December 19, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode, I’m joined by theologian and storyteller Leonard Sweet for a deep conversation on the imagination of Jesus and why imagination is central to faith, discipleship, and what it means to be human. We talk about how Jesus doesn’t simply explain reality but reshapes it through story and metaphor, and why Jubilee sits at the heart of his vision for the world. We also explore what it means to move beyond fear-based, information-driven faith toward a life where Christ is formed in us. This conversation is an invitation to move from knowing about God to truly knowing God, and to live with an imagination shaped by goodness, beauty, and truth.
Leonard Sweet is one of the most prolific Christian authors in the world today, with over 70 books to his name—and a dozen more on the way–and 2000 published sermons. A theologian of imagination, a semiotician of Bible and culture, and a prophetic voice to the church, Sweet defies easy categorization. His works span genres and generations, challenging readers to see the world—and the gospel—with fresh eyes. While others chase bestseller lists, Sweet charts a different path: one defined not by sales, but by depth, creativity, and theological daring.
Len's Book:
Jesus: Maker, Mender, Minder, Master
Len's Recommendation:
They Flew: A History of the Impossible
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leonard Sweet (00:31):
The whole story of the Bible is God is calling
us out of our hiding places tocome into the light of God's
presence and to enter into thatrelationship, that true knowing
God that we were afraid of you.
It.
Joshua Johnson (01:00):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson, in this
episode, I'm joined by Leonardsweet for a rich and wide
ranging conversation on theimagination of Jesus and why
imagination is not optional tofaith, but essential to what it
(01:22):
means to be human. We explorehow Jesus doesn't simply explain
reality, but creates a way ofliving in the world through
story, metaphor and beauty,rather than offering abstract
ideas or religious systems,Jesus invites us into a
transformed imagination thatreshapes how we see God
ourselves and the world. Lenchallenges the church to recover
(01:44):
its creative vocation, to movebeyond fear based and
information driven faith and torediscover discipleship as
Christ forming in us. We talkabout Jubilee as the heart of
Jesus' vision, the healing andmending of the world and what it
means to live in Christ in a waythat is embodied, relational and
alive. This conversation invitesus to move from knowing about
(02:07):
God to truly knowing God, and toinhabit a faith marked by
goodness, beauty and truth in anage desperate for all three. So
join us. Here is my conversationwith Leonard. Sweet Lynn,
welcome to shifting culture. Sohonored and thankful that you're
on so
Leonard Sweet (02:25):
thanks for joining me. Hey, great to be
with you, Joshua. I'm going to
Joshua Johnson (02:29):
start with a little bit of a preamble. When
we're talking about imaginationtoday, yeah, I think that in the
story of God, He is Creator. Sohe imagines us. He imagines this
world. He creates. We, ashumans, are made in the image of
God, and so we also can create.
We're co creators with him as wecreate in the garden. You move
(02:52):
this as the story progresses, wecome into Jesus. Jesus, the
incarnation of Jesus, comes onthe scene. You talk about how
Jesus's imagination is reallycrucial and important for us to
understand that he doesn't justexplain reality. He creates
reality lived in why is theimagination of Jesus so
(03:15):
important?
Leonard Sweet (03:19):
Yeah, that's the ultimate question of the whole
book. And what does it mean?
You've set it up perfectly,although I would argue a little
bit with your co creatorlanguage. I don't really like
that, because I'm not coanything with God. You know what
I mean? I'm a and Tolkiensuggested the language of sub
creator. And so I really likethat. I'm a I continue God's
(03:42):
creativity. I'm not, if the oldbumper sticker, if God, you're
co pilot, somebody's in thewrong seat. And so I'm not a co
anything with God. I'm I'm a subcreator. I continue God's
creativity. In other words, thewhole thing about the book is,
what does it mean for us tocontinue to live out of the
(04:03):
imagination of God and tocontinue the imagination of
Jesus, who revealed God'simagination in his own life? I
also wrote a whole book on hisone little distinction, Joshua,
that is really so important.
It's called Jesus human. And hisfavorite description for himself
is son of man. But that's areally bad translation. It
(04:23):
really should be the human one.
And Jesus came to show us how tobe human. He's the last Adam
that did what the first Adamcouldn't do. The essence of the
first Adam, if you look at thecreation story, our Genesis
story is that you can't be humanwithout the divine, the divine,
and this is the paradox. TheDivine is what makes us human.
(04:44):
This is where I argue with some,with a lot of people out there
included they including DavidBentley Hart, who has this you
are God's book. No, the divinedoesn't make us God. The Divine
makes us human. That's theuniqueness. So to say to
somebody's only human, are youkidding me? We were created a
(05:06):
little lower than God. It's notthe angels, the angels. That's a
bad translation, a little lowerthan Elohim. So we were created
a little lower than we are abovethe angel. So God created us
with this imagination that whatit means to be created in God's
image. And so we continue lit tolive out of that imagination.
(05:26):
And for me, the church is one.
The least. I mean, who shouldknow the Creator better than the
church? And we're that's ourspecialty, is to know the
Creator. What does the Creatordo? Create? Where's the least
creative place you expect thatyou find in the culture is the
church, you know. So we'rebastions of boredom. We ought to
(05:50):
be bursting with energy,creativity, imagination. So it
makes you wonder whether wereally know the Creator at all
or well enough at all. So tolive out of the Jesus
imagination is to live out ofthis creativity and imagination
that our Creator gives us, andit's it's the divine spark in us
(06:10):
to let that grow to let that beinspired. Inspiration, the
Inspire it that spirit. Sothat's the whole purpose of the
book is to really look atimagination, which I think will
be the cultural currency of thefuture in an AI age, the one
thing that AI cannot reproduceis imagination. And so this will
(06:33):
be our major distinction betweenthe world of AI and the world of
the human.
Joshua Johnson (06:40):
So how do you think then imagination and
Jesus's imagination then createdreality that it bridges heaven
and earth. It bridges the actuallike, Hey, this is the facts
that AI will give us to in thisis where we're headed in this
story of God and man.
Leonard Sweet (07:00):
Well, the key to imagination is, is metaphor, and
this is what the church is soanother thing the church is so
bereft of Joshua is, is is theability to communicate a
metaphor, and this is one of thegreatest discoveries. First 25
years of my life, we lived outof we explored outer space. We
(07:21):
went to the moon. We did allthis stuff. The last 25 years,
30 years, it's been aboutexploring inner space, and the
ultimate in inner spaces, we'vebeen mapping the micro circuitry
of the brain. This is calledcognitive science, cognitive
studies, psycho, neuro,linguistics, whatever you want
to call it. And the biggestdiscovery so far of cognitive
(07:44):
science is that your mind, andmy mind, the mind, the human
mind, is not made of words. It'sreally the last thing that the
mind comes up with, that thehuman mind is made of metaphors.
Your mind, your brain, thinks inmetaphors, and then those
metaphors turn into narratives.
And at the end of a longprocess, you get words, but
(08:08):
metaphors, narratives are theway in which the human mind
thinks, and you prove it everytime you sleep. You don't sleep,
you don't dream in words. Youdream in stories built on a
metaphor. You'll never have adream of you reading a book,
because words are not a part ofhow your brain thinks. And since
the Protestant Reformation,we've been all about words,
(08:32):
points, propositions, all thatstuff. But we're now back to the
Jesus imagination, which isJesus. His imagination flowed
through metaphors andnarratives. He did not say, let
me give you these seven habitsof highly effective
discipleship. Write these down.
(08:52):
He goes, the kingdom of heavenis like. And then after the
light came a metaphor, lostcoin, around which he he he kind
of wove a little narrative, andthen he even mixed metaphors,
lost coin, lost sheep, lost son.
I mean, the thing that we werenever told to do, Jesus did all
the time, mixes metaphors. Nowthe mixing of the metaphors was
(09:15):
around a thread which was lost,lost. But the point is the Jesus
imagination, if you if you lookat how he imagined the world, it
was all through. It was ametaphor. Metaphor is
metamorphosis. In my preaching,I don't exegete words, I execute
images, exegete metaphors. Andinstead of leaving people with
(09:36):
points, you leave them with ametaphor. And these metaphors
are healing. I mean, you evengot a form of therapy now,
psychotherapy, which is justnarrative therapy, you just give
people new stories, newmetaphors to live by. That's the
whole healing. And so he, heheals the world. He heals
people. He he creates a wholenew world. Gapes a whole new
(09:58):
world. How you have heard itsaid, but I say, and then comes,
what? Not a new doctrine or anew point or a new word, it
comes. It's a new metaphor and astory. And so it's out of this
storied imagination of Jesus andHis, his well Storied Life, if
you will, that we are called to,to live out of the Jesus story
(10:22):
and the Jesus metaphors.
Joshua Johnson (10:25):
How does he do that? So for for us, he, he kind
of names reality. You. You haveheard it said so he names what
people believe is the story thatwe are living in. And then he
moves into giving us animagination for a new story, a
story that this is like, what isactual reality underneath our
(10:46):
perceived look at the worldexactly like when he comes on on
the scene and he pronounces likethis Jubilee passage from
Isaiah. What is he trying to saythat's different than what
people are living in at themoment?
Leonard Sweet (11:02):
Well, the big thing is he's announcing himself
as Jubilee. Jesus is Jubilee. Infact, I use Jubilee increasingly
rather than kingdom, because ifyou look at his inaugural
sermon, he's got five, you know,themes, you know, I've come and
his last one is, I am the, youknow, to the day of the Lord's
appointing the time. And that'sthe, that's the Shibboleth for
(11:26):
Jubilee. And Jubilee is wheneverything starts over again.
You begin new. All the prisonsare open, the debts are
forgiven, the the land goesfallow so that it can replenish
and heal. And so he's actuallyannouncing himself as Jubilee,
(11:46):
and and he becomes Jesus,becomes himself Jubilee. And
that's, that's what really, insome ways, what got him killed
was that he by saying he'sJubilee, saying he's the
Messiah, he's the red heifer. Imean, all that goes with that
understanding of Jubilee. So,yeah, I mean, it's a, it was a
(12:07):
radical notion. But to to livein Him and to live in Christ.
And this is, for me, the keything here is that discipleship
formation is really Christformation. What does it mean for
Christ to form in us? I wrote abunch of books with Frank Viola,
(12:27):
who and I disagree about mostthings, but we agreed on Jesus
because we found out that. So wesaid, let's show the church that
people that disagree about mostthings can, if they agree on
Jesus, can write some bookstogether. So we did. But the key
was we both what came to thisawakening that it was that I
know there's a Colossians two,but I can't get there, because I
(12:48):
can't get past Colossians. One,the secret that has been kept
hidden has now been revealed.
Christ in you the hope of glory.
What does it mean that we are tolive in Christ, and Christ is to
live in us, that we are to sharehis resurrection life. I mean
that Jesus is alive. How is healive? Well, he lives, you know,
(13:10):
the old song he lives. I know Helives because he lives in in me.
And what does it mean to letChrist so even a metaphor. I
mean, I'm not a big leadershipguy, because I'm all about
followership. What does it meanto follow Jesus? But even that
Joshua has some distance to it.
But we're talking aboutsomething more, that no Christ
wants to live His resurrectionlife in and through us. So you
(13:34):
find in Christ this language. InChrist 100 over 100 times in
Paul's writings, just what doesit mean to live in Christ, and
He Himself in as much you did onthe least of these you did it to
me. I mean, so this constantsharing in his his life. So it's
all for me about and that'sreally what the word Christian
(13:56):
means, a little Christ. Whatdoes it mean for us to become
little Christ? It doesn't meanwe become Christ. There's only
one Christ, but we becomethere's only one big J We're all
little Jays. You know, oneChrist, but we're to become
little. Christ, and so he can,he can live his life. And this
is, for me, why the ascension isso important. You know. I mean,
(14:19):
nobody celebrates the ascension,but Jesus said it's good for you
that I go away, because I'mgoing to become present in a
whole new way. I mean, if Jesushad not ascended, and he was
still here in His resurrectedbody. All right, can you imagine
the lines? I mean, how longwould you stand in line to have
(14:40):
a moment with the resurrectedChrist? But he said, No, that's
why it's good for you. I go awaybecause I'm going to be present.
Only way I'm going to send myHoly Spirit, which is going to
Bring me to life in every one ofyou. And so this is part of what
does it mean for the the humanimagination. Understand that
Christ wants to live Hisresurrection life and all that
(15:03):
it entails, and to release that,imagine that image of God in us
as we become little Christ.
Joshua Johnson (15:13):
Help me in this space where it's not you don't
go as far as David Bentley Hartdoes and calling us like little
gods, but we are in Christ whoseresurrection power is in us,
that we get to live in Christ'simagination. And to reveal the
image of God into this world, sothat we can actually, actually
(15:37):
with Christ, and in Christ, wecould help repair the world as
well, right? And differentthings help me with that, that
distinction what in Christreally means for us as followers
of Jesus and humans in ourlittle christness,
Leonard Sweet (15:54):
yeah, yeah. Well, that's where the Greek word that
we translate, save Jesus comecame to save us all right, is
Sozo. And sozo, in its original,truest form, means heal, health,
wholeness. In fact, WilliamTyndale, Joshua, the first time
(16:15):
he translated the Bible intoEnglish in 1524 he's translating
all the books of the Bible. Hedoes not use the word save.
Jesus came to save us. He uses,he translates Sozo as heal, make
us whole. And so what we arecalled to do is to is to Sozo
(16:37):
Jesus. I mean to release hishealing. Even this word
salvation has a healingcomponent to it, salve, to
release his healing energies.
And this is where the languageof the Eastern Orthodox has uses
the language of energy a lotmore than the Western Church
did. And I think we've got thiswhere David benley Hart is
(16:57):
right, we've got to rediscoverthe metaphors of the Eastern
Church, which is, what does itmean to release the energies and
not be called New Age andtalking about it? You know, for
me, New Age is sewage, but yourelease the healing powers and
energies of Christ on the worldand and it's not, it's not me
(17:18):
doing it. It's, it's theresurrection, presence and power
of Christ doing it. For me, it'sa, it's a really exciting,
empowering, emboldeningunderstanding of what it means
to live out of the imaginationof Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (17:35):
And this book that you're you're talking about
maker, mender, minder, Master.
Those are four components of theimagination of Jesus and what he
is. Can you just like portraythis, this portrait of his
creative hearts through thesefour moves, yeah, yeah,
Leonard Sweet (17:54):
that's a thank you for asking that question.
That's really good. One maker,of course, is God the Father,
the Creator. Mender is God theSon, but the one who heals and
mends and repairs as you as youput it, in very Jewish sense,
minder is the Holy Spirit, whichis the mind of Christ. So you
(18:15):
get all three together. You gotthem, then you got the master,
mastery of all three. So it's aTrinitarian it's a quadrifoil,
but it's a quadrilateral. Butit's really based on how Jesus
himself revealed God the Fatherand live the God the Father, the
Son, Holy Spirit without allwere present in in his life, as
they all were present at Hisbaptism. Think about it. I mean,
(18:36):
they all showed up with hisbaptism. It was just a beautiful
(19:25):
What a beautiful image. Godspoke, the dove descended, what
a beautiful image. So it's theTrinitarian. So the book is very
Trinitarian, and getting us tothink in Trinitarian categories.
Joshua Johnson (19:39):
How do you think that that shifts and changes the
way that we view our role in theworld, our role with God and
Jesus, if it is, we see thisTrinitarian aspect, yeah, of
Jesus and his imagination, yeah.
Leonard Sweet (19:55):
And that's where I have a 10 year old son right
now, and he's the most creativeperson I know. He begins every
day with, I need to create.
That's exactly how he beginsevery day I need to create.
Well, that's the that's the themaker, you know, and we aren't
making things Joshua, I mean, weand this is where Makoto
(20:15):
Fujimura is the artist is reallycalling us to. What does it mean
that we're called to, to make?
Now you can by making. We'retalking about whether it's
making food or making community,or May, whatever it is we are
called to be makers. And that'sthe reflection of God, the
(20:38):
Father, the Creator. We're alsocalled to be menders. We're
called to heal, to the Sozomission of of healing and
repairing the world, and healingbrokenness, and in a world
that's more polarized than ever,we need this mending. But then
what does it mean? And this iswhere the eight more and more as
(20:58):
we enter this AI world, to puton the mind of Christ, which is
revealed to us by the HolySpirit, and so to be minders of
the Spirit we're entering on ourwatch. Joshua, we're going to be
celebrating the 2,000thanniversary of the church. How
are we going to celebrate? It.
And what does it mean that weenter a third millennium? And in
many ways, I see it, and this Iget from yoa, Kima fior, 12th
(21:22):
century, Calabrian Abbot. Butthe first millennium the age of
the Father, the secondmillennium the age of the Son, I
really think this thirdmillennium is the age of the
spirit and the releasing andunleashing of the of the
energies of the resurrection,energies of the Spirit, which is
(21:44):
always the Spirit of Christ. Younever divorce the Spirit from
Jesus. And so we're what does itmean for us, then to mind the
spirit, to put on the mind ofChrist, as revealed to us by the
spirit and the scriptures,because you can't separate that
either. So that's the that's theexcitement of being a disciple
(22:04):
of Jesus. And I'm using thatlanguage more than Christian
that. I mean, I've always wantedto do a book Joshua. Will there
be any Christians in heaven?
Because Jesus was not aChristian. You know, Jesus did
not die on the cross to make usto start a new religion called
(22:24):
Christianity. Christianity iswhat we did to Jesus. What does
it mean to live out of to youcan use the word Christian if
you look like Christ, but the infact, the first convert in
heaven was a convict who wasn'ta christianhood at all. He just
accepted Jesus's forgiveness andlove and grace. So this whole
(22:46):
living out of the the life ofChrist and and as I said, you
know, faith, formation,discipleship. Formation is
Christ. Formation as Christforms in us.
Joshua Johnson (22:59):
If you're looking at Jesus's imagination
aspect of the of the spirit, andyou're talking about the new
millennium, the third millenniumis gonna be the one of the
spirits. We need the mind ofChrist and the Spirit to see
what is what is happening, andwhere we're going in the
imagination of that you talkabout how Jesus Is Jesus really
(23:20):
pays attention, and that thatattention is really important.
You've long been a student ofsemiotics and theology. You talk
about theodics, merging the twotogether, seeing the signs and
symbols. What does it look liketo have the mind of Christ be
the minder with the spiritseeing what is happening, what
(23:43):
is reality? What are the signsof the time and where we're
going and opening up a newimagination for the future?
Leonard Sweet (23:51):
That's the big question right there is, how do
we partly, it's a pivot awayfrom the idea that we take Jesus
anywhere, to realizing thatJesus, how do we recognize Jesus
where he already is? That's abig we believe in the Omni
presence of evil the more thanwe believe in the online
(24:13):
presence of the Spirit ofChrist. And what is it? What it
means for us, and this is whereI get in a lot of trouble. I
mean, because people just can'teverybody I meet, I look for the
presence of Jesus in their life.
It's not as if Jesus did notarrive in their life until I got
there, you know. I mean, likeI'm carrying Jesus like a
(24:34):
football and I'm bringing him toyou. No, this is called. Every
tradition has this prevenientgrace, common grace, long before
you and I arrived on the sceneand any scene, God was already
there, bringing Christ to life.
And Christ was already so thevery fact that I'm meeting
(24:56):
somebody for the first time,even a stranger that's in some
ways, I look at as aprovidential moment. It's an
it's a moment that has beenappointed in the mystery and
sovereignty and Providence ofGod. And that my job is not to
say, can I tell you what Jesusmeans to me, but to look for
(25:17):
what is Jesus already doing inyour life that led to this
moment you and I can be so it'srecognizing Jesus already there,
not my bringing him to to you.
So that's why evangelism isalways a two way street. Is that
I'm learning something andyou're learning something from
that. There's a reciprocityhere. So the first step of
(25:38):
evangelism is not show and tellit. Shut up and listen. Bring
out their story. Listen to theirstory. And from that story, you
go, wow, God's really been up tosomething in your life. What do
you mean? God's been upsomething in my life, yeah.
Can't you see it? You know,can't you see what the Spirit's
been doing? I feel Christ rightthere, and you're What do you
(25:58):
mean? Christ is in my life, youknow? So it's a whole different
it's a really huge semioticshift to to looking for the
signs that are already signs ofthe spirit, that are already
there around us, that we justhaven't connected the dots and
put. A pattern together, andthat's our job, is to say, You
know what the Spirit's really upto something? And look at, look
(26:22):
at what's happening and, and,wow, that's amazing. So it's a
whole huge kind of revolution inour thinking of, first of all
evangelism, which is, oh, I'mgoing to take, I'm going to take
God to or Jesus out there intosomebody's life. No, I'm not
bringing Jesus anybody. I'mdiscovering what he's already
(26:43):
doing. And then I wrote a wholebook on this called nudge. Then
you nudge what the Spirit isalready doing that person's
life, and nudge it forward. Soeverybody you meet, you can
nudge the Spirit of Christ inthem in some way, even if it's
just a compliment, a smile, justnudge that sign of the Spirit in
their life.
Joshua Johnson (27:05):
That's why I like Luke. Chapter 10, as Jesus
sends out is 72 the first thinghe says, when you find this
person of peace and they let youin, you eat. And he's talking
about eating around a table ameal. It is in those moments
where eating the first thing hesays to do is when I can ask
(27:26):
questions, I could learnpeople's story. I can we could
actually share somethingtogether, where I could notice
what Jesus is up to the tablefor you is, is, I think, key to
our story with Christ and ourstory with God. How does the
table, how does food? How doesthis help us actually see the
(27:49):
what's happening, what Jesus isup to, and what, what's this,
the the mystical aspect of thetable that could help us relate
and commune with God.
Leonard Sweet (28:00):
This is the heart of my semiotics right here,
Joshua, is this? This idea ofthe table, and to bring back the
table, both to our homes, ourchurches, our neighborhoods, and
to the world itself, and the thetree of life? You got two trees
in the garden, got the tree ofknowledge, which is know about
(28:22):
God, and then you got the Treeof Life, which is knowing God.
And God said, is not it's notimportant you know about me.
It's more important you know me.
And that's the and thatbreathes, that tree breathed
that spirit into us that made ushuman, the initial breath, God,
there was an initial breath, butthere's a constant breathing of
(28:43):
that divine breath into intoAdam and Eve, through that
breathing of that tree of life.
And I look at the table, andeven we have language for it,
think about we have leaves ofthe table. You know, the table
legs for me are the trunks ofthe tree. I mean, so for me, the
(29:04):
table is the new is the new isthe tree of life that God has
given us to gather around. Andthis is where the word sobra
mesa. Have you ever heard ofthat? Sobra Mesa is a Spanish
word. It's one of my favoritewords. I thought it was I wanted
to do sobra mesa.com lock it in,but I found out that when I went
(29:26):
there to get it, a cigar companyhad already because they're
making cigars for the table. Andwhat it means is, sobra Mesa
means Mesa means table. Sobrameans over the table. And sobra
Mesa in ancient cultures, evenMediterranean cultures today,
(29:46):
you would never think aboutsharing a meal, and then when
you're done eating, get up,because you owe that table
something more than just eatingyour food. You owe it sobra
Mesa, yobra, conversation,relationships. So it's table
time is, is, is huge in inEastern cultures and in ancient
(30:10):
cultures, because that's wherepeople communicated, they
connected, they told stories.
This is where learning tookplace. Where did Jesus teach? He
didn't teach from a pulpit or alectern. He taught from the
table. Most of his stories weretold at tables. So it is a and
he said, meet me at the table.
You can't get more. Do this inremembrance of me. Meet me at
(30:32):
the table. So for me, the tableis the tree of life that
breathes the spirit into ourfamilies, our communities, our
neighborhoods, and we've we'velost the the table. We've lost
the essence of of what it meansto be in relationship with God
and each other.
Joshua Johnson (30:52):
It seems to me that that's a that's a move of
our life, that we move from astage where we all we want is to
know about God, and we want toknow the facts and the figures
of God, and we study thosethings into a place of knowing
God. You know, I talked to Ronrohlheiser. He talks about the
(31:14):
images of God falling away. Andwe just live in the reality of
who God is. So we because wecan't really grasp who God
really is through the knowingabout him, because he's
infinite, like there's you justcan't get him. We can't
encompass him, fine. I cannotcomprehend infinite. Yeah, so
(31:37):
how do we what does that movelook like for us in our lives,
to moving from the knowing aboutto knowing God,
Leonard Sweet (31:44):
and that's the that's the ultimate in in what
the word know means is that thatthe Hebrew word yada, you know,
which is meaning the intimaterelationship that you have with
a spouse, with the mostimportant people in your life.
That's the kind of knowing thatGod wants from us. Is that
(32:05):
knowing, that relationship of ofknowing each other in that kind
of intimate way, and this isreally you know the meaning of
the word truth is where we knowthe truth is a word. But again,
every word is based on ametaphor and a story. If you
look at the word truth in itsGreek form, it literally means,
(32:31):
in its basic sense, to come outof hiding and so to know God in
this in a truth sense, to knowthe truth about God is not an
intellectual ascent and concept.
It's to realize that you arehiding. We're all hiders. I
(32:53):
mean, that's the add up. That'sthe garden story. We're hiding
from God. That's our originalsin. Is hiding, and we're hiding
from God. And then so the thewhole story, the Bible is a hide
and seek story. But that's why,that's why I hate the language
of seekers. No, we are notseekers. We're the hiders. We
shouldn't have been doing seekersensitive worship. We should
(33:13):
have been doing higher sensitiveworship. God's the seeker. The
whole story of the Bible is Godis calling us out of our hiding
places to come into the light ofGod's presence and to enter into
that relationship, that trueknowing God that we were afraid
of. And that's where the mostsacred, the second most sacred
(33:38):
word in Hebrew, most sacredwords you can't say, which is
Yahweh. You know it's so sacredyou don't speak it. But the
second one is henani, H, I, N, En, i, which means when you come
out of hiding, or God calls usout of hiding, we come into the
light of God's presence. And wesay these words that that
(33:59):
Abraham said, and Isaiah said,and Jeremiah said, and they all
And Moses said, Hanani literallymeans, here I am. So you're
saying to the great I am, here Iam. And that's that's truth.
That's the truth of knowing God,not knowing about God Joshua,
(34:24):
but knowing God. And the powerof that moment of being in the
light of God's presence andrealizing that the only hiding
place then we have is in leaningon the arms of Jesus. Is in the
is in the bosom of Jesus, in thepresence of God. That's our only
hiding place. And so to come outof all the places that we're
(34:46):
hiding, we're all hiders. We'rehiding from God, we're hiding
from each other, we're hidingfrom ourselves, we're hiding
from creation. And to come outof that hiding into that
(35:56):
relationship, that numinousrelationship of knowing God,
that's that's the life of truththat's beautiful.
Joshua Johnson (36:07):
It reminds me of the story of the lost son as he
goes into hiding, right? He'slike, I'm broken. I'm going to
hiding. And then he turns backand says, Hey, even the servants
have it better with my father.
So he turns back to the Father,comes out of hiding, and he
finally receives the embrace ofthe Father. Gorgeous story, and
(36:28):
that's the perfect thing thatJesus tells the story of this,
the hidden one into this nowrelationship of knowing the
father, by
Leonard Sweet (36:41):
the way, that you go to any Literature Department
in the world. I don't carewhether it's you know what
continent you're on, but if youask, what is the greatest short
story ever told? And Mo they'remost likely to tell you the most
perfect short story ever told isthe story of the prodigal son. I
mean Jesus, the masterstoryteller tells us the
(37:04):
greatest tells the greatestshort story ever in the history
of language and literature. It'show beautiful that story is.
Joshua Johnson (37:11):
How do you do this? So as somebody who is
immersed, you're immersed inwork. So writing over 70 books,
you're immersed in words. How doyou get to a place of moving
towards narrative, metaphor,story, so that you can get to a
(37:32):
place of knowing God, and notjust knowing about God, trying
to use all your words to try andfigure him out.
Leonard Sweet (37:39):
I have a former student that is now in charge of
a publishing company calledinvite resources. His name is
Len Wilson, but he coined aword. I used to see myself as a
word Smith, Joshua, somebodyplayed with I'm now trying to be
an image Smith. That's histhat's his word, and it's a
(38:00):
major shift in in thinking. So Idon't see myself immersed in
words. I see myself immersed inmetaphors and stories. In fact,
I don't in my house. I refuse tohow loud nothing in my house
that doesn't have a story,because when you just I don't
have stuff. I mean, my houselooks like it's stuffed, but for
(38:24):
me, there's no stuff. It's all astory. So you immerse yourself
in stories. Here's where therubber hits the road. Here that
rankles some people when I saythis, when we talk about the
Bible, is the authoritativequote Word of God. All right,
the Bible is the inspired Wordof God. But we got to change our
(38:49):
we got to start thinking about,these are the inspired metaphors
of God. These are the inspiredstories of God. These are,
forget about the words. Theseare authoritative, inspired. I
don't I don't have a problemwith infallible. I have problem
with inerrant. But these arethese metaphors that Jesus gives
(39:13):
us that are in our story, thesestories that he gives us, these
are authoritative, inspired. Sowe need to look at metaphor and
story and narrative as we usedto look at word and understand
the power is not the power isnot in the Word. By the way, the
worst translation of logos isword. That's why David Bentley
(39:33):
Hart refuses to translate logosand anything other than just got
to learn the word logos. He saidthere's certain Greek and Hebrew
words you just got to learn. AndI agree with him on that, but it
is really what does it mean? Ibelieve in the inspired,
authoritative and fallible storyof God, which is a whole
(39:58):
different way of of kind ofthinking about so I don't see
myself as a wordsmith anymore.
Is I love words. I love to playwith words. But for me, the
words are embellishing andembroidering and embossing a
metaphor and a narrative.
Joshua Johnson (40:15):
One of the things that you you write, you
said the kingdom, which now youmay be using some Jubilee
language, but the kingdom is notbuilt but entered, and its
doorway is the imagination ofthe human one. So what does it
look like for us to inhabit theimagination of the human one of
(40:36):
Jesus, to enter into
Leonard Sweet (40:38):
His kingdom.
Well, this is where the Jesus isa Jew. He lives out of a Hebrew
imagination. That's where AndyStanley and I part here. This is
part of our imagination, too.
The whole first testament, theword that we we translate as
right in Genesis one. It isgood. The word Hebrew word is
(40:59):
tow, T, O, V, but it's, it's acomplex word, and it's, I think
here about the word Maranatha.
You know, we we translateMaranatha as Come Lord Jesus,
but it actually Maranatha inAramaic, which is an Aramaic
word, has three tenses. It meansthe one who has come is coming
now and will come again. So ithas past, present, future in it
(41:22):
that one word, so you can eithersay grace, you and peace,
brothers and sisters from onewho is the one who was the one
who is to come, or you can justsay Maranatha. And it's the same
with that word Tov, that Hebrewword Tov TLV, because it means
not just good. It meansbeautiful and true. It has three
(41:44):
different meanings. So you'vegot all three of them at the
same time, and we just translateit as good. But for Aquinas,
supposedly the greatesttheologian in history,
Christianity, he The bigquestion is, how do you know
Jesus is present? How do yourecognize Jesus? Which is what
(42:04):
the disciples couldn't do in hispost resurrection appearances.
They every time they could, theyfail to recognize him. So Thomas
is totally obsessed with, how dowe recognize him today? And he
came up. Up with these, what hecalls the three transcendentals
of being. But really, all he'sdoing is rediscovering Tov and
his three transcendentals ofbeing is, are that Jesus, you
(42:30):
would look for the good, thebeautiful and the true. And when
you find the good, the beautifultrue, you find Jesus, but wait a
minute, you got to find and theycalled it the correspondence of
the transcendentals. You got tofind all three together. Because
the the beauty is not aHollywood beauty that's by
itself. You know, beauty has gotto be good and it's got to be
(42:55):
true as well. I mean, so thesame week, Mother Teresa and
Princess Diana died. Who's themost beautiful person in the
world? Well, everybody saidPrincess Diana, but in a toe
sense, no, the most beautifulperson in the world was Mother
Teresa. Because it's not aHollywood beauty. It's a beauty
that's good and it's a beautythat's true. So part of what it
(43:17):
means to live out of theimagination of Jesus, who's
always looking for Tov I mean,so you're looking to bring
beauty and goodness and truthinto the world, and you're
looking to bring them alltogether as one. And so you're
really living out of a Tovimagination. So are you making
for me, every annual reportought to be a Tove report. Is
(43:41):
not what don't tell me yourstatistics. Tell me your
stories, your stories of wheredid you bring goodness and
beauty and truth into yourneighborhood? Where's the beauty
and goodness and truth youbrought into your church? What
did the church do to Tove theworld forward this year? So it
that's the imagination of Jesus.
It's show me the beauty. And Ido think, for the apologetics of
(44:06):
the of the 21st Century and our22nd century kids, the ultimate
apologetics is not a rationalone anymore, Joshua, it's a an
esthetic apologetics. Theultimate apologetics today,
isn't esthetics. Show me thebeauty of Jesus, show me the
goodness of Jesus, show me thetruth of Jesus, not rationally,
(44:32):
comprehend and understand whoJesus is. No, show me. Show me
the esthetics. That's theultimate apologetics, and that's
what it means to live out of aTove imagination.
Joshua Johnson (44:44):
What do you think the church would look like
if we actually inhabited thecreativity and imagination of
Jesus? Where should we go fromhere as the church?
Leonard Sweet (44:58):
Let the beauty of Jesus be seen in us. Let the
truth of Jesus be seen in us.
Let the goodness of Jesus beseen in us and live out of out
of that imagination. So whatdoes it mean to become beautiful
again and good again and trueagain? And so that's where I
think Jesus leaves us, and hehas an artisans, if you will, a
(45:19):
gardener's imagination. I mean,he's the last Adam. And so what
does it mean to garden yourlife, to look at your life as a
garden that grows things ofbeauty and goodness and truth,
and to live out of thatgardener's imagination. That's
the world of professiongardening. And what does it mean
to rediscover by the way, Marydidn't recognize him because she
(45:43):
thought he was the gardener. HeIn other words, as a semiotic
flair. We're back in the gardenwhere we can walk and talk and
and be with God again like neverbefore. And the veil was he
himself took the became the veilhis body was rent and broken so
that we could enter that innerHoly of Holies again and know
(46:03):
God. I just know about God.
Joshua Johnson (46:07):
This has been fantastic. Lynn, I have a couple
of quick questions at the end. Ilike to ask people. One, if you
go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would you give
Leonard Sweet (46:18):
live each moment as if it were your first day the
rest of your life and your lastday of the rest of your life.
Hmm, that's good advice, Alphaand Omega every day.
Joshua Johnson (46:27):
Yeah, that's really good advice. Anything
you've been reading or watchinglately you could recommend.
Leonard Sweet (46:33):
I just was reading this morning. This is a
book written by a Yale professorcalled they flew, a history of
the impossible. And he looks atstories of any it's a post
critical approach Joshua. And sohe doesn't take it and say,
okay, these people thatsupposedly lived out of the
(46:56):
miraculous didn't really do it.
Let's give a modern critique ofit. He just lets them tell their
story, and tells the story ofthose who told stories about
them. And so that's the one thatI was reading this morning. So
they flew
Joshua Johnson (47:10):
so this book that is going to come out, maker
mender, minder master, when's itgoing to be out for people to
get? And how can people connectwith what you're doing and
you're for Christmas before?
Christmas before? Yeah, allright, so
Leonard Sweet (47:27):
you have a Christmas week all by the way,
called the star still beckons.
It's my first advent Christmas,New Year's book. So it's a
little, little, tiny thing. Itmakes a great gift to book. So
that's a my first adventChristmas tide book.
Joshua Johnson (47:44):
The star still back. It's already out, and
that's out. Could get that?
Where would you like to pointpeople to so they can get your
work they can buy your yourwhole library of books? Yeah?
Leonard Sweet (47:56):
Just go to Amazon. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Or
our hearts and minds bookstoresis my favorite indie bookstore,
hearts and minds. So eitherhearts and minds bookstore,
hearts and minds.com or just goto Amazon and they'll get it to
you. It's been great being withyou. Joshua, thank you for
Joshua Johnson (48:13):
inviting Lynn.
Thank you. Thank you for thisconversation. Really enjoyed it,
really going deep into theimagination of Jesus and what
that looks like for us. So thankyou. Lynn, it was fantastic.
Leonard Sweet (48:23):
Thank you. Thank you. You.
The whole story of the Bible is God is calling
us out of our hiding places tocome into the light of God's
presence and to enter into thatrelationship, that true knowing
God that we were afraid of you.
It.
Joshua Johnson (01:00):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson, in this
episode, I'm joined by Leonardsweet for a rich and wide
ranging conversation on theimagination of Jesus and why
imagination is not optional tofaith, but essential to what it
(01:22):
means to be human. We explorehow Jesus doesn't simply explain
reality, but creates a way ofliving in the world through
story, metaphor and beauty,rather than offering abstract
ideas or religious systems,Jesus invites us into a
transformed imagination thatreshapes how we see God
ourselves and the world. Lenchallenges the church to recover
(01:44):
its creative vocation, to movebeyond fear based and
information driven faith and torediscover discipleship as
Christ forming in us. We talkabout Jubilee as the heart of
Jesus' vision, the healing andmending of the world and what it
means to live in Christ in a waythat is embodied, relational and
alive. This conversation invitesus to move from knowing about
(02:07):
God to truly knowing God, and toinhabit a faith marked by
goodness, beauty and truth in anage desperate for all three. So
join us. Here is my conversationwith Leonard. Sweet Lynn,
welcome to shifting culture. Sohonored and thankful that you're
on so
Leonard Sweet (02:25):
thanks for joining me. Hey, great to be
with you, Joshua. I'm going to
Joshua Johnson (02:29):
start with a little bit of a preamble. When
we're talking about imaginationtoday, yeah, I think that in the
story of God, He is Creator. Sohe imagines us. He imagines this
world. He creates. We, ashumans, are made in the image of
God, and so we also can create.
We're co creators with him as wecreate in the garden. You move
(02:52):
this as the story progresses, wecome into Jesus. Jesus, the
incarnation of Jesus, comes onthe scene. You talk about how
Jesus's imagination is reallycrucial and important for us to
understand that he doesn't justexplain reality. He creates
reality lived in why is theimagination of Jesus so
(03:15):
important?
Leonard Sweet (03:19):
Yeah, that's the ultimate question of the whole
book. And what does it mean?
You've set it up perfectly,although I would argue a little
bit with your co creatorlanguage. I don't really like
that, because I'm not coanything with God. You know what
I mean? I'm a and Tolkiensuggested the language of sub
creator. And so I really likethat. I'm a I continue God's
(03:42):
creativity. I'm not, if the oldbumper sticker, if God, you're
co pilot, somebody's in thewrong seat. And so I'm not a co
anything with God. I'm I'm a subcreator. I continue God's
creativity. In other words, thewhole thing about the book is,
what does it mean for us tocontinue to live out of the
(04:03):
imagination of God and tocontinue the imagination of
Jesus, who revealed God'simagination in his own life? I
also wrote a whole book on hisone little distinction, Joshua,
that is really so important.
It's called Jesus human. And hisfavorite description for himself
is son of man. But that's areally bad translation. It
(04:23):
really should be the human one.
And Jesus came to show us how tobe human. He's the last Adam
that did what the first Adamcouldn't do. The essence of the
first Adam, if you look at thecreation story, our Genesis
story is that you can't be humanwithout the divine, the divine,
and this is the paradox. TheDivine is what makes us human.
(04:44):
This is where I argue with some,with a lot of people out there
included they including DavidBentley Hart, who has this you
are God's book. No, the divinedoesn't make us God. The Divine
makes us human. That's theuniqueness. So to say to
somebody's only human, are youkidding me? We were created a
(05:06):
little lower than God. It's notthe angels, the angels. That's a
bad translation, a little lowerthan Elohim. So we were created
a little lower than we are abovethe angel. So God created us
with this imagination that whatit means to be created in God's
image. And so we continue lit tolive out of that imagination.
(05:26):
And for me, the church is one.
The least. I mean, who shouldknow the Creator better than the
church? And we're that's ourspecialty, is to know the
Creator. What does the Creatordo? Create? Where's the least
creative place you expect thatyou find in the culture is the
church, you know. So we'rebastions of boredom. We ought to
(05:50):
be bursting with energy,creativity, imagination. So it
makes you wonder whether wereally know the Creator at all
or well enough at all. So tolive out of the Jesus
imagination is to live out ofthis creativity and imagination
that our Creator gives us, andit's it's the divine spark in us
(06:10):
to let that grow to let that beinspired. Inspiration, the
Inspire it that spirit. Sothat's the whole purpose of the
book is to really look atimagination, which I think will
be the cultural currency of thefuture in an AI age, the one
thing that AI cannot reproduceis imagination. And so this will
(06:33):
be our major distinction betweenthe world of AI and the world of
the human.
Joshua Johnson (06:40):
So how do you think then imagination and
Jesus's imagination then createdreality that it bridges heaven
and earth. It bridges the actuallike, Hey, this is the facts
that AI will give us to in thisis where we're headed in this
story of God and man.
Leonard Sweet (07:00):
Well, the key to imagination is, is metaphor, and
this is what the church is soanother thing the church is so
bereft of Joshua is, is is theability to communicate a
metaphor, and this is one of thegreatest discoveries. First 25
years of my life, we lived outof we explored outer space. We
(07:21):
went to the moon. We did allthis stuff. The last 25 years,
30 years, it's been aboutexploring inner space, and the
ultimate in inner spaces, we'vebeen mapping the micro circuitry
of the brain. This is calledcognitive science, cognitive
studies, psycho, neuro,linguistics, whatever you want
to call it. And the biggestdiscovery so far of cognitive
(07:44):
science is that your mind, andmy mind, the mind, the human
mind, is not made of words. It'sreally the last thing that the
mind comes up with, that thehuman mind is made of metaphors.
Your mind, your brain, thinks inmetaphors, and then those
metaphors turn into narratives.
And at the end of a longprocess, you get words, but
(08:08):
metaphors, narratives are theway in which the human mind
thinks, and you prove it everytime you sleep. You don't sleep,
you don't dream in words. Youdream in stories built on a
metaphor. You'll never have adream of you reading a book,
because words are not a part ofhow your brain thinks. And since
the Protestant Reformation,we've been all about words,
(08:32):
points, propositions, all thatstuff. But we're now back to the
Jesus imagination, which isJesus. His imagination flowed
through metaphors andnarratives. He did not say, let
me give you these seven habitsof highly effective
discipleship. Write these down.
(08:52):
He goes, the kingdom of heavenis like. And then after the
light came a metaphor, lostcoin, around which he he he kind
of wove a little narrative, andthen he even mixed metaphors,
lost coin, lost sheep, lost son.
I mean, the thing that we werenever told to do, Jesus did all
the time, mixes metaphors. Nowthe mixing of the metaphors was
(09:15):
around a thread which was lost,lost. But the point is the Jesus
imagination, if you if you lookat how he imagined the world, it
was all through. It was ametaphor. Metaphor is
metamorphosis. In my preaching,I don't exegete words, I execute
images, exegete metaphors. Andinstead of leaving people with
(09:36):
points, you leave them with ametaphor. And these metaphors
are healing. I mean, you evengot a form of therapy now,
psychotherapy, which is justnarrative therapy, you just give
people new stories, newmetaphors to live by. That's the
whole healing. And so he, heheals the world. He heals
people. He he creates a wholenew world. Gapes a whole new
(09:58):
world. How you have heard itsaid, but I say, and then comes,
what? Not a new doctrine or anew point or a new word, it
comes. It's a new metaphor and astory. And so it's out of this
storied imagination of Jesus andHis, his well Storied Life, if
you will, that we are called to,to live out of the Jesus story
(10:22):
and the Jesus metaphors.
Joshua Johnson (10:25):
How does he do that? So for for us, he, he kind
of names reality. You. You haveheard it said so he names what
people believe is the story thatwe are living in. And then he
moves into giving us animagination for a new story, a
story that this is like, what isactual reality underneath our
(10:46):
perceived look at the worldexactly like when he comes on on
the scene and he pronounces likethis Jubilee passage from
Isaiah. What is he trying to saythat's different than what
people are living in at themoment?
Leonard Sweet (11:02):
Well, the big thing is he's announcing himself
as Jubilee. Jesus is Jubilee. Infact, I use Jubilee increasingly
rather than kingdom, because ifyou look at his inaugural
sermon, he's got five, you know,themes, you know, I've come and
his last one is, I am the, youknow, to the day of the Lord's
appointing the time. And that'sthe, that's the Shibboleth for
(11:26):
Jubilee. And Jubilee is wheneverything starts over again.
You begin new. All the prisonsare open, the debts are
forgiven, the the land goesfallow so that it can replenish
and heal. And so he's actuallyannouncing himself as Jubilee,
(11:46):
and and he becomes Jesus,becomes himself Jubilee. And
that's, that's what really, insome ways, what got him killed
was that he by saying he'sJubilee, saying he's the
Messiah, he's the red heifer. Imean, all that goes with that
understanding of Jubilee. So,yeah, I mean, it's a, it was a
(12:07):
radical notion. But to to livein Him and to live in Christ.
And this is, for me, the keything here is that discipleship
formation is really Christformation. What does it mean for
Christ to form in us? I wrote abunch of books with Frank Viola,
(12:27):
who and I disagree about mostthings, but we agreed on Jesus
because we found out that. So wesaid, let's show the church that
people that disagree about mostthings can, if they agree on
Jesus, can write some bookstogether. So we did. But the key
was we both what came to thisawakening that it was that I
know there's a Colossians two,but I can't get there, because I
(12:48):
can't get past Colossians. One,the secret that has been kept
hidden has now been revealed.
Christ in you the hope of glory.
What does it mean that we are tolive in Christ, and Christ is to
live in us, that we are to sharehis resurrection life. I mean
that Jesus is alive. How is healive? Well, he lives, you know,
(13:10):
the old song he lives. I know Helives because he lives in in me.
And what does it mean to letChrist so even a metaphor. I
mean, I'm not a big leadershipguy, because I'm all about
followership. What does it meanto follow Jesus? But even that
Joshua has some distance to it.
But we're talking aboutsomething more, that no Christ
wants to live His resurrectionlife in and through us. So you
(13:34):
find in Christ this language. InChrist 100 over 100 times in
Paul's writings, just what doesit mean to live in Christ, and
He Himself in as much you did onthe least of these you did it to
me. I mean, so this constantsharing in his his life. So it's
all for me about and that'sreally what the word Christian
(13:56):
means, a little Christ. Whatdoes it mean for us to become
little Christ? It doesn't meanwe become Christ. There's only
one Christ, but we becomethere's only one big J We're all
little Jays. You know, oneChrist, but we're to become
little. Christ, and so he can,he can live his life. And this
is, for me, why the ascension isso important. You know. I mean,
(14:19):
nobody celebrates the ascension,but Jesus said it's good for you
that I go away, because I'mgoing to become present in a
whole new way. I mean, if Jesushad not ascended, and he was
still here in His resurrectedbody. All right, can you imagine
the lines? I mean, how longwould you stand in line to have
(14:40):
a moment with the resurrectedChrist? But he said, No, that's
why it's good for you. I go awaybecause I'm going to be present.
Only way I'm going to send myHoly Spirit, which is going to
Bring me to life in every one ofyou. And so this is part of what
does it mean for the the humanimagination. Understand that
Christ wants to live Hisresurrection life and all that
(15:03):
it entails, and to release that,imagine that image of God in us
as we become little Christ.
Joshua Johnson (15:13):
Help me in this space where it's not you don't
go as far as David Bentley Hartdoes and calling us like little
gods, but we are in Christ whoseresurrection power is in us,
that we get to live in Christ'simagination. And to reveal the
image of God into this world, sothat we can actually, actually
(15:37):
with Christ, and in Christ, wecould help repair the world as
well, right? And differentthings help me with that, that
distinction what in Christreally means for us as followers
of Jesus and humans in ourlittle christness,
Leonard Sweet (15:54):
yeah, yeah. Well, that's where the Greek word that
we translate, save Jesus comecame to save us all right, is
Sozo. And sozo, in its original,truest form, means heal, health,
wholeness. In fact, WilliamTyndale, Joshua, the first time
(16:15):
he translated the Bible intoEnglish in 1524 he's translating
all the books of the Bible. Hedoes not use the word save.
Jesus came to save us. He uses,he translates Sozo as heal, make
us whole. And so what we arecalled to do is to is to Sozo
(16:37):
Jesus. I mean to release hishealing. Even this word
salvation has a healingcomponent to it, salve, to
release his healing energies.
And this is where the languageof the Eastern Orthodox has uses
the language of energy a lotmore than the Western Church
did. And I think we've got thiswhere David benley Hart is
(16:57):
right, we've got to rediscoverthe metaphors of the Eastern
Church, which is, what does itmean to release the energies and
not be called New Age andtalking about it? You know, for
me, New Age is sewage, but yourelease the healing powers and
energies of Christ on the worldand and it's not, it's not me
(17:18):
doing it. It's, it's theresurrection, presence and power
of Christ doing it. For me, it'sa, it's a really exciting,
empowering, emboldeningunderstanding of what it means
to live out of the imaginationof Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (17:35):
And this book that you're you're talking about
maker, mender, minder, Master.
Those are four components of theimagination of Jesus and what he
is. Can you just like portraythis, this portrait of his
creative hearts through thesefour moves, yeah, yeah,
Leonard Sweet (17:54):
that's a thank you for asking that question.
That's really good. One maker,of course, is God the Father,
the Creator. Mender is God theSon, but the one who heals and
mends and repairs as you as youput it, in very Jewish sense,
minder is the Holy Spirit, whichis the mind of Christ. So you
(18:15):
get all three together. You gotthem, then you got the master,
mastery of all three. So it's aTrinitarian it's a quadrifoil,
but it's a quadrilateral. Butit's really based on how Jesus
himself revealed God the Fatherand live the God the Father, the
Son, Holy Spirit without allwere present in in his life, as
they all were present at Hisbaptism. Think about it. I mean,
(18:36):
they all showed up with hisbaptism. It was just a beautiful
(19:25):
What a beautiful image. Godspoke, the dove descended, what
a beautiful image. So it's theTrinitarian. So the book is very
Trinitarian, and getting us tothink in Trinitarian categories.
Joshua Johnson (19:39):
How do you think that that shifts and changes the
way that we view our role in theworld, our role with God and
Jesus, if it is, we see thisTrinitarian aspect, yeah, of
Jesus and his imagination, yeah.
Leonard Sweet (19:55):
And that's where I have a 10 year old son right
now, and he's the most creativeperson I know. He begins every
day with, I need to create.
That's exactly how he beginsevery day I need to create.
Well, that's the that's the themaker, you know, and we aren't
making things Joshua, I mean, weand this is where Makoto
(20:15):
Fujimura is the artist is reallycalling us to. What does it mean
that we're called to, to make?
Now you can by making. We'retalking about whether it's
making food or making community,or May, whatever it is we are
called to be makers. And that'sthe reflection of God, the
(20:38):
Father, the Creator. We're alsocalled to be menders. We're
called to heal, to the Sozomission of of healing and
repairing the world, and healingbrokenness, and in a world
that's more polarized than ever,we need this mending. But then
what does it mean? And this iswhere the eight more and more as
(20:58):
we enter this AI world, to puton the mind of Christ, which is
revealed to us by the HolySpirit, and so to be minders of
the Spirit we're entering on ourwatch. Joshua, we're going to be
celebrating the 2,000thanniversary of the church. How
are we going to celebrate? It.
And what does it mean that weenter a third millennium? And in
many ways, I see it, and this Iget from yoa, Kima fior, 12th
(21:22):
century, Calabrian Abbot. Butthe first millennium the age of
the Father, the secondmillennium the age of the Son, I
really think this thirdmillennium is the age of the
spirit and the releasing andunleashing of the of the
energies of the resurrection,energies of the Spirit, which is
(21:44):
always the Spirit of Christ. Younever divorce the Spirit from
Jesus. And so we're what does itmean for us, then to mind the
spirit, to put on the mind ofChrist, as revealed to us by the
spirit and the scriptures,because you can't separate that
either. So that's the that's theexcitement of being a disciple
(22:04):
of Jesus. And I'm using thatlanguage more than Christian
that. I mean, I've always wantedto do a book Joshua. Will there
be any Christians in heaven?
Because Jesus was not aChristian. You know, Jesus did
not die on the cross to make usto start a new religion called
(22:24):
Christianity. Christianity iswhat we did to Jesus. What does
it mean to live out of to youcan use the word Christian if
you look like Christ, but the infact, the first convert in
heaven was a convict who wasn'ta christianhood at all. He just
accepted Jesus's forgiveness andlove and grace. So this whole
(22:46):
living out of the the life ofChrist and and as I said, you
know, faith, formation,discipleship. Formation is
Christ. Formation as Christforms in us.
Joshua Johnson (22:59):
If you're looking at Jesus's imagination
aspect of the of the spirit, andyou're talking about the new
millennium, the third millenniumis gonna be the one of the
spirits. We need the mind ofChrist and the Spirit to see
what is what is happening, andwhere we're going in the
imagination of that you talkabout how Jesus Is Jesus really
(23:20):
pays attention, and that thatattention is really important.
You've long been a student ofsemiotics and theology. You talk
about theodics, merging the twotogether, seeing the signs and
symbols. What does it look liketo have the mind of Christ be
the minder with the spiritseeing what is happening, what
(23:43):
is reality? What are the signsof the time and where we're
going and opening up a newimagination for the future?
Leonard Sweet (23:51):
That's the big question right there is, how do
we partly, it's a pivot awayfrom the idea that we take Jesus
anywhere, to realizing thatJesus, how do we recognize Jesus
where he already is? That's abig we believe in the Omni
presence of evil the more thanwe believe in the online
(24:13):
presence of the Spirit ofChrist. And what is it? What it
means for us, and this is whereI get in a lot of trouble. I
mean, because people just can'teverybody I meet, I look for the
presence of Jesus in their life.
It's not as if Jesus did notarrive in their life until I got
there, you know. I mean, likeI'm carrying Jesus like a
(24:34):
football and I'm bringing him toyou. No, this is called. Every
tradition has this prevenientgrace, common grace, long before
you and I arrived on the sceneand any scene, God was already
there, bringing Christ to life.
And Christ was already so thevery fact that I'm meeting
(24:56):
somebody for the first time,even a stranger that's in some
ways, I look at as aprovidential moment. It's an
it's a moment that has beenappointed in the mystery and
sovereignty and Providence ofGod. And that my job is not to
say, can I tell you what Jesusmeans to me, but to look for
(25:17):
what is Jesus already doing inyour life that led to this
moment you and I can be so it'srecognizing Jesus already there,
not my bringing him to to you.
So that's why evangelism isalways a two way street. Is that
I'm learning something andyou're learning something from
that. There's a reciprocityhere. So the first step of
(25:38):
evangelism is not show and tellit. Shut up and listen. Bring
out their story. Listen to theirstory. And from that story, you
go, wow, God's really been up tosomething in your life. What do
you mean? God's been upsomething in my life, yeah.
Can't you see it? You know,can't you see what the Spirit's
been doing? I feel Christ rightthere, and you're What do you
(25:58):
mean? Christ is in my life, youknow? So it's a whole different
it's a really huge semioticshift to to looking for the
signs that are already signs ofthe spirit, that are already
there around us, that we justhaven't connected the dots and
put. A pattern together, andthat's our job, is to say, You
know what the Spirit's really upto something? And look at, look
(26:22):
at what's happening and, and,wow, that's amazing. So it's a
whole huge kind of revolution inour thinking of, first of all
evangelism, which is, oh, I'mgoing to take, I'm going to take
God to or Jesus out there intosomebody's life. No, I'm not
bringing Jesus anybody. I'mdiscovering what he's already
(26:43):
doing. And then I wrote a wholebook on this called nudge. Then
you nudge what the Spirit isalready doing that person's
life, and nudge it forward. Soeverybody you meet, you can
nudge the Spirit of Christ inthem in some way, even if it's
just a compliment, a smile, justnudge that sign of the Spirit in
their life.
Joshua Johnson (27:05):
That's why I like Luke. Chapter 10, as Jesus
sends out is 72 the first thinghe says, when you find this
person of peace and they let youin, you eat. And he's talking
about eating around a table ameal. It is in those moments
where eating the first thing hesays to do is when I can ask
(27:26):
questions, I could learnpeople's story. I can we could
actually share somethingtogether, where I could notice
what Jesus is up to the tablefor you is, is, I think, key to
our story with Christ and ourstory with God. How does the
table, how does food? How doesthis help us actually see the
(27:49):
what's happening, what Jesus isup to, and what, what's this,
the the mystical aspect of thetable that could help us relate
and commune with God.
Leonard Sweet (28:00):
This is the heart of my semiotics right here,
Joshua, is this? This idea ofthe table, and to bring back the
table, both to our homes, ourchurches, our neighborhoods, and
to the world itself, and the thetree of life? You got two trees
in the garden, got the tree ofknowledge, which is know about
(28:22):
God, and then you got the Treeof Life, which is knowing God.
And God said, is not it's notimportant you know about me.
It's more important you know me.
And that's the and thatbreathes, that tree breathed
that spirit into us that made ushuman, the initial breath, God,
there was an initial breath, butthere's a constant breathing of
(28:43):
that divine breath into intoAdam and Eve, through that
breathing of that tree of life.
And I look at the table, andeven we have language for it,
think about we have leaves ofthe table. You know, the table
legs for me are the trunks ofthe tree. I mean, so for me, the
(29:04):
table is the new is the new isthe tree of life that God has
given us to gather around. Andthis is where the word sobra
mesa. Have you ever heard ofthat? Sobra Mesa is a Spanish
word. It's one of my favoritewords. I thought it was I wanted
to do sobra mesa.com lock it in,but I found out that when I went
(29:26):
there to get it, a cigar companyhad already because they're
making cigars for the table. Andwhat it means is, sobra Mesa
means Mesa means table. Sobrameans over the table. And sobra
Mesa in ancient cultures, evenMediterranean cultures today,
(29:46):
you would never think aboutsharing a meal, and then when
you're done eating, get up,because you owe that table
something more than just eatingyour food. You owe it sobra
Mesa, yobra, conversation,relationships. So it's table
time is, is, is huge in inEastern cultures and in ancient
(30:10):
cultures, because that's wherepeople communicated, they
connected, they told stories.
This is where learning tookplace. Where did Jesus teach? He
didn't teach from a pulpit or alectern. He taught from the
table. Most of his stories weretold at tables. So it is a and
he said, meet me at the table.
You can't get more. Do this inremembrance of me. Meet me at
(30:32):
the table. So for me, the tableis the tree of life that
breathes the spirit into ourfamilies, our communities, our
neighborhoods, and we've we'velost the the table. We've lost
the essence of of what it meansto be in relationship with God
and each other.
Joshua Johnson (30:52):
It seems to me that that's a that's a move of
our life, that we move from astage where we all we want is to
know about God, and we want toknow the facts and the figures
of God, and we study thosethings into a place of knowing
God. You know, I talked to Ronrohlheiser. He talks about the
(31:14):
images of God falling away. Andwe just live in the reality of
who God is. So we because wecan't really grasp who God
really is through the knowingabout him, because he's
infinite, like there's you justcan't get him. We can't
encompass him, fine. I cannotcomprehend infinite. Yeah, so
(31:37):
how do we what does that movelook like for us in our lives,
to moving from the knowing aboutto knowing God,
Leonard Sweet (31:44):
and that's the that's the ultimate in in what
the word know means is that thatthe Hebrew word yada, you know,
which is meaning the intimaterelationship that you have with
a spouse, with the mostimportant people in your life.
That's the kind of knowing thatGod wants from us. Is that
(32:05):
knowing, that relationship of ofknowing each other in that kind
of intimate way, and this isreally you know the meaning of
the word truth is where we knowthe truth is a word. But again,
every word is based on ametaphor and a story. If you
look at the word truth in itsGreek form, it literally means,
(32:31):
in its basic sense, to come outof hiding and so to know God in
this in a truth sense, to knowthe truth about God is not an
intellectual ascent and concept.
It's to realize that you arehiding. We're all hiders. I
(32:53):
mean, that's the add up. That'sthe garden story. We're hiding
from God. That's our originalsin. Is hiding, and we're hiding
from God. And then so the thewhole story, the Bible is a hide
and seek story. But that's why,that's why I hate the language
of seekers. No, we are notseekers. We're the hiders. We
shouldn't have been doing seekersensitive worship. We should
(33:13):
have been doing higher sensitiveworship. God's the seeker. The
whole story of the Bible is Godis calling us out of our hiding
places to come into the light ofGod's presence and to enter into
that relationship, that trueknowing God that we were afraid
of. And that's where the mostsacred, the second most sacred
(33:38):
word in Hebrew, most sacredwords you can't say, which is
Yahweh. You know it's so sacredyou don't speak it. But the
second one is henani, H, I, N, En, i, which means when you come
out of hiding, or God calls usout of hiding, we come into the
light of God's presence. And wesay these words that that
(33:59):
Abraham said, and Isaiah said,and Jeremiah said, and they all
And Moses said, Hanani literallymeans, here I am. So you're
saying to the great I am, here Iam. And that's that's truth.
That's the truth of knowing God,not knowing about God Joshua,
(34:24):
but knowing God. And the powerof that moment of being in the
light of God's presence andrealizing that the only hiding
place then we have is in leaningon the arms of Jesus. Is in the
is in the bosom of Jesus, in thepresence of God. That's our only
hiding place. And so to come outof all the places that we're
(34:46):
hiding, we're all hiders. We'rehiding from God, we're hiding
from each other, we're hidingfrom ourselves, we're hiding
from creation. And to come outof that hiding into that
(35:56):
relationship, that numinousrelationship of knowing God,
that's that's the life of truththat's beautiful.
Joshua Johnson (36:07):
It reminds me of the story of the lost son as he
goes into hiding, right? He'slike, I'm broken. I'm going to
hiding. And then he turns backand says, Hey, even the servants
have it better with my father.
So he turns back to the Father,comes out of hiding, and he
finally receives the embrace ofthe Father. Gorgeous story, and
(36:28):
that's the perfect thing thatJesus tells the story of this,
the hidden one into this nowrelationship of knowing the
father, by
Leonard Sweet (36:41):
the way, that you go to any Literature Department
in the world. I don't carewhether it's you know what
continent you're on, but if youask, what is the greatest short
story ever told? And Mo they'remost likely to tell you the most
perfect short story ever told isthe story of the prodigal son. I
mean Jesus, the masterstoryteller tells us the
(37:04):
greatest tells the greatestshort story ever in the history
of language and literature. It'show beautiful that story is.
Joshua Johnson (37:11):
How do you do this? So as somebody who is
immersed, you're immersed inwork. So writing over 70 books,
you're immersed in words. How doyou get to a place of moving
towards narrative, metaphor,story, so that you can get to a
(37:32):
place of knowing God, and notjust knowing about God, trying
to use all your words to try andfigure him out.
Leonard Sweet (37:39):
I have a former student that is now in charge of
a publishing company calledinvite resources. His name is
Len Wilson, but he coined aword. I used to see myself as a
word Smith, Joshua, somebodyplayed with I'm now trying to be
an image Smith. That's histhat's his word, and it's a
(38:00):
major shift in in thinking. So Idon't see myself immersed in
words. I see myself immersed inmetaphors and stories. In fact,
I don't in my house. I refuse tohow loud nothing in my house
that doesn't have a story,because when you just I don't
have stuff. I mean, my houselooks like it's stuffed, but for
(38:24):
me, there's no stuff. It's all astory. So you immerse yourself
in stories. Here's where therubber hits the road. Here that
rankles some people when I saythis, when we talk about the
Bible, is the authoritativequote Word of God. All right,
the Bible is the inspired Wordof God. But we got to change our
(38:49):
we got to start thinking about,these are the inspired metaphors
of God. These are the inspiredstories of God. These are,
forget about the words. Theseare authoritative, inspired. I
don't I don't have a problemwith infallible. I have problem
with inerrant. But these arethese metaphors that Jesus gives
(39:13):
us that are in our story, thesestories that he gives us, these
are authoritative, inspired. Sowe need to look at metaphor and
story and narrative as we usedto look at word and understand
the power is not the power isnot in the Word. By the way, the
worst translation of logos isword. That's why David Bentley
(39:33):
Hart refuses to translate logosand anything other than just got
to learn the word logos. He saidthere's certain Greek and Hebrew
words you just got to learn. AndI agree with him on that, but it
is really what does it mean? Ibelieve in the inspired,
authoritative and fallible storyof God, which is a whole
(39:58):
different way of of kind ofthinking about so I don't see
myself as a wordsmith anymore.
Is I love words. I love to playwith words. But for me, the
words are embellishing andembroidering and embossing a
metaphor and a narrative.
Joshua Johnson (40:15):
One of the things that you you write, you
said the kingdom, which now youmay be using some Jubilee
language, but the kingdom is notbuilt but entered, and its
doorway is the imagination ofthe human one. So what does it
look like for us to inhabit theimagination of the human one of
(40:36):
Jesus, to enter into
Leonard Sweet (40:38):
His kingdom.
Well, this is where the Jesus isa Jew. He lives out of a Hebrew
imagination. That's where AndyStanley and I part here. This is
part of our imagination, too.
The whole first testament, theword that we we translate as
right in Genesis one. It isgood. The word Hebrew word is
(40:59):
tow, T, O, V, but it's, it's acomplex word, and it's, I think
here about the word Maranatha.
You know, we we translateMaranatha as Come Lord Jesus,
but it actually Maranatha inAramaic, which is an Aramaic
word, has three tenses. It meansthe one who has come is coming
now and will come again. So ithas past, present, future in it
(41:22):
that one word, so you can eithersay grace, you and peace,
brothers and sisters from onewho is the one who was the one
who is to come, or you can justsay Maranatha. And it's the same
with that word Tov, that Hebrewword Tov TLV, because it means
not just good. It meansbeautiful and true. It has three
(41:44):
different meanings. So you'vegot all three of them at the
same time, and we just translateit as good. But for Aquinas,
supposedly the greatesttheologian in history,
Christianity, he The bigquestion is, how do you know
Jesus is present? How do yourecognize Jesus? Which is what
(42:04):
the disciples couldn't do in hispost resurrection appearances.
They every time they could, theyfail to recognize him. So Thomas
is totally obsessed with, how dowe recognize him today? And he
came up. Up with these, what hecalls the three transcendentals
of being. But really, all he'sdoing is rediscovering Tov and
his three transcendentals ofbeing is, are that Jesus, you
(42:30):
would look for the good, thebeautiful and the true. And when
you find the good, the beautifultrue, you find Jesus, but wait a
minute, you got to find and theycalled it the correspondence of
the transcendentals. You got tofind all three together. Because
the the beauty is not aHollywood beauty that's by
itself. You know, beauty has gotto be good and it's got to be
(42:55):
true as well. I mean, so thesame week, Mother Teresa and
Princess Diana died. Who's themost beautiful person in the
world? Well, everybody saidPrincess Diana, but in a toe
sense, no, the most beautifulperson in the world was Mother
Teresa. Because it's not aHollywood beauty. It's a beauty
that's good and it's a beautythat's true. So part of what it
(43:17):
means to live out of theimagination of Jesus, who's
always looking for Tov I mean,so you're looking to bring
beauty and goodness and truthinto the world, and you're
looking to bring them alltogether as one. And so you're
really living out of a Tovimagination. So are you making
for me, every annual reportought to be a Tove report. Is
(43:41):
not what don't tell me yourstatistics. Tell me your
stories, your stories of wheredid you bring goodness and
beauty and truth into yourneighborhood? Where's the beauty
and goodness and truth youbrought into your church? What
did the church do to Tove theworld forward this year? So it
that's the imagination of Jesus.
It's show me the beauty. And Ido think, for the apologetics of
(44:06):
the of the 21st Century and our22nd century kids, the ultimate
apologetics is not a rationalone anymore, Joshua, it's a an
esthetic apologetics. Theultimate apologetics today,
isn't esthetics. Show me thebeauty of Jesus, show me the
goodness of Jesus, show me thetruth of Jesus, not rationally,
(44:32):
comprehend and understand whoJesus is. No, show me. Show me
the esthetics. That's theultimate apologetics, and that's
what it means to live out of aTove imagination.
Joshua Johnson (44:44):
What do you think the church would look like
if we actually inhabited thecreativity and imagination of
Jesus? Where should we go fromhere as the church?
Leonard Sweet (44:58):
Let the beauty of Jesus be seen in us. Let the
truth of Jesus be seen in us.
Let the goodness of Jesus beseen in us and live out of out
of that imagination. So whatdoes it mean to become beautiful
again and good again and trueagain? And so that's where I
think Jesus leaves us, and hehas an artisans, if you will, a
(45:19):
gardener's imagination. I mean,he's the last Adam. And so what
does it mean to garden yourlife, to look at your life as a
garden that grows things ofbeauty and goodness and truth,
and to live out of thatgardener's imagination. That's
the world of professiongardening. And what does it mean
to rediscover by the way, Marydidn't recognize him because she
(45:43):
thought he was the gardener. HeIn other words, as a semiotic
flair. We're back in the gardenwhere we can walk and talk and
and be with God again like neverbefore. And the veil was he
himself took the became the veilhis body was rent and broken so
that we could enter that innerHoly of Holies again and know
(46:03):
God. I just know about God.
Joshua Johnson (46:07):
This has been fantastic. Lynn, I have a couple
of quick questions at the end. Ilike to ask people. One, if you
go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would you give
Leonard Sweet (46:18):
live each moment as if it were your first day the
rest of your life and your lastday of the rest of your life.
Hmm, that's good advice, Alphaand Omega every day.
Joshua Johnson (46:27):
Yeah, that's really good advice. Anything
you've been reading or watchinglately you could recommend.
Leonard Sweet (46:33):
I just was reading this morning. This is a
book written by a Yale professorcalled they flew, a history of
the impossible. And he looks atstories of any it's a post
critical approach Joshua. And sohe doesn't take it and say,
okay, these people thatsupposedly lived out of the
(46:56):
miraculous didn't really do it.
Let's give a modern critique ofit. He just lets them tell their
story, and tells the story ofthose who told stories about
them. And so that's the one thatI was reading this morning. So
they flew
Joshua Johnson (47:10):
so this book that is going to come out, maker
mender, minder master, when's itgoing to be out for people to
get? And how can people connectwith what you're doing and
you're for Christmas before?
Christmas before? Yeah, allright, so
Leonard Sweet (47:27):
you have a Christmas week all by the way,
called the star still beckons.
It's my first advent Christmas,New Year's book. So it's a
little, little, tiny thing. Itmakes a great gift to book. So
that's a my first adventChristmas tide book.
Joshua Johnson (47:44):
The star still back. It's already out, and
that's out. Could get that?
Where would you like to pointpeople to so they can get your
work they can buy your yourwhole library of books? Yeah?
Leonard Sweet (47:56):
Just go to Amazon. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Or
our hearts and minds bookstoresis my favorite indie bookstore,
hearts and minds. So eitherhearts and minds bookstore,
hearts and minds.com or just goto Amazon and they'll get it to
you. It's been great being withyou. Joshua, thank you for
Joshua Johnson (48:13):
inviting Lynn.
Thank you. Thank you for thisconversation. Really enjoyed it,
really going deep into theimagination of Jesus and what
that looks like for us. So thankyou. Lynn, it was fantastic.
Leonard Sweet (48:23):
Thank you. Thank you. You.
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Betrayal: Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a brand new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-4 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.