July 4, 2021 • 54 mins
Steve describes a low point in his life and reveals his story of coming around in a full circle, from jet-setting, big-law life to a humble counsel in his hometown serving his community. We sat down with a much-admired community leader, Steve Ngo, a lawyer, social entrepreneur, husband, son, and dear friend. We discuss our external facades, the labels we put on ourselves, and what this all means for our mental health.
Highlights:
- Steve’s encounter with hate crime against Asians during the COVD-19 pandemic
- How Steve’s burnout led to him creating a space for mental health awareness in the legal profession
- Angie’s rant about how self-help books need a rebrand
- Steve’s relationship strategy on avoiding fights and focusing on each other’s strength
- Steve growing up poor, achieved external success, but ultimately came back to serve the community
Takeaways:
- We all have a facade, but it’s not fake, it’s one of many parts of who we are
- Personal development and growth keeps us at an advantage
- The darkest moments are when you and your partner learn the most about each other
- Unlearn the implicit communication style of our upbringing
- Keep the friends that bring you energy. Do the things that bring you energy.
Mentions & Resources:
- Asian-Canadian Community Tackle Hate Crime Reporting
- VPD adds forms in various languages for reporting anti-Asian racism
- Fix Police Reporting (Removing barriers to report anti-Asian hate crimes)
- Beyond the A
- Living Room Series Global
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Ngo (00:00):
I kinda adjust anything.
So
Angie Yu (00:01):
So now Christie, you're too low.
Kristy Yee (00:03):
Okay.
How about now?
Steve Ngo (00:04):
That's better.
Kristy Yee (00:05):
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,
Angie Yu (00:07):
So
Steve Ngo (00:07):
it in post.
That's the
Angie Yu (00:09):
fixing them
Kristy Yee (00:09):
That's you know what?
Fuck it.
Just post, post everythingeverything's in post.
Okay.
Steve Ngo (00:39):
I'm excited for this.
I appreciate this.
And you guys are the best.
You'd see the best
Kristy Yee (00:47):
okay.
are we good to go?
Alrighty then welcome back toanother episode of shit.
We don't tell mom where we getcomfortable with the
uncomfortable.
And today we're going to betalking with Steve.
No, who is our dear friend.
And he, okay.
This is going to take a while.
And if you could hear clickingsounds because I have this whole
(01:09):
spiel for Steve, because he'slike this whole other human that
I sometimes don't know if he'sreally a human, because, okay,
so here we go, Steve.
He is a self-proclaimed socialentrepreneur.
So what does that mean?
That means he is a founder slashco founder to a crap ton of
non-profit organization.
(01:29):
of which include beyond the a,which helps to de-stigmatize
anxiety in the legal professionand empower lawyers in their
careers.
There's the living room series,which has been mentioned on the
podcast a couple of timesalready, probably more than a
couple.
but the living room series, whatis it?
It is basically we hang out andwe talk about whole bunch of
(01:53):
just stuff that you don't reallytalk about.
We have meaningful conversationwith diverse groups of people.
Basically Steve brings in allthese people from around the
community, people, strangers,basically.
And then we come together and wetalk about deep stuff.
And most recently Steve has leda campaign on anti-Asian hate
crime reporting.
(02:15):
found out that there is a hugesystemic barrier to reporting
and Thai, Asian hate crimes inthe Vancouver community.
And now he's all over the place.
He's all over the news.
He is also a lawyer.
He's a musician.
He is a husband and he is ourgood friend.
Welcome Steve to the show.
Steve Ngo (02:34):
You did awesome.
I love it.
I'm glad to be here.
Thank you so much.
What an intro?
You should do my intro for everysingle talk
Kristy Yee (02:40):
Oh, I'd love to, I have this like secret secret
fantasy that I want to do voiceovers one day.
You know, I just want to dovoice stuff all the time.
Oh,
Angie Yu (02:51):
that.
Kristy Yee (02:52):
Steve's also a TEDx speaker by the way, because you
know, he just doesn't do enough.
And so in his spare time, helikes to give speeches.
Steve, that was a lot of stuff.
I, I am truly honored to befriends with you because I get
to see all the cool things thatyou do.
And it really motivates me as ahuman being to do more things.
(03:16):
But I always wonder, do you everget tired?
Steve Ngo (03:23):
Do I ever get tired?
Yeah.
I lost a lot yesterday.
Like fell asleep on my seat,just here, like at like 1130.
I was like, like this, I calledit meditating.
Maybe I think I was sleeping.
Kristy Yee (03:35):
Sometimes when I meditate, I end up falling
asleep.
Why I ask this is because I feellike, okay, on social media,
this is that's where I mostlysee your work.
And on social media, you'realways doing something.
And then you take it to a wholeother level.
you were a victim of some hatecrimes recently.
(03:58):
I think if that happened to me,I would have ranted about it on
social media.
And then I would, you know, getsome comments and feedback from
friends and say like, oh yeah,that really sucks.
And blah, blah, blah.
Right.
But you took it to a wholefucking other level.
You like got the media involved.
It's now on the globe and mail,like, it has blown up in a way
that is, should be blown up.
And he's on the cover of theVancouver sun.
(04:20):
that's Steve compared to regularfolks like me, but I always
wonder behind the scenes, whatis that like?
Steve Ngo (04:30):
Yeah, let's dive into it.
I'm happy.
I'm happy to peel the layer backand go deep though.
Happy to jump in and whereveryou want to start.
Kristy Yee (04:38):
Why don't you tell us a bit about how beyond the AA
got started?
Because I know offline, you hadmentioned some anxiety in the
past, there's been some lowpoints, and this is something
that I don't see on social mediafrom Steve's page, because I
just see all these campaignsthat you run.
(05:00):
I feel like I would be veryburnt out if I were involved in
so many things, but I also feellike maybe Steve does get really
tired and Steve might feel somelevels of anxiety at times as
well.
And seeing that you had startedbeyond the AE makes me wonder
(05:22):
there must have been somethingthat had happened for you to
feel like.
is important to talk about,especially in the legal
profession.
Steve Ngo (05:31):
Really there's, there's two things I want to
highlight in the middle of thefirst thing is whether it's
getting tired or not.
It gives us the realization.
If you're doing things that giveyou energy.
awesome.
Like, so speaking of the TV,give me energy is this is like
the highlight of mine, likenight.
I had that my day actually.
So it's really about that.
but the second one on, beyondthe AI.
(05:52):
So for myself, I, I, when I wasan undergrad, I thought about
being a doctor, like a typicalAsian kid and that wasn't for
me.
So I decided to be a lawyer.
Why not?
so I went to law school.
I worked at one of the, probablyone of the most so-called
prestigious law firms in Canada.
and I was feeling miserable andI thought maybe I need to chase
something bigger.
So I landed a job at one time.
(06:13):
Prestigious law firms in theworld, thinking that that would
be my solution to happiness.
And when you're chasing thesevisuals, these dreams of what
you think is happiness.
That's whenever they crushed meinside.
So about maybe a couple monthsinto my time working in Asia, I
had this ex-pat lifestyle and Iwas living this big life.
I had VIP access to parties,waterfront and apartments.
(06:37):
like I private driver, butreally I was dying inside and
there was this one moment.
I remember I was actuallystanding on the ledge of my
balcony, seriously thinkingabout whether I wanted to keep
living or not.
And that's when I realized that.
Man things have really changedand no one really talks about
(06:59):
anxiety in the profession.
No one talks about depressionwhen legal profession, it's all
about this glamour, this nicesuits, lifestyle, your jet
setting, you have like free flowalcohol and food, but really
that's just a shell when insidework on the insides and talk
about things like that.
There's nothing.
And so I was crumbling insideand I was so fortunate to have
(07:23):
really good friends that I couldturn to because I say, I talked
to my best friends, like this iswhat's happening right now.
And it gave me a big wake upcall and it just so happened
that week.
I had a buddy fly in fromVancouver and I shared with
them, I'm going through.
And he said, Stephen, I'm goingthrough the same thing as well.
Kristy Yee (07:41):
Yeah.
Steve Ngo (07:42):
And it just opened up my mind.
There must be other lawyers whoare keeping this inside.
And so that's what beyond theA's about it.
Censored beyond A's beyondachievement, beyond anxiety.
Because anxiety is sostigmatized and legal profession
and the whole purpose andmission is to de-stigmatize
anxiety and to empower lawyersto thrive in their lives and
career.
Kristy Yee (08:03):
take us back to that night when you were on the
balcony and you felt like youhad the whole world, because you
have all this glitz, you haveall the glamour that suits stuff
that we're familiar with, butyou also felt so empty.
Those are two opposing feelings.
(08:24):
Can you share a little bit moreabout what are some of your
thoughts and emotions in thatmoment when you were on the
belt?
Steve Ngo (08:31):
Yeah.
So I think it was a slow, it wasa slow burn, right?
It was a slow buildup to thatmoment.
It wasn't like suddenly that,boom, this is what's happening,
but it was a slow buildup.
And so just to, to backtrack alittle bit.
I was living in Vietnam and, youknow, I started chasing these
external validations to makemyself feel better.
And I felt like I was chasingthe, really the wrong goals that
(08:53):
week.
And that night when it happened,I was on a couple of massive
deals.
And because you're working on somany things at the same time, I
was barely sleeping.
I was like collapsing on mytable, like going from two to
six in the morning, likesleeping four hours.
And I made a mistake that day atwork.
absolutely my fault becausethere's so many things going on.
I wasn't in the right mind spaceand I suddenly questioned like,
(09:14):
am I good enough to be a lawyer?
Do I deserve to be here?
And it really crushed my soul.
And then you start to,everything starts to unraveling
at that point, you know, I'msomeone who does carry a very
positive demeanor.
I had this happy-go-luckyattitude and it made me, it gave
me this really shock in mysystem that this affects
(09:34):
anybody, anybody, absolutely.
Anybody.
You could have this rockstarapparently from the surface.
It just shows that there is, youknow, there's a facade and
that's kind of what I want toopen up about it is that there
is a facade in the way thingscome across and it's okay to
talk about it.
Angie Yu (09:52):
I have goosebumps.
It felt like your emotions werekind of coming up again, because
I really felt the emotionsthrough the screen.
You were like, you know,everything is just a facade.
Like every, everyone has stuffgoing on behind them.
Yeah.
That's exactly what beyond EI istrying to emphasize.
That's exactly what our podcastis trying to emphasize.
And yet it happens in whetheryou're, you're trying to look
(10:13):
like the Wolf of wall street, orif you're trying to look like
the perfect Asian son or, youknow, we all, we all have this
stuff.
That's stuff, the shit justbubbling inside.
Yeah.
Kristy Yee (10:28):
I think social media.
we don't have to be the ones tosay how stressful it can be, but
also how great it can be.
Right.
And there's this, there's afacade that we do put on and
sometimes it's a consciousthing.
I, you know, you, you're gonnatake a bunch of nice pictures
(10:48):
and post it on, on Facebook.
Like there's a very intentionalthing.
Sometimes I think, you know, wedo it subconsciously because we
want the validation.
And so we only choose to put in.
Genuine parts of ourselves, butselective lead, genuine parts of
(11:10):
ourselves.
So, Steve, you mentioned like,you know, your, you present
yourself as a happy-go-luckyperson.
I think you truly are ahappy-go-lucky person because I
feel your happiness and yourenthusiasm exuding out of your
body.
Like some aura surrounding you,you know, like there's this glow
and that's real, you know, likeyour smile that's, that's real.
(11:33):
But I think what's important isthat that's not the only Steve.
Angie Yu (11:38):
that's Right.
Yep.
Kristy Yee (11:39):
And I think for any of our listeners out there, you
know, when we're scrollingthrough our social media and we
see people's happyrelationships, people's like
wonderful jobs, big houses.
We know that, you know, we'rehappy for them and they probably
worked really hard for it.
But we don't, really see what'sbehind closed doors
Angie Yu (12:03):
You don't see the drudgery of everyday life in
other people's life, but youexperienced the drudgery in your
own life if you don't reallyinternalize the fact that
everything you see from otherpeople, not just social media or
just the way they are, it's notreally a facade.
It's, it's just a part of themthat everybody else sees.
And I think that's the, that'sthe one thing that I think our
(12:24):
generation is learning as we'regetting older, is that, Hey,
there's this other side of me,or like, it's difficult to be on
all the time.
It's still real.
It's that's still their house.
That's still their baby.
That's still their wedding, butthat's only a small portion of
their entire life because theirvalue is beyond a big house or a
(12:45):
baby or a wedding.
Kristy Yee (12:46):
And also like that snapshot, that happy moment,
snapshot is just that snapshot.
Like, it's that one happy momentin their life, but there's 24
hours in a day.
Like they don't look like thatall the time.
Angie Yu (13:02):
Yeah, everyone only has 24 hours a day.
Despite what Steve might haveyou think about his his hour.
Steve Ngo (13:11):
you both said it's so well.
Right.
And it's, and really leading tothat point.
And I love the work that you'redoing with this podcast.
You are creating space and youare too honestly super endearing
friends of mine at that timewhen I was in that moment,
everyone's life seemed soperfect.
And I thought that it was justhere's the thing.
I thought that it was just me.
(13:32):
Maybe I was the weird one.
Maybe I was the one who, who,who, who has this?
I'm supposed to be happy.
Right?
I have this crazy lifestyle Icould jets at anywhere.
I don't mean to break here.
Right?
I could jets air.
I want maybe it's just me.
Why am I feeling this way?
And that's what caused thatdoubt.
It starts to spiral because atthat time, three, four years
(13:54):
ago, I don't even remember threeyears ago, three years ago,
stuff like this wasn't eventaught develop in the legal
profession.
Not just anybody, especiallylegal profession.
It blew my mind because lastmonth beyond a we hosted a talk
with the law society of BC.
That's actually been my goalsince I started being on a is to
(14:15):
actually address the law
Angie Yu (14:16):
Wow.
Steve Ngo (14:17):
And I talked to Lausanne at BC law society of
Ontario.
They would never have this kindof talk.
And I invited judges invitedsome really top notch lawyers to
share their experience.
And the one story that someoneshared was their wife was
pregnant and they actuallybrought their laptops at a
hospital in betweencontractions.
He was doing work and writing.
(14:39):
How messed up is that?
Angie Yu (14:42):
Wow.
Steve Ngo (14:43):
even a couple of years ago.
No one talked about it andthat's what I want to do because
I know for a fact don't get mewrong.
It's still a dark times, but Ithought it was just me at that
time.
And I think if I had that avenueheard that talk, I would have
been a catch myself a littleearlier.
Kristy Yee (15:05):
are you managing your anxiety right now, Steve?
Steve Ngo (15:09):
It's it's.
So since that moment it's beendefinitely a journey to really
understand myself.
And I started to really read,not just books on business and
how to communicate, but books onyourself, books on understanding
who I am.
And at that time living roomstairs was still going on.
And that was so helpful.
Right.
but a lot of it is journalingunderstanding what gives me
(15:31):
energy, talking to the YouTubegives me energy.
I'm not tired at all.
Actually I could do this likeall day, but there's stuff that
does drain you.
And how do you counterbalancethat?
Right.
Just being hyper aware.
Also another thing that I'mdoing, I'm very cognizant of it.
It's just surrounding myselfwith people, the right people,
and just seeing who gives youenergy, who dreams.
(15:52):
I think it's a conscious,conscious thing that I'm doing
in it.
You both are experts at this, soI don't need to be preaching to
the choir here, but that's
Angie Yu (16:00):
Whoa.
Whoa, whoa, whoa,
Kristy Yee (16:01):
not experts display everybody.
Just.
Angie Yu (16:04):
whoa.
Our motto is, is that, Hey,we're not experts here.
Like this is literally like oneof our souls.
We're not experts, but we'regoing to talk about it anyway.
Steve Ngo (16:13):
I must say, not experts, but I must say that,
you know, even Angie, like Ithink last year, I think I was
going through some shit I'd worktoo.
And you're the one of the firstpeople I called and that's,
cause I know that you give thespace to listen.
So what do you mean extra?
Like maybe x-rayed in my mind asfriends that I know I can turn
to.
And there's friends that I'vestarted to distance away from.
(16:34):
I don't mean to name names, butI don't really see them anymore
because I know that we're justtalking about drinking and beers
and I used to be that guy too.
Don't get me wrong.
I still am parts of it stillthat that's still part of you.
Okay.
There's still that party side ofme don't get me wrong.
Right.
I'm not faking any of this, butit's just whether you can have
that kind of conversation,right.
Angie Yu (16:51):
I'm, I'm glad I was able to be there to hear you
out.
I didn't even think of it aslike anything special, cause I
know that you would do the samefor me
Kristy Yee (17:00):
but that's the thing, right?
Like when, when we are being afriend to another friend, we are
happily there to be an ear to bea shoulder because we love that
other person, but we neverreally think about how impactful
it is for the person receivingit on the other end.
We're just doing it because welove them.
Right.
It's like no big deal.
(17:21):
Right.
If any one of you call me, I'mlike, yeah, let's, let's talk.
And, and if I call any one ofyou, because I feel really shit,
it is so much more meaningful onmy end.
I mean, I'm sure it's great onyour end too, but it, you know,
just like how Steve you're, youwere mentioning, like when you
were back in Vietnam, you werelucky to have a great friend
(17:44):
around at that time.
It's almost like serendipity.
That your friend from Vancouvercame all the way to the other
side of the world where you feltsuper isolated on your own, even
though you're surrounded byglitz and glamour, but they were
there for you and you were ableto talk it through.
And how impactful was thatconversation to hear that your
(18:05):
friend was also going throughthe same thing?
Steve Ngo (18:07):
Words, can you even describe how impactful it is?
Right.
When you're in the thick ofthings, it's so easy to it's.
So it's always so easy to say,oh, just do that, do that.
But when you're in the midst ofit, you're in a spiral and we
all go through spirals and itjust, that's just part of life
too.
Right.
And if anything, that COVID hastaught all of us, whether I'm
(18:30):
grateful for or not, is thatmental health is real anxiety
and depression is real and itaffects each and every single
one of us.
And that's also the beauty.
I honestly think that thisgeneration, I don't need to be
like those old guys, hisgeneration.
Right.
But this period of time, there'sa lot of self-awareness, which
(18:51):
is way more than what it was inthe past when, in our parents'
path and our mom or dad.
Gosh, if we don't tell her mom,right, they keep it a silent.
It's like, it's like a shell.
There's a stone in front ofthem.
They're just the heart.
Angie Yu (19:03):
Yeah.
That's right.
And you know, what's funny whenyou said, like you came back
from Vietnam, you felt this likeurge to just really find out
more about yourself.
So you were, you've been readingall of these books of like
self-help books.
And I read a lot of self-helpbooks, but I hate calling
themselves.
Because it shouldn't be likeyou're helping yourself.
We should just be part of yourlife.
I guess it is like, like theyshould be rebranded to like self
(19:26):
care or even just life,
Kristy Yee (19:30):
life books.
Angie Yu (19:30):
life
Kristy Yee (19:31):
I read life
Angie Yu (19:32):
yeah, I read a book because it makes us sound like
it makes us sound like you havea problem,
Kristy Yee (19:39):
Ah.
Okay.
Angie Yu (19:40):
but I don't like that because it shouldn't have to be
late as a problem for you to belike, you know what?
I want to learn how to be abetter listener.
I want to learn how to connectwith myself better or connect
with other people better.
Or I want to know how tojournal.
I want to know, know how to likeconnect with the side of me.
Why does it have to be a problembefore we can do it?
(20:01):
Like you go to the bookstore andI say this because I just went
to the bookstore earlier thisweek.
So this is all in my head.
You go to the bookstore, right?
You see sections like lifestyle.
Okay.
You walk over to lifestyle.
What do they tell how you had todo, how do you cook?
How do you garden?
How do you, I don't know,fashion, stuff like that.
and yeah.
Okay.
That's lifestyle.
(20:22):
But then you go over to theself-help book and there's this
like ominous tone, Like,lifestyle.
It's like, oh, glitzy, glamor.
Like, oh my God, let's cook allthese fantastic things.
Look at all my plants.
And then you walk over to theself-help section as just like
gray.
It's like welcome.
(20:43):
Come to the nihilistic corner ofchapters in the go.
Kristy Yee (20:47):
Like, oh, your life sucks.
Here's the place to be
Angie Yu (20:51):
Oh, you've hit rock bottom.
Let us introduce you to our topfive recommendations.
Like what.
Steve Ngo (20:57):
Okay.
Angie Yu (20:59):
Like we determined, normalized self-help stuff more
because it's not self-help, it'sjust, Yeah.
It's life.
Steve Ngo (21:06):
Yeah.
I like to call it personalgrowth and personal development.
Actually, if you don't readthose books, you're actually at
a disadvantage.
That's how I see it.
Angie Yu (21:13):
That's very lawyerly.
Just kidding.
Kristy Yee (21:17):
with Steve on this one.
Angie Yu (21:19):
I agree.
As well, especially when I hearabout what the younger
generations are up to, I feellike, you know, maybe for our
parents generation, we're moreahead of them in terms of, I
don't know, technology, etcetera.
We're understanding theinternet.
And I feel the younger kids,they grew up like learning about
(21:39):
emotional intelligence, liketruly learning about emotional
intelligence and how to applyit.
Not just like, oh, this is whatemotional intelligence is.
So we're falling behind.
If we don't do the workourselves and then we won't be
able to connect with it.
Kristy Yee (21:53):
I'm going to bring it back to this whole social
media facade thing.
You, you do all these things.
You like create all theseorganizations and now.
And you're like, oh, I just passout on the couch.
I just pass out on the table.
I have all these things
Angie Yu (22:09):
I can sleep with my eyes open while writing
contracts.
Kristy Yee (22:15):
Something else that I see a lot on your social media
is you and your wife have thisfabulous relationship, but you
guys go on these like randommini vacations and go to
vineyards.
And like, you guys look like,like the couple, you know, and
I've met your wife a few times.
She's the lovely person I'm sureon the back end.
(22:39):
There's more than what meets theeye.
Tell us, tell us more about whatyour relationship is like with,
with your wife?
Steve Ngo (22:50):
This is so funny because the moment he said that
she came home, I could hear herhumming in the background.
It was so timely.
Kristy Yee (23:01):
No, I sensed her.
Steve Ngo (23:03):
Yeah.
I'm happy to, to, to kind oflike set the context and set the
tone here to, to give somecontext.
I met my wife actually atStarbucks.
I had picked her up at aStarbucks.
I, she was sitting across fromme and I just, you know, got her
number, you know, somethingthat's not as smooth, but it
worked out and I'm one for one,one for random pickups.
Like this is,
Angie Yu (23:23):
Yeah, you were, you've reached your peak.
You can't go back now.
Steve Ngo (23:26):
yeah, it does.
It feels like at the earlystages of Tinder and whatever it
is.
So thank God I miss that.
yeah, it's it was, it was sointeresting because all my past
relationships, I was alwayswaiting for the shoe to drop I'm
like, it must have, she must becrazy.
Right.
She must be something like,maybe she has like a secret
boyfriend or something, but likenothing ever happened.
so, but it wasn't until like,wasn't until a couple of years
(23:47):
in you know, one of the things Ilove about Michelle is that
she's such a explicitcommunicator.
Nothing's like off limits andshe's very upfront and very
clear.
but we, we, we do have ups anddowns for sure.
And it actually takes, took areally and dark moment for us to
really learn from that andreally figure it out.
And there was a point when wehad actually almost we were
(24:09):
engaged I was in Vietnam and wehad actually almost canceled our
wedding.
And this is something that bothof us are actually, we, we, we
actually really liked talkingabout this to friends because I
think it's important to kind ofopen up the Pandora's box two
per se.
Kristy Yee (24:28):
How did it come to you guys almost counseling your
wedding?
Like what was behind the scenes?
Steve Ngo (24:35):
Yeah.
And I wanted to pause thereearlier and and when I go deeper
into it so set the context megoing to be at home is actually,
it really was my choice.
Like it really me driving thedecision.
And at first she was like, Hey,you go first for the first
couple of months, you go explorea little bit and then I'm going
to come join you.
but a couple of months, yeah.
She had to change a mind.
You're like, you know, I don'tthink I want to come here
anymore.
(24:56):
And at first I felt betrayedbecause like, oh, we made this
promise.
You'll come here with me and nowyou're not coming.
I felt like, you know, you, youwithdrew your word.
And for her, she realized thatthis wasn't, this was really,
really me pushing my agendaalong.
And it, and it got to the pointwhere we and our wedding was
coming up in a couple of months.
Right.
(25:17):
And for some reason, my gut wassaying, you know, we got to
bring in a third person, we'vegot to bring him to like a, like
a, a third party to kind of hearus out a little bit.
and I'm really fortunate.
I did, I do want to give a shoutout to Daniel and dyno is a a
mentor of mine.
And he, the three of us got inthe chat with Daniel, it's it
(25:38):
kind of used to be a marriagecounselor.
And we talked about, and wasn'teven married.
Right.
So we talked about what we wereboth looking for and.
It's so funny, we, he made usdecide realize that we were both
looking for the same things meand Michelle were looking for.
Our long-term goal was to beback in Vancouver and start a
family.
Right?
Whether we get there is adifferent story, how do we get
(26:00):
those different stories?
And he just opened up this newthinking meeting in two of us,
they say that you, it is in yourdarkest moments in deepest
moments is when you learn themost about each other.
And I'm so I don't know iffortunate is the right word of
saying, but I'm kind of gladthat's also not the right word,
but you know what I mean?
(26:20):
That we kind of went throughthat because now we kind of
figure out how we work.
So since that moment we, yeah,we have a system going on.
Anytime we get into like anykind of fight, I suppose we have
a system where we try to assesswho has a stronger opinion here.
And if they have a strongopinion, they usually get their
way.
And that's how we decide thingseven planning the wedding was
that.
(26:40):
Really smooth.
Surprisingly, since that moment,cause wedding planning is a
whole new level.
Right.
But it was really like, we justlisted out those 10, 20 things
like, Hey, who has a strongopinion?
You make the call who has astronger opinion, make the call.
And that's the system we haveanytime we'd get into this kind
of like tussle and that's been
Kristy Yee (26:57):
like if, if Michelle cared more about flowers than
Michelle makes the call kind ofa thing, or like, if, if Steve
cares more about what's on themenu, then you're going to make
the call.
Steve Ngo (27:08):
absolutely.
That's exactly it.
And this happened actually acouple months ago.
so my wife and I are expectingwe're expecting our baby
daughter
Angie Yu (27:23):
Okay.
Steve Ngo (27:23):
on podcast
Kristy Yee (27:27):
Yo, congrats,
Steve Ngo (27:28):
live and outset.
Kristy Yee (27:29):
Oh my God.
You're going to be a father.
Angie Yu (27:31):
haven't announced it yet,
Steve Ngo (27:33):
I, I haven't.
I mean, cause right now I'm likeon my social media, all about
this like campaign thing.
Right.
So Michelle just post Michelle'sposted it up on her Facebook and
stuff.
I've done like Instagram, justlike privately just to like,
whatever.
Right.
I haven't, we only did the bigannouncement yesterday.
Angie Yu (27:50):
Wow.
Oh my God.
Christie.
Are you okay?
Kristy Yee (27:57):
I'm just thinking, I'm like, I'm going to tell my
mom.
Angie Yu (28:01):
Oh Yeah.
because you guys have mutual
Kristy Yee (28:03):
I know Steve's mom and my mom are friends.
We don't tell them a lot ofshit.
Steve Ngo (28:11):
Just to like close the loop on the story, we were
just debating about like babynames eight in the middle name.
And like, I was like, I don'thave a strong opinion on the
middle name.
So like eco for it, stuff likethat.
Like that's how we, that's howwe make does it.
Kristy Yee (28:24):
I love that because a lot of times I find.
Especially when I talk withfriends and they like bitch
about their spouses or partners,it's always, there's always a
little bit of a tip-toe wheneverthere comes to be at
decision-making, like you don't,you may have an opinion, but
you're afraid to voice that you,you have this strong opinion.
(28:47):
So you allow your partner to belike, oh, what do you think when
you have already made your owndecisions?
And then you are upset when,when your partner doesn't come
to the same conclusion as youdo, when, when you could have
just been like, Hey, I actuallyreally care about the middle
name.
And so let's just avoid all ofthat other bullshit
conversation.
We don't even need to have allof that other stuff.
Angie Yu (29:09):
That's right.
Yeah.
And I and you know what, that'sanother thing that we can bring
back a little bit, bring back tolike the Asian culture is that
the Asian culture is soimplicit.
Everything's about context,context, that nobody really
wants to put their foot down andbe like, I want this because
it's considered like not politeor something like that.
If you go, Hey, we're going todo this.
So I feel like for, you know,our generation being the kids of
(29:32):
immigrant parents, like a lot ofit is like, we're trying to
learn how to do that with ourfriends, with our partners.
and then eventually with ourparents, it's almost like a
reverse,
Kristy Yee (29:43):
And it's not like we're, we're, you know, being a
dictator, I couldn't think of abetter way to, I'm gonna make
all these decisions.
It's it's like we're opening upthe conversation, you know, when
it comes to, Hey, baby, middlename, like, do you, how much do
you care about it?
Angie Yu (30:00):
Yeah,
Kristy Yee (30:00):
We're inviting the other person and then respecting
what their thoughts are, andthen weighing that, you know,
prioritize, weighing how much itmatters to the other.
And I think starting aconversation like that is, is a
really good tip.
What happens when you both careabout something equally?
Steve Ngo (30:22):
Yeah.
Usually if we do, we give it acouple of days and whoever still
has the strong opinion, likethey'll carry the day.
So like, yeah, maybe at thebeginning we might both might
care about it, but honestly, 90%of the time someone will have a
stronger opinion and some willhave a weaker opinion.
And when you know that, Hey,they actually have a strong
(30:42):
opinion about this.
Most of the times, like, yeah,by all means, go ahead.
It's really just aboutlistening.
And you know, every relationshipis different, right?
Like, you know, it's, I've beenreally bad.
I want to talk about reallybuild on Angie's point earlier.
So much of what we do aboutrelationships and what we think
is the right thing to do is fromour parents.
And they had no idea whatthey're doing.
(31:03):
There's all this past trauma forthem that borrowed from their
parents.
It's just carried through andcarried down.
Angie Yu (31:08):
goes all the way back to Gang cause con you know,
like,
Steve Ngo (31:11):
Gang is calm.
Gosh, right?
Yeah, because you learn to lovefrom, by seeing how your parents
were alive, but it's, itdefinitely does carry down.
And so the system that seeingwho has a strong opinion has
actually worked really well.
And if at first we both mighthave the same strong opinion,
but after a couple of days, likesomeone's going to have a
(31:31):
stronger opinion will have aless strong opinion.
Angie Yu (31:34):
yeah,
Steve Ngo (31:34):
It's not about winning at this point, right?
It's you're not, you're notkeeping score.
Angie Yu (31:37):
Yeah.
Earlier at the, oh, I, while nota while back earlier, you
mentioned like in your, first ofall, I'm so happy for You and
Michelle, like congratulationsagain.
Oh, you're expected.
Ah that's super exciting news.
And we're the first podcast toannounce it.
Ladies and
Kristy Yee (31:53):
You hurt your
Angie Yu (31:54):
you heard it here first you mentioned that in your
(32:31):
previous relationships, you werealways waiting for the shoe to
drop.
He loved like, what do you meanby that?
Steve Ngo (32:40):
Yeah.
I, I sometimes don't understandmyself too, like I'm optimistic,
but also a skeptic it's strange,right?
Angie Yu (32:52):
optimist.
Steve Ngo (32:52):
Yeah.
Like in, in the legalprofession, skeptics actually do
really well.
And that's, my lawyers are goodbecause we actually don't really
believe what people say.
We actually like to dive in anddig in deep.
And so that's a good or badtrait.
It could be terrible for mentalhealth.
but when I talk about shoot adrop, it is just looking at past
(33:13):
relationships.
I've always been thinking like,you know, is this really it?
Like I'm waiting.
Is there something bad going tohappen?
Is that weird sense of like, youknow, anticipating bad things to
happen?
I don't know.
I think, I think part of it isprobably drawn from super,
super, like personal here atthis point Marisol school, right
in I remember in like elementaryschool, like I was a chubby kid.
(33:35):
Right.
And so for me to like, when anygirl who liked me, like, I was
so excited, I just like jumpedright into it.
Right.
And like, you know, it justended up in really bad
relationships, especially inhigh school university.
I would just, you know, I wouldsometimes date someone, maybe, I
didn't know, like them as much.
(33:56):
And I feel absolutely terriblesaying this on air you know,
good or bad bait.
Every single one of themactually found like the better
half.
And they each gotten married.
It's actually all my four axes.
They all like made the guy afterme is, I don't know what that
means, but so maybe that's agood thing.
Kristy Yee (34:13):
Community
Angie Yu (34:14):
them straight community service.
Steve Ngo (34:17):
I, a lot in both, I made them realize what they
didn't want.
Right.
So part of, part of the shoedropping is that sometimes like
a year in, I like this is notthe right fit.
And that's what I mean next tothe shoe dropping.
And so when I first metMichelle, I'm like, here we go
again, like in a year from now,we're going to whatever.
Right.
And then show me this other guyand they're gonna get married.
(34:37):
Right.
I was like, oh, the pattern ishappening, but has not happened.
Won't happen.
Hopefully.
Just kidding.
Kristy Yee (34:45):
I mean, you guys are married and there's a kid coming
along.
So.
Angie Yu (34:49):
And I think from just what you told me, like how you
guys went through this prettybig dark ish moment in your
relationship, like you, like yousaid, like your, You don't want
to say, you're glad it happened,but I think.
like you're thankful for what itbrought you.
Like you're thankful for what itdid bring into the relationship.
(35:10):
because I think that wasprobably when you would expect
the shoe to drop kind of thing,but you guys got through that
with some mediation and withlearning about each other.
And because of that, that's whatmakes this relationship
different.
Because you are different, notanticipating for the shoe to
drop anymore because yourmindset is different.
(35:32):
That's what I think as anon-expert.
Steve Ngo (35:35):
no.
And it kind of leads me back towhen you were describing the
self-help book of, of grayness.
And there's a term that's tossedaround a lot and I'm, this is
going to be verycounter-culture, but I'm just
going to say it anyways.
Right?
There's a lot of talk aboutresilience and there's a school
of thought where resilience islike you just putting up a
front, you're just protectingthat, that castle, the
(35:56):
resilience is built fromactually going through some
harsh.
That's actually how resilienceis developed when you go through
hard shit.
That's when you developresilience.
So as shitty and crappy, as itfeels, looking back, obviously
always easy to look back, butthat's one of the resilience is
built up.
So building like Lincoln to thistopic, I'm actually glad
(36:18):
Michelle had that really toughmoment, right before we got
married.
Because, you know, if thishappened, like down the road, I
don't know.
Right.
And I, you know, I'm not anexpert either.
Right.
But I do think there's somethingimportant about resilience and
having going through tough timesI had a buddy who got married to
his wife and then they moved intogether, like after the wedding
(36:42):
and they never had any real,like, hard toxin, then, you
know, now they're separated, butgood or bad.
Maybe if they had that resilientmoment beforehand, you could
kind of figure things out.
So I'm not preaching.
I'm not telling you guys to allgo through big fights at all,
but I'm just trying to say thatresilience is developed from
tough situation.
Okay,
Kristy Yee (36:59):
Yeah,
Angie Yu (37:00):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Kristy Yee (37:03):
we're all going to go and like pick up the phone,
find our partners, right.
Start digging up some dirt.
That's not what we mean here,folks.
Steve Ngo (37:10):
sorry.
I take no liability on this,
Kristy Yee (37:15):
But I agree like this goes for whether you're
building resilience in arelationship like with your
partner or with friendships, oreven with relationship with
peers.
Because when, when you are ableto pick yourself back up, when
you have gone through lowmoments, dark moments, places of
(37:39):
anxiety, places of depression,and then you come out of that,
then that also makes you moreresilient.
Steve Ngo (37:48):
Yeah.
I, I absolutely resonate withthat.
Right.
and I'm just thinking ahead,right.
You know, how do you teach kidsresilience?
Right.
And how do you teach yourdaughter resilience?
Like, do you just make themhomeless on the street to make
them realize like, this is like,like, I don't know.
Right.
Like I actually, I grew upreally poor.
Like I remember food donations.
(38:10):
I remember like wearing likeyous clothes.
I remember going to theChristmas bureau every year and
picking out the toy.
Actually, I realize what washappening until like many years
later, because there was one daya year.
My dad would drive me to thisplace and he'd be like, pick any
toy you want.
I'm like any toy.
This is like toys R us, butfree.
And it was such a powerfulmoment for me when I was young
(38:32):
that I could do this.
And so I don't know.
Right.
It there's a lot of openquestions.
Right.
It's about Brazilians, but ithas shaped my life and made me
really appreciate the power ofcommunity, the power of service
and the power of giving back,because it helped me with my
life and I want to keep itgoing.
And that's my intent here.
That's why I'm doing thesedifferent projects.
Cause it's it's I don't know.
(38:53):
This sounds so cheesy, but partof it is I just feel like a
moral obligation or even just acalling obligation.
It's too hard.
Like it's, it's actually a bitof a calling actually.
Angie Yu (39:03):
Okay.
Kristy Yee (39:04):
That's so beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
That's people see us in labels.
Like I, I listed some labelswhen I introduced you.
I'm like Steve is a lawyer.
He's a musician, he's a socialentrepreneur.
He's a husband behind everysingle label.
There is so much more to thatperson.
(39:30):
And I think a lot of times weonly pick one of those labels.
Like I just listed like four orfive things about UCF, but a lot
of times we present ourselveswith just one of these labels,
like lawyer, and then we willall have this preconceived
notion of what that means,because we all know we close our
(39:51):
eyes and we ha we imagine alawyer.
And then you have all thesestereotypes that come with it.
And I don't think many folkswould think about a struggling
kid with two immigrant parentsin Canada who visited the
Christmas bureau every year, whomoved to the other side of the
(40:13):
world and ended up on a balconyone night and question their
life purpose.
We don't think about any ofthese moments, but it's all of
these moments that actually makeyou who you are.
Angie Yu (40:30):
you would not be the same kind of person had you not
gone through all this adversitybecause your resilience level
would be different.
but you know, what's kind ofinteresting is that.
Carrying your background.
And I know that like the threeof us are friends and we all,
we've all had difficultchildhoods.
that's kind of what ties ustogether.
(40:50):
And I think it's, it's kindafunny because when I was abroad,
I kind of had the similarfeeling as well.
But I think not as not as thecontrast was not as dramatic as
yours, like going from theChristmas bureau to going to
Vietnam working for the top.
What is that?
You said the biggest global lawfirm in the world.
Steve Ngo (41:11):
Yeah.
So it is one of the top lawfirms in the
Angie Yu (41:13):
yeah, one of the top law firms in the entire world.
you're you have this like reallyglamorous ex-pat life in this
like rapidly developing nation.
Like it's amazing.
Like you're just there andsoaking it all in.
And when you're on your balcony,you're just like, who am I.
Whereas the little Steve who wasexcited to get a present from
(41:33):
the Christmas bureau.
And I think that contrast iswhat really pulls us back to,
you know, east of ed.
Right.
It sounds like to me, from likethe, the bird's eye view is
like, you went through this hugedramatic shift in your life from
being so poor and just trying toadjust to life in Canada to like
(41:54):
killing it in, in school andthen killing it in work.
And then just being like, oh,but have I stray too far from
home, which was both emotionaland physical.
And now seeing you back here,just like you sell it, it's like
a calling, right?
Because the community has servedyou in your hardest times, and
(42:19):
now that you've You know, nowthat you're in a place where you
can help other people to you,it's calling, it feels like this
is what you are here for is togive back to the community.
And I think that's absolutelybeautiful.
Like, I'm pretty sure there aretie commercials based on your
life.
Steve Ngo (42:36):
I'll cheer you up now.
Oh my God.
Kristy Yee (42:40):
Oh shit.
Now I lost my train of thought.
Angie Yu (42:43):
I, sorry.
Steve Ngo (42:43):
I I mean, I, I enjoy that.
That's so that's so powerfullysaid, I kind of said it better
myself, right?
You are absolutely right.
And it's, you know, I havegotten through struggled, like a
super poor kid, and you'veworked with, to just like the
most, apparently the mostglamorous thing you could do,
right.
Being top-notch law for him,like being a business lawyer
(43:04):
flying around.
And you realize that maybe thisis not it.
Maybe this is not the calling.
Right.
And coming back here, especiallywith this recent campaign Amman,
and I know we are not touchingon it too deeply, but you know,
having experienced a anti-Asianhate crime incident myself last
month, I can't help, but thinkthat everything has kind of led
(43:29):
me to this point, involvement inthe community with other
community groups, my publicspeaking skills, my learning
languages, my, my ability tounderstand the law, my ability
to like have politician,friends, understand the media.
I realized that all this thingwas coming to this one moment
(43:50):
that this is the moment to stepup.
Steven, your parents didn't comehere 30, 40 years ago, suffered
through this point for you tokeep perpetuating that harm.
This is your moment, like useyour language skills, use your
ability to speak, to shape,change, and reflecting on what
(44:12):
you're saying.
I think sometimes, you know, I'mnot a religious person at all,
but I think there is something.
I don't know, maybe it's aconfluence of factors and skills
that come to place, but theremight be some kind of fate
that's guiding what's happeningnow.
It's just too coincidental.
Kristy Yee (44:29):
Yep.
And we believe in serendipitousstuff.
And that what you had justdescribed sounds to me like a
serendipitous event, thateverything coming together, all
of your life experiences, allthe skills that you have built,
the people that you have met nowcoming to fruition for you to
(44:51):
advocate for your people, forthe community, so that we can
better ourselves as a societyand coming back to full circle.
I can see how all of thesethings bring you into it.
And I can see how, like, at thebeginning of this conversation,
(45:12):
I was like, oh my God, Steve,how do you do it?
Like, how do you do at all?
And I'm sure you get asked thisall the time and now I get it.
You do it because it's yourcalling because you are
passionate about it because youwant to give back because all,
all of the things that you havelearned in your life, all of
(45:33):
your experiences have broughtyou to every single one of these
moments.
And right now it is thiscampaign and we will link it all
in the show notes, but it wasalso the beyond the a, it was
also the living room series.
It was also all of those othercommunity
Angie Yu (45:52):
Your Toastmasters, your language.
Yeah.
All your Mandarin lessons themorning, the times when we was
zooming practice Mandarin, youknow, like, yeah.
Like, absolutely.
It's like all these littlethings that you did just came
into this one moment.
That is so well said, like I'mblown away.
Kristy Yee (46:10):
And I can see like all of these things, like, I,
I'm not tired for you anymore.
In fact, in fact, I'm likeenergize, I'm pumped.
I'm like, oh yeah, you do thisto you.
Like, this is, this is yourmoment.
You know, you fucking train forthis shit.
Okay.
Angie Yu (46:27):
Yeah, like I'm fired.
Like, no, we're, we're yourcheerleaders.
Steve Ngo (46:35):
Thank you.
And I take that like with mywhole heart and I, I hear it.
I absolutely soak it in.
Everyone has a certain thingthey do really well.
Right.
And so when you look at it fromthe outside, like, well, this is
definitely not me.
Like this would drain me.
Right.
And that's probably may havebeen the initial question.
Like this sounds too crazy forme, and I'm still trying to
(46:59):
figure it out.
I honestly, I'm still trying tofigure this out, but I know what
doesn't work.
Right?
What doesn't work and whatthat's, what probably is it a
balcony is chasing things thatare actually not.
what doesn't work for me.
Right?
I'm chasing these targets, thesesocial indicators really
pursuing the likes, like havingthese prestigious titles, but
(47:21):
that wasn't me.
Right?
So part of it is just being, forme in these last few years is
having that.
Self-awareness what gives meenergy.
Who are the people I liketalking to you too.
I love talking to them.
I was, this is on my calendar,like since last week, right.
I would highlight in green, upin yellow if I can, but there
are people that I don'tparticularly enjoy talking to.
(47:42):
I'll probably just cancel theinvite.
Right.
But I know that doing thissession would give me energy and
that's, that's the beauty of it.
Kristy Yee (47:51):
That's so awesome.
I love that.
I think this is a great.
Place for us to wrap up for theevening, as much as I want to
keep talking about this withyou, but we have so many good
nuggets.
one of which is the social mediafacade, right?
All of our labels that we have,those are all true to our
identity, but they are not theonly things in our identity.
(48:14):
In fact, it's all the thingsbehind the doors.
That's what truly makes us whowe are.
It's all the things that weexperience all of our low
points, because that's whatbuilds resiliency.
So I would encourage all of ourlisteners to reflect and think
about what are some moments inyour own life, where you have
built resiliency for either withyourself or with your friends or
(48:37):
with your.
Angie Yu (48:38):
And that's exactly the same as, you know what Steve is
going through right now, justfor our listeners.
A little bit more background.
Steve was unfortunately, at thereceiving end of a hate crime
last month.
And, you know, as everyone whoknows
Kristy Yee (48:52):
threw garbage while he was driving through his
window.
That's what happened.
Angie Yu (48:57):
And then which again, like I remember saying this, I'm
like, I Absolutely hate thatthis happened to you, but I'm
also kind of thankful that ithappened to you because like
they mess with the wrong person,you know, And like you show that
many a times.
And I think there were momentswhere I went is Steve.
(49:18):
Okay.
Like he he's, he's going throughso much
Steve Ngo (49:21):
so much like
Angie Yu (49:22):
media attention, like all of this stuff.
It must be so overwhelming, butthen hearing your backstory and
how everything just really ledto this moment.
Okay.
No, he's not overwhelmed becausethis is who he is and this is
what he was meant to do.
And see, again, it was like thefacade of like media attention,
(49:43):
but no, it's Not that Steve gotlucky and was, you know,
interviewed by all of these newsoutlets.
It's because that he had yearsand years of work not to work
towards this moment, but it justhappened in his assets and his
skills made him the perfectperson for this opportunity.
Kristy Yee (50:02):
Well said, Angie, and I think that last point that
you had just mentioned made merealize one last takeaway for us
is that we both kind ofprojected our own shit thinking
about Steve.
We're like, oh my gosh, how doeshe do this?
Like, is this even real?
How is, how is he not tired?
But that all came from like myown experience and how I would
(50:23):
feel if something like thathappened to me and how Angie
would feel as well.
But in reality, you know,that's, that's really not Steve
at all, but, but the lessonlearned today in just our
recording is that, oh shit.
I just predict it.
Pre protected, projected some ofmy own bullshit, you know, onto
Steve.
And then I, and then Iquestioned the authenticity
(50:46):
authenticity of it because I wasusing my own experiences own.
I was putting it onto anotherperson and we do that so often,
but we often don't catchourselves doing.
Angie Yu (51:00):
That's right.
That's right.
So we are sorry for hurlingshit.
I, you let's just grab a dustpan and go, let me just dust
that right off of you.
Steve Ngo (51:11):
I didn't even notice it.
It was just energizing to chatwith the both of you.
So not even don't even.
Yeah,
Kristy Yee (51:17):
Steve, it was so awesome to have you on the show.
How are you feeling right.
Steve Ngo (51:24):
grateful.
I really am.
there's a lot of noise out therein the world.
Right?
A lot of noise of anger, hatebad things.
Like, and it's easy to defaultto spreading that because it
spreads right.
What bleeds leads.
But I am feeling grateful,grateful for this moment to chat
(51:46):
with the both of you gratefulfor the ability to.
Use my, guess, public speakingskills to really push, you know,
making the world better and kindof place.
I'm just grateful for these darkmoments because they have taught
me many lessons and I, Iabsolutely agree.
(52:08):
I wouldn't be who I am nowwithout those moments.
And that's the honest truth.
It's a grateful yeah.
Kristy Yee (52:18):
Thank you, Steve.
Thanks for joining us today andsharing all your stories and
being vulnerable with us.
And I know there were momentswhen you were about to cry and I
just love it.
Angie Yu (52:32):
Yes.
I am an advocate.
I'm an advocate for people whocry.
Kristy Yee (52:37):
Like if we can get people to cry on our show, then
we have succeeded.
Angie Yu (52:42):
Hashtag blessed.
Kristy Yee (53:15):
We know that all the skeletons in our closet.
Angie Yu (53:18):
It's nice to see yours too.
Steve Ngo (53:20):
So Scott, it's just who we are right in sandwiches.
This is, it's just a closet, nota skeleton.
It's just stuff,
Kristy Yee (53:26):
right.
It's all the stuff.
Angie Yu (53:28):
You can either shove everything in the closet and
forget about it or you canreorganize it.
Steve Ngo (53:34):
Yeah.
Dude.
That's the wisdom bomb rightthere.
Boom.
Oh, that's a wisdom bomb.
That's such a great line.
I
Kristy Yee (53:42):
is why we keep the recording on
Steve Ngo (53:45):
Good line.
You could just shove up.
Angie Yu (53:47):
Steve, you love, you love all my like lines, but
honestly I just, try to makethem as cheesy as possible.
You're the only person who'slike, oh, that was so good.
Steve Ngo (53:58):
I think that's good.
Cause I'm going to copy it,right?
Like I want to use the samething.
Down the road.
Like you get shove all the shitin the closet.
Why don't you just reorganizeit?
Dang.
Does he
Kristy Yee (54:10):
some Marie Kondo shit there, you know?
Angie Yu (54:12):
yeah.
Steve Ngo (54:13):
kind of shit?
I kinda adjust anything.
So
Angie Yu (00:01):
So now Christie, you're too low.
Kristy Yee (00:03):
Okay.
How about now?
Steve Ngo (00:04):
That's better.
Kristy Yee (00:05):
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,
Angie Yu (00:07):
So
Steve Ngo (00:07):
it in post.
That's the
Angie Yu (00:09):
fixing them
Kristy Yee (00:09):
That's you know what?
Fuck it.
Just post, post everythingeverything's in post.
Okay.
Steve Ngo (00:39):
I'm excited for this.
I appreciate this.
And you guys are the best.
You'd see the best
Kristy Yee (00:47):
okay.
are we good to go?
Alrighty then welcome back toanother episode of shit.
We don't tell mom where we getcomfortable with the
uncomfortable.
And today we're going to betalking with Steve.
No, who is our dear friend.
And he, okay.
This is going to take a while.
And if you could hear clickingsounds because I have this whole
(01:09):
spiel for Steve, because he'slike this whole other human that
I sometimes don't know if he'sreally a human, because, okay,
so here we go, Steve.
He is a self-proclaimed socialentrepreneur.
So what does that mean?
That means he is a founder slashco founder to a crap ton of
non-profit organization.
(01:29):
of which include beyond the a,which helps to de-stigmatize
anxiety in the legal professionand empower lawyers in their
careers.
There's the living room series,which has been mentioned on the
podcast a couple of timesalready, probably more than a
couple.
but the living room series, whatis it?
It is basically we hang out andwe talk about whole bunch of
(01:53):
just stuff that you don't reallytalk about.
We have meaningful conversationwith diverse groups of people.
Basically Steve brings in allthese people from around the
community, people, strangers,basically.
And then we come together and wetalk about deep stuff.
And most recently Steve has leda campaign on anti-Asian hate
crime reporting.
(02:15):
found out that there is a hugesystemic barrier to reporting
and Thai, Asian hate crimes inthe Vancouver community.
And now he's all over the place.
He's all over the news.
He is also a lawyer.
He's a musician.
He is a husband and he is ourgood friend.
Welcome Steve to the show.
Steve Ngo (02:34):
You did awesome.
I love it.
I'm glad to be here.
Thank you so much.
What an intro?
You should do my intro for everysingle talk
Kristy Yee (02:40):
Oh, I'd love to, I have this like secret secret
fantasy that I want to do voiceovers one day.
You know, I just want to dovoice stuff all the time.
Oh,
Angie Yu (02:51):
that.
Kristy Yee (02:52):
Steve's also a TEDx speaker by the way, because you
know, he just doesn't do enough.
And so in his spare time, helikes to give speeches.
Steve, that was a lot of stuff.
I, I am truly honored to befriends with you because I get
to see all the cool things thatyou do.
And it really motivates me as ahuman being to do more things.
(03:16):
But I always wonder, do you everget tired?
Steve Ngo (03:23):
Do I ever get tired?
Yeah.
I lost a lot yesterday.
Like fell asleep on my seat,just here, like at like 1130.
I was like, like this, I calledit meditating.
Maybe I think I was sleeping.
Kristy Yee (03:35):
Sometimes when I meditate, I end up falling
asleep.
Why I ask this is because I feellike, okay, on social media,
this is that's where I mostlysee your work.
And on social media, you'realways doing something.
And then you take it to a wholeother level.
you were a victim of some hatecrimes recently.
(03:58):
I think if that happened to me,I would have ranted about it on
social media.
And then I would, you know, getsome comments and feedback from
friends and say like, oh yeah,that really sucks.
And blah, blah, blah.
Right.
But you took it to a wholefucking other level.
You like got the media involved.
It's now on the globe and mail,like, it has blown up in a way
that is, should be blown up.
And he's on the cover of theVancouver sun.
(04:20):
that's Steve compared to regularfolks like me, but I always
wonder behind the scenes, whatis that like?
Steve Ngo (04:30):
Yeah, let's dive into it.
I'm happy.
I'm happy to peel the layer backand go deep though.
Happy to jump in and whereveryou want to start.
Kristy Yee (04:38):
Why don't you tell us a bit about how beyond the AA
got started?
Because I know offline, you hadmentioned some anxiety in the
past, there's been some lowpoints, and this is something
that I don't see on social mediafrom Steve's page, because I
just see all these campaignsthat you run.
(05:00):
I feel like I would be veryburnt out if I were involved in
so many things, but I also feellike maybe Steve does get really
tired and Steve might feel somelevels of anxiety at times as
well.
And seeing that you had startedbeyond the AE makes me wonder
(05:22):
there must have been somethingthat had happened for you to
feel like.
is important to talk about,especially in the legal
profession.
Steve Ngo (05:31):
Really there's, there's two things I want to
highlight in the middle of thefirst thing is whether it's
getting tired or not.
It gives us the realization.
If you're doing things that giveyou energy.
awesome.
Like, so speaking of the TV,give me energy is this is like
the highlight of mine, likenight.
I had that my day actually.
So it's really about that.
but the second one on, beyondthe AI.
(05:52):
So for myself, I, I, when I wasan undergrad, I thought about
being a doctor, like a typicalAsian kid and that wasn't for
me.
So I decided to be a lawyer.
Why not?
so I went to law school.
I worked at one of the, probablyone of the most so-called
prestigious law firms in Canada.
and I was feeling miserable andI thought maybe I need to chase
something bigger.
So I landed a job at one time.
(06:13):
Prestigious law firms in theworld, thinking that that would
be my solution to happiness.
And when you're chasing thesevisuals, these dreams of what
you think is happiness.
That's whenever they crushed meinside.
So about maybe a couple monthsinto my time working in Asia, I
had this ex-pat lifestyle and Iwas living this big life.
I had VIP access to parties,waterfront and apartments.
(06:37):
like I private driver, butreally I was dying inside and
there was this one moment.
I remember I was actuallystanding on the ledge of my
balcony, seriously thinkingabout whether I wanted to keep
living or not.
And that's when I realized that.
Man things have really changedand no one really talks about
(06:59):
anxiety in the profession.
No one talks about depressionwhen legal profession, it's all
about this glamour, this nicesuits, lifestyle, your jet
setting, you have like free flowalcohol and food, but really
that's just a shell when insidework on the insides and talk
about things like that.
There's nothing.
And so I was crumbling insideand I was so fortunate to have
(07:23):
really good friends that I couldturn to because I say, I talked
to my best friends, like this iswhat's happening right now.
And it gave me a big wake upcall and it just so happened
that week.
I had a buddy fly in fromVancouver and I shared with
them, I'm going through.
And he said, Stephen, I'm goingthrough the same thing as well.
Kristy Yee (07:41):
Yeah.
Steve Ngo (07:42):
And it just opened up my mind.
There must be other lawyers whoare keeping this inside.
And so that's what beyond theA's about it.
Censored beyond A's beyondachievement, beyond anxiety.
Because anxiety is sostigmatized and legal profession
and the whole purpose andmission is to de-stigmatize
anxiety and to empower lawyersto thrive in their lives and
career.
Kristy Yee (08:03):
take us back to that night when you were on the
balcony and you felt like youhad the whole world, because you
have all this glitz, you haveall the glamour that suits stuff
that we're familiar with, butyou also felt so empty.
Those are two opposing feelings.
(08:24):
Can you share a little bit moreabout what are some of your
thoughts and emotions in thatmoment when you were on the
belt?
Steve Ngo (08:31):
Yeah.
So I think it was a slow, it wasa slow burn, right?
It was a slow buildup to thatmoment.
It wasn't like suddenly that,boom, this is what's happening,
but it was a slow buildup.
And so just to, to backtrack alittle bit.
I was living in Vietnam and, youknow, I started chasing these
external validations to makemyself feel better.
And I felt like I was chasingthe, really the wrong goals that
(08:53):
week.
And that night when it happened,I was on a couple of massive
deals.
And because you're working on somany things at the same time, I
was barely sleeping.
I was like collapsing on mytable, like going from two to
six in the morning, likesleeping four hours.
And I made a mistake that day atwork.
absolutely my fault becausethere's so many things going on.
I wasn't in the right mind spaceand I suddenly questioned like,
(09:14):
am I good enough to be a lawyer?
Do I deserve to be here?
And it really crushed my soul.
And then you start to,everything starts to unraveling
at that point, you know, I'msomeone who does carry a very
positive demeanor.
I had this happy-go-luckyattitude and it made me, it gave
me this really shock in mysystem that this affects
(09:34):
anybody, anybody, absolutely.
Anybody.
You could have this rockstarapparently from the surface.
It just shows that there is, youknow, there's a facade and
that's kind of what I want toopen up about it is that there
is a facade in the way thingscome across and it's okay to
talk about it.
Angie Yu (09:52):
I have goosebumps.
It felt like your emotions werekind of coming up again, because
I really felt the emotionsthrough the screen.
You were like, you know,everything is just a facade.
Like every, everyone has stuffgoing on behind them.
Yeah.
That's exactly what beyond EI istrying to emphasize.
That's exactly what our podcastis trying to emphasize.
And yet it happens in whetheryou're, you're trying to look
(10:13):
like the Wolf of wall street, orif you're trying to look like
the perfect Asian son or, youknow, we all, we all have this
stuff.
That's stuff, the shit justbubbling inside.
Yeah.
Kristy Yee (10:28):
I think social media.
we don't have to be the ones tosay how stressful it can be, but
also how great it can be.
Right.
And there's this, there's afacade that we do put on and
sometimes it's a consciousthing.
I, you know, you, you're gonnatake a bunch of nice pictures
(10:48):
and post it on, on Facebook.
Like there's a very intentionalthing.
Sometimes I think, you know, wedo it subconsciously because we
want the validation.
And so we only choose to put in.
Genuine parts of ourselves, butselective lead, genuine parts of
(11:10):
ourselves.
So, Steve, you mentioned like,you know, your, you present
yourself as a happy-go-luckyperson.
I think you truly are ahappy-go-lucky person because I
feel your happiness and yourenthusiasm exuding out of your
body.
Like some aura surrounding you,you know, like there's this glow
and that's real, you know, likeyour smile that's, that's real.
(11:33):
But I think what's important isthat that's not the only Steve.
Angie Yu (11:38):
that's Right.
Yep.
Kristy Yee (11:39):
And I think for any of our listeners out there, you
know, when we're scrollingthrough our social media and we
see people's happyrelationships, people's like
wonderful jobs, big houses.
We know that, you know, we'rehappy for them and they probably
worked really hard for it.
But we don't, really see what'sbehind closed doors
Angie Yu (12:03):
You don't see the drudgery of everyday life in
other people's life, but youexperienced the drudgery in your
own life if you don't reallyinternalize the fact that
everything you see from otherpeople, not just social media or
just the way they are, it's notreally a facade.
It's, it's just a part of themthat everybody else sees.
And I think that's the, that'sthe one thing that I think our
(12:24):
generation is learning as we'regetting older, is that, Hey,
there's this other side of me,or like, it's difficult to be on
all the time.
It's still real.
It's that's still their house.
That's still their baby.
That's still their wedding, butthat's only a small portion of
their entire life because theirvalue is beyond a big house or a
(12:45):
baby or a wedding.
Kristy Yee (12:46):
And also like that snapshot, that happy moment,
snapshot is just that snapshot.
Like, it's that one happy momentin their life, but there's 24
hours in a day.
Like they don't look like thatall the time.
Angie Yu (13:02):
Yeah, everyone only has 24 hours a day.
Despite what Steve might haveyou think about his his hour.
Steve Ngo (13:11):
you both said it's so well.
Right.
And it's, and really leading tothat point.
And I love the work that you'redoing with this podcast.
You are creating space and youare too honestly super endearing
friends of mine at that timewhen I was in that moment,
everyone's life seemed soperfect.
And I thought that it was justhere's the thing.
I thought that it was just me.
(13:32):
Maybe I was the weird one.
Maybe I was the one who, who,who, who has this?
I'm supposed to be happy.
Right?
I have this crazy lifestyle Icould jets at anywhere.
I don't mean to break here.
Right?
I could jets air.
I want maybe it's just me.
Why am I feeling this way?
And that's what caused thatdoubt.
It starts to spiral because atthat time, three, four years
(13:54):
ago, I don't even remember threeyears ago, three years ago,
stuff like this wasn't eventaught develop in the legal
profession.
Not just anybody, especiallylegal profession.
It blew my mind because lastmonth beyond a we hosted a talk
with the law society of BC.
That's actually been my goalsince I started being on a is to
(14:15):
actually address the law
Angie Yu (14:16):
Wow.
Steve Ngo (14:17):
And I talked to Lausanne at BC law society of
Ontario.
They would never have this kindof talk.
And I invited judges invitedsome really top notch lawyers to
share their experience.
And the one story that someoneshared was their wife was
pregnant and they actuallybrought their laptops at a
hospital in betweencontractions.
He was doing work and writing.
(14:39):
How messed up is that?
Angie Yu (14:42):
Wow.
Steve Ngo (14:43):
even a couple of years ago.
No one talked about it andthat's what I want to do because
I know for a fact don't get mewrong.
It's still a dark times, but Ithought it was just me at that
time.
And I think if I had that avenueheard that talk, I would have
been a catch myself a littleearlier.
Kristy Yee (15:05):
are you managing your anxiety right now, Steve?
Steve Ngo (15:09):
It's it's.
So since that moment it's beendefinitely a journey to really
understand myself.
And I started to really read,not just books on business and
how to communicate, but books onyourself, books on understanding
who I am.
And at that time living roomstairs was still going on.
And that was so helpful.
Right.
but a lot of it is journalingunderstanding what gives me
(15:31):
energy, talking to the YouTubegives me energy.
I'm not tired at all.
Actually I could do this likeall day, but there's stuff that
does drain you.
And how do you counterbalancethat?
Right.
Just being hyper aware.
Also another thing that I'mdoing, I'm very cognizant of it.
It's just surrounding myselfwith people, the right people,
and just seeing who gives youenergy, who dreams.
(15:52):
I think it's a conscious,conscious thing that I'm doing
in it.
You both are experts at this, soI don't need to be preaching to
the choir here, but that's
Angie Yu (16:00):
Whoa.
Whoa, whoa, whoa,
Kristy Yee (16:01):
not experts display everybody.
Just.
Angie Yu (16:04):
whoa.
Our motto is, is that, Hey,we're not experts here.
Like this is literally like oneof our souls.
We're not experts, but we'regoing to talk about it anyway.
Steve Ngo (16:13):
I must say, not experts, but I must say that,
you know, even Angie, like Ithink last year, I think I was
going through some shit I'd worktoo.
And you're the one of the firstpeople I called and that's,
cause I know that you give thespace to listen.
So what do you mean extra?
Like maybe x-rayed in my mind asfriends that I know I can turn
to.
And there's friends that I'vestarted to distance away from.
(16:34):
I don't mean to name names, butI don't really see them anymore
because I know that we're justtalking about drinking and beers
and I used to be that guy too.
Don't get me wrong.
I still am parts of it stillthat that's still part of you.
Okay.
There's still that party side ofme don't get me wrong.
Right.
I'm not faking any of this, butit's just whether you can have
that kind of conversation,right.
Angie Yu (16:51):
I'm, I'm glad I was able to be there to hear you
out.
I didn't even think of it aslike anything special, cause I
know that you would do the samefor me
Kristy Yee (17:00):
but that's the thing, right?
Like when, when we are being afriend to another friend, we are
happily there to be an ear to bea shoulder because we love that
other person, but we neverreally think about how impactful
it is for the person receivingit on the other end.
We're just doing it because welove them.
Right.
It's like no big deal.
(17:21):
Right.
If any one of you call me, I'mlike, yeah, let's, let's talk.
And, and if I call any one ofyou, because I feel really shit,
it is so much more meaningful onmy end.
I mean, I'm sure it's great onyour end too, but it, you know,
just like how Steve you're, youwere mentioning, like when you
were back in Vietnam, you werelucky to have a great friend
(17:44):
around at that time.
It's almost like serendipity.
That your friend from Vancouvercame all the way to the other
side of the world where you feltsuper isolated on your own, even
though you're surrounded byglitz and glamour, but they were
there for you and you were ableto talk it through.
And how impactful was thatconversation to hear that your
(18:05):
friend was also going throughthe same thing?
Steve Ngo (18:07):
Words, can you even describe how impactful it is?
Right.
When you're in the thick ofthings, it's so easy to it's.
So it's always so easy to say,oh, just do that, do that.
But when you're in the midst ofit, you're in a spiral and we
all go through spirals and itjust, that's just part of life
too.
Right.
And if anything, that COVID hastaught all of us, whether I'm
(18:30):
grateful for or not, is thatmental health is real anxiety
and depression is real and itaffects each and every single
one of us.
And that's also the beauty.
I honestly think that thisgeneration, I don't need to be
like those old guys, hisgeneration.
Right.
But this period of time, there'sa lot of self-awareness, which
(18:51):
is way more than what it was inthe past when, in our parents'
path and our mom or dad.
Gosh, if we don't tell her mom,right, they keep it a silent.
It's like, it's like a shell.
There's a stone in front ofthem.
They're just the heart.
Angie Yu (19:03):
Yeah.
That's right.
And you know, what's funny whenyou said, like you came back
from Vietnam, you felt this likeurge to just really find out
more about yourself.
So you were, you've been readingall of these books of like
self-help books.
And I read a lot of self-helpbooks, but I hate calling
themselves.
Because it shouldn't be likeyou're helping yourself.
We should just be part of yourlife.
I guess it is like, like theyshould be rebranded to like self
(19:26):
care or even just life,
Kristy Yee (19:30):
life books.
Angie Yu (19:30):
life
Kristy Yee (19:31):
I read life
Angie Yu (19:32):
yeah, I read a book because it makes us sound like
it makes us sound like you havea problem,
Kristy Yee (19:39):
Ah.
Okay.
Angie Yu (19:40):
but I don't like that because it shouldn't have to be
late as a problem for you to belike, you know what?
I want to learn how to be abetter listener.
I want to learn how to connectwith myself better or connect
with other people better.
Or I want to know how tojournal.
I want to know, know how to likeconnect with the side of me.
Why does it have to be a problembefore we can do it?
(20:01):
Like you go to the bookstore andI say this because I just went
to the bookstore earlier thisweek.
So this is all in my head.
You go to the bookstore, right?
You see sections like lifestyle.
Okay.
You walk over to lifestyle.
What do they tell how you had todo, how do you cook?
How do you garden?
How do you, I don't know,fashion, stuff like that.
and yeah.
Okay.
That's lifestyle.
(20:22):
But then you go over to theself-help book and there's this
like ominous tone, Like,lifestyle.
It's like, oh, glitzy, glamor.
Like, oh my God, let's cook allthese fantastic things.
Look at all my plants.
And then you walk over to theself-help section as just like
gray.
It's like welcome.
(20:43):
Come to the nihilistic corner ofchapters in the go.
Kristy Yee (20:47):
Like, oh, your life sucks.
Here's the place to be
Angie Yu (20:51):
Oh, you've hit rock bottom.
Let us introduce you to our topfive recommendations.
Like what.
Steve Ngo (20:57):
Okay.
Angie Yu (20:59):
Like we determined, normalized self-help stuff more
because it's not self-help, it'sjust, Yeah.
It's life.
Steve Ngo (21:06):
Yeah.
I like to call it personalgrowth and personal development.
Actually, if you don't readthose books, you're actually at
a disadvantage.
That's how I see it.
Angie Yu (21:13):
That's very lawyerly.
Just kidding.
Kristy Yee (21:17):
with Steve on this one.
Angie Yu (21:19):
I agree.
As well, especially when I hearabout what the younger
generations are up to, I feellike, you know, maybe for our
parents generation, we're moreahead of them in terms of, I
don't know, technology, etcetera.
We're understanding theinternet.
And I feel the younger kids,they grew up like learning about
(21:39):
emotional intelligence, liketruly learning about emotional
intelligence and how to applyit.
Not just like, oh, this is whatemotional intelligence is.
So we're falling behind.
If we don't do the workourselves and then we won't be
able to connect with it.
Kristy Yee (21:53):
I'm going to bring it back to this whole social
media facade thing.
You, you do all these things.
You like create all theseorganizations and now.
And you're like, oh, I just passout on the couch.
I just pass out on the table.
I have all these things
Angie Yu (22:09):
I can sleep with my eyes open while writing
contracts.
Kristy Yee (22:15):
Something else that I see a lot on your social media
is you and your wife have thisfabulous relationship, but you
guys go on these like randommini vacations and go to
vineyards.
And like, you guys look like,like the couple, you know, and
I've met your wife a few times.
She's the lovely person I'm sureon the back end.
(22:39):
There's more than what meets theeye.
Tell us, tell us more about whatyour relationship is like with,
with your wife?
Steve Ngo (22:50):
This is so funny because the moment he said that
she came home, I could hear herhumming in the background.
It was so timely.
Kristy Yee (23:01):
No, I sensed her.
Steve Ngo (23:03):
Yeah.
I'm happy to, to, to kind oflike set the context and set the
tone here to, to give somecontext.
I met my wife actually atStarbucks.
I had picked her up at aStarbucks.
I, she was sitting across fromme and I just, you know, got her
number, you know, somethingthat's not as smooth, but it
worked out and I'm one for one,one for random pickups.
Like this is,
Angie Yu (23:23):
Yeah, you were, you've reached your peak.
You can't go back now.
Steve Ngo (23:26):
yeah, it does.
It feels like at the earlystages of Tinder and whatever it
is.
So thank God I miss that.
yeah, it's it was, it was sointeresting because all my past
relationships, I was alwayswaiting for the shoe to drop I'm
like, it must have, she must becrazy.
Right.
She must be something like,maybe she has like a secret
boyfriend or something, but likenothing ever happened.
so, but it wasn't until like,wasn't until a couple of years
(23:47):
in you know, one of the things Ilove about Michelle is that
she's such a explicitcommunicator.
Nothing's like off limits andshe's very upfront and very
clear.
but we, we, we do have ups anddowns for sure.
And it actually takes, took areally and dark moment for us to
really learn from that andreally figure it out.
And there was a point when wehad actually almost we were
(24:09):
engaged I was in Vietnam and wehad actually almost canceled our
wedding.
And this is something that bothof us are actually, we, we, we
actually really liked talkingabout this to friends because I
think it's important to kind ofopen up the Pandora's box two
per se.
Kristy Yee (24:28):
How did it come to you guys almost counseling your
wedding?
Like what was behind the scenes?
Steve Ngo (24:35):
Yeah.
And I wanted to pause thereearlier and and when I go deeper
into it so set the context megoing to be at home is actually,
it really was my choice.
Like it really me driving thedecision.
And at first she was like, Hey,you go first for the first
couple of months, you go explorea little bit and then I'm going
to come join you.
but a couple of months, yeah.
She had to change a mind.
You're like, you know, I don'tthink I want to come here
anymore.
(24:56):
And at first I felt betrayedbecause like, oh, we made this
promise.
You'll come here with me and nowyou're not coming.
I felt like, you know, you, youwithdrew your word.
And for her, she realized thatthis wasn't, this was really,
really me pushing my agendaalong.
And it, and it got to the pointwhere we and our wedding was
coming up in a couple of months.
Right.
(25:17):
And for some reason, my gut wassaying, you know, we got to
bring in a third person, we'vegot to bring him to like a, like
a, a third party to kind of hearus out a little bit.
and I'm really fortunate.
I did, I do want to give a shoutout to Daniel and dyno is a a
mentor of mine.
And he, the three of us got inthe chat with Daniel, it's it
(25:38):
kind of used to be a marriagecounselor.
And we talked about, and wasn'teven married.
Right.
So we talked about what we wereboth looking for and.
It's so funny, we, he made usdecide realize that we were both
looking for the same things meand Michelle were looking for.
Our long-term goal was to beback in Vancouver and start a
family.
Right?
Whether we get there is adifferent story, how do we get
(26:00):
those different stories?
And he just opened up this newthinking meeting in two of us,
they say that you, it is in yourdarkest moments in deepest
moments is when you learn themost about each other.
And I'm so I don't know iffortunate is the right word of
saying, but I'm kind of gladthat's also not the right word,
but you know what I mean?
(26:20):
That we kind of went throughthat because now we kind of
figure out how we work.
So since that moment we, yeah,we have a system going on.
Anytime we get into like anykind of fight, I suppose we have
a system where we try to assesswho has a stronger opinion here.
And if they have a strongopinion, they usually get their
way.
And that's how we decide thingseven planning the wedding was
that.
(26:40):
Really smooth.
Surprisingly, since that moment,cause wedding planning is a
whole new level.
Right.
But it was really like, we justlisted out those 10, 20 things
like, Hey, who has a strongopinion?
You make the call who has astronger opinion, make the call.
And that's the system we haveanytime we'd get into this kind
of like tussle and that's been
Kristy Yee (26:57):
like if, if Michelle cared more about flowers than
Michelle makes the call kind ofa thing, or like, if, if Steve
cares more about what's on themenu, then you're going to make
the call.
Steve Ngo (27:08):
absolutely.
That's exactly it.
And this happened actually acouple months ago.
so my wife and I are expectingwe're expecting our baby
daughter
Angie Yu (27:23):
Okay.
Steve Ngo (27:23):
on podcast
Kristy Yee (27:27):
Yo, congrats,
Steve Ngo (27:28):
live and outset.
Kristy Yee (27:29):
Oh my God.
You're going to be a father.
Angie Yu (27:31):
haven't announced it yet,
Steve Ngo (27:33):
I, I haven't.
I mean, cause right now I'm likeon my social media, all about
this like campaign thing.
Right.
So Michelle just post Michelle'sposted it up on her Facebook and
stuff.
I've done like Instagram, justlike privately just to like,
whatever.
Right.
I haven't, we only did the bigannouncement yesterday.
Angie Yu (27:50):
Wow.
Oh my God.
Christie.
Are you okay?
Kristy Yee (27:57):
I'm just thinking, I'm like, I'm going to tell my
mom.
Angie Yu (28:01):
Oh Yeah.
because you guys have mutual
Kristy Yee (28:03):
I know Steve's mom and my mom are friends.
We don't tell them a lot ofshit.
Steve Ngo (28:11):
Just to like close the loop on the story, we were
just debating about like babynames eight in the middle name.
And like, I was like, I don'thave a strong opinion on the
middle name.
So like eco for it, stuff likethat.
Like that's how we, that's howwe make does it.
Kristy Yee (28:24):
I love that because a lot of times I find.
Especially when I talk withfriends and they like bitch
about their spouses or partners,it's always, there's always a
little bit of a tip-toe wheneverthere comes to be at
decision-making, like you don't,you may have an opinion, but
you're afraid to voice that you,you have this strong opinion.
(28:47):
So you allow your partner to belike, oh, what do you think when
you have already made your owndecisions?
And then you are upset when,when your partner doesn't come
to the same conclusion as youdo, when, when you could have
just been like, Hey, I actuallyreally care about the middle
name.
And so let's just avoid all ofthat other bullshit
conversation.
We don't even need to have allof that other stuff.
Angie Yu (29:09):
That's right.
Yeah.
And I and you know what, that'sanother thing that we can bring
back a little bit, bring back tolike the Asian culture is that
the Asian culture is soimplicit.
Everything's about context,context, that nobody really
wants to put their foot down andbe like, I want this because
it's considered like not politeor something like that.
If you go, Hey, we're going todo this.
So I feel like for, you know,our generation being the kids of
(29:32):
immigrant parents, like a lot ofit is like, we're trying to
learn how to do that with ourfriends, with our partners.
and then eventually with ourparents, it's almost like a
reverse,
Kristy Yee (29:43):
And it's not like we're, we're, you know, being a
dictator, I couldn't think of abetter way to, I'm gonna make
all these decisions.
It's it's like we're opening upthe conversation, you know, when
it comes to, Hey, baby, middlename, like, do you, how much do
you care about it?
Angie Yu (30:00):
Yeah,
Kristy Yee (30:00):
We're inviting the other person and then respecting
what their thoughts are, andthen weighing that, you know,
prioritize, weighing how much itmatters to the other.
And I think starting aconversation like that is, is a
really good tip.
What happens when you both careabout something equally?
Steve Ngo (30:22):
Yeah.
Usually if we do, we give it acouple of days and whoever still
has the strong opinion, likethey'll carry the day.
So like, yeah, maybe at thebeginning we might both might
care about it, but honestly, 90%of the time someone will have a
stronger opinion and some willhave a weaker opinion.
And when you know that, Hey,they actually have a strong
(30:42):
opinion about this.
Most of the times, like, yeah,by all means, go ahead.
It's really just aboutlistening.
And you know, every relationshipis different, right?
Like, you know, it's, I've beenreally bad.
I want to talk about reallybuild on Angie's point earlier.
So much of what we do aboutrelationships and what we think
is the right thing to do is fromour parents.
And they had no idea whatthey're doing.
(31:03):
There's all this past trauma forthem that borrowed from their
parents.
It's just carried through andcarried down.
Angie Yu (31:08):
goes all the way back to Gang cause con you know,
like,
Steve Ngo (31:11):
Gang is calm.
Gosh, right?
Yeah, because you learn to lovefrom, by seeing how your parents
were alive, but it's, itdefinitely does carry down.
And so the system that seeingwho has a strong opinion has
actually worked really well.
And if at first we both mighthave the same strong opinion,
but after a couple of days, likesomeone's going to have a
(31:31):
stronger opinion will have aless strong opinion.
Angie Yu (31:34):
yeah,
Steve Ngo (31:34):
It's not about winning at this point, right?
It's you're not, you're notkeeping score.
Angie Yu (31:37):
Yeah.
Earlier at the, oh, I, while nota while back earlier, you
mentioned like in your, first ofall, I'm so happy for You and
Michelle, like congratulationsagain.
Oh, you're expected.
Ah that's super exciting news.
And we're the first podcast toannounce it.
Ladies and
Kristy Yee (31:53):
You hurt your
Angie Yu (31:54):
you heard it here first you mentioned that in your
(32:31):
previous relationships, you werealways waiting for the shoe to
drop.
He loved like, what do you meanby that?
Steve Ngo (32:40):
Yeah.
I, I sometimes don't understandmyself too, like I'm optimistic,
but also a skeptic it's strange,right?
Angie Yu (32:52):
optimist.
Steve Ngo (32:52):
Yeah.
Like in, in the legalprofession, skeptics actually do
really well.
And that's, my lawyers are goodbecause we actually don't really
believe what people say.
We actually like to dive in anddig in deep.
And so that's a good or badtrait.
It could be terrible for mentalhealth.
but when I talk about shoot adrop, it is just looking at past
(33:13):
relationships.
I've always been thinking like,you know, is this really it?
Like I'm waiting.
Is there something bad going tohappen?
Is that weird sense of like, youknow, anticipating bad things to
happen?
I don't know.
I think, I think part of it isprobably drawn from super,
super, like personal here atthis point Marisol school, right
in I remember in like elementaryschool, like I was a chubby kid.
(33:35):
Right.
And so for me to like, when anygirl who liked me, like, I was
so excited, I just like jumpedright into it.
Right.
And like, you know, it justended up in really bad
relationships, especially inhigh school university.
I would just, you know, I wouldsometimes date someone, maybe, I
didn't know, like them as much.
(33:56):
And I feel absolutely terriblesaying this on air you know,
good or bad bait.
Every single one of themactually found like the better
half.
And they each gotten married.
It's actually all my four axes.
They all like made the guy afterme is, I don't know what that
means, but so maybe that's agood thing.
Kristy Yee (34:13):
Community
Angie Yu (34:14):
them straight community service.
Steve Ngo (34:17):
I, a lot in both, I made them realize what they
didn't want.
Right.
So part of, part of the shoedropping is that sometimes like
a year in, I like this is notthe right fit.
And that's what I mean next tothe shoe dropping.
And so when I first metMichelle, I'm like, here we go
again, like in a year from now,we're going to whatever.
Right.
And then show me this other guyand they're gonna get married.
(34:37):
Right.
I was like, oh, the pattern ishappening, but has not happened.
Won't happen.
Hopefully.
Just kidding.
Kristy Yee (34:45):
I mean, you guys are married and there's a kid coming
along.
So.
Angie Yu (34:49):
And I think from just what you told me, like how you
guys went through this prettybig dark ish moment in your
relationship, like you, like yousaid, like your, You don't want
to say, you're glad it happened,but I think.
like you're thankful for what itbrought you.
Like you're thankful for what itdid bring into the relationship.
(35:10):
because I think that wasprobably when you would expect
the shoe to drop kind of thing,but you guys got through that
with some mediation and withlearning about each other.
And because of that, that's whatmakes this relationship
different.
Because you are different, notanticipating for the shoe to
drop anymore because yourmindset is different.
(35:32):
That's what I think as anon-expert.
Steve Ngo (35:35):
no.
And it kind of leads me back towhen you were describing the
self-help book of, of grayness.
And there's a term that's tossedaround a lot and I'm, this is
going to be verycounter-culture, but I'm just
going to say it anyways.
Right?
There's a lot of talk aboutresilience and there's a school
of thought where resilience islike you just putting up a
front, you're just protectingthat, that castle, the
(35:56):
resilience is built fromactually going through some
harsh.
That's actually how resilienceis developed when you go through
hard shit.
That's when you developresilience.
So as shitty and crappy, as itfeels, looking back, obviously
always easy to look back, butthat's one of the resilience is
built up.
So building like Lincoln to thistopic, I'm actually glad
(36:18):
Michelle had that really toughmoment, right before we got
married.
Because, you know, if thishappened, like down the road, I
don't know.
Right.
And I, you know, I'm not anexpert either.
Right.
But I do think there's somethingimportant about resilience and
having going through tough timesI had a buddy who got married to
his wife and then they moved intogether, like after the wedding
(36:42):
and they never had any real,like, hard toxin, then, you
know, now they're separated, butgood or bad.
Maybe if they had that resilientmoment beforehand, you could
kind of figure things out.
So I'm not preaching.
I'm not telling you guys to allgo through big fights at all,
but I'm just trying to say thatresilience is developed from
tough situation.
Okay,
Kristy Yee (36:59):
Yeah,
Angie Yu (37:00):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Kristy Yee (37:03):
we're all going to go and like pick up the phone,
find our partners, right.
Start digging up some dirt.
That's not what we mean here,folks.
Steve Ngo (37:10):
sorry.
I take no liability on this,
Kristy Yee (37:15):
But I agree like this goes for whether you're
building resilience in arelationship like with your
partner or with friendships, oreven with relationship with
peers.
Because when, when you are ableto pick yourself back up, when
you have gone through lowmoments, dark moments, places of
(37:39):
anxiety, places of depression,and then you come out of that,
then that also makes you moreresilient.
Steve Ngo (37:48):
Yeah.
I, I absolutely resonate withthat.
Right.
and I'm just thinking ahead,right.
You know, how do you teach kidsresilience?
Right.
And how do you teach yourdaughter resilience?
Like, do you just make themhomeless on the street to make
them realize like, this is like,like, I don't know.
Right.
Like I actually, I grew upreally poor.
Like I remember food donations.
(38:10):
I remember like wearing likeyous clothes.
I remember going to theChristmas bureau every year and
picking out the toy.
Actually, I realize what washappening until like many years
later, because there was one daya year.
My dad would drive me to thisplace and he'd be like, pick any
toy you want.
I'm like any toy.
This is like toys R us, butfree.
And it was such a powerfulmoment for me when I was young
(38:32):
that I could do this.
And so I don't know.
Right.
It there's a lot of openquestions.
Right.
It's about Brazilians, but ithas shaped my life and made me
really appreciate the power ofcommunity, the power of service
and the power of giving back,because it helped me with my
life and I want to keep itgoing.
And that's my intent here.
That's why I'm doing thesedifferent projects.
Cause it's it's I don't know.
(38:53):
This sounds so cheesy, but partof it is I just feel like a
moral obligation or even just acalling obligation.
It's too hard.
Like it's, it's actually a bitof a calling actually.
Angie Yu (39:03):
Okay.
Kristy Yee (39:04):
That's so beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
That's people see us in labels.
Like I, I listed some labelswhen I introduced you.
I'm like Steve is a lawyer.
He's a musician, he's a socialentrepreneur.
He's a husband behind everysingle label.
There is so much more to thatperson.
(39:30):
And I think a lot of times weonly pick one of those labels.
Like I just listed like four orfive things about UCF, but a lot
of times we present ourselveswith just one of these labels,
like lawyer, and then we willall have this preconceived
notion of what that means,because we all know we close our
(39:51):
eyes and we ha we imagine alawyer.
And then you have all thesestereotypes that come with it.
And I don't think many folkswould think about a struggling
kid with two immigrant parentsin Canada who visited the
Christmas bureau every year, whomoved to the other side of the
(40:13):
world and ended up on a balconyone night and question their
life purpose.
We don't think about any ofthese moments, but it's all of
these moments that actually makeyou who you are.
Angie Yu (40:30):
you would not be the same kind of person had you not
gone through all this adversitybecause your resilience level
would be different.
but you know, what's kind ofinteresting is that.
Carrying your background.
And I know that like the threeof us are friends and we all,
we've all had difficultchildhoods.
that's kind of what ties ustogether.
(40:50):
And I think it's, it's kindafunny because when I was abroad,
I kind of had the similarfeeling as well.
But I think not as not as thecontrast was not as dramatic as
yours, like going from theChristmas bureau to going to
Vietnam working for the top.
What is that?
You said the biggest global lawfirm in the world.
Steve Ngo (41:11):
Yeah.
So it is one of the top lawfirms in the
Angie Yu (41:13):
yeah, one of the top law firms in the entire world.
you're you have this like reallyglamorous ex-pat life in this
like rapidly developing nation.
Like it's amazing.
Like you're just there andsoaking it all in.
And when you're on your balcony,you're just like, who am I.
Whereas the little Steve who wasexcited to get a present from
(41:33):
the Christmas bureau.
And I think that contrast iswhat really pulls us back to,
you know, east of ed.
Right.
It sounds like to me, from likethe, the bird's eye view is
like, you went through this hugedramatic shift in your life from
being so poor and just trying toadjust to life in Canada to like
(41:54):
killing it in, in school andthen killing it in work.
And then just being like, oh,but have I stray too far from
home, which was both emotionaland physical.
And now seeing you back here,just like you sell it, it's like
a calling, right?
Because the community has servedyou in your hardest times, and
(42:19):
now that you've You know, nowthat you're in a place where you
can help other people to you,it's calling, it feels like this
is what you are here for is togive back to the community.
And I think that's absolutelybeautiful.
Like, I'm pretty sure there aretie commercials based on your
life.
Steve Ngo (42:36):
I'll cheer you up now.
Oh my God.
Kristy Yee (42:40):
Oh shit.
Now I lost my train of thought.
Angie Yu (42:43):
I, sorry.
Steve Ngo (42:43):
I I mean, I, I enjoy that.
That's so that's so powerfullysaid, I kind of said it better
myself, right?
You are absolutely right.
And it's, you know, I havegotten through struggled, like a
super poor kid, and you'veworked with, to just like the
most, apparently the mostglamorous thing you could do,
right.
Being top-notch law for him,like being a business lawyer
(43:04):
flying around.
And you realize that maybe thisis not it.
Maybe this is not the calling.
Right.
And coming back here, especiallywith this recent campaign Amman,
and I know we are not touchingon it too deeply, but you know,
having experienced a anti-Asianhate crime incident myself last
month, I can't help, but thinkthat everything has kind of led
(43:29):
me to this point, involvement inthe community with other
community groups, my publicspeaking skills, my learning
languages, my, my ability tounderstand the law, my ability
to like have politician,friends, understand the media.
I realized that all this thingwas coming to this one moment
(43:50):
that this is the moment to stepup.
Steven, your parents didn't comehere 30, 40 years ago, suffered
through this point for you tokeep perpetuating that harm.
This is your moment, like useyour language skills, use your
ability to speak, to shape,change, and reflecting on what
(44:12):
you're saying.
I think sometimes, you know, I'mnot a religious person at all,
but I think there is something.
I don't know, maybe it's aconfluence of factors and skills
that come to place, but theremight be some kind of fate
that's guiding what's happeningnow.
It's just too coincidental.
Kristy Yee (44:29):
Yep.
And we believe in serendipitousstuff.
And that what you had justdescribed sounds to me like a
serendipitous event, thateverything coming together, all
of your life experiences, allthe skills that you have built,
the people that you have met nowcoming to fruition for you to
(44:51):
advocate for your people, forthe community, so that we can
better ourselves as a societyand coming back to full circle.
I can see how all of thesethings bring you into it.
And I can see how, like, at thebeginning of this conversation,
(45:12):
I was like, oh my God, Steve,how do you do it?
Like, how do you do at all?
And I'm sure you get asked thisall the time and now I get it.
You do it because it's yourcalling because you are
passionate about it because youwant to give back because all,
all of the things that you havelearned in your life, all of
(45:33):
your experiences have broughtyou to every single one of these
moments.
And right now it is thiscampaign and we will link it all
in the show notes, but it wasalso the beyond the a, it was
also the living room series.
It was also all of those othercommunity
Angie Yu (45:52):
Your Toastmasters, your language.
Yeah.
All your Mandarin lessons themorning, the times when we was
zooming practice Mandarin, youknow, like, yeah.
Like, absolutely.
It's like all these littlethings that you did just came
into this one moment.
That is so well said, like I'mblown away.
Kristy Yee (46:10):
And I can see like all of these things, like, I,
I'm not tired for you anymore.
In fact, in fact, I'm likeenergize, I'm pumped.
I'm like, oh yeah, you do thisto you.
Like, this is, this is yourmoment.
You know, you fucking train forthis shit.
Okay.
Angie Yu (46:27):
Yeah, like I'm fired.
Like, no, we're, we're yourcheerleaders.
Steve Ngo (46:35):
Thank you.
And I take that like with mywhole heart and I, I hear it.
I absolutely soak it in.
Everyone has a certain thingthey do really well.
Right.
And so when you look at it fromthe outside, like, well, this is
definitely not me.
Like this would drain me.
Right.
And that's probably may havebeen the initial question.
Like this sounds too crazy forme, and I'm still trying to
(46:59):
figure it out.
I honestly, I'm still trying tofigure this out, but I know what
doesn't work.
Right?
What doesn't work and whatthat's, what probably is it a
balcony is chasing things thatare actually not.
what doesn't work for me.
Right?
I'm chasing these targets, thesesocial indicators really
pursuing the likes, like havingthese prestigious titles, but
(47:21):
that wasn't me.
Right?
So part of it is just being, forme in these last few years is
having that.
Self-awareness what gives meenergy.
Who are the people I liketalking to you too.
I love talking to them.
I was, this is on my calendar,like since last week, right.
I would highlight in green, upin yellow if I can, but there
are people that I don'tparticularly enjoy talking to.
(47:42):
I'll probably just cancel theinvite.
Right.
But I know that doing thissession would give me energy and
that's, that's the beauty of it.
Kristy Yee (47:51):
That's so awesome.
I love that.
I think this is a great.
Place for us to wrap up for theevening, as much as I want to
keep talking about this withyou, but we have so many good
nuggets.
one of which is the social mediafacade, right?
All of our labels that we have,those are all true to our
identity, but they are not theonly things in our identity.
(48:14):
In fact, it's all the thingsbehind the doors.
That's what truly makes us whowe are.
It's all the things that weexperience all of our low
points, because that's whatbuilds resiliency.
So I would encourage all of ourlisteners to reflect and think
about what are some moments inyour own life, where you have
built resiliency for either withyourself or with your friends or
(48:37):
with your.
Angie Yu (48:38):
And that's exactly the same as, you know what Steve is
going through right now, justfor our listeners.
A little bit more background.
Steve was unfortunately, at thereceiving end of a hate crime
last month.
And, you know, as everyone whoknows
Kristy Yee (48:52):
threw garbage while he was driving through his
window.
That's what happened.
Angie Yu (48:57):
And then which again, like I remember saying this, I'm
like, I Absolutely hate thatthis happened to you, but I'm
also kind of thankful that ithappened to you because like
they mess with the wrong person,you know, And like you show that
many a times.
And I think there were momentswhere I went is Steve.
(49:18):
Okay.
Like he he's, he's going throughso much
Steve Ngo (49:21):
so much like
Angie Yu (49:22):
media attention, like all of this stuff.
It must be so overwhelming, butthen hearing your backstory and
how everything just really ledto this moment.
Okay.
No, he's not overwhelmed becausethis is who he is and this is
what he was meant to do.
And see, again, it was like thefacade of like media attention,
(49:43):
but no, it's Not that Steve gotlucky and was, you know,
interviewed by all of these newsoutlets.
It's because that he had yearsand years of work not to work
towards this moment, but it justhappened in his assets and his
skills made him the perfectperson for this opportunity.
Kristy Yee (50:02):
Well said, Angie, and I think that last point that
you had just mentioned made merealize one last takeaway for us
is that we both kind ofprojected our own shit thinking
about Steve.
We're like, oh my gosh, how doeshe do this?
Like, is this even real?
How is, how is he not tired?
But that all came from like myown experience and how I would
(50:23):
feel if something like thathappened to me and how Angie
would feel as well.
But in reality, you know,that's, that's really not Steve
at all, but, but the lessonlearned today in just our
recording is that, oh shit.
I just predict it.
Pre protected, projected some ofmy own bullshit, you know, onto
Steve.
And then I, and then Iquestioned the authenticity
(50:46):
authenticity of it because I wasusing my own experiences own.
I was putting it onto anotherperson and we do that so often,
but we often don't catchourselves doing.
Angie Yu (51:00):
That's right.
That's right.
So we are sorry for hurlingshit.
I, you let's just grab a dustpan and go, let me just dust
that right off of you.
Steve Ngo (51:11):
I didn't even notice it.
It was just energizing to chatwith the both of you.
So not even don't even.
Yeah,
Kristy Yee (51:17):
Steve, it was so awesome to have you on the show.
How are you feeling right.
Steve Ngo (51:24):
grateful.
I really am.
there's a lot of noise out therein the world.
Right?
A lot of noise of anger, hatebad things.
Like, and it's easy to defaultto spreading that because it
spreads right.
What bleeds leads.
But I am feeling grateful,grateful for this moment to chat
(51:46):
with the both of you gratefulfor the ability to.
Use my, guess, public speakingskills to really push, you know,
making the world better and kindof place.
I'm just grateful for these darkmoments because they have taught
me many lessons and I, Iabsolutely agree.
(52:08):
I wouldn't be who I am nowwithout those moments.
And that's the honest truth.
It's a grateful yeah.
Kristy Yee (52:18):
Thank you, Steve.
Thanks for joining us today andsharing all your stories and
being vulnerable with us.
And I know there were momentswhen you were about to cry and I
just love it.
Angie Yu (52:32):
Yes.
I am an advocate.
I'm an advocate for people whocry.
Kristy Yee (52:37):
Like if we can get people to cry on our show, then
we have succeeded.
Angie Yu (52:42):
Hashtag blessed.
Kristy Yee (53:15):
We know that all the skeletons in our closet.
Angie Yu (53:18):
It's nice to see yours too.
Steve Ngo (53:20):
So Scott, it's just who we are right in sandwiches.
This is, it's just a closet, nota skeleton.
It's just stuff,
Kristy Yee (53:26):
right.
It's all the stuff.
Angie Yu (53:28):
You can either shove everything in the closet and
forget about it or you canreorganize it.
Steve Ngo (53:34):
Yeah.
Dude.
That's the wisdom bomb rightthere.
Boom.
Oh, that's a wisdom bomb.
That's such a great line.
I
Kristy Yee (53:42):
is why we keep the recording on
Steve Ngo (53:45):
Good line.
You could just shove up.
Angie Yu (53:47):
Steve, you love, you love all my like lines, but
honestly I just, try to makethem as cheesy as possible.
You're the only person who'slike, oh, that was so good.
Steve Ngo (53:58):
I think that's good.
Cause I'm going to copy it,right?
Like I want to use the samething.
Down the road.
Like you get shove all the shitin the closet.
Why don't you just reorganizeit?
Dang.
Does he
Kristy Yee (54:10):
some Marie Kondo shit there, you know?
Angie Yu (54:12):
yeah.
Steve Ngo (54:13):
kind of shit?
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