December 5, 2025 • 57 mins
The church is in a moment of honest reckoning. Attendance is shrinking, institutions are thinning, and many who once belonged now stand on the outside looking in. In this conversation with author and priest Stephanie Spellers, we explore what the “nones” and “dones” are teaching us about faith, community, and the way of Jesus. Stephanie invites us to look directly at decline, name the shame we carry, and listen to the prophetic longings rising from a generation hungry for authenticity, belonging, and spiritual depth. We talk about Christian nationalism, idolized structures, meeting God outside our buildings, the table as a site of renewal, and the possibility of becoming a true Jesus movement again. If you care about where the church is headed, or whether new life can emerge from the dry bones, this episode offers clarity, courage, and hope.
Rev. Stephanie Spellers is a renowned author, Episcopal priest and change agent. Her newest book, "Church Tomorrow?: What the Nones and Dones Teach Us About the Future of Faith," explores the stories of nonreligious young Americans and their prophetic charge to traditional, declining religion. She recently completed nearly a decade leading The Episcopal Church's work on evangelism, racial reconciliation and environmental justice. Today she serves as canon in residence at St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in New York City.
Stephanie's Book:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Spellers (00:31):
Will the real Christians please stand up?
They're terrified of whiteChristo nationalism. They're
terrified that Christianity hasbeen co opted, abused by people
who have a political agenda butnothing to do with Jesus, where
they want to use the structuresand the symbols of Christianity
(00:53):
in order to hurt people, tocontrol people, to dominate the
culture. They see this, andtheir question of me and of us
is, where are the realChristians? You? Josh,
Joshua Johnson (01:20):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, you know,
the church is changing, and mostof us can feel it. Attendance is
dropping, institutions arethinning out, and the old ways
of being Christian just don'thold the same weight they once
(01:41):
did. But underneath all of thatloss is a deeper question, what
is the spirit inviting us intonow in this conversation,
Stephanie spellers helps us facethe moment with honesty and
hope. Her new book, churchtomorrow comes out of years of
listening to the nones anddones, people who've stepped
outside the church but haven'tstopped longing for God,
(02:02):
belonging, meaning or community.
What they shared with her soundsless like criticism and more
like a series of invitations tobecome real Christians again to
release our idols, to meet Godoutside our walls, and to form
communities where people canbring their whole selves. This
episode moves through decline,disaffiliation, authenticity and
renewal. It's about a faith thatdoesn't cling to institution for
(02:25):
its own sake, but leans into theway of Jesus, humble, embodied,
liberating and alive with theSpirit. If you care about the
future of the church, or ifyou've ever wondered whether
there can be one, thisconversation will speak directly
to you. So join us. Here is myconversation with Stephanie.
Spellers. Stephanie, welcome toshifting culture. It's an honor
(02:49):
to have you on thanks forjoining me.
Unknown (02:52):
Oh, thank you so much, Joshua, I'm really excited for
this conversation.
Joshua Johnson (02:56):
It's actually a really important conversation
that we need to have with thechurch that like, Okay, what is
the church of tomorrow gonnalook like? Is there gonna be a
church of tomorrow? We areliving in this period of
decline, especially frominstitutional Christianity and
the institutional church. So canyou just like, lay the
groundwork for us? Like, whereare we in the church? What has
(03:18):
been happening over the last 30years, 40 years, 50 years, we're
in a period of decline. What'sit look like? Ooh, it's rough
out there.
Unknown (03:28):
And most people don't need me to tell them that
I have often wondered, is like,I hope I'm not being gratuitous
and digging into some of thisdata, but, but I think it's
necessary, it is, but also tobring a theological lens to it.
I talk a lot about in this book,church tomorrow, what the nones
and dones teach us about thefuture of faith. I talk a lot in
(03:49):
this book about, there's thispicture of the valley of the dry
bones Ezekiel in that valley.
And you know, when we get quietand we talk about what it's like
in most of our mainlinecongregations these days, I'm
talking about Episcopal,Lutheran, Presbyterian,
Methodist, United Church ofChrist, American Baptist also,
(04:10):
increasingly some evangelicalcommunities in that group, we
know that something has beendying in our midst, a way of
life, a way of understandingChristianity and the church. And
so what I've the first part ofthis book, and really the
(04:30):
impetus, a lot of the impetusfor this book was just saying,
Can we sit with that? Can we notpretend it's not happening
because it's happening? So yeah.
So I talk about what it's likebeing in this valley of the dry
bones, and why, how we got here.
So a lot of what I deal with is,not only why have people
disaffiliated from church. Butwhy are they disaffiliated from
(04:54):
institutional life writ large?
What has happened in Americanlife that once upon a time,
people were defined by theirassociations, defined by their
relationships withorganizations, institutions, and
now that's just not the case. SoI kind of trace through American
(05:18):
history, you know, what are thereasons? What are the cultural
factors that led to thisdisaffiliation? And you won't be
surprised again, a lot of this,we know this. We know. That
there's greater privatization,that we are lonelier and
lonelier and more and moreisolated, and how we live,
(05:40):
especially thanks to technology,we know that there is
secularization, not just thatpeople are leaving religion
behind or don't believe in God,but more importantly, that that
the role of religion in Americanlife, and the trust that
religion holds in American life,that a lot of that has
decreased, and that people feellike they can question more and
(06:02):
honestly do life withoutreligion. And then another force
is pluralization. In otherwords, there's so many options.
And again, a lot of this isbecause of the internet, but
it's also just, you know, thezeitgeist you're like, I don't
have to choose. I don't have tochoose the person I'm going to
be with. I don't have to chooseto marry that person. I don't
(06:24):
have to choose what clothing Ilike best or what brands I like
best. I can shift around. I canmove around. And I also don't
have to really choose whatreligion or spiritual path I
want. I can piece all thesethings together. So when you
create a context like that,traditional religion just
doesn't make a lot of senseanymore. And that's where we
(06:47):
find ourselves. We don't makesense in this culture now.
Joshua Johnson (06:51):
So if we're in the institution at the moment,
you, I mean, you write declinehurts all over. It feels like a
judgment on our congregations,on us as followers of Jesus,
yeah. How does shame play a partand functioning in a part of
church decline? And then how dowe move from like shame to
(07:11):
truth, telling and honesty andsaying this is where we are.
Unknown (07:15):
Yes, yes, yes. That's so important. Yeah, that shame,
I think it's created a cloudover so many of our
congregations, so much of ourchurch life. You know that we
are apologizing for even beingthere? You know, on the one
hand, we wish people would comeand join us. But on the other
hand, we're constantly saying,but we know why, you wouldn't.
We know why. We know why, like,that's not helpful. That's
(07:39):
actually not helpful. We need toget re rooted in why. And again,
not just church, but why. Lifewith God, life with Jesus,
matters, and we need to getclear that there is an authentic
path that changes lives, that'schanged our lives, and the
(08:00):
clearer we get on that, and themore we're sharing from that
place, and not from desperation,not from shame and guilt, but
from Hope for what life with Godcan be that changes the energy
that changes the inner of theconversation. The other thing we
have to do is cultivatecuriosity, and that's what I try
(08:21):
to model in this book by goingaround interviewing non
religious people being like, youknow what? I'm not trying to
convince you to come to church.
I just want to know how you talkto God, where you find
belonging, and what you wouldtell us if we would be quiet and
humble enough to listen. It's adifferent posture entirely, but
(08:41):
it's a life giving posture.
Joshua Johnson (08:45):
It is life giving. That's what I love about
this book and your book so thatyou we are actually seeing the
stories behind the data, andit's not just data and the facts
and that could be so confusingto us. Like, okay, I don't know
how to grasp onto any of this.
So before we get into, like,some of the things that you
found out as you were talkingand being curious and reaching
(09:07):
out to the nuns and the DUNS,yeah, I want to hear about your
story because you were, you werea nun at at one point,
spiritually seeking and thenfinding yourself in church,
which you probably didn't expectin your life. That was the last
thing I expected. So how, whatwas your story like as you, you
(09:29):
know, as an example for us assomebody that is spiritually
seeking, yeah.
Unknown (09:36):
So as of this moment, Joshua, I have spent about half
of my life as a nun, n o n e andhalf of my life as a Christian,
so I still feel a lot of myheart still beats for those folk
who are out there with somesense of spirit, some sense of
(09:59):
longing, but for whateverreasons, they just have not
found their way into Christiancommunity, or they used to be in
it, and they had to go becauseit hurt too much for me. I grew
up down south. I grew up in asmall city in Kentucky, the itty
bitty capital city, Frankfurt.
My whole family is still there.
We were marginally connectedwith church, which is why, you
(10:24):
know, like when, when my cousinswere all getting baptized, and
I, for whatever reason. And waslike, Yeah, I'm gonna pass on
this. Nobody went crazy. Theywere just like, okay,
Stephanie's not gettingbaptized. I mean, they weren't
excited about it, but it wasn'tthe end of the world. And I
wasn't, you know, like,Stephanie's going to hell. So
(10:45):
there was already some flex inmy family, and I thank God for
that. There was room for forsome questions. But, um, but,
yeah. I went to high school inEast Tennessee, college in North
Carolina, and was always curiousabout spirituality. Always was a
deep. Kid. Was the one whowanted to have deep
conversations with everybody,but the moment it got anywhere
(11:08):
near church, was like, I'm good.
Bye. I could sniff out coercion.
I could sniff out exclusion. Isniffed out what to me, just
didn't smell like God. And Ididn't know a lot about God, but
I knew that, that the meannessand the limitations that were
(11:31):
presented to me as Christianity.
That wasn't God, that wasn't itwasn't Jesus. So later in life,
like when I was in my later 20s,after Divinity School, mind you,
I went to Harvard DivinitySchool, got my degree, thought I
would be a professor ofBuddhism. That's a whole I say
it's a whole other story, butit's all a part of the same
(11:52):
story. God was talking. God wasreaching me. However, God could,
yeah, eventually I startedmeeting Christians who were a
different breed of Christian,who were curious, who were
humble, who were connected topassionate about liberation
theology. They were followingsomebody that I recognized as
Jesus, and increasingly, Iwanted to walk with him and with
(12:16):
them. And so that was when I gotbaptized at age 2627 within
three years of baptism, I wasstarting to process toward
ordination.
It was the grease slick path.
Sometimes I wonder if that's whyI held out for so long. Because
once I was in there was going tobe like, there were no breaks.
(12:38):
It was just like, let's do itall. Let's give it all to Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (12:44):
I mean, in your story, I think it's probably a
lot of what you heard reflectedin your interviews is they're
looking for authentic faith,people that are actually wanting
to embody the ways of Jesus andactually look more like him, and
not just care about theinstitution and the church and
the culture that has shapedthat, but actually embody the
(13:06):
real life of Jesus in what itlooks like as a something that
We all have to reckon with everychurch, everybody, every person
has to reckon with. Oh, are weactually being shaped more by
the culture around us, or are weactually looking like Jesus?
Yeah, I mean, it is supposed tobe the core of faith. Is we're
(13:26):
actually like being disciples ofJesus, like
Unknown (13:30):
I heard that somewhere, brother, I feel like you're not
off track when you saythat we're called Christians.
You know, little little Christs.
That's what the early followerswere called, people of the way,
but they were also littleChrists. Yeah, so people should
see that in us, and the factthat often they haven't, again,
(13:54):
that's not something we shouldfeel shame. And you know, you
know, kind of do the cat of ninetails. And aren't we bad? Aren't
we bad? Because then we're juststill wrapped up in ourselves.
(14:52):
But the point is to say, Wow,God, we have said we would
follow you, and then not at all.
Surprisingly, we haven't, butit's never too late, and we want
to come home to you and thesemillennial and Gen Z, non
religious folk, at least for me,like they're ringing the bell
calling us back to ourselves andhopefully in relationship with
(15:17):
them, but more importantly, inrelationship with Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (15:22):
It really is all about like me, my individual
life, yes, who I am that'sseeped into the church as well.
It's really about me. You'retalking about a when we shame
ourselves. It's actually puttingthe impetus on ourselves and not
actually on God. We're notfocusing on on Jesus and trying
to follow him. We're actuallyreally focused on ourselves. How
(15:44):
do how do we make that shift inthe church in a culture that is
so me centered, and it is aboutwho I am individually, what's
happened to me? I know thatthere's a lot of difficulty in
community and communities ofhurt people, and we know that.
(16:05):
But besides that, we'll get intosome of that. How do we shift
that? How do we shift that focusback? Yeah.
Unknown (16:14):
I mean, this is formation. This is This is
hardcore formation. Right? But Ithink it's also remembering what
it is to be a counter culturalbody. I think that one of the
one of the reasons that we havedeclined to such a degree in the
last 4050, years is actuallythat we became so identified
(16:36):
with the culture, you know. Andagain, especially the mainline
churches that we were prettymuch, you know, like you
couldn't distinguish betweenchurches and kind of civic
religion, if you will, and civiclife. And so as as civic life,
as American culture, became moreand more individualistic. You
(16:59):
know, a lot of church life hasbecome more and more
individualistic. And so youhear, for instance, a lot of
especially mainline churches,saying, you know, it's whatever
you want. You know, whatever youwant to be doing, whatever feels
good. You can come to church,but you don't have to. You can
do this, but you don't have to.
We don't make demands. We don'task for commitment because we
(17:20):
don't want to to impress or toto press up on anybody's life.
And I actually, I think it's,you know, it's not surprising
that people get excited whenthey know that, wait, you're
asking me for a commitment, butit's because my life might
change. It's because my lifemight change for the better that
(17:45):
in a way, people want, and thisis where we can kind of use that
individualistic bent for good.
They want self improvement. Theywant to know that what they're
doing makes a difference, makesa difference in their lives and
in the lives of people aroundthem. So the more we can reclaim
(18:07):
again Christianity as a way oflife, as a way of following one
where everything changes. Yourlife changes, your community
changes, and again, for good. Itchanges because of this power of
love that the world couldn'tcreate and the world can't take
away. You feel a sense ofbelonging, at last, because you
(18:28):
are beloved in God, and you arebeloved in this community of
people who see God in you, themore we can present it, not just
present, but embody thatreality, that authentic calling
into community, that's anantidote to this culture of me,
that that authentic community,where community matters more
(18:52):
than I do, where I give my lifefor the sake of others. And
again, it's the core of thefaith. It's, it's, it's the it's
the word from the cross thatthere's something bigger than
your life, and people want tohear that. It's, it's
refreshing, it's countercultural. It's not what we've
(19:13):
preached because it wasn'tcomfortable, but, but it is a
word of life in in a world whereit's like it can't all just be
about me, and I got to tell you,Joshua, I heard that from a
number of young adults, a numberof millennial and Gen Z
Americans, who were saying, wheneverything is about me, I'm
(19:33):
exhausted when I have to findall The answers, when I'm the
only authority who matters,that's too much to put on me.
Like they want something bigger.
They want to be a part ofsomething bigger. And we've been
hesitant to offer that up.
Honestly, we've been hesitant tolean into the bigness of God.
(19:54):
We've made God too small. Andagain, they're not that
interested in a small God thatthey can kind of fit in their
pocket. I can take or leave thatguy as
Joshua Johnson (20:04):
an anecdotal story we have. You know, someone
within our community and ourchurch has a basketball
ministry, so a lot of kids fromthe inner city, the urban core
are coming in playingbasketball. And you know, he's
had so many people say, want tosay yes, to follow the ways of
Jesus. And it's through, he'sbeen using, through the story of
(20:27):
the wise builder and the foolishbuilder at the end of the sermon
on the mount. And he's like, youknow, the wise builder builds
his house on the rock, says hehears the words of Jesus, and he
actually puts them intopractice. And do you want to
build your house on the rock putthe words of Jesus into practice
together in community? And somany people are like, yes. And
he's like, Okay, do you actuallyrealize, like, what you're
(20:50):
committing to, this is acommitment, like, and so let's
ask this again. Do you want todo this? And they're like, yes.
I was like, Okay, let's do itagain. Like, this third time.
Like, this is like a commitmentto hear the words of Jesus, put
them into practice, doing itwith community. And so many
people are there. I you know,we're starting to find people
(21:13):
are hungry for that. Like,there's something that. I could
actually feel like my house ison a rock and it's not shifting
sand. Like, yeah, I want to dothat. I want to feel rooted.
What were you hearing as youtalk to the nuns and dones, what
are their questions? Where arethey finding spirituality and
(21:34):
God and community as they'reseeking outside of the walls of
church,
Unknown (21:38):
again, a lot of it we know intuitively, but it was
extraordinary to hear themtelling their stories, stories
of how they meet the sacred, themystery, the ultimate God,
Spirit in nature. There was adeeper understanding of that.
Then I gave them credit for it.
Like folks descriptions of howthey meet God in nature, how
(22:02):
they meet God in intimaterelationship, how they meet God
in in silence, how they meet Godin I'm like, kind of like going
through even what they weredoing with me, like all of these
sources of spiritual connectionand depth that and they're
(22:24):
finding that for themselves.
They're reading books, you know,that are spiritual books, but
they're reading maybe bythemselves. You know, I heard a
lot of spiritual energy. I hearda lot of spiritual engagement.
It's not surprising. You can youcan go into the spiritual
(22:45):
marketplace. It's incrediblyrobust. And you can find
pathways. You can findpractices. You can put together.
I call it your own, like bespokebento box, if you will. We're
like, Oh, I like this piece withthis piece, with this piece, and
then I want that one and thatone. And now I've assembled my
(23:06):
box. So that's actually not thatdifficult for folks. What's
hard, and this is the the the itwas tough to hear from them, and
tough for them to share, I thinkwas, where are you finding
community and belonging? That alot of millennial and Gen Z
(23:26):
folk, and again, the data bearsthis out, but to hear it was
heartbreaking how hard it is forthem to find community, how hard
it is, you know, folks weresaying, including a number of
them who used to be a part of areligious community, part of
Christian community. They'relike, you know, I don't miss
church because of the, you know,the rules, the faith, the
(23:51):
whatever I can talk to God, fineoutside. But community, I miss
that. I miss feeling like Ibelonged somewhere. I missed
feeling like I could landsomewhere. I was known, I was
loved, regardless of what I did.
I don't know where to find thatnow, and the desperation, the
quiet. There were some of theseinterviews, I left and I was
(24:16):
crying, Joshua, I had to hold ittogether. Some of these
interviews, they were crying asthey were sharing with me. So,
so it's hard to find community,and they're finding it. They're
forming it in kind of found sortof family of choice. You know,
they're finding it. One persondescribed how he and some of his
(24:36):
friends formed something theycalled the village, and it's
actually a number of friends whogrew up in churches and are not
a part of church now, so they'redoing it for themselves in
something they call a village.
And they get together, they praywith each other, they share
what's going on in their lives.
But he said, and this is a quotefrom him, like, we know we don't
(24:57):
have to play church. So they'vekind of formed it for
themselves. A lot of folk findit in kind of fitness
communities. Maybe they're doingyoga together, maybe they're
doing meditation together. Maybethey're running together. Run
clubs, and again, sometimes runclubs where, you know, they're
(26:17):
like, oh, yeah, we have athread, and we pray for each
other. I'm like, what you praywith your running buddies?
They're like, Sure, they havefolk who are like, having
dinners in their community, andsome are finding it in
alternative worship communities,there's a really fascinating
group called it's a secularSunday group, and they gather
(26:40):
across America and actually inthe UK as well. And they're very
consciously not religious.
They're secular. A lot of theirmembers are atheist, agnostics,
but they want community, and sothey get together, they sing
songs that are positive. Theyhave greeters, they have food,
they have a message, like all ofthis stuff. What they don't have
(27:03):
is dogma. What they don't haveis is the weight of all of that
tradition. So folk are findingways of forming community. It's
hard out there to do this byyourself, but honestly, for a
lot of them, they've been so.
Affected by church, or they justreally, they honestly, don't
believe a lot of what we've beenputting out there as the
(27:25):
essentials of faith. So they'retired of pretending, and they
need to do this on their own. Orthey feel like they do.
Joshua Johnson (27:33):
I mean, that's a difficult place for anybody to
be is trying to find it and doit on your own. Yeah, so is
there something? Then, if we'rewe're seeing this, it's hard to
find community. That group inAtlanta that's doing dinners
together the table seems reallyimportant to the Yeah, the
Christian faith of like, doingsomething around the table,
(27:57):
like, hey, the Eucharist isreally important, right? The
Communion is important, but thetable itself is also important.
That we're having faith aroundtables. Is there something with
the table that makes it feelmore authentic, real,
accessible? What is it about thetable? For some of these people
(28:17):
that you were talking to,
Unknown (28:18):
Jesus was on to so much. He he got so much, and he
understood that somethinghappens for people when they
gather, you know, four mealswhen they just come together.
And so it's not at allsurprising, you know, that these
college students were sharingwith me about leaving religion
but forming these almost likecollectives, where they can
(28:42):
share life. You know, people,people need to share life with
each other, and that does happenlike there's it's a physical
it's embodied when we comethrough the tables. I think what
people don't necessarily craveis being told you have to come
to the table in these ways,believing these particular
(29:03):
things, and so they want, theyneed some of that flexibility to
have conversation at the tableand not just be told what to do
at the table. You know that theythey want to, yeah, they want to
be taken seriously. Who doesn'tthey want their questions to be
honored? Who doesn't? A lot ofwhat they were asking for to me,
(29:27):
like made sense. There were fourprophecies, in fact, that they
shared with me. Can I? Can I
Joshua Johnson (29:33):
just share these? Yeah, we're gonna get
into them in just a minute. Soyeah, let's do it. Let's do it.
Let's do
Unknown (29:41):
it in a way. I feel like, like there's, like
there's, I feel like I got thechance to sort of sit with them
and sit with each of these, youknow, millennial and Gen Z nuns
and dones, and to hear thishonest word from them. It was
like, Why can't you all getthis? I felt them. I was like
crying out to me like and myresponse was, you're not wrong.
(30:03):
You're not wrong. About this.
They were trying to get us tounderstand in a way, like
there's a first prophecy that Iheard from them, which was, will
the real Christians please standup that they sense. They know,
they see. They're terrified ofwhite Christo nationalism.
(30:24):
They're terrified thatChristianity has been co opted,
abused by people who have apolitical agenda but nothing to
do with Jesus, where they wantto use the structures and the
symbols of Christianity in orderto hurt people, to control
people, to dominate the culture.
(30:48):
They see this, and theirquestion of me and of us is,
where are the real Christians?
We know that there's a word thatyou all have been given, but we
don't hear you preaching it. Wesee you hanging out, taking care
of your own, not sharing theword that you've been given. And
in this moment, we need to hearfrom you. We need to hear from
(31:10):
real Christians.
Joshua Johnson (31:12):
I've been wrestling with this. I want to,
I want to dive into that,because one of the things is, is
I know that if I, if I'm goingto do this podcast, and I am
going to be known about what Iam against, I'm going to get
more traction than what I'mtrying to do. Is before, yes,
the embodiment of Jesus inculture and like this is what
(31:34):
I'm trying to do. But because ofthat, there's not as much
traction, because people we livein an outrage attention economy,
that when you see those things,you're going to get more
attention. For some reason, Ithink that's why people are
using this Christianity fortheir political gains, because
(31:56):
they can yell it and scream itand get more attention than
others. Yeah, so for the people,the real Christians, that are
actually trying to stand up, andI see so many of them that are
being faithful, trying to followJesus in like extraordinary ways
that are out, you know,protesting outside of i.
(32:18):
Facilities that are on out onthe street, are feeding people
that are hungry, that are, youknow, visiting the prisoners,
like the things that Jesuscalled us to do. How do we get
that more visible, to say thathere is the authentic community?
Like, how do we do it?
Unknown (32:40):
Oh, well, the the response to that prophecy, like,
for each of these prophecies, tome, like, there's I, I did a lot
of listening and talking withcolleagues and folk who were out
on the street doing thisministry. And the thing, the
place where we landed was we'vegot to become a Jesus movement,
which means, so if the question,if the prophecy is, where are
(33:02):
the real Christians? The answerfor us is, Okay, put your big
boy, big girl, big person pantson, and become a Jesus movement.
So often Joshua, when we are outthere protesting at detention
centers, so often when we're outthere feeding the hungry. We're
doing it with the cross hidden.
We're doing it with Jesus hiddenbecause we almost don't want to
(33:27):
be associated with Christianity.
For the record, this is one ofthe main reasons for the decline
of Christianity. For thenumbers, is because a lot of
more progressive, liberal, evenmoderate Christians stopped
being associated withChristianity because they're
like, I don't want to be likethe Religious Right. I don't
(33:48):
want to be anything to do withthat. And so we've disaffiliated
from our own faith brother. Sowhat does it take? What it takes
is standing up like I'm gonnagrab something, and I know that
most folk folk are listening,but just stay with me. This is
right. It's right here I'mgrabbing something from I've
(34:11):
been in the no kings marches,and I carry this sign. What does
it say?
Joshua Johnson (34:18):
Joshua Jesus was woke exactly.
Unknown (34:23):
You would be amazed at the response, at the energy that
swirls around when I walk on thestreet. You know, with 1000s and
1000s and 1000s of New Yorkers,so many people want to take a
picture with me. They want toask me, is that sign what I
think it is. And they're kind ofbold. You know, folks are like,
(34:44):
that's right now. We can getinto the weeds around wokeness
and whatever. But the point isthat that if compassion is
wrong, I don't, I don't want tobe right. That that all the
things that people are or thatthe right is poo pooing, right
(35:07):
now I'm like, that's what's antiChristian. So we need to be even
more bold in saying, this iswhere Jesus stood. This is what
Jesus said. This is how Jesuslived, and we're not going to
get it perfect, but we sure aregoing to try to follow Him, and
we're going to be a movementwith her. We need to be vocal
(35:29):
about that. We need to beunapologetic about that. We need
to reclaim Christianity, and Ifeel that so much more
passionately, having spoken tothese nuns and dones, they have
fueled my conviction aroundgoing public as a Christian. We
need to be we need to be outthere, and we need to be
unapologetic and attach Jesus'sname to what we do when we're
(35:53):
out there loving in this world.
Joshua Johnson (35:56):
That's so good.
We operate out of assumptionsall the time. And so when
someone says the word Christian,they're going to think a certain
way, because they assume this iswhat I was raised in, or this is
what I've seen, or I haven'theard really anything, but I
assume it's this. And so youactually have to be really
explicit. So that's really good.
That's really, really good. Whatare the other prophecies that
(36:19):
came out of your conversationswith nones and dones.
Unknown (36:22):
Another prophecy from them was, can you please stop
making idols of your buildings,your institutions, your rules,
your dogma? Just enough of theidols again. They see how we
have built up our own structuresget all tangled up in protecting
(36:45):
what's ours. And of course, I'mtalking about buildings, but
also, just about like ourpolicies. Oh, my goodness, the
way we we build up governancestructures, we build up
coordination processes, andpeople who are watching, they're
like, Wow, you're so much moreconcerned about your structures
(37:08):
and processes than you are aboutcommunity or God. And like,
they're not wrong. And I. Lackof capacity to change the fact
that we cling to those thingsonce we've formed them. You
know, we cling to thosebuildings. We cling to those
structures, and we'll doanything to maintain them that
(37:28):
need to maintain institution,maintain structures. We look
desperate. We look like we'reclinging to idols. And so they
called us on that. The responsein my mind and what I heard and
what we've I think the reminderwe need, the response to that
prophecy is, wait, wait, wait.
Our institutions can innovate.
(37:54):
We can change. Now. Movementsneed some kind of institution.
They need some way of gettingsolid and sustaining. That's
true. A movement just just kindof rolling along by itself, like
you don't hear a lot of a lotabout those movements. So the
Jesus movement also needs tohave some feet. It needs to it
(38:17):
needs to have roots. Butinstitutions can innovate, so
folks need to see us being ableto flex and to embrace change
and to embrace the people whorepresent change, instead of
trying to get everybody inlockstep in our institutions and
get everybody like we'll onlyordain you once you've told us
(38:39):
that you are going to be astrong maintainer of what we
have already built. We need tobe ordaining people who not want
to blow it all up, but whounderstand that there are a lot
of ways to grow to love, toserve, to build. We need to
radiate that capacity forinnovation, and we need to
(39:00):
embrace it so. So the prophecyis, stop idolizing, and the
response is, go innovate.
Joshua Johnson (39:09):
So if you're looking at people inside the
church, inside the institution,they want to make sure that
we're holding on to the tenantsof the faith of Christianity,
yeah, and we don't innovate toofar. I mean, there's a balance
that, I think, that you get sofar progressive, you get post
(39:29):
progressive into a place ofsometimes conservativism is more
progressive than progressivismat some point, like, that's
like, that's countercultural,that is, you know, that's
something so where's the balancethere of innovation and then
holding on to, like, the thereal tenants of what it looks
(39:51):
like to follow Jesus incommunity.
Unknown (39:54):
I mean, honestly, I think this is where it comes
back to that the importance ofbeing rooted as a Jesus
movement. You know that, that ifwe know those beatitude values,
if we know like at least in theEpiscopal Church, we have
something we call the baptismalcovenant. And it's five
commitments that everybody who'sbaptized, every every baptized
(40:17):
person makes these fivecommitments we make, these five
promises, you know. We say, I'mgoing to challenge myself here,
you know. But you know, andtheir commitments to turning
from the way of sin, kind ofself absorption and toward God,
it's a commitment to being inprayer and in community and in
(40:39):
worship on a regular basis. It'sa commitment to sharing the Word
of God in in how we live andwhat we say, proclaiming the
good news. It's a commitment torecognizing God in every person
we meet and honoring God inevery person we meet, and it's a
(41:00):
commitment to justice and peaceand creating a world where
everybody can flourish as achild of God, those are the five
promises we make asEpiscopalians. If I am living
into those five commitments, theform of my worship should not
(41:20):
necessarily matter as much ashonestly it does to a lot of our
churches. So many churches aremore involved in policing
liturgy, policing worship andthose five promises that I just
told you about. You know, we saythem every, you know, every
service of baptism, but we don'treally say it much more. We
(41:42):
should flip that. We should flipit so that it's about living the
way of Jesus and liturgy andstructure and building and
everything else serve themovement of God's people, not
the other way around. So that,to me, is the way the balance
should work.
Joshua Johnson (41:59):
Amen, amen, let's do that. That's great. So
a couple of you had two moreprophecies.
Unknown (42:09):
What? Indeed, I love these. I feel like I'm
representing their propheciesout the world. So I feel like
I'm a messenger on their behalf.
You know, these nones and donessaid to me. Go meet the God who
is waiting outside. Just go. Wealready talked to God outside.
We think you all talk to Godoutside, but you act like God is
only inside this building, andwe know better. So go, go meet
(42:30):
God outside. And again, I'mlike, they're not wrong, dude,
they're not wrong. Lots of uscan tell stories about our most
spiritually lively experiences,and the story has something to
do with engaging in nature. Thestory often is something that
happened outside of church. Andyet, when we when we are looking
(42:52):
for where is God, we're oftentrying to put God back inside
the box. So I think the responseto that prophecy is to go, go
and explore and create authenticChristian expressions outside
the walls of church. And let'sbe clear, lots of us were doing
this during pandemic. Am Iright? We were out there because
(43:16):
we had to be. We were in theparking lot, we were in the
churchyard. We were wherever wehad to be in order to breathe
safely and still worship. Andthen what happened when the
doors opened?
We went back inside. Most of ourchurches, lots of our churches,
went back inside. So I hear thisprophecy telling us go back
(43:41):
outside. Like that service youwere doing in the parking lot.
Why did you stop? Like what washappening out there? Something
really wonderful was happening.
Your neighbors saw you, but youwere also engaging in a
different way. You wereloosening up. You were making
room for the spirit. And itshowed so, you know, I've, I in
the book, I offer examples of,you know, how folk are doing
(44:05):
this at church camps. Likechurch camps should be not just
a place that the kids go. Weshould all be reconnecting with
God in nature, using thosecamps. Because a lot of those
camps are dying, go reclaimthem. You know, we should be.
Everybody complains about, oh,all the kids are at soccer
practice on Sundays instead ofcoming to church. Like, well,
(44:27):
why can't church go to thesoccer field? I want to
understand why, like you send alot of our churches at the end
of worship. We have thecommunion kit and we send
someone to the hospital with it.
We send someone to the home ofshut ins with it. Send somebody
out with that kit to the soccerfield. Go so find ways of
(44:50):
engaging the God who is alreadywaiting outside. It doesn't
diminish church. It expandschurch. It expands what it is
for us to be the body of Christ.
Joshua Johnson (45:02):
How do institutions give permission for
that? I think that's where somepeople, they don't think they
have permission. So how do wegive permission and say, Go.
Unknown (45:15):
I mean, again, the permission is already there. You
know, like most of our churches,you know, got permission to do
church outside, to take churchto all of these other places. We
got that during pandemic. Inmost cases, that hasn't been
revoked. We've just gotten outof the habit because it was
something we took up out ofnecessity. What I would like to
(45:37):
suggest is that we are, let's,let's go back to seeing this as
a necessity, to understandingthat God is so active out side.
God always has been. It's in theword of Scripture. It's in our
own experiences. Personally, Godis shaking the tree saying to
(46:00):
us, I'm here, I'm here. Cometalk to me out here. And we
think, Well, I can only do thatwhen I'm going for a run, but I
can't bring church with me outhere. Ish, can church can go and
meet you out there. Church cango and, you know, we can have
holy hikes. Well, we can go andtake a hike and then have have
(46:21):
Eucharist on the hilltop. Howextraordinary is that? You know,
the permissions are all there. Ithink What's hard is that for a
lot of us, who are churchprofessionals, we have been
trained in doing church inside,inside the building, inside the
structures, we need to get outof our own heads. We need to get
(46:45):
out of the place where we havemastery, to a place where
actually maybe we realize God ismore in charge,
which is a good thing. Allright. One last Yeah,
one last prophecy, please,please, please. They said, Would
you? Would you stop with thefake, stop with the obligatory
(47:09):
and form loving, embodiedcommunities that welcome our
whole authentic selves, people?
Want to be real. And when theysee us being real, they're in
they're drawing. When they seethe Holy Spirit at work, they
can sniff her out and they wantmore. So to me, the like, the
(47:32):
best way to encapsulate this aslike, what's the response to
that prophecy? What I say is,let's dance, dance with the
spirit, but also let's dancelike, let's get out of our own
way. Let's stop having to haveit perfect. Let's, you know,
let's stop scripting everything.
(47:56):
And instead, let's dance, let's,let's allow the Spirit to
surprise us, and let's allowreal community to form. I often
sing, in fact, almost always,like if you if I preach, I start
out with a song. And the reasonwhy I do that is because when I
sing first, and especially if Iinvite people to sing with me.
(48:19):
It's a song that's not in thebook. There's no music in front
of people. We're just singing.
There is a way that we form acommunity, even just with like a
couple of lines of a chant,singing together, it breaks
through a wall, and we are beingreal together. If I preach into
that space, it is a completelydifferent sermon. I feel
(48:43):
different. The community feelsdifferent. It feels like an
actual community. So when I saylet's dance, what I really mean
is, let's take down the walls,let's, let's, let's actually
glory and connecting with oneanother authentically, and not
having it all figured out. Let'smove together and let's move
(49:05):
with the Spirit. The churchesthat are growing right now are
often the church is rooted inthe Holy Spirit. They're the
Pentecostals, the Assemblies ofGod is the one of the only
denominations, if you will, theonly one that's growing right
now, growing robustly over thelast decade or more, Assemblies
of God. And it's, I believe it'sbecause this is a tradition.
(49:28):
This is a faith rooted in theHoly Spirit, rooted in movement.
The Pentecostal churches werefounded Aha, with black people
in LA a Souza Street Revival,love and so even when you're in
a white LED Pentecostal church,there's something about that
(49:49):
movement of the spirit, the waythat oppressed people's black
folk, folk who needed Jesus likethey need water, that authentic
need for God, that authenticreach for God, that authenticity
that that allowing God to touchand change you and then
testifying about it, that'swhere the life is.
Joshua Johnson (50:14):
I was interviewing somebody. They
talked about a 12th century monkthat said that you believe that
the first millennium ofChristianity was the father, the
second millennium was about theSon, and the third which we're
about to enter we're enteringnow is the spirit, yeah, and it
kind of like that actually namedsomething for me that I kind of
(50:37):
been like, been feeling Like, itfeels like the age of the
spirit, like, like, we need toget outside. We need to, like,
move. We need to dance. We needwe need to play. We need to
follow the leading of the Spiritin ways where we've been a
little bit more, you know,structured and dogmatic and
institutional. Now it feels likeit's scarier, right? Because
(51:00):
it's more wild than it ever hasbeen before. But it, I don't
know, for me, just like the feelof it feels like, oh, that may
be right. There may be somethingto do with the spirit wildness
outside dancing that actually isimportant
Unknown (51:18):
well, and doesn't that bring us full circle, in a way,
to that valley of the dry bones?
Know that? You know that there'sEzekiel prophesying, and God is
saying, Prophesy breath, inother words, Prophesy spirit,
Prophesy life back into thesebones. And what happens? You
know, they start to cometogether. Those bones start kind
of knitting back together.
(51:41):
There's ligaments, there'sflesh. Fleshiness comes back to
the bones. There's breath in thebones, and they rise up and and
they they are an army. They area movement for God. And I feel
like, if we open to that spirit,if we rise up in this way, if we
(52:03):
ask God to breathe that freshspirit into our dry bones,
acknowledge that these bones aredry, but then say, God, we know
it doesn't have to be that way.
We know that you will always,always give your spirit if we
ask and then just say. Right? Wehear the nones and dones. We
hear our own deepest longings,and we know we need you, God, so
please just come in, come in andfill us and raise us from this
(52:27):
valley into new life, onto thehigher places, so that we can
proclaim your love. That's thecalling. That's a moment. Amen.
Joshua Johnson (52:41):
Amen, beautiful church tomorrow. Let's do that.
Let's do that. Amen. Couplereally quick questions here at
the end for you, Stephanie, one,if you go back to your 21 year
old self, what advice
Unknown (52:54):
would you give? I would say to her, you're not wrong. A
lot of a lot of what you see inchurch, a lot of the reasons you
were hanging out on the edge andquestion Christianity, you are
not wrong, kiddo, and there'smore, don't give up. Don't give
up on on Jesus. Don't give up onthis crusty old, nasty
(53:21):
structure. There is a life thatis possible here. Don't give up
on it, please.
Joshua Johnson (53:27):
So good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend, Oh,
Unknown (53:37):
I love pop culture and so, yeah, a lot of what I'm
watching and reading, honestly,my husband and I just started
watching a new show last night.
It's called, I think you shouldleave Tim Robinson. I think is
the guy it is. It is an entryinto the utterly absurd. So I
mean, like you're asking, I'mtelling you, it is so completely
(54:00):
absurd. But honestly, when I'mwatching it, part of what I'm
seeing, I feel like, like, oh,so this is how a lot of younger
folk are like, are inhabiting,this is the world they're
inhabiting, where it's just,it's, it's, it's unhinged in a
way.
(54:23):
So it's, it's a good lesson forme, honestly, around Oh, wow,
this is how unhinged things canget. I'm also watching The
Witcher, which is, I mean, it's,it's what it sounds like, I
mean, so it's kind of that scifi fantasy sort of thing. And
because I'm curious too abouthow are people again, how are
people reading enchantment intothis world and telling those
(54:47):
stories, and where does churcheven begin to enter into that
conversation? So I'm reallycurious about that.
Joshua Johnson (54:55):
Stephanie, this book, church tomorrow is out.
Will be out anywhere books aresold. You go and get it where
Unknown (55:03):
books are sold. If you pre order it right now, you'll
you'll have it within withindays and and the official launch
is December the second, and I'llbe traveling the country,
touring with this book for thefirst half of 2026 so maybe we
can continue the conversation inperson. Yeah, so
Joshua Johnson (55:22):
let's continue the conversation. Where can
people connect with you? Maybefind out about where you're
going to be and where would youlike to point people to?
Unknown (55:30):
I point folks to my website. It's Stephanie
spellers.com/church, tomorrow.
Perfect. There you go. So just,I actually was just updating the
book tour events scheduleyesterday, so, but it's growing
all the time, and I'd love toyou know, you write a book
(55:50):
hoping to start a conversation.
Yeah, you don't write a bookjust to heal yourself. Think. So
I really look forward tocontinuing. And I'm so grateful
to have had this conversationwith you,
Joshua Johnson (56:03):
yes, and I with you. And this is a perfect book
for a conversation and to starta conversation. So I just want
everybody to go and get it, thento then sit with it. Sit with
these questions, sit with theseprophecies, and just wrestle
with it. What does it look likein your own community and with
the people around you. SoStephanie, this was fantastic.
(56:24):
Thank you so much. Thank you
Unknown (56:26):
so much. God bless. God bless. The revolution. Amen.
You. You.
Will the real Christians please stand up?
They're terrified of whiteChristo nationalism. They're
terrified that Christianity hasbeen co opted, abused by people
who have a political agenda butnothing to do with Jesus, where
they want to use the structuresand the symbols of Christianity
(00:53):
in order to hurt people, tocontrol people, to dominate the
culture. They see this, andtheir question of me and of us
is, where are the realChristians? You? Josh,
Joshua Johnson (01:20):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, you know,
the church is changing, and mostof us can feel it. Attendance is
dropping, institutions arethinning out, and the old ways
of being Christian just don'thold the same weight they once
(01:41):
did. But underneath all of thatloss is a deeper question, what
is the spirit inviting us intonow in this conversation,
Stephanie spellers helps us facethe moment with honesty and
hope. Her new book, churchtomorrow comes out of years of
listening to the nones anddones, people who've stepped
outside the church but haven'tstopped longing for God,
(02:02):
belonging, meaning or community.
What they shared with her soundsless like criticism and more
like a series of invitations tobecome real Christians again to
release our idols, to meet Godoutside our walls, and to form
communities where people canbring their whole selves. This
episode moves through decline,disaffiliation, authenticity and
renewal. It's about a faith thatdoesn't cling to institution for
(02:25):
its own sake, but leans into theway of Jesus, humble, embodied,
liberating and alive with theSpirit. If you care about the
future of the church, or ifyou've ever wondered whether
there can be one, thisconversation will speak directly
to you. So join us. Here is myconversation with Stephanie.
Spellers. Stephanie, welcome toshifting culture. It's an honor
(02:49):
to have you on thanks forjoining me.
Unknown (02:52):
Oh, thank you so much, Joshua, I'm really excited for
this conversation.
Joshua Johnson (02:56):
It's actually a really important conversation
that we need to have with thechurch that like, Okay, what is
the church of tomorrow gonnalook like? Is there gonna be a
church of tomorrow? We areliving in this period of
decline, especially frominstitutional Christianity and
the institutional church. So canyou just like, lay the
groundwork for us? Like, whereare we in the church? What has
(03:18):
been happening over the last 30years, 40 years, 50 years, we're
in a period of decline. What'sit look like? Ooh, it's rough
out there.
Unknown (03:28):
And most people don't need me to tell them that
I have often wondered, is like,I hope I'm not being gratuitous
and digging into some of thisdata, but, but I think it's
necessary, it is, but also tobring a theological lens to it.
I talk a lot about in this book,church tomorrow, what the nones
and dones teach us about thefuture of faith. I talk a lot in
(03:49):
this book about, there's thispicture of the valley of the dry
bones Ezekiel in that valley.
And you know, when we get quietand we talk about what it's like
in most of our mainlinecongregations these days, I'm
talking about Episcopal,Lutheran, Presbyterian,
Methodist, United Church ofChrist, American Baptist also,
(04:10):
increasingly some evangelicalcommunities in that group, we
know that something has beendying in our midst, a way of
life, a way of understandingChristianity and the church. And
so what I've the first part ofthis book, and really the
(04:30):
impetus, a lot of the impetusfor this book was just saying,
Can we sit with that? Can we notpretend it's not happening
because it's happening? So yeah.
So I talk about what it's likebeing in this valley of the dry
bones, and why, how we got here.
So a lot of what I deal with is,not only why have people
disaffiliated from church. Butwhy are they disaffiliated from
(04:54):
institutional life writ large?
What has happened in Americanlife that once upon a time,
people were defined by theirassociations, defined by their
relationships withorganizations, institutions, and
now that's just not the case. SoI kind of trace through American
(05:18):
history, you know, what are thereasons? What are the cultural
factors that led to thisdisaffiliation? And you won't be
surprised again, a lot of this,we know this. We know. That
there's greater privatization,that we are lonelier and
lonelier and more and moreisolated, and how we live,
(05:40):
especially thanks to technology,we know that there is
secularization, not just thatpeople are leaving religion
behind or don't believe in God,but more importantly, that that
the role of religion in Americanlife, and the trust that
religion holds in American life,that a lot of that has
decreased, and that people feellike they can question more and
(06:02):
honestly do life withoutreligion. And then another force
is pluralization. In otherwords, there's so many options.
And again, a lot of this isbecause of the internet, but
it's also just, you know, thezeitgeist you're like, I don't
have to choose. I don't have tochoose the person I'm going to
be with. I don't have to chooseto marry that person. I don't
(06:24):
have to choose what clothing Ilike best or what brands I like
best. I can shift around. I canmove around. And I also don't
have to really choose whatreligion or spiritual path I
want. I can piece all thesethings together. So when you
create a context like that,traditional religion just
doesn't make a lot of senseanymore. And that's where we
(06:47):
find ourselves. We don't makesense in this culture now.
Joshua Johnson (06:51):
So if we're in the institution at the moment,
you, I mean, you write declinehurts all over. It feels like a
judgment on our congregations,on us as followers of Jesus,
yeah. How does shame play a partand functioning in a part of
church decline? And then how dowe move from like shame to
(07:11):
truth, telling and honesty andsaying this is where we are.
Unknown (07:15):
Yes, yes, yes. That's so important. Yeah, that shame,
I think it's created a cloudover so many of our
congregations, so much of ourchurch life. You know that we
are apologizing for even beingthere? You know, on the one
hand, we wish people would comeand join us. But on the other
hand, we're constantly saying,but we know why, you wouldn't.
We know why. We know why, like,that's not helpful. That's
(07:39):
actually not helpful. We need toget re rooted in why. And again,
not just church, but why. Lifewith God, life with Jesus,
matters, and we need to getclear that there is an authentic
path that changes lives, that'schanged our lives, and the
(08:00):
clearer we get on that, and themore we're sharing from that
place, and not from desperation,not from shame and guilt, but
from Hope for what life with Godcan be that changes the energy
that changes the inner of theconversation. The other thing we
have to do is cultivatecuriosity, and that's what I try
(08:21):
to model in this book by goingaround interviewing non
religious people being like, youknow what? I'm not trying to
convince you to come to church.
I just want to know how you talkto God, where you find
belonging, and what you wouldtell us if we would be quiet and
humble enough to listen. It's adifferent posture entirely, but
(08:41):
it's a life giving posture.
Joshua Johnson (08:45):
It is life giving. That's what I love about
this book and your book so thatyou we are actually seeing the
stories behind the data, andit's not just data and the facts
and that could be so confusingto us. Like, okay, I don't know
how to grasp onto any of this.
So before we get into, like,some of the things that you
found out as you were talkingand being curious and reaching
(09:07):
out to the nuns and the DUNS,yeah, I want to hear about your
story because you were, you werea nun at at one point,
spiritually seeking and thenfinding yourself in church,
which you probably didn't expectin your life. That was the last
thing I expected. So how, whatwas your story like as you, you
(09:29):
know, as an example for us assomebody that is spiritually
seeking, yeah.
Unknown (09:36):
So as of this moment, Joshua, I have spent about half
of my life as a nun, n o n e andhalf of my life as a Christian,
so I still feel a lot of myheart still beats for those folk
who are out there with somesense of spirit, some sense of
(09:59):
longing, but for whateverreasons, they just have not
found their way into Christiancommunity, or they used to be in
it, and they had to go becauseit hurt too much for me. I grew
up down south. I grew up in asmall city in Kentucky, the itty
bitty capital city, Frankfurt.
My whole family is still there.
We were marginally connectedwith church, which is why, you
(10:24):
know, like when, when my cousinswere all getting baptized, and
I, for whatever reason. And waslike, Yeah, I'm gonna pass on
this. Nobody went crazy. Theywere just like, okay,
Stephanie's not gettingbaptized. I mean, they weren't
excited about it, but it wasn'tthe end of the world. And I
wasn't, you know, like,Stephanie's going to hell. So
(10:45):
there was already some flex inmy family, and I thank God for
that. There was room for forsome questions. But, um, but,
yeah. I went to high school inEast Tennessee, college in North
Carolina, and was always curiousabout spirituality. Always was a
deep. Kid. Was the one whowanted to have deep
conversations with everybody,but the moment it got anywhere
(11:08):
near church, was like, I'm good.
Bye. I could sniff out coercion.
I could sniff out exclusion. Isniffed out what to me, just
didn't smell like God. And Ididn't know a lot about God, but
I knew that, that the meannessand the limitations that were
(11:31):
presented to me as Christianity.
That wasn't God, that wasn't itwasn't Jesus. So later in life,
like when I was in my later 20s,after Divinity School, mind you,
I went to Harvard DivinitySchool, got my degree, thought I
would be a professor ofBuddhism. That's a whole I say
it's a whole other story, butit's all a part of the same
(11:52):
story. God was talking. God wasreaching me. However, God could,
yeah, eventually I startedmeeting Christians who were a
different breed of Christian,who were curious, who were
humble, who were connected topassionate about liberation
theology. They were followingsomebody that I recognized as
Jesus, and increasingly, Iwanted to walk with him and with
(12:16):
them. And so that was when I gotbaptized at age 2627 within
three years of baptism, I wasstarting to process toward
ordination.
It was the grease slick path.
Sometimes I wonder if that's whyI held out for so long. Because
once I was in there was going tobe like, there were no breaks.
(12:38):
It was just like, let's do itall. Let's give it all to Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (12:44):
I mean, in your story, I think it's probably a
lot of what you heard reflectedin your interviews is they're
looking for authentic faith,people that are actually wanting
to embody the ways of Jesus andactually look more like him, and
not just care about theinstitution and the church and
the culture that has shapedthat, but actually embody the
(13:06):
real life of Jesus in what itlooks like as a something that
We all have to reckon with everychurch, everybody, every person
has to reckon with. Oh, are weactually being shaped more by
the culture around us, or are weactually looking like Jesus?
Yeah, I mean, it is supposed tobe the core of faith. Is we're
(13:26):
actually like being disciples ofJesus, like
Unknown (13:30):
I heard that somewhere, brother, I feel like you're not
off track when you saythat we're called Christians.
You know, little little Christs.
That's what the early followerswere called, people of the way,
but they were also littleChrists. Yeah, so people should
see that in us, and the factthat often they haven't, again,
(13:54):
that's not something we shouldfeel shame. And you know, you
know, kind of do the cat of ninetails. And aren't we bad? Aren't
we bad? Because then we're juststill wrapped up in ourselves.
(14:52):
But the point is to say, Wow,God, we have said we would
follow you, and then not at all.
Surprisingly, we haven't, butit's never too late, and we want
to come home to you and thesemillennial and Gen Z, non
religious folk, at least for me,like they're ringing the bell
calling us back to ourselves andhopefully in relationship with
(15:17):
them, but more importantly, inrelationship with Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (15:22):
It really is all about like me, my individual
life, yes, who I am that'sseeped into the church as well.
It's really about me. You'retalking about a when we shame
ourselves. It's actually puttingthe impetus on ourselves and not
actually on God. We're notfocusing on on Jesus and trying
to follow him. We're actuallyreally focused on ourselves. How
(15:44):
do how do we make that shift inthe church in a culture that is
so me centered, and it is aboutwho I am individually, what's
happened to me? I know thatthere's a lot of difficulty in
community and communities ofhurt people, and we know that.
(16:05):
But besides that, we'll get intosome of that. How do we shift
that? How do we shift that focusback? Yeah.
Unknown (16:14):
I mean, this is formation. This is This is
hardcore formation. Right? But Ithink it's also remembering what
it is to be a counter culturalbody. I think that one of the
one of the reasons that we havedeclined to such a degree in the
last 4050, years is actuallythat we became so identified
(16:36):
with the culture, you know. Andagain, especially the mainline
churches that we were prettymuch, you know, like you
couldn't distinguish betweenchurches and kind of civic
religion, if you will, and civiclife. And so as as civic life,
as American culture, became moreand more individualistic. You
(16:59):
know, a lot of church life hasbecome more and more
individualistic. And so youhear, for instance, a lot of
especially mainline churches,saying, you know, it's whatever
you want. You know, whatever youwant to be doing, whatever feels
good. You can come to church,but you don't have to. You can
do this, but you don't have to.
We don't make demands. We don'task for commitment because we
(17:20):
don't want to to impress or toto press up on anybody's life.
And I actually, I think it's,you know, it's not surprising
that people get excited whenthey know that, wait, you're
asking me for a commitment, butit's because my life might
change. It's because my lifemight change for the better that
(17:45):
in a way, people want, and thisis where we can kind of use that
individualistic bent for good.
They want self improvement. Theywant to know that what they're
doing makes a difference, makesa difference in their lives and
in the lives of people aroundthem. So the more we can reclaim
(18:07):
again Christianity as a way oflife, as a way of following one
where everything changes. Yourlife changes, your community
changes, and again, for good. Itchanges because of this power of
love that the world couldn'tcreate and the world can't take
away. You feel a sense ofbelonging, at last, because you
(18:28):
are beloved in God, and you arebeloved in this community of
people who see God in you, themore we can present it, not just
present, but embody thatreality, that authentic calling
into community, that's anantidote to this culture of me,
that that authentic community,where community matters more
(18:52):
than I do, where I give my lifefor the sake of others. And
again, it's the core of thefaith. It's, it's, it's the it's
the word from the cross thatthere's something bigger than
your life, and people want tohear that. It's, it's
refreshing, it's countercultural. It's not what we've
(19:13):
preached because it wasn'tcomfortable, but, but it is a
word of life in in a world whereit's like it can't all just be
about me, and I got to tell you,Joshua, I heard that from a
number of young adults, a numberof millennial and Gen Z
Americans, who were saying, wheneverything is about me, I'm
(19:33):
exhausted when I have to findall The answers, when I'm the
only authority who matters,that's too much to put on me.
Like they want something bigger.
They want to be a part ofsomething bigger. And we've been
hesitant to offer that up.
Honestly, we've been hesitant tolean into the bigness of God.
(19:54):
We've made God too small. Andagain, they're not that
interested in a small God thatthey can kind of fit in their
pocket. I can take or leave thatguy as
Joshua Johnson (20:04):
an anecdotal story we have. You know, someone
within our community and ourchurch has a basketball
ministry, so a lot of kids fromthe inner city, the urban core
are coming in playingbasketball. And you know, he's
had so many people say, want tosay yes, to follow the ways of
Jesus. And it's through, he'sbeen using, through the story of
(20:27):
the wise builder and the foolishbuilder at the end of the sermon
on the mount. And he's like, youknow, the wise builder builds
his house on the rock, says hehears the words of Jesus, and he
actually puts them intopractice. And do you want to
build your house on the rock putthe words of Jesus into practice
together in community? And somany people are like, yes. And
he's like, Okay, do you actuallyrealize, like, what you're
(20:50):
committing to, this is acommitment, like, and so let's
ask this again. Do you want todo this? And they're like, yes.
I was like, Okay, let's do itagain. Like, this third time.
Like, this is like a commitmentto hear the words of Jesus, put
them into practice, doing itwith community. And so many
people are there. I you know,we're starting to find people
(21:13):
are hungry for that. Like,there's something that. I could
actually feel like my house ison a rock and it's not shifting
sand. Like, yeah, I want to dothat. I want to feel rooted.
What were you hearing as youtalk to the nuns and dones, what
are their questions? Where arethey finding spirituality and
(21:34):
God and community as they'reseeking outside of the walls of
church,
Unknown (21:38):
again, a lot of it we know intuitively, but it was
extraordinary to hear themtelling their stories, stories
of how they meet the sacred, themystery, the ultimate God,
Spirit in nature. There was adeeper understanding of that.
Then I gave them credit for it.
Like folks descriptions of howthey meet God in nature, how
(22:02):
they meet God in intimaterelationship, how they meet God
in in silence, how they meet Godin I'm like, kind of like going
through even what they weredoing with me, like all of these
sources of spiritual connectionand depth that and they're
(22:24):
finding that for themselves.
They're reading books, you know,that are spiritual books, but
they're reading maybe bythemselves. You know, I heard a
lot of spiritual energy. I hearda lot of spiritual engagement.
It's not surprising. You can youcan go into the spiritual
(22:45):
marketplace. It's incrediblyrobust. And you can find
pathways. You can findpractices. You can put together.
I call it your own, like bespokebento box, if you will. We're
like, Oh, I like this piece withthis piece, with this piece, and
then I want that one and thatone. And now I've assembled my
(23:06):
box. So that's actually not thatdifficult for folks. What's
hard, and this is the the the itwas tough to hear from them, and
tough for them to share, I thinkwas, where are you finding
community and belonging? That alot of millennial and Gen Z
(23:26):
folk, and again, the data bearsthis out, but to hear it was
heartbreaking how hard it is forthem to find community, how hard
it is, you know, folks weresaying, including a number of
them who used to be a part of areligious community, part of
Christian community. They'relike, you know, I don't miss
church because of the, you know,the rules, the faith, the
(23:51):
whatever I can talk to God, fineoutside. But community, I miss
that. I miss feeling like Ibelonged somewhere. I missed
feeling like I could landsomewhere. I was known, I was
loved, regardless of what I did.
I don't know where to find thatnow, and the desperation, the
quiet. There were some of theseinterviews, I left and I was
(24:16):
crying, Joshua, I had to hold ittogether. Some of these
interviews, they were crying asthey were sharing with me. So,
so it's hard to find community,and they're finding it. They're
forming it in kind of found sortof family of choice. You know,
they're finding it. One persondescribed how he and some of his
(24:36):
friends formed something theycalled the village, and it's
actually a number of friends whogrew up in churches and are not
a part of church now, so they'redoing it for themselves in
something they call a village.
And they get together, they praywith each other, they share
what's going on in their lives.
But he said, and this is a quotefrom him, like, we know we don't
(24:57):
have to play church. So they'vekind of formed it for
themselves. A lot of folk findit in kind of fitness
communities. Maybe they're doingyoga together, maybe they're
doing meditation together. Maybethey're running together. Run
clubs, and again, sometimes runclubs where, you know, they're
(26:17):
like, oh, yeah, we have athread, and we pray for each
other. I'm like, what you praywith your running buddies?
They're like, Sure, they havefolk who are like, having
dinners in their community, andsome are finding it in
alternative worship communities,there's a really fascinating
group called it's a secularSunday group, and they gather
(26:40):
across America and actually inthe UK as well. And they're very
consciously not religious.
They're secular. A lot of theirmembers are atheist, agnostics,
but they want community, and sothey get together, they sing
songs that are positive. Theyhave greeters, they have food,
they have a message, like all ofthis stuff. What they don't have
(27:03):
is dogma. What they don't haveis is the weight of all of that
tradition. So folk are findingways of forming community. It's
hard out there to do this byyourself, but honestly, for a
lot of them, they've been so.
Affected by church, or they justreally, they honestly, don't
believe a lot of what we've beenputting out there as the
(27:25):
essentials of faith. So they'retired of pretending, and they
need to do this on their own. Orthey feel like they do.
Joshua Johnson (27:33):
I mean, that's a difficult place for anybody to
be is trying to find it and doit on your own. Yeah, so is
there something? Then, if we'rewe're seeing this, it's hard to
find community. That group inAtlanta that's doing dinners
together the table seems reallyimportant to the Yeah, the
Christian faith of like, doingsomething around the table,
(27:57):
like, hey, the Eucharist isreally important, right? The
Communion is important, but thetable itself is also important.
That we're having faith aroundtables. Is there something with
the table that makes it feelmore authentic, real,
accessible? What is it about thetable? For some of these people
(28:17):
that you were talking to,
Unknown (28:18):
Jesus was on to so much. He he got so much, and he
understood that somethinghappens for people when they
gather, you know, four mealswhen they just come together.
And so it's not at allsurprising, you know, that these
college students were sharingwith me about leaving religion
but forming these almost likecollectives, where they can
(28:42):
share life. You know, people,people need to share life with
each other, and that does happenlike there's it's a physical
it's embodied when we comethrough the tables. I think what
people don't necessarily craveis being told you have to come
to the table in these ways,believing these particular
(29:03):
things, and so they want, theyneed some of that flexibility to
have conversation at the tableand not just be told what to do
at the table. You know that theythey want to, yeah, they want to
be taken seriously. Who doesn'tthey want their questions to be
honored? Who doesn't? A lot ofwhat they were asking for to me,
(29:27):
like made sense. There were fourprophecies, in fact, that they
shared with me. Can I? Can I
Joshua Johnson (29:33):
just share these? Yeah, we're gonna get
into them in just a minute. Soyeah, let's do it. Let's do it.
Let's do
Unknown (29:41):
it in a way. I feel like, like there's, like
there's, I feel like I got thechance to sort of sit with them
and sit with each of these, youknow, millennial and Gen Z nuns
and dones, and to hear thishonest word from them. It was
like, Why can't you all getthis? I felt them. I was like
crying out to me like and myresponse was, you're not wrong.
(30:03):
You're not wrong. About this.
They were trying to get us tounderstand in a way, like
there's a first prophecy that Iheard from them, which was, will
the real Christians please standup that they sense. They know,
they see. They're terrified ofwhite Christo nationalism.
(30:24):
They're terrified thatChristianity has been co opted,
abused by people who have apolitical agenda but nothing to
do with Jesus, where they wantto use the structures and the
symbols of Christianity in orderto hurt people, to control
people, to dominate the culture.
(30:48):
They see this, and theirquestion of me and of us is,
where are the real Christians?
We know that there's a word thatyou all have been given, but we
don't hear you preaching it. Wesee you hanging out, taking care
of your own, not sharing theword that you've been given. And
in this moment, we need to hearfrom you. We need to hear from
(31:10):
real Christians.
Joshua Johnson (31:12):
I've been wrestling with this. I want to,
I want to dive into that,because one of the things is, is
I know that if I, if I'm goingto do this podcast, and I am
going to be known about what Iam against, I'm going to get
more traction than what I'mtrying to do. Is before, yes,
the embodiment of Jesus inculture and like this is what
(31:34):
I'm trying to do. But because ofthat, there's not as much
traction, because people we livein an outrage attention economy,
that when you see those things,you're going to get more
attention. For some reason, Ithink that's why people are
using this Christianity fortheir political gains, because
(31:56):
they can yell it and scream itand get more attention than
others. Yeah, so for the people,the real Christians, that are
actually trying to stand up, andI see so many of them that are
being faithful, trying to followJesus in like extraordinary ways
that are out, you know,protesting outside of i.
(32:18):
Facilities that are on out onthe street, are feeding people
that are hungry, that are, youknow, visiting the prisoners,
like the things that Jesuscalled us to do. How do we get
that more visible, to say thathere is the authentic community?
Like, how do we do it?
Unknown (32:40):
Oh, well, the the response to that prophecy, like,
for each of these prophecies, tome, like, there's I, I did a lot
of listening and talking withcolleagues and folk who were out
on the street doing thisministry. And the thing, the
place where we landed was we'vegot to become a Jesus movement,
which means, so if the question,if the prophecy is, where are
(33:02):
the real Christians? The answerfor us is, Okay, put your big
boy, big girl, big person pantson, and become a Jesus movement.
So often Joshua, when we are outthere protesting at detention
centers, so often when we're outthere feeding the hungry. We're
doing it with the cross hidden.
We're doing it with Jesus hiddenbecause we almost don't want to
(33:27):
be associated with Christianity.
For the record, this is one ofthe main reasons for the decline
of Christianity. For thenumbers, is because a lot of
more progressive, liberal, evenmoderate Christians stopped
being associated withChristianity because they're
like, I don't want to be likethe Religious Right. I don't
(33:48):
want to be anything to do withthat. And so we've disaffiliated
from our own faith brother. Sowhat does it take? What it takes
is standing up like I'm gonnagrab something, and I know that
most folk folk are listening,but just stay with me. This is
right. It's right here I'mgrabbing something from I've
(34:11):
been in the no kings marches,and I carry this sign. What does
it say?
Joshua Johnson (34:18):
Joshua Jesus was woke exactly.
Unknown (34:23):
You would be amazed at the response, at the energy that
swirls around when I walk on thestreet. You know, with 1000s and
1000s and 1000s of New Yorkers,so many people want to take a
picture with me. They want toask me, is that sign what I
think it is. And they're kind ofbold. You know, folks are like,
(34:44):
that's right now. We can getinto the weeds around wokeness
and whatever. But the point isthat that if compassion is
wrong, I don't, I don't want tobe right. That that all the
things that people are or thatthe right is poo pooing, right
(35:07):
now I'm like, that's what's antiChristian. So we need to be even
more bold in saying, this iswhere Jesus stood. This is what
Jesus said. This is how Jesuslived, and we're not going to
get it perfect, but we sure aregoing to try to follow Him, and
we're going to be a movementwith her. We need to be vocal
(35:29):
about that. We need to beunapologetic about that. We need
to reclaim Christianity, and Ifeel that so much more
passionately, having spoken tothese nuns and dones, they have
fueled my conviction aroundgoing public as a Christian. We
need to be we need to be outthere, and we need to be
unapologetic and attach Jesus'sname to what we do when we're
(35:53):
out there loving in this world.
Joshua Johnson (35:56):
That's so good.
We operate out of assumptionsall the time. And so when
someone says the word Christian,they're going to think a certain
way, because they assume this iswhat I was raised in, or this is
what I've seen, or I haven'theard really anything, but I
assume it's this. And so youactually have to be really
explicit. So that's really good.
That's really, really good. Whatare the other prophecies that
(36:19):
came out of your conversationswith nones and dones.
Unknown (36:22):
Another prophecy from them was, can you please stop
making idols of your buildings,your institutions, your rules,
your dogma? Just enough of theidols again. They see how we
have built up our own structuresget all tangled up in protecting
(36:45):
what's ours. And of course, I'mtalking about buildings, but
also, just about like ourpolicies. Oh, my goodness, the
way we we build up governancestructures, we build up
coordination processes, andpeople who are watching, they're
like, Wow, you're so much moreconcerned about your structures
(37:08):
and processes than you are aboutcommunity or God. And like,
they're not wrong. And I. Lackof capacity to change the fact
that we cling to those thingsonce we've formed them. You
know, we cling to thosebuildings. We cling to those
structures, and we'll doanything to maintain them that
(37:28):
need to maintain institution,maintain structures. We look
desperate. We look like we'reclinging to idols. And so they
called us on that. The responsein my mind and what I heard and
what we've I think the reminderwe need, the response to that
prophecy is, wait, wait, wait.
Our institutions can innovate.
(37:54):
We can change. Now. Movementsneed some kind of institution.
They need some way of gettingsolid and sustaining. That's
true. A movement just just kindof rolling along by itself, like
you don't hear a lot of a lotabout those movements. So the
Jesus movement also needs tohave some feet. It needs to it
(38:17):
needs to have roots. Butinstitutions can innovate, so
folks need to see us being ableto flex and to embrace change
and to embrace the people whorepresent change, instead of
trying to get everybody inlockstep in our institutions and
get everybody like we'll onlyordain you once you've told us
(38:39):
that you are going to be astrong maintainer of what we
have already built. We need tobe ordaining people who not want
to blow it all up, but whounderstand that there are a lot
of ways to grow to love, toserve, to build. We need to
radiate that capacity forinnovation, and we need to
(39:00):
embrace it so. So the prophecyis, stop idolizing, and the
response is, go innovate.
Joshua Johnson (39:09):
So if you're looking at people inside the
church, inside the institution,they want to make sure that
we're holding on to the tenantsof the faith of Christianity,
yeah, and we don't innovate toofar. I mean, there's a balance
that, I think, that you get sofar progressive, you get post
(39:29):
progressive into a place ofsometimes conservativism is more
progressive than progressivismat some point, like, that's
like, that's countercultural,that is, you know, that's
something so where's the balancethere of innovation and then
holding on to, like, the thereal tenants of what it looks
(39:51):
like to follow Jesus incommunity.
Unknown (39:54):
I mean, honestly, I think this is where it comes
back to that the importance ofbeing rooted as a Jesus
movement. You know that, that ifwe know those beatitude values,
if we know like at least in theEpiscopal Church, we have
something we call the baptismalcovenant. And it's five
commitments that everybody who'sbaptized, every every baptized
(40:17):
person makes these fivecommitments we make, these five
promises, you know. We say, I'mgoing to challenge myself here,
you know. But you know, andtheir commitments to turning
from the way of sin, kind ofself absorption and toward God,
it's a commitment to being inprayer and in community and in
(40:39):
worship on a regular basis. It'sa commitment to sharing the Word
of God in in how we live andwhat we say, proclaiming the
good news. It's a commitment torecognizing God in every person
we meet and honoring God inevery person we meet, and it's a
(41:00):
commitment to justice and peaceand creating a world where
everybody can flourish as achild of God, those are the five
promises we make asEpiscopalians. If I am living
into those five commitments, theform of my worship should not
(41:20):
necessarily matter as much ashonestly it does to a lot of our
churches. So many churches aremore involved in policing
liturgy, policing worship andthose five promises that I just
told you about. You know, we saythem every, you know, every
service of baptism, but we don'treally say it much more. We
(41:42):
should flip that. We should flipit so that it's about living the
way of Jesus and liturgy andstructure and building and
everything else serve themovement of God's people, not
the other way around. So that,to me, is the way the balance
should work.
Joshua Johnson (41:59):
Amen, amen, let's do that. That's great. So
a couple of you had two moreprophecies.
Unknown (42:09):
What? Indeed, I love these. I feel like I'm
representing their propheciesout the world. So I feel like
I'm a messenger on their behalf.
You know, these nones and donessaid to me. Go meet the God who
is waiting outside. Just go. Wealready talked to God outside.
We think you all talk to Godoutside, but you act like God is
only inside this building, andwe know better. So go, go meet
(42:30):
God outside. And again, I'mlike, they're not wrong, dude,
they're not wrong. Lots of uscan tell stories about our most
spiritually lively experiences,and the story has something to
do with engaging in nature. Thestory often is something that
happened outside of church. Andyet, when we when we are looking
(42:52):
for where is God, we're oftentrying to put God back inside
the box. So I think the responseto that prophecy is to go, go
and explore and create authenticChristian expressions outside
the walls of church. And let'sbe clear, lots of us were doing
this during pandemic. Am Iright? We were out there because
(43:16):
we had to be. We were in theparking lot, we were in the
churchyard. We were wherever wehad to be in order to breathe
safely and still worship. Andthen what happened when the
doors opened?
We went back inside. Most of ourchurches, lots of our churches,
went back inside. So I hear thisprophecy telling us go back
(43:41):
outside. Like that service youwere doing in the parking lot.
Why did you stop? Like what washappening out there? Something
really wonderful was happening.
Your neighbors saw you, but youwere also engaging in a
different way. You wereloosening up. You were making
room for the spirit. And itshowed so, you know, I've, I in
the book, I offer examples of,you know, how folk are doing
(44:05):
this at church camps. Likechurch camps should be not just
a place that the kids go. Weshould all be reconnecting with
God in nature, using thosecamps. Because a lot of those
camps are dying, go reclaimthem. You know, we should be.
Everybody complains about, oh,all the kids are at soccer
practice on Sundays instead ofcoming to church. Like, well,
(44:27):
why can't church go to thesoccer field? I want to
understand why, like you send alot of our churches at the end
of worship. We have thecommunion kit and we send
someone to the hospital with it.
We send someone to the home ofshut ins with it. Send somebody
out with that kit to the soccerfield. Go so find ways of
(44:50):
engaging the God who is alreadywaiting outside. It doesn't
diminish church. It expandschurch. It expands what it is
for us to be the body of Christ.
Joshua Johnson (45:02):
How do institutions give permission for
that? I think that's where somepeople, they don't think they
have permission. So how do wegive permission and say, Go.
Unknown (45:15):
I mean, again, the permission is already there. You
know, like most of our churches,you know, got permission to do
church outside, to take churchto all of these other places. We
got that during pandemic. Inmost cases, that hasn't been
revoked. We've just gotten outof the habit because it was
something we took up out ofnecessity. What I would like to
(45:37):
suggest is that we are, let's,let's go back to seeing this as
a necessity, to understandingthat God is so active out side.
God always has been. It's in theword of Scripture. It's in our
own experiences. Personally, Godis shaking the tree saying to
(46:00):
us, I'm here, I'm here. Cometalk to me out here. And we
think, Well, I can only do thatwhen I'm going for a run, but I
can't bring church with me outhere. Ish, can church can go and
meet you out there. Church cango and, you know, we can have
holy hikes. Well, we can go andtake a hike and then have have
(46:21):
Eucharist on the hilltop. Howextraordinary is that? You know,
the permissions are all there. Ithink What's hard is that for a
lot of us, who are churchprofessionals, we have been
trained in doing church inside,inside the building, inside the
structures, we need to get outof our own heads. We need to get
(46:45):
out of the place where we havemastery, to a place where
actually maybe we realize God ismore in charge,
which is a good thing. Allright. One last Yeah,
one last prophecy, please,please, please. They said, Would
you? Would you stop with thefake, stop with the obligatory
(47:09):
and form loving, embodiedcommunities that welcome our
whole authentic selves, people?
Want to be real. And when theysee us being real, they're in
they're drawing. When they seethe Holy Spirit at work, they
can sniff her out and they wantmore. So to me, the like, the
(47:32):
best way to encapsulate this aslike, what's the response to
that prophecy? What I say is,let's dance, dance with the
spirit, but also let's dancelike, let's get out of our own
way. Let's stop having to haveit perfect. Let's, you know,
let's stop scripting everything.
(47:56):
And instead, let's dance, let's,let's allow the Spirit to
surprise us, and let's allowreal community to form. I often
sing, in fact, almost always,like if you if I preach, I start
out with a song. And the reasonwhy I do that is because when I
sing first, and especially if Iinvite people to sing with me.
(48:19):
It's a song that's not in thebook. There's no music in front
of people. We're just singing.
There is a way that we form acommunity, even just with like a
couple of lines of a chant,singing together, it breaks
through a wall, and we are beingreal together. If I preach into
that space, it is a completelydifferent sermon. I feel
(48:43):
different. The community feelsdifferent. It feels like an
actual community. So when I saylet's dance, what I really mean
is, let's take down the walls,let's, let's, let's actually
glory and connecting with oneanother authentically, and not
having it all figured out. Let'smove together and let's move
(49:05):
with the Spirit. The churchesthat are growing right now are
often the church is rooted inthe Holy Spirit. They're the
Pentecostals, the Assemblies ofGod is the one of the only
denominations, if you will, theonly one that's growing right
now, growing robustly over thelast decade or more, Assemblies
of God. And it's, I believe it'sbecause this is a tradition.
(49:28):
This is a faith rooted in theHoly Spirit, rooted in movement.
The Pentecostal churches werefounded Aha, with black people
in LA a Souza Street Revival,love and so even when you're in
a white LED Pentecostal church,there's something about that
(49:49):
movement of the spirit, the waythat oppressed people's black
folk, folk who needed Jesus likethey need water, that authentic
need for God, that authenticreach for God, that authenticity
that that allowing God to touchand change you and then
testifying about it, that'swhere the life is.
Joshua Johnson (50:14):
I was interviewing somebody. They
talked about a 12th century monkthat said that you believe that
the first millennium ofChristianity was the father, the
second millennium was about theSon, and the third which we're
about to enter we're enteringnow is the spirit, yeah, and it
kind of like that actually namedsomething for me that I kind of
(50:37):
been like, been feeling Like, itfeels like the age of the
spirit, like, like, we need toget outside. We need to, like,
move. We need to dance. We needwe need to play. We need to
follow the leading of the Spiritin ways where we've been a
little bit more, you know,structured and dogmatic and
institutional. Now it feels likeit's scarier, right? Because
(51:00):
it's more wild than it ever hasbeen before. But it, I don't
know, for me, just like the feelof it feels like, oh, that may
be right. There may be somethingto do with the spirit wildness
outside dancing that actually isimportant
Unknown (51:18):
well, and doesn't that bring us full circle, in a way,
to that valley of the dry bones?
Know that? You know that there'sEzekiel prophesying, and God is
saying, Prophesy breath, inother words, Prophesy spirit,
Prophesy life back into thesebones. And what happens? You
know, they start to cometogether. Those bones start kind
of knitting back together.
(51:41):
There's ligaments, there'sflesh. Fleshiness comes back to
the bones. There's breath in thebones, and they rise up and and
they they are an army. They area movement for God. And I feel
like, if we open to that spirit,if we rise up in this way, if we
(52:03):
ask God to breathe that freshspirit into our dry bones,
acknowledge that these bones aredry, but then say, God, we know
it doesn't have to be that way.
We know that you will always,always give your spirit if we
ask and then just say. Right? Wehear the nones and dones. We
hear our own deepest longings,and we know we need you, God, so
please just come in, come in andfill us and raise us from this
(52:27):
valley into new life, onto thehigher places, so that we can
proclaim your love. That's thecalling. That's a moment. Amen.
Joshua Johnson (52:41):
Amen, beautiful church tomorrow. Let's do that.
Let's do that. Amen. Couplereally quick questions here at
the end for you, Stephanie, one,if you go back to your 21 year
old self, what advice
Unknown (52:54):
would you give? I would say to her, you're not wrong. A
lot of a lot of what you see inchurch, a lot of the reasons you
were hanging out on the edge andquestion Christianity, you are
not wrong, kiddo, and there'smore, don't give up. Don't give
up on on Jesus. Don't give up onthis crusty old, nasty
(53:21):
structure. There is a life thatis possible here. Don't give up
on it, please.
Joshua Johnson (53:27):
So good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend, Oh,
Unknown (53:37):
I love pop culture and so, yeah, a lot of what I'm
watching and reading, honestly,my husband and I just started
watching a new show last night.
It's called, I think you shouldleave Tim Robinson. I think is
the guy it is. It is an entryinto the utterly absurd. So I
mean, like you're asking, I'mtelling you, it is so completely
(54:00):
absurd. But honestly, when I'mwatching it, part of what I'm
seeing, I feel like, like, oh,so this is how a lot of younger
folk are like, are inhabiting,this is the world they're
inhabiting, where it's just,it's, it's, it's unhinged in a
way.
(54:23):
So it's, it's a good lesson forme, honestly, around Oh, wow,
this is how unhinged things canget. I'm also watching The
Witcher, which is, I mean, it's,it's what it sounds like, I
mean, so it's kind of that scifi fantasy sort of thing. And
because I'm curious too abouthow are people again, how are
people reading enchantment intothis world and telling those
(54:47):
stories, and where does churcheven begin to enter into that
conversation? So I'm reallycurious about that.
Joshua Johnson (54:55):
Stephanie, this book, church tomorrow is out.
Will be out anywhere books aresold. You go and get it where
Unknown (55:03):
books are sold. If you pre order it right now, you'll
you'll have it within withindays and and the official launch
is December the second, and I'llbe traveling the country,
touring with this book for thefirst half of 2026 so maybe we
can continue the conversation inperson. Yeah, so
Joshua Johnson (55:22):
let's continue the conversation. Where can
people connect with you? Maybefind out about where you're
going to be and where would youlike to point people to?
Unknown (55:30):
I point folks to my website. It's Stephanie
spellers.com/church, tomorrow.
Perfect. There you go. So just,I actually was just updating the
book tour events scheduleyesterday, so, but it's growing
all the time, and I'd love toyou know, you write a book
(55:50):
hoping to start a conversation.
Yeah, you don't write a bookjust to heal yourself. Think. So
I really look forward tocontinuing. And I'm so grateful
to have had this conversationwith you,
Joshua Johnson (56:03):
yes, and I with you. And this is a perfect book
for a conversation and to starta conversation. So I just want
everybody to go and get it, thento then sit with it. Sit with
these questions, sit with theseprophecies, and just wrestle
with it. What does it look likein your own community and with
the people around you. SoStephanie, this was fantastic.
(56:24):
Thank you so much. Thank you
Unknown (56:26):
so much. God bless. God bless. The revolution. Amen.
You. You.
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