21. Managing Expectations as an Asian Millennial ft. Natalie Cheung (Yellow Bee Pod)

Episode Transcript
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Kristy Yee (00:00):
Oh God.
Okay.
Three, two, one record.
Okay.
We are live

Angie Yu (00:05):
we are

Kristy Yee (00:33):
okay.
Welcome back to another episodeof shit.
We don't tell mom today.
We have a super exciting guest.
I'm so thrilled to have, youknow what, I'm not even going to
reveal.
I'm so thrilled to have thisperson.
She is a major voice for theEastern Southeast Asian stories
in the UK.
She's a podcaster hosting yellowB pod.

(00:57):
She's also a huge advocate foryoung women in STEM careers.
And she's also been awarded theYMC, England and Wales young
leader of the year in 2018 andthe university of Manchester for
media of social responsibilityin 2019.
So, you know, no big

Angie Yu (01:14):
Damn.

Kristy Yee (01:15):
welcome, Natalie,

Nathalie Cheung (01:18):
Kind intern on Joe to be here.
I love your podcast.
I'm really excited to connect tothe Instagram and that you've
asked me to get, so this episode

Kristy Yee (01:25):
for sure.
You were like, I remember when Ifirst discovered your podcast.
It was during risk quote, airquotes,

Angie Yu (01:32):
Yeah.

Kristy Yee (01:33):
time before we started our podcast.
And I was like, Oh, damn, yes.
She speaks about all thesethings that I think about.
And all the guests that youbring on are super amazing.
Like you've had Evelyn mock onyour show.
And I think at the time I don't,it hasn't exploded as big as he
did.
Was that correct?

(01:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the fried rice thing hasn'thappened yet.
I felt really cool that I hadalready known who Nigel long was
because he was an indie Asiancomedian in the UK and I'm like,

and even white people know him.

Kristy Yee (02:09):
I really want to talk to this girl now.

Oh, Evelyn.
Welcome somebody.
And I love her podcast.
I feel like they are.
Probably the biggest voices inlike the British East Asian
space.
and that they're still new, liketheir podcast.
Isn't very established, but it'snew in terms of conversations as
a whole.
And that they, I think that justshows like how much more we have
to move, especially here in theUK.
I don't know how you feel aboutwhere you are with, you know,

(02:35):
quote Asian representation inCanada.

Kristy Yee (02:38):
I feel like it's very similar.
I think maybe America is like atiny, maybe a toe ahead of
everybody else.
But I think just from what Isee, though, from what I'm
exposed to the UK, Australia andCanada, we're all just starting
out.
We all just took that one firststep onto the stepping stone of
getting Asian representation inthe media, getting our stories

(03:01):
out there, having our faces beprotagonists in Netflix, you
know?
That's all new.
Like I can only name one show onNetflix that has an East Asian
face.
And I can only name one showthat has a South Asian face.
maybe movie I'm thinking aboutto all the boys I've ever loved.

(03:22):
I think that's what it's calledfor the movie.
and then I'm thinking I've neverhave I ever, cause I just binged
that.

Oh, I love that

Angie Yu (03:28):
I love

Kristy Yee (03:28):
my gosh.
I literally watched all of it inone

Angie Yu (03:31):
Me too.
I watched it in one weekend andI kept telling other people to
watch it.

Kristy Yee (03:35):
It was brilliant.
It was so

good.
Normally I feel like Netflixshows that I sit in high
schools.
I'm like, I'm too old for this.
I can't watch Riverdale.
I feel like I can't relate, butnever have I ever was a great
show,

Angie Yu (03:47):
right?
Yeah.
This is so relatable.

for the boys as well, love that.
Looking forward to the third onecoming up.

Kristy Yee (03:53):
Oh, me too.
Have you read the books?

No, I haven't, I've only read the first one,
but I love Lana condo.
I think she's so cute.
I'll always, whenever she's in,I'm like, yeah, I will support
you even if it's shit.
But it's interesting that youthink that in um, Canada, that
you're, what did you say?
A toe, but I think that's aninteresting way of looking at
time ahead of us in the UK,because I've had that certain
parts or at least like somemajor cities in Canada there are

(04:16):
like really large East andSoutheast Asian communities
there.
And actually when a couple ofyears back now, I posted on
Facebook being like, I'm goingtraveling.
which Asian place should I goto?
And one of my friends fromCanada commented and said, come
to Toronto.

Angie Yu (04:33):
You know what that, that is the case.
I would say Toronto is verydiverse.
It's kind of like a Canadianversion of London, I would say.
And I would say Vancouver islike a mini version of LA.
Vancouver, we're on the Westcoast of North American
continent.
So we're closer to Asia and thenToronto is on the East coast.
So they're closer to Europe.
So I feel like the demographicskind of reflect that geography.

(04:56):
However, even though we have alarge population, the
representation is still reallylacking because the
representation is the media andthat's not something that we
really have control over.

Yeah.
That's totally makes sense.

Kristy Yee (05:08):
and I do want to say like, you know, Angie and I are
from Vancouver, which is huge.
We do have a pretty big East andSoutheast Asian.
Population, but I also want topoint out that we are an
outlier, like Toronto andVancouver were the biggest
cities in one of the biggestcities in Canada.
there's going to be a lot moreimmigrants that come over to the

(05:31):
major city.
So therefore we're way morediverse, but everywhere else in
Canada, not so much.

Angie Yu (05:37):
Natalie, where are you located?

Okay to date in the suburbs of London.
So, yeah, you're right in sayingit's a really multicultural
city.
When a lot of people that hadcome to live in London and
called themselves, Londonerswere not born and raised here,
but I live way out in thesuburbs.
So the longer this quarantinething goes on the less, I feel
like I'm a Londoner, cause Inever go into central London.
What you would recognize asLondon?

(05:59):
I never go there anymore ever,ever

Angie Yu (06:02):
Yeah, Yeah, I've been to London a few times.
first time I went to London, Iwas a student had just
graduated.
So I had no money and I justremember London being so
expensive because at the time itwas like two, two Canadian
dollars to one pound.
So I remember.
Yeah.

late in England.
People know London is likeridiculous expensive place to

Angie Yu (06:25):
Yeah.
And especially here, I guess, interms of representation, Here.
Like what I said before, it'swe're still a little bit behind,
but in terms of food, we'redefinitely like way ahead of the
benchmark.
And I remember like I wascraving Asian foods so hard.
and by Asian, I mean, East Asia,because I know in London, Asia
means South Asian and you haveto specify East Asian, but here

(06:47):
in Vancouver, Asian usuallymeans East Asian.
And then you have to specifySouth Asian.
So I was craving East Asianfood.
So I went to Chinatown in Londonand I remember like, it was the
cheapest place to get foodbecause it was like seven or
eight pounds for a bowl ofnoodles.
And I'm like, man, this is likealmost$20 Canadian for a bowl of
noodles, but it was stillcheaper than anything else.

(07:08):
And I just remember my ex'sfamily thought that I only ate
Asian food because I just, thatwas the only thing I could
afford.

Oh, my God.

Kristy Yee (07:20):
you have to clarify

Angie Yu (07:22):
Well, the second time I went back, I had a job, I had
like savings.
I had money and I rememberasking them for some
recommendations, they just keptrecommending East Asian places
for me to eat.
And I was like, Oh, no, like I'mlooking for like, maybe some
Spanish tapa because you know,some Italian food.
And they were like, Oh, okay.
And then I realized that theyhad for like four years, they

(07:43):
have thought that I only ateChinese.

so strange.
It was her boyfriend and hisfamily or your ex boyfriend.
Were they Asian?

Angie Yu (07:50):
no, they were white.
Yup.

you have a thing for English boys?

Angie Yu (07:54):
I did.

I'm trying to scam through my contact list
right now,

Kristy Yee (08:01):
I have a thing for English accent.

right?
Well that I can provide.

Kristy Yee (08:12):
So I want to get right into it.
And in one of your episodes thatI was listening to recently I
think it was episode 10 you weretalking a lot about your work in
advocacy for women inengineering and about civil
engineering.
But one of the comments stuckout to me was you mentioned,
like you don't really tell yourmom about what you do at work

(08:36):
and what civil engineering isabout.
And then I thought I'm like,Ooh, some shit, Natalie.
Isn't telling mom.

That's perfect for your podcast name?
Yeah, definitely.
Oh God.
I haven't actually spoken aboutthis, like really in depth in my
podcast, but I, well, okay.
Where did we start?
Start from the beginning, maybeI was always a really good
student and did everything thatwas laid out planned for me.
So I finished school, went touniversity, or that's what we

(09:07):
call it here to go to studycivil engineering, as he said,
and started working as a civilengineer or like the, you know,
the general grad scheme, a bigcorporate, like very typical and
very much like what was plannedout for me all this time.
My mom never really fullyunderstood like what a civil
engineer actually is.
And sometimes I would like tohave about what I was getting up
to my day to day, because Iwould know that.

(09:29):
She would much rather think thatI was just in office all day,
rather than ever going to aconstruction site, for example,
which I didn't do that often,but it was part of my job.
But actually the part that Ididn't tell my mum is when I
left that job.
so pretty early in my career, Iactually stepped out of a civil
engineering role into what I donow, which I feel kind of bad

(09:49):
thing because I've alwaysadvocating for diversity in STEM
women in engineering.
It's such a male dominatedfield.
And I really liked to, you know,champion sponsor and support
women who are pursuing careersin these roles.
I was one who left really,really early.
They talk about the leakypipeline, like people leaving
the industry, or even beforethey joined the industry.

(10:11):
So they never make it to middleand higher management.
And I was one of those but whenI did my new job, I didn't tell
my mom that I even had any job.
I didn't tell her that I hadchanged industry or change role.
And It was actually quite easyto keep it a secret, even though
I live with her becauseeverything was the same to house
leaving at the same time everyday, coming back at the same

(10:32):
time and bringing home the sameamount of money every month.
Like there really was nodifference in her eyes.
And I kept that a secret for sixmonths and I felt really like it
was a difficult conversationwhen it actually came out in the
end.
So that's something shit youdon't tell mom, is that a weird
thing to tell you?
Let's not tell your parentsabout your job and what do each
of you do now?

Angie Yu (10:52):
I'm, I'm curious.
Like what what part of it wereyou scared of?
I guess?
Cause it sounds like it wassomething that you feel like it
might make you uncomfortablebringing up with her.
Like, were you scared of acertain reaction from her?

Yeah, definitely.
I think people always want tolive up to a certain expectation
and I think for pretty mucheveryone.
People end up stepping off, youknow, what their parents
expected of them.
At some point, some people willdo that when they're 15.
Some people do that when they'reat university.
for me, it was like two years,three years into my career.
And some people, you know, itdoesn't happen until they have a

(11:24):
midlife crisis and then changeindustry suddenly or become a
life coach or whatever it is.
but yeah, for me, yeah, ithappened like quite early on in
my career.
And I think there's a, yeah, alot of expectation, but also I
just didn't want the drama.
And I wouldn't say that, youknow, there wouldn't have been a
massive fight about it, but Ijust didn't want my mom's sort

(11:45):
of new expectations about my, myjob and the extra pressure that
comes along with it.
is that something that you canrelate to.

Kristy Yee (11:52):
I can relate to the expectations part.
And then also just dreadingconversations.
I dread conversations with mymom, even, even if I know that
the outcome won't be crazydramatic.
I just don't want to go throughthe hurdles of having to explain
why this is happening or, youknow, explain why this is an

(12:13):
okay choice for me to do.
It just feels really exhaustingto have to go through that
hurdle and having to translateall that I want to say from
English to Cantonese makes iteven less enjoyable.
So I can relate to how you don'twant to have this big
conversation with mom, eventhough it might not even be that

(12:34):
it's still big, but it's not.
We're not going to have a hugefight over it.
I just don't want to have thatbig conversation,

Angie Yu (12:41):
you feel like it's your responsibility to help them
understand?
And I don't know.
I think I, I, I definitelyrelate to it.
And I think for a while I justfelt kind of like, Oh, like my
friends don't have to do thiswith their parents because their
parents would understand.
But because my mom's animmigrant, my parents are
immigrants.
They don't really understand howthings work here.
my parents never reallypressured me into anything.

(13:03):
They were never like uh, youmust be an engineer.
You must be a lawyer.
You must be a doctor.
I mean, I think in high school,my mom didn't want me to be a
doctor, but then she realizedhow shitty of a student I was.
So she just kind of gave up.

Kristy Yee (13:16):
but you're a great

Angie Yu (13:17):
no, I'm a horrible student.
I'm a horrible student, like I'mnot very studious.
Like I'll, I'll do the minimumto get by.
And I managed to get pretty goodgrades, I think to get into
university.

working, you know, what you need to do in
order to get good

Angie Yu (13:31):
Yeah, exactly.
And that's not, that's not agood thing because when you
become adult, you're like, ah,shit.
Now I get to have to like doreal work, you know?
But I think for me, there was apivotal moment.
Back in 20, 19, 2020.
And I was just like, you knowwhat?
I hate what I do for a living.
I've been miserable for the pastfour years.

(13:52):
I need to change my job.
I don't want to do this anymore.
This is soulless.
I need to do something thatmakes an impact in the world.
And I really just thought aboutabandoning everything I've done
to work in finance and justthought about abandoning my job
and going into like journalism.
Which pays like nothing inCanada.
and I would have a really hardlife, basically according to my

(14:16):
mom.
so I actually went on a trip toToronto to go meet a school and
talk about the journalismprogram.
And that com Cal come back.
And I talked to my parents andtell them that I'm going to go
move to Toronto and become ajournalist.
And they they both just likeexploded.
And that was a reaction I wasnot expecting because my whole
life, like they've kind ofapproved of everything I've

(14:39):
done.
And it was the first time reallyin my life.
And I was almost 30 the firsttime in my life that I really,
really experienced what it waslike to not get approval from
parents.
And that's like, I that's superprivilege of me.
I totally understand.
Like, I'm really, really.
Lucky to have very understandingparents.
So that was like a huge shock tome.
I was like, what, how can youguys not accept that this is

(15:00):
what I want to do?
And they're like, you're justdepressed right now.
And I got into a huge fight withthem and didn't talk to them for
a really long time.
I was also thinking, seeing atherapist at the time and the
therapist was like, is it yourjob that you want to get away
with?
Or is it other things becausethe job is external.
And if you're not happy withyour current job, you're never
going to be happy with any otherjobs.

(15:22):
And I was like, Oh my God.
So I'm still in finance.

There's very self-aware or not self-aware,
but aware from your parents'side to give that sort of
guidance, even if it isn'treally what you wanted to hear,
because I don't think I wouldever hear that from my parents
or my grandparents generation.

Kristy Yee (15:43):
Not to do.
did you ever end up telling yourmom when you switched careers?

I did.
But only as an accident.
So how it came out was be on thetrains.
You just happen to be goingsomewhere at the same time that
I was competing.
And then I got off at adifferent stop than I would
have.
She knew where my previousoffice was and she was confused.
She was like, Oh, aren't yougoing here?
And I was just like and it tookus so long to see, you know,
figure out like what my actualjob title and company name and

(16:09):
workplace was.
Well, my first job and it'staken just as long for her to
figure it out from my currentjob.
Like she has, she has mybusiness cards stuck up on the
fridge because she can neverremember

Angie Yu (16:19):
that's so sweet.

she can, but why this little came up now and
I wanted to talk about it today.
It's fun to talk about it isbecause I I'm actually changing
jobs again in the spring and I'mcurrently thinking, should I
tell my mom or not?
And I asked that is because theother day she was chatting to my
sister who is the nature of herwork.
She works with differentclients.
And my mum misunderstood as mysister is changing clients.

(16:44):
Don't my sister was changing heremployer and then she kind of
freaked out and she was youoverreacted.
And I said, no, he's like souncertain right now.
I mean, financially the UK isprobably at the very bottom of
the recession and not going tostop coming up for at least a
little while.
And.
Yeah, there's just a lot ofuncertainty and she didn't want
my sister to be putting herselfin a situation where she, you

(17:07):
know, is leaving us stableincome.
and my sister is, she's fine,but I am, I am changing jobs.
So that's what I'm thinking.
does it even matter if I tellher, if I don't tell her, am I
overreacting overthinking it?
maybe I'm setting a precedentthat I'm now going to have to
like live with for the rest ofmy life.
And every, every job change,

Angie Yu (17:25):
Hmm.

Kristy Yee (17:27):
It'd be like telling you what to do, because we don't
know what they are, but I'mcurious to know from the first
time, you know, how did mom takethat?

she was very confused at first.
I didn't tell her I changed jobssix months ago, but eventually.
actually to settle her mind,that's what I said.
I said, you know, this is not arecent change.
so her first reaction was yeah,complete confusion.
And then she really didn'tunderstand sort of what my new
role was about.
And sometimes I'll have adifficult time articulating it

(17:56):
because it's not something asclear as, you know, lawyer,
accountant, doctor, engineer,it's, you know, a bit more
confused.
And it's not this wholestandalone industry.
I don't even know how todescribe it sometimes.
so explaining it to my mom isalways difficult, particularly
because she's never worked inthat sort of role, like an
office job or professional jobbefore.
And her understanding very muchcomes from stereotypes and let

(18:17):
her friends, so will her friendssays good is what she thinks is
good because that's herunderstanding of, you know, the
working life in London.
so yeah, at first the first wasconfusion.
And then I sort of, um, try tosettle her mind by saying that
it has.
No, it's been a change I've beenliving with for a while and she
can see that I'm still stable.
My life is still very much thesame.

(18:40):
And I think it took her likeover a year to actually figure
out what I do in my day job.
And that's where the businesscard on the fridge help.

Kristy Yee (18:48):
Is it similar or does it transition well from
your, your current role?

To what I do now.
but I think there's justunexpected things that my mum
will sometimes fear.
And I don't know whether you'vehad this, but my mom is very
risk averse when it comes toCOVID-19 stuff now.
And she's always saying, youknow, wipe down the grocery,
stay away from people, alwaystelling us to wash.
I have wash everything which isgood practice.
I guess I don't want to get sickeither.

(19:14):
But with things about my newrole, where I might be, you
know, working with people in thegeneral public or schools and
young people or people who agesthere may be, you know, I don't
want her to worry and think thatmy new job is going to put me
more at risk, things like that.
So I think that's somethingwhich is going to come up, but
I'm trying to yeah.

(19:34):
Preempt it for you.
Have that conversation before ithappens.
I'm guess I'm not looking for ananswer, but it's just difficult
because I don't want to regrettelling her either

Kristy Yee (19:43):
Yeah, well, Angie and I are always big advocates
of communication.

Angie Yu (19:48):
Yeah.
And I think Natalie, what you'resaying, like, you don't know if
it's going to set some sort ofprecedent and you don't know
what it's going to be like goingforward.
And I think a lot of that comesfrom like lack of transparency.
And I think that lack oftransparency comes from not
communicating.
And I think she worries when youand your sister changes your job

(20:10):
or change your jobs because shefeels uncertain about what's
going to happen because of thelack of transparency.
that's my take on it because Iused to be like that too with my
mom.
And I've only grown closer toher in the last couple of years
and I.
At the beginning, when you firststart communicating with your
mom, it's really difficult,especially for us where we have

(20:30):
such a large cultural andgenerational and you know, all
those gaps with our parents.
but I have learned that my momhas actually a lot more
open-minded than I thought andcertain reactions from her that
I expect.
she pleasantly surprised me withher reactions as time went on,
as I open up to her more.
And I think for people from ourtype of backgrounds, because our

(20:54):
parents never had thatrelationship with their parents,
it's really up to us to kind ofinitiate that relationship.
And that's something that, yeah,Christina and I are huge
advocates of because that'ssomething that we're doing in
our lives and we see thepositive impact, then we're
hoping that other people will dothat too.
But again, I'm not telling youwhat to do.
I'm just,

No, that's really beautiful advice and not
something that I've, you know,heard from other people.
Like in my circle a lot, mysister was the saying, no, keep
it a secret.
well, how does it affect anyway,it doesn't really matter that
much.
but that's really beautifuladvice, especially, you know
breaking the cycle.

Angie Yu (21:28):
Breaking the cycle.
Exactly.
That's what I was just going tosay.
Like, it also depends on like,what kind of relationship you
want with your children too,right?
Like if you want children thenyou got to start practicing.
Like it's hard because it feels,sometimes it feels like it's so
much work.
there have been moments whereI'm like, Oh my God, why is this
all my responsibility?
Right?
Like I have to be the bridgebetween the previous generation

(21:49):
and the next generation that isnow in Canada.
And I have to make sure thosecultural barriers are knocked
down.
Like, ah, it's ah, like it's somuch work.
Yeah.
But hopefully it's all worth it.
One day.

Yeah, that's true.
I always say like, the thingsthat are worth having are not
easy, so I should startlistening to my own advice.

Kristy Yee (22:11):
Shouldn't we all shouldn't we all, it's always
easy to tell others, you know?
And, and I think the claritywhen we see things from the
third person is so much easierthan when you are first person
trying to make a decision onanything.

(23:01):
We were, we talked a bit aboutcareers and we talked a bit
about, you know, thedifficulties in sharing what
that really is like today-to-day to mum, because it's
difficult.
It's difficult to talk about.
And even though we went throughthat trajectory or that typical
trajectory of get good grades,go to university, get a good
job.

(23:21):
And then happily ever after it'snot always happily ever after

Angie Yu (23:26):
No.

It definitely, when I think back to when I was
a teenager my perception of whatlike adulthood or my twenties
would look like, and thencompare that to the reality of,
you know, how it actually is.
It's just such a starkdifference.
And no one has, I dunno, no onetold me what adult life was
actually like and about how muchof it is not really feeling sure

(23:48):
and making it up as you goalong.
but since everyone has thiscommon experience, why does no
one tell teenagers and let's setthe expectations or like set the
expectations about the job thatthey choose is not their job for
life.
I mean, it's so rare for that tohappen now.
no one tells us, but Idefinitely feel like as I get
older, there is more and morepressure to reach things by

(24:10):
certain milestones, particularlylike the big three zero number,
which I know is something you'vespoken about in your podcast as
well.
One of the episodes.
and what is it about that big 30number that makes it such like
a.
Yeah, a measure of success.
I hate it.

Kristy Yee (24:26):
I think it's because of media.
There's so many things thatwe're supposed to do by 30.
And so then we internalize thatand then of course our parents
want us to get married and havekids by then because they did.
Right.
I think the timeline was, hasbeen shifted through the years,

(24:48):
but our parents are still stuckin their generation where by the
time you're 30, most of theirpeers and themselves have
established their careers andtheir families.
And they already pumped out twokids.
They already bought a house, youknow?
And so it's natural for them toexpect the same thing out of
their kids, because it was thesame.

(25:09):
They just expect that that mapthat they were given will apply
to us when they give us the map.
And then when we were young, weexpected that.
Okay, well checklist, checklist,checklist, checklist.
Okay.
Copy and paste mom's map, butOh, it actually doesn't work in
2020 oopsie daisies.

Yeah, it's definitely from parents and
definitely from the wider, youknow, Asian community as well,
but a hundred percent in media,I feel like in media, like it's
so rare to have a, like a middlewoman who's ever taken this in
like very different when it'smen.
So it's yeah.
Something where it's sort oflike, you're invisible.
You don't have the storylineafter the age of 35 40 when we

(25:53):
know that that's not true.
but yeah, barely everything'ssupposed to be happening in our
twenties period.
And I feel like a lot of myfriends now can feel like that
time.
Lessening and can feel thepressure mounting from like
everyone around them.
and maybe if we don't talk aboutit, it'll go away, but it's
think, do you think it's soingrained in our heads that even

(26:15):
if other people were not puttingthe pressure on you, you would
be putting the pressure onyourself because it's so
ingrained and intensely.

Angie Yu (26:23):
I'm like, Oh my God.
Yeah, before I turned 30, I hadthe thing, like, I've always
really wanted my own family, butI'm turning 30.
Oh my God.
I was like putting all thispressure on myself and I was
talking to my mom about it.
And my mom's like, look, I don'tcare if you end up not having
kids or not.
Like, I really don't.
I'm like, what?
But you always gave me theimpression that you really,
really want grandchildren.

(26:43):
And she's like, yeah, I do.
But like at the end of the day,it's your life.
And if, if you don't want tohave kids, then it's okay.
Like no pressure.
all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh,but now I feel all this pressure
on myself.
No, I have nobody to blame, butmyself,

Kristy Yee (26:58):
no, it's on you.
Okay.
First of all, your mom is hellawoke.
Okay.
So like, I feel like outlier.
I think but I do want to saythat I think most parents are
more supportive than we thinkthey are, even though they might
not verbally come out that way.
I think at the end of the day,they just want things to be
better for you than it was forthem, because they knew how hard

(27:22):
it was for them.
Especially being new immigrants,coming to a new country and all
of that.
They just want you to have abetter life.
And they think in their minds,like no blame at all, the better
life is to follow thischecklist, go through the
milestones, copy and paste thismap and have kids and buy a
house and all of that.
Right.
So,

Angie Yu (27:42):
I was going to say, I think maybe, I don't know, this
is like completely conjecture,but maybe because both of your
moms moved when they were intheir twenties.
So for them it feels like, Oh,the twenties is kind of when you
take your risk and And then onceyou've taken your risk, then you
need to settle down and kind ofjust no more uncertainty, like
no more on Saturday.
And they face so muchuncertainty in the, in that part

(28:06):
of their life that I'm sure ithas left a huge, huge impact on
the way their emotions work formy mom.
She moved to Canada when she waslike in her mid thirties.
So I think for me to like, quoteunquote, take risks now, I think
it kind of like coincides withher timeline as well.
She followed the, she followedout checklist of like, Hey,

(28:28):
going to school and doing thisand doing that.
And she did all that.
And she realized that lifesucked.
She realized that life

Kristy Yee (28:35):
Ah, she, she hit the quarter-life crises and she
understood what that was like.
Ah,

Angie Yu (28:43):
big.
So because of that, I feel likethat's why she's a lot more as
Christie puts, it woke than alot of other Chinese moms just
because She followed thattimeline.
Like she did really well inschool, but life still sucked,
you know?
And I think that's the same fora lot of people in our
generation.

(29:03):
We follow that checklist andthen we did the best that we
could.
And we're like, but lifestyle.

Kristy Yee (29:09):
Or like you don't hit those milestones within a
certain timeline, right?
Like I remember I was like,okay, so I'm going to graduate
by 24 and then I'm going to havea bomb ass career.
And then by 26, I'll save enoughmoney and then I'll get married.
Then 28, I'm going to have mykids.
Cause I don't want to have kidsin the right at the beginning of

(29:31):
my career, but I don't want tohave kids after I'm 30.
I specifically said that tomyself.
cause I want to be like still ayoung cool mom.
So probably pump out two kids bythe time I get to 30.
And then when I'm 30, I'm goingto have a house it's like big
ass house with my rich asshusband and I'm going to be rich

(29:52):
ass as well.
And I have my two kids and thenI will be at the peak of my
career at 33.
And that's what I'm going to berolling in all the money.

Why did they think that, that you're like,
you know, one quarter of yourway through your working life
and then you'll be at your peakthen,

Kristy Yee (30:11):
Yeah.

going the fair.

Kristy Yee (30:13):
I don't, I don't know where that came from.

It makes no sense.

Angie Yu (30:19):
But isn't that interesting?
Like nobody ever said thosewords specifically.
It's not like every, it's notlike we all got a handbook that
was like, you must accomplishthese things we're of a certain
age.
But even, even though we're likefrom two completely different
sides of the world, we all gotthat impression.
And I think that's sointeresting.

And yeah, I think you're right.
In terms of where you think thatour parents' experiences really
affect, you know, what theyexpect from us or we'll
definitely in my case, Idefinitely think you're right in
saying that because my mum hasso much uncertainty and change
in her twenties when sheimmigrated to the UK and she had
to work really hard to set up awhole life for herself here.

(30:57):
And it's sort of like once youhave that life that's ability,
that sense of feeling at homesomewhere, why would you give
the up?
So that's very much sort of howshe sees my, my perspective as
well.
And I definitely remember backat school days in my teen years
where my family would alwayshave a lot of pressure for me to
be achieving like the top, topgrades and.

(31:18):
I looked at my equally highachieving, you know, friends
who, whose parents are Britishand had gone through the same,
you know, qualification system.
And her parents had always havea mindset of ha I only got three
CS and I went on to be a, thisdirector and I'd have enough
money to upgrade my house andcar.
And that was very much theperspective that they had.
Like it's going to be all right.

(31:38):
Even if you don't have likethese grades and maybe, you
know, my friends still putpressure on themselves and all
worked hard for other reasons,but they didn't have that
pressure from their parentsbecause of their experiences.
So, yeah.
I definitely think you're trueat that, that analysis.
Yes.

Angie Yu (31:53):
That's very validating that my theory is applicable in
this case.

Kristy Yee (31:59):
I also wonder if it's like, like, I don't, I
don't know your mom net, but mymom came here in her twenties as
well.
And I think that when a lot ofnew immigrants come to a new
country in their twenties,There's there's a lot of
unwanted risk.
Whereas now their kids arechoosing to be risky.

(32:23):
Like we're asking to be risky.
And they're like, what the shit?
Why would you want that?
Why wouldn't you want stability?
Cause that's what they didn'thave.
So they didn't have thestability and the comfort
because they were just thrown inthese risky, scary situations
and they had to claw their wayand figure it out all for
themselves.
And that's something that theywould never want to go back to

(32:45):
now that they have found thestability and the comfort.
Whereas we were because we wereraised and where we were raised,
then I think that it's prettyprivileged.
So we were raised in a stable,comfortable environment.
And then we realized that thisisn't really what we want out of
life.
And we are choosing to seek riskand seek unstability, which

(33:09):
boggles their minds.
And that's what makes theconversation difficult because
now we're coming from differentvalue perspectives.

But actually, I sometimes think that.
With all, like, think about allthe movies that come out about,
you know, why your parentsimmigrated.
There's always some sort of, youknow, sense of struggle and
doing things because they want abetter life for their kids.
But if I, if I, if I like up mylife and moved to a different
country, why I didn't speak thelanguage fluently and I settled
down there because I've thoughtit would provide a better life.

(33:39):
It's not necessarily because Iwant to give my children better
than what I had or whatever itis also.
It could just be because Iwanted an adventure and it might
be fun.
But we also, I think we, we putthis really beautiful.
The story on to all of ourimmigrant parents were very,
might well be the case, but alsomight, well have not been the
case that they were, you know,trying to give a better life for

(34:01):
their future generations.
But I think it's very common,particularly within Eastern,
Southeast Asian diaspora thatpeople, well, some people were
refugees, you know, didn't havea choice at all about where they
were going or when but I think.
It's maybe like the modern dayversion for us or for of what
our parents did of immigratingand trying to have a better

(34:24):
life.
The modern day version could belike us quitting our jobs,
starting our own business,because we don't want to work a
40 hour a week.
We want to work for ourselveswork two hours a day from a
beach hut in Southeast Asia,like live in hostels.
And that's the best life that wewant for ourselves.
And that's the risk that maybeis the trendy thing for our
generation.

(34:45):
but I guess, yes, the abilityand, you know, financial
security doesn't always looklike what it did for our
parents' generation.
It could be different for whatit is now.

Kristy Yee (34:55):
Yeah.
And I think it's just explainingthat piece and bridging that
understanding between, you know,our thoughts now, our values
right now.
it's not like I don't wantstability and, and just in a
different form.
Right.
It's exactly what that said.
I, I want to work two hours aweek, two hours a day in my hut

(35:17):
in like Bali and then, you know,be in like Croatia the next
month because I can, right.

Angie Yu (35:28):
Yeah.
It's because we see it.
We see it.
It's like back in the day, likewhen our parents saw people
move.
To a Western country for abetter life.
And they're like, wow, like thatlooks amazing.
I'm going to do that too.
And then they do it.
They realize that it's actuallyreally fucking hard.
and I can tell you, I have a, Iknow a couple who live in Bali

(35:49):
and they travel and that'stheir, that's their job.
And they've been doing it forseveral years now.
And I can tell you, their workdays are not two hours.
Their work days are long, long,long, because they have to get
up really early to get shotswhen there's no people, they
gotta get to the golden hour.
So they're usually up at like4:00 AM and they're up til like

(36:11):
really, really late editing andstuff like that.
Like, it's, it's a hard life.
Now they're settling down alittle bit.
They've got a place in Bali thatthey're going to stay there for
awhile for long-term basis.
I think to everyone, it justlooks like a really good life,
but it's actually very, verydifficult

Kristy Yee (36:28):
Basically nothing looks like nothing.
The reality is not what it seemslike.
Basically that's the takeaway.
And no matter what the trend isin, in whichever generation
that's going to hold

Angie Yu (36:40):
Yup.
For us, it's the highlight reelof Instagram and for our
parents, it was when people fromabroad would go back with all
the presents and things fromabroad and they're like, wow,
look, look how look we made it.
But in reality, they're workingreally, really, really hard in
Canada where in the UK or inAmerica to make that life
happen.

Well, I love that message.
Everyone's tasting like thefreedom, the opportunity, but
then behind that there's likethe, all the hustle and the
grind that comes with it.
The reality of it, of thatreally interesting.

Angie Yu (37:12):
like having a podcast.
Right.
Like people don't know the, the,the Dusseau like pretty work
that goes behind a podcast.

Kristy Yee (37:22):
Yeah.
There's a lot of, articlessaying like, Oh, podcasts is,
you know to have a pockets ofsuper easy.
You don't, you know, it's whatdoes that term, like?

Angie Yu (37:32):
Like anybody can start a podcast, which is true, which
is true.
Anybody can start

Kristy Yee (37:36):
It is true.
It is true.
I think a lot of misconceptionis, Oh, you just.
Jump on the internet and thenyou record a conversation and
then that's it.
It's like, that is the smallestpart of what we do in terms of
the podcast, the actualrecording and the conversation
that is probably the funnestpart, but it is a small fraction

(37:56):
of everything else that we alsodo behind the scenes with the
editing and the marketing andthe audio, and, you know,

Yeah.
I think why so many people wantto start a podcast is because
they listen to podcasts, like,like the episodes where it's
just YouTube, when you alreadyhave like great energy and you
know, each other and you justbouncing off each other and
everyone listens to those reallyentertaining.
And then they look at theirfriends and then they're like,
we can see that we haveconversations.
Everyone has fun conversations.

(38:24):
but yeah, you're right.
But having said that.
I really like podcasts as aplatform because it is really
accessible to people who arecamera shy.
He don't have the equipment, hedon't have a media background
and there's no, you know, therearen't the barriers in the same
way.
There are with other mediums.
And I think that's good becauseyeah, that's why I was always
seeking out Asian voices throughpodcasts.

(38:44):
And that's what, how I ended upstarting mine as well.
So if anyone's listening to thisand thinks that they might want
to start one, I would alwaysencourage people to start one,
wherever it is, wherever themessage you want to power into
the world, it because we need tohear it we always need to hear
new voices and differentpeople's experiences as well.

Angie Yu (39:04):
Just stories.
Like that's one of the oldestart forms that we do as
humanity.
And that's always going to bedone, whether it's movies,
books, or podcasts.

Kristy Yee (39:12):
and now we just need more Asian, Southeast Asian,
East Asian, South Asian stories.
I'm going to pivot a little bithere.
and that you had introduced meto a term that I have never

(39:34):
heard before.
And that was agent insoles Incells.
insults

Well, we can call them in silos.

Kristy Yee (39:47):
in cells.
You're right in cells,

Angie Yu (39:49):
do you know what in sales are Christie?

Kristy Yee (39:52):
uh, involuntarily cell, involuntary celibacy
people who are not having sexbecause they think that they are
unattractive

Angie Yu (40:04):
Yeah, they kind of,

Kristy Yee (40:05):
I Googled them because I didn't understand what
the term was.
Cause not, not had mentioned it.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, Idon't know what this is.
I'll let me see what it is.
And I came up with some kind ofscary shit.
Came across some scary lookingshit.
So why don't that share with ouraudience?
What exactly this is because Ihad just Googled it.

(40:28):
So I'm not going to be the bestperson to explain it.

think I am either, but that's the reason I
want to talk about it on here,because it makes me
uncomfortable.
I ended up in a bit of an onlineagent in cell, you know,
research whole, probably likethe one Christy that you were in
today.
because it's something that Iwanted to cover my podcast
because I feel like it should becovered by someone who's Asian
and that's definitely should bethe right person for it.

(40:51):
But I more, I read about it themore I thought I'm not the right
person.
To do this.
but if other people want to, youknow, be that guest who can
bring in a differentperspective, I'll be keen to
hear from you because especiallyif you're male, I feel like
there's a whole area ofmasculinity that I can't, you
know, share my experiences of.
So an insole is someone, as hesaid, he is quote, voluntarily

(41:17):
celibate.
And basically what it is is menwho feel like they have a right
to get laid, but they don't.
And they start putting in all ofthese, you know, other reasons
why about women and thepatriarchy and all of these
things, all of these things thatthey think are stopping them

(41:38):
from getting laid and they getvery angry about it, which is
why it's so scary.
And they end up in these usuallyonline communities where they,
um, you know, we will have ourecho chambers online.
I'm definitely within a.
Asian representation, echochamber on Twitter and people,
and just end up, you know,seeing more content that
reflects to them what theyalready agree with.

(42:01):
so where that can be scary isthat people can be led to, you
know, more and more extremeviews.
As we know, from like theNetflix documentary, social
dilemma, it's quite scary.
It could be anything, you know?
and in this case, it's when Idon't know what it is.
I don't know wherever they,like, they really want to have
sex with women, but they hatewomen.

(42:22):
That's like, well I'm, so is anykind of leads, you know, really
dangerous cases of violence andawful things.
again, I don't feel like I'm thebest person to speak about this,
but if you want to end up in aresearch hall about it, I would
recommend it because it's,there's a lot to explore and
it's not that well writtenabout.
to make sure I give enough of abackground, because I feel like
I I've heard this term and I'veread a few different articles

(42:45):
about it, but many people won'thave.
So I want to make sure I, yeah,get it, get it across as clearly
as I can and hopefullyaccurately.
so in Asian, in, so on, youknow, similarly they are quoting
voluntarily celibate and theybut there's also a race element
into it.
And that's often the case wherethey think something like I'm

(43:05):
Asian, but Asian women don'twant to sleep with me because
they are obsessed with datingmen of other ethnicity, usually
white men.
So not only is there sort of amisogynistic or patriarchal
view, but there's also asprinkle of white supremacy in
the, in the conversations, whichis difficult because.

(43:26):
And I think why it's such aninteresting and complicated
subject to explore is becauseyes, white supremacy exists as
well as all these other things.
And yes, women should absolutelyhave agency over who they date,
but what is it?
You know, how can we bring the,the community so there's no, it
doesn't continue becoming moreand more extreme and more and
more opposed.
I hope I explained thatproperly.

Angie Yu (43:46):
Yeah, no, I, I think you did a pretty good job
explaining it.
That's my question was likespecifically on Asian in sales,
I guess as well, because myexposure to in sales, I mean, a
lot of it is from media too,because a, I think a couple
years ago in Toronto, there wassome guy who drove a van into
the pedestrian sidewalks andinjured.

(44:08):
A lot of people kill somepeople.
And the media really took thewhole incell term into kind of
like the main focus of thatincident.
so because of that, I startedlike same thing, like kind of
going into the research and thenjust saw a lot of things that
made me really angry.
And that was really upsetting.
And I'm like, I can't look atthis stuff anymore.
and yeah, I guess the Asian andcell thing is a thing too, and I

(44:30):
was exposed to it a little bit.
mostly with subtle Asian traits.
there was a period of time wheresubtle Asian traits, Gus
extremely toxic.
They were just, it was justbeing flooded with a bunch of
very misogynistic racist people,mostly men on posts that women
would post.
And I remember commenting onsomething where it was

(44:53):
completely not even related torelationships or race or
anything like that.
And I think it was like a littlebit political and someone's
comment was like, Oh, there goesanother w M a F feminist who
thinks she knows everything orsomething like that.

(45:15):
And I was like, wow, like that'sokay.
Fuck it.
Like, I'm not even gonna.
Like common back on this person.
because it means that theyactually went to my Facebook
profile and clicked through myphotos until they saw me with my
white ex-boyfriend and they feltinclined to comment on the
strangers comment on a post, ona Facebook group with like

(45:37):
millions of people in it, justso that they can feel better
about themselves.
Like that was like my exposureto direct contact with quote
unquote and Asian and sell.
And I try not to be bothered byit, but a friend of mine she had
reached out and she's like,what's w M a F.

(45:57):
And I'm like, Oh, it means whitemale, Asian female.
And she was like, Wait what'sthat because she is a Asian
female and she isn't in arelationship with a white male.
So she was all of a sudden, I'mlike, Oh shit, this concerns me.
So I guess she kind of went intothose research hole too, and it
made her very angry.
and that's, that's the type ofrelationship that's really

(46:18):
common in, in places like the UKand the us, and here in Canada,
especially here in Vancouver,it's very common as well.
and it doesn't make me like,look at my relationship a little
bit differently.
I think I became a little bitwary of telling people that I
was in a relationship with awhite man because I feel like it
made people immediately judgeme.

(46:39):
and after, after really likereflecting on that for a little
bit, I'm like, you know what,fuck it.
I can't control what otherpeople think about me.
if they feel like they areentitled in who I can choose to
be.
In a relationship with thenthat's their own problem, but
it's definitely a very, verydifficult topic to kind of touch
up on because it involves somany different aspects of like

(47:03):
very uncomfortable and negativehuman emotions.
You know, like you had mentionedin Natalie's like the misogyny
and the white supremacy and theracism and all that.

Yeah, and it's tough because I feel like I can
understand all the differentperspectives, not to the level
of, you know, calling up peopleand, or definitely not getting
violent, but I can't understandthe different perspectives.
I'm I just don't know how we canlike, bring that back together.

Angie Yu (47:30):
Yeah.
I it's such a, you know whatyou're right.
I, I do.
I do think that a lot of it, Idon't think the mental health
aspect is talked about enoughwith, these like quote unquote
in cells.
Because it is a mental healththing.
They're, they're attributing andmisplacing their own fears and

(47:50):
their own insecurity on it'svery, very much an external
thing because it's so mucheasier to hate on something
that's external than to be to behating on yourself or to, to
want to change something aboutyourself.
I remember listening to apodcast when I first started
getting into more of the AsianAmerican stuff.
I can't remember the podcastsexactly, but I'm going to try,

(48:12):
try to find it and put it in ourshow notes.
But I remember it might havebeen the Asian American radio
with Ken, Ken, John, somethinglike that.
and the episode was about Asianmales and how they felt about
interracial relationships,especially between Asian females
and white males.
And one guy was like, Oh, nowI'm like, he gave disclosure.

(48:33):
He was like, Hey, I used to beone of those guys.
And.
I used to be one of those guysuntil I realized that it was
actually on myself, but it wasjust so much easier to blame
other people than to be like,Hey, you need to get your shit
together.
You need to get healthier.
You need to be just a betterperson.
Stop being such an asshole.
And then when he realized thatthe responsibility was on
himself, he stopped painting.

(48:56):
And then he ended up in a veryloving relationship and he said,
he's not trying to like brag ortrying to say like, Hey, if you
get your shit together and youlook better that you're going to
end up in a relationship he'slike, for me, the biggest lesson
was like, I was blaming all theunfortunate things in my life on
other people or on a socialphenomenon, I guess.

(49:17):
And it was, it took some timefor him to actually realize that
it was within his own, like withhis own power to actually do
something about it.
And I think that's the.
Mental health aspect is a lot ofus, like whether it be
attributing your depression to ajob or a trip, Buting your hump
unhappiness to your, to yourbody or something like that.

(49:38):
Like, we, we think that we don'thave control over these things.
And I think it's just so mucheasier for people who have a lot
of self-esteem issues to blameother people than to really work
on it themselves.
That's my take.
I'm not saying that that's theright take, but that's my
perspective.

Yeah, that's a really interesting podcast
episode.
And I definitely want to checkthat out and listen to it,
especially to hear that's allmale perspective to be so
honestly as well.
And that's, I think that's a bigproblem with it.
It's sort of there's thestereotypes around Asian men who
might feel very likedemasculated in loss situations
and their experience is totallyvalid as well.

(50:13):
So it's about how do you makesure that you, you know,
recognize that their experiencesare totally valid, but that
doesn't mean it's okay for themto hate on Asian women, Asian
women who may be dating a whiteman at the time.
And there's a reason that theabbreviation years that that's,
that's the most commonabbreviation.
The one where the genders areflipped is far less common far

(50:34):
less recognizable and used andsort of what's the reason for
that as well.
So I do think that, you know,these agent in sales, a lot of
what they think comes from theirown experiences, but also their
perception of, Asian women hatethemselves and want to be closer
to whiteness, which is a boldmessage.
And it's definitely wrong anycases, but it's also not

(50:56):
completely incorrect becausethere's definitely cases where I
can only speak from myexperience where, you know, you
quote whites that tries to fitin and it's.
Sort of a wider problem there aswell, which is so difficult to
change.
Cause it's, you know, everywherein an ideal world, it would
change these stereotypes andthese experiences.

(51:17):
But well, you know, we're a longway from that and it'll take
lots of lots and lots of babysteps to get there.
So it's quite scary for me tothink about these communities
are brewing online and not eventhought corners of Reddit like
quite big well.
could continue to put a driveand separating different parts
of the wider

Angie Yu (51:40):
and I think, you know, there's something to be said
about the fact that the in cellcommunity is predominantly men.
Because again, like what yousaid, there's this whole thing
about masculinity that we willnever understand.
not to the point that menactually understand.
and for, for them to experienceall these things, they have
pressure from society and theyhave to be a man.

(52:02):
They can't talk about theirfeelings and there's all these
different factors that kind ofpour into it.
And.
This is one thing that we'vetalked about in our episode four
as well.
It's like nothing happens in avacuum.
the, in cell is a symptom of alarger issue at hand, right?
And we know we have a mentalhealth spin on our podcast.

(52:23):
And for me personally, I thinkthe in cells thing and
especially the ones who are veryviolent and very outwardly
whether it be vocally violent orphysically violent, like it's a,
it's a symptom of a larger issueI had, which is the lack of
mental health support in thosecommunities and the lack of
mental health support for men.

Kristy Yee (52:40):
and I think even lack of mental health
recognition, I think there mightnot, for some people they might
not even associate like, Oh,this could be, this could be an
internal thing for you, forsomeone to work on.
You know, maybe some, like, I'mnot saying, I'm not saying
everyone, actually I'm sayingeveryone should get therapists

(53:00):
because everyone should gettherapists.
We all got a teeth checked.
Right.
So how much to get a therapist?
And then, and I think like ifwe, if we do that, then, then
we're now broadening that Notonly support for our mental
health, but also the awarenessor the normality of it.
Right.
And anything that, that would bereally helpful.

(53:22):
I'm hearing a few differentthings, like not a few different
things, but I'm hearing likefrom Andrew, you were saying,
you know, for some of thesefolks, it's a lot of it is
internal awareness and, andthings that, you know, they need
to start taking responsibilityfor themselves.
It's not because of society.
It's not because of the womenthat they're not having sex.

(53:42):
It's because they need to workon not being an asshole, work on
some other self-confidence andwork on themselves so that, you
know, when they love themselvesand other people that then you
can attract more people to loveyou.
Right.
And we've said that many times,so it's, it's a self-worth
thing.
But then at the same time, wealso mentioned themes of society
and the pressures from society.
And, you know, maybe it'ssociety that needs to start

(54:04):
changing some stuff too.
So now we're, we're kind ofpivoting a little bit between
like individual responsibilityand then social responsibility.
And now I'm trying to bridge thetwo together thinking that,
okay, well, if we want societyto change, if we want to have a
different perspective ordifferent, I don't want to say
expectations, but I don't know adifferent story from what the

(54:28):
culture is telling us to do.
Then we as individuals have todo that for ourselves, right.
Because only when only whenindividuals change can society
change together.
I don't know anyone who is an incell.
I haven't come across and I justlearned about the term like
yesterday.

(54:49):
But if, if I try to put myselfin the shoes without knowing
anything about the folks.
Isn't that what they're doinglike in their minds, I'm not
saying it's right or wrong, butin their minds, it's okay.
We collectively, as insults haveto band together and support
each other to make a socialchange, to make a cultural
movement, to, you know, rid allof these, they call them Sandy's

(55:13):
and Chad's, which are all the,you know, good looking women and
all the good looking men in theworld.
And they have to stand up forthemselves.
So in a way, I feel like in thatcommunity, they are doing
something that is very, veryproud and they are supporting
social change.

Angie Yu (55:30):
So I think that the difference is like between the,
I think the term in cell hasbeen adopted by the people who
are not trying to okay.
Do a positive social change.
You know what I mean?
Like I think the term has beenadopted by like very radical
people.
And especially, I also blamemedia for doing that too,
because media will always labellike, Oh, this person who's a

(55:51):
known in sell on Reddit.
just drove the van through abunch of pedestrians, right?
Like it's also the mediacarrying away with this term.
but I think what you said, likewhen you Christie, when you
first started talking about likeself love and focusing on
ourselves, that's a narrativethat we have really adopted as
women in 2020.
Like you see that stuffeverywhere on Instagram, like,

(56:12):
love yourself.
fuck the patriarchy, loveyourself, blah, blah, blah.
And the reason why we say thatis we don't hate men.
We just, we hate the system, butmen can also hate the system.
But yeah, I think when they hearthe word, fuck the patriarchy,
they feel like we're hating onthem.
Whereas we're really saying,fuck the system.

(56:34):
This is just my perspective as awoman who has no idea what they
actually go through, but like,why is there no, like I agree
with you, Christie.
Like there should be a socialmovement where we're like, Hey,
men love yourself.
Like, love yourself, go pamperyourself, et cetera, do all this
stuff.
And there isn't that movement.

(56:56):
And how, how can we as womenhelp men feel more comfortable
embracing self-care andself-love.

Kristy Yee (57:04):
I think that is definitely a huge part of it.
Like we need to start doingthat.
Like self-care and self-love isnot just for women it's for
everybody, but I think the, whatI was trying to get at earlier
was.
Trying to see from the in cellsperspective that they are trying
to break the system.

(57:27):
Bye things.
By having these violent acts by,you know, speaking out in, in
the online community by sayinglike, Hey, this is, this is not
cool.
We're not getting any of thewomen.
And these are the reasons why,and so we need to band together
and support each other as fellowin cells and do something about
it to break the system.

(57:50):
the thing I agree with thesethings, especially the violent
part of it, right?
And the misogynistic themes fromit.
I don't, I personally don'tagree with it, but I can see how
it can be viewed as a member ofthe Intel community.
That this is a very righteousthing because they are changing
societal ex they, they feel likethey are wanting to break the

(58:12):
system or changing the societalexpectations.

And we don't think of it as a positive
change, but those within thatcommunity do, but who's to say,
you know, which one is morallyright or wrong, you know, it's
definitely not for us to decide.
And I think it's, it's

Kristy Yee (58:30):
Cause we're all like, yeah, we should change the
system.
This is it's, this it's acultural thing and we should do
that.
Okay.
We agree with it when it's stuffthat we believe rings true to
us, when we believe it's apositive change and we disagree
with the groups who have adifferent perspective from us,
but I can totally see themfeeling the same thing.
Like they think that this, thisis a good thing.

(58:53):
Right.

Angie Yu (58:53):
And that's how

Kristy Yee (58:54):
one of the article, I know exactly this is like
Wars, religion, all of it,because they believe that their
group is in the right and theyare doing the right thing.
So.
I think that's where thediscomfort comes from from me is
that I can see where they'recoming from because they are

(59:14):
supporting what they believe.
And they want to change thesystem, which is something that
I have advocated for before,just in a different context.
Right.
So then, you know,

Angie Yu (59:27):
I'm gonna play.
I'm gonna play the like meanperson here or the devil's
advocate here.
Here is like, if, if thecommunity really had that
message, I think everyone wouldbe a lot more supportive of it.
But because the message, theterm in cell in the Intel
community is so dominated bypeople who actually hate women.

(59:50):
I think that's where the problemcomes from is that their
movement is driven by hate andnot actually driven by love.

hate women, you know, inside and outside of that
community.

Angie Yu (01:00:00):
right.
No, and I, and I completelyagree.

Nathalie Cheung (01:00:04):
the right thing, the right thing out of
fear and

Kristy Yee (01:00:08):
so there's, there's that radical, there's a small
radical side.
And then there's everybody else.
Right.
And are we not doing the samething right now with the in cell
group?
Like there are, is a small, veryradical part that we don't, we
don't support all that violence.
but it doesn't mean thateverybody in that community is
like that.

(01:00:29):
And, one of the articles that Iread is that, you know, a part
of the incell community, theyactually underwent a schism.
When the groups began to divideinto more of a.
Violet misogynistic, you know,the, the parts that, the
characteristics, that us threedon't support.

(01:00:49):
And then there's the othergroup, which is called the in
cell support group, which is

Angie Yu (01:00:57):
I didn't know that.
I But that's media, right?
Like the reason why people that,the reason why people associate
the Islamic state with likemisogyny or associated them with
terrorists is because mediaplays up that narrative.
And when I had admitted that myfirst exposure to that term was

(01:01:18):
from this like violin person,that was my first exposure to
this term.
So my impression of in cells wasoff to a bad start.
So the fact that there's an incell support group, that's,
that's great.
I had no idea and I will admitmy ignorance here.
Like I had no idea there was agood side to in sales.

(01:01:39):
I didn't know.
I didn't know that they wantedto be associated with that term
because that term was so like,it was so villainized and media

This is a perfect example of the media,
just doing a big sort of us andthem.
That has exactly what hashappened here.
And thanks for pointing thatout.
See, cause I wouldn't have knowneither.

Angie Yu (01:02:01):
And that's why podcasts are important, right?
Because we're trying to put outmore voices because the
mainstream media is not going todo that for us.
Same thing with the voices thatwe represent, which is the Asian
voices.
Hey, we're not a monolith, etcetera.
we're not a virus.

I think this topic is so scary.
It makes you reallyuncomfortable to talk about, I
guess, something that we can doas Asian women that hopefully is
something that sort of bothsides, or maybe all three
groups, including us agree withis as well as self-care and
promoting self care and mentalhealth support for all, but also
just things like.
Like protecting Asian men.
And by that, I absolutely don'tmean break up with your white

(01:02:40):
boyfriend and they an Asian manone small example that I think
could have a really big impact.
There's just, don't let yourAsian male friends be the butt
of the joke.
We know it happens.
We know it happens, you know,it's not just like kids in
school.
It happens throughout people'slives and it's in the media as
well.
We like have known it happenedand it's continued to grow and

(01:03:00):
grow and it's not ourresponsibility to fix and change
it, but it is something that wecan

Angie Yu (01:03:07):
I agree.
And the, and the Dick sizething, like, that's one thing
that I've never been comfortablewith talking about with my
female friends, because whetherthey're Asian or not, like, why
are you reducing someone'sValley down to there?
The size of their organ.
Like, it's just so unfair.
Like if if a man was talkingabout, I don't know, like not
even our organs, but justtalking about the way we look

(01:03:27):
and making fun of it, like thatwould not be okay.

Yeah.
And I don't know about you, butDick is like the least important
part of sex for me.
Like take it or leave it.
It's not the most important partfor me.
That's all.

yup.
All through women here.
Just gonna put that out on theinternet.
It is the last thing that we'rethinking about.
Well, we had a lovely timechatting with you today, not, I
feel like we can just talkforever about so many different
topics and so many differentthings.
And I think that's becausethere's so many different topics

(01:04:03):
and so many different thingsthat are worthy be talking
about.
And so thank you again forcoming on to our show.
We had a lovely time chattingwith

Angie Yu (01:04:12):
Yeah.
And I'm just like, as apodcaster I'm like, what are we
going to name this episode?
Like lay there's, like, what arewe going to name this episode?
We've had so many good and likemeaningful conversations that
are so different from thedifferent spectrums, right?
Like,

We also talked about so many different things.
We started from talking aboutour careers.
we talked about, you know, thedifficulties sharing these
things with our parents, lifemilestones and expectations

I've really appreciated the space to share,
but also your insights, whichhas been a real eye opener for
me, You know, stuff that makesme feel uncomfortable, even
things that I haven't exploredon my own podcast yet, because
that is something which is,yeah, I've really appreciated
the space to share, but alsoyour insights, which has been a
real eye opener for me, I feltlike I'm going to have to listen
back to this episode that mightmake some notes about things

(01:05:06):
that you share, because it hasreally changed my perspective on
things, particularly thingsabout the Asian in sales, which
I don't even think of having aconversation with someone Asian
about it in, in like with myvoice.
Like it's all this stuff that Iread about.
I get scared in my own head andI don't even know how to talk
about it.
So thanks for sharing andcreating that space where we can
have a discussion about all thenuances about the difficult

(01:05:29):
topics as well.
So, mazing, I love your podcast.
Honestly.
I loved your episode withGeorgie and Chinese Tipico as
well.
Thanks for the space for BritishAsians.

We have to support each other.
Right.

Yeah, definitely.

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