Ep. 367 Brian Recker - How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love

In this episode, I talk with Brian Recker about his new book Hell Bent and the ways fear-based theology has shaped so many of our spiritual imaginations. Brian grew up learning about hell and God in the same breath, and he unpacks how that fusion created a system built on binary thinking, punishment, and spiritual insecurity. We explore his journey from fundamentalism to evangelical ministry to a reimagined faith centered on love, liberation, and a vision Jesus preached. We get into Gehenna, apocalyptic language, why evangelicals cling to certainty, how fear distorts our understanding of God, and what it means to live as people who bring heaven to earth rather than create hell on it. This is a conversation about reclaiming our belovedness, deconstructing fear, and rediscovering a spirituality that looks like compassion, justice, and the radical welcome of Jesus.

Brian Recker, M.Div, is a public theologian, speaker, and writer on Christian spirituality without exclusionary dogma. The son of a Baptist preacher and an alum of the fundamentalist Bob Jones University, he spent eight years as an evangelical pastor before deconstructing his faith to find a more inclusive spirituality. He now speaks about following Jesus without fear of hell on his popular Instagram account and his Substack, Beloved. He lives in Raleigh, North Carolina, and has four children and a rescue pup named Maev.

Brian's Book:

Hell Bent

Brian's Recommendations:

Reason, Faith, and Revolution

Acts

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Episode Transcript

Brian Recker (00:31):
What if nobody's coming to save us? What if,
actually, this isn't aboutgetting the hell out of here.
It's about getting the hell outof this world. It's and staying
here and rolling up our sleevesand doing the work of okay,
maybe none of us are goinganywhere. Maybe we have to
actually figure out how to livewith each other in a world of
neighbors, in a world of peoplewho believe different things,

(00:54):
who look different ways, maybewe have to figure out how to
love one another.

Joshua Johnson (01:12):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, in this
episode, I sit down with BrianRecker to explore how fear has
shaped so much of modernChristian spirituality and why
so many of us inherited a visionof God built more on punishment

(01:33):
than love. Brian grew up in afundamentalist world where he
learned about hell and God atthe exact same time, a period
that has shaped his earliestideas of faith and distorted his
understanding of grace. As heputs it, many Christians enter
the relationship with God on thepremise of avoiding eternal
torture, not embracingunconditional belovedness.

(01:54):
Together, we unpack how theevangelical system came to
require hell as a mechanism ofcontrol, how fear based theology
produces spiritual anxietyinstead of spiritual safety, and
how Jesus's own words point usto a very different vision.
Enter into this conversation,and even if you aren't where
Brian is, theologically, reckonwith fear and punishment, love

(02:16):
and compassion. If we trulybelieve God is love, how does
that change us? So join usreclaim a God whose posture
toward us is love, and learn howto build a world shaped more by
compassion than fear. Here is myconversation with Brian.
Wrecker, Brian, welcome toshifting culture. Thanks for
joining me. Excited to have youon

Unknown (02:38):
Well, excited to be here. Thanks for having me,
dude, Brian. Why the hell

Joshua Johnson (02:41):
do you think that we have a hell problem,
especially in the evangelicalchurch? Wow.

Unknown (02:48):
Where do we begin? Why?
That's an interesting question.
Actually, why do we have a hellproblem? I think we could
approach that from a lot ofdifferent angles, but the one
that just sprung into mind like,why is this a problem? I don't
think we have a hell problembecause of what the Bible says
about hell. I do think somebodyasked me recently if

(03:08):
Christianity requires hell, andI answered, well, it depends
what you mean by Christianity. Ithink in many ways, the white
evangelical system that we'vecreated does require hell, not
because the spirituality ofJesus required hell, not because
the way that the New Testamenttalks about and uses apocalyptic

(03:30):
hyperbole requires a literalhell, but because we have
created a system of, well, firstof all, it's a binary system.
There is an inside and anoutside, and you're either
you're either in it or you'reout of it. And part of the way
that we feel spiritually safe isby being a part of that, in
group, and by having people thatwe can other, that we can say
those are the people that needwhat we have. They need to be

(03:52):
more like us and believe likeus. It gives us our marching
orders. It gives us our mission.
It defines our identity asChristians in oppositional to
people that are outside. Andalso it frames it as there's a
punishment, so there's a there'sa stick, I think, you know, you
have carrot and stick withheaven and hell that really are
for many of us the reason webecome Christians in the first
place? You know, even though Ithink a lot of evangelical

(04:14):
churches don't talk about hellso much anymore, I think
especially if you're part of aseeker sensitive mega church,
it's possible that you'll nevereven hear it from the stage,
although some, you know, thereare some preachers that are
really trying to bring it backthat are quite popular, like a
Philip Anthony Mitchell, forexample, is a, he's a fire and
brimstone guy who's blowing upright now. But for the most
part, like a Stephen Furtickmega church style pastor, isn't

(04:35):
talking about hell that much.
But for the most part, if youpulled a room of evangelical
Christians and asked them, thinkabout when you first became a
Christian, when you got,whatever you want to call it,
born again, converted, youaccepted Jesus into your heart.
You accepted Jesus as yourpersonal Lord and Savior. When
you made that decision, was ahat was hell explained to you as

(04:59):
a part of your mental model formaking that decision. And 99 out
of 100 will say yes, absolutely,that was a part of that
decision. And so for manyChristians, we enter into that
relationship with God on thepremise of understanding the
consequences for not being inthat relationship with God,
namely being eternally torturedin hell. And so that is so

(05:22):
foundational to even what itmeans to be a Christian that it
is hard for then later down theroad to say, oh, maybe that's a
metaphor. Okay, well, if it's ametaphor. What are we doing
here? Because I thought that'swhy I did this in the first
place. So it's not that I again,to bring it back to your
question of why I think we'vebuilt a system that really
demands punitiveness andexclusionary binary thinking.

(05:44):
Well,

Joshua Johnson (05:44):
okay, so then what does that look like? Like
theology? If it is a fear basedexclusionary theology, how does
that distort the way that weencounter God and the way that
we view God?

Unknown (05:59):
I say in my book, you know, I talk about, for your
listeners, my book hell bent,how the fear of hell holds
Christians back from aspirituality of love, came out a
little over a week ago. I don'tknow when this will air, so
maybe a few more weeks. But inthe book, I talk about this idea
that evangelicals use all thetime, that you know, it's not a
religion, it's a relationship. Ithink that can be a helpful

(06:20):
phrase, but the reality is, manyof us that relationship began
with hell. I learned about hellthe same time I learned about
God. And in many ways, what Ilearned about God in that
initial conversation was God isholy. You deserve punishment.
Who you are and who God is isthat you're the one that really
destroy deserves to be destroyedby God and destroyed in hell.

(06:42):
And that's really what thatrelationship is. Except for, you
know, you enter into thisthrough Jesus, and now you can
have this different kind ofrelationship to God, but it is
kind of predicated on the factthat you know, outside of Jesus
actually your relationship withGod, you would be deserving of
punishment. So God isessentially someone that we are
inherently separated from, notinherently connected to,

(07:03):
inherently what we have by, bynature of our birth, is God's
displeasure, not God's pleasure,not God's delight, but God's
punishment. And I do think itfundamentally, yeah, is, are you
innately worthy of love fromGod, or are you innately worthy
of punishment from God? I thinkthat that is a really important

(07:24):
thing in any relationship. Wetalk about grace a lot in
Christianity, that we don't haveto earn it, but I think we miss.
I personally think that manyChristians have a short sighted
and kind of an incompletepicture of grace, because if
your default is that you believethat what everyone fundamentally
deserves is hell and punishment,then you end up defining grace

(07:47):
as anything you get from Godthat's a step better than hell.
Like every breath is grace.
Everything that happens to youthat's not eternal torture is
grace. And because grace isgetting what you don't deserve
and what you deserve is hell, Ipersonally think a better way to
think about grace is not thatwhat you deserve is hell. So
anything that you don't, youknow, get that's better than
that is grace. But actually thatas image bearers of God, I

(08:09):
believe that all people deservelove. I believe that we're
worthy of love and that that'swhat grace is. Grace is the fact
that you don't have to earnlove. You don't have to do
anything to be loved just byvirtue of being human. I mean, I
was taught that just by virtueof being born I deserved hell,
but I believe that just byvirtue of being born. You

(08:30):
deserve love, care, compassion,kindness, and I actually do
think that changes how you viewGod, how you view the world, how
you view others, how you viewyourself.

Joshua Johnson (08:40):
Let's just go into your story growing up under
your your family, your parents,you know fundamentalist pastor,
so growing up in afundamentalist church where hell
was the first thing that youlearned about right beside God,
what was going on in your lifelike? What did it look like

(09:00):
internally for you to have afaith that was more fear based
than love based? Well,

Unknown (09:06):
I definitely, as a kid, one of my primary memories when
I think about what didspirituality look like for me,
it looked like very frequent,repeated salvation prayers. It
looked like a struggle with theassurance of my salvation. That
was really the chief spiritualstruggle as a young person, was,
am I really saved or not? And Ithink that's a really it's such

(09:29):
a like inward looking andunhelpful thing to spin your
wheels about, because really, atthe end of the day, that
question of, Am I saved or not,was rooted in, am I going to be
punished forever when I die, oram I going to get to experience
God's love and redemption andreconciliation? And so that that
is really a fearful thing. Sothe question is like, am I loved
or not? Really does what isGod's posture towards me. What

(09:52):
does God think about me? DoesGod actually want to hate and
destroy me, or does God actuallywant to love and cherish me? And
that shouldn't be something thatkids in church are struggling
with and wrestling over. Thatshould be the place where they
are assured of God'sunconditional love. And so it
just kind of shows where, howfar we've gone wrong in so many
ways. But, yeah, I wrestled withthat, and then when I hit

(10:14):
puberty, it got a lot worse. Iwould say, like, what do I even
have when I was seven or eightyears old to, like, be worried
about, like, oh, did I lose mysalvation? Like, what did you
do? You know, but, and obviouslyI would say that puberty, it's
not like you've done anythingeither, of course, but the
church certainly. Does give us alot to feel guilty about when it
comes to natural, normal humansexual development. And by that

(10:38):
time, you know, since I gotsaved when I was five or six, by
the time I started to go throughpuberty, I had already been a
Christian for five or six orseven years, and so it's like,
oh, my sanctification issupposed to be up into the right
I'm supposed to be getting moreand more holy. But it seems like
things have taken a turn. Youknow, I'm now, all of a sudden,
experiencing lust and all thesethings that so I had a good

(10:58):
reason to doubt my salvation,and so my sexuality was the
enemy of my spirituality, and soI grew to loathe it in many
ways, and see my very humannessas something that could get me
damned, destroyed by God. Soagain, none of this breeds
spiritual safety. And I thinkwhat it ultimately led me to do

(11:19):
was kind of compartmentalize andjust learn how to live with
cognitive dissonance. Learn howto live with the fact that,
like, Okay, I'm going to chooseto believe that, you know, God
is love and I'm saved. But then,like, when that happens, when I
have, you know, some fall intosin. I just because it was, it
was such a threat to mysalvation, you know, because,
yeah, they'll say, Christians,you know, in fundamentalism,

(11:40):
they'll say, Oh, of course,Christians can sin, but they
won't continue in sin. And it'slike, but who decides, like,
what that line is, you know,like, that was a scary and I can
that was all as a straightperson. I think of my queer
brothers and sisters who grew upin the church who were made to
feel so especially despised, andcontinue in sin. Well, every

(12:00):
like every day I wake up and I'mgay, then am I continuing in
sin? And does that mean that Godis going to destroy me in hell?
It's a it's a really, it's ahell of a thing we did to him.

Joshua Johnson (12:11):
As you're then looking at the landscape, and
you're thinking about likefundamentalism and what that
happened. Your first shift wasinto mainstream evangelicalism.
Became an evangelical pastorfrom the stage. People weren't
talking a lot about hell. Theywere talking about grace. How
did you start to see that someof the same threads of fear

(12:33):
based, hell based theology washappening in mainstream
evangelicalism as well, even ifthey weren't talking about it on
stage all the time. Yeah, it'sreally

Unknown (12:43):
interesting, because I never preached about hell when I
was an evangelical pastor, but Idid encourage people towards
salvation and and that waspretty common in our movement,
that was the way we talked aboutit. And it really was like some
sleight of hand that washappening there, because I think
everybody knew what we meant,because we didn't have to say
it. It was in the either it hadbeen, you know, it was in the

(13:05):
foundation of their spiritualityalready. And so we were able to
rely on the fact that peoplealready knew about heaven and
hell, and so we could just talkabout how Jesus wanted to save
you without having to, like, gointo grisly detail over you know
what I grew up like? Literally,we had a visiting speaker in,
like, a revival meeting, and Iremember his sermon was called,

(13:26):
How hot is hell? Like that thatwas normal in my world, but that
I wasn't preaching sermonscalled, How hot is hell, neither
were the other evangelicalpastors around me. But we didn't
really have to. And I think thatyou know, if you were to
essentially, like, pick at ourtheology, hell was like, right
under the surface at any giventime, especially when we would

(13:48):
talk about the cross and the waywhat salvation meant was always
framed in terms of, basically,you know, the main problem that
we have is that we are, youknow, alienated from God because
of our sin, that God isessentially required to punish
us. Like punishment, in someways, is more central to God

(14:09):
than love in this paradigm,because God can't just forgive
sin. In this paradigm, God isrequired to punish us. And
therefore, in order to be saved,what salvation basically means
is that somebody has to bepunished, and it's either Jesus
or you, but punishment at theend of the day is king. And so
the question is, are you goingto put your faith in Jesus so

(14:30):
that God's punishment is pouredout on Jesus, or are you going
to have that punishment pouredout on yourself in hell? And
that was basically, and again,I'm maybe saying it in maybe
harsher or more straightforwardterms than we would have couched
it. We would have tried to makeit, we would have glossed it up
a little, but that was basicallythe story. And I think that's
the story in most evangelicalspaces of what it means to

(14:50):
become a Christian is to becomethe kind of person who is not
going to suffer for their sinsin hell because that transaction
has been made. It's atransactional gospel, and it
primarily, by the way, doesn'tchange us. It primarily changes
God's posture towards us thatnow God isn't forced to punish
us in that way.

Joshua Johnson (15:09):
So you're looking at that and you are an
evangelical pastor, you'rethinking about these things.
Where was the dissonancehappening within your own soul
of like this doesn't feel right.
I don't know if this is correct.
Where did that start to happenin your own life?

Unknown (15:29):
So the first time that I. Able to give myself
permission to really, I thinkI've had that dissonance my
whole life. I mean, I was very Iwas the kid that took this
seriously and felt fear aboutthe afterlife when I was a kid.
And I think one of the reasons Ieven went into ministry was, and
I wouldn't have ever articulatedit this way. This is all in
hindsight. I'm able to see that.
I think part, at least part ofit was this need to feel

(15:52):
spiritually safe, and it's like,Okay, I've got to double down on
making sure I've got my shitbuckled in and locked in and
like, like I have, like, my eyesdotted and my T's crossed. I'm
going to make sure that I knowthe answers here, because so
much of it was about believingthe right thing and having the
right cognitive informationabout, you know who Jesus was,
why he died, that He rose likeyou. Your doctrine is right, and

(16:16):
a lot of that. I mean, no,again, an evangelical wouldn't
say it this way, but at the endof the day, it's almost as if
we're gonna die and there'sgonna be like a god test. And if
you get the answers wrong on thegod test, you're going to hell.
And so it was very importantthat I get those test answers
right. And so I went in deep,but it always did feel like I
didn't like a lot of that itdidn't square. I mean, the

(16:40):
loving God, I'm being told Godis love, and I'm also being told
that God has to punish peopleforever in hell, and it didn't
ever square. And and there'stheological workarounds, but I
say in my book, there's noemotional work around and so
like the theolog, the theologiesthat you'll hear an evangelical
say, Well, God doesn't actuallywant to send people to hell. You
know, that's their rejection ofGod. It's locked from the
inside. They'll do all thesesort of theological gymnastics

(17:01):
to get around how God can bothbe loved fully love, and also
send the majority of humanity tohell forever for not believing
the right thing. And so you havelike a theology that helps make
sense of that, but it never, itjust felt like there's got to be
a better story that can't be thestory. And for me, the first
moment of permission giving, Ihad to really start to question
some of it was really theascendancy of Donald Trump in

(17:24):
2015 2016 and that might notseem like it has much to do with
Hal but in many ways, seeingevangelicalism line up behind
Trump it like it showed me wherethat spirituality was leading,
like it didn't lead to the kindof moral discernment that could
see through someone like that.
And therefore it kind ofrevealed that, oh, maybe this is

(17:47):
actually like about power thewhole way down. Maybe this is
not maybe there's a lack of goodfaith here. You know, maybe some
of these ultimately, when youstart to really question it, and
you start to, I mean, now onthis side of it, and I think
about hell doctrine, I thinkabout that we really told people
that the worst possible thingthat could ever happen to

(18:08):
anybody for the longest possibleamount of time, like, it's
actually kind of ridiculous onthe face of it, it sounds almost
silly. Like, yeah, does thatsound like it might be a control
tactic to you? Like, hey, youhave to stay in the in group and
keep believing what I say. Youhave to believe or God's gonna
burn you forever. Like it's youcan see how clearly, oh, this

(18:29):
was a use to keep us in line.
And in some ways, I was like,Oh, this is a fear tactic to
keep us in line. And the resultof this is, like, really bad
things happening in the worldthat we're justifying in the
name of Christian supremacy. Andin some ways, Trump is not, you
know, I think Kristin Dumais, inher book Jesus and John Wayne,

(18:50):
does a great job of making thepoint that Trump is not an
aberration of whiteevangelicalism. Like, wow, white
evangelicalism was going prettywell, but then this Donald Trump
thing happened, and, oh man, itgot all weird. It's, in many
ways, the culmination of thatproject, and I'm pretty
convinced of that. So I thinkseeing that happen, seeing
people in the movement get sobehind him, really just gave me

(19:10):
permission to question it gaveme permission to say, I know
they missed it on this I'm notthe smartest guy. I'm not the
most political guy. I don't knoweverything about everything. You
know this is me in 2015thinking, I don't know
everything, but one thing I knowis that, like, that's a bad,
evil guy, and he should not bepresident. And if you think, not
only would he be a better like,he's like in many of them, he's

(19:34):
like their favorite, he's likethe he's like the best possible
president. It made me realizethat our, the movement I was a
part of, had a real lack ofmoral discernment, which gave me
permission to question otherthings as well, like, what else
are they wrong about? What elsearen't

Joshua Johnson (19:50):
they Well, I think a lot of people would
then, then argue, if you'retalking about, oh, maybe like
hell doesn't exist, like peoplethink it does, maybe there isn't
the eternal torment in hell, andpeople aren't going to burn
alive for eternity. A lot ofpeople, I think in evangelical
spaces, will say, Yeah, ofcourse, that doesn't feel good.

(20:11):
And we you can't just rely on,oh, it doesn't feel good to have
your you know, thoughts changed.
How did you move into a feelingof like, this isn't right?
Which, of course, I think a lotof people would feel that way,
into a place of, oh, actually,let's look at what the Bible
actually has to say. About hell,and how can I reinterpret some

(20:32):
of the things that people havebeen saying is this, but it's
actually something different.

Unknown (20:42):
Yeah, so while I was still a pastor, I began to
deeply research hell. I readbooks on different sides of the
aisle, coming at the positionfrom different ways, and what I
realized was that the biblicaldata on hell was a lot messier
than what I was led to believe.
I my first stop, I'm aUniversalist now, which is the
position that all people willultimately be reconciled to God.

(21:03):
But my first shift was from sothe traditional position is
known as eternal conscioustorment, which I didn't make
that up. That's what the peoplewho hold that position call it,
and that's exactly what itsounds like, that they believe
that everyone who's outside ofChrist, who's not a believer,
will be eternally tormented,consciously. They'll be, you

(21:23):
know, aware. They'll be alive,basically, and suffering
forever. But my first move wasactually towards
annihilationism, which is thebelief that the wicked or
unbelievers, whatever you wantto call them, will be just
destroyed, put out of existence,as opposed to suffering forever.
And the reason I believed thatfor a while was that when I
studied the biblical data onhell, well, first of all, the

(21:45):
Old Testament doesn't have aconception of hell. It talks
about the grave and death, andreally everybody goes there, but
it does talk about the fate ofthe wicked. And when, when it
talks about the fate of thewicked, it typically uses
language of destruction, neverof torture, never of torment,
never of suffering. Talks aboutthe wicked being destroyed. And
in the New Testament, it'ssimilar and even images like
fire, for example, the image offire in the Bible is not

(22:08):
typically one of torture andsuffering. It's one of
consumption or refinement. Andthen I also got to study, you
know, the genres of the Bibleand how the Bible uses language.
I think this is something thatevangelicals are quite naive
about. Honestly, if I'm honest,you know, they claim to be like
the biggest Bible people, andthey often know their Bibles

(22:29):
really well in terms of, theyknow the words that it says, but
they're not necessarily. It'salmost like they need less time
studying their Bible and moretime in English Literature
class, like learning howliterature works, because the
Bible is full of metaphors, andit uses language in particular
ways, especially apocalyptichyperbole that that is common in
the prop the prophets and so,you know. And I don't have the

(22:52):
passage in front of me, I thinkit's Isaiah 36 that prophesies
about Edom. For example, one ofthe most commonly cited passages
about hell is in Revelation 14,where it says the smoke of their
torment will rise forever. Butwhat a lot of people don't
understand is that image inIsaiah, and I think it's Isaiah
36 I don't have in front of me,but it says that the smoke of
edom's torment will rise upforever when God destroys the

(23:12):
nation of Edom. But that didn'tmean that the people of Edom
would suffer forever in hell.
The point was that thatcivilization was going to
experience historicaldestruction. In other words, the
natural consequences of ouractions in this world come back
upon us within history, not inthe afterlife. And so now while,

(23:33):
while my initial stop withstudying those apocalyptic
passages that have destructionlanguage was, oh, maybe, maybe
annihilation, instead of eternalto conscious torment, now I
would actually see a lot ofthose destruction images as as
this worldly, as opposed to nextworldly. In other words, the
chickens come home to roost likewhat you We reap what we saw,

(23:55):
and it's about the kind of worldwe're creating. And yeah, when
we spend more money on bombsthan on health care, we create
Hell on Earth, not in the nextlife, but in this life. Now here
what I didn't get there while Iwas an evangelical pastor, into
that place of universalism andseeing hell primarily as of this
worldly reality. And the reasonfor that is not the Bible, it

(24:15):
was the system that we createdbecause I began to see, oh,
there's a lot of holes in thesehell doctrines. But the reason I
still had to hold on to somesort of punishment for
unbelievers, like annihilation,which would believe that, you
know, unbelievers are punishedwith destruction, is that our
whole view of salvation, of whyJesus lived and died, all of

(24:36):
this, was tied to there beingsome people that are saved and
that are inside, and then otherpeople that are damned and are
outside. I don't think that wasthe teaching of Jesus. I don't
think that's the gospel message,but that was our message. And so
that was a really tough thing todeconstruct. And one of the
reasons I wrote my book is notjust to reframe what the Bible
says about hell, but actually tozoom out and say, if there's no
Hell, what is salvation? BecauseI'll tell you what if, if, if

(25:00):
hell is more of a metaphor, thensalvation can't just mean going
to heaven. If salvation, if oneway or another, all people will

(25:55):
be reconciled to God, thensalvation has to be a this
worldly reality or it doesn'treally mean much at all. And so
part of the reason I wrote thebook was to help people not only
deconstruct what the Bible saysabout hell, but also understand,
okay, if there's no Hell, like,what is the spirituality of
Jesus for us? Then, because it'snot just to get out of hell. Out
of it's not just a get out ofhell free card. It's good. News

(26:17):
this life and the way we live inthis life.

Joshua Johnson (26:20):
So then when Jesus talks about hell or
Gehenna, what's he talkingabout? Then Okay,

Unknown (26:27):
so I'll try to do this quickly. So I have a whole
chapter in the book called Hellon Earth, and I think that's the
simplest way to say it is, Ibelieve he's talking about hell
on earth Gehenna. So a lot ofpreachers will say, Well, how
could there be no hell? BecauseJesus talks about hell more than
anybody. Now, what Jesusactually talks about more than
anybody is Gehenna. And first ofall, I think it's really sad

(26:47):
that our Bibles all translatethe word Gehenna hell, because
the word literally means theValley of hanoum. And I could
just imagine, just think abouthow different some of these
passages would read if it saidlike repent, or you'll be thrown
into the valley of hanouminstead of hell, you know that
that would it hits theimagination differently, because

(27:08):
we have a particular mentalmodel for hell that might not be
the same one as Jesus hasoriginal hearers. And what we
should know is that most ofthese people knew their Bibles,
and they would have known thatJesus did not make that metaphor
up. I don't think Jesus wasactually talking about the
literal Valley, although it wasa literal Valley. The Valley of
hanoum is a valley outside ofJerusalem. But Jesus was using a

(27:29):
metaphor that he borrowed fromthe prophet Jeremiah. Jeremiah
in I believe Jeremiah seven saysthat the day is coming when the
Valley of hanoum Gehenna willbecome a valley of slaughter,
because the dead bodies will bestacked so high there will be no
more room in Gehenna for thedead. So this is not a gentle

(27:50):
image. This is an intense, scaryimage. But what's it about?
Well, Jeremiah was prophesyingjust before the historical
cataclysm of the Babylonianscoming to destroy Jerusalem and
the temple. And he wasprophesying that unless we get
our act together and get in linewith God's ways, that unless we

(28:10):
turn away from our violence, ournationalism, our despising of
the poor, we're amassing weaponsof war and we're not caring for
the orphans and the widows likeGod called us, and that as a
result of that, we are going tobe destroyed, not in the
afterlife, but by Babylon inthis life. That was what Gehenna
meant for Jeremiah. So now youfast forward 600 years later,
and now they've rebuiltJerusalem. They've rebuilt the

(28:33):
temple. But Jesus uses thismetaphor again and says, The
kingdom of God is upon. Yourepent. The kingdom of God is at
hand. The alternative either weembrace God's vision of the
kingdom of God, which, by theway, Jesus unpacks as a world
where the poor are blessed, thehungry are filled, a vision
where we see the face of Christin the least of these we welcome

(28:55):
the stranger. We right. This isthe vision the kingdom of God.
Vision, not a not a vision forthe next world, but a vision for
what kind of world are we goingto build? It's God's dream for
this world, the kingdom of God,or Jesus, says the alternate to
that is Gehenna. And just asshortly after Jeremiah
prophesied, Babylon destroyedJerusalem in the temple, 40

(29:18):
years after the life of Jesus,in AD 70, Jerusalem and the
temple were destroyed for thesecond time in history, but not
by Babylon, but by Rome. Andjust as in the first time, the
historian Josephus tells us thatthe Valley of hinojom actually
was filled with the bodies ofJerusalem's dead. And so Gehenna
actually happened. Jesus said itwould happen, and then 40 years

(29:41):
later, it did happen. And Idon't think it happened in the
afterlife. I think hell was onearth. And Matthew, who uses the
term Gehenna, the most of thegospel writers, wrote his book
to the Jewish Diaspora who hadfled the destruction of
Jerusalem. And so they werejust, they were very aware of

(30:02):
that destruction, that historic.
It changed their lives. That wastheir civilization in a heap of
rubble that they might have hadfamily members whose bodies were
in the valley of hinom. Andwhen, when they were reading
that this was helping givecontext and perspective, as, How
could God let this happen? Whywould something like this
happen? And and so, yeah,Jesus's prophecy was a warning,

(30:23):
because God does not want us toexperience those consequences.
God wants something better forus. God has a vision of love. He
wants us to bring heaven toearth. He wants us to pray as on
Earth as it is in heaven. And sothat was the mission of Jesus.
And I think Gehenna is what youget in the world when we refuse
to embrace God's dream for theworld.

Joshua Johnson (30:47):
That's going to lead us to some questions of
like, what does that look likefor us living today to bring
heaven to earth? And so we don'tcreate Hell on Earth. But before
that, I think one of the thingsyou said before in your last
answer, is that one of thereasons you wrote the book,
people are wondering now, ifthere isn't Hell, if there is

(31:09):
going to be everybody is goingto be redeemed and reconciled,
made new in Christ forever, thenwhat is. The good news, and what
is the gospel, and why did Jesushave to die? I know that
everybody's wondering that. Youget that question all the time,
so

Unknown (31:26):
figured out a better answer, a shorter, more succinct
answer for it. By now, I thinkthere's a few ways to talk about
the gospel. I think so whenJesus in Luke four, Jesus
explained his ministry and whyhe came, and he said that he
came to preach good news to thepoor, liberation for the
oppressed, to set the captivesfree. And so from one angle, I

(31:48):
think the gospel is theliberation of the oppressed.
It's good news for the poor.
It's not the gospel, it's thatGod is with us, especially the
most vulnerable, the most out,the people that the world is not
with. That's who God is with. Ithink that's part, that's a big
part of the gospel. I thinkanother thing I would say is
that the gospel is mean, onereally simple, that you're

(32:10):
loved, that you're deserving oflove, that you are worthy of
love right now, that you'reBeloved. One of my favorite
gospel images that I reflect onin the book is of Jesus in His
baptism, that when Jesus isbaptized, it says that heaven
was torn open and that he heardthe voice of God. So Jesus has
an ecstatic vision, a mysticalvision of God. I don't think
when it says Heaven is torn openagain, I don't heaven. I think

(32:34):
we have to get away from heavenbeing the place we go when we
die. Heaven is God's space when,when the Bible says that we're
citizens of heaven, that doesn'tmean that we're the kinds of
people that are going to go toheaven when we die. That means
we're the kinds of people whoare meant to represent God here
on Earth. That's what thatmeans. And so when Heaven was
torn open, in other words,heaven is with us and all around

(32:55):
us. It's, it's, it's where Godis active right now, but we're
not always aware of it. And forsome of us, God feels very
distant. And in this moment, inhis baptism, God was very near,
and Jesus heard the voice of Godsay, You are My beloved Son.
With you, I am well pleased. AndJesus heard that before he had
preached a single sermon, beforehe had forgiven anybody, before

(33:16):
he had done any miracles, beforehe had done anything at all. And
in some ways, I think Christianspirituality is as simple as
believing that message that wastrue about Jesus is also true
about every one of us, that weare God's beloved children, and
God is pleased with us exactlyas we are. We don't have to do
anything to be loved. I don'tthink you need to be saved in

(33:39):
order to be loved. Being savedis just another way of
describing the moment that youcome to know that you are
already loved, that you havealways been loved. You have to
earn it. You just have tobelieve it and receive it. It's
good news. It's that you areloved. But then the reason I
started with the liberation ofthe oppressed is that if the
good news is that everybody isloved by God, then that sends us

(34:01):
back into the world, becausewe've realized that we've
ordered the world in such a waythat many people do not
experience that belovedness. Weact as if some people matter
more than other people, andthat's why in the kingdom of
God, Jesus always started withthe poor. It wasn't trickle down
economics. It was always TrickleUp. It was always God is for
everybody. But if God is foreverybody, then that means he's

(34:22):
especially with those peoplethat society is often aligned
against and oppressing. And so Ithink the gospel compels us to
preach that good news,especially to the poor and
vulnerable. But yeah, I wouldsay that the good news is is our
unconditional, unmerited,belovedness. That's the grace of
God. So why did Jesus die? Ithink there's a lot of different

(34:44):
ways to talk about this, and Ithink the easiest where I would
just start, and I don't thinkthis exhausts the topic, but I
think where we should start iswith the acknowledgement that
Jesus didn't just die. Jesus waskilled. Jesus was actually more
accurately executed.

(35:04):
Specifically, Jesus was executedas an enemy of the state by the
Empire. And for many of us, ouratonement theology has nothing
to do with the reason Jesus waskilled as an enemy of the state.
He could have died in any oldway to be a sacrifice for sin.
Instead, he died as someone inopposition to Empire, fighting
for a better world, fighting forthe kingdom of God on the side

(35:26):
of the least of these. And so Ithink where we should start is

(36:31):
that Jesus died as every greatradical prophet does. Jesus died
for what he lived for. And soyou can't disconnect his death
from his life and his ministry.
If Jesus said, I came to preachgood news to the poor and
liberation to the oppressed,that's why he died. We always
kill those people.

Joshua Johnson (36:52):
That's true.
That's what the

Unknown (36:53):
world does. The World crucifies the poor and the
oppressed and anyone that daresto stand with them. And so
that's the first, I think,reason. And when we get away and
we make it about a metaphorical,or, sorry, a metaphysical,
transactional thing with God, Ithink we're getting away from
the actual thing that Jesus bledand died for, which was the

(37:15):
kingdom of God.

Joshua Johnson (37:15):
Then what does it look like to live in the
kingdom of God? Here and now,today, in this time where you
have seen this, this fear ofpunishment, the theology of
fear, take root and take hold,especially in America at the
moment, and we see it over andover again take place. What does

(37:37):
it look like to bring heaven toearth and to see the kingdom of
God flourish in a place likethis. I

Unknown (37:45):
think that's the work.
I think first of all, you'reasking the right question. I
think that is the question ofthat we should all be asking,
that churches should be asking,that Christians should be
asking, and I think we're notall going to answer it the same
way, because we're all going tohave different callings and
passions and directions somepeople will devote their entire
lives. Their answer will be, I'mgoing to fight for the end of
the death penalty. Right? That'sShane Claiborne. For instance,

(38:05):
Shane Claiborne is he is zeroedin on and like standing up for
the people that are on deathrow, saying this punitive
society that we've created doesnot reflect the love and justice
of God, and that's what it lookslike for him. But that's not
going to be everybody. Jamartisby, he talks about racism,
systemic racism, whitesupremacy, anti blackness, and

(38:27):
that is, he said, this does notreflect the kingdom, you know,
other people. Sheila Gregortalks about the ways that
patriarchy hurts women in thechurches that actually that, you
know, if Jesus is a liberator ofthe oppressed, 50% of our
society is actually oppressed inmany ways because we have these
patriarchal cultures that holdwomen down. It could look like a

(38:49):
million different things. I dothink that in a moment right now
where we are in the UnitedStates experiencing an increase
in authoritarianism and fascismand militarism. I think it looks
like being very clear that thosethat that dominant violent
suppression of freedom andliberation and asserting order

(39:12):
and hierarchy does not reflectGod's heart, that even though
there's a lot of Christians thatare standing up and saying, Yes,
this we there's an antiChristian. We need to for them.
Christianity looks like law andorder. Those things are almost
interchangeable. But I thinkChristianity looks like
liberation for the oppressed.
And so I think once you getcaptured by that vision, it

(39:34):
could take you into untoldplaces. For me, it means
speaking up really clearly forqueer people who have been often
oppressed by the church and theworld. So I don't know, I think
that that's where you've got tolisten to the sound of the
genuine in yourself. But a lotof us haven't even been, I
think, unleashed, to be able tolisten to, okay, what does it

(39:55):
look like for me to be a forceof liberation in this world to
stand where Jesus stood? Whowould Jesus be standing with
right now? That's that is thequestion of spirituality that we
have to, I think, work out withsome fear and trembling, but I
think many of us haven't evengotten to that question because
we're so worried about justmaking sure that we're saved and
we're going to the right placewhen we die. But the work of

(40:15):
spirituality isn't in theafterlife. It's right. It's
right here now, and that's whyright now, in a time when
fascism and authoritarianism andviolence and division are on the
rise, more and more Christiansare saying Jesus is coming back
soon. That's what I'm hearingfrom a lot of evangelicals.
They're releasing new hitsingles, Forrest Frank's new
song, Jesus is coming back soon.
It's all Jesus is coming backsoon. It's a spirituality of
escapism, a spirituality oftribalism, because it's Jesus is

(40:39):
coming back soon for us, for myteam, right? It's not a
spirituality of justice andflourishing in this world. What
if? What if nobody's coming tosave us? What if, actually, this
isn't about getting the hell outof here. It's about getting the
hell out of this world. It's andstaying here and rolling up our

(41:00):
sleeves and doing the work of,okay, maybe none of us are going
anywhere. Maybe we have toactually figure out how to live
with each other in a world ofneighbors, in a world of people
who believe different things,who look different ways, maybe
we have to figure out how tolove one another. Is there a

Joshua Johnson (41:18):
way that you have found, I know you've been
able to do this in your life andfor people around you, how do we
get that certainty thinking likeI am certain that it is about
the afterlife, it is aboutwhat's next. It is not about
what's here and now, and sowhatever I do here and now, only

(41:40):
what I believe matters, not whatI do matters. How do we get that
out of us? How do we, like,start to shake it, especially
when it's it's almost like,embedded in our bones, and it's
almost DNA, like, is there theshreds of that, is there a way
to start to decompress fromthat? What does that look like

(42:05):
for people? I

Unknown (42:06):
think that's a first of all, very common question. I
think a lot of us wrestle withthat, and I don't know that
there's an easy answer. I thinkthe way that we change is slowly
and one thought at a time. And.
I do think that that certaintymindset that rigid. I mean,
there's fundamentalism inprogressive Christianity. You
know, we can, we can still bringthose rigid and I try, in my
book, to be I try to reallyencourage people to engage

(42:30):
curiosity. And I don't want topresent like, Okay, I'm ditching
the old dogmas. And here's thenew dogmas. I'm ditching the old
rigid formulas. Here's some newrigid formulas. I don't think
that that's helpful. I thinkthat the answer is coming to the
place where you actually canlisten to yourself, and you can
listen to your intuition andyour conscience and the voice of
love inside of you, and learningto listen to that voice of love
inside of you that many of uswere actually told to drown out.

(42:52):
Many of us the things that I'msaying, I tend to this is what I
tend to hear from people when Isay things like what I've been
saying on this podcast, I don'ttend for people to say, I have
never thought anything likethat, and you are blowing my
mind right now with these newideas. You know, what people
tend to say is, I thought I wasthe only one that felt that way,
and I didn't know it was okay tofeel that way. You are. They'll

(43:14):
say, you're giving words tothings that I have been thinking
and feeling. But I didn't knowit was okay. I didn't have
permission to say that out loud,and you're saying it out loud,
what feels very true to me, alot of what I'm saying right
now, I it felt wrong to me atsix and seven years old that God
would send a child to hell fromanother country who just hadn't
ever heard the name of Jesus.

(43:36):
That felt wrong to me, that Iremember asking my Sunday School
teacher about it and gettingsome convoluted answer, oh,
maybe Jesus can send him a dreamor, you know, that's what we're
for. We're missionaries, and wehave to send missionaries there
so that the whole world willknow. None of their answers
actually sat right with me. AndI did a bunch of theological
work, and now I've got twomaster's degrees. And here I am,
38 years old, and I'm back like,you know what seven year old

(43:58):
Brian. He was so real for thatthat question was on point. He
was right actually all alongthat that love and compassion
impulse inside him, he shouldhave followed that instead of
suppressing it. And so I thinkgetting in touch with that and
learning how to listen to thatis a big part of this. I think
punishment makes it hard,because hell is, as we've
mentioned, a major controlfactor. Because if the stakes

(44:19):
are that high, there's no roomfor lack of certainty. When hell
is on the table, you've you gotto be pretty freaking certain
you're not going there, youknow. And so that, I think
poking holes in Hell is reallyimportant to even be able to
give yourself that permission tobe curious and to color outside
the lines, because if coloringoutside the lines could get you
tortured forever, you're nevergoing to do it. And so for me,

(44:42):
studying it was helpful, seeingit as ridiculous and like, at
the point where now, if I hearhealth theology, I'm not like, I
really am not like, Wait, whatif I'm wrong? I don't really
think that anymore. I mostly amlike, man. I can't believe I
ever thought that. But it tooksome time to get there. I do
think that there was a periodwhere to replace, yeah, I think

(45:03):
exclusionary, fear based beliefswith more open hearted, curious
beliefs that you don't havecertainty as your foundation. It
takes time. And I think when youhave certain thoughts, you just
have to kind of coach yourselfthrough them and replace those
thoughts. And one thing that'sbeen helpful, I do have some,
actually, an exercise in my bookabout this, but long story
short, to just go through anexercise of judging the fruit of

(45:24):
that belief. Okay, I'm going togo to hell for believing the
wrong thing. Or my loved oneswho don't believe in Jesus,
they're going to go to hell. Isthat true? Do I absolutely know
that that's true? How does thatwhat does that do to me, that
belief? Does that lead me deeperinto love, or does that create
more fear and alienation? Whowould I be without that belief
and actually then coachingyourself? Okay, maybe that's
actually not something that Ishould devote myself to. Maybe

(45:45):
here's a better thing for me.
The question I use now with mybeliefs is not, is this right?
Because at the end of the day,there's not really a way to be
certain about the correctness ofthese metaphysical or
theological beliefs, but whatyou can ask is, Is this making
me more loving? And so that's, Ithink, a better question at the
end of the day, when it comes toour beliefs, I don't think when
hell is on the table, you betterbe right, but when this isn't

(46:07):
about a God test and acing thequestions at the end of the day,
it's about, Am I growing inlove?

Joshua Johnson (46:16):
How has this changed your parenting? How do
you parent differently now,

Unknown (46:20):
well, I'll tell you what, I don't have some weird
pressure that like, Oh no, mykids are getting older, and they
haven't, you know, prayed asalvation prayer. I think I
don't feel the need to even pushspirituality on them. They know
that I love Jesus, that I care alot about this sort of thing. So
far, they're not that into it.
But I think at some point theymay show interest. But if they
don't, I'm not afraid of that.

(46:40):
I'm more interested in what kindof people they become. And if
using God language and Jesuslanguage is helpful in that
journey, some point they maythey'll just have to need that
for themselves. What I don'twant to do is scare them into
needing that. It takes thepressure off. I will say that I
was raised and I get into thisin the book, how when you

(47:01):
believe that your children areborn innately evil and deserving
of hell and punishment, thatdoes, in fact, affect the way
that you parent them. You areexpected to be a punishing
parent and punish your childrento kind of beat the hell out of
them, essentially, in thatliteral sense. Of like, yeah,
that's my job to, like, enforcethese I don't believe punishment

(47:23):
is effective in personalrelationships. I don't believe
punishment gets people tochange. I believe it's love and
connection that causes people tochange. Now, natural
consequences might be are onething, but I don't I try not to
punish my children. They canexperience consequence.
Boundaries are important.
Children need boundaries, andeverybody learns through through

(47:43):
consequences, but arbitrarypunishments. I personally that's
been something that I'vedeconstructed, and I really
recommend Dr Becky Kennedy'swork on this, and her book good
inside, has been really helpful.
But what I found is that thatcan be really challenging,
because I received a paradigmwhere I deserved punishment.
Everybody deserved punishment,and I was punished as a kid, I

(48:05):
was spanked. And so often, whenI'm showing my kids grace and
trying to lean into connectioninstead of punishment, I might
be thinking or feeling like thisfeels wrong. Actually, it would
feel like the righteous thing topunish these kids, because
that's what happened to me. Andmy inner child feels like this
isn't fair at all, and so it hastaken some work of reminding
myself in those moments andcoaching myself through it,

(48:27):
reminding myself, No, I didn't Ididn't deserve punishment then,
and I don't deserve punishmentnow. And what my children need
is not a punisher and anauthoritarian. What they need is
a father, and they need me toconnect with them in relation.
And as I walk myself throughthat, it often will involve even
repenting to them andapologizing for the ways that
things still show up in myparenting that I don't think

(48:47):
really accurately reflect myvalues or or the heart of God to
them, because, yeah, I think Imy punishment or my parenting
still does often includepunishment against my, you know,
better impulses, but that justgives me the opportunity to to
do repair work, which is, Ithink, also an important part of
human relationships.

Joshua Johnson (49:06):
Yeah, repair work is very important. You
know, I facilitated a discussionaround Luke, 15, prodigal son on
Sunday, and it was interestingas so many people as they were
getting into the story thatJesus told about this son who
stole, you know, he took theinheritance money, and, you
know, spent all the money onprostitutes. And he he feels

(49:30):
shame, and he says, you know, myfather's servants eat better
than me. I'm going to go back.
He thinks that he's going to bepunished. It's very much of a
punishing type of mentality, andwhat he gets when he comes home
is not more punishment, it'sjust love and compassion. So in
the New Living Translation, itsays that the father met him

(49:52):
with love and compassion, andthat shifted everything, and
that changed him and changedeverything. It's the love and
compassion. But so many people,as we were discussing it,
thought a if it was me, it wasit would be about punishment. If
it was me, I thought I would bepunished. It is shocking what

(50:12):
this father does to people witha paradigm of punishment. Of
like, this is the way that wethink. This is the way we think
God will react. But to see asomebody who represents God in
the story of Jesus telling it,and there's no punishment there,
it's it actually is shocking. Ifyou look at it, it's not just a

(50:37):
cute little story. It'sshocking. It's love and
compassion. It is not,

Unknown (50:42):
doesn't even let him get the words out. That's my
favorite part in the story. Iswhen, yeah, the prodigal son is
trying to, like, say, I havesinned against you and against
God, and the father's like, Idon't, you know you're good
actually, you know, like, you'remy son, and you don't have to
say any of that. Like, I'm just,I'm just glad you're here. No,
that's such a beautiful story,and it really was meant to

(51:03):
reframe our ideas about God. Andit's so sad to me that that was
not the controlling image of Godthat I really received, because
that image of God doesn't reallysquare with hell. It really
doesn't.

Joshua Johnson (51:16):
Is there a verse that you used to hold on really
tightly and knew theinterpretation that then has
shifted for you and go, Oh, Isee that differently now, and
you hold on to it in a differentspace. So many,

Unknown (51:30):
so many, so many, so many. There's one that I reflect
on actually in the book, I haveonly one verse. Which side is
done. I have a tattoo with adagger that says Galatians 220 I
forget which. Oh, it's this onehere. Anyway, Galatians 220 is
tattooed on my collarbone, andthat verse says, I'm crucified
with Christ. Nevertheless, Ilive, not I, but Christ who

(51:53):
lives in me. I kind of go intomy my paradigm shift with that
verse. Long story short, I thinkmany of us received a
spirituality of, yeah, not I,but Christ. And what that really
meant was that our self didn'treally matter. We were supposed
to shrink ourselves and reallydisappear into this Christian

(52:14):
identity, not I Christ. Youknow, I no longer live. It's
Christ who dwells in. Me and theway that I see that now, I don't
think this idea of beingcrucified with Christ, yes, the
spiritual path is one of dyingand rising with Christ.
Nevertheless, I live, and Istill see so much beauty, beauty
in that spiritual path. But it'snot it's not to lose my
authentic self. I was told thatcouldn't follow my heart,

(52:37):
couldn't really listen to myintuition. My heart was
desperately wicked. There was noemphasis on self love in the
world that I grew up in. ButJesus tells us to love our
neighbor as ourselves, and it'simpossible to do that if you
don't love yourself. And so howwas I supposed to square that
with this idea of dying to self?
And how I think about that nowis that it's it When, when, when
we die to self. It's not thetrue self that dies we have. So

(52:59):
there are so many things that wegrasp onto to establish our
identity, to establish ourdesire to be loved that we cling
to that say love me because I'mthis, because I'm that, because
I'm a man, because I'm white,because I'm a Christian, because
I'm you know, and we hold on toall these superficial aspects of
the self that we try to carveout our identity, but the thing

(53:22):
that's always true about us isthat we are beloved by God. I
believe that that is the trueself that's in every one of us.
There is the image of Godstamped in every one of us that
we are all deeply loved by God.
We don't have to earn it, but wetry. And so we build these
superficial selves trying tomake ourselves lovable when we

(53:42):
never had to do that, like Godwas always ready to run out to
us and just say, you, I don'tneed you to say anything like,
I'm I love you. I'm just gladyou're here. That was always the
story for us. But we have thesesuperficial identities. But when
we die, to those, when we die,and a lot of times they have a
painful death, like when Ideconstructed and stepped away

(54:03):
from pastoring, it felt like apart of me dying. I thought
Pastor Brian in many ways, thatfelt like who I was. And then my
marriage ended and I gotdivorced, and husband Brian felt
like who I was. These felt likesome real deaths that made me
less less of myself, less of whoI was less of a man, less of a
man of God. But that's not true,because none of those things

(54:24):
were who I really was, who Ireally was, was beloved by God.
And what I have found is thatwhen I experience death of these
aspects of my ego that I hold upto try to gain belovedness. When
those things die, the true selfbecomes more and more alive. And
so how I see that verse now, youknow when, when, yes, Jesus

(54:44):
calls us to come and die, butwhenever Jesus calls us to come
and die, he is at the very sametime calling us to rise and come
up out of our tombs a lot morealive than ever before. And so
Christ in me, I don't see aslike well, I don't matter. I
can't listen to myself. Briandoesn't matter. There is no
Brian, only Jesus matters.
That's not how I think aboutthat. I think of Christ in me as

(55:06):
the the most holy and divinepart of myself, the part in me
that that can never die, thebeloved part of me. That's the
hope of glory. And so I have, Ihave discovered God more in the
parts of myself that I didn'tknow that I was allowed to
listen to listen to before. Andso, yeah, that's just how I
think about that verse now,which is a little different than
kind of this sob story of selfdeprivation. I think that maybe

(55:28):
I would have thought about it inthe past. That's

Joshua Johnson (55:32):
beautiful. I have a couple of quick questions
here at the end. One, if you goback to your 21 year old self,
Brian, what advice would yougive?

Unknown (55:39):
I'd tell him to read my new book. No, so I'm joking, but
seriously, I did write in manyways. I wrote the book that I
wish I had, and I would tell Iwould tell him everything that I
just I was, yeah, I guess Iwould say, you you don't have to
be good, you know, maybe I'dread him like Mary Oliver's
poem, wild geese. You know youdon't have to crawl on your

(56:00):
knees 1000 miles repenting forGod to love you. Yeah, I think I
would want him to be able tolisten to himself and what was
going on on the inside, and notthink that you had to do
something to yourself to beloved. And it's funny because in
evangelicalism, we do talk aboutthat. We talk about grace. We do
say you don't have to earn God'slove, but then we ultimately

(56:23):
have all these restrictions.
It's there's all asteriskseverywhere.

Joshua Johnson (56:27):
It's true.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend

Unknown (56:32):
who I've been my reading is all over the place
lately, although I am readingthis really, this book, reason,
faith and revolution by TerryEagleton is really good. It's
kind of heady. Terry Eagleton islike a leftist Christian
philosopher, and he makes areally good case for why
progressive people could stillget a lot out of Christianity,

(56:53):
which is, I think, aninteresting book that I'm
enjoying right now. Also I'mreading willie james Jennings
commentary on acts, which isreally good. He's sort of a
black liberation theologian. Ithink maybe the president of the
Yale theology department, maybe,don't quote me on that, but
he's, he's, I think the seminarypresident at Yale, I think,

(57:16):
anyway, that's a really greatcommentary that i. Been
enjoying. I kind of had beenperusing like and studying some
of the book of Acts, which iskind of fun because I've spent
most of my time lately in thegospels, so kind of like
venturing acts a little for fun.
Watching, oh, here's a funrecommendation. I recently
watched the show dying for sexwith I think the actress is
Michelle Williams, the girl fromDawson's Creek. Yeah, have you

(57:38):
seen

Joshua Johnson (57:40):
that? I haven't seen it, but yeah,

Unknown (57:43):
bro, really, really incredible show about so
basically, long story short, awoman finds out she has stage
four cancer and she's dying, andshe realizes what she needs to
do is leave her husband and herbad marriage, and she spends the
last bit of her life before shedies, trying to figure out how
to have pleasurable sex. Becauseshe's never really, like, had an

(58:04):
orgasm. And so it is very muchthis journey of self discovery.
Because so many people are soconfused. Like, wait a second,
you're dying. Like, why do youcare about this? But in her
mind, it was like, why? Whathave I been doing my whole life?
Like, why have I not beenactually listening to myself and
learning about myself, and I'vebeen like in this trance. And so
in some ways, in this pathtowards dying, she becomes more

(58:24):
fully alive. And the whole showis really incredible. The end
parts where her cancer begins toreally accelerate. And okay, so
spoiler, it's about her death.
The show is about her death. AndI mean, I wept like a baby at
the end of the show. I'll justsay that. So it just be
prepared. This is a veryemotional recommendation, but if
you're, if you're up for theemotional journey, I think it's

(58:44):
quite something.

Joshua Johnson (58:47):
Hellbent is out anywhere books are sold,
congratulations. It is a USAToday bestseller. So it's
hitting a nerve. People arebuying it. How could people get
it? Where can they connect withyou? What do you hope? Yeah, get
from the book so you

Unknown (59:02):
can get it. I think the best place is always at your
local bookstore. It should bethere, probably, if not, you can
order it from them. But youknow, if you want it quicker,
it's, of course, available onAmazon. It's also on Audible. I
did, I recorded the audio, whichis, I think I've heard some
people really love the audio,actually,

Joshua Johnson (59:17):
like, yeah, I listened. I listened to it, and
I love i i loved it. It justfelt like you were like, now
just talking to me, it was, Ilove the way that you read your
book. That didn't feel like areading of a book. It felt like
a conversation. It was perfect.
You did a great

Unknown (59:34):
wow, that's really meaningful. Thanks so much. Man,
I wanted that, and so I feltgood about it, but I, you know,
I'm, I was curious about otherpeople's perception of it. So,
yeah, the audio is another greatoption, of course, on like
Kindle or digital available aswell. So yeah, I think, you
know, in some ways, this book, Iwant to help people shift out of
a paradigm of punishment. If youbelieve that God must be a

(59:57):
punisher and that the gospelonly makes sense. If God is
going to punish people, then Iwant to suggest to you that you
are possibly missing on adeeper, richer gospel, and, and,
and it's hard to even imagine agospel without punishment, but I
think when we begin to I thinksome, some really neat stuff
opens up. And so this book isabout deconstructing hell, but

(01:00:17):
it goes beyond. This. Isn't justabout what the Bible says about
hell. This is, I really want tohelp people shift out of a whole
paradigm of punishment into aspirituality of loving
connection, because that's whatlife is all about, and I don't
think we should miss it. So,yeah, it is really encouraging
that it's connecting withpeople. Because I know that I
said a lot of things in the bookthat you're you're just not
supposed to say in Christianpublishing. And you know, to

(01:00:39):
include, yeah, I use the F word.
I talk about how Jesus wouldhave loved trans people. I call
out American complicity in ingenocide and global war. And
those are all things that Ithink were important for me to
say out loud that would maybe,you know, get a lot of books,
not, you know, not shared bytheir pastors, I guess. But I
yeah, I hope people, I hopepeople expose themselves to

(01:01:03):
these ideas, despite the factthat 70% of my Instagram
following said that it wasdifficult to purchase the book
because it triggered religiousguilt. In other words, they felt
like they were doing nomineething by even engaging with this
topic. Because, oh, Is God gonnabe okay with the fact that I
might think that maybe, like,Hell's not a thing, like I'm I'm
literally scared of God evenbuying the book. And what I
would say is, if you resonatewith that feeling at all, then

(01:01:25):
this is definitely for you.
Excellent.

Joshua Johnson (01:01:30):
Well, Brian, thank you for this conversation.
Really enjoyed talking with you,and thank you for bringing us
into a place of less fear andpunishment, into a place of love
and connection, so that we couldactually bring heaven to earth
and see something of love andconnection in this world, that
we could stop this, the hell ofgenocide and fear mongering,

(01:01:52):
polarization, just hate on allsides and the dehumanization of
so many people that We have inthis world into a place of
recognizing that there isstamped on every single person,
the image of God, that they areeverybody is a beloved child of
God, and that we could actuallysee people like God sees people

(01:02:14):
into a place where there's love,there's compassion, and we can
connect with others. So. Thankyou. It was fantastic.

Unknown (01:02:19):
Thanks, man, appreciate you having me. Joshua, you.