February 26, 2023 • 61 mins
We examine in detail the police investigation into Gwen's death and hear from several people who knew Gwen well in the months and years leading up to her death.
Music:
Theme - Graveyard Song - Bob Cronk 1
For this and more of Bob's music, please click here:
https://open.spotify.com/album/2lb7R3Xgx4Q0gzLZ00pDgJ
Click here for for a complete list of music used in this episode:
https://www.shotinthedark.com.au/episode-three-credits/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot AU.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why can't we find out what happened? Why won't anyone
help us?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It was not suicide, There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Shot in the Dark episode three h Hello, Bet, it's
Alison Sandy on the Seven network.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
How are you very well? Thank you?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
This is one of the last people who saw Gwen
Grover alive.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yeah, I was working with us.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Her former best friend Elizabeth or Bette Grover, who had
a relationship with Duncan Grover, Gwen's husband who Bet later
web you might recall the extraordinary betrayal as recounted by
Gwen's sister Sue Cole.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yes, Gwen, Gwen separated from Duncan Grover, she came back
to Barbarbara in New South Wales and I was living
back there with one of my sisters. I'd got my
first job at the time, and she told me and
told my sisters that the reason she had left was
that she came home from work unexpectedly and caught Duncan
(01:47):
in bed with her best friend, a woman named Bet,
and she packed the boys up in the car and
she fled back down to her sisters because it was
really the only place that she had to go.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Accepted it, and Duncan say, that is flat out wrong.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Your friends, you know, was helping her. We never went
not being.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Friends, I asked Bet when she started seeing Duncan romantically,
Because another of Gwen's friends from the time, Sharon mcadee,
suggested Gwen only found out about her estranged husband and
her best friend shortly before she allegedly took her own life.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Why been down chairs living when she come back here?
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So when she found you in Duncan together, that was
a lot earlier in the piece.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Yeah, Harry Ken, we're going like Walfire has. Duncan and
I started having a relationship until then, we never I don't.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Know why there's a confusion in the statements and sorry, yeah,
because I was trying to figure it out. I figured
given that she was moving on with Gwen and Duncan
was living with you, that she knew a lot earlier
about the relationship.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Well, she knew Duncan was living with you. She had
already broken, they'd broken up made Yeah, no fair enough.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Would you consider that you were her best friend?
Speaker 4 (03:06):
We were best friends. We were a lot of sisters really,
you know, she knew everything about me and I knew
everything about her, and we just talked openly, intendedly to
each other. But Duncan and I never started a relationship
until her par and kid got together.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
This is at odds with the time frame provided by
Gwen's family, who say her sister learned of their relationship
in nineteen eighty, which is why she fled to Bogle Briye.
But moving on, are you able to tell me about
the last time you saw her.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
We just unpacked all the stuff we got and put
into a new flat she got near the Can's base,
and we agreed to meet up next morning at nine o'clock.
I had the boys, David and I had them, and
I had to get them off to school with my
five kids, and yeah, then I went over to meet
(03:58):
her and she never turned out. And I just went
to all her friends and none of them could give
a damn about the girl, which made me really really angry.
The only time they had anything to do with it, it
was when they were drinking with her and it was
just so so mean. She needed help. She was crying
out for help. She loved that guy she with. She
(04:20):
told uncle she never loved him.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Yeah, I don't know what happened between her and ten
doing alcohol was a big, big part of it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That claims Gwen was a full blown alcoholic, mostly a
happy drunk, but occasionally angry.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
There was just too much alcohol. It was just alcohol. Alcohol.
Wherever you looked, it was alcohol. She couldn't get up
in the morning without having alcohol. She was alcoholic.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
They said that she only drank on weekends. No, okay,
so you're saying that it was all the time.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Oh, I've seen I've seen her drinking.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
That says Gwen did not work as a cleaner every day,
meaning most days she was drinking. However, there are mixed opinions,
particularly as she wouldn't have been able to afford to
drink so often.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
The heavy drinking came a lot later when she moved
to Cans. I think because all her friends used to
all drink every weekend. You know, they go through severy
eight carts every weekend.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
The other confusing factor is like, how if she was
drunk she could load the gun and with a left hand.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
And you know, I've got no idea, mate, because yeah,
I've never loaded again, I've never fired again. I wouldn't
have a flu ou mode touch. So I don't know
what or how she done it.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Duncan did tell me she fighted one somewhere, but she
told me she absolutely hates guns.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
She confirms it was Gwen who broke off the relationship
with Can Soper, and she helped Gwen move her two
young boys and their belongings into a flat which needed
a lot of work.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Uncle dropped the boy's home. Now, when we were finished
with the flat, putting all the stuff inside, I left there.
And wherever she went from there, I got no idea
whether she stayed there or not, you know, because later
on she went to Paul and Lynn's place and she
wanted to stay there, and Paul cracked her metal because
(06:22):
she was drunk as and he told her to get
me in no uncertain terms, and that really broke her up.
I think that straw that broke the Kebel's back. And
they have been lifelong drinking friends as long as dunkening.
When we're in cans.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Cracked mental is Australian slang for getting angry. Betty was
saying that Gwen's friend Paul was upset, possibly because she
was drunk, and told her to leave, despite Paul and
his wife Lynn being close friends of hers. Paul and
Lynn were currently the last people to see Gwen alive.
(07:03):
The Kirna found their alleged rejection of her may have
contributed to her depression and driven her over the edge,
something as siblings think is far fetched and we agree.
Remember also, the Karena put a lot of stock in Gwen,
apparently being upset about her breakup with Duncan. She loved
(07:24):
her boys though, right, hell so in every decision she
seemed to have made was in their best interest. How
could killing herself be in the best interests of the boys.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Well, ever, I don't know. I can't intwer that mote.
I can't answer that.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Did she ever strike you as being suicidal before?
Speaker 6 (07:42):
No?
Speaker 4 (07:44):
She was dead against it.
Speaker 7 (07:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
And she wasn't a gun user either.
Speaker 9 (07:47):
Was she. No?
Speaker 4 (07:48):
She hated and like me, you know, my brother shot
himself and you know, I just I won't have guns.
Duncan's got guns, but I won't go near them or
look at them. Or anything. I hate them.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Bet and Duncan, who already had about five other children
living with them, including some under foster care, took Gwen's
boys and David into their home after she allegedly took
her own life, something Bett thought she would never do.
Given the discrepancies about the time Gwen found out about
Bett and Duncan's relationship, I rang Sharon Macadey, whose testimony
(08:27):
was relied upon so much in the.
Speaker 8 (08:29):
Inquest Hello Sharon Alison San.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
She said in no uncertain terms that she didn't want
to be part of the podcast. However, during our brief discussion,
Sharon did concede she got the timing wrong in relation
to Gwen finding out about Duncan and Bet. This coincides
with what Gwen's sisters said that finding Duncan in bed
with Bet was the trigger for Gwen to leave Cans
(08:55):
and drive all the way back to Boglebry more than
two years prior when Gwen and Sue moved in together
in the early nineteen eighties, and Sue is adamant she
certainly wasn't piney for her estranged husband.
Speaker 10 (09:09):
I lived with Gwen for the two years that she
was in New South Wales from nineteen eighty to the
beginning of nineteen eighty two, so I saw the condition
she was in when she arrived. Gwen was a fighter,
so I would say she was more angry and furious
than anything. And this whole narrative that was spun at
(09:32):
the inquest about she pined for him for two years
and that's why she came back to Cannes. To me,
that's utter nonsense, because Duncan Grover's mother asked Gwen when
she arrived in New South Wales is the marriage over?
Is there any chance of reconciliation? And I was there
and heard this conversation. Gwen said it's absolutely over, and
her exact words were, I would never go back near
(09:53):
that be again. So she had no intention of coming
back up here and hope you know that there'd be
any reconciliation with Duncan Grover at all.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
But Sharon remains convinced Gwen took her own life, even
though her father, mick O'sheay and uncle Paul Lane, who
he mentioned earlier as one of the last known people
to see Gwen alive, didn't believe that, and they were
much better friends with Gwen than Sharon.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
Was.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Sharon says this in her witness statement dated twenty fourth
of April twenty twenty one.
Speaker 11 (10:28):
My father always thought Gwen didn't kill herself and that
someone should look into it. For many years, he would
say that he could not accept that Gwen would shoot herself.
He never really gave me a reason why, but I
do recall that based on the amount of beer bottles
in the car, he doubted Gwen could have drunk them all,
implying there was more than one person in the car.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
It was Sharon's father, Mick, who picked up Gwen's car
after police were finished with it, as he had organized
its purchase for her in the first place.
Speaker 11 (10:55):
The sentiment was generally shared in the family, and Uncle
Paul said he couldn't accept Gwen would kill her I've
never spoken about this to police before.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
In her witness statement, Sharon also recalled the last time
she saw Gwen.
Speaker 11 (11:08):
The day before Gwen died. I went to Gwen's new
place with my husband and my then young child. We
arrived about mid morning and stayed till about nine or
ten pm that night. I was helping Gwen move out
of Ken Soaper's house and into the new place. At
the esplanade. Gwen's boys weren't there and she'd left them
with Duncan while she was moving. We used our Combie
(11:29):
van and Gwen's car. We had to do about two
to three runs. I recall the place was a real mess,
but Gwen said it was going to be okay and
she could fix the place up. I recall Gwen didn't
have much money and the place looked really cheap.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Sharon then went on to say her old friend was
very distraught and wanted her to stay longer, even though
it was late when they had finished.
Speaker 11 (11:52):
During the day when we were moving, she was visibly
devastated and would cough and vomit regularly. This went on
throughout the day right up until when we left. Before
we left, Gwen cracked open her first beer for the
day and had it in a stubby cooler. I would
say that Gwen would have only had a six pack
in the house as she didn't have much money and
didn't buy beer by the carton.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Now we turned to the initial police investigation. Friday, October fourteenth,
nineteen eighty three. It was sometime after lunch, about twenty
minutes after Craig Locke had called Triple zero to report
he'd found the body of a woman in a car
with a rifle a motorcycle. Copp arrived first. Several other
(12:42):
police arrived within minutes, among them Junior Constable Ed Kinbacker,
who had joined the Queensland Police Service just two years earlier.
Here is young Constable Kinbacker's written report, called a Form
four report, which has space for a brief summation of
the circumstances of death. He wrote it later on the
same day Gwen was found.
Speaker 7 (13:03):
Report concerning death by member of the Police Force. Gwen
Lorraine Grover, pensioner by whom identified Duncan Roy Grover. Time
death reported to member of the Police force approximately one pm.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Gwen's estranged husband Duncan, identified her body at the Cannes Hospital, Morgue.
He told the cold case team in his witness statement
that the police arrived at his home just after he
finished work at four pm and he went with them
straightway to see Gwen's body. They had wrapped up the
crime scene in about two hours, and Constable Kinbacker stated
(13:40):
the following in his report.
Speaker 7 (13:44):
At some time on the morning of the fourteenth of
the tenth, nineteen eighty three, one Gwen Lorraine Grover was
shot in her vehicle at the intersection of Lake and
Rutherford Streets, Cans. Suicide is suspected. When she was last
seen by her strange husband the evening of the thirteenth
of the tenth eighty three, at approximately seven thirty pm.
(14:05):
She seemed to be in good spirits but was upset
over the breakup of a relationship with her boyfriend. The
two were contemplating marriage. The deceased had just moved into
a new residence and had decided to start a new
life away from her boyfriend. Inside the vehicle in which
she was found was a number of empty studies. Also,
there was a large amount of cigarette ash on the
floor of the vehicle, suggesting she may have sat in
(14:27):
the vehicle thinking sometime prior to committing the act. Careful
attention should be given to the angle of entry of
the bullet, as it may perhaps be critical to the
direction of the investigation. Police attempted to interview her boyfriend, however,
he could not be located. Inquiries are continuing immediately.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Constable Kimbacker has jumped to some big conclusions. He states
Gwen was shot sometime in the morning, something he could
not possibly have known and for which there was no evidence.
He instantly suspects suicide. You will hear more about the
cigarette ash, the alcohol and the gun later. There is
no mention that Gwen left behind two young sons. It
(15:11):
is worth remembering that most police officers in Australia in
nineteen eighty three did not ever come across a woman
who had fatally shot herself because it was and is
extremely rare. However, a majority of police investigating homicides have
encountered a woman shot dead, almost always by their male partner.
(15:31):
Also bear in mind the police handbook at the time
instructed certain procedures must be followed, even for a suspected suicide,
and it's clear they weren't, but we'll get to that later.
Speaker 12 (15:46):
I'm a sworn member of the Queensland Police Service. I
was sworn in as a police officer in July nineteen
eighty one and my registered number is four double eight six.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Here is how ed Kinbacker described his initial investigation in
a statement given to the Police Cold Case Investigation Team
in September twenty twenty.
Speaker 12 (16:04):
I recall that on the fourteenth of October nineteen eighty three,
I was working as a uniform officer at Cann's inquiries.
My duties included attending to coroners matters, including the investigation
of sudden deaths. When we were called to Lake Street cans.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
A police photographer took just a handful of shots of
the scene, where usually they would take dozens, sometimes hundreds.
Speaker 12 (16:27):
From review of the photographs, I recall the vehicle was
located in a relatively isolated area in Lake Street, near
the hockey fields. The vehicle was parked on the side
of the road on a dirt verge. There was nothing
unusual about how it was parked other than the hockey field.
The location is pretty much bushland. The vehicle was a
couple of one hundred meters away from any houses. I
(16:48):
recall the vehicle was a small sedan. The windows were
up and the doors were closed. I observed the female
in the front of the vehicle and identified she was deceased.
She was slumped as shown and photos. I recall quite
a lot of cigarette ash inside the car. I'm aware
that this female was subsequently identified as Miss Gwen Grover.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
This account alone calls into question the assumptions made in
this case. Kim Baker says the car windows were up
the doors closed and Gwen was slumped down. Craig Locke,
the man who found Gwen's body, gave sworn evidence the
driver's side window was down and Gwen was sitting up,
which is why he initially leaned into the window to
(17:32):
ask if she was all right. One of them must
be wrong. If the initial investigation was lacking, what followed
was even worse. The key piece of evidence in Gwen's
death was, of course, the weapon, which allegedly calls the
fatal wound. The bullet was removed from Gwen's head and
(17:52):
sent to the coroner. The gun, of course, was also
sent to ballistics analysis. At least it should have been.
Speaker 12 (18:00):
I can't recall what happened to the firearm when it
was removed from Lake Street.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Ed Kinbacker does not know what happened to the gun
to this day, no one does. It exists. We can
see it clearly in the crime scene photographs, laying across
Gwen's lap, her right hand tightly gripping the barrel. Perhaps
the answer is in the former constable's written notebook.
Speaker 12 (18:25):
The Cannes Police Station maintains a notebook register which has
records going back to nineteen eighty I have searched my
own record holdings and caused this register to be searched
in an attempt to locate my contemporaneous nineteen eighty three
official police notebook. However, it has been unable to be located,
and in fact it appears that very few notebooks exist
(18:46):
on that register from the early nineteen eighties. I can
offer no explanation as to why my notebook from that
period is not held by Cann's police station. I have
no independent recollection. However, I can only presume that I
return the book to the thenice and cannot comment on
what happened to it, as the storage and retention of
these items were the responsibility of others more senior to
(19:09):
me with the department at that time.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Like the rifle Constable, Kinbacker's notebook vanished some time after
the investigation. Whenever questioned or interviewed, ed Kinbacker is keen
to point out how junior he was at the time.
Another key part of the initial investigation was interviewing anyone
who last saw gwhen alive, and those close to her.
(19:35):
Top of the list always with the firearm death of
a woman is the partner. Here is what ed Kinbacker
told the Cold Case Team in twenty twenty.
Speaker 12 (19:45):
I have been shown and read a copy of a
type witness statement in the name of Kenneth Cyril Soper,
dated thirty first of October nineteen eighty three. I have
observed that my signature is above E. K. Kinbacker. I
do not recall taking this statement from.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
S Here is a statement Kenneth Cyril Soper gave to
police on October thirty first, nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 13 (20:11):
I knew the deceased Gwen Lorraine Drover. I'd been living
in a de fact our relationship with her for a
period of six months. I last saw her on the
afternoon of Wednesday, the twelfth of October nineteen eighty three,
at approximately six pm. At the time, the deceased was
in the process of moving her belongings from my residence
at forty Sturt Street, Cannes. We had had an argument
(20:33):
and the relationship had broken down. She did not at
this time appear particularly emotionally disturbed, and she gave no
indication of a future actions. On the morning of the
thirty first of the tenth eighty three, I was shown
by police a rifle which was used by Gwen in
the suicide. It was my rifle, and I'd last seen
(20:54):
it in a spare bedroom of my house. On the
morning of Friday, the fourteenth of October nineteen eighty three,
I noticed when I arose that my bedroom cupboard had
been opened sometime during the night, and a point three
two five caliber rifle had been taken out of the
cupboard and leant against it. I assumed at this time
that at some time during the night I had opened
(21:14):
the cupboard and removed the rifle for unremembered reasons. On
the morning of Monday, the seventeenth of October, I was
informed by police of the deceased suicide. It was then
that I realized that the point three twenty five caliber
rifle which had been removed from my cupboard on the
fourteenth of October, must have been moved by the deceased
while she was searching for either the rifle or ammunition
(21:37):
for it.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
This doesn't make sense. We assume he's referring to his
other rifle, the one Gwen was shot with. Also the
claim it was a point three to two five rifle.
We'll get back to that soon.
Speaker 13 (21:50):
The rifle was located by the deceased in the spare
bedroom and I believe the ammunition was obtained from the
glove box of my car. The car is open at
all times when it's parked in my yard. Only after
being informed by police did I notice the articles. At
no time did the decease give any indication of her intentions,
(22:11):
and to the best of my knowledge, she had not
threatened or attempted anything of this nature previously.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
As you heard, it appears that Ken was never even
considered a person of interest in Gwen's death. The statement
is confusing and there seems to be a big chunk missing.
There have been attempts to explain this, but nobody really
knows for sure why. Here is how ed Kinbacker summed
it up to the cold case team, and this explanation
(22:38):
was accepted as reasonable.
Speaker 12 (22:41):
I can see that the statement is poor. Soper refers
to a gun in the house, which can be readily
inferred not to be the gun located in the car
with the deceased. I believe this is simply a matter
of poor wording, and the rifle located in the car
not having been particularized, which would have been detailed in
the exhibit book, which is no longer availed to review.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
This is verbatim from kim Backer's statement.
Speaker 12 (23:03):
It has been drawn to my attention that the final
paragraph on the first page does not appear to carry
on to the second page.
Speaker 13 (23:10):
Only after being informed by police did I notice the articles.
Speaker 12 (23:14):
I cannot account for this other than the statement was
produced on a typewriter, and there was likely a pause
whilst resetting the next page that impeded the flow of
the statement. I am aware that an adendum statement has
been taken from Soper by Detective Senior Constable Adam Dennian
on eighteenth of August twenty twenty, and that Sober recalls
(23:35):
that his statement was taken by a uniform female police officer.
I cannot account for Soper's recollection as a result of
my involvement in this investigation. I am familiar with the
names Ken Soper and Duncan Grover. I do not recall
having ever known them personally, and any interactions that I
may have ever had with them at any time would
more than certainly be only in my official capacity as
(23:57):
a police officer.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
This is crucial for several reasons. First, Constable Kinbacker and
the police waited seventeen days to interview Ken Soper from
whom Gwen had just separated after an argument. Two weeks
and three days passed before they decided to ask him
some questions. When they did, it wasn't to ask if
(24:23):
he was involved in her death. It was to tell
him that Gwen had killed herself. Here's where it gets
really messy. Ken Soper was interviewed by the cold case
team in August twenty twenty, and he gave this account
of the day of Gwen's death and the day's following.
Speaker 13 (24:41):
It was a day or so after Gwen's death Saturday,
the fifteenth of October nineteen eighty three or Sunday the
sixteenth of October nineteen eighty three. I heard from my
mother that Gwen was dead, and so I went to
Dale Kendall's house to ask her whether it was true.
Dale was a police officer I knew at the time,
and the only police officer I knew on a person basis.
Dale told me that she didn't know about Gwen, and
(25:03):
then she contacted the police station and confirmed that Gwen
was dead and that they wanted to speak to me.
I went straight down to the police station and met
with two male police officers. I presume they were detectives
as they were wearing plain clothes. I don't recall either
of their names. They asked me where I was on Friday,
fourteen October nineteen eighty three, and I told them that
(25:23):
I'd been down the Railway hotel after work and saw
our next girlfriend, Sinati Douglas and started drinking. Prior to that,
I'd been at work at North Queensland Engineers and Agents
from eight am until around four thirty pm. Whilst I
was at the police station, the two detective showed me
a rifle in a cupboard and a box of ammunition
which I recognized as the rifle and ammunition that should
(25:45):
have been at home in the war drove and the
glove box of my car respectively. I remember the two
detectives looking at each other and nodding, and then I
think they said that someone would be in touch to
take my statement. It was a couple of weeks later,
on thirty one Octome nineteen eighty three, when I reattended
the Kenn's police station and provided my statement to the
female uniform police officer.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So, according to Ken Soper, the police never sought him out.
He went to a friend, a police officer. Then he
went into the station. Interestingly, Soper claims he gave his
nineteen eighty three statement to a female police officer, and
yet that statement is clearly signed by ed Kinbacker Police
Constable four double eight six. Soper says when he first
(26:31):
went to the station on the Saturday or Sunday, police
asked him where he was on Friday October fourteenth, the
day Gwen died. He tells them he was at work
from eight am and then out drinking with an ex girlfriend.
There is no record of Soper being questioned on his
whereabouts the day before, specifically the night before.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Hello, Hi Jerry, how are you going?
Speaker 14 (26:58):
Ourphime?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Jerry Thornton and is a retired police detective who is
helping Sue Cole investigate the circumstances of Gwen's death, the
subsequent police investigations and the coronial inquiry. You will recall
Sergeant Thornton hit a brick wall when he decided to
investigate the two thousand and nine accidental death of a
(27:19):
Queensland woman, Laney Corwall, who supposedly fell from a ladder.
Thornton was right, and the killer Laney's de facto partner,
Lewis James Marney, a former Northern Territory cop, was convicted
of murder and jailed for life, but that was only
after he butted heads with senior police who just wanted
the matter to go away.
Speaker 14 (27:42):
I know how hard it is to deal with the
police when you are a policeman. I just can't imagine
what it's like when you're not. But I can nia.
But they're not is in helping you? They just happy
not to talk to you at all. And what are
I saying to that original cause he sent me the
original forms if you want to call them that, and
there was just nothing me And how a Karner should
(28:03):
say write that offor is non suspicious is beyond me,
you know, like when I first looked at it, you know,
like it's fifty to fifty, Like mus suppose no suicides
where it's suspicious or non suspicious, but there's nothing needed
to determine it either way.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Are you convinced that with what suit believes that that
she couldn't have shot hers up?
Speaker 5 (28:25):
No?
Speaker 14 (28:25):
I'm probably the sort of person that you've always got
to have an open mind. But the thing that makes
you think more so than not, is that why has
there been the relaxance of police to release everything, like,
you know, first up, the first thing I tell her
to do was the right information, you know, And the
investigating officers can't find his notebook, his partner on that day,
(28:48):
can't find his notebook, the original file. This should be
kept forever. No, no, that's been lost, you know, like
you're kidding, aren't you. And yet the third copper that
was there, his notebook didn't get lost. They al should
be stored at the same room, at the same police station.
And then they said, oh, because the station has shifted
and all this and probably flooded or something. They easily
(29:09):
use that excuse. But why didn't the other falls not
book go missing? You know, like they said there was
no photos. Let's checked and yes, defended, there was photos.
You know, there was no blood alcohol certificate that blow
and bold at the cranial there was. So it's a
bit of a waste of time doing right information. When
they said no records could be found, there was records there,
(29:29):
all right.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
But and when you do that, and.
Speaker 14 (29:32):
It's like any you hear all these people where they
got a family, there were victims of crime. When they
try and find anything out, they just hit a brick wall.
And all that does is breed suspicion. And it's the
same with this one. You think, well, if you say
reluctant to release anything, why wouldn't we think there's something wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
In the seventeen days police took to interview Ken Soper,
a lot was happening, namely, key physical evidence from the
scene of her death was being lost for good. Incredibly,
Gwen Grover was cremated three days after she died. Two
of those days were the weekend and a full two
(30:16):
weeks before her ex partner was interviewed by police. Her
former husband Duncan says Gwen told him she didn't want
to be buried.
Speaker 15 (30:28):
She she always afraid of being put in the ground.
Speaker 6 (30:33):
She never wanted to be pod in the ground. She
made that quite clear.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Duncan Grover married Gwen in nineteen sixty eight, when she
was just sixteen years old. They separated twelve years later
in nineteen eighty. Sue Cole maintains that Gwen left Duncan
after finding him in bed with her friend Bet who,
as you've heard, denies that, claiming she and Duncan started
(31:00):
seeing each other after Gwen began her relationship with Ken
Sofa two years later. Regardless, when's the strange husband Duncan
Grover was the person responsible for her cremation.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
I don't know. It's one thing that I ask myself
all the time.
Speaker 9 (31:19):
You know why, I really can't.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
I can't come for any definite conclusion just to know
that she did it.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
She was right handed too. But she was shot in
the left temple. Did that seem to you strange?
Speaker 6 (31:32):
She shot herself up through the mouth.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I thought that they said the wound went through the
left temple, because I think Craig Locke found her with
the gun pointed up. But then when the police found her,
she was lying down right.
Speaker 6 (31:46):
I never told me that. I had to get identify her.
Speaker 15 (31:49):
And when they pulled the.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
Sheet back, both her eyes were black. How come she
caught black eyes?
Speaker 15 (31:56):
They said, Oh, that's consistent with a shot up through
the mouth, through the roof of the mouth.
Speaker 6 (32:00):
The brain that called your eyes to go black.
Speaker 8 (32:04):
Okay, yeah, because it is. It is a strange thing, but.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
Yeah, she's put the thing in her mouth and pulled
the trigger. That that I reckon.
Speaker 15 (32:13):
There was no other marks on her, no marks on
the temple or anything like that, not that I saw
her anyway?
Speaker 8 (32:19):
Yeah, how was it having to do that for you?
Speaker 6 (32:23):
Difficult?
Speaker 8 (32:24):
Have you ever seen a dead body before? Would you
ever forget it?
Speaker 9 (32:30):
No?
Speaker 8 (32:31):
Would you have ever got over something like that?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Do you think?
Speaker 5 (32:34):
No?
Speaker 6 (32:34):
Not really No.
Speaker 8 (32:36):
So the other thing is Beck was her best friend
at the time, well.
Speaker 15 (32:40):
Before you, yeahship quite a while, quite a few years.
Speaker 8 (32:46):
Is there anything else that you remember about that time?
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I mean when she saw you, the understanding what she
was going over to grab some stuff from Ken's before
she died?
Speaker 8 (32:57):
Did she say anything about that to you?
Speaker 6 (33:00):
Aren't?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And the details about the gun and how that was
all very sketchy.
Speaker 6 (33:05):
I never thought the weapon.
Speaker 15 (33:06):
I didn't know what it was, with the old action
or single action or tell me automatic, I don't know
what it was.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Do you think if Green was going to kill herself
that she would have used a gun?
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Well, didn't have anything else those I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
It just seems an odd choice. I mean women aren't
usually known for that. They'd usually use hills or something
like that.
Speaker 15 (33:27):
Yeah, she didn't put it where to make a mark
on her face or anything like that. She probably realized
enough she did up through them out there there would
be no marking.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, I was under the impression when I was just
looking at kim back as I thought, they said it
was it in her left temple.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
I never saw a mark there, And I looked at
her face and had a head in the face and her.
Speaker 15 (33:48):
Hair and all that sort of thing, and there was
no other mark on my face anywhere I looked at them.
In case you'd been beaten, That's why I asked about
dark rings around her eyes, and that's what they told me.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yeah. Do you think it's undeniable that she killed herself?
Speaker 6 (34:03):
Though?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I mean, the coroner could have come back with an
open finding and said maybe she did, maybe she didn't.
Were you surprised that it came back so adamant that
that was what actually happened given all the discrepancies.
Speaker 6 (34:15):
I didn't really give a lot of thought. In my mind,
I knew what happened.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
A lot of people don't think she did that, but
you're certain she did.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
This was the first conversation I had with Duncan, But
when I went to Cannes a couple of months later,
I caught up with him again, hoping to get more
clarity about what he recalls about his first wife's death.
Was it straight away from your memory ruled of suicide,
which is that all you ever knew at the time.
Speaker 9 (34:43):
Yeah, from a nice at the more Trio where I
identified her because I asked, and then you know what
happened here? And I think the log in charge the
mort you said he used to be a suicide because
she had black eyes. And I asked why her eyes
of you said, that's in conjunct with it being shot
(35:03):
up through the mouth.
Speaker 8 (35:04):
Do you know that she was actually shot in the town.
Speaker 9 (35:07):
I never saw any marks on the table. I looked
over her face everywhere or also there was the black eyes.
Put it in the mouth, up through the mouth.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Here Duncan demonstrates what he means, pointing his finger to
the roof of his mouth.
Speaker 8 (35:21):
Now do you remember what gun they said was used
at the time?
Speaker 9 (35:24):
Twenty two?
Speaker 8 (35:25):
So at the time they said it twenty two. But
the gun went missing, you.
Speaker 9 (35:28):
Know about that, right, And it was in the car.
Speaker 8 (35:31):
It was in the car, but then it went missing.
Speaker 9 (35:33):
Police must have got it. They're the only ones that
are there because somebody, somebody saw the body in the car.
She was sort of slefed over in the car and
thought it doesn't look right and call the police. As
far as I know, that's what happened.
Speaker 8 (35:47):
How long have you and Gwen been broken up when
she allegedly committed suicide.
Speaker 9 (35:53):
Oh, it was a couple of years, two or three
years before she went back to Boggle Broye and then
she was DN there for a year or over a year.
Speaker 8 (36:04):
Sharon Muckerty seemed to think that she was upset about
the breakup over you, but she didn't. She seemed to
get the timeframes wrong. And that's where the confusion was
when I was speaking with that, because she had she
thought that she'd just broken up with you, that she
had just discovered the relationship.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
But that was.
Speaker 9 (36:22):
Sharon was released canon. Sharon was, I wouldn't believe a
word she told you.
Speaker 8 (36:27):
Well, obviously the police did. When we spoke before. You said,
you believe that she committed suicide, but you also have
trouble believing she leave always.
Speaker 9 (36:36):
Right, Yeah, we bet and I both found out hard
to accept why she would do that too. Him, you know,
just couldn't work it out, he said, you know why,
we didn't know there was anything wrong. She'd just broken
up with Kennon a week you say, a couple of
weeks earlier than that, so I remember correctly, and we
(37:01):
thought she sort of moved on.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well, I got the impression that she's quite feisty, tea
a fighter.
Speaker 9 (37:07):
Not Oh yes, she had a few beers. She was
usually she used to tick up for herself, you know,
but after a few drinks.
Speaker 8 (37:17):
And she should fire up right.
Speaker 9 (37:20):
Like they're call him a lions or something.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Well, that's it. So that's the whole thing. I can't imagine.
And I think that's the argument of the family. Then
why would she just give up?
Speaker 9 (37:31):
That's the women's stool trying to work it out. For
this day, we still don't understand, you know, the same
with my son. When David hung himself, Why did he
do that, Whether it was something to do with his
mother still haunting him, he knows, he know what was
like to lose somebody he loved like that, and he
(37:54):
doesn't he's boys.
Speaker 8 (37:56):
Why you could have probably seen that David his.
Speaker 9 (38:00):
Mom died, though not really because he sort of moved
away and got married and they came up here a
couple of times, and you know, and and we didn't
have a lot of contact, whether his boys. We used
to see him on Facebook all the time, but we
didn't have much contact. We get a phone called occasionally
David Ring and have a chat on birthdays and Christmas time.
(38:23):
We'd always contact each other then, but apart from that,
we didn't sort of have any contact.
Speaker 8 (38:29):
You were closer to.
Speaker 9 (38:32):
Yeah, I had more contact because he used to make
the effort to come up here, and you know he
was when he separated from his wife. He sort of
got together another girl and she's related to Bet. The
other one we didn't know it at the time, and
she was BET's cousin, so we didn't know it now.
Speaker 8 (38:55):
The other thing is parent McKennon and when.
Speaker 9 (38:59):
Used to fight a lot after drinking.
Speaker 8 (39:01):
Did you have many fights with Gwen? I mean obviously
made she found out about you and Bet.
Speaker 9 (39:07):
No, there was never much problem over that because her
and Bet were friends. You know, we've been friends for
known each other. Our family has known each others for
six seven years probably.
Speaker 8 (39:20):
According to her family. The way she found out was
she walked in.
Speaker 9 (39:23):
On you and oh, she came over. I was in
bed because I was working late early morning starts to
the trucks and that I was in bed to sleep
and Bet was out in the kitchen with some of
a couple of the kids and talked. When she came
up and I come in and they says, yeah, come in,
come in. He thought, just won't sitting there ever talk
(39:45):
and she had, Well I wasn't. She said, he's in bed.
She went in there and oh, there you are. Well
it was on in better sleep.
Speaker 8 (39:56):
See. The confusion is is the family says that that's
when she grabbed the boys and went to brock bron.
Speaker 9 (40:04):
It's not straight away. It was weeks after she went
back down there.
Speaker 8 (40:09):
So she wasn't upset about that at the time because
again the family said.
Speaker 9 (40:13):
No, she just walked out there and she said to
me later on, I just had to see for myself
where you were.
Speaker 8 (40:19):
I was in bed, So in that sense, she just
wanted to confirm that.
Speaker 9 (40:23):
You guys, yeah, probably because someone else had told her.
Some of her friends are when they got pissed, they
you know, try to throw up trouble and the Lanes,
yeah did you know that big mouth. Yeah, yeah, we're
all good. Maybe used to party all the time together.
Speaker 8 (40:40):
But the Lanes said that they never believed she killed herself.
Speaker 9 (40:43):
They didn't. They didn't believe it.
Speaker 8 (40:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
So the other thing is that the family say and
I've got to put this to you to make sure
that they said that the reason she came down there
was because you guys had had a fight after she
found you and back together and that you but she
had a black eye or whatever, a black eye so
(41:06):
never never, no physical what about with Kemp.
Speaker 9 (41:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Duncan, as you've heard, claims Gwen had previously told him
she did not wish to be buried, But in his
statement to the cold case team, he said.
Speaker 16 (41:23):
I can't recall exactly when it was, but it was
before Gwen and I got married. She said to me
words to the effect of if I go before, you
promised me that you'll have me cremated. I'm not sure
who authorized her cremation.
Speaker 6 (41:35):
It wasn't me.
Speaker 16 (41:36):
I just presumed she made a wishes known to a family.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Gwen was cremated at the wang Dara Crematorium in Townsville
on eighteenth of October nineteen eighty three for and on
behalf of North Queensland Crematorium Limited. We have the application
for permission for cremation with statutory declaration held by the
North Queensland Crematorium dated octom Over eighteenth, nineteen eighty three.
(42:02):
It is filled out and signed by Duncan Roy Grover
and it costs ken Sofer two hundred and eighty five
dollars to cremate Gwen's body. Now, I know that there
was a big controversy over the cremation, and I know
it's got your your sintron it. But you don't remember
at the time that did they bring the forms up?
(42:24):
Maybe they just told you the science stuf because you
probably were Saadu the whole time.
Speaker 9 (42:27):
Yeah, I don't know. Actually he organized it with if
ken organized it appeal.
Speaker 8 (42:36):
Or he paid for it though, didn't it.
Speaker 9 (42:39):
Yeah, Yeah, I think he. I think he organized it
as far as asking it understood. I had nothing to
do with the organization of it. And he told me
that they'll take the ashes back to nar'brien bury him
in a family plot there. We went down for the funeral.
Speaker 8 (42:57):
It's what they did on the night that when you
were fixing your truck.
Speaker 9 (43:01):
Right, I was working. That wasn't not just working, you.
Speaker 8 (43:04):
Know, And you got the boys that day. You picked
the boys up.
Speaker 9 (43:07):
From her place late in the afternoon. Yeah, we bought
the last lader of her and a bit bought the
last lad of stuff over to the flat and the
boys come home with us. I don't even know what
day it was now, it was the weekend, right, Friday, Yeah, Friday,
that's right.
Speaker 8 (43:25):
Was that when she allegedly said, if anything happens to me, yeah?
Speaker 9 (43:29):
Well she said, oh, I said, if anything happened to me,
you look after the boys. And I said yeah, And
I said yeah, I said yeah, okay, I'll look after him.
And she said no, no, I mean I'm serious. If
anything does, anything should happen to me, promise me the
boys will be right with you. And I said yeah,
I said, what's going to happen to you?
Speaker 5 (43:49):
You know?
Speaker 8 (43:51):
Did she strike you as suicidal?
Speaker 9 (43:54):
Not really? We just thought of it after and after
she left said a bit. Yeah, it was a strange
thing she said.
Speaker 8 (44:01):
Did she seem scared?
Speaker 9 (44:06):
Not scared, just emotional?
Speaker 14 (44:09):
You know?
Speaker 9 (44:09):
It was yeah. But I just couldn't look at why
she would say, why she'd say that. I just couldn't
work that out.
Speaker 8 (44:15):
Okay. Lasted just a couple of questions about how did
you and bwend me?
Speaker 9 (44:18):
She used to work in a cafe and I met
her there in Bogaba.
Speaker 8 (44:22):
I guess there wouldn't have been a lot of people
your age. I mean, you guys probably fell into a
relationship because you guys are around the same age, or
did you.
Speaker 9 (44:30):
Yeah, she's a bit younger than me. Oh, I had
plenty of girlfriends when I was eighteen, nineteen, twenty three
or four at once on the go.
Speaker 8 (44:40):
So why did you Mary Blain?
Speaker 9 (44:41):
I don't know. Because she was pregnant one reason. Yeah,
I thought the right thing. You know.
Speaker 8 (44:46):
Did you ever think that it would be for life?
Speaker 9 (44:48):
Yeah, well you don't really know. We thought at the time. Yeah,
you did love her. Yeah, where do I still do?
We had thirteen and fourteen, you something married fifteens. I'm
I'm married.
Speaker 8 (45:03):
For a while, but you were separated for a long.
Speaker 9 (45:05):
Time before, Yeah, quite a while.
Speaker 6 (45:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (45:08):
Did she promise you a divorce?
Speaker 9 (45:09):
Well, I didn't bother about it. I thought, really, she
wants to divorce? Was she can? And apparently she got
papers and give me the papers to sign them, and
I'd sign them, but haven't given them back to her
when this happened. You know, I think she wanted to
get married, and she wanted to get married a ken.
That's as far as I knew. Anyway, Do you know
(45:31):
why they broke up, wouldn't have a clue.
Speaker 8 (45:33):
And I guess last week, how did you find out
about her death?
Speaker 9 (45:36):
Someone someone said to be I just saw Gwen's car
on the back of a tow truck going somewhere, and
she thought, oh gee, that's strange because she hadn't been
able to pick the boys up. So she started ringing
around to see she actually rung the police, or I'm
not really sure that anyway, Then she did ring the police,
(45:56):
and she told her who she was and who I
wasn't in that know, and so we'll send the carry out.
She's what, what's up? We'll just send a carry out?
They send a carry out to police in it? Yes,
when they tell me?
Speaker 8 (46:11):
And what was your reaction?
Speaker 9 (46:13):
Shit?
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Did they ever treat you like you could have possibly
killed him? So they didn't ask you? Did you kill it?
Speaker 9 (46:21):
Not very cool? Or no? I don no, no, I
don't remember.
Speaker 8 (46:25):
Did they even ask you what you were doing that night?
Speaker 6 (46:29):
No?
Speaker 5 (46:30):
I never ever liked Duncan. It was as simple as that.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
This is Irene, Gwen's older sister.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
There was just something about him. He was older than
Gwen for a start. I just I just didn't like him.
But you know, the feeling was mutual. He didn't like
me neither, so because I was too straight for him,
I think, And I knew what he was, you know,
I just knew that he wasn't any good for Gwen.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Irene says when Gwen fled to Bogo Bright in nineteen eight,
Duncan was reluctant to give her any money for the boys' expenses.
Speaker 5 (47:04):
Well, I used to get it out of him.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
I'd go and say to him, look, these children need
so many T shirts, so many shirts, so many shoes, socks, underwear,
whatever to take to school. You know, they had to
have clothes to go to school. And I just said him,
you need to give me money, because I looked after
(47:27):
them for a little while, for a couple of weeks
while when went back to.
Speaker 5 (47:30):
Cans and several things up there to come back.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
To Boggle Bright, and it was like getting blood.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
Out of a stone.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
But I just stood there and demanded that he give
me money to buy those things for his children. And
he ended up doing it. And when she come back,
we had a bit of a trouble because she said
that I was the only one that she knew that
had ever gotten anything out.
Speaker 5 (47:54):
Of Duncan fortunately had no choice. Remember the wedding, Yeah,
I remember the wedding. I was at the wedding.
Speaker 8 (48:03):
Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 6 (48:04):
Well?
Speaker 2 (48:04):
It was a really it was a good occasion and
his family were there and my family were there, and
all the ones that were hit living where we were
were there and it.
Speaker 5 (48:14):
All went down very well.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
My sister Gwen, she was really really happy and looked beautiful.
Speaker 8 (48:20):
When did you know the marriage was in trouble.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
I knew it was in trouble, probably maybe after was
born the first child. I knew that there was something
going on because he was very controlling, you know. I
didn't want her doing this, and didn't want her doing that,
and didn't want her taking the car. And he'd look
at the mileage on the on the speedo and then
(48:44):
check it again when he came home from work to
see if she'd been anywhere.
Speaker 5 (48:48):
You know, he was one of those people.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Irene was three years older than Gwen, who was the
middle child. The children comprised Lilian the eldest, followed by Irene, Stan, Gwen, Margaret,
twins Christopher and Christine, and then Sue. Christopher died in infancy.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Christopher I think back in those days because they didn't
know anything about it.
Speaker 5 (49:12):
But I think it might have been sids and Gwen.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
She was a happy little kid. I didn't have a
great lot to do with her. We sort of classed
her as the younger ones, you know, and we were
far too old to be worried about the younger ones, as.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
You do when your kids. But no, she was always happy.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
At one stage she went and lived with my Nana
because Mum just felt that she wasn't doing well because
of the size of the family that she was, you know,
perhaps being left out because you know, my brother and
I sort of, you know, did our thing, and then
the little kids so sort of did their thing. So
(49:54):
she was sort of in the middle of that lot,
and she enjoyed that.
Speaker 5 (49:59):
She was fun until right up until then she got married.
Speaker 8 (50:04):
Can you tell me about the funeral for David. I mean,
obviously that was a big glow. I mean, did anyone
see that coming?
Speaker 2 (50:10):
No, no, we didn't. I didn't anyway, I always knew
that David. You know, David was very close to his mum.
Whereas is the spitting image of his father to look
at to him speak, he is Duncan over and over,
but young David, he was more of a gentle soul,
(50:31):
and he was very much like his mom, and he
missed his mum from day one because he was only
very very young. When my sister passed away, I begged
Duncan to let me take the children because I knew
that they wouldn't have a very good life with him,
and he wouldn't allow me to have the kids. And
(50:53):
he took them back to Cans with him and ended
up with the woman that he had when Gwen left
in and she had children. When Gwen passed away and
they came down for the funeral, he came to the
house after and I just can't remember what happened. And
(51:14):
when he wouldn't let me have the children, I just
said to him, you know, you can just leave, and
I actually threatened him. I actually said to him that
if he ever set foot on my doorstep again, I'd
put an axe in his head. That's what I said
to Duncan. That's how devastated I was, and I never
ever wanted to see him again, and I never ever
(51:36):
did until David's funeral, and then he had the hide
to come up to me and want to hug me.
This was after Gwen's inquest. He never spoke, never even
tried to attempted to speak to me up there, and
I just I just walked away. I just took my
head in discussed and walked away. I've got done him
to come near me, mate.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
I had to ask Irene why she like su Dan
was so determined to keep trying to get answers about
her sister's death.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
My motive is to clear the stigma off my sister's
name and to get justice for her, because I do
not believe that she committed suicide.
Speaker 5 (52:17):
That's as simple as that, and I'd like her name
clear completely.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
There was no way in the world that I was
going to believe that my sister committed suicide.
Speaker 5 (52:28):
She had those two boys. She was fantastic mother with
those boys. She loved those boys, and there's no.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Way she would left them for Duncan to have any
access to for Duncan to rare completely by himself. If
she was going to do that, she would have made
arrangements for those boys, and she didn't. So there's no
way I will never ever believe that she took her
own life.
Speaker 8 (52:54):
And what do you think happened?
Speaker 2 (52:56):
I think that something's happened up there. I'm not sure
what happened. I really don't know. She could have found
out something about all these yah who fellas and they've
threatened her, or she's threatened them because she was a
little bit feisty, and I don't know.
Speaker 5 (53:17):
I really don't know.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Irene recalls when they first learned of Gwen's dead.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
My husband was down because he used to do some
casual work at the Railway Hotel in Robbi Bry and
he found out and came home and told me, and
then I rang Mom and Dad to make sure that
they were going to be at home so that I
could go and see them. But you know, I didn't
say what was wrong. So we went up to Gannadad
(53:44):
to Mum and dad and we had to tell mom
and dad what had happened. There was tears a lot
of tears, and I think it was just disbelief, disbelief
that they couldn't they couldn't understand what had happened because
previously too that Gwen had been home. She came home
(54:05):
and bought Ken with her to introduce him to Mum
and dad, and you know, and they spent a few
days with Mum and Dad before they went back to Cannes.
Speaker 5 (54:16):
They were just devastated about the whole situation.
Speaker 8 (54:19):
What did they think of Ken?
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Well, they seem to they seemed to like him, all right.
I hated him, But that's beside the point.
Speaker 8 (54:28):
Why did you hate him?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
I just didn't like him. I just did not like him.
There was just something about him. I either liked people
or I don't. They would be a lot alike, and
they were friends. He knew Duncan, and I'm sure that
they all knew each other because Can's back in those days,
(54:50):
was a very small place. It was just an old, little,
old country town.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Irene remembers her dad's efforts to find out what really
happened to Gwen. He also never believed she took her
own life.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Dad trying to find out as much as he could.
You know, he kept bringing the Cann's police almost daily,
and they kept saying to him that it was insufficient evidence.
Speaker 5 (55:16):
That's all I kept saying to end, that they had
insufficient evidence.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Because Dad wanted to know what happened and how did
it happen, and what took place and almost sort of thing,
you know, and they just kept saying to him that
there was insufficient evidence, so he died, never ever knowing.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
The failings in the nineteen eighty three police investigation have
come to light thanks largely to Sue's persistent work to
discover the circumstances of her sister's death. Gwen's family and
friends have only recently become aware of the details of
the initial investigation, and it has convinced them that Gwen
did not act alone in the final hours of her life.
(55:58):
Still be remains that Gwen killed herself. Can you describe
her to me? But the sort of person she was,
you know, what she liked? I mean, the thing that
seems to be consistent. She was a doting mother.
Speaker 4 (56:11):
She was is her voice come very sickond?
Speaker 1 (56:14):
And last, Yeah, what do you actually think happened to Gwen?
Do you believe that she could kill herself?
Speaker 4 (56:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (56:21):
Why is that?
Speaker 4 (56:23):
When she gets angry? She did say angry?
Speaker 2 (56:25):
Mate?
Speaker 4 (56:26):
And yeah, well you never know what an alcoholic does
when they're drunk. Yeah, I didn't even know kinhead guns.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
Okay, So is there anything else you wanted to say
at all?
Speaker 9 (56:39):
Bet?
Speaker 1 (56:39):
I mean, obviously it's a long time ago, but it's
something you'd never forget, right, No, you.
Speaker 4 (56:45):
Couldn't forget it. Not no way could you forget it.
It's done, realized, says he. You just let it go
and let the girl do be in peace. It's just
not good.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
I think from sus whose point of view is she
doesn't I mean, aside from you and Duncan and Sharon,
everyone else believes that she didn't do it. So I
guess it's from her point of view she wants to
try and clear her name. I suppose because it's such
a stigma to have against you.
Speaker 4 (57:15):
Yeah, well, it's that's true, very true.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
Yeah, and maybe if you know, the boys would know.
I guess you know, but maybe David might still be
alive if if his mum hadn't died in that awful way.
Speaker 4 (57:30):
He never ever, ever, never never, It's horrible. I mean
he had you remember that far back. For God's sake,
you know, I remembered something. I've nearly lost my memory now,
said bloody.
Speaker 9 (57:46):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (57:46):
I hope you get to the bottom of it. No,
I don't believe, not once else he believes that she
didn't shoot as well she did.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Well, Bet, thank you so much for your time. I
really appreci she had it.
Speaker 8 (58:01):
You have a good rest of the day.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
You to take care.
Speaker 4 (58:04):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
Gwen's son David never got over his mother's death. Unable
to fathom how she could choose to leave him, he
took his life on the twenty third of May twenty twenty.
Next lost evidence, changed stories, recovered memories, and the gun
(58:30):
that didn't exist.
Speaker 14 (58:31):
The only problem was point three two fives weren't vented
to the early two thousands. Hey, you can make that
mistake is beyond me.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
The police reenactment of Gwen's death with your.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
Right hand around the muzzle, face the muzzle to the
left temple, and with your left hands attempt to operate
the trigger.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
And we introduce stunning new evidence from the ex wife
of Ken Soper, who left him not long before he
started going out with Gwen, but knowing.
Speaker 6 (59:01):
Him at the time.
Speaker 5 (59:03):
I said to whommever I was talking to, Well, she
wouldn't have just done that.
Speaker 8 (59:09):
Either he did it or he caused her.
Speaker 6 (59:12):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot Au
(59:39):
or leave us an anonymous tip at shot Inthdark dot
com dot au. If this podcast has raised issues for you,
please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them
at www dot lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 7 (01:00:00):
This podcast is brought to.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
You by me presenter and journalist Alison Sandy. If you
like what you're hearing, please rate and review our podcast.
It helps other listeners find us special thanks to my writer,
producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's sister and tireless campaigner for Justice
(01:00:23):
Sue Cole, sound designer Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before
our theme music is by Bob Kronk the First and
there is a link to his music on Spotify in
the show notes.
Speaker 9 (01:00:41):
When Away Such Swirm, the Pains and Shot in the
Dark is a seven News production.
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot AU.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why can't we find out what happened? Why won't anyone
help us?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It was not suicide, There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Shot in the Dark episode three h Hello, Bet, it's
Alison Sandy on the Seven network.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
How are you very well? Thank you?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
This is one of the last people who saw Gwen
Grover alive.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yeah, I was working with us.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Her former best friend Elizabeth or Bette Grover, who had
a relationship with Duncan Grover, Gwen's husband who Bet later
web you might recall the extraordinary betrayal as recounted by
Gwen's sister Sue Cole.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yes, Gwen, Gwen separated from Duncan Grover, she came back
to Barbarbara in New South Wales and I was living
back there with one of my sisters. I'd got my
first job at the time, and she told me and
told my sisters that the reason she had left was
that she came home from work unexpectedly and caught Duncan
(01:47):
in bed with her best friend, a woman named Bet,
and she packed the boys up in the car and
she fled back down to her sisters because it was
really the only place that she had to go.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Accepted it, and Duncan say, that is flat out wrong.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Your friends, you know, was helping her. We never went
not being.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Friends, I asked Bet when she started seeing Duncan romantically,
Because another of Gwen's friends from the time, Sharon mcadee,
suggested Gwen only found out about her estranged husband and
her best friend shortly before she allegedly took her own life.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Why been down chairs living when she come back here?
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So when she found you in Duncan together, that was
a lot earlier in the piece.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Yeah, Harry Ken, we're going like Walfire has. Duncan and
I started having a relationship until then, we never I don't.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Know why there's a confusion in the statements and sorry, yeah,
because I was trying to figure it out. I figured
given that she was moving on with Gwen and Duncan
was living with you, that she knew a lot earlier
about the relationship.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Well, she knew Duncan was living with you. She had
already broken, they'd broken up made Yeah, no fair enough.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Would you consider that you were her best friend?
Speaker 4 (03:06):
We were best friends. We were a lot of sisters really,
you know, she knew everything about me and I knew
everything about her, and we just talked openly, intendedly to
each other. But Duncan and I never started a relationship
until her par and kid got together.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
This is at odds with the time frame provided by
Gwen's family, who say her sister learned of their relationship
in nineteen eighty, which is why she fled to Bogle Briye.
But moving on, are you able to tell me about
the last time you saw her.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
We just unpacked all the stuff we got and put
into a new flat she got near the Can's base,
and we agreed to meet up next morning at nine o'clock.
I had the boys, David and I had them, and
I had to get them off to school with my
five kids, and yeah, then I went over to meet
(03:58):
her and she never turned out. And I just went
to all her friends and none of them could give
a damn about the girl, which made me really really angry.
The only time they had anything to do with it, it
was when they were drinking with her and it was
just so so mean. She needed help. She was crying
out for help. She loved that guy she with. She
(04:20):
told uncle she never loved him.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Yeah, I don't know what happened between her and ten
doing alcohol was a big, big part of it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That claims Gwen was a full blown alcoholic, mostly a
happy drunk, but occasionally angry.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
There was just too much alcohol. It was just alcohol. Alcohol.
Wherever you looked, it was alcohol. She couldn't get up
in the morning without having alcohol. She was alcoholic.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
They said that she only drank on weekends. No, okay,
so you're saying that it was all the time.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Oh, I've seen I've seen her drinking.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
That says Gwen did not work as a cleaner every day,
meaning most days she was drinking. However, there are mixed opinions,
particularly as she wouldn't have been able to afford to
drink so often.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
The heavy drinking came a lot later when she moved
to Cans. I think because all her friends used to
all drink every weekend. You know, they go through severy
eight carts every weekend.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
The other confusing factor is like, how if she was
drunk she could load the gun and with a left hand.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
And you know, I've got no idea, mate, because yeah,
I've never loaded again, I've never fired again. I wouldn't
have a flu ou mode touch. So I don't know
what or how she done it.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Duncan did tell me she fighted one somewhere, but she
told me she absolutely hates guns.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
She confirms it was Gwen who broke off the relationship
with Can Soper, and she helped Gwen move her two
young boys and their belongings into a flat which needed
a lot of work.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Uncle dropped the boy's home. Now, when we were finished
with the flat, putting all the stuff inside, I left there.
And wherever she went from there, I got no idea
whether she stayed there or not, you know, because later
on she went to Paul and Lynn's place and she
wanted to stay there, and Paul cracked her metal because
(06:22):
she was drunk as and he told her to get
me in no uncertain terms, and that really broke her up.
I think that straw that broke the Kebel's back. And
they have been lifelong drinking friends as long as dunkening.
When we're in cans.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Cracked mental is Australian slang for getting angry. Betty was
saying that Gwen's friend Paul was upset, possibly because she
was drunk, and told her to leave, despite Paul and
his wife Lynn being close friends of hers. Paul and
Lynn were currently the last people to see Gwen alive.
(07:03):
The Kirna found their alleged rejection of her may have
contributed to her depression and driven her over the edge,
something as siblings think is far fetched and we agree.
Remember also, the Karena put a lot of stock in Gwen,
apparently being upset about her breakup with Duncan. She loved
(07:24):
her boys though, right, hell so in every decision she
seemed to have made was in their best interest. How
could killing herself be in the best interests of the boys.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Well, ever, I don't know. I can't intwer that mote.
I can't answer that.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Did she ever strike you as being suicidal before?
Speaker 6 (07:42):
No?
Speaker 4 (07:44):
She was dead against it.
Speaker 7 (07:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
And she wasn't a gun user either.
Speaker 9 (07:47):
Was she. No?
Speaker 4 (07:48):
She hated and like me, you know, my brother shot
himself and you know, I just I won't have guns.
Duncan's got guns, but I won't go near them or
look at them. Or anything. I hate them.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Bet and Duncan, who already had about five other children
living with them, including some under foster care, took Gwen's
boys and David into their home after she allegedly took
her own life, something Bett thought she would never do.
Given the discrepancies about the time Gwen found out about
Bett and Duncan's relationship, I rang Sharon Macadey, whose testimony
(08:27):
was relied upon so much in the.
Speaker 8 (08:29):
Inquest Hello Sharon Alison San.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
She said in no uncertain terms that she didn't want
to be part of the podcast. However, during our brief discussion,
Sharon did concede she got the timing wrong in relation
to Gwen finding out about Duncan and Bet. This coincides
with what Gwen's sisters said that finding Duncan in bed
with Bet was the trigger for Gwen to leave Cans
(08:55):
and drive all the way back to Boglebry more than
two years prior when Gwen and Sue moved in together
in the early nineteen eighties, and Sue is adamant she
certainly wasn't piney for her estranged husband.
Speaker 10 (09:09):
I lived with Gwen for the two years that she
was in New South Wales from nineteen eighty to the
beginning of nineteen eighty two, so I saw the condition
she was in when she arrived. Gwen was a fighter,
so I would say she was more angry and furious
than anything. And this whole narrative that was spun at
(09:32):
the inquest about she pined for him for two years
and that's why she came back to Cannes. To me,
that's utter nonsense, because Duncan Grover's mother asked Gwen when
she arrived in New South Wales is the marriage over?
Is there any chance of reconciliation? And I was there
and heard this conversation. Gwen said it's absolutely over, and
her exact words were, I would never go back near
(09:53):
that be again. So she had no intention of coming
back up here and hope you know that there'd be
any reconciliation with Duncan Grover at all.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
But Sharon remains convinced Gwen took her own life, even
though her father, mick O'sheay and uncle Paul Lane, who
he mentioned earlier as one of the last known people
to see Gwen alive, didn't believe that, and they were
much better friends with Gwen than Sharon.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
Was.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Sharon says this in her witness statement dated twenty fourth
of April twenty twenty one.
Speaker 11 (10:28):
My father always thought Gwen didn't kill herself and that
someone should look into it. For many years, he would
say that he could not accept that Gwen would shoot herself.
He never really gave me a reason why, but I
do recall that based on the amount of beer bottles
in the car, he doubted Gwen could have drunk them all,
implying there was more than one person in the car.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
It was Sharon's father, Mick, who picked up Gwen's car
after police were finished with it, as he had organized
its purchase for her in the first place.
Speaker 11 (10:55):
The sentiment was generally shared in the family, and Uncle
Paul said he couldn't accept Gwen would kill her I've
never spoken about this to police before.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
In her witness statement, Sharon also recalled the last time
she saw Gwen.
Speaker 11 (11:08):
The day before Gwen died. I went to Gwen's new
place with my husband and my then young child. We
arrived about mid morning and stayed till about nine or
ten pm that night. I was helping Gwen move out
of Ken Soaper's house and into the new place. At
the esplanade. Gwen's boys weren't there and she'd left them
with Duncan while she was moving. We used our Combie
(11:29):
van and Gwen's car. We had to do about two
to three runs. I recall the place was a real mess,
but Gwen said it was going to be okay and
she could fix the place up. I recall Gwen didn't
have much money and the place looked really cheap.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Sharon then went on to say her old friend was
very distraught and wanted her to stay longer, even though
it was late when they had finished.
Speaker 11 (11:52):
During the day when we were moving, she was visibly
devastated and would cough and vomit regularly. This went on
throughout the day right up until when we left. Before
we left, Gwen cracked open her first beer for the
day and had it in a stubby cooler. I would
say that Gwen would have only had a six pack
in the house as she didn't have much money and
didn't buy beer by the carton.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Now we turned to the initial police investigation. Friday, October fourteenth,
nineteen eighty three. It was sometime after lunch, about twenty
minutes after Craig Locke had called Triple zero to report
he'd found the body of a woman in a car
with a rifle a motorcycle. Copp arrived first. Several other
(12:42):
police arrived within minutes, among them Junior Constable Ed Kinbacker,
who had joined the Queensland Police Service just two years earlier.
Here is young Constable Kinbacker's written report, called a Form
four report, which has space for a brief summation of
the circumstances of death. He wrote it later on the
same day Gwen was found.
Speaker 7 (13:03):
Report concerning death by member of the Police Force. Gwen
Lorraine Grover, pensioner by whom identified Duncan Roy Grover. Time
death reported to member of the Police force approximately one pm.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Gwen's estranged husband Duncan, identified her body at the Cannes Hospital, Morgue.
He told the cold case team in his witness statement
that the police arrived at his home just after he
finished work at four pm and he went with them
straightway to see Gwen's body. They had wrapped up the
crime scene in about two hours, and Constable Kinbacker stated
(13:40):
the following in his report.
Speaker 7 (13:44):
At some time on the morning of the fourteenth of
the tenth, nineteen eighty three, one Gwen Lorraine Grover was
shot in her vehicle at the intersection of Lake and
Rutherford Streets, Cans. Suicide is suspected. When she was last
seen by her strange husband the evening of the thirteenth
of the tenth eighty three, at approximately seven thirty pm.
(14:05):
She seemed to be in good spirits but was upset
over the breakup of a relationship with her boyfriend. The
two were contemplating marriage. The deceased had just moved into
a new residence and had decided to start a new
life away from her boyfriend. Inside the vehicle in which
she was found was a number of empty studies. Also,
there was a large amount of cigarette ash on the
floor of the vehicle, suggesting she may have sat in
(14:27):
the vehicle thinking sometime prior to committing the act. Careful
attention should be given to the angle of entry of
the bullet, as it may perhaps be critical to the
direction of the investigation. Police attempted to interview her boyfriend, however,
he could not be located. Inquiries are continuing immediately.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Constable Kimbacker has jumped to some big conclusions. He states
Gwen was shot sometime in the morning, something he could
not possibly have known and for which there was no evidence.
He instantly suspects suicide. You will hear more about the
cigarette ash, the alcohol and the gun later. There is
no mention that Gwen left behind two young sons. It
(15:11):
is worth remembering that most police officers in Australia in
nineteen eighty three did not ever come across a woman
who had fatally shot herself because it was and is
extremely rare. However, a majority of police investigating homicides have
encountered a woman shot dead, almost always by their male partner.
(15:31):
Also bear in mind the police handbook at the time
instructed certain procedures must be followed, even for a suspected suicide,
and it's clear they weren't, but we'll get to that later.
Speaker 12 (15:46):
I'm a sworn member of the Queensland Police Service. I
was sworn in as a police officer in July nineteen
eighty one and my registered number is four double eight six.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Here is how ed Kinbacker described his initial investigation in
a statement given to the Police Cold Case Investigation Team
in September twenty twenty.
Speaker 12 (16:04):
I recall that on the fourteenth of October nineteen eighty three,
I was working as a uniform officer at Cann's inquiries.
My duties included attending to coroners matters, including the investigation
of sudden deaths. When we were called to Lake Street cans.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
A police photographer took just a handful of shots of
the scene, where usually they would take dozens, sometimes hundreds.
Speaker 12 (16:27):
From review of the photographs, I recall the vehicle was
located in a relatively isolated area in Lake Street, near
the hockey fields. The vehicle was parked on the side
of the road on a dirt verge. There was nothing
unusual about how it was parked other than the hockey field.
The location is pretty much bushland. The vehicle was a
couple of one hundred meters away from any houses. I
(16:48):
recall the vehicle was a small sedan. The windows were
up and the doors were closed. I observed the female
in the front of the vehicle and identified she was deceased.
She was slumped as shown and photos. I recall quite
a lot of cigarette ash inside the car. I'm aware
that this female was subsequently identified as Miss Gwen Grover.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
This account alone calls into question the assumptions made in
this case. Kim Baker says the car windows were up
the doors closed and Gwen was slumped down. Craig Locke,
the man who found Gwen's body, gave sworn evidence the
driver's side window was down and Gwen was sitting up,
which is why he initially leaned into the window to
(17:32):
ask if she was all right. One of them must
be wrong. If the initial investigation was lacking, what followed
was even worse. The key piece of evidence in Gwen's
death was, of course, the weapon, which allegedly calls the
fatal wound. The bullet was removed from Gwen's head and
(17:52):
sent to the coroner. The gun, of course, was also
sent to ballistics analysis. At least it should have been.
Speaker 12 (18:00):
I can't recall what happened to the firearm when it
was removed from Lake Street.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Ed Kinbacker does not know what happened to the gun
to this day, no one does. It exists. We can
see it clearly in the crime scene photographs, laying across
Gwen's lap, her right hand tightly gripping the barrel. Perhaps
the answer is in the former constable's written notebook.
Speaker 12 (18:25):
The Cannes Police Station maintains a notebook register which has
records going back to nineteen eighty I have searched my
own record holdings and caused this register to be searched
in an attempt to locate my contemporaneous nineteen eighty three
official police notebook. However, it has been unable to be located,
and in fact it appears that very few notebooks exist
(18:46):
on that register from the early nineteen eighties. I can
offer no explanation as to why my notebook from that
period is not held by Cann's police station. I have
no independent recollection. However, I can only presume that I
return the book to the thenice and cannot comment on
what happened to it, as the storage and retention of
these items were the responsibility of others more senior to
(19:09):
me with the department at that time.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Like the rifle Constable, Kinbacker's notebook vanished some time after
the investigation. Whenever questioned or interviewed, ed Kinbacker is keen
to point out how junior he was at the time.
Another key part of the initial investigation was interviewing anyone
who last saw gwhen alive, and those close to her.
(19:35):
Top of the list always with the firearm death of
a woman is the partner. Here is what ed Kinbacker
told the Cold Case Team in twenty twenty.
Speaker 12 (19:45):
I have been shown and read a copy of a
type witness statement in the name of Kenneth Cyril Soper,
dated thirty first of October nineteen eighty three. I have
observed that my signature is above E. K. Kinbacker. I
do not recall taking this statement from.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
S Here is a statement Kenneth Cyril Soper gave to
police on October thirty first, nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 13 (20:11):
I knew the deceased Gwen Lorraine Drover. I'd been living
in a de fact our relationship with her for a
period of six months. I last saw her on the
afternoon of Wednesday, the twelfth of October nineteen eighty three,
at approximately six pm. At the time, the deceased was
in the process of moving her belongings from my residence
at forty Sturt Street, Cannes. We had had an argument
(20:33):
and the relationship had broken down. She did not at
this time appear particularly emotionally disturbed, and she gave no
indication of a future actions. On the morning of the
thirty first of the tenth eighty three, I was shown
by police a rifle which was used by Gwen in
the suicide. It was my rifle, and I'd last seen
(20:54):
it in a spare bedroom of my house. On the
morning of Friday, the fourteenth of October nineteen eighty three,
I noticed when I arose that my bedroom cupboard had
been opened sometime during the night, and a point three
two five caliber rifle had been taken out of the
cupboard and leant against it. I assumed at this time
that at some time during the night I had opened
(21:14):
the cupboard and removed the rifle for unremembered reasons. On
the morning of Monday, the seventeenth of October, I was
informed by police of the deceased suicide. It was then
that I realized that the point three twenty five caliber
rifle which had been removed from my cupboard on the
fourteenth of October, must have been moved by the deceased
while she was searching for either the rifle or ammunition
(21:37):
for it.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
This doesn't make sense. We assume he's referring to his
other rifle, the one Gwen was shot with. Also the
claim it was a point three to two five rifle.
We'll get back to that soon.
Speaker 13 (21:50):
The rifle was located by the deceased in the spare
bedroom and I believe the ammunition was obtained from the
glove box of my car. The car is open at
all times when it's parked in my yard. Only after
being informed by police did I notice the articles. At
no time did the decease give any indication of her intentions,
(22:11):
and to the best of my knowledge, she had not
threatened or attempted anything of this nature previously.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
As you heard, it appears that Ken was never even
considered a person of interest in Gwen's death. The statement
is confusing and there seems to be a big chunk missing.
There have been attempts to explain this, but nobody really
knows for sure why. Here is how ed Kinbacker summed
it up to the cold case team, and this explanation
(22:38):
was accepted as reasonable.
Speaker 12 (22:41):
I can see that the statement is poor. Soper refers
to a gun in the house, which can be readily
inferred not to be the gun located in the car
with the deceased. I believe this is simply a matter
of poor wording, and the rifle located in the car
not having been particularized, which would have been detailed in
the exhibit book, which is no longer availed to review.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
This is verbatim from kim Backer's statement.
Speaker 12 (23:03):
It has been drawn to my attention that the final
paragraph on the first page does not appear to carry
on to the second page.
Speaker 13 (23:10):
Only after being informed by police did I notice the articles.
Speaker 12 (23:14):
I cannot account for this other than the statement was
produced on a typewriter, and there was likely a pause
whilst resetting the next page that impeded the flow of
the statement. I am aware that an adendum statement has
been taken from Soper by Detective Senior Constable Adam Dennian
on eighteenth of August twenty twenty, and that Sober recalls
(23:35):
that his statement was taken by a uniform female police officer.
I cannot account for Soper's recollection as a result of
my involvement in this investigation. I am familiar with the
names Ken Soper and Duncan Grover. I do not recall
having ever known them personally, and any interactions that I
may have ever had with them at any time would
more than certainly be only in my official capacity as
(23:57):
a police officer.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
This is crucial for several reasons. First, Constable Kinbacker and
the police waited seventeen days to interview Ken Soper from
whom Gwen had just separated after an argument. Two weeks
and three days passed before they decided to ask him
some questions. When they did, it wasn't to ask if
(24:23):
he was involved in her death. It was to tell
him that Gwen had killed herself. Here's where it gets
really messy. Ken Soper was interviewed by the cold case
team in August twenty twenty, and he gave this account
of the day of Gwen's death and the day's following.
Speaker 13 (24:41):
It was a day or so after Gwen's death Saturday,
the fifteenth of October nineteen eighty three or Sunday the
sixteenth of October nineteen eighty three. I heard from my
mother that Gwen was dead, and so I went to
Dale Kendall's house to ask her whether it was true.
Dale was a police officer I knew at the time,
and the only police officer I knew on a person basis.
Dale told me that she didn't know about Gwen, and
(25:03):
then she contacted the police station and confirmed that Gwen
was dead and that they wanted to speak to me.
I went straight down to the police station and met
with two male police officers. I presume they were detectives
as they were wearing plain clothes. I don't recall either
of their names. They asked me where I was on Friday,
fourteen October nineteen eighty three, and I told them that
(25:23):
I'd been down the Railway hotel after work and saw
our next girlfriend, Sinati Douglas and started drinking. Prior to that,
I'd been at work at North Queensland Engineers and Agents
from eight am until around four thirty pm. Whilst I
was at the police station, the two detective showed me
a rifle in a cupboard and a box of ammunition
which I recognized as the rifle and ammunition that should
(25:45):
have been at home in the war drove and the
glove box of my car respectively. I remember the two
detectives looking at each other and nodding, and then I
think they said that someone would be in touch to
take my statement. It was a couple of weeks later,
on thirty one Octome nineteen eighty three, when I reattended
the Kenn's police station and provided my statement to the
female uniform police officer.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
So, according to Ken Soper, the police never sought him out.
He went to a friend, a police officer. Then he
went into the station. Interestingly, Soper claims he gave his
nineteen eighty three statement to a female police officer, and
yet that statement is clearly signed by ed Kinbacker Police
Constable four double eight six. Soper says when he first
(26:31):
went to the station on the Saturday or Sunday, police
asked him where he was on Friday October fourteenth, the
day Gwen died. He tells them he was at work
from eight am and then out drinking with an ex girlfriend.
There is no record of Soper being questioned on his
whereabouts the day before, specifically the night before.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Hello, Hi Jerry, how are you going?
Speaker 14 (26:58):
Ourphime?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Jerry Thornton and is a retired police detective who is
helping Sue Cole investigate the circumstances of Gwen's death, the
subsequent police investigations and the coronial inquiry. You will recall
Sergeant Thornton hit a brick wall when he decided to
investigate the two thousand and nine accidental death of a
(27:19):
Queensland woman, Laney Corwall, who supposedly fell from a ladder.
Thornton was right, and the killer Laney's de facto partner,
Lewis James Marney, a former Northern Territory cop, was convicted
of murder and jailed for life, but that was only
after he butted heads with senior police who just wanted
the matter to go away.
Speaker 14 (27:42):
I know how hard it is to deal with the
police when you are a policeman. I just can't imagine
what it's like when you're not. But I can nia.
But they're not is in helping you? They just happy
not to talk to you at all. And what are
I saying to that original cause he sent me the
original forms if you want to call them that, and
there was just nothing me And how a Karner should
(28:03):
say write that offor is non suspicious is beyond me,
you know, like when I first looked at it, you know,
like it's fifty to fifty, Like mus suppose no suicides
where it's suspicious or non suspicious, but there's nothing needed
to determine it either way.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Are you convinced that with what suit believes that that
she couldn't have shot hers up?
Speaker 5 (28:25):
No?
Speaker 14 (28:25):
I'm probably the sort of person that you've always got
to have an open mind. But the thing that makes
you think more so than not, is that why has
there been the relaxance of police to release everything, like,
you know, first up, the first thing I tell her
to do was the right information, you know, And the
investigating officers can't find his notebook, his partner on that day,
(28:48):
can't find his notebook, the original file. This should be
kept forever. No, no, that's been lost, you know, like
you're kidding, aren't you. And yet the third copper that
was there, his notebook didn't get lost. They al should
be stored at the same room, at the same police station.
And then they said, oh, because the station has shifted
and all this and probably flooded or something. They easily
(29:09):
use that excuse. But why didn't the other falls not
book go missing? You know, like they said there was
no photos. Let's checked and yes, defended, there was photos.
You know, there was no blood alcohol certificate that blow
and bold at the cranial there was. So it's a
bit of a waste of time doing right information. When
they said no records could be found, there was records there,
(29:29):
all right.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
But and when you do that, and.
Speaker 14 (29:32):
It's like any you hear all these people where they
got a family, there were victims of crime. When they
try and find anything out, they just hit a brick wall.
And all that does is breed suspicion. And it's the
same with this one. You think, well, if you say
reluctant to release anything, why wouldn't we think there's something wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
In the seventeen days police took to interview Ken Soper,
a lot was happening, namely, key physical evidence from the
scene of her death was being lost for good. Incredibly,
Gwen Grover was cremated three days after she died. Two
of those days were the weekend and a full two
(30:16):
weeks before her ex partner was interviewed by police. Her
former husband Duncan says Gwen told him she didn't want
to be buried.
Speaker 15 (30:28):
She she always afraid of being put in the ground.
Speaker 6 (30:33):
She never wanted to be pod in the ground. She
made that quite clear.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Duncan Grover married Gwen in nineteen sixty eight, when she
was just sixteen years old. They separated twelve years later
in nineteen eighty. Sue Cole maintains that Gwen left Duncan
after finding him in bed with her friend Bet who,
as you've heard, denies that, claiming she and Duncan started
(31:00):
seeing each other after Gwen began her relationship with Ken
Sofa two years later. Regardless, when's the strange husband Duncan
Grover was the person responsible for her cremation.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
I don't know. It's one thing that I ask myself
all the time.
Speaker 9 (31:19):
You know why, I really can't.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
I can't come for any definite conclusion just to know
that she did it.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
She was right handed too. But she was shot in
the left temple. Did that seem to you strange?
Speaker 6 (31:32):
She shot herself up through the mouth.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I thought that they said the wound went through the
left temple, because I think Craig Locke found her with
the gun pointed up. But then when the police found her,
she was lying down right.
Speaker 6 (31:46):
I never told me that. I had to get identify her.
Speaker 15 (31:49):
And when they pulled the.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
Sheet back, both her eyes were black. How come she
caught black eyes?
Speaker 15 (31:56):
They said, Oh, that's consistent with a shot up through
the mouth, through the roof of the mouth.
Speaker 6 (32:00):
The brain that called your eyes to go black.
Speaker 8 (32:04):
Okay, yeah, because it is. It is a strange thing, but.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
Yeah, she's put the thing in her mouth and pulled
the trigger. That that I reckon.
Speaker 15 (32:13):
There was no other marks on her, no marks on
the temple or anything like that, not that I saw
her anyway?
Speaker 8 (32:19):
Yeah, how was it having to do that for you?
Speaker 6 (32:23):
Difficult?
Speaker 8 (32:24):
Have you ever seen a dead body before? Would you
ever forget it?
Speaker 9 (32:30):
No?
Speaker 8 (32:31):
Would you have ever got over something like that?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Do you think?
Speaker 5 (32:34):
No?
Speaker 6 (32:34):
Not really No.
Speaker 8 (32:36):
So the other thing is Beck was her best friend
at the time, well.
Speaker 15 (32:40):
Before you, yeahship quite a while, quite a few years.
Speaker 8 (32:46):
Is there anything else that you remember about that time?
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I mean when she saw you, the understanding what she
was going over to grab some stuff from Ken's before
she died?
Speaker 8 (32:57):
Did she say anything about that to you?
Speaker 6 (33:00):
Aren't?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And the details about the gun and how that was
all very sketchy.
Speaker 6 (33:05):
I never thought the weapon.
Speaker 15 (33:06):
I didn't know what it was, with the old action
or single action or tell me automatic, I don't know
what it was.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Do you think if Green was going to kill herself
that she would have used a gun?
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Well, didn't have anything else those I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
It just seems an odd choice. I mean women aren't
usually known for that. They'd usually use hills or something
like that.
Speaker 15 (33:27):
Yeah, she didn't put it where to make a mark
on her face or anything like that. She probably realized
enough she did up through them out there there would
be no marking.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, I was under the impression when I was just
looking at kim back as I thought, they said it
was it in her left temple.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
I never saw a mark there, And I looked at
her face and had a head in the face and her.
Speaker 15 (33:48):
Hair and all that sort of thing, and there was
no other mark on my face anywhere I looked at them.
In case you'd been beaten, That's why I asked about
dark rings around her eyes, and that's what they told me.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yeah. Do you think it's undeniable that she killed herself?
Speaker 6 (34:03):
Though?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I mean, the coroner could have come back with an
open finding and said maybe she did, maybe she didn't.
Were you surprised that it came back so adamant that
that was what actually happened given all the discrepancies.
Speaker 6 (34:15):
I didn't really give a lot of thought. In my mind,
I knew what happened.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
A lot of people don't think she did that, but
you're certain she did.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
This was the first conversation I had with Duncan, But
when I went to Cannes a couple of months later,
I caught up with him again, hoping to get more
clarity about what he recalls about his first wife's death.
Was it straight away from your memory ruled of suicide,
which is that all you ever knew at the time.
Speaker 9 (34:43):
Yeah, from a nice at the more Trio where I
identified her because I asked, and then you know what
happened here? And I think the log in charge the
mort you said he used to be a suicide because
she had black eyes. And I asked why her eyes
of you said, that's in conjunct with it being shot
(35:03):
up through the mouth.
Speaker 8 (35:04):
Do you know that she was actually shot in the town.
Speaker 9 (35:07):
I never saw any marks on the table. I looked
over her face everywhere or also there was the black eyes.
Put it in the mouth, up through the mouth.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Here Duncan demonstrates what he means, pointing his finger to
the roof of his mouth.
Speaker 8 (35:21):
Now do you remember what gun they said was used
at the time?
Speaker 9 (35:24):
Twenty two?
Speaker 8 (35:25):
So at the time they said it twenty two. But
the gun went missing, you.
Speaker 9 (35:28):
Know about that, right, And it was in the car.
Speaker 8 (35:31):
It was in the car, but then it went missing.
Speaker 9 (35:33):
Police must have got it. They're the only ones that
are there because somebody, somebody saw the body in the car.
She was sort of slefed over in the car and
thought it doesn't look right and call the police. As
far as I know, that's what happened.
Speaker 8 (35:47):
How long have you and Gwen been broken up when
she allegedly committed suicide.
Speaker 9 (35:53):
Oh, it was a couple of years, two or three
years before she went back to Boggle Broye and then
she was DN there for a year or over a year.
Speaker 8 (36:04):
Sharon Muckerty seemed to think that she was upset about
the breakup over you, but she didn't. She seemed to
get the timeframes wrong. And that's where the confusion was
when I was speaking with that, because she had she
thought that she'd just broken up with you, that she
had just discovered the relationship.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
But that was.
Speaker 9 (36:22):
Sharon was released canon. Sharon was, I wouldn't believe a
word she told you.
Speaker 8 (36:27):
Well, obviously the police did. When we spoke before. You said,
you believe that she committed suicide, but you also have
trouble believing she leave always.
Speaker 9 (36:36):
Right, Yeah, we bet and I both found out hard
to accept why she would do that too. Him, you know,
just couldn't work it out, he said, you know why,
we didn't know there was anything wrong. She'd just broken
up with Kennon a week you say, a couple of
weeks earlier than that, so I remember correctly, and we
(37:01):
thought she sort of moved on.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well, I got the impression that she's quite feisty, tea
a fighter.
Speaker 9 (37:07):
Not Oh yes, she had a few beers. She was
usually she used to tick up for herself, you know,
but after a few drinks.
Speaker 8 (37:17):
And she should fire up right.
Speaker 9 (37:20):
Like they're call him a lions or something.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Well, that's it. So that's the whole thing. I can't imagine.
And I think that's the argument of the family. Then
why would she just give up?
Speaker 9 (37:31):
That's the women's stool trying to work it out. For
this day, we still don't understand, you know, the same
with my son. When David hung himself, Why did he
do that, Whether it was something to do with his
mother still haunting him, he knows, he know what was
like to lose somebody he loved like that, and he
(37:54):
doesn't he's boys.
Speaker 8 (37:56):
Why you could have probably seen that David his.
Speaker 9 (38:00):
Mom died, though not really because he sort of moved
away and got married and they came up here a
couple of times, and you know, and and we didn't
have a lot of contact, whether his boys. We used
to see him on Facebook all the time, but we
didn't have much contact. We get a phone called occasionally
David Ring and have a chat on birthdays and Christmas time.
(38:23):
We'd always contact each other then, but apart from that,
we didn't sort of have any contact.
Speaker 8 (38:29):
You were closer to.
Speaker 9 (38:32):
Yeah, I had more contact because he used to make
the effort to come up here, and you know he
was when he separated from his wife. He sort of
got together another girl and she's related to Bet. The
other one we didn't know it at the time, and
she was BET's cousin, so we didn't know it now.
Speaker 8 (38:55):
The other thing is parent McKennon and when.
Speaker 9 (38:59):
Used to fight a lot after drinking.
Speaker 8 (39:01):
Did you have many fights with Gwen? I mean obviously
made she found out about you and Bet.
Speaker 9 (39:07):
No, there was never much problem over that because her
and Bet were friends. You know, we've been friends for
known each other. Our family has known each others for
six seven years probably.
Speaker 8 (39:20):
According to her family. The way she found out was
she walked in.
Speaker 9 (39:23):
On you and oh, she came over. I was in
bed because I was working late early morning starts to
the trucks and that I was in bed to sleep
and Bet was out in the kitchen with some of
a couple of the kids and talked. When she came
up and I come in and they says, yeah, come in,
come in. He thought, just won't sitting there ever talk
(39:45):
and she had, Well I wasn't. She said, he's in bed.
She went in there and oh, there you are. Well
it was on in better sleep.
Speaker 8 (39:56):
See. The confusion is is the family says that that's
when she grabbed the boys and went to brock bron.
Speaker 9 (40:04):
It's not straight away. It was weeks after she went
back down there.
Speaker 8 (40:09):
So she wasn't upset about that at the time because
again the family said.
Speaker 9 (40:13):
No, she just walked out there and she said to
me later on, I just had to see for myself
where you were.
Speaker 8 (40:19):
I was in bed, So in that sense, she just
wanted to confirm that.
Speaker 9 (40:23):
You guys, yeah, probably because someone else had told her.
Some of her friends are when they got pissed, they
you know, try to throw up trouble and the Lanes,
yeah did you know that big mouth. Yeah, yeah, we're
all good. Maybe used to party all the time together.
Speaker 8 (40:40):
But the Lanes said that they never believed she killed herself.
Speaker 9 (40:43):
They didn't. They didn't believe it.
Speaker 8 (40:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
So the other thing is that the family say and
I've got to put this to you to make sure
that they said that the reason she came down there
was because you guys had had a fight after she
found you and back together and that you but she
had a black eye or whatever, a black eye so
(41:06):
never never, no physical what about with Kemp.
Speaker 9 (41:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Duncan, as you've heard, claims Gwen had previously told him
she did not wish to be buried, But in his
statement to the cold case team, he said.
Speaker 16 (41:23):
I can't recall exactly when it was, but it was
before Gwen and I got married. She said to me
words to the effect of if I go before, you
promised me that you'll have me cremated. I'm not sure
who authorized her cremation.
Speaker 6 (41:35):
It wasn't me.
Speaker 16 (41:36):
I just presumed she made a wishes known to a family.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Gwen was cremated at the wang Dara Crematorium in Townsville
on eighteenth of October nineteen eighty three for and on
behalf of North Queensland Crematorium Limited. We have the application
for permission for cremation with statutory declaration held by the
North Queensland Crematorium dated octom Over eighteenth, nineteen eighty three.
(42:02):
It is filled out and signed by Duncan Roy Grover
and it costs ken Sofer two hundred and eighty five
dollars to cremate Gwen's body. Now, I know that there
was a big controversy over the cremation, and I know
it's got your your sintron it. But you don't remember
at the time that did they bring the forms up?
(42:24):
Maybe they just told you the science stuf because you
probably were Saadu the whole time.
Speaker 9 (42:27):
Yeah, I don't know. Actually he organized it with if
ken organized it appeal.
Speaker 8 (42:36):
Or he paid for it though, didn't it.
Speaker 9 (42:39):
Yeah, Yeah, I think he. I think he organized it
as far as asking it understood. I had nothing to
do with the organization of it. And he told me
that they'll take the ashes back to nar'brien bury him
in a family plot there. We went down for the funeral.
Speaker 8 (42:57):
It's what they did on the night that when you
were fixing your truck.
Speaker 9 (43:01):
Right, I was working. That wasn't not just working, you.
Speaker 8 (43:04):
Know, And you got the boys that day. You picked
the boys up.
Speaker 9 (43:07):
From her place late in the afternoon. Yeah, we bought
the last lader of her and a bit bought the
last lad of stuff over to the flat and the
boys come home with us. I don't even know what
day it was now, it was the weekend, right, Friday, Yeah, Friday,
that's right.
Speaker 8 (43:25):
Was that when she allegedly said, if anything happens to me, yeah?
Speaker 9 (43:29):
Well she said, oh, I said, if anything happened to me,
you look after the boys. And I said yeah, And
I said yeah, I said yeah, okay, I'll look after him.
And she said no, no, I mean I'm serious. If
anything does, anything should happen to me, promise me the
boys will be right with you. And I said yeah,
I said, what's going to happen to you?
Speaker 5 (43:49):
You know?
Speaker 8 (43:51):
Did she strike you as suicidal?
Speaker 9 (43:54):
Not really? We just thought of it after and after
she left said a bit. Yeah, it was a strange
thing she said.
Speaker 8 (44:01):
Did she seem scared?
Speaker 9 (44:06):
Not scared, just emotional?
Speaker 14 (44:09):
You know?
Speaker 9 (44:09):
It was yeah. But I just couldn't look at why
she would say, why she'd say that. I just couldn't
work that out.
Speaker 8 (44:15):
Okay. Lasted just a couple of questions about how did
you and bwend me?
Speaker 9 (44:18):
She used to work in a cafe and I met
her there in Bogaba.
Speaker 8 (44:22):
I guess there wouldn't have been a lot of people
your age. I mean, you guys probably fell into a
relationship because you guys are around the same age, or
did you.
Speaker 9 (44:30):
Yeah, she's a bit younger than me. Oh, I had
plenty of girlfriends when I was eighteen, nineteen, twenty three
or four at once on the go.
Speaker 8 (44:40):
So why did you Mary Blain?
Speaker 9 (44:41):
I don't know. Because she was pregnant one reason. Yeah,
I thought the right thing. You know.
Speaker 8 (44:46):
Did you ever think that it would be for life?
Speaker 9 (44:48):
Yeah, well you don't really know. We thought at the time. Yeah,
you did love her. Yeah, where do I still do?
We had thirteen and fourteen, you something married fifteens. I'm
I'm married.
Speaker 8 (45:03):
For a while, but you were separated for a long.
Speaker 9 (45:05):
Time before, Yeah, quite a while.
Speaker 6 (45:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (45:08):
Did she promise you a divorce?
Speaker 9 (45:09):
Well, I didn't bother about it. I thought, really, she
wants to divorce? Was she can? And apparently she got
papers and give me the papers to sign them, and
I'd sign them, but haven't given them back to her
when this happened. You know, I think she wanted to
get married, and she wanted to get married a ken.
That's as far as I knew. Anyway, Do you know
(45:31):
why they broke up, wouldn't have a clue.
Speaker 8 (45:33):
And I guess last week, how did you find out
about her death?
Speaker 9 (45:36):
Someone someone said to be I just saw Gwen's car
on the back of a tow truck going somewhere, and
she thought, oh gee, that's strange because she hadn't been
able to pick the boys up. So she started ringing
around to see she actually rung the police, or I'm
not really sure that anyway, Then she did ring the police,
(45:56):
and she told her who she was and who I
wasn't in that know, and so we'll send the carry out.
She's what, what's up? We'll just send a carry out?
They send a carry out to police in it? Yes,
when they tell me?
Speaker 8 (46:11):
And what was your reaction?
Speaker 9 (46:13):
Shit?
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Did they ever treat you like you could have possibly
killed him? So they didn't ask you? Did you kill it?
Speaker 9 (46:21):
Not very cool? Or no? I don no, no, I
don't remember.
Speaker 8 (46:25):
Did they even ask you what you were doing that night?
Speaker 6 (46:29):
No?
Speaker 5 (46:30):
I never ever liked Duncan. It was as simple as that.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
This is Irene, Gwen's older sister.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
There was just something about him. He was older than
Gwen for a start. I just I just didn't like him.
But you know, the feeling was mutual. He didn't like
me neither, so because I was too straight for him,
I think, And I knew what he was, you know,
I just knew that he wasn't any good for Gwen.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Irene says when Gwen fled to Bogo Bright in nineteen eight,
Duncan was reluctant to give her any money for the boys' expenses.
Speaker 5 (47:04):
Well, I used to get it out of him.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
I'd go and say to him, look, these children need
so many T shirts, so many shirts, so many shoes, socks, underwear,
whatever to take to school. You know, they had to
have clothes to go to school. And I just said him,
you need to give me money, because I looked after
(47:27):
them for a little while, for a couple of weeks
while when went back to.
Speaker 5 (47:30):
Cans and several things up there to come back.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
To Boggle Bright, and it was like getting blood.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
Out of a stone.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
But I just stood there and demanded that he give
me money to buy those things for his children. And
he ended up doing it. And when she come back,
we had a bit of a trouble because she said
that I was the only one that she knew that
had ever gotten anything out.
Speaker 5 (47:54):
Of Duncan fortunately had no choice. Remember the wedding, Yeah,
I remember the wedding. I was at the wedding.
Speaker 8 (48:03):
Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 6 (48:04):
Well?
Speaker 2 (48:04):
It was a really it was a good occasion and
his family were there and my family were there, and
all the ones that were hit living where we were
were there and it.
Speaker 5 (48:14):
All went down very well.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
My sister Gwen, she was really really happy and looked beautiful.
Speaker 8 (48:20):
When did you know the marriage was in trouble.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
I knew it was in trouble, probably maybe after was
born the first child. I knew that there was something
going on because he was very controlling, you know. I
didn't want her doing this, and didn't want her doing that,
and didn't want her taking the car. And he'd look
at the mileage on the on the speedo and then
(48:44):
check it again when he came home from work to
see if she'd been anywhere.
Speaker 5 (48:48):
You know, he was one of those people.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Irene was three years older than Gwen, who was the
middle child. The children comprised Lilian the eldest, followed by Irene, Stan, Gwen, Margaret,
twins Christopher and Christine, and then Sue. Christopher died in infancy.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Christopher I think back in those days because they didn't
know anything about it.
Speaker 5 (49:12):
But I think it might have been sids and Gwen.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
She was a happy little kid. I didn't have a
great lot to do with her. We sort of classed
her as the younger ones, you know, and we were
far too old to be worried about the younger ones, as.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
You do when your kids. But no, she was always happy.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
At one stage she went and lived with my Nana
because Mum just felt that she wasn't doing well because
of the size of the family that she was, you know,
perhaps being left out because you know, my brother and
I sort of, you know, did our thing, and then
the little kids so sort of did their thing. So
(49:54):
she was sort of in the middle of that lot,
and she enjoyed that.
Speaker 5 (49:59):
She was fun until right up until then she got married.
Speaker 8 (50:04):
Can you tell me about the funeral for David. I mean,
obviously that was a big glow. I mean, did anyone
see that coming?
Speaker 2 (50:10):
No, no, we didn't. I didn't anyway, I always knew
that David. You know, David was very close to his mum.
Whereas is the spitting image of his father to look
at to him speak, he is Duncan over and over,
but young David, he was more of a gentle soul,
(50:31):
and he was very much like his mom, and he
missed his mum from day one because he was only
very very young. When my sister passed away, I begged
Duncan to let me take the children because I knew
that they wouldn't have a very good life with him,
and he wouldn't allow me to have the kids. And
(50:53):
he took them back to Cans with him and ended
up with the woman that he had when Gwen left
in and she had children. When Gwen passed away and
they came down for the funeral, he came to the
house after and I just can't remember what happened. And
(51:14):
when he wouldn't let me have the children, I just
said to him, you know, you can just leave, and
I actually threatened him. I actually said to him that
if he ever set foot on my doorstep again, I'd
put an axe in his head. That's what I said
to Duncan. That's how devastated I was, and I never
ever wanted to see him again, and I never ever
(51:36):
did until David's funeral, and then he had the hide
to come up to me and want to hug me.
This was after Gwen's inquest. He never spoke, never even
tried to attempted to speak to me up there, and
I just I just walked away. I just took my
head in discussed and walked away. I've got done him
to come near me, mate.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
I had to ask Irene why she like su Dan
was so determined to keep trying to get answers about
her sister's death.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
My motive is to clear the stigma off my sister's
name and to get justice for her, because I do
not believe that she committed suicide.
Speaker 5 (52:17):
That's as simple as that, and I'd like her name
clear completely.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
There was no way in the world that I was
going to believe that my sister committed suicide.
Speaker 5 (52:28):
She had those two boys. She was fantastic mother with
those boys. She loved those boys, and there's no.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Way she would left them for Duncan to have any
access to for Duncan to rare completely by himself. If
she was going to do that, she would have made
arrangements for those boys, and she didn't. So there's no
way I will never ever believe that she took her
own life.
Speaker 8 (52:54):
And what do you think happened?
Speaker 2 (52:56):
I think that something's happened up there. I'm not sure
what happened. I really don't know. She could have found
out something about all these yah who fellas and they've
threatened her, or she's threatened them because she was a
little bit feisty, and I don't know.
Speaker 5 (53:17):
I really don't know.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Irene recalls when they first learned of Gwen's dead.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
My husband was down because he used to do some
casual work at the Railway Hotel in Robbi Bry and
he found out and came home and told me, and
then I rang Mom and Dad to make sure that
they were going to be at home so that I
could go and see them. But you know, I didn't
say what was wrong. So we went up to Gannadad
(53:44):
to Mum and dad and we had to tell mom
and dad what had happened. There was tears a lot
of tears, and I think it was just disbelief, disbelief
that they couldn't they couldn't understand what had happened because
previously too that Gwen had been home. She came home
(54:05):
and bought Ken with her to introduce him to Mum
and dad, and you know, and they spent a few
days with Mum and Dad before they went back to Cannes.
Speaker 5 (54:16):
They were just devastated about the whole situation.
Speaker 8 (54:19):
What did they think of Ken?
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Well, they seem to they seemed to like him, all right.
I hated him, But that's beside the point.
Speaker 8 (54:28):
Why did you hate him?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
I just didn't like him. I just did not like him.
There was just something about him. I either liked people
or I don't. They would be a lot alike, and
they were friends. He knew Duncan, and I'm sure that
they all knew each other because Can's back in those days,
(54:50):
was a very small place. It was just an old, little,
old country town.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Irene remembers her dad's efforts to find out what really
happened to Gwen. He also never believed she took her
own life.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Dad trying to find out as much as he could.
You know, he kept bringing the Cann's police almost daily,
and they kept saying to him that it was insufficient evidence.
Speaker 5 (55:16):
That's all I kept saying to end, that they had
insufficient evidence.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Because Dad wanted to know what happened and how did
it happen, and what took place and almost sort of thing,
you know, and they just kept saying to him that
there was insufficient evidence, so he died, never ever knowing.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
The failings in the nineteen eighty three police investigation have
come to light thanks largely to Sue's persistent work to
discover the circumstances of her sister's death. Gwen's family and
friends have only recently become aware of the details of
the initial investigation, and it has convinced them that Gwen
did not act alone in the final hours of her life.
(55:58):
Still be remains that Gwen killed herself. Can you describe
her to me? But the sort of person she was,
you know, what she liked? I mean, the thing that
seems to be consistent. She was a doting mother.
Speaker 4 (56:11):
She was is her voice come very sickond?
Speaker 1 (56:14):
And last, Yeah, what do you actually think happened to Gwen?
Do you believe that she could kill herself?
Speaker 4 (56:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (56:21):
Why is that?
Speaker 4 (56:23):
When she gets angry? She did say angry?
Speaker 2 (56:25):
Mate?
Speaker 4 (56:26):
And yeah, well you never know what an alcoholic does
when they're drunk. Yeah, I didn't even know kinhead guns.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
Okay, So is there anything else you wanted to say
at all?
Speaker 9 (56:39):
Bet?
Speaker 1 (56:39):
I mean, obviously it's a long time ago, but it's
something you'd never forget, right, No, you.
Speaker 4 (56:45):
Couldn't forget it. Not no way could you forget it.
It's done, realized, says he. You just let it go
and let the girl do be in peace. It's just
not good.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
I think from sus whose point of view is she
doesn't I mean, aside from you and Duncan and Sharon,
everyone else believes that she didn't do it. So I
guess it's from her point of view she wants to
try and clear her name. I suppose because it's such
a stigma to have against you.
Speaker 4 (57:15):
Yeah, well, it's that's true, very true.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
Yeah, and maybe if you know, the boys would know.
I guess you know, but maybe David might still be
alive if if his mum hadn't died in that awful way.
Speaker 4 (57:30):
He never ever, ever, never never, It's horrible. I mean
he had you remember that far back. For God's sake,
you know, I remembered something. I've nearly lost my memory now,
said bloody.
Speaker 9 (57:46):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (57:46):
I hope you get to the bottom of it. No,
I don't believe, not once else he believes that she
didn't shoot as well she did.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Well, Bet, thank you so much for your time. I
really appreci she had it.
Speaker 8 (58:01):
You have a good rest of the day.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
You to take care.
Speaker 4 (58:04):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
Gwen's son David never got over his mother's death. Unable
to fathom how she could choose to leave him, he
took his life on the twenty third of May twenty twenty.
Next lost evidence, changed stories, recovered memories, and the gun
(58:30):
that didn't exist.
Speaker 14 (58:31):
The only problem was point three two fives weren't vented
to the early two thousands. Hey, you can make that
mistake is beyond me.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
The police reenactment of Gwen's death with your.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
Right hand around the muzzle, face the muzzle to the
left temple, and with your left hands attempt to operate
the trigger.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
And we introduce stunning new evidence from the ex wife
of Ken Soper, who left him not long before he
started going out with Gwen, but knowing.
Speaker 6 (59:01):
Him at the time.
Speaker 5 (59:03):
I said to whommever I was talking to, Well, she
wouldn't have just done that.
Speaker 8 (59:09):
Either he did it or he caused her.
Speaker 6 (59:12):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot Au
(59:39):
or leave us an anonymous tip at shot Inthdark dot
com dot au. If this podcast has raised issues for you,
please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them
at www dot lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 7 (01:00:00):
This podcast is brought to.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
You by me presenter and journalist Alison Sandy. If you
like what you're hearing, please rate and review our podcast.
It helps other listeners find us special thanks to my writer,
producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's sister and tireless campaigner for Justice
(01:00:23):
Sue Cole, sound designer Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before
our theme music is by Bob Kronk the First and
there is a link to his music on Spotify in
the show notes.
Speaker 9 (01:00:41):
When Away Such Swirm, the Pains and Shot in the
Dark is a seven News production.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.