September 15, 2025 • 51 mins
In this episode, I sit down with acclaimed writer and poet Kathleen Norris to talk about her deeply personal new book, Rebecca Sue. The book tells the story of her sister Becky - born with brain damage at birth - whose life was marked by both difficulty and transformation, humor and resilience. Kathleen shares what it was like to grow up alongside Becky, how storytelling became a way of honoring her full humanity, and why persistence was necessary to bring this book into the world. Along the way, she reflects on grief, community, the role of faith, and the ways we learn to see people not through labels or limitations, but in the fullness of who they are. This is a conversation about love, loss, and the surprising grace that emerges when we pay attention to every story - even the ones we’re tempted to overlook.
Kathleen Norris is the award-winning poet, writer, and author of the New York Times bestselling books The Cloister Walk, Acedia & Me: A Marriage, Monks, and a Writer's Life, Dakota: A Spiritual Geography, Amazing Grace: A Vocabulary of Faith, The Virgin of Bennington, and several volumes of poetry. Exploring the spiritual life, her work is at once intimate and historical, rich in poetry and meditations, brimming with exasperation and reverence, deeply grounded in both nature and spirit, sometimes funny, and often provocative.
Widowed in 2003, Kathleen Norris now divides her time between South Dakota and Honolulu, Hawaii, where she is a member of an Episcopal church. She travels to the mainland regularly to speak to students, medical professionals, social workers, and chaplains at colleges and universities, as well as churches and teaching hospitals. For many years she was the poetry editor of Spirituality & Health magazine. She serves as an editorial advisor for the monthly Give Us This Day from Liturgical Press, and writes for a weekly e-newsletter, Soul Telegram: Movies & Meaning with her friend Irish storyteller Gareth Higgins.
Kathleen's Book:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kathleen Norris (00:00):
You hear someone is disabled, you kind of
(00:02):
dismiss them. You don't want tohear what they have to say, and
you don't want to really get toknow them that you've got a lot
of people just kind of shy away.
But I want Becky. I want peopleto meet Becky in full. You
Unknown (00:20):
Joshua,
Joshua Johnson (00:26):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, today I am
joined by acclaimed poet andwriter Kathleen Norris, her work
has always helped us see thesacred in the ordinary, but in
her new book, Rebecca Sue shetakes us into her own family
(00:50):
story, one shaped by love,difficulty, humor and
transformation. It's the storyof her sister, Becky, who lived
with brain damage from birth andyet became someone
unforgettable, full ofpersonality, resilience and
surprising grace. In thisconversation, Kathleen shares
what it means to see people inthe fullness of their humanity,
not just through labels orlimitations. We talk about
(01:13):
storytelling as a way ofhealing, about the persistence
it takes to bring a book likethis into the world, and about
how community and faith hold usin seasons of grief and loss.
This is an intimate, moving andhopeful conversation, one that
reminds us that every life isworth seeing, every story worth
telling. Here is my conversationwith Kathleen Norris,
(01:39):
Kathleen, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on. Thanks for joining me.
Well, thanks for asking. This isa treat. I'm excited to talk
about Rebecca sue your sister,Becky, and this new book. So
tell me a little bit aboutBecky. Well, Becky was born in
1952
Kathleen Norris (01:57):
and, you know, I had an older brother, and then
myself. I was five years oldwhen she was born. My parents
were both educators, and mymother was very interested in
early childhood education, andfirmly were in kindergarten and
all of that. And from a veryyoung age, I noticed mom was
noticing that Becky was notdeveloping the way most kids do,
(02:20):
like she never learned to crawlthat was physically too
difficult for her. Her speechwas coming along pretty well,
but my mother was observingthese things, and it came from
when Becky was born, my motherwas something like 40 hours in
labor, and they'd given her toomany drugs. It was basically
medical mistakes. So Becky wasborn with what they call
(02:40):
perinatal hypoxia, not enoughoxygen to her brain at a
critical time in the birthcanal. But Becky was just she
was intelligent enough to knowthat that had happened to her,
so right away, she had a moredifficult life than most people,
just with that living with thatburden. Why me that sort of
(03:02):
thing? And in the 50s, ofcourse, the advice was old
doctors just said, oh, youshould just put her away in an
institution. And I'm so gratefulto my parents, because they
talked to us and they said, Doyou think that's a good idea?
What do you think of that? Mybrother and I both said, Well,
that's crazy. She's part of thefamily. This is what, you know,
and Becky was very borderline.
(03:23):
If she had much more severelydisabled, maybe that would have
made sense, but it didn't makeany sense for us. So she just
came up in the family. And yeah,she ended up with a younger
sister who's very sharp and verybright. No problems there at
all. And and so the book isbasically about growing up with
Becky and watching her maturemore slowly than most people,
(03:49):
but turning into really by thetime she died, a really
wonderful person, and she'd beenvery difficult for a lot of her
life, but she really turned intothis marvelous, open, generous
person, and that's part of thebook is about that
transformation that occurred inher later years. It's beautiful
when you get to be able to seesome of that transformation
(04:10):
happen later on, especially whenit's so difficult. So for you,
just as you're entering into therelationship with Becky and your
family, what was it like foryou? How was your relationship
early on with Becky, growing up?
Well, I think it was prettyordinary, because, as I said,
Becky was part of the family. Mybrother and I knew we had to
look out for her, because shewas she lacked common sense
(04:33):
sometimes, and was a little moreaccident prone. But otherwise we
squabbled like any siblings do.
It was just normal. And one ofthe great stories, Becky used to
love to tell the story onherself, because it was
complicated in some ways. When Iwas about 14, I got my first
lipstick, ugly shade of coralthat I just thought was the most
(04:53):
wonderful thing in the world.
And Becky had a good dose ofjealousy in her. She was very
jealous.
Because she was too young for alipstick. I kind of found her.
We lived in navy housing then,because my dad was the band
director out of Pearl Harbor,uh, cement block walls, I found
my sister writing on the cementblock wall with my new lipstick,
and I knew I couldn't hit her, Iwould be in serious trouble. But
(05:15):
I was furious, and I yelled, andmy mother came in to find it,
and Becky just looked at me andsaid, You can't hit me. I'm
retarded. So there was, youknow, she she knew enough about
herself to and her hersituation, to take advantage of
it. And she found out thatreally didn't work for sisters.
I was still pretty mad. Youknow, I wasn't going to hit it.
(05:36):
That that, but you can't hit me.
I'm retarded. I mean that in asense that Becky in a nutshell,
that she knew enough about herproblems and enough to sometimes
take advantage of them, and itbecame issued later on, she
sometimes would have me go toher counselors, her
psychologists that she workedwith, because we had to figure
out what were things that sheknew were Bad, and she did them
(05:58):
anyway, which is definitely sin.
We all who think that what werethings she knew was bad she did
them anyway, and what werethings she couldn't help because
of her disability? And that wasalways a very fluid line, but it
always kept us on our toes asthe rest of the family to figure
that out. And she was justinteresting personality. She had
(06:21):
a big personality, and I reallywanted the book to convey that,
because you hear someone isdisabled, you kind of dismiss
them. You don't want to hearwhat they have to say, and you
don't want to really get to knowthem. That you've got a lot of
people just kind of shy away.
But I want Becky. I want peopleto meet Becky in full at the
very beginning of your book, youtalk a little bit about
handicapped, disability,disabled and trying to not just
(06:44):
see people through theirdisability or handicap, but
actually see people for who theyare, for their full personhood.
How does that help us, when wesee people in their full
humanity, and not just aboutwhat whatever difficulty they
have in life. I think it can betransformative for us and for
(07:07):
the people we're looking at asdisabled. And this isn't in the
book, but I may write about itsomeday. But growing living in a
small town my mom's hometown inwestern South Dakota for years,
taught me a lot about that,because one of the, one of the,
my favorite people in town, wasa paranoid schizophrenic. And
every now and then she would goto the state hospital and get
(07:28):
her medications changed, and butpeople in the town, my I was one
of them. People in the towncould tell when she was off her
meds, because she was yellingabout the Federal Reserve and
the gold standard, and justbeing being literally crazy. But
and when that would happen, I'drun into her in the street, and
I said, Ask her to talk abouther son. And like you could see
the gear shifting, because shewas very proud of her son. It
(07:51):
was very bright young man, andshe had been bright when she was
a young woman. That's a horriblething about a lot of
schizophrenia. It strikes verybright young people, but getting
to know her and understandingthe pain of her condition was a
milestone for me. And of course,most schizophrenics are not
violent people, although Iremember one day I ran into her
(08:15):
in the post office, and she hadpinned a note to her blouse that
said, Go to hell, and I knewthat she didn't mean me, I just
decided to ignore that, and Ithink it was probably addressed
to her husband. But she was acharacter in a way, but getting
to know her, and really, oneday, when she talked about some
of these paranoid delusions shehad, I said to her that must
feel terrible. You must feelterrible. And I could really
(08:38):
empathize, and I I'm so gratefulfor those experiences. Becky was
never schizophrenic. It was justa matter of a lack of oxygen to
the brain at the wrong time. Butshe certainly presented
difficulties for the family,especially when she got into her
late 20s, early 30s, becauseadolescence for someone like
(08:59):
that. In early 20s was a verydifficult period, but just kind
of knowing the full person, Ithink, is what we're called to
do. I think as Christians, andyou look at it, Jesus didn't shy
away from people who wereoutcast and neglected or
dismissed in his society. And Ithink that's that's an important
thing to remember. What do youthink your role as as a writer
(09:21):
and an observer, as somebody cansee other people? How does that
help me, or the people who readyour work, or the people that
you get to talk to, to be ableto see more fully who people
are? How is your role as writerand observer help that. I think
my job is just to tell storiesand to tell them in a way that
(09:44):
people can relate to them nomatter what their own experience
is. They may never have knownsomeone with brain damage, but
tell stories and then let peoplemake of them what they will. I'm
not interested in telling peoplehow to live or what to do.
Do I want them to read a storyand go, oh, oh, well, maybe the
(10:05):
next time I see someone in awheelchair, I'll talk to them,
and not the person who's drivingthe chair, that kind of thing,
so they might change but, butagain, I want them to take it
and run with it related to theirown experience. But I think just
simply a storyteller. I don'tI'm not a philosopher. In fact,
I pretty much flunked philosophyand got sent over to you belong
(10:27):
in the literature department,that kind of thing. But
storytelling is so valuable. Andof course, the great model for
that is Jesus, and it's one ofmy favorite passages in all of
Scripture that when this lawyerwants to know what he can do to
be saved, and he knows the rightanswer, the ancient Jewish
formula, the Shema, that youlove God, love your neighbor,
(10:49):
Love Love your neighbor asyourself, he has all that. But
then he will Who is my neighbor?
And he's a lawyer, he's probablyexpecting a legal definition,
and instead, Jesus says a manwas walking along a road and was
beset by robbers. He tells thestory of the Good Samaritan, you
know, and that, to me, is likethe essence of why writing is so
valuable, because it gives usstories that we can take and run
(11:12):
with, and people should make, insome sense, I actually think the
writer completes my work, I hearsomething often, somebody will
tell me that something I said orwrote what it meant to them, and
I wasn't even aware I was doingit. And that's a real gift. I
think every preacher knows thatyou put something in a sermon,
and somebody will come back andsaid, Oh, this meant so much to
(11:35):
me. I said that well, but that'sthe Holy Spirit, that's the
gift, that's the real gift of ofwriting. You know, this story of
your sister is you're reallyclose to it. It is, it is very,
you know, personal. It'sintimate. It is something that
you have experienced. So how didthe role of you being
(11:55):
storyteller and thenexperiencing the story like
like, early on in your life, didit? Did it shift perspective as
you then started to tell thestory after you've lived it?
Yeah, and I think this book feltimpossible to write for a long
time, because I was close to it.
(12:15):
And how do I do this? Becausegrowing up with Becky and then
living apart from her for a longtime, because I went to college
away from the family, although Isaw the family frequently, but I
was away at college, I wasworking. I didn't see Becky as
much, but then Becky had thewonderful gift of writing stream
of consciousness letters. Sheprobably sent three or four
(12:36):
letters a week to people in thefamily, and I had all of those
letters. Writing is hard toread, but they really were
stream of consciousness, and youcould really tell what was going
on in her mind and stuff. So Ihad all of this material. And
then another grace thathappened, this clinic, Medicaid
clinic that she went to foryears that really saved her
(12:56):
life, did so much for her when Iwas talking to some of the staff
there because they knew I waswanted to write this book. Well,
would you like all of hermedical records? I said, yeah,
all of them, including thedoctor's notes from all of the
emergency room visits she had,she had a lot of physical
problems, as well as the as themental and so having all of
(13:20):
that, and then having to figureout how to use it, how to put it
together. But the book feltimpossible for me for a lot of
reasons at first, but then whenI started looking at all these
materials and my parents lettersto me about her and the
problems, and talking to familymembers as I was progressing
with the manuscript, suddenly Irealized, no, I can do this, I
(13:41):
can tell this story, and it justkept blossoming. And then I got
a wonderful editor at IBP whoreally pushed me hard and got
even more stories out of me,which was a blessing as well.
The whole book, in a sense,feels like a miracle, because I
knew something was up. The firstlittle piece I wrote. It's
(14:01):
simply this tiny thing abouttaking my sister to a Beach Boys
concert in 1962 in Hawaii. Andthat was the first piece I
wrote. This memory just Well Iknew I wanted to write about my
memories of my sister thatwelled up in me. And as soon as
I finished it, I sat theresobbing. Just absolutely fell
apart. And I thought, Oh, dear,this is going to be a journey.
(14:25):
This, this is some somethingsignificant has just broken
through. And then it took aboutanother eight years for me to
really finish it and find apublisher. And because this
book, this manuscript, gotrejected a couple times, so by
people. So finally, it wouldwake me up at three in the
morning, and I could, I couldhear my sister saying, you know,
(14:47):
she was jealous of my when I mybook started to sell and
everyone was talking about mybook, she was quite jealous. She
told me my book, Dakota wasboring, and that was for
reaction, but um, detect theletter that she wrote.
Me about it is in the book,it's, it's really sweet. She
said, One day, well, you shouldwrite a book about me so I can
be famous like you. That feltlike a calling, and at three in
(15:10):
the morning it would wake me up.
But what are you doing about mybook? My book, and I'm thinking,
I really want to write it, but Idon't know how. But I actually
think a lot of books are thisway that it's such a big project
and it takes so long, it's easyto give up, but I've learned not
to. I've learned to justpersist. If a book is important
enough, then I have to stay withit, and I'm really glad I did.
(15:33):
So what does that persistencestart to look like in your life,
and what was this emotionaljourney of that's a that's a
long process of writing thisbook and being immersed in
something that writing, youknow, an essay, of taking your
sister to a Beach Boys concertended up in weeping. You got
what? What was this emotionaljourney like? I knew something
(15:55):
was up, and so I just proceededcarefully, because I just that
was about a year or two aftershe had died, and that spring,
and I just started verygingerly, exploring a few more
memories, and then morememories, of course, started to
come. And I thought I had, I hadabout 300 pages of Finally,
after another year or so, and Isent it off to an editor and an
(16:20):
agent that I'd worked with foryears, and they both just flatly
rejected it. So that was a blowthat was expected blow, because
at least the editor, I thoughtthe thing that really she's
she's still my friend. I toldher, we're not going to lose our
friendship over a stupid bookmanuscript, but because I've
known her for a long, long time,but the heart, the thing that
was hardest was that she wasn'teven willing to take it on and
(16:42):
work with me, because I knew thebook needed work. You know,
that's what wanted her to seeit, because she's She, she, she
was the editor for Dakota andpleasure walk and amazing grace
and the Virgin of Bennington.
She was a wonderful, wonderfuleditor, but she wasn't even
willing to take it on. And thatwas like, Oh, dear. What do I do
now? And that sort of and thenthe agent just said, why don't
(17:05):
you write about something else?
And I'm going, Oh, I mean,again, I just felt kind of lost
for a while. Book went on theback burner. I did try to write
about something else, which mayor may not, I think I and we'll
end up with another manuscriptwithin the next year, but, but
that was a terrible, terribleexperience and humbling, and,
you know, and all of that, and,but that book, but Beck, I call
(17:30):
it Becky's book. Becky's bookher voice, you know, write a
book about me that just keptwaking me up in the morning in
the middle of a good sleep. AndI say, Yeah, I think I really do
have to do this. And finally Isaid, Okay, I'm just going to
find another editor, anotheragent, and go from there. I'm
too old to wait around, and I'mso grateful that I did. It just
(17:50):
was a decision that that Ineeded to dust this book off,
see what I had, what I needed tochange, and then send it off
again, and it was wonderful.
Early on, I know that yourparents had a little guilt on
even the hospital experiencearound Becky and what happened
(18:11):
with the hospital experience herbirth and the lack of oxygen to
her brain. How did your parentsdeal with that guilt? And how do
you think that some of thatguilt affected the family
growing up as well. I don't knowthat it affected the family a
lot. It made my dadoverprotective, because he was
one that I think the decisionhad been made because he was in
(18:33):
the Navy. He when Becky wasborn, he was an assistant
conductor and orchestrator forthe Navy Band in Washington, DC,
and I don't know what all wentinto this decision. I remember
vaguely hearing them talk aboutthis, but they decided not to go
to a private hospital, but tohave Becky go mom went to the
(18:53):
Navy Naval Hospital at Bethesda.
And I mean, Navy doctors can bewonderful, but sometimes they're
just putting in their time,their service, and all that kind
of stuff. So you get a real mix.
And my dad always felt that ifthey had gone to a private
hospital, what happened to mymom and what happened to Becky
wouldn't have happened. So hehad whether or not that's true,
I don't know, but that's how hefelt about it, and that was a
(19:17):
load of guilt for him. My momwas much more stoic and just
accepting, I think. And she wasa teacher. She taught small
children, so she she understoodBecky very well, and understood
what she could do what shecouldn't do, you know? And I
(19:37):
don't know that, and I know she,she had that horrible experience
of giving birth. She might havefelt some guilt about that, but
she knew it really wasn't herfault. She'd been given too many
drugs. Really, she'd given birthbefore to my brother and me, so
she knew things weren't right,and she actually heard a doctor
say, one doctor say to theother, you got yourself into
(19:58):
this mess. Let's see you getyourself.
Unknown (20:00):
Out
Kathleen Norris (20:01):
that was really a horrible experience for her. I
don't think she had a lot ofguilt about it. She wished,
obviously, wish things had beenbetter, and we all sort of dealt
with that. What if question withBecky and my, one of my dad's
comments, and Becky actuallylaughed at this, Becky, you
know, if, if you had, if she hadbeen more severely damaged,
(20:22):
brain damaged, then it mighthave made sense to put her in an
institution. If she'd been justa little less brain damaged, we
could get her elected toCongress, and Becky got the
joke. That was my dad. I mean,he had that crazy sense of
humor, and so we all knew thatthere were a lot of things she
could do, a lot of things shecouldn't do. And the thing that
(20:44):
we both shared, and Becky and Iused to love to talk about all
the things we had in common, andone of them was math anxiety.
Becky was in terms of numeracy.
Becky would that's probablywhere the brain damage really
was, because she could, youcould hand her a $1 bill or a
$20 bill, and she would not beable to know that there was a
difference. Now I I'm not thatbad, but Becky, that was really
probably that part of the brainwas what had really been
(21:07):
damaged. So we had to look outfor her in that way. But
otherwise, you know, as kidsespecially, we just played in
the backyard and had a dog and,you know, did, did pretty normal
kids stuff. Squabbled a lot, ofcourse, and parents had to step
in and make peace. You know,where do you think the
(21:27):
transformation came later on inher life? And why do you think
that there was a shift and achange in Becky? Well, part of,
part of it probably was dealingwith some really serious
illness, and because my betagain, Becky's life was so
unfortunate in so many ways, shegot breast cancer. Now she
(21:48):
discovered it herself. She didbreast self examination. She was
aware that of the danger. Shefound this lump, and she told
her doctor she needed to getexamined. And it was breast
cancer. This wonderful doctor ata Medicaid clinic got her, got
her into a very good women'sprogram for that, she told my
parents, you know this girl,this this young woman, is
falling through the cracks somany times in her life, I'm not
(22:10):
going to let it happen. So Beckygot very good care for her
breast cancer, and she survived10 year survival. About 10 or 12
years after she had the breastcancer, she got esophageal
cancer, and that is what killedher. And with totally unrelated
The doctor said that two cancersare just probably not related at
all. They could not see anyrelation. But having to deal
(22:33):
with serious illness and beingin cancer wards, I've been in
cancer wards, not only withBecky, but also with my husband,
that kind of changes yourperspective on things. You know,
you see people dealing with somereally serious issues and all of
that. And the remarkable thingwith Becky was that it made her
(22:53):
less self centered. And Iremember this, the story is in
the book that one of theoncology nurses that just adored
her said, Oh, your sister's soselfless. And I'm going, Wow,
that's a change, because, like alot of damaged, wounded people,
neuroses and self centerednessbecome their defense mechanism.
(23:16):
That aced that for years, shewas extremely self absorbed,
pretty neurotic, but we allunderstood this was her defense
against people calling her slowand stupid and retarded and
treating her badly. And itworked for years, and then
suddenly it was gone. And it wasamazing to see in the cancer
world, there's quite a bit aboutthat when she would go there,
(23:39):
because a lot of people, whenthey're in, you know, getting
chemotherapy and things likethat, they're angry, and they
take it out on the nurses, andthey're they're afraid. Becky
was just she treated it like itwas a social encounter. She
talked to the nurse. Well, howlong have you been doing this?
What drew you to this kind ofwork? Do you have any kids? How
old are they? She treated itlike a social occasion, and she
(24:00):
looked forward to going and theonly person I've ever known and
looked forward to going tochemo. I mean, it's just
incredible. But this interest inother people, which my dad
always had, it was like mysister sort of adopted more of
my dad's personality, but thatself centeredness, that there's
a story I tell in the book, itwas pretty overwhelming for a
(24:21):
while,and Becky lacked the filter to
hide it the way most people do.
So I remember there was oneoccasion I was taking her to a
movies, which I did a lot,because she loved movies, and
we're I'm trying to tell hersomething really significant
that had happened to me,something really important. And
(24:41):
she said, No, I go first. Mystory is more important than
yours. And by then, I knew notto laugh. This was curious. I
just okay, Becky, what is it?
And it was the usual thing aboutsome roommate in the group home,
and just, you know, her usualranting about something. And I
eventually tell my story. But.
My star is more important thanyours. And you go, yeah, a lot
(25:03):
of people feel that way, butthey're not going to admit it.
And there's Becky right there,just, you know, you could count
on her,you know, to do that. And I
remember our mother's funeral, Igot up to give a eulogy, and
Becky tugged at my dress andsaid, Don't mess this up. Okay?
And then I when I came back andsat down, I said, Well, how'd I
(25:25):
do you were okay? I mean, shewas just such a character, but
honest in a way, and it's soeven when she was at her worst,
in terms of the narcissism, itwas so transparent, you couldn't
really be upset with her,because that really was a very
good defense mechanism. And I'veknown other very narcissistic
(25:47):
people, and I always think Iwant to know what's behind this.
Why are they this way? Becausethey must have some pretty deep
wounds that they're they'redealing with, and I saw that
with my sister, but yeah, thetransformation in the last, I
guess, five years of her lifewas just extraordinary, and it
was so much fun to write aboutthat. And I don't not just using
(26:09):
my own words, I'm using thewords of that nurse and some
other people who knew her andabsolutely adored her, and she
left it up, of course, but herearly childhood was really
difficult because Special Edwasn't very well developed,
especially in Hawaii. And, youknow, she was rejected just over
and over and over by her peers,by teachers, even the one
(26:30):
teacher she didn't know what todo with her special ed students,
so she had them clean theclassroom. I mean, not good, but
Becky always had the family. Thefamily was the one place she
knew she belonged. She wasloved. You know, Home Base was
very, very important to her,yeah, and so how do we find
that? Let's take this intohumanity. I think a lot of us
(26:53):
wear a facade that we have ourown defense mechanisms. We have
masks on. We don't actuallyportray our true selves the
world because we're afraid ofgetting hurt or we're afraid of
something. How do we show ourtrue selves? How do we become
the people within a community sothat we can know that there is
(27:14):
some love and acceptance withincommunity and with one another.
What does that look like for usto do that? Yeah, I think the
word fear. I think that is atthe heart of it, that you know,
everyone's experiencedrejection, and you're afraid of
experiencing more rejection, soyou do things that, in fact,
(27:36):
will make sure that you'rerejected because you anti social
behavior, destructive behavior,or self destructive behavior.
But I think fear is often at atthe heart of it, and that's why
I think having a community,having a family as a home base,
where where there's totalacceptance my mother and father,
unconditional love, you know,beautiful example that, and like
(27:59):
my dad said, We about Becky. Hesaid we learn a lot about love
from her, because sometimes itwas hard to love her, but, but
we but that was rock bottom. Ithink church communities often
will provide that for people.
And even if you have a job thatyou love and you're working in a
(28:19):
little office with a bunch ofother people that you know and
trust. Anything that can canhelp alleviate those kinds of
fears. Often jobs, there's a lotof competition, then it's a very
negative atmosphere, but, but Ihad the good fortune to be in an
office of like, four or fivewomen when I first sourced out
of college, and they were allmother hands. It was wonderful.
(28:40):
You know you can find, we canfind these, these communities,
and make our own communities andsense, make our own families
that help us deal because you'realways going to get rejection.
You're always going to getcriticized for this or that or
the other. And it's just knowingthat there is that home base,
there's at least a few peoplewho know me. They love me
(29:03):
anyway. That's that's essential.
Walking through the loss ofBecky, walking through the loss
of your husband. What does itlook like for you to deal with
losses, deal with the grief, andthen continue to say, I need
community. I want to findcommunity and and be intentional
about being with others. Yeah,and I was caregiving, really,
(29:24):
for my husband a great deal, tosome extent, to my parents,
although they had, they hadassisted living available in
their last years. And then forBecky. And I remember my dad
died in 2002 and then myhusband, just a year later, it
was only 57 had enough medicalhistory for a lot of people. And
he's, he's a little bit in thisbook. I wrote more about him in
the book on acedia, but and thenmy mom died in 2009 and Becky in
(29:47):
2013 so that was all of asudden. I didn't, I didn't have
any caregiving duties anymore,which was very strange, because
I've been doing it for a longtime.
Hmm, and so I had to think aboutthat, and being in a prayer
chain at my church, was in mychurch congregation for
(30:08):
confidential prayers, thatpeople brought confidential
prayers, and we would meet oncea month, that was an important
form of community for me thatreally helped deal with that odd
period, because we I was caring,it was just through prayer, and
then sometimes from action.
There was, we had an elderlymember that needed help to get
to, uh, attendance with cancertreatment. I didn't have a car.
(30:30):
I don't drive so, but she was inour prayer group, and we said,
we're not going to let you gothrough this alone. And I had a
friend who had a car, and so wepeople just, just signed up to
take her once, a bunch of peoplewould take her once a week. This
was the church community doingthose kinds of things. And there
were other instances of that,that, and that's one of the
gifts, I think, of churchcommunities, is that people will
(30:51):
step up to help provide whenthere's a need and it's it's
beautiful. It's beautiful to seethat, and the other real. It's
odd because these peoplecouldn't, in some ways, couldn't
be more different from me. Butone of my other big, main
communities is Benedictinemonks, two communities, one in
North Dakota and one inMinnesota, St John's, I teach
(31:16):
there at their School ofTheology. The last couple of
years for a week in the summer,inevitably, when I show up at St
John's or assumption Abbey, amonk will come up to me, give me
a hug and say, Welcome home. Itmakes no sense at all, but it
feels that way and and whatobserving how they do community
is really something, becausethey live with each other, day
(31:39):
in, day out. They know you cantell, even I've been places long
enough, you can tell who'swalking down the hall by the
sound of the footsteps. I mean,it's very, very intimate. And
they just, they're there foryou. I just had two friends who
celebrated 50 years as monks toSaint Benedict on the July 11,
and I was online watching, and Iwas celebrating with them. I was
(32:01):
so happy to see that they'rewonderful, wonderful, very
different men, but, but they'rewonderful guys and and I
consider them real friends. Andso that's the community I can
turn to. In fact, my family,even my sister, who doesn't
think too highly of church stuffwhen there's a big need in her
life. She said, Get your monkfriends to pray for me. And
(32:23):
that's what Becky. Becky didn'tquite understand when I was
going to monastery. That was analien concept, but when she
found out that these are peoplewho pray a lot, oh, well, then
ask them to pray for me, thatthat that was her connection
with them. And I showed her somepictures of them. She said,
these are good looking guys. Isaid, Yes, I know the fact that
they were playing for her thatmeant a great deal. So as you
(32:46):
continue to work on thismanuscript, work on this book,
Rebecca Sue, what was the storythat you wrote down that really
moved you while you were writingit? Oh, there were so many, but
one that just came out of theblue. It was fairly late in the
process. In terms of writing,one of the things that happened
(33:07):
with this book is I had to take20,000 words out of the
manuscript because the editor,Cindy, Cindy bunch had IVP and I
both agreed there was too muchfamily detail, especially in the
early things. It was starting toSOG bog down. And okay, that
story can I'm really good atthis if I because this, I think
starting out as a poet reallyhelps, because I can pare down
really pretty easily. And so ittook a long time, but, but we
(33:32):
were both very happy with how itcame out. And I was very happy
for Cindy's pushing me on this20,000 words. So that was a big
deal. But there were a few, afew things that got added
towards the end of the process.
And I think the one that shockedme the most and made me weep
again, was when I connect. Irealized that my sister had a
(33:55):
connection with the story ofMary of Egypt, who is not well
known in the Western Church, butshe's a saint in the Eastern
Orthodox Church. And it's aWild, Wonderful, one of these
crazy, wild stories from theearly desert of this woman who
had been sexually promiscuousand, you know, and and lived a
(34:15):
very dissolute life, and thensuddenly turning completely
around, because the Virgin Marybasically told her to get go to
desert and straighten out. Butshe did. There's just the
wonderful story this monk whohe's gone to the desert to
meditate and everything, and hesees this creature that he's not
(34:35):
even sure it's human. She'sMary. Mary has been out in the
desert. He thinks it might be awild beast, and he approaches
her and identifies himself as amonk, and even though she had
this illiterate had no educationin Scripture at all, she's
quoting scripture to him. She'squoted saying things like the
(34:55):
Lord's Prayer. So he realizesthat this is a holy woman who
has received.
Receive this gift from God, andjust, and it's a there's a lot
of genre. There's whole genre ofstories like that, of monks who
find holy women who make themrealize, Wow, I'm a pretty good
monk, but this woman is reallygot the Holy Spirit in her. I
(35:16):
mean, there's some reallywonderful stories, and this is
one of the best ones. So he kepthe visited her off and on, and
then finally, when he when shecomes out one time and she's
dead, and he buries her,although that the legend is that
lions helped to bury her. Imean, you know, these stories
are just so, so terrific ofsomeone who's one with nature,
in a sense that the lion comehelp the monk bury this woman
(35:38):
and my sister, because she wasbipolar, had that thing, I think
doctors call it hypersexualityin her 30s. So she went through
a lot of really scary sexualmisadventures. It's, it's a
miracle that she came throughthem. And when I realized that
my sister's story mirrored Maryof Egypt's in, in some ways not
(36:00):
identical, of course, but insome ways that here's this woman
who's been through all of thisbad behavior and suddenly is
turned around. You know, I said,Oh, my God, that's yeah, this
woke this works and so And myeditor was thrilled. She really
loved that connection. And I didtoo. And I again, that was one
(36:23):
of the stories. When I realizedthat that there was a connection
with Mary of Egypt, I just lost.
I just because I'd beeninterested in Mary of Egypt for
years, but never had connectedmy sister's story with her. And
when I did again, I broke downweeping. I thought, Oh, wow,
this is big help. I write aboutit, and I pushed through and I
(36:44):
was able to write a littlesomething.
What else have you learnedrecently that have stuck with
you from the Desert Fathers andmothers? Oh, in fact, that's
probably going to be the subjectof my next book, because it's
such an amazing literature theyleft behind stories. A lot of
them have never even beentranslated yet, from Coptic and
(37:06):
Greek and Syriac and thoseancient languages. But the ones
that have been translated,there's a whole literature, and
most Christians and most eveneducated people really don't
know about them, partly becausethe stories really weren't
available in English until aboutthe late 70s. That's when they
Benedict award a Scholar atOxford, a nun. She's a sister,
(37:29):
but she she published probablythe first really popular
edition. Thomas Merton did somethings with them, but I remember
discovering them and thinking,this is a whole undercover the
root at the tap root ofChristianity, before any
divisions in the church. Thesepeople are there, and their
wisdom is just universal. It'sgood psychology. Get away from
(37:52):
any man who argues every time hetalks. That's good advice. When
they're full of these stories,the stories are very zen, like,
in some ways, the master pupil,you know, teachings that they
left us. But it's this wonderfulliterature. And my husband was
well educated by the Jesuits,but he really didn't know much
(38:13):
about them. And was stunned,because he thought of himself as
really well educated, and hewas, but that whole thing with
the Desert Fathers and mothers.
They lived from the second toabout the sixth century in the
Middle East, basically Egypt,Syria, Turkey, and they produced
these stories that eventuallywere written down. It's oral
literature, which makes it veryimmediate, and it's good
(38:35):
technology, it's goodpsychology. And finding them was
just so wonderful. And so thatprobably the subject of my next
book, because I want there'sbeen a lot more scholarship
about them, and so I've dependedon scholars that people think of
them as all hermits, and theyweren't. They weren't nearly as
isolated as people think theywere. They were they had a lot
(38:57):
of business with townspeople andcamel drivers coming in to pick
up the baskets they woke to selland things like that. They they
had a lot of interaction withother people in this society,
and they were just treated well.
Here's the holy man who livesoutside our village, and you go
to him if you've got problems,that kind of thing. And so
(39:18):
they're really interesting. Andthe literature. It's men and
women. The literature is justoutstanding and very
contemporary, in a way. Andthat's what I'm that's what the
new book. It's, it's still inthe manuscript form. And when I
sometimes I read it and I think,well, it's, it's pretty good,
and other times I think, oh mygosh, it's best. We're going to
find another editor and we'regoing to work with them right
(39:41):
now. I'm just so thrilled tofinally have Rebecca sue in hand
as a book. It just really doesstrike me as a miracle, because
it went it, it was in limbo. Iwould call it sort of in limbo
for a good 10 years before Ifinally said I have to.
Get I have to get back to it. Sowhat do you hope for your
(40:03):
readers of Rebecca Sue, thismiracle of a book that you have
well to meet a person that youprobably wouldn't meet in your
ordinary circumstances of yourlife, someone who's brain
damaged, has a great, crazysense of humor, a wild
personality, difficult person,but really worth knowing, and me
(40:27):
introducing her and introducing,you know, some of my family too,
because we were all charactersin this book, including my
sister in law and some of my myfamily. Had a three generation
household in Honolulu, so for along time, I had my parents, my
brother, his wife, their twolittle girls, my sister, her
husband and their two kids, allin great big house, and Becky
(40:49):
was living there for quite awhile with them. So they grew up
with her. So you get to meet,you get to meet the cast of
characters. And then finally, asBecky developed into her 30s,
social workers said, you know,unless she moves out of the
home, she will never mature.
She'll never have to learn howto live with other people. And
so that she was she would stillcome over very frequently. When
she was still healthy. She couldtake the bus to visit the
(41:12):
family, or we'd go pick her upand take her to movies or take
her out to lunch or whatever. Soshe was still part of the
family, but for a long time. Imean, when I talk about the
family being the kind of thehome, the home the central for
her, that's it's very much inthe book, you really get a
portrait of a family. I hadGareth Higgins on last year to
talking about your book a wholelife in 12 movies, and you're
(41:36):
still writing a weeklynewsletter around movies with
with Gareth Higgins, so I'd beMiss to say, What have you been
watching lately that is reallystood out for you? I just, I
just like, I just have beenworking on an essay, but we
alternate essays each Gareth hasan essay on the new Superman
(41:57):
film this week, and I have athree things I'm thinking about,
some things about profit motivethat I found in The Economist
stories. So in I think one of mynext three things Colin will be
about a book I'm reading aboutthe early monks. In fact, my
next week's essay will be abouttwo really terrific series that
I found, and I don't like tobinge watch but I couldn't help
(42:19):
it with these two. One of themis called the survivors. It's an
Australian series set in a smalltown in Tasmania, so it's a
really interesting locale andand basically, it's ordinary
people. There's nothingsupernatural. They're not
superheroes. They're justordinary people in a small town
dealing with some tragedy andsecrets and things. And it's
just beautifully done. It's justso well done. Called the
(42:41):
survivors. Then the other thingI saw I
was I like Michael Connelly'smysteries, kind of hard police
murder mysteries, and set in LosAngeles. This is about one of
the characters he invented, awoman named Ballard, Detective
Ballard, and it's calledBallard, and it's a 10 show
(43:03):
series about she's been demotedat the police department for a
number of reasons, partlybecause she's a woman, but and a
feisty woman at that, but she'srunning a cold cases, and a lot
of people are Looking down onthis. But what two things really
struck me about that series? Imean, it's obviously a police
(43:24):
procedural, but one of the realthemes of the of the series is
compassion, that he and this onetired policeman who's
volunteering to help her withcases, they take this case that
no one wants, that people makefun of them because it's just a
guy who's probably anundocumented alien, and he was
killed and and nobody cares, butthey have a video of him
(43:46):
carrying a baby the last timehe's seen he's carrying a baby,
and they want to solve the caseso they can find out what
happened to that child. Sothere's real compassion there.
And the other thing iscompassion for women who've been
assaulted, and it's reallystriking. So that's the theme.
That's the theme of of my essaywas called binging on
(44:07):
compassion, because both ofthose stories really had
compassion for ordinary peopledealing with very difficult
situations and and they bothhave elements of a police
procedural, but there's so muchmore than that. And there's not
a lot of silly action,certainly, certainly not in
Tasmania. But, you know, actionlike guns and explosions and car
(44:27):
chases and stuff like that. It'spretty minimal in the Los
Angeles series. So that thatreally struck me, that something
I wanted to write about, but Ifind so many interesting things.
I found a woman who, in theteens and early 20s, was more
famous as a director than CecilB DeMille, named Lois Weber, and
(44:48):
her stuff's available forstreaming and on YouTube. So I
did it. I did two Book Two, shewas quite prolific as a
director, and so I did two.
Essays on her, I found Iraniancinema, which has to be one of
the wonders of the world, wherethese kept getting put in prison
and hassled by the government,and they forbidden to make
(45:12):
films, and then they kept makingthem anyway. And they're
wonderful movies, and they'remostly available for streaming.
So I mean, I just it's been awhole Gareth. I owe I owe a lot
to Gareth because he kind ofopened up. I've always loved
movies, but I never reallywritten about them before. And
when we started this littleweekly soul Telegram, this
weekly thing on substack, it'sbeen just so much fun, because
(45:35):
it I do, and I do have to sitthrough a lot of junk, but as I
say in the book, Becky nearlyliked all kinds of movies, so I
used to sit for a lot of badmovies with her. So I kind of, I
know what that but I'm alwaysreally grateful to find
something that that really is istranscendent, that really
transcends the genre and reallymakes you stop and think about
(45:56):
life and and you can find themin amazing places. I mean, I
thought an LA detective storywouldn't, wouldn't do that for
me, but it did beautiful.
There's, you know, one questionI like to ask at the end is, if
you could go back to your 21year old self, Kathleen, what
advice would you give? Slowdown, be more careful about who
you're hanging out with. BecauseI was in New York City, and I
(46:19):
had that wonderful nest of womenthat I was working with at the
Academy of American poets, thesemother hens. I was also on the
on the edge of the, like theAndrew Warhol scene, with other
writers and people, a lot ofwhom were doing really serious
drugs, which scared the hell outof me, literally. So I mean, I
didn't do that because I justfound that too scary. But just
(46:40):
kind of slow down, look whereyou are and where do you want to
go and and one of the things forme, and I this is one of my bet,
my sister being firmly inangels, and I kind of do too,
but certainly the Holy Spirit,because there's no reason I
really survived all that. Andone of the great ironic things
(47:01):
is that I was living inManhattan, there are churches on
just about every street cornerin Manhattan. It never occurred
to me to go into one wasliterature had sort of replaced
religion. For me, it's aspiritual pursuit. So that made
some sense, and it worked for awhile. Worked until I was kind
of in my mid 30s and and then itjust no longer worked that way
(47:23):
anymore. And I did go back tochurch, and I sort of
reconnected with the faith of mychildhood. But, yeah, it's just
crazy. And there was one churchthat had been in my neighborhood
that I'd been interested ingoing to, partly just the
architecture, was called Churchof angels, of all things on West
End Avenue. By that time I gotback, that beautiful church had
been destroyed.
(47:47):
I was terrified. I was justhorrified. But I went up to find
them, and they were on a secondfloor of a nondescript building.
And they had, they said, thecongregation had got one of
those beautiful 19th centurybuildings that they couldn't
keep going, and the congregationwas dwindling when they and they
a lot of their woodwork fromthat church ended up in the
(48:08):
Metropolitan Museum of Art. Soyou still visit some angels and
the pulpit and some beautifulthings, but they started doing
really kind of a street cornerministry the second floor of
this nondescript kind ofbuilding. They got known for
doing a lot of charitable workin their congregation group, and
I had a one time visiting withthem. So it's a wonderful story,
(48:29):
but when I was in my 20s, theidea of going to church, I
wasn't rebelling againstanything. I had just drifted
away and writing made a goodsubstitute, until it didn't. And
so, yeah, I would probably say,slow down. Maybe go inside one
of those churches and see what'sin there. Well, Rebecca Sue is
going to be available inSeptember, and you can get that
(48:53):
anywhere books are sold. Isthere anywhere particular that
you'd like to point people to toget Rebecca Sue or any other
work, or is there anywhere elseyou'd like to point people to?
Well, I think if you can, ifthere's an independent bookstore
in your area or a good Barnesand Noble, try that Amazon were
Israeli convenient, but I'd muchrather have people support their
independent bookstores. And onegood thing Barnes and Noble has
(49:15):
been doing, they have beenbuying some really great
independent bookstores, like thetattered cover in Denver, and
they're keeping their name.
They're they keep they're goingto help keep them going. And so
there may not be quite asindependent as they were, but
they're not going to close. AndBarnes and Noble, apparently has
been doing that around thecountry. So I would recommend
either Barnes and Noble or yourlocal independent store for
(49:40):
books, great. Well, Kathleen,thank you so much for this
conversation. What a joy and aprivilege to be able to talk
with you and talk with you aboutBecky, to see who she was and to
meet her through you and yourwords, your your story, your
book, is just beautiful and.
Joshua Johnson (50:00):
Is beautifully written. And so thank you for
for the work that you put in formany years to be able to do that
and give us this story, so thatyour family doesn't just get to
meet Becky. We all get to meetBecky, and we could learn
through her story and yourstory. So thank you. It was a
fantastic conversation. Well,thank you. Thank you very much.
(50:20):
You
Unknown (50:35):
you.
You hear someone is disabled, you kind of
(00:02):
dismiss them. You don't want tohear what they have to say, and
you don't want to really get toknow them that you've got a lot
of people just kind of shy away.
But I want Becky. I want peopleto meet Becky in full. You
Unknown (00:20):
Joshua,
Joshua Johnson (00:26):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, today I am
joined by acclaimed poet andwriter Kathleen Norris, her work
has always helped us see thesacred in the ordinary, but in
her new book, Rebecca Sue shetakes us into her own family
(00:50):
story, one shaped by love,difficulty, humor and
transformation. It's the storyof her sister, Becky, who lived
with brain damage from birth andyet became someone
unforgettable, full ofpersonality, resilience and
surprising grace. In thisconversation, Kathleen shares
what it means to see people inthe fullness of their humanity,
not just through labels orlimitations. We talk about
(01:13):
storytelling as a way ofhealing, about the persistence
it takes to bring a book likethis into the world, and about
how community and faith hold usin seasons of grief and loss.
This is an intimate, moving andhopeful conversation, one that
reminds us that every life isworth seeing, every story worth
telling. Here is my conversationwith Kathleen Norris,
(01:39):
Kathleen, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on. Thanks for joining me.
Well, thanks for asking. This isa treat. I'm excited to talk
about Rebecca sue your sister,Becky, and this new book. So
tell me a little bit aboutBecky. Well, Becky was born in
1952
Kathleen Norris (01:57):
and, you know, I had an older brother, and then
myself. I was five years oldwhen she was born. My parents
were both educators, and mymother was very interested in
early childhood education, andfirmly were in kindergarten and
all of that. And from a veryyoung age, I noticed mom was
noticing that Becky was notdeveloping the way most kids do,
(02:20):
like she never learned to crawlthat was physically too
difficult for her. Her speechwas coming along pretty well,
but my mother was observingthese things, and it came from
when Becky was born, my motherwas something like 40 hours in
labor, and they'd given her toomany drugs. It was basically
medical mistakes. So Becky wasborn with what they call
(02:40):
perinatal hypoxia, not enoughoxygen to her brain at a
critical time in the birthcanal. But Becky was just she
was intelligent enough to knowthat that had happened to her,
so right away, she had a moredifficult life than most people,
just with that living with thatburden. Why me that sort of
(03:02):
thing? And in the 50s, ofcourse, the advice was old
doctors just said, oh, youshould just put her away in an
institution. And I'm so gratefulto my parents, because they
talked to us and they said, Doyou think that's a good idea?
What do you think of that? Mybrother and I both said, Well,
that's crazy. She's part of thefamily. This is what, you know,
and Becky was very borderline.
(03:23):
If she had much more severelydisabled, maybe that would have
made sense, but it didn't makeany sense for us. So she just
came up in the family. And yeah,she ended up with a younger
sister who's very sharp and verybright. No problems there at
all. And and so the book isbasically about growing up with
Becky and watching her maturemore slowly than most people,
(03:49):
but turning into really by thetime she died, a really
wonderful person, and she'd beenvery difficult for a lot of her
life, but she really turned intothis marvelous, open, generous
person, and that's part of thebook is about that
transformation that occurred inher later years. It's beautiful
when you get to be able to seesome of that transformation
(04:10):
happen later on, especially whenit's so difficult. So for you,
just as you're entering into therelationship with Becky and your
family, what was it like foryou? How was your relationship
early on with Becky, growing up?
Well, I think it was prettyordinary, because, as I said,
Becky was part of the family. Mybrother and I knew we had to
look out for her, because shewas she lacked common sense
(04:33):
sometimes, and was a little moreaccident prone. But otherwise we
squabbled like any siblings do.
It was just normal. And one ofthe great stories, Becky used to
love to tell the story onherself, because it was
complicated in some ways. When Iwas about 14, I got my first
lipstick, ugly shade of coralthat I just thought was the most
(04:53):
wonderful thing in the world.
And Becky had a good dose ofjealousy in her. She was very
jealous.
Because she was too young for alipstick. I kind of found her.
We lived in navy housing then,because my dad was the band
director out of Pearl Harbor,uh, cement block walls, I found
my sister writing on the cementblock wall with my new lipstick,
and I knew I couldn't hit her, Iwould be in serious trouble. But
(05:15):
I was furious, and I yelled, andmy mother came in to find it,
and Becky just looked at me andsaid, You can't hit me. I'm
retarded. So there was, youknow, she she knew enough about
herself to and her hersituation, to take advantage of
it. And she found out thatreally didn't work for sisters.
I was still pretty mad. Youknow, I wasn't going to hit it.
(05:36):
That that, but you can't hit me.
I'm retarded. I mean that in asense that Becky in a nutshell,
that she knew enough about herproblems and enough to sometimes
take advantage of them, and itbecame issued later on, she
sometimes would have me go toher counselors, her
psychologists that she workedwith, because we had to figure
out what were things that sheknew were Bad, and she did them
(05:58):
anyway, which is definitely sin.
We all who think that what werethings she knew was bad she did
them anyway, and what werethings she couldn't help because
of her disability? And that wasalways a very fluid line, but it
always kept us on our toes asthe rest of the family to figure
that out. And she was justinteresting personality. She had
(06:21):
a big personality, and I reallywanted the book to convey that,
because you hear someone isdisabled, you kind of dismiss
them. You don't want to hearwhat they have to say, and you
don't want to really get to knowthem. That you've got a lot of
people just kind of shy away.
But I want Becky. I want peopleto meet Becky in full at the
very beginning of your book, youtalk a little bit about
handicapped, disability,disabled and trying to not just
(06:44):
see people through theirdisability or handicap, but
actually see people for who theyare, for their full personhood.
How does that help us, when wesee people in their full
humanity, and not just aboutwhat whatever difficulty they
have in life. I think it can betransformative for us and for
(07:07):
the people we're looking at asdisabled. And this isn't in the
book, but I may write about itsomeday. But growing living in a
small town my mom's hometown inwestern South Dakota for years,
taught me a lot about that,because one of the, one of the,
my favorite people in town, wasa paranoid schizophrenic. And
every now and then she would goto the state hospital and get
(07:28):
her medications changed, and butpeople in the town, my I was one
of them. People in the towncould tell when she was off her
meds, because she was yellingabout the Federal Reserve and
the gold standard, and justbeing being literally crazy. But
and when that would happen, I'drun into her in the street, and
I said, Ask her to talk abouther son. And like you could see
the gear shifting, because shewas very proud of her son. It
(07:51):
was very bright young man, andshe had been bright when she was
a young woman. That's a horriblething about a lot of
schizophrenia. It strikes verybright young people, but getting
to know her and understandingthe pain of her condition was a
milestone for me. And of course,most schizophrenics are not
violent people, although Iremember one day I ran into her
(08:15):
in the post office, and she hadpinned a note to her blouse that
said, Go to hell, and I knewthat she didn't mean me, I just
decided to ignore that, and Ithink it was probably addressed
to her husband. But she was acharacter in a way, but getting
to know her, and really, oneday, when she talked about some
of these paranoid delusions shehad, I said to her that must
feel terrible. You must feelterrible. And I could really
(08:38):
empathize, and I I'm so gratefulfor those experiences. Becky was
never schizophrenic. It was justa matter of a lack of oxygen to
the brain at the wrong time. Butshe certainly presented
difficulties for the family,especially when she got into her
late 20s, early 30s, becauseadolescence for someone like
(08:59):
that. In early 20s was a verydifficult period, but just kind
of knowing the full person, Ithink, is what we're called to
do. I think as Christians, andyou look at it, Jesus didn't shy
away from people who wereoutcast and neglected or
dismissed in his society. And Ithink that's that's an important
thing to remember. What do youthink your role as as a writer
(09:21):
and an observer, as somebody cansee other people? How does that
help me, or the people who readyour work, or the people that
you get to talk to, to be ableto see more fully who people
are? How is your role as writerand observer help that. I think
my job is just to tell storiesand to tell them in a way that
(09:44):
people can relate to them nomatter what their own experience
is. They may never have knownsomeone with brain damage, but
tell stories and then let peoplemake of them what they will. I'm
not interested in telling peoplehow to live or what to do.
Do I want them to read a storyand go, oh, oh, well, maybe the
(10:05):
next time I see someone in awheelchair, I'll talk to them,
and not the person who's drivingthe chair, that kind of thing,
so they might change but, butagain, I want them to take it
and run with it related to theirown experience. But I think just
simply a storyteller. I don'tI'm not a philosopher. In fact,
I pretty much flunked philosophyand got sent over to you belong
(10:27):
in the literature department,that kind of thing. But
storytelling is so valuable. Andof course, the great model for
that is Jesus, and it's one ofmy favorite passages in all of
Scripture that when this lawyerwants to know what he can do to
be saved, and he knows the rightanswer, the ancient Jewish
formula, the Shema, that youlove God, love your neighbor,
(10:49):
Love Love your neighbor asyourself, he has all that. But
then he will Who is my neighbor?
And he's a lawyer, he's probablyexpecting a legal definition,
and instead, Jesus says a manwas walking along a road and was
beset by robbers. He tells thestory of the Good Samaritan, you
know, and that, to me, is likethe essence of why writing is so
valuable, because it gives usstories that we can take and run
(11:12):
with, and people should make, insome sense, I actually think the
writer completes my work, I hearsomething often, somebody will
tell me that something I said orwrote what it meant to them, and
I wasn't even aware I was doingit. And that's a real gift. I
think every preacher knows thatyou put something in a sermon,
and somebody will come back andsaid, Oh, this meant so much to
(11:35):
me. I said that well, but that'sthe Holy Spirit, that's the
gift, that's the real gift of ofwriting. You know, this story of
your sister is you're reallyclose to it. It is, it is very,
you know, personal. It'sintimate. It is something that
you have experienced. So how didthe role of you being
(11:55):
storyteller and thenexperiencing the story like
like, early on in your life, didit? Did it shift perspective as
you then started to tell thestory after you've lived it?
Yeah, and I think this book feltimpossible to write for a long
time, because I was close to it.
(12:15):
And how do I do this? Becausegrowing up with Becky and then
living apart from her for a longtime, because I went to college
away from the family, although Isaw the family frequently, but I
was away at college, I wasworking. I didn't see Becky as
much, but then Becky had thewonderful gift of writing stream
of consciousness letters. Sheprobably sent three or four
(12:36):
letters a week to people in thefamily, and I had all of those
letters. Writing is hard toread, but they really were
stream of consciousness, and youcould really tell what was going
on in her mind and stuff. So Ihad all of this material. And
then another grace thathappened, this clinic, Medicaid
clinic that she went to foryears that really saved her
(12:56):
life, did so much for her when Iwas talking to some of the staff
there because they knew I waswanted to write this book. Well,
would you like all of hermedical records? I said, yeah,
all of them, including thedoctor's notes from all of the
emergency room visits she had,she had a lot of physical
problems, as well as the as themental and so having all of
(13:20):
that, and then having to figureout how to use it, how to put it
together. But the book feltimpossible for me for a lot of
reasons at first, but then whenI started looking at all these
materials and my parents lettersto me about her and the
problems, and talking to familymembers as I was progressing
with the manuscript, suddenly Irealized, no, I can do this, I
(13:41):
can tell this story, and it justkept blossoming. And then I got
a wonderful editor at IBP whoreally pushed me hard and got
even more stories out of me,which was a blessing as well.
The whole book, in a sense,feels like a miracle, because I
knew something was up. The firstlittle piece I wrote. It's
(14:01):
simply this tiny thing abouttaking my sister to a Beach Boys
concert in 1962 in Hawaii. Andthat was the first piece I
wrote. This memory just Well Iknew I wanted to write about my
memories of my sister thatwelled up in me. And as soon as
I finished it, I sat theresobbing. Just absolutely fell
apart. And I thought, Oh, dear,this is going to be a journey.
(14:25):
This, this is some somethingsignificant has just broken
through. And then it took aboutanother eight years for me to
really finish it and find apublisher. And because this
book, this manuscript, gotrejected a couple times, so by
people. So finally, it wouldwake me up at three in the
morning, and I could, I couldhear my sister saying, you know,
(14:47):
she was jealous of my when I mybook started to sell and
everyone was talking about mybook, she was quite jealous. She
told me my book, Dakota wasboring, and that was for
reaction, but um, detect theletter that she wrote.
Me about it is in the book,it's, it's really sweet. She
said, One day, well, you shouldwrite a book about me so I can
be famous like you. That feltlike a calling, and at three in
(15:10):
the morning it would wake me up.
But what are you doing about mybook? My book, and I'm thinking,
I really want to write it, but Idon't know how. But I actually
think a lot of books are thisway that it's such a big project
and it takes so long, it's easyto give up, but I've learned not
to. I've learned to justpersist. If a book is important
enough, then I have to stay withit, and I'm really glad I did.
(15:33):
So what does that persistencestart to look like in your life,
and what was this emotionaljourney of that's a that's a
long process of writing thisbook and being immersed in
something that writing, youknow, an essay, of taking your
sister to a Beach Boys concertended up in weeping. You got
what? What was this emotionaljourney like? I knew something
(15:55):
was up, and so I just proceededcarefully, because I just that
was about a year or two aftershe had died, and that spring,
and I just started verygingerly, exploring a few more
memories, and then morememories, of course, started to
come. And I thought I had, I hadabout 300 pages of Finally,
after another year or so, and Isent it off to an editor and an
(16:20):
agent that I'd worked with foryears, and they both just flatly
rejected it. So that was a blowthat was expected blow, because
at least the editor, I thoughtthe thing that really she's
she's still my friend. I toldher, we're not going to lose our
friendship over a stupid bookmanuscript, but because I've
known her for a long, long time,but the heart, the thing that
was hardest was that she wasn'teven willing to take it on and
(16:42):
work with me, because I knew thebook needed work. You know,
that's what wanted her to seeit, because she's She, she, she
was the editor for Dakota andpleasure walk and amazing grace
and the Virgin of Bennington.
She was a wonderful, wonderfuleditor, but she wasn't even
willing to take it on. And thatwas like, Oh, dear. What do I do
now? And that sort of and thenthe agent just said, why don't
(17:05):
you write about something else?
And I'm going, Oh, I mean,again, I just felt kind of lost
for a while. Book went on theback burner. I did try to write
about something else, which mayor may not, I think I and we'll
end up with another manuscriptwithin the next year, but, but
that was a terrible, terribleexperience and humbling, and,
you know, and all of that, and,but that book, but Beck, I call
(17:30):
it Becky's book. Becky's bookher voice, you know, write a
book about me that just keptwaking me up in the morning in
the middle of a good sleep. AndI say, Yeah, I think I really do
have to do this. And finally Isaid, Okay, I'm just going to
find another editor, anotheragent, and go from there. I'm
too old to wait around, and I'mso grateful that I did. It just
(17:50):
was a decision that that Ineeded to dust this book off,
see what I had, what I needed tochange, and then send it off
again, and it was wonderful.
Early on, I know that yourparents had a little guilt on
even the hospital experiencearound Becky and what happened
(18:11):
with the hospital experience herbirth and the lack of oxygen to
her brain. How did your parentsdeal with that guilt? And how do
you think that some of thatguilt affected the family
growing up as well. I don't knowthat it affected the family a
lot. It made my dadoverprotective, because he was
one that I think the decisionhad been made because he was in
(18:33):
the Navy. He when Becky wasborn, he was an assistant
conductor and orchestrator forthe Navy Band in Washington, DC,
and I don't know what all wentinto this decision. I remember
vaguely hearing them talk aboutthis, but they decided not to go
to a private hospital, but tohave Becky go mom went to the
(18:53):
Navy Naval Hospital at Bethesda.
And I mean, Navy doctors can bewonderful, but sometimes they're
just putting in their time,their service, and all that kind
of stuff. So you get a real mix.
And my dad always felt that ifthey had gone to a private
hospital, what happened to mymom and what happened to Becky
wouldn't have happened. So hehad whether or not that's true,
I don't know, but that's how hefelt about it, and that was a
(19:17):
load of guilt for him. My momwas much more stoic and just
accepting, I think. And she wasa teacher. She taught small
children, so she she understoodBecky very well, and understood
what she could do what shecouldn't do, you know? And I
(19:37):
don't know that, and I know she,she had that horrible experience
of giving birth. She might havefelt some guilt about that, but
she knew it really wasn't herfault. She'd been given too many
drugs. Really, she'd given birthbefore to my brother and me, so
she knew things weren't right,and she actually heard a doctor
say, one doctor say to theother, you got yourself into
(19:58):
this mess. Let's see you getyourself.
Unknown (20:00):
Out
Kathleen Norris (20:01):
that was really a horrible experience for her. I
don't think she had a lot ofguilt about it. She wished,
obviously, wish things had beenbetter, and we all sort of dealt
with that. What if question withBecky and my, one of my dad's
comments, and Becky actuallylaughed at this, Becky, you
know, if, if you had, if she hadbeen more severely damaged,
(20:22):
brain damaged, then it mighthave made sense to put her in an
institution. If she'd been justa little less brain damaged, we
could get her elected toCongress, and Becky got the
joke. That was my dad. I mean,he had that crazy sense of
humor, and so we all knew thatthere were a lot of things she
could do, a lot of things shecouldn't do. And the thing that
(20:44):
we both shared, and Becky and Iused to love to talk about all
the things we had in common, andone of them was math anxiety.
Becky was in terms of numeracy.
Becky would that's probablywhere the brain damage really
was, because she could, youcould hand her a $1 bill or a
$20 bill, and she would not beable to know that there was a
difference. Now I I'm not thatbad, but Becky, that was really
probably that part of the brainwas what had really been
(21:07):
damaged. So we had to look outfor her in that way. But
otherwise, you know, as kidsespecially, we just played in
the backyard and had a dog and,you know, did, did pretty normal
kids stuff. Squabbled a lot, ofcourse, and parents had to step
in and make peace. You know,where do you think the
(21:27):
transformation came later on inher life? And why do you think
that there was a shift and achange in Becky? Well, part of,
part of it probably was dealingwith some really serious
illness, and because my betagain, Becky's life was so
unfortunate in so many ways, shegot breast cancer. Now she
(21:48):
discovered it herself. She didbreast self examination. She was
aware that of the danger. Shefound this lump, and she told
her doctor she needed to getexamined. And it was breast
cancer. This wonderful doctor ata Medicaid clinic got her, got
her into a very good women'sprogram for that, she told my
parents, you know this girl,this this young woman, is
falling through the cracks somany times in her life, I'm not
(22:10):
going to let it happen. So Beckygot very good care for her
breast cancer, and she survived10 year survival. About 10 or 12
years after she had the breastcancer, she got esophageal
cancer, and that is what killedher. And with totally unrelated
The doctor said that two cancersare just probably not related at
all. They could not see anyrelation. But having to deal
(22:33):
with serious illness and beingin cancer wards, I've been in
cancer wards, not only withBecky, but also with my husband,
that kind of changes yourperspective on things. You know,
you see people dealing with somereally serious issues and all of
that. And the remarkable thingwith Becky was that it made her
(22:53):
less self centered. And Iremember this, the story is in
the book that one of theoncology nurses that just adored
her said, Oh, your sister's soselfless. And I'm going, Wow,
that's a change, because, like alot of damaged, wounded people,
neuroses and self centerednessbecome their defense mechanism.
(23:16):
That aced that for years, shewas extremely self absorbed,
pretty neurotic, but we allunderstood this was her defense
against people calling her slowand stupid and retarded and
treating her badly. And itworked for years, and then
suddenly it was gone. And it wasamazing to see in the cancer
world, there's quite a bit aboutthat when she would go there,
(23:39):
because a lot of people, whenthey're in, you know, getting
chemotherapy and things likethat, they're angry, and they
take it out on the nurses, andthey're they're afraid. Becky
was just she treated it like itwas a social encounter. She
talked to the nurse. Well, howlong have you been doing this?
What drew you to this kind ofwork? Do you have any kids? How
old are they? She treated itlike a social occasion, and she
(24:00):
looked forward to going and theonly person I've ever known and
looked forward to going tochemo. I mean, it's just
incredible. But this interest inother people, which my dad
always had, it was like mysister sort of adopted more of
my dad's personality, but thatself centeredness, that there's
a story I tell in the book, itwas pretty overwhelming for a
(24:21):
while,and Becky lacked the filter to
hide it the way most people do.
So I remember there was oneoccasion I was taking her to a
movies, which I did a lot,because she loved movies, and
we're I'm trying to tell hersomething really significant
that had happened to me,something really important. And
(24:41):
she said, No, I go first. Mystory is more important than
yours. And by then, I knew notto laugh. This was curious. I
just okay, Becky, what is it?
And it was the usual thing aboutsome roommate in the group home,
and just, you know, her usualranting about something. And I
eventually tell my story. But.
My star is more important thanyours. And you go, yeah, a lot
(25:03):
of people feel that way, butthey're not going to admit it.
And there's Becky right there,just, you know, you could count
on her,you know, to do that. And I
remember our mother's funeral, Igot up to give a eulogy, and
Becky tugged at my dress andsaid, Don't mess this up. Okay?
And then I when I came back andsat down, I said, Well, how'd I
(25:25):
do you were okay? I mean, shewas just such a character, but
honest in a way, and it's soeven when she was at her worst,
in terms of the narcissism, itwas so transparent, you couldn't
really be upset with her,because that really was a very
good defense mechanism. And I'veknown other very narcissistic
(25:47):
people, and I always think Iwant to know what's behind this.
Why are they this way? Becausethey must have some pretty deep
wounds that they're they'redealing with, and I saw that
with my sister, but yeah, thetransformation in the last, I
guess, five years of her lifewas just extraordinary, and it
was so much fun to write aboutthat. And I don't not just using
(26:09):
my own words, I'm using thewords of that nurse and some
other people who knew her andabsolutely adored her, and she
left it up, of course, but herearly childhood was really
difficult because Special Edwasn't very well developed,
especially in Hawaii. And, youknow, she was rejected just over
and over and over by her peers,by teachers, even the one
(26:30):
teacher she didn't know what todo with her special ed students,
so she had them clean theclassroom. I mean, not good, but
Becky always had the family. Thefamily was the one place she
knew she belonged. She wasloved. You know, Home Base was
very, very important to her,yeah, and so how do we find
that? Let's take this intohumanity. I think a lot of us
(26:53):
wear a facade that we have ourown defense mechanisms. We have
masks on. We don't actuallyportray our true selves the
world because we're afraid ofgetting hurt or we're afraid of
something. How do we show ourtrue selves? How do we become
the people within a community sothat we can know that there is
(27:14):
some love and acceptance withincommunity and with one another.
What does that look like for usto do that? Yeah, I think the
word fear. I think that is atthe heart of it, that you know,
everyone's experiencedrejection, and you're afraid of
experiencing more rejection, soyou do things that, in fact,
(27:36):
will make sure that you'rerejected because you anti social
behavior, destructive behavior,or self destructive behavior.
But I think fear is often at atthe heart of it, and that's why
I think having a community,having a family as a home base,
where where there's totalacceptance my mother and father,
unconditional love, you know,beautiful example that, and like
(27:59):
my dad said, We about Becky. Hesaid we learn a lot about love
from her, because sometimes itwas hard to love her, but, but
we but that was rock bottom. Ithink church communities often
will provide that for people.
And even if you have a job thatyou love and you're working in a
(28:19):
little office with a bunch ofother people that you know and
trust. Anything that can canhelp alleviate those kinds of
fears. Often jobs, there's a lotof competition, then it's a very
negative atmosphere, but, but Ihad the good fortune to be in an
office of like, four or fivewomen when I first sourced out
of college, and they were allmother hands. It was wonderful.
(28:40):
You know you can find, we canfind these, these communities,
and make our own communities andsense, make our own families
that help us deal because you'realways going to get rejection.
You're always going to getcriticized for this or that or
the other. And it's just knowingthat there is that home base,
there's at least a few peoplewho know me. They love me
(29:03):
anyway. That's that's essential.
Walking through the loss ofBecky, walking through the loss
of your husband. What does itlook like for you to deal with
losses, deal with the grief, andthen continue to say, I need
community. I want to findcommunity and and be intentional
about being with others. Yeah,and I was caregiving, really,
(29:24):
for my husband a great deal, tosome extent, to my parents,
although they had, they hadassisted living available in
their last years. And then forBecky. And I remember my dad
died in 2002 and then myhusband, just a year later, it
was only 57 had enough medicalhistory for a lot of people. And
he's, he's a little bit in thisbook. I wrote more about him in
the book on acedia, but and thenmy mom died in 2009 and Becky in
(29:47):
2013 so that was all of asudden. I didn't, I didn't have
any caregiving duties anymore,which was very strange, because
I've been doing it for a longtime.
Hmm, and so I had to think aboutthat, and being in a prayer
chain at my church, was in mychurch congregation for
(30:08):
confidential prayers, thatpeople brought confidential
prayers, and we would meet oncea month, that was an important
form of community for me thatreally helped deal with that odd
period, because we I was caring,it was just through prayer, and
then sometimes from action.
There was, we had an elderlymember that needed help to get
to, uh, attendance with cancertreatment. I didn't have a car.
(30:30):
I don't drive so, but she was inour prayer group, and we said,
we're not going to let you gothrough this alone. And I had a
friend who had a car, and so wepeople just, just signed up to
take her once, a bunch of peoplewould take her once a week. This
was the church community doingthose kinds of things. And there
were other instances of that,that, and that's one of the
gifts, I think, of churchcommunities, is that people will
(30:51):
step up to help provide whenthere's a need and it's it's
beautiful. It's beautiful to seethat, and the other real. It's
odd because these peoplecouldn't, in some ways, couldn't
be more different from me. Butone of my other big, main
communities is Benedictinemonks, two communities, one in
North Dakota and one inMinnesota, St John's, I teach
(31:16):
there at their School ofTheology. The last couple of
years for a week in the summer,inevitably, when I show up at St
John's or assumption Abbey, amonk will come up to me, give me
a hug and say, Welcome home. Itmakes no sense at all, but it
feels that way and and whatobserving how they do community
is really something, becausethey live with each other, day
(31:39):
in, day out. They know you cantell, even I've been places long
enough, you can tell who'swalking down the hall by the
sound of the footsteps. I mean,it's very, very intimate. And
they just, they're there foryou. I just had two friends who
celebrated 50 years as monks toSaint Benedict on the July 11,
and I was online watching, and Iwas celebrating with them. I was
(32:01):
so happy to see that they'rewonderful, wonderful, very
different men, but, but they'rewonderful guys and and I
consider them real friends. Andso that's the community I can
turn to. In fact, my family,even my sister, who doesn't
think too highly of church stuffwhen there's a big need in her
life. She said, Get your monkfriends to pray for me. And
(32:23):
that's what Becky. Becky didn'tquite understand when I was
going to monastery. That was analien concept, but when she
found out that these are peoplewho pray a lot, oh, well, then
ask them to pray for me, thatthat that was her connection
with them. And I showed her somepictures of them. She said,
these are good looking guys. Isaid, Yes, I know the fact that
they were playing for her thatmeant a great deal. So as you
(32:46):
continue to work on thismanuscript, work on this book,
Rebecca Sue, what was the storythat you wrote down that really
moved you while you were writingit? Oh, there were so many, but
one that just came out of theblue. It was fairly late in the
process. In terms of writing,one of the things that happened
(33:07):
with this book is I had to take20,000 words out of the
manuscript because the editor,Cindy, Cindy bunch had IVP and I
both agreed there was too muchfamily detail, especially in the
early things. It was starting toSOG bog down. And okay, that
story can I'm really good atthis if I because this, I think
starting out as a poet reallyhelps, because I can pare down
really pretty easily. And so ittook a long time, but, but we
(33:32):
were both very happy with how itcame out. And I was very happy
for Cindy's pushing me on this20,000 words. So that was a big
deal. But there were a few, afew things that got added
towards the end of the process.
And I think the one that shockedme the most and made me weep
again, was when I connect. Irealized that my sister had a
(33:55):
connection with the story ofMary of Egypt, who is not well
known in the Western Church, butshe's a saint in the Eastern
Orthodox Church. And it's aWild, Wonderful, one of these
crazy, wild stories from theearly desert of this woman who
had been sexually promiscuousand, you know, and and lived a
(34:15):
very dissolute life, and thensuddenly turning completely
around, because the Virgin Marybasically told her to get go to
desert and straighten out. Butshe did. There's just the
wonderful story this monk whohe's gone to the desert to
meditate and everything, and hesees this creature that he's not
(34:35):
even sure it's human. She'sMary. Mary has been out in the
desert. He thinks it might be awild beast, and he approaches
her and identifies himself as amonk, and even though she had
this illiterate had no educationin Scripture at all, she's
quoting scripture to him. She'squoted saying things like the
(34:55):
Lord's Prayer. So he realizesthat this is a holy woman who
has received.
Receive this gift from God, andjust, and it's a there's a lot
of genre. There's whole genre ofstories like that, of monks who
find holy women who make themrealize, Wow, I'm a pretty good
monk, but this woman is reallygot the Holy Spirit in her. I
(35:16):
mean, there's some reallywonderful stories, and this is
one of the best ones. So he kepthe visited her off and on, and
then finally, when he when shecomes out one time and she's
dead, and he buries her,although that the legend is that
lions helped to bury her. Imean, you know, these stories
are just so, so terrific ofsomeone who's one with nature,
in a sense that the lion comehelp the monk bury this woman
(35:38):
and my sister, because she wasbipolar, had that thing, I think
doctors call it hypersexualityin her 30s. So she went through
a lot of really scary sexualmisadventures. It's, it's a
miracle that she came throughthem. And when I realized that
my sister's story mirrored Maryof Egypt's in, in some ways not
(36:00):
identical, of course, but insome ways that here's this woman
who's been through all of thisbad behavior and suddenly is
turned around. You know, I said,Oh, my God, that's yeah, this
woke this works and so And myeditor was thrilled. She really
loved that connection. And I didtoo. And I again, that was one
(36:23):
of the stories. When I realizedthat that there was a connection
with Mary of Egypt, I just lost.
I just because I'd beeninterested in Mary of Egypt for
years, but never had connectedmy sister's story with her. And
when I did again, I broke downweeping. I thought, Oh, wow,
this is big help. I write aboutit, and I pushed through and I
(36:44):
was able to write a littlesomething.
What else have you learnedrecently that have stuck with
you from the Desert Fathers andmothers? Oh, in fact, that's
probably going to be the subjectof my next book, because it's
such an amazing literature theyleft behind stories. A lot of
them have never even beentranslated yet, from Coptic and
(37:06):
Greek and Syriac and thoseancient languages. But the ones
that have been translated,there's a whole literature, and
most Christians and most eveneducated people really don't
know about them, partly becausethe stories really weren't
available in English until aboutthe late 70s. That's when they
Benedict award a Scholar atOxford, a nun. She's a sister,
(37:29):
but she she published probablythe first really popular
edition. Thomas Merton did somethings with them, but I remember
discovering them and thinking,this is a whole undercover the
root at the tap root ofChristianity, before any
divisions in the church. Thesepeople are there, and their
wisdom is just universal. It'sgood psychology. Get away from
(37:52):
any man who argues every time hetalks. That's good advice. When
they're full of these stories,the stories are very zen, like,
in some ways, the master pupil,you know, teachings that they
left us. But it's this wonderfulliterature. And my husband was
well educated by the Jesuits,but he really didn't know much
(38:13):
about them. And was stunned,because he thought of himself as
really well educated, and hewas, but that whole thing with
the Desert Fathers and mothers.
They lived from the second toabout the sixth century in the
Middle East, basically Egypt,Syria, Turkey, and they produced
these stories that eventuallywere written down. It's oral
literature, which makes it veryimmediate, and it's good
(38:35):
technology, it's goodpsychology. And finding them was
just so wonderful. And so thatprobably the subject of my next
book, because I want there'sbeen a lot more scholarship
about them, and so I've dependedon scholars that people think of
them as all hermits, and theyweren't. They weren't nearly as
isolated as people think theywere. They were they had a lot
(38:57):
of business with townspeople andcamel drivers coming in to pick
up the baskets they woke to selland things like that. They they
had a lot of interaction withother people in this society,
and they were just treated well.
Here's the holy man who livesoutside our village, and you go
to him if you've got problems,that kind of thing. And so
(39:18):
they're really interesting. Andthe literature. It's men and
women. The literature is justoutstanding and very
contemporary, in a way. Andthat's what I'm that's what the
new book. It's, it's still inthe manuscript form. And when I
sometimes I read it and I think,well, it's, it's pretty good,
and other times I think, oh mygosh, it's best. We're going to
find another editor and we'regoing to work with them right
(39:41):
now. I'm just so thrilled tofinally have Rebecca sue in hand
as a book. It just really doesstrike me as a miracle, because
it went it, it was in limbo. Iwould call it sort of in limbo
for a good 10 years before Ifinally said I have to.
Get I have to get back to it. Sowhat do you hope for your
(40:03):
readers of Rebecca Sue, thismiracle of a book that you have
well to meet a person that youprobably wouldn't meet in your
ordinary circumstances of yourlife, someone who's brain
damaged, has a great, crazysense of humor, a wild
personality, difficult person,but really worth knowing, and me
(40:27):
introducing her and introducing,you know, some of my family too,
because we were all charactersin this book, including my
sister in law and some of my myfamily. Had a three generation
household in Honolulu, so for along time, I had my parents, my
brother, his wife, their twolittle girls, my sister, her
husband and their two kids, allin great big house, and Becky
(40:49):
was living there for quite awhile with them. So they grew up
with her. So you get to meet,you get to meet the cast of
characters. And then finally, asBecky developed into her 30s,
social workers said, you know,unless she moves out of the
home, she will never mature.
She'll never have to learn howto live with other people. And
so that she was she would stillcome over very frequently. When
she was still healthy. She couldtake the bus to visit the
(41:12):
family, or we'd go pick her upand take her to movies or take
her out to lunch or whatever. Soshe was still part of the
family, but for a long time. Imean, when I talk about the
family being the kind of thehome, the home the central for
her, that's it's very much inthe book, you really get a
portrait of a family. I hadGareth Higgins on last year to
talking about your book a wholelife in 12 movies, and you're
(41:36):
still writing a weeklynewsletter around movies with
with Gareth Higgins, so I'd beMiss to say, What have you been
watching lately that is reallystood out for you? I just, I
just like, I just have beenworking on an essay, but we
alternate essays each Gareth hasan essay on the new Superman
(41:57):
film this week, and I have athree things I'm thinking about,
some things about profit motivethat I found in The Economist
stories. So in I think one of mynext three things Colin will be
about a book I'm reading aboutthe early monks. In fact, my
next week's essay will be abouttwo really terrific series that
I found, and I don't like tobinge watch but I couldn't help
(42:19):
it with these two. One of themis called the survivors. It's an
Australian series set in a smalltown in Tasmania, so it's a
really interesting locale andand basically, it's ordinary
people. There's nothingsupernatural. They're not
superheroes. They're justordinary people in a small town
dealing with some tragedy andsecrets and things. And it's
just beautifully done. It's justso well done. Called the
(42:41):
survivors. Then the other thingI saw I
was I like Michael Connelly'smysteries, kind of hard police
murder mysteries, and set in LosAngeles. This is about one of
the characters he invented, awoman named Ballard, Detective
Ballard, and it's calledBallard, and it's a 10 show
(43:03):
series about she's been demotedat the police department for a
number of reasons, partlybecause she's a woman, but and a
feisty woman at that, but she'srunning a cold cases, and a lot
of people are Looking down onthis. But what two things really
struck me about that series? Imean, it's obviously a police
(43:24):
procedural, but one of the realthemes of the of the series is
compassion, that he and this onetired policeman who's
volunteering to help her withcases, they take this case that
no one wants, that people makefun of them because it's just a
guy who's probably anundocumented alien, and he was
killed and and nobody cares, butthey have a video of him
(43:46):
carrying a baby the last timehe's seen he's carrying a baby,
and they want to solve the caseso they can find out what
happened to that child. Sothere's real compassion there.
And the other thing iscompassion for women who've been
assaulted, and it's reallystriking. So that's the theme.
That's the theme of of my essaywas called binging on
(44:07):
compassion, because both ofthose stories really had
compassion for ordinary peopledealing with very difficult
situations and and they bothhave elements of a police
procedural, but there's so muchmore than that. And there's not
a lot of silly action,certainly, certainly not in
Tasmania. But, you know, actionlike guns and explosions and car
(44:27):
chases and stuff like that. It'spretty minimal in the Los
Angeles series. So that thatreally struck me, that something
I wanted to write about, but Ifind so many interesting things.
I found a woman who, in theteens and early 20s, was more
famous as a director than CecilB DeMille, named Lois Weber, and
(44:48):
her stuff's available forstreaming and on YouTube. So I
did it. I did two Book Two, shewas quite prolific as a
director, and so I did two.
Essays on her, I found Iraniancinema, which has to be one of
the wonders of the world, wherethese kept getting put in prison
and hassled by the government,and they forbidden to make
(45:12):
films, and then they kept makingthem anyway. And they're
wonderful movies, and they'remostly available for streaming.
So I mean, I just it's been awhole Gareth. I owe I owe a lot
to Gareth because he kind ofopened up. I've always loved
movies, but I never reallywritten about them before. And
when we started this littleweekly soul Telegram, this
weekly thing on substack, it'sbeen just so much fun, because
(45:35):
it I do, and I do have to sitthrough a lot of junk, but as I
say in the book, Becky nearlyliked all kinds of movies, so I
used to sit for a lot of badmovies with her. So I kind of, I
know what that but I'm alwaysreally grateful to find
something that that really is istranscendent, that really
transcends the genre and reallymakes you stop and think about
(45:56):
life and and you can find themin amazing places. I mean, I
thought an LA detective storywouldn't, wouldn't do that for
me, but it did beautiful.
There's, you know, one questionI like to ask at the end is, if
you could go back to your 21year old self, Kathleen, what
advice would you give? Slowdown, be more careful about who
you're hanging out with. BecauseI was in New York City, and I
(46:19):
had that wonderful nest of womenthat I was working with at the
Academy of American poets, thesemother hens. I was also on the
on the edge of the, like theAndrew Warhol scene, with other
writers and people, a lot ofwhom were doing really serious
drugs, which scared the hell outof me, literally. So I mean, I
didn't do that because I justfound that too scary. But just
(46:40):
kind of slow down, look whereyou are and where do you want to
go and and one of the things forme, and I this is one of my bet,
my sister being firmly inangels, and I kind of do too,
but certainly the Holy Spirit,because there's no reason I
really survived all that. Andone of the great ironic things
(47:01):
is that I was living inManhattan, there are churches on
just about every street cornerin Manhattan. It never occurred
to me to go into one wasliterature had sort of replaced
religion. For me, it's aspiritual pursuit. So that made
some sense, and it worked for awhile. Worked until I was kind
of in my mid 30s and and then itjust no longer worked that way
(47:23):
anymore. And I did go back tochurch, and I sort of
reconnected with the faith of mychildhood. But, yeah, it's just
crazy. And there was one churchthat had been in my neighborhood
that I'd been interested ingoing to, partly just the
architecture, was called Churchof angels, of all things on West
End Avenue. By that time I gotback, that beautiful church had
been destroyed.
(47:47):
I was terrified. I was justhorrified. But I went up to find
them, and they were on a secondfloor of a nondescript building.
And they had, they said, thecongregation had got one of
those beautiful 19th centurybuildings that they couldn't
keep going, and the congregationwas dwindling when they and they
a lot of their woodwork fromthat church ended up in the
(48:08):
Metropolitan Museum of Art. Soyou still visit some angels and
the pulpit and some beautifulthings, but they started doing
really kind of a street cornerministry the second floor of
this nondescript kind ofbuilding. They got known for
doing a lot of charitable workin their congregation group, and
I had a one time visiting withthem. So it's a wonderful story,
(48:29):
but when I was in my 20s, theidea of going to church, I
wasn't rebelling againstanything. I had just drifted
away and writing made a goodsubstitute, until it didn't. And
so, yeah, I would probably say,slow down. Maybe go inside one
of those churches and see what'sin there. Well, Rebecca Sue is
going to be available inSeptember, and you can get that
(48:53):
anywhere books are sold. Isthere anywhere particular that
you'd like to point people to toget Rebecca Sue or any other
work, or is there anywhere elseyou'd like to point people to?
Well, I think if you can, ifthere's an independent bookstore
in your area or a good Barnesand Noble, try that Amazon were
Israeli convenient, but I'd muchrather have people support their
independent bookstores. And onegood thing Barnes and Noble has
(49:15):
been doing, they have beenbuying some really great
independent bookstores, like thetattered cover in Denver, and
they're keeping their name.
They're they keep they're goingto help keep them going. And so
there may not be quite asindependent as they were, but
they're not going to close. AndBarnes and Noble, apparently has
been doing that around thecountry. So I would recommend
either Barnes and Noble or yourlocal independent store for
(49:40):
books, great. Well, Kathleen,thank you so much for this
conversation. What a joy and aprivilege to be able to talk
with you and talk with you aboutBecky, to see who she was and to
meet her through you and yourwords, your your story, your
book, is just beautiful and.
Joshua Johnson (50:00):
Is beautifully written. And so thank you for
for the work that you put in formany years to be able to do that
and give us this story, so thatyour family doesn't just get to
meet Becky. We all get to meetBecky, and we could learn
through her story and yourstory. So thank you. It was a
fantastic conversation. Well,thank you. Thank you very much.
(50:20):
You
Unknown (50:35):
you.
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