March 5, 2023 • 58 mins
We unearth stunning new evidence that casts new light onto the death of Gwen Grover.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why can't we find out what happened? Why won't anyone
help us?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It was not suicide, There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Shot in the Dark Episode four. When the Queensland Attorney
General ordered the coroner to hold an into the death
of Gwen Grover in December of twenty nineteen, it triggered
a flurry of long overdue activity. The police Cold Case
(01:10):
Investigation Team was assigned to review the evidence, interview witnesses
in the case, including those who have been completely overlooked
in the original investigation. They also assigned the Police Ballistics
Unit to undergo a reconstruction.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
It is Monday, the thirteenth September twenty twenty one. My
name is Bevan Mactelow, Senior Sergeant with the Ballistics Unit,
Scientific Section of the Queensland Police Service. I'm here at
the Yumanto Police Station to conduct some shooting reconstruction testing
for our coming coronial in quest of Gwen Grover. This
testing will be using three female test subjects and test
(01:50):
their ability to operate the trigger of a firearm while
seated in a vehicle.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
For Sue Cole, this promised to be another vindication of
her decades of work raising awareness about Gwen, and she
had high hopes of a breakthrough that would show, at
the very least her sister did not kill herself. For
the reenactment, a member of the public provided a nineteen
seventy five Chrysler Gallant, the same car Gwen was found in.
(02:21):
Three female test subjects were used, all about Gwen's build,
with one slightly shorter, one the same height, and one
slightly taller.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
The rifles they'll be using today. The first one is
a twenty two long rifle caliber Squire's Bingham made Sterling
Model twenty self loading Remphire rifle. This rifle has been
sourced from the Ballistics Unit Reference Collection and has been
chosen based on the postmodern report of a twenty two
(02:53):
long rifle caliber projectile being located and based on features
of a firearm scene in the limited scene photographs from
nineteen eighty three. This rifle has at least some of
those features, not quite all, but none of the firearms
within the Ballistic Unit Reference Collection have all features that
are observed in the photographs.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
The reason they have to use three different rifles is
because the original was lost and cannot be properly identified
from the handful of crime scene photographs tocharge. They can
only use rifles in the Ballistics Units collection with the
firing bolts removed around They asked the test subjects to
use the right hand to grip the end of the
muzzle and try to fire the rifle with their non
(03:36):
dominant left hand.
Speaker 5 (03:38):
Can you reach the trigger?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
The test subject is indicated yes. Can you push it
all the way?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Where? Would yes?
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Test subject is indicated.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
That you can do that?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
And would you be able to push the trigger further
if it was a longer reach? Yes, and the test
subject is indicated yes.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
All three test subjects run identical tests with two of
the rifles. All say they can reach and press the
trigger with their left thumb.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
This is the third test today. This test is using
a firearm that hasn't been disassembled, so the breech bolt
is still in place, and this allows to test the
ability with an outstretched left hand whether the firing pin
can be released in the rifle. The actual rifle being
used is another Squire's being a Sterling Model twenty the
same as rifle one. So the firearm is copped and
(04:26):
we'll just ask test subject number one to reach with
an outstretched left hand as far as you can reach
to see if they can pull the trigger whilst the
barrel pointed in a safe direction.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
And you can hear the click and that sound of
the firing pin being released. That test was done with
the subject standing next to the rifle resting on a
bench pointing upwards for safety, as the firing pin had
not been removed. All three female test subjects could push
the trigger with their outstretched arm as.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
We're seen in the videos. Each of the test subject.
Test subjects was able to who manipulate the trigger with
their non dominant left hand.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
While seated in the car that was closed, and operate.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
The trigger, and each test subject indicated that they could
have reached somewhat further also is required.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It's difficult to understand what value this re enactment has.
It's unknown what actual model of rifle was used. There's
no way of knowing what condition it was in and
how much pressure would be needed to pull the trigger.
Former decorated police detective Jerry Thornton agrees.
Speaker 7 (05:34):
Mankello does re enactment, and I said at the beginning
this is a waste of time. But anyway, he's done
this re enactment. The only thing that was consistence. They
had the same concerted car that Green was in. But
he gets three I think females, two police officers, one
a mean similar sizing to Green. But he's using a
gun which we don't even know is the right gun.
(05:58):
He's using that gun, so he doesn't know what Gwenn's
wingspan was. He doesn't know if she's strong or weak.
He doesn't know if she had good balance or not,
you know, And he knows nothing about it, and really
nothing about the rifle because rifles varying length, and even
though council assistings seemed to be pushing him towards a
sterling rifle, he admits in the end that he hasn't
(06:21):
got a clue what the gun was. But it was
semi automatic. He says it was semi automatic, and Gwen
Grahame in his statement says it's semi automatic, but incredibly
say for the men that uses it, says, no, it's
all as.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
More on the gun later. As for the re enactment,
none of the test subjects were affected by alcohol, and
as Jerry observed, we don't know that arm span in
relation to Gwen's. In short, apart from showing that a
rifle can be fired, it doesn't appear to confirm anything.
I asked Jerry about the elephant in the room.
Speaker 7 (07:00):
Well, there's lots of elops. There's quite a few elephants
getting around in Keynes. But just you know, I'll just
add back to the gun. He actually says he does
press the test on the trigger and it's at one
point take kilograms required to follow the rifle. He produces
photographs of the rifles, but it admits it's not the
(07:20):
same rifle as he pressed the tests, and it's not
the same rifle as he used in the reenactment, And
you think, well, what what's.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
The good of this.
Speaker 7 (07:30):
I just don't understand where any of it that's relevant.
Why I produce these photos when it's not a rifle
that is either pres to test or using the reenactment.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
The crime scene photos upon which the reenactment was based
are distressing as you would expect, but they are also
striking because they are unusual, unlike similar images we see
in these investigations.
Speaker 7 (07:52):
And the reenactment was comical because her feet are placed
odd leave in the car where the gun ends. Uples
are actually white. Her knuckles on her hand are actually white,
basically holding the barrel. I don't know how that can
possibly happen, because once you get shot in the head,
as far as I know, and the post modem says
(08:13):
the brain was shattered, so if you sat of their
brain usually you lose all muscle control, so everything relaxes.
But her right hand's gone from holding a barrel to
or left temple across in front of her somehow dodging
the steering wheel which is close in a small car,
and leaning across the lab with a hand sort of
(08:35):
past We turned eddy clockwise over the barrel and gripped
at that type and her knuckles are white. As I said,
I'm not saying it's murder and I'm not saying it's suicide,
but there's that many inconsistencies that need reinvestigating, reviewing.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
It is unusual to see a suicide victim gripping the
end of the barrel of a long rifle the way
Gwen did. This is something we will pursue with a
forensic expert. The cold case team did not question it
in their report to the coroner. They did track down
(09:12):
a number of witnesses. They identified forty four witnesses. Seventeen
were deceased, one a laboratory analyst could not be found.
Statements were obtained from fourteen people. Beman Magdalow, the police
officer from the ballistic section who did the re enactment,
was interviewed. Here's the final paragraph.
Speaker 8 (09:33):
Senior Sergeant Mandaloke made no comment as to the deceased's
ability to perform such an act, including her ability to
reach the trigger in such a position, or the ability
of her left hand to activate the trigger.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
That assessment appears to confirm Jerry Thornton's opinion that the
re enactment was a complete waste of time. Among the
other witnesses were Gwen's siblings. A police officer filed this
written account of an interview with Gwen's brother Stanley.
Speaker 9 (10:05):
The witness, Stanley Henniford, called Duncan Grover when he heard
the deceased had died. The witness wanted the body to
be buried in New South Wales, near the grandmother. The
witness was advised by Grover the deceased wished to be cremated,
and the process had started. The witness asked for the
ashes to be sent to New South Wales, which occurred
a short time after this, a wake was held in
(10:27):
New South Wales. Duncan, Grover and Ken's Soper arrived together
in a four wheel drive. During the wake, the witness
talked to Grover and Soper in private as he wanted
more information about the death and the weapon used. The
witness spoke to Grover, who said, have you ever seen
someone who had been shot in the forehead with a bullet?
He went on to say that he was surprised by
(10:49):
the small wound. The witness thought this inappropriate and went
to Soper and spoke to him. The witness asked Soper
about the weapon and was told, sorry, mate, it's my fault.
The rifle in the boot of the car. I borrowed
Gwen's car to go shooting and left the rifle in
the boots. The witness asked if it was his rifle
and he said yes. The witness asked what type of
(11:10):
weapon it was and was told a Mauser type rifle.
The witness is ex army and aware of a Mauser
type weapon is a large caliber weapon, and was confused
by the statement of Grover that there was a small
entry wound. The witness said to Sofa, that seems a
bit weird because Gwen wouldn't know how to operate a rifle.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Gwen's brother Stan recalled Ken, identifying the weapon that caused
Gwen's death a rifle he had left in the boot
of his car, not in his cupboard, as he told police.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Well, the first first blog I spoke about it was Ken. Sofa.
They have the memorial service in ARNI said, wild, I've
never met you before, and I said, I was a
bit angry when I got taught. I said, what where
did she get this bloody young from? Like she pused
me into guards, none of the girl's and my wife
only where I was telling boy I had guns, but
the girls never wouldn't even know the first thing about him.
(12:01):
And I said, where did she get it from in
the first place? He said, mate, I'm sorry. He said
that was my fault. Was I left it in the
boot of a car. I'd borrow it the car the
day water go shooting, and I left it in the boot,
and I said, well, what sort of a gun was it?
He said it was a mouser a German Mauser, like
a second war coopory weapon. And I said, well, she
really much of a head. Left who to head up
(12:21):
with a mouser board? And I sort of left her that.
Then I got talking to Duncan Gray with a husband,
and I said, what do you make of all this?
And he said, we don't know it. I said, well,
did you hear that it was a German was a rifle?
But she shot us off with it allegedly, and he said,
only I don't think so, because they said the shot
was too small. He said, you ever seen someone he
(12:43):
shot in the head and I said, yes, I have,
but I don't want to talk about that. But he
said it was only a small board. Repeated do him
to be a small board? And I said, right, well
that's that. Then when we got the report back from
this solicitor, the initial report and the police report that
has done here, it said it mentioned to her the
color of the weapon, but then later on there was
talk of a twenty two color of a carbridge, and
(13:05):
then it went on with the favors of the body
on the seat of the car with the twenty two
lane underneath it, like you know, the friend of your
color of rifles. So that's I think yourself. There's two
weapons involved here, one say, for told me about it
was in the boot, and the one that was in
the report was a cal of a weapon, and now
they talked about a twenty two. So I shadow, I
got to think it's all of something not right. Here
(13:26):
is a confusion of the weapons will start and where
is the weapon? And see got onto the wallistics expert
and he said all those as you know. I thought
it was a bit strange at the time, but I
never got the weapon. I got the rounds. I then
got the weapon to compare it with the weapon.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Stan is referring to the former Scientific Officer for Policing Cans,
Glenn Kanowski, who provided this statement to the cold case team.
Speaker 10 (13:51):
I recall being contacted a few months ago by the
sister of Gwen Grover. I recall being provided at the
time with copies of some of the documents I have
listed about. I record during this conversation talking about the
fact that I did not receive the rifle associated with
the investigation, and that the Scientific section would receive and
examine the firearm used in most suspected suicide cases. I
(14:15):
can say that it was common for the firearm used
in cases of suspected suicide by gunshots to be forwarded
to the scientific section for examination, including an attempt to
verify that the recovered projectile had been fired from the firearm.
It is not possible to make this determination in all
cases due to damage to the projectile. This type of
(14:37):
examination did not take place in every case of suspected
suicide by gunshot.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Back to Stan it was two scenarios.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
Yes, once she did suicide, and the growing in questions
are and why do it here? The second one is
that she was lured here and shot. I think she was.
Actually I think there was a very a rendezvous here,
arranged to meet here, because in those days there's no
mobile phones, there's no phones anywhere. I think she is
(15:07):
there was arranged meeting here. That a partigul of time.
So either get the rifle out of the book, which
did be left from the book, or to talk over
their their breakdown, their relationship. So you think it's Ken, well,
I think sir him, or someone who's paid to do it,
or a third party that we don't.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Know about what do you want to see done?
Speaker 5 (15:29):
Well, we want justice, we want a name Cleid, but
we want to want Wedn's name Cleid and it wouldlate
it is safe for opinion. Would be nice to have
a name Clid. You say it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
All parties will say, well, we gave you an inquest.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Well, the inquest was only even at the time I said,
the waste of time us going up with the inquest
because it's the terms of reference to all about clearing
the police of their of them not doing their job
on the initial investigation, and that it was the curran
has finding his words. They were cleared. They did the
best they could at the time, even though it was
a select investigation onward.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
According to the Coroner's Findings, published on the ninth of
November twenty twenty one, the terms of reference for the
inquest were limited to one section forty five of the
Coroner's Act two thousand and three, which is to find out,
if possible, what caused the person to die and the
adequacy of the original investigation by the Queensland Police Service
(16:31):
as to why that was the case. Well, we'll get
to that later. The cold case investigation team stated in
its report that on fourteenth of July twenty twenty, the
reporting officer, Detective Acting Sergeant Adam Denian, was apprized of
the associated ministerial file and tasked to review the circumstances
(16:52):
of the deceased person's death and the original police investigation.
One of the statements they taken from Gwen's former husband,
Duncan Grover. He's an excerpt of what he had to say.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
I do remember Thursday, the thirteenth of October nineteen eighty three,
Gwen had recently moved into a new flat after breaking
up with a boyfriend, Ken Soper. Bet actually helped Gwen
move into the unit. I think it would have been
around four or five o'clock. It was after I'd finished work.
In any case, Bet and I went around at Gwen's
place and picked up the boys. As Gwen asked if
(17:25):
I could look after them that night while we're at Gwen's.
She said to me, promise you'll look after the boys.
I said, yeah, no problem, of course I will. Gwen said, no,
I mean it, promise me if anything happens to me,
you'll look after them.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
She seemed to.
Speaker 6 (17:41):
Say this more seriously, and I said, of course, I will,
nothing's going to happen to you. I didn't think much
of it at the time and basically shrugged it off.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Duncan ended his statement to the cold case team with
this line.
Speaker 6 (17:53):
To this day, I have no idea what happened with Gwen.
The police at the time told me it was a suicide,
but I can't think of any reason Gwen would want
to do that.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And Gwen's ex partner, Ken Soper, also gave a statement.
Speaker 11 (18:05):
In addition to my original statement, I wish to provide
the following information to expand on and or clarify what
I have previously stated in relation to the death of
Gwen Lorraine Grover in cans On or about the fourteenth
of October nineteen eighty three. I cannot recall the name
of the female uniform officer that took my statement, and
(18:25):
I do not know Constable Kinbacker. I am currently married
to stella An Soper, and we've been married since two
thousand and one. I was previously married to Pamela. Pamela
and I married in the Northern Territory in nineteen seventy
six and we had two children together. As outlined in
my original statement, I knew Gwen Rover prior to her death.
(18:47):
We'd been in a de facto relationship for about six months.
I first met Gwen at a party. Gwen and I
hit it off at the party, and our relationship progressed
from there. Gwen used to drink a fair bit. I
wouldn't say to the point that you would call her
a drunk, but she did have a beer and a
smoke at Smoko. I never saw Gwen take any kind
of illegal drug, and as far as I know, she
(19:09):
wasn't interested. I believe Gwen was on a pension and
was also working as a cleaner, but she never had
any savings to speak of as far as I'm aware.
As far as I know, Gwen had no mental health issues,
and I don't think she ever saw a psychologist. I
don't think she even had a regular doctor, and if
she did need to see anyone, I can only presume
(19:29):
that she'd have gone to the hospital. To the best
of my knowledge, Gwen was right handed. In the first
paragraph of my original statement, I mentioned an argument that
I'd had with Gwen prior to her moving out of
my house at forty Sturt Street. The argument occurred after
we'd been out Gwen, the boys, David, and myself. When
we got home, Gwen went to open the front door,
(19:51):
and as she opened the door, David tried to push through,
and I stopped him and told him he should wait
for his mother to went to first whilst I recall
stopping David, but I'm not sure exactly what I did,
but that's what started the argument. It appeared to me
that David was Gwen's favorite child, and I guess she
took it more seriously, which I think is why she
(20:11):
decided to move out. I don't know where she moved to,
and it would have been at least a week prior
to her death that she and the boys moved out.
I usually left my house open, and if I did
lock it, there was a key left out for David
if they needed it. In nineteen eighty three, I used
to own quite a few rifles. I can't remember exactly
(20:31):
what I had, but my collection included a point two
two two and a Winchester forty four. It was probably
about twenty rifles all up. None of those rifles were
semi automatic, but one was a pump action twenty two,
which I sold a long time ago. I don't have
anywhere near as many rifles anymore, but I do still
have the point two two two in the Winchester forty four.
(20:54):
I have shown DSc Denny in these rifles and can
said to him taking a photo of the point two
two two. In my original statement there is a reference
to one of my rifles going missing from the wardrobe
in my bedroom. That statement lists that firearm as ap
point three two five, which is incorrect. The firearm that
was taken was the twenty two that belonged to Glen Graham.
(21:16):
Glenn used to live at I had been in possession
of it prior to Gwen's death and kept it in
the built in wardrobe in the main bedroom at home,
which I owned and was on the corner of Sturton's
Venson Streets with my other rifles. I am aware that
this is the rifle that was located with Gwen on
fourteen October nineteen eighty three, and I'm pretty sure the
(21:36):
police returned the rifle to Glenn as I didn't want
anything to do with it after Gwen's death. I don't
know what became of the rifle after that. Over the years,
I have contemplated what happened to Gwen. To this day,
I struggled to believe that Gwen took her life, and
I am more than willing to continue assisting the police
with any future investigation.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Lot to unpack there After thirty eight years, Ken Soper
suddenly remembers that the rifle Gwen used was not his,
but one belonging to a friend named Glenn Graham. It
was not left in the boot of his car. It
was back in the cupboard. The point three two five
(22:21):
caliber rifle he told police about in nineteen eighty three
is now a point two two. That might be because
the point three to two five model was produced twenty
years after Gwen's death in two thousand and five. You
may recall Jerry Thornton's thoughts on that from the first
episode Yeah You've Got.
Speaker 7 (22:40):
A Job, that was in nineteen eighty three, where the
ex boyfriend comes out and says, yeah, basically it was
my guns he used. It was a point three two five.
The police sort of say it's a point three two
five and the diosasion of it and the problem was
zero point three two files weren't invented till the early
(23:02):
two thousands. Hey, you can make that mistake is beyond me.
I think in the cornial they said it was a
type was something ridiculous like that, But you're talking about
a really, really high powered gun, and sober who allegedly
owned the gun any statement, he says, it's a point
(23:24):
three too five and he owns the gun. But they
weren't invented. But that's all right, we'll just brush over
that one because that doesn't look good. Thirty eight years later,
he all of a sudden remembers who had owned the gun,
and it was his mate, Glenn Graham. Now I don't
know why you wouldn't remember that two weeks after the event,
(23:46):
but you do thirty eight years later. So they go down.
They tracked that good Earl Glenn Loans in the gun,
but then they don't call Glen as a witness. I
think that's unforgivable.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
In his statement to the cold case team, Ken Soper
also gave his version of the argument that led to
Gwen leaving him with her two boys, that Ken had
stopped young David from entering the house before Gwen, though
he didn't say how he physically intervened. He also revealed
he was married before he met Gwen, to a woman
(24:21):
named Pamela. The cold case team tracked down Pamela, including
this in their report.
Speaker 12 (24:28):
The witness is the ex wife of Ken Sober. On
sixth of August twenty twenty, the investigating slash reporting officer
attended the witness's residence and personally spoke with the witness
in relation to this matter. The witness, whilst aware of
this matter, stated that she has no direct knowledge of
it as she had left Cans prior to the deceased
person's death and as such does not want to provide
(24:52):
a statement.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
No statement was taken. No evidence from Pamela was included
in the investigation. What did him? Investigators ask her. Well,
we also tracked Pamela down, So Pamela, Yeah, so this
is just for I guess for the podcast, just to
get a bit of an understanding on the sort of
(25:15):
because unfortunately, as you know, Ken is no longer around.
I don't know if you'd heard about that, had you all?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yes? I had?
Speaker 13 (25:25):
Yeah, I mean, it's not a time in my life
that I care to revisit. He was a truly horrible person.
But who is the woman who's died? Did you're doing?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Her name was Gwn Grover and anyway, he was a
suspect in relation to her untimely death. That was in
nineteen eighty three. Have you ever heard of this? Have
anyone ever contacted you about it before?
Speaker 13 (25:46):
Is she the woman who was supposed to have shot
herself with a rifle?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Correct?
Speaker 13 (25:52):
Ah, I did have some homicide men come around to
visit me here some months ago. I don't know if
it was in relation to that or not, but they
were asking about him. That was prior to his dying.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Look. I heard about that incident.
Speaker 13 (26:11):
Through my sister in law who happened to be in
a doctor's surgery one morning and she saw it on
the news or something and told her brother.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
I told her husband, of course, who's my.
Speaker 13 (26:22):
Brother, and he told me, which is how I found
out about that. But I really don't know anything. I
have no first and knowledge or anything about it. But
knowing him at the time, I said to whomember I
was talking to, well, she wouldn't have just done that.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Either he did it or he caused her to do it.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Are you able to tell? Was was he a violent man?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Or Oh?
Speaker 13 (26:49):
He was incredibly violent. He was a horrible, horrible man.
And you know this is something that I don't talk
about ever to anybody. He he was found guilty of
(27:10):
indecent dealing with.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah, so that was so. That was how I got
away from it.
Speaker 13 (27:20):
Actually, I you know, while while it's yourself, you sort
of kick Oh well, bet it's made.
Speaker 14 (27:27):
I'll live with it, you know, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
We have sourced court documents confirming what Pamela just said.
Ken Soper, Gwen's a strange partner, was convicted in a
Brisbane court on May the tenth, nineteen eighty two, of
indecently dealing with a girl under fourteen years. He was
sentenced to three years probation and ordered to submit to
(28:04):
psychiatric and psychological treatment if and when the probation officer
saw fit. Neither Gwen nor her family had any idea.
Please note some of this interview will be beat out
to protect the victim.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
You think you should be able to talk about this.
It's so much you know in the past. But no,
he was definitely violent. You know.
Speaker 13 (28:39):
Just to escape from him was quite a story in itself.
Now we got away, but anyway we did.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So. I was very pleased to be able to get away.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Can you tell me about that escape?
Speaker 13 (28:53):
We I had discovered what was happening, and I got
her out of the house, and he twigged that something
that I tweaked to something.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
You know, I.
Speaker 13 (29:08):
Certainly couldn't confront him with it because it would have
been just would have slaughtered us.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So I got her to go to his.
Speaker 13 (29:16):
Mother's place, saying that his mother wasn't well and that
she was going there. And then on the Monday morning
we were.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Because I sort of discovered this over.
Speaker 13 (29:28):
The weekend, and on the Monday morning, we just all
looked like we were going and he picked her out,
of course, because I said she was going and she
was going to go down to my brother's in Townsvill
for we were living in cans for a week's for
the school holidays. And he said, oh, she goes down there,
(29:50):
then she's out of here. So he basically booted her out.
So her case was packed and gone down to his
mother's And then when we all went work on the
Monday morning, I just took us all down to his
mother's place, grabed some suitcases and hopped on a plane
and slew to Brisbane and you know, stayed with my
(30:11):
relatives for a while. But of course he found as
and then you know, the detectives down there said, well,
you've got to charge him at the indecent dealing.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
You've got to do something.
Speaker 13 (30:23):
So that's what I did, and he was eventually, you know,
found guilty of that.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
But then subsequent to that, I still had to go through.
Speaker 13 (30:33):
His application for access to the kids, you know, went
through years.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Nonsense, gosh, that's just horrible. That's just horrible, and to
you physically eight years.
Speaker 13 (30:50):
He bashed me a few times, which was you know,
like I said, you think, well, dealing with it yourself,
it's not it's not something that you you think you're
just going to put up with it.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
And did he ever threaten you to shoot you or anything?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Oh? We once put a rifle in my mouth.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yes, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 13 (31:19):
So that's why I thought, well, you know, with that,
I didn't know her name, but I thought, well, you know,
he's either done it to her or he's forced her into.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
It in some way.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Escaping a man who sexually assaulted a girl in her care,
who physically beat her, and who threatened her by putting
a gun in her mouth. We cannot ask ken Sobra
about Pamela's allegations of his abuse. He passed away feby
third twenty two. As to whether her claims are crucial
(31:58):
to the investigation into Gwen's death, Pamela's recollections suggest they
absolutely are. Do you remember what type of gun it
was that? Was it a rifle or a pistol that
he was holding when he put it in your mouth?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
It was a rifle.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
It was a rifle twenty two? Do you think or
do you know? Guys?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I think yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Do you know much about guns or was it something
that you know?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I don't, But.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
You're saying your rifle, you didn't know? You didn't do
looaded or take the safety off or he just held it.
Speaker 13 (32:35):
Just held it, you know. I think it was more
like a demonstration on how you could actually do it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
But I think it was loaded.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Well were you scared?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Of course.
Speaker 13 (32:49):
It sort of went under the heading of well that's bizarre,
and you know, I don't want to be in that
position again.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Did you push him away or how did you get
out of that suation?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yes, just just took it away.
Speaker 14 (33:04):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah. And did you say that to him you know,
don't do that again? Or were you just kind of
like no.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
No, I didn't Yeah, I didn't vocalize anything.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Just did the homicide detectives ask you anything about this
or did they discuss it at all?
Speaker 13 (33:19):
In that respect, there wasn't a lot of questioning. They
did ask me if he was violent, and I said
he was. I don't think I told him about the
rifle incident. I can't remember. It just all came so
much out of the blue. I think, oh my god,
you know, do I have to think back to then?
But I didn't talk about any of the stuff I've
(33:41):
just chewed with you.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah, okay, Now, uh, she has.
Speaker 13 (33:50):
Gone through years and years and years of counseling. At
the time, there wasn't much done about victim impact because
it just wasn't done in those days. You know, Like
how she's doing, she's okay, you know, and that's that
was That's what was thought. She told me subsequently that
(34:14):
she used to get flashbacks when, you know, in intimate situations,
and yeah, she's a very very bright, intelligent woman. But yes,
it certainly badly affected her.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Pamela and Ken had two children together, a son and daughter.
Was there any harassment post then? Did he ever threaten
to kill you or the kids?
Speaker 13 (34:40):
There was no no contact I did have to allow
his two children to see him a couple of times,
which was absolutely horrendous. No, there wasn't any direct contact
because I just wouldn't have it.
Speaker 7 (34:57):
He did.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
He did tried to.
Speaker 13 (35:01):
Snatch our youngest child a couple of times, and there
was one occasion when the police, saying, so I was living,
sort of sat up on a hill in case he
came back. I guess that was threatening because he'd grabbed
him and I'd run in front of the car to
stop the driver from going anywhere with it. You know,
(35:21):
the local police were involved in that situation.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And when he threatened you with the gun in your mouth,
what was the threat over I don't know.
Speaker 13 (35:31):
It was just a situation and he was playing with
his guns and then he just happened.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I don't think he was threatening me with violence.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
At that stage. Okay, at that stage.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 13 (35:44):
I think it was just more about, oh, well, you
know this is how you could shoot yourself with a
rifle and you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And when he hit you, it was just keeping you
in line sort of thing or what.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yes, yes, it was I tried.
Speaker 13 (36:04):
I tried to avoid any situation that would cause that do.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
His kids have a relationship with him?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
My youngest doesn't.
Speaker 13 (36:16):
He absolutely, When I told him that he died, he
went to the police station to find out if it
was true, and then he said, oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I can forget about that. Then.
Speaker 13 (36:25):
But the older girl than his daughter, she has had
a relationship with him.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Did you know he's the Stella that he married afterwards?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, my daughter told me about her.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Was that do you know a similar marriage to yours?
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Or?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I mean she obviously was with him until he died.
Speaker 13 (36:48):
I don't think so. I think that that was reasonably okay.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I guess. Lastly, the thing I would ask you is
knowing him. And you mentioned before that when you heard
about Gwen that you you guess that he was involved
or had been responsible.
Speaker 13 (37:07):
What makes you think that, Oh, just because of his
absolute necessity to control every situation and every intimate relationship
he has.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
So if she'd broken up with him, do you think
he would be then, you know, so angry that he
could have killed her? In response, I, that's that's touch.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 13 (37:32):
I mean when I got away from him, it was
because I really feared for us if we'd been if
he'd been able to get in touch with us.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
So, yes, I think it's more likely.
Speaker 13 (37:47):
That he created the violence rather than she committed suicide.
I'd say that, you know, she could have got away,
That's that's what she wanted to do.
Speaker 14 (37:56):
Well.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
You were also the mother of his children, so that
could have played a heart. She didn't have any children
to him.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yes, I really don't know.
Speaker 13 (38:05):
I mean it could because it happened, you know, within
a fairly short time of us being together, and it
could have just been a resentment thing, you know, something
still built up from our time.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
So when did you separate?
Speaker 13 (38:21):
Oh, gosh, that's a year.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
No, that's okayse she died in eighty three, so I'm
thinking maybe eighty two or eighty one.
Speaker 13 (38:32):
Yes, hang on a minute, way I work it out.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
It was the year I turned thirty three, eighty one. Look,
he just thought that he was so.
Speaker 13 (38:45):
Much smarter than everybody else, and that nobody else would
know he could fool everybody and get away with everything
and anything. I mean he grew up near Pens on
a king farm and lived in Ken, so he knew
every and everything.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Okay, So you went from cans only he was only
he was? Were you guys? Actually married.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yes, we did. We did marry. We married in Darwin.
Speaker 13 (39:14):
I I divorced my first husband and we married in Darwin,
and then we came back over to Cans and we
spent a few years in Rabel as well.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
When did you see the real him? I guess.
Speaker 13 (39:33):
When I got pregnant with our daughter. He yes, he
started to get to get a bit violent then, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And when you say violent, more hitting and threatening.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
And he liked these guns too, didn't he.
Speaker 14 (39:52):
Well, he had.
Speaker 13 (39:55):
Some guns when I first met him, but then he
didn't have any that he kept subsequent to that.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
I think he left them with his parents or something.
Speaker 13 (40:06):
I don't I don't know how the guns came back
into his life, because he didn't have any around the
house when not with me.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
He was very.
Speaker 13 (40:18):
I didn't actually think that he was a particularly nice person,
but he was very nice to me when I met him,
And you know, I was just sort of rebelling against
my whole life that had fallen into bits.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And thought, you know, this is good enough.
Speaker 13 (40:34):
He seemed to be a bit of a wild boy,
and he was riding bikes and different things, and I
thought that so different for me, and too silly to
get out of the situation when I realized he wasn't right.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
A police officer from the cold case team visited Pamela
at her home on August sixth, twenty twenty, more than
a year before the inquest into Gwen's death was held.
While Pamela did not wish to give a statement, it
seems remarkable that she was not questioned at length about
her ex husband, who was still on parole for child's
(41:14):
ex abuse when Gwen died. Investigators in nineteen eighty three
paid minimal attention to Ken Sofa.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
I felt absolutely disgusted and appalled and horrified. The thing
that I am terribly, terribly concerned about is that, from
what I've heard, it would appear that his ex wife
spoke to the cold case detectives when they were supposed
to be investigating the case for us, and indicated to
(41:44):
them that when they were married, he was a very
violent man, etc.
Speaker 6 (41:48):
Etc.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
As you would know from reading their statements, there was
no mention of that at all, and the statements.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Sue's siblings had a similar reaction, but no one seemed
more surprised than Duncan Grover.
Speaker 15 (42:01):
I didn't think Ken wouldn't be a black Who would
he hit someone?
Speaker 5 (42:04):
You know?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Well, his ex wife says he was really I interviewed on.
Speaker 15 (42:10):
Your little baggy, I didn't need to be violent.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Well, she said he also once grabbed a gun and
put it in Oh really yeah, and said this is
how easy it would be to kill yourself.
Speaker 15 (42:20):
To his ex wife, fed Ingham, geez, I never knew that.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
But you'd never heard anything about Ken being violent.
Speaker 15 (42:28):
No, that's why when someone suggested it, I thought, you've
got to be kidding. As far as I knew him,
he wasn't violent. And I just couldn't imagine him doing
something like that because I'd met him a few times,
you know, and it just didn't appear to me, and
he was that sort of person.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Grover said he had no idea about Soaper's criminal record.
Speaker 15 (42:52):
Oh, I never knew that.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
And really, do you think he killed himself?
Speaker 15 (42:57):
No? Why would he just put a brand new Yeah,
and you don't go and kill yourself?
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Nah?
Speaker 15 (43:03):
No, I find that very hard to believe.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Hello, Hello, Stella, Yes, hi Stella, It's Alison Sandy from
the Seven Network. How are you?
Speaker 15 (43:13):
Oh?
Speaker 16 (43:13):
I'm all right?
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Well, Ken Soper is gone. His widow is in Cans
and when I spoke with her, she was still mourning
the loss of her husband, who died in a traffic
accident in February twenty twenty two.
Speaker 16 (43:25):
Yeah, he was hit by the truck.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah anyway, Yeah, yes, I was so surprised by that.
It must have come as such a shock.
Speaker 16 (43:32):
Yeah, he can go and down the shop to get milk. Yeah,
that was it.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I'm sorry about Estelle. I did see that the police
sent some flowers though.
Speaker 16 (43:41):
Yeah, they did.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yeah. I didn't didn't realize that he was friends with
so many of them, but he seemed to be a
man of.
Speaker 16 (43:48):
Bo He wasn't friends with the police, but you know,
they just they were the police who were there with
the accident. Oh okay, and it wasn't the police. He
didn't have any friends who were, but they were the
ones who were there, and they came up that night,
not all of the stuff that goes on, and then
they came back one day with some flowers. Yes, being thoughtful. Yeah,
(44:10):
I mean I didn't know him and he didn't know them.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
But yeah, so really I wanted to just talk a
little bit about about his character because at this stage,
the only person I've spoken to was his first wife,
which was Pamela.
Speaker 16 (44:23):
And she she's his second.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Wife, second wife. Sorry, I didn't realize that was he
was married before her? Okay? Okay? So and you were
his third? Is that yft? Okay? And last obviously all right?
So so yeah, so at this stage I only really
have her information.
Speaker 16 (44:40):
Which wouldn't be very nice because she hated him and
he hated her.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Okay, So do you know what happened there or did
he ever verbalize that? Because yeah, I mean that certainly she.
Speaker 16 (44:53):
Has something to tell you, because I don't know. I
wasn't there, but and it's going on a podcast, which
you know then my forever, and I have no idea
what she said, but I do understand that she said
some very un very not very nice things about him
to you.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she has. She said that he was
a he.
Speaker 16 (45:12):
Was violent, that's right, but he's never I was with
him twenty five years and he was never violent in
twenty five years. So I can't see that it would
have he would have changed, because a nature like that
doesn't change.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah, he did. He did obviously like his guns, though he.
Speaker 16 (45:29):
Was not really in the twenty five years that he was. Oh,
we were together. He had his guns and he's never
fired a shot.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
But he didn't go out like he sounded like. He
went out with other people like Glenn Graham and not
to do shit.
Speaker 16 (45:43):
Not In all the years I knew him, he never
went anywhere with anybody with guns and shooting.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Okay, So from your perspective, that was that was something
that you never saw, no, Okay. And what about the
issues because there was the you know, the very sad
case involving.
Speaker 16 (46:00):
I know nothing about that. He swore on the Bible.
He didn't do it. He swore it, and it was
all in his opinion, fabricated so that she could get
custody of her kids. I've got all the paperwork, he
kept all the paperwork as a psychologists who interviewed his
kids and interviewed him, and all her side, her side
(46:24):
of psychologists said he was all these things withdrawn quiet,
blah blah blah blah. But the kids said that he
was violent, etc. But the court had a psychologist talk
to the kids and they said those kids, and that
one said those kids were not frightened of him at all.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Okay. Yeah, this was the same relation.
Speaker 16 (46:49):
Yeah, And so yeah, he swore and it really really
upset him, and he said that she didn't see anything
because there wasn't anything, and he never gave her. Right
up to his death, he never forgave her.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
We have taken up parts of what Stella said here
to protect the identity of the victim. But Stella was
referring to how the child's sex conviction involving someone else
destroyed the relationship Ken had with his daughter because of
her involvement in his conviction. His daughter was only five
years old at the time, and when I asked Pamela
(47:23):
about this, she was confused too, as her daughter was
not involved in the court proceedings.
Speaker 16 (47:29):
No, I've never seen, spoken or had anything. But this
is his daughter.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Oh okay, the one that's Hamela's done, the.
Speaker 16 (47:36):
One that Pamela said. And I have a diary entry
from Ken that she said was not his daughter, So
who knows what went on. I wasn't there. I don't
live that kind of light, you know. But she was
angry and bitter. This is this pam and her daughter
is no different her daughter, and it's got nothing to
(47:57):
do with that. But her daughter is constantly sending me
to tea telling me that he loved her dearly when
he actually didn't and I know that for a fact,
and he left her nothing in his will, and he
actually left a stat deck to say she was not
to receive anything out of his estate. Yeah, and that
was that. But he's always said that nothing she did
(48:19):
now would ever make up for what she did then.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, And he was obviously a different man with you.
Speaker 16 (48:24):
He was not like that. No, never, And you can
ask anyone around here.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
So what about his kids though, which like, because I
know he had two two? Yes, Pamela, he has how many?
In with you?
Speaker 8 (48:35):
Nun?
Speaker 16 (48:35):
The army has two children?
Speaker 1 (48:36):
All right, no worries. So I wasn't quite sure. I
figured that he must have had more children because I
know in his statement he said that him and Gwen
were trying. So, so how did you do meet?
Speaker 16 (48:47):
Oh? We just knew each other. Okay, you believe it
of that? Okay, you know you meet people.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
See Okay. Did you know him though back when he
knew Gwen?
Speaker 2 (48:55):
No?
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Okay, so it was late. I see him many later, Okay.
Speaker 15 (48:57):
Now.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
The only reason I ask is obviously the way that
he's described by his previous wives is different to the
way you know. So yeah, I can only if you
knew him in a different time. And that's very nice.
Speaker 16 (49:09):
Well, I met him in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
So when did she die eighty three?
Speaker 16 (49:14):
Yeah, so I knew him in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Okay, and how long till you got married?
Speaker 16 (49:19):
Oh it's not for business.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Well you don't have to say it, it's not.
Speaker 15 (49:23):
No.
Speaker 16 (49:23):
I actually told me you would call, and he just
told me you don't say anything. It's not relevant. These
people won't let it go. And he said, don't get involved.
So actually, oh, thank you, but I'm not going to
get involved. I was not there. I only know the
man that I knew for twenty five years, and he
was a nice man, and he was a funny man,
and he was kind me. Not this beating up people.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Man. Yep, No, that's fine. And you know what I mean.
It's important that people like you speak out because otherwise
we'll only have the negative.
Speaker 16 (49:53):
Ye, well, she's very negative.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Yes.
Speaker 16 (49:56):
Teld me that you had said terrible things about Ken,
you know, And I thought, well, yeah, people don't know him.
I mean, how can you be with someone all these years.
He's never laid a finger on anybody ever that I
ever saw. He'd get angry you know something, you know
how people get angry, not with me, not necessarily, but
(50:17):
with anything. But he would never get like that.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
No, it was only the conviction because obviously that was you.
Speaker 16 (50:23):
Know that And he said that was not correct with
regard to the girl. And yeah, and he said his
daughter lied and you know I have it on written
by a psychologist when they were interviewed, and she said,
(50:44):
Ken is not my father, you know. So what do
you get from that?
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah, look, you know it's obviously a very messy situation.
But yeah, really I just wanted the character analysis from
you about him.
Speaker 16 (50:59):
Well, he was fine person. He was a good person.
He was funny, and he helped everybody. He was great.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, so I appreciate that. If there's anything else you
ever want to say, we were.
Speaker 16 (51:09):
Except you know, I'd like to hang this girl out
to drive because you know, the day before the funeral,
she sent me a text saying, oh I want this
and this, this and this, you know. And then four
days after his funeral, I get a letter from her lawyer.
You know, she's a car and then she said that
he loved her dealing and she's so caring. He cared
for her, and she said he wrung her every day. Well,
(51:30):
he didn't because his phone was in my in my
phone account, on my phone account, and I've got his
phone and I've got his book of the phone log calls.
And he didn't wring her very often at all. She
rang him occasionally.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
And he didn't have anything to this son either, did
you No?
Speaker 16 (51:48):
No, I know one day at one time he is back. Now.
We were in Brisbane and he said his son through.
She told him his son was a mechanic somewhere and
Ken rang the number, didn't speak to him, and the
police told me that went to the police station wherever
(52:09):
he is and he said, I believe Ken said it
was my father. I believe you want to see me
And they said, yes, he's been killed. You want to
hear about it. And he said a lot of swear
words no and walked down.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
So that was that, there's no chance that Ken killed himself.
Speaker 16 (52:30):
Then No, it was bloody drug eating. He was hiding
his motorbike down the road, down the street to get
milk from the shopping center and a truck came out
from the side street and hit him, ran over him,
pushed him across the road and he died.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
That night. Did anyone know the truck over look?
Speaker 16 (52:51):
It's all irrelevant, okay, So I'll just leave it at that.
But he did not kill himself, God forbid.
Speaker 15 (52:57):
No.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
I just mean because you obviously the truck driver. That's
pretty that's pretty full on, you know. I gather he
just didn't see him.
Speaker 16 (53:05):
Well, that's what he said. Yes, he was charged by
the police and all that, so that's all they too.
But anyway, I've got to go, so I'll talk to
you later, all right, take.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Care, Stella bye. Understandably, Stella is protective of the man
she loved, but her claims about Ken's conviction for child
molestation are at odds with the facts that Ken Soaper
disowned his children and maintained his innocence does not change
a fact that he was a convicted pedophile. As Stella said,
(53:34):
God forbid, Ken would kill himself. The stigma of suicide
is too awful to contemplate, although some were quick to
assume Gwen had done exactly that as a young, loving
mother with her whole life ahead of her. The cold
(53:57):
case team handed their forty two page report to the coroner,
and as the inquest into Gwen's death approached, Sue Cole
could barely contain her emotions. She had high hopes of, finally,
after nearly forty years, restoring the reputation of her sister,
that the justice system would reject the abysmal investigation and
(54:18):
make at the very least an open finding or that
Gwen was possibly the victim of foul play. Surely investigators
would ensure Pamela's story would play a major role in
the inquest. Then, just two days before the hearings were
to begin, Sue was hit with a devastating last minute blow.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
We applied to legal aid, which is really the only
option that families like us have. We were accepted under
the legal aid scheme. The solicitor that started our case
drop doubt about a month before the inquest was due
to go ahead because his wife was having a baby.
(55:08):
So another solicitor took over and she did the very
best that she could. But before the first solicitor left,
he organized a friend of his who was a QC
here in Cans to act pro bono on our case.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
And I was a static by her.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
That I thought, how lucky have we We've got this
amazing QC who's going to be in our corner as well.
The inquest was due to sat on the Tuesday. I
was due in town on the Monday to have a
meeting with both him and the solicitor from Legal Aid,
and on the Friday afternoon I received were that.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
He pulled out the QC, that is, that he was
no longer going to represent us.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
So the case was then handed to a female barrister
in his chambers, but she essentially had the weekend to
get up to speed on a case that was thirty
eight years old, and from there on in it just
went further downhill.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Next time. What happened at the inquest.
Speaker 3 (56:11):
And it was one of the most traumatic, frightening experiences
of my life. I felt as though I was getting
treated as though I was a criminal. I was hammered
for almost two hours. My motives were questioned to the
point of where I felt I was being ridiculed, dismissed,
and looked upon with suspicion because I'd even begun the
(56:34):
whole process.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
Shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot Au
(57:02):
or leave us an anonymous tip at Shotinthdark dot com
dot au. If this podcast has raised issues for you,
please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them
at www dot lifeline dot org dot au. This podcast
(57:24):
is brought to you by me presenter and journalist Alison Sandy.
If you like what you're hearing, please rate and review
our podcast. It helps other listeners find us special thanks
to my writer, producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's sister and tireless
(57:44):
campaigner for Justice, Soue Cole, sound designer Mark Wright, graphics
Jason Blamford. Before our theme music is by Bob Kronk
the First and there is a link to his music
on Spotify in the show notes.
Speaker 9 (58:03):
Way tart Swoll, the Pains and Shot in the Dark
is a seven News production.
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why can't we find out what happened? Why won't anyone
help us?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It was not suicide, There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Shot in the Dark Episode four. When the Queensland Attorney
General ordered the coroner to hold an into the death
of Gwen Grover in December of twenty nineteen, it triggered
a flurry of long overdue activity. The police Cold Case
(01:10):
Investigation Team was assigned to review the evidence, interview witnesses
in the case, including those who have been completely overlooked
in the original investigation. They also assigned the Police Ballistics
Unit to undergo a reconstruction.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
It is Monday, the thirteenth September twenty twenty one. My
name is Bevan Mactelow, Senior Sergeant with the Ballistics Unit,
Scientific Section of the Queensland Police Service. I'm here at
the Yumanto Police Station to conduct some shooting reconstruction testing
for our coming coronial in quest of Gwen Grover. This
testing will be using three female test subjects and test
(01:50):
their ability to operate the trigger of a firearm while
seated in a vehicle.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
For Sue Cole, this promised to be another vindication of
her decades of work raising awareness about Gwen, and she
had high hopes of a breakthrough that would show, at
the very least her sister did not kill herself. For
the reenactment, a member of the public provided a nineteen
seventy five Chrysler Gallant, the same car Gwen was found in.
(02:21):
Three female test subjects were used, all about Gwen's build,
with one slightly shorter, one the same height, and one
slightly taller.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
The rifles they'll be using today. The first one is
a twenty two long rifle caliber Squire's Bingham made Sterling
Model twenty self loading Remphire rifle. This rifle has been
sourced from the Ballistics Unit Reference Collection and has been
chosen based on the postmodern report of a twenty two
(02:53):
long rifle caliber projectile being located and based on features
of a firearm scene in the limited scene photographs from
nineteen eighty three. This rifle has at least some of
those features, not quite all, but none of the firearms
within the Ballistic Unit Reference Collection have all features that
are observed in the photographs.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
The reason they have to use three different rifles is
because the original was lost and cannot be properly identified
from the handful of crime scene photographs tocharge. They can
only use rifles in the Ballistics Units collection with the
firing bolts removed around They asked the test subjects to
use the right hand to grip the end of the
muzzle and try to fire the rifle with their non
(03:36):
dominant left hand.
Speaker 5 (03:38):
Can you reach the trigger?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
The test subject is indicated yes. Can you push it
all the way?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Where? Would yes?
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Test subject is indicated.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
That you can do that?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
And would you be able to push the trigger further
if it was a longer reach? Yes, and the test
subject is indicated yes.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
All three test subjects run identical tests with two of
the rifles. All say they can reach and press the
trigger with their left thumb.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
This is the third test today. This test is using
a firearm that hasn't been disassembled, so the breech bolt
is still in place, and this allows to test the
ability with an outstretched left hand whether the firing pin
can be released in the rifle. The actual rifle being
used is another Squire's being a Sterling Model twenty the
same as rifle one. So the firearm is copped and
(04:26):
we'll just ask test subject number one to reach with
an outstretched left hand as far as you can reach
to see if they can pull the trigger whilst the
barrel pointed in a safe direction.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
And you can hear the click and that sound of
the firing pin being released. That test was done with
the subject standing next to the rifle resting on a
bench pointing upwards for safety, as the firing pin had
not been removed. All three female test subjects could push
the trigger with their outstretched arm as.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
We're seen in the videos. Each of the test subject.
Test subjects was able to who manipulate the trigger with
their non dominant left hand.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
While seated in the car that was closed, and operate.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
The trigger, and each test subject indicated that they could
have reached somewhat further also is required.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It's difficult to understand what value this re enactment has.
It's unknown what actual model of rifle was used. There's
no way of knowing what condition it was in and
how much pressure would be needed to pull the trigger.
Former decorated police detective Jerry Thornton agrees.
Speaker 7 (05:34):
Mankello does re enactment, and I said at the beginning
this is a waste of time. But anyway, he's done
this re enactment. The only thing that was consistence. They
had the same concerted car that Green was in. But
he gets three I think females, two police officers, one
a mean similar sizing to Green. But he's using a
gun which we don't even know is the right gun.
(05:58):
He's using that gun, so he doesn't know what Gwenn's
wingspan was. He doesn't know if she's strong or weak.
He doesn't know if she had good balance or not,
you know, And he knows nothing about it, and really
nothing about the rifle because rifles varying length, and even
though council assistings seemed to be pushing him towards a
sterling rifle, he admits in the end that he hasn't
(06:21):
got a clue what the gun was. But it was
semi automatic. He says it was semi automatic, and Gwen
Grahame in his statement says it's semi automatic, but incredibly
say for the men that uses it, says, no, it's
all as.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
More on the gun later. As for the re enactment,
none of the test subjects were affected by alcohol, and
as Jerry observed, we don't know that arm span in
relation to Gwen's. In short, apart from showing that a
rifle can be fired, it doesn't appear to confirm anything.
I asked Jerry about the elephant in the room.
Speaker 7 (07:00):
Well, there's lots of elops. There's quite a few elephants
getting around in Keynes. But just you know, I'll just
add back to the gun. He actually says he does
press the test on the trigger and it's at one
point take kilograms required to follow the rifle. He produces
photographs of the rifles, but it admits it's not the
(07:20):
same rifle as he pressed the tests, and it's not
the same rifle as he used in the reenactment, And
you think, well, what what's.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
The good of this.
Speaker 7 (07:30):
I just don't understand where any of it that's relevant.
Why I produce these photos when it's not a rifle
that is either pres to test or using the reenactment.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
The crime scene photos upon which the reenactment was based
are distressing as you would expect, but they are also
striking because they are unusual, unlike similar images we see
in these investigations.
Speaker 7 (07:52):
And the reenactment was comical because her feet are placed
odd leave in the car where the gun ends. Uples
are actually white. Her knuckles on her hand are actually white,
basically holding the barrel. I don't know how that can
possibly happen, because once you get shot in the head,
as far as I know, and the post modem says
(08:13):
the brain was shattered, so if you sat of their
brain usually you lose all muscle control, so everything relaxes.
But her right hand's gone from holding a barrel to
or left temple across in front of her somehow dodging
the steering wheel which is close in a small car,
and leaning across the lab with a hand sort of
(08:35):
past We turned eddy clockwise over the barrel and gripped
at that type and her knuckles are white. As I said,
I'm not saying it's murder and I'm not saying it's suicide,
but there's that many inconsistencies that need reinvestigating, reviewing.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
It is unusual to see a suicide victim gripping the
end of the barrel of a long rifle the way
Gwen did. This is something we will pursue with a
forensic expert. The cold case team did not question it
in their report to the coroner. They did track down
(09:12):
a number of witnesses. They identified forty four witnesses. Seventeen
were deceased, one a laboratory analyst could not be found.
Statements were obtained from fourteen people. Beman Magdalow, the police
officer from the ballistic section who did the re enactment,
was interviewed. Here's the final paragraph.
Speaker 8 (09:33):
Senior Sergeant Mandaloke made no comment as to the deceased's
ability to perform such an act, including her ability to
reach the trigger in such a position, or the ability
of her left hand to activate the trigger.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
That assessment appears to confirm Jerry Thornton's opinion that the
re enactment was a complete waste of time. Among the
other witnesses were Gwen's siblings. A police officer filed this
written account of an interview with Gwen's brother Stanley.
Speaker 9 (10:05):
The witness, Stanley Henniford, called Duncan Grover when he heard
the deceased had died. The witness wanted the body to
be buried in New South Wales, near the grandmother. The
witness was advised by Grover the deceased wished to be cremated,
and the process had started. The witness asked for the
ashes to be sent to New South Wales, which occurred
a short time after this, a wake was held in
(10:27):
New South Wales. Duncan, Grover and Ken's Soper arrived together
in a four wheel drive. During the wake, the witness
talked to Grover and Soper in private as he wanted
more information about the death and the weapon used. The
witness spoke to Grover, who said, have you ever seen
someone who had been shot in the forehead with a bullet?
He went on to say that he was surprised by
(10:49):
the small wound. The witness thought this inappropriate and went
to Soper and spoke to him. The witness asked Soper
about the weapon and was told, sorry, mate, it's my fault.
The rifle in the boot of the car. I borrowed
Gwen's car to go shooting and left the rifle in
the boots. The witness asked if it was his rifle
and he said yes. The witness asked what type of
(11:10):
weapon it was and was told a Mauser type rifle.
The witness is ex army and aware of a Mauser
type weapon is a large caliber weapon, and was confused
by the statement of Grover that there was a small
entry wound. The witness said to Sofa, that seems a
bit weird because Gwen wouldn't know how to operate a rifle.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Gwen's brother Stan recalled Ken, identifying the weapon that caused
Gwen's death a rifle he had left in the boot
of his car, not in his cupboard, as he told police.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Well, the first first blog I spoke about it was Ken. Sofa.
They have the memorial service in ARNI said, wild, I've
never met you before, and I said, I was a
bit angry when I got taught. I said, what where
did she get this bloody young from? Like she pused
me into guards, none of the girl's and my wife
only where I was telling boy I had guns, but
the girls never wouldn't even know the first thing about him.
(12:01):
And I said, where did she get it from in
the first place? He said, mate, I'm sorry. He said
that was my fault. Was I left it in the
boot of a car. I'd borrow it the car the
day water go shooting, and I left it in the boot,
and I said, well, what sort of a gun was it?
He said it was a mouser a German Mauser, like
a second war coopory weapon. And I said, well, she
really much of a head. Left who to head up
(12:21):
with a mouser board? And I sort of left her that.
Then I got talking to Duncan Gray with a husband,
and I said, what do you make of all this?
And he said, we don't know it. I said, well,
did you hear that it was a German was a rifle?
But she shot us off with it allegedly, and he said,
only I don't think so, because they said the shot
was too small. He said, you ever seen someone he
(12:43):
shot in the head and I said, yes, I have,
but I don't want to talk about that. But he
said it was only a small board. Repeated do him
to be a small board? And I said, right, well
that's that. Then when we got the report back from
this solicitor, the initial report and the police report that
has done here, it said it mentioned to her the
color of the weapon, but then later on there was
talk of a twenty two color of a carbridge, and
(13:05):
then it went on with the favors of the body
on the seat of the car with the twenty two
lane underneath it, like you know, the friend of your
color of rifles. So that's I think yourself. There's two
weapons involved here, one say, for told me about it
was in the boot, and the one that was in
the report was a cal of a weapon, and now
they talked about a twenty two. So I shadow, I
got to think it's all of something not right. Here
(13:26):
is a confusion of the weapons will start and where
is the weapon? And see got onto the wallistics expert
and he said all those as you know. I thought
it was a bit strange at the time, but I
never got the weapon. I got the rounds. I then
got the weapon to compare it with the weapon.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Stan is referring to the former Scientific Officer for Policing Cans,
Glenn Kanowski, who provided this statement to the cold case team.
Speaker 10 (13:51):
I recall being contacted a few months ago by the
sister of Gwen Grover. I recall being provided at the
time with copies of some of the documents I have
listed about. I record during this conversation talking about the
fact that I did not receive the rifle associated with
the investigation, and that the Scientific section would receive and
examine the firearm used in most suspected suicide cases. I
(14:15):
can say that it was common for the firearm used
in cases of suspected suicide by gunshots to be forwarded
to the scientific section for examination, including an attempt to
verify that the recovered projectile had been fired from the firearm.
It is not possible to make this determination in all
cases due to damage to the projectile. This type of
(14:37):
examination did not take place in every case of suspected
suicide by gunshot.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Back to Stan it was two scenarios.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
Yes, once she did suicide, and the growing in questions
are and why do it here? The second one is
that she was lured here and shot. I think she was.
Actually I think there was a very a rendezvous here,
arranged to meet here, because in those days there's no
mobile phones, there's no phones anywhere. I think she is
(15:07):
there was arranged meeting here. That a partigul of time.
So either get the rifle out of the book, which
did be left from the book, or to talk over
their their breakdown, their relationship. So you think it's Ken, well,
I think sir him, or someone who's paid to do it,
or a third party that we don't.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Know about what do you want to see done?
Speaker 5 (15:29):
Well, we want justice, we want a name Cleid, but
we want to want Wedn's name Cleid and it wouldlate
it is safe for opinion. Would be nice to have
a name Clid. You say it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
All parties will say, well, we gave you an inquest.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Well, the inquest was only even at the time I said,
the waste of time us going up with the inquest
because it's the terms of reference to all about clearing
the police of their of them not doing their job
on the initial investigation, and that it was the curran
has finding his words. They were cleared. They did the
best they could at the time, even though it was
a select investigation onward.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
According to the Coroner's Findings, published on the ninth of
November twenty twenty one, the terms of reference for the
inquest were limited to one section forty five of the
Coroner's Act two thousand and three, which is to find out,
if possible, what caused the person to die and the
adequacy of the original investigation by the Queensland Police Service
(16:31):
as to why that was the case. Well, we'll get
to that later. The cold case investigation team stated in
its report that on fourteenth of July twenty twenty, the
reporting officer, Detective Acting Sergeant Adam Denian, was apprized of
the associated ministerial file and tasked to review the circumstances
(16:52):
of the deceased person's death and the original police investigation.
One of the statements they taken from Gwen's former husband,
Duncan Grover. He's an excerpt of what he had to say.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
I do remember Thursday, the thirteenth of October nineteen eighty three,
Gwen had recently moved into a new flat after breaking
up with a boyfriend, Ken Soper. Bet actually helped Gwen
move into the unit. I think it would have been
around four or five o'clock. It was after I'd finished work.
In any case, Bet and I went around at Gwen's
place and picked up the boys. As Gwen asked if
(17:25):
I could look after them that night while we're at Gwen's.
She said to me, promise you'll look after the boys.
I said, yeah, no problem, of course I will. Gwen said, no,
I mean it, promise me if anything happens to me,
you'll look after them.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
She seemed to.
Speaker 6 (17:41):
Say this more seriously, and I said, of course, I will,
nothing's going to happen to you. I didn't think much
of it at the time and basically shrugged it off.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Duncan ended his statement to the cold case team with
this line.
Speaker 6 (17:53):
To this day, I have no idea what happened with Gwen.
The police at the time told me it was a suicide,
but I can't think of any reason Gwen would want
to do that.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And Gwen's ex partner, Ken Soper, also gave a statement.
Speaker 11 (18:05):
In addition to my original statement, I wish to provide
the following information to expand on and or clarify what
I have previously stated in relation to the death of
Gwen Lorraine Grover in cans On or about the fourteenth
of October nineteen eighty three. I cannot recall the name
of the female uniform officer that took my statement, and
(18:25):
I do not know Constable Kinbacker. I am currently married
to stella An Soper, and we've been married since two
thousand and one. I was previously married to Pamela. Pamela
and I married in the Northern Territory in nineteen seventy
six and we had two children together. As outlined in
my original statement, I knew Gwen Rover prior to her death.
(18:47):
We'd been in a de facto relationship for about six months.
I first met Gwen at a party. Gwen and I
hit it off at the party, and our relationship progressed
from there. Gwen used to drink a fair bit. I
wouldn't say to the point that you would call her
a drunk, but she did have a beer and a
smoke at Smoko. I never saw Gwen take any kind
of illegal drug, and as far as I know, she
(19:09):
wasn't interested. I believe Gwen was on a pension and
was also working as a cleaner, but she never had
any savings to speak of as far as I'm aware.
As far as I know, Gwen had no mental health issues,
and I don't think she ever saw a psychologist. I
don't think she even had a regular doctor, and if
she did need to see anyone, I can only presume
(19:29):
that she'd have gone to the hospital. To the best
of my knowledge, Gwen was right handed. In the first
paragraph of my original statement, I mentioned an argument that
I'd had with Gwen prior to her moving out of
my house at forty Sturt Street. The argument occurred after
we'd been out Gwen, the boys, David, and myself. When
we got home, Gwen went to open the front door,
(19:51):
and as she opened the door, David tried to push through,
and I stopped him and told him he should wait
for his mother to went to first whilst I recall
stopping David, but I'm not sure exactly what I did,
but that's what started the argument. It appeared to me
that David was Gwen's favorite child, and I guess she
took it more seriously, which I think is why she
(20:11):
decided to move out. I don't know where she moved to,
and it would have been at least a week prior
to her death that she and the boys moved out.
I usually left my house open, and if I did
lock it, there was a key left out for David
if they needed it. In nineteen eighty three, I used
to own quite a few rifles. I can't remember exactly
(20:31):
what I had, but my collection included a point two
two two and a Winchester forty four. It was probably
about twenty rifles all up. None of those rifles were
semi automatic, but one was a pump action twenty two,
which I sold a long time ago. I don't have
anywhere near as many rifles anymore, but I do still
have the point two two two in the Winchester forty four.
(20:54):
I have shown DSc Denny in these rifles and can
said to him taking a photo of the point two
two two. In my original statement there is a reference
to one of my rifles going missing from the wardrobe
in my bedroom. That statement lists that firearm as ap
point three two five, which is incorrect. The firearm that
was taken was the twenty two that belonged to Glen Graham.
(21:16):
Glenn used to live at I had been in possession
of it prior to Gwen's death and kept it in
the built in wardrobe in the main bedroom at home,
which I owned and was on the corner of Sturton's
Venson Streets with my other rifles. I am aware that
this is the rifle that was located with Gwen on
fourteen October nineteen eighty three, and I'm pretty sure the
(21:36):
police returned the rifle to Glenn as I didn't want
anything to do with it after Gwen's death. I don't
know what became of the rifle after that. Over the years,
I have contemplated what happened to Gwen. To this day,
I struggled to believe that Gwen took her life, and
I am more than willing to continue assisting the police
with any future investigation.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Lot to unpack there After thirty eight years, Ken Soper
suddenly remembers that the rifle Gwen used was not his,
but one belonging to a friend named Glenn Graham. It
was not left in the boot of his car. It
was back in the cupboard. The point three two five
(22:21):
caliber rifle he told police about in nineteen eighty three
is now a point two two. That might be because
the point three to two five model was produced twenty
years after Gwen's death in two thousand and five. You
may recall Jerry Thornton's thoughts on that from the first
episode Yeah You've Got.
Speaker 7 (22:40):
A Job, that was in nineteen eighty three, where the
ex boyfriend comes out and says, yeah, basically it was
my guns he used. It was a point three two five.
The police sort of say it's a point three two
five and the diosasion of it and the problem was
zero point three two files weren't invented till the early
(23:02):
two thousands. Hey, you can make that mistake is beyond me.
I think in the cornial they said it was a
type was something ridiculous like that, But you're talking about
a really, really high powered gun, and sober who allegedly
owned the gun any statement, he says, it's a point
(23:24):
three too five and he owns the gun. But they
weren't invented. But that's all right, we'll just brush over
that one because that doesn't look good. Thirty eight years later,
he all of a sudden remembers who had owned the gun,
and it was his mate, Glenn Graham. Now I don't
know why you wouldn't remember that two weeks after the event,
(23:46):
but you do thirty eight years later. So they go down.
They tracked that good Earl Glenn Loans in the gun,
but then they don't call Glen as a witness. I
think that's unforgivable.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
In his statement to the cold case team, Ken Soper
also gave his version of the argument that led to
Gwen leaving him with her two boys, that Ken had
stopped young David from entering the house before Gwen, though
he didn't say how he physically intervened. He also revealed
he was married before he met Gwen, to a woman
(24:21):
named Pamela. The cold case team tracked down Pamela, including
this in their report.
Speaker 12 (24:28):
The witness is the ex wife of Ken Sober. On
sixth of August twenty twenty, the investigating slash reporting officer
attended the witness's residence and personally spoke with the witness
in relation to this matter. The witness, whilst aware of
this matter, stated that she has no direct knowledge of
it as she had left Cans prior to the deceased
person's death and as such does not want to provide
(24:52):
a statement.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
No statement was taken. No evidence from Pamela was included
in the investigation. What did him? Investigators ask her. Well,
we also tracked Pamela down, So Pamela, Yeah, so this
is just for I guess for the podcast, just to
get a bit of an understanding on the sort of
(25:15):
because unfortunately, as you know, Ken is no longer around.
I don't know if you'd heard about that, had you all?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yes? I had?
Speaker 13 (25:25):
Yeah, I mean, it's not a time in my life
that I care to revisit. He was a truly horrible person.
But who is the woman who's died? Did you're doing?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Her name was Gwn Grover and anyway, he was a
suspect in relation to her untimely death. That was in
nineteen eighty three. Have you ever heard of this? Have
anyone ever contacted you about it before?
Speaker 13 (25:46):
Is she the woman who was supposed to have shot
herself with a rifle?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Correct?
Speaker 13 (25:52):
Ah, I did have some homicide men come around to
visit me here some months ago. I don't know if
it was in relation to that or not, but they
were asking about him. That was prior to his dying.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Look. I heard about that incident.
Speaker 13 (26:11):
Through my sister in law who happened to be in
a doctor's surgery one morning and she saw it on
the news or something and told her brother.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
I told her husband, of course, who's my.
Speaker 13 (26:22):
Brother, and he told me, which is how I found
out about that. But I really don't know anything. I
have no first and knowledge or anything about it. But
knowing him at the time, I said to whomember I
was talking to, well, she wouldn't have just done that.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Either he did it or he caused her to do it.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Are you able to tell? Was was he a violent man?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Or Oh?
Speaker 13 (26:49):
He was incredibly violent. He was a horrible, horrible man.
And you know this is something that I don't talk
about ever to anybody. He he was found guilty of
(27:10):
indecent dealing with.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah, so that was so. That was how I got
away from it.
Speaker 13 (27:20):
Actually, I you know, while while it's yourself, you sort
of kick Oh well, bet it's made.
Speaker 14 (27:27):
I'll live with it, you know, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
We have sourced court documents confirming what Pamela just said.
Ken Soper, Gwen's a strange partner, was convicted in a
Brisbane court on May the tenth, nineteen eighty two, of
indecently dealing with a girl under fourteen years. He was
sentenced to three years probation and ordered to submit to
(28:04):
psychiatric and psychological treatment if and when the probation officer
saw fit. Neither Gwen nor her family had any idea.
Please note some of this interview will be beat out
to protect the victim.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
You think you should be able to talk about this.
It's so much you know in the past. But no,
he was definitely violent. You know.
Speaker 13 (28:39):
Just to escape from him was quite a story in itself.
Now we got away, but anyway we did.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So. I was very pleased to be able to get away.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Can you tell me about that escape?
Speaker 13 (28:53):
We I had discovered what was happening, and I got
her out of the house, and he twigged that something
that I tweaked to something.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
You know, I.
Speaker 13 (29:08):
Certainly couldn't confront him with it because it would have
been just would have slaughtered us.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So I got her to go to his.
Speaker 13 (29:16):
Mother's place, saying that his mother wasn't well and that
she was going there. And then on the Monday morning
we were.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Because I sort of discovered this over.
Speaker 13 (29:28):
The weekend, and on the Monday morning, we just all
looked like we were going and he picked her out,
of course, because I said she was going and she
was going to go down to my brother's in Townsvill
for we were living in cans for a week's for
the school holidays. And he said, oh, she goes down there,
(29:50):
then she's out of here. So he basically booted her out.
So her case was packed and gone down to his
mother's And then when we all went work on the
Monday morning, I just took us all down to his
mother's place, grabed some suitcases and hopped on a plane
and slew to Brisbane and you know, stayed with my
(30:11):
relatives for a while. But of course he found as
and then you know, the detectives down there said, well,
you've got to charge him at the indecent dealing.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
You've got to do something.
Speaker 13 (30:23):
So that's what I did, and he was eventually, you know,
found guilty of that.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
But then subsequent to that, I still had to go through.
Speaker 13 (30:33):
His application for access to the kids, you know, went
through years.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Nonsense, gosh, that's just horrible. That's just horrible, and to
you physically eight years.
Speaker 13 (30:50):
He bashed me a few times, which was you know,
like I said, you think, well, dealing with it yourself,
it's not it's not something that you you think you're
just going to put up with it.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
And did he ever threaten you to shoot you or anything?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Oh? We once put a rifle in my mouth.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yes, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 13 (31:19):
So that's why I thought, well, you know, with that,
I didn't know her name, but I thought, well, you know,
he's either done it to her or he's forced her into.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
It in some way.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Escaping a man who sexually assaulted a girl in her care,
who physically beat her, and who threatened her by putting
a gun in her mouth. We cannot ask ken Sobra
about Pamela's allegations of his abuse. He passed away feby
third twenty two. As to whether her claims are crucial
(31:58):
to the investigation into Gwen's death, Pamela's recollections suggest they
absolutely are. Do you remember what type of gun it
was that? Was it a rifle or a pistol that
he was holding when he put it in your mouth?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
It was a rifle.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
It was a rifle twenty two? Do you think or
do you know? Guys?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I think yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Do you know much about guns or was it something
that you know?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I don't, But.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
You're saying your rifle, you didn't know? You didn't do
looaded or take the safety off or he just held it.
Speaker 13 (32:35):
Just held it, you know. I think it was more
like a demonstration on how you could actually do it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
But I think it was loaded.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Well were you scared?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Of course.
Speaker 13 (32:49):
It sort of went under the heading of well that's bizarre,
and you know, I don't want to be in that
position again.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Did you push him away or how did you get
out of that suation?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yes, just just took it away.
Speaker 14 (33:04):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah. And did you say that to him you know,
don't do that again? Or were you just kind of
like no.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
No, I didn't Yeah, I didn't vocalize anything.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Just did the homicide detectives ask you anything about this
or did they discuss it at all?
Speaker 13 (33:19):
In that respect, there wasn't a lot of questioning. They
did ask me if he was violent, and I said
he was. I don't think I told him about the
rifle incident. I can't remember. It just all came so
much out of the blue. I think, oh my god,
you know, do I have to think back to then?
But I didn't talk about any of the stuff I've
(33:41):
just chewed with you.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah, okay, Now, uh, she has.
Speaker 13 (33:50):
Gone through years and years and years of counseling. At
the time, there wasn't much done about victim impact because
it just wasn't done in those days. You know, Like
how she's doing, she's okay, you know, and that's that
was That's what was thought. She told me subsequently that
(34:14):
she used to get flashbacks when, you know, in intimate situations,
and yeah, she's a very very bright, intelligent woman. But yes,
it certainly badly affected her.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Pamela and Ken had two children together, a son and daughter.
Was there any harassment post then? Did he ever threaten
to kill you or the kids?
Speaker 13 (34:40):
There was no no contact I did have to allow
his two children to see him a couple of times,
which was absolutely horrendous. No, there wasn't any direct contact
because I just wouldn't have it.
Speaker 7 (34:57):
He did.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
He did tried to.
Speaker 13 (35:01):
Snatch our youngest child a couple of times, and there
was one occasion when the police, saying, so I was living,
sort of sat up on a hill in case he
came back. I guess that was threatening because he'd grabbed
him and I'd run in front of the car to
stop the driver from going anywhere with it. You know,
(35:21):
the local police were involved in that situation.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And when he threatened you with the gun in your mouth,
what was the threat over I don't know.
Speaker 13 (35:31):
It was just a situation and he was playing with
his guns and then he just happened.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I don't think he was threatening me with violence.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
At that stage. Okay, at that stage.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 13 (35:44):
I think it was just more about, oh, well, you
know this is how you could shoot yourself with a
rifle and you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And when he hit you, it was just keeping you
in line sort of thing or what.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yes, yes, it was I tried.
Speaker 13 (36:04):
I tried to avoid any situation that would cause that do.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
His kids have a relationship with him?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
My youngest doesn't.
Speaker 13 (36:16):
He absolutely, When I told him that he died, he
went to the police station to find out if it
was true, and then he said, oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I can forget about that. Then.
Speaker 13 (36:25):
But the older girl than his daughter, she has had
a relationship with him.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Did you know he's the Stella that he married afterwards?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, my daughter told me about her.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Was that do you know a similar marriage to yours?
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Or?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I mean she obviously was with him until he died.
Speaker 13 (36:48):
I don't think so. I think that that was reasonably okay.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I guess. Lastly, the thing I would ask you is
knowing him. And you mentioned before that when you heard
about Gwen that you you guess that he was involved
or had been responsible.
Speaker 13 (37:07):
What makes you think that, Oh, just because of his
absolute necessity to control every situation and every intimate relationship
he has.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
So if she'd broken up with him, do you think
he would be then, you know, so angry that he
could have killed her? In response, I, that's that's touch.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 13 (37:32):
I mean when I got away from him, it was
because I really feared for us if we'd been if
he'd been able to get in touch with us.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
So, yes, I think it's more likely.
Speaker 13 (37:47):
That he created the violence rather than she committed suicide.
I'd say that, you know, she could have got away,
That's that's what she wanted to do.
Speaker 14 (37:56):
Well.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
You were also the mother of his children, so that
could have played a heart. She didn't have any children
to him.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yes, I really don't know.
Speaker 13 (38:05):
I mean it could because it happened, you know, within
a fairly short time of us being together, and it
could have just been a resentment thing, you know, something
still built up from our time.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
So when did you separate?
Speaker 13 (38:21):
Oh, gosh, that's a year.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
No, that's okayse she died in eighty three, so I'm
thinking maybe eighty two or eighty one.
Speaker 13 (38:32):
Yes, hang on a minute, way I work it out.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
It was the year I turned thirty three, eighty one. Look,
he just thought that he was so.
Speaker 13 (38:45):
Much smarter than everybody else, and that nobody else would
know he could fool everybody and get away with everything
and anything. I mean he grew up near Pens on
a king farm and lived in Ken, so he knew
every and everything.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Okay, So you went from cans only he was only
he was? Were you guys? Actually married.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yes, we did. We did marry. We married in Darwin.
Speaker 13 (39:14):
I I divorced my first husband and we married in Darwin,
and then we came back over to Cans and we
spent a few years in Rabel as well.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
When did you see the real him? I guess.
Speaker 13 (39:33):
When I got pregnant with our daughter. He yes, he
started to get to get a bit violent then, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And when you say violent, more hitting and threatening.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
And he liked these guns too, didn't he.
Speaker 14 (39:52):
Well, he had.
Speaker 13 (39:55):
Some guns when I first met him, but then he
didn't have any that he kept subsequent to that.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
I think he left them with his parents or something.
Speaker 13 (40:06):
I don't I don't know how the guns came back
into his life, because he didn't have any around the
house when not with me.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
He was very.
Speaker 13 (40:18):
I didn't actually think that he was a particularly nice person,
but he was very nice to me when I met him,
And you know, I was just sort of rebelling against
my whole life that had fallen into bits.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And thought, you know, this is good enough.
Speaker 13 (40:34):
He seemed to be a bit of a wild boy,
and he was riding bikes and different things, and I
thought that so different for me, and too silly to
get out of the situation when I realized he wasn't right.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
A police officer from the cold case team visited Pamela
at her home on August sixth, twenty twenty, more than
a year before the inquest into Gwen's death was held.
While Pamela did not wish to give a statement, it
seems remarkable that she was not questioned at length about
her ex husband, who was still on parole for child's
(41:14):
ex abuse when Gwen died. Investigators in nineteen eighty three
paid minimal attention to Ken Sofa.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
I felt absolutely disgusted and appalled and horrified. The thing
that I am terribly, terribly concerned about is that, from
what I've heard, it would appear that his ex wife
spoke to the cold case detectives when they were supposed
to be investigating the case for us, and indicated to
(41:44):
them that when they were married, he was a very
violent man, etc.
Speaker 6 (41:48):
Etc.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
As you would know from reading their statements, there was
no mention of that at all, and the statements.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Sue's siblings had a similar reaction, but no one seemed
more surprised than Duncan Grover.
Speaker 15 (42:01):
I didn't think Ken wouldn't be a black Who would
he hit someone?
Speaker 5 (42:04):
You know?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Well, his ex wife says he was really I interviewed on.
Speaker 15 (42:10):
Your little baggy, I didn't need to be violent.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Well, she said he also once grabbed a gun and
put it in Oh really yeah, and said this is
how easy it would be to kill yourself.
Speaker 15 (42:20):
To his ex wife, fed Ingham, geez, I never knew that.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
But you'd never heard anything about Ken being violent.
Speaker 15 (42:28):
No, that's why when someone suggested it, I thought, you've
got to be kidding. As far as I knew him,
he wasn't violent. And I just couldn't imagine him doing
something like that because I'd met him a few times,
you know, and it just didn't appear to me, and
he was that sort of person.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Grover said he had no idea about Soaper's criminal record.
Speaker 15 (42:52):
Oh, I never knew that.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
And really, do you think he killed himself?
Speaker 15 (42:57):
No? Why would he just put a brand new Yeah,
and you don't go and kill yourself?
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Nah?
Speaker 15 (43:03):
No, I find that very hard to believe.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Hello, Hello, Stella, Yes, hi Stella, It's Alison Sandy from
the Seven Network. How are you?
Speaker 15 (43:13):
Oh?
Speaker 16 (43:13):
I'm all right?
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Well, Ken Soper is gone. His widow is in Cans
and when I spoke with her, she was still mourning
the loss of her husband, who died in a traffic
accident in February twenty twenty two.
Speaker 16 (43:25):
Yeah, he was hit by the truck.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah anyway, Yeah, yes, I was so surprised by that.
It must have come as such a shock.
Speaker 16 (43:32):
Yeah, he can go and down the shop to get milk. Yeah,
that was it.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I'm sorry about Estelle. I did see that the police
sent some flowers though.
Speaker 16 (43:41):
Yeah, they did.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yeah. I didn't didn't realize that he was friends with
so many of them, but he seemed to be a
man of.
Speaker 16 (43:48):
Bo He wasn't friends with the police, but you know,
they just they were the police who were there with
the accident. Oh okay, and it wasn't the police. He
didn't have any friends who were, but they were the
ones who were there, and they came up that night,
not all of the stuff that goes on, and then
they came back one day with some flowers. Yes, being thoughtful. Yeah,
(44:10):
I mean I didn't know him and he didn't know them.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
But yeah, so really I wanted to just talk a
little bit about about his character because at this stage,
the only person I've spoken to was his first wife,
which was Pamela.
Speaker 16 (44:23):
And she she's his second.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Wife, second wife. Sorry, I didn't realize that was he
was married before her? Okay? Okay? So and you were
his third? Is that yft? Okay? And last obviously all right?
So so yeah, so at this stage I only really
have her information.
Speaker 16 (44:40):
Which wouldn't be very nice because she hated him and
he hated her.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Okay, So do you know what happened there or did
he ever verbalize that? Because yeah, I mean that certainly she.
Speaker 16 (44:53):
Has something to tell you, because I don't know. I
wasn't there, but and it's going on a podcast, which
you know then my forever, and I have no idea
what she said, but I do understand that she said
some very un very not very nice things about him
to you.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she has. She said that he was
a he.
Speaker 16 (45:12):
Was violent, that's right, but he's never I was with
him twenty five years and he was never violent in
twenty five years. So I can't see that it would
have he would have changed, because a nature like that
doesn't change.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah, he did. He did obviously like his guns, though he.
Speaker 16 (45:29):
Was not really in the twenty five years that he was. Oh,
we were together. He had his guns and he's never
fired a shot.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
But he didn't go out like he sounded like. He
went out with other people like Glenn Graham and not
to do shit.
Speaker 16 (45:43):
Not In all the years I knew him, he never
went anywhere with anybody with guns and shooting.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Okay, So from your perspective, that was that was something
that you never saw, no, Okay. And what about the
issues because there was the you know, the very sad
case involving.
Speaker 16 (46:00):
I know nothing about that. He swore on the Bible.
He didn't do it. He swore it, and it was
all in his opinion, fabricated so that she could get
custody of her kids. I've got all the paperwork, he
kept all the paperwork as a psychologists who interviewed his
kids and interviewed him, and all her side, her side
(46:24):
of psychologists said he was all these things withdrawn quiet,
blah blah blah blah. But the kids said that he
was violent, etc. But the court had a psychologist talk
to the kids and they said those kids, and that
one said those kids were not frightened of him at all.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Okay. Yeah, this was the same relation.
Speaker 16 (46:49):
Yeah, And so yeah, he swore and it really really
upset him, and he said that she didn't see anything
because there wasn't anything, and he never gave her. Right
up to his death, he never forgave her.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
We have taken up parts of what Stella said here
to protect the identity of the victim. But Stella was
referring to how the child's sex conviction involving someone else
destroyed the relationship Ken had with his daughter because of
her involvement in his conviction. His daughter was only five
years old at the time, and when I asked Pamela
(47:23):
about this, she was confused too, as her daughter was
not involved in the court proceedings.
Speaker 16 (47:29):
No, I've never seen, spoken or had anything. But this
is his daughter.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Oh okay, the one that's Hamela's done, the.
Speaker 16 (47:36):
One that Pamela said. And I have a diary entry
from Ken that she said was not his daughter, So
who knows what went on. I wasn't there. I don't
live that kind of light, you know. But she was
angry and bitter. This is this pam and her daughter
is no different her daughter, and it's got nothing to
(47:57):
do with that. But her daughter is constantly sending me
to tea telling me that he loved her dearly when
he actually didn't and I know that for a fact,
and he left her nothing in his will, and he
actually left a stat deck to say she was not
to receive anything out of his estate. Yeah, and that
was that. But he's always said that nothing she did
(48:19):
now would ever make up for what she did then.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, And he was obviously a different man with you.
Speaker 16 (48:24):
He was not like that. No, never, And you can
ask anyone around here.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
So what about his kids though, which like, because I
know he had two two? Yes, Pamela, he has how many?
In with you?
Speaker 8 (48:35):
Nun?
Speaker 16 (48:35):
The army has two children?
Speaker 1 (48:36):
All right, no worries. So I wasn't quite sure. I
figured that he must have had more children because I
know in his statement he said that him and Gwen
were trying. So, so how did you do meet?
Speaker 16 (48:47):
Oh? We just knew each other. Okay, you believe it
of that? Okay, you know you meet people.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
See Okay. Did you know him though back when he
knew Gwen?
Speaker 2 (48:55):
No?
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Okay, so it was late. I see him many later, Okay.
Speaker 15 (48:57):
Now.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
The only reason I ask is obviously the way that
he's described by his previous wives is different to the
way you know. So yeah, I can only if you
knew him in a different time. And that's very nice.
Speaker 16 (49:09):
Well, I met him in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
So when did she die eighty three?
Speaker 16 (49:14):
Yeah, so I knew him in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Okay, and how long till you got married?
Speaker 16 (49:19):
Oh it's not for business.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Well you don't have to say it, it's not.
Speaker 15 (49:23):
No.
Speaker 16 (49:23):
I actually told me you would call, and he just
told me you don't say anything. It's not relevant. These
people won't let it go. And he said, don't get involved.
So actually, oh, thank you, but I'm not going to
get involved. I was not there. I only know the
man that I knew for twenty five years, and he
was a nice man, and he was a funny man,
and he was kind me. Not this beating up people.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Man. Yep, No, that's fine. And you know what I mean.
It's important that people like you speak out because otherwise
we'll only have the negative.
Speaker 16 (49:53):
Ye, well, she's very negative.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Yes.
Speaker 16 (49:56):
Teld me that you had said terrible things about Ken,
you know, And I thought, well, yeah, people don't know him.
I mean, how can you be with someone all these years.
He's never laid a finger on anybody ever that I
ever saw. He'd get angry you know something, you know
how people get angry, not with me, not necessarily, but
(50:17):
with anything. But he would never get like that.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
No, it was only the conviction because obviously that was you.
Speaker 16 (50:23):
Know that And he said that was not correct with
regard to the girl. And yeah, and he said his
daughter lied and you know I have it on written
by a psychologist when they were interviewed, and she said,
(50:44):
Ken is not my father, you know. So what do
you get from that?
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah, look, you know it's obviously a very messy situation.
But yeah, really I just wanted the character analysis from
you about him.
Speaker 16 (50:59):
Well, he was fine person. He was a good person.
He was funny, and he helped everybody. He was great.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, so I appreciate that. If there's anything else you
ever want to say, we were.
Speaker 16 (51:09):
Except you know, I'd like to hang this girl out
to drive because you know, the day before the funeral,
she sent me a text saying, oh I want this
and this, this and this, you know. And then four
days after his funeral, I get a letter from her lawyer.
You know, she's a car and then she said that
he loved her dealing and she's so caring. He cared
for her, and she said he wrung her every day. Well,
(51:30):
he didn't because his phone was in my in my
phone account, on my phone account, and I've got his
phone and I've got his book of the phone log calls.
And he didn't wring her very often at all. She
rang him occasionally.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
And he didn't have anything to this son either, did
you No?
Speaker 16 (51:48):
No, I know one day at one time he is back. Now.
We were in Brisbane and he said his son through.
She told him his son was a mechanic somewhere and
Ken rang the number, didn't speak to him, and the
police told me that went to the police station wherever
(52:09):
he is and he said, I believe Ken said it
was my father. I believe you want to see me
And they said, yes, he's been killed. You want to
hear about it. And he said a lot of swear
words no and walked down.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
So that was that, there's no chance that Ken killed himself.
Speaker 16 (52:30):
Then No, it was bloody drug eating. He was hiding
his motorbike down the road, down the street to get
milk from the shopping center and a truck came out
from the side street and hit him, ran over him,
pushed him across the road and he died.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
That night. Did anyone know the truck over look?
Speaker 16 (52:51):
It's all irrelevant, okay, So I'll just leave it at that.
But he did not kill himself, God forbid.
Speaker 15 (52:57):
No.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
I just mean because you obviously the truck driver. That's
pretty that's pretty full on, you know. I gather he
just didn't see him.
Speaker 16 (53:05):
Well, that's what he said. Yes, he was charged by
the police and all that, so that's all they too.
But anyway, I've got to go, so I'll talk to
you later, all right, take.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Care, Stella bye. Understandably, Stella is protective of the man
she loved, but her claims about Ken's conviction for child
molestation are at odds with the facts that Ken Soaper
disowned his children and maintained his innocence does not change
a fact that he was a convicted pedophile. As Stella said,
(53:34):
God forbid, Ken would kill himself. The stigma of suicide
is too awful to contemplate, although some were quick to
assume Gwen had done exactly that as a young, loving
mother with her whole life ahead of her. The cold
(53:57):
case team handed their forty two page report to the coroner,
and as the inquest into Gwen's death approached, Sue Cole
could barely contain her emotions. She had high hopes of, finally,
after nearly forty years, restoring the reputation of her sister,
that the justice system would reject the abysmal investigation and
(54:18):
make at the very least an open finding or that
Gwen was possibly the victim of foul play. Surely investigators
would ensure Pamela's story would play a major role in
the inquest. Then, just two days before the hearings were
to begin, Sue was hit with a devastating last minute blow.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
We applied to legal aid, which is really the only
option that families like us have. We were accepted under
the legal aid scheme. The solicitor that started our case
drop doubt about a month before the inquest was due
to go ahead because his wife was having a baby.
(55:08):
So another solicitor took over and she did the very
best that she could. But before the first solicitor left,
he organized a friend of his who was a QC
here in Cans to act pro bono on our case.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
And I was a static by her.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
That I thought, how lucky have we We've got this
amazing QC who's going to be in our corner as well.
The inquest was due to sat on the Tuesday. I
was due in town on the Monday to have a
meeting with both him and the solicitor from Legal Aid,
and on the Friday afternoon I received were that.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
He pulled out the QC, that is, that he was
no longer going to represent us.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
So the case was then handed to a female barrister
in his chambers, but she essentially had the weekend to
get up to speed on a case that was thirty
eight years old, and from there on in it just
went further downhill.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Next time. What happened at the inquest.
Speaker 3 (56:11):
And it was one of the most traumatic, frightening experiences
of my life. I felt as though I was getting
treated as though I was a criminal. I was hammered
for almost two hours. My motives were questioned to the
point of where I felt I was being ridiculed, dismissed,
and looked upon with suspicion because I'd even begun the
(56:34):
whole process.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
Shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot Au
(57:02):
or leave us an anonymous tip at Shotinthdark dot com
dot au. If this podcast has raised issues for you,
please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them
at www dot lifeline dot org dot au. This podcast
(57:24):
is brought to you by me presenter and journalist Alison Sandy.
If you like what you're hearing, please rate and review
our podcast. It helps other listeners find us special thanks
to my writer, producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's sister and tireless
(57:44):
campaigner for Justice, Soue Cole, sound designer Mark Wright, graphics
Jason Blamford. Before our theme music is by Bob Kronk
the First and there is a link to his music
on Spotify in the show notes.
Speaker 9 (58:03):
Way tart Swoll, the Pains and Shot in the Dark
is a seven News production.
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