**Content Warning: Death, Depression, Suicide**
We are joined by psychotherapist Shirvin Lee who gets vulnerable and shares her childhood traumas of facing sexism and insurmountable pressures from her family. We also learn how to process and understand emotions better.
“Happiness is not the baseline.” - Shirvin
Resources/Mentions
- Dopamine Nation (Book)
- Why Are Emotions So Important? And How to Address Them (Article)
- Dialectical Behavior Therapy - Self Validation (Article)
Find Shirvin:
- Fundamentally Human by Shirvin Lee (Podcast)
- @therapywithshirvin (Instagram)
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The best way to support this show is by listening and sharing with a friend. If you would like to buy a coffee or bubble tea, we would love that too.
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Send us an audio message by clicking here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shirvin Lee (00:00):
Oh my God, I like 9 25.
I suddenly had to use thewashroom.
I'm like, I hope I make it Ijust hope like I push out fast,
you know?
And I made about
Angie (00:10):
That's very on brand, you know?
Kristy (00:32):
In today's episode, we have Shervin Lee, a
psychotherapist from Vancouver.
She talks about the doublestandards from her Chinese
parents and how she grew upneeding to work for her love.
She also shares a suicidalperiod from high school.
Why she chooses not to tell hermom about her shit and what she
does for her own self care.
Angie (00:56):
Welcome back to another episode of shit.
We don't tell mom, this isAngie.
Kristy (01:00):
This is Christy.
Angie (01:01):
And today we have a guest with us.
We have Shervin Lee here Shervinis the creator of a podcast
called fundamentally human.
Welcome to the show Shervin.
Shirvin Lee (01:11):
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here today.
I am a psychotherapist.
I'm finishing up my internshipand then going to be a
full-fledged psychotherapist bythe fall.
And one of the reasons why I,every out to you guys was
because.
It's actually, I guess it wouldbe niche to have a Asian female
(01:32):
ill therapist because my parentsgrowing up just didn't believe
in mental health.
And still now I think theyalways ask me, yo, you know,
when are you going to do yourPhD?
What is a therapist?
What do you do?
How's it different from a doctorand all those types of things.
So that's a little bit about me,I guess, on the therapy side of
(01:53):
things.
And outside of that, I loveplaying video games, and, living
in Vancouver, I'm usually outand about hiking here and there,
but I guess that's sums me upfor now.
Kristy (02:05):
Tell us more about what you say to your parents when
they ask you those questions?
Shirvin Lee (02:11):
well, in Cantonese, I would say that when you refer
to someone who's a mental healthprofessional, you just use the
word, like some UNG, which is amental health doctor, which
really just means apsychiatrist.
So my mom kept asking me, oh,are you actually a doctor?
What can I tell my friends?
(02:32):
What do I say on WeChat when yougraduate?
Like it's not even about, oh,you know, you've worked hard to
get your schooling done and allof that, it was more, what can I
tell my friends?
Can you just send me a betterpicture of yourself so I can put
it on my WeChat moments?
And then we literally had a longdiscussion about what it was in
(02:54):
Cantonese.
And now she is calling it someLacey, which is like, Mental
health person or mental healthclinician.
Yeah.
Specialist.
So I'm like, I can't believethat she had to really clarify
that because, well, that justgoes to show how important
titles are and something myparents will always tell me is,
(03:17):
oh, don't get too involved withyour clients or you're going to
come out with depression becausethat's how depression happens.
And I'm just like rolling myeyes constantly.
I've truly mastered lookingunimpressed by having a neutral
face over the years.
But inside I am definitelyrolling my eyes hard, but
honestly though, I would sayI'll give credit to them.
(03:39):
They've improved withunderstanding mental health and
being more open to it over theyears.
I would like to say, cause of,the work that I put in for that
but.
Kristy (03:49):
it.
Shirvin Lee (03:50):
Hm, exactly.
But I would still say it'ssometimes they don't understand
exactly what I do.
Cause I think it's not verytangible, you know, let's say,
my brother, he used to be apharmacist.
And then now he's a softwaredeveloper and they don't really
understand what that is.
They really just call it likeplaying with computers or on the
(04:10):
computer all day and same thingwith being a therapist.
I don't think they see thetangible effects of it.
Whereas like a doctor, youperform a surgery that person
has cuts and bandages in theirrecovery and they can see that.
But with mental health, youcan't see it.
So they sometimes don'tunderstand it or they think
(04:31):
it's, I don't think theyrecognize the effects of mental
health yet.
Kristy (04:38):
it's, it's so much more of an abstract thing.
And I think totallygeneralizing, like Asian parents
in that generation right now.
But.
I think because, you know, theygrew up and they lived in a
different time.
They had different priorities.
So much of it was aboutsurvival.
So much of a, a was about likeassimilation, which is also part
(05:02):
of survival and things are somuch more, what's that term?
Shirvin Lee (05:07):
Was it simple back then?
Kristy (05:09):
More like practical thinking about practical things,
very in a practical mindsetrather than abstract thinking.
Yeah.
So because they're in survivalmode, then everything has to be
practical.
Whereas now us in the nextgeneration, we grew up with a
lot more privilege.
We, we now have a lot moreknowledge and we have the safe
(05:32):
space to.
Sure still be practical, butalso explore some abstract
areas.
That's why I think mental healthis a lot more discussed nowadays
and a lot more open, in ourgeneration because it's, I don't
know, easier to venture out intoan abstract world and try to
understand these things ratherthan always be in realistic
(05:53):
mode.
Angie (05:54):
I'm just gonna drop some knowledge from my psychology 1 0
1 class, Maslow's hierarchy, youknow, I feel like we're just
higher up on the tier in ourgeneration, our society just cuz
we're a little bit luckier inthat way, whereas I think it's
great that your parents are likemalleable enough.
(06:15):
They, they kind of, are flexibleenough to kind of listen to you
and take what you say to heartand you know, the showing us off
on WeChat thing is it's so funnybecause to us we're just like,
Ugh, like title that's soshallow, but like you said, it's
practical, right?
So that's like how our parents,show that they are proud of us.
They're not gonna say it.
(06:36):
That's how they.
Display their affection.
It's like, oh, I love this.
I'm proud of this.
I'm gonna put on my WeChatmoment.
the other thing that's reallyinteresting is the Chinese for
psychology, like you said, so Ispeak Mandarin, but it's the
same word, like singly AsianShia.
And I think it's reallyinteresting because she means
(06:56):
heart and they mean science.
So it's like the science of theheart, heart science.
Whereas like, if you talk aboutsomething more practical, like,
I don't know, like cardiology,which is also heart, but in, in
Mandarin sing out, whichliterally means like the heart
organ, the science of the heartorgan, but then in Chinese,
(07:16):
psychology is singly the scienceof heart because you know,
that's so I think that's reallyinteresting as well
Kristy (07:24):
you know, when you say that?
I think again, I go back to thatpractical and abstract thinking,
it's like, you can totallyvisualize it.
Right.
And then heart science, which issome late that's like artsy, you
know, it's
Shirvin Lee (07:39):
Yeah, I can't catch us going to Arts for a
bachelor's.
Oh my God.
I remember that conversation.
My parents had with me don't dothat so much judgment
Angie (07:52):
through that.
All the judgment, all thepotential disappointments and et
cetera.
And now they're proud of youbecause they post about you on
WeChat.
Shirvin Lee (08:01):
I made it.
Angie (08:04):
I made it look your moments.
Kristy (08:07):
So our show is called shit.
We don't tell mom.
And this is our first timehaving like someone like a
professional person from thepsychology field on our show.
I'm curious from yourperspective, like why do you
think it is difficult for someof us to share shit with our mom
or a parental figure?
Yeah.
Shirvin Lee (08:28):
Yeah.
And especially thinking back tomy mom, I would think back when
I was younger and even now Iwould see a lot of, let's say
white people or my whitefriends, they're able to share
with their parents.
It's like, they're all bestfriends.
They all cuddle and cry andwatch movies with their moms.
And I'm like, oh God, how do Ido that?
(08:53):
oh, like, what was the last timeI told my mom, I love you.
That's so weird.
You know?
she cuts me fruit by her food.
It works out in equal exchange.
That way it's transactional.
And I think a lot of it goesback to what you were saying
about things being practical andsurvival.
Like I think back to my parents,as corny as it might sound, they
(09:17):
came to Canada in the eightiesand they grew up, or their
parents, my grandparents grew upduring the war times.
So for them literally, theywould be telling me, you know,
that one grain of rice is reallyimportant.
Make sure you eat every singlegrain of rice in the bowl.
Whereas now we have the luxuryand freedom to take things home
(09:37):
or to not eat everything.
It's okay.
We still survive because we havea billion things that we can
choose to eat from now.
So when they have that mindsetof survival, then that means
what are the things that givethem the best life.
And you mentioned the hierarchyearlier.
So for them, it's having a roofover the head of our, having a
(09:58):
roof over our.
And having clothes to wear.
I mean, I'm sure many of us havehad 500 jackets to wear outside
in 15 degrees weather becauseour parents didn't want our
throats to get colder, our headsto get cold, because that means
we would get sick or making sureyou have enough water having
your fruit cut for you.
So you're not starving and youget your nutrients.
(10:21):
And then that translates lateron into school.
Where, oh, are you studyingscience?
Are you studying somewhere thatgives you a professional career?
How much money are you going tomake?
Are you going to get married andhave children?
You know, to them, those are allthe steps of life.
But then for us, when we grewup, we learned about that.
(10:41):
It's okay to fail and it's okayto make mistakes, but for them,
they had a very, very lowthreshold.
How much, how many mistakes theycan make.
One mistake can really changethe course of their lives.
So for them, they are more onedge, I would say, compared to
us.
And because of that, there wasno opportunity to be vulnerable,
(11:02):
no opportunity to be weak, or toget a B going back to
stereotypes, no opportunity todo anything that would impact
your survivability and yourchance of succeeding in life.
So, yeah, that means literallyno emotions.
You are a robot.
And because of that, I, youknow, I haven't really shared
(11:23):
things with my parents because Ihave to appear robotic in front
of them.
Angie (11:27):
Wow.
Like you put it into sucharticulate words.
that was fairly eloquent abouthow they never, they weren't
able to make mistakes.
And I was like, oh man, you'reright.
Yeah.
Cuz a simple mistake could meanthat's it.
Like you're gonna have ahorrible life now.
Kristy (11:44):
Like the magnitude is so much bigger.
So mistakes are justunaffordable.
Like you, you can't afford tomake mistakes.
And, and I think that comes fromthat survival mode that they
were in and it gets passed downto us because obviously they
want to protect us cuz they loveus.
And that's the way that theyshow how they love us.
(12:07):
And yeah, I, I am still thinkingabout what you had just said
because I don't think I haveframed it in that way.
Thinking about how, if I make amistake it's okay.
And we're taught that it's okaybecause we are now in this safe,
privileged space living inCanada.
Mostly safe and we're taughtthat, Hey, you know what?
(12:27):
It's O it's okay to fail.
In fact, failing is part of thejourney of wherever your path is
gonna lead you.
And, and it's just a differentlesson than what they were
taught.
Angie (12:40):
Yeah.
And almost, Shervin the way youframed it also made me think,
cuz you know, I have been to,therapy and I have gone through
some tools, especially C, B T aswell, which is really important
for, treating, the symptoms ofbipolar disorder, which is what
I have.
Now that you say it like that.
I was like, maybe the reason whyit takes us.
(13:02):
Like we have to be the onepushing their boundaries into a
space where they learn like,Hey, risks are okay to take.
So, you know, they're like, youhave to be a pharmacist.
You have to be a doctor wherethings are very concrete, like a
typical doctor, like surgeon orfamily doctor.
But then once you show them,Hey, I decided to go somewhere
(13:23):
else and I'm okay.
It's almost like exposuretherapy for them.
Right.
It goes into that space of like,look, I, when else I, your
comfort zone and I survive.
In fact, I'm thriving.
And then they go, huh?
Okay.
Let me post about this onWeChat.
Shirvin Lee (13:46):
I've had a lot of built up resentment and I still
sometimes do, but the reframingcame in probably in the last few
years when I really thoughtabout, you know, why are they
the way they are?
And it's not easy to beempathetic at times.
Sometimes I get so frustratedand I just want to be like, oh
my God, please be nice to us.
(14:06):
But I get where they're comingfrom.
Angie (14:09):
Yeah, you can, you can be understanding and also
frustrated at the same time for.
Kristy (14:15):
mean, we're all just learning, right?
Like we can't be perfect, but atleast we're in a space now where
we're not Justy teenagers.
Shevin you mentioned like somestuff that you, you didn't open
about with your mom before, andyou know, now you're a different
person, but take us back tothat.
I don't know, ancy teenager,early twenties.
(14:37):
what was that relationship likewith you and your mom?
Shirvin Lee (14:41):
Yeah.
Well, I love that.
I know the podcast is about ourmoms and that's very much true
because my dad wasn't reallyaround and still, you know, I
live with my parents because inVancouver, of course you stay
for as long as you can.
And with my dad, he is there attimes, but he's often working
(15:03):
because to him, that's the.
Definition of survival.
If we work, we have money andthat's all he's been trained to
do.
He's a robot in that sense.
And in grade one or grade two,we had this project to draw and
write about what our parentslike to do.
so I wrote, my mom likes tosleep and my dad likes to work
(15:26):
because my mom would usuallytake a nap after she picks me
up.
And that's all I saw.
I'm like, oh, she, she likes tosleep.
And my mom has brought this songwith me multiple times.
And you know, now I realize, oh,you know, she did all the
cooking and laundry and cleaningand groceries, and she has a
part-time job.
And she did all of that when Iwas in school.
(15:47):
So of course, by the time shepicked me up in the middle of
the day, she would nap.
And that's not all she did.
Yeah.
Little me didn't realize thatshe did more than napping.
So, you know, when you're seven,that's kind of all you see at
that time.
And.
I think letter grades at thattime came out when you started
in grade five or something.
(16:09):
So my parents were alwayspushing my brother and I to, you
know, get the best gradespossible.
Be the best student in yourclass.
I was doing piano.
I was doing, cello and they putme in tutoring and they're like,
don't tell people you're intutoring so that they think
you're smarter.
And I actually did mention thatfor many, many years.
(16:31):
Cause I was like, oh my God, Ido look smarter if I don't tell
people, it's ridiculous.
Thinking back to it now.
And just a lot of stuff.
Thinking back as like a, I don'tknow, seven to 16 year old,
that's a lot of pressure to haveto.
20 different things to Excel inall those things.
And to be expected to thinkabout your career, to think
(16:53):
about what you're going to dowhen you get married, how many
kids you're going to have whenyou're a teenager.
And I was truly quite depressedwhen I was young and.
A lot of it is also being in avery traditional family.
My brother, who's older, youknow, he's the prized kid of the
family.
He's going to carry the familyname on he's older.
(17:16):
He's the first born he's male.
And in China, they've had rulesabout only having one kid.
So of course you have the kidwho's the stronger one.
And my parents would often tellme that know, I know they don't
think this now, but back thenthey wished they had another
boy.
They didn't wish they didn'thave a daughter.
And that's really hurtful whenyou're a kid and you're just
(17:36):
trying to get out there in theworld.
And then you see all your wife,friends being happy.
And in elementary school, therewere three Asian kids including
me.
So that's a lot to put on.
And I was very depressed when Iwas a kid.
And there were times when I wasyounger that I was suicidal
because I was like, well, Idon't belong here.
That's all I knew.
And I didn't know that wasdepression or being suicidal
(17:58):
when I was younger.
That was just me.
Figuring out where I was in theworld and what place I did have.
And I just knew that if I didn'tdo well, it meant really bad
news.
It meant, you know, you get hitwith chopsticks, a duster,
whatever you can find at home.
And I laugh now because it wasone time I thought I was so
(18:18):
smart.
I put a pillow in my pantsthinking, oh, they won't know
that I'm gonna have likesomething there to like, make it
so it won't hurt as much.
Of course they Don they can feelthe pillow I thought it was so
smart fact that, but it's thingslike that where, you know, you
grow up having to ha cope thatway, putting a goddamn pillow in
your pants.
I mean, that's crazy, crazypants to have to think of that
(18:41):
to survive, but all in all ischeesy as it sounds.
I think if I didn't go through alot of what I had gone through
in the past, I wouldn't be asresilient as I am now, or even
understanding or being able toreframe because you know, back
then I resented now it's like,okay.
I guess that's like all you knewit makes sense.
Kristy (19:04):
mean, like, think about the amount of pressure that this
seven year old child has all theway up to 16.
Being confused about their ownidentity, feeling the pressure
from your family of needing tobe someone meet certain
(19:25):
expectations so that I can havevalue so that I can feel loved,
especially already being a girlbeing unwanted.
So I have to prove myself evenmore so I can get that love that
I want.
And then being surrounded by allthese other people in school who
just like gets unconditionallove.
Not saying your parents didn'tgive you unconditional love, but
(19:47):
it feels like you had to workfor it.
And that's a lot of fuckingpressure and so much confusion
about yourself and who you areand your self value and your
self worth.
And you have to think about thatfrom like primary years, all the
way up until I'm sure like highschool.
Probably even in our twenties,
Angie (20:09):
Yeah, even now,
Kristy (20:10):
even who I might be a little bit better than 16 year
old Christie, but like, I'm justimagining this seven year old
girl driven.
Shirvin Lee (20:17):
mm-hmm
Kristy (20:19):
And you mentioned, you know, having suicidal thoughts
when you were younger.
Shirvin Lee (20:23):
Yeah.
I, in grade 12, we had thisretreat where we, I was one of
the retreat leaders and as aretreat leader, we had to share
about our.
Childhoods and, or notchildhoods, but something
traumatic to us.
I, I don't know why we did that.
Actually.
That's kind of a little weirdthinking but it actually was one
(20:44):
of the first times I ever openedup about this because I thought
all of this was normal and thatwas in grade 12 in grade 10.
And one of our planning classes,we had to talk about how we
would discipline children ordiscipline in general.
I don't know how the topic cameup, but I said, oh,
Kristy (21:06):
oh, what a Chinese answer.
I'm sure lots of other culturestoo, and we're not condoning
violence at home, but we'relaughing because it came from a
place of pain.
At one point in our lives.
This is a shared experience.
I'm sure for many of us todayand, and for our listeners, but
(21:26):
we laugh.
It's.
Angie (21:28):
Yeah.
Shirvin Lee (21:29):
It's so true.
And I said it completelyseriously.
And then I remember the look ofshock on my teacher's face and
I'm, I don't, I can't rememberanything after that.
I just remember that one moment.
I said, just hit that.
That's all I knew, you know,being hit, being pressured and
all of that.
And.
(21:50):
I can remember as early asprobably when I was seven, cuz
that was a memorable age for mewhere I was, my parents kept
like a knife in their room and Ihad taken it out.
I was, I don't think I was everat the point where I would
actually hurt myself because Iwas too scared of pain.
I I think, no, just to put itall out there, I thought about
(22:11):
it.
If I were to ever die, it wouldprobably be in the most painless
way, like an OD or somethinglike that, where I'm, poisoning
myself in some way.
I don't think I can ever jumpoff a building or like shoot
myself or anything.
I'm too scared of the, how thepaint feels.
So as a kid, I knew all of that.
These aren't thoughts that I hadas an adult, I had the, these
(22:32):
thoughts when I was inelementary school and high
school, you know, probably fromwatching TV or the is where I
learned all of this, who knows,but.
That I think that's really sad.
I guess I, it pains me to thinkabout how I was when I was
younger.
And I had these thoughts when Iwas younger and I was often
wondering, do I even belonghere?
You know, as a female, mybrother's so much better.
(22:53):
He never gets in trouble.
I put in all this work and itdoesn't matter.
So yeah, it was a very, somedark times when I was younger
and just contemplating myidentity.
My belonging is how much work isever going to be enough for my
parents.
When will they finally saythey're proud of me or that
(23:15):
they're happy for me?
So those are a lot of thoughts Ihad when I was younger.
Angie (23:22):
I'm sorry.
It's makes my heart very heavyto hear that.
Just because, you know, like,yeah, like there's such a big
difference, like about how ourparents treat their sons and
then versus their daughters,it's like one additional thing
on, on top, right?
Like, yes, we might face kind ofthe similar amount of pressure.
(23:45):
We have the same parents, butyet we get treated completely
differently and that's just,it's very sad.
And, yeah.
I'm sorry you went through that.
I.
Kristy (24:00):
The story that you shared Shervin.
We all have our own uniqueexperiences and our own unique
stories, but there's alwayscommonality threads that we
relate to.
And I think a lot of people whohave siblings that are male in
likely an Asian background feltsimilar things, needing to prove
(24:27):
themselves, needing to work hardfor their love and feeling like
it's so unfair that I would getin trouble for something, but
they won't get in trouble fordoing the same thing, you know,
or I would be yelled at so muchmore than they would be.
And it's like having thesedouble standards and you grow up
(24:48):
learning that this is just howthe way works, you know, and
growing up, even thinking like.
Violence.
That's the way to go.
That's how you discipline kids.
That's how you learn stuff,because that's how I learned it.
And, and honestly, I thinkthat's how, that's why our
parents do it because that's howthey learned it.
Angie (25:05):
Shevin.
Have you ever spoken to yourparents, or like confronted them
about what they did as when you
Shirvin Lee (25:15):
That's a good question.
And just to, I guess, give morecontext to it.
Christie mentioned about havingto prove yourself.
And I, even to this day, now Istill have this need to prove
myself.
It looks like different thingsgrowing up.
And you know, in my late teensand twenties, that's when
Facebook and Instagram andSnapchat all came out and I felt
(25:37):
like I had to post things toprove myself, just like how my
parents post things to provetheir worth on WeChat.
It all makes sense.
And you know, even now it'slike, I feel like I constantly
have to do tons of things orhave to succeed or look like I'm
successful to prove my own work.
(25:58):
And I.
I don't really do it to prove itto externally my friends or
coworkers or anything like that.
But I do it to two parts,proving myself and proving my
parents because I have this fearof constantly disappointing
them.
And because of that, it's alwaysbeen difficult to really tell
(26:19):
them these experiences.
I've told them little ti bitswhere, you know, I've told them
some resentment about forcing meto go into sciences or how my
brother was unhappy about beingforced into pharmacy and that
there were so many other optionsavailable and I felt like they
coerced me.
You know, I wished we had sometype of open dialogue about it
(26:42):
and, but they didn't know anybetter.
So yeah, having thoseconversations was often hard and
I told them about, you know, howI felt that they treated my
brother better than I did.
I think I told them when I wasin my early twenties or in my
late teens, I haven't talkedabout it recently because I've
honestly accepted the fact thatit's.
(27:03):
Digging up a lot of hurt andpain.
And sometimes I think it's noteven worth to have that
conversation anymore and wefocus on other topics instead.
But when I did bring it up backthen, I remember they were
really offended.
They were like, no, not us.
How can, like, they didn'trealize it themselves, that they
were putting me under all thispressure.
(27:24):
They were treating medifferently.
And you know, an example is mygrandma.
She let's say it.
I must have been like 20 or 21cuz I was still in my undergrad
and I was working part-time andusually my schedule would be
going to school in the morninghaving lunch.
And then I come home and I workfor a couple of hours at an
(27:46):
elementary school runningprograms.
And then I would take a shortnap before dinner and my grandma
would wake me up when I wasnapping to help her with random
things that could, she couldhave waited.
Whereas one time, you know, Iwoke.
And I was really annoyed andgroggy and I said, oh, why don't
you just ask my brother?
(28:07):
And she would say, oh no, heneeds to rest.
And he's on his computer, justdoing stuff like, excuse me, I
am literally sleeping.
You want me to like, change thetime on your micro?
It was something like obscureand not even important and stuff
like that.
Growing up where it wasblatantly obvious, there was so
(28:28):
much sexism and I would bring itup.
Like my now I'm going on arampage.
This is honestly a therapysession for me.
So thank you everyone here.
but I remember my dad.
Would tell me like, you know,men are smarter than women, you
know, men are more successfulif, and they would even say
(28:48):
things like, oh, if you look atall the people in like fortune
500, all the CEOs, CEOs,whatever, they are always almost
men or all the scientists andstuff, the most reputed ones are
always meant.
So therefore men are smarter andlo and behold, look who has the
master and who does it?
My brother does it.
it's okay.
He's like really, really smart.
(29:12):
he knows it.
He knows, I think he's smart.
So it's okay.
But it's like, stuff like thatwhere they would like, now I'm
ki we, we can laugh at it cuzwe're older and we're like, Hey,
whatever, but yeah.
Oh man.
When you're like a kid andyou're a teenager in your early
twenties when you're soimpressionable.
That's the things and that's whyto this day, I'm going to, I'm
(29:33):
in my late twenties now, but I'mstill suffering with this need
of proving my worth because it'slike, is it ever going to be
enough for them?
Oh, that was a bit of a spiel.
Angie (29:46):
No, no, it's,
Kristy (29:48):
was great.
Angie (29:49):
relatable.
I think it's like, first of all,it's like, like, like, you know,
it's just such a, it's not evenreduced to our culture either.
It's just like such a globalthing, but we feel it growing up
and we, we like, it impacts ourday to day.
Like you say, you can't evenfreaking take a nap, so you
(30:10):
can't even have nap withoutbeing interrupted because you
are a girl and you have to gohelp your, parents, even like,
like my parents are pretty, youknow, like people who have heard
the, podcast before, like myparents are pretty open minded.
Even my mom, she was liketreated really well growing up
(30:33):
because, my grandparentsactually wanted a daughter.
When they gave birth to my momand they were spending money to
put my mom through school, thevillagers were like, why are you
wasting your money kind ofthing.
So even though, even though mymom had that upbringing, she
still absorbed a lot of,internalized sexism because
(30:54):
that's at home, maybe not, butlike outside, like she still
experienced that sexism.
So she'll say things like, oh,having a daughter is better
because they'll, they'll,they'll treat you better.
They take care of you.
And even though it's a positivething, I don't think
Kristy (31:11):
And it just goes to
Angie (31:12):
her or our parents realize that like, it can
actually be harmful because itmakes us think, Hey, careers are
not pursuing.
careers are not worth pursuing.
It's better to stay at home andtake care of your.
Mom and your dad and your aginggrandparents or something like
that, which is why like, Hey,why do you think CEOs are men?
Okay.
They got to get away with it.
(31:33):
You know, they were able to goout and pursue their careers and
maybe we weren't.
Right.
So yeah, like even, even if youthink your parents are open
minded, they're still the,they're still like a symptom of
society.
That's why I said like, no, it'snot a rampage at all.
It's just, it's so relatable.
(31:53):
So thank you for sharing.
Kristy (32:03):
that.
We don't tell mom even apsychotherapist has shit that
she does not tell mom.
Shirvin Lee (32:13):
Mm-hmm
Kristy (32:13):
we all have different ways of like, dealing with it,
whether it's like, Hey, this isactually not really worth my
time.
I'm gonna work on myself.
I'm gonna work on reframing,better understanding my parents
and then just, you know, talk tothem about other things, move on
for other people.
It's like, Hey, actually, let'sdig back on some of that pain.
And like, let's talk about itbecause it's important to me.
(32:35):
So there's no like one way orlike a quote unquote right way.
But it's really about like,processing that experience your
own stories and then see, how doyou wanna move forward from
that, with your relationshipwith your family or whomever.
Angie (32:50):
Yeah.
Not to diminish what, Shervinsaid, but like, you know, she's
a psychotherapist and you know,she still.
Shit to deal with too, you know,like I kind of wanna know what
inspired you to go into it too,like co not your podcast, but
just everything that you do,like advocating for mental
health, becoming, a therapist.
Like how did that happen?
Shirvin Lee (33:16):
So how it, I actually got to, it was after I
graduated from my undergrad, Ireally wanted to do some type of
healthcare.
Maybe nonprofit, I wanted togive back in some way, I wanted
to do work that works withpeople.
And I found this, job, and I'mstill at it now at a substance
(33:38):
use clinic.
And I worked, you can think ofa, as a coordinator or program
manager type of thing, justmaking sure the clinic is up and
running.
And because of that, I wastalking daily with all of the
clients and people calling inand asking about it.
When you see people, ifsomeone's drinking like two
(34:00):
bottles of wine every day, andthen by the end of the program,
they're drinking one glass ofwine a week and they're so much
happier and I see you smilingChristie, but that's literally
how I felt.
Every time I heard about someonejust making change on their own
accord and their own pace.
And, you know, I realized thisnow, but when I was younger, I
(34:22):
was always on my parents'schedule, always on what their
schedule of what they wanted forme.
And now as a therapist,psychotherapist and in some type
of capacity and mental health,you're able to help people.
Make change on their own accordand on their own schedule in a
way they want to and what worksfor them.
(34:43):
And in the clinic, I worked witha lot of different therapists
and doctors and I talked to themregularly and I really liked the
work they did.
So I went into school for thatand just finished school.
And here I am just wanting toshare more.
That's what led me to thepodcast too, because I felt like
I learned a lot of these thingsthat now seem common sense to
(35:04):
me, but a lot of people didn'tlearn and well, that makes
sense.
I went to school for it.
so hopefully I got something outof it and just being able to
share and have people rethink orreframe situations.
And with my parents, I don'ttalk to them about depression
and suicide and the difficult,painful moments I had, because I
(35:24):
truly think that they won'treally understand it or be open
to it.
But something I did at I've doneat home is.
Teaching my mom gratitudesaying, thank you.
You know, after every meal, I'llalways thank her.
And if I do something, Iencourage her to thank me.
And actually the first year, shereally well because of the
pandemic, I work at home.
(35:45):
So she sees me all the time andI see her, but she really didn't
understand it.
And I said, I'm thanking you foryour time and your effort.
Yes.
Maybe you quote unquote shoulddo it because you're my mom.
And that's what she says.
She thinks she should be doingthese things.
And I really don't believe inthat.
I tell her, you know, I can makemy own food.
I can go buy food.
(36:06):
There are a ton of things thatwe could do, but I am still
thankful for you.
I'm, there's a lot of gratitudethere and now she recognizes the
importance and she says, thankyou back to me too now.
So I think that was, a majorthing that we worked on in the
last two years together, livingat home.
Kristy (36:24):
Not only are you role modeling, these positive changes
in your own household by showingyou know, your mom about
gratitude and teaching her aboutgratitude, but you're also
actively talking to her aboutit, like why this is important
and why we should be thankful.
And it's interesting because my,my mom is.
(36:44):
Making these changes as well.
And and I'm gonna say, it's not,it's not me.
It wasn't my efforts.
but I'm gonna, I'm gonna like,take a little bit of, little bit
of win by saying like, I, Italked to her about the
importance of paying attentionto our own mental health.
And from that she started tolike, listen to these philosophy
(37:07):
lecturers and lecturers frompsychologists and psychiatrists.
And through there, she startedlearning about.
The importance of gratitude andfeeling thankful.
So she's now telling me okay, onlike, what's that message.
She'd be like today.
I woke up and I thanked all thegods and Buddha for keeping the
(37:29):
And you know, the sun is shiningtoday and when I go to bed, I
thank all the gods and theBuddhas again, so at, in some
level, right?
Like we're practicing it verydifferently, but she is, she is,
reflecting on the things thatshe has to be thankful for.
And.
(37:51):
And, and I love these littlewins, right?
Like it's now we are actively orpassively teaching our parents
about some of these importantthings, even if we're not
sitting down and like, let'stalk about depression, we're
doing it in our own way.
And it shows up in our parentsand they actually reciprocate
maybe a lot more than we mightthink they would.
Angie (38:14):
Yeah.
And it's, it's a different typeof gratifying too.
when you see your parents makingthose changes, you're like, I
helped, I had something to dowith this, even though they're,
you know, our parents, becausewe grow up thinking they're like
invaluable.
Right.
And then we are like, oh,they're humans to Ugh.
Oh.
And then we grow to resent them.
Like we look up to them and thenwe resent them.
(38:36):
And then we come to understandthat they're just, you know,
human beings, this whole likecycle that we go through too.
and then seeing them actuallylike improving themselves at
their age, like it's.
Great.
It's great.
Kristy (38:52):
I'm gonna pivot a little bit something on your website,
Ervin.
almost it's like a tagline.
Happiness is not a baseline.
I love that.
It, I feel like it keeps comingup on, on all of your things.
Where did that come from?
And like, could you tell us moreof what that means to you?
Shirvin Lee (39:10):
Yeah, I'm really into the word baseline right
now.
earlier this month I read, orthis year I read a book called
dopamine nation and sheessentially talks about.
How your baseline is going tolook different compared to
everyone else.
So what that means in the senseof dopamine is everyone has a
(39:32):
different level of dopamineoutput, or you get it from
different things.
And her book is more aboutaddiction.
So let's say when you'redrinking alcohol, you're
rewarded with dopamine becauseit's sending messages to your
brain to release dopaminechemicals, to be happier,
rewarded, having this highfeeling.
(39:54):
So, and it really, really standsout to me because we're taught,
you know, even if you do asurvey, you're taught that
having a 10 out of 10 is normal.
It means you did a good job orhaving a nine out of 10 or
getting an 80 or a 90 or gettinganything over a 90 means you've
done well, but.
(40:15):
You know, when I starteduniversity, it was very normal
to have sixties or 70 averageson a midterm.
And that was a huge wakeup callbecause that was, really tough
to tell my Asian parents when Iwasn't doing well at first.
And when I talk about happinessis a, is not the baseline.
(40:36):
what I mean is let's say goingback to a scale of one to 10, a
five out of 10, it might seemlike you're a failure.
It might seem like you justpassed, but actually that's
right smack in the middle that'saverage.
That's neutral.
So when I think of it this way,I think we can be kinder to
ourselves where a five out of 10is how we are.
(40:58):
On most days, some days we are6, 7, 8, 9, even at 10, we're
feeling happy.
Maybe we went to the gym for thefirst time in a while.
Maybe we had a really goodmeeting at work or some days it
might be go lower 4, 3, 2, 1negatives.
We had a really bad day.
Our favorite cup broke or we gotfired, or I don't know.
(41:20):
There's so many things thathappen.
And being able to recognize thatwe're not always having to be at
a nine or a 10.
Can be really relieving becausethat's a lot of pressure we put
on ourselves to always want tobe happy and to show everyone,
you know, we're always happy andstuff and really succeeding, but
that's not how most of us reallyare.
I mean, I'm sitting here in asweatshirt and then really
(41:43):
flowery pants.
And to me, that's the 10 outta10 to some people, it might not
feel like they're they look puttogether.
So even in that sense, thebaseline of how you feel about
yourself is going to lookdifferent for everyone.
And I think that's reallyimportant to realize, and not
only for yourself, but the typeof expectations you put on other
(42:03):
people too.
Kristy (42:06):
freaking love that like 50% is not failure.
50% is neutral.
Shirvin Lee (42:12):
And
Angie (42:12):
Yeah, that's great.
Kristy (42:14):
There are some unlearning that we gotta do.
Angie (42:16):
you know, you know, what's funny is that before we
started recording, I messagedChristy.
I was like, Hey, good morning.
And she's like, morning.
She's like, by the way, myenergy level today is seven
outta 10.
And in my head, I was like,that's pretty good.
seven outta 10.
Like I was gonna say, my levelis like seven out 10 today.
But Christy said it almost as inlike, Hey, like, I don't know
(42:36):
about my energy level.
It's seven outta 10.
And I hope that she learned alesson here.
I'm just kidding.
Shirvin Lee (42:43):
it can change.
that's an important part.
Kristy (42:47):
let's go to that conversation because when I had
sent you that message Angie,what my actual intention was,
was to let you know, I'm not atmy a game.
I'm not at a hundred percent.
I'm not like fully there to belike, yeah, let's we're gonna
podcast today.
I'm like super excited, blah,blah, blah.
Right.
(43:07):
I am
Shirvin Lee (43:09):
Thank you.
I'm
Kristy (43:10):
But.
Shirvin Lee (43:11):
glad.
Kristy (43:12):
But I wanted to like, let Angie know, like, Hey, I'm,
I'm not a hundred percent.
So if I seem a little bit off,like, I'm gonna need you to like
take over and, you know, balanceout my energy.
And basically like have my backis what I was wanting to say.
But what's interesting now isthat, you know, that
(43:32):
conversation was like, what, anhour ago?
And an hour ago, my baseline wassupposedly 10 out of 10.
Like, and that anything belowthat was like, oh, I have to
explain myself.
Angie (43:44):
Mm-hmm
Kristy (43:45):
And now, you know, 50 minutes later into this
conversation, I'm like, oh shit,50% is actually just neutral.
Like, why is my baseline ahundred?
That's so unrealistic.
That's like that perfectionismside of me coming out.
And I didn't even realize it.
Angie (44:03):
Yeah.
And I knew exactly what youmeant too.
When you said seven out 10.
Like, I, I, I knew exactly whatyou meant.
That's why I'm like, oh, I'm soI'm so glad that Sher's like,
Hey, five out of 10 is neutral.
Shirvin Lee (44:15):
And actually that's a really good point.
You guys are, you two are reallyclose.
So Angie understood what youmeant, Christie, but the thing
is we feel like we always haveto present our best selves to
other people.
Whereas it takes a lot ofvulnerability and strength to
ask, Hey, I might need yoursupport today, or I'm going to
need you to back me up when Ihave brain fog.
And I can't think of the nextquestion to ask or guess that
(44:38):
happens to me often, but I thinkthese are the type of things we
can tell other people that wemight not be as close with and
let them know what support lookslike for us that day.
And also to recognize if you'resitting at a 7 0 10, right now,
it's always subject to change.
I mean, I woke up and I waslike, oh God, my voice is like,
really.
Like it was like crackingsorority and I couldn't get out
(45:00):
of the, I just woke up voice forlike 20 minutes.
I was literally talking tomyself like 10 minutes before
just saying random things, justto warm up my voice.
And you know, when it's rainingon a Sunday and it's early in
the morning, I wasn't feelingthat my a game either, but I
felt so welcomed.
And so warmed by you guys that,you know, that changed and that
(45:22):
we're always subject to change.
And it depends on so many thingslike our environment, the people
we're with our own energylevels, waking up throughout the
day.
And I think a lot of peopledon't recognize that you can
change just because you, youknow, we hear a lot of, oh, I
woke up on the wrong side of thebed this morning, or I didn't
wake up.
(45:43):
Well, that doesn't mean thatthat's the rest of your day.
It might mean you're more tired,but you're not going to be
grumpy the entire day.
Maybe just the first hour.
Angie (45:53):
mm-hmm and honestly, I think the work that both of you
do are so important, butespecially Shervin, just because
I've personally benefited frompsychotherapy.
And like, I think it's such animportant job and it's so, so
important that we have moretherapists, especially in our
community, because it's soimportant.
(46:13):
And I was so lucky to get atherapist that was like Asian
female, grew up in the west, butalso has a lot of background
from the east.
Like I was so lucky and in, inthe work that was done during,
my psychotherapy sessions, oneof the things that she taught
me, one of the tools that shereally.
(46:34):
Gave me was like recognizingemotions, cuz like I just didn't
know how the point of theexercise was to like understand
my baseline.
Right.
So it was like situation, name,your emotions.
How do you feel right now?
And then name your actions?
Like what did you doimmediately?
And then after a while, nameyour, how your emotions are like
once you've journaled and Icould see my emotions, like go
(46:58):
from really intense to moremild.
And that was like a way for meto understand like, Hey,
emotions, move your, your moodis dynamic.
It's not like the same all thetime.
So the baseline thing, like whenI read.
Not slogan that motto that youhave the Mo I was like, oh,
that's like so fundamental.
(47:19):
And that's like really needs tobe imprinted into like
everybody's mind.
Kristy (47:24):
I'm gonna say it again.
Okay.
It's happiness is not abaseline.
50% is neutral, Shevin thank youso much for sharing your time,
your energy and your story forallowing us and our listeners to
grow with you from seven yearsold, to late twenties and being
(47:45):
vulnerable about your suicidalthoughts and that period of your
life.
We learned a lot about reframingrole modeling, and that
everything is dynamic, includingour energy and our identities
and how we kind of figure shitout because we are all just kind
of figuring shit out.
And at the end, happiness is nota baseline five outta 10 is just
(48:08):
neutral.
So thank you, Shervin.
Shirvin Lee (48:11):
Thank you so much for having me today.
Kristy (48:14):
Okay.
Last question.
Where can our listeners find you
Shirvin Lee (48:19):
yes.
So my website is shervin.ca S HI R V I N.
Dot CA.
I have an Instagram accounttherapy with Shervin and my
podcast is fundamentally human.
And you can find that on mostplatforms.
Kristy (48:37):
you listen to your podcasts?
Shirvin Lee (48:40):
Exactly.
Kristy (48:40):
thank you again.
VIN.
It's been such a great pleasurechatting with you today.
Shirvin Lee (48:45):
Thank you.
(49:18):
Aw, I'm so glad I found youguys, like you guys just showed
up on, like, I think I, I likelooked you guys up on Facebook
and we had like so many mutualfriends and then
Kristy (49:27):
whoa, 26 mutual friends.
Oh my God, I like 9 25.
I suddenly had to use thewashroom.
I'm like, I hope I make it Ijust hope like I push out fast,
you know?
And I made about
Angie (00:10):
That's very on brand, you know?
Kristy (00:32):
In today's episode, we have Shervin Lee, a
psychotherapist from Vancouver.
She talks about the doublestandards from her Chinese
parents and how she grew upneeding to work for her love.
She also shares a suicidalperiod from high school.
Why she chooses not to tell hermom about her shit and what she
does for her own self care.
Angie (00:56):
Welcome back to another episode of shit.
We don't tell mom, this isAngie.
Kristy (01:00):
This is Christy.
Angie (01:01):
And today we have a guest with us.
We have Shervin Lee here Shervinis the creator of a podcast
called fundamentally human.
Welcome to the show Shervin.
Shirvin Lee (01:11):
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here today.
I am a psychotherapist.
I'm finishing up my internshipand then going to be a
full-fledged psychotherapist bythe fall.
And one of the reasons why I,every out to you guys was
because.
It's actually, I guess it wouldbe niche to have a Asian female
(01:32):
ill therapist because my parentsgrowing up just didn't believe
in mental health.
And still now I think theyalways ask me, yo, you know,
when are you going to do yourPhD?
What is a therapist?
What do you do?
How's it different from a doctorand all those types of things.
So that's a little bit about me,I guess, on the therapy side of
(01:53):
things.
And outside of that, I loveplaying video games, and, living
in Vancouver, I'm usually outand about hiking here and there,
but I guess that's sums me upfor now.
Kristy (02:05):
Tell us more about what you say to your parents when
they ask you those questions?
Shirvin Lee (02:11):
well, in Cantonese, I would say that when you refer
to someone who's a mental healthprofessional, you just use the
word, like some UNG, which is amental health doctor, which
really just means apsychiatrist.
So my mom kept asking me, oh,are you actually a doctor?
What can I tell my friends?
(02:32):
What do I say on WeChat when yougraduate?
Like it's not even about, oh,you know, you've worked hard to
get your schooling done and allof that, it was more, what can I
tell my friends?
Can you just send me a betterpicture of yourself so I can put
it on my WeChat moments?
And then we literally had a longdiscussion about what it was in
(02:54):
Cantonese.
And now she is calling it someLacey, which is like, Mental
health person or mental healthclinician.
Yeah.
Specialist.
So I'm like, I can't believethat she had to really clarify
that because, well, that justgoes to show how important
titles are and something myparents will always tell me is,
(03:17):
oh, don't get too involved withyour clients or you're going to
come out with depression becausethat's how depression happens.
And I'm just like rolling myeyes constantly.
I've truly mastered lookingunimpressed by having a neutral
face over the years.
But inside I am definitelyrolling my eyes hard, but
honestly though, I would sayI'll give credit to them.
(03:39):
They've improved withunderstanding mental health and
being more open to it over theyears.
I would like to say, cause of,the work that I put in for that
but.
Kristy (03:49):
it.
Shirvin Lee (03:50):
Hm, exactly.
But I would still say it'ssometimes they don't understand
exactly what I do.
Cause I think it's not verytangible, you know, let's say,
my brother, he used to be apharmacist.
And then now he's a softwaredeveloper and they don't really
understand what that is.
They really just call it likeplaying with computers or on the
(04:10):
computer all day and same thingwith being a therapist.
I don't think they see thetangible effects of it.
Whereas like a doctor, youperform a surgery that person
has cuts and bandages in theirrecovery and they can see that.
But with mental health, youcan't see it.
So they sometimes don'tunderstand it or they think
(04:31):
it's, I don't think theyrecognize the effects of mental
health yet.
Kristy (04:38):
it's, it's so much more of an abstract thing.
And I think totallygeneralizing, like Asian parents
in that generation right now.
But.
I think because, you know, theygrew up and they lived in a
different time.
They had different priorities.
So much of it was aboutsurvival.
So much of a, a was about likeassimilation, which is also part
(05:02):
of survival and things are somuch more, what's that term?
Shirvin Lee (05:07):
Was it simple back then?
Kristy (05:09):
More like practical thinking about practical things,
very in a practical mindsetrather than abstract thinking.
Yeah.
So because they're in survivalmode, then everything has to be
practical.
Whereas now us in the nextgeneration, we grew up with a
lot more privilege.
We, we now have a lot moreknowledge and we have the safe
(05:32):
space to.
Sure still be practical, butalso explore some abstract
areas.
That's why I think mental healthis a lot more discussed nowadays
and a lot more open, in ourgeneration because it's, I don't
know, easier to venture out intoan abstract world and try to
understand these things ratherthan always be in realistic
(05:53):
mode.
Angie (05:54):
I'm just gonna drop some knowledge from my psychology 1 0
1 class, Maslow's hierarchy, youknow, I feel like we're just
higher up on the tier in ourgeneration, our society just cuz
we're a little bit luckier inthat way, whereas I think it's
great that your parents are likemalleable enough.
(06:15):
They, they kind of, are flexibleenough to kind of listen to you
and take what you say to heartand you know, the showing us off
on WeChat thing is it's so funnybecause to us we're just like,
Ugh, like title that's soshallow, but like you said, it's
practical, right?
So that's like how our parents,show that they are proud of us.
They're not gonna say it.
(06:36):
That's how they.
Display their affection.
It's like, oh, I love this.
I'm proud of this.
I'm gonna put on my WeChatmoment.
the other thing that's reallyinteresting is the Chinese for
psychology, like you said, so Ispeak Mandarin, but it's the
same word, like singly AsianShia.
And I think it's reallyinteresting because she means
(06:56):
heart and they mean science.
So it's like the science of theheart, heart science.
Whereas like, if you talk aboutsomething more practical, like,
I don't know, like cardiology,which is also heart, but in, in
Mandarin sing out, whichliterally means like the heart
organ, the science of the heartorgan, but then in Chinese,
(07:16):
psychology is singly the scienceof heart because you know,
that's so I think that's reallyinteresting as well
Kristy (07:24):
you know, when you say that?
I think again, I go back to thatpractical and abstract thinking,
it's like, you can totallyvisualize it.
Right.
And then heart science, which issome late that's like artsy, you
know, it's
Shirvin Lee (07:39):
Yeah, I can't catch us going to Arts for a
bachelor's.
Oh my God.
I remember that conversation.
My parents had with me don't dothat so much judgment
Angie (07:52):
through that.
All the judgment, all thepotential disappointments and et
cetera.
And now they're proud of youbecause they post about you on
WeChat.
Shirvin Lee (08:01):
I made it.
Angie (08:04):
I made it look your moments.
Kristy (08:07):
So our show is called shit.
We don't tell mom.
And this is our first timehaving like someone like a
professional person from thepsychology field on our show.
I'm curious from yourperspective, like why do you
think it is difficult for someof us to share shit with our mom
or a parental figure?
Yeah.
Shirvin Lee (08:28):
Yeah.
And especially thinking back tomy mom, I would think back when
I was younger and even now Iwould see a lot of, let's say
white people or my whitefriends, they're able to share
with their parents.
It's like, they're all bestfriends.
They all cuddle and cry andwatch movies with their moms.
And I'm like, oh God, how do Ido that?
(08:53):
oh, like, what was the last timeI told my mom, I love you.
That's so weird.
You know?
she cuts me fruit by her food.
It works out in equal exchange.
That way it's transactional.
And I think a lot of it goesback to what you were saying
about things being practical andsurvival.
Like I think back to my parents,as corny as it might sound, they
(09:17):
came to Canada in the eightiesand they grew up, or their
parents, my grandparents grew upduring the war times.
So for them literally, theywould be telling me, you know,
that one grain of rice is reallyimportant.
Make sure you eat every singlegrain of rice in the bowl.
Whereas now we have the luxuryand freedom to take things home
(09:37):
or to not eat everything.
It's okay.
We still survive because we havea billion things that we can
choose to eat from now.
So when they have that mindsetof survival, then that means
what are the things that givethem the best life.
And you mentioned the hierarchyearlier.
So for them, it's having a roofover the head of our, having a
(09:58):
roof over our.
And having clothes to wear.
I mean, I'm sure many of us havehad 500 jackets to wear outside
in 15 degrees weather becauseour parents didn't want our
throats to get colder, our headsto get cold, because that means
we would get sick or making sureyou have enough water having
your fruit cut for you.
So you're not starving and youget your nutrients.
(10:21):
And then that translates lateron into school.
Where, oh, are you studyingscience?
Are you studying somewhere thatgives you a professional career?
How much money are you going tomake?
Are you going to get married andhave children?
You know, to them, those are allthe steps of life.
But then for us, when we grewup, we learned about that.
(10:41):
It's okay to fail and it's okayto make mistakes, but for them,
they had a very, very lowthreshold.
How much, how many mistakes theycan make.
One mistake can really changethe course of their lives.
So for them, they are more onedge, I would say, compared to
us.
And because of that, there wasno opportunity to be vulnerable,
(11:02):
no opportunity to be weak, or toget a B going back to
stereotypes, no opportunity todo anything that would impact
your survivability and yourchance of succeeding in life.
So, yeah, that means literallyno emotions.
You are a robot.
And because of that, I, youknow, I haven't really shared
(11:23):
things with my parents because Ihave to appear robotic in front
of them.
Angie (11:27):
Wow.
Like you put it into sucharticulate words.
that was fairly eloquent abouthow they never, they weren't
able to make mistakes.
And I was like, oh man, you'reright.
Yeah.
Cuz a simple mistake could meanthat's it.
Like you're gonna have ahorrible life now.
Kristy (11:44):
Like the magnitude is so much bigger.
So mistakes are justunaffordable.
Like you, you can't afford tomake mistakes.
And, and I think that comes fromthat survival mode that they
were in and it gets passed downto us because obviously they
want to protect us cuz they loveus.
And that's the way that theyshow how they love us.
(12:07):
And yeah, I, I am still thinkingabout what you had just said
because I don't think I haveframed it in that way.
Thinking about how, if I make amistake it's okay.
And we're taught that it's okaybecause we are now in this safe,
privileged space living inCanada.
Mostly safe and we're taughtthat, Hey, you know what?
(12:27):
It's O it's okay to fail.
In fact, failing is part of thejourney of wherever your path is
gonna lead you.
And, and it's just a differentlesson than what they were
taught.
Angie (12:40):
Yeah.
And almost, Shervin the way youframed it also made me think,
cuz you know, I have been to,therapy and I have gone through
some tools, especially C, B T aswell, which is really important
for, treating, the symptoms ofbipolar disorder, which is what
I have.
Now that you say it like that.
I was like, maybe the reason whyit takes us.
(13:02):
Like we have to be the onepushing their boundaries into a
space where they learn like,Hey, risks are okay to take.
So, you know, they're like, youhave to be a pharmacist.
You have to be a doctor wherethings are very concrete, like a
typical doctor, like surgeon orfamily doctor.
But then once you show them,Hey, I decided to go somewhere
(13:23):
else and I'm okay.
It's almost like exposuretherapy for them.
Right.
It goes into that space of like,look, I, when else I, your
comfort zone and I survive.
In fact, I'm thriving.
And then they go, huh?
Okay.
Let me post about this onWeChat.
Shirvin Lee (13:46):
I've had a lot of built up resentment and I still
sometimes do, but the reframingcame in probably in the last few
years when I really thoughtabout, you know, why are they
the way they are?
And it's not easy to beempathetic at times.
Sometimes I get so frustratedand I just want to be like, oh
my God, please be nice to us.
(14:06):
But I get where they're comingfrom.
Angie (14:09):
Yeah, you can, you can be understanding and also
frustrated at the same time for.
Kristy (14:15):
mean, we're all just learning, right?
Like we can't be perfect, but atleast we're in a space now where
we're not Justy teenagers.
Shevin you mentioned like somestuff that you, you didn't open
about with your mom before, andyou know, now you're a different
person, but take us back tothat.
I don't know, ancy teenager,early twenties.
(14:37):
what was that relationship likewith you and your mom?
Shirvin Lee (14:41):
Yeah.
Well, I love that.
I know the podcast is about ourmoms and that's very much true
because my dad wasn't reallyaround and still, you know, I
live with my parents because inVancouver, of course you stay
for as long as you can.
And with my dad, he is there attimes, but he's often working
(15:03):
because to him, that's the.
Definition of survival.
If we work, we have money andthat's all he's been trained to
do.
He's a robot in that sense.
And in grade one or grade two,we had this project to draw and
write about what our parentslike to do.
so I wrote, my mom likes tosleep and my dad likes to work
(15:26):
because my mom would usuallytake a nap after she picks me
up.
And that's all I saw.
I'm like, oh, she, she likes tosleep.
And my mom has brought this songwith me multiple times.
And you know, now I realize, oh,you know, she did all the
cooking and laundry and cleaningand groceries, and she has a
part-time job.
And she did all of that when Iwas in school.
(15:47):
So of course, by the time shepicked me up in the middle of
the day, she would nap.
And that's not all she did.
Yeah.
Little me didn't realize thatshe did more than napping.
So, you know, when you're seven,that's kind of all you see at
that time.
And.
I think letter grades at thattime came out when you started
in grade five or something.
(16:09):
So my parents were alwayspushing my brother and I to, you
know, get the best gradespossible.
Be the best student in yourclass.
I was doing piano.
I was doing, cello and they putme in tutoring and they're like,
don't tell people you're intutoring so that they think
you're smarter.
And I actually did mention thatfor many, many years.
(16:31):
Cause I was like, oh my God, Ido look smarter if I don't tell
people, it's ridiculous.
Thinking back to it now.
And just a lot of stuff.
Thinking back as like a, I don'tknow, seven to 16 year old,
that's a lot of pressure to haveto.
20 different things to Excel inall those things.
And to be expected to thinkabout your career, to think
(16:53):
about what you're going to dowhen you get married, how many
kids you're going to have whenyou're a teenager.
And I was truly quite depressedwhen I was young and.
A lot of it is also being in avery traditional family.
My brother, who's older, youknow, he's the prized kid of the
family.
He's going to carry the familyname on he's older.
(17:16):
He's the first born he's male.
And in China, they've had rulesabout only having one kid.
So of course you have the kidwho's the stronger one.
And my parents would often tellme that know, I know they don't
think this now, but back thenthey wished they had another
boy.
They didn't wish they didn'thave a daughter.
And that's really hurtful whenyou're a kid and you're just
(17:36):
trying to get out there in theworld.
And then you see all your wife,friends being happy.
And in elementary school, therewere three Asian kids including
me.
So that's a lot to put on.
And I was very depressed when Iwas a kid.
And there were times when I wasyounger that I was suicidal
because I was like, well, Idon't belong here.
That's all I knew.
And I didn't know that wasdepression or being suicidal
(17:58):
when I was younger.
That was just me.
Figuring out where I was in theworld and what place I did have.
And I just knew that if I didn'tdo well, it meant really bad
news.
It meant, you know, you get hitwith chopsticks, a duster,
whatever you can find at home.
And I laugh now because it wasone time I thought I was so
(18:18):
smart.
I put a pillow in my pantsthinking, oh, they won't know
that I'm gonna have likesomething there to like, make it
so it won't hurt as much.
Of course they Don they can feelthe pillow I thought it was so
smart fact that, but it's thingslike that where, you know, you
grow up having to ha cope thatway, putting a goddamn pillow in
your pants.
I mean, that's crazy, crazypants to have to think of that
(18:41):
to survive, but all in all ischeesy as it sounds.
I think if I didn't go through alot of what I had gone through
in the past, I wouldn't be asresilient as I am now, or even
understanding or being able toreframe because you know, back
then I resented now it's like,okay.
I guess that's like all you knewit makes sense.
Kristy (19:04):
mean, like, think about the amount of pressure that this
seven year old child has all theway up to 16.
Being confused about their ownidentity, feeling the pressure
from your family of needing tobe someone meet certain
(19:25):
expectations so that I can havevalue so that I can feel loved,
especially already being a girlbeing unwanted.
So I have to prove myself evenmore so I can get that love that
I want.
And then being surrounded by allthese other people in school who
just like gets unconditionallove.
Not saying your parents didn'tgive you unconditional love, but
(19:47):
it feels like you had to workfor it.
And that's a lot of fuckingpressure and so much confusion
about yourself and who you areand your self value and your
self worth.
And you have to think about thatfrom like primary years, all the
way up until I'm sure like highschool.
Probably even in our twenties,
Angie (20:09):
Yeah, even now,
Kristy (20:10):
even who I might be a little bit better than 16 year
old Christie, but like, I'm justimagining this seven year old
girl driven.
Shirvin Lee (20:17):
mm-hmm
Kristy (20:19):
And you mentioned, you know, having suicidal thoughts
when you were younger.
Shirvin Lee (20:23):
Yeah.
I, in grade 12, we had thisretreat where we, I was one of
the retreat leaders and as aretreat leader, we had to share
about our.
Childhoods and, or notchildhoods, but something
traumatic to us.
I, I don't know why we did that.
Actually.
That's kind of a little weirdthinking but it actually was one
(20:44):
of the first times I ever openedup about this because I thought
all of this was normal and thatwas in grade 12 in grade 10.
And one of our planning classes,we had to talk about how we
would discipline children ordiscipline in general.
I don't know how the topic cameup, but I said, oh,
Kristy (21:06):
oh, what a Chinese answer.
I'm sure lots of other culturestoo, and we're not condoning
violence at home, but we'relaughing because it came from a
place of pain.
At one point in our lives.
This is a shared experience.
I'm sure for many of us todayand, and for our listeners, but
(21:26):
we laugh.
It's.
Angie (21:28):
Yeah.
Shirvin Lee (21:29):
It's so true.
And I said it completelyseriously.
And then I remember the look ofshock on my teacher's face and
I'm, I don't, I can't rememberanything after that.
I just remember that one moment.
I said, just hit that.
That's all I knew, you know,being hit, being pressured and
all of that.
And.
(21:50):
I can remember as early asprobably when I was seven, cuz
that was a memorable age for mewhere I was, my parents kept
like a knife in their room and Ihad taken it out.
I was, I don't think I was everat the point where I would
actually hurt myself because Iwas too scared of pain.
I I think, no, just to put itall out there, I thought about
(22:11):
it.
If I were to ever die, it wouldprobably be in the most painless
way, like an OD or somethinglike that, where I'm, poisoning
myself in some way.
I don't think I can ever jumpoff a building or like shoot
myself or anything.
I'm too scared of the, how thepaint feels.
So as a kid, I knew all of that.
These aren't thoughts that I hadas an adult, I had the, these
(22:32):
thoughts when I was inelementary school and high
school, you know, probably fromwatching TV or the is where I
learned all of this, who knows,but.
That I think that's really sad.
I guess I, it pains me to thinkabout how I was when I was
younger.
And I had these thoughts when Iwas younger and I was often
wondering, do I even belonghere?
You know, as a female, mybrother's so much better.
(22:53):
He never gets in trouble.
I put in all this work and itdoesn't matter.
So yeah, it was a very, somedark times when I was younger
and just contemplating myidentity.
My belonging is how much work isever going to be enough for my
parents.
When will they finally saythey're proud of me or that
(23:15):
they're happy for me?
So those are a lot of thoughts Ihad when I was younger.
Angie (23:22):
I'm sorry.
It's makes my heart very heavyto hear that.
Just because, you know, like,yeah, like there's such a big
difference, like about how ourparents treat their sons and
then versus their daughters,it's like one additional thing
on, on top, right?
Like, yes, we might face kind ofthe similar amount of pressure.
(23:45):
We have the same parents, butyet we get treated completely
differently and that's just,it's very sad.
And, yeah.
I'm sorry you went through that.
I.
Kristy (24:00):
The story that you shared Shervin.
We all have our own uniqueexperiences and our own unique
stories, but there's alwayscommonality threads that we
relate to.
And I think a lot of people whohave siblings that are male in
likely an Asian background feltsimilar things, needing to prove
(24:27):
themselves, needing to work hardfor their love and feeling like
it's so unfair that I would getin trouble for something, but
they won't get in trouble fordoing the same thing, you know,
or I would be yelled at so muchmore than they would be.
And it's like having thesedouble standards and you grow up
(24:48):
learning that this is just howthe way works, you know, and
growing up, even thinking like.
Violence.
That's the way to go.
That's how you discipline kids.
That's how you learn stuff,because that's how I learned it.
And, and honestly, I thinkthat's how, that's why our
parents do it because that's howthey learned it.
Angie (25:05):
Shevin.
Have you ever spoken to yourparents, or like confronted them
about what they did as when you
Shirvin Lee (25:15):
That's a good question.
And just to, I guess, give morecontext to it.
Christie mentioned about havingto prove yourself.
And I, even to this day, now Istill have this need to prove
myself.
It looks like different thingsgrowing up.
And you know, in my late teensand twenties, that's when
Facebook and Instagram andSnapchat all came out and I felt
(25:37):
like I had to post things toprove myself, just like how my
parents post things to provetheir worth on WeChat.
It all makes sense.
And you know, even now it'slike, I feel like I constantly
have to do tons of things orhave to succeed or look like I'm
successful to prove my own work.
(25:58):
And I.
I don't really do it to prove itto externally my friends or
coworkers or anything like that.
But I do it to two parts,proving myself and proving my
parents because I have this fearof constantly disappointing
them.
And because of that, it's alwaysbeen difficult to really tell
(26:19):
them these experiences.
I've told them little ti bitswhere, you know, I've told them
some resentment about forcing meto go into sciences or how my
brother was unhappy about beingforced into pharmacy and that
there were so many other optionsavailable and I felt like they
coerced me.
You know, I wished we had sometype of open dialogue about it
(26:42):
and, but they didn't know anybetter.
So yeah, having thoseconversations was often hard and
I told them about, you know, howI felt that they treated my
brother better than I did.
I think I told them when I wasin my early twenties or in my
late teens, I haven't talkedabout it recently because I've
honestly accepted the fact thatit's.
(27:03):
Digging up a lot of hurt andpain.
And sometimes I think it's noteven worth to have that
conversation anymore and wefocus on other topics instead.
But when I did bring it up backthen, I remember they were
really offended.
They were like, no, not us.
How can, like, they didn'trealize it themselves, that they
were putting me under all thispressure.
(27:24):
They were treating medifferently.
And you know, an example is mygrandma.
She let's say it.
I must have been like 20 or 21cuz I was still in my undergrad
and I was working part-time andusually my schedule would be
going to school in the morninghaving lunch.
And then I come home and I workfor a couple of hours at an
(27:46):
elementary school runningprograms.
And then I would take a shortnap before dinner and my grandma
would wake me up when I wasnapping to help her with random
things that could, she couldhave waited.
Whereas one time, you know, Iwoke.
And I was really annoyed andgroggy and I said, oh, why don't
you just ask my brother?
(28:07):
And she would say, oh no, heneeds to rest.
And he's on his computer, justdoing stuff like, excuse me, I
am literally sleeping.
You want me to like, change thetime on your micro?
It was something like obscureand not even important and stuff
like that.
Growing up where it wasblatantly obvious, there was so
(28:28):
much sexism and I would bring itup.
Like my now I'm going on arampage.
This is honestly a therapysession for me.
So thank you everyone here.
but I remember my dad.
Would tell me like, you know,men are smarter than women, you
know, men are more successfulif, and they would even say
(28:48):
things like, oh, if you look atall the people in like fortune
500, all the CEOs, CEOs,whatever, they are always almost
men or all the scientists andstuff, the most reputed ones are
always meant.
So therefore men are smarter andlo and behold, look who has the
master and who does it?
My brother does it.
it's okay.
He's like really, really smart.
(29:12):
he knows it.
He knows, I think he's smart.
So it's okay.
But it's like, stuff like thatwhere they would like, now I'm
ki we, we can laugh at it cuzwe're older and we're like, Hey,
whatever, but yeah.
Oh man.
When you're like a kid andyou're a teenager in your early
twenties when you're soimpressionable.
That's the things and that's whyto this day, I'm going to, I'm
(29:33):
in my late twenties now, but I'mstill suffering with this need
of proving my worth because it'slike, is it ever going to be
enough for them?
Oh, that was a bit of a spiel.
Angie (29:46):
No, no, it's,
Kristy (29:48):
was great.
Angie (29:49):
relatable.
I think it's like, first of all,it's like, like, like, you know,
it's just such a, it's not evenreduced to our culture either.
It's just like such a globalthing, but we feel it growing up
and we, we like, it impacts ourday to day.
Like you say, you can't evenfreaking take a nap, so you
(30:10):
can't even have nap withoutbeing interrupted because you
are a girl and you have to gohelp your, parents, even like,
like my parents are pretty, youknow, like people who have heard
the, podcast before, like myparents are pretty open minded.
Even my mom, she was liketreated really well growing up
(30:33):
because, my grandparentsactually wanted a daughter.
When they gave birth to my momand they were spending money to
put my mom through school, thevillagers were like, why are you
wasting your money kind ofthing.
So even though, even though mymom had that upbringing, she
still absorbed a lot of,internalized sexism because
(30:54):
that's at home, maybe not, butlike outside, like she still
experienced that sexism.
So she'll say things like, oh,having a daughter is better
because they'll, they'll,they'll treat you better.
They take care of you.
And even though it's a positivething, I don't think
Kristy (31:11):
And it just goes to
Angie (31:12):
her or our parents realize that like, it can
actually be harmful because itmakes us think, Hey, careers are
not pursuing.
careers are not worth pursuing.
It's better to stay at home andtake care of your.
Mom and your dad and your aginggrandparents or something like
that, which is why like, Hey,why do you think CEOs are men?
Okay.
They got to get away with it.
(31:33):
You know, they were able to goout and pursue their careers and
maybe we weren't.
Right.
So yeah, like even, even if youthink your parents are open
minded, they're still the,they're still like a symptom of
society.
That's why I said like, no, it'snot a rampage at all.
It's just, it's so relatable.
(31:53):
So thank you for sharing.
Kristy (32:03):
that.
We don't tell mom even apsychotherapist has shit that
she does not tell mom.
Shirvin Lee (32:13):
Mm-hmm
Kristy (32:13):
we all have different ways of like, dealing with it,
whether it's like, Hey, this isactually not really worth my
time.
I'm gonna work on myself.
I'm gonna work on reframing,better understanding my parents
and then just, you know, talk tothem about other things, move on
for other people.
It's like, Hey, actually, let'sdig back on some of that pain.
And like, let's talk about itbecause it's important to me.
(32:35):
So there's no like one way orlike a quote unquote right way.
But it's really about like,processing that experience your
own stories and then see, how doyou wanna move forward from
that, with your relationshipwith your family or whomever.
Angie (32:50):
Yeah.
Not to diminish what, Shervinsaid, but like, you know, she's
a psychotherapist and you know,she still.
Shit to deal with too, you know,like I kind of wanna know what
inspired you to go into it too,like co not your podcast, but
just everything that you do,like advocating for mental
health, becoming, a therapist.
Like how did that happen?
Shirvin Lee (33:16):
So how it, I actually got to, it was after I
graduated from my undergrad, Ireally wanted to do some type of
healthcare.
Maybe nonprofit, I wanted togive back in some way, I wanted
to do work that works withpeople.
And I found this, job, and I'mstill at it now at a substance
(33:38):
use clinic.
And I worked, you can think ofa, as a coordinator or program
manager type of thing, justmaking sure the clinic is up and
running.
And because of that, I wastalking daily with all of the
clients and people calling inand asking about it.
When you see people, ifsomeone's drinking like two
(34:00):
bottles of wine every day, andthen by the end of the program,
they're drinking one glass ofwine a week and they're so much
happier and I see you smilingChristie, but that's literally
how I felt.
Every time I heard about someonejust making change on their own
accord and their own pace.
And, you know, I realized thisnow, but when I was younger, I
(34:22):
was always on my parents'schedule, always on what their
schedule of what they wanted forme.
And now as a therapist,psychotherapist and in some type
of capacity and mental health,you're able to help people.
Make change on their own accordand on their own schedule in a
way they want to and what worksfor them.
(34:43):
And in the clinic, I worked witha lot of different therapists
and doctors and I talked to themregularly and I really liked the
work they did.
So I went into school for thatand just finished school.
And here I am just wanting toshare more.
That's what led me to thepodcast too, because I felt like
I learned a lot of these thingsthat now seem common sense to
(35:04):
me, but a lot of people didn'tlearn and well, that makes
sense.
I went to school for it.
so hopefully I got something outof it and just being able to
share and have people rethink orreframe situations.
And with my parents, I don'ttalk to them about depression
and suicide and the difficult,painful moments I had, because I
(35:24):
truly think that they won'treally understand it or be open
to it.
But something I did at I've doneat home is.
Teaching my mom gratitudesaying, thank you.
You know, after every meal, I'llalways thank her.
And if I do something, Iencourage her to thank me.
And actually the first year, shereally well because of the
pandemic, I work at home.
(35:45):
So she sees me all the time andI see her, but she really didn't
understand it.
And I said, I'm thanking you foryour time and your effort.
Yes.
Maybe you quote unquote shoulddo it because you're my mom.
And that's what she says.
She thinks she should be doingthese things.
And I really don't believe inthat.
I tell her, you know, I can makemy own food.
I can go buy food.
(36:06):
There are a ton of things thatwe could do, but I am still
thankful for you.
I'm, there's a lot of gratitudethere and now she recognizes the
importance and she says, thankyou back to me too now.
So I think that was, a majorthing that we worked on in the
last two years together, livingat home.
Kristy (36:24):
Not only are you role modeling, these positive changes
in your own household by showingyou know, your mom about
gratitude and teaching her aboutgratitude, but you're also
actively talking to her aboutit, like why this is important
and why we should be thankful.
And it's interesting because my,my mom is.
(36:44):
Making these changes as well.
And and I'm gonna say, it's not,it's not me.
It wasn't my efforts.
but I'm gonna, I'm gonna like,take a little bit of, little bit
of win by saying like, I, Italked to her about the
importance of paying attentionto our own mental health.
And from that she started tolike, listen to these philosophy
(37:07):
lecturers and lecturers frompsychologists and psychiatrists.
And through there, she startedlearning about.
The importance of gratitude andfeeling thankful.
So she's now telling me okay, onlike, what's that message.
She'd be like today.
I woke up and I thanked all thegods and Buddha for keeping the
(37:29):
And you know, the sun is shiningtoday and when I go to bed, I
thank all the gods and theBuddhas again, so at, in some
level, right?
Like we're practicing it verydifferently, but she is, she is,
reflecting on the things thatshe has to be thankful for.
And.
(37:51):
And, and I love these littlewins, right?
Like it's now we are actively orpassively teaching our parents
about some of these importantthings, even if we're not
sitting down and like, let'stalk about depression, we're
doing it in our own way.
And it shows up in our parentsand they actually reciprocate
maybe a lot more than we mightthink they would.
Angie (38:14):
Yeah.
And it's, it's a different typeof gratifying too.
when you see your parents makingthose changes, you're like, I
helped, I had something to dowith this, even though they're,
you know, our parents, becausewe grow up thinking they're like
invaluable.
Right.
And then we are like, oh,they're humans to Ugh.
Oh.
And then we grow to resent them.
Like we look up to them and thenwe resent them.
(38:36):
And then we come to understandthat they're just, you know,
human beings, this whole likecycle that we go through too.
and then seeing them actuallylike improving themselves at
their age, like it's.
Great.
It's great.
Kristy (38:52):
I'm gonna pivot a little bit something on your website,
Ervin.
almost it's like a tagline.
Happiness is not a baseline.
I love that.
It, I feel like it keeps comingup on, on all of your things.
Where did that come from?
And like, could you tell us moreof what that means to you?
Shirvin Lee (39:10):
Yeah, I'm really into the word baseline right
now.
earlier this month I read, orthis year I read a book called
dopamine nation and sheessentially talks about.
How your baseline is going tolook different compared to
everyone else.
So what that means in the senseof dopamine is everyone has a
(39:32):
different level of dopamineoutput, or you get it from
different things.
And her book is more aboutaddiction.
So let's say when you'redrinking alcohol, you're
rewarded with dopamine becauseit's sending messages to your
brain to release dopaminechemicals, to be happier,
rewarded, having this highfeeling.
(39:54):
So, and it really, really standsout to me because we're taught,
you know, even if you do asurvey, you're taught that
having a 10 out of 10 is normal.
It means you did a good job orhaving a nine out of 10 or
getting an 80 or a 90 or gettinganything over a 90 means you've
done well, but.
(40:15):
You know, when I starteduniversity, it was very normal
to have sixties or 70 averageson a midterm.
And that was a huge wakeup callbecause that was, really tough
to tell my Asian parents when Iwasn't doing well at first.
And when I talk about happinessis a, is not the baseline.
(40:36):
what I mean is let's say goingback to a scale of one to 10, a
five out of 10, it might seemlike you're a failure.
It might seem like you justpassed, but actually that's
right smack in the middle that'saverage.
That's neutral.
So when I think of it this way,I think we can be kinder to
ourselves where a five out of 10is how we are.
(40:58):
On most days, some days we are6, 7, 8, 9, even at 10, we're
feeling happy.
Maybe we went to the gym for thefirst time in a while.
Maybe we had a really goodmeeting at work or some days it
might be go lower 4, 3, 2, 1negatives.
We had a really bad day.
Our favorite cup broke or we gotfired, or I don't know.
(41:20):
There's so many things thathappen.
And being able to recognize thatwe're not always having to be at
a nine or a 10.
Can be really relieving becausethat's a lot of pressure we put
on ourselves to always want tobe happy and to show everyone,
you know, we're always happy andstuff and really succeeding, but
that's not how most of us reallyare.
I mean, I'm sitting here in asweatshirt and then really
(41:43):
flowery pants.
And to me, that's the 10 outta10 to some people, it might not
feel like they're they look puttogether.
So even in that sense, thebaseline of how you feel about
yourself is going to lookdifferent for everyone.
And I think that's reallyimportant to realize, and not
only for yourself, but the typeof expectations you put on other
(42:03):
people too.
Kristy (42:06):
freaking love that like 50% is not failure.
50% is neutral.
Shirvin Lee (42:12):
And
Angie (42:12):
Yeah, that's great.
Kristy (42:14):
There are some unlearning that we gotta do.
Angie (42:16):
you know, you know, what's funny is that before we
started recording, I messagedChristy.
I was like, Hey, good morning.
And she's like, morning.
She's like, by the way, myenergy level today is seven
outta 10.
And in my head, I was like,that's pretty good.
seven outta 10.
Like I was gonna say, my levelis like seven out 10 today.
But Christy said it almost as inlike, Hey, like, I don't know
(42:36):
about my energy level.
It's seven outta 10.
And I hope that she learned alesson here.
I'm just kidding.
Shirvin Lee (42:43):
it can change.
that's an important part.
Kristy (42:47):
let's go to that conversation because when I had
sent you that message Angie,what my actual intention was,
was to let you know, I'm not atmy a game.
I'm not at a hundred percent.
I'm not like fully there to belike, yeah, let's we're gonna
podcast today.
I'm like super excited, blah,blah, blah.
Right.
(43:07):
I am
Shirvin Lee (43:09):
Thank you.
I'm
Kristy (43:10):
But.
Shirvin Lee (43:11):
glad.
Kristy (43:12):
But I wanted to like, let Angie know, like, Hey, I'm,
I'm not a hundred percent.
So if I seem a little bit off,like, I'm gonna need you to like
take over and, you know, balanceout my energy.
And basically like have my backis what I was wanting to say.
But what's interesting now isthat, you know, that
(43:32):
conversation was like, what, anhour ago?
And an hour ago, my baseline wassupposedly 10 out of 10.
Like, and that anything belowthat was like, oh, I have to
explain myself.
Angie (43:44):
Mm-hmm
Kristy (43:45):
And now, you know, 50 minutes later into this
conversation, I'm like, oh shit,50% is actually just neutral.
Like, why is my baseline ahundred?
That's so unrealistic.
That's like that perfectionismside of me coming out.
And I didn't even realize it.
Angie (44:03):
Yeah.
And I knew exactly what youmeant too.
When you said seven out 10.
Like, I, I, I knew exactly whatyou meant.
That's why I'm like, oh, I'm soI'm so glad that Sher's like,
Hey, five out of 10 is neutral.
Shirvin Lee (44:15):
And actually that's a really good point.
You guys are, you two are reallyclose.
So Angie understood what youmeant, Christie, but the thing
is we feel like we always haveto present our best selves to
other people.
Whereas it takes a lot ofvulnerability and strength to
ask, Hey, I might need yoursupport today, or I'm going to
need you to back me up when Ihave brain fog.
And I can't think of the nextquestion to ask or guess that
(44:38):
happens to me often, but I thinkthese are the type of things we
can tell other people that wemight not be as close with and
let them know what support lookslike for us that day.
And also to recognize if you'resitting at a 7 0 10, right now,
it's always subject to change.
I mean, I woke up and I waslike, oh God, my voice is like,
really.
Like it was like crackingsorority and I couldn't get out
(45:00):
of the, I just woke up voice forlike 20 minutes.
I was literally talking tomyself like 10 minutes before
just saying random things, justto warm up my voice.
And you know, when it's rainingon a Sunday and it's early in
the morning, I wasn't feelingthat my a game either, but I
felt so welcomed.
And so warmed by you guys that,you know, that changed and that
(45:22):
we're always subject to change.
And it depends on so many thingslike our environment, the people
we're with our own energylevels, waking up throughout the
day.
And I think a lot of peopledon't recognize that you can
change just because you, youknow, we hear a lot of, oh, I
woke up on the wrong side of thebed this morning, or I didn't
wake up.
(45:43):
Well, that doesn't mean thatthat's the rest of your day.
It might mean you're more tired,but you're not going to be
grumpy the entire day.
Maybe just the first hour.
Angie (45:53):
mm-hmm and honestly, I think the work that both of you
do are so important, butespecially Shervin, just because
I've personally benefited frompsychotherapy.
And like, I think it's such animportant job and it's so, so
important that we have moretherapists, especially in our
community, because it's soimportant.
(46:13):
And I was so lucky to get atherapist that was like Asian
female, grew up in the west, butalso has a lot of background
from the east.
Like I was so lucky and in, inthe work that was done during,
my psychotherapy sessions, oneof the things that she taught
me, one of the tools that shereally.
(46:34):
Gave me was like recognizingemotions, cuz like I just didn't
know how the point of theexercise was to like understand
my baseline.
Right.
So it was like situation, name,your emotions.
How do you feel right now?
And then name your actions?
Like what did you doimmediately?
And then after a while, nameyour, how your emotions are like
once you've journaled and Icould see my emotions, like go
(46:58):
from really intense to moremild.
And that was like a way for meto understand like, Hey,
emotions, move your, your moodis dynamic.
It's not like the same all thetime.
So the baseline thing, like whenI read.
Not slogan that motto that youhave the Mo I was like, oh,
that's like so fundamental.
(47:19):
And that's like really needs tobe imprinted into like
everybody's mind.
Kristy (47:24):
I'm gonna say it again.
Okay.
It's happiness is not abaseline.
50% is neutral, Shevin thank youso much for sharing your time,
your energy and your story forallowing us and our listeners to
grow with you from seven yearsold, to late twenties and being
(47:45):
vulnerable about your suicidalthoughts and that period of your
life.
We learned a lot about reframingrole modeling, and that
everything is dynamic, includingour energy and our identities
and how we kind of figure shitout because we are all just kind
of figuring shit out.
And at the end, happiness is nota baseline five outta 10 is just
(48:08):
neutral.
So thank you, Shervin.
Shirvin Lee (48:11):
Thank you so much for having me today.
Kristy (48:14):
Okay.
Last question.
Where can our listeners find you
Shirvin Lee (48:19):
yes.
So my website is shervin.ca S HI R V I N.
Dot CA.
I have an Instagram accounttherapy with Shervin and my
podcast is fundamentally human.
And you can find that on mostplatforms.
Kristy (48:37):
you listen to your podcasts?
Shirvin Lee (48:40):
Exactly.
Kristy (48:40):
thank you again.
VIN.
It's been such a great pleasurechatting with you today.
Shirvin Lee (48:45):
Thank you.
(49:18):
Aw, I'm so glad I found youguys, like you guys just showed
up on, like, I think I, I likelooked you guys up on Facebook
and we had like so many mutualfriends and then
Kristy (49:27):
whoa, 26 mutual friends.
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