December 12, 2025 • 51 mins
Journalist and author William J. Kole joins me to unpack the deep and often hidden ties between white evangelicalism, politics, fear, and America’s gun culture. Drawing from his new book In Guns We Trust, Bill shares how his own ministry collided with concealed weapons, why fear has shaped so much of the church’s response to gun violence, and how Christian nationalism and the idolizing of the Second Amendment have influenced our national crisis. We talk about the shift from historic Christian nonviolence to the embrace of firearms, the political power that keeps common-sense reforms stalled, and what other countries have done to reduce mass shootings. We also explore why “thoughts and prayers” aren’t enough and what a truly pro-life ethic demands of us today. If you long to break cycles of violence and return to the nonviolent way of Jesus, this is an essential and challenging conversation.
William J. Kole is a veteran journalist and a former foreign correspondent who has reported from North America, Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. As Vienna bureau chief for The Associated Press, he wrote extensively on the nexus of crime, the weapons trade, arms trafficking and terrorism across Eastern Europe.
His evangelical credentials are as extensive as his journalistic ones: He’s a former lay missionary for the Assemblies of God, a worship leader at evangelical churches in Europe and around his native New England, and served as board president of Dorcas USA, an international Christian relief and development agency.
Kole was AP’s New England bureau chief when a gunman armed with a military-style assault rifle massacred 20 first-graders and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. Earlier in his career, he was a lead writer on the car crash that killed Britain’s Princess Diana, and he also covered the arrest of former Yugoslav strongman Slobodan Milosevic, the death of Pope John Paul II, and Kosovo’s independence. His many awards include one from the Society of American Business Editors & Writers for an investigation into the exploitation of undocumented immigrants by the Walmart retail chain.
Kole, who speaks French, Dutch and German, studied journalism at Boston University and was a journalism fellow at Columbia University in New York and the National Press Foundation in Washington, D.C. Now an editor for Axios, he lives in Providence, R.I., and Paris.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
William J. Kole (00:31):
And we actually have what, what boils down to
gun idolatry in whiteevangelical circles, you know,
where people are, are trustingmore in their in their firearm
than they are in Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (00:54):
You Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, in this
episode, I sit down withjournalist and author William J
Cole to explore how whiteevangelicalism, politics and
(01:14):
fear became intertwined withAmerica's gun culture. His book
in guns we trust reveals a storymany of us have lived inside
without fully seeing how a faithcentered on the Prince of Peace
drifted toward firearms and feardriven narratives. Bill shares
how his own ministry firstcollided with concealed weapons,
the historical shifts that movedChristians away from non
(01:37):
violence and why fear has becomesuch a powerful force in our
churches and in our politics. Wetalk about Christian
nationalism, the idolizing ofthe Second Amendment and the
resistance to common sense gunreforms that most Christians
actually want we also look athow other countries have
successfully reduced massshootings, why thoughts and
(01:57):
prayers can't be the end of ourresponse, and what a truly pro
life ethic requires of us today.
So if you care about breakingcycles of violence and following
Jesus in a way that reflects hislove, courage and peace, this
conversation is worth your time,so join us. Here is my
conversation with Bill Colebill, welcome to shifting
(02:18):
culture. Honor to have you on.
Thanks for joining me. ThanksJosh for having me. I'm thrilled
we're going to be talking aboutguns today and the what you call
the unholy trinity of whiteevangelicals, politics and
firearms in your new book inguns we trust. This is a book
that made me angry, as we in thewhite evangelical space have
(02:40):
really been complicit in gunviolence because of our embrace
of gun culture, you have a storyof merging evangelical faith
into missionary work. You're ajournalist. Have been around the
world as a foreigncorrespondent. You've covered
gun violence as well as ajournalist, how has? How's these
(03:03):
things as a journalist, yourevangelical faith in your life,
how they merged together to comeinto this moment.
Unknown (03:14):
Oh, man, I'm not sure that they've merged so much as
they have collided within mysoul. And I really honestly, in
all transparency, I can nolonger, in good faith and in
good conscience identify as anevangelical. I am very much an
ex angelical. I am also verymuch a Jesus follower and
(03:34):
someone who finds faith, youknow, even more important it to
me than when I started thisinvestigation, in some ways. But
yeah, I've everything Ieverything that Christianity
promised me when I firstbelieved it. This feels like a
betrayal of all the beauty andjoy and purity of my faith, to
(03:54):
see Christians, you know,gravitate so strongly to the gun
culture and to embrace it, it'sjust bewildering to me.
Joshua Johnson (04:03):
One of the first stories you talk about is
leading worship and peoplecarrying weapons while you're
leading worship. Just share thatstory for a moment to take us
into how you actually rubbed upagainst gun culture in the
church.
Unknown (04:19):
Sure, so actually, the incident you mentioned there is
kind of what set me on thisquest. I was a worship leader at
a mega church in Massachusettswhen my bass player showed up
for rehearsal with a ninemillimeter Sig Sauer semi
automatic handgun, and it justliterally blew my socks off. I
(04:41):
mean, I could not wrap my mindaround, and then I kind of
confronted him and and said,Dude, why? You know we're here,
you know, singing and preparing,you know, to lead the
congregation on Sunday inworship of the Prince of Peace,
and you're carrying this semiautomatic weapon. It was the
first time it kind of like myproverbial scales fell off my
(05:04):
eyes. I realized that this wasactually commonplace. I didn't
know. And I've had, you know, 35years of experience with
evangelical Christianity, and Iquickly learned that many, many
people were carrying weapons,including even to church on
Sundays.
Joshua Johnson (05:21):
Let's get into some of the factors, like, how
did this start to happen? Whatwere the factors on the fusion
of gun culture and. And whiteevangelicalism,
Unknown (05:33):
it's really fascinating to me, because up until, you
know, the late 1960s or so, mostdenominations were officially
pacifist. And of course, weunderstand as Christians that
that Christianity is, I think,anyway, objectively non violent.
You know, it's really not up fordebate, right? I mean, we see
(05:53):
the person of Jesus Christcompelling us to turn the other
cheek. He laid down His life. Hecould have called it legion of
angels, you know, with swords.
That era's version of the AR 15,if you will, you know, and he
didn't do that, you know? Imean, it's so there's that,
right? But something shifted inthe late 1960s when
evangelicals, whiteevangelicals, to be more
(06:16):
specific, kind of realized thatthey had political power. And up
until then, you know, they werekind of doing their thing out of
sight of the general culture,and sort of found a voice. You
know, this all coincided withdesegregation in the United
States as well, which is not a,not a great and beautiful
beginning for a faith movementto find its political voice. But
(06:39):
that's what we had, you know? Imean, we had white Christians
who were really not that happyabout ending segregation in the
United States. But rather thancoalesce around around a
platform that problematic. Theysort of latched on to some other
issues, abortion and gun rights.
And all of this was started tobe reframed as, you know, issues
(07:02):
of religious freedom, and thenagain, superimposed over all of
that was challenges to prayer inthe public schools, which kind
of roused many whiteevangelicals and the rise of
powerful, vocal televangelistslike Jerry Falwell and the Moral
Majority movement and even BillyGraham, who, you know, is a
(07:23):
beloved figure, right to many ofus, kind of led the charge into,
you know, getting evangelicalsto Vote and to, you know, become
kingmakers in elections,
Joshua Johnson (07:34):
if you're looking at their political
power, that's, that's one ofthem. There any other factors,
as you've looked at
Unknown (07:42):
it, absolutely and I think the thread that runs
through all of this is what Icall the fear factor. And I
devote much of the book to sortof unpacking that, this idea
that they are out to get usright. And again, I've been a
evangelical Christian, Christianfor a long time. I never quite
worked out who they were. But,you know, to the to the
(08:04):
evangelical mindset, there isthis menace in in society where,
you know, there's this idea thatthat a hostile culture is is out
to get them out to to take theirBibles away, and, more recently,
out to grab their guns. And thisis a very potent, although false
(08:24):
narrative that you know, drivesgun sales. Frankly, I mean, the
gun industry in the UnitedStates is a $9 billion a year,
largely unregulated industryalso, and we can maybe talk
about this a little bit later,but also an industry in which
white evangelical Christiansplay an outsized role running a
lot of these companies. There'sa lot of ugly stuff going
(08:47):
through here, a ratherbewildering fusion of faith and
firearms that that just doesn'tseem consistent with the
Christian gospel.
Joshua Johnson (08:57):
It's not just as an anecdote from my own life is
I lived in the Middle East forfor five years, and so I'm in
the middle of of a place wherethere's there's war on all
sides. I'm living in Jordan. Sothere's war in Syria, you know,
right now there's war ISRAELPALESTINE, there's, you know, we
have war surrounding us.
Refugees are coming in. I'mdoing some refugee work, but I
(09:19):
feel safer there than I do inthe United States where I live,
and it's just and as soon as Imoved back into the US, I felt a
spirit of fear, like it was adifferent spirit that was over
the country. It was, this iswhat we swim in. It feels like
(09:40):
just the water that we swim in,or the air that we breathe, is
fear. Where do you think fear,specifically in the United
States, comes in, as you say inyour book, hey, these mass
shootings has happened aroundthe world. People have said,
Let's stand up, stop thesethings. They've had actually
(10:03):
enacted some some good gunpolicies that have stopped a lot
of these mass shootings. Why doyou think this culture of fear
really propagates in the UnitedStates?
Unknown (10:17):
It's difficult to figure out honestly, because
again, when you start to diginto this fear, you come up with
chimeras and, you know, andvapors. You don't really find
substantive reasons to beafraid. Look, there. Are around
60 million white evangelicals inthe United States. They are a
potent force. They are alsoenjoying incredible privilege,
(10:39):
politically, culturally, and tosome extent economically as
well, right? So of all thepeople, of all of the citizens
of the United States, they are,arguably, they should be the
ones who are least afraid,right? And instead, they are
very afraid. And again, this issort of mushroomed with the
(11:02):
ascendance of Christiannationalism in this country,
which just a few years ago was afringe ideology, and now it's
mainstream, right? And we seemembers of the President's
Cabinet who are unapologeticChristian nationalists. And part
of you know there's a reason,again, why white evangelicals
are so drawn to qanonconspiracies and things like
(11:24):
this, right? The idea thatthere's a secret cabal of
leftist Marxist leaders who areconspiring against the rest of
the US population, and it's aand they're all pedophiles. I
mean, this stuff is, is, iscrazy town. It really is, and it
really makes me angry, you know,but, but, you know, it persists
nonetheless, and it's hard tofigure out why. I just think
(11:46):
there has been, historically,this kind of circling of the
wagons, if you will, among whiteevangelicals, who are, you know,
determined to protect their wayof life. And lastly, there is,
has always been sort of thispatriarchal streak throughout
white evangelicalism, where, youknow, men particularly, are to
(12:08):
protect their wives and childrenat all costs, and the gun has
just really become front andcenter in that
Joshua Johnson (12:15):
Christians in the United States primarily
moved from pacifists intoembracing of firearms. That
shift. When I look at Jesus,that's why I see non violence.
That's what we've we've saidbefore. How does, how does
something like that really takeplace? Moving from like pacifism
(12:37):
into embracing of firearms,
Unknown (12:39):
there were incredible shifts, really, arguably,
seismic shifts in faithcommunities around these issues
in the 60s and the 70s, when wegot involved in Vietnam, up till
then, you know, there had beensome pretty open debate within
many evangelical circles aboutwhether even the concept of just
(13:00):
war was sound. The idea, inother words, that, yeah, there
may be times, although we arepredominantly embracing non
violence and passivism, theremay be times when force is
justified, okay? And the classicexample was Hitler's Germany
when, you know, we, we had to,you know, stop the Holocaust and
stop, stop this guy. Beforethen, there were entire
(13:23):
denominations that wouldn'tbudge on on the idea of a just
war doctrine, and so committedwere they to the tenets of non
violence within the bedrock ofChristianity, you know, and that
really started to fragment as,again, you know the old saying,
you know, absolute powercorrupts absolutely. As as
(13:43):
Christians found their voice inthe public square and realized
that, you know, they could electpresidents and Reagan was, you
know, their first prize. Youknow, they and Trump. Now, of
course, you know, whiteevangelicals are the base of
Maga and Trump world. You know,I think, I think that what I
(14:03):
see, anyway, from talking withdozens of people across
evangelical Christianity aroundthe gun question, is this idea
that you know, no, this is ourtime you know, and our time we
need to seize it with bothhands. And if that means we need
to be armed, then we will bearmed and and this is really,
really troubling to me, if wesense or feel that we really,
(14:27):
actually need to use our weaponsagainst a government that we
perceive as hostile to us in ourway of life, we are more than
ready to use those weapons, youknow. So I think that this is
really kind of developing into aperfect storm, and anyone who
cares about about democracy andand about Christianity ought to
(15:34):
be troubled. I certainly am so.
Joshua Johnson (15:37):
Is there any nuance in the second amendment
that would say, hey, maybe weshould do something different
with this gun culture inAmerica. It I mean, it seems
like the Second Amendment hasbecome like scripture for most
conservative evangelicals. Isthere any nuance? There? Is
there something to like commonsense gun reform. Is that
(16:01):
possible with something like theSecond Amendment? Yeah.
Unknown (16:04):
I mean, there's look John Paul Stevens, before he,
you know, stepped down from theSupreme Court, and a year before
his death, actually said that hefelt that the Second Amendment
was one of the greatest fraudsperpetrated upon. The American
citizenry, and that if, if itcould be done over, it should
never have, you know, been partof the constitution. So, you
(16:24):
know, there's, that's a very,very provocative, uh, statement,
right? You know, we scholarshave debated for for decades,
uh, centuries, really, about thethe well regulated militia. We
look clearly, our forefatherswanted the citizenry to be
armed, but we, let's put this inperspective, can't we? That, you
(16:47):
know? I mean, they, you know, wewere facing, you know, we were
fighting for our independencefrom Britain. We were trying to
make our way in a new country.
And you know, we were also, youknow, using muskets and powder
and you know, which took acouple of minutes to reload
after each shot, the SecondAmendment did, never, it never,
never envisioned an AR 15military style assault rifle,
(17:11):
you know. And you will never winthat argument with me, that that
you know, that those kinds ofweapons belong in civilian
hands. I just, I'm not buyingI'm just not buying it. And,
and, you know, and you know,Josh the AR 15 is actually the
weapon of choice in in Americatoday, and and among evangelical
Christians who are buying themsome families more than one. And
(17:32):
it's, it's like, somebody toldme, it's like the Ford f1 50
pickup of firearms, you know,it's just sort of like the gun
you know that you got, you gotto have. Okay, so look, part of
my writing this book was to pullback the curtain on what I see
as evangelical complicity andhypocrisy in our gun crisis. But
the other part of writing thebook was to sort of like a
(17:57):
prophetic lament, almost to thechurch, to say, Look, can we
please rethink this? Is thisreally who we want to be? Is
this who Jesus wants us to be?
Fear is the antithesis of faith,right? I mean, if you have, if
you're a person of faith, youshould not be a fearful person,
you know? I mean, these twothings are like oil and water,
(18:18):
and so I feel like we've reallybetrayed some of our the basic
aspects of what it means to be afollower of Jesus Christ when we
cling to guns and gun culture.
Joshua Johnson (18:28):
I think that quote that you you just said, is
that AR fifteens are more commonthan Ford f1 50s that came from
some evangelicals that own a gunmanufacturing plant, I think, is
that? Yes, correct? Yes, thatwas right. In that and that
section that I was right, I wasindeed. So let's go into that.
As evangelicals are, there's a,I don't know, there's a myriad
(18:53):
of gun manufacturers that areowned by evangelicals that have
actually then put bible verseson their automatic weapons,
which is kind of strange, as youwere starting to do this, this
work and interviewing them, whatwere some of the justifications
that you have found for theEvangelicals actually Owning gun
(19:17):
manufacturers and giving outselling a bunch of guns to the
public.
Unknown (19:22):
So again, and you alluded to this a moment ago,
Josh that for many evangelicals,the Second Amendment is like
scripture. It's they see it asbreathed by God. So so anything
around guns and gun freedoms isactually seen as righteous and
very much within God's will forus as a people and for us as
(19:44):
individuals. So all that theyframe it that way. And it's
important to keep that in mind.
Most of the evangelical guncompanies, I reached out to many
of them, and almost all of themshut me down. They didn't want
to talk. I was able to go downto Indiana and speak with with
one company called FOSS tech,and it's owned by some brothers
and cousins who are all whiteevangelicals. I'll be honest. I
(20:06):
flew down there, got in myrental car, and before I even
hopped out to, you know, Buzzthe buzzer at the factory, I
kind of had it, had them figuredout in my mind, you know, I
wanted them to be memes. Iwanted them to be caricatures,
good old boys, you know. Andthey weren't. They were
extremely thoughtful men, and wehad an incredible conversation
(20:29):
where they really unpacked, youknow, their justification for
putting these weapons incivilian hands, and a key value
for them is family. And so, youknow, again, they want to give
people the tools they need todefend their families in a in a
society that, you know, yeah,does have crime. That's a whole
(20:49):
other rabbit hole we can godown, because crime is down,
right? Crime is way down inAmerican cities and and the
President is, is just false.
Has, again, a false narrativethat he's using to justify
sending National Guard troopsinto cities that you know, where
murder and other violent crimeis way down, but you know, they
(21:11):
wanted to produce these weaponsfor people to have, you know, to
protect, protect their lives.
Lives and property. Should theybe menaced in any way again?
That's, that's a noble thing. Imean, I, you know, I don't think
anyone would want, you know,their their family, to be
victimized without having, youknow, without doing something
about it. But there's thisoverwhelming feeling as well
that we might be called upon touse our arms, to take up arms
(21:35):
against the government. Youknow, this was, this is part of
the of the Second Amendment,this idea that, you know,
there's a, kind of a hidden armywithin the United States to make
sure that, you know, we don'thave tyranny. All right, so
let's unpack that for a second,right? I mean, so, so let's
make, let's assume thateverybody in the country has an
AR 15, okay, the government hasnukes, attack helicopters,
(21:58):
submarines, tanks, you know,drones. I mean, the list goes on
and on. Do you really think thatwith even with your AR 15
military style assault rifle,that you're going to defend
yourself against a governmentwith all those tools at its
disposal? It breaks the logicjust escapes me here, you know,
and what we're left with is a isan evangelical embrace of guns
(22:21):
as the answer to our gun crisis.
In other words, we have a guncrisis. We need more guns. How
are we ever going to get out ofthis vicious cycle if we, if we
don't break that way ofthinking,
Joshua Johnson (22:36):
as we see gun violence, and we see mass
shootings a lot. I don't evenknow how many mass shootings
we've already had this year inAmerica, but it's in the
hundreds. It's a lot of massshootings. In the most horrific
mass shootings, what I see is alot of people have the argument,
(22:56):
well, guns don't kill people.
People kill people. So don'tworry about the gun issue. It's
not the guns. It's the people weneed to work on mental health or
something else. It's not theguns that's a big thing. And
then another thing from a lot ofthe evangelical church is a
thoughts and prayers are goingout. There's no really action to
the prayer is just thoughts andprayers to the community. What
(23:20):
would you say to both of thosethings? Thoughts and prayers to
the community, and guns don'tkill people. People. Kill
people, right?
Unknown (23:30):
So to the to the first point that guns don't kill
people, okay, sure, but youknow, we are awash in weapons.
We've got more guns thancitizens in the United States,
we don't. We have so many guns.
We don't even know how many gunswe have. It's hard. Somewhere
north of 400 million guns inthis country. There's, there's a
in Switzerland, in Switzerland,there's a, there's a group
(23:51):
called the small arms survey,which does excellent and very
accurate work looking at gunculture globally, the most
recent survey shows that we have120 firearms for every 100
citizens, which puts us way, wayat the top of the international
rankings. The next country isthe Falkland Islands, which has
(24:13):
62 firearms for every 100citizens. So we're like, double,
you know, the next on the list,you know, look like you. I've
worked and livedinternationally. I actually
spent the better part of 20years as a foreign correspondent
for The Associated Press inEurope. I also worked in Africa
and the Middle East onassignment. You just don't find
(24:33):
this kind of gun violenceanywhere else in the world, not
even in places like Gaza. Imean, you know, really, I mean,
people are not, you know,killing each other. Like,
obviously, there's war, youknow, and there's, you know,
there, but, but, yeah, but youknow, it just doesn't happen.
And you know, mental health isalways raised as an issue. I'm
(24:56):
not going to deny that. Ofcourse, some some shooters may
be mentally ill. That that'sthat's quite possible. But
again, mental illness occurs inevery country of the world. You
know, we don't have a, you know,we don't corner the market on on
psychiatric, you know, disordersand and yet again, they don't
(25:17):
have these kinds of ofshootings. And this frequency
where we actually have more massshootings in the United States
than we have days of the year.
In fact, it just before covid,we had twice as many mass
shootings as days of the year.
You know, it was, it was up inthe 600 high six hundreds. You
know, a mass shooting for ourpurposes, by the way, for our
(25:38):
listeners, is generally definedas a shooting in which at least
four people are injured orkilled, not counting the
shooter. So that's sort of thebenchmark, right? So look, we
guns are within easy reach inthis country, and that's what's
driving our our uniquelyAmerican gun scourge. And then
(26:00):
to your second question aboutthoughts and prayers. Look, I'm
a, you know, I'm a Jesusfollower, I I'm a thinking
person, and I pray, right? So Isend thoughts and prayers all
the time, right? It's part ofwhat we call being you. Know,
it's empathy, it's, it'scompassion. There's nothing
wrong with thoughts and prayers.
(26:22):
Okay, where it becomesproblematic is we're when we
stop and when, when we allow ourthoughts and prayers to absolve
us of any concrete action. Andthat's exactly what we've done
in this country. You know, I wasthe AP bureau chief for New
England when, when a gunmanentered Sandy Hook Elementary
School in Newtown, Connecticutand and turned it into a killing
(26:43):
field. And we all thought thatthat would be like this
transcendent moment wheneverything would change, when we
would finally reclaim ourcollective sanity and do
something concrete. And therewas for, you know, a few days,
maybe a week, there was thissort of sense of hope and, and
(27:04):
it just dissolved, right? Wejust never could get off of of,
get anywhere practical on thisissue, and, and so, yeah,
thoughts and prayers in thiscontext are pretty useless
honestly, you know. And when youtalk to people who have had
their families touched by gunviolence, they get pretty
cynical about thoughts andprayers, because they, you know,
(27:26):
they don't want to hear it allright. They want to see real
action. So, oh, one and oneother thought then, well, just
to, just to complete that, thecircle on that. So evangelicals,
again, I've been asked, Why areyou picking on evangelicals, you
know, first, first of all,they're my, my former tribe. I
love them, you know. And I feel,I feel entitled and qualified to
(27:49):
sort of, you know, address whatI see as their shortcomings.
Because I was in that movementbig time, for a long time. The
biggest problem here in thecomplicity is that being such a
persuasive and powerfulpolitical group, they actually
could stop gun violence tomorrowby siding with gun violence, you
(28:11):
know, prevention activists andyou know by actually embracing
their pro life stance to extendthat to to gun violence, and
instead, they elect like mindedpeople to Governor's offices and
state legislatures and Congressand and so that's where that
that's actually the biggestproblem, right is that they're
(28:33):
they're perpetuating our crisisby Not allowing our elected
representatives to carry out thecommon sense reforms that most
of us say we want.
Joshua Johnson (28:42):
I do believe that a pro life stand should be
pro all of life, and not justpro life in the womb, but pro
all of life. So that needs tohappen, but we have seen in
other countries that massshootings have happened then
they actually do pass somecommon sense gun reform, and
it's helpful. As you've wentaround the world and you've
(29:04):
researched, what did you findother countries implement and do
to actually negate some of this,these mass shootings, from
happening, I'm
Unknown (29:13):
so I'm so glad you you brought that up because, you
know, we we tend to have thissense of fatalism about the gun
violence crisis in the UnitedStates. We feel like we can't do
anything about it. We're just,you know, we can actually and
other countries have so,notably, Australia, in 1996 had
a horrible bloodbath in PortArthur, where a gunman over over
(29:38):
a period of, like, a couple ofdays, just, you know, walked
around, you know,indiscriminately, shooting and
killing people, and it would soscandalize the country that very
quickly they were able to enactlaws restricting access to, you
know, most firearms, so by thegeneral public, and with, With
very few exceptions have had anykind of a repeat like that. You
(30:01):
know, since then, and NewZealand, just a few years ago,
had had these shootings at somemosques that were horrible with
a great loss of life and tookdecisive action, kind of
borrowing from the Australianplaybook, you know, restricting
access to automatic weapons andsemi automatic weapons, and
greatly tightening up, you know,on on, on, all of that. And
(30:23):
they've had success with, youknow, removing gun violence from
from their their, you know,lists of societal ills. For the
book, I went to the UK, toScotland, where the little town
of Dunblane had its own versionof Sandy Hook in also 1996 the
same year as Australia had itstroubles, they lost 16 primary
(30:46):
school students and theirteacher who died trying to
protect them. And again, theywere so scandalized and so
struck by this senseless actthat within days, a grassroots
movement built, and it became sopersuasive and so energetic that
even, you know, members ofparliament jumped on and and
(31:10):
they again, they were able toactually enact common sense
legislation restrict access tothese kinds of weapons. And, you
know. They have not had a massshooting in the United Kingdom
since then. That was almost nextyear. That will be 30 years,
right, since that horrible thinghappened. So you can't tell me
that it can't be done. You know,yes, we have a second amendment
(31:32):
in, you know, to ourConstitution, but you know,
who's to say we can't, you know,work with that and pass laws
that will at least get the, youknow, the military style weapons
off the streets. We have surveysthat show consistently that a
massive plurality of Americanswant a ban on military style
(31:53):
assault rifles. We're talkingabout, you know, north of 80% of
Americans want this. Isn't thata, you know, in a democracy,
isn't that an imperative? Isn'tthat, you know, aren't we
supposed to, you know, do whatthe people want. So I think, you
know, we can do this. We have ahuge, lucrative gun industry and
a powerful gun lobby, and weneed to overcome those things
(32:15):
somehow.
Joshua Johnson (32:16):
Is there anything moving the needle in
America right now. Have youfound, found people? And I know
there's some places in your bookthat there are people trying to
do something. One, are You, youactually go and visit some, some
gun buyback places? Do you thinkit's making a difference? Is
there anything making adifference right now? Is it
helping?
Unknown (32:37):
I think it is, I think, unfortunately, it's, it's small
scale, you know, we are puttingsomewhere around 37,000 weapons
a day into the marketplace, youknow. I mean, it's, and, you
know, the numbers of guns we'retaking off the streets are, you
know, a tiny fraction of that.
So it feels a little futile. ButI think anything that you know
(32:59):
that gets any guns off thestreets is a great thing. Let's
keep in mind too. Let me justinterject here, because we're
we've been talking mostly aboutmass shootings and mass casualty
events, and we have a lot ofthose. But the greatest by far,
the greatest number of gundeaths are suicides, and so
again, I appeal to myevangelical brothers and
(33:20):
sisters, if you care about life,if you really care about about
life, you'll care about this.
You know that this is somethingthat NRA doesn't want you to
know, but your home becomes lesssafe, not more safe, the moment
you bring a gun inside. And I'llcircle back to the to the good
stuff that's happening in asecond, but I just wanted to
(33:41):
interject that here, because Ithink it's important, right?
We're running around 47,000 gundeaths a year, and about 27,000
of those are suicides. So ifthere's a gun in your home and
you're going through a bit of acrisis, the chances of you
succeeding in an attempt arevery, very good, unfortunately,
(34:02):
with a firearm, right? Sothere's that. There's also, and
this is really disturbing andastonishing to me, but the
accidental deaths of children inthe United States, guns account
for the greatest number ofaccidental deaths, more than car
crashes, actually. So you know,you again, you have a gun in the
home, and people you know inorder to feel like they have it
(34:26):
within easy reach defy commonsense and in many cases, safe
storage laws and keep that gunloaded on their nightstand or in
the, in the, in the littledrawer of their nightstand right
next to their Bible, right? Youknow, and that so that gun is
loaded and ready, you know, fora home invasion or something
(34:47):
like that. That's not how you'resupposed to store your weapon,
right? It's supposed to belocked up separately from the
ammunition that's supposed to belocked up, right? And a kid, you
know, a child can can, you know,find your weapon and play with
it with it with tragicconsequences. And it happens all
the time. It's heartbreaking,right? So there's that. And then
finally, you know, domesticviolence, I mean, when there's a
(35:07):
gun in the home and there's adust up between husband and
wife, or, you know, the chancesof that becoming a homicide are
exponentially greater if thereis a gun, and we see this all
the time as well. So these areall reasons why, you know,
beyond mass shootings, that weneed to be invested in trying
to, you know, turn the tidehere. But yes, there are gun
(35:29):
amnesty programs buybacks.
There's some beautiful workbeing done. Shane Claiborne in
Philadelphia, who founded RedLetter Christians, and, you
know, has also written a bookabout about gun violence and
efforts to end the scourge.
Helped found raw tools, whichgoes around collecting weapons
(35:49):
that are turned in, sometimes inin cooperation with police
forces who offer, you know,folks to turn turn in their
weapons. No questions asked, thepeople who turn in their weapons
get cash or a gift card or agrocery card, whatever, you
know, and it's on a slidingscale, it can be a few $100 so
for, for, you know, an AR 15 andmaybe 200 for a rifle, you know
(36:12):
150 or whatever. For, you know,a handgun, and it's real, it's
real cash. Right, you know? Andand then they take these they do
something beautiful. They theyhave these portable forges that
they heat up to like 2000degrees Fahrenheit, and they
beat these guns into gardentools, right? Almost literally
beating swords into plowshares,as we see in Isaiah, which I
(36:33):
think is, it gives me chillsevery time I consider that. So
there's that. Then there's a fewother things, if I may
highlight. There are progressiveChristians doing a lot of work
like this. My favorite exampleis a group of rogue nuns who are
buying stock in gunmanufacturing companies, which
(36:55):
then gives them the sort of aseat at the table. They, if they
buy enough shares, they canintroduce shareholder
resolutions aimed at, you know,compelling the gun manufacturer
to spend more time and treasureon, you know, safety measures
for its firearms, or, you know,or and actually persuading them
(38:16):
and pressuring them from theinside out to stop marketing
weapons to young people, right?
Because there's, there's a nexusof, you know, gun, gun violence
is glorified in video games, andthen sometimes the gun
manufacturers, you know,advertise around that. And it's
sort of, you know, it's, it's aproblem. So I think there's,
there's some beautiful workbeing done. What I'll tell you,
Joshua is that i i seeevangelicals as mostly invisible
(38:40):
in that work it is. It's beingdone by by progressive
Christians who like and I'm aprogressive Christian now,
right? I was an evangelical.
Evangelicals have since told methat I'm no longer a Christian,
because I'm not an evangelicalanymore, you know, because they
own right, because evangelicalsown, own own the kingdom, and
(39:00):
they decide, you know, who, whogets to to go to Paradise and
who doesn't? And apparently, Idon't get to go anymore, which
is, which is anotherconversation for another time.
But it's, it's, it's, it'spretty damned infuriating from
where I sit, you know, assomebody who, deeply loves, you
know, but anyway, how
Joshua Johnson (39:21):
do we actually follow Jesus in a way that he
talks about in Scripture, theways and the teachings of Jesus?
Unknown (39:32):
I think there is, I think it's a challenge. I
forgive me for being so brashhere, but I see incredible
arrogance among my evangelicalbrothers and sisters, some
spiritual arrogance which ishard to penetrate. At the same
time, evangelicals are not amonolith, any more than any
other group, and I was heartenedby conversations I had in
(39:55):
researching and reporting thebook with evangelicals who some
are questioning this, you know,fealty to firearms. And I think
that some are persuadable, youknow, not, not. And first of
all, not every evangelical ownsa weapon. And even some who do
are, you know, persuadable interms of, gee, do I really need
this thing, you know? And Ithink this is where I you know,
(40:18):
in terms of solutions, in termsof hope, work. How can we break
this cycle? You know, I kind oflay some of these things out in
the book. I don't think that wecan solve our gun crisis without
intentional conversation withevangelicals. Because, again, of
you know, such a central rolethat they play here. And I think
(40:41):
it's tempting to demonizeevangelicals on this issue and
to isolate them and even toalmost ignore them or brush them
off, but that's a mistake,because, you know, we have to,
we have to dialog with people. Ithink, I think one, there are
two areas we already kind oftouched on on one earlier in
this conversation, and that ismaybe appealing to evangelicals
(41:04):
sense of being pro life, ofbeing, of being, you know, of
upholding the sanctity of lifeand and getting them to rethink
gun culture, because it, youknow, it robs people of life,
you know. And that's apersuasive argument that can get
some traction. And the other oneis, you know, evangelicals are,
tend to be scriptural purists.
And, you know, take take theirBibles very seriously. And, you
(41:28):
know, I think there's aninteresting conversation that
can be had with folks aroundjuxtaposing the Second Amendment
and the second commandment, youknow, the second commandment is
that we don't have idols, youknow. And we actually have what,
what boils down to gun idolatryin white evangelical circles,
you know, where people are, aretrusting more in their in their
(41:52):
firearm than they are in Jesusand and that's so the you know,
that's problematic. But I think,you know, again, that could, I
don't think that evangelicalshave always framed it or looked
at it that way, and that, youknow, I found in some
conversations that that getstheir attention, you know, like,
oh, well, I don't want to, Idon't want to do that, but it's,
it's hard. It's hard becauseeveryone is just so dug in here,
(42:14):
you know. And I guess that'sprobably. The sort of our
cultural moment, our politicalmoment, not just on guns, but on
everything.
Joshua Johnson (42:23):
I mean, it feels like everybody's dug in their
position, and they are like, I'mjust not going to be swayed the
other way. We're not going totalk anymore. And when we talk,
it's just It delves into just ashouting match and arguing and,
you know, so we're not actuallylistening to each other anymore.
So we actually need to hear eachother have a conversation like a
(42:44):
real conversation, and not justtalk at each other. I hope that
happens. What is your hope forthis book in guns we trust? What
do you want? As if you talk toyour readers, you talk to the
United States in particular.
What do you hope for this?
Unknown (43:03):
Well, again, first, I really felt like I needed to
pull back the curtain on what'sreally going on here, because
the evangelical complicity inour gun crisis is profound, and
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize it. You know, I've
never, I've never suggested fora moment that evangelicals are
shooting up the country. That'snot what this is about, you
(43:23):
know. And I think again, thegreat majority of gun owners,
evangelical or otherwise, areresponsible people. But it feels
to me like, if you are a personof faith, that you're going to,
you know, want to be invested inmaking, you know, society a
better place. Christians were atthe forefront of some, you know,
(43:44):
some of our greatest socialills. I'm thinking particularly
of child labor, whereChristians, you know, largely
took the lead on that issue.
And, you know, and, and that wasa horrible thing for decades,
for centuries. And so I think,you know, I was talking with
somebody the other day, and Imaybe this was a little snarky
of me, but I I suggested that,you know, if you're going to be
(44:05):
a person of faith, maybe youought to take the spiritual
equivalent of the HippocraticOath above all, do no harm,
right? So I think this is my sofor the general public, I want
to pull back the curtain showthem evangelicals are really all
up in this mess, you know, andthey're blocking progress for
the rest of us, and so arguably,they're making the country less
(44:27):
safe for the rest of us bypropagating this gun culture,
just by virtue of their numbersand their and their the way they
look at the second amendment andand the way they look At guns,
but also to just sort of holdout an olive branch to my former
faith tribe and and say, can wejust talk about this? Because
whatever we're doing now, it'sjust not working, and maybe
(44:49):
together, we can find a wayforward that that actually
values life and honors God.
Joshua Johnson (44:57):
I hope so. I really do couple quick questions
I have for you here at the endBill one, if you go back to your
21 year old self, what advicewould you give?
Unknown (45:06):
Well, honestly, I, you know, I was, I came to faith
when I was hitchhiking home fromcollege and an evangelical
picked me up, a progressiveChristian, a new friend and ally
on this gun issue, actually toldme the other day. She said,
Gosh, I wish I was the one whohad picked you up when you were
hitchhiking, so that you couldhave actually entered, entered
(45:28):
a, you know, a branch ofChristianity that actually saw
working for the common good andtrying to be real salt and light
in the world as good things and,you know, yeah, so I guess I
would, in some ways, I wish thatI didn't spend as much time and
treasure in evangelicalChristianity, because I, you
know, as I said at the top, Ikind of feel betrayed right now.
(45:52):
I'm deconstructing my faith andreconstructing it. I'm committed
to reconstructing it. I reallyam. But I this has kind of
rocked my world, personally andspiritually. So I guess, I guess
I would, I would have to tell my21 year old self, hang in there,
buddy. You know, I mean it, it'sbeen a bumpy ride. But you know,
(46:13):
as long as we still have breathand purpose, we ain't done yet.
Joshua Johnson (46:17):
That's right, anything you've been reading or
watching lately you couldrecommend,
Unknown (46:22):
well, I mean, if anybody wants to go deeper on
this issue, I highly recommendKristen Kobe Dumais, best
selling book Jesus and JohnWayne, which really, really
traces in excruciating andactually maddening detail. How
this, you know, how Jesus cameto be viewed as kind of a Rambo
(46:44):
slash Marlboro Man, you know,figure, I highly, I highly
recommend her, her book, youknow, it's, yeah, that really,
really, sort of, you know, laysbare how we got away from the
person of Jesus that you know, Ithink a lot of us thought we
knew and hardly recognizeanymore, in in white Christian
(47:05):
nationalist circles
Joshua Johnson (47:07):
and guns we trust, is out anywhere books are
sold. Is there anywhere inparticular that you'd like to
point people to to get the bookor to connect with you? Yeah.
Unknown (47:16):
I mean, look that you can get. Anywhere. I always
point people to their localindependent bookstores, because
I think these are treasures inour society. And of course, you
can buy it on Amazon, Barnes andNoble Target, Walmart, all the
usual suspects. I'm always alittle reluctant to make Jeff
(47:37):
Bezos a richer man, so I again,I point folks to their
independent bookstores, andthere are a lot of public
libraries who are putting thebook on their shelves, which is
very encouraging. I got a chanceto speak at the American Library
Association Annual Conference inPhiladelphia this past summer,
and there was great enthusiasmfor this title. So I hope you
(47:59):
read it, and if you do, pleasedrop a review in Goodreads or on
Amazon, because that sort ofjuices the algorithm to put it
in front of more people, andmore than anything, more than
wanting to sell books, I reallywant people to own a piece of
this fight and And and invest injust trying to turn the corner
(48:21):
on this maddening, endlesscycle.
Joshua Johnson (48:23):
Well, Bill, thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for this book in gunswe trust. Thank you for making
me angry to move towardssomething that, hey, I need to
actually continue to dosomething to call out this,
these cycles of violence that wehave been in, and and say that I
I truly believe that the way oflove and Jesus and peace is
(48:45):
really the only way to breakcycles of violence. This is what
I've come to like. This is it?
It's the actually embodying theways of Jesus, which is
nonviolent, the way of love. Andif we could do that, we may
actually move the needle andactually see less gun deaths,
less deaths in the UnitedStates, that we can get rid of
(49:05):
all of these, a lot of theseguns that we have, and we could
actually implement some commonsense gun reform in this
country, so that we can actuallysee life in this country, and I
don't have to be moved towardsfear, to pray for my son and
school to be protected everytime he goes into school, but I
could actually just pray in loveand care for the school instead
(49:29):
of out of fear. So thank you,Bill. It was a great
conversation.
Unknown (49:34):
Great conversation. You know, we don't have to keep
living like this, and we don'thave to keep dying like this. So
thank you for you know, givingme a chance to talk about these
issues and God, bless you. You.
And we actually have what, what boils down to
gun idolatry in whiteevangelical circles, you know,
where people are, are trustingmore in their in their firearm
than they are in Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (00:54):
You Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, in this
episode, I sit down withjournalist and author William J
Cole to explore how whiteevangelicalism, politics and
(01:14):
fear became intertwined withAmerica's gun culture. His book
in guns we trust reveals a storymany of us have lived inside
without fully seeing how a faithcentered on the Prince of Peace
drifted toward firearms and feardriven narratives. Bill shares
how his own ministry firstcollided with concealed weapons,
the historical shifts that movedChristians away from non
(01:37):
violence and why fear has becomesuch a powerful force in our
churches and in our politics. Wetalk about Christian
nationalism, the idolizing ofthe Second Amendment and the
resistance to common sense gunreforms that most Christians
actually want we also look athow other countries have
successfully reduced massshootings, why thoughts and
(01:57):
prayers can't be the end of ourresponse, and what a truly pro
life ethic requires of us today.
So if you care about breakingcycles of violence and following
Jesus in a way that reflects hislove, courage and peace, this
conversation is worth your time,so join us. Here is my
conversation with Bill Colebill, welcome to shifting
(02:18):
culture. Honor to have you on.
Thanks for joining me. ThanksJosh for having me. I'm thrilled
we're going to be talking aboutguns today and the what you call
the unholy trinity of whiteevangelicals, politics and
firearms in your new book inguns we trust. This is a book
that made me angry, as we in thewhite evangelical space have
(02:40):
really been complicit in gunviolence because of our embrace
of gun culture, you have a storyof merging evangelical faith
into missionary work. You're ajournalist. Have been around the
world as a foreigncorrespondent. You've covered
gun violence as well as ajournalist, how has? How's these
(03:03):
things as a journalist, yourevangelical faith in your life,
how they merged together to comeinto this moment.
Unknown (03:14):
Oh, man, I'm not sure that they've merged so much as
they have collided within mysoul. And I really honestly, in
all transparency, I can nolonger, in good faith and in
good conscience identify as anevangelical. I am very much an
ex angelical. I am also verymuch a Jesus follower and
(03:34):
someone who finds faith, youknow, even more important it to
me than when I started thisinvestigation, in some ways. But
yeah, I've everything Ieverything that Christianity
promised me when I firstbelieved it. This feels like a
betrayal of all the beauty andjoy and purity of my faith, to
(03:54):
see Christians, you know,gravitate so strongly to the gun
culture and to embrace it, it'sjust bewildering to me.
Joshua Johnson (04:03):
One of the first stories you talk about is
leading worship and peoplecarrying weapons while you're
leading worship. Just share thatstory for a moment to take us
into how you actually rubbed upagainst gun culture in the
church.
Unknown (04:19):
Sure, so actually, the incident you mentioned there is
kind of what set me on thisquest. I was a worship leader at
a mega church in Massachusettswhen my bass player showed up
for rehearsal with a ninemillimeter Sig Sauer semi
automatic handgun, and it justliterally blew my socks off. I
(04:41):
mean, I could not wrap my mindaround, and then I kind of
confronted him and and said,Dude, why? You know we're here,
you know, singing and preparing,you know, to lead the
congregation on Sunday inworship of the Prince of Peace,
and you're carrying this semiautomatic weapon. It was the
first time it kind of like myproverbial scales fell off my
(05:04):
eyes. I realized that this wasactually commonplace. I didn't
know. And I've had, you know, 35years of experience with
evangelical Christianity, and Iquickly learned that many, many
people were carrying weapons,including even to church on
Sundays.
Joshua Johnson (05:21):
Let's get into some of the factors, like, how
did this start to happen? Whatwere the factors on the fusion
of gun culture and. And whiteevangelicalism,
Unknown (05:33):
it's really fascinating to me, because up until, you
know, the late 1960s or so, mostdenominations were officially
pacifist. And of course, weunderstand as Christians that
that Christianity is, I think,anyway, objectively non violent.
You know, it's really not up fordebate, right? I mean, we see
(05:53):
the person of Jesus Christcompelling us to turn the other
cheek. He laid down His life. Hecould have called it legion of
angels, you know, with swords.
That era's version of the AR 15,if you will, you know, and he
didn't do that, you know? Imean, it's so there's that,
right? But something shifted inthe late 1960s when
evangelicals, whiteevangelicals, to be more
(06:16):
specific, kind of realized thatthey had political power. And up
until then, you know, they werekind of doing their thing out of
sight of the general culture,and sort of found a voice. You
know, this all coincided withdesegregation in the United
States as well, which is not a,not a great and beautiful
beginning for a faith movementto find its political voice. But
(06:39):
that's what we had, you know? Imean, we had white Christians
who were really not that happyabout ending segregation in the
United States. But rather thancoalesce around around a
platform that problematic. Theysort of latched on to some other
issues, abortion and gun rights.
And all of this was started tobe reframed as, you know, issues
(07:02):
of religious freedom, and thenagain, superimposed over all of
that was challenges to prayer inthe public schools, which kind
of roused many whiteevangelicals and the rise of
powerful, vocal televangelistslike Jerry Falwell and the Moral
Majority movement and even BillyGraham, who, you know, is a
(07:23):
beloved figure, right to many ofus, kind of led the charge into,
you know, getting evangelicalsto Vote and to, you know, become
kingmakers in elections,
Joshua Johnson (07:34):
if you're looking at their political
power, that's, that's one ofthem. There any other factors,
as you've looked at
Unknown (07:42):
it, absolutely and I think the thread that runs
through all of this is what Icall the fear factor. And I
devote much of the book to sortof unpacking that, this idea
that they are out to get usright. And again, I've been a
evangelical Christian, Christianfor a long time. I never quite
worked out who they were. But,you know, to the to the
(08:04):
evangelical mindset, there isthis menace in in society where,
you know, there's this idea thatthat a hostile culture is is out
to get them out to to take theirBibles away, and, more recently,
out to grab their guns. And thisis a very potent, although false
(08:24):
narrative that you know, drivesgun sales. Frankly, I mean, the
gun industry in the UnitedStates is a $9 billion a year,
largely unregulated industryalso, and we can maybe talk
about this a little bit later,but also an industry in which
white evangelical Christiansplay an outsized role running a
lot of these companies. There'sa lot of ugly stuff going
(08:47):
through here, a ratherbewildering fusion of faith and
firearms that that just doesn'tseem consistent with the
Christian gospel.
Joshua Johnson (08:57):
It's not just as an anecdote from my own life is
I lived in the Middle East forfor five years, and so I'm in
the middle of of a place wherethere's there's war on all
sides. I'm living in Jordan. Sothere's war in Syria, you know,
right now there's war ISRAELPALESTINE, there's, you know, we
have war surrounding us.
Refugees are coming in. I'mdoing some refugee work, but I
(09:19):
feel safer there than I do inthe United States where I live,
and it's just and as soon as Imoved back into the US, I felt a
spirit of fear, like it was adifferent spirit that was over
the country. It was, this iswhat we swim in. It feels like
(09:40):
just the water that we swim in,or the air that we breathe, is
fear. Where do you think fear,specifically in the United
States, comes in, as you say inyour book, hey, these mass
shootings has happened aroundthe world. People have said,
Let's stand up, stop thesethings. They've had actually
(10:03):
enacted some some good gunpolicies that have stopped a lot
of these mass shootings. Why doyou think this culture of fear
really propagates in the UnitedStates?
Unknown (10:17):
It's difficult to figure out honestly, because
again, when you start to diginto this fear, you come up with
chimeras and, you know, andvapors. You don't really find
substantive reasons to beafraid. Look, there. Are around
60 million white evangelicals inthe United States. They are a
potent force. They are alsoenjoying incredible privilege,
(10:39):
politically, culturally, and tosome extent economically as
well, right? So of all thepeople, of all of the citizens
of the United States, they are,arguably, they should be the
ones who are least afraid,right? And instead, they are
very afraid. And again, this issort of mushroomed with the
(11:02):
ascendance of Christiannationalism in this country,
which just a few years ago was afringe ideology, and now it's
mainstream, right? And we seemembers of the President's
Cabinet who are unapologeticChristian nationalists. And part
of you know there's a reason,again, why white evangelicals
are so drawn to qanonconspiracies and things like
(11:24):
this, right? The idea thatthere's a secret cabal of
leftist Marxist leaders who areconspiring against the rest of
the US population, and it's aand they're all pedophiles. I
mean, this stuff is, is, iscrazy town. It really is, and it
really makes me angry, you know,but, but, you know, it persists
nonetheless, and it's hard tofigure out why. I just think
(11:46):
there has been, historically,this kind of circling of the
wagons, if you will, among whiteevangelicals, who are, you know,
determined to protect their wayof life. And lastly, there is,
has always been sort of thispatriarchal streak throughout
white evangelicalism, where, youknow, men particularly, are to
(12:08):
protect their wives and childrenat all costs, and the gun has
just really become front andcenter in that
Joshua Johnson (12:15):
Christians in the United States primarily
moved from pacifists intoembracing of firearms. That
shift. When I look at Jesus,that's why I see non violence.
That's what we've we've saidbefore. How does, how does
something like that really takeplace? Moving from like pacifism
(12:37):
into embracing of firearms,
Unknown (12:39):
there were incredible shifts, really, arguably,
seismic shifts in faithcommunities around these issues
in the 60s and the 70s, when wegot involved in Vietnam, up till
then, you know, there had beensome pretty open debate within
many evangelical circles aboutwhether even the concept of just
(13:00):
war was sound. The idea, inother words, that, yeah, there
may be times, although we arepredominantly embracing non
violence and passivism, theremay be times when force is
justified, okay? And the classicexample was Hitler's Germany
when, you know, we, we had to,you know, stop the Holocaust and
stop, stop this guy. Beforethen, there were entire
(13:23):
denominations that wouldn'tbudge on on the idea of a just
war doctrine, and so committedwere they to the tenets of non
violence within the bedrock ofChristianity, you know, and that
really started to fragment as,again, you know the old saying,
you know, absolute powercorrupts absolutely. As as
(13:43):
Christians found their voice inthe public square and realized
that, you know, they could electpresidents and Reagan was, you
know, their first prize. Youknow, they and Trump. Now, of
course, you know, whiteevangelicals are the base of
Maga and Trump world. You know,I think, I think that what I
(14:03):
see, anyway, from talking withdozens of people across
evangelical Christianity aroundthe gun question, is this idea
that you know, no, this is ourtime you know, and our time we
need to seize it with bothhands. And if that means we need
to be armed, then we will bearmed and and this is really,
really troubling to me, if wesense or feel that we really,
(14:27):
actually need to use our weaponsagainst a government that we
perceive as hostile to us in ourway of life, we are more than
ready to use those weapons, youknow. So I think that this is
really kind of developing into aperfect storm, and anyone who
cares about about democracy andand about Christianity ought to
(15:34):
be troubled. I certainly am so.
Joshua Johnson (15:37):
Is there any nuance in the second amendment
that would say, hey, maybe weshould do something different
with this gun culture inAmerica. It I mean, it seems
like the Second Amendment hasbecome like scripture for most
conservative evangelicals. Isthere any nuance? There? Is
there something to like commonsense gun reform. Is that
(16:01):
possible with something like theSecond Amendment? Yeah.
Unknown (16:04):
I mean, there's look John Paul Stevens, before he,
you know, stepped down from theSupreme Court, and a year before
his death, actually said that hefelt that the Second Amendment
was one of the greatest fraudsperpetrated upon. The American
citizenry, and that if, if itcould be done over, it should
never have, you know, been partof the constitution. So, you
(16:24):
know, there's, that's a very,very provocative, uh, statement,
right? You know, we scholarshave debated for for decades,
uh, centuries, really, about thethe well regulated militia. We
look clearly, our forefatherswanted the citizenry to be
armed, but we, let's put this inperspective, can't we? That, you
(16:47):
know? I mean, they, you know, wewere facing, you know, we were
fighting for our independencefrom Britain. We were trying to
make our way in a new country.
And you know, we were also, youknow, using muskets and powder
and you know, which took acouple of minutes to reload
after each shot, the SecondAmendment did, never, it never,
never envisioned an AR 15military style assault rifle,
(17:11):
you know. And you will never winthat argument with me, that that
you know, that those kinds ofweapons belong in civilian
hands. I just, I'm not buyingI'm just not buying it. And,
and, you know, and you know,Josh the AR 15 is actually the
weapon of choice in in Americatoday, and and among evangelical
Christians who are buying themsome families more than one. And
(17:32):
it's, it's like, somebody toldme, it's like the Ford f1 50
pickup of firearms, you know,it's just sort of like the gun
you know that you got, you gotto have. Okay, so look, part of
my writing this book was to pullback the curtain on what I see
as evangelical complicity andhypocrisy in our gun crisis. But
the other part of writing thebook was to sort of like a
(17:57):
prophetic lament, almost to thechurch, to say, Look, can we
please rethink this? Is thisreally who we want to be? Is
this who Jesus wants us to be?
Fear is the antithesis of faith,right? I mean, if you have, if
you're a person of faith, youshould not be a fearful person,
you know? I mean, these twothings are like oil and water,
(18:18):
and so I feel like we've reallybetrayed some of our the basic
aspects of what it means to be afollower of Jesus Christ when we
cling to guns and gun culture.
Joshua Johnson (18:28):
I think that quote that you you just said, is
that AR fifteens are more commonthan Ford f1 50s that came from
some evangelicals that own a gunmanufacturing plant, I think, is
that? Yes, correct? Yes, thatwas right. In that and that
section that I was right, I wasindeed. So let's go into that.
As evangelicals are, there's a,I don't know, there's a myriad
(18:53):
of gun manufacturers that areowned by evangelicals that have
actually then put bible verseson their automatic weapons,
which is kind of strange, as youwere starting to do this, this
work and interviewing them, whatwere some of the justifications
that you have found for theEvangelicals actually Owning gun
(19:17):
manufacturers and giving outselling a bunch of guns to the
public.
Unknown (19:22):
So again, and you alluded to this a moment ago,
Josh that for many evangelicals,the Second Amendment is like
scripture. It's they see it asbreathed by God. So so anything
around guns and gun freedoms isactually seen as righteous and
very much within God's will forus as a people and for us as
(19:44):
individuals. So all that theyframe it that way. And it's
important to keep that in mind.
Most of the evangelical guncompanies, I reached out to many
of them, and almost all of themshut me down. They didn't want
to talk. I was able to go downto Indiana and speak with with
one company called FOSS tech,and it's owned by some brothers
and cousins who are all whiteevangelicals. I'll be honest. I
(20:06):
flew down there, got in myrental car, and before I even
hopped out to, you know, Buzzthe buzzer at the factory, I
kind of had it, had them figuredout in my mind, you know, I
wanted them to be memes. Iwanted them to be caricatures,
good old boys, you know. Andthey weren't. They were
extremely thoughtful men, and wehad an incredible conversation
(20:29):
where they really unpacked, youknow, their justification for
putting these weapons incivilian hands, and a key value
for them is family. And so, youknow, again, they want to give
people the tools they need todefend their families in a in a
society that, you know, yeah,does have crime. That's a whole
(20:49):
other rabbit hole we can godown, because crime is down,
right? Crime is way down inAmerican cities and and the
President is, is just false.
Has, again, a false narrativethat he's using to justify
sending National Guard troopsinto cities that you know, where
murder and other violent crimeis way down, but you know, they
(21:11):
wanted to produce these weaponsfor people to have, you know, to
protect, protect their lives.
Lives and property. Should theybe menaced in any way again?
That's, that's a noble thing. Imean, I, you know, I don't think
anyone would want, you know,their their family, to be
victimized without having, youknow, without doing something
about it. But there's thisoverwhelming feeling as well
that we might be called upon touse our arms, to take up arms
(21:35):
against the government. Youknow, this was, this is part of
the of the Second Amendment,this idea that, you know,
there's a, kind of a hidden armywithin the United States to make
sure that, you know, we don'thave tyranny. All right, so
let's unpack that for a second,right? I mean, so, so let's
make, let's assume thateverybody in the country has an
AR 15, okay, the government hasnukes, attack helicopters,
(21:58):
submarines, tanks, you know,drones. I mean, the list goes on
and on. Do you really think thatwith even with your AR 15
military style assault rifle,that you're going to defend
yourself against a governmentwith all those tools at its
disposal? It breaks the logicjust escapes me here, you know,
and what we're left with is a isan evangelical embrace of guns
(22:21):
as the answer to our gun crisis.
In other words, we have a guncrisis. We need more guns. How
are we ever going to get out ofthis vicious cycle if we, if we
don't break that way ofthinking,
Joshua Johnson (22:36):
as we see gun violence, and we see mass
shootings a lot. I don't evenknow how many mass shootings
we've already had this year inAmerica, but it's in the
hundreds. It's a lot of massshootings. In the most horrific
mass shootings, what I see is alot of people have the argument,
(22:56):
well, guns don't kill people.
People kill people. So don'tworry about the gun issue. It's
not the guns. It's the people weneed to work on mental health or
something else. It's not theguns that's a big thing. And
then another thing from a lot ofthe evangelical church is a
thoughts and prayers are goingout. There's no really action to
the prayer is just thoughts andprayers to the community. What
(23:20):
would you say to both of thosethings? Thoughts and prayers to
the community, and guns don'tkill people. People. Kill
people, right?
Unknown (23:30):
So to the to the first point that guns don't kill
people, okay, sure, but youknow, we are awash in weapons.
We've got more guns thancitizens in the United States,
we don't. We have so many guns.
We don't even know how many gunswe have. It's hard. Somewhere
north of 400 million guns inthis country. There's, there's a
in Switzerland, in Switzerland,there's a, there's a group
(23:51):
called the small arms survey,which does excellent and very
accurate work looking at gunculture globally, the most
recent survey shows that we have120 firearms for every 100
citizens, which puts us way, wayat the top of the international
rankings. The next country isthe Falkland Islands, which has
(24:13):
62 firearms for every 100citizens. So we're like, double,
you know, the next on the list,you know, look like you. I've
worked and livedinternationally. I actually
spent the better part of 20years as a foreign correspondent
for The Associated Press inEurope. I also worked in Africa
and the Middle East onassignment. You just don't find
(24:33):
this kind of gun violenceanywhere else in the world, not
even in places like Gaza. Imean, you know, really, I mean,
people are not, you know,killing each other. Like,
obviously, there's war, youknow, and there's, you know,
there, but, but, yeah, but youknow, it just doesn't happen.
And you know, mental health isalways raised as an issue. I'm
(24:56):
not going to deny that. Ofcourse, some some shooters may
be mentally ill. That that'sthat's quite possible. But
again, mental illness occurs inevery country of the world. You
know, we don't have a, you know,we don't corner the market on on
psychiatric, you know, disordersand and yet again, they don't
(25:17):
have these kinds of ofshootings. And this frequency
where we actually have more massshootings in the United States
than we have days of the year.
In fact, it just before covid,we had twice as many mass
shootings as days of the year.
You know, it was, it was up inthe 600 high six hundreds. You
know, a mass shooting for ourpurposes, by the way, for our
(25:38):
listeners, is generally definedas a shooting in which at least
four people are injured orkilled, not counting the
shooter. So that's sort of thebenchmark, right? So look, we
guns are within easy reach inthis country, and that's what's
driving our our uniquelyAmerican gun scourge. And then
(26:00):
to your second question aboutthoughts and prayers. Look, I'm
a, you know, I'm a Jesusfollower, I I'm a thinking
person, and I pray, right? So Isend thoughts and prayers all
the time, right? It's part ofwhat we call being you. Know,
it's empathy, it's, it'scompassion. There's nothing
wrong with thoughts and prayers.
(26:22):
Okay, where it becomesproblematic is we're when we
stop and when, when we allow ourthoughts and prayers to absolve
us of any concrete action. Andthat's exactly what we've done
in this country. You know, I wasthe AP bureau chief for New
England when, when a gunmanentered Sandy Hook Elementary
School in Newtown, Connecticutand and turned it into a killing
(26:43):
field. And we all thought thatthat would be like this
transcendent moment wheneverything would change, when we
would finally reclaim ourcollective sanity and do
something concrete. And therewas for, you know, a few days,
maybe a week, there was thissort of sense of hope and, and
(27:04):
it just dissolved, right? Wejust never could get off of of,
get anywhere practical on thisissue, and, and so, yeah,
thoughts and prayers in thiscontext are pretty useless
honestly, you know. And when youtalk to people who have had
their families touched by gunviolence, they get pretty
cynical about thoughts andprayers, because they, you know,
(27:26):
they don't want to hear it allright. They want to see real
action. So, oh, one and oneother thought then, well, just
to, just to complete that, thecircle on that. So evangelicals,
again, I've been asked, Why areyou picking on evangelicals, you
know, first, first of all,they're my, my former tribe. I
love them, you know. And I feel,I feel entitled and qualified to
(27:49):
sort of, you know, address whatI see as their shortcomings.
Because I was in that movementbig time, for a long time. The
biggest problem here in thecomplicity is that being such a
persuasive and powerfulpolitical group, they actually
could stop gun violence tomorrowby siding with gun violence, you
(28:11):
know, prevention activists andyou know by actually embracing
their pro life stance to extendthat to to gun violence, and
instead, they elect like mindedpeople to Governor's offices and
state legislatures and Congressand and so that's where that
that's actually the biggestproblem, right is that they're
(28:33):
they're perpetuating our crisisby Not allowing our elected
representatives to carry out thecommon sense reforms that most
of us say we want.
Joshua Johnson (28:42):
I do believe that a pro life stand should be
pro all of life, and not justpro life in the womb, but pro
all of life. So that needs tohappen, but we have seen in
other countries that massshootings have happened then
they actually do pass somecommon sense gun reform, and
it's helpful. As you've wentaround the world and you've
(29:04):
researched, what did you findother countries implement and do
to actually negate some of this,these mass shootings, from
happening, I'm
Unknown (29:13):
so I'm so glad you you brought that up because, you
know, we we tend to have thissense of fatalism about the gun
violence crisis in the UnitedStates. We feel like we can't do
anything about it. We're just,you know, we can actually and
other countries have so,notably, Australia, in 1996 had
a horrible bloodbath in PortArthur, where a gunman over over
(29:38):
a period of, like, a couple ofdays, just, you know, walked
around, you know,indiscriminately, shooting and
killing people, and it would soscandalize the country that very
quickly they were able to enactlaws restricting access to, you
know, most firearms, so by thegeneral public, and with, With
very few exceptions have had anykind of a repeat like that. You
(30:01):
know, since then, and NewZealand, just a few years ago,
had had these shootings at somemosques that were horrible with
a great loss of life and tookdecisive action, kind of
borrowing from the Australianplaybook, you know, restricting
access to automatic weapons andsemi automatic weapons, and
greatly tightening up, you know,on on, on, all of that. And
(30:23):
they've had success with, youknow, removing gun violence from
from their their, you know,lists of societal ills. For the
book, I went to the UK, toScotland, where the little town
of Dunblane had its own versionof Sandy Hook in also 1996 the
same year as Australia had itstroubles, they lost 16 primary
(30:46):
school students and theirteacher who died trying to
protect them. And again, theywere so scandalized and so
struck by this senseless actthat within days, a grassroots
movement built, and it became sopersuasive and so energetic that
even, you know, members ofparliament jumped on and and
(31:10):
they again, they were able toactually enact common sense
legislation restrict access tothese kinds of weapons. And, you
know. They have not had a massshooting in the United Kingdom
since then. That was almost nextyear. That will be 30 years,
right, since that horrible thinghappened. So you can't tell me
that it can't be done. You know,yes, we have a second amendment
(31:32):
in, you know, to ourConstitution, but you know,
who's to say we can't, you know,work with that and pass laws
that will at least get the, youknow, the military style weapons
off the streets. We have surveysthat show consistently that a
massive plurality of Americanswant a ban on military style
(31:53):
assault rifles. We're talkingabout, you know, north of 80% of
Americans want this. Isn't thata, you know, in a democracy,
isn't that an imperative? Isn'tthat, you know, aren't we
supposed to, you know, do whatthe people want. So I think, you
know, we can do this. We have ahuge, lucrative gun industry and
a powerful gun lobby, and weneed to overcome those things
(32:15):
somehow.
Joshua Johnson (32:16):
Is there anything moving the needle in
America right now. Have youfound, found people? And I know
there's some places in your bookthat there are people trying to
do something. One, are You, youactually go and visit some, some
gun buyback places? Do you thinkit's making a difference? Is
there anything making adifference right now? Is it
helping?
Unknown (32:37):
I think it is, I think, unfortunately, it's, it's small
scale, you know, we are puttingsomewhere around 37,000 weapons
a day into the marketplace, youknow. I mean, it's, and, you
know, the numbers of guns we'retaking off the streets are, you
know, a tiny fraction of that.
So it feels a little futile. ButI think anything that you know
(32:59):
that gets any guns off thestreets is a great thing. Let's
keep in mind too. Let me justinterject here, because we're
we've been talking mostly aboutmass shootings and mass casualty
events, and we have a lot ofthose. But the greatest by far,
the greatest number of gundeaths are suicides, and so
again, I appeal to myevangelical brothers and
(33:20):
sisters, if you care about life,if you really care about about
life, you'll care about this.
You know that this is somethingthat NRA doesn't want you to
know, but your home becomes lesssafe, not more safe, the moment
you bring a gun inside. And I'llcircle back to the to the good
stuff that's happening in asecond, but I just wanted to
(33:41):
interject that here, because Ithink it's important, right?
We're running around 47,000 gundeaths a year, and about 27,000
of those are suicides. So ifthere's a gun in your home and
you're going through a bit of acrisis, the chances of you
succeeding in an attempt arevery, very good, unfortunately,
(34:02):
with a firearm, right? Sothere's that. There's also, and
this is really disturbing andastonishing to me, but the
accidental deaths of children inthe United States, guns account
for the greatest number ofaccidental deaths, more than car
crashes, actually. So you know,you again, you have a gun in the
home, and people you know inorder to feel like they have it
(34:26):
within easy reach defy commonsense and in many cases, safe
storage laws and keep that gunloaded on their nightstand or in
the, in the, in the littledrawer of their nightstand right
next to their Bible, right? Youknow, and that so that gun is
loaded and ready, you know, fora home invasion or something
(34:47):
like that. That's not how you'resupposed to store your weapon,
right? It's supposed to belocked up separately from the
ammunition that's supposed to belocked up, right? And a kid, you
know, a child can can, you know,find your weapon and play with
it with it with tragicconsequences. And it happens all
the time. It's heartbreaking,right? So there's that. And then
finally, you know, domesticviolence, I mean, when there's a
(35:07):
gun in the home and there's adust up between husband and
wife, or, you know, the chancesof that becoming a homicide are
exponentially greater if thereis a gun, and we see this all
the time as well. So these areall reasons why, you know,
beyond mass shootings, that weneed to be invested in trying
to, you know, turn the tidehere. But yes, there are gun
(35:29):
amnesty programs buybacks.
There's some beautiful workbeing done. Shane Claiborne in
Philadelphia, who founded RedLetter Christians, and, you
know, has also written a bookabout about gun violence and
efforts to end the scourge.
Helped found raw tools, whichgoes around collecting weapons
(35:49):
that are turned in, sometimes inin cooperation with police
forces who offer, you know,folks to turn turn in their
weapons. No questions asked, thepeople who turn in their weapons
get cash or a gift card or agrocery card, whatever, you
know, and it's on a slidingscale, it can be a few $100 so
for, for, you know, an AR 15 andmaybe 200 for a rifle, you know
(36:12):
150 or whatever. For, you know,a handgun, and it's real, it's
real cash. Right, you know? Andand then they take these they do
something beautiful. They theyhave these portable forges that
they heat up to like 2000degrees Fahrenheit, and they
beat these guns into gardentools, right? Almost literally
beating swords into plowshares,as we see in Isaiah, which I
(36:33):
think is, it gives me chillsevery time I consider that. So
there's that. Then there's a fewother things, if I may
highlight. There are progressiveChristians doing a lot of work
like this. My favorite exampleis a group of rogue nuns who are
buying stock in gunmanufacturing companies, which
(36:55):
then gives them the sort of aseat at the table. They, if they
buy enough shares, they canintroduce shareholder
resolutions aimed at, you know,compelling the gun manufacturer
to spend more time and treasureon, you know, safety measures
for its firearms, or, you know,or and actually persuading them
(38:16):
and pressuring them from theinside out to stop marketing
weapons to young people, right?
Because there's, there's a nexusof, you know, gun, gun violence
is glorified in video games, andthen sometimes the gun
manufacturers, you know,advertise around that. And it's
sort of, you know, it's, it's aproblem. So I think there's,
there's some beautiful workbeing done. What I'll tell you,
Joshua is that i i seeevangelicals as mostly invisible
(38:40):
in that work it is. It's beingdone by by progressive
Christians who like and I'm aprogressive Christian now,
right? I was an evangelical.
Evangelicals have since told methat I'm no longer a Christian,
because I'm not an evangelicalanymore, you know, because they
own right, because evangelicalsown, own own the kingdom, and
(39:00):
they decide, you know, who, whogets to to go to Paradise and
who doesn't? And apparently, Idon't get to go anymore, which
is, which is anotherconversation for another time.
But it's, it's, it's, it'spretty damned infuriating from
where I sit, you know, assomebody who, deeply loves, you
know, but anyway, how
Joshua Johnson (39:21):
do we actually follow Jesus in a way that he
talks about in Scripture, theways and the teachings of Jesus?
Unknown (39:32):
I think there is, I think it's a challenge. I
forgive me for being so brashhere, but I see incredible
arrogance among my evangelicalbrothers and sisters, some
spiritual arrogance which ishard to penetrate. At the same
time, evangelicals are not amonolith, any more than any
other group, and I was heartenedby conversations I had in
(39:55):
researching and reporting thebook with evangelicals who some
are questioning this, you know,fealty to firearms. And I think
that some are persuadable, youknow, not, not. And first of
all, not every evangelical ownsa weapon. And even some who do
are, you know, persuadable interms of, gee, do I really need
this thing, you know? And Ithink this is where I you know,
(40:18):
in terms of solutions, in termsof hope, work. How can we break
this cycle? You know, I kind oflay some of these things out in
the book. I don't think that wecan solve our gun crisis without
intentional conversation withevangelicals. Because, again, of
you know, such a central rolethat they play here. And I think
(40:41):
it's tempting to demonizeevangelicals on this issue and
to isolate them and even toalmost ignore them or brush them
off, but that's a mistake,because, you know, we have to,
we have to dialog with people. Ithink, I think one, there are
two areas we already kind oftouched on on one earlier in
this conversation, and that ismaybe appealing to evangelicals
(41:04):
sense of being pro life, ofbeing, of being, you know, of
upholding the sanctity of lifeand and getting them to rethink
gun culture, because it, youknow, it robs people of life,
you know. And that's apersuasive argument that can get
some traction. And the other oneis, you know, evangelicals are,
tend to be scriptural purists.
And, you know, take take theirBibles very seriously. And, you
(41:28):
know, I think there's aninteresting conversation that
can be had with folks aroundjuxtaposing the Second Amendment
and the second commandment, youknow, the second commandment is
that we don't have idols, youknow. And we actually have what,
what boils down to gun idolatryin white evangelical circles,
you know, where people are, aretrusting more in their in their
(41:52):
firearm than they are in Jesusand and that's so the you know,
that's problematic. But I think,you know, again, that could, I
don't think that evangelicalshave always framed it or looked
at it that way, and that, youknow, I found in some
conversations that that getstheir attention, you know, like,
oh, well, I don't want to, Idon't want to do that, but it's,
it's hard. It's hard becauseeveryone is just so dug in here,
(42:14):
you know. And I guess that'sprobably. The sort of our
cultural moment, our politicalmoment, not just on guns, but on
everything.
Joshua Johnson (42:23):
I mean, it feels like everybody's dug in their
position, and they are like, I'mjust not going to be swayed the
other way. We're not going totalk anymore. And when we talk,
it's just It delves into just ashouting match and arguing and,
you know, so we're not actuallylistening to each other anymore.
So we actually need to hear eachother have a conversation like a
(42:44):
real conversation, and not justtalk at each other. I hope that
happens. What is your hope forthis book in guns we trust? What
do you want? As if you talk toyour readers, you talk to the
United States in particular.
What do you hope for this?
Unknown (43:03):
Well, again, first, I really felt like I needed to
pull back the curtain on what'sreally going on here, because
the evangelical complicity inour gun crisis is profound, and
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize it. You know, I've
never, I've never suggested fora moment that evangelicals are
shooting up the country. That'snot what this is about, you
(43:23):
know. And I think again, thegreat majority of gun owners,
evangelical or otherwise, areresponsible people. But it feels
to me like, if you are a personof faith, that you're going to,
you know, want to be invested inmaking, you know, society a
better place. Christians were atthe forefront of some, you know,
(43:44):
some of our greatest socialills. I'm thinking particularly
of child labor, whereChristians, you know, largely
took the lead on that issue.
And, you know, and, and that wasa horrible thing for decades,
for centuries. And so I think,you know, I was talking with
somebody the other day, and Imaybe this was a little snarky
of me, but I I suggested that,you know, if you're going to be
(44:05):
a person of faith, maybe youought to take the spiritual
equivalent of the HippocraticOath above all, do no harm,
right? So I think this is my sofor the general public, I want
to pull back the curtain showthem evangelicals are really all
up in this mess, you know, andthey're blocking progress for
the rest of us, and so arguably,they're making the country less
(44:27):
safe for the rest of us bypropagating this gun culture,
just by virtue of their numbersand their and their the way they
look at the second amendment andand the way they look At guns,
but also to just sort of holdout an olive branch to my former
faith tribe and and say, can wejust talk about this? Because
whatever we're doing now, it'sjust not working, and maybe
(44:49):
together, we can find a wayforward that that actually
values life and honors God.
Joshua Johnson (44:57):
I hope so. I really do couple quick questions
I have for you here at the endBill one, if you go back to your
21 year old self, what advicewould you give?
Unknown (45:06):
Well, honestly, I, you know, I was, I came to faith
when I was hitchhiking home fromcollege and an evangelical
picked me up, a progressiveChristian, a new friend and ally
on this gun issue, actually toldme the other day. She said,
Gosh, I wish I was the one whohad picked you up when you were
hitchhiking, so that you couldhave actually entered, entered
(45:28):
a, you know, a branch ofChristianity that actually saw
working for the common good andtrying to be real salt and light
in the world as good things and,you know, yeah, so I guess I
would, in some ways, I wish thatI didn't spend as much time and
treasure in evangelicalChristianity, because I, you
know, as I said at the top, Ikind of feel betrayed right now.
(45:52):
I'm deconstructing my faith andreconstructing it. I'm committed
to reconstructing it. I reallyam. But I this has kind of
rocked my world, personally andspiritually. So I guess, I guess
I would, I would have to tell my21 year old self, hang in there,
buddy. You know, I mean it, it'sbeen a bumpy ride. But you know,
(46:13):
as long as we still have breathand purpose, we ain't done yet.
Joshua Johnson (46:17):
That's right, anything you've been reading or
watching lately you couldrecommend,
Unknown (46:22):
well, I mean, if anybody wants to go deeper on
this issue, I highly recommendKristen Kobe Dumais, best
selling book Jesus and JohnWayne, which really, really
traces in excruciating andactually maddening detail. How
this, you know, how Jesus cameto be viewed as kind of a Rambo
(46:44):
slash Marlboro Man, you know,figure, I highly, I highly
recommend her, her book, youknow, it's, yeah, that really,
really, sort of, you know, laysbare how we got away from the
person of Jesus that you know, Ithink a lot of us thought we
knew and hardly recognizeanymore, in in white Christian
(47:05):
nationalist circles
Joshua Johnson (47:07):
and guns we trust, is out anywhere books are
sold. Is there anywhere inparticular that you'd like to
point people to to get the bookor to connect with you? Yeah.
Unknown (47:16):
I mean, look that you can get. Anywhere. I always
point people to their localindependent bookstores, because
I think these are treasures inour society. And of course, you
can buy it on Amazon, Barnes andNoble Target, Walmart, all the
usual suspects. I'm always alittle reluctant to make Jeff
(47:37):
Bezos a richer man, so I again,I point folks to their
independent bookstores, andthere are a lot of public
libraries who are putting thebook on their shelves, which is
very encouraging. I got a chanceto speak at the American Library
Association Annual Conference inPhiladelphia this past summer,
and there was great enthusiasmfor this title. So I hope you
(47:59):
read it, and if you do, pleasedrop a review in Goodreads or on
Amazon, because that sort ofjuices the algorithm to put it
in front of more people, andmore than anything, more than
wanting to sell books, I reallywant people to own a piece of
this fight and And and invest injust trying to turn the corner
(48:21):
on this maddening, endlesscycle.
Joshua Johnson (48:23):
Well, Bill, thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for this book in gunswe trust. Thank you for making
me angry to move towardssomething that, hey, I need to
actually continue to dosomething to call out this,
these cycles of violence that wehave been in, and and say that I
I truly believe that the way oflove and Jesus and peace is
(48:45):
really the only way to breakcycles of violence. This is what
I've come to like. This is it?
It's the actually embodying theways of Jesus, which is
nonviolent, the way of love. Andif we could do that, we may
actually move the needle andactually see less gun deaths,
less deaths in the UnitedStates, that we can get rid of
(49:05):
all of these, a lot of theseguns that we have, and we could
actually implement some commonsense gun reform in this
country, so that we can actuallysee life in this country, and I
don't have to be moved towardsfear, to pray for my son and
school to be protected everytime he goes into school, but I
could actually just pray in loveand care for the school instead
(49:29):
of out of fear. So thank you,Bill. It was a great
conversation.
Unknown (49:34):
Great conversation. You know, we don't have to keep
living like this, and we don'thave to keep dying like this. So
thank you for you know, givingme a chance to talk about these
issues and God, bless you. You.
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