December 2, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode, I talk with Dr. Mark Yarhouse and Dr. Julia Sadusky about the rapidly expanding language of emerging sexual identities and what it means for the young people we care about. We explore why new terms keep appearing, how identity forms in adolescence, and what teens are actually trying to express when they use language many of us have never heard before. Rather than reacting with fear or reducing anyone to a label, Mark and Julia help us rethink our posture, moving toward curiosity, presence, and trust instead of anxiety and quick judgments. We dig into discipleship, belonging, and how to walk with teens in a way that reflects the steady, un-fragile heart of God. If you’re a parent, pastor, or leader trying to navigate this moment with wisdom, compassion, and clarity, this conversation offers a hopeful and deeply grounded way forward.
Mark A. Yarhouse, Psy.D., is a clinical psychologist who specializes in conflicts tied to religious identity and sexual and gender identity. He assists people who are navigating the complex relationship between their sexual or gender identity and Christian faith. He is a Professor of Psychology at Wheaton College, where he runs the Sexual and Gender Identity (SGI) Institute and the Mental Health Collective. He is an award-winning teacher and researcher and is the past recipient of the Gary Collins Award for Excellence in Christian Counseling. He was a past participant with the Ethics and Public Policy Center think tank in Washington, DC, and he was named Senior Fellow with the Council of Christian Colleges and Universities to conduct a study of students navigating sexual identity concerns at Christian colleges and universities. He has served for over a decade as the Chair of the task force on LGBT issues for Division 36 (Psychology of Religion and Spirituality) of the American Psychological Association.
Dr. Julia Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton, CO. She is also an author, consultant, speaker, and adjunct professor. Dr. Sadusky has done extensive research and clinical work in sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma-informed care. She earned a bachelor's degree from Ave Maria University and a master's degree and doctorate in Clinical Psychology from Regent University. She has authored several books around human sexuality and gender with Dr. Mark Yarhouse and has authored several books herself helping equip parents to teach kids and teens about sexuality in developmentally-appropriate ways.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julia Sadusky (00:31):
The heart of God is not fragile and is really
ready to step into complexitywith people, into the trenches,
with people in a way that Ithink can be hard to mirror,
which is the blessing of notbeing God and trusting God's
presence with these young peopleas we imperfectly show up. You.
John,
Joshua Johnson (01:03):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, you know,
navigating identity has neverbeen more complex or more
charged than it is for a youngperson today, the language
around sexuality and gender isexpanding faster than most of us
(01:25):
can keep up with, and for manyparents, pastors and leaders,
the ground feels like it'sshifting beneath our feet, but
beneath all the noise, theonline pressures and the
debates, there are realteenagers trying to name their
lived experience and find aplace to belong. So in this
conversation, I sit down with DrMark yarhouse and Dr Julius
(01:45):
sadusky to unpack the landscapeof emerging sexual identities,
not as cultural warriors ortheorists, but as people have
spent years sitting with youngadults, listening for what's
underneath the labels. We talkabout curiosity over cynicism,
how identity forms, why thelanguage keeps expanding, and
what it means to walk alongsideteenagers without fear, panic or
(02:07):
reductionism, and we press intothe deeper pastoral question,
how do we navigate and cultivatea discipleship that holds space
for belonging, honesty and thesteady, unfragile heart of God,
if you're a parent, if you're apastor, if you're a youth
leader, or simply someone tryingto understand the moment we're
living in. This episode is fullof clarity, nuance and real
(02:29):
hope. It's a guide for walkingwith people not around them and
learning to stand on the sameside of the net as they wrestle
with who they are and whothey're becoming. So join us.
Here is my conversation withMark yarhouse and Julius
sadusky. Dr, Mark yarhouse,welcome back to shifting
culture. Excited to have youback on and Dr, Julius sadusky,
(02:51):
it's so good to have you on aswell. So welcome and welcome to
shifting culture.
Mark Yarhouse (02:57):
Oh, thank you so much. Glad to be here. That's
great, people.
Joshua Johnson (03:01):
I'm really excited to dive into emerging
sexual identities, because it isa landscape that is emerging,
right? It's emergent, it's new.
It is growing, and the languageis growing, and the more
definitions are coming, it seemslike almost every day. So can
you just lay out the grand workfor us? What are sexual
identities? What are we talkingabout, and what is starting to
(03:22):
emerge?
Mark Yarhouse (03:25):
So sexual identity is the is when people
label themselves, eitherprivately, just thinking about
themselves, or publicly to otherpeople, they're telling you
about their underlyingattractions or their
orientation. So when someonesays that they're gay or lesbian
or even straight, they're usingsexual identity language,
(03:47):
another way to think about it.
Sometimes people call it sexualorientation identity just but
it's a little more streamlinedif you just say it's sexual
identity, but if it helps you toremember that's what they're
actually communicating, that'skind of what that word is. So
the common in this book, we callthem dominant language for
sexual identity would be gay,lesbian, bisexual. And then when
(04:09):
we talk about emerging, we'retalking about sort of, what's on
the horizon, what are some newways, new configurations of
sexual identity. So there's allkinds. The Trevor Project had
boasted over 100 reported sexualidentities among young people,
and then another 100 plus forgender identities. And so this
(04:30):
would be, you know, things likealong the ace spectrum of
asexuality, and there's a lot ofidentities underneath that,
whether it's gray sexual ordemisexual or pansexual,
omnisexual, there's just anumber of different variations
of sexual identity today,
Joshua Johnson (04:50):
in your book that we didn't really talk about
sexual identity until, what, the19th century or so, but we're
starting to come up with withmore sexual identities. Why do
you think that, really, we'reshifting into a broader breadth
of sexual orientationidentities? What does it look
like, and why do you think it'sstarting to emerge that there is
(05:12):
a diverse more diversity in thelanguage that we're using.
Unknown (05:16):
One of the things that we talk about in the book is
really how queer theory hasimpacted this conversation quite
a bit and and I think, shaped anexpanding landscape where people
are trying to get moreparticular and more precise in
terms. Terms of how they talkabout themselves. And so one of
the things we write about in thebook is micro, minoritized
(05:37):
identity, where people aretaking kind of sexual identity
and gender identity labels andapplying them together again to
try to account for what theywould describe as maybe the
uniqueness of their story, orthe uniqueness of their
experience of this. And I thinkas the gender identity labels
expand there, there was a feltneed for people to then shift
(06:00):
how we talk about sexualorientation and identity,
because we're not justreferencing male female binary.
There's now a reference point toall of these emerging gender
identities as well.
Joshua Johnson (06:11):
Can you unpack a little bit of then, what is
queer theory and why is itsomething that's been so
impactful in the way that wethink about identities and
language?
Mark Yarhouse (06:20):
So queer theory is has its roots in philosophy
and literature, traces back tomajor figures like Foucault, and
there's a number of academics inbetween those historical folks
and contemporary queertheorists. And so queer theory
is probably most known forwanting to scrutinize and
(06:43):
challenge existing norms,normative structures. You know,
a good example of this actuallywould have been years ago when
the Supreme Court ruled aroundmarriage, there were queer
members of the LGBTQ communitywho really didn't want gay
marriage because marriage wasviewed as kind of an
assimilationist strategy by themainstream gay community, as
(07:06):
identifying something that wassymbolic and valued within
society and the gay communitycould sort of be esteemed and
recognized as on par with so fora queer theorist, they're
looking at that saying, whywould you ever enter into
existing normative structuresthat elevate heterosexuality and
(07:27):
then you sort of assimilate intothat structure that they want to
look, look at that whole thingand say, No, that whole thing
needs to be deconstructed. We'renot subject to the, you know,
the normativities of existingsociety. We're not interested in
the binaries of existingsociety. These become sources of
oppression for people. So wetear all that down. So they're
(07:48):
not as interested in maybe theidentity, even the identity
first language. So in some ways,emerging sexual identities are
indebted to the role of queertheory historically. But they're
not asking for the same thing.
You know, they're they'rewanting to be more granular, and
as Julia talked about, thatmicro, minoritized way of
(08:09):
thinking about yourself? Well,queer theory is not as
interested in those categories,especially anything that would
be an alternative to a normallows the norm to stay in
power. So queer theory wants topush him against all of that.
Joshua Johnson (08:25):
If queer theory is not really interested in all
these, these micro minoritytypes of identity labels that
we're trying to find inourselves. What were the major
impacts of queer theory onreally, just the way that we're
starting to think and outside ofthe norm and the binary? What
(08:46):
was the major impact?
Unknown (08:47):
Yeah, I think you hit on it there. I mean, I mean just
the sense of a kind of endlessexpanse of opportunities for how
people will conceptualize genderreally does have an impact then
on how people think of who am Iromantically and or sexually
attracted to? Right? Because ifthe people across from me are
adopting labels that have thiswide expanse, then I can opt in
(09:11):
or out of labels that would bemore particular right to the
relationship with a personacross from me who would not
then identify with the binary inmany cases. And so I think that
that has had a pretty profoundimpact. I think with young
people today, what I see a lotis they're not even aware of how
much queer theory has shapedsome of this. Even if you know
(09:34):
they're reading on Reddit orother things, quotes from Judith
Butler and other kind of figuresin this space, they're not
actually aware of how thosequotes, where they're coming
from, how they're shaped byqueer theory, and then they're
applying them, I think, insometimes logically inconsistent
ways, right, in how they thinkabout themselves and how they
think about romanticrelationships or sexual
(09:56):
relationships moving forward
Joshua Johnson (09:58):
as we walk through life. And you know, this
is one thing that we have in ourlife, our sexual identities and
who we're attracted to and whatthat looks like. How do
identities, our own identities,start to emerge in our lives.
How do we start to form them?
How are they formed? Where arethey coming from? That's a
really interesting question.
Mark Yarhouse (10:19):
I mean, you know, I think many people would say
today that we're a society.
We're a point in history whereidentity is very central, very
much salient, to our sense ofperson. Hood, but that that
wouldn't have been the case formost of time, that is just not
the way people thought ofthemselves. You might be a man,
a husband, a father, but theidea of like identity being
(10:43):
associated with the sexualityand gender in the way that we're
talking about it would have justbeen foreign to a lot of people.
And I think it was probablyCharles Taylor, was one of the
first philosophers who reallyunpacked this idea that identity
has become such a central partof kind of how you configure
(11:05):
yourself, how you think aboutyourself, and the importance of
that. And so others have steppedinto that conversation, but I
would commend you, his writingwould be probably the most
extensive treatment of that sortof philosophically and
historically. I think where wetake it in a more contemporary
conversation, we draw on anotherphilosopher named Ian hacking.
(11:27):
He's a Canadian philosopher whopassed away just a couple of
years ago, and he talks moreabout how he has an interesting
essay called Making up people.
And sort of the idea is now hewas involved in demography,
where you categorize people, andhis observation was that people
(11:48):
respond to how they're beingcategorized, and that one of the
primary ways that we categorizepeople in Western societies is
actually through diagnosticnosology, and so we we end up
using labels like we used touse, like multiple personality
disorder came dissociativeidentity disorder, and we have
(12:08):
autism spectrum disorder, andthere was Asperger's for a
season, and now that's notthere, and we had gender
identity disorder, and nowthat's been removed so and may
his main point is, as you, asyou categorize people through
these diagnoses, there's a hecalled a looping effect of
different ways in whichdifferent things that happen as
(12:29):
a result of that, you Have thevery people who are being
categorized, and they knowthey're being categorized. They
know they're being diagnosed.
They know that they're part ofthe system. So they interact,
individually and as a group,with the ways in which language
is being used to sort ofcategorize them and put them in
this kind of box. And then youhave institutions like my
(12:50):
institution, and others and APAand other different groups that
interview them and study themand report on them. And then you
have what becomes conjecturalknowledge, or sort of taken for
granted realities. This is goingto be, what are people talking
on about on the view, or what'shappening on Jimmy Fallon and so
there, if you were to show upand say, Hey, I think there's
two genders, you would beoutside of, like, the current
(13:13):
cultural discourse of hundredsof genders and hundreds of
sexualities. And so then youhave experts finally in this
loop that get to determine whatcounts as real knowledge about
this topic, like how manygenders are there, or what's
going to be in the nextdiagnostic manual, and that's
how we ended up moving fromthinking of this as an identity
(13:35):
issue, gender identity to beinga dysphoric issue, a distress
issue. Or we went fromhomosexuality as a pathology to
removing it, you know. And soall of these are subject to
looping effects. And the onlyobservation we really made about
that for this conversationemerging sexual identities is
that they're not indebted toexperts. The way the dominant
(14:45):
sort of mainstream gay communitywas like they needed experts to
say it's no longer apsychopathology. Well, at 14 or
15, you know, you're indebted tothat history, but you're not
counting on mental healthprofessionals to validate you.
You're Springboarding off ofthat. You know you're you're, in
a sense, we say, you bypassexperts. You don't, you don't,
(15:07):
you're not subject to theiropinion, whereas in the past,
others would have been.
Joshua Johnson (15:14):
I want to take a broader look, then at the
specific type of culture, Ithink, is it more prominent to
see these emerging sexualidentities in in a more
individualistic society wherethey find things from within
themselves, rather than acollectivistic society? Have you
seen anything any differencethere? Or is it just really
(15:37):
emerging worldwide because ofour our global monocultural
culture that's starting tohappen because of we're all
connected. And for some reason,it seems like we're all part of
a similar culture.
Unknown (15:50):
And certainly mark you can speak to this too, but I've
seen that right. You know,sexual attractions of various
types and various directionsexist across cultures, across
history, and have been welldocumented. And the same thing
around experiences of genderdistress. And so it's not to say
that these experiences onlyexist in Western cultures. And
(16:11):
yet, the ways that I think we'reconceptualizing identity today
in Western culture. Or is shapedin a kind of profound way by our
own society and and I can justsay anecdotally in my work with
clients that some of my clientswho come out of more
collectivistic settings have acomplex experience with the
(16:31):
mainstream LGBT narrative today,that there can be a desire to
identify in some way with thecommunity in the sense that
there are, there are, perhaps,benefits in how much the public
discourse has been shaped aroundthis conversation in ways that
mean a teen can talk about thiswith their family, and their
parents have a reference pointfor some of these categories.
(16:53):
But as far as some of thelandscape that we see that's
micro minoritized. For instance,I think for some people, they
would be much more willing, in aless individualistic setting, to
say, No, I'm going to uselanguage that allows me to
communicate with people aroundme, and I'm going to forego
certain terms because they feelso caught up in a western
(17:16):
society that doesn't representsome of the values that are
important to me.
Joshua Johnson (17:21):
So as you said, now they're starting to say,
hey, we're free and we're opento be able to talk about these
things and to express who webelieve that we are at this
moment in time, as things maystay the same, they may shift
over time, if people start tocome to say, either parents or a
(17:43):
minister within the church, andthey're they're navigating some
of these issues of theiremerging sexual identity, what's
a posture that we could start tohelp people navigate These
sexual identities that they aretrying to navigate on the inside
and themselves,
Mark Yarhouse (18:02):
I think the basic posture, and let me contrast it
with what we're trying to avoidhere. Because I think, I think
sometimes when people hear, youknow, someone says, I'm an
aromantic Demi boy, or I'm a,you know, tri gender, gray,
sexual. I could imagine someonejust kind of like, oh, okay,
what if, like, eitherdumbfounded or incredulous, or
(18:26):
like, cynical or Here we go.
We're doing this. Like, are wereally signing up for this
anymore? Like, I think there'sthat's, that's obviously the
ministry posture. We're tryingto say, can we prevent that from
happening? You know, in realtime, this is a young person who
is saying, This is how I bestknow how to communicate what I'm
(18:46):
experiencing right now. And, youknow, should there be a broader
cultural engagement with thelanguage and the deconstruct and
deconstruction of norms? Andwhat do we do with that as
Christians in this space? Yes,but the person is in front of
you, right? So I think theposture is going to be one more
of curiosity, more of humility,asking better questions, you
(19:08):
know. And I think for both Julieand I, you know, we come at
these things as as psychologistswho are always wondering, always
curious, how does languagefunction for people? You know,
what? What does it serve forthem? And there are probably
ways in which the way we thinkabout ourselves and do things in
our life serves us, and we don'teven think about it, right? And
(19:31):
so here's a young person where,you know, identity, language and
categories almost function ascurrency for a lot of young
people. And it's it'scredibility, and it's
relationship, and it's sense ofself and personhood and sense of
community and sense of family,and so, yeah, to be a little bit
more attuned to, I think I'mjust curious what's compelling
(19:53):
and you know, what's you know,you could ask that in a kind of
direct way that feels almostantagonistic, or you could have
a posture of genuine opennessand curiosity, even though you
have no reference point forthis, because your generation
was never exposed to the broadvista of possibilities that are
that are available to a 14 or 15year old today. Well, that alone
(20:14):
should be something to becurious about, right? Versus, if
two were good enough for me,then two are good enough for
you. Like that posture is notgoing to really lend itself to
ministry.
Unknown (20:27):
I think another piece that comes up for me in this is,
you know, tone is everythingwith teenagers, I see a lot of
parents, a lot of pastors whoMark kind of mentioned this, but
asking the same question in adifferent tone, you know, has a
really different impact on ayoung person. So if I was to
say, you know, I know nothingabout this stuff, what the heck
are you talking about? Or if Isay, Gosh, I don't, I don't know
(20:50):
as much about this as you, Ithink, and I would love to hear
more about like, can you help meunderstand where you're coming
from on this, to be honest, thisis really new territory for me,
because I see a lot of people inministry and parents who very
much know that they are kind ofon their back foot here. And
because of that, they actuallydon't tend as much to be
(21:13):
antagonistic in some cases asthey tend to say nothing. And.
Then that also sends a messageright from Christian so we don't
have anything to offer you inthis landscape. And one of the
important pieces, I think, ofour posture too, is maybe This
distinguishes us from more of asecular paradigm, to not just
assume all of this is stressfree for young people and merely
(21:38):
liberating. I mean, many of theyoung people that I talk to feel
overwhelmed by the expandinglandscape, and they're trying to
figure out, how do I do mycalculus homework, while also in
kind of getting a sense for whoI am. And so I think as
Christian, Christians in thisspace, our posture can also be
one of holding space for thechallenges there for them and
(21:59):
saying, what questions do youhave about this language? What's
been challenging about it foryou, or what don't you kind of
align with? Is there anythingthat you don't quite get about
it, and that just creates spacefor critical thinking as well?
Joshua Johnson (22:13):
I mean, I know as we're walking through our
teenage years and our youth andour 20s, like we're trying on
different identities and groupsto be able to say, I'm finding
my tribe here. I find who I amand this spot. And sometimes
that works, and sometimes itdoesn't, and then I go to a
different spot. So in the theshifting landscape, sometimes of
(22:37):
people trying to figure outwhere they belong. And I think
probably belonging is part ofwhat is happening here, is we're
trying to figure out where Ibelong. Who am I? Where do I
belong, and how do I fit in thisworld? What does it look like to
walk people through somethingwhere they are trying to find
their tribe, their people, andwhere they belong?
Mark Yarhouse (22:57):
Well, I think walking with people again, it's
that, that curiosity about it, Ithink to Julia's point, I think
sometimes young people, one ofthe concerns that's been raised
is, Will young people pressed byothers to demonstrate
authenticity? So when you uselanguage like this, it's been
very important in the gaycommunity that you are who you
(23:19):
say you are. And so that's onething. If you're 1819, 26 and
you say that you're gay oryou're bisexual, but what if
you're 14 or 13? And a lot ofthis is curated in online,
digital and social media. And soI think one person that we've
(23:39):
we've read, that we wereindebted to, I think in terms of
just conceptual framework, was awriter named Rob cover, and he
talks about how that that senseof like authenticity and sort of
scrutiny of it, are you who yousay you are, if It's if there's
pressure placed on younger andyounger people where, where this
(24:02):
micro, minoritized space isfree, seems to be more popular
among younger people, then thatdrive and insistence on
authenticity, are people readyfor that in terms of the stress
and mental health concerns thatcould arise. And again, this
population is already subject togreater risk for depressive
(24:24):
disorders, anxiety disorders andother concerns, so you know. And
he's writing that from withinthe community, saying, Look, do
we know what we're doing here,or what's what's happening here
in terms of young people beingin that space and feeling more
stressed. So I think I just wantto reiterate Julia's point about
being sensitive to that. Andthen you're, you're kind of
(24:44):
walking with people. I think ofit as like thinking of just the
common denominator of people, orwe like meaning and a sense of
purpose and and so how does whatmeaning is derived from
language. And how are youlanding on language that makes
sense for you? And we often talkabout is drafts. You don't have
(25:05):
to land on language that is setin stone. You can always return
to things. And actually, a lotof young people we both work
with do try things on, and theydo say, I think it's this, and
then maybe a year and a halflater, they think it's a
different word, or couple ofwords come together that capture
it better. And then sometimesparents, in this just sheer like
(25:27):
exhaustion around it orincredulity around it, they look
back and they use it almostagainst the child. Like, how do
you know who you How can I takewhat you're saying at 17, you've
been down this road and threedifferent iterations of
possibilities, and I think itends up being kind of like
they're almost on trial, likeyou're so you can get the
scrutiny from the gay community.
Are you who you say you are? Youcan get the scrutiny from
(25:50):
parents and others in ministry.
Does the you know, does thejourney of identity mean this is
all just up for grabs. It's,it's, it's really nothing of any
significance, and we'll justwait this out till you kind of
work back to the norms that I'mfamiliar with, like all of those
things can be in play here.
Unknown (26:11):
Yeah, I think one of the things I'm thinking of that
we've written about in this andother resources is. Idea of
where does a teen find a securebase to operate from as they
explore identity, right and andhow much of a pressure cooker it
can be for them when parents aresometimes hoping or anticipating
(26:31):
that this is a phase and it insaying so or framing it in this
way that teen can sometimesreact against that and kind of
double down in ways that aren'tauthentic to them, but it's more
of what's at stake is proving tomy parents, I know who I am,
that I can kind of successfullyfind my way in the world.
(26:52):
There's a lot at stake as theynavigate these questions. And so
I think for parents to kind oftake a step back. Pastors to
take a step back, take a longterm view, and kind of not
ignore these questions. BecauseI think sometimes, again, from
the framework of this is a phasepastors are taught, oh, just
don't talk about it at all.
It'll, you know, buy yourselfsome time, wait it out, and this
(27:13):
will subside. And that too cansignal we can't answer or
explore these questions with youin an environment, a faith
community or a family that couldbe an enormous place of
belonging actually, right? Andperhaps the more secure base
than even my peer group orsocial media and online context.
And so I think being able towalk the narrow ridge of on the
(27:37):
one hand, acknowledging thatyes, teens are exploring
identity. They're looking for asense of belonging, and that
will shift over time for someteens, while also giving the
teen the benefit of the doubtthat they're actually really
trying to wrestle with this,with integrity, even as they may
shift and evolve, as opposed towhat some of the teams I meet
(28:00):
with tell me, which is, if Itell my parents that I've
shifted here, that I've changedmy mind, they're going to think
I was doing it for attentionafter all, and they're going to
signal I told you so and so. Ithink that's another important
piece of this process, is, canthey find a sense of belonging
in families, in churchcommunities, as they're kind of
(29:20):
exploring this, or are wesignaling, you know, kind of in
subtle, or less subtle ways,that you have to figure this
out, out there, and then comeback to us when you've landed in
a place that feels steady foryou,
Joshua Johnson (29:36):
that kind of leads me into a place of a
discipleship issue, like, whatdoes it? What does discipling
look like in a way where thereis belonging, and there's a
space to be able to orientourselves towards Jesus and
wanting to say, hey, we wouldactually want to try and embody
the ways of Jesus, follow Him,to start to look more like him
(30:00):
in this world. I mean, that'ssomething that we have had to
deal with in the church. One isreally a boundary set of where,
hey, you're either in or out,and if you're out, you got to
figure yourself out, and thenyou can be in or like a centered
set type of approach, whereJesus is at the center, and
we're all facing either towardshim or away from him, and we're
(30:22):
all on a journey towards there.
What does then discipleship looklike? And how do we start to
orient people towards Christ inthe middle of people figuring
out sexual orientationidentities?
Unknown (30:35):
Yeah, one of the things that I think becomes really
important with young peopletoday is actually trust building
in a way that reflectstrustworthiness of God in their
lives, his desire to beintimately involved in these
questions and the 2000 otherthings that are flowing through
their minds on a daily basis.
And also, I think not expectingso little of our young people. I
(30:57):
think sometimes we can waterdown kind of the spiritual life
for young people in ways thatcreates environments in our
churches where it's really moreof a social club for them. And
if it's one among many socialclubs, they can opt in and out
of it like they would, kind ofother social context. And so you
mentioned Christ likeness, andthis is what we talk about a
good bit in the book, is, whatdoes it look like to help teens
(31:20):
move towards Christ, likeness,in prayer, in kind of a
relationship with God that isbringing in these questions and
all the other questions, and byour own presence in a youth's
life, saying, I care about thosepieces like God cares about
those pieces, Right? And I thinkbuilding that sense of trust,
acknowledging to how in anygiven faith community, different
(31:43):
generations are going to beusing different language for
these conversations. So if asermon comes up on a Sunday that
talks about people strugglingwith same sex attraction, for
instance, right or strugglingwith gender distress, can we
check in with our youth who arenavigating these questions and
help them interact with thatlanguage and help them know that
(32:03):
is more of that residualframework work that we write
about in the book, and whatthey're talking about is what
you're talking about when yousay abort a gender, right? And
arrow ace and so. But they'reusing different language,
helping with critical thinking.
Helping them know that I canbelong in a faith community
where people are going to uselanguage differently, and God's
(32:25):
kind of holding space for all ofus to come and worship in the
same space. So that's anotherpiece I think of. And then
lastly, trying to help the youthidentify pockets of safety in
their family, in the kind ofpastoral care team, not
expecting every single person inthe faith community to be
perfect in how they approach andengage with this. And I think
(32:47):
some teens I write about this alittle bit in the book really
are kind of taught right nowthat if people aren't right
where I am, they're not safe,they're not trustworthy. And so
I'm always trying to work withteens, have you kind of hold
space for your own experienceand differentiate from Yes, I
don't agree with this person inthis conversation in every way,
(33:07):
and I can still partake in thelife of discipleship and share
my perspective in a kind ofrespectful, mature way.
Joshua Johnson (33:15):
I mean, that's a discipleship issue for all of
us. I mean, because it seemslike our culture is in a place
where, if you don't have myexact same beliefs, or we're not
on the exact same page, we can'tactually communicate and talk,
and we don't know how to talkacross differences or language
or barriers. And so that is adeception issue for every single
(33:38):
person I want to know for bothof you, as you've been sitting
with people and helping peoplenavigate some of these things in
their lives, what have youlearned about the heart of God
as you've been sitting withpeople? It's a
Mark Yarhouse (33:51):
really, really interesting question. One of the
things that that we talk a lotabout it, when Julia talked
about trust and trustworthiness.
You know, the heart of God, inmy experience towards someone in
this space is that of a father.
And so I think young people arethe beloved, like they're
they're loved by God, and thatGod wants a relationship with
(34:14):
them. And so I think in someways, discipleship pairs well
with this. This next question isultimately, in my view,
discipleship is helping a youngperson trust that God is a good
and loving father whose ownheart and instruction in these
areas are going to be better anda path for flourishing than the
(34:39):
instructions and guidance theyhave from all sorts of competing
voices. And so again, from aministry standpoint, you know,
so much of our faith isinterpersonally mediated, like
we come to dare to trust God inthese ways because we're around
people who bear his name, and webegin to think it's plausible
(35:02):
that there could be a God likethat, because I've been loved
well by people who bear hisname, likewise, when I've been
mistreated by those same people,it's hard for me to believe that
there's a God behind this wholething that I could I could
trust, that I could feel lovedby right? So it's so important
for ministry, and I think forparenting, to sort of live the
(35:25):
live out, embody the heart ofGod, towards that, towards that
young person. They're Beloved.
They're loved by God. God wantsa relationship with them, and so
and in many cases, in myexperience, they have a
relationship with God. It'sfragile. It feels like something
that they're told by many otherpeople that they can't have.
They can't have both. They can'tbe in this space and also be
(35:48):
loved by God. And of course,those are things that you know
we have to push back against.
And but the love of the Father,the heart of the Father, I
think, is a big part of whatI've seen, yeah,
Unknown (35:59):
one of the pieces that always strikes me and feels
increasingly clear as I do thiswork is how volatile the human
heart is and how not volatilethe heart of God is that we have
our own anxieties andirritabilities and questions and
concerns that can so often drivehow we relate to young people
(36:20):
today, so many fear basedapproaches, and it comes when I
think about that for myself as aperson who's walked with young
people, as a friend, as apsychologist, that there can be
a fragility in me where I feelalmost as if the faith that I
hold or the teachings of theChurch are fragile in some
(36:41):
sense, and I need to kind ofprotect them and lay them out
kind of in a consistent way, orthey won't be so sturdy and so
strong. And I think the heart ofGod is not so fragile, and
certainly not driven by fear.
And so there's a way in whichthere's a steadiness to the
God's heart for people, apresence that is so stable and
(37:02):
ready to show up in thesecomplex spaces, and there's not
as much of a need to kind ofcling to anything that we in our
ministry may feel. The need tocling to our teachings are not
fragile. The heart of God is notfragile. People, and is really
ready to step into complexitywith people, into the trenches
with people, in a way that Ithink can be hard to mirror,
(37:24):
which is the blessing of notbeing God and trusting God's
presence with these young peopleas we imperfectly show up.
Joshua Johnson (37:35):
When I was growing up and a lot of people
were growing up, it felt likethere was a, it was almost a
binary of language. This is,this is wrong. This is right.
You know, this is moral. Thisis, this is bad, like there,
there's a binary type oflanguage. I think a lot of
people my age and older willprobably have a lot of that
(37:59):
similar language and thinking aswe're navigating a landscape
which is more open and thisbinary language isn't really
popular. How do we navigate someof those issues? What is like
God's desire for us? What isGod's desire not for us? And
(38:20):
what, what are we doing? How dowe learn a language that
actually points to God and Hisdesire for our lives and who we
are that is not just binarylanguage?
Unknown (38:31):
Yeah, I think one of the mistakes we've made is, is,
you know, well intentionedpeople hoping that if we
categorize this in binarycategories. So it's morally
problematic to identify as gay,let's say, or to use any one of
these labels, that if that'sframed as sin, the hope is we'll
kind of course correct people,or we'll keep them from doing
(38:52):
these things. And what we knowabout many people, including
teenagers, is that kind ofcategories of yes, no, good,
bad, in and of themselves, don'tcreate the context for us to
live virtuously and live inChrist like ways, if anything,
kind of doubling down on this isbad and this is good and that's
(39:13):
dangerous. Can create a sense offorbidden fruit. Can create a
sense of shame that actuallydoes drive compulsion in areas
of sexuality in ways that can bemorally problematic for people.
And so I think helping in ourkind of adult understanding of
this to recognize that if thehope is to help teens think
(39:34):
critically about language, ifthe hope is to help them think,
what would God have for me insexual relationships. Moving
forward, the way to do that isto create actual space for young
people to explore some of thislanguage and categories, instead
of moralizing the language assuch. Because again, these
teens, many times when theyshare with me, you know, I think
(39:56):
I might be arrow ace, they'renot engaging in any behavioral
shifts through that language. Ifanything, they're they're
abstaining from sexual activityout of that language. And so to
frame that in moral categoriescan be quite confusing for them,
as to, what am I doing wrong bysimply using these terms? And so
I think remembering in ministryaround sexuality that a teen
(40:18):
sharing these things with youmay have no bearing on behavior
in the kind of moral realm, andis simply, as Mark said earlier,
them trying to articulate in thelanguage that they are
referencing, a little bit abouthow they understand themselves
today at this time. And we cantalk, and we do in the book,
about how to offer kind offrameworks and teachings around
(40:42):
sexual behavior withoutexpecting that the ministry is
simply about yes, no, good, bad,and then we've kind of done what
we need to do in teaching thefaith.
Joshua Johnson (40:52):
How does gender and emerging gender identities
merge with sexual identities?
What is the overlap there? Andare we navigating some of the
same issues with genderidentity? Or is there an
overlap? Or are they verydistinct?
Mark Yarhouse (41:08):
Yeah, so a couple of years ago, we wrote a book
called Emerging genderidentities that sort of charted
this course of you know, whatare the developments,
particularly in the rise of, Iwould say non binary
experiences, and non binary isan umbrella term for a lot of
different experiences of genderthat reside either in between
(41:29):
the binary of man woman oroutside the binary. So we were
kind of just entering into thatspace. And then when we always
thought maybe we would do acorresponding book on emerging
sexual identities. And so thiswould emphasize more the
experience of attraction andorientation and things like
that. But as we were doing that,we realized that there was a
(41:50):
percentage of young people whowere doing both that that
concept of micro, minoritizedidentities drawing on both. So
gender is definitely a part ofthis conversation, particularly
emerging or emergent ways ofthinking about yourself. We
wouldn't want to think of it asrigidly. It's just about sexual
identity. It's often aboutgender identity and some
(42:12):
combination of the two. Sothat's, I think, increasingly
popular. And I don't mean itlike a. Necessarily a trend. I
just think it's increasinglyyou're seeing younger people
gravitating towards that as,again, ways of naming their
reality, naming theirexperience. Why would I just
name my sexuality when mygender's equally important and
(42:33):
either or both could be nonnormative? So no, it's
definitely in play. Again, withgender, I don't think person's
telling you anything reallyabout their issues of morality.
I think they're they're nottelling you things that you'd be
like, Oh, I don't know if that'smorally Permissible or
impermissible. They're justsaying, No, I'm, I'm pangender.
No, I'm, I'm a demi boy, like Ithey're just using language to
(42:56):
communicate something so superimportant that we get back into
the posture of I wonder, youknow, if I haven't heard that
before, I wonder what that meansto them. And some of these terms
will mean slightly differentthings to different people, like
if I heard non binary, because Iknow it's an umbrella term,
there's a lot of different wayspeople could be thinking about
themselves, just as if you heardtransgender. There's many ways
(43:19):
people could be thinking aboutthemselves, so that curiosity,
how might it function for them,is always a kind of a question
that I'm wondering about. Soyeah, those are entryways into
ministry, I think, in bothsexual and gender identity.
Yeah, the
Unknown (43:33):
biggest thing I see happening is young people who I
meet with are trying to leavespace for the people they
haven't met yet who may beadopting different gender
identities as they think inreference to sexual orientation,
so they may be more inclined tosay, you know, I'm I'm bi
romantic, to kind of account forthere's, there's a lot of people
(43:54):
out there that I might beattracted to at some point
romantically, who may identifyon a kind of continuum of gender
identity. So that's one waythey're related. Is I'm thinking
in reference to myrelationships, and who might I
be drawn to in some cases in theabstract, not always, but in
some cases in the abstract. Andso that's that's a nuance in how
these intersect. Another thing Isee is that some young people
(44:19):
are focusing on one or theother, as if I want to figure
out the gender identity piece,and use language around sexual
orientation that is kind ofexpansive enough to kind of let
me figure this out. Orconversely, I maybe know who I'm
attracted to. I have a sense forthat, but this gender piece who
(44:39):
I am as I show up inrelationships with other people,
including romantic ones that Ihaven't quite figured out yet.
And so I might use language thataccounts for more fluidity there
in order to kind of leave spacefor who am I. And I'm figuring
that out, and I don't know. Andso again, sometimes when teens
use language, we think of it asa way that they're kind of
putting their flag in the sandand they're digging in their
(45:02):
heels, when really sometimesthey're trying to use this
expansive language, actually, tocommunicate to you that I'm
actively wrestling with this andfluidity. That type of framework
helps me take the pressure offof some of these things at an
age when I have so much elsekind of vying for my attention,
and so that's maybe another wayI think of it, is they're,
(45:25):
they're kind of focusing on oneand then leaving the other a
little bit more flexible orloose, if you will, to really
account for the journey thatthey're on through adolescence
and emerging adulthood
Joshua Johnson (45:37):
as they're on this journey. I think a lot of
times when we, I mean, if I havesomebody come to me and they're
saying words I don't know. A lotof times I'm afraid I and
because I I just don't know thelanguage. I really don't know
how to talk to them. So I'mgonna, I might shut down as
they're coming to me. I mightengage, but as I engage there,
(46:00):
sometimes it's not going to behelpful if I just say, this is
all of who you are. This is yourcore identity. Sometimes we do
that to people too. It's likeyour emerging sexual identity is
the only thing really about you,and we make it the most
important thing about them. Soas people come to us, if we're
afraid, or if we're trying tosay, dealing with this issue,
(46:24):
what are some nuanced ways to toactually alleviate some of our
own fear of engaging inconversation around these
topics, and how, like, how muchimportance should we and wait?
Should we be giving thesetopics?
Unknown (46:42):
That's a great question. Yeah, I think a lot of
people are afraid that if theyover emphasize these pieces,
they're pushing somebody down atrajectory almost prematurely,
whether that's in the realm ofsexual orientation or gender,
and on the other hand, afraid ofsaying the wrong thing. And so
again, then that's where thefear leads to that shutdown. I'm
not going to say anything atall. And I think if that is the
(47:04):
case, it's been mentionedalready that teens value
authenticity, and that's a kindof metric for them. And so even
for adults to bring in a levelof authenticity that this is new
territory, like I'm trying tofigure out how to hold. All of
these things with you here, eventhat kind of appropriate
modeling of a bit ofvulnerability on the part of
(47:24):
adults goes a long way ininviting that type of
vulnerability from youth. Nowyou're not voicing I'm angry and
I'm scared and you're notgetting into all the details,
but just acknowledging I'mtrying to hold this piece of
your story that feels reallyimportant, and I also don't want
to be reductive of you, that'sone thing is, I think just
making that very explicit withyoung people is a value. And
(47:47):
then sometimes in ministry andparenting, this can almost,
yeah, as you said, take up allthe space on the screen where
suddenly all the conversationsin our family are about gender
and sexuality, and we're we'renot spending time with one
another in any other way. I'vesometimes told parents, you
know, when's the last time youdid something that you and your
(48:08):
child both enjoy doing together?
Oh, we both like biking. Well,why don't you go do that and
don't talk to each other?
Because it seems like thatthat's actually getting really
difficult right now, and socreating intentional space to
zoom out, as opposed to sayingmerely to our kids, you know,
oh, I don't see you as this. Youknow, you're you're not defined
(48:29):
by this. Because, again, thatcan be almost more of just
putting this in a box somewhereand hoping it goes away when we
do that. And so being able tocreate intentional space to
receive the whole person acrossfrom you is really valuable. And
then finally, I think, you know,in ministry especially,
sometimes we reference thesekids as if this is the only part
(48:53):
of their identity worth talkingabout. So that kids queer, that
kid's, you know, they just toldus they're non binary, and now
every ministry conversation isin reference to that kid and
their gender and sexualidentity, as opposed to, hey,
when's the last time you askedthem how their prayer life is
going? Right in general, whatare the things they're praying
about? What are the thingsthey're afraid to bring to God
(49:13):
in prayer? Well, those areministry questions, right? That
help them connect to God in thecommunity in a rich way. So even
how we talk with these youngpeople and about them, I think,
shapes our posture and our senseof expanding around this while
containing this aspect of theirstory.
Mark Yarhouse (49:33):
Well, I just, I would offer a couple other
pieces to compliment that. So Ithink one is to be prepared.
This book, this interview, thispodcast, helps you prepare that
you know that this is aconversation that's taking
place. So I think when we feelmore anxious is often we don't
know what's happening. We don'tknow that. We don't know that it
is happening. We don't know thelanguage is out there. So
(49:54):
preparing yourself be preparedis the first place we talked
about being curious. That'sanother one. If someone tells
you, your child, someone inmiddle school youth group, tells
you this, they're inviting youto learn something more about
them that you didn't knowbefore. So be curious like I
would take this as an invitationto greater intimacy, to know
(50:14):
this person better, versus apolitical discourse a how does
this fit with how I think aboutthis as this political party or
that political party? You cantake it to a political
ideological conversation, butyou've just lost an opportunity
to know them better, right? Sobe prepared, be curious. And
then lastly, be on the same sideand think about it this way, in
(50:37):
a tennis match or a pickleballmatch, if that's your thing,
you're either going to be on thesame side of the net facing
whatever's out there. Are yougoing to be on the other side of
the net? And a lot of times inministry and in as parents,
people can inadvertentlyposition themselves on the other
side of the net. So here's achild, you know, 1415, they're
(50:57):
telling you something. And soyou start to just go devil's
advocate. You can start to gopepper them with questions. You
start to sort of be and all of asudden you're, if you just
imagine where you are on thespatial, relational piece with
them, you're on the other sideof the net. And that's hard to
move away from that position.
But if you could think inadvance as a mother, as a
father, as a youth minister. Asthey share this with me, in my
(51:21):
mind, I'm going to locate myselfnext to them, facing whatever's
on the other side of the netmight be changing culture, might
be peer group, whatever it mightbe questions about God, it might
be all kinds of things. But I'mgoing to join them in facing
like, if they're asking reallyinteresting and good questions
about life, I want to be withthem as they ask those
(51:43):
questions. I've probably askedthose questions. I might be
asking those questions rightnow, but I don't normally talk
with this person about it, andhere they are opening up with
me. So location is a big thing,so be prepared, be curious, and
then be on the same side of thenet.
Joshua Johnson (51:59):
And that's that's a great place, actually,
to end conversation here,because that is really a hope of
what it looks like to engagethis conversation. To engage
your book emerging sexualidentities, which is out now and
available anywhere books aresold, so you could go and get
that is. Really helpful for meto walk through where things are
(52:23):
coming from, where they are now,these emergent sexual identities
and really navigating thesepastoral and parenting issues.
What does it look like to walkwith people as they're on this
journey? Was really, reallyhelpful for me. So this book, I
really highly recommend to goand get the book. I think it's
going to be really helpful for alot of people. I'd love to get a
(52:45):
couple of recommendations fromboth of you, of just anything
you've been reading or watchinglately. You could recommend
Mark Yarhouse (52:52):
things I've been reading. So I'm in a book club
right now, and we just readJonathan hates the anxious
generation, and so it actuallymaps on pretty well with what
we're talking about here, butjust understanding particularly
how the introduction not justlike you know, you can go back
to when was the internet firstbuilt, but like the use of
smartphones and the access tothem, and some of the things
(53:15):
that he recommends we do to sortof give kids a break from that
and what that does to them, tous, but particularly younger
people with smartphonetechnology. And then even the
way that certain apps allow youto not just post ideas and share
ideas, but now sort of critiqueand comment, and that's created
that whole atmosphere, thatcharged atmosphere of cancel
(53:40):
culture and people pushingagainst you and just piling on,
you know, with all yourfollowers against this person,
with their followers like hedocuments this by date of
release, and here's theempirical evidence for the
impact on young people inanxiety, depression. That's
maybe a little more soberingone, but that's the one we're
reading right now, and that'swhat we want to talk about in to
(54:01):
talk about our next
Unknown (54:02):
book club. So I'm more of a re reader of books I like.
Sometimes I read them once, andI think I should read it again,
because I forgotten the wholething. So there's a book by Eve
Tushnet called tenderness, andit actually reflects on her
experience of God as a gayCatholic. And what does it look
like to encounter the tendernessof God by virtue of being a
(54:23):
sexual minority, as opposed toseeing my experience as a sexual
minority as something thatserves as a barrier or a block
from my relationship with God,and in kind of rereading and re
reflecting on that, I think it'ssuch a helpful first insight
into some of the spiritualjourneys of people navigating
these questions in youth and inadolescence, and be thinking,
(54:45):
what are the kind of principlesand spiritual insights that we
want young people to be carryingwith them into adulthood, so
that their Christian faith issuch a resource to them as They
navigate these questions, asopposed to something that is an
impediment to authenticity andfreedom. And so I think that's
kind of Yeah, something recentI've been reading that has been
(55:08):
really rich, and also, I think,gives some guidance to listeners
on how to cultivate spiritualmaturity in the lives of
Christian young people.
Joshua Johnson (55:17):
Great recommendations. Is there
anywhere you'd like to pointpeople to? How can they connect
with you and what you're doing?
Mark Yarhouse (55:23):
Well, our institute, the sexual and gender
identity Institute, would begreat. So that's wheaton.edu
backslash SGI for sexual genderidentity Institute. I'm also on
X or Twitter and Instagram,
Unknown (55:37):
and my website is Julia sadusky.com and I'm on a little
bit of YouTube videos andInstagram and sub stack, also
doing some writing more recentlythat people can follow along
with
Joshua Johnson (55:50):
perfect Well Mark and Julia, thank you for
unpacking the emerging sexualidentities with us and really
walking us through what does itlook like To walk with people
and journey with young peoplethrough this time and this age
and what this looks like for usas ministers, as parents. It was
a fantastic conversation.
Hopefully it's really helpfulfor a lot of people. And so
thank you so much.
Mark Yarhouse (56:13):
Thank you.
Joshua, great to be with you.
Great to see you too. Juliet,you you.
The heart of God is not fragile and is really
ready to step into complexitywith people, into the trenches,
with people in a way that Ithink can be hard to mirror,
which is the blessing of notbeing God and trusting God's
presence with these young peopleas we imperfectly show up. You.
John,
Joshua Johnson (01:03):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, you know,
navigating identity has neverbeen more complex or more
charged than it is for a youngperson today, the language
around sexuality and gender isexpanding faster than most of us
(01:25):
can keep up with, and for manyparents, pastors and leaders,
the ground feels like it'sshifting beneath our feet, but
beneath all the noise, theonline pressures and the
debates, there are realteenagers trying to name their
lived experience and find aplace to belong. So in this
conversation, I sit down with DrMark yarhouse and Dr Julius
(01:45):
sadusky to unpack the landscapeof emerging sexual identities,
not as cultural warriors ortheorists, but as people have
spent years sitting with youngadults, listening for what's
underneath the labels. We talkabout curiosity over cynicism,
how identity forms, why thelanguage keeps expanding, and
what it means to walk alongsideteenagers without fear, panic or
(02:07):
reductionism, and we press intothe deeper pastoral question,
how do we navigate and cultivatea discipleship that holds space
for belonging, honesty and thesteady, unfragile heart of God,
if you're a parent, if you're apastor, if you're a youth
leader, or simply someone tryingto understand the moment we're
living in. This episode is fullof clarity, nuance and real
(02:29):
hope. It's a guide for walkingwith people not around them and
learning to stand on the sameside of the net as they wrestle
with who they are and whothey're becoming. So join us.
Here is my conversation withMark yarhouse and Julius
sadusky. Dr, Mark yarhouse,welcome back to shifting
culture. Excited to have youback on and Dr, Julius sadusky,
(02:51):
it's so good to have you on aswell. So welcome and welcome to
shifting culture.
Mark Yarhouse (02:57):
Oh, thank you so much. Glad to be here. That's
great, people.
Joshua Johnson (03:01):
I'm really excited to dive into emerging
sexual identities, because it isa landscape that is emerging,
right? It's emergent, it's new.
It is growing, and the languageis growing, and the more
definitions are coming, it seemslike almost every day. So can
you just lay out the grand workfor us? What are sexual
identities? What are we talkingabout, and what is starting to
(03:22):
emerge?
Mark Yarhouse (03:25):
So sexual identity is the is when people
label themselves, eitherprivately, just thinking about
themselves, or publicly to otherpeople, they're telling you
about their underlyingattractions or their
orientation. So when someonesays that they're gay or lesbian
or even straight, they're usingsexual identity language,
(03:47):
another way to think about it.
Sometimes people call it sexualorientation identity just but
it's a little more streamlinedif you just say it's sexual
identity, but if it helps you toremember that's what they're
actually communicating, that'skind of what that word is. So
the common in this book, we callthem dominant language for
sexual identity would be gay,lesbian, bisexual. And then when
(04:09):
we talk about emerging, we'retalking about sort of, what's on
the horizon, what are some newways, new configurations of
sexual identity. So there's allkinds. The Trevor Project had
boasted over 100 reported sexualidentities among young people,
and then another 100 plus forgender identities. And so this
(04:30):
would be, you know, things likealong the ace spectrum of
asexuality, and there's a lot ofidentities underneath that,
whether it's gray sexual ordemisexual or pansexual,
omnisexual, there's just anumber of different variations
of sexual identity today,
Joshua Johnson (04:50):
in your book that we didn't really talk about
sexual identity until, what, the19th century or so, but we're
starting to come up with withmore sexual identities. Why do
you think that, really, we'reshifting into a broader breadth
of sexual orientationidentities? What does it look
like, and why do you think it'sstarting to emerge that there is
(05:12):
a diverse more diversity in thelanguage that we're using.
Unknown (05:16):
One of the things that we talk about in the book is
really how queer theory hasimpacted this conversation quite
a bit and and I think, shaped anexpanding landscape where people
are trying to get moreparticular and more precise in
terms. Terms of how they talkabout themselves. And so one of
the things we write about in thebook is micro, minoritized
(05:37):
identity, where people aretaking kind of sexual identity
and gender identity labels andapplying them together again to
try to account for what theywould describe as maybe the
uniqueness of their story, orthe uniqueness of their
experience of this. And I thinkas the gender identity labels
expand there, there was a feltneed for people to then shift
(06:00):
how we talk about sexualorientation and identity,
because we're not justreferencing male female binary.
There's now a reference point toall of these emerging gender
identities as well.
Joshua Johnson (06:11):
Can you unpack a little bit of then, what is
queer theory and why is itsomething that's been so
impactful in the way that wethink about identities and
language?
Mark Yarhouse (06:20):
So queer theory is has its roots in philosophy
and literature, traces back tomajor figures like Foucault, and
there's a number of academics inbetween those historical folks
and contemporary queertheorists. And so queer theory
is probably most known forwanting to scrutinize and
(06:43):
challenge existing norms,normative structures. You know,
a good example of this actuallywould have been years ago when
the Supreme Court ruled aroundmarriage, there were queer
members of the LGBTQ communitywho really didn't want gay
marriage because marriage wasviewed as kind of an
assimilationist strategy by themainstream gay community, as
(07:06):
identifying something that wassymbolic and valued within
society and the gay communitycould sort of be esteemed and
recognized as on par with so fora queer theorist, they're
looking at that saying, whywould you ever enter into
existing normative structuresthat elevate heterosexuality and
(07:27):
then you sort of assimilate intothat structure that they want to
look, look at that whole thingand say, No, that whole thing
needs to be deconstructed. We'renot subject to the, you know,
the normativities of existingsociety. We're not interested in
the binaries of existingsociety. These become sources of
oppression for people. So wetear all that down. So they're
(07:48):
not as interested in maybe theidentity, even the identity
first language. So in some ways,emerging sexual identities are
indebted to the role of queertheory historically. But they're
not asking for the same thing.
You know, they're they'rewanting to be more granular, and
as Julia talked about, thatmicro, minoritized way of
(08:09):
thinking about yourself? Well,queer theory is not as
interested in those categories,especially anything that would
be an alternative to a normallows the norm to stay in
power. So queer theory wants topush him against all of that.
Joshua Johnson (08:25):
If queer theory is not really interested in all
these, these micro minoritytypes of identity labels that
we're trying to find inourselves. What were the major
impacts of queer theory onreally, just the way that we're
starting to think and outside ofthe norm and the binary? What
(08:46):
was the major impact?
Unknown (08:47):
Yeah, I think you hit on it there. I mean, I mean just
the sense of a kind of endlessexpanse of opportunities for how
people will conceptualize genderreally does have an impact then
on how people think of who am Iromantically and or sexually
attracted to? Right? Because ifthe people across from me are
adopting labels that have thiswide expanse, then I can opt in
(09:11):
or out of labels that would bemore particular right to the
relationship with a personacross from me who would not
then identify with the binary inmany cases. And so I think that
that has had a pretty profoundimpact. I think with young
people today, what I see a lotis they're not even aware of how
much queer theory has shapedsome of this. Even if you know
(09:34):
they're reading on Reddit orother things, quotes from Judith
Butler and other kind of figuresin this space, they're not
actually aware of how thosequotes, where they're coming
from, how they're shaped byqueer theory, and then they're
applying them, I think, insometimes logically inconsistent
ways, right, in how they thinkabout themselves and how they
think about romanticrelationships or sexual
(09:56):
relationships moving forward
Joshua Johnson (09:58):
as we walk through life. And you know, this
is one thing that we have in ourlife, our sexual identities and
who we're attracted to and whatthat looks like. How do
identities, our own identities,start to emerge in our lives.
How do we start to form them?
How are they formed? Where arethey coming from? That's a
really interesting question.
Mark Yarhouse (10:19):
I mean, you know, I think many people would say
today that we're a society.
We're a point in history whereidentity is very central, very
much salient, to our sense ofperson. Hood, but that that
wouldn't have been the case formost of time, that is just not
the way people thought ofthemselves. You might be a man,
a husband, a father, but theidea of like identity being
(10:43):
associated with the sexualityand gender in the way that we're
talking about it would have justbeen foreign to a lot of people.
And I think it was probablyCharles Taylor, was one of the
first philosophers who reallyunpacked this idea that identity
has become such a central partof kind of how you configure
(11:05):
yourself, how you think aboutyourself, and the importance of
that. And so others have steppedinto that conversation, but I
would commend you, his writingwould be probably the most
extensive treatment of that sortof philosophically and
historically. I think where wetake it in a more contemporary
conversation, we draw on anotherphilosopher named Ian hacking.
(11:27):
He's a Canadian philosopher whopassed away just a couple of
years ago, and he talks moreabout how he has an interesting
essay called Making up people.
And sort of the idea is now hewas involved in demography,
where you categorize people, andhis observation was that people
(11:48):
respond to how they're beingcategorized, and that one of the
primary ways that we categorizepeople in Western societies is
actually through diagnosticnosology, and so we we end up
using labels like we used touse, like multiple personality
disorder came dissociativeidentity disorder, and we have
(12:08):
autism spectrum disorder, andthere was Asperger's for a
season, and now that's notthere, and we had gender
identity disorder, and nowthat's been removed so and may
his main point is, as you, asyou categorize people through
these diagnoses, there's a hecalled a looping effect of
different ways in whichdifferent things that happen as
(12:29):
a result of that, you Have thevery people who are being
categorized, and they knowthey're being categorized. They
know they're being diagnosed.
They know that they're part ofthe system. So they interact,
individually and as a group,with the ways in which language
is being used to sort ofcategorize them and put them in
this kind of box. And then youhave institutions like my
(12:50):
institution, and others and APAand other different groups that
interview them and study themand report on them. And then you
have what becomes conjecturalknowledge, or sort of taken for
granted realities. This is goingto be, what are people talking
on about on the view, or what'shappening on Jimmy Fallon and so
there, if you were to show upand say, Hey, I think there's
two genders, you would beoutside of, like, the current
(13:13):
cultural discourse of hundredsof genders and hundreds of
sexualities. And so then youhave experts finally in this
loop that get to determine whatcounts as real knowledge about
this topic, like how manygenders are there, or what's
going to be in the nextdiagnostic manual, and that's
how we ended up moving fromthinking of this as an identity
(13:35):
issue, gender identity to beinga dysphoric issue, a distress
issue. Or we went fromhomosexuality as a pathology to
removing it, you know. And soall of these are subject to
looping effects. And the onlyobservation we really made about
that for this conversationemerging sexual identities is
that they're not indebted toexperts. The way the dominant
(14:45):
sort of mainstream gay communitywas like they needed experts to
say it's no longer apsychopathology. Well, at 14 or
15, you know, you're indebted tothat history, but you're not
counting on mental healthprofessionals to validate you.
You're Springboarding off ofthat. You know you're you're, in
a sense, we say, you bypassexperts. You don't, you don't,
(15:07):
you're not subject to theiropinion, whereas in the past,
others would have been.
Joshua Johnson (15:14):
I want to take a broader look, then at the
specific type of culture, Ithink, is it more prominent to
see these emerging sexualidentities in in a more
individualistic society wherethey find things from within
themselves, rather than acollectivistic society? Have you
seen anything any differencethere? Or is it just really
(15:37):
emerging worldwide because ofour our global monocultural
culture that's starting tohappen because of we're all
connected. And for some reason,it seems like we're all part of
a similar culture.
Unknown (15:50):
And certainly mark you can speak to this too, but I've
seen that right. You know,sexual attractions of various
types and various directionsexist across cultures, across
history, and have been welldocumented. And the same thing
around experiences of genderdistress. And so it's not to say
that these experiences onlyexist in Western cultures. And
(16:11):
yet, the ways that I think we'reconceptualizing identity today
in Western culture. Or is shapedin a kind of profound way by our
own society and and I can justsay anecdotally in my work with
clients that some of my clientswho come out of more
collectivistic settings have acomplex experience with the
(16:31):
mainstream LGBT narrative today,that there can be a desire to
identify in some way with thecommunity in the sense that
there are, there are, perhaps,benefits in how much the public
discourse has been shaped aroundthis conversation in ways that
mean a teen can talk about thiswith their family, and their
parents have a reference pointfor some of these categories.
(16:53):
But as far as some of thelandscape that we see that's
micro minoritized. For instance,I think for some people, they
would be much more willing, in aless individualistic setting, to
say, No, I'm going to uselanguage that allows me to
communicate with people aroundme, and I'm going to forego
certain terms because they feelso caught up in a western
(17:16):
society that doesn't representsome of the values that are
important to me.
Joshua Johnson (17:21):
So as you said, now they're starting to say,
hey, we're free and we're opento be able to talk about these
things and to express who webelieve that we are at this
moment in time, as things maystay the same, they may shift
over time, if people start tocome to say, either parents or a
(17:43):
minister within the church, andthey're they're navigating some
of these issues of theiremerging sexual identity, what's
a posture that we could start tohelp people navigate These
sexual identities that they aretrying to navigate on the inside
and themselves,
Mark Yarhouse (18:02):
I think the basic posture, and let me contrast it
with what we're trying to avoidhere. Because I think, I think
sometimes when people hear, youknow, someone says, I'm an
aromantic Demi boy, or I'm a,you know, tri gender, gray,
sexual. I could imagine someonejust kind of like, oh, okay,
what if, like, eitherdumbfounded or incredulous, or
(18:26):
like, cynical or Here we go.
We're doing this. Like, are wereally signing up for this
anymore? Like, I think there'sthat's, that's obviously the
ministry posture. We're tryingto say, can we prevent that from
happening? You know, in realtime, this is a young person who
is saying, This is how I bestknow how to communicate what I'm
(18:46):
experiencing right now. And, youknow, should there be a broader
cultural engagement with thelanguage and the deconstruct and
deconstruction of norms? Andwhat do we do with that as
Christians in this space? Yes,but the person is in front of
you, right? So I think theposture is going to be one more
of curiosity, more of humility,asking better questions, you
(19:08):
know. And I think for both Julieand I, you know, we come at
these things as as psychologistswho are always wondering, always
curious, how does languagefunction for people? You know,
what? What does it serve forthem? And there are probably
ways in which the way we thinkabout ourselves and do things in
our life serves us, and we don'teven think about it, right? And
(19:31):
so here's a young person where,you know, identity, language and
categories almost function ascurrency for a lot of young
people. And it's it'scredibility, and it's
relationship, and it's sense ofself and personhood and sense of
community and sense of family,and so, yeah, to be a little bit
more attuned to, I think I'mjust curious what's compelling
(19:53):
and you know, what's you know,you could ask that in a kind of
direct way that feels almostantagonistic, or you could have
a posture of genuine opennessand curiosity, even though you
have no reference point forthis, because your generation
was never exposed to the broadvista of possibilities that are
that are available to a 14 or 15year old today. Well, that alone
(20:14):
should be something to becurious about, right? Versus, if
two were good enough for me,then two are good enough for
you. Like that posture is notgoing to really lend itself to
ministry.
Unknown (20:27):
I think another piece that comes up for me in this is,
you know, tone is everythingwith teenagers, I see a lot of
parents, a lot of pastors whoMark kind of mentioned this, but
asking the same question in adifferent tone, you know, has a
really different impact on ayoung person. So if I was to
say, you know, I know nothingabout this stuff, what the heck
are you talking about? Or if Isay, Gosh, I don't, I don't know
(20:50):
as much about this as you, Ithink, and I would love to hear
more about like, can you help meunderstand where you're coming
from on this, to be honest, thisis really new territory for me,
because I see a lot of people inministry and parents who very
much know that they are kind ofon their back foot here. And
because of that, they actuallydon't tend as much to be
(21:13):
antagonistic in some cases asthey tend to say nothing. And.
Then that also sends a messageright from Christian so we don't
have anything to offer you inthis landscape. And one of the
important pieces, I think, ofour posture too, is maybe This
distinguishes us from more of asecular paradigm, to not just
assume all of this is stressfree for young people and merely
(21:38):
liberating. I mean, many of theyoung people that I talk to feel
overwhelmed by the expandinglandscape, and they're trying to
figure out, how do I do mycalculus homework, while also in
kind of getting a sense for whoI am. And so I think as
Christian, Christians in thisspace, our posture can also be
one of holding space for thechallenges there for them and
(21:59):
saying, what questions do youhave about this language? What's
been challenging about it foryou, or what don't you kind of
align with? Is there anythingthat you don't quite get about
it, and that just creates spacefor critical thinking as well?
Joshua Johnson (22:13):
I mean, I know as we're walking through our
teenage years and our youth andour 20s, like we're trying on
different identities and groupsto be able to say, I'm finding
my tribe here. I find who I amand this spot. And sometimes
that works, and sometimes itdoesn't, and then I go to a
different spot. So in the theshifting landscape, sometimes of
(22:37):
people trying to figure outwhere they belong. And I think
probably belonging is part ofwhat is happening here, is we're
trying to figure out where Ibelong. Who am I? Where do I
belong, and how do I fit in thisworld? What does it look like to
walk people through somethingwhere they are trying to find
their tribe, their people, andwhere they belong?
Mark Yarhouse (22:57):
Well, I think walking with people again, it's
that, that curiosity about it, Ithink to Julia's point, I think
sometimes young people, one ofthe concerns that's been raised
is, Will young people pressed byothers to demonstrate
authenticity? So when you uselanguage like this, it's been
very important in the gaycommunity that you are who you
(23:19):
say you are. And so that's onething. If you're 1819, 26 and
you say that you're gay oryou're bisexual, but what if
you're 14 or 13? And a lot ofthis is curated in online,
digital and social media. And soI think one person that we've
(23:39):
we've read, that we wereindebted to, I think in terms of
just conceptual framework, was awriter named Rob cover, and he
talks about how that that senseof like authenticity and sort of
scrutiny of it, are you who yousay you are, if It's if there's
pressure placed on younger andyounger people where, where this
(24:02):
micro, minoritized space isfree, seems to be more popular
among younger people, then thatdrive and insistence on
authenticity, are people readyfor that in terms of the stress
and mental health concerns thatcould arise. And again, this
population is already subject togreater risk for depressive
(24:24):
disorders, anxiety disorders andother concerns, so you know. And
he's writing that from withinthe community, saying, Look, do
we know what we're doing here,or what's what's happening here
in terms of young people beingin that space and feeling more
stressed. So I think I just wantto reiterate Julia's point about
being sensitive to that. Andthen you're, you're kind of
(24:44):
walking with people. I think ofit as like thinking of just the
common denominator of people, orwe like meaning and a sense of
purpose and and so how does whatmeaning is derived from
language. And how are youlanding on language that makes
sense for you? And we often talkabout is drafts. You don't have
(25:05):
to land on language that is setin stone. You can always return
to things. And actually, a lotof young people we both work
with do try things on, and theydo say, I think it's this, and
then maybe a year and a halflater, they think it's a
different word, or couple ofwords come together that capture
it better. And then sometimesparents, in this just sheer like
(25:27):
exhaustion around it orincredulity around it, they look
back and they use it almostagainst the child. Like, how do
you know who you How can I takewhat you're saying at 17, you've
been down this road and threedifferent iterations of
possibilities, and I think itends up being kind of like
they're almost on trial, likeyou're so you can get the
scrutiny from the gay community.
Are you who you say you are? Youcan get the scrutiny from
(25:50):
parents and others in ministry.
Does the you know, does thejourney of identity mean this is
all just up for grabs. It's,it's, it's really nothing of any
significance, and we'll justwait this out till you kind of
work back to the norms that I'mfamiliar with, like all of those
things can be in play here.
Unknown (26:11):
Yeah, I think one of the things I'm thinking of that
we've written about in this andother resources is. Idea of
where does a teen find a securebase to operate from as they
explore identity, right and andhow much of a pressure cooker it
can be for them when parents aresometimes hoping or anticipating
(26:31):
that this is a phase and it insaying so or framing it in this
way that teen can sometimesreact against that and kind of
double down in ways that aren'tauthentic to them, but it's more
of what's at stake is proving tomy parents, I know who I am,
that I can kind of successfullyfind my way in the world.
(26:52):
There's a lot at stake as theynavigate these questions. And so
I think for parents to kind oftake a step back. Pastors to
take a step back, take a longterm view, and kind of not
ignore these questions. BecauseI think sometimes, again, from
the framework of this is a phasepastors are taught, oh, just
don't talk about it at all.
It'll, you know, buy yourselfsome time, wait it out, and this
(27:13):
will subside. And that too cansignal we can't answer or
explore these questions with youin an environment, a faith
community or a family that couldbe an enormous place of
belonging actually, right? Andperhaps the more secure base
than even my peer group orsocial media and online context.
And so I think being able towalk the narrow ridge of on the
(27:37):
one hand, acknowledging thatyes, teens are exploring
identity. They're looking for asense of belonging, and that
will shift over time for someteens, while also giving the
teen the benefit of the doubtthat they're actually really
trying to wrestle with this,with integrity, even as they may
shift and evolve, as opposed towhat some of the teams I meet
(28:00):
with tell me, which is, if Itell my parents that I've
shifted here, that I've changedmy mind, they're going to think
I was doing it for attentionafter all, and they're going to
signal I told you so and so. Ithink that's another important
piece of this process, is, canthey find a sense of belonging
in families, in churchcommunities, as they're kind of
(29:20):
exploring this, or are wesignaling, you know, kind of in
subtle, or less subtle ways,that you have to figure this
out, out there, and then comeback to us when you've landed in
a place that feels steady foryou,
Joshua Johnson (29:36):
that kind of leads me into a place of a
discipleship issue, like, whatdoes it? What does discipling
look like in a way where thereis belonging, and there's a
space to be able to orientourselves towards Jesus and
wanting to say, hey, we wouldactually want to try and embody
the ways of Jesus, follow Him,to start to look more like him
(30:00):
in this world. I mean, that'ssomething that we have had to
deal with in the church. One isreally a boundary set of where,
hey, you're either in or out,and if you're out, you got to
figure yourself out, and thenyou can be in or like a centered
set type of approach, whereJesus is at the center, and
we're all facing either towardshim or away from him, and we're
(30:22):
all on a journey towards there.
What does then discipleship looklike? And how do we start to
orient people towards Christ inthe middle of people figuring
out sexual orientationidentities?
Unknown (30:35):
Yeah, one of the things that I think becomes really
important with young peopletoday is actually trust building
in a way that reflectstrustworthiness of God in their
lives, his desire to beintimately involved in these
questions and the 2000 otherthings that are flowing through
their minds on a daily basis.
And also, I think not expectingso little of our young people. I
(30:57):
think sometimes we can waterdown kind of the spiritual life
for young people in ways thatcreates environments in our
churches where it's really moreof a social club for them. And
if it's one among many socialclubs, they can opt in and out
of it like they would, kind ofother social context. And so you
mentioned Christ likeness, andthis is what we talk about a
good bit in the book, is, whatdoes it look like to help teens
(31:20):
move towards Christ, likeness,in prayer, in kind of a
relationship with God that isbringing in these questions and
all the other questions, and byour own presence in a youth's
life, saying, I care about thosepieces like God cares about
those pieces, Right? And I thinkbuilding that sense of trust,
acknowledging to how in anygiven faith community, different
(31:43):
generations are going to beusing different language for
these conversations. So if asermon comes up on a Sunday that
talks about people strugglingwith same sex attraction, for
instance, right or strugglingwith gender distress, can we
check in with our youth who arenavigating these questions and
help them interact with thatlanguage and help them know that
(32:03):
is more of that residualframework work that we write
about in the book, and whatthey're talking about is what
you're talking about when yousay abort a gender, right? And
arrow ace and so. But they'reusing different language,
helping with critical thinking.
Helping them know that I canbelong in a faith community
where people are going to uselanguage differently, and God's
(32:25):
kind of holding space for all ofus to come and worship in the
same space. So that's anotherpiece I think of. And then
lastly, trying to help the youthidentify pockets of safety in
their family, in the kind ofpastoral care team, not
expecting every single person inthe faith community to be
perfect in how they approach andengage with this. And I think
(32:47):
some teens I write about this alittle bit in the book really
are kind of taught right nowthat if people aren't right
where I am, they're not safe,they're not trustworthy. And so
I'm always trying to work withteens, have you kind of hold
space for your own experienceand differentiate from Yes, I
don't agree with this person inthis conversation in every way,
(33:07):
and I can still partake in thelife of discipleship and share
my perspective in a kind ofrespectful, mature way.
Joshua Johnson (33:15):
I mean, that's a discipleship issue for all of
us. I mean, because it seemslike our culture is in a place
where, if you don't have myexact same beliefs, or we're not
on the exact same page, we can'tactually communicate and talk,
and we don't know how to talkacross differences or language
or barriers. And so that is adeception issue for every single
(33:38):
person I want to know for bothof you, as you've been sitting
with people and helping peoplenavigate some of these things in
their lives, what have youlearned about the heart of God
as you've been sitting withpeople? It's a
Mark Yarhouse (33:51):
really, really interesting question. One of the
things that that we talk a lotabout it, when Julia talked
about trust and trustworthiness.
You know, the heart of God, inmy experience towards someone in
this space is that of a father.
And so I think young people arethe beloved, like they're
they're loved by God, and thatGod wants a relationship with
(34:14):
them. And so I think in someways, discipleship pairs well
with this. This next question isultimately, in my view,
discipleship is helping a youngperson trust that God is a good
and loving father whose ownheart and instruction in these
areas are going to be better anda path for flourishing than the
(34:39):
instructions and guidance theyhave from all sorts of competing
voices. And so again, from aministry standpoint, you know,
so much of our faith isinterpersonally mediated, like
we come to dare to trust God inthese ways because we're around
people who bear his name, and webegin to think it's plausible
(35:02):
that there could be a God likethat, because I've been loved
well by people who bear hisname, likewise, when I've been
mistreated by those same people,it's hard for me to believe that
there's a God behind this wholething that I could I could
trust, that I could feel lovedby right? So it's so important
for ministry, and I think forparenting, to sort of live the
(35:25):
live out, embody the heart ofGod, towards that, towards that
young person. They're Beloved.
They're loved by God. God wantsa relationship with them, and so
and in many cases, in myexperience, they have a
relationship with God. It'sfragile. It feels like something
that they're told by many otherpeople that they can't have.
They can't have both. They can'tbe in this space and also be
(35:48):
loved by God. And of course,those are things that you know
we have to push back against.
And but the love of the Father,the heart of the Father, I
think, is a big part of whatI've seen, yeah,
Unknown (35:59):
one of the pieces that always strikes me and feels
increasingly clear as I do thiswork is how volatile the human
heart is and how not volatilethe heart of God is that we have
our own anxieties andirritabilities and questions and
concerns that can so often drivehow we relate to young people
(36:20):
today, so many fear basedapproaches, and it comes when I
think about that for myself as aperson who's walked with young
people, as a friend, as apsychologist, that there can be
a fragility in me where I feelalmost as if the faith that I
hold or the teachings of theChurch are fragile in some
(36:41):
sense, and I need to kind ofprotect them and lay them out
kind of in a consistent way, orthey won't be so sturdy and so
strong. And I think the heart ofGod is not so fragile, and
certainly not driven by fear.
And so there's a way in whichthere's a steadiness to the
God's heart for people, apresence that is so stable and
(37:02):
ready to show up in thesecomplex spaces, and there's not
as much of a need to kind ofcling to anything that we in our
ministry may feel. The need tocling to our teachings are not
fragile. The heart of God is notfragile. People, and is really
ready to step into complexitywith people, into the trenches
with people, in a way that Ithink can be hard to mirror,
(37:24):
which is the blessing of notbeing God and trusting God's
presence with these young peopleas we imperfectly show up.
Joshua Johnson (37:35):
When I was growing up and a lot of people
were growing up, it felt likethere was a, it was almost a
binary of language. This is,this is wrong. This is right.
You know, this is moral. Thisis, this is bad, like there,
there's a binary type oflanguage. I think a lot of
people my age and older willprobably have a lot of that
(37:59):
similar language and thinking aswe're navigating a landscape
which is more open and thisbinary language isn't really
popular. How do we navigate someof those issues? What is like
God's desire for us? What isGod's desire not for us? And
(38:20):
what, what are we doing? How dowe learn a language that
actually points to God and Hisdesire for our lives and who we
are that is not just binarylanguage?
Unknown (38:31):
Yeah, I think one of the mistakes we've made is, is,
you know, well intentionedpeople hoping that if we
categorize this in binarycategories. So it's morally
problematic to identify as gay,let's say, or to use any one of
these labels, that if that'sframed as sin, the hope is we'll
kind of course correct people,or we'll keep them from doing
(38:52):
these things. And what we knowabout many people, including
teenagers, is that kind ofcategories of yes, no, good,
bad, in and of themselves, don'tcreate the context for us to
live virtuously and live inChrist like ways, if anything,
kind of doubling down on this isbad and this is good and that's
(39:13):
dangerous. Can create a sense offorbidden fruit. Can create a
sense of shame that actuallydoes drive compulsion in areas
of sexuality in ways that can bemorally problematic for people.
And so I think helping in ourkind of adult understanding of
this to recognize that if thehope is to help teens think
(39:34):
critically about language, ifthe hope is to help them think,
what would God have for me insexual relationships. Moving
forward, the way to do that isto create actual space for young
people to explore some of thislanguage and categories, instead
of moralizing the language assuch. Because again, these
teens, many times when theyshare with me, you know, I think
(39:56):
I might be arrow ace, they'renot engaging in any behavioral
shifts through that language. Ifanything, they're they're
abstaining from sexual activityout of that language. And so to
frame that in moral categoriescan be quite confusing for them,
as to, what am I doing wrong bysimply using these terms? And so
I think remembering in ministryaround sexuality that a teen
(40:18):
sharing these things with youmay have no bearing on behavior
in the kind of moral realm, andis simply, as Mark said earlier,
them trying to articulate in thelanguage that they are
referencing, a little bit abouthow they understand themselves
today at this time. And we cantalk, and we do in the book,
about how to offer kind offrameworks and teachings around
(40:42):
sexual behavior withoutexpecting that the ministry is
simply about yes, no, good, bad,and then we've kind of done what
we need to do in teaching thefaith.
Joshua Johnson (40:52):
How does gender and emerging gender identities
merge with sexual identities?
What is the overlap there? Andare we navigating some of the
same issues with genderidentity? Or is there an
overlap? Or are they verydistinct?
Mark Yarhouse (41:08):
Yeah, so a couple of years ago, we wrote a book
called Emerging genderidentities that sort of charted
this course of you know, whatare the developments,
particularly in the rise of, Iwould say non binary
experiences, and non binary isan umbrella term for a lot of
different experiences of genderthat reside either in between
(41:29):
the binary of man woman oroutside the binary. So we were
kind of just entering into thatspace. And then when we always
thought maybe we would do acorresponding book on emerging
sexual identities. And so thiswould emphasize more the
experience of attraction andorientation and things like
that. But as we were doing that,we realized that there was a
(41:50):
percentage of young people whowere doing both that that
concept of micro, minoritizedidentities drawing on both. So
gender is definitely a part ofthis conversation, particularly
emerging or emergent ways ofthinking about yourself. We
wouldn't want to think of it asrigidly. It's just about sexual
identity. It's often aboutgender identity and some
(42:12):
combination of the two. Sothat's, I think, increasingly
popular. And I don't mean itlike a. Necessarily a trend. I
just think it's increasinglyyou're seeing younger people
gravitating towards that as,again, ways of naming their
reality, naming theirexperience. Why would I just
name my sexuality when mygender's equally important and
(42:33):
either or both could be nonnormative? So no, it's
definitely in play. Again, withgender, I don't think person's
telling you anything reallyabout their issues of morality.
I think they're they're nottelling you things that you'd be
like, Oh, I don't know if that'smorally Permissible or
impermissible. They're justsaying, No, I'm, I'm pangender.
No, I'm, I'm a demi boy, like Ithey're just using language to
(42:56):
communicate something so superimportant that we get back into
the posture of I wonder, youknow, if I haven't heard that
before, I wonder what that meansto them. And some of these terms
will mean slightly differentthings to different people, like
if I heard non binary, because Iknow it's an umbrella term,
there's a lot of different wayspeople could be thinking about
themselves, just as if you heardtransgender. There's many ways
(43:19):
people could be thinking aboutthemselves, so that curiosity,
how might it function for them,is always a kind of a question
that I'm wondering about. Soyeah, those are entryways into
ministry, I think, in bothsexual and gender identity.
Yeah, the
Unknown (43:33):
biggest thing I see happening is young people who I
meet with are trying to leavespace for the people they
haven't met yet who may beadopting different gender
identities as they think inreference to sexual orientation,
so they may be more inclined tosay, you know, I'm I'm bi
romantic, to kind of account forthere's, there's a lot of people
(43:54):
out there that I might beattracted to at some point
romantically, who may identifyon a kind of continuum of gender
identity. So that's one waythey're related. Is I'm thinking
in reference to myrelationships, and who might I
be drawn to in some cases in theabstract, not always, but in
some cases in the abstract. Andso that's that's a nuance in how
these intersect. Another thing Isee is that some young people
(44:19):
are focusing on one or theother, as if I want to figure
out the gender identity piece,and use language around sexual
orientation that is kind ofexpansive enough to kind of let
me figure this out. Orconversely, I maybe know who I'm
attracted to. I have a sense forthat, but this gender piece who
(44:39):
I am as I show up inrelationships with other people,
including romantic ones that Ihaven't quite figured out yet.
And so I might use language thataccounts for more fluidity there
in order to kind of leave spacefor who am I. And I'm figuring
that out, and I don't know. Andso again, sometimes when teens
use language, we think of it asa way that they're kind of
putting their flag in the sandand they're digging in their
(45:02):
heels, when really sometimesthey're trying to use this
expansive language, actually, tocommunicate to you that I'm
actively wrestling with this andfluidity. That type of framework
helps me take the pressure offof some of these things at an
age when I have so much elsekind of vying for my attention,
and so that's maybe another wayI think of it, is they're,
(45:25):
they're kind of focusing on oneand then leaving the other a
little bit more flexible orloose, if you will, to really
account for the journey thatthey're on through adolescence
and emerging adulthood
Joshua Johnson (45:37):
as they're on this journey. I think a lot of
times when we, I mean, if I havesomebody come to me and they're
saying words I don't know. A lotof times I'm afraid I and
because I I just don't know thelanguage. I really don't know
how to talk to them. So I'mgonna, I might shut down as
they're coming to me. I mightengage, but as I engage there,
(46:00):
sometimes it's not going to behelpful if I just say, this is
all of who you are. This is yourcore identity. Sometimes we do
that to people too. It's likeyour emerging sexual identity is
the only thing really about you,and we make it the most
important thing about them. Soas people come to us, if we're
afraid, or if we're trying tosay, dealing with this issue,
(46:24):
what are some nuanced ways to toactually alleviate some of our
own fear of engaging inconversation around these
topics, and how, like, how muchimportance should we and wait?
Should we be giving thesetopics?
Unknown (46:42):
That's a great question. Yeah, I think a lot of
people are afraid that if theyover emphasize these pieces,
they're pushing somebody down atrajectory almost prematurely,
whether that's in the realm ofsexual orientation or gender,
and on the other hand, afraid ofsaying the wrong thing. And so
again, then that's where thefear leads to that shutdown. I'm
not going to say anything atall. And I think if that is the
(47:04):
case, it's been mentionedalready that teens value
authenticity, and that's a kindof metric for them. And so even
for adults to bring in a levelof authenticity that this is new
territory, like I'm trying tofigure out how to hold. All of
these things with you here, eventhat kind of appropriate
modeling of a bit ofvulnerability on the part of
(47:24):
adults goes a long way ininviting that type of
vulnerability from youth. Nowyou're not voicing I'm angry and
I'm scared and you're notgetting into all the details,
but just acknowledging I'mtrying to hold this piece of
your story that feels reallyimportant, and I also don't want
to be reductive of you, that'sone thing is, I think just
making that very explicit withyoung people is a value. And
(47:47):
then sometimes in ministry andparenting, this can almost,
yeah, as you said, take up allthe space on the screen where
suddenly all the conversationsin our family are about gender
and sexuality, and we're we'renot spending time with one
another in any other way. I'vesometimes told parents, you
know, when's the last time youdid something that you and your
(48:08):
child both enjoy doing together?
Oh, we both like biking. Well,why don't you go do that and
don't talk to each other?
Because it seems like thatthat's actually getting really
difficult right now, and socreating intentional space to
zoom out, as opposed to sayingmerely to our kids, you know,
oh, I don't see you as this. Youknow, you're you're not defined
(48:29):
by this. Because, again, thatcan be almost more of just
putting this in a box somewhereand hoping it goes away when we
do that. And so being able tocreate intentional space to
receive the whole person acrossfrom you is really valuable. And
then finally, I think, you know,in ministry especially,
sometimes we reference thesekids as if this is the only part
(48:53):
of their identity worth talkingabout. So that kids queer, that
kid's, you know, they just toldus they're non binary, and now
every ministry conversation isin reference to that kid and
their gender and sexualidentity, as opposed to, hey,
when's the last time you askedthem how their prayer life is
going? Right in general, whatare the things they're praying
about? What are the thingsthey're afraid to bring to God
(49:13):
in prayer? Well, those areministry questions, right? That
help them connect to God in thecommunity in a rich way. So even
how we talk with these youngpeople and about them, I think,
shapes our posture and our senseof expanding around this while
containing this aspect of theirstory.
Mark Yarhouse (49:33):
Well, I just, I would offer a couple other
pieces to compliment that. So Ithink one is to be prepared.
This book, this interview, thispodcast, helps you prepare that
you know that this is aconversation that's taking
place. So I think when we feelmore anxious is often we don't
know what's happening. We don'tknow that. We don't know that it
is happening. We don't know thelanguage is out there. So
(49:54):
preparing yourself be preparedis the first place we talked
about being curious. That'sanother one. If someone tells
you, your child, someone inmiddle school youth group, tells
you this, they're inviting youto learn something more about
them that you didn't knowbefore. So be curious like I
would take this as an invitationto greater intimacy, to know
(50:14):
this person better, versus apolitical discourse a how does
this fit with how I think aboutthis as this political party or
that political party? You cantake it to a political
ideological conversation, butyou've just lost an opportunity
to know them better, right? Sobe prepared, be curious. And
then lastly, be on the same sideand think about it this way, in
(50:37):
a tennis match or a pickleballmatch, if that's your thing,
you're either going to be on thesame side of the net facing
whatever's out there. Are yougoing to be on the other side of
the net? And a lot of times inministry and in as parents,
people can inadvertentlyposition themselves on the other
side of the net. So here's achild, you know, 1415, they're
(50:57):
telling you something. And soyou start to just go devil's
advocate. You can start to gopepper them with questions. You
start to sort of be and all of asudden you're, if you just
imagine where you are on thespatial, relational piece with
them, you're on the other sideof the net. And that's hard to
move away from that position.
But if you could think inadvance as a mother, as a
father, as a youth minister. Asthey share this with me, in my
(51:21):
mind, I'm going to locate myselfnext to them, facing whatever's
on the other side of the netmight be changing culture, might
be peer group, whatever it mightbe questions about God, it might
be all kinds of things. But I'mgoing to join them in facing
like, if they're asking reallyinteresting and good questions
about life, I want to be withthem as they ask those
(51:43):
questions. I've probably askedthose questions. I might be
asking those questions rightnow, but I don't normally talk
with this person about it, andhere they are opening up with
me. So location is a big thing,so be prepared, be curious, and
then be on the same side of thenet.
Joshua Johnson (51:59):
And that's that's a great place, actually,
to end conversation here,because that is really a hope of
what it looks like to engagethis conversation. To engage
your book emerging sexualidentities, which is out now and
available anywhere books aresold, so you could go and get
that is. Really helpful for meto walk through where things are
(52:23):
coming from, where they are now,these emergent sexual identities
and really navigating thesepastoral and parenting issues.
What does it look like to walkwith people as they're on this
journey? Was really, reallyhelpful for me. So this book, I
really highly recommend to goand get the book. I think it's
going to be really helpful for alot of people. I'd love to get a
(52:45):
couple of recommendations fromboth of you, of just anything
you've been reading or watchinglately. You could recommend
Mark Yarhouse (52:52):
things I've been reading. So I'm in a book club
right now, and we just readJonathan hates the anxious
generation, and so it actuallymaps on pretty well with what
we're talking about here, butjust understanding particularly
how the introduction not justlike you know, you can go back
to when was the internet firstbuilt, but like the use of
smartphones and the access tothem, and some of the things
(53:15):
that he recommends we do to sortof give kids a break from that
and what that does to them, tous, but particularly younger
people with smartphonetechnology. And then even the
way that certain apps allow youto not just post ideas and share
ideas, but now sort of critiqueand comment, and that's created
that whole atmosphere, thatcharged atmosphere of cancel
(53:40):
culture and people pushingagainst you and just piling on,
you know, with all yourfollowers against this person,
with their followers like hedocuments this by date of
release, and here's theempirical evidence for the
impact on young people inanxiety, depression. That's
maybe a little more soberingone, but that's the one we're
reading right now, and that'swhat we want to talk about in to
(54:01):
talk about our next
Unknown (54:02):
book club. So I'm more of a re reader of books I like.
Sometimes I read them once, andI think I should read it again,
because I forgotten the wholething. So there's a book by Eve
Tushnet called tenderness, andit actually reflects on her
experience of God as a gayCatholic. And what does it look
like to encounter the tendernessof God by virtue of being a
(54:23):
sexual minority, as opposed toseeing my experience as a sexual
minority as something thatserves as a barrier or a block
from my relationship with God,and in kind of rereading and re
reflecting on that, I think it'ssuch a helpful first insight
into some of the spiritualjourneys of people navigating
these questions in youth and inadolescence, and be thinking,
(54:45):
what are the kind of principlesand spiritual insights that we
want young people to be carryingwith them into adulthood, so
that their Christian faith issuch a resource to them as They
navigate these questions, asopposed to something that is an
impediment to authenticity andfreedom. And so I think that's
kind of Yeah, something recentI've been reading that has been
(55:08):
really rich, and also, I think,gives some guidance to listeners
on how to cultivate spiritualmaturity in the lives of
Christian young people.
Joshua Johnson (55:17):
Great recommendations. Is there
anywhere you'd like to pointpeople to? How can they connect
with you and what you're doing?
Mark Yarhouse (55:23):
Well, our institute, the sexual and gender
identity Institute, would begreat. So that's wheaton.edu
backslash SGI for sexual genderidentity Institute. I'm also on
X or Twitter and Instagram,
Unknown (55:37):
and my website is Julia sadusky.com and I'm on a little
bit of YouTube videos andInstagram and sub stack, also
doing some writing more recentlythat people can follow along
with
Joshua Johnson (55:50):
perfect Well Mark and Julia, thank you for
unpacking the emerging sexualidentities with us and really
walking us through what does itlook like To walk with people
and journey with young peoplethrough this time and this age
and what this looks like for usas ministers, as parents. It was
a fantastic conversation.
Hopefully it's really helpfulfor a lot of people. And so
thank you so much.
Mark Yarhouse (56:13):
Thank you.
Joshua, great to be with you.
Great to see you too. Juliet,you you.
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