December 16, 2025 • 55 mins
In this episode, pastor and author Kate Murphy shares the surprising story behind Lost, Hidden, Small, a season when ministry fell apart, illusions shattered, and the only way forward was surrender. Kate reflects on discovering that God often does His deepest work in places that look like failure, weakness, and smallness, and how her congregation learned to see again, love their neighbors without transaction, and trust God for resurrection they could not manufacture. This conversation offers a hopeful reminder that faithfulness, not success, is the true metric of the kingdom, and that the quiet and hidden work of God in ordinary communities still creates life beyond anything we can imagine.
Kate Murphy serves as the pastor of The Grove Presbyterian Church, a multi-ethnic congregation in Charlotte NC. Originally from Louisville, KY, she studied biology and music at DePauw University in Greencastle, IN. She received her Masters of Divinity and Masters of Sacred Theology from Boston University and accepted her first call to be an Associate Pastor at Fourth Presbyterian, a multicultural, inner-city church in South Boston. She's just published her first book, Lost Hidden Small. In her free time, Kate enjoys running, reading, writing, drinking coffee, and watching pointless reality television. She and her husband Colin have three daughters.
Kate's Book:
Kate's Recommendations:
Looking Inward, Living Outward
Field Notes for the Wilderness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kate Murphy (00:31):
God was being tremendously faithful to me and
to my community by exposing allof our idols, by smashing all of
our illusions, so that we couldbegin to live in the truth that
looked like death, but butreally was life you
Joshua Johnson (00:58):
John, hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, what if
the most powerful work God isdoing right now isn't in the
big, shiny, impressive places,but in the lost, the hidden and
the small. In this episode,Pastor Kate Murphy invites us
(01:21):
into the story of her ownunraveling and rebuilding, a
moment when everything sheexpected from Ministry collapsed
and the only thing left wassurrender. From there, God began
opening her eyes, peeling backillusion, exposing idols and
revealing a way of being thechurch that looks far more like
the upside down Kingdom Jesusdescribes than the metrics we
(01:42):
often Chase. Kate shares how herown congregation moved from
decline and discouragement intoa living, breathing outpost of
hope, one where weakness becamea doorway, neighbors became kin,
and faithfulness replacedsuccess as the defining metric.
Together, we talk about learningto see again, embracing
smallness, letting go ofoutcomes, and trusting that
(02:05):
resurrection always begins inplaces that feel like death. If
you've ever wondered whether thequiet, ordinary, hidden work
you're doing matters if you'vefelt the weight of leading,
serving or simply trying to befaithful when things aren't
working. This conversation is abreadcrumb of hope, because the
Kingdom is still breaking inoften, but we least expect it.
(02:29):
Here is my conversation withKate Murphy, Kate, welcome to
shifting culture. Excited tohave you on thank you for
joining me.
Kate Murphy (02:37):
Thank you so much for having me. It's going to be
so fun.
Joshua Johnson (02:41):
Yeah, well, we're going to talk about your
book, lost, hidden, small, whichis a fantastic read. It's a
great book. It's makes me wantto follow Jesus even more, and
that's, I think, a greattestament to what you've done,
what you've put in here youstart in your preface about a
moment when you felt like youwanted to give up. You're done,
(03:04):
but it was a moment that shiftedand changed, and you said it was
the beginning of something. Takeme into that moment for us to
get us started, and what wasabout to change.
Kate Murphy (03:17):
I start the book kind of at the trough of my own
journey. So I was about, Ithink, about 10 years in as a
pastor at that point, and threeyears into, the first time that
I had ever been given theopportunity to lead a
congregation, and thecongregation that I was leading
(03:40):
had really been in decline forthe past. If you measure decline
by the ways that we normally do,you know, budgets and buildings
and bottoms and seats, then wehad been in decline for, like,
30 years, and so I had come inwith just a lot of joy and
excitement to step into thisnext phase of my calling, and I
(04:03):
had a lot of relevantexperience. And so I really
believed I was coming in humbly,and believed that the Lord had
called me and prepared me, youknow, to be a catalyst for
renewal in the congregation. Andthe book kind of begins three
years in. And really having justrun as fast and as hard as I
(04:25):
could have run for three years,and used all of my gifting and
sort of left it all on thefield, and really discovering
that I was not a catalyst toanything, and that the church
was was not experiencingrevitalization and spiritual
growth in the way that we wereall longing for and and just
(04:47):
recognizing that like I didn'tWant to give up, but I knew I
was no longer operating underthe illusion that there was
anything I could do that wouldbring really resurrection into
the community. And so I justfelt like such a failure. And I
was so confused, because I hadso clearly experienced a call
(05:08):
from God to become a pastor. Andso then to kind of get into the
moment where it mattered most,and recognized I didn't have
what this community was longingfor, and I did know that God is
still in the business of makingchurches that make disciples,
and we just weren't. And so Ireally just was so. Despairing
(05:32):
at the depth of my failure, andthen it was in that moment of
just being like there's nothingelse I can do. And it was only
in that moment that I was sortof backed into the kind of
surrender where I could becomeaware of what God was doing and
follow follow the Lord, insteadof trying to lead people for
(05:54):
God, a
Joshua Johnson (05:55):
lot of people, I wouldn't say everybody, but a
lot of people get into thatposition where we come in
humbly. We think we're we'rehumble, full of joy that we're
going to let the Lord lead andguide in this area, but we put
it on our shoulders. And what isthat for i for you specifically,
(06:15):
and for pastors as they if theyput it all on their shoulders,
how does that feel? What's theweight of that to shepherd a
congregation throughrevitalization and wanting to
see growth and change and makingit all about what you do and how
you perform
Kate Murphy (06:36):
well, I think, in that time again, as a function
of my despair, which I look backnow and see was really holy and
really a gift. And I I hadsought out a spiritual director
in that time, and I remember Iused to come see her every
Friday and just, you know, feltlike I was drowning. Not to be
(06:58):
melodramatic, but I'll say thisjust in case someone else is
listening and feeling the sameway. This sounds so extreme, but
it's real. I remember used to Iwould be driving around the city
doing whatever, and just kind ofwondering, like, is it possible
that I'm already dead, and Idon't know it like I just really
was working so hard to treadwater, and I would go in every
(07:19):
Friday and just feel, you know,so overwhelmed and confused. And
I remember one day, I wassitting with my spiritual
director, and she looked at meand she said, God, misses you.
And she said, your wholeidentity and your whole
relationship with God is yourministry and what's happening in
(07:41):
this church, and that is not thelife that God has for you. And
it was sort of in that momentthat I remembered like I had a
life with God before I got acall to become a pastor, and I
experienced that, not at all asan accusation, but as kind of
like a lifeline, like I had sojoyfully thought like, Yes, I'm
(08:04):
satisfied with my ministry beingmy whole identity and my whole
relationship with God, and Iwouldn't have thought that I
could that there was anythingmore, until that just was so not
enough, and so so recognizingthat there was just something
deeply wrong, and that there wassomething more for me than
(08:25):
feeling like I was as good withGod as the last good thing that
had happened in The church, youknow that's just no way to live.
You can't, you can't live thatway. You certainly can
experience abundant life,especially if you're present
with people who really arestruggling. You have there has
to be a part of you that canremain just steady and present
(08:47):
and anchored in something otherthan your circumstances. And I
was totally angered. In mycircumstances,
Joshua Johnson (08:53):
a lot of that sometimes is a feeling of
blindness, not being able to seewhat God is doing. What is the
(09:46):
next step? Where should we go?
What's going on? You write inyour book about Luke, chapter
four, as Jesus announced hisministry, rolls out the scroll
of Isaiah, and he's he's talkingabout giving sight to the blind
as part of the good news and isfulfilled in your hearing. What
is it about this Good News ofgiving sight to the blind? How
can the blind see again, notjust physically in healing, but
(10:09):
in discernment and seeing? Whatis happening?
Kate Murphy (10:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's what looking
back. You know, that was whatthe whole experience was for me,
that this whole time that I feltlike just I was dying and being
crushed by everything. What wasreally being crushed were my
illusions, my illusions aboutwhat the church would look like,
my illusions about whatfaithfulness would look like and
(10:38):
feel like, and my illusionsabout what my role was in the
process, and so I reallybelieved that a pastor should be
sort of like a spiritual versionof the most successful CEO, you
know. So if a banker is going towork 80 hours a week and
sacrifice their family in orderto fulfill the mission of their
(11:02):
institution, then pastors shouldbe willing to work even harder
and drive themselves evenfurther and sacrifice even more
and just hold on and push evenfurther, because our mission
matters so much more than themission of making money and. So
I really, you know, I was doingthings for God, and I knew a lot
(11:22):
because I'd had the blessing of,you know, just being nurtured in
several churches and a seminaryeducation. But I just couldn't
see how the things I knew onpaper and the things that I
preached about on Sundays couldactually be walked out in my
approach and orientation towardspastoring. And, you know,
(11:42):
because I think I was anAmerican Christian in a church
full of mostly AmericanChristians, and we sort of all
had the same blind spot, whichwas, Oh, God wants us bigger.
God wants us, you know, moreimportant, more impressive to
the world with more resources.
And so when we found ourselvesin this community that just was
in no way impressive to anoutside American culture, and we
(12:07):
found ourselves called into thismission that we had no
reasonable expectation that wewould be successful at, it was
just a huge disorientation. Andit was only when you get that
desperate to go maybe myworldview is fundamentally
wrong. And I think about it inJohn I mean, I think about it in
Luke four, but I also thinkabout it sort of in John nine,
(12:28):
that it's the people who don'tknow they're sick and the people
who don't know they're blindthat can't recognize what God is
doing in their midst. And Ithink you know, God was being
tremendously faithful to me andto my community, by exposing all
of our idols, by smashing all ofour illusions, so that we could
begin to live in the truth thatlooked like death, but but
(12:50):
really was life. You know, whenthings are working for you, you
don't question your worldview.
Joshua Johnson (12:55):
How is it that you found life in things that
look like death. What? Whatshifted? What did you how did
you find life in death?
Kate Murphy (13:05):
We were walking through and the church I was
serving, we were veryintentionally trying to be open
to a transformation of the HolySpirit. So we knew that we had
three months of money left. Weknew we had a theology that
said, Hey, we're not making newdisciples, that we are in a
(13:26):
diverse community, and when wegather on Sunday mornings, we're
almost entirely white. Like weknew that things were not right.
What we didn't know was why, andwe were sort of showing up every
week, doing the things that wehad always done, because what
else are you going to do, right?
And so when you get to a pointwhere you really realize, like,
(13:46):
when I was in that moment, Ifelt like one of the things that
was our biggest liability wasthis huge pressure of not having
any money. And I just thought,like, how can we do this hard
work of reimagining what itmeans to be faithful when we
just have that constant pressureof, like, change or die, change
or die, change or die. Butlooking back, that pressure was
actually the greatest gift,because we just couldn't delude
(14:10):
ourselves into believing that wehad more time. You know, like
you you had to jump off the highdive. And so, you know, we were
willing to listen to voices thatwe normally wouldn't have been
willing to listen to. We wereready willing to try doing
things like one of the veryspecific things that we did that
we were a Presbyterian Church,and we still are, but we
(14:31):
worshiped in a very typicalPresbyterian way. So three hymns
from the hymnal, an organ, achoir, and those were very, you
know, sacred and meaningful waysfor us to encounter God. But we
knew in that moment that we weresurrounded by neighbors, many of
whom English was not their firstlanguage. We knew that people
who might start seeking God bylistening to Christian radio
(14:54):
needed to come into ourcongregation and literally
understand the words that wewere saying like if we were
singing about here I stand myEbenezer and a mighty fortress
and a bulwark. I mean, those arenot that's not language that
people use and and we knew that,hey, Jesus talked to people in
ways that they didn't need topass a vocabulary test first and
(15:16):
then understand. So it justmeant that as much as our sacred
ways were really working for us,we couldn't pretend that they
would work for our neighbors,and we really had to ask the
question, well, when we'reworshiping here, what? What is
it about? Is it about what wewant and what we prefer, or is
it about what God wants and Godprefers, and we did have the
(15:39):
sense of clarity that God wouldwant us to make the message
accessible to our neighbors,even if that wasn't our
preference. And we talked a lotabout, honestly, about pronouns
in that season, in terms of wewould talk about my church, and
really needed to go, okay, butit's not our church. It's God's
Church. And so when we'rethinking about what we should
(16:01):
do, our question shouldn't be,are we going to like it? Do we
enjoy it? Are we going to begood at it? Our question should
be, well, what do we think Godwould want? What do we think
would please the Lord? Do wethink that God on. Honestly
cares if we sing a song onSunday morning that we don't
like, if it means that ourneighbors can come and join in.
(16:23):
And we were really vulnerablebefore God, that we were trying
to be open to our neighbors, butwe knew our neighbors were going
to come if the Holy Spirit ledthem into that place, which is
not something that you wouldreasonably expect, because there
was nothing shiny, impressive orpotentially successful about the
(16:44):
church. And so when peoplestarted coming up coming, we
knew that they were followingthe Holy Spirit into that place,
and so we were really ready toreceive them as the answer to
prayer, instead of kind of atarm's length or with suspicion,
Joshua Johnson (17:05):
that paradigm to shift into looking at neighbors
neighborhood and actuallysaying, This is God's church.
What does he want to do here inthis neighborhood? Is such a
different shift than a lot ofpastors think about when it
comes to revitalization. How doI get this company of this
church to, you know, be smoothand operate smoothly, so that it
(17:30):
can can run smoothly. We likethat in America. Yeah.
Kate Murphy (17:35):
One other thing I knew walking in before I had my
own sort of spiritualtransformation, but I knew how
beautiful the neighborhood wassurrounding the church that we
were in a part of Charlottewhere I live that is very under
resourced, and it also has mostof the diversity in
neighborhoods in the whole city,like we were in a part of the
(17:57):
city where people lived inneighborhoods where they were
black and white, and, you know,Hispanic and immigrants from all
over the world living in thesame neighborhood. And I knew
walking in the door that man,that's the kingdom of heaven,
right? And then I had come fromanother church in inner city,
Boston, that had this amazingneighborhood outreach, and it
(18:18):
was this tiny, like, physicallytiny church that just did
outrageous things in theneighborhood, like run a summer
camp for 100 plus kids, and theywere in this tiny building that,
I mean, I always say it was heldtogether by spit and duct tape.
We did lunches all through thesummer, breakfast and lunches
for the kids and the wholebuilding. And this is a program
that has, you know, more than100 kids, so you factor in
(18:41):
staff, that's a lot of peoplethat building had two toilets,
not two bathrooms, two toilets,and it didn't have a garbage
disposal, and we would have to,like, pour the leftover ceiling
cereal down the toilets andflush them in order to, you
know, I mean, like, we, I justhad been part of this community
that had so been so beautifully,making it work in an urban
setting. And then I was at this,now, this church that was
(19:03):
planted by, you know, uppermiddle class, white Christians,
and then the neighborhood aroundit had changed, and there was
just much more economicdiversity and racial diversity.
And I knew walking in the doorthat God was going to have a
beautiful, vibrant outpost ofthe kingdom of God at the corner
(20:23):
of Sharon Amity and HarrisBoulevard. The question was, the
congregation who had called me,were they going to be the
congregation that built thebuilding for that church, or
were they going to be thatchurch? And I walked in the door
with kind of a lot of swaggerabout like, Oh, I know how to do
this, and then having so manyyears of just seeing a lot of
neighborhood outreach honestly,but not seeing the
(20:45):
transformation in the worshipingcommunity on Sunday mornings,
and that's when I realized,like, no, there's something
there's something deeper that weneed to figure out why we're not
connecting like heart to heart,To be able to worship God
together and not have one groupof Christians who served and
another group of Christians whomaybe were served but then
(21:06):
worshiped down the street,somewhere else or nowhere at
all.
Joshua Johnson (21:09):
Was there a shift in in thinking and posture
towards neighbors to make itlook more like kinship and more
like the kingdom of heaven, morelike, you know, every tribe,
tongue and nation together,usually what happens is, it's,
we're coming here to serve.
There's some paternalism that'sgoing on. It's really and what
is, what did mutuality start tolook like? And shifting towards
(21:32):
that,
Kate Murphy (21:36):
honestly, that started happening once the
congregation began to reallygrapple with if we're going to
be this church, this likerevelation, kind of church of
people from every nation andtongue, that means the culture,
our internal culture as achurch, is going to have to
change. And there were a lot ofpeople in the church who who
(22:00):
knew that was faithful. Therewas a smaller subset of that
group who felt like, I'm calledto be a part of that. So
honestly, I think for me as apastor, and I think probably a
lot of pastors feel this way,you feel like job number one is
to keep the community together,like keep the community you
have, and then grow it. And so,you know. When, when there comes
a point when people say, if yougo after this mission, I'm not
(22:23):
even saying it's wrong, but I'msaying it's not for me, and I'm
going somewhere else. And thatfelt like such a, I mean, a, I
loved those people, and so I didnot want them to leave. And then
B, I felt like such a failure asa pastor that I hadn't been able
to cast a vision in a way thatwould make people say, Yeah, I
want to be a part of this. Andhonestly, there were some other
(22:45):
Christians from othercommunities who who came
alongside me and sort of said,Hey, I need you to have eyes to
see that God might be pruninghere, which felt like terribly
callous to me, I had myspiritual director said, Hey,
Kate, just because you arecalled to this mission doesn't
mean that everyone is and justbecause people are leaving the
(23:09):
church, that does not mean theyare unfaithful. They can be
called to something else, andthat's not bad or wrong, right?
She was sort of saying likethey're not getting thrown off a
cliff, they're going to anothercongregation, and it really
helped me understand that, youknow, our job, ultimately, is
not to be loyal to one another,but to be as faithful as we can
be to Jesus. And sometimes, youknow, like Paul and Barnabas,
(23:31):
they split apart for a time,right? That if you're called to
something, that doesn't meanthat your neighbor is also
called to it. So once thecommunity really experienced
this big disruption and loss. Analready small church got even
smaller. You know, from thatplace of weakness, then when
your neighbors walk in the door,you're ready to receive them in
(23:51):
a different way. You and theyare coming into a space not
like, Oh, I'm I'm in theminority, but like I'm coming
into the space knowing that myvalue is is recognized here, and
people have been preparing forme in this space. But, I mean,
we have experienced resurrectionat the Grove, which was, you
(24:14):
know, a movement of God's power,not anybody else's. But you
don't get resurrection until yougo through death. And there was
a lot of dying first in that youknow, people who loved and
walked together after Christ fora long time, like the paths
diverged, and that was really,really painful.
Joshua Johnson (24:33):
There's a lot of people who are like, Hey, I just
want to go from glory to glory.
I don't want to see that deathto actually bring about some
resurrection and new life. Sohow did like this weakness and
being in a weak spot start tohelp you see Jesus's teachings,
his parables, what he's talkingabout in a new light?
Kate Murphy (24:56):
Well, I think all along the way, you know, as as
next steps on the path becameclear, I kept thinking, this is
so painful and this is so hard,like, surely God wouldn't ask
this of me. But then, you know,I was living my life, you know,
prepping sermons and preppingBible studies. So I just kept
encountering, like, the actualscriptures and realizing, like,
(25:19):
actually, you know, the peopleof faith actually walked through
a lot of loss and a lot ofhardship, and Jesus was very
clear about sacrifice. Andsometimes, you know, we get this
idea, I think, by pastors whoare marketing things to us, that
if we can only be faithful,everything's going to go our
(25:39):
way, and so to be able torecover the sense of like God is
good and God is giving us a giftof abundant life. But sometimes
we really are called to posturesof faith and actions of faith
that are sacrificial, that arehard. We were just preaching on
Jacob, wrestling with the angelthis past Sunday, and just
(26:01):
saying, hey, sometimes God showsup to wrestle with you, and that
is exhausting, and it's not fun.
And you know, if we expect thatGod always shows up like a cup
of tea, and, you know, a herosaving the day and giving us
exactly what we want. We'regoing to miss it when God
actually shows up to wrestlewith us and say, Hey, you are
(26:22):
determined to go this way, and Iam determined that you will go
that way, and just to say, yeah,sometimes we're called to do
things that do not, you know,suit our preferences, and that
can be faithful also. And sothat really helped, like, just
having this familiarity with thebiblical texts and being like,
you know, this thing that we'redoing doesn't look impressive to
(26:45):
the denominational structure,but Jesus didn't look impressive
to the denominational structure.
Or, you know, we're called intorelationship with this person,
and it doesn't look like they'regoing to have a promising
outcome. But Jesus showed up andwas in relationship with people
who, you know, being inrelationship with them cost him
(27:06):
respect in the eyes of, youknow, the people who were
honored in their days. And therewas this one older woman in the
congregation, and you know, shelost way more than I did because
she lost friends. I. She'draised her children with and
buried her parents with, andthey were leaving, and she was
staying, and she was not reallypersonally in favor of any of
(27:27):
the changes that we were making.
But she said, as she was talkingto people, she just kept saying,
I keep looking at this andthinking, what about this?
Displeases the Lord. Let me findone thing that we are trying to
do that displeases Jesus, and Ican't. And I find a lot of
things. Her name is Kay, shesaid, I find a lot of things
that displease Kay, but I can'tfind one thing that displeases
(27:50):
Jesus. So I have to keep walkingin this way. And it was that
sort of eyes being opened, likebeing given to sight that
everything that looks goodisn't, and everything that seems
like it's going to lead to lifedoesn't, and sometimes the
things that you think for sureare going to kill you are
actually the things that becomea pathway to a life that is just
(28:12):
more beautiful and rich than youever had the capacity to imagine
Joshua Johnson (28:19):
you use the motif lost, hidden and small in
your book. What do each of thosemean for you? And why do you
think Jesus kept on using thesethings over and over again?
Kate Murphy (28:32):
We often think that the kingdom of God is going to
look like whatever is big andpowerful and shiny and
celebrated in our culture, wethink like, wow, that looks
excellent to us. So God must bein it. And when Jesus taught
about the Kingdom of God, thoseare not any of the adjectives
that he used. And so in my ownjourney, you know, again,
(28:56):
starting with the, you know,sort of spiritual collapse at
the very beginning of the book,I recognized that even though I
had been prepared and trainedaccording to the denomination,
and I had a lot of the practicalskills and competencies that
pastors needed and that werevaluable, that there were things
I did not know and and things Idid not see things that had been
(29:20):
lost, and that, you know, unlikethe the framing that I grew up
with, which is like the lost,are those people over there who
don't know Jesus, let's go savethem. When Jesus teaches
parables about the lost, theseare all valuable things that
belong, that have been separatedfrom their rightful place,
(29:41):
right? So the sheep, the lostsheep, belongs in the flock, and
the lost coin is part of thetreasure, and the lost son is
part of the family. And sorecognizing that the person who
had lost something was me, wasus, and we needed to go seeking
the parts of the Jesusrevelation that we had allowed,
you know, the culture to blindus to and steal us hidden. You
(30:06):
know, the Bible is very clearthat God is both. There's this
paradox at the heart of therevelation that God is, you
know, incarnate, and that Godcomes to us and there's the
Bible is full of Revelation. Andalso, the Bible is very clear
that God is also hidden, thatthere are times that people ask
for God's name and God says, no,like, can I see you? And God
(30:27):
says, No. People do see God, andthey go, woe is me, I'm gonna
die. So there's just thistension that the Bible, the
Bible, never tries to resolve,that there is part of God that
is a mystery. And if you insiston having a faith that every
little detail makes sense toyou, what you really have is
(30:48):
idol worshiping and that it's,you know, seeking. You know,
Jesus says seek, right? Andlike, how many of us who think
of ourselves as Christiansreally are seeking the Lord.
We're not because we think wealready found him. So really
understanding that there wereparts of God that were still to
be discovered and and seekingGod, you know, in the places
(31:13):
where I assure that God wasn'tlike in my failures, in
weakness, in a practice ofrepentance. And then, as the
pastor of a small church,existing in a culture where
anything that's good is big, tosort of have to say, Okay, wait
a minute, where does my disgustfor smallness come from? It
(31:34):
doesn't come from Jesus. Andwhen I can only see God in what
is big, then I am literallymissing the revelation of who
Jesus is, who came, you know,from this small family, who was
born in this small town, whonever amassed a consistent,
large following. You know that,and you know, we know that the
(31:57):
the kingdom of God, defies thecultures of the world. And what
is more, in contrast to thedominant cultures of the world,
than an expectation that thereis something sacred and holy and
things that are small
Joshua Johnson (32:13):
so many people in revitalization are something
they want the formula and you'recalling. At idolatry, if we're
following the formula to findGod. Also, we like to measure
success. So we measure, usually,we measure it by, you know, how
many people are attending aservice, how much money you have
in the bank account, whateverthe measurement is, as you've
(32:37):
gone through this transformationand seeing Jesus in the in the
lost, in the hidden, in thesmall what does success look
like in the kingdom? What doessuccess look like for a
congregation that is trying tofaithfully follow Jesus?
Kate Murphy (32:53):
I would say three things. One thing that's helped
me so much is substituting theword success for faithfulness,
because I think, you know, it'sjust natural, especially if
you're a North AmericanChristian, that you just want to
be successful, and you think,Well, God's going to make me
successful. And I think thatthat word will lead you into
(33:13):
dangerous places. But if youreplace the word success for
faithful, then you're just opento a lot more. Because we know
that sometimes faithfulnesslooks like, Hey, you win the
battle. You know, the oil runsover and over and over and fills
all the jars and and sometimesfaithfulness looks like, you
(33:34):
know, Shadrach, Meshach andAbednego being like, I know God
can save us, but even if hedoesn't, you know we're not
bowing down to you. So just kindof knowing that all options are
on the table. And sometimes, youknow, the center of our faith is
across. And so sometimes failureand loss are very much the
results of faithfulness. And Ithink when we pursue success,
then it's really easy, you know,with with all the genuineness in
(33:57):
our hearts in the world, to justgo, Well, I God could only be
calling me to the options thatlook like they are going to lead
to success. And so we rulecertain things out because we
know that's going to lead todanger and loss and risk. So
faithfulness, really, that thathas helped a lot. And then the
other thing I would say is wehave experienced a lot of growth
(34:19):
at the Grove, and we haveexperienced growth and probably
in numbers. In our budget, we'renot building anything, but we
are rehabbing our building forthe first time in a long time.
So I want to be like, I want tosay two things at the same time
that can seem like they can'tboth be true, which is like, I
think it is faithful to want tosee growth in the kingdom of
(34:44):
God, to say, I want people toknow Jesus. I want us to be able
to serve even more of ourneighbors. Like growth in and of
itself, it is a kingdom value.
And then Jesus says, like, I'mthe vine and you are the
branches. And apart from me, youcan do nothing, but with me,
you'll bear much fruit. So wehave seen growth, but it came
when we were willing to dothings that looked like they
(35:05):
would lead to death, and it camewhen we were willing to do
things that like didn't suit ourpersonal preferences. And so,
you know, I think that's thechallenge, is to understand
that, like when God makes growthhappen, God does it in such a
(35:26):
way that the people involvedknow for sure that they're not
the ones who made it happen,right? So Gideon has this mighty
army, and then God sends twothirds of it home, because he
doesn't want the people to feelproud that they got it done for
him. They want. He wants thepeople to know that, you know,
this tiny, little ragtag bunchwill prevail because they're
(35:46):
filled with the power of God.
And so I think it's aboutunderstanding. Or for me, what
I've discovered is knowing, alot of times the thing that
saves you is not the thing thatyou expect will save you one
quick little story, and it's notin the book, but we had a
neighbor who has since died, butlived within walking distance of
(36:09):
the church, and he had lived ahard life, and he was a hard guy
to love, and he was justteetering on the edge of
Homelessness and in activeaddiction, and was just not
like, it was not fun to spendtime with him, and he used to
call me and just complain abouteverything like, and he had my
(36:30):
cell phone number, and I want tobe available to people, and he
was part of the church, but justlike, nothing was good enough.
And, you know, he was very hard.
And I really felt, I mean, I Ijust felt compelled that I had
to listen to him with love. ButI just resented so much that
this guy was just always pilingon at a time when everything was
(36:52):
hard and and one thing he wouldalways say is like, Well, when I
die, I'm going to leave thechurch a lot of money. And I
just thought, like, that's just,and I would just always say,
like, that's not, you know, wedon't want your money. Like, we
just want to be in communitywith you. We want to love you
and be loved by you. Like, it'snot about that. And, you know,
(37:13):
and I, I really knew i. Likethat was absolutely not going to
happen, but that it was faithfulto be loving to him and to
include him honestly, when hispresence in the community could
have been a deterrent for otherpeople, right? Because he was
not he was not well, and he wasnot kind, but he was desperate
for belonging, and then he justkind of disappeared. And then a
(37:34):
couple years ago, we werecontacted by a lawyer.
Apparently, this guy really didhave a lot of money, and really
did write a write a will thatleft a ton of money to the
Grove, because even in all ofhis brokenness, even in his
process, he was so grateful thatpeople at the grove tried to
(37:58):
love him, and he remembered it.
And I just think, like, it'ssuch an example of like you do
something because you just can'tshake loose, that this is what
Jesus would demand of you. Andyou know, it's faithful, even
though you don't understand why.
I mean, it wasn't because heleft us money that that was the
(38:18):
right thing to do. But I dothink it's important to
recognize that like when Godcalls us to live in a certain
way, it has benefits andblessings that we never could
have anticipated, because it'snot the way of the world, it's
the way of the kingdom and thekingdom. Think God works
differently than this place?
Joshua Johnson (38:36):
Yeah, it does.
So what does the growth looklike? What's the community like
now? How are people beingdisciples of Jesus together?
What's this community look like?
Kate Murphy (38:50):
We have experienced miraculous growth now. We are
still a small church, but we youknow, when I came, we were maybe
45 on a Sunday morning, it wasin an almost entirely white
congregation. We had one womanwho was from the Congo who
worshiped with us regularly. Thecongregation's average age was
(39:11):
65 now on a Sunday morning, thechurch is broadly speaking, half
Caucasian, half AfricanAmerican, some other folks
sprinkled in as well. This pastSunday, we called the children
up. And, I mean, it's just arandom Sunday in October, it's
not always like this, but we hadhad a lock in at the church the
night before and and there werelike 40 kids up front, and we
(39:34):
were, again, like a smallchurch. So, you know, because
the church has pivoted so hardto non transactionally serving
the neighborhood. We have a freeafter school program and summer
camp. And you know, you servepeople for a long time, and then
they start wondering about,like, why do you do this? And
(39:56):
maybe sometimes people will bepart of the after school program
for three or four years beforethey will accept an invitation
to come up on a Sunday morning.
Like it takes a long time tobuild trust with people for good
reasons, but I think you knowwhat it looks like is seeing
that God is able to build thekingdom of God all by himself,
(40:18):
as you know, as the saying goes,and that it's our job to be
faithful and to let faithfulnessto God be its own reward, and
let go of outcomes. And then,you know, I just think God
delights in showing himself tobe faithful. And we find a lot
(40:38):
of people who you know, arelooking for a community that is
more than it appears. That, youknow, they'll see peeling paint,
and they won't be turned off bythat. They'll see like, wow,
here's a church that cares moreabout running two Vacation Bible
schools a year than about makingsure that the inside of their
building looks pristine. And,you know, I think the gospel is
(41:00):
beautiful, and when you live bygospel values, it is attractive
to people. And one of the thingsyou know, community at the grove
is different than in otherchurches, because there's so
much cultural difference thatthere isn't a lot of superficial
connection, it takes time tobuild trust and build
(41:21):
friendships. Really, the onlything we have in common is
Jesus, but that means when thoserelationships are built, they're
deep and they're rich andthey're faithful, and it's worth
it, and we talk a lot aboutlike, if you love church, then
the grove might be a place thatdisappoints you because it
doesn't have things that maybeyou had in other places. It
(41:42):
doesn't worship in the way thatyou have worshiped before. It
doesn't, you know, function insome of the same ways that
churches function. But if youare seeking Jesus, then the
Grove is a real jesusy place,because there's just nothing
else that holds us together, andthat is both really costly and
such a source of life and grace,and we sort of live every day. I
(42:07):
mean, we're still aninstitutionally weak church, not
as much as we were, but we arelike, if God doesn't provide for
us, that. We will not be heremuch longer, but if God is going
to continue to provide then whenthere are, you know, mountains
and Giants in front of us, youjust can sort of have that piece
(42:29):
of past, this understanding ofsaying like God still does
impossible things, nothing isimpossible with God. And we're
going to find that out here, dayby day, and that just brings an
abundance that I don't think youfind in the churches that
typically seem like, you know,with with all the money and all
(42:49):
the people and all the, youknow, because that can become a
burden, whereas, like, we'rereally free.
Joshua Johnson (43:00):
It reminds me of like yeast in the dough. The
kingdom of God is like yeast inthe dough, and that is like a
miracle. You're like, how isthis little thing going to rise
and get bigger and grow intothis beautiful loaf of bread? So
what is, then, the role of thekingdom of God, with the
(43:21):
congregation, with the churchand the neighborhood. What does
it look like to be yeast in
Kate Murphy (43:28):
the neighborhood? I mean, I think there are a lot of
practical things that we do. Wereally have a culture that we
want to interact with ourneighborhood in completely non
transactional ways. So like,instead of a yard give a yard
sale, we have a yard give. Like,we just gather our stuff and
then invite people in and say,Take whatever you want. And, you
(43:49):
know, there's no donation boxanywhere. We have a community
meal once a month where anybodycan come in and eat. And again,
there's no donation box, andthere's no program, there's no
preaching. There's it's justlike, come and have a meal with
us. So we do not, we don't rentour space at all. We have
partnerships with otherministries where we say, like,
(44:11):
we want to give you, you know,we want to give you space here
so that we can labor in thisvineyard together. And so I
think that really, it reallychanges the nature of our
relationships, that they're notin any way characterized by an
exchange of money. And I thinkin the neighborhood, to be able
(44:31):
to say, Look, your kids can cometo our spring break Vacation
Bible School. You don't have tobe a member of this church. You
don't have to make a donationlike you're welcome here, and
you might come in and and peopledo, like they go to the mega
church up the street, but theycome to Vacation Bible School
with us twice a year, and that'sfaithful for us, you know. And I
(44:54):
think also just recognizingthat, like, if we are who we
think God is calling us to be.
It makes sense that it'll take awhile for people to see it right
and and that not everyone willwant it in that we need to be
not sort of having some sort ofsense of spiritual superiority,
but just this great sense ofdeliverance that, like God has,
(45:14):
like led us, sometimes kickingand screaming, to this life of
freedom and abundance, and we'reso happy to share it with
anybody. And also, you know,we're not nobody owes us
anything like everything we'redoing, we're doing for Jesus.
And so however people responseresponded, that's just an
overflow. And you know, we talka lot in the community among
(45:37):
ourselves about the way we dothings matter. So like, if we
have a community meal, but ifsome teenager comes up and asks
for seconds before everyone hasfirst and somebody behind the
line makes that young personfeel stupid or rejected, then
then we've just, like, really,we've really lost, because the
(45:59):
way we do things matters morethan what we do. And I think a
lot of times, I think we getthat out of a place of real
sincerity, because we're sodetermined to do things
perfectly and excellently forJesus, and we just have so much
tension that it spills over intoour relationships with other
people, and just being able tosay, you know, this is a
community where you are allowedto fail, like we are allowed to
(46:21):
try something, and if it doesn'twork, like that is called being
human, right? And so it justcreates so much more space for
people to have ease and relaxand feeling like God really is
alive and at work in the world,and we can trust God. And one
time a couple years ago, we doonline giving and and somebody
(46:45):
forgot to, like, set it so thatwe deposit in our bank account.
And so it was, like, a monthbefore the end of the school
year, the the calendar year, andthe treasurer called me in a
panic, and he was like, Pastor,Kate, we're $50,000 short. And I
was like, Well, okay, like, Imean, that doesn't surprise me.
Of course we can be $50,000short, like, like, we're gonna
(47:07):
pray, we're gonna ask the Lordfor help. Like, if we're $50,000
short, then we'll just have to,like, cut our budget. Like, you
know what? Like, we're. I don'thave $50,000 so like, either
God's gonna help us or, youknow, God's gonna be faithful to
us in reduced circumstances, buteither way, I think none of us
(47:27):
really feel like snails with thechurch on our backs, right, like
we're partnering with God insomething. And so whatever
happens, God can still be goodto us, and God will still be
good to us. And so we can reallylearn to walk trusting in God,
even when our understandingwould reasonably lead us to
(47:47):
panic.
Joshua Johnson (47:50):
So good. What is sustaining you right now, in
your in your spiritual life,what's sustaining you?
Kate Murphy (47:56):
I am working really deliberately on a regular daily
office of pausing to pray threetimes a day. I want to be very
clear that I'm very bad at it,because I have a monkey brain
and it's really hard to sort ofstop doing things for God, to be
(48:21):
with God. But I know that mylife comes from that. I know
that sustaining me, even thoughit's hard, and I certainly, you
know, rarely experience like theangels singing when I do it,
it's just a matter of, you know,like Eugene Peterson, a long
obedience in the same direction,and just sort of knowing that
(48:43):
just because something doesn'tfeel like a dopamine hit, that
doesn't mean it isn't good forme and good to me. So that is
sustaining me. My friendshipsare sustaining me. Like, I think
that a healthy body of Christ aslike a friendship factory. And
(49:03):
so I just because of my life inthe grove, I just have so many
friends in my life right now.
And so just people who I enjoybeing with, that I enjoy being
church with, people that I feellike I don't have to hide and
pretend, that I don't have topretend that I work 90 hours a
(49:24):
week for the grove and neverhave a moment you know, like the
people who see me as you know, areal person with with gifts and
also with weaknesses and Love meanyway, and that is saving my
life, that I don't know whatwill happen, and I can't control
the future, but I don't think Iwill have to walk it alone. I
(49:45):
know that God will be with me,but I am so grateful as God with
flesh, like also having thesepeople who are with me that I'm
not alone. So that's and then Ireally experienced probably my
most intimate connections withGod through the study of
Scripture. And so I'm sothankful and grateful to have a
job that just continually sendsme to the word, and I'm
(50:09):
preparing, you know, sermon or aBible study or something, that
I'm just have the gift of beingenriched in God's word for my
actual J, O, B, and that's such,such a blessing, and that's
really sustaining me, becauseit's this counterweight to
everything that I see on thenews, and just the sense of
like, okay, this can happen.
(50:32):
This has happened before. Godhas shown us how to be faithful,
and we can take heart, becauseJesus has overcome the world.
Joshua Johnson (50:41):
A couple quick questions I have at the end
here. One, if you go back toyour 21 year old self, what
advice would you give?
Kate Murphy (50:48):
I don't know if it would be advice. I think I would
tell my 21 year old self that Iwas really okay, that my
worthiness truly was not atstake, and that God really was
going to be good to meregardless of how faithful I
(51:12):
was. Like, just like, relax, thefuture is not at stake. God
really is a good shepherd.
Joshua Johnson (51:20):
So good anything you've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend.
Kate Murphy (51:24):
There's a another pastor I know of, Daniel
walpart, I think is how you sayhis name, and he has written a
book called Living inward,looking outward. Inward, outward
is in the title, but it's allabout the connection between
contemplative prayer andneighbor, love and social
action. You know, so often wefeel like you're you're either
(51:47):
one kind of Christian or theother, and so just this sense of
how being deeply, deeplyimmersed in the kingdom of God
through contemplative practiceswon't pull you away from
engaging with the world, butwill show you how to engage even
more deeply with the world. Somereading that, and then Sarah
(52:08):
bessie's field notes. I reallyappreciate Sarah Bessie, and
appreciate that particular book.
Joshua Johnson (52:14):
It was my book of the year last year. It was,
it Okay, yeah. It's a fantastic.
Book. I love it. So, yeah, itwas really, really good. Kate,
this has been fantastic. Lost,hidden small is out available
anywhere books are sold. Isthere anywhere you'd like to
point people to to get the book?
Or how could they connect withyou and what you're doing?
Kate Murphy (52:34):
I would love for people to get the book anywhere
they can get it. I'm it's such adream for me that people would
have this book. It is what I Ilike God was so faithful to me
through my process, but it wouldhave been so faithful to me to
have a witness like this, thatthat even though it felt like
(52:57):
everything was dying and goingwrong, there was still hope. So
I just really hope that peoplewill get it. And I really would
love to, would love to interactwith people about the book. The
our church website has my emailaddress on it, Pastor Kate at
the Grove, charlotte.org and Iwould love to interact about it.
I am ridiculously in love withlocal church, like real
(53:22):
community, where people can walkin and know and be known. And I
I just, I agree with BillHybels, I think the local church
is the hope of the world. And Ireally want this book to be like
a breadcrumb of hope to peoplewho are trying to figure out how
to continue to sustain anoutpost of the kingdom of God in
(53:47):
their neighborhood, that thatwhat you're doing matters, that
that goodness lies ahead of youand that you already have what
you need to be faithful in thisseason.
Joshua Johnson (53:57):
Well, that was a beautiful summation, and you
said it better than I could. SoKate, thank you for this
conversation. I really, reallyenjoyed it, and I just pray
people would find find hope, andthose little breadcrumbs of hope
in this conversation, in thebook and in the words of Jesus.
(54:17):
And as Jesus can sustain you. Hecould sustain the people
listening, and we could see abeautiful, beautiful outpost of
the kingdom where you are. Sothank you. It was fantastic.
Kate Murphy (54:29):
Amen. Thank you.
Thank you. You. You.
God was being tremendously faithful to me and
to my community by exposing allof our idols, by smashing all of
our illusions, so that we couldbegin to live in the truth that
looked like death, but butreally was life you
Joshua Johnson (00:58):
John, hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, what if
the most powerful work God isdoing right now isn't in the
big, shiny, impressive places,but in the lost, the hidden and
the small. In this episode,Pastor Kate Murphy invites us
(01:21):
into the story of her ownunraveling and rebuilding, a
moment when everything sheexpected from Ministry collapsed
and the only thing left wassurrender. From there, God began
opening her eyes, peeling backillusion, exposing idols and
revealing a way of being thechurch that looks far more like
the upside down Kingdom Jesusdescribes than the metrics we
(01:42):
often Chase. Kate shares how herown congregation moved from
decline and discouragement intoa living, breathing outpost of
hope, one where weakness becamea doorway, neighbors became kin,
and faithfulness replacedsuccess as the defining metric.
Together, we talk about learningto see again, embracing
smallness, letting go ofoutcomes, and trusting that
(02:05):
resurrection always begins inplaces that feel like death. If
you've ever wondered whether thequiet, ordinary, hidden work
you're doing matters if you'vefelt the weight of leading,
serving or simply trying to befaithful when things aren't
working. This conversation is abreadcrumb of hope, because the
Kingdom is still breaking inoften, but we least expect it.
(02:29):
Here is my conversation withKate Murphy, Kate, welcome to
shifting culture. Excited tohave you on thank you for
joining me.
Kate Murphy (02:37):
Thank you so much for having me. It's going to be
so fun.
Joshua Johnson (02:41):
Yeah, well, we're going to talk about your
book, lost, hidden, small, whichis a fantastic read. It's a
great book. It's makes me wantto follow Jesus even more, and
that's, I think, a greattestament to what you've done,
what you've put in here youstart in your preface about a
moment when you felt like youwanted to give up. You're done,
(03:04):
but it was a moment that shiftedand changed, and you said it was
the beginning of something. Takeme into that moment for us to
get us started, and what wasabout to change.
Kate Murphy (03:17):
I start the book kind of at the trough of my own
journey. So I was about, Ithink, about 10 years in as a
pastor at that point, and threeyears into, the first time that
I had ever been given theopportunity to lead a
congregation, and thecongregation that I was leading
(03:40):
had really been in decline forthe past. If you measure decline
by the ways that we normally do,you know, budgets and buildings
and bottoms and seats, then wehad been in decline for, like,
30 years, and so I had come inwith just a lot of joy and
excitement to step into thisnext phase of my calling, and I
(04:03):
had a lot of relevantexperience. And so I really
believed I was coming in humbly,and believed that the Lord had
called me and prepared me, youknow, to be a catalyst for
renewal in the congregation. Andthe book kind of begins three
years in. And really having justrun as fast and as hard as I
(04:25):
could have run for three years,and used all of my gifting and
sort of left it all on thefield, and really discovering
that I was not a catalyst toanything, and that the church
was was not experiencingrevitalization and spiritual
growth in the way that we wereall longing for and and just
(04:47):
recognizing that like I didn'tWant to give up, but I knew I
was no longer operating underthe illusion that there was
anything I could do that wouldbring really resurrection into
the community. And so I justfelt like such a failure. And I
was so confused, because I hadso clearly experienced a call
(05:08):
from God to become a pastor. Andso then to kind of get into the
moment where it mattered most,and recognized I didn't have
what this community was longingfor, and I did know that God is
still in the business of makingchurches that make disciples,
and we just weren't. And so Ireally just was so. Despairing
(05:32):
at the depth of my failure, andthen it was in that moment of
just being like there's nothingelse I can do. And it was only
in that moment that I was sortof backed into the kind of
surrender where I could becomeaware of what God was doing and
follow follow the Lord, insteadof trying to lead people for
(05:54):
God, a
Joshua Johnson (05:55):
lot of people, I wouldn't say everybody, but a
lot of people get into thatposition where we come in
humbly. We think we're we'rehumble, full of joy that we're
going to let the Lord lead andguide in this area, but we put
it on our shoulders. And what isthat for i for you specifically,
(06:15):
and for pastors as they if theyput it all on their shoulders,
how does that feel? What's theweight of that to shepherd a
congregation throughrevitalization and wanting to
see growth and change and makingit all about what you do and how
you perform
Kate Murphy (06:36):
well, I think, in that time again, as a function
of my despair, which I look backnow and see was really holy and
really a gift. And I I hadsought out a spiritual director
in that time, and I remember Iused to come see her every
Friday and just, you know, feltlike I was drowning. Not to be
(06:58):
melodramatic, but I'll say thisjust in case someone else is
listening and feeling the sameway. This sounds so extreme, but
it's real. I remember used to Iwould be driving around the city
doing whatever, and just kind ofwondering, like, is it possible
that I'm already dead, and Idon't know it like I just really
was working so hard to treadwater, and I would go in every
(07:19):
Friday and just feel, you know,so overwhelmed and confused. And
I remember one day, I wassitting with my spiritual
director, and she looked at meand she said, God, misses you.
And she said, your wholeidentity and your whole
relationship with God is yourministry and what's happening in
(07:41):
this church, and that is not thelife that God has for you. And
it was sort of in that momentthat I remembered like I had a
life with God before I got acall to become a pastor, and I
experienced that, not at all asan accusation, but as kind of
like a lifeline, like I had sojoyfully thought like, Yes, I'm
(08:04):
satisfied with my ministry beingmy whole identity and my whole
relationship with God, and Iwouldn't have thought that I
could that there was anythingmore, until that just was so not
enough, and so so recognizingthat there was just something
deeply wrong, and that there wassomething more for me than
(08:25):
feeling like I was as good withGod as the last good thing that
had happened in The church, youknow that's just no way to live.
You can't, you can't live thatway. You certainly can
experience abundant life,especially if you're present
with people who really arestruggling. You have there has
to be a part of you that canremain just steady and present
(08:47):
and anchored in something otherthan your circumstances. And I
was totally angered. In mycircumstances,
Joshua Johnson (08:53):
a lot of that sometimes is a feeling of
blindness, not being able to seewhat God is doing. What is the
(09:46):
next step? Where should we go?
What's going on? You write inyour book about Luke, chapter
four, as Jesus announced hisministry, rolls out the scroll
of Isaiah, and he's he's talkingabout giving sight to the blind
as part of the good news and isfulfilled in your hearing. What
is it about this Good News ofgiving sight to the blind? How
can the blind see again, notjust physically in healing, but
(10:09):
in discernment and seeing? Whatis happening?
Kate Murphy (10:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's what looking
back. You know, that was whatthe whole experience was for me,
that this whole time that I feltlike just I was dying and being
crushed by everything. What wasreally being crushed were my
illusions, my illusions aboutwhat the church would look like,
my illusions about whatfaithfulness would look like and
(10:38):
feel like, and my illusionsabout what my role was in the
process, and so I reallybelieved that a pastor should be
sort of like a spiritual versionof the most successful CEO, you
know. So if a banker is going towork 80 hours a week and
sacrifice their family in orderto fulfill the mission of their
(11:02):
institution, then pastors shouldbe willing to work even harder
and drive themselves evenfurther and sacrifice even more
and just hold on and push evenfurther, because our mission
matters so much more than themission of making money and. So
I really, you know, I was doingthings for God, and I knew a lot
(11:22):
because I'd had the blessing of,you know, just being nurtured in
several churches and a seminaryeducation. But I just couldn't
see how the things I knew onpaper and the things that I
preached about on Sundays couldactually be walked out in my
approach and orientation towardspastoring. And, you know,
(11:42):
because I think I was anAmerican Christian in a church
full of mostly AmericanChristians, and we sort of all
had the same blind spot, whichwas, Oh, God wants us bigger.
God wants us, you know, moreimportant, more impressive to
the world with more resources.
And so when we found ourselvesin this community that just was
in no way impressive to anoutside American culture, and we
(12:07):
found ourselves called into thismission that we had no
reasonable expectation that wewould be successful at, it was
just a huge disorientation. Andit was only when you get that
desperate to go maybe myworldview is fundamentally
wrong. And I think about it inJohn I mean, I think about it in
Luke four, but I also thinkabout it sort of in John nine,
(12:28):
that it's the people who don'tknow they're sick and the people
who don't know they're blindthat can't recognize what God is
doing in their midst. And Ithink you know, God was being
tremendously faithful to me andto my community, by exposing all
of our idols, by smashing all ofour illusions, so that we could
begin to live in the truth thatlooked like death, but but
(12:50):
really was life. You know, whenthings are working for you, you
don't question your worldview.
Joshua Johnson (12:55):
How is it that you found life in things that
look like death. What? Whatshifted? What did you how did
you find life in death?
Kate Murphy (13:05):
We were walking through and the church I was
serving, we were veryintentionally trying to be open
to a transformation of the HolySpirit. So we knew that we had
three months of money left. Weknew we had a theology that
said, Hey, we're not making newdisciples, that we are in a
(13:26):
diverse community, and when wegather on Sunday mornings, we're
almost entirely white. Like weknew that things were not right.
What we didn't know was why, andwe were sort of showing up every
week, doing the things that wehad always done, because what
else are you going to do, right?
And so when you get to a pointwhere you really realize, like,
(13:46):
when I was in that moment, Ifelt like one of the things that
was our biggest liability wasthis huge pressure of not having
any money. And I just thought,like, how can we do this hard
work of reimagining what itmeans to be faithful when we
just have that constant pressureof, like, change or die, change
or die, change or die. Butlooking back, that pressure was
actually the greatest gift,because we just couldn't delude
(14:10):
ourselves into believing that wehad more time. You know, like
you you had to jump off the highdive. And so, you know, we were
willing to listen to voices thatwe normally wouldn't have been
willing to listen to. We wereready willing to try doing
things like one of the veryspecific things that we did that
we were a Presbyterian Church,and we still are, but we
(14:31):
worshiped in a very typicalPresbyterian way. So three hymns
from the hymnal, an organ, achoir, and those were very, you
know, sacred and meaningful waysfor us to encounter God. But we
knew in that moment that we weresurrounded by neighbors, many of
whom English was not their firstlanguage. We knew that people
who might start seeking God bylistening to Christian radio
(14:54):
needed to come into ourcongregation and literally
understand the words that wewere saying like if we were
singing about here I stand myEbenezer and a mighty fortress
and a bulwark. I mean, those arenot that's not language that
people use and and we knew that,hey, Jesus talked to people in
ways that they didn't need topass a vocabulary test first and
(15:16):
then understand. So it justmeant that as much as our sacred
ways were really working for us,we couldn't pretend that they
would work for our neighbors,and we really had to ask the
question, well, when we'reworshiping here, what? What is
it about? Is it about what wewant and what we prefer, or is
it about what God wants and Godprefers, and we did have the
(15:39):
sense of clarity that God wouldwant us to make the message
accessible to our neighbors,even if that wasn't our
preference. And we talked a lotabout, honestly, about pronouns
in that season, in terms of wewould talk about my church, and
really needed to go, okay, butit's not our church. It's God's
Church. And so when we'rethinking about what we should
(16:01):
do, our question shouldn't be,are we going to like it? Do we
enjoy it? Are we going to begood at it? Our question should
be, well, what do we think Godwould want? What do we think
would please the Lord? Do wethink that God on. Honestly
cares if we sing a song onSunday morning that we don't
like, if it means that ourneighbors can come and join in.
(16:23):
And we were really vulnerablebefore God, that we were trying
to be open to our neighbors, butwe knew our neighbors were going
to come if the Holy Spirit ledthem into that place, which is
not something that you wouldreasonably expect, because there
was nothing shiny, impressive orpotentially successful about the
(16:44):
church. And so when peoplestarted coming up coming, we
knew that they were followingthe Holy Spirit into that place,
and so we were really ready toreceive them as the answer to
prayer, instead of kind of atarm's length or with suspicion,
Joshua Johnson (17:05):
that paradigm to shift into looking at neighbors
neighborhood and actuallysaying, This is God's church.
What does he want to do here inthis neighborhood? Is such a
different shift than a lot ofpastors think about when it
comes to revitalization. How doI get this company of this
church to, you know, be smoothand operate smoothly, so that it
(17:30):
can can run smoothly. We likethat in America. Yeah.
Kate Murphy (17:35):
One other thing I knew walking in before I had my
own sort of spiritualtransformation, but I knew how
beautiful the neighborhood wassurrounding the church that we
were in a part of Charlottewhere I live that is very under
resourced, and it also has mostof the diversity in
neighborhoods in the whole city,like we were in a part of the
(17:57):
city where people lived inneighborhoods where they were
black and white, and, you know,Hispanic and immigrants from all
over the world living in thesame neighborhood. And I knew
walking in the door that man,that's the kingdom of heaven,
right? And then I had come fromanother church in inner city,
Boston, that had this amazingneighborhood outreach, and it
(18:18):
was this tiny, like, physicallytiny church that just did
outrageous things in theneighborhood, like run a summer
camp for 100 plus kids, and theywere in this tiny building that,
I mean, I always say it was heldtogether by spit and duct tape.
We did lunches all through thesummer, breakfast and lunches
for the kids and the wholebuilding. And this is a program
that has, you know, more than100 kids, so you factor in
(18:41):
staff, that's a lot of peoplethat building had two toilets,
not two bathrooms, two toilets,and it didn't have a garbage
disposal, and we would have to,like, pour the leftover ceiling
cereal down the toilets andflush them in order to, you
know, I mean, like, we, I justhad been part of this community
that had so been so beautifully,making it work in an urban
setting. And then I was at this,now, this church that was
(19:03):
planted by, you know, uppermiddle class, white Christians,
and then the neighborhood aroundit had changed, and there was
just much more economicdiversity and racial diversity.
And I knew walking in the doorthat God was going to have a
beautiful, vibrant outpost ofthe kingdom of God at the corner
(20:23):
of Sharon Amity and HarrisBoulevard. The question was, the
congregation who had called me,were they going to be the
congregation that built thebuilding for that church, or
were they going to be thatchurch? And I walked in the door
with kind of a lot of swaggerabout like, Oh, I know how to do
this, and then having so manyyears of just seeing a lot of
neighborhood outreach honestly,but not seeing the
(20:45):
transformation in the worshipingcommunity on Sunday mornings,
and that's when I realized,like, no, there's something
there's something deeper that weneed to figure out why we're not
connecting like heart to heart,To be able to worship God
together and not have one groupof Christians who served and
another group of Christians whomaybe were served but then
(21:06):
worshiped down the street,somewhere else or nowhere at
all.
Joshua Johnson (21:09):
Was there a shift in in thinking and posture
towards neighbors to make itlook more like kinship and more
like the kingdom of heaven, morelike, you know, every tribe,
tongue and nation together,usually what happens is, it's,
we're coming here to serve.
There's some paternalism that'sgoing on. It's really and what
is, what did mutuality start tolook like? And shifting towards
(21:32):
that,
Kate Murphy (21:36):
honestly, that started happening once the
congregation began to reallygrapple with if we're going to
be this church, this likerevelation, kind of church of
people from every nation andtongue, that means the culture,
our internal culture as achurch, is going to have to
change. And there were a lot ofpeople in the church who who
(22:00):
knew that was faithful. Therewas a smaller subset of that
group who felt like, I'm calledto be a part of that. So
honestly, I think for me as apastor, and I think probably a
lot of pastors feel this way,you feel like job number one is
to keep the community together,like keep the community you
have, and then grow it. And so,you know. When, when there comes
a point when people say, if yougo after this mission, I'm not
(22:23):
even saying it's wrong, but I'msaying it's not for me, and I'm
going somewhere else. And thatfelt like such a, I mean, a, I
loved those people, and so I didnot want them to leave. And then
B, I felt like such a failure asa pastor that I hadn't been able
to cast a vision in a way thatwould make people say, Yeah, I
want to be a part of this. Andhonestly, there were some other
(22:45):
Christians from othercommunities who who came
alongside me and sort of said,Hey, I need you to have eyes to
see that God might be pruninghere, which felt like terribly
callous to me, I had myspiritual director said, Hey,
Kate, just because you arecalled to this mission doesn't
mean that everyone is and justbecause people are leaving the
(23:09):
church, that does not mean theyare unfaithful. They can be
called to something else, andthat's not bad or wrong, right?
She was sort of saying likethey're not getting thrown off a
cliff, they're going to anothercongregation, and it really
helped me understand that, youknow, our job, ultimately, is
not to be loyal to one another,but to be as faithful as we can
be to Jesus. And sometimes, youknow, like Paul and Barnabas,
(23:31):
they split apart for a time,right? That if you're called to
something, that doesn't meanthat your neighbor is also
called to it. So once thecommunity really experienced
this big disruption and loss. Analready small church got even
smaller. You know, from thatplace of weakness, then when
your neighbors walk in the door,you're ready to receive them in
(23:51):
a different way. You and theyare coming into a space not
like, Oh, I'm I'm in theminority, but like I'm coming
into the space knowing that myvalue is is recognized here, and
people have been preparing forme in this space. But, I mean,
we have experienced resurrectionat the Grove, which was, you
(24:14):
know, a movement of God's power,not anybody else's. But you
don't get resurrection until yougo through death. And there was
a lot of dying first in that youknow, people who loved and
walked together after Christ fora long time, like the paths
diverged, and that was really,really painful.
Joshua Johnson (24:33):
There's a lot of people who are like, Hey, I just
want to go from glory to glory.
I don't want to see that deathto actually bring about some
resurrection and new life. Sohow did like this weakness and
being in a weak spot start tohelp you see Jesus's teachings,
his parables, what he's talkingabout in a new light?
Kate Murphy (24:56):
Well, I think all along the way, you know, as as
next steps on the path becameclear, I kept thinking, this is
so painful and this is so hard,like, surely God wouldn't ask
this of me. But then, you know,I was living my life, you know,
prepping sermons and preppingBible studies. So I just kept
encountering, like, the actualscriptures and realizing, like,
(25:19):
actually, you know, the peopleof faith actually walked through
a lot of loss and a lot ofhardship, and Jesus was very
clear about sacrifice. Andsometimes, you know, we get this
idea, I think, by pastors whoare marketing things to us, that
if we can only be faithful,everything's going to go our
(25:39):
way, and so to be able torecover the sense of like God is
good and God is giving us a giftof abundant life. But sometimes
we really are called to posturesof faith and actions of faith
that are sacrificial, that arehard. We were just preaching on
Jacob, wrestling with the angelthis past Sunday, and just
(26:01):
saying, hey, sometimes God showsup to wrestle with you, and that
is exhausting, and it's not fun.
And you know, if we expect thatGod always shows up like a cup
of tea, and, you know, a herosaving the day and giving us
exactly what we want. We'regoing to miss it when God
actually shows up to wrestlewith us and say, Hey, you are
(26:22):
determined to go this way, and Iam determined that you will go
that way, and just to say, yeah,sometimes we're called to do
things that do not, you know,suit our preferences, and that
can be faithful also. And sothat really helped, like, just
having this familiarity with thebiblical texts and being like,
you know, this thing that we'redoing doesn't look impressive to
(26:45):
the denominational structure,but Jesus didn't look impressive
to the denominational structure.
Or, you know, we're called intorelationship with this person,
and it doesn't look like they'regoing to have a promising
outcome. But Jesus showed up andwas in relationship with people
who, you know, being inrelationship with them cost him
(27:06):
respect in the eyes of, youknow, the people who were
honored in their days. And therewas this one older woman in the
congregation, and you know, shelost way more than I did because
she lost friends. I. She'draised her children with and
buried her parents with, andthey were leaving, and she was
staying, and she was not reallypersonally in favor of any of
(27:27):
the changes that we were making.
But she said, as she was talkingto people, she just kept saying,
I keep looking at this andthinking, what about this?
Displeases the Lord. Let me findone thing that we are trying to
do that displeases Jesus, and Ican't. And I find a lot of
things. Her name is Kay, shesaid, I find a lot of things
that displease Kay, but I can'tfind one thing that displeases
(27:50):
Jesus. So I have to keep walkingin this way. And it was that
sort of eyes being opened, likebeing given to sight that
everything that looks goodisn't, and everything that seems
like it's going to lead to lifedoesn't, and sometimes the
things that you think for sureare going to kill you are
actually the things that becomea pathway to a life that is just
(28:12):
more beautiful and rich than youever had the capacity to imagine
Joshua Johnson (28:19):
you use the motif lost, hidden and small in
your book. What do each of thosemean for you? And why do you
think Jesus kept on using thesethings over and over again?
Kate Murphy (28:32):
We often think that the kingdom of God is going to
look like whatever is big andpowerful and shiny and
celebrated in our culture, wethink like, wow, that looks
excellent to us. So God must bein it. And when Jesus taught
about the Kingdom of God, thoseare not any of the adjectives
that he used. And so in my ownjourney, you know, again,
(28:56):
starting with the, you know,sort of spiritual collapse at
the very beginning of the book,I recognized that even though I
had been prepared and trainedaccording to the denomination,
and I had a lot of the practicalskills and competencies that
pastors needed and that werevaluable, that there were things
I did not know and and things Idid not see things that had been
(29:20):
lost, and that, you know, unlikethe the framing that I grew up
with, which is like the lost,are those people over there who
don't know Jesus, let's go savethem. When Jesus teaches
parables about the lost, theseare all valuable things that
belong, that have been separatedfrom their rightful place,
(29:41):
right? So the sheep, the lostsheep, belongs in the flock, and
the lost coin is part of thetreasure, and the lost son is
part of the family. And sorecognizing that the person who
had lost something was me, wasus, and we needed to go seeking
the parts of the Jesusrevelation that we had allowed,
you know, the culture to blindus to and steal us hidden. You
(30:06):
know, the Bible is very clearthat God is both. There's this
paradox at the heart of therevelation that God is, you
know, incarnate, and that Godcomes to us and there's the
Bible is full of Revelation. Andalso, the Bible is very clear
that God is also hidden, thatthere are times that people ask
for God's name and God says, no,like, can I see you? And God
(30:27):
says, No. People do see God, andthey go, woe is me, I'm gonna
die. So there's just thistension that the Bible, the
Bible, never tries to resolve,that there is part of God that
is a mystery. And if you insiston having a faith that every
little detail makes sense toyou, what you really have is
(30:48):
idol worshiping and that it's,you know, seeking. You know,
Jesus says seek, right? Andlike, how many of us who think
of ourselves as Christiansreally are seeking the Lord.
We're not because we think wealready found him. So really
understanding that there wereparts of God that were still to
be discovered and and seekingGod, you know, in the places
(31:13):
where I assure that God wasn'tlike in my failures, in
weakness, in a practice ofrepentance. And then, as the
pastor of a small church,existing in a culture where
anything that's good is big, tosort of have to say, Okay, wait
a minute, where does my disgustfor smallness come from? It
(31:34):
doesn't come from Jesus. Andwhen I can only see God in what
is big, then I am literallymissing the revelation of who
Jesus is, who came, you know,from this small family, who was
born in this small town, whonever amassed a consistent,
large following. You know that,and you know, we know that the
(31:57):
the kingdom of God, defies thecultures of the world. And what
is more, in contrast to thedominant cultures of the world,
than an expectation that thereis something sacred and holy and
things that are small
Joshua Johnson (32:13):
so many people in revitalization are something
they want the formula and you'recalling. At idolatry, if we're
following the formula to findGod. Also, we like to measure
success. So we measure, usually,we measure it by, you know, how
many people are attending aservice, how much money you have
in the bank account, whateverthe measurement is, as you've
(32:37):
gone through this transformationand seeing Jesus in the in the
lost, in the hidden, in thesmall what does success look
like in the kingdom? What doessuccess look like for a
congregation that is trying tofaithfully follow Jesus?
Kate Murphy (32:53):
I would say three things. One thing that's helped
me so much is substituting theword success for faithfulness,
because I think, you know, it'sjust natural, especially if
you're a North AmericanChristian, that you just want to
be successful, and you think,Well, God's going to make me
successful. And I think thatthat word will lead you into
(33:13):
dangerous places. But if youreplace the word success for
faithful, then you're just opento a lot more. Because we know
that sometimes faithfulnesslooks like, Hey, you win the
battle. You know, the oil runsover and over and over and fills
all the jars and and sometimesfaithfulness looks like, you
(33:34):
know, Shadrach, Meshach andAbednego being like, I know God
can save us, but even if hedoesn't, you know we're not
bowing down to you. So just kindof knowing that all options are
on the table. And sometimes, youknow, the center of our faith is
across. And so sometimes failureand loss are very much the
results of faithfulness. And Ithink when we pursue success,
then it's really easy, you know,with with all the genuineness in
(33:57):
our hearts in the world, to justgo, Well, I God could only be
calling me to the options thatlook like they are going to lead
to success. And so we rulecertain things out because we
know that's going to lead todanger and loss and risk. So
faithfulness, really, that thathas helped a lot. And then the
other thing I would say is wehave experienced a lot of growth
(34:19):
at the Grove, and we haveexperienced growth and probably
in numbers. In our budget, we'renot building anything, but we
are rehabbing our building forthe first time in a long time.
So I want to be like, I want tosay two things at the same time
that can seem like they can'tboth be true, which is like, I
think it is faithful to want tosee growth in the kingdom of
(34:44):
God, to say, I want people toknow Jesus. I want us to be able
to serve even more of ourneighbors. Like growth in and of
itself, it is a kingdom value.
And then Jesus says, like, I'mthe vine and you are the
branches. And apart from me, youcan do nothing, but with me,
you'll bear much fruit. So wehave seen growth, but it came
when we were willing to dothings that looked like they
(35:05):
would lead to death, and it camewhen we were willing to do
things that like didn't suit ourpersonal preferences. And so,
you know, I think that's thechallenge, is to understand
that, like when God makes growthhappen, God does it in such a
(35:26):
way that the people involvedknow for sure that they're not
the ones who made it happen,right? So Gideon has this mighty
army, and then God sends twothirds of it home, because he
doesn't want the people to feelproud that they got it done for
him. They want. He wants thepeople to know that, you know,
this tiny, little ragtag bunchwill prevail because they're
(35:46):
filled with the power of God.
And so I think it's aboutunderstanding. Or for me, what
I've discovered is knowing, alot of times the thing that
saves you is not the thing thatyou expect will save you one
quick little story, and it's notin the book, but we had a
neighbor who has since died, butlived within walking distance of
(36:09):
the church, and he had lived ahard life, and he was a hard guy
to love, and he was justteetering on the edge of
Homelessness and in activeaddiction, and was just not
like, it was not fun to spendtime with him, and he used to
call me and just complain abouteverything like, and he had my
(36:30):
cell phone number, and I want tobe available to people, and he
was part of the church, but justlike, nothing was good enough.
And, you know, he was very hard.
And I really felt, I mean, I Ijust felt compelled that I had
to listen to him with love. ButI just resented so much that
this guy was just always pilingon at a time when everything was
(36:52):
hard and and one thing he wouldalways say is like, Well, when I
die, I'm going to leave thechurch a lot of money. And I
just thought, like, that's just,and I would just always say,
like, that's not, you know, wedon't want your money. Like, we
just want to be in communitywith you. We want to love you
and be loved by you. Like, it'snot about that. And, you know,
(37:13):
and I, I really knew i. Likethat was absolutely not going to
happen, but that it was faithfulto be loving to him and to
include him honestly, when hispresence in the community could
have been a deterrent for otherpeople, right? Because he was
not he was not well, and he wasnot kind, but he was desperate
for belonging, and then he justkind of disappeared. And then a
(37:34):
couple years ago, we werecontacted by a lawyer.
Apparently, this guy really didhave a lot of money, and really
did write a write a will thatleft a ton of money to the
Grove, because even in all ofhis brokenness, even in his
process, he was so grateful thatpeople at the grove tried to
(37:58):
love him, and he remembered it.
And I just think, like, it'ssuch an example of like you do
something because you just can'tshake loose, that this is what
Jesus would demand of you. Andyou know, it's faithful, even
though you don't understand why.
I mean, it wasn't because heleft us money that that was the
(38:18):
right thing to do. But I dothink it's important to
recognize that like when Godcalls us to live in a certain
way, it has benefits andblessings that we never could
have anticipated, because it'snot the way of the world, it's
the way of the kingdom and thekingdom. Think God works
differently than this place?
Joshua Johnson (38:36):
Yeah, it does.
So what does the growth looklike? What's the community like
now? How are people beingdisciples of Jesus together?
What's this community look like?
Kate Murphy (38:50):
We have experienced miraculous growth now. We are
still a small church, but we youknow, when I came, we were maybe
45 on a Sunday morning, it wasin an almost entirely white
congregation. We had one womanwho was from the Congo who
worshiped with us regularly. Thecongregation's average age was
(39:11):
65 now on a Sunday morning, thechurch is broadly speaking, half
Caucasian, half AfricanAmerican, some other folks
sprinkled in as well. This pastSunday, we called the children
up. And, I mean, it's just arandom Sunday in October, it's
not always like this, but we hadhad a lock in at the church the
night before and and there werelike 40 kids up front, and we
(39:34):
were, again, like a smallchurch. So, you know, because
the church has pivoted so hardto non transactionally serving
the neighborhood. We have a freeafter school program and summer
camp. And you know, you servepeople for a long time, and then
they start wondering about,like, why do you do this? And
(39:56):
maybe sometimes people will bepart of the after school program
for three or four years beforethey will accept an invitation
to come up on a Sunday morning.
Like it takes a long time tobuild trust with people for good
reasons, but I think you knowwhat it looks like is seeing
that God is able to build thekingdom of God all by himself,
(40:18):
as you know, as the saying goes,and that it's our job to be
faithful and to let faithfulnessto God be its own reward, and
let go of outcomes. And then,you know, I just think God
delights in showing himself tobe faithful. And we find a lot
(40:38):
of people who you know, arelooking for a community that is
more than it appears. That, youknow, they'll see peeling paint,
and they won't be turned off bythat. They'll see like, wow,
here's a church that cares moreabout running two Vacation Bible
schools a year than about makingsure that the inside of their
building looks pristine. And,you know, I think the gospel is
(41:00):
beautiful, and when you live bygospel values, it is attractive
to people. And one of the thingsyou know, community at the grove
is different than in otherchurches, because there's so
much cultural difference thatthere isn't a lot of superficial
connection, it takes time tobuild trust and build
(41:21):
friendships. Really, the onlything we have in common is
Jesus, but that means when thoserelationships are built, they're
deep and they're rich andthey're faithful, and it's worth
it, and we talk a lot aboutlike, if you love church, then
the grove might be a place thatdisappoints you because it
doesn't have things that maybeyou had in other places. It
(41:42):
doesn't worship in the way thatyou have worshiped before. It
doesn't, you know, function insome of the same ways that
churches function. But if youare seeking Jesus, then the
Grove is a real jesusy place,because there's just nothing
else that holds us together, andthat is both really costly and
such a source of life and grace,and we sort of live every day. I
(42:07):
mean, we're still aninstitutionally weak church, not
as much as we were, but we arelike, if God doesn't provide for
us, that. We will not be heremuch longer, but if God is going
to continue to provide then whenthere are, you know, mountains
and Giants in front of us, youjust can sort of have that piece
(42:29):
of past, this understanding ofsaying like God still does
impossible things, nothing isimpossible with God. And we're
going to find that out here, dayby day, and that just brings an
abundance that I don't think youfind in the churches that
typically seem like, you know,with with all the money and all
(42:49):
the people and all the, youknow, because that can become a
burden, whereas, like, we'rereally free.
Joshua Johnson (43:00):
It reminds me of like yeast in the dough. The
kingdom of God is like yeast inthe dough, and that is like a
miracle. You're like, how isthis little thing going to rise
and get bigger and grow intothis beautiful loaf of bread? So
what is, then, the role of thekingdom of God, with the
(43:21):
congregation, with the churchand the neighborhood. What does
it look like to be yeast in
Kate Murphy (43:28):
the neighborhood? I mean, I think there are a lot of
practical things that we do. Wereally have a culture that we
want to interact with ourneighborhood in completely non
transactional ways. So like,instead of a yard give a yard
sale, we have a yard give. Like,we just gather our stuff and
then invite people in and say,Take whatever you want. And, you
(43:49):
know, there's no donation boxanywhere. We have a community
meal once a month where anybodycan come in and eat. And again,
there's no donation box, andthere's no program, there's no
preaching. There's it's justlike, come and have a meal with
us. So we do not, we don't rentour space at all. We have
partnerships with otherministries where we say, like,
(44:11):
we want to give you, you know,we want to give you space here
so that we can labor in thisvineyard together. And so I
think that really, it reallychanges the nature of our
relationships, that they're notin any way characterized by an
exchange of money. And I thinkin the neighborhood, to be able
(44:31):
to say, Look, your kids can cometo our spring break Vacation
Bible School. You don't have tobe a member of this church. You
don't have to make a donationlike you're welcome here, and
you might come in and and peopledo, like they go to the mega
church up the street, but theycome to Vacation Bible School
with us twice a year, and that'sfaithful for us, you know. And I
(44:54):
think also just recognizingthat, like, if we are who we
think God is calling us to be.
It makes sense that it'll take awhile for people to see it right
and and that not everyone willwant it in that we need to be
not sort of having some sort ofsense of spiritual superiority,
but just this great sense ofdeliverance that, like God has,
(45:14):
like led us, sometimes kickingand screaming, to this life of
freedom and abundance, and we'reso happy to share it with
anybody. And also, you know,we're not nobody owes us
anything like everything we'redoing, we're doing for Jesus.
And so however people responseresponded, that's just an
overflow. And you know, we talka lot in the community among
(45:37):
ourselves about the way we dothings matter. So like, if we
have a community meal, but ifsome teenager comes up and asks
for seconds before everyone hasfirst and somebody behind the
line makes that young personfeel stupid or rejected, then
then we've just, like, really,we've really lost, because the
(45:59):
way we do things matters morethan what we do. And I think a
lot of times, I think we getthat out of a place of real
sincerity, because we're sodetermined to do things
perfectly and excellently forJesus, and we just have so much
tension that it spills over intoour relationships with other
people, and just being able tosay, you know, this is a
community where you are allowedto fail, like we are allowed to
(46:21):
try something, and if it doesn'twork, like that is called being
human, right? And so it justcreates so much more space for
people to have ease and relaxand feeling like God really is
alive and at work in the world,and we can trust God. And one
time a couple years ago, we doonline giving and and somebody
(46:45):
forgot to, like, set it so thatwe deposit in our bank account.
And so it was, like, a monthbefore the end of the school
year, the the calendar year, andthe treasurer called me in a
panic, and he was like, Pastor,Kate, we're $50,000 short. And I
was like, Well, okay, like, Imean, that doesn't surprise me.
Of course we can be $50,000short, like, like, we're gonna
(47:07):
pray, we're gonna ask the Lordfor help. Like, if we're $50,000
short, then we'll just have to,like, cut our budget. Like, you
know what? Like, we're. I don'thave $50,000 so like, either
God's gonna help us or, youknow, God's gonna be faithful to
us in reduced circumstances, buteither way, I think none of us
(47:27):
really feel like snails with thechurch on our backs, right, like
we're partnering with God insomething. And so whatever
happens, God can still be goodto us, and God will still be
good to us. And so we can reallylearn to walk trusting in God,
even when our understandingwould reasonably lead us to
(47:47):
panic.
Joshua Johnson (47:50):
So good. What is sustaining you right now, in
your in your spiritual life,what's sustaining you?
Kate Murphy (47:56):
I am working really deliberately on a regular daily
office of pausing to pray threetimes a day. I want to be very
clear that I'm very bad at it,because I have a monkey brain
and it's really hard to sort ofstop doing things for God, to be
(48:21):
with God. But I know that mylife comes from that. I know
that sustaining me, even thoughit's hard, and I certainly, you
know, rarely experience like theangels singing when I do it,
it's just a matter of, you know,like Eugene Peterson, a long
obedience in the same direction,and just sort of knowing that
(48:43):
just because something doesn'tfeel like a dopamine hit, that
doesn't mean it isn't good forme and good to me. So that is
sustaining me. My friendshipsare sustaining me. Like, I think
that a healthy body of Christ aslike a friendship factory. And
(49:03):
so I just because of my life inthe grove, I just have so many
friends in my life right now.
And so just people who I enjoybeing with, that I enjoy being
church with, people that I feellike I don't have to hide and
pretend, that I don't have topretend that I work 90 hours a
(49:24):
week for the grove and neverhave a moment you know, like the
people who see me as you know, areal person with with gifts and
also with weaknesses and Love meanyway, and that is saving my
life, that I don't know whatwill happen, and I can't control
the future, but I don't think Iwill have to walk it alone. I
(49:45):
know that God will be with me,but I am so grateful as God with
flesh, like also having thesepeople who are with me that I'm
not alone. So that's and then Ireally experienced probably my
most intimate connections withGod through the study of
Scripture. And so I'm sothankful and grateful to have a
job that just continually sendsme to the word, and I'm
(50:09):
preparing, you know, sermon or aBible study or something, that
I'm just have the gift of beingenriched in God's word for my
actual J, O, B, and that's such,such a blessing, and that's
really sustaining me, becauseit's this counterweight to
everything that I see on thenews, and just the sense of
like, okay, this can happen.
(50:32):
This has happened before. Godhas shown us how to be faithful,
and we can take heart, becauseJesus has overcome the world.
Joshua Johnson (50:41):
A couple quick questions I have at the end
here. One, if you go back toyour 21 year old self, what
advice would you give?
Kate Murphy (50:48):
I don't know if it would be advice. I think I would
tell my 21 year old self that Iwas really okay, that my
worthiness truly was not atstake, and that God really was
going to be good to meregardless of how faithful I
(51:12):
was. Like, just like, relax, thefuture is not at stake. God
really is a good shepherd.
Joshua Johnson (51:20):
So good anything you've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend.
Kate Murphy (51:24):
There's a another pastor I know of, Daniel
walpart, I think is how you sayhis name, and he has written a
book called Living inward,looking outward. Inward, outward
is in the title, but it's allabout the connection between
contemplative prayer andneighbor, love and social
action. You know, so often wefeel like you're you're either
(51:47):
one kind of Christian or theother, and so just this sense of
how being deeply, deeplyimmersed in the kingdom of God
through contemplative practiceswon't pull you away from
engaging with the world, butwill show you how to engage even
more deeply with the world. Somereading that, and then Sarah
(52:08):
bessie's field notes. I reallyappreciate Sarah Bessie, and
appreciate that particular book.
Joshua Johnson (52:14):
It was my book of the year last year. It was,
it Okay, yeah. It's a fantastic.
Book. I love it. So, yeah, itwas really, really good. Kate,
this has been fantastic. Lost,hidden small is out available
anywhere books are sold. Isthere anywhere you'd like to
point people to to get the book?
Or how could they connect withyou and what you're doing?
Kate Murphy (52:34):
I would love for people to get the book anywhere
they can get it. I'm it's such adream for me that people would
have this book. It is what I Ilike God was so faithful to me
through my process, but it wouldhave been so faithful to me to
have a witness like this, thatthat even though it felt like
(52:57):
everything was dying and goingwrong, there was still hope. So
I just really hope that peoplewill get it. And I really would
love to, would love to interactwith people about the book. The
our church website has my emailaddress on it, Pastor Kate at
the Grove, charlotte.org and Iwould love to interact about it.
I am ridiculously in love withlocal church, like real
(53:22):
community, where people can walkin and know and be known. And I
I just, I agree with BillHybels, I think the local church
is the hope of the world. And Ireally want this book to be like
a breadcrumb of hope to peoplewho are trying to figure out how
to continue to sustain anoutpost of the kingdom of God in
(53:47):
their neighborhood, that thatwhat you're doing matters, that
that goodness lies ahead of youand that you already have what
you need to be faithful in thisseason.
Joshua Johnson (53:57):
Well, that was a beautiful summation, and you
said it better than I could. SoKate, thank you for this
conversation. I really, reallyenjoyed it, and I just pray
people would find find hope, andthose little breadcrumbs of hope
in this conversation, in thebook and in the words of Jesus.
(54:17):
And as Jesus can sustain you. Hecould sustain the people
listening, and we could see abeautiful, beautiful outpost of
the kingdom where you are. Sothank you. It was fantastic.
Kate Murphy (54:29):
Amen. Thank you.
Thank you. You. You.
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