March 19, 2023 • 48 mins
Key witnesses give evidence and respond to questions as the inquest ends, leaving Sue with more questions than answers.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why can't we.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Find out what happened?
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Why won't anyone help us?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
It was not suicide, There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Shot in the Dark, Episode six. It is Wednesday, October thirteenth,
twenty twenty one, the second and final day of the inquest.
Sue Cole's evidence is still reverberating around the courtroom as
people file in. She had endured a raft of questions
(01:13):
suggesting that Gwen most likely took her own life and
that there was no evidence to suggest otherwise. She had
told the coroner under oath that she thought Ken Soper
may have killed her sister. As she told us in
her own words.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I've met can Sober, I saw what his ego was like.
I believe the fact that Gwen would rather leave him,
go and live in a in the much mentioned dirty
little flat with no money, battling on her own with
the boys and be with him, I think was just
all too much for him, and I believe that's why
(01:50):
you know he killed her. And the one thing that
Duncan Grover has ever said that I believe is when
he said at the in quest, Gwen said to him
the night before she died, if anything happens to me,
promise me you'll look.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
After the boys.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I believe she said that because she was meeting up
with can Soba that night to get some of her
belongings bag. There was a story that some of Gwen's
belongings had gone missing from under his house. I think
the scenario was Gwen was meeting up with him to
try and get there were belongings that actually belonged to
her oldest son. I think she met up with him
(02:27):
to get those those things back off him. Whatever happened
happened either he tried to force himself on or he
tried to force her back into a relationship with him
that had an argument that got out of hand, and
I believe that he killed her. I will go to
my grave believing that Gwen did not commit suicide and
that Can Sober was involved in it in some way, But.
Speaker 6 (02:51):
You know I was.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
I was forced to name him at the inquest, which
was very frightening for me as you can imagine. I mean,
he was sitting in the in the he was at
the courthouse within entire time. They let him be there
for the entire proceedings. So I was frightened not only
for my personal safety from him, but also frightened of
legal repercussions as well for naming him. But no, seeing
(03:11):
as you've asked, that's that's what I think happened to Gwen.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
The previous day, Ken had watched a sue called him
a killer. He is back today one of five people
due to give evidence, including Craig Block, the man who
found Gwen's body, but he doesn't appear in person. Also
Sharon Macady, her friend who claims to have been the
(03:41):
last to see Gwen alive. Elizabeth Grover, Gwen's former best
friend who she found in bed with her estranged husband
Duncan Grover, who will also give evidence. Craiglocke gives his
account of finding Gwen lifeless in her car on October fourteenth,
nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
I was coming home from town. I was just walking
because if I remember rightly, i'd had a car accident
and my car was off the road. But I was
walking down past the hockey fields on the side of
the road, and as I came past the car, I
think it was a little Japanese car. I'm not too sure,
to be honest, it was a long time ago. I
remember seeing a lady sitting in the car and as
(04:23):
I glanced in as I was walking by, and sort
of noticed there was a rifle between the legs, and
I said something like, hey, mate, are you okay? Do
you need a bit of help? And then I looked
in and saw that she was deceased. And as I
was walking back, so like a couple of hundred meters
from home, and ran home and rung the police and
just said that it was my considered opinion that she
(04:43):
was dead.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's pretty much how it went.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Craiglock was nineteen years old at the time, and his
recollection is clear. As he tells counsel assisting the coroner,
Joe Crawford.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Missed alone, could just briefly when you described seeing a
rifle between her legs. Yeah, how clear is your memory
of where the woman was positioned in the car and
where the rifle.
Speaker 6 (05:09):
Was, mate, She was sitting in the driver's seat, bolt upright,
and the rifles between her legs and it was sitting
bolt up right between the legs.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Is it possible that she may have been seated in
the driver's seat but slumped over towards the passenger's.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Seats, right, Yeah, No, she was sitting upright, because I
remember like sticking my head down and noticing that.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Her eyes, well her eyes were bulging. And that's how
it made me.
Speaker 6 (05:30):
Guess that she'd passed away, because she was sitting bolt
upright in the car like you would if you were driving,
and the rifle was between the legs, sort of like
pointing directly in an upward position.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
But at no stage did you see any other person
approach the vehicle after you saw you saw the woman
in the car?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (05:49):
No, no, I mean like literally, I went went home
and made the phone call, went on the vack veranda
to wait, and yeah, I saw nobody go near the car.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Under brief cross examination, Craiglocke admits he did not keep
his eyes on Gwen's car the entire time after he
ran home and called police, and that he did see
an undertaker arride and Gwen's body removed from the car.
Sharon Macady takes the stand and says Gwen was like
(06:21):
a mother to her when she was younger. She tells
the coroner that Gwen was only a social drinker who
rarely drank on weekdays. She should know because she was
living with Gwen in Can's when she met Ken Soper.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Did Gwen ever talk to you about her relationship with Ken?
Speaker 7 (06:37):
No, she was very private with that.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
But then in her next breath, Sharon says this.
Speaker 8 (06:43):
Yeah, she it was just that she used to mention
a lot that he showered her with gifts, expensive gifts.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Did you give you any impression about how she felt
about that?
Speaker 8 (06:52):
She was, Yeah, she wasn't comfortable with it at times. Yeah,
sometimes she felt she shouldn't accept them.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Sharon also reveals that Gwen told her the relationship with
Ken Soper would be short term. On the day before
she died. Gwen, according to Sharon, was upset because she
had left Ken and moved into a small apartment with
very little support.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Was Gwen experiencing any financial difficulty at that time? Yes,
what sort of financial difficulties were you aware of?
Speaker 8 (07:24):
She was more concerned about the boys and not being
able to give them a nice place to live. And
you know, she had a car payment, she had rent
pay she had, you know, she had the general things
that she just wasn't didn't think.
Speaker 7 (07:38):
She could cope with. I do believe that she had
a little.
Speaker 8 (07:41):
Cleaning job at the time, doing something, but it wasn't
going to be enough to help her through.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
How long did you spend with Gwen on that day before?
Speaker 7 (07:48):
A good five or six hours.
Speaker 8 (07:49):
Maybe it was late in the afternoon, early before early
evening that we actually helped her move into late that
night to ten thirty that night.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
When was the last time then that you saw her?
Speaker 7 (08:02):
That was the last time I seen her about ten thirty.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
At approximately ten thirty at night. What was how was
she then?
Speaker 7 (08:10):
Distraught?
Speaker 8 (08:11):
She wasn't happy, she wasn't in a good place at all.
She'd asked my husband to stay and have a drink
with her, but I had said no, I had to
get Michael home and bath and feed him, and it
had been a long day.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Did you see Gwen consume any alcohol at all during
that day?
Speaker 8 (08:25):
She didn't while we were moving, No, but she did
want to have a drink later.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
During the course of this inquest, there's been some concern
rays that Gwen's death may not have been intended by her,
that there might have been another person associated with her death.
Do you have any concerns about the circumstances of Gwen's death?
Absolutely not in your own mind. How do you consider Gwen.
Speaker 7 (08:49):
Died, She took her life, she had enough.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
The coroner asked Sharon about when she says Gwen her
husband Duncan in bed with her friend bet but Sharon
cannot be specific other than to say it was before
much of nineteen eighty three, while she was living with Gwen,
and just before she met Ken Soper, which is completely
at odds with her statement to the cold case team
(09:17):
in which she claimed Gwen had walked in on Duncan
and Betty the night before she died. As you'll hear,
Sharon Macady's recall becomes shakier as to whose account is
more reliable. Considered this, the currenter confirms with Sharon Macady
that the inquest and the cold case investigation is the
(09:39):
first time she has been asked to share her recollection
of Gwen, thirty eight years after the events she is
trying to recall. She tells Sue's lawyer, Rachelle Logan that
she was the last person to see Gwen alive, and
the police investigating her death did not speak with her.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
And is this the first time you've been about the
thirteenth of October nineteen eighty three? Yes, okay, because after
the death of Gwen police didn't ask you any questions.
Speaker 7 (10:08):
No, okay.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
Were you aware of any police investigation in nineteen eighty three?
Speaker 9 (10:13):
No.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Sharon finishes giving her evidence, and the inquest breaks for lunch.
Nearly two hours later, the inquest resumes to hear from
three people who were very close to Gwen before she died.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Missus Grover, if you could state your full name for
the court, please.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Elizabeth June Grover Elizabeth or Bet as she is often known,
has been married to Duncan Grover since nineteen eighty six
and has been in a relationship with Duncan Grover since
before Gwen died.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
You commenced a relationship with Duncan, didn't you? Sorry, you
commenced a relationship with Duncan?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yes? Yes?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
When did that relationship commence?
Speaker 10 (10:50):
When she was away? Pretty much?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Did you ever tell Gwen that you'd started that relationship
with Duncan? Yes, she knew, Yes, when did she know?
Speaker 10 (10:58):
Well, she was in a relationship with so somebody else
and she wished, wished us all the best.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Was that relationship with mister Ken Soper.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
After Gwen and Duncan separated, Gwen went to New South Wales. Yeah,
Duncan moved in with you, didn't he? Yes, all right.
And there was an occasion after Gwen came back from
Cans came back to Cann's from New South Wales, where
she came over to your house and she found Duncan
in your bed. Would you agree that that occurred?
Speaker 6 (11:25):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
And that was the first time that Gwen became aware
that you and Duncan had started as sexual relationship. Would
you agree, No, she knew before that. Well, tell us
about that occasion to the best of your recollection.
Speaker 10 (11:37):
Gosh, it's so long ago. I really can't answer that.
I don't know, I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Is it possible that this occasion when Gwen has come
over to your house and seen Duncan in your bed,
that that was actually the first time she became aware
of you and Duncan being in a sexual relationship together.
Speaker 10 (11:54):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Is that possible?
Speaker 10 (11:56):
Nos, she knew before that.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Well, my question to you is how did she know?
Speaker 10 (12:00):
Because she told me she was in a relationship with
somebody else. I didn't know at the time. It was
Ken Sober.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
You see, you're telling the Cord that she knew because
she was telling you about her relationship with Ken Soper.
Speaker 10 (12:14):
She was arguing with him.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
How close in time to Gwen's relationship with Ken Soper
was this event when she walked in and found Duncan
in your bed?
Speaker 10 (12:23):
I couldn't answer that. I don't remember that. That's crazy,
I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
But are you accepting that there's an occasion when Gwen
came over to your house and found Duncan in your bed?
Speaker 10 (12:34):
Definitely?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, Yeah, this is an extraordinary exchange. Remember, Sharon Mackaty
told the Cold Case team and the Current of just
a few hours earlier that Gwen was upset because she
had discovered Duncan and Bet in bed together the night before.
That is incorrect, according to Sue's recollection and her lawyer
Rachelle Logan, who confirms it during her cross examination of
(12:58):
Bet Grover.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
You and Duncan did you get together in nineteen eighty Yeah?
In yeah, did you start a relationship before Gwen went
to Boglebrye?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (13:09):
And by that I mean a sexual relationship, Yes, okay.
And the time that Gwen walked in on you and
Duncan was that before or after she went to Boglebrye.
Speaker 10 (13:20):
She didn't walk in on Duncan and I she I
invited her in okay?
Speaker 5 (13:24):
And was that before or after she went to Boglebrye.
That was before okay? And then she went away for
a couple of years.
Speaker 10 (13:31):
I'm not sure how long it was. I think it
was a yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
And then she came back with the boys to Cans
and you and Gwen were friends, yes, And Gwen knew
of your relationship with Duncan. Yes when she arrived back
in Cans. Was there any animosity between you and her
about your relationship with Duncan?
Speaker 9 (13:50):
No?
Speaker 5 (13:51):
Was she upset about the relationship between you and Duncan?
Speaker 10 (13:54):
If she was, she never told me.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
Did she seem to you to have moved on with
her life?
Speaker 10 (13:58):
Well, she said she. She said she loved Ken Sofa
and she loved him more than what she did her hubby.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Duncan Bet tells the Inquest that she and Duncan helped
Gwen move into her new flat and that she did
not see Sharon mckaty that day. And she did not
see Gwen drinking at all on that day. Hang On,
Sharon told the police and the coroner that she was
with Gwen for most of the day up to ten
(14:26):
thirty pm. Now Betty's saying Sharon was not even there.
One of them has to be wrong. Bet continues recounting
how Gwen asked her to take the boys for the
night so she could fix up their rooms and have
them ready tomorrow, which was the day she died. Bet
also said she never saw Gwen handle a gun and
that the police did not question her after Gwen died.
(14:51):
When she was told that Gwen had killed herself, she
could not believe it.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Mister Grover, if you could please state your full name
for the court.
Speaker 9 (15:03):
Please, Duncan Roy Grover.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
You're currently seventy five years of age, seventy six now
seventy six now alright? You were formerly married to Gwen Grover. Yeah,
you're presently married to Elizabeth Grover.
Speaker 9 (15:16):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Duncan Grover recounts meeting Gwen in nineteen sixty seven in
the New South Wales country town of Bogobriye.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
During the time that you were living in New South Wales,
did you ever teach Gwen how to shoot.
Speaker 9 (15:28):
I let her have a shot out of the rifle.
I had had a bottle floating down the river. Let
her have a shot at that, and she missed it.
Of course, I think it was only one shot. That
was a high power triple two.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
And she missed twice. And she was using a high
powered twenty two point twenty two, yeah, triple two, all right,
point twenty two? All right? Is this the case that
you would load the rifle up for Gwen, handed over
to her, and that she would then take a shot.
Speaker 9 (15:56):
Yeah, yeah, Well I had to hold it in the
shoulder because she didn't know how to hold it even
so I had to hold sort of tilts and then
let her fire it, and she gave it back she
didn't like it.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Would you agree that there was a point in time
in nineteen eighty two where you and Gwen separated on
a trial basis?
Speaker 9 (16:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Notice that mister Crawford has just suggested to Duncan that
he and Gwen separated in nineteen eighty two, despite the
fact that Bette and Sue have already given evidence that
they separated in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Would you also agree that after that trial separation commenced,
you went and lived with Betty because you didn't have
anywhere else to live at that time.
Speaker 9 (16:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Would you agree that it was during that time that
you'd moved in with Betty that you commenced an intimate
relationship with her after a while? And would you also
agree that at a point in nineteen eighty two, after
the trial separation had commenced, there was an occasion when
Gwen went over to Betty's house and found yourself and
Betty in an intimate position. Would you agree?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Uh?
Speaker 9 (17:00):
Probably, I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
It's a yes or no. Do you have a recollection
of Gwen walking in on you and Betty together?
Speaker 9 (17:07):
Yeah? Yeah, I think Yeah. I was in bed and
she turned up late at night with a few beers
under a belt and walked straight in and goes to
the bedroom and said, oh, there you are, and turned
around and walked out.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
That was it, And that was the first occasion she
became aware that you and Betty had commenced in an
intimate relationship, wasn't it?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Well?
Speaker 9 (17:26):
Yeah, probably, yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
What was your relation? Sorry? And it was after that
time that it was no longer a trial separation, but
it was going to be a permanent separation between you
and Gwen, wasn't it?
Speaker 9 (17:40):
Yeah? Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
This account suggests that Gwen did not discover her husband
and best friend in bed until after they had separated
in nineteen eighty, when Gwen returned to Bogglebrye, but Sue
remains adamant that the reason Gwen left Cans was because
she had caught them in bed together. At the very least,
we can discount the suggestion that Gwen walked in on
(18:05):
them two nights before she died, and the suggestion that
it contributed to her alleged suicidal depression, a major shift
that reduces the likelihood Gwen took her own life. Duncan
then gives the account of the odd conversation he had
with Gwen just hours before she died.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
All right, can I take you to the events on Thursday,
the thirteenth of October, the day before Gwen died. What
do you recall of your interactions or conversations with Gwen
on that day?
Speaker 9 (18:38):
We helped, we helped them move into the flat that
she got, and then later in the afternoon she said, oh,
do you want to take the boys for the weekend happening?
And I said, yeah, yeah, no problem. Yeah. Then she
just said to me, if something happens to me, you
promise that you look after the boys, And I said yeah,
and she's no, I mean it, I really mean it.
If something does happen to me, will we look after them? Yeah.
(19:01):
But nothing's going to happen to you, you know. I
you know, I remember when Bette and I left Lair.
I said, it's strange. Why did she say that?
Speaker 3 (19:09):
How was Gwen at the time? How did she was
she happy? Was she sad?
Speaker 9 (19:14):
What?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
How would you describe her?
Speaker 9 (19:16):
She seemed okay? Yeah, you know, just I felt, why
did she say that? Because she's never said it before.
I just didn't know why she said it.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Well, I know now you said she'd never said anything
like that before. At any stage in the time that
you knew Gwen from when you first met, did she
ever express at any stage any desire or intention to
end her own life? Never did she ever exhibit any
signs of depression or psychological distress that you could observe.
Speaker 9 (19:46):
Not that I could make out. No.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Sue's lawyer, Rachelle Logan does her cross examination, beginning with
Duncan's recollection of when Gwen caught him in bed with
her best friend.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
The date that you and Gwen separated, Could the year
have been in nineteen eighty No, I don't know. Is
it the case that you commenced a relationship with Bet
in nineteen eighty when Gwen left?
Speaker 9 (20:07):
No, before she left she was up here in Cans
probably a year, maybe a year or so, Not quite sure.
I mean, I don't remember the dates that much.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
I'm a bit confused about that. Sorry, that's me. Can
I just clarify that. Are you saying that you had
a relationship or you started your relationship with Bet before
she left for Boglebrie. Yeah, okay, thanks. And so you
were in a relationship with Bet throughout that time that
Gwen was in bogabriye, yeah, okay. And she returned in
(20:36):
nineteen eighty two, And did you did they Did you
get back together with Gwen?
Speaker 9 (20:41):
No?
Speaker 5 (20:42):
No, So from when you left she left in nineteen
eighty or thereabouts to when she returned in nineteen eighty two,
you guys were separated.
Speaker 9 (20:51):
Yeah, once we separated the first time, that was it.
We never never got.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
Back together, So no trial separation.
Speaker 9 (20:58):
No, there you go.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Gwen left Duncan in nineteen eighty three, years before she
would die. There was no trial, separation or reunion, hardly
the kind of scenario that would suddenly years later cause
her to take her own life. Duncan also cannot recall
seeing Sharon mcadee on the day before Gwen's death, but
(21:23):
says she may have been there earlier when the bulk
of the moving was done, before he arrived to help.
Speaker 5 (21:31):
And this conversation that you had with her, that was
on the thirteenth of October nineteen eighty three, and that
is the conversation I'm talking about, is when she said,
promise me you'll look after the boys.
Speaker 9 (21:43):
Yeah, so that.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Do do you under Do you realize that that's thirty
eight years today?
Speaker 9 (21:50):
Yeah, so that was a.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Really long time ago.
Speaker 9 (21:53):
Tell me about it.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
And was the first time you were asked to recall
or speak about that day was in August last year
when police took your statement.
Speaker 9 (22:01):
Yeah, it was a surprise that why now it took
so long?
Speaker 5 (22:04):
And is it the case that you have a bit
of a vague memory about that period of time because
it's been a really long time since nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 9 (22:14):
Yeah, I had a car accident and that didn't help
me much. Affected me up here a bit.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
Okay. When was that car accident?
Speaker 9 (22:20):
It'd be hanging on about the twenty fourth of November.
It would be twelve months ago. I spent three months
in hospital recovering and learning to walk again. I couldn't walk. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Now, after you found out about Gwen's death, were you
asked any questions by the police at that time about
her last movements?
Speaker 9 (22:39):
I can't recall, but no, okay.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
Did police ask you any questions? Do you recall?
Speaker 9 (22:44):
No, not really. They just asked me to come with
them to identify, you know.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Did they tell you it was suicide?
Speaker 9 (22:50):
They said it appears to be okay.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
Did they ask you about your movements the day before?
Speaker 9 (22:55):
Not that I can recall.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
No, Okay. When police told you that it appeared to
be a suicide, were you surprised?
Speaker 9 (23:02):
I was? Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Yes. Did you think that Gwen could do something like that?
Speaker 9 (23:06):
No?
Speaker 5 (23:07):
And she wouldn't want to do anything to hurt her boys.
Speaker 9 (23:10):
She was always afraid of guns.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
I want to ask you about that. You say she
didn't like guns and she wasn't comfortable with them.
Speaker 9 (23:17):
Yeah, No, she wasn't didn't like them.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
And she wouldn't know how to load a gun, would she.
Speaker 9 (23:22):
Well, she must have done, because I used Well the
only time she fired, I lowed her.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
Okay, did you teach her how to load a gun? Well,
she watched me, and you had never seen her do
that before though.
Speaker 11 (23:32):
No.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Do you think she'd know what bullet went in what gun?
Speaker 9 (23:36):
Well she should, yeah, common sense tells you that anyway.
You can't put a little tiny bullet in a big shotgun,
can you.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
I wouldn't know. No, there's no Do you recall any
police investigation about the circumstances of Gwen's death after she
passed away?
Speaker 9 (23:51):
Nobody ever contacted me after that, just that one occasion.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
Thank you, mister Grover.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Under questioning from the lawyer representing the police union, Duncan
is asked if he knows anyone by the name of
ed Kinbacker.
Speaker 9 (24:04):
I've heard of him, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
He is then asked do you know him personally?
Speaker 9 (24:08):
Not really.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
When he identified Gwen's body, Duncan says he did not
see a bullet wound on her head and that police
told him it was in her mouth, As confirmed earlier
in this podcast. The post Morton report details the entry
wound in Gwen's left temple. He wasn't corrected, though. Caron
and narrator Wilson also has a few questions to ask Duncan.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
And mister Crawford asked you about an event where she
and the term that's been used is walked in on
you and Bed.
Speaker 9 (24:39):
But no, it wasn't Bet and I. It was just me.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
I was in bed, in Bed's bed.
Speaker 9 (24:44):
I was asleep. Yeah, we shared the same bed.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So Duncan says under oath that Gwen never caught him
and Bet in bed together. Rather, Gwen found him in
bed alone at Bett's house where he was staying. It
obviously had an impact, though, because when And told her
sister Sue about it in detail, saying it was the
reason she left Cans to return home to Bogglebry for
two years. The last witness is called to the stand.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Kenneth Cyril Soper.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Ken Soaper says he met Gwen at a party in
nineteen eighty three and very quickly moved in with her
and her two sons, first at the house she shared
with Sharon Macady, and then into his house. They were
together for about six months.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
And in that time that you were together, how did
your relationship with Gwen evolve or develop.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I'd proposed to her. We had traveled down to a
parent's place, and I had asked a father for a
hand in marriage. Although she wasn't divorced, I took the
opportunity to meet her family, well me to meet her family.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yes, and in addition to planning for marriage, did you
have any other plans together as a couple.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yes, she Gwen wanted to have a daughter that she
was trying even though she wasn't divorced, She was trying
to get pregnant.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Is it fair to say that the relationship you had
with Gwen, as far as you were concerned, was you
wanted to be partnered for life? Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
That is correct? We planned our future together. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Sharon mcadee told police that Ken and Gwen were together
for six months and only lived together for one month,
and earlier that day at the inquest, she claimed Gwen
had told her the relationship with Ken would be short term.
This is contrary to what Ken said that they were
planning to get married and trying to have a baby in.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
The time that you were together with Gwen. What observations
did you make of her consumption? Of alcohol.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
She liked drinking and she could drink, but hold a liquor.
Never saw a drunk Yep. When I went down to
a parent's place down there for the time we were
down there, she never had a drink, so she wasn't
an alcoholic. No, well, I don't consider her to be.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
To the best of your knowledge. In the time that
you were with Gwen, did you know her to have
any mental health issues?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
No, there was nothing whatsoever as a medical or mental.
Speaker 9 (27:09):
No.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
At the time of Gwen's death, were you still in
a relationship with her.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
No, she had moved out of our house approximately a
couple of weeks before a death.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Yeah, and what were the circumstances of her moving out
of the house.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Relationship had broken down?
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Are you able to say why the relationship had broken down?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Probably stubborn us on both our parts, That's about all.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Were there ever any arguments.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
No, as in arguing. No, we never argued, We never thought.
We never even disagreed on anything much.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Pausing here, That is not what Ken's mate Glen Graham recalls.
He said they argued often, and this was confirmed by
others who spent time with the former couple. But we'll
get to that later. Ken claims that after Gwen walked
out on him, he never saw or spoke to her again.
Ken recounts borrowing a rifle from his friend Glenn Graham
(27:59):
and keeping it at his home. He says he never
saw Gwen handle a gun.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
You became aware of Gwen's death, and it's the case,
isn't it that you attended the police station after you
became informed of her death? Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
That's correct? Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
And when you were at the police station you were
shown a rifle and a box of ammunition.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's correct. Yes.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Did you recognize those that rifle and ammunition?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yes, instantly?
Speaker 9 (28:22):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
And what did you recognize it as the rifle?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
As soon as I saw it, I knew what it
was from the markings on it and everything on it.
That really was it was out there?
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Whose was it?
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Glenn Graham's rifle? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:33):
And the ammunition was at the ammunition you kept in
the glove box.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Then they showed me the ammunition up up high in
a in a box. And as soon as I saw
that ammunition, I knew that was supposed to be in
my car and it was there.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Your honor, I'm about to open a line of questioning
that may warrant the caution.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
All right, So.
Speaker 11 (28:55):
Mister Crawfoot has indicated that he intends to move into
a line of questioning the answers to it, which potentially
may incriminate you. Would it be your intention to object
to answering those questions.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
No, not at all.
Speaker 11 (29:07):
Perhaps I can put it this way without relevant protections,
where the answers can't be used against you.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
No, that's just ask the questions. It's quite all right,
your honor.
Speaker 11 (29:17):
All right, well, look, I will, out of an abundance
of caution, just afford you the protection of Section thirty
nine of the Coroner's Act two thousand and three, whereby
if you were to refuse to give oral evidence at
an inquest because the evidence would tend to incriminate you,
I will require you to answer those questions because I
consider that it is in the public interest to do so.
(29:39):
The evidence would not be admissible against you in any
other proceeding other than a proceeding for perjury, that is,
if the answer is not true. Do you understand that, sir.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yes, yes, of course, thanks mister Crawford.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Mister Soper, there's been oral evidence given during the course
of these proceedings that you may have caused or contributed
to Gwen's death. Did you cause or contribute to her
death in any way?
Speaker 9 (30:03):
No?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
None, whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Did you shoot Gwen Grover?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
No? No, sorry, no, no, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Sue had very publicly stated her opinion that Ken Soper
was responsible for a sister's death. Now her lawyer, Rachelle
Logan had the opportunity to cross examine him about what
had happened.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Good afternoon, mister soaper. As I understand your evidence to
the counsel assisting you and Gwen were engaged? Is that right?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
Were you and Gwen engaged to be married?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yes, that's correct. Yeah, yeah, we were planning to get married, yes, yeah,
but she wasn't divorced though.
Speaker 5 (30:47):
You had asked for her hand in marriage, correct, yes, okay.
And you were trying for a baby is that right?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
That's correct? Yes, sorry, she was trying for a baby. Yeah,
and obviously it involves both.
Speaker 5 (31:00):
Yeah, okay. And who decided that the relationship was over
Gwen did?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (31:05):
Okay. That would have been upsetting though, wouldn't it.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Yeah, And you didn't want to break up?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
No, I didn't want to break up.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
No, I didn't, okay. And she decided to move out
of your house? Yes, And you didn't want her to
move out of your house?
Speaker 9 (31:19):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I'm sorry. I don't know what my feelings were on
that one. I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (31:24):
No, okay. It was upsetting to you that she was
moving out of the house, would you agree with that?
Speaker 9 (31:29):
No?
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Disturbing that that things things have broken down? Yes?
Speaker 5 (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, okay. And so it would have been upsetting
to end a relationship with somebody who you were engaged to.
You would agree with that, yes?
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yes, Their well wind romance had resulted in an engagement,
plans for a new baby, and a shared light together
to suddenly nothing. Why still, we don't know. Ken Soprah
(32:03):
said they had an argument after Gwen's son pushed ahead
of her as they entered the house. But could that
really be a reason to abandon a partner, a home,
and a future?
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Okay? So all right? Did you help Duncan organize the
cremation of Gwen?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
No, it was his he organized that. I was there
when the undertaker was talking to him.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
Did she ever express this, is Gwen ever express a
view about cremation or burial?
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yes? We talked about that. What did she say when
we were going down to see her father? She said
she wanted to be cremated. She didn't want to be
buried down there because the body's float in the floods.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
This is something Sue says she's never heard of, and
that she can't imagine her sister having said it does
seem odd that she would bring this up with a
man she'd only known for about six months.
Speaker 5 (32:49):
Okay. Some questions were asked by the counsel assisting about
hunting trips and guns and Gwen's usage of guns. You'd accept, though,
that Gwen was not a user of guns when you
went on your hunting trips. No, never, No, okay. And
in fact, as far as you know, she had no
experience with guns as.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Far as I knew, none at all.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Yeah, okay, you didn't teach her how to load a gun?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I did? Yes, Yeah, you did.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Teach her how to load a gun? Sorry, did you
teach her how to load a gun?
Speaker 9 (33:19):
No?
Speaker 11 (33:19):
No?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
No, sorry, no, no, I misheard your question. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
So, according to everyone who knew Gwen, she had never
loaded a gun, including the rifle Ken Soaper says he
borrowed from his friend, Glen Graham.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
Did you tell mister Graham that you and Gwen had
an argument and she had left in the car?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I don't recall that at all.
Speaker 5 (33:39):
No, okay. Do you recall saying to him and the
next day she hadn't come home and you were really
worried about her?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
No?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I don't remember.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
No, okay. Did you tell mister Graham that Gwen had
taken the two two from your shed and used it
to shoot herself?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I do remember telling him that she used his rifle.
I don't even know if they were the exact words
that I used. The rifle she used was his or
something like that. Yes, I do remember that.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
Yeah, all right, But you don't remember telling mister Graham
that she took it from your shed?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
No?
Speaker 6 (34:10):
No?
Speaker 5 (34:11):
Did you store the point twenty two in your shed?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
No?
Speaker 4 (34:14):
No?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
And no guns were kept in the shed.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
No, They were just kept in your bedroom, Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
In a built in wardrobe in the bedroom. Yes.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Remember police did not take a statement from Ken Sober
until October thirty first, nineteen eighty three, seventeen days after
Gwen died and thirteen days after she was cremated.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Did you give an interview with police.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
When they showed me the rifle. They were just interviewing me.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Ken is referring to a conversation he had with police
two days after Gwen died. He claims his mother told
him Gwen had died and that she probably heard that
from Glen Graham, who lived next door to Ken's mum.
He says he then went to see a female friend,
Dale Kenn, who was a police officer. She called colleagues
(35:03):
and learned it was true, so Ken went to the station.
He then claims he had an off the record chat
with two officers in playing clothes. He showed him the
rifle recovered from Gwen's car.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's when I That's when I told them. They asked
me where I was on Friday. I told him I
was down the Railway Hotel.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Again, this is odd. He was at the Railway Hotel
the Friday night, which was after Gwen's body was found.
Why didn't they ask where he was the night before?
Rachelle Logan continues.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
By interview, I mean, did they read you your rights?
Speaker 4 (35:38):
No?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I don't like I can't remember.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
Sorry, Okay, were they typing?
Speaker 9 (35:43):
No?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
No typing, no, no, no, just talking.
Speaker 5 (35:45):
So I will just finish my question now with typing.
They were not typing when they were asking you questions, okay,
And was anyone making notes as they were asking you questions,
not that I saw, okay. And that's when they showed
you the right correct yes okay, and then you gave
a statement two weeks later yes okay. So really there
(36:06):
were two interactions with police in nineteen eighty three about Gwen.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Correct Ken Soper officially gave the police two statements, the
first in nineteen eighty three, the second in twenty twenty.
He says a female officer took his first statement, which
was then typed up for him to sign. That was
a statement signed off by then Constable ed Kinbacker. No
(36:31):
one has explained who the female officer was or why
Ken Soper was apparently questioned by playing close police two
weeks earlier without any record being kept. Crucially, and this
is a big contradiction, Ken says, the two plain clothes
officers he spoke to off the record two or three
(36:51):
days after Gwen died showed him the rifle and the ammunition.
Yet in his official signed nineteen eighty three police statement,
he says he was shown the rifle on the morning
of October thirty first, and that quote it was my
rifle and I had last seen it in the spare
bedroom of my home. Now Kenny's claiming he saw the
(37:15):
rifle in the police station two weeks ago in that
off the record chat with two unnamed plane clothes police officers.
Was he lying on the first occasion, or the second
occasion or the third occasion? Was he lying all three times?
Did the off the record meeting ever actually happen?
Speaker 5 (37:37):
Okay? On the in your first statement, you said that
the last time you saw her was on the twelfth
of October nineteen eighty three. Do you accept that?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, that's what That's what happened, okay.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
And then you gave a second statement and you changed that.
Do you accept that that is different?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yes? Yeah, the date is different on that one. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:57):
Why why would it be different?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
The twelfth was the date.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
Why would you have put the twelfth closer to the
day of her death? Why have you changed? I don't
know what makes you think it's a week now, because.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I never saw her for for a week or over
a week.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
I think you read over your statement in nineteen eighty
three before you signed it. I read through, Yes, and
then you signed it.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yes, that's my signature on there. Yep, correct, correct.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Yeah, Okay, did you raise any issues about errors?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Not that I can remember. I don't know.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
Okay. You recall in your first statement that you referred
to a point three two five caliber rifle. You agree
with that.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
That's a rifle. I never heard of that caliber.
Speaker 5 (38:35):
Yes, so you've changed then your statement and said that's incorrect.
You said that in your second statement, that's incorrect.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I can't remember what the rifle was now, so it
was too long ago.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
What is a three two five?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I have no IDEA three hundred and twenty five caliber
inches in calibration is bigger than the three three, but
it's smaller than this was. It's I don't know, it's
a pistol or what. I don't know.
Speaker 5 (38:59):
Well, it's like a different language to me, honestly.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Same here. I'm sorry, Yeah, I understand. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
So when you wrote the three two five, you don't
know why that was in your statement, And when you
say it had been taken out of the cupboard and
leant against it, that's not correct, is it?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, a rifle hadn't but yes.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
Not the three two five.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
No, it wasn't with them.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Okay. So would a three two five look like a
twenty two or could you not?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I've never seen a three two five. Obviously, when I
signed that, I didn't take really good notice of anything,
did I.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
In your first statement, you referred to the gun that
you were shown being your rifle, and you say that
you see the sentence starting on the morning of the
thirty first of October nineteen eighty three, I was shown
by police a rifle which was used by Gwen in
a suicide. It was my rifle, and I had last
seen it in my spare bedroom of my house. But
that's not correct, is it.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
No, it was Glenn's gun.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
Yeah, Well, why would you say it was your rifle?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I don't know if I did say it was my rifle.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
You don't know why you say that?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
So you were assisting police with any investigation and you
signed a document that you now say contains inconsistencies. Do
you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (40:10):
Okay, And you can't explain why there are those inconsistencies.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Obviously I didn't. I obviously I was too upset to
take particular notice of all this.
Speaker 5 (40:20):
Okay, you were upset about Gwen's death? Yes, yeah, okay.
Did you see Gwen on the day that she passed away?
Speaker 9 (40:26):
No?
Speaker 5 (40:26):
Did you see Gwen on the day before that she
passed away?
Speaker 1 (40:30):
No?
Speaker 5 (40:30):
Okay. Were you in the vehicle with Gwen on that
day that she passed away?
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Sorry, say that again.
Speaker 5 (40:37):
Were you in the vehicle with Gwen on that day
that she passed away?
Speaker 9 (40:42):
No?
Speaker 5 (40:42):
No, okay, on the day that she passed away?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
No, I never seen her that day.
Speaker 5 (40:48):
Do you recall if police ever asked you about Gwen's
state of mind at the time that she passed away.
Do you know what I mean by that?
Speaker 9 (40:55):
No?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I don't remember them asking me anything like that.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
Okay. Did you get the impression that there was any
investigation into her death?
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I kept waiting for have a coroner's court hearing or something.
I kept waiting for a hearing.
Speaker 5 (41:08):
Yes, okay. It was police that told you it was
a suicide. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (41:13):
No, the police only told me that she was dead.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
And so who told you or how did you find
out that it was a suspected suicide?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
No, I'm sorry, I can't remember who told me there.
Speaker 5 (41:23):
Okay. Were you surprised when you heard that it was
a suspected suicide.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yes, I have. I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
No, is that because that was completely out of character?
Speaker 2 (41:33):
That's correct, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 5 (41:35):
Okay, thank you, your honor.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Steve Hollins, the lawyer representing the police union and Detective
Senior Sergeant Ed Kinbacker, starts his cross examination.
Speaker 6 (41:49):
Do you know of a police officer by the name
of Ed Kinbacker?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
No? No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Do you have any friends in the police now in Queensland?
Speaker 2 (41:59):
No, no, there is no doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Remember Glen Graham's claim that Ken Soper was dating a
female police officer after Gwen's death, was that Dale Kendall
or another officer. Mister Graham was not called to give evidence,
so that claim was never part of the inquest. The
current then asked Ken whether or not he knew where
Gwen went when she walked out.
Speaker 11 (42:24):
On him, And you don't know where she left?
Speaker 5 (42:28):
Where she went?
Speaker 2 (42:29):
No, I didn't know where she went? No?
Speaker 5 (42:31):
No, okay.
Speaker 11 (42:32):
Did you then did you know that she then moved
into a flat of her own we've established essentially the
day before or the night.
Speaker 5 (42:39):
Before she died?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
No, No, I don't.
Speaker 11 (42:41):
Okay, So you don't know anything about the Lake Street
or the Esplanade flat. No, mister Soper, I'm going to
release you with the thanks of the court. I acknowledged
that you lost someone very dear to you thirty eight
years ago, and that you've been asked to rake back
over very personal and very distressing memories, and I would
like to thank you for coming to this inquest and
(43:03):
having the courage to share what you know and answer
the questions that have.
Speaker 5 (43:07):
Been put to you.
Speaker 11 (43:08):
You are welcome to remain within the precincts of the court,
although in fact, as it turns out, you are the
last witness, so we're moving into what we call submission now,
or to go about your business.
Speaker 5 (43:21):
That's all good. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
This is verbatim from the transcript of the coroner's court
hearing into the death of Gwen Grover. The wording is
a bit clumsy, but we aren't sure whether that was
a mistake from the person recording the proceedings or if
it's just the coroner's stumbling over her words. In the
next episode, we will hear excerpts from the closing statements.
(43:49):
They were the final words spoken at the inquest, an
inquest that has run for a total of just thirteen
and a half hours, minus four hours for lunch breaks
and an adjournment to prepare final submissions. That means the
Queensland Coroner spent a total of nine and a half
hours hearing evidence about the shooting death of Gwen Grover.
(44:13):
Sue is distraught and claims her legal team was also
dissatisfied with the inquest and believed Can Soper was guilty like.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
Coriina Andrews and Rachelle Logan both said to me at
the end of it that there one hundred percent certain
that Can Soap is guilty, Like they've both done a
lot of work in domestic violence areas and they said
he's just got a written all over him. It was
just a straight out like DVKS and Nickilda.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Please note I put this to both Karina andrew and
Rachelle Logan and didn't hear back. So this is Sue's
unconfirmed recollection.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
What we were told. And if you read cansober statements
from nineteen eighty three and then you read them from
the cold case in ninety twenty, and then you read
the inquest, you'll see that there are completely different stories.
But in nineteen eighty three, he said that on the Wednesday.
The last time he saw her was on the Wednesday,
(45:12):
she was packing up the things into the car and
leaving him. They'd had an argument, and she moved out
on the Wednesday, and she was found dead on the
Friday morning. Now, when Cold Case interviewed him in twenty twenty,
he said it was about a week before she died
she moved out. Then by the time we got to
inquest he was saying it was two weeks before she died,
(45:36):
that she'd moved out. I believe it was on the Wednesday,
because I believe his statement in nineteen eighty three is
probably the closest to the truth that we will ever
get out of him, because at the time he didn't
have the slightest inkling that he would ever be questioned
on anything. So I believe she left on the Wednesday
and then she died on the Friday. That's my that's
(45:59):
my belief.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Next, we bring the experts to examine Gwen's death and
the investigation, and I catch up again with the investigating officer,
Ed Kimbacker, now retired, who gives his unvarnished opinion.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
You're running at devil's yeah, because you're rocky well and
I want you to play You're.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Rock Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps
one of our listeners may help find the information that
reveals the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If
(46:45):
you know something or have a suggestion, please email us
at Shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot
au or leave us an anonymous tip at shot Inthdark
dot com dot au. If this podcast has raised issues
for you, please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or
(47:08):
visit them at www dot lifeline dot org dot au.
This podcast is brought to you by me presenter and
journalist Alison Sandy. If you like what you're hearing, please
rate and review our podcast. It helps other listeners find
us special thanks to my writer, producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's
(47:34):
sister and tireless campaigner for Justice Sue Cole, sound designer
Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before our theme music is
by Bob Kronk the First and there is a link
to his music on Spotify in the show notes.
Speaker 6 (47:55):
Way Sir, you.
Speaker 7 (48:00):
Alone the pains
Speaker 1 (48:03):
An Shot in the Dark is a seven News production
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Why can't we.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Find out what happened?
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Why won't anyone help us?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
It was not suicide, There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Shot in the Dark, Episode six. It is Wednesday, October thirteenth,
twenty twenty one, the second and final day of the inquest.
Sue Cole's evidence is still reverberating around the courtroom as
people file in. She had endured a raft of questions
(01:13):
suggesting that Gwen most likely took her own life and
that there was no evidence to suggest otherwise. She had
told the coroner under oath that she thought Ken Soper
may have killed her sister. As she told us in
her own words.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I've met can Sober, I saw what his ego was like.
I believe the fact that Gwen would rather leave him,
go and live in a in the much mentioned dirty
little flat with no money, battling on her own with
the boys and be with him, I think was just
all too much for him, and I believe that's why
(01:50):
you know he killed her. And the one thing that
Duncan Grover has ever said that I believe is when
he said at the in quest, Gwen said to him
the night before she died, if anything happens to me,
promise me you'll look.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
After the boys.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I believe she said that because she was meeting up
with can Soba that night to get some of her
belongings bag. There was a story that some of Gwen's
belongings had gone missing from under his house. I think
the scenario was Gwen was meeting up with him to
try and get there were belongings that actually belonged to
her oldest son. I think she met up with him
(02:27):
to get those those things back off him. Whatever happened
happened either he tried to force himself on or he
tried to force her back into a relationship with him
that had an argument that got out of hand, and
I believe that he killed her. I will go to
my grave believing that Gwen did not commit suicide and
that Can Sober was involved in it in some way, But.
Speaker 6 (02:51):
You know I was.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
I was forced to name him at the inquest, which
was very frightening for me as you can imagine. I mean,
he was sitting in the in the he was at
the courthouse within entire time. They let him be there
for the entire proceedings. So I was frightened not only
for my personal safety from him, but also frightened of
legal repercussions as well for naming him. But no, seeing
(03:11):
as you've asked, that's that's what I think happened to Gwen.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
The previous day, Ken had watched a sue called him
a killer. He is back today one of five people
due to give evidence, including Craig Block, the man who
found Gwen's body, but he doesn't appear in person. Also
Sharon Macady, her friend who claims to have been the
(03:41):
last to see Gwen alive. Elizabeth Grover, Gwen's former best
friend who she found in bed with her estranged husband
Duncan Grover, who will also give evidence. Craiglocke gives his
account of finding Gwen lifeless in her car on October fourteenth,
nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
I was coming home from town. I was just walking
because if I remember rightly, i'd had a car accident
and my car was off the road. But I was
walking down past the hockey fields on the side of
the road, and as I came past the car, I
think it was a little Japanese car. I'm not too sure,
to be honest, it was a long time ago. I
remember seeing a lady sitting in the car and as
(04:23):
I glanced in as I was walking by, and sort
of noticed there was a rifle between the legs, and
I said something like, hey, mate, are you okay? Do
you need a bit of help? And then I looked
in and saw that she was deceased. And as I
was walking back, so like a couple of hundred meters
from home, and ran home and rung the police and
just said that it was my considered opinion that she
(04:43):
was dead.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's pretty much how it went.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Craiglock was nineteen years old at the time, and his
recollection is clear. As he tells counsel assisting the coroner,
Joe Crawford.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Missed alone, could just briefly when you described seeing a
rifle between her legs. Yeah, how clear is your memory
of where the woman was positioned in the car and
where the rifle.
Speaker 6 (05:09):
Was, mate, She was sitting in the driver's seat, bolt upright,
and the rifles between her legs and it was sitting
bolt up right between the legs.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Is it possible that she may have been seated in
the driver's seat but slumped over towards the passenger's.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Seats, right, Yeah, No, she was sitting upright, because I
remember like sticking my head down and noticing that.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Her eyes, well her eyes were bulging. And that's how
it made me.
Speaker 6 (05:30):
Guess that she'd passed away, because she was sitting bolt
upright in the car like you would if you were driving,
and the rifle was between the legs, sort of like
pointing directly in an upward position.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
But at no stage did you see any other person
approach the vehicle after you saw you saw the woman
in the car?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (05:49):
No, no, I mean like literally, I went went home
and made the phone call, went on the vack veranda
to wait, and yeah, I saw nobody go near the car.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Under brief cross examination, Craiglocke admits he did not keep
his eyes on Gwen's car the entire time after he
ran home and called police, and that he did see
an undertaker arride and Gwen's body removed from the car.
Sharon Macady takes the stand and says Gwen was like
(06:21):
a mother to her when she was younger. She tells
the coroner that Gwen was only a social drinker who
rarely drank on weekdays. She should know because she was
living with Gwen in Can's when she met Ken Soper.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Did Gwen ever talk to you about her relationship with Ken?
Speaker 7 (06:37):
No, she was very private with that.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
But then in her next breath, Sharon says this.
Speaker 8 (06:43):
Yeah, she it was just that she used to mention
a lot that he showered her with gifts, expensive gifts.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Did you give you any impression about how she felt
about that?
Speaker 8 (06:52):
She was, Yeah, she wasn't comfortable with it at times. Yeah,
sometimes she felt she shouldn't accept them.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Sharon also reveals that Gwen told her the relationship with
Ken Soper would be short term. On the day before
she died. Gwen, according to Sharon, was upset because she
had left Ken and moved into a small apartment with
very little support.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Was Gwen experiencing any financial difficulty at that time? Yes,
what sort of financial difficulties were you aware of?
Speaker 8 (07:24):
She was more concerned about the boys and not being
able to give them a nice place to live. And
you know, she had a car payment, she had rent
pay she had, you know, she had the general things
that she just wasn't didn't think.
Speaker 7 (07:38):
She could cope with. I do believe that she had
a little.
Speaker 8 (07:41):
Cleaning job at the time, doing something, but it wasn't
going to be enough to help her through.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
How long did you spend with Gwen on that day before?
Speaker 7 (07:48):
A good five or six hours.
Speaker 8 (07:49):
Maybe it was late in the afternoon, early before early
evening that we actually helped her move into late that
night to ten thirty that night.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
When was the last time then that you saw her?
Speaker 7 (08:02):
That was the last time I seen her about ten thirty.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
At approximately ten thirty at night. What was how was
she then?
Speaker 7 (08:10):
Distraught?
Speaker 8 (08:11):
She wasn't happy, she wasn't in a good place at all.
She'd asked my husband to stay and have a drink
with her, but I had said no, I had to
get Michael home and bath and feed him, and it
had been a long day.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Did you see Gwen consume any alcohol at all during
that day?
Speaker 8 (08:25):
She didn't while we were moving, No, but she did
want to have a drink later.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
During the course of this inquest, there's been some concern
rays that Gwen's death may not have been intended by her,
that there might have been another person associated with her death.
Do you have any concerns about the circumstances of Gwen's death?
Absolutely not in your own mind. How do you consider Gwen.
Speaker 7 (08:49):
Died, She took her life, she had enough.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
The coroner asked Sharon about when she says Gwen her
husband Duncan in bed with her friend bet but Sharon
cannot be specific other than to say it was before
much of nineteen eighty three, while she was living with Gwen,
and just before she met Ken Soper, which is completely
at odds with her statement to the cold case team
(09:17):
in which she claimed Gwen had walked in on Duncan
and Betty the night before she died. As you'll hear,
Sharon Macady's recall becomes shakier as to whose account is
more reliable. Considered this, the currenter confirms with Sharon Macady
that the inquest and the cold case investigation is the
(09:39):
first time she has been asked to share her recollection
of Gwen, thirty eight years after the events she is
trying to recall. She tells Sue's lawyer, Rachelle Logan that
she was the last person to see Gwen alive, and
the police investigating her death did not speak with her.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
And is this the first time you've been about the
thirteenth of October nineteen eighty three? Yes, okay, because after
the death of Gwen police didn't ask you any questions.
Speaker 7 (10:08):
No, okay.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
Were you aware of any police investigation in nineteen eighty three?
Speaker 9 (10:13):
No.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Sharon finishes giving her evidence, and the inquest breaks for lunch.
Nearly two hours later, the inquest resumes to hear from
three people who were very close to Gwen before she died.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Missus Grover, if you could state your full name for
the court, please.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Elizabeth June Grover Elizabeth or Bet as she is often known,
has been married to Duncan Grover since nineteen eighty six
and has been in a relationship with Duncan Grover since
before Gwen died.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
You commenced a relationship with Duncan, didn't you? Sorry, you
commenced a relationship with Duncan?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yes? Yes?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
When did that relationship commence?
Speaker 10 (10:50):
When she was away? Pretty much?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Did you ever tell Gwen that you'd started that relationship
with Duncan? Yes, she knew, Yes, when did she know?
Speaker 10 (10:58):
Well, she was in a relationship with so somebody else
and she wished, wished us all the best.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Was that relationship with mister Ken Soper.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
After Gwen and Duncan separated, Gwen went to New South Wales. Yeah,
Duncan moved in with you, didn't he? Yes, all right.
And there was an occasion after Gwen came back from
Cans came back to Cann's from New South Wales, where
she came over to your house and she found Duncan
in your bed. Would you agree that that occurred?
Speaker 6 (11:25):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
And that was the first time that Gwen became aware
that you and Duncan had started as sexual relationship. Would
you agree, No, she knew before that. Well, tell us
about that occasion to the best of your recollection.
Speaker 10 (11:37):
Gosh, it's so long ago. I really can't answer that.
I don't know, I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Is it possible that this occasion when Gwen has come
over to your house and seen Duncan in your bed,
that that was actually the first time she became aware
of you and Duncan being in a sexual relationship together.
Speaker 10 (11:54):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Is that possible?
Speaker 10 (11:56):
Nos, she knew before that.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Well, my question to you is how did she know?
Speaker 10 (12:00):
Because she told me she was in a relationship with
somebody else. I didn't know at the time. It was
Ken Sober.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
You see, you're telling the Cord that she knew because
she was telling you about her relationship with Ken Soper.
Speaker 10 (12:14):
She was arguing with him.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
How close in time to Gwen's relationship with Ken Soper
was this event when she walked in and found Duncan
in your bed?
Speaker 10 (12:23):
I couldn't answer that. I don't remember that. That's crazy,
I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
But are you accepting that there's an occasion when Gwen
came over to your house and found Duncan in your bed?
Speaker 10 (12:34):
Definitely?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, Yeah, this is an extraordinary exchange. Remember, Sharon Mackaty
told the Cold Case team and the Current of just
a few hours earlier that Gwen was upset because she
had discovered Duncan and Bet in bed together the night before.
That is incorrect, according to Sue's recollection and her lawyer
Rachelle Logan, who confirms it during her cross examination of
(12:58):
Bet Grover.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
You and Duncan did you get together in nineteen eighty Yeah?
In yeah, did you start a relationship before Gwen went
to Boglebrye?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (13:09):
And by that I mean a sexual relationship, Yes, okay.
And the time that Gwen walked in on you and
Duncan was that before or after she went to Boglebrye.
Speaker 10 (13:20):
She didn't walk in on Duncan and I she I
invited her in okay?
Speaker 5 (13:24):
And was that before or after she went to Boglebrye.
That was before okay? And then she went away for
a couple of years.
Speaker 10 (13:31):
I'm not sure how long it was. I think it
was a yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
And then she came back with the boys to Cans
and you and Gwen were friends, yes, And Gwen knew
of your relationship with Duncan. Yes when she arrived back
in Cans. Was there any animosity between you and her
about your relationship with Duncan?
Speaker 9 (13:50):
No?
Speaker 5 (13:51):
Was she upset about the relationship between you and Duncan?
Speaker 10 (13:54):
If she was, she never told me.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
Did she seem to you to have moved on with
her life?
Speaker 10 (13:58):
Well, she said she. She said she loved Ken Sofa
and she loved him more than what she did her hubby.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Duncan Bet tells the Inquest that she and Duncan helped
Gwen move into her new flat and that she did
not see Sharon mckaty that day. And she did not
see Gwen drinking at all on that day. Hang On,
Sharon told the police and the coroner that she was
with Gwen for most of the day up to ten
(14:26):
thirty pm. Now Betty's saying Sharon was not even there.
One of them has to be wrong. Bet continues recounting
how Gwen asked her to take the boys for the
night so she could fix up their rooms and have
them ready tomorrow, which was the day she died. Bet
also said she never saw Gwen handle a gun and
that the police did not question her after Gwen died.
(14:51):
When she was told that Gwen had killed herself, she
could not believe it.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Mister Grover, if you could please state your full name
for the court.
Speaker 9 (15:03):
Please, Duncan Roy Grover.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
You're currently seventy five years of age, seventy six now
seventy six now alright? You were formerly married to Gwen Grover. Yeah,
you're presently married to Elizabeth Grover.
Speaker 9 (15:16):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Duncan Grover recounts meeting Gwen in nineteen sixty seven in
the New South Wales country town of Bogobriye.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
During the time that you were living in New South Wales,
did you ever teach Gwen how to shoot.
Speaker 9 (15:28):
I let her have a shot out of the rifle.
I had had a bottle floating down the river. Let
her have a shot at that, and she missed it.
Of course, I think it was only one shot. That
was a high power triple two.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
And she missed twice. And she was using a high
powered twenty two point twenty two, yeah, triple two, all right,
point twenty two? All right? Is this the case that
you would load the rifle up for Gwen, handed over
to her, and that she would then take a shot.
Speaker 9 (15:56):
Yeah, yeah, Well I had to hold it in the
shoulder because she didn't know how to hold it even
so I had to hold sort of tilts and then
let her fire it, and she gave it back she
didn't like it.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Would you agree that there was a point in time
in nineteen eighty two where you and Gwen separated on
a trial basis?
Speaker 9 (16:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Notice that mister Crawford has just suggested to Duncan that
he and Gwen separated in nineteen eighty two, despite the
fact that Bette and Sue have already given evidence that
they separated in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Would you also agree that after that trial separation commenced,
you went and lived with Betty because you didn't have
anywhere else to live at that time.
Speaker 9 (16:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Would you agree that it was during that time that
you'd moved in with Betty that you commenced an intimate
relationship with her after a while? And would you also
agree that at a point in nineteen eighty two, after
the trial separation had commenced, there was an occasion when
Gwen went over to Betty's house and found yourself and
Betty in an intimate position. Would you agree?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Uh?
Speaker 9 (17:00):
Probably, I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
It's a yes or no. Do you have a recollection
of Gwen walking in on you and Betty together?
Speaker 9 (17:07):
Yeah? Yeah, I think Yeah. I was in bed and
she turned up late at night with a few beers
under a belt and walked straight in and goes to
the bedroom and said, oh, there you are, and turned
around and walked out.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
That was it, And that was the first occasion she
became aware that you and Betty had commenced in an
intimate relationship, wasn't it?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Well?
Speaker 9 (17:26):
Yeah, probably, yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
What was your relation? Sorry? And it was after that
time that it was no longer a trial separation, but
it was going to be a permanent separation between you
and Gwen, wasn't it?
Speaker 9 (17:40):
Yeah? Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
This account suggests that Gwen did not discover her husband
and best friend in bed until after they had separated
in nineteen eighty, when Gwen returned to Bogglebrye, but Sue
remains adamant that the reason Gwen left Cans was because
she had caught them in bed together. At the very least,
we can discount the suggestion that Gwen walked in on
(18:05):
them two nights before she died, and the suggestion that
it contributed to her alleged suicidal depression, a major shift
that reduces the likelihood Gwen took her own life. Duncan
then gives the account of the odd conversation he had
with Gwen just hours before she died.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
All right, can I take you to the events on Thursday,
the thirteenth of October, the day before Gwen died. What
do you recall of your interactions or conversations with Gwen
on that day?
Speaker 9 (18:38):
We helped, we helped them move into the flat that
she got, and then later in the afternoon she said, oh,
do you want to take the boys for the weekend happening?
And I said, yeah, yeah, no problem. Yeah. Then she
just said to me, if something happens to me, you
promise that you look after the boys, And I said yeah,
and she's no, I mean it, I really mean it.
If something does happen to me, will we look after them? Yeah.
(19:01):
But nothing's going to happen to you, you know. I
you know, I remember when Bette and I left Lair.
I said, it's strange. Why did she say that?
Speaker 3 (19:09):
How was Gwen at the time? How did she was
she happy? Was she sad?
Speaker 9 (19:14):
What?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
How would you describe her?
Speaker 9 (19:16):
She seemed okay? Yeah, you know, just I felt, why
did she say that? Because she's never said it before.
I just didn't know why she said it.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Well, I know now you said she'd never said anything
like that before. At any stage in the time that
you knew Gwen from when you first met, did she
ever express at any stage any desire or intention to
end her own life? Never did she ever exhibit any
signs of depression or psychological distress that you could observe.
Speaker 9 (19:46):
Not that I could make out. No.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Sue's lawyer, Rachelle Logan does her cross examination, beginning with
Duncan's recollection of when Gwen caught him in bed with
her best friend.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
The date that you and Gwen separated, Could the year
have been in nineteen eighty No, I don't know. Is
it the case that you commenced a relationship with Bet
in nineteen eighty when Gwen left?
Speaker 9 (20:07):
No, before she left she was up here in Cans
probably a year, maybe a year or so, Not quite sure.
I mean, I don't remember the dates that much.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
I'm a bit confused about that. Sorry, that's me. Can
I just clarify that. Are you saying that you had
a relationship or you started your relationship with Bet before
she left for Boglebrie. Yeah, okay, thanks. And so you
were in a relationship with Bet throughout that time that
Gwen was in bogabriye, yeah, okay. And she returned in
(20:36):
nineteen eighty two, And did you did they Did you
get back together with Gwen?
Speaker 9 (20:41):
No?
Speaker 5 (20:42):
No, So from when you left she left in nineteen
eighty or thereabouts to when she returned in nineteen eighty two,
you guys were separated.
Speaker 9 (20:51):
Yeah, once we separated the first time, that was it.
We never never got.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
Back together, So no trial separation.
Speaker 9 (20:58):
No, there you go.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Gwen left Duncan in nineteen eighty three, years before she
would die. There was no trial, separation or reunion, hardly
the kind of scenario that would suddenly years later cause
her to take her own life. Duncan also cannot recall
seeing Sharon mcadee on the day before Gwen's death, but
(21:23):
says she may have been there earlier when the bulk
of the moving was done, before he arrived to help.
Speaker 5 (21:31):
And this conversation that you had with her, that was
on the thirteenth of October nineteen eighty three, and that
is the conversation I'm talking about, is when she said,
promise me you'll look after the boys.
Speaker 9 (21:43):
Yeah, so that.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Do do you under Do you realize that that's thirty
eight years today?
Speaker 9 (21:50):
Yeah, so that was a.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Really long time ago.
Speaker 9 (21:53):
Tell me about it.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
And was the first time you were asked to recall
or speak about that day was in August last year
when police took your statement.
Speaker 9 (22:01):
Yeah, it was a surprise that why now it took
so long?
Speaker 5 (22:04):
And is it the case that you have a bit
of a vague memory about that period of time because
it's been a really long time since nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 9 (22:14):
Yeah, I had a car accident and that didn't help
me much. Affected me up here a bit.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
Okay. When was that car accident?
Speaker 9 (22:20):
It'd be hanging on about the twenty fourth of November.
It would be twelve months ago. I spent three months
in hospital recovering and learning to walk again. I couldn't walk. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Now, after you found out about Gwen's death, were you
asked any questions by the police at that time about
her last movements?
Speaker 9 (22:39):
I can't recall, but no, okay.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
Did police ask you any questions? Do you recall?
Speaker 9 (22:44):
No, not really. They just asked me to come with
them to identify, you know.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Did they tell you it was suicide?
Speaker 9 (22:50):
They said it appears to be okay.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
Did they ask you about your movements the day before?
Speaker 9 (22:55):
Not that I can recall.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
No, Okay. When police told you that it appeared to
be a suicide, were you surprised?
Speaker 9 (23:02):
I was? Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Yes. Did you think that Gwen could do something like that?
Speaker 9 (23:06):
No?
Speaker 5 (23:07):
And she wouldn't want to do anything to hurt her boys.
Speaker 9 (23:10):
She was always afraid of guns.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
I want to ask you about that. You say she
didn't like guns and she wasn't comfortable with them.
Speaker 9 (23:17):
Yeah, No, she wasn't didn't like them.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
And she wouldn't know how to load a gun, would she.
Speaker 9 (23:22):
Well, she must have done, because I used Well the
only time she fired, I lowed her.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
Okay, did you teach her how to load a gun? Well,
she watched me, and you had never seen her do
that before though.
Speaker 11 (23:32):
No.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Do you think she'd know what bullet went in what gun?
Speaker 9 (23:36):
Well she should, yeah, common sense tells you that anyway.
You can't put a little tiny bullet in a big shotgun,
can you.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
I wouldn't know. No, there's no Do you recall any
police investigation about the circumstances of Gwen's death after she
passed away?
Speaker 9 (23:51):
Nobody ever contacted me after that, just that one occasion.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
Thank you, mister Grover.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Under questioning from the lawyer representing the police union, Duncan
is asked if he knows anyone by the name of
ed Kinbacker.
Speaker 9 (24:04):
I've heard of him, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
He is then asked do you know him personally?
Speaker 9 (24:08):
Not really.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
When he identified Gwen's body, Duncan says he did not
see a bullet wound on her head and that police
told him it was in her mouth, As confirmed earlier
in this podcast. The post Morton report details the entry
wound in Gwen's left temple. He wasn't corrected, though. Caron
and narrator Wilson also has a few questions to ask Duncan.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
And mister Crawford asked you about an event where she
and the term that's been used is walked in on
you and Bed.
Speaker 9 (24:39):
But no, it wasn't Bet and I. It was just me.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
I was in bed, in Bed's bed.
Speaker 9 (24:44):
I was asleep. Yeah, we shared the same bed.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So Duncan says under oath that Gwen never caught him
and Bet in bed together. Rather, Gwen found him in
bed alone at Bett's house where he was staying. It
obviously had an impact, though, because when And told her
sister Sue about it in detail, saying it was the
reason she left Cans to return home to Bogglebry for
two years. The last witness is called to the stand.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Kenneth Cyril Soper.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Ken Soaper says he met Gwen at a party in
nineteen eighty three and very quickly moved in with her
and her two sons, first at the house she shared
with Sharon Macady, and then into his house. They were
together for about six months.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
And in that time that you were together, how did
your relationship with Gwen evolve or develop.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I'd proposed to her. We had traveled down to a
parent's place, and I had asked a father for a
hand in marriage. Although she wasn't divorced, I took the
opportunity to meet her family, well me to meet her family.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yes, and in addition to planning for marriage, did you
have any other plans together as a couple.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yes, she Gwen wanted to have a daughter that she
was trying even though she wasn't divorced, She was trying
to get pregnant.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Is it fair to say that the relationship you had
with Gwen, as far as you were concerned, was you
wanted to be partnered for life? Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
That is correct? We planned our future together. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Sharon mcadee told police that Ken and Gwen were together
for six months and only lived together for one month,
and earlier that day at the inquest, she claimed Gwen
had told her the relationship with Ken would be short term.
This is contrary to what Ken said that they were
planning to get married and trying to have a baby in.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
The time that you were together with Gwen. What observations
did you make of her consumption? Of alcohol.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
She liked drinking and she could drink, but hold a liquor.
Never saw a drunk Yep. When I went down to
a parent's place down there for the time we were
down there, she never had a drink, so she wasn't
an alcoholic. No, well, I don't consider her to be.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
To the best of your knowledge. In the time that
you were with Gwen, did you know her to have
any mental health issues?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
No, there was nothing whatsoever as a medical or mental.
Speaker 9 (27:09):
No.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
At the time of Gwen's death, were you still in
a relationship with her.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
No, she had moved out of our house approximately a
couple of weeks before a death.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Yeah, and what were the circumstances of her moving out
of the house.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Relationship had broken down?
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Are you able to say why the relationship had broken down?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Probably stubborn us on both our parts, That's about all.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Were there ever any arguments.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
No, as in arguing. No, we never argued, We never thought.
We never even disagreed on anything much.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Pausing here, That is not what Ken's mate Glen Graham recalls.
He said they argued often, and this was confirmed by
others who spent time with the former couple. But we'll
get to that later. Ken claims that after Gwen walked
out on him, he never saw or spoke to her again.
Ken recounts borrowing a rifle from his friend Glenn Graham
(27:59):
and keeping it at his home. He says he never
saw Gwen handle a gun.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
You became aware of Gwen's death, and it's the case,
isn't it that you attended the police station after you
became informed of her death? Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
That's correct? Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
And when you were at the police station you were
shown a rifle and a box of ammunition.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's correct. Yes.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Did you recognize those that rifle and ammunition?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yes, instantly?
Speaker 9 (28:22):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
And what did you recognize it as the rifle?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
As soon as I saw it, I knew what it
was from the markings on it and everything on it.
That really was it was out there?
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Whose was it?
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Glenn Graham's rifle? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:33):
And the ammunition was at the ammunition you kept in
the glove box.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Then they showed me the ammunition up up high in
a in a box. And as soon as I saw
that ammunition, I knew that was supposed to be in
my car and it was there.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Your honor, I'm about to open a line of questioning
that may warrant the caution.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
All right, So.
Speaker 11 (28:55):
Mister Crawfoot has indicated that he intends to move into
a line of questioning the answers to it, which potentially
may incriminate you. Would it be your intention to object
to answering those questions.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
No, not at all.
Speaker 11 (29:07):
Perhaps I can put it this way without relevant protections,
where the answers can't be used against you.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
No, that's just ask the questions. It's quite all right,
your honor.
Speaker 11 (29:17):
All right, well, look, I will, out of an abundance
of caution, just afford you the protection of Section thirty
nine of the Coroner's Act two thousand and three, whereby
if you were to refuse to give oral evidence at
an inquest because the evidence would tend to incriminate you,
I will require you to answer those questions because I
consider that it is in the public interest to do so.
(29:39):
The evidence would not be admissible against you in any
other proceeding other than a proceeding for perjury, that is,
if the answer is not true. Do you understand that, sir.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yes, yes, of course, thanks mister Crawford.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Mister Soper, there's been oral evidence given during the course
of these proceedings that you may have caused or contributed
to Gwen's death. Did you cause or contribute to her
death in any way?
Speaker 9 (30:03):
No?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
None, whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Did you shoot Gwen Grover?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
No? No, sorry, no, no, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Sue had very publicly stated her opinion that Ken Soper
was responsible for a sister's death. Now her lawyer, Rachelle
Logan had the opportunity to cross examine him about what
had happened.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Good afternoon, mister soaper. As I understand your evidence to
the counsel assisting you and Gwen were engaged? Is that right?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
Were you and Gwen engaged to be married?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yes, that's correct. Yeah, yeah, we were planning to get married, yes, yeah,
but she wasn't divorced though.
Speaker 5 (30:47):
You had asked for her hand in marriage, correct, yes, okay.
And you were trying for a baby is that right?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
That's correct? Yes, sorry, she was trying for a baby. Yeah,
and obviously it involves both.
Speaker 5 (31:00):
Yeah, okay. And who decided that the relationship was over
Gwen did?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (31:05):
Okay. That would have been upsetting though, wouldn't it.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Yeah, And you didn't want to break up?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
No, I didn't want to break up.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
No, I didn't, okay. And she decided to move out
of your house? Yes, And you didn't want her to
move out of your house?
Speaker 9 (31:19):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I'm sorry. I don't know what my feelings were on
that one. I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (31:24):
No, okay. It was upsetting to you that she was
moving out of the house, would you agree with that?
Speaker 9 (31:29):
No?
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Disturbing that that things things have broken down? Yes?
Speaker 5 (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, okay. And so it would have been upsetting
to end a relationship with somebody who you were engaged to.
You would agree with that, yes?
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yes, Their well wind romance had resulted in an engagement,
plans for a new baby, and a shared light together
to suddenly nothing. Why still, we don't know. Ken Soprah
(32:03):
said they had an argument after Gwen's son pushed ahead
of her as they entered the house. But could that
really be a reason to abandon a partner, a home,
and a future?
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Okay? So all right? Did you help Duncan organize the
cremation of Gwen?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
No, it was his he organized that. I was there
when the undertaker was talking to him.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
Did she ever express this, is Gwen ever express a
view about cremation or burial?
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yes? We talked about that. What did she say when
we were going down to see her father? She said
she wanted to be cremated. She didn't want to be
buried down there because the body's float in the floods.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
This is something Sue says she's never heard of, and
that she can't imagine her sister having said it does
seem odd that she would bring this up with a
man she'd only known for about six months.
Speaker 5 (32:49):
Okay. Some questions were asked by the counsel assisting about
hunting trips and guns and Gwen's usage of guns. You'd accept, though,
that Gwen was not a user of guns when you
went on your hunting trips. No, never, No, okay. And
in fact, as far as you know, she had no
experience with guns as.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Far as I knew, none at all.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Yeah, okay, you didn't teach her how to load a gun?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I did? Yes, Yeah, you did.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Teach her how to load a gun? Sorry, did you
teach her how to load a gun?
Speaker 9 (33:19):
No?
Speaker 11 (33:19):
No?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
No, sorry, no, no, I misheard your question. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
So, according to everyone who knew Gwen, she had never
loaded a gun, including the rifle Ken Soaper says he
borrowed from his friend, Glen Graham.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
Did you tell mister Graham that you and Gwen had
an argument and she had left in the car?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I don't recall that at all.
Speaker 5 (33:39):
No, okay. Do you recall saying to him and the
next day she hadn't come home and you were really
worried about her?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
No?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I don't remember.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
No, okay. Did you tell mister Graham that Gwen had
taken the two two from your shed and used it
to shoot herself?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I do remember telling him that she used his rifle.
I don't even know if they were the exact words
that I used. The rifle she used was his or
something like that. Yes, I do remember that.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
Yeah, all right, But you don't remember telling mister Graham
that she took it from your shed?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
No?
Speaker 6 (34:10):
No?
Speaker 5 (34:11):
Did you store the point twenty two in your shed?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
No?
Speaker 4 (34:14):
No?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
And no guns were kept in the shed.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
No, They were just kept in your bedroom, Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
In a built in wardrobe in the bedroom. Yes.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Remember police did not take a statement from Ken Sober
until October thirty first, nineteen eighty three, seventeen days after
Gwen died and thirteen days after she was cremated.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Did you give an interview with police.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
When they showed me the rifle. They were just interviewing me.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Ken is referring to a conversation he had with police
two days after Gwen died. He claims his mother told
him Gwen had died and that she probably heard that
from Glen Graham, who lived next door to Ken's mum.
He says he then went to see a female friend,
Dale Kenn, who was a police officer. She called colleagues
(35:03):
and learned it was true, so Ken went to the station.
He then claims he had an off the record chat
with two officers in playing clothes. He showed him the
rifle recovered from Gwen's car.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's when I That's when I told them. They asked
me where I was on Friday. I told him I
was down the Railway Hotel.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Again, this is odd. He was at the Railway Hotel
the Friday night, which was after Gwen's body was found.
Why didn't they ask where he was the night before?
Rachelle Logan continues.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
By interview, I mean, did they read you your rights?
Speaker 4 (35:38):
No?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I don't like I can't remember.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
Sorry, Okay, were they typing?
Speaker 9 (35:43):
No?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
No typing, no, no, no, just talking.
Speaker 5 (35:45):
So I will just finish my question now with typing.
They were not typing when they were asking you questions, okay,
And was anyone making notes as they were asking you questions,
not that I saw, okay. And that's when they showed
you the right correct yes okay, and then you gave
a statement two weeks later yes okay. So really there
(36:06):
were two interactions with police in nineteen eighty three about Gwen.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Correct Ken Soper officially gave the police two statements, the
first in nineteen eighty three, the second in twenty twenty.
He says a female officer took his first statement, which
was then typed up for him to sign. That was
a statement signed off by then Constable ed Kinbacker. No
(36:31):
one has explained who the female officer was or why
Ken Soper was apparently questioned by playing close police two
weeks earlier without any record being kept. Crucially, and this
is a big contradiction, Ken says, the two plain clothes
officers he spoke to off the record two or three
(36:51):
days after Gwen died showed him the rifle and the ammunition.
Yet in his official signed nineteen eighty three police statement,
he says he was shown the rifle on the morning
of October thirty first, and that quote it was my
rifle and I had last seen it in the spare
bedroom of my home. Now Kenny's claiming he saw the
(37:15):
rifle in the police station two weeks ago in that
off the record chat with two unnamed plane clothes police officers.
Was he lying on the first occasion, or the second
occasion or the third occasion? Was he lying all three times?
Did the off the record meeting ever actually happen?
Speaker 5 (37:37):
Okay? On the in your first statement, you said that
the last time you saw her was on the twelfth
of October nineteen eighty three. Do you accept that?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, that's what That's what happened, okay.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
And then you gave a second statement and you changed that.
Do you accept that that is different?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yes? Yeah, the date is different on that one. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:57):
Why why would it be different?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
The twelfth was the date.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
Why would you have put the twelfth closer to the
day of her death? Why have you changed? I don't
know what makes you think it's a week now, because.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I never saw her for for a week or over
a week.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
I think you read over your statement in nineteen eighty
three before you signed it. I read through, Yes, and
then you signed it.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yes, that's my signature on there. Yep, correct, correct.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Yeah, Okay, did you raise any issues about errors?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Not that I can remember. I don't know.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
Okay. You recall in your first statement that you referred
to a point three two five caliber rifle. You agree
with that.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
That's a rifle. I never heard of that caliber.
Speaker 5 (38:35):
Yes, so you've changed then your statement and said that's incorrect.
You said that in your second statement, that's incorrect.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I can't remember what the rifle was now, so it
was too long ago.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
What is a three two five?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I have no IDEA three hundred and twenty five caliber
inches in calibration is bigger than the three three, but
it's smaller than this was. It's I don't know, it's
a pistol or what. I don't know.
Speaker 5 (38:59):
Well, it's like a different language to me, honestly.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Same here. I'm sorry, Yeah, I understand. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
So when you wrote the three two five, you don't
know why that was in your statement, And when you
say it had been taken out of the cupboard and
leant against it, that's not correct, is it?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, a rifle hadn't but yes.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
Not the three two five.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
No, it wasn't with them.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Okay. So would a three two five look like a
twenty two or could you not?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I've never seen a three two five. Obviously, when I
signed that, I didn't take really good notice of anything,
did I.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
In your first statement, you referred to the gun that
you were shown being your rifle, and you say that
you see the sentence starting on the morning of the
thirty first of October nineteen eighty three, I was shown
by police a rifle which was used by Gwen in
a suicide. It was my rifle, and I had last
seen it in my spare bedroom of my house. But
that's not correct, is it.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
No, it was Glenn's gun.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
Yeah, Well, why would you say it was your rifle?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I don't know if I did say it was my rifle.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
You don't know why you say that?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
So you were assisting police with any investigation and you
signed a document that you now say contains inconsistencies. Do
you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (40:10):
Okay, And you can't explain why there are those inconsistencies.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Obviously I didn't. I obviously I was too upset to
take particular notice of all this.
Speaker 5 (40:20):
Okay, you were upset about Gwen's death? Yes, yeah, okay.
Did you see Gwen on the day that she passed away?
Speaker 9 (40:26):
No?
Speaker 5 (40:26):
Did you see Gwen on the day before that she
passed away?
Speaker 1 (40:30):
No?
Speaker 5 (40:30):
Okay. Were you in the vehicle with Gwen on that
day that she passed away?
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Sorry, say that again.
Speaker 5 (40:37):
Were you in the vehicle with Gwen on that day
that she passed away?
Speaker 9 (40:42):
No?
Speaker 5 (40:42):
No, okay, on the day that she passed away?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
No, I never seen her that day.
Speaker 5 (40:48):
Do you recall if police ever asked you about Gwen's
state of mind at the time that she passed away.
Do you know what I mean by that?
Speaker 9 (40:55):
No?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I don't remember them asking me anything like that.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
Okay. Did you get the impression that there was any
investigation into her death?
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I kept waiting for have a coroner's court hearing or something.
I kept waiting for a hearing.
Speaker 5 (41:08):
Yes, okay. It was police that told you it was
a suicide. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (41:13):
No, the police only told me that she was dead.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
And so who told you or how did you find
out that it was a suspected suicide?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
No, I'm sorry, I can't remember who told me there.
Speaker 5 (41:23):
Okay. Were you surprised when you heard that it was
a suspected suicide.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yes, I have. I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
No, is that because that was completely out of character?
Speaker 2 (41:33):
That's correct, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 5 (41:35):
Okay, thank you, your honor.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Steve Hollins, the lawyer representing the police union and Detective
Senior Sergeant Ed Kinbacker, starts his cross examination.
Speaker 6 (41:49):
Do you know of a police officer by the name
of Ed Kinbacker?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
No? No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Do you have any friends in the police now in Queensland?
Speaker 2 (41:59):
No, no, there is no doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Remember Glen Graham's claim that Ken Soper was dating a
female police officer after Gwen's death, was that Dale Kendall
or another officer. Mister Graham was not called to give evidence,
so that claim was never part of the inquest. The
current then asked Ken whether or not he knew where
Gwen went when she walked out.
Speaker 11 (42:24):
On him, And you don't know where she left?
Speaker 5 (42:28):
Where she went?
Speaker 2 (42:29):
No, I didn't know where she went? No?
Speaker 5 (42:31):
No, okay.
Speaker 11 (42:32):
Did you then did you know that she then moved
into a flat of her own we've established essentially the
day before or the night.
Speaker 5 (42:39):
Before she died?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
No, No, I don't.
Speaker 11 (42:41):
Okay, So you don't know anything about the Lake Street
or the Esplanade flat. No, mister Soper, I'm going to
release you with the thanks of the court. I acknowledged
that you lost someone very dear to you thirty eight
years ago, and that you've been asked to rake back
over very personal and very distressing memories, and I would
like to thank you for coming to this inquest and
(43:03):
having the courage to share what you know and answer
the questions that have.
Speaker 5 (43:07):
Been put to you.
Speaker 11 (43:08):
You are welcome to remain within the precincts of the court,
although in fact, as it turns out, you are the
last witness, so we're moving into what we call submission now,
or to go about your business.
Speaker 5 (43:21):
That's all good. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
This is verbatim from the transcript of the coroner's court
hearing into the death of Gwen Grover. The wording is
a bit clumsy, but we aren't sure whether that was
a mistake from the person recording the proceedings or if
it's just the coroner's stumbling over her words. In the
next episode, we will hear excerpts from the closing statements.
(43:49):
They were the final words spoken at the inquest, an
inquest that has run for a total of just thirteen
and a half hours, minus four hours for lunch breaks
and an adjournment to prepare final submissions. That means the
Queensland Coroner spent a total of nine and a half
hours hearing evidence about the shooting death of Gwen Grover.
(44:13):
Sue is distraught and claims her legal team was also
dissatisfied with the inquest and believed Can Soper was guilty like.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
Coriina Andrews and Rachelle Logan both said to me at
the end of it that there one hundred percent certain
that Can Soap is guilty, Like they've both done a
lot of work in domestic violence areas and they said
he's just got a written all over him. It was
just a straight out like DVKS and Nickilda.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Please note I put this to both Karina andrew and
Rachelle Logan and didn't hear back. So this is Sue's
unconfirmed recollection.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
What we were told. And if you read cansober statements
from nineteen eighty three and then you read them from
the cold case in ninety twenty, and then you read
the inquest, you'll see that there are completely different stories.
But in nineteen eighty three, he said that on the Wednesday.
The last time he saw her was on the Wednesday,
(45:12):
she was packing up the things into the car and
leaving him. They'd had an argument, and she moved out
on the Wednesday, and she was found dead on the
Friday morning. Now, when Cold Case interviewed him in twenty twenty,
he said it was about a week before she died
she moved out. Then by the time we got to
inquest he was saying it was two weeks before she died,
(45:36):
that she'd moved out. I believe it was on the Wednesday,
because I believe his statement in nineteen eighty three is
probably the closest to the truth that we will ever
get out of him, because at the time he didn't
have the slightest inkling that he would ever be questioned
on anything. So I believe she left on the Wednesday
and then she died on the Friday. That's my that's
(45:59):
my belief.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Next, we bring the experts to examine Gwen's death and
the investigation, and I catch up again with the investigating officer,
Ed Kimbacker, now retired, who gives his unvarnished opinion.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
You're running at devil's yeah, because you're rocky well and
I want you to play You're.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Rock Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps
one of our listeners may help find the information that
reveals the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If
(46:45):
you know something or have a suggestion, please email us
at Shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot
au or leave us an anonymous tip at shot Inthdark
dot com dot au. If this podcast has raised issues
for you, please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or
(47:08):
visit them at www dot lifeline dot org dot au.
This podcast is brought to you by me presenter and
journalist Alison Sandy. If you like what you're hearing, please
rate and review our podcast. It helps other listeners find
us special thanks to my writer, producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's
(47:34):
sister and tireless campaigner for Justice Sue Cole, sound designer
Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before our theme music is
by Bob Kronk the First and there is a link
to his music on Spotify in the show notes.
Speaker 6 (47:55):
Way Sir, you.
Speaker 7 (48:00):
Alone the pains
Speaker 1 (48:03):
An Shot in the Dark is a seven News production
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