What happens when the church trades the way of Jesus for the way of empire? In this episode of Shifting Culture, I talk with theologian and activist Drew Hart about his latest book, Making It Plain. We trace the long history of Christendom, the Doctrine of Discovery, and the legacies of white supremacy that continue to shape American Christianity today. But this isn’t just a conversation about what went wrong. Drew offers a hopeful vision he calls Anablactivism - a merging of Anabaptist discipleship and the prophetic witness of the Black church. Together we explore how these traditions, born on the underside of oppression, can help us recover a faith that looks like Jesus: rooted in solidarity, committed to justice, and pursuing God’s Shalom in our neighborhoods and the world. If you’ve wrestled with Christian nationalism, wondered how to disentangle faith from power, or longed for a discipleship that takes Jesus seriously, this conversation will both challenge and inspire you.
Rev. Dr. Drew G. I. Hart is an associate professor of theology at Messiah University where he has directed the Thriving Together: Congregations for Racial Justice program in central PA since 2021. He co-hosts Inverse Podcast with Australian peace activist Jarrod McKenna and is the author of Trouble I've Seen: Changing the Way the Church Views Racism (2016), Who Will Be A Witness?: Igniting Activism for God's Justice, Love, and Deliverance (2020), and he co-edited and contributed to Reparations and the Theological Disciplines: Prophetic Voices for Remembrance, Reckoning, and Repair (Nov. 2023). His newest book is Making It Plain: Why We Need Anabaptism and the Black Church (September 2, 2025). Drew regularly speaks at colleges, conferences, churches, and community groups across the country. He is married to Renee and is the father of three sons.
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Drew's Recommendations:
God's Apocalyptic Insurrection
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
We're deeply, deeply informed by a society that has
(00:03):
this disease Christianity, whereour values and our concerns look
nothing like the person that wesee testify to by Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John and so, I mean,those are some of the
challenges. Is that right now welive the past is not past. It is
with us. It still lives on andit hogs us, and until we break
(00:24):
the cycle and find God'sdeliverance, even from our own
Christian history, we're goingto perpetuate it in new ways.
You
Joshua Johnson (00:40):
foreign Hello and welcome to the shifting
culture podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. Today,we're going to step back and ask
some hard, but necessaryquestions. How did Christianity
(01:00):
once a radical movement ofordinary people following A
crucified Messiah becomes sodeeply entangled with Empire and
power, what does it mean thatthe church has carried forward
the legacies of conquest,slavery and white supremacy? And
how do we disentangle our faithfrom those histories so that it
looks like Jesus again? That'swhere today's guest, theologian
(01:21):
and activist drew Hart helps us.
He walks us through the longstory of Christendom, the
Doctrine of Discovery, and theways those forces still shape
our society, from massincarceration to Christian
nationalism. But thisconversation isn't just about
naming what's broken. It's aboutseeing what's possible. Drew
offers a vision he callsanabolactivism, a bringing
together of the Anabaptistcommitment to radical
(01:44):
discipleship, to Jesus and theblack Church's prophetic
witness. It's a way of followingJesus that's rooted in
solidarity with the oppressedcommunities of mutual care and
the pursuit of God's Shalom hereand now. So if you're ready to
reckon with where we've been,wrestle with where we are and
imagine what faithfuldiscipleship could look like
(02:05):
today, you're in the rightplace. So join us. Here is my
conversation with Drew Hart.
DREW Welcome to shiftingculture. Thank you so much for
joining me. Really excited tohave you on
Unknown (02:19):
Thank you, Joshua. I'm glad to be in conversation with
Joshua Johnson (02:21):
you. Yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit of
like your your background ofbeing in the lineage of
preachers for generations. Howdid that inform some of your
life? And then what did you say?
I'm gonna take something of myown moving forward as well.
Unknown (02:40):
It was just a reality when I was young. You know, you
just know that your dad's apastor and your grandfather. My
grandfather was a churchplanter. Started, I think,
around like 10 churches on theEast Coast, mostly in like the
Philly, you know, area, but ashigh as Boston and as South as
Baltimore. So I always knew thatmy last name in certain spaces
(03:03):
carried a little weight, andtheir expectations placed upon
Me. Because of that, it also canbe restricting a little bit in
terms of people's, you know,those expectations of what that
means for how you're going tolive your life and the choices
you're going to make. And so Ifelt all of that, but was often
very proud to have the lineageof pastors and preachers that go
(03:23):
back multiple generations withinmy family. At the same time I
did go off, I intentionallychose to go to college two hours
away outside of the Phillybubble, so that nobody would
know my name and I could just beme and kind of discover who I
am, what I believed for myself.
And I do think, you know,there's a lot that I have
received and inherited, and I'vehad to also process things that
(03:46):
have been different. And so Igrew up in a context where our
church often call it blackevangelicalism as the color way
of framing it, not a term thatwe would have used then, but I
say that to say it was a kind ofevangelicalism, but not the same
as what I found to be mostcommon in many mainstream white
(04:08):
evangelical spaces. But therewas also some shared theological
doctrines, beliefs and practicesthat were shared with a
difference, certainly in thecommunity that I was raised, I
inherited something that I mean,many things that I hold on to
very dearly. One, just beingthat Jesus is at the center of
our faith, right? How importantthat was in my community, Jesus
(04:30):
felt like a family member interms of how often he was spoken
of, engaged, interacted with inthe life of our community, and
was central and really thefoundation of our faith. And
that really has never left me,and I'm just so grateful for
that inheritance, the love forscripture, reading scripture and
thinking with scripture,believing that it should norm
(04:52):
our lives. That is all somethingthat has deeply shaped faith as
well. And so yeah, there's allthese things. Things that have
carried on a certain I even talkabout, sometimes about a certain
kind of like black pietism,rights of faith, that has shaped
just me seeking to encounterGod, not just head knowledge,
but to experience God in my ownlife, and seeking after that,
(05:14):
the kind of transformation,inner transformation that I
expect to happen as well. Soyeah, I'm so grateful for all
that, as I also have stepped outinto other traditions. And
wouldn't call myself a blackevangelical today, though I'm
deep friends with many whoactually still live in that
stream, but I would, yeah,definitely have kind of shifted
in some of my beliefs andpractices that are both informed
(05:36):
by some of those previousthings, but also informed by
other streams of Christianity aswell.
Joshua Johnson (05:44):
And I think as we look at your book, making it
plain, as you trace some of thehistory of Christendom at
Western Christianity, you tracehow the church has been
complicit in a lot of harm,injustice that has happened, but
also that there is some thebeautiful essentials of who
Jesus is and how people haveactually said, let's follow,
(06:04):
follow the way of Jesus and notempire. So we're doing that sort
of work as a, you know, macroscale, as some of you know, we
all should do some of that workat a micro scale as well. What
are the things that have beenput upon us, the expectations
that we have growing up, andthen where is Jesus in the midst
of it, and what does our faithreally look like? So can you
(06:27):
help us? Then go back to themacro level, and I want to trace
a little bit of Christianity,and I think that's going to help
us get into your core thesis ofthe book of merging some of this
anabaptism And the black churchtradition together. So let's
start with the story ofChristendom. How did the church
(06:48):
move from a place of, you know,outsider kingdom, Jesus
mentality, into an enmeshing ofempire and go that direction?
Unknown (06:59):
Yeah, yeah. And so this will be the Spark Notes version.
And even I feel like my book isstill even more Spark Notes than
what I could offer, right?
Because it's such a complicatedhistory. But for our listeners,
I think what's helpful for us tounderstand is, yeah, that I mean
early Christians, they had nopolitical power. They didn't
(07:20):
have the levers of thegovernment working in their
favor, rights, and they didexperience periodic persecution.
Sometimes we overstate exactlywhat that meant, as if it was
just non stop and just beingslaughtered all the time. That's
not true, but there is GeneralHostility that many of them are
experiencing, and then there arethe seasons of intensified,
(07:40):
usually local and regionalpersecutions that are taking
place, though some of the moresevere ones and broader Imperial
ones happen as the centuries goAnd so Christians, as some have
said, like it took convictionand courage to be Christian.
You're not just signing up forthis willy nilly. There's no
cultural Christianity where youjust kind of take it nominally.
(08:02):
It's got to mean somethingsignificant for you. And so you
have these communities that areforming on the grounds that are
caring for those that arevulnerable and stigmatized in
society, and they're seeking tofollow the way of Jesus, the
teachings of Jesus, to practicethis as a community. And one
historian talks aboutconversion, meaning a shift in
(08:23):
behavior, belonging and beliefs,right, those three areas, right?
So it's a pretty transformative,holistic change in one's way of
life, now aligning with theinbreaking of the Messiah's
reign in the world, right, inthe midst of empire. And so
what's striking is that youstart with that, and certainly
within you know, first couplecenturies, you do already begin
(08:47):
to see legacies and logics ofempire creeping into these faith
communities. But in some ways,there's still something pretty
radical about what's happeningas that's going on, but when you
begin to get to, like, usually,a lot of people focus on, like,
the fourth century inparticular, you have
(09:07):
Constantine, who's an emperorwho basically the short of it
is, he ends a lot of theChristian persecution and offers
a lot of benefits and goodies tothe church. And so they begin to
feel relief because they nolonger being persecuted. This is
a huge deal, really significant.
(09:28):
And at the same time, they'reall of a sudden being advantaged
in the empire. And there's sothere's the church is actually
building huge basilicas for thefirst time, these huge buildings
for them, and you got leadersgetting tax breaks and don't
have to go to war and all thesethings and and actually, you
know, some scholars writtenabout it's really fascinating,
like the Roman Senate had suchan important role, and by the
(09:50):
time, like just few decades inlike the bishops begin to take
the role of the senates, andthey have an enormous role
within the. Empire, and a lot ofinfluence and voice with an
empire as well. And so what wesee is the church moving from
the margins to the center andthen from the bottom to the top
(10:11):
right. And as that shifts,Christianity begins to, over
time, really adapt its own waysof being in the world from
something that looks more likethe way of Jesus to something
that really aligns with the wayof the Emperor, and not
completely, and not all at onetime. And I think, you know,
sometimes some Christians haveoversimplified that that story
(10:33):
to make it like this justinstantaneous thing that
happens. It's actually really astory that takes really, many,
many centuries to unfold. And sosome of the book, the one
chapter in particular that Italk about the story of
Christendom, and it's a rise,it's rising, is trying to help
us get a glimpse right of thisunfolding story of the
Christendom. And really, when Isay Christendom, I'm talking
(10:56):
about Christianity anddomination and Empire getting in
bed with one another and havinga kind of course of Christianity
from the top down. Imagine thatit's our role to impose
Christianity on others. And sowe see that happen, especially
when you get to the medievalChristian experience, like after
800 ad. This is just a verydifferent worlds, and the kind
(11:17):
of Christianity that people arepracticing has very little to
look looks very little, at leastin the west, to what was, you
know, the previous ones ofChristianity for many centuries.
So that's just a quick glimpseof some of the ways that it gets
entrenched in structures,institutions, our theology, and
it really the marginalizing ofJesus to that creeds almost
(11:39):
replace, and I'm not anti creed,but they almost replace the
significance of the person ofJesus, the teachings of Jesus,
the birth life, teaching deathand resurrection of Jesus as a
story, as found in Matthew,Mark, Luke and John, and how our
lives ought to conform afterthat.
Joshua Johnson (11:54):
That's good.
Then, how did Anabaptist come inas really, opposition, really,
to Christendom, maybe antiChristendom. And what are some
of the traditions there thatthat help us root ourselves in a
discipleship to Jesus, a way ofJesus life.
Unknown (12:11):
One of the things that my book argues, which is not
always so explicitly said inmany Anabaptist work works,
though. I think it's alwaysimplied there, but that
anabaptism is an antiChristendom tradition, and I
think it's really important,like I actually think that's
more important to say than tosay it's a peace church
tradition. I think it's moreimportant to recognize it as an
(12:33):
antiChristian tradition. Thereit is born in the 1600s at the
same time, as you know, thereformation is taking place. So
we have Martin Luther andZwingli and eventually Calvin
and all these really importantfigures. And Christianity in the
West is shifting radically inthis moment. And you also have,
at the same time, poor peasantswho are rebelling, right because
(12:55):
of the economic revolts that aretaking place. So there's a lot
of unrest, and there's a lot ofchange happening. And in the
midst of all that, theAnabaptists are born, and I
would say, out of those twothings together, right, the
economic frustrations, and eventhose were frustrated and making
some theological claims andarguments around what the church
(13:17):
ought to be, and the way thatthe church was contributing to
the exploitation of poor people,but also the Reformation, this
idea that we ought to readScripture and wrestle with it
and and take it seriously. Andso these Anabaptists gathered,
and they're like, Yeah, let'sread the Bible for ourselves.
They actually now for the firsttime, you know, average people
are having more access toscriptures because the printing
(13:39):
press and all that kind ofstuff. And so they're reading,
and they're thinking like, allthis stuff from Luther is great
and Zwingli is great, but itdoesn't seem like they're taking
it all the way to their logicalconclusion. And so they actually
want to really, truly follow theway of Jesus in their lives. And
so they begin to practice thatreading Scripture together as a
(14:00):
community. So not there's notjust one person who interprets
it for everybody, but believingthat, yes, we need leaders. They
still had leaders, but they alsobelieved in communal readings
and allowing the Spirit tospeak, and that God might speak
through a poor, illiterate boy,not just the learned person,
right? And so it has to betested. Everything was tested
(14:20):
everything was tested incommunity, but it was this
communal, human hermeneutic.
There's definitely a deep, deepunderstanding that Christianity
is first and foremost. It'sabout discipleship to Jesus.
That is the heart ofChristianity. It's the way of
Jesus. It's embracing andembodying the life and teachings
of Jesus. And they took thatvery seriously in that
community, they're giving andreceiving and caring for one
(14:42):
another in mutual economicsharing. Some are actually
rejecting private propertyaltogether. Others are just
sharing and caring for those inneed. But it's a radical
contrast to the broader society,where exploitation was the norm.
There's actually taking care ofeach. Other's concrete needs.
And there is, like, this kind ofI call it, like a early
(15:02):
liberationist theology, but inecclesial form, it's not as much
expecting society to shift, butit's like we're going to embody
this thing on the ground as acommunity that actually cares
for one another. It's reallybeautiful. And of course, as
many people note, you know, acommitment to non violence that
flows out of their commitment tofollowing Jesus and taking him
(15:23):
seriously, that also emerges aswell. And so there's so many
other aspects of anabaptism, butI think that some of those
features really begin to make aquite a contrast, because
they're making a radical breakfrom Christendom. The whole idea
of anabaptism is like, at thattime, it was a terrible thing to
be called. Basically, it's likesaying you're a heretic and you
(15:44):
could be burned at the stake.
And that's exactly whathappened, right? So people are
literally killed by the 1000s,burned at the stake, drowned in
the waters, tortured, many ofthem. I mean, when I read the
first one, I think was MichaelSattler, and I read his, the
testimony of the trial of whatthey did to him, and I was like,
this is horrific, right? Andthis are Christians doing this
(16:07):
to other Christians because oftheir doctrinal differences. But
it wasn't just doctrinaldifferences. It was that the
Civic implications of themembodying the church and
breaking from the state actuallywas deeply subversive for
Western society, right? You'renot, you're no longer promising
to get baptized, which meansyou're not being signed up into
(16:30):
the Empire. That's also, it wasa civic thing, not just an
ecclesial practice at that time,you're not committing to serve
the military anymore. It's, it'sa radical break from
Christendom. And so I think whenwe begin to see that aspect,
then we see why it was treatedso subversively, and why making
Jesus their full allegiance isactually a threat to any empire,
(16:50):
even ones that want to callthemselves
Joshua Johnson (16:52):
Christian.
That's one thread of antiChristendom. And you know, you'd
see Anabaptists grown up, andthen then trace the doctrine of
discovery into then the blackchurch tradition, especially in
the in the US and what we havetoday. So at around that same
time later, we have thisdoctrine of discovery. What was
that doing? And how is thechurch complicit in what
(17:15):
happened because of that?
Unknown (17:19):
Yeah, so the way I kind of try to frame it in the book
is to show that we got to startback to continue the story of
Christendom again, right? AndWestern Christian and so it's
like, all right? So we get, youknow, medieval Christianity and
the merging and state and Empireand all that kind of stuff is
going on, and then you have,like, the Crusades. And in the
West, what's one thing that'sreally striking is that in the
(17:41):
West, they begin to forget thatthey are Gentiles, that
Christianity is not indigenousto the west. So it's almost like
I say to my students, theyimagine they have a copyright on
Jesus, on the Bible andChristianity, right? And if
anybody wants to becomeChristian, you come through us
and become like us. And soWestern Christianity begins to
(18:02):
look out on the rest of theworld, and they see the rest of
the world is heathen inthemselves as Christian, right?
Even other communities that hadChristianity way longer than
they did, it's heathen worlds,right? And so by the time you
get to the 1400s with thatmindset in place, you have
Portugal, who begins to enslaveAfrican people, and to do it
(18:26):
explicitly with a Christian kindof framework, they're writing
and thinking about ittheologically, why it's okay for
them to be engaging in thispractice of enslavement of other
people in Africa. And so I talka little about Zora and his
comments on that, but then afterthat begins, then you have a
papal bull, right? So theseformal church statements coming
(18:50):
from the Pope, but, but what?
What's interesting about thesechurch statements is it's both
doctrine and Legal Policy at thesame time. It's law and doctrine
simultaneously, right? And thesepapal bulls actually give formal
permission for Portugal to go tounChristian lands, supposedly
right, and to reduce people toperpetual slavery. That's
(19:14):
literal language, perpetualslavery. And so the Doctrine of
Discovery first starts withPortugal, and it's pretty much
doing the heavy lifting totheologize and legalize what
Portugal is doing. And thenSpain wants to get in on the
action. Then more papal bullsare written, and so they're
pretty much giving permission togo out to engage in plunder,
(19:37):
basically, if we're going tokeep it Frank, right, in the
name of Jesus, because thesepeople have not used the land
properly, have not fulfilled it,and it's unChristian. And so the
most Christian thing they can doin their imagination is to
conquer it and to make it trulyChristian, right, which is to
have Western society. With thisChristendom kind of practice in
(20:01):
place. And so what happens outof that is people go all over
the world. Throughout theAmericas right conquest,
throughout Africa, there'sconquest parts of Asia conquest,
and there's plundering of landand resources. There's
enslavement of other people, allhappening in the name of Jesus
Christ. And so it's a verydifferent kind of Christianity
(20:23):
than the one that we began withright in the first 300 years of
the church. And so that's wherethe black church is born out of
that context. It's born out ofthe suffering, again, at the
hands of white WesternChristians who are practicing
this diseased version ofChristianity. And they're on the
underside of that. Similar asAnabaptists are born on the
(20:43):
underside of WesternChristendom, the black church is
born on the underside in themidst of slavery and torture.
Literally, think about centuriesand centuries of torture in the
name of Jesus so that people canget free labor out of people for
their own greed, right? And sodo they completely just reject
Jesus? No, what's striking isthey encounter Jesus for
(21:07):
themselves on the underside, butthey encounter Jesus different
than how it's being preached tothem. So you read the slave
narratives and listen to thespirituals, and all of a sudden
we see a Jesus that's a friendin hard times, a Jesus that's
their that's their CO sufferer,that understands what they're
going through, and a Jesusthat's a liberator that's going
to bring them out right of theirsuffering and their slavery and
(21:29):
bring them towards freedom. Andso they have a different
understanding, rooted in theExodus story and Moses, rooted
in the God of justice that wesee in the prophets, and rooted
in the life and teachings ofJesus, the specificity of who
Jesus was, who he associatedwith, right the least, last,
lost and little ones, thatorients them to a faith that
looks very different than themainstream version that was
(21:51):
intentionally oppressing them.
Joshua Johnson (21:54):
One of the things he said early on is it
took centuries to really beenmeshed within Christendom, and
as you're looking at somethingthat happens around, you know,
reformation time, right beforethat, the Doctrine of Discovery,
what was happening, really,anabaptism, just, you know,
coming up in anti Christendom,we actually then continue, you
(22:17):
know, a few centuries later, alot of times, you know, when I'm
growing up in the whiteEvangelical Church and I'm, you
know, I'm singing songs toJesus, I'm loving, you know,
what he is saying and doing andthese stories and I'm coming. I
don't know the history of what'shappened, happened in the past.
(22:38):
I don't know how this has beenenmeshed, and what some of this
thinking has been, you know,Christendom, some of this
thinking is Jesus. And then howdo I detangle some of that stuff
growing up as I'm like,realizing we're there. So as we
come to this moment today, whatdo you see as still complicit
(23:00):
within mainstream Christianity,as you call it, what is still
complicit within empire, what'shappening
Unknown (23:06):
if we pull together both of those things, right, the
story of Christendom and thestory of the doctrine of
discovery and emergence of whitesupremacy and anti blackness and
slavery and conquest, and youthink about What happens at the
intersection of all of that,right? It begins to help us
understand, I think, almost theinevitable trajectory we were on
(23:28):
that brings us to where we aretoday, right? So a big
conversation point that we'rehaving even right now in our
society, is this leaning in andwrestling with the emergence or
the bolstering? Maybe, is thebetter, not the emergence, the
bolstering of white Christiannationalism, right? And so it's
a Christian faith that seesitself as first and foremost,
not an ecclesial, grassrootsproject in the public square,
(23:52):
but first and foremost, astatecraft, a state project, an
empire project, in which we'vegot to get back to the good old
days where we ran our country,where we had control and could
coercively dictate the moves andthe policies and the practices
that make Christianity normativein broader society. And so it's
(24:14):
not, how do we embody the way ofJesus in the public square, in
before a watching world, beforeour neighbors, right? And then
practice the way of Jesus andembody the way of Jesus, loving
our neighbors, doing justice,showing mercy, seeking peace and
reconciliation in the world.
Instead, it's we're gonna gainpower and dominate and impose
(24:35):
our our particular vision ofChristianity onto a very
pluralistic society that iswhere a lot of people don't even
identify as Christian, andcertainly even others that do
identify Christian, maybe notthat version of Christianity
either, right? And so it's, it'sthat inclination that, I call
it, the Christendom mindset, isdeeply embedded, certainly in
(24:57):
white Christian national. Interms of, we, we might have
dropped off some of the worst ofsome of the medieval practices,
right? We're not torturing, atleast not right now, torturing
folks in the level that happenedduring Christendom. But we
certainly, there's certainly thedesire to return back to a
Christendom society that'sthere. And as well, the Doctrine
(25:19):
of Discovery, you know, theworst of it, in terms of the
violence, at least in our owncountry, we supporting it
globally. In terms of otherplaces, we still support the
dispossession of lands, ofPalestinian people, and all of
that all around the world. Buthere, that work is already done,
but we live inside, happily,inside this vision, without
(25:39):
wrestling with the whitesupremacy and anti blackness
that deeply has shaped ourcultural practices, our
institution let me think aboutlike mass incarceration, the
disparities and funding forpublic education, the legacy we
live in the aftermath of so muchof the housing segregation and
the impact that zip codes thatwere red lines just a few
(26:02):
decades ago aredisproportionately poor today.
We can track that all across thecountry, right? Well, so we
could go on and on about thelegacies in the ways that often
it's Christians, AmericanChristians, that are actually
the most likely to have the thethe most harsh views towards
immigrants, to be the mostpunitive, to be the most war
(26:24):
mongering, to be pro deathpenalty, to have the least care
around trying to figure out howto reduce gun violence in our
communities, to support theharshest polity policies towards
the poor, in terms of access toMedicare and health care and all
of those things. And so we'redeeply, deeply informed by a
(26:48):
society that has this diseaseChristianity, where our values
and our concerns look nothinglike the person that we see
testify to by Matthew, Mark,Luke and John. And so, I mean,
those are some of thechallenges. Is that right now we
live the past is not past. It iswith us. It still lives on and
it haunts us. And until we breakthe cycle and find God's
(27:12):
deliverance, even from our ownChristian history, we're going
to perpetuate it in new ways.
Joshua Johnson (27:19):
It is interesting that it is the
cycles of violence over time andthroughout history that goes
from generation to generation,and it is really generational
trauma, like, if you're talkingabout people talking about
generational trauma, what it'sgoing to the next generation,
you set out a vision of maybeBreaking the cycle and saying
(27:41):
that maybe you call it antiblacktivism, can actually help
break this cycle and bring usinto a space where we can embody
the ways of Jesus. What doesthat look like for us today, and
why are you merging these twotraditions to help us come with
a vision for a better way, yeah.
Unknown (28:01):
So this idea of anabolactivism really just
emerges out of my own livedexperience. First and foremost,
it is I've been the beneficiaryof having a foot in both the
black church and Anabaptistcommunities, right? And that has
deeply, deeply been enriching tomy own faith, challenging to my
(28:21):
own faith, stretching, butcertainly turning my eyes and
fixing my eyes more and more onJesus and on the way of Jesus,
not just claiming Jesus, notjust accepting Jesus into my
heart, but actually embodyingthe way of Jesus. And hopefully
my prayer is that at times, whenI yield enough to what God is
doing in the world that Myneighbors might even get a
(28:43):
glimpse of the Jesus story in mylife, like that's my hope and my
prayer, right? And so these twocommunities are two traditions
that are born on the undersideof Christians, oppressing and
persecuting, right? And did notthrow it out, but instead
salvage Christianity on theunderside by leaning in even
(29:05):
more to the person of JesusChrist, to the particularities
of who he was and hiscommitments and his practices,
his ethics, his conviction, allof that, right? And so I think
for me, there's something reallybeautiful about how to find a
way out by listening andlearning to those that have most
severely understood theconsequences of what this all
(29:26):
has meant. And I think thesetraditions, by unveiling
Christendom and unveiling whitesupremacy as they do, begin to
give us insights imperfectly,but give us insights
nonetheless, for ways forwardthe radical discipleship to
Jesus, right? Is reallysignificant for us today. How do
we really lean into rooted inthe way of Jesus Christ, not
(29:49):
just claiming him, not justsinging songs that make us feel
good about him and that he's ourboyfriend, but really, truly
taking Jesus seriously in ourlives. What does it mean to. To
recognize that that same Jesusidentified with the oppressed,
with he lived as a first centuryPalestinian Jew under Roman
occupation. He understood whatit is to have his cousin
(30:12):
experience. We could call itpolice brutality, so to speak,
right or state execution, rightfor him to be grabbed at night
and to be given state execution.
I mean, he understood thevulnerability of life from the
underside, and he preached that,you know, his first sermon right
from, quoted mostly from Isaiah,the spirit of Lord is upon me
because he's anointing Me tobring good news to the poor,
(30:33):
release to the captives,recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free, toproclaim the year of the Lord's
favor. And so we have thisradical vision of Jesus, who
does exactly that as he goes outin his ministry. So we have
that. We also have from theblack church like this, what I
call the prophetic witness,right? And I think this is
really significant, is so where,like Anabaptists, have had a
(30:53):
really strong emphasis ondiscipleship in the church, some
Anabaptists, not all, but manyAnabaptists sometimes have not
always had a vision for whatdoes that mean to be the church
in the public square, in themidst of empire, in the midst of
evil happening, in the midst ofdeath, dealing forces all around
us. And the black church has atradition of what I call the
(31:16):
prophetic tradition, that is notforetelling what's happening,
but foretelling in the way ofthe prophets, right, in the way
of Isaiah and Jeremiah Micah andAmos right. Let justice roll
down like waters andrighteousness like an ever
flowing stream. That's thatprophetic tradition. And they,
they saw brilliantly theconnection between the prophets
and Jesus, who also, I mean,Jesus loves to more than
(31:39):
anything else. He quotes theprophets and embodies, and, at
times, evokes the prophets in somuch of his ministry that it
gets lost sometimes. So there'sthis prophetic challenge to if
we're going to embody the way ofJesus, it's actually an
embodying and evoking of theprophets as well, that in some
ways that's you could say,that's the Torah, certainly,
especially the Exodus motif. Andthe prophets are a significant
(32:02):
aspect of Jesus' understandingof what we should be drawing on
in Scripture, in the OldTestament, the Hebrew
Scriptures. And so I think thatthat also is really important
for us. So when we combine theradical discipleship with the
prophetic witness, with the antichristenum posture, with an anti
racist and liberativeunderstanding of the gospel of
Jesus Christ. And then you alsobegin to see the ethics of
(32:22):
peacemaking and liberation, andhow all of those things lead
towards a vision of seekingshalom, right? God Shalom in the
world. Great. I love Isaiah 65right? A beautiful vision, a
Shalom that's holistic, that'sgood for all of creation, where
I like to say, where everyonebelongs, everyone can flourish,
where everyone matters, right?
(32:45):
Like this big, whole, big visionfor all of creation that's
restored and all wrongs are setrights. And so, yeah, I think
that these two traditionstogether allow us, and I say
this not as in, like everyoneneeds to become part join the
black church or the Anabaptistcommunity or something like
that, but that we can belearning from these traditions
(33:06):
on the underside, and that thereactually are people who, like
myself and many others, whoactually have lived at that
intersection as well, that Ithink, really give us some great
insights into ways to livefaithfully in the midst of the
challenges we face today.
Joshua Johnson (33:19):
So give us some of these, these ways. So think
about, I'll think about mycommunity, East Kansas City. You
know, you think about redlining.
You have I'm on the east wheremost of you know the black
community resided in KansasCity. It's a poor community
still today. But I want to be inthis community. And I want to
(33:40):
see Shalom happen here. I wantto see the ways of Jesus
embodying the ways of Jesus alsothen seeing like, hey, what has
gone wrong? I want the prophetictradition, the prophetic
witness, to come forward letpeople know, hey, this is not
the way of Jesus is, you know,we have injustice. It's not
(34:00):
just. And let's bring ustogether. How do I, or you know,
us in a community here, see someof the shalom happen? And how do
we do this on a on a microscale, and then on a macro
scale? What do we do withinempire to call Empire out? But
first, let's start with thecommunity. How do we do that on
(34:21):
a micro scale?
Unknown (34:23):
Yeah, so, I mean, what we really need is actual
communities that are not justabout, you know? I mean, I think
it's challenging, like today,many of churches, many of our
churches, are about the ABCs,right, attendance buildings and
cash, right? And they're reallywell organized machines that
have their own survival in mind,and sometimes getting lost,
(34:44):
drifting from our mission of whywe exist in the first place.
Don't know how to be faithcommunities. Don't know how to
be discipling communities. Don'tknow how to be worshiping
communities, and don't know howto be communities that are
engaging our communityfaithfully, right bearing
witness to God's reigning. Theworld, and so I think some of it
is like actually returning tothe very, very most basic,
(35:05):
simple practices of gatheringtogether, discipling, worshiping
and forming, literally beingformed to be a people that go
out and that engage and have theconvictions and the ways of
Jesus kind of embedded in us aswe go out into our
neighborhoods. And so all wegot, I mean, I feel like some
(35:25):
ways, and sometimes maybe like,after a while, you're like, it
seems so simple, I feel likealmost silly saying me something
like, but like we do as Jesusdid, right? We go out, we we
emphasize, we look for thosethat are hurting, those that are
vulnerable, those who've beenpushed to the margins, edges and
cracks of society. And we joinand we share in suffering with
(35:47):
them, and and we make theirpains our pains, and their
struggles are our struggles. Andwe do what we would do we as we
love others, as we loveourselves, we take care of our
own bodies, we take care of ourown concerns. We're going to do
the same thing, and so we'regoing to speak up. We're going
to show we're going to show upat the town hall meetings or at
the school board, or we're goingto, you know, organize, for me,
(36:08):
one of the big things, that's myprevious book. But like
organizing, I think communityorganize is one of the great
ways that we can, on thegrounds, at the grassroots local
level, begin to participate insomething without needing to
feel like we've got to havecontrol over the empire, but
actually still, nonethelessrecognize like there are power
dynamics and policies that needto be changed, and that while we
(36:30):
can't guarantee anything, we'regoing to work for the good of
our neighbors, especially thoselittle, most vulnerable and
poor, right? And so I think,like it's that coming alongside,
joining, not taking over,especially those that you know
maybe are more advantaged insociety, pulling back the
inclination to try to take overand run everything, but first,
learn to be not the teachers,but students, to come alongside,
(36:52):
to join, to be in solidarity, tolink arms, right and struggle. I
think that there's so much thatcan happen, not only for the
liberation of others, but alsofor yourself, because I think
sometimes we don't, you talkabout trauma, right? We all have
this stuff in our bodies thatwe've got to unlearn and be
transformed from and deliveredfrom, that we don't even
(37:13):
sometimes recognize in us. Andit's going to take time of
immersing and coming alongsidefor us to kind of find that
healing, even in our own bodiesin ways that we actually need.
And so that would be my vision,is that local church that's
actually mobilized and engagedand responsive to the needs of
their neighbors, that know thestories of their neighbors, they
know their names, and they knowtheir stories, and they're moved
(37:34):
by them, and they can't but dootherwise, because they love
them.
Joshua Johnson (37:38):
Can you give me a vision for somebody that is in
mainstream Christianity thatfeels like when we have power
and control and trying to makethings the way that you know,
Christendom has made things. Iam comfortable. Things are easy
for me, and I feel like, youknow, we have peace, but not
(38:01):
shalom, right? We have a peacetype of thing, but not true.
Shalom. True, true, deep peace.
So how? How can we help peopleknow that the way of Jesus is
his uncomfortable, it'ssuffering, it's hard. It's for
the margins. It's for theneglected people, the least and
last and the lost. But it's alsogoing to be really good for
(38:21):
people that like are reveling intheir comfort right now.
Unknown (38:28):
Yeah, so one of the things that my church so I'm at
a church that is not onlymultiracial, but
socioeconomically diverse aswell, and I've been there since
what, like 2018 and we developedsome core practices to kind of
orient us, and one of them iswhat we call mutual healing and
liberation, right? And thereason why we said we wanted to
(38:51):
frame that is because it's veryeasy for some folks who are
economically advantaged, havemore education, right? All this
access and all that stuff tofeel like, Oh, I'm gonna serve
and help everyone else out,right? And, you know? And so I
started name I was like this, wegotta, we gotta weed out some of
(39:12):
the paternalism in thiscommunity, right? There's some
paternalism that we've got tokind of reckon with. We got to
name it for what's happening andalso think about and so what I
wanted people to begin to see islike, there's something that we
all need in this. All of us needsomething, and first and fore,
like we've got to see that wealso have lack just because
(39:34):
you're college educated, you gotyour big house and a nice job,
or whatever, you may be lackingmore than so. So how do we begin
to realize all of us need to beon a journey of healing and
liberation. We all need to beliberated from something and
healed from something andactually like the results of
like, let's just say, like,slavery, for example. Like, what
(39:56):
does it do to a community, tothe people in a community?
Reality that for centuries,accommodate slavery. How does
that deteriorate one's humanity?
Right? When anti blacknessbecomes so normative that when
you see black suffering, you'reunmoved, when we hear about
children in Gaza starving, andwe're unmoved, and we got some
(40:19):
biblical verse that we want tocode at people, right? Like
there's, this is good foreverybody. This is healing for
everybody. This istransformation for everybody, so
that all of us starting fromdifferent starting points, but
all moving closer to a healedImago day, right? The image of
God as desired fully who Goddesigned us and created us to
(40:41):
be. That's what we want to be insearch of. That's what we want
to find. And it won't happenoutside of community, but also a
community where truereconciliation, which is
flipping on its head, the socialexpectations right We're the
first to last, and last thefirst, and allows us to truly
(41:02):
rest in who God has created usto be. And so, yeah, I think
there's a journey here that Ithink all of us need. And I do
think that the combination ofanabaptism and Black Theology
have a vision together that can,I think, really invite people
into something really powerfulagain, without necessarily
joining those specifictraditions, but learning from
(41:23):
those traditions, I think arereally powerful for us.
Joshua Johnson (41:27):
Today, I'm going to read you something you you
wrote in your book. It says, Oneof the challenges for the 21st
Century black churches, whetherit's historic orientation of
liberation of black people fromracist systems, will expand to
reflect the depth and width ofthe gospel of Jesus Christ, and
it's good news for all oppressedpeople. This includes
recognizing the deliberativesignificance of Jesus's life for
(41:49):
everyone recognizes the inherentdignity of each person and
practicing the rule of thekingdom where the last are first
and the first are last. God'sliberation is not limited to
race and poverty. It extends togender, sexuality, abilities and
anytime people are stigmatized,socially rejected or
discriminated against, how dopeople coming from an oppressed
(42:12):
place actually get a vision forother oppressed people and
saying, Hey, my suffering hasbeen long, and I want freedom.
And how do we get a vision forall people?
Unknown (42:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the beauty of what Jesus
invites us into. Is Jesusdoesn't only get drawn to those
who are poor, but also to theSamaritans, and not only the
Samaritans, but also women whoare being ostracized right under
patriarchy. And not only that, Imean, He even talks to Matthew
about the eunuchs, right? He'sgot attention to this really
(42:48):
small group of folks, right? Andso what we see is this expansive
vision. And it's not by accidentthat Jesus one of the when he
goes into the temple and clasheswith the temple elites. One of
the passages that is echoed isIsaiah 56 which is the inclusion
of foreigners and eunuchs,right? It's this Jesus first
(43:11):
sermon in Luke four. They'reconcerned about their own
liberation, right? And they'reloving him for that, for Jesus
of walking Isaiah 58 and 61 butwhen he starts talking about the
foreigners, and they're includedin this thing, then they're like
this, we're gonna throw thisdude off the cliff, right? And
so it's this expandingliberation, this expanding
(43:31):
deliverance for all people thatI think Jesus, if we follow Him
and immerse ourselves in thestory, our hearts begin to
widen. And I do think we oughtto then begin. Everyone has
struggles, and so do we chooseto lean into and see our shared
humanity as we experience thesethings and what connects us as
(43:52):
human beings, rather than theother, in group, out group, kind
of mindset that we can fallinto? Right? So that's a
challenge. So we need to hearthe stories of others and hold
them dearly. For me, that'sdeeply shaped me. I mean, I grew
up in a my church was way morelike patriarchal than I am and
all that stuff. But as I beganto hear women's stories, right,
(44:17):
Jesus was working on me and theHoly Spirit was working on me to
expand my empathy and myunderstanding and even my own
complicity in harm that I'vedone to others, right? And so
that's the work of followingJesus in a way that isn't only
about my own deliverance, butseeing its unit, the universal
salvation of God breaking out tothe nations, right? And I think
(44:40):
that that's really an importantpart. It's hard, it's hard work,
and we'll never have like, look,none of us are God. We don't
take this posture from abovethat we are all knowing of all
the different situations goingon in the world. But as we meet
and encounter other people'spains and struggles, that's our
invitation to follow Jesus into.
To follow the way of Jesus intothese conflicts and concerns and
(45:01):
struggles that people carry.
Joshua Johnson (45:06):
That's so good.
And you know, for so many peoplein the church, we talk about
discipleship, and we talk aboutdiscipleship to Jesus, and
sometimes we we get off and wefigure out we're actually
discipling to something otherthan the the ways of Jesus and
the teaching of Jesus, but we'rediscipling to maybe, you know,
(45:26):
Christendom, or culturalChristianity, and not the ways
of Jesus. What are some someways that we can make sure that
we are discipled towards theways of Jesus, that we could
start to embody Jesus in theworld and not go off into
discipling, into Christendomagain,
Unknown (45:48):
one of these things where it's like, it's so simple,
right? But we have to actuallysay it, I guess. But like, but
first of all, we have to immerseourselves in the story of Jesus,
right? Like, that's MatthewMark. Like, there's a beautiful
Dietrich Bonhoeffer quotes fromwhen he's in prison. And I think
I already almost echoed him alittle bit earlier, but, but he
(46:10):
talks about, like, must immerseourselves slowly, again and
again in the Life teachings,death and resurrection of Jesus
Christ, something like that,right? He says this little go
off quote, I think it's just sobeautiful, right? Because here
he is. He's dealing with samesituation, right? Like he's seen
how terrible Christianity hasgone in Germany. And so it's a
(46:33):
facade of the real thing, right,a shadow of of what it ought to
be. And so it's like we've gotto actually spend some time with
Jesus. And so there's both inthe written form, and then in
our lives, yielding to to Jesusin our lives to embody and to
encounter and to to know. And soit's the two together, right?
(46:55):
And then having practices in ourcommunities that actually help
us, we'll say, socialize us intothe way of Jesus, right? I love
the early church. I mean, justthe vision of like, they had,
like intensive catechismprocesses that could last, like
multiple years to socialize youinto the way Jesus Christ,
(47:17):
right? And that includes like, Ilove Cyprian. He's like, he
complains about how initially,like, it's hard. He's like, had
to give up his like, niceclothes and the nice food and
all this stuff. And he's servingthe poor. Like, that's a part of
their catechism process, right?
They're out there serving folks.
And so there's a re socializingthat happens that actually
(47:38):
preceded the baptism. So whatare we doing? What kind of
experiential practices, whatkind of serving and what kind of
way of life are we helpinginitiate people into that gives
them some direction on somepractical ways of living and
being right? Have been leadingthis program at Messiah called
thriving together congregationsfor racial justice. And, you
(48:01):
know, among all the differentthings we do, we take them on,
like, a week long civil rightstrip, right? It's this immersive
experience, right, that deeplyshapes these folks. Do not come
back the same, right? Becauseit's experiential. It's not just
reading books that is always thething that more than anything
else that we do, no matter, webring in speakers, amazing
speakers from all over thecountry and all it's the
(48:24):
experience that once they havethat it's like there's no going
back, right? And so and they'remeeting people for the first
time, people who were involvedin the movements, who are still
alive, hearing their testimoniesand experience and that they're
going to carry that with themfor a long time. So what I think
in the church, we need to alsoinitiate and socialize people
(48:45):
into the way of Jesus Christ,creatively, thoughtfully and
contextually for our spaces thatwe're in. Drew if
Joshua Johnson (48:51):
you could talk to your readers of making it
plain, what hope do you have forthis book and for the readers of
making it plain?
Unknown (48:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's multiple hopes I have. I
mean, I think one is simply thatI hope that we understand how we
got to where we are today. Ithink there's a lot of folks who
are frustrated with the church,frustrated with Christian
nationalism, that that's a bigtopic right now. A lot of people
try to understand how you getfrom the life and teachings of
(49:21):
Jesus to Christian nationalism,right? It's a there's a lot of
cognitive dissonance, andthere's a lot of people walking
away from Christianity becauseof the way that Jesus is His
name is vandalized in the publicsquare. And so I want us to
understand that there's ahistory, a much longer history,
a lot of people want toemphasize, which is, right? All
the history around like the 80sand the Moral Majority movement,
(49:44):
all of that stuff is importanthistory to understand our
current political situation. Butthere's a much older story that
I think is even more significantthat made even the Moral
Majority movements probablyinevitable, right at some point.
And so I want us to understand.
In Christendom, and I want us tounderstand the doctrine of
discovery and the things thatare taken for granted, and also
then help Christians understandthere have always been Christian
(50:08):
communities on the undersidethat are reinterpreting and
salvaging the way of JesusChrist on the ground, and that
in my personal experience, Iwant to offer a gift of the two
that have really deeply shapedme right, which is anabaptism in
the black church, and thatsomehow, through learning with
the broader church, andparticularly these communities
(50:31):
that have followed Jesus fromthe underside, we might also
have a more faithful witness, amore radical discipleship, A
more prophetic witness, a morebeautiful whole healing
community that we're a part of,and that we might actually
participate in seeking theshalom of our communities and
out of our nation and so and ofthe worlds, right, that we would
(50:52):
be participating what God isdoing in the world. And so,
yeah, I think that that it feelsso timely right now in response
to so much of what's going on inthe church, that we need to kind
of recalibrate back to Jesus andrediscover a Jesus shaped way of
life.
Joshua Johnson (51:09):
Yes, yes. Couple quick questions I have for you
at the end here. One, if you goback to your 21 year old self,
what advice would you give my
Unknown (51:16):
21 year old self? Wow, I don't even know what that's a
really fascinating question tothink about. What advice I would
give, probably just to I mean,things I did, but I do think,
you know, as I feel like I'mgetting old, I'm not old today,
maybe sometimes I do rememberwhen I was in my 20s, it was a
(51:40):
young woman I was talking to fora little bit. She was interested
in me. We never actually becamea thing but, but she did tease
me once to say I had a spirit ofan 80 year old. So, so maybe, so
maybe there's some of thatcoming out of me still, even
though I'm only 43 but I dothink the relationships and
leaning into relationships, justtreasuring time with people is
(52:02):
really significant. Beingpresent is something that I
would say, I think I would say,probably for me, I think I
probably would have told myselfto trust my gut a little bit
more, as it related to when mybody was telling me that certain
spaces that something was alittle off. In some Christian
(52:25):
spaces, trust my body a littlesooner, like your body, the
alarms are going off for areason. Look into that, lean
into that question, what wasgoing on? I think I was, to some
degree, but I also was probablyoverly patient with some things
that I probably could havespared myself from, but also
(52:45):
just love Jesus and to keepfollowing him, and that he's
going to take me on a wildjourney that I will not
anticipate. Where it's going,but it's going to be really
good.
Joshua Johnson (52:54):
So yes, that's good. Anything you've been
reading or watching lately, youcould recommend one
Unknown (52:59):
of my former professors and briefly colleague who at
Messiah, he wrote a book calledGod's apocalyptic insurrection.
I think, I think I'm getting thetitle right. I should know the
title of the meeting, but reallybeautiful accounting of the
gospel and for our times. So ifyou're looking for a holistic
(53:20):
theology of salvation inparticular, tied into God's in
breaking kingdom. It's reallybeautiful and timely again for
kind of stuff that we're goingon, that's going on right now
and almost been working throughthe the lamb of the free a great
book on atonement theology aswell. Yeah, so many, I don't
know, but, yeah, those are someof the good books I've been
(53:44):
reading. Great.
Joshua Johnson (53:45):
Well, making it plain, is available anywhere
books are sold? Drew is thereanywhere you'd like to point
people specifically to get thebook? And is there any way
anywhere else you'd like topoint people to?
Unknown (53:56):
Yeah, no, you can get them anywhere books are sold. I
mean, you can order them at yourown bookstore. If you go to the
Herald press website, you canorder them through there as
well. And so, yeah, anywhere youwant to buy your books is
Joshua Johnson (54:09):
great, great.
Any, any way they could connectwith you, connect with any, any
other thing that you're doing.
Unknown (54:16):
Yeah, you could keep track of me. So I do. I mean, I
don't really use it that muchbut, but I do have a website
where you can contact me. SoDrew gi heart.com, you can.
There's a contact thing there.
So you ever have questions, wantto reach out, want to invite me
to your community. I'm alwaysglad to do things like that. I
am always speaking and travelingquite a bit, so I'll be all over
(54:37):
the place, all over the countrythis fall and spring, you can
find me online. Have pretty muchalmost all my social media
accounts are at d r u H, A R T,Drew heart, d r u H, A R T. And
so you can keep track of methere, and you can find me. In
Harrisburg. I live inHarrisburg. Pa attend Harrisburg
(55:01):
First Church of the Brethren,and so if you ever in the area,
come check us out. We're a coollittle community in Allison Hill
neighborhood of Harrisburg.
Joshua Johnson (55:11):
All right. Well, DREW Thank you for bringing us
into the history of Christendom,Christianity, the Doctrine of
Discovery, and where that hasled us to today, and how Anna
baptism and the black church cancome give us a great vision of
how to deeply follow Jesus andradical discipleship be a
prophetic witness to tell truthto power and say, this is the
(55:35):
way of Jesus, and let's actuallyfollow Him and be for the the
oppressed, the marginalized,just like Jesus was, and so we
could actually see mutualflourishing for everyone. So
Drew. Thank you. This is afantastic conversation.
Unknown (55:49):
Thank you for having me.
You
We're deeply, deeply informed by a society that has
(00:03):
this disease Christianity, whereour values and our concerns look
nothing like the person that wesee testify to by Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John and so, I mean,those are some of the
challenges. Is that right now welive the past is not past. It is
with us. It still lives on andit hogs us, and until we break
(00:24):
the cycle and find God'sdeliverance, even from our own
Christian history, we're goingto perpetuate it in new ways.
You
Joshua Johnson (00:40):
foreign Hello and welcome to the shifting
culture podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. Today,we're going to step back and ask
some hard, but necessaryquestions. How did Christianity
(01:00):
once a radical movement ofordinary people following A
crucified Messiah becomes sodeeply entangled with Empire and
power, what does it mean thatthe church has carried forward
the legacies of conquest,slavery and white supremacy? And
how do we disentangle our faithfrom those histories so that it
looks like Jesus again? That'swhere today's guest, theologian
(01:21):
and activist drew Hart helps us.
He walks us through the longstory of Christendom, the
Doctrine of Discovery, and theways those forces still shape
our society, from massincarceration to Christian
nationalism. But thisconversation isn't just about
naming what's broken. It's aboutseeing what's possible. Drew
offers a vision he callsanabolactivism, a bringing
together of the Anabaptistcommitment to radical
(01:44):
discipleship, to Jesus and theblack Church's prophetic
witness. It's a way of followingJesus that's rooted in
solidarity with the oppressedcommunities of mutual care and
the pursuit of God's Shalom hereand now. So if you're ready to
reckon with where we've been,wrestle with where we are and
imagine what faithfuldiscipleship could look like
(02:05):
today, you're in the rightplace. So join us. Here is my
conversation with Drew Hart.
DREW Welcome to shiftingculture. Thank you so much for
joining me. Really excited tohave you on
Unknown (02:19):
Thank you, Joshua. I'm glad to be in conversation with
Joshua Johnson (02:21):
you. Yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit of
like your your background ofbeing in the lineage of
preachers for generations. Howdid that inform some of your
life? And then what did you say?
I'm gonna take something of myown moving forward as well.
Unknown (02:40):
It was just a reality when I was young. You know, you
just know that your dad's apastor and your grandfather. My
grandfather was a churchplanter. Started, I think,
around like 10 churches on theEast Coast, mostly in like the
Philly, you know, area, but ashigh as Boston and as South as
Baltimore. So I always knew thatmy last name in certain spaces
(03:03):
carried a little weight, andtheir expectations placed upon
Me. Because of that, it also canbe restricting a little bit in
terms of people's, you know,those expectations of what that
means for how you're going tolive your life and the choices
you're going to make. And so Ifelt all of that, but was often
very proud to have the lineageof pastors and preachers that go
(03:23):
back multiple generations withinmy family. At the same time I
did go off, I intentionallychose to go to college two hours
away outside of the Phillybubble, so that nobody would
know my name and I could just beme and kind of discover who I
am, what I believed for myself.
And I do think, you know,there's a lot that I have
received and inherited, and I'vehad to also process things that
(03:46):
have been different. And so Igrew up in a context where our
church often call it blackevangelicalism as the color way
of framing it, not a term thatwe would have used then, but I
say that to say it was a kind ofevangelicalism, but not the same
as what I found to be mostcommon in many mainstream white
(04:08):
evangelical spaces. But therewas also some shared theological
doctrines, beliefs and practicesthat were shared with a
difference, certainly in thecommunity that I was raised, I
inherited something that I mean,many things that I hold on to
very dearly. One, just beingthat Jesus is at the center of
our faith, right? How importantthat was in my community, Jesus
(04:30):
felt like a family member interms of how often he was spoken
of, engaged, interacted with inthe life of our community, and
was central and really thefoundation of our faith. And
that really has never left me,and I'm just so grateful for
that inheritance, the love forscripture, reading scripture and
thinking with scripture,believing that it should norm
(04:52):
our lives. That is all somethingthat has deeply shaped faith as
well. And so yeah, there's allthese things. Things that have
carried on a certain I even talkabout, sometimes about a certain
kind of like black pietism,rights of faith, that has shaped
just me seeking to encounterGod, not just head knowledge,
but to experience God in my ownlife, and seeking after that,
(05:14):
the kind of transformation,inner transformation that I
expect to happen as well. Soyeah, I'm so grateful for all
that, as I also have stepped outinto other traditions. And
wouldn't call myself a blackevangelical today, though I'm
deep friends with many whoactually still live in that
stream, but I would, yeah,definitely have kind of shifted
in some of my beliefs andpractices that are both informed
(05:36):
by some of those previousthings, but also informed by
other streams of Christianity aswell.
Joshua Johnson (05:44):
And I think as we look at your book, making it
plain, as you trace some of thehistory of Christendom at
Western Christianity, you tracehow the church has been
complicit in a lot of harm,injustice that has happened, but
also that there is some thebeautiful essentials of who
Jesus is and how people haveactually said, let's follow,
(06:04):
follow the way of Jesus and notempire. So we're doing that sort
of work as a, you know, macroscale, as some of you know, we
all should do some of that workat a micro scale as well. What
are the things that have beenput upon us, the expectations
that we have growing up, andthen where is Jesus in the midst
of it, and what does our faithreally look like? So can you
(06:27):
help us? Then go back to themacro level, and I want to trace
a little bit of Christianity,and I think that's going to help
us get into your core thesis ofthe book of merging some of this
anabaptism And the black churchtradition together. So let's
start with the story ofChristendom. How did the church
(06:48):
move from a place of, you know,outsider kingdom, Jesus
mentality, into an enmeshing ofempire and go that direction?
Unknown (06:59):
Yeah, yeah. And so this will be the Spark Notes version.
And even I feel like my book isstill even more Spark Notes than
what I could offer, right?
Because it's such a complicatedhistory. But for our listeners,
I think what's helpful for us tounderstand is, yeah, that I mean
early Christians, they had nopolitical power. They didn't
(07:20):
have the levers of thegovernment working in their
favor, rights, and they didexperience periodic persecution.
Sometimes we overstate exactlywhat that meant, as if it was
just non stop and just beingslaughtered all the time. That's
not true, but there is GeneralHostility that many of them are
experiencing, and then there arethe seasons of intensified,
(07:40):
usually local and regionalpersecutions that are taking
place, though some of the moresevere ones and broader Imperial
ones happen as the centuries goAnd so Christians, as some have
said, like it took convictionand courage to be Christian.
You're not just signing up forthis willy nilly. There's no
cultural Christianity where youjust kind of take it nominally.
(08:02):
It's got to mean somethingsignificant for you. And so you
have these communities that areforming on the grounds that are
caring for those that arevulnerable and stigmatized in
society, and they're seeking tofollow the way of Jesus, the
teachings of Jesus, to practicethis as a community. And one
historian talks aboutconversion, meaning a shift in
(08:23):
behavior, belonging and beliefs,right, those three areas, right?
So it's a pretty transformative,holistic change in one's way of
life, now aligning with theinbreaking of the Messiah's
reign in the world, right, inthe midst of empire. And so
what's striking is that youstart with that, and certainly
within you know, first couplecenturies, you do already begin
(08:47):
to see legacies and logics ofempire creeping into these faith
communities. But in some ways,there's still something pretty
radical about what's happeningas that's going on, but when you
begin to get to, like, usually,a lot of people focus on, like,
the fourth century inparticular, you have
(09:07):
Constantine, who's an emperorwho basically the short of it
is, he ends a lot of theChristian persecution and offers
a lot of benefits and goodies tothe church. And so they begin to
feel relief because they nolonger being persecuted. This is
a huge deal, really significant.
(09:28):
And at the same time, they'reall of a sudden being advantaged
in the empire. And there's sothere's the church is actually
building huge basilicas for thefirst time, these huge buildings
for them, and you got leadersgetting tax breaks and don't
have to go to war and all thesethings and and actually, you
know, some scholars writtenabout it's really fascinating,
like the Roman Senate had suchan important role, and by the
(09:50):
time, like just few decades inlike the bishops begin to take
the role of the senates, andthey have an enormous role
within the. Empire, and a lot ofinfluence and voice with an
empire as well. And so what wesee is the church moving from
the margins to the center andthen from the bottom to the top
(10:11):
right. And as that shifts,Christianity begins to, over
time, really adapt its own waysof being in the world from
something that looks more likethe way of Jesus to something
that really aligns with the wayof the Emperor, and not
completely, and not all at onetime. And I think, you know,
sometimes some Christians haveoversimplified that that story
(10:33):
to make it like this justinstantaneous thing that
happens. It's actually really astory that takes really, many,
many centuries to unfold. And sosome of the book, the one
chapter in particular that Italk about the story of
Christendom, and it's a rise,it's rising, is trying to help
us get a glimpse right of thisunfolding story of the
Christendom. And really, when Isay Christendom, I'm talking
(10:56):
about Christianity anddomination and Empire getting in
bed with one another and havinga kind of course of Christianity
from the top down. Imagine thatit's our role to impose
Christianity on others. And sowe see that happen, especially
when you get to the medievalChristian experience, like after
800 ad. This is just a verydifferent worlds, and the kind
(11:17):
of Christianity that people arepracticing has very little to
look looks very little, at leastin the west, to what was, you
know, the previous ones ofChristianity for many centuries.
So that's just a quick glimpseof some of the ways that it gets
entrenched in structures,institutions, our theology, and
it really the marginalizing ofJesus to that creeds almost
(11:39):
replace, and I'm not anti creed,but they almost replace the
significance of the person ofJesus, the teachings of Jesus,
the birth life, teaching deathand resurrection of Jesus as a
story, as found in Matthew,Mark, Luke and John, and how our
lives ought to conform afterthat.
Joshua Johnson (11:54):
That's good.
Then, how did Anabaptist come inas really, opposition, really,
to Christendom, maybe antiChristendom. And what are some
of the traditions there thatthat help us root ourselves in a
discipleship to Jesus, a way ofJesus life.
Unknown (12:11):
One of the things that my book argues, which is not
always so explicitly said inmany Anabaptist work works,
though. I think it's alwaysimplied there, but that
anabaptism is an antiChristendom tradition, and I
think it's really important,like I actually think that's
more important to say than tosay it's a peace church
tradition. I think it's moreimportant to recognize it as an
(12:33):
antiChristian tradition. Thereit is born in the 1600s at the
same time, as you know, thereformation is taking place. So
we have Martin Luther andZwingli and eventually Calvin
and all these really importantfigures. And Christianity in the
West is shifting radically inthis moment. And you also have,
at the same time, poor peasantswho are rebelling, right because
(12:55):
of the economic revolts that aretaking place. So there's a lot
of unrest, and there's a lot ofchange happening. And in the
midst of all that, theAnabaptists are born, and I
would say, out of those twothings together, right, the
economic frustrations, and eventhose were frustrated and making
some theological claims andarguments around what the church
(13:17):
ought to be, and the way thatthe church was contributing to
the exploitation of poor people,but also the Reformation, this
idea that we ought to readScripture and wrestle with it
and and take it seriously. Andso these Anabaptists gathered,
and they're like, Yeah, let'sread the Bible for ourselves.
They actually now for the firsttime, you know, average people
are having more access toscriptures because the printing
(13:39):
press and all that kind ofstuff. And so they're reading,
and they're thinking like, allthis stuff from Luther is great
and Zwingli is great, but itdoesn't seem like they're taking
it all the way to their logicalconclusion. And so they actually
want to really, truly follow theway of Jesus in their lives. And
so they begin to practice thatreading Scripture together as a
(14:00):
community. So not there's notjust one person who interprets
it for everybody, but believingthat, yes, we need leaders. They
still had leaders, but they alsobelieved in communal readings
and allowing the Spirit tospeak, and that God might speak
through a poor, illiterate boy,not just the learned person,
right? And so it has to betested. Everything was tested
(14:20):
everything was tested incommunity, but it was this
communal, human hermeneutic.
There's definitely a deep, deepunderstanding that Christianity
is first and foremost. It'sabout discipleship to Jesus.
That is the heart ofChristianity. It's the way of
Jesus. It's embracing andembodying the life and teachings
of Jesus. And they took thatvery seriously in that
community, they're giving andreceiving and caring for one
(14:42):
another in mutual economicsharing. Some are actually
rejecting private propertyaltogether. Others are just
sharing and caring for those inneed. But it's a radical
contrast to the broader society,where exploitation was the norm.
There's actually taking care ofeach. Other's concrete needs.
And there is, like, this kind ofI call it, like a early
(15:02):
liberationist theology, but inecclesial form, it's not as much
expecting society to shift, butit's like we're going to embody
this thing on the ground as acommunity that actually cares
for one another. It's reallybeautiful. And of course, as
many people note, you know, acommitment to non violence that
flows out of their commitment tofollowing Jesus and taking him
(15:23):
seriously, that also emerges aswell. And so there's so many
other aspects of anabaptism, butI think that some of those
features really begin to make aquite a contrast, because
they're making a radical breakfrom Christendom. The whole idea
of anabaptism is like, at thattime, it was a terrible thing to
be called. Basically, it's likesaying you're a heretic and you
(15:44):
could be burned at the stake.
And that's exactly whathappened, right? So people are
literally killed by the 1000s,burned at the stake, drowned in
the waters, tortured, many ofthem. I mean, when I read the
first one, I think was MichaelSattler, and I read his, the
testimony of the trial of whatthey did to him, and I was like,
this is horrific, right? Andthis are Christians doing this
(16:07):
to other Christians because oftheir doctrinal differences. But
it wasn't just doctrinaldifferences. It was that the
Civic implications of themembodying the church and
breaking from the state actuallywas deeply subversive for
Western society, right? You'renot, you're no longer promising
to get baptized, which meansyou're not being signed up into
(16:30):
the Empire. That's also, it wasa civic thing, not just an
ecclesial practice at that time,you're not committing to serve
the military anymore. It's, it'sa radical break from
Christendom. And so I think whenwe begin to see that aspect,
then we see why it was treatedso subversively, and why making
Jesus their full allegiance isactually a threat to any empire,
(16:50):
even ones that want to callthemselves
Joshua Johnson (16:52):
Christian.
That's one thread of antiChristendom. And you know, you'd
see Anabaptists grown up, andthen then trace the doctrine of
discovery into then the blackchurch tradition, especially in
the in the US and what we havetoday. So at around that same
time later, we have thisdoctrine of discovery. What was
that doing? And how is thechurch complicit in what
(17:15):
happened because of that?
Unknown (17:19):
Yeah, so the way I kind of try to frame it in the book
is to show that we got to startback to continue the story of
Christendom again, right? AndWestern Christian and so it's
like, all right? So we get, youknow, medieval Christianity and
the merging and state and Empireand all that kind of stuff is
going on, and then you have,like, the Crusades. And in the
West, what's one thing that'sreally striking is that in the
(17:41):
West, they begin to forget thatthey are Gentiles, that
Christianity is not indigenousto the west. So it's almost like
I say to my students, theyimagine they have a copyright on
Jesus, on the Bible andChristianity, right? And if
anybody wants to becomeChristian, you come through us
and become like us. And soWestern Christianity begins to
(18:02):
look out on the rest of theworld, and they see the rest of
the world is heathen inthemselves as Christian, right?
Even other communities that hadChristianity way longer than
they did, it's heathen worlds,right? And so by the time you
get to the 1400s with thatmindset in place, you have
Portugal, who begins to enslaveAfrican people, and to do it
(18:26):
explicitly with a Christian kindof framework, they're writing
and thinking about ittheologically, why it's okay for
them to be engaging in thispractice of enslavement of other
people in Africa. And so I talka little about Zora and his
comments on that, but then afterthat begins, then you have a
papal bull, right? So theseformal church statements coming
(18:50):
from the Pope, but, but what?
What's interesting about thesechurch statements is it's both
doctrine and Legal Policy at thesame time. It's law and doctrine
simultaneously, right? And thesepapal bulls actually give formal
permission for Portugal to go tounChristian lands, supposedly
right, and to reduce people toperpetual slavery. That's
(19:14):
literal language, perpetualslavery. And so the Doctrine of
Discovery first starts withPortugal, and it's pretty much
doing the heavy lifting totheologize and legalize what
Portugal is doing. And thenSpain wants to get in on the
action. Then more papal bullsare written, and so they're
pretty much giving permission togo out to engage in plunder,
(19:37):
basically, if we're going tokeep it Frank, right, in the
name of Jesus, because thesepeople have not used the land
properly, have not fulfilled it,and it's unChristian. And so the
most Christian thing they can doin their imagination is to
conquer it and to make it trulyChristian, right, which is to
have Western society. With thisChristendom kind of practice in
(20:01):
place. And so what happens outof that is people go all over
the world. Throughout theAmericas right conquest,
throughout Africa, there'sconquest parts of Asia conquest,
and there's plundering of landand resources. There's
enslavement of other people, allhappening in the name of Jesus
Christ. And so it's a verydifferent kind of Christianity
(20:23):
than the one that we began withright in the first 300 years of
the church. And so that's wherethe black church is born out of
that context. It's born out ofthe suffering, again, at the
hands of white WesternChristians who are practicing
this diseased version ofChristianity. And they're on the
underside of that. Similar asAnabaptists are born on the
(20:43):
underside of WesternChristendom, the black church is
born on the underside in themidst of slavery and torture.
Literally, think about centuriesand centuries of torture in the
name of Jesus so that people canget free labor out of people for
their own greed, right? And sodo they completely just reject
Jesus? No, what's striking isthey encounter Jesus for
(21:07):
themselves on the underside, butthey encounter Jesus different
than how it's being preached tothem. So you read the slave
narratives and listen to thespirituals, and all of a sudden
we see a Jesus that's a friendin hard times, a Jesus that's
their that's their CO sufferer,that understands what they're
going through, and a Jesusthat's a liberator that's going
to bring them out right of theirsuffering and their slavery and
(21:29):
bring them towards freedom. Andso they have a different
understanding, rooted in theExodus story and Moses, rooted
in the God of justice that wesee in the prophets, and rooted
in the life and teachings ofJesus, the specificity of who
Jesus was, who he associatedwith, right the least, last,
lost and little ones, thatorients them to a faith that
looks very different than themainstream version that was
(21:51):
intentionally oppressing them.
Joshua Johnson (21:54):
One of the things he said early on is it
took centuries to really beenmeshed within Christendom, and
as you're looking at somethingthat happens around, you know,
reformation time, right beforethat, the Doctrine of Discovery,
what was happening, really,anabaptism, just, you know,
coming up in anti Christendom,we actually then continue, you
(22:17):
know, a few centuries later, alot of times, you know, when I'm
growing up in the whiteEvangelical Church and I'm, you
know, I'm singing songs toJesus, I'm loving, you know,
what he is saying and doing andthese stories and I'm coming. I
don't know the history of what'shappened, happened in the past.
(22:38):
I don't know how this has beenenmeshed, and what some of this
thinking has been, you know,Christendom, some of this
thinking is Jesus. And then howdo I detangle some of that stuff
growing up as I'm like,realizing we're there. So as we
come to this moment today, whatdo you see as still complicit
(23:00):
within mainstream Christianity,as you call it, what is still
complicit within empire, what'shappening
Unknown (23:06):
if we pull together both of those things, right, the
story of Christendom and thestory of the doctrine of
discovery and emergence of whitesupremacy and anti blackness and
slavery and conquest, and youthink about What happens at the
intersection of all of that,right? It begins to help us
understand, I think, almost theinevitable trajectory we were on
(23:28):
that brings us to where we aretoday, right? So a big
conversation point that we'rehaving even right now in our
society, is this leaning in andwrestling with the emergence or
the bolstering? Maybe, is thebetter, not the emergence, the
bolstering of white Christiannationalism, right? And so it's
a Christian faith that seesitself as first and foremost,
not an ecclesial, grassrootsproject in the public square,
(23:52):
but first and foremost, astatecraft, a state project, an
empire project, in which we'vegot to get back to the good old
days where we ran our country,where we had control and could
coercively dictate the moves andthe policies and the practices
that make Christianity normativein broader society. And so it's
(24:14):
not, how do we embody the way ofJesus in the public square, in
before a watching world, beforeour neighbors, right? And then
practice the way of Jesus andembody the way of Jesus, loving
our neighbors, doing justice,showing mercy, seeking peace and
reconciliation in the world.
Instead, it's we're gonna gainpower and dominate and impose
(24:35):
our our particular vision ofChristianity onto a very
pluralistic society that iswhere a lot of people don't even
identify as Christian, andcertainly even others that do
identify Christian, maybe notthat version of Christianity
either, right? And so it's, it'sthat inclination that, I call
it, the Christendom mindset, isdeeply embedded, certainly in
(24:57):
white Christian national. Interms of, we, we might have
dropped off some of the worst ofsome of the medieval practices,
right? We're not torturing, atleast not right now, torturing
folks in the level that happenedduring Christendom. But we
certainly, there's certainly thedesire to return back to a
Christendom society that'sthere. And as well, the Doctrine
(25:19):
of Discovery, you know, theworst of it, in terms of the
violence, at least in our owncountry, we supporting it
globally. In terms of otherplaces, we still support the
dispossession of lands, ofPalestinian people, and all of
that all around the world. Buthere, that work is already done,
but we live inside, happily,inside this vision, without
(25:39):
wrestling with the whitesupremacy and anti blackness
that deeply has shaped ourcultural practices, our
institution let me think aboutlike mass incarceration, the
disparities and funding forpublic education, the legacy we
live in the aftermath of so muchof the housing segregation and
the impact that zip codes thatwere red lines just a few
(26:02):
decades ago aredisproportionately poor today.
We can track that all across thecountry, right? Well, so we
could go on and on about thelegacies in the ways that often
it's Christians, AmericanChristians, that are actually
the most likely to have the thethe most harsh views towards
immigrants, to be the mostpunitive, to be the most war
(26:24):
mongering, to be pro deathpenalty, to have the least care
around trying to figure out howto reduce gun violence in our
communities, to support theharshest polity policies towards
the poor, in terms of access toMedicare and health care and all
of those things. And so we'redeeply, deeply informed by a
(26:48):
society that has this diseaseChristianity, where our values
and our concerns look nothinglike the person that we see
testify to by Matthew, Mark,Luke and John. And so, I mean,
those are some of thechallenges. Is that right now we
live the past is not past. It iswith us. It still lives on and
it haunts us. And until we breakthe cycle and find God's
(27:12):
deliverance, even from our ownChristian history, we're going
to perpetuate it in new ways.
Joshua Johnson (27:19):
It is interesting that it is the
cycles of violence over time andthroughout history that goes
from generation to generation,and it is really generational
trauma, like, if you're talkingabout people talking about
generational trauma, what it'sgoing to the next generation,
you set out a vision of maybeBreaking the cycle and saying
(27:41):
that maybe you call it antiblacktivism, can actually help
break this cycle and bring usinto a space where we can embody
the ways of Jesus. What doesthat look like for us today, and
why are you merging these twotraditions to help us come with
a vision for a better way, yeah.
Unknown (28:01):
So this idea of anabolactivism really just
emerges out of my own livedexperience. First and foremost,
it is I've been the beneficiaryof having a foot in both the
black church and Anabaptistcommunities, right? And that has
deeply, deeply been enriching tomy own faith, challenging to my
(28:21):
own faith, stretching, butcertainly turning my eyes and
fixing my eyes more and more onJesus and on the way of Jesus,
not just claiming Jesus, notjust accepting Jesus into my
heart, but actually embodyingthe way of Jesus. And hopefully
my prayer is that at times, whenI yield enough to what God is
doing in the world that Myneighbors might even get a
(28:43):
glimpse of the Jesus story in mylife, like that's my hope and my
prayer, right? And so these twocommunities are two traditions
that are born on the undersideof Christians, oppressing and
persecuting, right? And did notthrow it out, but instead
salvage Christianity on theunderside by leaning in even
(29:05):
more to the person of JesusChrist, to the particularities
of who he was and hiscommitments and his practices,
his ethics, his conviction, allof that, right? And so I think
for me, there's something reallybeautiful about how to find a
way out by listening andlearning to those that have most
severely understood theconsequences of what this all
(29:26):
has meant. And I think thesetraditions, by unveiling
Christendom and unveiling whitesupremacy as they do, begin to
give us insights imperfectly,but give us insights
nonetheless, for ways forwardthe radical discipleship to
Jesus, right? Is reallysignificant for us today. How do
we really lean into rooted inthe way of Jesus Christ, not
(29:49):
just claiming him, not justsinging songs that make us feel
good about him and that he's ourboyfriend, but really, truly
taking Jesus seriously in ourlives. What does it mean to. To
recognize that that same Jesusidentified with the oppressed,
with he lived as a first centuryPalestinian Jew under Roman
occupation. He understood whatit is to have his cousin
(30:12):
experience. We could call itpolice brutality, so to speak,
right or state execution, rightfor him to be grabbed at night
and to be given state execution.
I mean, he understood thevulnerability of life from the
underside, and he preached that,you know, his first sermon right
from, quoted mostly from Isaiah,the spirit of Lord is upon me
because he's anointing Me tobring good news to the poor,
(30:33):
release to the captives,recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free, toproclaim the year of the Lord's
favor. And so we have thisradical vision of Jesus, who
does exactly that as he goes outin his ministry. So we have
that. We also have from theblack church like this, what I
call the prophetic witness,right? And I think this is
really significant, is so where,like Anabaptists, have had a
(30:53):
really strong emphasis ondiscipleship in the church, some
Anabaptists, not all, but manyAnabaptists sometimes have not
always had a vision for whatdoes that mean to be the church
in the public square, in themidst of empire, in the midst of
evil happening, in the midst ofdeath, dealing forces all around
us. And the black church has atradition of what I call the
(31:16):
prophetic tradition, that is notforetelling what's happening,
but foretelling in the way ofthe prophets, right, in the way
of Isaiah and Jeremiah Micah andAmos right. Let justice roll
down like waters andrighteousness like an ever
flowing stream. That's thatprophetic tradition. And they,
they saw brilliantly theconnection between the prophets
and Jesus, who also, I mean,Jesus loves to more than
(31:39):
anything else. He quotes theprophets and embodies, and, at
times, evokes the prophets in somuch of his ministry that it
gets lost sometimes. So there'sthis prophetic challenge to if
we're going to embody the way ofJesus, it's actually an
embodying and evoking of theprophets as well, that in some
ways that's you could say,that's the Torah, certainly,
especially the Exodus motif. Andthe prophets are a significant
(32:02):
aspect of Jesus' understandingof what we should be drawing on
in Scripture, in the OldTestament, the Hebrew
Scriptures. And so I think thatthat also is really important
for us. So when we combine theradical discipleship with the
prophetic witness, with the antichristenum posture, with an anti
racist and liberativeunderstanding of the gospel of
Jesus Christ. And then you alsobegin to see the ethics of
(32:22):
peacemaking and liberation, andhow all of those things lead
towards a vision of seekingshalom, right? God Shalom in the
world. Great. I love Isaiah 65right? A beautiful vision, a
Shalom that's holistic, that'sgood for all of creation, where
I like to say, where everyonebelongs, everyone can flourish,
where everyone matters, right?
(32:45):
Like this big, whole, big visionfor all of creation that's
restored and all wrongs are setrights. And so, yeah, I think
that these two traditionstogether allow us, and I say
this not as in, like everyoneneeds to become part join the
black church or the Anabaptistcommunity or something like
that, but that we can belearning from these traditions
(33:06):
on the underside, and that thereactually are people who, like
myself and many others, whoactually have lived at that
intersection as well, that Ithink, really give us some great
insights into ways to livefaithfully in the midst of the
challenges we face today.
Joshua Johnson (33:19):
So give us some of these, these ways. So think
about, I'll think about mycommunity, East Kansas City. You
know, you think about redlining.
You have I'm on the east wheremost of you know the black
community resided in KansasCity. It's a poor community
still today. But I want to be inthis community. And I want to
(33:40):
see Shalom happen here. I wantto see the ways of Jesus
embodying the ways of Jesus alsothen seeing like, hey, what has
gone wrong? I want the prophetictradition, the prophetic
witness, to come forward letpeople know, hey, this is not
the way of Jesus is, you know,we have injustice. It's not
(34:00):
just. And let's bring ustogether. How do I, or you know,
us in a community here, see someof the shalom happen? And how do
we do this on a on a microscale, and then on a macro
scale? What do we do withinempire to call Empire out? But
first, let's start with thecommunity. How do we do that on
(34:21):
a micro scale?
Unknown (34:23):
Yeah, so, I mean, what we really need is actual
communities that are not justabout, you know? I mean, I think
it's challenging, like today,many of churches, many of our
churches, are about the ABCs,right, attendance buildings and
cash, right? And they're reallywell organized machines that
have their own survival in mind,and sometimes getting lost,
(34:44):
drifting from our mission of whywe exist in the first place.
Don't know how to be faithcommunities. Don't know how to
be discipling communities. Don'tknow how to be worshiping
communities, and don't know howto be communities that are
engaging our communityfaithfully, right bearing
witness to God's reigning. Theworld, and so I think some of it
is like actually returning tothe very, very most basic,
(35:05):
simple practices of gatheringtogether, discipling, worshiping
and forming, literally beingformed to be a people that go
out and that engage and have theconvictions and the ways of
Jesus kind of embedded in us aswe go out into our
neighborhoods. And so all wegot, I mean, I feel like some
(35:25):
ways, and sometimes maybe like,after a while, you're like, it
seems so simple, I feel likealmost silly saying me something
like, but like we do as Jesusdid, right? We go out, we we
emphasize, we look for thosethat are hurting, those that are
vulnerable, those who've beenpushed to the margins, edges and
cracks of society. And we joinand we share in suffering with
(35:47):
them, and and we make theirpains our pains, and their
struggles are our struggles. Andwe do what we would do we as we
love others, as we loveourselves, we take care of our
own bodies, we take care of ourown concerns. We're going to do
the same thing, and so we'regoing to speak up. We're going
to show we're going to show upat the town hall meetings or at
the school board, or we're goingto, you know, organize, for me,
(36:08):
one of the big things, that's myprevious book. But like
organizing, I think communityorganize is one of the great
ways that we can, on thegrounds, at the grassroots local
level, begin to participate insomething without needing to
feel like we've got to havecontrol over the empire, but
actually still, nonethelessrecognize like there are power
dynamics and policies that needto be changed, and that while we
(36:30):
can't guarantee anything, we'regoing to work for the good of
our neighbors, especially thoselittle, most vulnerable and
poor, right? And so I think,like it's that coming alongside,
joining, not taking over,especially those that you know
maybe are more advantaged insociety, pulling back the
inclination to try to take overand run everything, but first,
learn to be not the teachers,but students, to come alongside,
(36:52):
to join, to be in solidarity, tolink arms, right and struggle. I
think that there's so much thatcan happen, not only for the
liberation of others, but alsofor yourself, because I think
sometimes we don't, you talkabout trauma, right? We all have
this stuff in our bodies thatwe've got to unlearn and be
transformed from and deliveredfrom, that we don't even
(37:13):
sometimes recognize in us. Andit's going to take time of
immersing and coming alongsidefor us to kind of find that
healing, even in our own bodiesin ways that we actually need.
And so that would be my vision,is that local church that's
actually mobilized and engagedand responsive to the needs of
their neighbors, that know thestories of their neighbors, they
know their names, and they knowtheir stories, and they're moved
(37:34):
by them, and they can't but dootherwise, because they love
them.
Joshua Johnson (37:38):
Can you give me a vision for somebody that is in
mainstream Christianity thatfeels like when we have power
and control and trying to makethings the way that you know,
Christendom has made things. Iam comfortable. Things are easy
for me, and I feel like, youknow, we have peace, but not
(38:01):
shalom, right? We have a peacetype of thing, but not true.
Shalom. True, true, deep peace.
So how? How can we help peopleknow that the way of Jesus is
his uncomfortable, it'ssuffering, it's hard. It's for
the margins. It's for theneglected people, the least and
last and the lost. But it's alsogoing to be really good for
(38:21):
people that like are reveling intheir comfort right now.
Unknown (38:28):
Yeah, so one of the things that my church so I'm at
a church that is not onlymultiracial, but
socioeconomically diverse aswell, and I've been there since
what, like 2018 and we developedsome core practices to kind of
orient us, and one of them iswhat we call mutual healing and
liberation, right? And thereason why we said we wanted to
(38:51):
frame that is because it's veryeasy for some folks who are
economically advantaged, havemore education, right? All this
access and all that stuff tofeel like, Oh, I'm gonna serve
and help everyone else out,right? And, you know? And so I
started name I was like this, wegotta, we gotta weed out some of
(39:12):
the paternalism in thiscommunity, right? There's some
paternalism that we've got tokind of reckon with. We got to
name it for what's happening andalso think about and so what I
wanted people to begin to see islike, there's something that we
all need in this. All of us needsomething, and first and fore,
like we've got to see that wealso have lack just because
(39:34):
you're college educated, you gotyour big house and a nice job,
or whatever, you may be lackingmore than so. So how do we begin
to realize all of us need to beon a journey of healing and
liberation. We all need to beliberated from something and
healed from something andactually like the results of
like, let's just say, like,slavery, for example. Like, what
(39:56):
does it do to a community, tothe people in a community?
Reality that for centuries,accommodate slavery. How does
that deteriorate one's humanity?
Right? When anti blacknessbecomes so normative that when
you see black suffering, you'reunmoved, when we hear about
children in Gaza starving, andwe're unmoved, and we got some
(40:19):
biblical verse that we want tocode at people, right? Like
there's, this is good foreverybody. This is healing for
everybody. This istransformation for everybody, so
that all of us starting fromdifferent starting points, but
all moving closer to a healedImago day, right? The image of
God as desired fully who Goddesigned us and created us to
(40:41):
be. That's what we want to be insearch of. That's what we want
to find. And it won't happenoutside of community, but also a
community where truereconciliation, which is
flipping on its head, the socialexpectations right We're the
first to last, and last thefirst, and allows us to truly
(41:02):
rest in who God has created usto be. And so, yeah, I think
there's a journey here that Ithink all of us need. And I do
think that the combination ofanabaptism and Black Theology
have a vision together that can,I think, really invite people
into something really powerfulagain, without necessarily
joining those specifictraditions, but learning from
(41:23):
those traditions, I think arereally powerful for us.
Joshua Johnson (41:27):
Today, I'm going to read you something you you
wrote in your book. It says, Oneof the challenges for the 21st
Century black churches, whetherit's historic orientation of
liberation of black people fromracist systems, will expand to
reflect the depth and width ofthe gospel of Jesus Christ, and
it's good news for all oppressedpeople. This includes
recognizing the deliberativesignificance of Jesus's life for
(41:49):
everyone recognizes the inherentdignity of each person and
practicing the rule of thekingdom where the last are first
and the first are last. God'sliberation is not limited to
race and poverty. It extends togender, sexuality, abilities and
anytime people are stigmatized,socially rejected or
discriminated against, how dopeople coming from an oppressed
(42:12):
place actually get a vision forother oppressed people and
saying, Hey, my suffering hasbeen long, and I want freedom.
And how do we get a vision forall people?
Unknown (42:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the beauty of what Jesus
invites us into. Is Jesusdoesn't only get drawn to those
who are poor, but also to theSamaritans, and not only the
Samaritans, but also women whoare being ostracized right under
patriarchy. And not only that, Imean, He even talks to Matthew
about the eunuchs, right? He'sgot attention to this really
(42:48):
small group of folks, right? Andso what we see is this expansive
vision. And it's not by accidentthat Jesus one of the when he
goes into the temple and clasheswith the temple elites. One of
the passages that is echoed isIsaiah 56 which is the inclusion
of foreigners and eunuchs,right? It's this Jesus first
(43:11):
sermon in Luke four. They'reconcerned about their own
liberation, right? And they'reloving him for that, for Jesus
of walking Isaiah 58 and 61 butwhen he starts talking about the
foreigners, and they're includedin this thing, then they're like
this, we're gonna throw thisdude off the cliff, right? And
so it's this expandingliberation, this expanding
(43:31):
deliverance for all people thatI think Jesus, if we follow Him
and immerse ourselves in thestory, our hearts begin to
widen. And I do think we oughtto then begin. Everyone has
struggles, and so do we chooseto lean into and see our shared
humanity as we experience thesethings and what connects us as
(43:52):
human beings, rather than theother, in group, out group, kind
of mindset that we can fallinto? Right? So that's a
challenge. So we need to hearthe stories of others and hold
them dearly. For me, that'sdeeply shaped me. I mean, I grew
up in a my church was way morelike patriarchal than I am and
all that stuff. But as I beganto hear women's stories, right,
(44:17):
Jesus was working on me and theHoly Spirit was working on me to
expand my empathy and myunderstanding and even my own
complicity in harm that I'vedone to others, right? And so
that's the work of followingJesus in a way that isn't only
about my own deliverance, butseeing its unit, the universal
salvation of God breaking out tothe nations, right? And I think
(44:40):
that that's really an importantpart. It's hard, it's hard work,
and we'll never have like, look,none of us are God. We don't
take this posture from abovethat we are all knowing of all
the different situations goingon in the world. But as we meet
and encounter other people'spains and struggles, that's our
invitation to follow Jesus into.
To follow the way of Jesus intothese conflicts and concerns and
(45:01):
struggles that people carry.
Joshua Johnson (45:06):
That's so good.
And you know, for so many peoplein the church, we talk about
discipleship, and we talk aboutdiscipleship to Jesus, and
sometimes we we get off and wefigure out we're actually
discipling to something otherthan the the ways of Jesus and
the teaching of Jesus, but we'rediscipling to maybe, you know,
(45:26):
Christendom, or culturalChristianity, and not the ways
of Jesus. What are some someways that we can make sure that
we are discipled towards theways of Jesus, that we could
start to embody Jesus in theworld and not go off into
discipling, into Christendomagain,
Unknown (45:48):
one of these things where it's like, it's so simple,
right? But we have to actuallysay it, I guess. But like, but
first of all, we have to immerseourselves in the story of Jesus,
right? Like, that's MatthewMark. Like, there's a beautiful
Dietrich Bonhoeffer quotes fromwhen he's in prison. And I think
I already almost echoed him alittle bit earlier, but, but he
(46:10):
talks about, like, must immerseourselves slowly, again and
again in the Life teachings,death and resurrection of Jesus
Christ, something like that,right? He says this little go
off quote, I think it's just sobeautiful, right? Because here
he is. He's dealing with samesituation, right? Like he's seen
how terrible Christianity hasgone in Germany. And so it's a
(46:33):
facade of the real thing, right,a shadow of of what it ought to
be. And so it's like we've gotto actually spend some time with
Jesus. And so there's both inthe written form, and then in
our lives, yielding to to Jesusin our lives to embody and to
encounter and to to know. And soit's the two together, right?
(46:55):
And then having practices in ourcommunities that actually help
us, we'll say, socialize us intothe way of Jesus, right? I love
the early church. I mean, justthe vision of like, they had,
like intensive catechismprocesses that could last, like
multiple years to socialize youinto the way Jesus Christ,
(47:17):
right? And that includes like, Ilove Cyprian. He's like, he
complains about how initially,like, it's hard. He's like, had
to give up his like, niceclothes and the nice food and
all this stuff. And he's servingthe poor. Like, that's a part of
their catechism process, right?
They're out there serving folks.
And so there's a re socializingthat happens that actually
(47:38):
preceded the baptism. So whatare we doing? What kind of
experiential practices, whatkind of serving and what kind of
way of life are we helpinginitiate people into that gives
them some direction on somepractical ways of living and
being right? Have been leadingthis program at Messiah called
thriving together congregationsfor racial justice. And, you
(48:01):
know, among all the differentthings we do, we take them on,
like, a week long civil rightstrip, right? It's this immersive
experience, right, that deeplyshapes these folks. Do not come
back the same, right? Becauseit's experiential. It's not just
reading books that is always thething that more than anything
else that we do, no matter, webring in speakers, amazing
speakers from all over thecountry and all it's the
(48:24):
experience that once they havethat it's like there's no going
back, right? And so and they'remeeting people for the first
time, people who were involvedin the movements, who are still
alive, hearing their testimoniesand experience and that they're
going to carry that with themfor a long time. So what I think
in the church, we need to alsoinitiate and socialize people
(48:45):
into the way of Jesus Christ,creatively, thoughtfully and
contextually for our spaces thatwe're in. Drew if
Joshua Johnson (48:51):
you could talk to your readers of making it
plain, what hope do you have forthis book and for the readers of
making it plain?
Unknown (48:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's multiple hopes I have. I
mean, I think one is simply thatI hope that we understand how we
got to where we are today. Ithink there's a lot of folks who
are frustrated with the church,frustrated with Christian
nationalism, that that's a bigtopic right now. A lot of people
try to understand how you getfrom the life and teachings of
(49:21):
Jesus to Christian nationalism,right? It's a there's a lot of
cognitive dissonance, andthere's a lot of people walking
away from Christianity becauseof the way that Jesus is His
name is vandalized in the publicsquare. And so I want us to
understand that there's ahistory, a much longer history,
a lot of people want toemphasize, which is, right? All
the history around like the 80sand the Moral Majority movement,
(49:44):
all of that stuff is importanthistory to understand our
current political situation. Butthere's a much older story that
I think is even more significantthat made even the Moral
Majority movements probablyinevitable, right at some point.
And so I want us to understand.
In Christendom, and I want us tounderstand the doctrine of
discovery and the things thatare taken for granted, and also
then help Christians understandthere have always been Christian
(50:08):
communities on the undersidethat are reinterpreting and
salvaging the way of JesusChrist on the ground, and that
in my personal experience, Iwant to offer a gift of the two
that have really deeply shapedme right, which is anabaptism in
the black church, and thatsomehow, through learning with
the broader church, andparticularly these communities
(50:31):
that have followed Jesus fromthe underside, we might also
have a more faithful witness, amore radical discipleship, A
more prophetic witness, a morebeautiful whole healing
community that we're a part of,and that we might actually
participate in seeking theshalom of our communities and
out of our nation and so and ofthe worlds, right, that we would
(50:52):
be participating what God isdoing in the world. And so,
yeah, I think that that it feelsso timely right now in response
to so much of what's going on inthe church, that we need to kind
of recalibrate back to Jesus andrediscover a Jesus shaped way of
life.
Joshua Johnson (51:09):
Yes, yes. Couple quick questions I have for you
at the end here. One, if you goback to your 21 year old self,
what advice would you give my
Unknown (51:16):
21 year old self? Wow, I don't even know what that's a
really fascinating question tothink about. What advice I would
give, probably just to I mean,things I did, but I do think,
you know, as I feel like I'mgetting old, I'm not old today,
maybe sometimes I do rememberwhen I was in my 20s, it was a
(51:40):
young woman I was talking to fora little bit. She was interested
in me. We never actually becamea thing but, but she did tease
me once to say I had a spirit ofan 80 year old. So, so maybe, so
maybe there's some of thatcoming out of me still, even
though I'm only 43 but I dothink the relationships and
leaning into relationships, justtreasuring time with people is
(52:02):
really significant. Beingpresent is something that I
would say, I think I would say,probably for me, I think I
probably would have told myselfto trust my gut a little bit
more, as it related to when mybody was telling me that certain
spaces that something was alittle off. In some Christian
(52:25):
spaces, trust my body a littlesooner, like your body, the
alarms are going off for areason. Look into that, lean
into that question, what wasgoing on? I think I was, to some
degree, but I also was probablyoverly patient with some things
that I probably could havespared myself from, but also
(52:45):
just love Jesus and to keepfollowing him, and that he's
going to take me on a wildjourney that I will not
anticipate. Where it's going,but it's going to be really
good.
Joshua Johnson (52:54):
So yes, that's good. Anything you've been
reading or watching lately, youcould recommend one
Unknown (52:59):
of my former professors and briefly colleague who at
Messiah, he wrote a book calledGod's apocalyptic insurrection.
I think, I think I'm getting thetitle right. I should know the
title of the meeting, but reallybeautiful accounting of the
gospel and for our times. So ifyou're looking for a holistic
(53:20):
theology of salvation inparticular, tied into God's in
breaking kingdom. It's reallybeautiful and timely again for
kind of stuff that we're goingon, that's going on right now
and almost been working throughthe the lamb of the free a great
book on atonement theology aswell. Yeah, so many, I don't
know, but, yeah, those are someof the good books I've been
(53:44):
reading. Great.
Joshua Johnson (53:45):
Well, making it plain, is available anywhere
books are sold? Drew is thereanywhere you'd like to point
people specifically to get thebook? And is there any way
anywhere else you'd like topoint people to?
Unknown (53:56):
Yeah, no, you can get them anywhere books are sold. I
mean, you can order them at yourown bookstore. If you go to the
Herald press website, you canorder them through there as
well. And so, yeah, anywhere youwant to buy your books is
Joshua Johnson (54:09):
great, great.
Any, any way they could connectwith you, connect with any, any
other thing that you're doing.
Unknown (54:16):
Yeah, you could keep track of me. So I do. I mean, I
don't really use it that muchbut, but I do have a website
where you can contact me. SoDrew gi heart.com, you can.
There's a contact thing there.
So you ever have questions, wantto reach out, want to invite me
to your community. I'm alwaysglad to do things like that. I
am always speaking and travelingquite a bit, so I'll be all over
(54:37):
the place, all over the countrythis fall and spring, you can
find me online. Have pretty muchalmost all my social media
accounts are at d r u H, A R T,Drew heart, d r u H, A R T. And
so you can keep track of methere, and you can find me. In
Harrisburg. I live inHarrisburg. Pa attend Harrisburg
(55:01):
First Church of the Brethren,and so if you ever in the area,
come check us out. We're a coollittle community in Allison Hill
neighborhood of Harrisburg.
Joshua Johnson (55:11):
All right. Well, DREW Thank you for bringing us
into the history of Christendom,Christianity, the Doctrine of
Discovery, and where that hasled us to today, and how Anna
baptism and the black church cancome give us a great vision of
how to deeply follow Jesus andradical discipleship be a
prophetic witness to tell truthto power and say, this is the
(55:35):
way of Jesus, and let's actuallyfollow Him and be for the the
oppressed, the marginalized,just like Jesus was, and so we
could actually see mutualflourishing for everyone. So
Drew. Thank you. This is afantastic conversation.
Unknown (55:49):
Thank you for having me.
You
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