17. Exploring Our Sexual Identities ft. Karen Zheng (MX Asian American) - Part 1 - Shit We Don't Tell Mom

Episode Transcript
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Angie & Kristy (00:00):
I had found your podcast when I was doing

(00:03):
research around Asian-Americandriven podcast.
Oh my God.
Really?
Yeah.

Karen Zheng (00:08):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
That is, that is what

happened.

welcome to another

episode.
If shit, we don't tell momtoday, we have, I have Karen
Zang, with us and she also hostsa podcast herself.
and Asian Americans.
So check her out Karen, whydon't we kick it off by having
you introduce yourself a littlebit, and maybe tell our audience
what your podcast is all

about.
hi everyone.
My name is Karen.
I am a queer first generation,Chinese American current
undergraduate student atDartmouth college.
and I am the host of MX AsianAmerican, which is a podcast
where I bring on guests to talkabout, all things, Asian
American, like mental illness,like this podcast, but also

(01:21):
other stuff like, pop culture.
Queerness food, et cetera.

What does the MX stand for?

it's just like a gender neutral term for mr or
mrs.

Wow.
Like w O M X, N yeah.
Cool.
Yeah.
Cause you and I are both like.
You know, we're hetero, we'relike not really that familiar
with that space.
so thank you for educating.
Yes.
And I think that's one of thebiggest reasons why I really
wanted to have you on the showand we wanted to have you on the

(01:54):
show is because we want to beable to have a platform to share
more stories from differentvoices within the Asian
diaspora, because it's not justone color.
Right.
But a lot of times in media,that's how we're portrayed as.
Peanut all with one brush.
So

we'd

love to learn more from you, you know, from
your stories, your background,and yeah.

honestly, it was, it was kind of like, spontaneous
kind of thing.
I, I follow Matt have Avella onYouTube.
He's like a content creator.
He has his own podcast calledground-up show.
One day a thought came to me andI was like, Hmm, he, yes, start
this podcast.
So why can't I just, or podcaststoo?

(02:38):
and I wasn't really in the AsianAmerican podcast space, I would
say, but I've been seeing like alot of Asian American podcasts,
like coming up recently.
but yeah, I just got the ideaall of a sudden, and then I
asked my school for some fundsand yeah.
they bought all my equipment forme, which is nice.

That is so awesome.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
We ask people for some money.

Yeah.
Schools have a lot of money.
You could just finesse your way,right?
Yeah.

That's really cool.
what are you studying at school?

I'm an English and creative writing major.
mainly I write poetry.

Oh, wow.
I'm not good with poetry at all.
Really garbage with pushy.

Just

it's such a, well, it's like a timeless art
form, right?
And those of us

who can

consume it.
Great.
But those of us who can createit even better.
So that's really amazing.
So I noticed your last name is.
Jen, right.

That's it?
Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.
I was born here, so my parentsare immigrants here.
Right?
Mix.

Yeah.
Okay.
So you're first generationAmerican, yes.
Yeah.
That's right.
So we are the same, Karen, youand I.
My parents immigrated here.
Andy, she was born in China.
And then moved here when she wasreally young.
So she counts herself as 1.5generation immigrant.
Yeah.

Hey, okay.

I know it's really confusing, right?
so many different phrases, I waslike Asian American, which, you
know, even though Christina andI are located in Canada, we
still consider ourselves AsianAmerican because our culture.
Close.
Right.
And then there's like ChineseAmerican and then there's just
like Asian diaspora in general.
but we're like a huge community,you know, like in every country

(04:28):
I've ever been to, I've alwaysseen some sort of Chinese or
Asian population.
So I think it's really cool thatwe can connect,

from

across the continent and otherwise we would
have never met each other.
Right.
So I think

that's exactly.

Speaking of meeting each other.
Oh my goodness.
I actually don't really rememberhow we connected.
I started to listen to yourpodcast and that's how.
That's how I discovered you.
And, and then I feel like we mayhave one.
I don't know.
I reached out one of us reachedout to

the other person and then we just started
chatting.
Yeah.
I remember seeing your posts on,I don't remember what platform
was cause there's so many groupsnow.
but I think it was either agentcreative network or Asian hustle
network or

subtle Asian pod casters.
So what are those?

And I saw, y'alls post about y'alls a podcast and
I was like really interested.
cause I feel like we really needto talk about mental illness in
the community.
and other taboo topics.
Yeah.
So I, you know, DM Christie andwe talked.

So what would you consider as a taboo topic
that you would love for societyto be.
Talking about more of likeuntapped

realized, mental illness for one and second.
I'm actually looking for someoneas a guest on my podcast.
Talk about sex.
Yes.
Knowing that yourselves, andthen masturbation, especially
female masturbation.
I think that's really important.
what else in like sex education,stuff like that?

(06:05):
Yeah.

Yeah.
I mean, honestly, everythingI've learned about sex is
through media.
Like when I was a teenager, Ihad a subscription to 17
magazine.
I had Cosmo, Whoa.
That's I was 16 year oldChristie with like 16 days to

(06:26):
pleasure a man, which is theworst, front page

title.

That's what it was.
Yeah.
remember being too likeembarrassed to buy cosmos
because I'm like from page all,it's all these things like how
to pleasure him, how to do thisfor him.
And I'm always like what Idon't, well, one, like I kind of
want to know, but also I don'twant to just buy that and hold
that so shameful.

(06:53):
I brought it to

you.
I got it.
And share with all your friends.
Totally.
Yeah.
I would like flip through and doall the quizzes, you know, like
read all the 21 ways.
Oh my God.

one thing I really appreciated about 17
magazine was that.
It would just talk about thingslike what does a healthy vagina
look like?
take a mirror and go stand inyour bathroom, put one leg on
the toilet and like look downthere.
Right.
And.
My mom came into my room one dayand 17 magazine, 17 magazine,
pretty innocent on the frontpage.

(07:29):
It's not Cosmo, but my mom justsat on the floor of my room and
stuff, flipping through one ofthem.
immediately, my face was turningred and I'm like, Oh my God,
what is poverty?
And then she kind of looks up atme and I'm like, Oh my gosh.
She was like, This is veryeducational magazine is teaching
you this stuff, but I'm

glad she had such a positive

reaction to that because I think if my parents.
So anything related to sex,they'll be like, don't have sex.
You're going to die.
You're pregnant, die, you know,or you are unpure and no one's
going to want you.
And like all these other things,you know, have you ever heard

(08:12):
sex, sex?

Okay.

Chatting with your parents about sex before.

no, not at all.
They do not under the words.
it's kind of funny because theynever talk about sex or anything
related to that.
all they've talked about waslike the period talk, which is
like, Oh, you might startgetting red stuff down there.
They don't talk to you about sexat all.
But then when you're at thecertain ripe age of a woman,
they expect you to have a familyand get pregnant, but they never

(08:43):
tell you how to do it.
I'm just like,

how, what, why?
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
And then also, like you're notallowed to date.
Yeah, exactly.
And then all of a sudden theyexpect you to be married.

Like what's up with

that.
It's like, it's like a thingwhere they're like, don't date
during school.
and then when you graduate,they're like, where's my
grandchild.
You're like, you're like mom,like you're skipping many, many
steps.
They're going from a studiousVirgin to a childbearing mother.
Like it's skipping a few steps.
But I also think like, I don'tknow.

(09:19):
Like, I feel like, like, yes,Chinese parents are very, what
is that word?
Very like, Avoidant of thistopic.
Hmm.
But I feel like it's not justChinese parents, like Chinese
parents, especially, but I feellike just like the society we
grew up in like Christie it'slike how horrible that sounds
until you pointed out now.
Like how, when we were younger,I don't know how old you are,

(09:42):
Karen, but when we wereteenagers, the adult magazines
that women would write reading,like, Oh, like, this is the
stuff that we're going to bedoing one day.
Like, this is what.
These are the women that we lookup to, this is what they're
doing.
How would you please the man and16 steps or whatever, like how
to, how to, I don't know, makehow to look good naked, like

(10:03):
stuff like that.
Right?
Like, and as a teenager, likegrowing up, you just think,
okay, well, like what you saidabout like female pleasure or
female masturbate, we wereconsuming all this media where
it's telling us like, Hey,sexist for the man.
And it's only exploring the oneside of it too.
Like it's only targeting, youknow, or putting out the message

(10:24):
that women or young girls, younggirls that sounds really
pedophilic

young women, young

women, young women, it's like putting out the
message that, you know, our solepurpose.

Is to

pleasure the man.
And it's just about men.
It's not about ourselves andit's not about other women.
It's not about anybody else on,you know, whenever identity that
you identify with.
It's just a heterosexual womanneeds to pleasure a heterosexual
man and the entire magazineevery single month.
That is the goal.

(11:06):
That is what you need to do.
And that's the norm.
Yeah.
And like, I'm curious, what wasit like for you to see this
stuff?
Or like, what does it even likefor you now?

So I think we grew up in kind of different
generations.
I'm Tony.

Oh my goodness.
So young, we need to learnbecause gen Z is, are like so
smart.

Wait.
No, I do not consider myself genZ.
Ooh.
I'm

so sorry.
I just totally threw a label atyou.
And now

you're fine.
because I like to say that I'man old person in a young
person's body, but so I grew upconsuming.
We didn't have, well, I mean, wehad magazines, but we didn't buy
magazines or stuff like that.
but my first, like, encounterwith anything sexual, I think
is, Jaqui Monga, which is like,That was when I had my first

(12:01):
sexual awakening and it wasgreat.
and then after that I startedwatching porn, but of course all
the porn is like similar to whatyou said and like what was in
the magazines.
It was all.
Much more like, male dominatedand male oriented.
so I watched straight porn too,but I don't watch the guy.

(12:21):
Of course.
but now today's, I don't knowwhy I still feel like.
Not comfortable watching alesbian porn for some reason.
And I don't know if that's likefrom childhood trauma or, being
closeted or anything like that.

What do you mean by childhood trauma?

I am still closeted from my family and, my mom, my
mom has like.
I think she has suspicions of,me not being straight.
cause I'm very, like,

I

don't know how to say my appearance is very male.
and she has told me on likemultiple occasions.
Let me think.
I think she said before, like aslong as you don't like girls
it's OK.
And then, another time she said,As long as you know, you're a
girl.
Cause I, I think we were arguingabout like wearing men's
clothes.
it's fine.

(13:20):
yeah, stuff like that.

She's like

subtle, subtle stuff that she says to me, that
I still remember.
it

sounds like it's like, she's trying

to accept

you from your exterior, like through your
appearance, but then she's alsotrying to be like, I don't know,
planting seeds or like sowingseeds into you that like, you
know, as long as you're using.
Still know your place in society

should be doing and what

people you should date.
She's like trying to beprogressive.
Like it's okay if you're

not wearing dresses,

but no.
Yeah, that sounds, yeah, thatsounds really tough.
Like, what was it like for youjust hearing that from your mom?

Well, like.
at the moment, of course, I wasjust like, fuck

on inside.
Of course.

and then usually I don't reply, because like one, I
don't want to lie to, like, it'skind of like lying by omission,
but I just like don't reply.
and then I remember this oneother time.
I think we were at this dim sumplace and enjoying dim sum.
And it was like, Recently afterthe Supreme court decision to

(14:41):
legalize, same sex marriage.
And then I was talking to herabout it and then she was just
like, that's so disgusting.
What the heck?
And then I was just like, okay,just going to eat my egg tart
and

yeah.
I'm sorry.
I cannot imagine what that'slike to hear that from your mom.

Yeah.
But, I don't really talk thatmuch to my dad.
We're not emotionally close atall.
so like the only kind of, Idon't know how to call this, but
like subtle, aggressive, passiveaggressive kind of things are
come from my mom, but I love mymom a lot.
So it's kind of like a balancingact between those two.

Yeah.
And this is something that like,I don't think NG and I could
even come remotely close totrying to understand

what it could be like, especially cause

from what it sounds like, you know, you, you
and mom have, have a decentrelationship, like you're close
and you love her very much.
But then she's saying a lot ofthese hurtful things that is
directly.
Like attacking you and youridentity and who you are as a
person.
And that's, you know, you, you,

I would assume that

we would always want to have our friends and
family and people that we loveto accept us for who we are.
Cause that's just, that's who weare.
Right.
But so much of that is like how,how, how I know.
Right.
I just want to say, like, Ithink.
Even the way that you're talkingabout this now, like to us, I'm

(16:16):
like, I think I do see what youmean by like, you're an old
person, young person's thought,but I think you are very mature
in handling that.
Like, you still love your momvery much, even though she said
these hurtful things and youdon't take it personally.
because that's her, that's likeher.
Her prejudice and her,

her

outdated thoughts.
Yeah.

But of course I went through like a long period
heard of reckoning before I gotto this place.
I think also a part of thetrauma I had was like, I had
some like internal homophobia.
Yeah.
of course growing up in, in afamily that was like just a
family, but like a society thatwas like very, very hetero

(17:01):
dominated.
It's like, I knew I was gay.
I say gay as in lesbian, but Iuse that term just by the way.
when I was like five inkindergarten, I knew I was gay.
Cause I was like, Oh my God, Ilike this classmate, but she's a
girl.
and up until my.
My middle school years, I wasactually in denial of that

(17:24):
still.
And was like, I told my friendsthat I had a crush because I had
concocted a crush, out of likethis, this, like I made up this
crush that I had on this guyfriend, Cause I wanted to make
myself like.

Like this boy.

And so I told all my friends, you know, cause
accountability, right?
Yeah.
I told all my friends and I waslike, okay.
And then, try to make myself,you don't like this boy and

it didn't work.
It was so bad.

I don't know.
I'm like nothing came of it.
Cause I didn't like tell himthat I like him or anything like
that.
I just like told my friends.
I liked this boy.
And then whenever, like wetalked to this boy or something
like that, I would like try toact like, you know, I was into
it.
Okay.
I would be like, Oh my God, ourhands touched, blah, blah, blah.
But I was just like, Oh my God,So, that was an experience, And

(18:22):
then until like my freshman yearof high school, I officially
came out to like all my friendsand it was like via Facebook.
And everyone, all my friends arereally supportive and stuff like
that.
Oh, I also, okay.
I was actually a devoutChristian for a while.
It was like 10 ish, maybe around10 ish, but.
It

was a few years that

was really devoutly Christian because, I had to go
to Chinese school It was like achurch held Chinese school.
So I had to like attend and allthe church services as well.
In the beginning, I was like,really skeptical of like this
God or whatever, no offense toanyone who is religious.
and then over time I got reallyinto it.
And then.
Like I prayed every day.

(19:04):
I read the Bible every day.
I didn't curse, et cetera, etcetera.
But then I think after a while Istarted rereading the Bible that
I was like, am I going to hell?
And then realize that the Biblewas kind of like, Very shitty
and then turned agnostic.

When did you realize that?
Like how, how long did you getinto before you realized you're
like this isn't.
For me anymore.

I actually started charting school when I was like
six, maybe.
and then it was like thebeginning of middle school,
middle school was a bad thing.
Like fifth, sixth grade ish thatI was like very devoutly
Christian.
and I like, I think seventhgrade to like eighth grade, I
started like realizing.

(19:56):
Maybe things aren't what theBible says or what the Bible
says.
Isn't like true everywhere.

Yeah.
actually, you know what?
I used to be Christian too,cause he doesn't even know that
even though we're calledtogether, I was baptized when I
was 12.

Oh.

And, and you know what?
It was probably, I was probablya sign, but when I was being
baptized, I slipped and fell.
Oh The pastor was so like, I'mlike standing and then he lowers
like the top half, but then Ithink one of my foot slipped so
that my entire body just likewhat into the water.
And then she had to help me getup because.

(20:38):
Yeah, it was, it was not eventhat deep, but he had to redo
it.
And you know what, it's probablya sign that like this girl, nah,
this girl baptized, you cannotbe baptized.
And you know what the samething, like I used to go to
church every Sunday.
Just me too.
Like not my parents didn't go,my parents are agnostic.
my mom was like, okay, you cango to church.

(20:59):
Just don't tell your grandma.
Cause my grandma's a Buddhistand my grandma's dad was a tower
priest.
Like my family is like all overthe place religiously.
So I chose to go to church on myown because my.
Best friend at the time went tochurch and my best friend was
being baptized.
And I'm like, I don't know.

Oh my goodness.

I know, I know.
I know it's so disrespectful ofme, but, I still remember the
pastor was like, do you acceptJesus as your savior or
something like that?
And I'm like, huh.
Okay for a good year or so, Ireally did buy into it because
my pastor and his family, theyare lovely, lovely people.

(21:42):
Like they're the nicest peopleI've ever met.
They really cared about me.
Like they truly cared about meso my church like helped me a
lot in a lot of different areas,but, there were definitely some
things that I didn't agree with.
Like it's very, very likejudgemental.
They always try to make me like,kind of tone down my

(22:03):
personality.
so I started to be like, Oh, itcan't really be myself at
church.
it was like nothing compared tobeing queer and being religious
because there's so much, Nonegative, negativity from some,
some religious groups.
but, but I remember I saw goingto church because I got a
boyfriend and I was like, Oh myGod, what am I just burst into

(22:24):
flames?
When I walk into church forhaving premarital sex, like,

Oh my

God, Karen.
As a person who, who is queerand someone you mentioned like
the first time.
You realized that you likedgirls was when you were five
years old, but then you weregoing to church when you were
six and like, you know, and, andyou got really into it.
So I could only imagine thatthere's a lot of friction

(22:50):
between that.
Like, can you walk us throughthe journey of what that was
like for you and your childhood?

Yeah.
definitely a lot of friction,but honestly I think at such a
young age, I honestly don't knowwhat the Bible is talking about
at all.
I just kinda went through themotions of like a Sunday school
sermons and

stuff like that.

but I was always in denial.
I think of my sexuality.
and like feeling like.
I also had like a period of timewhere, in the very beginning I
was in denial, like.
I'm definitely not homo.
I am definitely hetero.
And then over time it becamelike, okay, I accept that I'm
homo, but why is this thing thatI can't change?

(23:33):
why can't I just make myselfhetero was like another phase
that I had.
And, and now I'm just like,whatever.
but yeah, their church, I think,Honestly, the things that they
taught during Sunday school,maybe I wasn't just, I wasn't
paying attention.
It was just me, but I feel likethe things they taught weren't,
that against my identity, it wasmore when I like personally read

(23:57):
through like every word of theBible, and realized that I,
yeah, I did not belong.

Well, you read the entire Bible.
I

mean, I read it, but.
I don't remember any of it.

Yeah.
I remember like having to likeSunday school, we had to like
memorize excerpts.
And my, my pastor's wife gave mea Bible.
Never touched it.
I don't even know where it isanymore.
I

know exactly where my Bible,

where is it?
It's actually in my

bedside drawer.

take it out and like, no, I don't know.

I, I don't, I don't know.

I don't know why it's been there and this was
always weird.
Like that Christianity like isso.
Prevalent to our, to us, likefirst gen Canadian and
Americans.
I

don't

know if maybe this is like part of a
simulation into Western culture,maybe.
Yeah.
It's like, it's like, it'salmost like a, a simulation mean
like a simulation

simulation, I think to be in a video game.

Yes.
Like assimilation,

assimilation, like, like, like

dig into the society.

(25:57):
Yeah.
Okay.
So we had no idea.
We're going to talk aboutreligion.
Sorry.
No, please.
Don't apologize.
I love it.
You remember where this camefrom now?
I'm like trying to trail all theway back.
Cause we were talking aboutporn.

Oh yeah.

Hey, I still can't really get into lesbian
porn lesbian.
Porn is because like a lot of itis catered towards heterosexual
men.
Yes.

Right?

Again, like if the lesbian porn is not for
lesbians it's for men.
Yeah.

I literally, okay.
I only watch lesbian pornliterally to learn stuff and not
to masturbate.
part of it is also because Ifeel more comfortable watching
Asian sex, Asian porn, but it'snot available in America.
It was not like widely availablein America.
It's mostly just like whitepeople, black people, et cetera.

(26:53):
Or if it does exist,

it's very fetishize.
Oh my God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

and I'm just like, let's see anyone like this at
all

in my lab.
it's, it's very fetishized andthere's no.
I mean that's porn in general.
I like it's all fetishize.
And you said that you watchlesbian porn to learn.
Do you find that it's helpful?

Who did

they, Oh, I asked this.
The reason why I asked this isbecause like a lot of hetero
porn is very unrealistic and.
like stop using porn as abenchmark.

Yeah.
I, I actually started learningreally from pouring when I,
after like, Post sex.
I was like, this is not likewhat I saw on TV.
You know what I mean?

It was like

when I was in the moment.
so that went back to like lookat it.
and it was mostly for likedifferent ways to do things
rather than like, I don't know.
I don't know how to explain,but.
I think it was like in a, in asense helpful, but like I knew
it wasn't like what they showedon the video in real life.

(28:00):
Cause like I had already doneit.
So I knew that it wasn't

like that.
I remember when I was living inChina.
And porn is banned in China.
I had like, was really paranoidand I didn't want to watch porn
and get worded.
Like how would that be?
I went to China to do aninternship for school, and then
I get deported for watchingporn.
Like.

(28:23):
That would be really bad.

She has dope stories,

really bad.
I mean, I had a VPN andeverything.
I had to have a VPN, right.
Like climb any kind of wall.
So I was like, what's analternative to porn.
So I started like reading, likeadult comics, it's like drawings
and these are like, Artistic.
A lot of these artists arewomen.
And I remember like comingacross a lot of, a lot of

(28:47):
contacts, 10 for the queercommunity, because it's actually
written and, and created byqueer people for queer people.
And I thought that was reallybeautiful.
a lot of, a lot of them, likethey, they draw realistic body
images and they there's, there'sdialogue, there's storylines.
this is a lot of stuff that youcannot find in, in.

(29:10):
Porn at all?
Like, is this something we canlink in the

show?
Yeah.

I want to see it.
I highly recommend it.
I think, one of them is calledcurvy and it's and it's about
this woman who falls intoanother dimension and like she
has a sexual awakening inanother dimension.
Yo, yo, karen, are you findingthat, you know, in, in porn or
in like, I don't know, mediastuff that there's more

(29:40):
representation from the queercommunity, like now today in
2020, or

compared

to when you first discovered porn or first
started watching porn.
I

think definitely.
Yeah.
There's, an increase inrepresentation and I think it's
true for like a lot of differentcommunities, like the Asian
American community a lot next,et cetera.

Yeah,

that reminds me actually, the is related to
Christie's question.
I.
Like now I find Chinese porn inAsian porn on PornHub, and
that's like a totally differentchange for me.
It's like, if you type inChinese, it actually comes out
with like a Chinese video.
and I've done that for

Chinese, like in the Chinese characters

and Chinese characters.
And like, it's like mainly onproduced porn videos.
I was like, Oh my God.
That's so cool.

But yeah, that's.
Remember that.
And what are your thoughts?
What are your reviews?
Is it a rave or is it a not sogreat?

I mean, it's pretty great for people who want to see
that, which is like me, causelike I'm not into Western porn

we need, we need all of our listeners to go
search for Chinese porn onPornHub because demand will
drive up supply.
Let's let, what is it called?
Like

creative movement

of Chinese based sport.
Yeah.
let's mobilize our listeners.
So should listeners, if you'relistening to this and you're
like, this is not the kind ofepisode I signed up for.
Is that how I'm not going tolie.
Like my understanding aboutwhat.
The sexual culture in China is,is, is very, very weak.
Like, I don't know anythingabout it.

(31:23):
And when I was in China, Ihooked up with two locals, two
very, very differentexperiences.
And I'm still confused.
Like, I don't think I, ithelped, like I was doing it for
a research, but like come to anysort of conclusion.

Okay, wait, now we want to know give us a trailer.
And then like

the first guy I hooked up with was a guy who
happened to have a, like a, likea rental property in my
building.

So

he was very like, you know, RA, he had.
Okay.
Few properties.
He drove two different cars andthey were both nice cars.
And he was very much likelooking for like a trophy wife
kind of type.
And he said he was intrigued byme because I had an aura.
Aura is just like beingdifferent because I'm Western.

(32:22):
Nice.

You speak in Chinese.

Yeah.
I did speak in Chinese.
He said that in Chinese, he'slike, how you cheat?
Hmm.
And I was like in the middle ofcarrying my like 34th box from
Taobao upstairs.
So I don't know what he meant bythat, but I think I was just
doing my own thing.
And then, yeah, so we went on a.
Few dates.
And he became really clingy andreally needy.

(32:47):
And he said he wanted to marryme.
And then he said that he wasgoing to immigrate to Canada to
marry me.
And I was like, He once was likecalled me up, I was like, let's
go watch a movie.
I'm like, no, I'm with myfriends.
I'm busy.
And he got really angry.
That I wouldn't put him beforemy friends.
And that's when I started triedto end things that he just, he

(33:10):
was really confused.
He was like, I've never metanyone like you like you're.
So I'm like, what is going on?
So that was my first experience.
The second experience I waswalking through.
the city I was walking with somegroceries and some, like some
dude came up to me, asked me formoney and that never happens in

(33:30):
Canada or anywhere else I'vebeen to.
and I was like, Oh, this isinteresting.
Like, so he asked me for mynumber.
I gave him my, we chat.
And then he was in town for likea couple of weeks.
and then he was actually, Iguess, maybe because he's from
like a bigger city from acoastal city that happens to be
a bit more international.
and he was a bit closer to myage on like the other guy who

(33:53):
was.
So he was very like nonchalant.
And he was like, I heardAmerican women are very loose
and I was like, Whoa, like, likethese are two completely
different.
This does not help me identifywhat dating or sexual culture is
like at all.
But I mean, that's the thingthough, right?
Like I don't think we can.

(34:14):
Again, take the same brush andpaint a whole community, a whole
society of what they're like,just, just based off of that,

those two stories, you can

tell that there's completely different
experiences and what peoplewant.
And so it's just, it's the sameacross the board.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I mean, it's like kindof the same in America too.
There's like totally differentexperiences that you can have
too, but that just means youneed to increase your sample
size.
So.
No, yeah.
But like the stereotype is thatlike Westerners are more, I
don't know, out there.
And like, I dunno more rowdy,like with like snacks and stuff.

(34:53):
And like Eastern nerves are like

more subtle

and like take things slower.
I don't know.
But

yeah, maybe, but also like biggest population,
so, Oh no.
English and also means biggestvariety, right?
I know you mentioned in yourpodcasts, like you, you love to
talk about mental health andthings like that.

(35:23):
Right.
So I wanted to pivot and justask

you from

your experience, what was, you know, like what's
your experience with mentalhealth?

Oh, my God.
I think we need another hour.
My parents and I never talkedabout mental health at all.
as I think is true of a lot ofAsian families, but I had.
I had depression and anxiety.
I mean, I still have anxiety,but, and like a phase of

(35:55):
workaholism, I still kind ofhave workaholism and the,

what else?

I had Andrew SEO for awhile.
And when I had anorexia, it wasactually the first time that I
sat my mom down to talk aboutstuff.
and it was also during like aself harm phase two that I
heard, And I told her that Ihave this thing called anorexia
and it makes me not want to eatanything.

(36:20):
And then I had been likeskipping a lot of meals already
for like a month or so.
And she's just like, whateverthis is teenager phase or
whatever.
Like she didn't really ask,

but,

I sat her down.
It was kind of like my breakingpoint, I think.
And then I told her about it andthen Jeff had took it very well.
She was like, we were all, wewere both crying and everything.
She was like, if you need to goto a doctor, we can go to a
doctor.
And I was like, Oh my God.
Because I knew like at that timewe didn't even have health
insurance.
so it would be a lot of money,but yeah, that was like the

(36:55):
first time we kind of talkedabout it.
and yeah, I think that's aboutit.
I don't think we talked about itever again.
I had interacts SIA, my junior,my like junior to senior year,
like summer transition period inhigh school.
And honestly looking back, Ithink part of it was because I

(37:18):
was, you know, like low key,toxic relationship, because like
my partner at the time was alsokind of low key, had an eating
disorder.
but yeah, I was like for three,four months, I think.
And then, I'm still recovering,I would say from it, but it's
like almost fully recovered, butthere's like a lot of side

(37:40):
effects that come with that,like, period of like intense
hunger.
Cause like I had to rebuild mymetabolism back and like learn
how to eat at normal times andlike learn to like let go of
obsessive behaviors.
but yeah, I, that time was.

(38:02):
Was very hard.
I still have some like selfdestructive tendencies that I
need to work on, but I think thebreaking point also for that
time, when I finally realized Ireally need to change or like
find some help was, I had.
I also like was like intenselyexercising.
What I was like, not eatinganything at all.

(38:23):
but every morning I would go onruns, to, to park that was near
our house.

And

then I would just lay on the bench and like,

Fall asleep, which is kind of

dangerous now thinking back on

it,

but good thing, nothing happened, but there's
one time I was laying down onthe bench and everything like,
like my butt hurt when I satdown.
Cause there was like, no, likefat on my butt.
So it was just like my bones.
And then like my back hurt,everything hurt even when I was
like laying on my bed,

which is like cushioned, it still hurt.

and then like, my ribs were protruding.
My knees were protruding.
It was like, like everythinghurts.
So I got to point that was like,okay.
I decided my goal is to likecombat this thing.
So I went on that journey.
I didn't actually go see adoctor, so I just like did it by
myself.

(39:22):
I also was not diagnosed of likeany of the mental illnesses.
but like, I mean, when you'reexperiencing it, you kind of
know yourself.
and I didn't want to like burdenmy parents with the monetary
things.
and I still to this day do nothave a therapist and I think I'd
really need to find a therapist.
but yeah.

A good therapist is hard to find because like one
there's a short supply, I mean,and also they're super
expensive.
Yeah.

But right now I have the school's health
insurance.
So I need to go see a counselorat my school or something like,

Oh, thank God for your school.

Yeah.

Yeah.
Take advantage of that when

you have it, right?

Yeah.
Super important.

Like I'm.
So in

awe that

you were able to go through all the motions of

recovery on your own, because that's.
It's

in my mind.
I'm like, I can't

even fathom

because there's so much

around NRX there because so much of it is it's a
mental health disorder, right?
Yeah.
And to learn how to, as youmentioned, the timing of the
food, recognize your hungersensations again, right.
Getting your body back to thatphysiological state.
Without the support of ahealthcare professional, it's

(40:46):
like, Holy fuck.
Scary and amazing

that you were able to do that.
Thank you.
There's like a lot of like othermental illness, like mental
health stuff that come up duringrecovery, like a lot of self
hate because the initial processit's like, you gain a lot of
weight, right.
Because you're finally starteating again, but your
metabolism has like, Gone soslow.
You can't actually digest allthe food that you eat.
So you become really fat, whichis like not a derogatory term,

(41:13):
but to like a person who'srecovering, like when you see in
the mirror is like not what youwant to see.
And I'm still like grapplingwith like self hate and like
body image issues right now.
Well, yeah, I think a lot ofpeople who like don't have a
mental illness or eatingdisorders still like have a lot
of body image issues, bodydysmorphia.

totally.
And I think like negative selftalk and self hate.
I feel like so much of it.
We experience

for folks who.

Either diagnosed or not, but go through symptoms
of depression or anxiety or aneating disorder or disordered
eating, all of that becomes waymore amplified.
And then the shame andembarrassment and the need for
control is so much stronger too.
So it's just,

Oh, I love that.

Like it's yeah.
The whole eating thing.

Yeah.

It's not easy, especially from, you know, for,
for someone who had anorexiait's yeah.
I'm just so in awe Christinadietician.

Oh really?
Yeah.

I mean, I can go more

into, if you will.
Like, in the very beginning, Icould only eat foods that were
like, quote, unquote safe forme, which was like border
lining, orthorexia.
Which is like you had to eatlike really healthy foods,

like clean eating quote unquote.

And I was like, during that time, I was also
like extremely obsessed withlike all magazines and websites
that was like clean eating,

while I wasn't eating anything.

And then when, during the time I was also
consuming a lot of content thatwas like, Travel slash eating
blogs.
Like I love Mike Chen.
I still watch, Oh my God.
Like, he's great.

He, yeah, he eats like five bowls of noodle
and yeah.

And that would be like, okay, as long as I'm
watching this, I can get full.
That was like my mentality.
So I just like watch the, but Ididn't eat anything.
but during like recovery, Iwould only eat like safe foods
that were healthy.
And then.
It was like, how long has itbeen?
I'm so old.
Oh three.

No, it seems like a long time ago.

I think it was like three years, like only recently.
And it's also with like the helpof my current partner.
She helped me like, Get intofoods.
I usually eat like foods fromoutside restaurants, like sushi
burgers, et cetera.
So I can eat like almost anyfood now.

(43:59):
which is really good.
yeah, but I still have a coupleof problems that I need to work
through, like food timing.
And, I can't really eat likegreasy foods in the morning or
else, like, I feel veryuncomfortable, but yeah.

And that all, that's all part of the recovery
process, right?
Like it doesn't just happenovernight.
It can take people like 10 to 20years really to

go through recovery and

depending on how deeply ingrained it is, and this
is something, what I'm about tosay next is not something that
I've talked about on the podcastbefore, but.
During high school, I wentthrough also phase of disordered
eating as well.
So some of the stories that youhad mentioned, I'm like, Oh my
gosh, I totally relate likenonstop exercising all the time,
morning and the afterschool.
And then at night timeconsistently for many hours,

(44:42):
this is also very triggering forpeople.
So it's definitely

triggered, very triggered

and, and yeah, like I would eat an Apple, you
know, for a whole day.
Cool.
and, and then yeah, being soobsessive about magazine

at the time we had physical magazines.
So obsessive about that, like Iremember it was like,

certain celebrities and they, they lost
a bunch of weight and I'm like,Oh my gosh.
And they weren't, they wereactually shaming that celebrity
saying like they lost too muchweight.
And in my mind, I'm like, no,they're perfect because they
were so skeletal.
I'm like, that's the way to go.

Well, that reminds me of something.
so, so it's kind of, it's notfunny, but it's like this phrase
it's funny.
But, so it was like during, whenI heard it.
Like the beginnings of anorexiaand I started losing weight a
lot.
And then when I got to a certainweight, my parents and my family
were telling me, Oh, you lookgreat.

(45:37):
Right.
They would tell you that whenyou lose the weight, you look
great.
And then it's funny because onceI like started losing even more
weight, they're like, you'velost too much weight.
Why are you so scared?
I'm just like, what do you wantme to do?

Yeah.
But, and then so much of it isalso like you're getting that
affirmation.
That weight is a good thing.
Right.
And,

and for folks who, you know,

Maybe suffering from anxiety or, you know, or
even, especially social anxiety,having that validation and
hearing that from your friendsand family, like, Hey, you look
so good.
Like you you've lost some weightthat can actually be super
damaging because in one hand,

you're you're

perpetuating like, or supporting this idea
that by losing weight, then youare now worthy and that you are
quote unquote healthier.
Right?
And then you become obsessedwith wanting to lose weight.
Even like dangerous.
Yup.

Yeah.
Even like my mom's, my mom'srhetoric is always like, she
doesn't, well, I mean, she does,but like, you know how, when you
like, come back to your parentsafter a while, they're like, Oh,
did you lose weight?
Or like, Oh, did you gainweight?
She like does that too to me,but mostly she talks about
herself in her own weight.

(46:53):
Like she's I locate things she'slike slightly.
Body dysmorphia, but even then,yeah, she's like in her forties
and she's like so obsessed withher weight and like what she
eats or how much she eats.
And she's like, Oh, I can't eatthis right now.
I can't eat anymore.
I need to lose weight.
And like, she's.

(47:14):
The same weight as me.
And she's like, I need to losefive more pounds.
I'm just like

lady.

Well, yeah,

sort of thought that's the self hate, the
distorted thought and then theobsession.
Right?
Cause then it's, it's so much ofit is ha needing to have that
control and wanting thatvalidation, just basking in that
validation.

I think part of it, part of my interests, he was
also like influenced by my mom'srhetoric.
Cause like growing up, I was, Iwould always be like bombarded
with stuff that was like skinnyequals beautiful, healthy, et
cetera, et cetera, like skinnywas positive.
so it made me kind of like wantto reach for that.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause like on the surface whodoesn't want to be healthy and
look good and be accepted by

society.
Right.

But underneath it's actually causing way more
harm than good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, for myself, I I'vedefinitely, always, struggled
with body image issues too.
I got my boobs really.
Right.
Oops.
Very early.
Yeah.
And, it made me hypersensitiveto the way that other people
would look at me.

(48:25):
cause it would be girls and guysjust making comments about my
body as if they had a say overwhat I should look like.
And, so I've always been reallyuncomfortable with my sexuality
growing up because of how.
Big, my boobs were at a youngage.
One thing I will always rememberis like, I always thought I was

(48:46):
fat, but like looking back atphotos of myself when I was in
high school, I'm like, I wasn'teven fat.
I was just curvier than, thanthe typical, you know, Chinese
girl.
Like we're a product of ourenvironment.
And a lot of our attraction iswe're attracted to the type of
people we think we should beattracted to.

(49:06):
And a lot of that is societalfactors.
And growing up with all thesethings of telling us were too
fat or too skinny, where.
Not skinny enough.
We're not that enough.
Like, you know, like the trendsalways changing and you can
never one moment, like it'sgoing to be big butts.
And then the next day is goingto be like tight abs.
Like you're never going to beable to keep up.

(49:28):
To keep up.
So we have to be happy with our,the thing is it's like, it's
like a game of Thrones moment.
We need to just break the wheel.
Who cares if you're fat, that'snot the point, right?
Like who cares?
If you're skinny, that's not thepoint it's been so fucking
ingrained into our society andinto our minds with our families

(49:49):
or their parents, with ourfriends, right.
With healthcare professionals toeven.
But like that's now we need tostart changing that narrative,
but we are accepting diversityin terms of skin color, in terms
of, you know, religion, race,ethnicity.
We now also need to startlooking at diversity within

(50:11):
bodies as well because health.
Oh, it is not about what thenumber on the scale is.
Health is about all the otherfactors that you do, you know,
including sleep, including howyou're managing stress.
Yes.
Eating for sure.
Right.
Moving your body for sure.
But also all these other factorsthat really that scale, doesn't

(50:33):
tell you the story about any ofthat shit.

Health is like health can be.
Totally different appearances.
Like, how do you, how can youtell from like someone just
looking at some of their healthyor not?
It's like,

exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
That's right.
So we need to stop judgingpeople by the way they look.

Angie Yu (50:58):
Episode.
I am reading Allie comment fromLisa Townsend, who is a guest on
one of our upcoming episodes.
This is a comment that this is acomment that Lisa wrote to us
and it made us feel all warm andfuzzy inside.
And Lisa said, I just wanted youto know that I have been on a
good emotional roller coastersince you guys invited me to be

(51:19):
on your show.
And it's forcing me to reflecton my life as I dig through all
the stories that my life holdscrying right now, LOL, listening
to.
Give Christie, the D right nowis speaks to me on so many
levels.
Thank you for being sovulnerable and brave.
Thank you, Lisa, for the kindcomments and we can't wait to
share your episode and yourstory with our listeners.

We talked about, we talked about.
Religion.
We talked about sex.
We talked about porn.
We talked about, how you'recloseted from your family right
now.
Our show is called shit.
We don't tell mom.
And I'm curious to know fromyou, what is a piece of shit
that you would really like totell your mom

Oh, I think I would really like her to come to my
wedding, but I do not know ifthat can happen, like at this
moment.
and then I think another thingis I really want to, tell her
about her.
Very distorted body imageissues.

(52:32):
Cause like, I feel like she, shelives so tiring only when,
whenever I see her like fussover like food and like, the
weight on the scale.
Oh, I think I probably wouldtell her that we all probably
need therapy in the family.

Those three are.
I mean, those are huge things towant to talk to mom and.
I mean you're 20, so

I'm so young.

You're so young.
I'm so old.

I don't think I've

ever heard anyone be like, Oh, I'm so
young.

Okay.
I'm turning 21 very soon.
And it's very scary.

You'll be fine.
I think they'll do great.
You've already come a reallylong way from just an hour and a
half of talking to you.
I can tell that you're anincredibly strong person and you
are very strong-willed, to havegotten yourself, you know, like
looking at your own problems andtrying to fix that, like for

(53:36):
someone, your age to takeresponsibility for such.
Large challenging problems.
Like you've come a long way andI'm, I'm, I'm sure you have lots
and lots of great things in thefuture for you.
Oh,

you're so sweet.

That's true.
And so, you know, thank you somuch for opening up, sharing
your stories and telling usabout all the shit that you want
to tell mom.
Yeah, I think I learned a lottoday.

No, thank you for having me.
It's very fun.
This is actually my firstpodcast on someone else's show.

Hey, how did it feel?

It was great.
It's actually, yeah, it feltlike kind of nice not being the

host.

Oh, state responsibility.
Yeah.
yeah, I definitely want toinvite you guys on my podcast
too.
Yeah, we're down.

We're just going to straight up except where can
our listeners find you?

let's see, you can find MX Asian-American on
Facebook and Instagram or emaila mixed Asian american@gmo.com.
Or if you want, like my quoteunquote private handle, is
underscore underscore K dot Z,for Instagram.

Yeah.
Awesome.
Sounds good.
We'll link them in the shownotes as well as link to your
podcast.

Yeah.
Thank you.

Thank you.
We'll talk soon.
Bye.
Bye.

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17. Exploring Our Sexual Identities ft. Karen Zheng (MX Asian American) - Part 1

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}17. Exploring Our Sexual Identities ft. Karen Zheng (MX Asian American) - Part 1