February 19, 2023 • 50 mins
The man who discovered Gwen's body speaks publicly for the first time.
Sue speaks to the former police officer who did the initial investigation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why can't we find out what happened?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Why won't anyone want help us?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
It was not suicide. There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Shot in the Dark, Episode two. It was late morning.
Nineteen year old Craig Locke was on his way back
from town. As always at that time of year, it
was humid and sticky, the heat visceral and heavy like
(01:11):
a blanket. As he made his way home, out of
the corner of his eye, he noticed a green gallant
and a person sitting in the front seat, unmoving. Something
triggered his attention, prompting him to take a closer look,
(01:31):
and it was then that he saw a scene that,
in his own words, he will never forget.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
And I've thought about her.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
Every year, not every day, but every year at least
once she comes into me head.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Yeah, I've never forgotten.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Sienna, and I'm sorry to bring it up again. Can
you tell me what time of day it was and
just talk me through the event again.
Speaker 6 (02:07):
Yeah, look, I really don't remember the time of day
per se. I just remember that i'd walked into town,
I was walking back. I think it was probably around
lunch time, but I got no, I don't have a
dead set memory of the time.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
But as I walked past the car.
Speaker 6 (02:31):
I noticed someone sitting in the seat, and the rifle
between the legs is what caught me on, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So at that stage, did you know she was dead?
Speaker 6 (02:43):
I did when I stuck my head in the wind
you home, I had a look at her. But remember
that to start with, I'm just walking past and I
saw there was someone, and then I saw the rifle,
and then I am pretty much remember saying hey you
arekay mate, and going, oh, no, you're not.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
And so she was sitting like she was driving the
car right yep, yep, okay, And I know it's an
awful thing to do, but can you describe what she
looked like.
Speaker 6 (03:17):
I don't remember there being an awful lot of blood
at all. She was gray, which you know, like you
are when you're sort of got a lot of blood
lefting you. And it's always stuck with me because well,
I finished now, but I was a registered in I've
seen a few people in the last of stages, and
(03:40):
she wasn't lying on the side.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
She was sitting up right in the car. And yeah, no,
there was not a lot of blood around.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
And I looked back and think, well, you would have
thought that a there would have been a lot of.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
Blood and be I would have you know, recognized it more, Rah.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Did you see a gunshot?
Speaker 7 (04:03):
Word?
Speaker 6 (04:04):
To be honest with you, I didn't take that much
notice because she was like not that far from where
I lived with my parents, and I thought, okay, I'm
ringing the cops. So I went roung the cops because
it didn't take much to realize she was dead.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Now do you remember the gun at all? I know
it's the last time ago. But was it a rifle?
I mean, I know you probably wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Have it was a rifle.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
Don't ask me what I wouldn't know, but I do
know it was a rifle, and from memory, it was
sitting upright between the legs, the barrel end up towards
and yeah, over the years.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
I sort of thought about it, but it.
Speaker 6 (04:49):
Always seemed a little weird to me. Number One, I
don't know you'd sort of be sitting up right after
you'd shot yourself and number two, And I thought the
rifleist will be.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
Upright in between your legs.
Speaker 6 (05:04):
And why wasn't she slumped forward? All that sort of
shit has gone through my head for years, and his knees.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
And why wasn't there more blood? I suppose as well.
Speaker 6 (05:13):
Yeah, yeah, because I'll be honest, there wasn't what I
would have considered. Look, I mean, if there was a
shipload of blood, I think it would have stuck in
my memory banks. And as I'd been a nurse and
haven't worked in see it as an emergency, Yeah, I
just would have thought.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
You know, she would have been facing your right side
and her womb my understanding her gun to womb was
on her left side, so you wouldn't have seen that.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
And to be honest, I was walking down the street,
so I passed her. She was on my left because
I was sort of like in King's heading north. I
was walking along Lake Street towards the airport, so she
was on my left.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
As I walked.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
Past, her car was parked head in the same direction,
so I come up on her from like basically from behind.
So the first I noticed was as I got to
the driver's side door was the like female and then
the rifles and then call the cops.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
So she was sitting up And if she was lying down,
you probably wouldn't have seen her, is that right?
Speaker 5 (06:28):
I think I would have. I'd have remembered her lying down,
But she wasn't. She was sitting up in the seat, Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And yeah, as you say, she was great, So I
guess I mean being in these do you know how
long it takes someone to turn gray?
Speaker 5 (06:42):
Not long. It doesn't take long once once you've stopped
breathing and whatnot. But I took coppers a bit to
get her out of the car.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
I could see all that from my place, but I never, like,
up until the coroner's inquest, I never got asked about it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So did you even know that her body was in
a different position by the time the pops arrvede?
Speaker 6 (07:07):
I don't see how, because like, she was one hundred
meters from where we lived, and I went in upstairs,
grabbed the phone, called the coppers, and sat on my back.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Green looking out, waiting for the coppers to turn up.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Okay, so you know that they claim that she was
lying down. They're saying that she was never upright.
Speaker 6 (07:34):
Yeah, okay, Yeah, that's an interesting one.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So did you hear any of that at the inquest
because they had the photographs, right, I don't know if
you've seen the photographs, But she's.
Speaker 5 (07:45):
Like, I've not seen any of it. Really, Nope, I've
not seen any of it. I had her I think
it was a brother ring me and I just said, hey, dude,
I don't want to.
Speaker 6 (07:57):
Have any part of it because whatever transpired transpired.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
And it was a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
You know what you saw, though, Oh.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
I know what I saw, and I know what position
she was in, and she was not lying down.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So when was the first time you heard that she
was lying down? Because I mean, you would have been
at the inquest, right, and when the currenter questioned you,
she came.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
I was in questioned over a phone.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
My understanding. At the inquest, they just kept asking you
about the position and whether you could have got it wrong.
Speaker 8 (08:32):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
You didn't know that the photos had been taken of
her in a completely different position.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
You're the first person who's told me she was lying down.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This is, at face value, a surprising admission. Looking at
the records. It was never treated as a crime scene.
Police did not cordon off the area. Locke recalled watching
police struggle to remove Gwen's body from the car adjacent
to a hockey field where children were playing without any cover,
(09:13):
indicating there was no doubt in the minds of those
first responders that this was a suicide, which did not
require a long, quarantined investigation. The photographs taken of Gwen
by police in the early hours after Locke discovered the
body show her slump to the left all the way over,
(09:34):
with the rifle resting across her lap, her right hand
still gripping the barrel tightly. If Locke's memory is accurate,
and he says his recollection has not changed since the
day he found Gwen, then something or someone must have
moved her body. So did the coroner ask you her position?
(10:00):
She asked you her position? Right understanding was she was
trying to make sure you were sure and casting doubt
on you being able to remember it.
Speaker 6 (10:08):
No, I don't think anyone cast doubt on I don't
feel like they cast out on what I was saying.
I got the questions, I gave the answers, and that
was pretty much. Yet there was no to me anyway,
didn't seem like a like I was getting a third
degree in.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
No, I don't mean that. I just mean that, you
know when they were saying, are you sure she was upright?
Because obviously that's different from what the photos show.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Like I said, I never saw photos.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
I wasn't sent any photos to look at. I never
saw any photos. And I'm going from my own recollection
of a woman sitting up right in the car.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Absolutely, and that is something you would never forget.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
Like I said, I saw a woman sitting up right
in a car with her rifle between allege.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
And there's no way the body could have been moved
in the time that you left to the polace arriving.
Speaker 6 (11:04):
Because if I remember rightly, I'm pretty sure a copper
turned up on a bike and then he must I radiated,
because all of a sudden there was a swarm.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Month And how long was this after you'd left the scene.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
It was probably a two minute walk to my place.
Speaker 6 (11:25):
And then I made the call, and I would say
probably twenty minutes for the first copper to turn up,
and then probably five minutes after that for the rest
of them. I sat on my back veranda because we
were in a high set house on a corner and
I could see to the car, and I was sitting
there ben, you know, like an nosy neighbor.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
I wanted to see.
Speaker 6 (11:48):
What transpired and how long it took the coppers to come.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
If we assume Locke's recollection is correct and he has
no reason to lie, Gwen's body was moved before it
was photographed by police, who moved it for what reason?
What does it mean that dilemma has given rise to
a scenario that troubles Locke. You'll hear his account shortly first, though,
(12:23):
This is what Gwen's sister, Sue Cole had to say
about Locke's evidence given to the coroner in twenty twenty
one at the inquest into her sister's death.
Speaker 8 (12:33):
Craig Locke, the young fellow who found her. Now, we
only found him when the Cold Case did their investigations.
So for thirty eight years we never knew who found Gwen.
And if you look at one of those crime scene photos,
you'll see there's children playing in the field nearby where
her car is. So it had been on my mind
from when I saw the photos until I read the
cold case report. I just really hoped it wasn't some
(12:57):
of the children, because knowing how much Gwen loved children,
I can how you know, terrible her that would have been.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I know that sounds silly, you.
Speaker 8 (13:04):
Know, But the young fellow who found her found her
when he was walking home from town. Now here's the thing.
He walked into town that morning. Obviously the car wasn't there,
because if it had been there when he walked into
town that morning, he would have seen her. But he
saw her when he was walking home from town a
couple of hours later. He walked back to his house
(13:25):
the same route.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Now, the reason.
Speaker 8 (13:28):
He saw her was because he was walking along the bitumen.
From what I can understand, the car was parked up
on the verge near the fence of the playing film.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
As he walked.
Speaker 8 (13:38):
Past, he saw someone sitting up in the driver's seat,
So he said he walked over and put his head
in through the window. He said, are you right in there?
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Mate?
Speaker 8 (13:47):
And that's when he saw Gwenny. Said, she was sitting
up right like she was driving the car. The gun
was between her legs, pointing up to her head, and
he knew that she was dead because her eyes were
bulging and she was pale. Now, he ran home to
phone the police, which would have been probably He's another
thing we were told in the police reports the car
(14:08):
was on the corner of Lake and rather the street
it wasn't. It was about one hundred and twenty five
meters down the road, so he probably ran i don't know,
maybe two hundred meters home to ring up. So during
the time that he rang up when Kinbaker arrived on
the scene and declared it a suicide, apparently he then
must have radioed back to the police station and somebody
else showed up. By the time the police photographs were taken,
(14:32):
she's lying across the passenger seat, as you would have
seen if you saw the photos, lying across the gun.
So my issue at the inquest was, I'm sure that
this was probably the first dead body this young fellow
ever saw in his life. In fact, it's probably the
only dead body he's ever seen. Like I've never seen
a dead body, like, unless you're in the military or
the police or the ambulance, you don't. Dead bodies are
(14:54):
not generally something that we see. And my issue has
always been I'm sure that that would have stuck in
his I'm sure he would have a vivid picture in
his mind of how he found Gwen, and when Joe
Crawford started cross examining him and started on him at
the inquest, Joe Crawford kept saying to him, but could
she have been lying across the seat of the car,
and he just kept saying, no, nup, no way mate,
(15:16):
no if she was just sitting up bolt upright like
she was driving. So, according to the police report, Gwen,
being probably I think she was about five foot two,
probably about seven stone on the old scale, somehow or
rather managed to sit in the driver's seat with this rifle.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
That we still don't know what it is.
Speaker 8 (15:38):
I mean Jerry Thornton's view and Glenn Graham's story it
was a semi automatic twenty two. Cansafa's version is it
was a bolt action twenty two. But somehow or other, Gwen,
not knowing how to use guns, hating guns, being frightened
of them as I am, managed to sit in the
driver's seat of the car. She loaded the gun.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Being a right.
Speaker 8 (16:00):
Handed person, she manipulated the gun somehow within this very
small confines of a small riisler. She got the barrel
up to a temple. She fired the gun and with
one bullet she managed to get the exact right spot
in her temple that killed her instantly.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
The confusion over the type and ownership of the gun
is something we would like to clear up with Ken Soper. Unfortunately,
he died in February twenty twenty two in a traffic accident.
More about his life and death later. While technology has
changed the world since nineteen eighty three, Cans is the
(16:39):
kind of place where some things stayed the same. Tourism
is a three billion dollars a year industry in northern Queensland,
with a peak of fifty five thousand visitors a day
before the pandemic hit. Cans is the fourth most popular
destination for international visitors to Australia after Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.
(17:05):
It was founded as a gold mining town in eighteen
seventy six, but the real treasure lies off the coast,
the Great Barrier Reef, one of the seven natural Wonders
of the World. For decades, it has drawn tourists in
ever increasing numbers, feeding a marine tourism industry and all
(17:26):
of the enterprises needed to accommodate, feed, entertain and transport
more than three million local and international visitors annually. It's
a place where you can always find work, flexible menial labour,
just like in the nineteen eighties, along with a relatively
(17:46):
cheap accommodation and a laid back lifestyle. Now it's a
prosperous tourist hub with some big fish among them the
police officers, some of whom like forms Detective Senior Sergeant
Ed Kinbacker, spent their entire careers there and by the
time he retired, which was not long after the inquest,
(18:09):
he garnered a good reputation. But the death of Gwen
Grover dated back to a time where he was just
starting out as a constable in the Queensland Police Service.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
My initial involvement was brief, and then I had involvement
with it. If there was some suspicious concern that would
have not been transferred to investigators formerly because we were
just basically at the time officers working for inquiries basically,
which was just that looked after the top of incidents
(18:43):
these pride and being referred to investigate. So the fact
that I never made the radar sufficiently for investigators become
involved apparently suggests that to those senior to me that
the matter was consistent with the known facts. So you
know that kind of shuts up what I'd have to
say about it in for you.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
No, I appreciate you taking the time to talk about.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
In twenty nineteen, Sue Cole reached out to Kinbacker, the
police officer who first attended the scene of Gwen's death
thirty six years earlier. This was several years before his
eventual retirement. After years of effort, Sue was finally making headway.
The cold case team at Queensland Police was reviewing the
(19:30):
evidence and a coronial inquiry was now on the carts.
No police officer likes to have their work questioned, let
alone shown to have been inadequate, and it is in
this context this conversation must be considered. Both parties were
notified that we planned to publish the recording in this podcast,
(19:52):
and neither objected.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
From to my recollection.
Speaker 7 (20:01):
So I can reassure you that the information us suggest
that I somehow a link that would cause concern to
these people involved is simply not factual. I wouldn't apply
hard and fart for reals, but those in general terms.
I think gun guns are not something women use, but.
Speaker 9 (20:19):
I think that.
Speaker 7 (20:20):
Basic research says that it doesn't obviously imply someone wouldn't.
But you know, look, as I say, the Vagas recollection,
but you know, look, why for a vague mental picture
of the car on the street, and that just's condition.
But that's very bit you know, it goes.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
No further than that.
Speaker 7 (20:41):
But all I can say that the chances of someone
faking a murder scene in that scenario, that's so difficult,
you know, it would just you know, it is a
very difficult thing to do. And it's however, they've done
a broad daylight street, as I recall, which again in itself,
would preclude the fact that someone's compromise a murder scene
(21:01):
in broad daylight and public.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That is an interesting assessment. Craiglock discovered Gwen's body shortly
before lunchtime, assuming she had killed herself in an area
kin Baca describes as a quote broad daylight street. Why
didn't anyone hear the gunshot and investigate? Craiglock says the
driver's side window was down when he found Gwen, so
(21:28):
the gunshot would have rung out clearly to the houses nearby.
Perhaps the weapon was fired many hours earlier in the
dead of night, or could someone have shot Gwen in
another location then driven her car to the spot where
she was later discovered.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
I so appreciate all your time with this. Thank you so.
Speaker 9 (21:47):
Much got this point in time to do this.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yes, well, we we were.
Speaker 8 (22:05):
I think my dad did follow up with a call
after this, because we were told a lot of lies,
which until I got these reports, I didn't realize how
untrue everything that we've been told was. And the only
reason I started following it up is because you know
it's I'm sure you can probably understand if it was
your sister. It's been on my mind for years, and
(22:25):
I thought I just need to see something in writing
about what happened to try and resolve this once and
for all.
Speaker 7 (22:33):
I looked from you know, I've been doing this job
and by some period of time now and I would
not experience this is a particular time.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
I completely understand.
Speaker 7 (22:52):
In existence that would have been acted upon. Albeit I
wouldn't suggest that service was perfect.
Speaker 8 (22:59):
And I think domestic violence cases were dealt with very
differently back then, too, weren't they. Like I don't think
the word domestic violence was even used back then, like
it was, just it was a very different time.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes, Yes, Sue was speaking with Kinbacker after writing a
summary or a report on the discrepancies and failings in
the investigation into her sister's death. She was also calling
to ask his help in getting copies of the crime
scene photographs. He explains that they are in the police
archives in Brisbane and she will need to make an
(23:37):
additional application for them there.
Speaker 8 (23:39):
Yeah, I will do that thing. And you know, if
this was your sister, what would you do? You know,
like what I mean? You know, I appreciate would have
value your opinion.
Speaker 7 (24:00):
Report, And look, your concerns are genuinely helped by you.
And look, I'm a professional investigator. I have a vague
recollection of this incident, and as I say, I believe
the circumstances are consistent with what we believe occurred that
for reasons unknown, your sister went down the path of suicide. Now,
(24:20):
the reason I say that is because of the effective
circumstances how which she was found in that car, which
were consistent with the self inflicted nature of the injury. Now,
there was nothing in the investigation which caused us to
have concerns or whatever investigation or limited as how it
may appear to be, and in fact it probably was
(24:41):
because of the nature of it now, and the limited
nature of the investigation arises from the fact that effectively
it's the circumstances, is just a self evident suicide. So
for the self evident suicide, obviously the Belgium whistles docdorwing
out as you would if it was absolutely suspicious of
the circumstances. And now, from my perspective, do I have
any concerns that a missustice was done on the endswer
(25:04):
would I be foolish enough to say that in the
bounds of some some ridiculous of the circumstances, that it
was the murder of facts? You wouldn't say it was
impossible that I was in It would be extremely extremely unlikely.
Speaker 9 (25:16):
I suspect if you're heavy.
Speaker 7 (25:18):
If you were ever to get a hold of the photographs,
which is primarily what we relied on the format judgments
a circumdition in that car, it may go some way
to allaying if it is or concerns.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
It may or may not.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
I really don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Sue did get the crime scene photographs, Instead of allaying
her concerns, they greatly exacerbated them. They show Gwen in
a completely different position to how it was described. When
her body was found.
Speaker 7 (25:45):
Yeah, sentatively like this, this is so long ago, I understand,
and to reconstruct the facts to any level of satisfaction,
it's difficult, if not impossible. And the difficulty is you've
got a designed agree there has to be sedition information
to warrant the resources be applied to a full blown review.
And the fact that you've got concerns at this stage
(26:06):
of the game, what's the question of how Holly that's
a question to Sonya Smith.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Detective Inspector Sonya Smith of the Queensland Police Far North
District had the final say and did direct the Cold
Case Team to re examine the evidence in Gwen's death.
The Cold Case team has solved several long term cases
dating back to nineteen seventy eight, which means Gwen's case
(26:35):
was not too distant in the past to warrant the effort.
Speaker 7 (26:38):
But it would require a reinterview of all these people
that all that type of stuff. But that's a lot
of resources being applied to a problem that may not
be a problem, so to question if this affion concern
So what I would to just to do is going
to pass trying to get those photographs. I'll get to
you to contact you, and then what's your those photographs
so that you can look at them as especially again
(26:59):
in say or what does it submitted the amount to?
Is there some issues here?
Speaker 9 (27:05):
You have concerns?
Speaker 7 (27:06):
Do I join you with the concerns? The answers now
some organizational laziness? Or did this interesting?
Speaker 5 (27:11):
Answers?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
No?
Speaker 7 (27:13):
You know I've got no interest in the justice and
in justice more than you do. But do I believe
what's occur? The answer is no, what use that?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I'll be limited.
Speaker 7 (27:23):
Because you're quite You're quite it would be really is
I was the lowest individual in.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
The picking order.
Speaker 8 (27:29):
I totally understand it, so responsibility to carry it forward
if it was concerns.
Speaker 7 (27:35):
But as you can see, I.
Speaker 8 (27:36):
Did playing, I did see all right. I really appreciate that,
and you know, thank you so much. But it's taking
the call and talking to me. It's you know, it's
been really good of you, being really good of you,
and you know it's certainly cleared up a couple of concerns.
It's just the whole. I'm sure you know. Once again,
(27:56):
if it was your sister, you know you can probably
understand where I'm coming from.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
It is thinking right.
Speaker 7 (28:02):
Look, look, look at what you appreciate that people understress
do unusual.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Things and out of character things at times.
Speaker 7 (28:09):
I can point to many many suicides that we're out
of character, you know. So so people do things understress
that are unusual and people around them finding it good
to accept your circumstances are not that different to any
number of other people in the community who can't understand
why I loved one would choose this part and often
(28:32):
grab grasp extraws of explanation to avoid accepting the reality
that they loved one could choose to go out of
this part for whatever reason, whatever forces. But I discount
the fact that some of these will be an enormously
small minority are the product of someone faking it as soon.
But first you've got to come to probably an acceptance
(28:52):
that well, there's nothing else here that causes a red
flag that the comps shouldn't be under the nose being
dridge their attention.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Which presumably you're trying to do.
Speaker 7 (29:00):
Yeah, that's difficulty, you know, sometimes have just so much
problem accepting what's occurred.
Speaker 9 (29:09):
It was not uncommon.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
It is vastly more common than people in the general
community of things see because you see it when they
were direcommend with them.
Speaker 9 (29:17):
The family all that up.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Into someone casion.
Speaker 7 (29:19):
Yes, moign associate, but it is surprisingly, surprisingly, far more
common than is healthy.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
For our community.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Sue Cole recorded that conversation in twenty nineteen. Since then,
he has given statements to the police cold case team
and evidence to the coronial inquest. Early on, I sought
an interview with Ed Kinbacker to hear firsthand what he
remembers and what he might now recall given the evidence
that has emerged. After leaving a couple of messages inviting
(29:53):
him to be part of this podcast, ed Kinbacker called
me back.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Oh, hi, said Kinbacker. A phone call.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yes, Yes, it's Alison Sandy from the seven network. How
are you good?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Hi?
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Good?
Speaker 1 (30:06):
So, I'm just giving you a call because I'm doing
an interview. Well, I'm doing a lot of interviews and
a podcast. I don't know if you've heard. I did
another podcast called The Lady Vanishes and it was in
relation to Marion Barter. It was a case elsewhere. But
now I'm going to do I'm doing a podcast on
Gwen Grover and I just wanted to talk to all
(30:26):
the various people in relation to that. And you're about
the last one. So I thought I'd talked to everything, yeah,
everyone else at the time, So I was hoping that
I could have a bit of a chat to you.
And I mean, I know it was a long time ago,
and I know the inquest has happened, and I've read
the transcripts and things like that, but I was hoping
to do an interview for the podcast with you just
(30:47):
talking about the anomalies, and it would just be good
to have a chat to you for the podcast in
relation to that, if that was possible.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Oh, look, I don't see a problem.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
But you know, myma think a podcast looking at controversy
to angle, there's nothing controversial in this situation.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
To gilkled herself, it's that symbol.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
But so I don't want to fuel a controversy when
one doesn't exist, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah, I know what you mean. But you know that
other people have different opinions, right well, well.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well perhaps they do, but whether they're rationally held, and
it's another question.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Well, I've read, I've read everything about obviously, and there
is issues obviously with the investigation at the time.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
Right, So well.
Speaker 10 (31:27):
Yeah, yeah, look, look, look, look, no question it was
you know, a product or the times arguably and and
and realistically the passing of time since then, it's hard
to say what was done in the background that I'm
not privy to.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
If you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
But look, you know, I can chat to put the
record from our perspective, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, yeah, look that's what I'm like.
Speaker 10 (31:50):
But certainly the system perspectives, it's just you know, it's
just you know, it's just you.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Know, it's you know, the reality is that people have
got concerns that come forward the time thirty forty years
later and have sence. You know, there's just nonsensical. But
it's impossible to make any difference. But yeah, yeah, yeah,
I got into a problem. But that's going to be
my position. This is straightforward.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
No, I appreciate that. And look, you know, and then
you know, I've.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Been investigating for a thousand years, you know, basically I
joined in eighty seven. I've been an investigator. And like
I think I said in the in the inquiry, do
I have any concerns about this?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
No?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
And in my own the business so letting murderers go
for audi answers, No, it is our business. And just
to cover up, you know, resumed in confidence at the
time by whoever that's that's not the go So yeah,
so you know, I'm going to come from a pretty
strong perspective that this is straightforward.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, I'm pleased that you are, because I mean, obviously
that and that's fair enough. And look, certainly the lady vanishes.
We had an officer who was investigating at the time
was very opposing to the family as well. So I'm
used to police having a completely different perspective to the
family in these sorts of cases. But I guess from
(33:07):
my perspective as I look at it, there are certainly
a lot of things that should have happened that didn't,
the main one being of course, that the gun wasn't
provided to forensics.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Well, well, the bullet was, I don't know what the gun.
The bullet was was the gun, I'm not sure. I'm
not sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Well, like I said to the prosecutors, that there is
reality is if you're saying that someone has murdered and
taken the scene, well then you've got to create this
scenario of.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
What actually happens.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Can even go to the hypothetical password that's even possible
or sensible for someone to do it. No, Look, the
totality the evidence is she give me a suicide and
they were the family except that or not.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
You know, shit happens in families. It's a reality. People
kill themselves unexpectedly the day of the week. You know.
It is a sad fact. And unfortunately this woman took
a life.
Speaker 11 (33:57):
So yeah, I'm going to have a pretty strong, strong
view on because I have no concerns about it. If
I had concerns about it, i'd be equivocating because you know,
it's you know, who's who's actually.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Covering nobody's We're not needed to cover murderers as it's such.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
A person exists.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
But yeah, I'm fine. Just let me know whatever says.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I'm happy to talk now if you're happy to talk.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Oh, I know, I'm in the middle of something here.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I'm I'm doing a house now and I'm just some
fiberglas stuff happening at a business, so I can't talk
about okay, but yeah, maybe early next week it'll be better.
Speaker 12 (34:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
I am also in Cans for ghen Grover's anniversary of
her death on the fourteenth of October, so we could
always catch up.
Speaker 11 (34:35):
May No, I'm heading home I'm as soon as I
finished the house, I'm heading out in the drive.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Probably I'll be in Western Australia probably then.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
All right, well i'll give you a call. I'm back
in the office on Monday, but we can do it
whatever day suits you.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
So too easy.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Do you want me to call you Monday? Is there
a time that we want to be called Monday?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yes, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
All right, Well i'll make it about ten o'clock and
if there's any problems with that time, let me know.
There should be fine, okay, all right, thank take care.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
But oh, there you go.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
You have a chat. That's nice.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I'm glad about that. It's really interesting like that. He's
so adamant. And I see parallels with Gary she and
who was the investigating officer for Marion Barter as well,
that she went missing of her own volitions, just so confident,
the same way that ed Kinbacker is absolutely confident. No,
(35:26):
there's no room for error there. That she killed herself.
That's it. That is all that he you know. And
I find that I'm quite incredulous with that, because there's
no way he could know that for sure. Just in
the same way there is no way that Gary Sheen
could have known that Marion Barter disappeared of her own volition.
(35:50):
I wrote down a list of questions I wish to
put to mister Kimbacker to make sure he had a
chance to address all of the issues raised, but not unexpectedly,
when I try, I had to call at the arranged time.
He texted me saying he wouldn't participate because that path
only fueled quote unnecessary controversy for what is not a
controversial death but simply a sad suicide. I got the
(36:12):
feeling that what he told me in our initial phone
call was all he wanted to say on the matter. However,
we did catch up again when I went to Cannes,
where he gave permission to publish this conversation, and we
had a much more candid one at the time, which
you'll hear in a future episode. For the Queensland Attorney
(36:33):
General at the time, yve At Darth, the concerns around
the police investigation were not deemed unnecessary, and in response
to Sue's ongoing requests, acknowledge and in quest would take place.
The thing is, if the investigation had been done properly
in the first place. The strong conviction on the cause
of her death held by the former detective senior sergeant,
(36:56):
may not have been met with such skepticism by Gwen's
family and those helping them.
Speaker 13 (37:03):
It's one of Queensland's most baffling murder mysteries. Friends Vicky
Arnold and Julianne Lay were killed twenty years ago. But
who did it?
Speaker 1 (37:10):
There are many cold cases where the initial conclusion drawn
by the police is proven wrong, most notably the supposed
gunshot murder suicide of Julianne Lay and her best friend
Vicky Arnold at Atherton near Cannes in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 13 (37:26):
A third inquest hopes to unravel the mystery, but vital
evidence has been destroyed and a key witness is now dead.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Two inquests supported the police's original findings, but decades later,
a third inquest overturned the murder suicide ruling in favour
of double homicide by Julianne's husband at the time, Allan Lay.
Now back to the man who was first on the
scene of Gwen's death, Craiglocke, and the incredible, almost unbelievable
(37:56):
truth about his first interactions with police investigating Do you
remember when you put your head in the car to
see if she was okay. Do you remember any smells
like it was a smoke? Do you remember bottles of alcohol?
Do you remember seeing anything like that?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
No?
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I guess you would have been pretty distracted by the body.
Speaker 5 (38:15):
Oh yeah, that was pretty distracting. But no, I don't
remember seeing any alcohol or anything in the car.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
And other than her black eyes, that was pretty much
the only thing that you remember about her.
Speaker 6 (38:30):
Her eyes were sort of bulgy, and that was pretty
much all I remember about her, sort of She didn't
look pretty.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah, but that was it though, not that there wasn't
blood on her face or anything.
Speaker 5 (38:43):
No, No, I think I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
And do you know what causes eyes to bulge like that?
Speaker 5 (38:50):
Oh? I have no idea. That's a right.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
I just didn't know if it was your registered nurse background,
whether or no.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
It just stuck in my head.
Speaker 6 (38:58):
You know, there are certain things her and everything that happened.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
But have just never left me.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Did you hear anything else about it after that?
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Whyever?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Question to the inquest, did anyone ever say who she
was to you or anything like that? It was just
never never spoken none.
Speaker 5 (39:18):
I never until the inquest or I didn't even know
her name.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Despite finding Gwen's lifeless body and calling police giving them
his name, Locke was never even questioned. QPS didn't even
know he had discovered her body until more than three
decades later, when they were forced to revisit the case.
This is a major failing of the police investigation and
(39:50):
should have triggered alarm bells at the inquest which determined
the investigation as adequate. Locke lived on the corner of
Lake and rutherf Streets, with a clear view to Gwen's car.
It is the first home you would door knock if
you were looking for witnesses. If police had interviewed Locke
in the hours after he found Gwen, perhaps they would
(40:13):
not have rushed to judge her death a suicide. As
he explains, they say Kansas as a small place, but
I guess not that small, or maybe back in that
day they never talked about them when they thought it
was suicide.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
It was reasonable size even back then. But yeah, you
would have thought.
Speaker 6 (40:31):
I sort of wondered why I was never questioned, considering
you would think that you would want to question whoever
found the body, but I got number.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Would you be surprised if it was something other than suicide. No,
And why do you say that? Is it because you
didn't never see the wound or anything. But I mean,
her family believed she didn't kill herself.
Speaker 5 (40:55):
Things don't add up to suicide. But that's not the same.
It wasn't suicide, you know, I mean, what makes a
reasonably young woman take her own life? Back then?
Speaker 6 (41:08):
And why was she sitting up right in the car
and why was the rifle still sitting up right between
the legs? That don't make any sense at all, not
looking back, and at the time, I've got nothing but
looking back. Hindsight's a wonderful thing because you can look
back and you go wow, And I would have thought
(41:31):
you'd have been, you know, maybe slumped forward or something.
Speaker 5 (41:35):
And you know the rifle.
Speaker 6 (41:38):
I mean, why were they hands still holding the rifle?
Why was the rifle stool pretty much upright between the legs?
All that sort of shit, you know, you really, yeah,
it does sort of cast a shadow of doubt.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Did the police contact you after the inquest?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Not?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I'd imagine that was the last you ever heard from them.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
I haven't heard from anyone.
Speaker 6 (42:02):
Like I said, I didn't even know what the outcome
of the inquest, was you've told me.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
We returned to the place where Gwen's body was discovered
on the thirty ninth anniversary of her death Good Disease.
Speaker 12 (42:19):
Too.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
I met up with Sue and her brother Stam at
the same time of day Locke discovered her body. As
you can hear, there is a lot of traffic. It's
a main road now as it was then.
Speaker 8 (42:34):
So many mixed emotions, you know, it just in some
ways it feels surreal, Like I still to this day,
just can't come to terms with it in my mind
that this is where she died, And in fact, I
really don't think it is where she actually died. It
may have been where she was found, but I don't.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Think it was where she died. I mean, we can
feel the heat today.
Speaker 8 (42:57):
Could you imagine sitting in a car in this heat
with the windows wound up, drinking and smoking in this
heat for a few hours, Even if it was a
little bit earlier in the morning, The heat earlier this
morning was still intense, as well as the grief, just
anger and fury at the way she was treated. I mean,
(43:18):
if you look at those photos, Allison, they didn't even
give her the courtesy of setting up any type of
crime scene cover tarpole and call at what you will.
There was nothing. I mean, her dead body was just
dragged out of the car in full view of any
passerby that was going past, without any consideration for her
(43:40):
dignity or her as a human being at all. In fact,
I think a stray dog that was found dead on
the side of the road probably would have been treated
better than she was that day. And if you look
at those photos, in particular the photo of the car alone,
you will see that there were children playing in the
field that day, this field that's just behindiness, and some
(44:01):
of those images are actually looking towards the car. So
that's how the whole poorly, the whole situation was treated.
There were children playing in the field watching Gwen's dead
body getting dragged out of the car, and cars driving
pass like. As I said, it's just an absolute disgrace.
I don't care whether it was nineteen eighty three or
(44:21):
twenty twenty three. You know, surely common sense would have
prevailed and they could have treated her with a little
bit of decency and care.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
The road is a busy one and the main one
heading to the airport. It wouldn't have been as busy
back then, but undoubtedly there were plenty of people around.
Speaker 8 (44:41):
Just to assume that someone could sit in a car
for a few hours and then shoot themselves in full
view of this going on with nobody hearing or nobody
seeing anything, to me, is just utterly preposterous. And you
know that poor young man like mister Locke walking home
from the shops mining his own business, only nineteen, not
(45:01):
much older than I was at the time when Gwen died.
I can't even begin to imagine how horrific that must
have been for him. But once again, if that car
had been here when he walked into the shops that morning,
he would have seen it, because he would have had
to have walked straight past it, if indeed the car
was parked where they're saying it was parked in the photographs.
(45:25):
And as we know, when he walked back home from
the shops, he saw Gwen in the car, and he
was able to see Gwen in the car because she
was sitting up. If she had been lying across the
passenger's seat as she is in that photograph we've seen,
he wouldn't have seen her when he walked past the car.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Sue, why are you so sure that Gwen didn't kill
us off?
Speaker 8 (45:47):
There's many, many reasons, and particularly being as close as
Gwen and I were as sisters.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
During the inquest, the coroner asked if there was a
chance Suit didn't know a sister as well as she
thought she did.
Speaker 5 (46:00):
Of course it is.
Speaker 8 (46:00):
I mean there's we never know anything about everything about
anyone's life. It doesn't matter who it is, whether it
be a loved one or whether it be a colleague,
who it is. But I know how devoted Gwen was
to those boys. Those boys, her two sons were her life.
I mean I've stood next to Gwen in the supermarket
when she had the sound of her last sense in
(46:21):
her role, you know, trying to buy them Christmas presents,
And I know what she went through and how devoted
she was to those boys.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
She would never leave those boys.
Speaker 12 (46:30):
And he seems like, yes, Lave, it's a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Brother Stan is just a steadfast None.
Speaker 12 (46:35):
Of us you'll do that now, will fight us. We've
been brought up tough in the bush, and you know
none of us would have done that. You wouldn't give
up no way. She did do it. Why did she
do it here. Why wouldn't she If you're going to
commit suicide, you do it in privacy. You were thought
in the flat or out the bush somewhere. Why would
you do it here? You know, in those days this
was a remote I suppose, but you had houses there,
(46:56):
just there there. Why would you come here? And I
don't believe she do. I don't believe she's suicided.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Not to this day, police have not conducted a detailed
interview with Craig Locke. His witness statement to the coronial
inquest was just three pages long and only four brief
paragraphs cover his recollections of finding Gwen. Despite former detective
Senior Sergeant Kinbacker's assertion that there is nothing to see here,
(47:25):
we know all too well that when things don't add up,
when things have been overlooked or ignored, even after many years,
incredible discoveries can completely alter a case, change lives, and
deliver justice, no matter how delayed. In the next episode,
(47:46):
we'll take you through the police investigation, revealing a litany
of mistakes and omissions that haunt Gwen's family to this day,
and we'll hear from Gwen's ex husband.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
That's one thing I'd ask myself.
Speaker 5 (48:01):
I really can't come any different.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
And her former best friend, whom Gwen discovered in bed
with him.
Speaker 5 (48:10):
We were best friends, we were like sisters. Really knew
everything about me and I n everything about her.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot au
(48:45):
or leave us an anonymous tip at shot in the
Dark dot com dot au. If this podcast has raised
issues for you, please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen
of them at www dot lifeline dot org dot au.
(49:06):
This podcast is brought to you by me presenter and
journalist Alison Sandy. If you like what you're hearing, please
rate and review our podcast. It helps other listeners find
us special Thanks to my writer, producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's
sister and tireless campaigner for justice Sue Cole, Sound designer
(49:32):
Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before our theme music is
by Bob Kronk the First and there is a link
to his music on Spotify. In the show notes.
Speaker 5 (49:46):
When away such Swoll
Speaker 1 (49:53):
The Pains and Shot in the Dark is a seven
News production.
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why can't we find out what happened?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Why won't anyone want help us?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
It was not suicide. There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Shot in the Dark, Episode two. It was late morning.
Nineteen year old Craig Locke was on his way back
from town. As always at that time of year, it
was humid and sticky, the heat visceral and heavy like
(01:11):
a blanket. As he made his way home, out of
the corner of his eye, he noticed a green gallant
and a person sitting in the front seat, unmoving. Something
triggered his attention, prompting him to take a closer look,
(01:31):
and it was then that he saw a scene that,
in his own words, he will never forget.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
And I've thought about her.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
Every year, not every day, but every year at least
once she comes into me head.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Yeah, I've never forgotten.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Sienna, and I'm sorry to bring it up again. Can
you tell me what time of day it was and
just talk me through the event again.
Speaker 6 (02:07):
Yeah, look, I really don't remember the time of day
per se. I just remember that i'd walked into town,
I was walking back. I think it was probably around
lunch time, but I got no, I don't have a
dead set memory of the time.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
But as I walked past the car.
Speaker 6 (02:31):
I noticed someone sitting in the seat, and the rifle
between the legs is what caught me on, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So at that stage, did you know she was dead?
Speaker 6 (02:43):
I did when I stuck my head in the wind
you home, I had a look at her. But remember
that to start with, I'm just walking past and I
saw there was someone, and then I saw the rifle,
and then I am pretty much remember saying hey you
arekay mate, and going, oh, no, you're not.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
And so she was sitting like she was driving the
car right yep, yep, okay, And I know it's an
awful thing to do, but can you describe what she
looked like.
Speaker 6 (03:17):
I don't remember there being an awful lot of blood
at all. She was gray, which you know, like you
are when you're sort of got a lot of blood
lefting you. And it's always stuck with me because well,
I finished now, but I was a registered in I've
seen a few people in the last of stages, and
(03:40):
she wasn't lying on the side.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
She was sitting up right in the car. And yeah, no,
there was not a lot of blood around.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
And I looked back and think, well, you would have
thought that a there would have been a lot of.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
Blood and be I would have you know, recognized it more, Rah.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Did you see a gunshot?
Speaker 7 (04:03):
Word?
Speaker 6 (04:04):
To be honest with you, I didn't take that much
notice because she was like not that far from where
I lived with my parents, and I thought, okay, I'm
ringing the cops. So I went roung the cops because
it didn't take much to realize she was dead.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Now do you remember the gun at all? I know
it's the last time ago. But was it a rifle?
I mean, I know you probably wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Have it was a rifle.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
Don't ask me what I wouldn't know, but I do
know it was a rifle, and from memory, it was
sitting upright between the legs, the barrel end up towards
and yeah, over the years.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
I sort of thought about it, but it.
Speaker 6 (04:49):
Always seemed a little weird to me. Number One, I
don't know you'd sort of be sitting up right after
you'd shot yourself and number two, And I thought the
rifleist will be.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
Upright in between your legs.
Speaker 6 (05:04):
And why wasn't she slumped forward? All that sort of
shit has gone through my head for years, and his knees.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
And why wasn't there more blood? I suppose as well.
Speaker 6 (05:13):
Yeah, yeah, because I'll be honest, there wasn't what I
would have considered. Look, I mean, if there was a
shipload of blood, I think it would have stuck in
my memory banks. And as I'd been a nurse and
haven't worked in see it as an emergency, Yeah, I
just would have thought.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
You know, she would have been facing your right side
and her womb my understanding her gun to womb was
on her left side, so you wouldn't have seen that.
Speaker 6 (05:41):
And to be honest, I was walking down the street,
so I passed her. She was on my left because
I was sort of like in King's heading north. I
was walking along Lake Street towards the airport, so she
was on my left.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
As I walked.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
Past, her car was parked head in the same direction,
so I come up on her from like basically from behind.
So the first I noticed was as I got to
the driver's side door was the like female and then
the rifles and then call the cops.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
So she was sitting up And if she was lying down,
you probably wouldn't have seen her, is that right?
Speaker 5 (06:28):
I think I would have. I'd have remembered her lying down,
But she wasn't. She was sitting up in the seat, Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And yeah, as you say, she was great, So I
guess I mean being in these do you know how
long it takes someone to turn gray?
Speaker 5 (06:42):
Not long. It doesn't take long once once you've stopped
breathing and whatnot. But I took coppers a bit to
get her out of the car.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
I could see all that from my place, but I never, like,
up until the coroner's inquest, I never got asked about it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So did you even know that her body was in
a different position by the time the pops arrvede?
Speaker 6 (07:07):
I don't see how, because like, she was one hundred
meters from where we lived, and I went in upstairs,
grabbed the phone, called the coppers, and sat on my back.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Green looking out, waiting for the coppers to turn up.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Okay, so you know that they claim that she was
lying down. They're saying that she was never upright.
Speaker 6 (07:34):
Yeah, okay, Yeah, that's an interesting one.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So did you hear any of that at the inquest
because they had the photographs, right, I don't know if
you've seen the photographs, But she's.
Speaker 5 (07:45):
Like, I've not seen any of it. Really, Nope, I've
not seen any of it. I had her I think
it was a brother ring me and I just said, hey, dude,
I don't want to.
Speaker 6 (07:57):
Have any part of it because whatever transpired transpired.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
And it was a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
You know what you saw, though, Oh.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
I know what I saw, and I know what position
she was in, and she was not lying down.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So when was the first time you heard that she
was lying down? Because I mean, you would have been
at the inquest, right, and when the currenter questioned you,
she came.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
I was in questioned over a phone.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
My understanding. At the inquest, they just kept asking you
about the position and whether you could have got it wrong.
Speaker 8 (08:32):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
You didn't know that the photos had been taken of
her in a completely different position.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
You're the first person who's told me she was lying down.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This is, at face value, a surprising admission. Looking at
the records. It was never treated as a crime scene.
Police did not cordon off the area. Locke recalled watching
police struggle to remove Gwen's body from the car adjacent
to a hockey field where children were playing without any cover,
(09:13):
indicating there was no doubt in the minds of those
first responders that this was a suicide, which did not
require a long, quarantined investigation. The photographs taken of Gwen
by police in the early hours after Locke discovered the
body show her slump to the left all the way over,
(09:34):
with the rifle resting across her lap, her right hand
still gripping the barrel tightly. If Locke's memory is accurate,
and he says his recollection has not changed since the
day he found Gwen, then something or someone must have
moved her body. So did the coroner ask you her position?
(10:00):
She asked you her position? Right understanding was she was
trying to make sure you were sure and casting doubt
on you being able to remember it.
Speaker 6 (10:08):
No, I don't think anyone cast doubt on I don't
feel like they cast out on what I was saying.
I got the questions, I gave the answers, and that
was pretty much. Yet there was no to me anyway,
didn't seem like a like I was getting a third
degree in.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
No, I don't mean that. I just mean that, you
know when they were saying, are you sure she was upright?
Because obviously that's different from what the photos show.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Like I said, I never saw photos.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
I wasn't sent any photos to look at. I never
saw any photos. And I'm going from my own recollection
of a woman sitting up right in the car.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Absolutely, and that is something you would never forget.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
Like I said, I saw a woman sitting up right
in a car with her rifle between allege.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
And there's no way the body could have been moved
in the time that you left to the polace arriving.
Speaker 6 (11:04):
Because if I remember rightly, I'm pretty sure a copper
turned up on a bike and then he must I radiated,
because all of a sudden there was a swarm.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Month And how long was this after you'd left the scene.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
It was probably a two minute walk to my place.
Speaker 6 (11:25):
And then I made the call, and I would say
probably twenty minutes for the first copper to turn up,
and then probably five minutes after that for the rest
of them. I sat on my back veranda because we
were in a high set house on a corner and
I could see to the car, and I was sitting
there ben, you know, like an nosy neighbor.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
I wanted to see.
Speaker 6 (11:48):
What transpired and how long it took the coppers to come.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
If we assume Locke's recollection is correct and he has
no reason to lie, Gwen's body was moved before it
was photographed by police, who moved it for what reason?
What does it mean that dilemma has given rise to
a scenario that troubles Locke. You'll hear his account shortly first, though,
(12:23):
This is what Gwen's sister, Sue Cole had to say
about Locke's evidence given to the coroner in twenty twenty
one at the inquest into her sister's death.
Speaker 8 (12:33):
Craig Locke, the young fellow who found her. Now, we
only found him when the Cold Case did their investigations.
So for thirty eight years we never knew who found Gwen.
And if you look at one of those crime scene photos,
you'll see there's children playing in the field nearby where
her car is. So it had been on my mind
from when I saw the photos until I read the
cold case report. I just really hoped it wasn't some
(12:57):
of the children, because knowing how much Gwen loved children,
I can how you know, terrible her that would have been.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I know that sounds silly, you.
Speaker 8 (13:04):
Know, But the young fellow who found her found her
when he was walking home from town. Now here's the thing.
He walked into town that morning. Obviously the car wasn't there,
because if it had been there when he walked into
town that morning, he would have seen her. But he
saw her when he was walking home from town a
couple of hours later. He walked back to his house
(13:25):
the same route.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Now, the reason.
Speaker 8 (13:28):
He saw her was because he was walking along the bitumen.
From what I can understand, the car was parked up
on the verge near the fence of the playing film.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
As he walked.
Speaker 8 (13:38):
Past, he saw someone sitting up in the driver's seat,
So he said he walked over and put his head
in through the window. He said, are you right in there?
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Mate?
Speaker 8 (13:47):
And that's when he saw Gwenny. Said, she was sitting
up right like she was driving the car. The gun
was between her legs, pointing up to her head, and
he knew that she was dead because her eyes were
bulging and she was pale. Now, he ran home to
phone the police, which would have been probably He's another
thing we were told in the police reports the car
(14:08):
was on the corner of Lake and rather the street
it wasn't. It was about one hundred and twenty five
meters down the road, so he probably ran i don't know,
maybe two hundred meters home to ring up. So during
the time that he rang up when Kinbaker arrived on
the scene and declared it a suicide, apparently he then
must have radioed back to the police station and somebody
else showed up. By the time the police photographs were taken,
(14:32):
she's lying across the passenger seat, as you would have
seen if you saw the photos, lying across the gun.
So my issue at the inquest was, I'm sure that
this was probably the first dead body this young fellow
ever saw in his life. In fact, it's probably the
only dead body he's ever seen. Like I've never seen
a dead body, like, unless you're in the military or
the police or the ambulance, you don't. Dead bodies are
(14:54):
not generally something that we see. And my issue has
always been I'm sure that that would have stuck in
his I'm sure he would have a vivid picture in
his mind of how he found Gwen, and when Joe
Crawford started cross examining him and started on him at
the inquest, Joe Crawford kept saying to him, but could
she have been lying across the seat of the car,
and he just kept saying, no, nup, no way mate,
(15:16):
no if she was just sitting up bolt upright like
she was driving. So, according to the police report, Gwen,
being probably I think she was about five foot two,
probably about seven stone on the old scale, somehow or
rather managed to sit in the driver's seat with this rifle.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
That we still don't know what it is.
Speaker 8 (15:38):
I mean Jerry Thornton's view and Glenn Graham's story it
was a semi automatic twenty two. Cansafa's version is it
was a bolt action twenty two. But somehow or other, Gwen,
not knowing how to use guns, hating guns, being frightened
of them as I am, managed to sit in the
driver's seat of the car. She loaded the gun.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Being a right.
Speaker 8 (16:00):
Handed person, she manipulated the gun somehow within this very
small confines of a small riisler. She got the barrel
up to a temple. She fired the gun and with
one bullet she managed to get the exact right spot
in her temple that killed her instantly.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
The confusion over the type and ownership of the gun
is something we would like to clear up with Ken Soper. Unfortunately,
he died in February twenty twenty two in a traffic accident.
More about his life and death later. While technology has
changed the world since nineteen eighty three, Cans is the
(16:39):
kind of place where some things stayed the same. Tourism
is a three billion dollars a year industry in northern Queensland,
with a peak of fifty five thousand visitors a day
before the pandemic hit. Cans is the fourth most popular
destination for international visitors to Australia after Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.
(17:05):
It was founded as a gold mining town in eighteen
seventy six, but the real treasure lies off the coast,
the Great Barrier Reef, one of the seven natural Wonders
of the World. For decades, it has drawn tourists in
ever increasing numbers, feeding a marine tourism industry and all
(17:26):
of the enterprises needed to accommodate, feed, entertain and transport
more than three million local and international visitors annually. It's
a place where you can always find work, flexible menial labour,
just like in the nineteen eighties, along with a relatively
(17:46):
cheap accommodation and a laid back lifestyle. Now it's a
prosperous tourist hub with some big fish among them the
police officers, some of whom like forms Detective Senior Sergeant
Ed Kinbacker, spent their entire careers there and by the
time he retired, which was not long after the inquest,
(18:09):
he garnered a good reputation. But the death of Gwen
Grover dated back to a time where he was just
starting out as a constable in the Queensland Police Service.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
My initial involvement was brief, and then I had involvement
with it. If there was some suspicious concern that would
have not been transferred to investigators formerly because we were
just basically at the time officers working for inquiries basically,
which was just that looked after the top of incidents
(18:43):
these pride and being referred to investigate. So the fact
that I never made the radar sufficiently for investigators become
involved apparently suggests that to those senior to me that
the matter was consistent with the known facts. So you
know that kind of shuts up what I'd have to
say about it in for you.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
No, I appreciate you taking the time to talk about.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
In twenty nineteen, Sue Cole reached out to Kinbacker, the
police officer who first attended the scene of Gwen's death
thirty six years earlier. This was several years before his
eventual retirement. After years of effort, Sue was finally making headway.
The cold case team at Queensland Police was reviewing the
(19:30):
evidence and a coronial inquiry was now on the carts.
No police officer likes to have their work questioned, let
alone shown to have been inadequate, and it is in
this context this conversation must be considered. Both parties were
notified that we planned to publish the recording in this podcast,
(19:52):
and neither objected.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
From to my recollection.
Speaker 7 (20:01):
So I can reassure you that the information us suggest
that I somehow a link that would cause concern to
these people involved is simply not factual. I wouldn't apply
hard and fart for reals, but those in general terms.
I think gun guns are not something women use, but.
Speaker 9 (20:19):
I think that.
Speaker 7 (20:20):
Basic research says that it doesn't obviously imply someone wouldn't.
But you know, look, as I say, the Vagas recollection,
but you know, look, why for a vague mental picture
of the car on the street, and that just's condition.
But that's very bit you know, it goes.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
No further than that.
Speaker 7 (20:41):
But all I can say that the chances of someone
faking a murder scene in that scenario, that's so difficult,
you know, it would just you know, it is a
very difficult thing to do. And it's however, they've done
a broad daylight street, as I recall, which again in itself,
would preclude the fact that someone's compromise a murder scene
(21:01):
in broad daylight and public.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That is an interesting assessment. Craiglock discovered Gwen's body shortly
before lunchtime, assuming she had killed herself in an area
kin Baca describes as a quote broad daylight street. Why
didn't anyone hear the gunshot and investigate? Craiglock says the
driver's side window was down when he found Gwen, so
(21:28):
the gunshot would have rung out clearly to the houses nearby.
Perhaps the weapon was fired many hours earlier in the
dead of night, or could someone have shot Gwen in
another location then driven her car to the spot where
she was later discovered.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
I so appreciate all your time with this. Thank you so.
Speaker 9 (21:47):
Much got this point in time to do this.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yes, well, we we were.
Speaker 8 (22:05):
I think my dad did follow up with a call
after this, because we were told a lot of lies,
which until I got these reports, I didn't realize how
untrue everything that we've been told was. And the only
reason I started following it up is because you know
it's I'm sure you can probably understand if it was
your sister. It's been on my mind for years, and
(22:25):
I thought I just need to see something in writing
about what happened to try and resolve this once and
for all.
Speaker 7 (22:33):
I looked from you know, I've been doing this job
and by some period of time now and I would
not experience this is a particular time.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
I completely understand.
Speaker 7 (22:52):
In existence that would have been acted upon. Albeit I
wouldn't suggest that service was perfect.
Speaker 8 (22:59):
And I think domestic violence cases were dealt with very
differently back then, too, weren't they. Like I don't think
the word domestic violence was even used back then, like
it was, just it was a very different time.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes, Yes, Sue was speaking with Kinbacker after writing a
summary or a report on the discrepancies and failings in
the investigation into her sister's death. She was also calling
to ask his help in getting copies of the crime
scene photographs. He explains that they are in the police
archives in Brisbane and she will need to make an
(23:37):
additional application for them there.
Speaker 8 (23:39):
Yeah, I will do that thing. And you know, if
this was your sister, what would you do? You know,
like what I mean? You know, I appreciate would have
value your opinion.
Speaker 7 (24:00):
Report, And look, your concerns are genuinely helped by you.
And look, I'm a professional investigator. I have a vague
recollection of this incident, and as I say, I believe
the circumstances are consistent with what we believe occurred that
for reasons unknown, your sister went down the path of suicide. Now,
(24:20):
the reason I say that is because of the effective
circumstances how which she was found in that car, which
were consistent with the self inflicted nature of the injury. Now,
there was nothing in the investigation which caused us to
have concerns or whatever investigation or limited as how it
may appear to be, and in fact it probably was
(24:41):
because of the nature of it now, and the limited
nature of the investigation arises from the fact that effectively
it's the circumstances, is just a self evident suicide. So
for the self evident suicide, obviously the Belgium whistles docdorwing
out as you would if it was absolutely suspicious of
the circumstances. And now, from my perspective, do I have
any concerns that a missustice was done on the endswer
(25:04):
would I be foolish enough to say that in the
bounds of some some ridiculous of the circumstances, that it
was the murder of facts? You wouldn't say it was
impossible that I was in It would be extremely extremely unlikely.
Speaker 9 (25:16):
I suspect if you're heavy.
Speaker 7 (25:18):
If you were ever to get a hold of the photographs,
which is primarily what we relied on the format judgments
a circumdition in that car, it may go some way
to allaying if it is or concerns.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
It may or may not.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
I really don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Sue did get the crime scene photographs, Instead of allaying
her concerns, they greatly exacerbated them. They show Gwen in
a completely different position to how it was described. When
her body was found.
Speaker 7 (25:45):
Yeah, sentatively like this, this is so long ago, I understand,
and to reconstruct the facts to any level of satisfaction,
it's difficult, if not impossible. And the difficulty is you've
got a designed agree there has to be sedition information
to warrant the resources be applied to a full blown review.
And the fact that you've got concerns at this stage
(26:06):
of the game, what's the question of how Holly that's
a question to Sonya Smith.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Detective Inspector Sonya Smith of the Queensland Police Far North
District had the final say and did direct the Cold
Case Team to re examine the evidence in Gwen's death.
The Cold Case team has solved several long term cases
dating back to nineteen seventy eight, which means Gwen's case
(26:35):
was not too distant in the past to warrant the effort.
Speaker 7 (26:38):
But it would require a reinterview of all these people
that all that type of stuff. But that's a lot
of resources being applied to a problem that may not
be a problem, so to question if this affion concern
So what I would to just to do is going
to pass trying to get those photographs. I'll get to
you to contact you, and then what's your those photographs
so that you can look at them as especially again
(26:59):
in say or what does it submitted the amount to?
Is there some issues here?
Speaker 9 (27:05):
You have concerns?
Speaker 7 (27:06):
Do I join you with the concerns? The answers now
some organizational laziness? Or did this interesting?
Speaker 5 (27:11):
Answers?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
No?
Speaker 7 (27:13):
You know I've got no interest in the justice and
in justice more than you do. But do I believe
what's occur? The answer is no, what use that?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I'll be limited.
Speaker 7 (27:23):
Because you're quite You're quite it would be really is
I was the lowest individual in.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
The picking order.
Speaker 8 (27:29):
I totally understand it, so responsibility to carry it forward
if it was concerns.
Speaker 7 (27:35):
But as you can see, I.
Speaker 8 (27:36):
Did playing, I did see all right. I really appreciate that,
and you know, thank you so much. But it's taking
the call and talking to me. It's you know, it's
been really good of you, being really good of you,
and you know it's certainly cleared up a couple of concerns.
It's just the whole. I'm sure you know. Once again,
(27:56):
if it was your sister, you know you can probably
understand where I'm coming from.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
It is thinking right.
Speaker 7 (28:02):
Look, look, look at what you appreciate that people understress
do unusual.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Things and out of character things at times.
Speaker 7 (28:09):
I can point to many many suicides that we're out
of character, you know. So so people do things understress
that are unusual and people around them finding it good
to accept your circumstances are not that different to any
number of other people in the community who can't understand
why I loved one would choose this part and often
(28:32):
grab grasp extraws of explanation to avoid accepting the reality
that they loved one could choose to go out of
this part for whatever reason, whatever forces. But I discount
the fact that some of these will be an enormously
small minority are the product of someone faking it as soon.
But first you've got to come to probably an acceptance
(28:52):
that well, there's nothing else here that causes a red
flag that the comps shouldn't be under the nose being
dridge their attention.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Which presumably you're trying to do.
Speaker 7 (29:00):
Yeah, that's difficulty, you know, sometimes have just so much
problem accepting what's occurred.
Speaker 9 (29:09):
It was not uncommon.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
It is vastly more common than people in the general
community of things see because you see it when they
were direcommend with them.
Speaker 9 (29:17):
The family all that up.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Into someone casion.
Speaker 7 (29:19):
Yes, moign associate, but it is surprisingly, surprisingly, far more
common than is healthy.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
For our community.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Sue Cole recorded that conversation in twenty nineteen. Since then,
he has given statements to the police cold case team
and evidence to the coronial inquest. Early on, I sought
an interview with Ed Kinbacker to hear firsthand what he
remembers and what he might now recall given the evidence
that has emerged. After leaving a couple of messages inviting
(29:53):
him to be part of this podcast, ed Kinbacker called
me back.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Oh, hi, said Kinbacker. A phone call.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yes, Yes, it's Alison Sandy from the seven network. How
are you good?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Hi?
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Good?
Speaker 1 (30:06):
So, I'm just giving you a call because I'm doing
an interview. Well, I'm doing a lot of interviews and
a podcast. I don't know if you've heard. I did
another podcast called The Lady Vanishes and it was in
relation to Marion Barter. It was a case elsewhere. But
now I'm going to do I'm doing a podcast on
Gwen Grover and I just wanted to talk to all
(30:26):
the various people in relation to that. And you're about
the last one. So I thought I'd talked to everything, yeah,
everyone else at the time, So I was hoping that
I could have a bit of a chat to you.
And I mean, I know it was a long time ago,
and I know the inquest has happened, and I've read
the transcripts and things like that, but I was hoping
to do an interview for the podcast with you just
(30:47):
talking about the anomalies, and it would just be good
to have a chat to you for the podcast in
relation to that, if that was possible.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Oh, look, I don't see a problem.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
But you know, myma think a podcast looking at controversy
to angle, there's nothing controversial in this situation.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
To gilkled herself, it's that symbol.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
But so I don't want to fuel a controversy when
one doesn't exist, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah, I know what you mean. But you know that
other people have different opinions, right well, well.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well perhaps they do, but whether they're rationally held, and
it's another question.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Well, I've read, I've read everything about obviously, and there
is issues obviously with the investigation at the time.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
Right, So well.
Speaker 10 (31:27):
Yeah, yeah, look, look, look, look, no question it was
you know, a product or the times arguably and and
and realistically the passing of time since then, it's hard
to say what was done in the background that I'm
not privy to.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
If you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
But look, you know, I can chat to put the
record from our perspective, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, yeah, look that's what I'm like.
Speaker 10 (31:50):
But certainly the system perspectives, it's just you know, it's
just you know, it's just you.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Know, it's you know, the reality is that people have
got concerns that come forward the time thirty forty years
later and have sence. You know, there's just nonsensical. But
it's impossible to make any difference. But yeah, yeah, yeah,
I got into a problem. But that's going to be
my position. This is straightforward.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
No, I appreciate that. And look, you know, and then
you know, I've.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Been investigating for a thousand years, you know, basically I
joined in eighty seven. I've been an investigator. And like
I think I said in the in the inquiry, do
I have any concerns about this?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
No?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
And in my own the business so letting murderers go
for audi answers, No, it is our business. And just
to cover up, you know, resumed in confidence at the
time by whoever that's that's not the go So yeah,
so you know, I'm going to come from a pretty
strong perspective that this is straightforward.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, I'm pleased that you are, because I mean, obviously
that and that's fair enough. And look, certainly the lady vanishes.
We had an officer who was investigating at the time
was very opposing to the family as well. So I'm
used to police having a completely different perspective to the
family in these sorts of cases. But I guess from
(33:07):
my perspective as I look at it, there are certainly
a lot of things that should have happened that didn't,
the main one being of course, that the gun wasn't
provided to forensics.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Well, well, the bullet was, I don't know what the gun.
The bullet was was the gun, I'm not sure. I'm
not sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Well, like I said to the prosecutors, that there is
reality is if you're saying that someone has murdered and
taken the scene, well then you've got to create this
scenario of.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
What actually happens.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Can even go to the hypothetical password that's even possible
or sensible for someone to do it. No, Look, the
totality the evidence is she give me a suicide and
they were the family except that or not.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
You know, shit happens in families. It's a reality. People
kill themselves unexpectedly the day of the week. You know.
It is a sad fact. And unfortunately this woman took
a life.
Speaker 11 (33:57):
So yeah, I'm going to have a pretty strong, strong
view on because I have no concerns about it. If
I had concerns about it, i'd be equivocating because you know,
it's you know, who's who's actually.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Covering nobody's We're not needed to cover murderers as it's such.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
A person exists.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
But yeah, I'm fine. Just let me know whatever says.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I'm happy to talk now if you're happy to talk.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Oh, I know, I'm in the middle of something here.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I'm I'm doing a house now and I'm just some
fiberglas stuff happening at a business, so I can't talk
about okay, but yeah, maybe early next week it'll be better.
Speaker 12 (34:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
I am also in Cans for ghen Grover's anniversary of
her death on the fourteenth of October, so we could
always catch up.
Speaker 11 (34:35):
May No, I'm heading home I'm as soon as I
finished the house, I'm heading out in the drive.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Probably I'll be in Western Australia probably then.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
All right, well i'll give you a call. I'm back
in the office on Monday, but we can do it
whatever day suits you.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
So too easy.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Do you want me to call you Monday? Is there
a time that we want to be called Monday?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yes, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
All right, Well i'll make it about ten o'clock and
if there's any problems with that time, let me know.
There should be fine, okay, all right, thank take care.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
But oh, there you go.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
You have a chat. That's nice.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I'm glad about that. It's really interesting like that. He's
so adamant. And I see parallels with Gary she and
who was the investigating officer for Marion Barter as well,
that she went missing of her own volitions, just so confident,
the same way that ed Kinbacker is absolutely confident. No,
(35:26):
there's no room for error there. That she killed herself.
That's it. That is all that he you know. And
I find that I'm quite incredulous with that, because there's
no way he could know that for sure. Just in
the same way there is no way that Gary Sheen
could have known that Marion Barter disappeared of her own volition.
(35:50):
I wrote down a list of questions I wish to
put to mister Kimbacker to make sure he had a
chance to address all of the issues raised, but not unexpectedly,
when I try, I had to call at the arranged time.
He texted me saying he wouldn't participate because that path
only fueled quote unnecessary controversy for what is not a
controversial death but simply a sad suicide. I got the
(36:12):
feeling that what he told me in our initial phone
call was all he wanted to say on the matter. However,
we did catch up again when I went to Cannes,
where he gave permission to publish this conversation, and we
had a much more candid one at the time, which
you'll hear in a future episode. For the Queensland Attorney
(36:33):
General at the time, yve At Darth, the concerns around
the police investigation were not deemed unnecessary, and in response
to Sue's ongoing requests, acknowledge and in quest would take place.
The thing is, if the investigation had been done properly
in the first place. The strong conviction on the cause
of her death held by the former detective senior sergeant,
(36:56):
may not have been met with such skepticism by Gwen's
family and those helping them.
Speaker 13 (37:03):
It's one of Queensland's most baffling murder mysteries. Friends Vicky
Arnold and Julianne Lay were killed twenty years ago. But
who did it?
Speaker 1 (37:10):
There are many cold cases where the initial conclusion drawn
by the police is proven wrong, most notably the supposed
gunshot murder suicide of Julianne Lay and her best friend
Vicky Arnold at Atherton near Cannes in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 13 (37:26):
A third inquest hopes to unravel the mystery, but vital
evidence has been destroyed and a key witness is now dead.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Two inquests supported the police's original findings, but decades later,
a third inquest overturned the murder suicide ruling in favour
of double homicide by Julianne's husband at the time, Allan Lay.
Now back to the man who was first on the
scene of Gwen's death, Craiglocke, and the incredible, almost unbelievable
(37:56):
truth about his first interactions with police investigating Do you
remember when you put your head in the car to
see if she was okay. Do you remember any smells
like it was a smoke? Do you remember bottles of alcohol?
Do you remember seeing anything like that?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
No?
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I guess you would have been pretty distracted by the body.
Speaker 5 (38:15):
Oh yeah, that was pretty distracting. But no, I don't
remember seeing any alcohol or anything in the car.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
And other than her black eyes, that was pretty much
the only thing that you remember about her.
Speaker 6 (38:30):
Her eyes were sort of bulgy, and that was pretty
much all I remember about her, sort of She didn't
look pretty.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah, but that was it though, not that there wasn't
blood on her face or anything.
Speaker 5 (38:43):
No, No, I think I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
And do you know what causes eyes to bulge like that?
Speaker 5 (38:50):
Oh? I have no idea. That's a right.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
I just didn't know if it was your registered nurse background,
whether or no.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
It just stuck in my head.
Speaker 6 (38:58):
You know, there are certain things her and everything that happened.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
But have just never left me.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Did you hear anything else about it after that?
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Whyever?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Question to the inquest, did anyone ever say who she
was to you or anything like that? It was just
never never spoken none.
Speaker 5 (39:18):
I never until the inquest or I didn't even know
her name.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Despite finding Gwen's lifeless body and calling police giving them
his name, Locke was never even questioned. QPS didn't even
know he had discovered her body until more than three
decades later, when they were forced to revisit the case.
This is a major failing of the police investigation and
(39:50):
should have triggered alarm bells at the inquest which determined
the investigation as adequate. Locke lived on the corner of
Lake and rutherf Streets, with a clear view to Gwen's car.
It is the first home you would door knock if
you were looking for witnesses. If police had interviewed Locke
in the hours after he found Gwen, perhaps they would
(40:13):
not have rushed to judge her death a suicide. As
he explains, they say Kansas as a small place, but
I guess not that small, or maybe back in that
day they never talked about them when they thought it
was suicide.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
It was reasonable size even back then. But yeah, you
would have thought.
Speaker 6 (40:31):
I sort of wondered why I was never questioned, considering
you would think that you would want to question whoever
found the body, but I got number.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Would you be surprised if it was something other than suicide. No,
And why do you say that? Is it because you
didn't never see the wound or anything. But I mean,
her family believed she didn't kill herself.
Speaker 5 (40:55):
Things don't add up to suicide. But that's not the same.
It wasn't suicide, you know, I mean, what makes a
reasonably young woman take her own life? Back then?
Speaker 6 (41:08):
And why was she sitting up right in the car
and why was the rifle still sitting up right between
the legs? That don't make any sense at all, not
looking back, and at the time, I've got nothing but
looking back. Hindsight's a wonderful thing because you can look
back and you go wow, And I would have thought
(41:31):
you'd have been, you know, maybe slumped forward or something.
Speaker 5 (41:35):
And you know the rifle.
Speaker 6 (41:38):
I mean, why were they hands still holding the rifle?
Why was the rifle stool pretty much upright between the legs?
All that sort of shit, you know, you really, yeah,
it does sort of cast a shadow of doubt.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Did the police contact you after the inquest?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Not?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I'd imagine that was the last you ever heard from them.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
I haven't heard from anyone.
Speaker 6 (42:02):
Like I said, I didn't even know what the outcome
of the inquest, was you've told me.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
We returned to the place where Gwen's body was discovered
on the thirty ninth anniversary of her death Good Disease.
Speaker 12 (42:19):
Too.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
I met up with Sue and her brother Stam at
the same time of day Locke discovered her body. As
you can hear, there is a lot of traffic. It's
a main road now as it was then.
Speaker 8 (42:34):
So many mixed emotions, you know, it just in some
ways it feels surreal, Like I still to this day,
just can't come to terms with it in my mind
that this is where she died, And in fact, I
really don't think it is where she actually died. It
may have been where she was found, but I don't.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Think it was where she died. I mean, we can
feel the heat today.
Speaker 8 (42:57):
Could you imagine sitting in a car in this heat
with the windows wound up, drinking and smoking in this
heat for a few hours, Even if it was a
little bit earlier in the morning, The heat earlier this
morning was still intense, as well as the grief, just
anger and fury at the way she was treated. I mean,
(43:18):
if you look at those photos, Allison, they didn't even
give her the courtesy of setting up any type of
crime scene cover tarpole and call at what you will.
There was nothing. I mean, her dead body was just
dragged out of the car in full view of any
passerby that was going past, without any consideration for her
(43:40):
dignity or her as a human being at all. In fact,
I think a stray dog that was found dead on
the side of the road probably would have been treated
better than she was that day. And if you look
at those photos, in particular the photo of the car alone,
you will see that there were children playing in the
field that day, this field that's just behindiness, and some
(44:01):
of those images are actually looking towards the car. So
that's how the whole poorly, the whole situation was treated.
There were children playing in the field watching Gwen's dead
body getting dragged out of the car, and cars driving
pass like. As I said, it's just an absolute disgrace.
I don't care whether it was nineteen eighty three or
(44:21):
twenty twenty three. You know, surely common sense would have
prevailed and they could have treated her with a little
bit of decency and care.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
The road is a busy one and the main one
heading to the airport. It wouldn't have been as busy
back then, but undoubtedly there were plenty of people around.
Speaker 8 (44:41):
Just to assume that someone could sit in a car
for a few hours and then shoot themselves in full
view of this going on with nobody hearing or nobody
seeing anything, to me, is just utterly preposterous. And you
know that poor young man like mister Locke walking home
from the shops mining his own business, only nineteen, not
(45:01):
much older than I was at the time when Gwen died.
I can't even begin to imagine how horrific that must
have been for him. But once again, if that car
had been here when he walked into the shops that morning,
he would have seen it, because he would have had
to have walked straight past it, if indeed the car
was parked where they're saying it was parked in the photographs.
(45:25):
And as we know, when he walked back home from
the shops, he saw Gwen in the car, and he
was able to see Gwen in the car because she
was sitting up. If she had been lying across the
passenger's seat as she is in that photograph we've seen,
he wouldn't have seen her when he walked past the car.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Sue, why are you so sure that Gwen didn't kill
us off?
Speaker 8 (45:47):
There's many, many reasons, and particularly being as close as
Gwen and I were as sisters.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
During the inquest, the coroner asked if there was a
chance Suit didn't know a sister as well as she
thought she did.
Speaker 5 (46:00):
Of course it is.
Speaker 8 (46:00):
I mean there's we never know anything about everything about
anyone's life. It doesn't matter who it is, whether it
be a loved one or whether it be a colleague,
who it is. But I know how devoted Gwen was
to those boys. Those boys, her two sons were her life.
I mean I've stood next to Gwen in the supermarket
when she had the sound of her last sense in
(46:21):
her role, you know, trying to buy them Christmas presents,
And I know what she went through and how devoted
she was to those boys.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
She would never leave those boys.
Speaker 12 (46:30):
And he seems like, yes, Lave, it's a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Brother Stan is just a steadfast None.
Speaker 12 (46:35):
Of us you'll do that now, will fight us. We've
been brought up tough in the bush, and you know
none of us would have done that. You wouldn't give
up no way. She did do it. Why did she
do it here. Why wouldn't she If you're going to
commit suicide, you do it in privacy. You were thought
in the flat or out the bush somewhere. Why would
you do it here? You know, in those days this
was a remote I suppose, but you had houses there,
(46:56):
just there there. Why would you come here? And I
don't believe she do. I don't believe she's suicided.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Not to this day, police have not conducted a detailed
interview with Craig Locke. His witness statement to the coronial
inquest was just three pages long and only four brief
paragraphs cover his recollections of finding Gwen. Despite former detective
Senior Sergeant Kinbacker's assertion that there is nothing to see here,
(47:25):
we know all too well that when things don't add up,
when things have been overlooked or ignored, even after many years,
incredible discoveries can completely alter a case, change lives, and
deliver justice, no matter how delayed. In the next episode,
(47:46):
we'll take you through the police investigation, revealing a litany
of mistakes and omissions that haunt Gwen's family to this day,
and we'll hear from Gwen's ex husband.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
That's one thing I'd ask myself.
Speaker 5 (48:01):
I really can't come any different.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
And her former best friend, whom Gwen discovered in bed
with him.
Speaker 5 (48:10):
We were best friends, we were like sisters. Really knew
everything about me and I n everything about her.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot au
(48:45):
or leave us an anonymous tip at shot in the
Dark dot com dot au. If this podcast has raised
issues for you, please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen
of them at www dot lifeline dot org dot au.
(49:06):
This podcast is brought to you by me presenter and
journalist Alison Sandy. If you like what you're hearing, please
rate and review our podcast. It helps other listeners find
us special Thanks to my writer, producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's
sister and tireless campaigner for justice Sue Cole, Sound designer
(49:32):
Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before our theme music is
by Bob Kronk the First and there is a link
to his music on Spotify. In the show notes.
Speaker 5 (49:46):
When away such Swoll
Speaker 1 (49:53):
The Pains and Shot in the Dark is a seven
News production.
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