music in aprotest, you know, you you
(42:09):
control if it's done well,right? Whether Do you want that
to be this, like high energy,like we need to kind of move
moment, or do we need toactually, kind of collectively,
be able to sit with the like,deep despair and death that is
happening, like, we have to knowwhat kind of tone we're setting.
And I think music and and kindof the messages through the
(42:31):
visual arts as well, like,really help encapsulate that and
bring people into a space andand see it in a different way.
We're not just hearing peopletell us about it, right? We're,
participating in
Joshua Johnson (42:41):
it. I mean, I love that. I mean even taking it
into scripture, and Ephesians,as Paul is talking about
singing, He's instructing us asa community to sing together, to
bring a psalm, a hymn, spiritualsongs. And as we're doing that
in community that brings ustogether, that says, hey, now we
(43:02):
have one heart moving in aspecific direction. It's just
Yeah, it is. It's key for bothof you, Liz and Sharon, if you
go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would
Liz Theoharis (43:16):
you give? I love this. So when I was 21 I had
already been introduced to theNational Union of the homeless
and the national welfare rightsunion to grassroots anti poverty
movements and networks like mylife was transformed, right? And
so I think because I was kind ofwelcomed in to this, like,
(43:39):
really diverse geographic,racial, age, income level,
movement of folks, and I startedto be able to see that I had the
power, not alone but incommunity, to make the world in
the image of kind of love andabundance and truth. And so I
think what I would say to 21year olds, and to my 21 year old
(44:03):
self is like, find communitiesthat are like you and nothing
like you, immerse yourself thereand then in that work like
you'll find yourself and yourvoice and you can, you can
really like both be held andhelp to to hold the world in, in
(44:23):
a in a way that like things can,don't have to be this way, and
that we can, we can live in aworld that is so much more just
and beautiful and true than thanhow things are, and to hold on
to that.
Charon Hribar (44:38):
Yeah, and my 21 year old self was living in
South Carolina for a moment whenthe Iraq war was starting, and I
was protesting the Iraq war inSouth Carolina, which was a
little interesting, as you canimagine. And I think to my 21
year old self again, I thinkit's similar. To Liz, though,
(45:00):
is, you know, I knew that Ineeded to say something and that
something was not right, and Ifound a small group of people.
But I think to my 20 year oldself, I would say, know that
there are many more people thatare out there that are doing
this work, and that have beendoing it for many, many years,
for centuries, and for movementsbeyond and to note, to say, you
(45:24):
know that I wasn't alone, thatyou're not alone, and that you
know it's a long struggle. It'sa long haul, as Miles Horton
like to say, and and so eacheach moment and each you know,
step is important, and find moreand more of us that are out
there doing
Joshua Johnson (45:41):
this work. For both of you, anything you've
been reading or watching lately,you could recommend
Liz Theoharis (45:47):
I only are all talking about and or,
Joshua Johnson (45:51):
Yes, love it. I just rewatched season one.
Finished the season finale ofSeason One last night. And so,
yeah, I'm right about
Charon Hribar (46:00):
to finish the season finale of season
Liz Theoharis (46:03):
one campaign of harassment, because it was like,
wait, you haven't watched thisamazing thing and you're doing
social justice organizing. Like,like, come on, yeah, I feel like
I'm obsessed with that
Joshua Johnson (46:16):
nice and or great, great recommendation.
Yeah. Is there anything else?
Sharon,
Charon Hribar (46:23):
no, I was, I was laughing though, because I was
like, Yes. And I was like, Irealized there's not a lot of
singing in that movie. Now,that's true, but, you know, I
still, I'm loving it.
Joshua Johnson (46:35):
Well, yeah, there's the finale. Has some
music. Has some music. So that'sgood. We pray freedom is
available anywhere books aresold. You go and get those and
join in solidarity with thepoor. Have prayers, rituals and
liturgies, so that we canactually see some movement, a
(46:58):
social movement for change andjustice for beauty and good, so
that all people can be liftedup, given dignity and worth,
because we're all human, made inthe image of God, and we're all
worthy of love and be out ofpoverty in all ways. And so
there's more than enough.
There's more than enough in thisworld. We don't need to have a
(47:21):
scarcity mindset, and we don'thave to hoard things because we
think things are going to goaway. There's more than enough
for everybody. Anywhere elsethat you would like to point
people to, how can they connectwith what you're doing and
where? What's what are the bestplaces for that.
Charon Hribar (47:41):
Yeah, I think, you know, definitely follow the
Kairos Center. We're onInstagram and Tiktok and
Facebook and blue sky andLinkedIn, and as well as the
Kairos website is a really greatresource. We're always, you
know, putting resources andinformation there. And as I
mentioned, we will have we prayfreedom.org by September 1 for
(48:05):
the launch of the book, andwe'll be able to also keep
continuing to add resources andconnect folks there. Liz,
anywhere else you would pointfolks,
Liz Theoharis (48:14):
if folks are interested in joining us for the
freedom Church of the poor, wemeet on Wednesday evenings for
bible study at 6pm Eastern Time,and Sunday evenings for kind of
worship and community at 6pmEastern Time. And you can, you
can kind of sign up for thefreedom Church of the poor, like
(48:37):
E News through the KairosCenter's website. But we would
love if people want to come andjoin us virtually. We also
stream them, but really want toinvite people in to hang out
with us in the Zoom Room. It'sjust like a really diverse group
of folks, people of faith,people not of faith, people from
different trades, traditions,folks that are all in struggle
(49:00):
on the front lines of strugglethese days, in August, we'll be
celebrating for the third yearin a row, Black August. If folks
are interested in, in, you know,in coming and taking part,
please, please join us. And thenwe're, we're out in the world,
(49:21):
organizing and, you know, tryingto transform society so that
everyone is in and nobody's out.
So no matter where people arelocated, there are folks that
are connected to this workthere. And if people want to
reach out to us, find out who.
Please, please do
Joshua Johnson (49:42):
Excellent. Well, Liz and Sharon, thank you for
this conversation. Thank you thepeople like you give me hope for
the world, and I know that thereare a lot more people like you
that want to see this workhappen. And so thank you for
collecting these rituals andthese stories. I. Of these
prayers for people as they'regoing to walk and organize for a
(50:04):
more just and beautiful world.
It's a fantastic conversation. Ireally love talking to both of
you. So thank you so much. Do
Charon Hribar (50:11):
you mind if I close us out in this song?
Joshua, Oh, I love it. Let's doit. Great. Yeah, I was just
thinking about the song. Itcomes out of the anti apartheid
movement in South Africa, andit's a song that has been used
in many spaces. It wasoriginally used to learn the
names of political prisoners andto say you're not alone. And so
(50:34):
I was just thinking about thattheme that we've raised and
maybe some listeners are feelingalone in this moment as so much
is going on, but knowing thatactually, when we come together
in this kind of way, that we aresinging each other home to a
different world. And so withthat, I'll just sing a verse of
this song. It says, courage,
Unknown (50:57):
my friend, you do not walk alone, we will walk with
you and sing your Spirit home.
Joshua Johnson (51:27):
Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you. You
Unknown (51:40):
you.
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