Ep. 341 John Fugelsang - Separation of Church and Hate - Shifting Culture

Episode Transcript
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John Fugelsang (00:00):
I like to say spiritual people use religion to
become better people than theywere. Fundamentalists use
religion to argue they're betterpeople than you you

Joshua Johnson (00:20):
Joshua, hello and welcome to the shifting
culture podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, on
shifting culture, we're alwaysasking, What does it mean to
follow Jesus in the complexityof our world. What does it look

(00:42):
like to move past slogans andpower struggles into something
deeper, something that actuallyresembles the way of Christ?
That's the space John peoplesaying pushes us into today.
John is a comedian, an actor anda political commentator, raised
by a mother who is a former nun,a father who is a former
Franciscan brother, and out ofthat unlikely beginning, he's

(01:04):
carried a deep concern for howfaith is lived and how it's
distorted. His new book,separation of church and hate
traces the ways fundamentalismand nationalism have twisted
Christianity into a pursuit ofpower. But he doesn't just leave
us in critique. He brings usback again and again to the
Jesus who welcomed the stranger,lifted up women, called for non

(01:26):
violence and modeled humility.
This conversation is sharp. Yes,you might not be used to the
cutting that's about to happen,but stay with us and listen to
someone who is trying to pointus back to what matters most,
and invite us to imagine how theway of Jesus might still break
the cycles of violence and hatewe're caught in today. So join
us. Here is my conversation withJohn Fuglsang, John, welcome to

(01:50):
shifting culture. This is gonnabe a great conversation. I'm
excited to dive straight inRight on. Thank you this book
separation of church and hatethat you have coming out, I
think is fantastic. You'rehelping people realize that
there is a Christ Christianity,and a Christ less Christianity
that is out there. And one ofthe things that is happening is

(02:13):
most people think that there isa Christless Christianity, like
Christianity is somethingdifferent. What is
fundamentalism for you, and howhave fundamentalists hijacked
Christianity?

Oh, man, let's go. Let's open with the light
stuff. I mean, you know, theylike to say the largest growing
religious demographic in Americaare Mormons. Some will say it's
Islam. Lately, they say it's,it's nones, it's none of the
above. I think the largestgrowing religious group in
America are people who used toconsider themselves religious

(02:48):
and now consider themselvesspiritual because they are
turned off not by Jesus, not byGod, not by the Bible, not by
Santa Claus. They're turned offby the cruelties and hypocrisies
of these pious men, often indresses and funny hats, and
that's the atheism factory.
Fundamentalism is what's drivingyoung people away from religion.
It's not God, it's not Jesus,and it's not Satan, although

(03:11):
Satan might be guiding thefundamentalists, I like to say
spiritual people use religion tobecome better people than they
were. Fundamentalists usereligion to argue they're better
people than you, and they arethe ones who are the core Ultra
conservatives of every religion,the most Orthodox, the most

(03:32):
extreme right, the ones who areabsolutely certain that they and
only they speak for the one andonly true God, and anyone who
opposes me obviously representsSatan, because I'm on the side
of God. So fundamentalists, youknow, we're not going to sit
down with Satan and negotiateschool curriculum, negotiate who
gets to get married. You're onthe side of Satan. And what we

(03:55):
have to remember is when peoplesay, when our atheist friends
say, oh, religion's responsiblefor all of the oppression of
women and violence andhomophobia, and I gotta say, No,
it's not religion. It's thefundamentalist Wings of all the
great fundamentalist Islam,fundamentalist Judaism,
fundamentalist Christianity,have more in common with each

(04:18):
other than they do with liberalor moderate Judaism or
Christianity. And I say there'sfive traits Joshua that all that
all fundamentalists carry, ofdoesn't matter their religion.
If you're a fundamentalistMuslim, Hindu, women are always
second class citizens. The moreconservative your religious
group is, the more God justlikes men better. Oh, it's God's

(04:38):
will. Secondly, is that violenceis okay if my side does it,
because I'm on the one side ofGod, sex is bad, except for
procreation. If women and gaypeople like it, focus on
punishment more than healing forall fundamentalists of all
religions. And finally, there'salways. Penchant of for

(04:59):
victimhood among fundamentaliststhat they use to justify any
cruelties they do. It's thevictim bully mindset. Well,
someone did it to me, so I getto do it to others. And the
overwhelming majority ofChristians, Jews and Muslims
around the world are gettingalong just fine right now in
businesses and schools andfamilies, but it's the
fundamentalists of all the greatreligions that are ruining the

(05:22):
great religions and keep gettingall the media attention.

You know, I lived in the Middle East for
five years, spent a lot of timewith Muslims sitting in their
living rooms, and Arab Muslimsare the most hospitable people
on the planet. They're so kindand loving. But it is the
fundamentalist arm I spoke to aPalestinian Christian talking
about how their forefatherslived in that area before 1948

(05:50):
of how Muslims and Jews andChristians all lived together,
got along, celebrated with eachother, celebrated each other's
holidays, and supported oneanother until fundamentalists
come along and try to get

power. I mean, if the liberal Jews and
Palestinians were in charge, youwould not see this kind of
conflict. The Netanyahu regimeand the Hamas regime are mirror
images. They prop each other up.
They're extreme conservative.
They've decided that violenceagainst civilians is okay. Both
sides have decided that, becauseGod, I'm on God's side, I can do

(06:26):
this, and both sides betraytheir fates. And you know,
Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Imean, he 2019 he needs them
because he needs a bad guy. Sothey're all wartime consigliere
is the liberal Muslims and Jewswould be insufferable trying non
stop to bring peace. I think allnegotiation should be done by
Palestinians and Israelis underthe age of 45 because they're

(06:48):
the ones who are going to haveto live with this peace one day.
And I've lost faith in oldergenerations to settle this.

There may be a different way. There's a way
that we've done things for yearsand years, but there may be
something different. Maybe wecould try something. But what I
want to know is, how didChristians decide that they
wanted somebody to follow?
They've started to follow Jesus,who is anti empire, living in
the empire, but choosing adifferent way, and then deciding
with Constantine, deciding tosay we're going to align with

(07:17):
Empire, and for so many yearsthat we've aligned with Empire.
Now it seems like there'sChristians that want power. Yes,
this is the thing that theywant, is power, worldly power,
and not following the ways ofJesus. How? How did a
Christianity that followed antiempire and laying down their

(07:37):
lives, for the least of thesebecome a meshed with an empire.

I mean, you just nailed it. You know it was it
was Rome. This is what my bookis largely about, and how
marginalized religious sect thatwas so persecuted became an
imperial religion that got topersecute smaller sects. How did
the bullied faith go to beingthe bullying empire. And
obviously, you know, Paul comesin the middle of all of this.

(08:06):
Jesus dies. There's differentministries trying to keep his
movement going, but all of hisapostles were getting bumped off
by Paul's friends. Paul, being aRoman citizen and a Pharisee,
had a lot more freedom to travelthroughout the Roman Empire than
the apostles did while all theywere all getting murdered by
Paul's old buddies, so Paulcould travel all through the
Holy Land and reach out to theGentiles. He was a born again

(08:28):
kid with a dream, and he had agreat sales pitch. It's like
Judaism, but you can eat all thebacon you want and keep your
foreskin. And it was anincredible, incredible rate of
conversion. And within 200years, the Empire that murdered
Jesus took over his operation,and once they did it, the simple

(08:49):
teachings of the homeless Jewishfaith healer carpenter who wants
you to love your enemies, thoseare out the window, and they're
replaced by hierarchies anddogma and cathedrals and
rankings and guilt and shame.
And then come the Crusades, whenthey start first having this
image of the warrior Christ thathas nothing to do with the
Christ of the Bible, but this isthe warrior Christ. And then,

(09:10):
you know, this led to thecrusades, and that's the
history. Then you get theDoctrine of Discovery, where
more men in funny hats aresaying, well, now it's okay to
go rape foreign lands if youforcibly convert their residents
to Christianity, which is whatrationalized the age of
discovery. It's that we're goingto murder these people and

(09:31):
enslave them, and we're going totake their resources, but we'll
save them. We'll force them toconvert to our religion, and
then it'll be okay that we'reabusing them and raping them and
stealing from them, and as wewell know, and as slavery and
the Indians proved being saveddidn't save anybody, and it's
all power. And that's what mybook is all about, separation of
church and hate. It's all abouthow all of these disparate Maga

(09:52):
Christians and nationalists andfundamentalists, their true
creed is power, they don't careabout. Teachings of Christ. They
don't really care aboutabortion, not the ones in power.
I mean, the people care aboutabortion, but if Republicans
cared about abortion, you'd seesex ed. You'd see more free
access to birth control. Theytry to reduce unwanted they

(10:13):
don't care. They don't careabout illegal immigration. If
they wanted it to stop, theywould start locking up the white
people who do all the hiring andput up the help wanted sign at
our border, they don't care.
They care about power. And ifabusing Muslims gets me there
this year, if abusing gaymarriage, if abusing feminism
gets me, if it's abortion thisyear and and hating the

(10:33):
Christian refugees that we aregroomed to call illegals next
year, it doesn't matter. It'sall about power for them. But I
want to say there's a flip sideto all of this. And you nailed
it, Joshua, in yourintroduction. There's two
groups. There's the Christians,and there's the Jesus followers.
And throughout history, when theChristians have gone too far,
it's always been the Jesusfollowers, and they're allies of

(10:56):
other faiths, and their allieswho are atheist and agnostic,
who've had to push back againstthe bat shit Christians. So the
Crusades, right? But St Francisquits the Crusades. Campaigns
against war. You've gotColumbus, and they're enslaving
the people. The first act ofprotest by a white person in
this hemisphere was the Catholicpriest Columbus brought over
Bartolomeo de las casas, whowrote to the Queen to protest

(11:18):
the way we were treating theindigenous folks because it
wasn't normal. People knew itwas wrong. Back then, slavery
was propped up by Christianity,and it was Jesus followers like
Frederick Douglass and theQuakers and Harriet Tubman who
pushed back segregation, proppedup by Christianity and a Baptist
minister named Martin LutherKing and his allies, including
Jews and atheists, pushed backhomophobia, propped up by

(11:39):
Christianity. Jesus followerssaid, Wait a second. None of
this bigotry towards gay peoplealigns with Christ. Go through
it all throughout the wholehistory of the faith, it's been
Christians who just want powerdoing all the unchrist like
things, and it's always theJesus followers who aren't
always all Christian, who'vealways pushed back.

How did you reconcile some of this growing
up, the faith that you inheritedfrom your parents. I know that
your parents talks a lot aboutfollowing the ways of Jesus,
like going towards themarginalized, caring for the
least of these and then whatmade you actually see a
difference in the church tryingto go after power, or

(12:19):
Christianity trying to go afterpower. What happened in your own
story where you were saying, oh,there's maybe something
different here?

Well, yeah, but I have an abnormally religious
upbringing. My mother was a nun.
Went into the convent right outof high school. They put her
through nursing school. Sheworked in Africa with lepers,
and was in the convent for 16years. My dad was a Franciscan
brother who taught history toCatholic boys in Brooklyn and
the Brooklyn Franciscan fell inlove with the southern couldn't
say anything. Carried a torchfor many years, but they were

(12:48):
both steeped in the humility ofChrist. Obviously, the nuns and
I came to believe that mymother's order kind of groomed
women to confuse humility withself loathing. But my father
came from the Franciscans, whichis all about a culture of
service, and that's all Jesusis. He modeled servant
leadership. The guy who iswashing the feet of poor people

(13:08):
is not the guy who cares abouttotal right wing domination of
your local school board. It's amovement of humility and grace
and looking out for the least ofthese. But growing up, I began
to notice that my culture had avery different definition of
Christianity. My dad was asocial studies teacher. The news
was always on, and this is inthe 80s. I'm growing up, and I'm

(13:29):
seeing the falwells and the PatRobertsons and the swaggarts on
the news, introduced asChristian leaders, but they
didn't talk about anything Jesustalked. They didn't talk about
poverty, didn't talk aboutwelcoming the stranger. They
didn't talk about the evils ofracism. These guys actually
talked about the evils of theseprotests against racism. And it
was very confusing for me, andas I got older, it got more and

(13:54):
more confusing. By the time it'sthe 1990s if you were a young
person and said you'reChristian, most people would
assume, Oh, you hate gay peopleand you think women should go to
jail for ending pregnancies likeAnd back then, being a
conservative Christian wasn'tsynonymous with despising
immigrants. Ronald Reagan andGeorge Bush ran against each
other in 1980 both competing tosee who could do more to help

(14:17):
the undocumented. Because it wasgood to get power back then. Now
it's good to get power bydespising these people and
smearing them and calling themillegals, when in reality,
asylum seekers can't be illegal.
If you're on American soil, youcan claim asylum. There's no
illegal part, and crossing theborder is a misdemeanor. I don't
know any other misdemeanors thatcan have your kids stolen from

(14:38):
you, but they cross the borderbecause there's a help wanted
sign that Donald Trump and hisfriends put up. Donald Trump's
the only president to have hiredundocumented workers in two
different centuries. Our economyis propped up by this exploited,
brown labor force, and it alwayshas been. They're not going
after the agricultural workersbecause Donald Trump knows
prices would go up, so they'reactually letting some of. Them

(15:00):
stay. They're giving lie to thefact that this whole thing is a
racist scam. They'll never goafter the guys who own the meat
packing plant. They'll justarrest all the guys working in
the meat packing plant. Andthat's the system we've grown up
in. And for me, as I got older,I began to recognize, no, I'm
not weird. My parents actuallywere following the Jesus parts
of it. I mean, they weresexually uptight. That's a whole

(15:20):
other story, which Jesus wasn'tbut, I mean, so we've all been
groomed to think that thismeanness, this pious meanness,
is Christianity. I mean, we'vebeen groomed to believe it. Two
generations have been raised tothink that criminalizing
abortion and being mean to gaypeople has something to do with
the ministry of Jesus, and sothat sort of became my mission

(15:44):
as I got older, and as I gotfurther away from the organized
religion of the Catholic Church,I got deeper and deeper into
theology and Scripture. And as acomedian, my managers and agents
hated it, but I love talkingabout this stuff. And as a TV
and radio host, I've alwayswanted to have theolog I debated
Bill Donohue of the CatholicLeague. I debated Jerry Falwell
senior. I got to debate DavidDuke on Bill Maher's show. And I

(16:06):
just got tired of seeing myparents faith used as a cover
for meanness. These people don'tfollow Jesus. They use him as a
prop. I have Trump supporterscall my show all the time. Trump
Christians, right? And they getfurious because I won't call
them illegals. They're Christianrefugees. Your viewers should do
that with your racist uncle.
They'll love it. But I say, giveme a teaching of Christ that

(16:26):
this Maga movement is foughtfor. Number one thing, they'll
say, abortion. I gotta sayChrist didn't mention abortion.
God didn't have any of theprophets. Moses never comes up.
Which Christ was against thedeath penalty. But y'all differ
with him on that, right? So thesecond thing they'll say most
often is a strong border. And Igotta say, the only commandment
in the entire Bible aboutimmigration or borders is the

(16:47):
commandment to welcome thestranger, and God does it all
over the Hebrew Scriptures willnot let us mistreat them. We
must treat them as our own.
Christ goes farther in Matthew25 and says, individuals and
nations will be judged heaven orhell by how they welcome the
strangers. So why should Ilisten to Donald Trump and
reject God and Jesus? And thethird most common thing I get

(17:10):
Joshua from the our hardcoremega Christians is, well, he
moved the US embassy toJerusalem, and I'm like, Well, I
hate to tell you, but Christ inthe Bible never mentions the
United States or our embassy inthe year 33 ad, they haven't
read the Bible, and yourlisteners know this. It's a prop
to prove they're better thanyou. So I say, you know, if

(17:33):
you're dealing with the rightwing, nine times out of 10,
whether you're a believer ornot, Jesus is probably on your
side.

I know what you use. I think you use some
satire, some comedy to help, youknow, unveil what's going on. To
see something there. I think youknow some people, if they use
arguments or call people names,it's not really going to work,
correct? If I'm not a comedianlike you, if my tongue is not as

(18:00):
sharp as yours in satire, whatcan the average person do to
stand up to actually show thatthere is a different way? Yeah,
a way to stand up against theEmpire, or way to stand up
against people who are trying totake Christianity away from us.

Yeah, again, that's why I wrote this book. I
wanted to take every issue thatdivides us, from feminism to
abortion rights, LGBTQ rights,healthcare, poverty, guns,
sexuality. I wanted to takeevery issue that divides us and
show the top right wingarguments to justify meanness,
and then show how the Jesusargument is usually the opposite

(18:39):
of the right wing. Now, withcomedy and satire, I can be
quite lacerating, but one of thethings I've grown to understand
is that I don't want to be meanto people who are just led
astray. I try to make my targetseither people in power or mean
people. I try very hard to I'mnot allowed to hate anybody

(18:59):
because I'm not good enough tohate anyone, but I try to go
after the meanness, not afterpeople who have been suckered by
the meanness. I don't reallythink you can convert Maga
people into the light. You cantry. Lord knows, we've seen so
many progressives coax a lot ofconservative loved ones out of
homophobia. In the last 25years, we've seen it. We've

(19:22):
become a kinder society in manyways. If you told me in the 90s
we'd have gay marriage and ablack president, we'd stop
putting people in jail forcannabis, I wouldn't have
believed the human race couldget that kind in 30 years. So I
have a lot of faith in us, but Ifind when you're dealing with
these people and you're notgoing to rely on quick one
liners, sincerity. Don't beafraid. Refuse to hate them no

(19:45):
matter how mean they are to you.
And know the Scripture go inknowing where Jesus comes down
on the argument. And that's whyI wrote this book, to be about
all these issues and what theright says about everything and
why they're wrong, but we can'thate them back. Back right? I
don't really think you cannecessarily convert anyone, but
my biggest piece of advice wouldbe try to avoid debating these
right wing Christians in avacuum. Try, if you can, to

(20:10):
debate them around other peopleat the cookout or in social
media in public, because you getto model kindness. You get to
model listening. You get tomodel turning the other cheek.
Sometime you get to model nothating, right? You can be funny
if you want. You don't have totry, but you have to be sincere.
You have to know your points.
You have to know what Jesus saidversus what your opponent

(20:31):
claims. Let them be the hatefulones. Let them be the ignorant
ones. Your job is to be therelaxed person in the room who
knows their and can quoteScripture. And again, you might
not convert them, but I foundsomething really interesting.
Very often they'll appreciateyou took the time to rather than
just say, Oh, you right wingracist, but you came to meet

(20:51):
them on their own terms anddiscuss scripture. And that can
build a bridge even if you don'tagree. I also think you can just
ask them to acknowledge yourpoints. So even if they don't
agree, they'll have toacknowledge they heard you, and
the points will be in theirbrain, which which helps a lot.
But I think what's mostimportant is to know that even
if you can't reach them, you canreach their wives, you can reach

(21:11):
their kids, you can reach theother people at the cookout who
are listening. Because you'regoing to model sincerity, you're
going to model respect, love, ifpossible, and you're going to
model knowing what the hell isin the damn Bible, rather than
just assuming that because I putup a Christmas tree in my house
once a year, God likes me betterthan Muslims.

So I want to actually then get into some of
the stuff that you get into inthe book, and one is going to be
around violence. And I actuallythink that our militarism in
America is so anti Jesus. Andit's not just right wing, it's
also left wing. We're warmongersin the United States. It's just

who's the left wing? Who's a left wing
warmonger, who's a left wingwarmonger? There are

Democrats.
Didn't want peace. All the time.
Oh, all the time.

I thought we were left wingers. You're
talking about Democrats. Yes,Democrats are fine with it, but,
but then also, it's like thelines are so blurred now,
because, you know, like, it'sone, okay, Ukraine, they're our
ally. We signed a treaty in 1994that we protect them. If Russia
invaded, we're, you know, Imean, I know Americans love
breaking treaties, ask anIndian, but Palestine is
something completely different,right? I mean, it's like, you

(22:21):
know, war and carnage andviolence is not one side fits
all, but I'm with you on themilitarism and and I trace it
all back to the Crusades. And,yeah, it's, it's an insult to
Jesus, and I go deep on it inthe book.

So go a little deep and tell us why you think
that Jesus followers maybeshould model a different way.
Maybe there is a different waythan militarism

look a Jesus follower. Or you can be a guy
into fighting and violence. Youcan't be both. Okay. You either
believe turn the other cheek oryou don't. When Jesus comes up
and says, turn the other cheek,when he tells people to pray for
your oppressors, he's sayingthis to a group of Jews who are

(23:02):
occupied by European military,and he's telling them to bless
their oppressors. You want totalk about a tough room these
people wanted the year. How arewe going to drive these Romans
out of our land? And Jesus issaying, love them and forgive
them, like he's talking aboutnot getting even and not
wreaking revenge on evil ratbastards who desperately deserve

(23:23):
it. He's talking about breakingthe cycle of violence. It's not
about you winning over the otherguy. It's about you win if
you're the side to break theback and forth of the violence
that's his entire the last wordsout of his mouth before he dies
after he is executed andmurdered by the Romans, is

(23:43):
begging God to forgive thepeople who murdered tortured and
humiliated him. He was not intoretaliation or revenge in any
way. Now, the big argumentyou'll get, and I go deep on
this, I'll try to really quick,is in Luke, Luke 22 where Jesus
says, sell your cloak and buy asword. And that's the quote the
gun does use. Sell your cloak.
Jesus, excuse me, Mr. Liberal.

(24:06):
Jesus said, Sell your cloak andbuy a sword. And an AR 15 is the
modern sword, sir. And they loveit, right? They love having
civilians getting access tomachines designed to kill lots
of civilians really fast thathave no civilian use, but they
love it, because Jesus said,Sell your cloak and buy a sword
in Luke 22 so when you read Luke22 and see what the story is

(24:28):
really about, it's the nightJesus is being arrested, and
he's talking about how they haveto fulfill the prophecy of
Isaiah that they were numberedamong the transgressors. You
know this. So he says, sell yourcloak and buy a sword, because
we have to be criminals for theprophecy to come true, we got to
be armed. And right away, theapostles Jesus, we have two
swords. Jesus says, oh, that'senough. Okay. And so they carry
on. Have their night. No onegoes out to buy swords late

(24:49):
night at the Jerusalem Walmart.
And then when the Romans, I'msorry, when the temple guards
show up to arrest him and hisfriends want to use their swords
in Matthew, Jesus says he. Livesby the sword, will die by the
sword. So Jesus doesn't come outagainst swords. He comes out
against using them, and he comesout against self defense. But
from that, they took one line,sell your cloak and buy a sword.

(25:10):
And the only way you can do thatis if you ignore the rest of
Luke 22 and if you ignore therest of Matthew Mark, Luke and
John, because Jesus was not aguy who was about armed
resistance or violence as selfdefense. So just as they ignore
the well regulated militia partof the Second Amendment, they
will ignore all of Luke 22 justto pick one sentence and say,

(25:33):
This is why mentally unstable 20somethings need machine guns.
You just

talked about cycles of violence and Jesus
breaking through the cycles ofviolence. I think this is what
has been tried with nonviolence,resistance over them and
achieved and achieved violencecannot stand nonviolence. It
just can't. And it is, it iscrazy to me that they hate it.

They can kill a lot of you. They can kill a lot
of violent protesters, no doubt.
But can you imagine if Gandhilived in a time when everybody
in India had a video camera intheir pocket and could film
human rights abuses? He wouldhave gotten the British out of
there 10 years sooner. This iswhy I keep saying Palestine, the
next Gandhi is going to comefrom Israel or Palestine, and
they're going to do it withvideo cameras, because I think

(26:20):
you can't get away with thatkind of brutality on the world
stage anymore. And John Lennonsaid it fascists, if you're
violent with them, they know howto crush you. The only things
fascist can't handle are humorand non violence.

Don't know if people really realize how
revolutionary and radical Jesusreally was,

they don't, and we're not taught that the
Conservatives took over thisradicals operation. That was
Paul. We had this incredible,revolutionary rock star, and his
whole operation was taken overby this deeply conservative,
uptight, closeted, most likelyconservative dude.

Just even take the Jesus's treatment of women,
of how Jesus totally wentagainst the culture, treated
women with dignity, respect,brought him into the fold as
disciples that they werelearning from him. You know,
especially we're looking atsomething like Doug Wilson was
just profiled in CNN and hismovement. Basically, it was

(27:19):
like, hey, only heads ofhouseholds are going to be able
to vote. We don't want

women to vote.
Women. They like the OldTestament, and they like Paul,
they don't like what comes inbetween.

And So let them know, what did Jesus say? Who is
he? What did he do for

women? I mean, the greatest feminists in the
Bible. And before I even begin,let me just say that Jews are so
far ahead of Christians onfeminism at this point, we're a
younger religion. We're catchingup. But you know, our Hebrew
friends had a female primeminister in Israel way before
America elected a femalepresident in 2016 who wasn't
allowed to have the job. But wedid pick one. We did a popular

(27:54):
vote. So having said that, Jesusgrew up in a very conservative
time where women were propertyand women were, I say in the
book, women fell into twocategories, property or icky,
because they could be owned.
They had virtually noinheritance rights and
menstruation, ooh, gross. Notpart of God's plan. You're
ritually unclean when thathappens. And if you have a baby

(28:15):
girl, you're ritually uncleanfor twice as long. They found so
many ways to punish women fortheir biology and to make the
menstrual blood that gives allof us life into an unholy, dirty
thing. So Jesus is born intothis world where women aren't
allowed to work, where women areproperty, where divorces, I'm
tired of you get out and if youdidn't have a family to go live

(28:38):
in it was either prostitution orbegging. Okay? It was, it was
the gospel. According to IkeTurner, women could not legally
attend school or be educated.
Jesus is the biggest feminist inthe Bible, and he breaks down
all these taboos, and they don'tteach this to us as kids. So
there were three women that wenteverywhere with Jesus and the

(28:59):
12, Mary Magdalene, Mary andMartha, the sisters of Lazarus.
They were there. Jesus showed upto them when he came back first.
But the men who wrote the Biblesaid, Oh no, no, no, no. 12
Apostles, three groupies,because women aren't counted as
people. When you read Jesusspoke to 500 people, it means he
spoke to 500 men. Women weren'tcounted. Yes, Jesus had female

(29:21):
apostles who deserved to be inthe last supper, and Scorsese
put him in there. By the way, inhis movie, the famous story of
the apostles come over fordinner at Mary and Martha's
house, and Martha's cleaning andMary's learning, and Martha's
all mad and frustrated, andJesus tells Martha to chill out.
As a kid, I was like, I felt badfor Martha. She was doing all
the work for these people. It'slike my mom, but when you

(29:42):
realize what was happening wasMartha was trying to care of
these people, and she was madbecause Mary was breaking the
law in the next room to beeducated, and Jesus was breaking
the law to educate a woman, andshe sat at his feet, which meant
she was the top pupil of therabbi. So what Jesus says when
he. Tells Martha to chill out.
He's not scolding her forcaring. He's saying to her, your

(30:02):
stress isn't helping, but he'ssaying education matters more
for women than housework andcleaning and cooking. That's
what he's saying. And so theyteach us that story when we're
too young to appreciate what itmeans. The bleeding woman Sam
Cooke wrote the great song,touched the hem of His garment,
bleeding 12 years one could fixher. She was ritually unclean
because icky, right? See, here'sJesus. Is there. She walks into

(30:25):
the crowd, touches the hem ofHis garment, and it goes away,
and she's better. Great story.
She was breaking so many laws bygoing out in public. She made
everyone in that crowd rituallyimpure by going into the crowd,
she endangered the souls ofeveryone around her because she
was dirty and menstruating, andwhen she touched Jesus, she made

(30:47):
Jesus ritually impure in theeyes of God, according to their
religion, Jesus turns around andhe says, Daughter, your faith
has healed you. It's the onlytime in Jesus's career he calls
anybody daughter, and he says itto a ritually unclean woman who
just broke all the laws of thereligion to make him unclean.
She violates the taboo, andJesus breaks it for good. I

(31:10):
can't believe these rightwingers pretend they follow this
guy. The whole gospel is, as youknow, is filled with examples of
Jesus breaking down thisappalling treatment of women,
and then Paul rolls in with hishang ups and starts it all up
again. But even Paul, I'm sorry,even Paul, Paul had Phoebe was a
deacon like you, realize Paulwas writing different letters to
different churches who havedifferent propaganda. So in some

(31:33):
he'll be all anti women, andthen some, he'll talk about the
women who saved his life andwere a core part of the
ministry. Again, like today,they'll use bigotry when it
serves

them. There were apostles, women apostles there
in, you know, the end of RomansJunior was there female, you
know, house church leaders, likeall sorts of different things
that were pretty amazing thatwomen were doing. I have a lot
of listeners that want to figureout how to embody Jesus and be
faithful in this world and lookmore like him and not follow the

(32:03):
ways of the world or the ways ofpeople pretending to be like
Jesus.

Oh yes, my favorite. 1996

there's Disney decided to bring out the
Hunchback of Notre Dame, thislittle musical, which for Disney
to come out with this, I thinkis absolutely crazy.

It's a heavy, heavy movie, and it's based a
lot on the Charles Laughtonversion, which is the most
emotionally devastating versionof that story.

It is emotionally devastating. I had
my eight year old come back. Wejust went to Notre Dame in
Paris, so we came home and I waslike, Hey, let's watch this.

Hellfire.
Hellfire. But it reminded myfavorite Disney song is
hellfire.

But it reminded me of today. It reminded me
right now, of people that are incharge, that are authoritarian,
but are using scripture andusing the name of God to commit
atrocities with others. This guyis like, Hey, I'm just gonna
throw, like, kill this woman,and I'm gonna throw this baby
into a well and kill this baby,because it's monstrous looking.

(33:09):
I mean, look,

we just saw a guy in Minnesota murder two
Democrats and try to murder twomore over Christian issues. I
mean, this is terrorism. This iswhat we see with Netanyahu. It's
what we see with Hamas. If Godwanted someone dead, he'd smite
them himself. You're not helpingJehovah here, Allah didn't ask
you to do this.

My question is, is that possible? I mean,
Hunchback of Notre Dame, thatwas many years ago. Victor Hugo
wrote, you know the story aswell, like he's calling out the
same things that are happeningtoday with right wing
fundamentalism. Oh yeah, look atLes Miserables still happening
Les Mis. Look at Les Mis. Yeah,exactly.

Victor Hugo was a deeply spiritual guy. He
didn't get everything right, buthe he got it. And Les Mis is, I
mean, how can you be DonaldTrump and watch that and not
understand the link betweenChristianity and fighting
poverty. I mean, it's literallywhat the whole thing's about.
And, you know? I mean, the wholething is about a guy who steals
a loaf of bread to feed hissister's child, and law

(34:12):
enforcement persecutes him for40 years because he's a criminal
and sinner, and along the way,who saves his life, the priest
recognizes that sin and evilaren't the same thing. So all of
that bleeds in, and it's thegood Christian people who are
terrified of Quasimodo who's themost Christian character in the
whole, in the whole, in thewhole novel

I love after you know, Les Mis was at the Kennedy
Center. Trump was asked, Who doyou resonate more with? Is
Javert or Jean Valjean? And hefigured it out. He was like, I
don't know. What do you thinkMelania, he couldn't figure out
who he resonated more with. AndI think I know who resonated
more with.

Well, look, maybe he saw it on stage. You
know, Javert. Javert is oftenbetter on stage. You know what I
mean? Like in the movie, RussellCrowe couldn't quite I think
should have switched roles withHugh Jackman. But, yeah. Yeah,
yeah, exactly. But I, you know,hunchback is a great I mean, I
can't imagine Disney making thatfilm today. Can you it seems
like their most, the mostliterary thing they've done in

(35:12):
the last 30 years?

Yeah, it's crazy, but it was beautiful. And
I think you know, for me to say,hey, you know this is happening
in our world today, even to showmy eight year old like, hey,
there is a different way that wecould live, and that looks like
Jesus. And I think, you know,you write about immigrants,
refugees here in your book aswell, and I think this is

(35:33):
something that really bothers meas just treatment of immigrants
in this country at the moment,and what's happening the way
that people are deported.
Alligator Alcatraz, all of thisis very disturbing to me and
people using scripture, yeah, tojustify what they're doing.

Not Jesus, though, not Jesus. They can't
use Jesus, right? No, theycan't. No, Jesus commands you to
welcome the stranger. So theseare the anything but Jesus.
Christians and their whole lifeis about finding loopholes to
his inconveniently liberal, wokecommandments.

So, so what did Jesus do? How did he show us
that the foreigner is welcome,that we need to actually treat
the foreigner

well. I mean, Matthew 25 he comes out the
night he's arrested, and hesays, you know, the night of the
Last Supper. And you know,Matthew 25 is Jesus giving his
marching orders. I was astranger, and you fed me. You
know, I was hungry, and you fedme. I mean, Jesus comes out and
says, Look, man, when the worldcomes to an end, I'm going to
gather the individuals andnations. It's called both the

(36:37):
parable of the sheep and goats,but it's also called the
judgment of nations. And Jesussays, I will gather all the
individuals, all the nations.
And he says he's going to judgethem. And he gives them four
criteria, take care of the poor,take care of the sick, be kind
to prisoners, welcome thestranger, and that's it. Jesus
tells us, point blank, directly,individuals and nations will be
judged based on not how muchthey scream at women outside

(37:00):
clinics, not how much theypersecute illegals, not how mean
they are to transgenderchildren, not how much they hate
liberals and Europeans andfeminists, we'll all be judged
by how kind we are, immigrants,criminals and jail, sick people,
poor People. That's it. Soanything you got beyond that

(37:21):
isn't Christian, it's maybeyou're going around him. Now
they'll go all the time withPaul, right? What's the verse
they always use with Paul?
Submit to the governingauthorities. Romans, 13. Okay,
submit to God. I noticed foreight years of Obama and four
years of Biden, these folksdidn't believe in submitting to
the God. But this is what yourlisteners will hear. They cross
the border, it's illegal. Well,y'all support Trump, so don't

(37:44):
ask me to believe you take ourlaws all that seriously. First
off, but again, every time aDemocrat's in office, they
forget about this one. Submit tothe governing authorities. This
was Paul writing to Romans,okay, but Jesus challenges
authority consistently. It'swhat gets him killed. Were Mary
and Joseph submitting togovernment authorities when they

(38:05):
ran away and hid in Egypt tosave their child's life. Jesus,
the whole thing is questioningauthority and standing up to
authority. And if you're sayingthat we have to follow the laws
to persecute poor brown people,but you're indifferent to the
law breaking of this rich,orange person, I don't have to
take your Christianityseriously. What did Jesus say

(38:26):
about it? And these are theanything but Jesus Christians,

I love that you're bringing things back to
Jesus and you're helping people.
It doesn't matter. Like, yeah,just bring it back to Jesus to
say that Christianity should beabout Jesus. Well, make

them debate.
Don't let them argue with you.
Make them argue with Jesus. Makethem argue with God. Make them
argue with Scripture. Godcommands us to never mistreat
the Alien and treat them as ourown. Explain why God is wrong
and Stephen Miller is right,make them fight this book. They

(39:03):
wave around as a prop becausethey don't follow it. They use
it for

power. What are the biggest arguments that
people call in about megaChristians into your show? What
are the biggest arguments theycall in about what are they
really arguing for?

Well, I mean, there's the mega people just
arguing for Trump, and they saythey're Christian, and they say
they're Christian, and theycan't make a Christ based
argument. It's abortion. Andwith the border, again, they
don't know. They don't careabout the help wanted sign at
our border. They don't careabout the white people who lure
these folks across the border.
They don't really know that themajority of undocumented
immigrants are people whooverstayed visas, not people who

(39:38):
cross borders. They don't knowthat there's 50,000 or so
undocumented Irish in thiscountry, and there's no movement
whatsoever to root them out anddeport them. They're not going
after the Irish. They're notgoing after most they're not
going after the Russians.
They're going after the brownfolks. For the president, who's
the only president to have hiredundocumented immigrants.

(40:00):
Reasons, because he didn't wantto pay a living wage to American
workers, and Trump did it in twodifferent centuries. The fact
that they don't go after theemployers is how we all know
it's a racist scam. So I mean,immigration is a big one.
Abortions, obviously the biggestone. Abortion is what the right
wing used to rewire the minds ofAmerican Christians, and it's
why we've had two generations ofpeople saying that putting women

(40:22):
or doctors in jail for ending apregnancy is Christianity. And
yet, when you bring up how Jesusreally was against executing
people, well, they differ withJesus on that. They agree with
Jesus on this thing. Theypretend Jesus said so again,
they don't follow him. So youdon't have to hate them. You're
angry, you don't have to getinto a big, snarling fight. Let
God and Jesus in the Scripturedo some of the heavy lifting for

(40:45):
you, and you can vary in afriendly way. Say, why should I
listen to you instead of theBible? And by the way, you just
think you'll get a lot fartherwith these right wing people by
showing them in the Scripturehow Jesus wasn't an immigrant
hating homophobe than if youjust call your uncle an
immigrant hating homophobe.

So if you talk to people, who do you want to
pick up this book? I know youwant everybody to read your
book. Separation. I'm trying todo

anyone who has ever had to deal with a
Christian nationalist or afundamentalist in your
workplace, in your family, inyour school, in your social
media feed. Anyone who's everhad to deal with a mean
Christian, anyone who's everwatched Fox News and said, Jesus
Christ, these people are theopposite of Jesus Christ. You
know, this is a book about whatChristianity started out as,

(41:31):
what it became, and why it'sstill worth fighting for. I want
the ideal audience for thisbook. I'm sorry. Joshua me, when
I was 17, I wrote a book I wishsomeone had given me when I was
a teenager and didn't understandhow my religion of love could
also be this Falwell religion ofhate and cruelty.

Okay, one thing that you said that is kind of,
it's getting me to a place whereit's worrying me a little bit,
okay, is that I can be I can befaithful. I can take care of the
poor. I could feed, you know,feed the hungry. I could visit
prisoners. I could do thesethings in Matthew 25 but if my
nation's not doing it, there'sjudgment over the nation. How do

(42:10):
we reconcile what our nation isdoing and what we as individuals
do as faithful, just people inthis world to treat people well?

Yeah. See, be part of the solution. Carry the
baton for your time. On Earth,it's all about greater human
rights and greater love for eachother and us learning to take
care of each other before thisworld is controlled by four
billionaires. So Jesus livedunder Roman imperial occupation.
They didn't have democracy. Wedo. We can criticize the rulers.
We can vote to change policy.
Conservative Christians like tosay Jesus said that we should do

(42:44):
this, not the government. No,no. He said individuals and
nations. And this is therationale our right wing
brothers and sisters use toreject the commandments of
Christ in the voting booth. Whatcare for the poor? No, I'm
voting Republican care for thesick. No, I'm voting Republican.
Love your enemy. No, I'm votingRepublican because Jesus said
for me to do it individually, soI'll donate to my church. No,
no, you're doing the anythingbut Jesus loophole. You're

(43:07):
getting around him again thevoting booth. We have this
democracy. So if you want asociety on Earth as it is in
heaven, if you want the kind ofworld that Jesus talked about,
where we care for the poor, carefor the sick, avoid violence,
try to resolve conflict, ratherthan giving in to hate. Treat
women as equals. Warn the richthat it's not going to work out
for then vote for it. Be a partof it with your brief time on

(43:30):
Earth. Don't just go to churchand pray for the people you
know, care about the people youdon't know, and put your body in
the movement. Go to marches,write letters, call people, get
your church to form volunteergroups, build coalitions with
non Christian the atheists andthe Christians going to work
together to fight homelessness.

(43:50):
I mean, there's so much youfighting for greater decency in
your neighborhood. Is youfighting for greater decency in
the United States? It's a rippleeffect. I believe it. I've seen
it. I've seen it. I was a kidAIDS crisis. I mean, look how
far we've come on. Homophobiaand America led the way, and it
happened because of a plague.

Thank you.
There's one thing I'd love todig deep. We don't have time,
but I'd love to dig deep, andthe role of art in this way of
stopping cycles of violence, notjust physical violence, but
violence in every way. I thinkwe have cycles of oppression, we
have cycles of trauma, we haveall sorts of things. And the
role of arts and what you dostage through, either through

(44:35):
like your shows, your one manshows, or through your stand up
comedy, how do you see your roleas a great question to stop
these

cycles. I mean, that's, yeah, that wow. I love
that question. That's that.
That's one of the things that Ican do. You know? I mean, I have
a lot of things I can doprivately and publicly. I can
talk about this stuff, and I cando jokes about it and do
routines about it, and I can. Italk about it on the radio. I
can tour. I can, you know, tryto turn these arguments into
stand up comedy routines withsetups and punch lines and

(45:07):
premises, and make itentertaining. Not just preachy,
although, God knows, I can bepreachy, but art can heal us. We
know it. Art can bring ustogether. We know our and sports
too. By the way, sports canbring us together. But music, I
mean, music can bring ustogether and can bring us into
the divine art can also make itworse. I mean, let's never lose
sight of how much Christianityin America was wounded by having

(45:31):
these blonde haired, blue eyed,white Jesuses in all these
Bibles in the 19th and 20thcenturies. I mean, it associated
divinity with whiteness and allthe internalized racism that
came for non white peoplegrowing up and spending their
lives looking at these Biblesand saying, oh, European, good
looks. That's godly. You know,art can definitely be

(45:52):
destructive. It can damagereligion too, but I'm honored
you would say so, because forme, Billy Wilder said, if you're
going to tell people the truth,make it funny, or they'll kill
you. And as a politicalcomedian, that's sort of been my
guiding principle, because Idon't want to do there's,
there's enough guys doing smartpropaganda better than me. If I
can tack a dick joke onto it,then I've made it amusing and I

(46:13):
can go on stage with it. Sothat's sort of where I come from
on that. But you know, it's Imean, and with religion, I mean
my god, painting, music,literature, there's so much, and
there's so many ways that myspirituality has been deepened
because of art. You know, when Iwas a teenager and I heard
YouTube's cover of WoodyGuthrie's Jesus Christ, and they

(46:33):
did it like a Pogues punkversion, and it was like, wow, I
just unlocked a way of seeingJesus in my faith that I had
never imagined before in onethree minute, you know, rock
song. So I'm a big believer inthat. And I think that, I mean,
obviously, you know, the greatreligions do it as well. Sorry,
but those graven images havegone a long way towards

(46:55):
spreading the messages.

You know, if you could say one thing to people
that are trying to be faithfulto Jesus, that are within the
church today, that they'retrying to embody Jesus, and
there do see some hypocriticalways that the people claiming
the church are acting. Whatwould you say to people that are
trying to embody the ways ofJesus within the church and what

(47:22):
they can do from the inside. Youknow?

I mean, obviously, number one is look
out for yourself. I mean, you'reresponsible for your own soul.
So you don't have to makeyourself a better Christian by
going and, you know, pick andfights with people because
they're mean. You can look outfor yourself and let the idiots
reveal themselves. You don'thave to mess with the idiots and
the mean people and the bigots.
You just you don't have to.
It's, you know, we got to helpthem. We're called to help them.

(47:46):
We're called to try to bringthem into the light. But it's
not our job to save them. Andwhen it comes to election day,
it is our job to beat themwithout hate. So love, you know,
just keep, keep sticking to theteachings of Jesus. Keep loving
and do not be afraid to engagethese right wing Christians and
say, How is this of Christ? Whatdoes Alligator Alley have to do

(48:09):
with anything in the Old or NewTestament? I mean alligator
Alcatraz. I mean theseconcentration camps. You know,
on immigration alone. Onimmigration alone, supporting
the Republican Party isincompatible with the Old and
New Testament period. Abortion,it's not mentioned. We have to
take back the narrative from theright, because most people out

(48:31):
there would be shocked for me tosay that, but yeah, Jesus
doesn't mention abortion,doesn't condemn the gays, never
says a thing against birthcontrol, commands you to welcome
the immigrant. Most Christianswould think I'm blaspheming, but
I'm just I didn't write it.
That's what's there, and theyhave done such a good job
organizing religion of Hood,winking believers into following
their movements and ignoring thegospel, the teachings and the

(48:54):
commandments of Jesus. So I justsay, if your church is telling
you who your enemy is. Insteadof telling you to love your
enemy, you're not really in achurch. And sometimes Jesus's
whole mission is abouttransformation. And sometimes
the most spiritual thing you cando is change your mind about
religion and evolve. That wasJesus's whole message. Sorry,

(49:16):
creationist, but evolve waspretty much what His thing was
all about.

Couple quick questions at the end. One, if
you go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would you
give?

Don't lie to women. It's a good one. Ever.
Don't lie to anybody, but don'tlie to women, especially because
you're insecure. Don't try tomake women think you're
something you're not. Don't tryto make anybody think something
you're not. You are the way youare. Trying to be somebody else
isn't going to do it. Take yourimperfect self and figure out
your path, but trying, trying tobe the person you wish you were,

(49:52):
that can be a way to gettingwhere you want to be. But, uh,
you know, your dream might notbe your destiny, but your dream
will lead you there. But I wouldtell myself. When I was young,
just, you know, work out more,you know, just be physically
stronger to deal with the stressand the anxiety, because this
world will make you

think, yeah, that's true. Anything you've
been reading or watching lately,you could recommend Superman.

James Gunn, Superman is the movie that I
didn't know my heart needed, andAmerica's heart needed. I've
seen it twice. Superman is likeJesus. It's incredibly hard to
make a compelling, interestingfilm about a guy with magical
powers who's perfect. It's justhard to tell an interesting
story about a guy like that.
It's why so many Jesus movieshave a lot of good parts. But
it's hard to tell the story withSuperman. And this new film is

(50:37):
beautiful. I mean, when theSecretary of Defense says to
him, Well, you're an alien, sothe Constitution doesn't apply
to you, how could they haveknown to write that line three
years ago? I think spiritualfolk will find a lot in there
that's extremely that's whatI've seen lately that turned me
on the most spiritually

Well, separation of church and hate is out
everywhere. September 9. You canget it anywhere. Books are sold.
It's a fantastic read. I lovedit. It's funny. It is well
researched, like there's deeptheological themes in there,
even though you're not atheologian. But I know that you
talk to a lot of I talked

to a lot. I got a lot of codes for this. I have
a lot of interview subjectsabove my pay grade in this book.
And your your your audience mayrecognize a lot of the names of
the people I talk to,

yes, yes. They will. Yes, they will. So John,
is there anywhere specific you'dlove to point people to to get
the book or anywhere else? Yeah.

Well, once again, it's called separation of
church and hate a sane Person'sGuide to taking back the Bible
from fundamentalist fascist andflock fleecing frauds. And I
would recommend you buy this atthe local independent bookstore
or the non evil website of yourchoice. But thank you for buying
it, thank you for reading it,and you, if you can do me one

(51:50):
more favor when you're done withit, pass it on to somebody else
who likes the faith of theirfathers but could do without the
meanness that some of ourfathers had implanted in them.

Well, John, it was a privilege to talk to you,
so thank you for coming on. Itwas a fantastic conversation.

Joshua, I'm so honored you would have me. Thank
you and thank your audience.
It's really a joy to be on yourexcellent program. And thanks
for letting me talk so much. You

Unknown (52:20):
you.

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Ep. 341 John Fugelsang - Separation of Church and Hate

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 341 John Fugelsang - Separation of Church and Hate