April 2, 2023 • 63 mins
Sue's support group of families of lost loved ones reveal the startling similarities to Gwen's case and what happened to Gwen's ashes?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot au. Also, listeners are advised this
(00:21):
episode contains some language some may find offensive.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Why can't we find out what happened? Why won't anyone
help us?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
It was not suicide? There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Shot in the Dark eight.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
The families of two women shot dead near Cairns more
than twenty years ago sobbed and cheered as a coroner
ordered one of the victim's husbands to stand trial over
their deaths. Two previous inquests had ruled it was murder suicide.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Julianne Leigh and Vicky Arnold were found dead in a
car at Atherton in North Queensland in nineteen ninety one.
The police who attended this awful scene were not the
same officers who investigated Gwen's death, but they did exactly
the same thing, immediately concluding it was a suicide by
(01:39):
one of the women, who had obviously killed her friend
first before taking her own life. How wrong they were.
After more than twenty years and three coronial inquests, a breakthrough,
as reported in the News in March twenty thirteen.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
Two best friends together during their terrifying and tragic deaths.
Vicky Arnold has always been blamed for killing Julianne Lay,
then turning the gun on herself in a four wheel
drive on a lonely bush track in nineteen ninety one.
Almost twenty two years and three inquests later, a decision
that prompted reactions like this, Alan Lay, Julianne's husband, ordered
(02:24):
to stand trial.
Speaker 6 (02:26):
My hearts racing Tommy's turning.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
It's an unbelievable result.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
It'spent such a long time.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Soverly wraps Vicky's name finally cleared. Her elderly mother there
to hear the result.
Speaker 7 (02:38):
I'm happy. I'm happy.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
That's all Allan Lay told police. The women had gone
fishing late at night on the Atherden Taberlands. Their bodies
were found a fortnight later. Julianne was strangled and had
two gunshot wounds to her head. Vicki shot three times.
The weapon was in her hand, her index finger near
the trigger. Coroner Michael Barnes said, erased the suspicions the
(03:02):
scene had been manipulated or staged. He was critical of
the police investigation. They failed to gather lost and corrupted evidence.
Speaker 8 (03:11):
There was no investigation. They completely destroyed all the physical evidence.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
Psychiatrists ruled Vicki wasn't suicidal.
Speaker 8 (03:20):
They trusted each other, so for her to do that,
that one's going to happened. Stay.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Coroner Michael Barnes said there are a number of aspects
to suggest Alan Lay had a motive to kill his wife.
The couple was under financial stress. Julianne had a life
insurance policy he stood to gain one hundred and twenty
thousand dollars from her death. He was also in a
sexual relationship with Julianne's sixteen year old sister. Two decades
(03:47):
of heartache for the victims' families ended with tears and
a warrant issued for Alan Lay's arrest.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, you can wake up tomorrow morning have a smile
on the.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Place, Cully Waters seven News.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
The first two inquests found Vicky Arnold had hit her
friend with a rock, slit her throat, and shot her
with a rifle, before turning the gun on herself and
firing shots through her chin and behind her right ear.
Speaker 9 (04:16):
A coroner's decision committing Allan Lay to stand trial over
the deaths of his wife and her best friend has
been overturned by a Supreme Court judge in.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Cans Before he could be tried in court for the
double murders, Lay had his charges dropped in twenty fifteen
when another suspect emerged. A former standover man and rapist
named Chris Dunlee had boasted to a prison cell mate
that he had killed the women. Dunlee was shot dead
(04:46):
in nineteen ninety four. The murders of Julianne and Vicki
remained unsolved. They will likely stay that way because police
did not establish and preserve a crime scene after they
leaped to the conclusion that it was a murder suicide,
meaning there is little forensic evidence retained to piece together
(05:07):
what really happened. This was a decade after Gwen's death,
revealing how little had changed in ten years. Even more
recently was the murder of Bruce Schuler.
Speaker 10 (05:22):
Bruce was goal prospecting in Palmeval up North, and he
was with three other people. Two people apparently came along
and Bruce was never found again.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Just to clarify here, Bruce had been goal prospecting at
Palmerville Station with three of his friends. He was killed
by the station's owner, Steve Struber and his wife Diane.
They were found guilty of murder and interfering with a
corpse at Canned Supreme Court in July twenty fifteen.
Speaker 10 (05:56):
The husband and wife have been sentenced to life in jail.
Life is fifteen years. That's why I sort of push
the nobody no parole. We still don't know where Bruce is,
but we still keep looking.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
His partner, Fiona Split is a remarkable woman who has
become friends with Sue after sharing a similar experience of
tragic loss. She also endured various issues trying to fight
the system with the same authorities and cans, but despite
not getting everything she'd hoped for, she was able to
affect meaningful change after successfully campaigning for the introduction of
(06:36):
new laws in Queensland requiring killers to reveal the location
of their victim's body or never be granted parole.
Speaker 10 (06:46):
Yeah, twenty eighteen, we got it in here and we
did try to do nationally, but I know you've got
to jump more hurdles to do it nationally, So I'm
glad someone's pushed it in New South Wales now and
hopefully nobody no parole will convince them and others to
tell us where Bruce's or where other loved.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Ones are by them. Fiona means Bruce's killers. I asked
Fiona if she'd been able to get over Bruce's death.
Speaker 10 (07:15):
No, I can't get over it because I haven't found him,
for one but I don't think anyone ever gets over it.
We did get a conviction with the minimum DNA and
evidence that they had, we did get a conviction. My
probably hardest thing was horrioral inquest, which I hoped we
(07:35):
would be able to get so that we could put
these people back on the stand and hopefully that they
would tell us where Bruce was. And that's my main
aim for everything is to tell me where Bruce is
so we can bring him home and laying to rest.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
That didn't happen.
Speaker 10 (07:51):
No, the reason they said was that they had done
everything they could and they got a conviction. So basically
it's done and dusted. There's no compassion. There's been different cases,
because I seem to follow a lot of cases that
have been similar, and depending on who you are and
(08:13):
who you're connected with, you seem to be able to
get what you want. But when you're just the little
person out there, no.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
There's a bit you've got to do a big fight.
Speaker 10 (08:23):
Like Sue and I and a few other people are
trying to make other people aware so someone else doesn't
have to go through the same things we've been through.
We'll be able to tell them what to do, where
to go, and things like that, so hopefully there won't
be other people like us. Like, there's lots of people
(08:44):
out there like us.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It's a too hard basket.
Speaker 10 (08:48):
It's a government organization where it just gets pummed off,
palmed off, palmed off.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Is it harder and a smaller community.
Speaker 10 (08:56):
Yes, I think that's probably correct, because you've only we've
got so many people to go to.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, and they know each other.
Speaker 10 (09:05):
Yeah, Oh, they all know each other. They're all interconnected
one way or the other.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Remember the coroner in early nineteen eighty four decided there
was no need for an inquest into Gwen's death as
he accepted the police theory without question. Sue Cole was
confident that a long fought for coronial inquest would establish
terms of reference to fully explore the possibility of someone
(09:35):
else being involved in Gwen's death. Instead, the two day
in quests skipped over any suggestions of the involvement of
other parties and the lack of desire by the police
to pursue them.
Speaker 11 (09:51):
It's so important for anyone that's going through what we're
going through to know that we're not alone, because when
you're doing it on your own, it's it's so difficult.
Speaker 12 (10:00):
It is so difficult. It's a very long, lonely battle.
Speaker 11 (10:04):
And if you've got someone like Fiona that at times
you know I can just message her and say this
has happened, what do you think? Or this is if
I'm having a really down day, we can message each
other and say how nothing's happening. We're trying everything we
can think of. No one's responding to us. Just to
have that support network, I believe for anyone that's going
through anything like this is imperative.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
The Lady Vanishers listeners will notice how different this was
to the inquest into the disappearance of Marion Barter, where
all possibilities were explored and much harsher criticism was made
of police in relation to their handling of the initial investigation.
I contacted the Currenters Court in Queensland to try to
(10:48):
ascertain why the terms of reference were so limited. Just
two days before Christmas, I received an email from Tim
Goodwin at the Queen's Department of Justice.
Speaker 7 (11:02):
Hi Allison, please see the response below from the Coroner's
Court and background relevant to your questions. Have a good Christmas,
Regards Tim. On eight December twenty nineteen, the Attorney General
directed the State Coroner to conduct inquiries and hold an
inquest into the death of Gwen Lorraine Grover in Cannes, Queensland,
on fourteen October nineteen eighty three. The Attorney General's direction
(11:26):
did not direct how the inquest was to be conducted.
The Coroner sets the scope of the inquest. Miss Cole
was represented at the inquest by lawyers, who were entitled
to make submissions on the scope of the inquest and
the witnesses and the evidence to be called. The inquest
scope was not limited to the adequacy of the police investigation,
(11:46):
as noted in the previous response. The inquest issues set
out at paragraph six of the findings dated nine November
twenty twenty one were one the findings required by s
forty five of the Coroner's Act two thousand and three
and two U the adequacy of the original investigation by
Queensland Police Service. Section forty five includes investigation of how
(12:07):
the person died, which is accepted as including by what
means and in what circumstances the death occurred. The inquest
explored Miss Cole's assertion that her sister was murdered. See
for example, paragraphs one oh six, one fifty five and
one point eighty of the inquest Findings copied below.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Explored is an interesting word to use here. The possibility
that Gwen was murdered was explored at the inquest, but
only very briefly and only to dismiss the idea.
Speaker 7 (12:39):
Please note, although the direction was given under the Coroners
Act nineteen fifty eight, the inquest proceeded under the Coroners
Act two thousand and three after the operation of the
nineteen fifty eight Act was effectively repealed by the Justice
and Other Legislation Amendment Act twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
The statement ends with a random selection of paragraphs from
the coroner findings.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
Extracts from the Coronial Findings Inquest into the Death of
Gwen Lorraine Grover Parah one oh six of the finding's notes.
Miss Cole does not believe the gunshot wound sustained was
self inflicted. Miss Cole says that in her heart, Gwen
did not take her own life, and that she thinks
someone else shot her and that may have been mister Soper.
(13:21):
Paragraph one fifty five of the findings notes, Counsel for
missus Grover submitted that overall the investigation and evidence was
insufficient to exclude a suspicious death and contended that, amongst
other matters, including that missus Grover's arm span could not
be established and therefore the possibility she could not reach
the trigger, and because she hated guns, and that relevant
(13:44):
factual matters did not line up, that I should remain
open to the possibility of contribution to her death by
a third party Para one eighty of the finding's notes.
Any suggestion that Ken Soper was somehow directly involved in
Gwen's death is debunked by the fact that Ken Soper
had no idea of Gwen's whereabouts from the time she
(14:04):
departed his Sturt Street home at six pm on twelve
October nineteen eighty three, or that she had set up
flat at one hundred and seventy seven Lake Street. Ken
Soper has not been considered a suspect. Any suggestion that
he staged or was somehow involved in Gwen's death was
not seriously pursued at inquest. No alternate theory was pursued
(14:25):
at inquest. I find no other person contributed to or
caused Gwen's death. Coroner's Act two thousand and three. A
coroner who was investigating a death or suspected death must,
if possible, find a who the deceased person is, and
b how the person died, and c when the person died,
(14:46):
and d where the person died, and in particular whether
the person died in Queensland, and E what caused the
person to die.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
After reinforcing the currenter's position that Ken Soper could not
have been involved in Gwen's death, we are reminded.
Speaker 7 (15:03):
That Section forty five point five provides that the coroner
must not include in the findings any statement that a
person is or maybe a guilty of an offense, or
be civilly liable for something.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
So, according to the state, Sue has no basis to complain.
Soaper said he didn't know where Gwen was or what
she was doing prior to a death, so he obviously
can't have had anything to do with it. Unsatisfied and
as determined as.
Speaker 12 (15:33):
Ever, dear mister Ryan, Sue.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Cole went back into battle for her sister.
Speaker 12 (15:38):
I am writing on behalf of my family to respectfully
request a reopening or new inquest into my sister Gwen
Grover's death.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Immediately after Coroner Narrator Wilson ruled Gwen's death a suicide,
Sue wrote to the Queensland State Coroner Terry Ryan in
November twenty twenty one, asking him to set aside that
finding and to hold a new inquest considering all the evidence,
including new information and other details which were not mentioned
(16:09):
at the first in quest.
Speaker 12 (16:11):
In support of our request as set out in section fifty,
I believe we meet these criteria for the following reasons.
One the evidence of mister Craig Locke. Please see Coroner
Wilson's inquest findings, page seven, paragraphs twenty twenty one and
twenty two. As stated in these findings, mister Locke saw
(16:35):
missus Grover was sitting upright like a wood if driving
with a rifle between her legs. Please see photos from
the scene attached, which clearly depicts Gwen in a completely
different position in the vehicle. Two numerous new inconsistencies that
emerged in the verbal statements of mister Soper, mister Grover,
(16:58):
Beck Grover, and sh Aaron Macadee during the inquest. These
include Duncan Grove giving evidence that Gwen had two black
eyes raccoon eyes when he identified her at the Morgue,
and Can Soper changing his alibi yet again. I have
obtained copies of the Queensland Policeman's Manual pertaining to nineteen
(17:22):
eighty three. I will refer to relevant pages below. There
are many instructions set out within this that have not
been met with the scant police report that was taken
at the time of Gwen's death. All we Gwen's family
have ever wanted is justice for our beloved sister, and
(17:43):
the inquest that was held in Cannes has left us
with more questions than answers. I hope you will consider
our request and I look forward to your reply. Thank
you for taking the time to read my correspondence, Yours, sincerely,
Sue Cole.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
After not hearing anything for six months, Sue sent another
request in April of twenty twenty two. Finally she received
a response from Terry Ryan, Dear.
Speaker 13 (18:13):
Missus Cole, application to reopen inquest and set aside findings
for Gwen Lorraine Grover are a Thurdier correspondence of twenty
third November twenty twenty one, expressing concern about the inquest
findings in relation to the tragic death of your sister,
Gwen Lorraine Grover. I've now had the opportunity to consider
the issues you've raised. You've identified a number of concerns
(18:36):
about the findings following the inquest into Miss Grover's death. Specifically,
you have raised concerns about the following matters new inconsistencies
which arose during the inquest. In relation to the way
Miss Grover was seated when found on the specific make
and model of the firearm, the original investigating police did
not comply with multiple specific general instructions. A newspaper article
(19:01):
describing Miss Grove as being found surrounded by beer bottles
and smoked cigarettes was deeply offensive to your family. Miss
Grover was noticed during post mortem identification to have raccoon eyes,
which you believed to be inconsistent with Miss Grover dying
from a gunshot wound to the temple. Miss Grover's cremation
documents include reference to a male deceased by the name
(19:25):
of Kevin Osborne, procedural complaints in relation to the conduct
of the inquest, delays, and behavior of various people which
perceived to be aggressive, bulling, or threatening. The re enactment
the scene did not consider the position of the test
subject's feet or the likelihood of Miss Grover ending up
slump to the left. Mister Locke recalled finding Miss Grover
(19:47):
as being seated bolt upright with a rifle between her legs,
which differs from the scene photographs of Miss Grover's body.
Important witnesses were not compelled to give evidence, including Grover
and Glengres. I am numerous inconsistencies arose during mister Sober's evidence,
including changed alibis, changing of dates relating to when Miss
(20:08):
Grover moved out, and who took his statement at the
police station. Whether a male or female officer. Miss Grover
would not have taken her own life, especially not by
way of firearm. I'm unable to consider concerns about procedural matters,
such as the conduct of persons at the inquest or
the failure to compel certain witnesses to give evidence. I've
(20:28):
considered all of your concerns and mature you have provided,
together with the coronial findings, transcripts of the inquest and
the Coronial brief of evidence. After considering the material, I've
decided not to reopen the inquest and set aside the findings.
I appreciate that you do not agree with the conclusion
that Miss Grover's death was the result of suicide. However,
(20:51):
home of the view that Coroner Wilson has made detailed
findings into all matters required by the Coroner's Act of
two thousand and three. Do not consider that the issues
you've raised include any new evidence that cast doubt on
the findings made by Corona Wilson, nor do I consider
that the finding was not correctly recorded Terry Ryan, State Coroner.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
We asked Professor David Ranson, Deputy Director of the Victorian
Institute of Forensic Medicine, for his take on the coroner's response.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
From your perspective, what do you think moving forward?
Speaker 14 (21:26):
You know would be classified as as a reason to make.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Mister Ryan set up and say.
Speaker 8 (21:32):
Well, he's putting himself on paper now as saying he
doesn't believe his new evidence and he's set that out.
I mean, the only issue is if there's a matter
of Look, and I'm not an experts, you did get
legal advice probably on this one, but you know there
are peal processes through to the higher courts in relation
(21:52):
to his decision, but they are often quite narrow on
what those basis of appeals can be. And you'd have
the specific queens and legislation to see what are the avenues,
and you did a bit of legal advice for that.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I think about that.
Speaker 8 (22:08):
You just got back to the attorney again and say
we disagree with the process because of this, this and this,
and we believe that you know, this is a miscarriage.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Justice and system.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Professor Ranson offered some advice, but clarified it was saying
the legal process in Queensland is not his expertise, so
at his request we've removed that. Yeah, no, fair enough,
because that's that's really the quandary here is that you know,
she said she made it specific that Ken Sober was
never a suspect. And I'm not saying that, you know,
as I said that he killed her, or that she
(22:39):
could even draw that conclusion. I'm just saying that, surely
that's enough reasonable doubt to say it was definitely.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
That is an open verdict.
Speaker 8 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, well you know that's what the Corona thought.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, I know, but I guess that's that's.
Speaker 14 (22:56):
Is that the woman that can sober game is his
alibi has not been able to be located on birthdest
and marriages or anywhere else.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
But that was just question at all. It was like
and to me, this sort of fixing with her.
Speaker 8 (23:09):
Yeah, I mean, this is where I have to say,
not the stand of the podcast. I mean I was
I'm very basically saying that in making any further appeal
processes like that, you need some legal advice to able
to articulate the elements of evidence that align with the
legislation on the appeal process.
Speaker 15 (23:31):
I get that, and look and look the Attorney General
can still make their own decision. Yet again absolutely yeah, yeah,
it was just the fact that, like there's so many
things like even the fact that she was cremated almost
immediately and no one, no one, not even like the
husband or the boyfriend were interviewed until days later.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
It was just like what the.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Anyway?
Speaker 8 (23:54):
So yeah, post hock issues are interesting because they go
to sort of those broader emotional contexts of what might
have happened, but they're not primary evidence. Their interesting post
hoc circumstantial evidence, and their way depends on the social
context in which they occurred.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Professor Ranson reiterated the main floor with this investigation was
officers not interviewing the person who found Gwen's body straight away.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
She wasn't lying on the side, she was sitting up.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
At the car when's death should not have been considered
a suicide prior to that happening. As we've discussed, the
first time police spoke to Craiglock was thirty eight years later.
Speaker 8 (24:39):
When you're going to review a case neary forty years later,
the absence of that original interview of the first person
who found the body is a significant lack. It's a
very important distinction to draw right at the beginning of investigation.
Do we categorize this as homicide to be categorized at
the suicide keep a completely open mind, and there was
(25:03):
I'm sure in older times a more of what I
call a gut feel approach to investigation, whereas today it's
a much more regimented, formulaic approach to investigation, which tends
to reduce initial bias sort of process wasn't as rigid
or well constructed or even thought about in old and
(25:26):
investigation times.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah. Yeah, even as the handbook said that they had
to treat everything as suspicious until they.
Speaker 8 (25:34):
Sure was easy to say, difficult to make sure that
cognitive bias issues don't actually impende on an investigation. We're
very conscious of these things down we put particular processes
in place.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
To try and prevent that happening.
Speaker 8 (25:50):
And whilst you know, the old manuals would have said
don't do this, or do this or whatever, that doesn't
mean to say they were necessarily followed.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Thanks for coming in and joining us. I've had a
great thing, so I'm really excited.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
To discuss Gwen's case. I enlisted a very special group
of people on a video chat with first hand experience
of losing a loved one and all the subsequent dealings
with police and the courts. The group is called Searchlight.
When's sister Sue Cole, of course, I have I love
(26:25):
Mark and Bay Hello, they are beautiful people. Joined by
Mark and Fay Levison, whose son Matt died in two
thousand and seven. His body was missing until his older
boyfriend signed an immunity deal with police. And led them
to his Graves's.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Just how lovely Anna here, Anna Davis.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Hi, Anda, lovely to meet you.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I like your jumpers.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah, hello, I'm so relieved. I'm thinking, gosh, I hope
it's not a dress up meeting Anna Davy, whose niece
Amy Wensley, was found dead outside her Perth home in
twenty fourteen, killed by a shotgun wound police say was
self inflicted. Yeah, Hi, Jerry, good to meet you. Virtually,
(27:15):
I'm good. Thank you. Jerry Thornton, the former Queensland police
detective who solved the murder of a woman originally thought
to have died by accident.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Noticed Alison.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Alison Sandy's joining us today. I think you might have
met Gary somewhere before.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Probably we see everyone knows Gary. Hi, Gary, how are you?
And Gary Jubilan a former New South Wales police detective
who worked on some of the biggest cases in the
state and now hosts the podcast I Catch Killers.
Speaker 16 (27:48):
If the teachers didn't come out, that case wouldn't have
been for the court.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
So the media has its place to put ads along.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Absolutely, it's the only way that the right thing happens.
You know, you know when they say not to talk
to the media. That's about flag.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, and that's very rare situation. You can tell someone. Look,
we just don't want you saying this, alixand and Gary.
Speaker 17 (28:11):
The problem is see when we the first far this
back in two thousand and seven, we were you know,
we were trust the police going up the police did
Barty figure they know what's to get the expert.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Then I was going on and don't talk the press.
That can hit the brief. Okay, we didn't win, you
know better. Yeah, a fucking chatter that now, Yeah, you
got to push it.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Searchlight is a group of families of victims, retire police
and victim advocates from various places all over Australia who
meet once a month online. Sue is the founder and
came into contact with each of them through her campaign
for Justice for Gwen and everybody saw value in monthly
catchups with the view of sharing information among like minded people.
(28:57):
I'm just so glad you guys exist.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
It's so important. We shouldn't have to exist. That's a
sad part about it. Actually, the only way to get
anything done, you.
Speaker 14 (29:05):
Know, average families like you know, if I can say
Anna and Janina myself who don't have these contacts. This
is why, you know, we spend years, you know, trying
to fold our.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Head against the grip ball and get someone to listen
to us. And it's just you know, a fluke that
I sort of got.
Speaker 14 (29:22):
Jerry's name, and then we you know, managed to come
together as this group to realize that there's.
Speaker 18 (29:27):
More people than just us, that it's happening to you,
but like not everyone has access to experts like yourself,
Gary and Jerry that we can talk to and say, well,
what do we do now and where do we go?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Well, that's happening here.
Speaker 15 (29:42):
Yeah, Matt, when Maddie we're missing, we had nobody and
we didn't have the luxury of podcasts.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
As they went around and trying to get me, your
attention was harm and especially.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
After Atkins was a quitter, say is referring to Michael Atkins,
Matt's alleged killer.
Speaker 19 (30:00):
We were lucky enough that we got put on to Gary,
who wasn't a Gary.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
We'd be still in the same situation you guys are in.
We'd be still planning their heads against the brick wall,
still out looking out in the National Park. We were
getting nowhere because we just kept having doors shut up
shut on that base every time we moved. So we've
got to thank Gary for that.
Speaker 17 (30:19):
And keep in mind so we did search that site
when that was faund We've been there in the a
searching and just cant it's not a walking track, no
one but you wealth.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
So we've actually been and gone in that spot.
Speaker 20 (30:30):
Believen as a copper, you're starting to what you can
do because you've got to go through the chain of command.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
And with that cold job that I did, you couldn't
get past your local inspector.
Speaker 20 (30:40):
So I got no doubt that if I'd have had
access to the police Commissioner in Stuart, I reckon he
would have kicked it off. But you can't get that
far because the chain of command and unger Ego Manius
many out ten between.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Ian Stewart was the Queensland Police Commissioner from twenty twelve
to twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
This is experience over the US to learn things, what works,
what done work.
Speaker 17 (31:00):
And you know we've had access to the Minister, members
of Parliament, one of the commissions at one point.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But this the knowledge the first is first involved.
Speaker 19 (31:11):
In the crime, doesn't understand what mordn we at the start,
and it's only after all the knockbacks and kicks.
Speaker 17 (31:16):
And the perseverance that you start to cultivate these things.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It's a set of long, long process. And the trouble
is that long process costs time and time of picks
the evidence. It becomes the war of attrition too, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Well?
Speaker 19 (31:33):
Back the thing they hope that they just keep after
knock back after knock back, up knockback, and I say, oh,
start it and go away.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I think one of.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
The things that's coming out of all in our.
Speaker 21 (31:42):
Cases here too is that you know, and I know
there's some very good police out there, and I'm not
going off on a rant about the police, but the
things that are happening, like in Gween's case with evidence disappearing.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Allison has just had a conversation.
Speaker 14 (31:56):
This week with you know, when's beyond say it the
time his ex wife she.
Speaker 21 (32:02):
Told the cold case detective things that should have been
brought to the inquest put on the file for whatever reason,
they just didn't put them in the fire, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
And I said, the same thing happening, and there's no
independent body over on you.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
We're like you said, I believe there's far more good
police than bad police out there. But the trouble is
it's like a chain. If then one bad policeman.
Speaker 17 (32:24):
In the chain, it breaks, all the good works are done.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Ruining in the individual.
Speaker 17 (32:32):
We got it out in our coroners, fine, and our
coroners said that Fay and.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I should receive police commendations.
Speaker 19 (32:38):
We're going back to which I wis it never happened.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Okay, that's not even coming plays.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
But since the podcast on their son Matty came out
last year, say and Mark finally did receive that commendation.
Speaker 14 (32:54):
I think Gary, both you and Jerry are a case
in point, aren't.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
You're both detectives who were above and.
Speaker 14 (33:00):
Beyond for the families, and look what happened pay you
actually did in return.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
So yeah, that went well. You talk about culture, they
continually tell witnesses not to talk to anyone. I don't
know where anywhere.
Speaker 20 (33:14):
It says in the q is that you can prevent
a whitch and talking to someone less you get a
caught order. But they continually tell them not to talk
to anyone, and it just, I say, it just restricts
your investigation. So then they just sit at the desk
and wait for someone to come in and put their
hands up. But I think when you've got someone like that,
you're talking about one bad cop in the chain. It
(33:35):
just destroys that that whole organization.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, I'm your scenario. It was half the su sign
on a homicide. Think of the dollars they'll say in
terms of their resources as well, they try to run
stations on the budget.
Speaker 16 (33:48):
I've never thought that homicide should be restrained by financial
the monetary concerns.
Speaker 14 (33:54):
Gary, we were tell why that Matt had cost the
moranda well over the budget.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, yeah, do you think we've got one?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
She said that.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
The budget they spit more on his case.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Jerry, did you have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 20 (34:10):
Well, I agree with Gary the equal pay and what
happens in is the fellow that is working and getting
complaints made against him and getting pressure put on him,
he ends up doing what the other fellow does and say, well, why.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Bother I can go to work, get a pain and
go home with no dramas. So that just festus.
Speaker 20 (34:27):
But with that one up there, and I've often said
when I worked down the coast as a trainee or
for the first five years, the number of jumpers that
we go to people that have jumped out of high
rises or fallen out of high rises, or pushed out
of high rises. The number of jobs you go to
and you've seen your partner would just say, yeah, another
jump up, take details and go back.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
And do the form.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
For Jerry is referring to the Brianna Robinson case, the
Gold Coast cheerleader who allegedly threw herself out of a
window in a high rise in Surface Paradise. Her aunt,
Janine Macney, is also part of Searchlight, but we can't
include what she has to say for legal reasons because
more than a decade later, a murder trial is imminent.
Speaker 20 (35:11):
No background checks, but no no financial history, no DV history,
nothing at all, no mental history.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
They would just write it all as jumper. Yeah, still happens.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Well, what happened is very twitchly Garreth. Everyone doesn't mind me,
just very sort of briefly going into this. Like the
fellow that.
Speaker 18 (35:27):
Found when said she was sitting upright in the car
like she was driving, but she had.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
A gun up between her legs. But yet the bullet
wound is in her left temple.
Speaker 14 (35:36):
Now the police photos to sink the show her lying
across the passenger seat lying across the gun. Now, the
young fellow who found her was nineteen at the time,
and he is adamant like to this day. Allison has
spoken to him a game recently and he was at
the ind question and they gave him about.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Three minutes and got rid of him a quick as
they could.
Speaker 18 (35:54):
He is adamant that she was sitting up right in
which case, like she was sitting up right with the
gun between the legs.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Padded about what we were getting to a left temple.
So it's almost, I think this is what Alison's saying.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
It's almost as if, well this ort us a bit
that way.
Speaker 14 (36:07):
She's sitting up with a gun between the exits and
the bullholes and the left temple.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
You know, that's the big mystery.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Anna's niece, Amy Wensley's case was also ruled a suicide.
In the first instance, she was the same.
Speaker 22 (36:19):
The gun was on her legs and the barrel was
pointing up and she shot on the right side.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
It's exactly the same suit.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
And Jerry, you were going to say about another pace similar.
Speaker 20 (36:29):
Just that one up north twenty years ago. They had
two inquests into it, the lady and Arnole. One a
copper when he retired. Then he came out and said
that at the scene that they the detectives that attended,
said yeah, no, we'll just to murder suicide and right
up because we can't afford the overtime to have the crime,
saying guard until tomorrow. And they wrote it off that
(36:51):
these two best friends basically one shot the other than
shot herself, but after that bashed each other with rocks
and choked each other and everything else. But the second
in quest versally said it was a husband and one
of the women that did it. But this Copper after
you retired, gave evidence of the in quest that that's
why it wasn't treated as a double murder, because of
(37:11):
the over time forguarding the scene overnight.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I remember that one.
Speaker 22 (37:14):
Jerry, did you have anything to do with it? I
mean like you didn't work on the case.
Speaker 14 (37:17):
Not like you know that was wasn't it in the Julia?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
What was the outcome of that? Does anyone know or
is it still unsolved?
Speaker 1 (37:27):
He's dead.
Speaker 20 (37:28):
I'd say the family hit the same hurdles as what
for you people have nothing happens because it's so long ago.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
And so I didn't know about Amy. The story with Amy,
but it sounds very similar to the one with Gwen.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Only is twenty four years old. She lived in Perth.
She was a young mum. She had two kids.
Speaker 22 (37:46):
A week before she died, she told a stepfather that
he'd held a knife to her throat. There's just there's
no domestic violence with the police. There's no record of it.
But that doesn't mean it didn't happen because a lot
of people women don't report her. She spoke to a
mother on the day that she was leaving, and her
mum rang her and her mum's my sister, and she
(38:07):
was very hysterical of an upset and my sister said,
pack your stuff, come to me. Amy said yeah. My
sister said, I'll come and get you. She said, no, Mom,
I'm leaving now. I'm on my way. Amy put her
kids in the car. She had two small children. She
put her children in the car.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
One of the.
Speaker 23 (38:20):
Daughters was turning four in two days time.
Speaker 22 (38:23):
She packed the present. She put a passport in the bag.
She put so much stuff in her car.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
She's leaving. Ten minutes after she spoke to a mum
or something.
Speaker 22 (38:31):
Like that, she's dead. She never made it. Scum that's
what I call him because I hate saying his name.
Scum and his mate were on the property. They're both shooters,
and they said Damia killed herself and she was found
sitting behind a door as a recess. Behind the door
if you could imagine almost like a rectangle, and if
you opened the door, she would have been boxed in
(38:52):
in this area. So she was sitting here. It's almost
like she's getting away from something. That's how I see it.
You know, she's in an anyway.
Speaker 23 (39:01):
She's shot on the right side of her head. She's
right handed.
Speaker 22 (39:05):
Her right hand was found under her, so she's sitting
on it and there's no gunshot residue, there's no blood
spatter on that hand. So police are trying to say
that she used a left hand to shoot herself on
the right side of the head with a double barrel
shotgun and probably used the floor to put the butt
of the.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Gun to do it.
Speaker 22 (39:25):
Right like, this has been going on for years twenty fourteen,
so that's over eight years now. They had a cold case,
became involved and they had this is after I went
to the Corruption Crime Commission and said five years after
Amy died, no one's fucking listening to me. It's it's
exactly what the levisons have said, and you know the
(39:46):
others that police just want to write it off. You know,
it doesn't matter what the family say, they just want
to write it off. So I'm asking police questions. The
detectors keeps giving me the most ridiculous fucking answers, like
you know, it's not CSI, and you know I googled shit.
It's like they just don't give you anything. So I
went to the Coruption and Crime Commission five years after
she died, and they listened and they suspected serious misconduct.
(40:09):
It was two detectives on the night. They weren't even
homicide detectives. They were detectives to drive around in a
car on shift, waiting to be called out to a
serious assault or an armed robbery.
Speaker 23 (40:20):
You know, they're not homicide. They weren't there anyway.
Speaker 22 (40:23):
Fifteen minutes in their room they came out they said
she did it. There was a very heated discussion, as
they called it. But the uniform cop, his name is
Larry lovely Man. Larry said, now it was an argument.
Had to argue with it about it because they wanted
to call it a suicide, and he's saying no, no, no, no,
this looks really suspicious. They didn't even speak to Scummery's mate.
Those detectives did not even go to speak to scummer.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Of its scum and his mate didn't even talk to him.
Didn't talk to anyone in my family. Nothing, didn't do anything,
just said she did it. But yeah, so Amy is dead.
Speaker 22 (40:52):
She shot herself after putting the kids in the car,
telling them, Mum, she's on her way. She's right hand
and shot on the right side hand under here his
double barrel shotgun.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
So let's do this, shall we?
Speaker 22 (41:04):
And at the inquest he even gave evidence scum because
Amy fractured two vertebrates a year before in a car accident,
because that oursole was driving and ran off the road,
so she had a halo drilled into a head. He
gave evidence at the inquest saying that right up until
the day she died, she still had trouble moving her neck,
(41:25):
that she would have to turn the top part of
her chest and shoulders to turn. And I thought, as
anyone else hearing this like this, arshole is actually saying this,
not even realizing what he's saying.
Speaker 23 (41:35):
So we've got Amy one hand under here a double
barrel shotgun like this.
Speaker 22 (41:40):
Remember, apparently she's having trouble turning a net, so how
is she going to But you know, I'm no detective,
I'm no expert. Let's leave it to them, shall we.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
The thing is looking at Sue's one when the prosecutor
was there, and he was just kept on saying, you know,
is it possible to sue? Didn't he Sue? He just
kept saying, as anything's possible, but it's really, really really unlikely.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
The cold case got.
Speaker 22 (42:07):
Bio mechanics expert, right, he's a professor at the WA University.
Speaker 23 (42:11):
They asked him to go out to the house with
the cold case. They had.
Speaker 22 (42:14):
They had the actual house and the room where Amy
died for a whole day to conduct a series of
scenarios testing, you know, reenactments, and they got a police
officer who was very similar stature to my niece. Now,
Amy was like if I said she'd come up to here,
she's only small and.
Speaker 23 (42:31):
She's very very slim. Amy's very slim.
Speaker 22 (42:33):
So they found an officer like her to do all
this stuff. Right, he's come back and said it is
highly unlikely that she's done it. And it's more likely,
like it's highly consistent with her being shot by another person.
The coroner at the time got that report and decided
to send it outside.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Of wa for a second opinion.
Speaker 22 (42:52):
Anyway, he sent it to a biomechanics human engineering expert
here in Sydney, and his report came back to say
he agreed with Professor Ackland that someone else has shot her.
Speaker 23 (43:04):
Why is that not enough for the coroner or anyone else?
Speaker 2 (43:07):
You know?
Speaker 22 (43:08):
And at the inquest, it was disgusting what the police did.
They absolutely pushed for a finding of suicide. They character
assassinated Amy and they fucking don't know her.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
They don't know Amy.
Speaker 22 (43:19):
I know her, but the way they talked about her
and the things that they said in that courtroom about her,
the police were disgusting. And I'm talking about those detectives
all the way up. We've got Professor Ackland, we've got
doctor Gibson, we've got Ron.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Iddles who's looked at the case as well.
Speaker 22 (43:36):
You know, how can you just totally put that aside
major crime apparently who was just as shit as those
two detectives and everyone else after them, including that detective superintendent.
Speaker 23 (43:48):
How can you listen to them and ignore the experts.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
They're just hoping I go away, but I won't, Alice,
look at all these faces on the streen. I mean,
all these people here, their love one can't speak for themselves.
Speaker 17 (44:02):
The court fin allege things in the court, and the
inquishing collegian say things they can't speak for themselves.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Thank God for these people. They're talking if their loved one.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
And that's the thing, isn't it. And this is when
I spoke to missing persons in the AFP, and they said,
the person that knows best is the next akin the
people that actually know them. And for whatever reason, people
like you are completely ignored in this process.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
It's the cost.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
You know.
Speaker 22 (44:31):
You guys are talking before Gary and Jerry about you,
sorry Els, and you asked them a question about the
policing and why they do things, and then the topic
came up about the cost.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
You know. Fay said that you were told that you know,
it's cost Miranda Police Station X.
Speaker 23 (44:47):
Amount of money. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 22 (44:49):
Maybe if you hadn't done in the job properly instead
of writing it off, it wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Have cost so much. How about that?
Speaker 22 (44:57):
Can I tell you my blood races when we start
talking about this shit. It's so freaking angry.
Speaker 14 (45:01):
But Anna, they tell us that is when we got
the boom box fat and they wanted to identify it
out of that's car.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
It took him an hour to undo the tape very carefully.
Was what didn't you just ripping?
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Oh no, this tape costs a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
We're going to reuse it.
Speaker 19 (45:21):
Tape this big boom box, it's about this beel.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
And gets in heavy brown paper.
Speaker 17 (45:28):
But take that quite well with with this evidence tape
and he can copy the healing a little bit.
Speaker 10 (45:35):
So what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Would cut off on this expensive tape. We're going to
reuse this. That's what you're up again.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
It's both inspiring and frustrating talking with these brave people
who have championed the memories of their loved ones, and
in some cases one justice for them as they put
their lives on hold. Listening to Anna talk about her
niece and the way she died so much in common
with Gwen, serves to reinforce Sue's belief that her sister,
(46:05):
too was a victim not of depression, but of foul play.
Here is an excerpt of the coroner's findings in relation
to Amy Wensley, dated ninth of September twenty twenty one.
Speaker 9 (46:19):
The initial attending police officers had concerns that another person
may have been involved in Miss Wensley's death, so they
requested the attendance of detectives. The attending detectives spoke to
the uniformed police and viewed Miss Wensley in situ in
the bedroom. After a short period, the detectives formed the
view that the evidence supported the conclusion that Miss Wensley
(46:39):
had committed suicide. They informed the uniform police, who disagreed
with this conclusion, but followed instructions to release the protected
forensic area that had been declared and allowed Miss Wensley's
body to be taken to the mortuary. The next morning,
Mister Simonds's father, who was the owner of the house,
arranged for the bedroom to be forensically cleaned using a
(47:00):
cleaner who had been suggested by the police the night before.
That afternoon, after Miss Wensley's mother raised concerns about her
daughter's death and some further evidence was considered, the initial
decision of the detectives that there was no evidence of
criminality was reviewed and a new investigation was commenced into
the death by different detectives. The second investigation was hampered
(47:21):
by the fact that the scene had been contaminated, but
ultimately the investigators reached the same conclusion that there was
no evidence of the involvement of another person in Miss
Wensley's death. The matter was then given to coronial investigators
before being provided to the coroner as noted above. Following
further coronial investigation, a third investigation was conducted by police
(47:42):
into the possibility that another person was involved in Miss
Wensley's death. That investigation left open the possibility that her
death occurred by suicide or homicide or accident. After hearing
from all potential witnesses, the Deputy State Coroner concluded that
there was not enough evidence to make a formal finding
as to how Miss Wensley died. Accordingly, her honor made
(48:04):
an open finding as to the manner of death. Some
adverse comments were made about the standard of the initial
police investigation and the limitations displaced on the coroner's ability
to consider all relevant evidence.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Later, I caught up again with Gary Jubilin, who said
this of the group, the.
Speaker 16 (48:25):
Idea of the group is not to interfere with an investigation.
It's just if someone's hit a brick wall on a
inquiry relating to their relative or loved one, that what
options have they got now that might simply be Look,
the advice I might give is just pick the phone
up and speak to the investigating officer or send an email.
(48:47):
Little simple things like that, Practical things like that that
will help them navigate their work way through what can
be a very frustrating time. Because one thing I learned
as a police officer is a frustration that families felt
if they didn't believe a matter has been investigated properly. Now,
quite often that's just through lack of communication. Sometimes those
(49:09):
matters have been investigated properly, but that hasn't been communicated
to the families. On other occasions, there's been mistakes made
or investigative opportunities have been missed, and the families are
quite rightly concerned that the matter's not been investigated properly.
So basically, it's a group of people who have shared experiences,
(49:31):
criminal investigation background, some legal backgrounds, and victims' families that
collectively just trying to help them navigate their way through
obviously very difficult times. That was a mantra that was
drummed into me as a young homicide detective, and it's
something that I tried to pass on that when you're
(49:53):
called to a matter, treated as suspicious until you can
determine otherwise, and now that is just it's homicide. Look
at it until you gather the evidence up so you
can say, don't make assumptions. The biggest mistakes that can
be made in investigations is when assumptions are made. And
I've seen that in my career time and time again.
(50:13):
And make sure it's properly investigated right from the start
that crucial period and everyone heard the saying that that
first forty eight hours a crucial time. It is more effective,
it's more efficient for the organization, whatever jurisdiction that might
be the investigating please, but it also gives a family comfort.
And I think the families and this is sometimes it's
(50:36):
such a terrible thing to lose a loved one, and
sometimes it's difficult to accept what's happened. But it's made
easier if they've satisfied that the investigation that was done
into the death of their loved one was done thoroughly
and professionally.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
So true, which brings me to documents we obtained about
When's cremation in nineteen eighty three. One part particularly struck alarm.
Speaker 6 (51:03):
Bells Cremation Permit. I John C Ramsay, Officer licensed under
the Cremation Act, do hereby permit the cremation of the
body of one Kevin Alexander Osborne this eighteenth day of
October nineteen eighty three at the Licensed Crematorium of North
Queensland Crematorium Limited, situated at Bruce Highway, Townsville.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Who is Kevin Osborne and whose ashes were given to
Gwen's family. The ashes were sent by mail to a
funeral home in Narrabrai in New South Wales. The speed
and haste with which Wehen was treated in the days
after her death raised the possibility that even her ashes
(51:49):
were mixed up something else the family has to contend with.
Speaker 20 (51:56):
Well.
Speaker 11 (51:56):
It was a terrible shock to Assault Allison, because when
we got the actual documentation I saw that it doesn't
even have Gwen's name on It actually has a man's
name on it, someone that we've never heard of and
that we have no association with. So now that's left
us with not knowing whether we even got Gwen's ashes
(52:18):
or whether we receive somebody else's ashes. One of the
things that I thought was that for our own peace
of mind and for the family to know that it
is actually Gwen that we've got buried in the same
plot as our nana and our little brother, was to
have her ashes tested for DNA. But I've researched as
much as I can about it, and that doesn't appear
(52:40):
to be anywhere in Australia that we can get that done.
I believe there is somewhere that can be done that
can do it in the US, but it's a very
involved process. So we've left Gwen buried with our nana
and little Christopher and we just hope that it is
actually her ashes that are buried there.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
We checked online records and founded Kevin Alexander Osborne, who
passed away in cans at the age of fifty one
on October sixteenth, nineteen eighty two, that is one year
and one day before Gwen was cremated at the same facility,
suggesting that the inclusion of his name in Gwen's documentation
may have been due to a typographical error, changing nineteen
(53:25):
eighty two to nineteen eighty three. Resulting in his record
ending up in the file for the same day as Gwen's,
rather than a physical mixup with Gwen's ashes, at least
we hope.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
So.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
So we come to the crucial question what actually happened
to Gwen Grover. Her sister, Sue has a very firm idea,
which she has shared with police and the coroner.
Speaker 11 (53:52):
I'm one hundred percent convinced Gwen didn't commit suicide and
that there was someone else involved. I believe Ken's over
kill Gwen.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Giving evidence under oath, Sue told the inquest that she
believed Ken Sober may have been involved in Gwen's death,
an opinion dismissed by coroner Nereta Wilson in her findings.
Speaker 11 (54:15):
I believe the reason he killed her is because she
left him. Now, Ken Soper had had one marriage that
had broken down already, which is not unusual in today's society.
If people get married three and four times and nobody
that's an eye live. But back in nineteen eighty three,
it was a very different circumstance. His first wife left
(54:36):
him when she had two little children.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Just to clarify here, Sue is actually talking about Ken's
second wife Pamela. At this stage, we haven't been able
to speak to Ken's first wife.
Speaker 11 (54:47):
For women to leave their husband's back in that era
with small children, there had to be something pretty drastic
going on because they knew once they left they were
on their own.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
So it had this broken marriage.
Speaker 11 (54:57):
A short time after that, he took up with Gwen
and then, by all accounts, you know, he showered her
with gifts.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
He virtually smothered her from day one.
Speaker 11 (55:07):
He pushed her to.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Marry him.
Speaker 11 (55:11):
They became engaged fairly quickly. He bought her a house,
he bought her jewelry. It's your classic scenario of, you know,
a controlling relationship. And then when she left him, and
this is just I'm talking from a woman's perspective.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
Now I've met can Sober.
Speaker 12 (55:27):
I saw what his ego was like.
Speaker 11 (55:29):
I believe the fact that Gwen would rather leave him,
go and live in a in the much mentioned dirty
little flat with no money, battling on her own with
the boys, and be with him, I think was just
all too.
Speaker 6 (55:43):
Much for him.
Speaker 11 (55:44):
The general consensus, or the popular view, seems to be
it was a point to to rifle, whether it was
a semi automatic or bolt action.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
No one can agree. But somehow or other, Gwen, not.
Speaker 11 (55:55):
Knowing how to use guns, hating guns, being frightened of
them as I am, I needed to sit in the
driver's seat of the car.
Speaker 3 (56:02):
She was right handed.
Speaker 11 (56:04):
She managed to load this weapon.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
So then refers to the version of Ken's story that
Gwen came into his bedroom and stole the gun in
the middle of the night, and then there's this one.
Speaker 3 (56:15):
Then another version of his stories.
Speaker 11 (56:17):
He told my brother at the funeral that it was
in the boot of her car because he borrowed her
car to go hunting. The latest version of his story
at the inquest was that it was in the shed
down the back. He borrowed it off Glenn Graham. He
put it in the shed down the back. Gwen managed
to get that rifle. Not knowing anything about gun, she
managed to find the right bullets that go with that rifle.
(56:41):
And if you look in the crime scene photos, once
again there's a box of bullets sitting on the seat.
I don't know why she took a whole box of bullets,
like normally you would take a few, I would imagine,
but she took the right box of bullets for the gun.
Speaker 3 (56:55):
She sat in the car.
Speaker 11 (56:57):
She may not have been drinking, or she may have
been point one five eight, depending which one of the
reports she liked to read on which to have the week.
But let's say she was point one five eight percent.
She was disoriented, She could barely walk, she could barely talk,
she couldn't think straight. Her motor skills and coordination were
(57:17):
completely affected. Somehow or other, she sat there, she loaded
the gun. Being a right handed person, she manipulated the
gun somehow within this very small confines of a small
Ford Chrysler. Somehow or other, Gwen never used a gun
in her life, didn't know how to load it, managed
to get the right bullets, managed to sit in the
(57:38):
car point one five eight, managed to sit there and
in one shot get it exactly in the right spot
in the temple that killed her instantly. And then and then,
by some miraculous act of physics, the gun did a
complete almost one eighty flipped over the other way in
(58:01):
the confines.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
Of the car, and she ended up lying across it.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
So we have detailed in earlier episodes how rare female
suicide with a gun is a fact dismissed by Detective
Senior Constable ed Kinbacker at the inquest and by the
(58:25):
coroner in her findings. But we also need to emphasize
that in the case of homicides involving women, the murderer
is more often than not their partner. A nineteen ninety
seven study in Australia found that more than one third
of firearm killings were committed by an intimate partner through
(58:50):
port states quote that victims who are married in a
de facto relationship, separated, or divorced are more likely to
be killed by firearms than other victims end quote. In Australia,
on average, a woman is killed every week by her partner,
according to violence against women prevention group our Watch. But
(59:14):
simply it would be unsurprising, even more likely, statistically speaking,
that Gwen was killed by a partner overtaking her own life.
Considered the evidence about the incident that led to Gwen
leaving Ken Soper, Kenned asked Gwen to marry him. They
(59:34):
were planning on having a baby, yet when interviewed by police,
he claimed he could not remember why Gwen had left
him so suddenly.
Speaker 24 (59:44):
The argument occurred after we'd been out Gwen, the boys,
David and myself, when we got home, Gwen went to
open the front door, and as she opened the door,
David tried to push through and I stopped him and
told him that he should wait for his mother to
win to first whilst our recall stopping David, but I'm
not sure exactly what I did, but you know, that's
(01:00:04):
what started the argument. It appeared to me that David
was Gwen's favorite child, and I guess she took it
more seriously, which I think is why she decided to
move out.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
I'm not exactly sure what I did, That's what Ken
told the police, but whatever it was, it was enough
to send Gwen fleeing with her boys.
Speaker 25 (01:00:31):
My deepest sympathies go to the family and friends of
Gwen Grover who have been so devastatingly impacted by her
tragic death.
Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
This is a statement we received from the Queensland Police
Minister Mark Ryan following our examination of the conduct of
the police Cold Case team in their investigation into the
death of Gwen Grover.
Speaker 25 (01:00:52):
Like all Queenslanders, I expect the highest standards of professional
and ethical conduct from every member of the Queensland Police Service.
If anyone has a complaint or evidence of inappropriate conduct,
they should take their concerns to the relevant authority. Similarly,
if anyone contacts my office with concerns of this nature,
I will ensure those concerns are passed on to the
(01:01:15):
relevant authority for assessment. In respect of this matter, I
have referred the concerns raised to the Crime and Corruption
Commission for assessment.
Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
We'll let you know what the Crime and Corruption Commission
has to say about the way Gwen's case was handled.
Next episode, Australia's Hidden Homicides.
Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
This is a national disgrace. To be perfectly frank with.
Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
You and renowned and respected good cop ron Iddles gives
his two Bobsworth.
Speaker 7 (01:01:52):
Looks like her hand has been placed on the barrel
to shoot herself.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
She would have had to hold the barrel to him.
Left for poetry.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
Shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot au
(01:02:29):
or leave us an anonymous tip at shot Inthdark dot
com dot au. If this podcast has raised issues for you,
please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen, or visit them
at www dot lifeline, dot org dot au. This podcast
(01:02:51):
is brought to you by me presenter and journalist Alison Sandy.
If you like what you're hearing, please and review our podcast.
It helps other listeners find us special thanks to my writer,
producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's sister and tireless campaigner for Justice
(01:03:13):
Sue Cole, sound designer Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before
our theme music is by Bob Kronk the First and
there is a link to his music on Spotify in
the show notes.
Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
When Away, So Swirll
Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
The Pains and Shot in the Dark is a seven
News production.
This podcast contains information and details relating to an alleged suicide.
We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline
on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot
lifeline dot org dot au. Also, listeners are advised this
(00:21):
episode contains some language some may find offensive.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Why can't we find out what happened? Why won't anyone
help us?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
It was not suicide? There was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Shot in the Dark eight.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
The families of two women shot dead near Cairns more
than twenty years ago sobbed and cheered as a coroner
ordered one of the victim's husbands to stand trial over
their deaths. Two previous inquests had ruled it was murder suicide.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Julianne Leigh and Vicky Arnold were found dead in a
car at Atherton in North Queensland in nineteen ninety one.
The police who attended this awful scene were not the
same officers who investigated Gwen's death, but they did exactly
the same thing, immediately concluding it was a suicide by
(01:39):
one of the women, who had obviously killed her friend
first before taking her own life. How wrong they were.
After more than twenty years and three coronial inquests, a breakthrough,
as reported in the News in March twenty thirteen.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
Two best friends together during their terrifying and tragic deaths.
Vicky Arnold has always been blamed for killing Julianne Lay,
then turning the gun on herself in a four wheel
drive on a lonely bush track in nineteen ninety one.
Almost twenty two years and three inquests later, a decision
that prompted reactions like this, Alan Lay, Julianne's husband, ordered
(02:24):
to stand trial.
Speaker 6 (02:26):
My hearts racing Tommy's turning.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
It's an unbelievable result.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
It'spent such a long time.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Soverly wraps Vicky's name finally cleared. Her elderly mother there
to hear the result.
Speaker 7 (02:38):
I'm happy. I'm happy.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
That's all Allan Lay told police. The women had gone
fishing late at night on the Atherden Taberlands. Their bodies
were found a fortnight later. Julianne was strangled and had
two gunshot wounds to her head. Vicki shot three times.
The weapon was in her hand, her index finger near
the trigger. Coroner Michael Barnes said, erased the suspicions the
(03:02):
scene had been manipulated or staged. He was critical of
the police investigation. They failed to gather lost and corrupted evidence.
Speaker 8 (03:11):
There was no investigation. They completely destroyed all the physical evidence.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
Psychiatrists ruled Vicki wasn't suicidal.
Speaker 8 (03:20):
They trusted each other, so for her to do that,
that one's going to happened. Stay.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Coroner Michael Barnes said there are a number of aspects
to suggest Alan Lay had a motive to kill his wife.
The couple was under financial stress. Julianne had a life
insurance policy he stood to gain one hundred and twenty
thousand dollars from her death. He was also in a
sexual relationship with Julianne's sixteen year old sister. Two decades
(03:47):
of heartache for the victims' families ended with tears and
a warrant issued for Alan Lay's arrest.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, you can wake up tomorrow morning have a smile
on the.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Place, Cully Waters seven News.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
The first two inquests found Vicky Arnold had hit her
friend with a rock, slit her throat, and shot her
with a rifle, before turning the gun on herself and
firing shots through her chin and behind her right ear.
Speaker 9 (04:16):
A coroner's decision committing Allan Lay to stand trial over
the deaths of his wife and her best friend has
been overturned by a Supreme Court judge in.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Cans Before he could be tried in court for the
double murders, Lay had his charges dropped in twenty fifteen
when another suspect emerged. A former standover man and rapist
named Chris Dunlee had boasted to a prison cell mate
that he had killed the women. Dunlee was shot dead
(04:46):
in nineteen ninety four. The murders of Julianne and Vicki
remained unsolved. They will likely stay that way because police
did not establish and preserve a crime scene after they
leaped to the conclusion that it was a murder suicide,
meaning there is little forensic evidence retained to piece together
(05:07):
what really happened. This was a decade after Gwen's death,
revealing how little had changed in ten years. Even more
recently was the murder of Bruce Schuler.
Speaker 10 (05:22):
Bruce was goal prospecting in Palmeval up North, and he
was with three other people. Two people apparently came along
and Bruce was never found again.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Just to clarify here, Bruce had been goal prospecting at
Palmerville Station with three of his friends. He was killed
by the station's owner, Steve Struber and his wife Diane.
They were found guilty of murder and interfering with a
corpse at Canned Supreme Court in July twenty fifteen.
Speaker 10 (05:56):
The husband and wife have been sentenced to life in jail.
Life is fifteen years. That's why I sort of push
the nobody no parole. We still don't know where Bruce is,
but we still keep looking.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
His partner, Fiona Split is a remarkable woman who has
become friends with Sue after sharing a similar experience of
tragic loss. She also endured various issues trying to fight
the system with the same authorities and cans, but despite
not getting everything she'd hoped for, she was able to
affect meaningful change after successfully campaigning for the introduction of
(06:36):
new laws in Queensland requiring killers to reveal the location
of their victim's body or never be granted parole.
Speaker 10 (06:46):
Yeah, twenty eighteen, we got it in here and we
did try to do nationally, but I know you've got
to jump more hurdles to do it nationally, So I'm
glad someone's pushed it in New South Wales now and
hopefully nobody no parole will convince them and others to
tell us where Bruce's or where other loved.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Ones are by them. Fiona means Bruce's killers. I asked
Fiona if she'd been able to get over Bruce's death.
Speaker 10 (07:15):
No, I can't get over it because I haven't found him,
for one but I don't think anyone ever gets over it.
We did get a conviction with the minimum DNA and
evidence that they had, we did get a conviction. My
probably hardest thing was horrioral inquest, which I hoped we
(07:35):
would be able to get so that we could put
these people back on the stand and hopefully that they
would tell us where Bruce was. And that's my main
aim for everything is to tell me where Bruce is
so we can bring him home and laying to rest.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
That didn't happen.
Speaker 10 (07:51):
No, the reason they said was that they had done
everything they could and they got a conviction. So basically
it's done and dusted. There's no compassion. There's been different cases,
because I seem to follow a lot of cases that
have been similar, and depending on who you are and
(08:13):
who you're connected with, you seem to be able to
get what you want. But when you're just the little
person out there, no.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
There's a bit you've got to do a big fight.
Speaker 10 (08:23):
Like Sue and I and a few other people are
trying to make other people aware so someone else doesn't
have to go through the same things we've been through.
We'll be able to tell them what to do, where
to go, and things like that, so hopefully there won't
be other people like us. Like, there's lots of people
(08:44):
out there like us.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It's a too hard basket.
Speaker 10 (08:48):
It's a government organization where it just gets pummed off,
palmed off, palmed off.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Is it harder and a smaller community.
Speaker 10 (08:56):
Yes, I think that's probably correct, because you've only we've
got so many people to go to.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, and they know each other.
Speaker 10 (09:05):
Yeah, Oh, they all know each other. They're all interconnected
one way or the other.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Remember the coroner in early nineteen eighty four decided there
was no need for an inquest into Gwen's death as
he accepted the police theory without question. Sue Cole was
confident that a long fought for coronial inquest would establish
terms of reference to fully explore the possibility of someone
(09:35):
else being involved in Gwen's death. Instead, the two day
in quests skipped over any suggestions of the involvement of
other parties and the lack of desire by the police
to pursue them.
Speaker 11 (09:51):
It's so important for anyone that's going through what we're
going through to know that we're not alone, because when
you're doing it on your own, it's it's so difficult.
Speaker 12 (10:00):
It is so difficult. It's a very long, lonely battle.
Speaker 11 (10:04):
And if you've got someone like Fiona that at times
you know I can just message her and say this
has happened, what do you think? Or this is if
I'm having a really down day, we can message each
other and say how nothing's happening. We're trying everything we
can think of. No one's responding to us. Just to
have that support network, I believe for anyone that's going
through anything like this is imperative.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
The Lady Vanishers listeners will notice how different this was
to the inquest into the disappearance of Marion Barter, where
all possibilities were explored and much harsher criticism was made
of police in relation to their handling of the initial investigation.
I contacted the Currenters Court in Queensland to try to
(10:48):
ascertain why the terms of reference were so limited. Just
two days before Christmas, I received an email from Tim
Goodwin at the Queen's Department of Justice.
Speaker 7 (11:02):
Hi Allison, please see the response below from the Coroner's
Court and background relevant to your questions. Have a good Christmas,
Regards Tim. On eight December twenty nineteen, the Attorney General
directed the State Coroner to conduct inquiries and hold an
inquest into the death of Gwen Lorraine Grover in Cannes, Queensland,
on fourteen October nineteen eighty three. The Attorney General's direction
(11:26):
did not direct how the inquest was to be conducted.
The Coroner sets the scope of the inquest. Miss Cole
was represented at the inquest by lawyers, who were entitled
to make submissions on the scope of the inquest and
the witnesses and the evidence to be called. The inquest
scope was not limited to the adequacy of the police investigation,
(11:46):
as noted in the previous response. The inquest issues set
out at paragraph six of the findings dated nine November
twenty twenty one were one the findings required by s
forty five of the Coroner's Act two thousand and three
and two U the adequacy of the original investigation by
Queensland Police Service. Section forty five includes investigation of how
(12:07):
the person died, which is accepted as including by what
means and in what circumstances the death occurred. The inquest
explored Miss Cole's assertion that her sister was murdered. See
for example, paragraphs one oh six, one fifty five and
one point eighty of the inquest Findings copied below.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Explored is an interesting word to use here. The possibility
that Gwen was murdered was explored at the inquest, but
only very briefly and only to dismiss the idea.
Speaker 7 (12:39):
Please note, although the direction was given under the Coroners
Act nineteen fifty eight, the inquest proceeded under the Coroners
Act two thousand and three after the operation of the
nineteen fifty eight Act was effectively repealed by the Justice
and Other Legislation Amendment Act twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
The statement ends with a random selection of paragraphs from
the coroner findings.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
Extracts from the Coronial Findings Inquest into the Death of
Gwen Lorraine Grover Parah one oh six of the finding's notes.
Miss Cole does not believe the gunshot wound sustained was
self inflicted. Miss Cole says that in her heart, Gwen
did not take her own life, and that she thinks
someone else shot her and that may have been mister Soper.
(13:21):
Paragraph one fifty five of the findings notes, Counsel for
missus Grover submitted that overall the investigation and evidence was
insufficient to exclude a suspicious death and contended that, amongst
other matters, including that missus Grover's arm span could not
be established and therefore the possibility she could not reach
the trigger, and because she hated guns, and that relevant
(13:44):
factual matters did not line up, that I should remain
open to the possibility of contribution to her death by
a third party Para one eighty of the finding's notes.
Any suggestion that Ken Soper was somehow directly involved in
Gwen's death is debunked by the fact that Ken Soper
had no idea of Gwen's whereabouts from the time she
(14:04):
departed his Sturt Street home at six pm on twelve
October nineteen eighty three, or that she had set up
flat at one hundred and seventy seven Lake Street. Ken
Soper has not been considered a suspect. Any suggestion that
he staged or was somehow involved in Gwen's death was
not seriously pursued at inquest. No alternate theory was pursued
(14:25):
at inquest. I find no other person contributed to or
caused Gwen's death. Coroner's Act two thousand and three. A
coroner who was investigating a death or suspected death must,
if possible, find a who the deceased person is, and
b how the person died, and c when the person died,
(14:46):
and d where the person died, and in particular whether
the person died in Queensland, and E what caused the
person to die.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
After reinforcing the currenter's position that Ken Soper could not
have been involved in Gwen's death, we are reminded.
Speaker 7 (15:03):
That Section forty five point five provides that the coroner
must not include in the findings any statement that a
person is or maybe a guilty of an offense, or
be civilly liable for something.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
So, according to the state, Sue has no basis to complain.
Soaper said he didn't know where Gwen was or what
she was doing prior to a death, so he obviously
can't have had anything to do with it. Unsatisfied and
as determined as.
Speaker 12 (15:33):
Ever, dear mister Ryan, Sue.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Cole went back into battle for her sister.
Speaker 12 (15:38):
I am writing on behalf of my family to respectfully
request a reopening or new inquest into my sister Gwen
Grover's death.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Immediately after Coroner Narrator Wilson ruled Gwen's death a suicide,
Sue wrote to the Queensland State Coroner Terry Ryan in
November twenty twenty one, asking him to set aside that
finding and to hold a new inquest considering all the evidence,
including new information and other details which were not mentioned
(16:09):
at the first in quest.
Speaker 12 (16:11):
In support of our request as set out in section fifty,
I believe we meet these criteria for the following reasons.
One the evidence of mister Craig Locke. Please see Coroner
Wilson's inquest findings, page seven, paragraphs twenty twenty one and
twenty two. As stated in these findings, mister Locke saw
(16:35):
missus Grover was sitting upright like a wood if driving
with a rifle between her legs. Please see photos from
the scene attached, which clearly depicts Gwen in a completely
different position in the vehicle. Two numerous new inconsistencies that
emerged in the verbal statements of mister Soper, mister Grover,
(16:58):
Beck Grover, and sh Aaron Macadee during the inquest. These
include Duncan Grove giving evidence that Gwen had two black
eyes raccoon eyes when he identified her at the Morgue,
and Can Soper changing his alibi yet again. I have
obtained copies of the Queensland Policeman's Manual pertaining to nineteen
(17:22):
eighty three. I will refer to relevant pages below. There
are many instructions set out within this that have not
been met with the scant police report that was taken
at the time of Gwen's death. All we Gwen's family
have ever wanted is justice for our beloved sister, and
(17:43):
the inquest that was held in Cannes has left us
with more questions than answers. I hope you will consider
our request and I look forward to your reply. Thank
you for taking the time to read my correspondence, Yours, sincerely,
Sue Cole.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
After not hearing anything for six months, Sue sent another
request in April of twenty twenty two. Finally she received
a response from Terry Ryan, Dear.
Speaker 13 (18:13):
Missus Cole, application to reopen inquest and set aside findings
for Gwen Lorraine Grover are a Thurdier correspondence of twenty
third November twenty twenty one, expressing concern about the inquest
findings in relation to the tragic death of your sister,
Gwen Lorraine Grover. I've now had the opportunity to consider
the issues you've raised. You've identified a number of concerns
(18:36):
about the findings following the inquest into Miss Grover's death. Specifically,
you have raised concerns about the following matters new inconsistencies
which arose during the inquest. In relation to the way
Miss Grover was seated when found on the specific make
and model of the firearm, the original investigating police did
not comply with multiple specific general instructions. A newspaper article
(19:01):
describing Miss Grove as being found surrounded by beer bottles
and smoked cigarettes was deeply offensive to your family. Miss
Grover was noticed during post mortem identification to have raccoon eyes,
which you believed to be inconsistent with Miss Grover dying
from a gunshot wound to the temple. Miss Grover's cremation
documents include reference to a male deceased by the name
(19:25):
of Kevin Osborne, procedural complaints in relation to the conduct
of the inquest, delays, and behavior of various people which
perceived to be aggressive, bulling, or threatening. The re enactment
the scene did not consider the position of the test
subject's feet or the likelihood of Miss Grover ending up
slump to the left. Mister Locke recalled finding Miss Grover
(19:47):
as being seated bolt upright with a rifle between her legs,
which differs from the scene photographs of Miss Grover's body.
Important witnesses were not compelled to give evidence, including Grover
and Glengres. I am numerous inconsistencies arose during mister Sober's evidence,
including changed alibis, changing of dates relating to when Miss
(20:08):
Grover moved out, and who took his statement at the
police station. Whether a male or female officer. Miss Grover
would not have taken her own life, especially not by
way of firearm. I'm unable to consider concerns about procedural matters,
such as the conduct of persons at the inquest or
the failure to compel certain witnesses to give evidence. I've
(20:28):
considered all of your concerns and mature you have provided,
together with the coronial findings, transcripts of the inquest and
the Coronial brief of evidence. After considering the material, I've
decided not to reopen the inquest and set aside the findings.
I appreciate that you do not agree with the conclusion
that Miss Grover's death was the result of suicide. However,
(20:51):
home of the view that Coroner Wilson has made detailed
findings into all matters required by the Coroner's Act of
two thousand and three. Do not consider that the issues
you've raised include any new evidence that cast doubt on
the findings made by Corona Wilson, nor do I consider
that the finding was not correctly recorded Terry Ryan, State Coroner.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
We asked Professor David Ranson, Deputy Director of the Victorian
Institute of Forensic Medicine, for his take on the coroner's response.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
From your perspective, what do you think moving forward?
Speaker 14 (21:26):
You know would be classified as as a reason to make.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Mister Ryan set up and say.
Speaker 8 (21:32):
Well, he's putting himself on paper now as saying he
doesn't believe his new evidence and he's set that out.
I mean, the only issue is if there's a matter
of Look, and I'm not an experts, you did get
legal advice probably on this one, but you know there
are peal processes through to the higher courts in relation
(21:52):
to his decision, but they are often quite narrow on
what those basis of appeals can be. And you'd have
the specific queens and legislation to see what are the avenues,
and you did a bit of legal advice for that.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I think about that.
Speaker 8 (22:08):
You just got back to the attorney again and say
we disagree with the process because of this, this and this,
and we believe that you know, this is a miscarriage.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Justice and system.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Professor Ranson offered some advice, but clarified it was saying
the legal process in Queensland is not his expertise, so
at his request we've removed that. Yeah, no, fair enough,
because that's that's really the quandary here is that you know,
she said she made it specific that Ken Sober was
never a suspect. And I'm not saying that, you know,
as I said that he killed her, or that she
(22:39):
could even draw that conclusion. I'm just saying that, surely
that's enough reasonable doubt to say it was definitely.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
That is an open verdict.
Speaker 8 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, well you know that's what the Corona thought.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, I know, but I guess that's that's.
Speaker 14 (22:56):
Is that the woman that can sober game is his
alibi has not been able to be located on birthdest
and marriages or anywhere else.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
But that was just question at all. It was like
and to me, this sort of fixing with her.
Speaker 8 (23:09):
Yeah, I mean, this is where I have to say,
not the stand of the podcast. I mean I was
I'm very basically saying that in making any further appeal
processes like that, you need some legal advice to able
to articulate the elements of evidence that align with the
legislation on the appeal process.
Speaker 15 (23:31):
I get that, and look and look the Attorney General
can still make their own decision. Yet again absolutely yeah, yeah,
it was just the fact that, like there's so many
things like even the fact that she was cremated almost
immediately and no one, no one, not even like the
husband or the boyfriend were interviewed until days later.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
It was just like what the.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Anyway?
Speaker 8 (23:54):
So yeah, post hock issues are interesting because they go
to sort of those broader emotional contexts of what might
have happened, but they're not primary evidence. Their interesting post
hoc circumstantial evidence, and their way depends on the social
context in which they occurred.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Professor Ranson reiterated the main floor with this investigation was
officers not interviewing the person who found Gwen's body straight away.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
She wasn't lying on the side, she was sitting up.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
At the car when's death should not have been considered
a suicide prior to that happening. As we've discussed, the
first time police spoke to Craiglock was thirty eight years later.
Speaker 8 (24:39):
When you're going to review a case neary forty years later,
the absence of that original interview of the first person
who found the body is a significant lack. It's a
very important distinction to draw right at the beginning of investigation.
Do we categorize this as homicide to be categorized at
the suicide keep a completely open mind, and there was
(25:03):
I'm sure in older times a more of what I
call a gut feel approach to investigation, whereas today it's
a much more regimented, formulaic approach to investigation, which tends
to reduce initial bias sort of process wasn't as rigid
or well constructed or even thought about in old and
(25:26):
investigation times.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah. Yeah, even as the handbook said that they had
to treat everything as suspicious until they.
Speaker 8 (25:34):
Sure was easy to say, difficult to make sure that
cognitive bias issues don't actually impende on an investigation. We're
very conscious of these things down we put particular processes
in place.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
To try and prevent that happening.
Speaker 8 (25:50):
And whilst you know, the old manuals would have said
don't do this, or do this or whatever, that doesn't
mean to say they were necessarily followed.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Thanks for coming in and joining us. I've had a
great thing, so I'm really excited.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
To discuss Gwen's case. I enlisted a very special group
of people on a video chat with first hand experience
of losing a loved one and all the subsequent dealings
with police and the courts. The group is called Searchlight.
When's sister Sue Cole, of course, I have I love
(26:25):
Mark and Bay Hello, they are beautiful people. Joined by
Mark and Fay Levison, whose son Matt died in two
thousand and seven. His body was missing until his older
boyfriend signed an immunity deal with police. And led them
to his Graves's.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Just how lovely Anna here, Anna Davis.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Hi, Anda, lovely to meet you.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I like your jumpers.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah, hello, I'm so relieved. I'm thinking, gosh, I hope
it's not a dress up meeting Anna Davy, whose niece
Amy Wensley, was found dead outside her Perth home in
twenty fourteen, killed by a shotgun wound police say was
self inflicted. Yeah, Hi, Jerry, good to meet you. Virtually,
(27:15):
I'm good. Thank you. Jerry Thornton, the former Queensland police
detective who solved the murder of a woman originally thought
to have died by accident.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Noticed Alison.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Alison Sandy's joining us today. I think you might have
met Gary somewhere before.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Probably we see everyone knows Gary. Hi, Gary, how are you?
And Gary Jubilan a former New South Wales police detective
who worked on some of the biggest cases in the
state and now hosts the podcast I Catch Killers.
Speaker 16 (27:48):
If the teachers didn't come out, that case wouldn't have
been for the court.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
So the media has its place to put ads along.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Absolutely, it's the only way that the right thing happens.
You know, you know when they say not to talk
to the media. That's about flag.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, and that's very rare situation. You can tell someone. Look,
we just don't want you saying this, alixand and Gary.
Speaker 17 (28:11):
The problem is see when we the first far this
back in two thousand and seven, we were you know,
we were trust the police going up the police did
Barty figure they know what's to get the expert.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Then I was going on and don't talk the press.
That can hit the brief. Okay, we didn't win, you
know better. Yeah, a fucking chatter that now, Yeah, you
got to push it.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Searchlight is a group of families of victims, retire police
and victim advocates from various places all over Australia who
meet once a month online. Sue is the founder and
came into contact with each of them through her campaign
for Justice for Gwen and everybody saw value in monthly
catchups with the view of sharing information among like minded people.
(28:57):
I'm just so glad you guys exist.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
It's so important. We shouldn't have to exist. That's a
sad part about it. Actually, the only way to get
anything done, you.
Speaker 14 (29:05):
Know, average families like you know, if I can say
Anna and Janina myself who don't have these contacts. This
is why, you know, we spend years, you know, trying
to fold our.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Head against the grip ball and get someone to listen
to us. And it's just you know, a fluke that
I sort of got.
Speaker 14 (29:22):
Jerry's name, and then we you know, managed to come
together as this group to realize that there's.
Speaker 18 (29:27):
More people than just us, that it's happening to you,
but like not everyone has access to experts like yourself,
Gary and Jerry that we can talk to and say, well,
what do we do now and where do we go?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Well, that's happening here.
Speaker 15 (29:42):
Yeah, Matt, when Maddie we're missing, we had nobody and
we didn't have the luxury of podcasts.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
As they went around and trying to get me, your
attention was harm and especially.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
After Atkins was a quitter, say is referring to Michael Atkins,
Matt's alleged killer.
Speaker 19 (30:00):
We were lucky enough that we got put on to Gary,
who wasn't a Gary.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
We'd be still in the same situation you guys are in.
We'd be still planning their heads against the brick wall,
still out looking out in the National Park. We were
getting nowhere because we just kept having doors shut up
shut on that base every time we moved. So we've
got to thank Gary for that.
Speaker 17 (30:19):
And keep in mind so we did search that site
when that was faund We've been there in the a
searching and just cant it's not a walking track, no
one but you wealth.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
So we've actually been and gone in that spot.
Speaker 20 (30:30):
Believen as a copper, you're starting to what you can
do because you've got to go through the chain of command.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
And with that cold job that I did, you couldn't
get past your local inspector.
Speaker 20 (30:40):
So I got no doubt that if I'd have had
access to the police Commissioner in Stuart, I reckon he
would have kicked it off. But you can't get that
far because the chain of command and unger Ego Manius
many out ten between.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Ian Stewart was the Queensland Police Commissioner from twenty twelve
to twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
This is experience over the US to learn things, what works,
what done work.
Speaker 17 (31:00):
And you know we've had access to the Minister, members
of Parliament, one of the commissions at one point.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But this the knowledge the first is first involved.
Speaker 19 (31:11):
In the crime, doesn't understand what mordn we at the start,
and it's only after all the knockbacks and kicks.
Speaker 17 (31:16):
And the perseverance that you start to cultivate these things.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It's a set of long, long process. And the trouble
is that long process costs time and time of picks
the evidence. It becomes the war of attrition too, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Well?
Speaker 19 (31:33):
Back the thing they hope that they just keep after
knock back after knock back, up knockback, and I say, oh,
start it and go away.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I think one of.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
The things that's coming out of all in our.
Speaker 21 (31:42):
Cases here too is that you know, and I know
there's some very good police out there, and I'm not
going off on a rant about the police, but the
things that are happening, like in Gween's case with evidence disappearing.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Allison has just had a conversation.
Speaker 14 (31:56):
This week with you know, when's beyond say it the
time his ex wife she.
Speaker 21 (32:02):
Told the cold case detective things that should have been
brought to the inquest put on the file for whatever reason,
they just didn't put them in the fire, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
And I said, the same thing happening, and there's no
independent body over on you.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
We're like you said, I believe there's far more good
police than bad police out there. But the trouble is
it's like a chain. If then one bad policeman.
Speaker 17 (32:24):
In the chain, it breaks, all the good works are done.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Ruining in the individual.
Speaker 17 (32:32):
We got it out in our coroners, fine, and our
coroners said that Fay and.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I should receive police commendations.
Speaker 19 (32:38):
We're going back to which I wis it never happened.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Okay, that's not even coming plays.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
But since the podcast on their son Matty came out
last year, say and Mark finally did receive that commendation.
Speaker 14 (32:54):
I think Gary, both you and Jerry are a case
in point, aren't.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
You're both detectives who were above and.
Speaker 14 (33:00):
Beyond for the families, and look what happened pay you
actually did in return.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
So yeah, that went well. You talk about culture, they
continually tell witnesses not to talk to anyone. I don't
know where anywhere.
Speaker 20 (33:14):
It says in the q is that you can prevent
a whitch and talking to someone less you get a
caught order. But they continually tell them not to talk
to anyone, and it just, I say, it just restricts
your investigation. So then they just sit at the desk
and wait for someone to come in and put their
hands up. But I think when you've got someone like that,
you're talking about one bad cop in the chain. It
(33:35):
just destroys that that whole organization.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, I'm your scenario. It was half the su sign
on a homicide. Think of the dollars they'll say in
terms of their resources as well, they try to run
stations on the budget.
Speaker 16 (33:48):
I've never thought that homicide should be restrained by financial
the monetary concerns.
Speaker 14 (33:54):
Gary, we were tell why that Matt had cost the
moranda well over the budget.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, yeah, do you think we've got one?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
She said that.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
The budget they spit more on his case.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Jerry, did you have any thoughts on that?
Speaker 20 (34:10):
Well, I agree with Gary the equal pay and what
happens in is the fellow that is working and getting
complaints made against him and getting pressure put on him,
he ends up doing what the other fellow does and say, well, why.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Bother I can go to work, get a pain and
go home with no dramas. So that just festus.
Speaker 20 (34:27):
But with that one up there, and I've often said
when I worked down the coast as a trainee or
for the first five years, the number of jumpers that
we go to people that have jumped out of high
rises or fallen out of high rises, or pushed out
of high rises. The number of jobs you go to
and you've seen your partner would just say, yeah, another
jump up, take details and go back.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
And do the form.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
For Jerry is referring to the Brianna Robinson case, the
Gold Coast cheerleader who allegedly threw herself out of a
window in a high rise in Surface Paradise. Her aunt,
Janine Macney, is also part of Searchlight, but we can't
include what she has to say for legal reasons because
more than a decade later, a murder trial is imminent.
Speaker 20 (35:11):
No background checks, but no no financial history, no DV history,
nothing at all, no mental history.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
They would just write it all as jumper. Yeah, still happens.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Well, what happened is very twitchly Garreth. Everyone doesn't mind me,
just very sort of briefly going into this. Like the
fellow that.
Speaker 18 (35:27):
Found when said she was sitting upright in the car
like she was driving, but she had.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
A gun up between her legs. But yet the bullet
wound is in her left temple.
Speaker 14 (35:36):
Now the police photos to sink the show her lying
across the passenger seat lying across the gun. Now, the
young fellow who found her was nineteen at the time,
and he is adamant like to this day. Allison has
spoken to him a game recently and he was at
the ind question and they gave him about.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Three minutes and got rid of him a quick as
they could.
Speaker 18 (35:54):
He is adamant that she was sitting up right in
which case, like she was sitting up right with the
gun between the legs.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Padded about what we were getting to a left temple.
So it's almost, I think this is what Alison's saying.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
It's almost as if, well this ort us a bit
that way.
Speaker 14 (36:07):
She's sitting up with a gun between the exits and
the bullholes and the left temple.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
You know, that's the big mystery.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Anna's niece, Amy Wensley's case was also ruled a suicide.
In the first instance, she was the same.
Speaker 22 (36:19):
The gun was on her legs and the barrel was
pointing up and she shot on the right side.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
It's exactly the same suit.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
And Jerry, you were going to say about another pace similar.
Speaker 20 (36:29):
Just that one up north twenty years ago. They had
two inquests into it, the lady and Arnole. One a
copper when he retired. Then he came out and said
that at the scene that they the detectives that attended,
said yeah, no, we'll just to murder suicide and right
up because we can't afford the overtime to have the crime,
saying guard until tomorrow. And they wrote it off that
(36:51):
these two best friends basically one shot the other than
shot herself, but after that bashed each other with rocks
and choked each other and everything else. But the second
in quest versally said it was a husband and one
of the women that did it. But this Copper after
you retired, gave evidence of the in quest that that's
why it wasn't treated as a double murder, because of
(37:11):
the over time forguarding the scene overnight.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I remember that one.
Speaker 22 (37:14):
Jerry, did you have anything to do with it? I
mean like you didn't work on the case.
Speaker 14 (37:17):
Not like you know that was wasn't it in the Julia?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
What was the outcome of that? Does anyone know or
is it still unsolved?
Speaker 1 (37:27):
He's dead.
Speaker 20 (37:28):
I'd say the family hit the same hurdles as what
for you people have nothing happens because it's so long ago.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
And so I didn't know about Amy. The story with Amy,
but it sounds very similar to the one with Gwen.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Only is twenty four years old. She lived in Perth.
She was a young mum. She had two kids.
Speaker 22 (37:46):
A week before she died, she told a stepfather that
he'd held a knife to her throat. There's just there's
no domestic violence with the police. There's no record of it.
But that doesn't mean it didn't happen because a lot
of people women don't report her. She spoke to a
mother on the day that she was leaving, and her
mum rang her and her mum's my sister, and she
(38:07):
was very hysterical of an upset and my sister said,
pack your stuff, come to me. Amy said yeah. My
sister said, I'll come and get you. She said, no, Mom,
I'm leaving now. I'm on my way. Amy put her
kids in the car. She had two small children. She
put her children in the car.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
One of the.
Speaker 23 (38:20):
Daughters was turning four in two days time.
Speaker 22 (38:23):
She packed the present. She put a passport in the bag.
She put so much stuff in her car.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
She's leaving. Ten minutes after she spoke to a mum
or something.
Speaker 22 (38:31):
Like that, she's dead. She never made it. Scum that's
what I call him because I hate saying his name.
Scum and his mate were on the property. They're both shooters,
and they said Damia killed herself and she was found
sitting behind a door as a recess. Behind the door
if you could imagine almost like a rectangle, and if
you opened the door, she would have been boxed in
(38:52):
in this area. So she was sitting here. It's almost
like she's getting away from something. That's how I see it.
You know, she's in an anyway.
Speaker 23 (39:01):
She's shot on the right side of her head. She's
right handed.
Speaker 22 (39:05):
Her right hand was found under her, so she's sitting
on it and there's no gunshot residue, there's no blood
spatter on that hand. So police are trying to say
that she used a left hand to shoot herself on
the right side of the head with a double barrel
shotgun and probably used the floor to put the butt
of the.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Gun to do it.
Speaker 22 (39:25):
Right like, this has been going on for years twenty fourteen,
so that's over eight years now. They had a cold case,
became involved and they had this is after I went
to the Corruption Crime Commission and said five years after
Amy died, no one's fucking listening to me. It's it's
exactly what the levisons have said, and you know the
(39:46):
others that police just want to write it off. You know,
it doesn't matter what the family say, they just want
to write it off. So I'm asking police questions. The
detectors keeps giving me the most ridiculous fucking answers, like
you know, it's not CSI, and you know I googled shit.
It's like they just don't give you anything. So I
went to the Coruption and Crime Commission five years after
she died, and they listened and they suspected serious misconduct.
(40:09):
It was two detectives on the night. They weren't even
homicide detectives. They were detectives to drive around in a
car on shift, waiting to be called out to a
serious assault or an armed robbery.
Speaker 23 (40:20):
You know, they're not homicide. They weren't there anyway.
Speaker 22 (40:23):
Fifteen minutes in their room they came out they said
she did it. There was a very heated discussion, as
they called it. But the uniform cop, his name is
Larry lovely Man. Larry said, now it was an argument.
Had to argue with it about it because they wanted
to call it a suicide, and he's saying no, no, no, no,
this looks really suspicious. They didn't even speak to Scummery's mate.
Those detectives did not even go to speak to scummer.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Of its scum and his mate didn't even talk to him.
Didn't talk to anyone in my family. Nothing, didn't do anything,
just said she did it. But yeah, so Amy is dead.
Speaker 22 (40:52):
She shot herself after putting the kids in the car,
telling them, Mum, she's on her way. She's right hand
and shot on the right side hand under here his
double barrel shotgun.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
So let's do this, shall we?
Speaker 22 (41:04):
And at the inquest he even gave evidence scum because
Amy fractured two vertebrates a year before in a car accident,
because that oursole was driving and ran off the road,
so she had a halo drilled into a head. He
gave evidence at the inquest saying that right up until
the day she died, she still had trouble moving her neck,
(41:25):
that she would have to turn the top part of
her chest and shoulders to turn. And I thought, as
anyone else hearing this like this, arshole is actually saying this,
not even realizing what he's saying.
Speaker 23 (41:35):
So we've got Amy one hand under here a double
barrel shotgun like this.
Speaker 22 (41:40):
Remember, apparently she's having trouble turning a net, so how
is she going to But you know, I'm no detective,
I'm no expert. Let's leave it to them, shall we.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
The thing is looking at Sue's one when the prosecutor
was there, and he was just kept on saying, you know,
is it possible to sue? Didn't he Sue? He just
kept saying, as anything's possible, but it's really, really really unlikely.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
The cold case got.
Speaker 22 (42:07):
Bio mechanics expert, right, he's a professor at the WA University.
Speaker 23 (42:11):
They asked him to go out to the house with
the cold case. They had.
Speaker 22 (42:14):
They had the actual house and the room where Amy
died for a whole day to conduct a series of
scenarios testing, you know, reenactments, and they got a police
officer who was very similar stature to my niece. Now,
Amy was like if I said she'd come up to here,
she's only small and.
Speaker 23 (42:31):
She's very very slim. Amy's very slim.
Speaker 22 (42:33):
So they found an officer like her to do all
this stuff. Right, he's come back and said it is
highly unlikely that she's done it. And it's more likely,
like it's highly consistent with her being shot by another person.
The coroner at the time got that report and decided
to send it outside.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Of wa for a second opinion.
Speaker 22 (42:52):
Anyway, he sent it to a biomechanics human engineering expert
here in Sydney, and his report came back to say
he agreed with Professor Ackland that someone else has shot her.
Speaker 23 (43:04):
Why is that not enough for the coroner or anyone else?
Speaker 2 (43:07):
You know?
Speaker 22 (43:08):
And at the inquest, it was disgusting what the police did.
They absolutely pushed for a finding of suicide. They character
assassinated Amy and they fucking don't know her.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
They don't know Amy.
Speaker 22 (43:19):
I know her, but the way they talked about her
and the things that they said in that courtroom about her,
the police were disgusting. And I'm talking about those detectives
all the way up. We've got Professor Ackland, we've got
doctor Gibson, we've got Ron.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Iddles who's looked at the case as well.
Speaker 22 (43:36):
You know, how can you just totally put that aside
major crime apparently who was just as shit as those
two detectives and everyone else after them, including that detective superintendent.
Speaker 23 (43:48):
How can you listen to them and ignore the experts.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
They're just hoping I go away, but I won't, Alice,
look at all these faces on the streen. I mean,
all these people here, their love one can't speak for themselves.
Speaker 17 (44:02):
The court fin allege things in the court, and the
inquishing collegian say things they can't speak for themselves.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Thank God for these people. They're talking if their loved one.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
And that's the thing, isn't it. And this is when
I spoke to missing persons in the AFP, and they said,
the person that knows best is the next akin the
people that actually know them. And for whatever reason, people
like you are completely ignored in this process.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
It's the cost.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
You know.
Speaker 22 (44:31):
You guys are talking before Gary and Jerry about you,
sorry Els, and you asked them a question about the
policing and why they do things, and then the topic
came up about the cost.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
You know. Fay said that you were told that you know,
it's cost Miranda Police Station X.
Speaker 23 (44:47):
Amount of money. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 22 (44:49):
Maybe if you hadn't done in the job properly instead
of writing it off, it wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Have cost so much. How about that?
Speaker 22 (44:57):
Can I tell you my blood races when we start
talking about this shit. It's so freaking angry.
Speaker 14 (45:01):
But Anna, they tell us that is when we got
the boom box fat and they wanted to identify it
out of that's car.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
It took him an hour to undo the tape very carefully.
Was what didn't you just ripping?
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Oh no, this tape costs a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
We're going to reuse it.
Speaker 19 (45:21):
Tape this big boom box, it's about this beel.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
And gets in heavy brown paper.
Speaker 17 (45:28):
But take that quite well with with this evidence tape
and he can copy the healing a little bit.
Speaker 10 (45:35):
So what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Would cut off on this expensive tape. We're going to
reuse this. That's what you're up again.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
It's both inspiring and frustrating talking with these brave people
who have championed the memories of their loved ones, and
in some cases one justice for them as they put
their lives on hold. Listening to Anna talk about her
niece and the way she died so much in common
with Gwen, serves to reinforce Sue's belief that her sister,
(46:05):
too was a victim not of depression, but of foul play.
Here is an excerpt of the coroner's findings in relation
to Amy Wensley, dated ninth of September twenty twenty one.
Speaker 9 (46:19):
The initial attending police officers had concerns that another person
may have been involved in Miss Wensley's death, so they
requested the attendance of detectives. The attending detectives spoke to
the uniformed police and viewed Miss Wensley in situ in
the bedroom. After a short period, the detectives formed the
view that the evidence supported the conclusion that Miss Wensley
(46:39):
had committed suicide. They informed the uniform police, who disagreed
with this conclusion, but followed instructions to release the protected
forensic area that had been declared and allowed Miss Wensley's
body to be taken to the mortuary. The next morning,
Mister Simonds's father, who was the owner of the house,
arranged for the bedroom to be forensically cleaned using a
(47:00):
cleaner who had been suggested by the police the night before.
That afternoon, after Miss Wensley's mother raised concerns about her
daughter's death and some further evidence was considered, the initial
decision of the detectives that there was no evidence of
criminality was reviewed and a new investigation was commenced into
the death by different detectives. The second investigation was hampered
(47:21):
by the fact that the scene had been contaminated, but
ultimately the investigators reached the same conclusion that there was
no evidence of the involvement of another person in Miss
Wensley's death. The matter was then given to coronial investigators
before being provided to the coroner as noted above. Following
further coronial investigation, a third investigation was conducted by police
(47:42):
into the possibility that another person was involved in Miss
Wensley's death. That investigation left open the possibility that her
death occurred by suicide or homicide or accident. After hearing
from all potential witnesses, the Deputy State Coroner concluded that
there was not enough evidence to make a formal finding
as to how Miss Wensley died. Accordingly, her honor made
(48:04):
an open finding as to the manner of death. Some
adverse comments were made about the standard of the initial
police investigation and the limitations displaced on the coroner's ability
to consider all relevant evidence.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Later, I caught up again with Gary Jubilin, who said
this of the group, the.
Speaker 16 (48:25):
Idea of the group is not to interfere with an investigation.
It's just if someone's hit a brick wall on a
inquiry relating to their relative or loved one, that what
options have they got now that might simply be Look,
the advice I might give is just pick the phone
up and speak to the investigating officer or send an email.
(48:47):
Little simple things like that, Practical things like that that
will help them navigate their work way through what can
be a very frustrating time. Because one thing I learned
as a police officer is a frustration that families felt
if they didn't believe a matter has been investigated properly. Now,
quite often that's just through lack of communication. Sometimes those
(49:09):
matters have been investigated properly, but that hasn't been communicated
to the families. On other occasions, there's been mistakes made
or investigative opportunities have been missed, and the families are
quite rightly concerned that the matter's not been investigated properly.
So basically, it's a group of people who have shared experiences,
(49:31):
criminal investigation background, some legal backgrounds, and victims' families that
collectively just trying to help them navigate their way through
obviously very difficult times. That was a mantra that was
drummed into me as a young homicide detective, and it's
something that I tried to pass on that when you're
(49:53):
called to a matter, treated as suspicious until you can
determine otherwise, and now that is just it's homicide. Look
at it until you gather the evidence up so you
can say, don't make assumptions. The biggest mistakes that can
be made in investigations is when assumptions are made. And
I've seen that in my career time and time again.
(50:13):
And make sure it's properly investigated right from the start
that crucial period and everyone heard the saying that that
first forty eight hours a crucial time. It is more effective,
it's more efficient for the organization, whatever jurisdiction that might
be the investigating please, but it also gives a family comfort.
And I think the families and this is sometimes it's
(50:36):
such a terrible thing to lose a loved one, and
sometimes it's difficult to accept what's happened. But it's made
easier if they've satisfied that the investigation that was done
into the death of their loved one was done thoroughly
and professionally.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
So true, which brings me to documents we obtained about
When's cremation in nineteen eighty three. One part particularly struck alarm.
Speaker 6 (51:03):
Bells Cremation Permit. I John C Ramsay, Officer licensed under
the Cremation Act, do hereby permit the cremation of the
body of one Kevin Alexander Osborne this eighteenth day of
October nineteen eighty three at the Licensed Crematorium of North
Queensland Crematorium Limited, situated at Bruce Highway, Townsville.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Who is Kevin Osborne and whose ashes were given to
Gwen's family. The ashes were sent by mail to a
funeral home in Narrabrai in New South Wales. The speed
and haste with which Wehen was treated in the days
after her death raised the possibility that even her ashes
(51:49):
were mixed up something else the family has to contend with.
Speaker 20 (51:56):
Well.
Speaker 11 (51:56):
It was a terrible shock to Assault Allison, because when
we got the actual documentation I saw that it doesn't
even have Gwen's name on It actually has a man's
name on it, someone that we've never heard of and
that we have no association with. So now that's left
us with not knowing whether we even got Gwen's ashes
(52:18):
or whether we receive somebody else's ashes. One of the
things that I thought was that for our own peace
of mind and for the family to know that it
is actually Gwen that we've got buried in the same
plot as our nana and our little brother, was to
have her ashes tested for DNA. But I've researched as
much as I can about it, and that doesn't appear
(52:40):
to be anywhere in Australia that we can get that done.
I believe there is somewhere that can be done that
can do it in the US, but it's a very
involved process. So we've left Gwen buried with our nana
and little Christopher and we just hope that it is
actually her ashes that are buried there.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
We checked online records and founded Kevin Alexander Osborne, who
passed away in cans at the age of fifty one
on October sixteenth, nineteen eighty two, that is one year
and one day before Gwen was cremated at the same facility,
suggesting that the inclusion of his name in Gwen's documentation
may have been due to a typographical error, changing nineteen
(53:25):
eighty two to nineteen eighty three. Resulting in his record
ending up in the file for the same day as Gwen's,
rather than a physical mixup with Gwen's ashes, at least
we hope.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
So.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
So we come to the crucial question what actually happened
to Gwen Grover. Her sister, Sue has a very firm idea,
which she has shared with police and the coroner.
Speaker 11 (53:52):
I'm one hundred percent convinced Gwen didn't commit suicide and
that there was someone else involved. I believe Ken's over
kill Gwen.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Giving evidence under oath, Sue told the inquest that she
believed Ken Sober may have been involved in Gwen's death,
an opinion dismissed by coroner Nereta Wilson in her findings.
Speaker 11 (54:15):
I believe the reason he killed her is because she
left him. Now, Ken Soper had had one marriage that
had broken down already, which is not unusual in today's society.
If people get married three and four times and nobody
that's an eye live. But back in nineteen eighty three,
it was a very different circumstance. His first wife left
(54:36):
him when she had two little children.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Just to clarify here, Sue is actually talking about Ken's
second wife Pamela. At this stage, we haven't been able
to speak to Ken's first wife.
Speaker 11 (54:47):
For women to leave their husband's back in that era
with small children, there had to be something pretty drastic
going on because they knew once they left they were
on their own.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
So it had this broken marriage.
Speaker 11 (54:57):
A short time after that, he took up with Gwen
and then, by all accounts, you know, he showered her
with gifts.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
He virtually smothered her from day one.
Speaker 11 (55:07):
He pushed her to.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Marry him.
Speaker 11 (55:11):
They became engaged fairly quickly. He bought her a house,
he bought her jewelry. It's your classic scenario of, you know,
a controlling relationship. And then when she left him, and
this is just I'm talking from a woman's perspective.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
Now I've met can Sober.
Speaker 12 (55:27):
I saw what his ego was like.
Speaker 11 (55:29):
I believe the fact that Gwen would rather leave him,
go and live in a in the much mentioned dirty
little flat with no money, battling on her own with
the boys, and be with him, I think was just
all too.
Speaker 6 (55:43):
Much for him.
Speaker 11 (55:44):
The general consensus, or the popular view, seems to be
it was a point to to rifle, whether it was
a semi automatic or bolt action.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
No one can agree. But somehow or other, Gwen, not.
Speaker 11 (55:55):
Knowing how to use guns, hating guns, being frightened of
them as I am, I needed to sit in the
driver's seat of the car.
Speaker 3 (56:02):
She was right handed.
Speaker 11 (56:04):
She managed to load this weapon.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
So then refers to the version of Ken's story that
Gwen came into his bedroom and stole the gun in
the middle of the night, and then there's this one.
Speaker 3 (56:15):
Then another version of his stories.
Speaker 11 (56:17):
He told my brother at the funeral that it was
in the boot of her car because he borrowed her
car to go hunting. The latest version of his story
at the inquest was that it was in the shed
down the back. He borrowed it off Glenn Graham. He
put it in the shed down the back. Gwen managed
to get that rifle. Not knowing anything about gun, she
managed to find the right bullets that go with that rifle.
(56:41):
And if you look in the crime scene photos, once
again there's a box of bullets sitting on the seat.
I don't know why she took a whole box of bullets,
like normally you would take a few, I would imagine,
but she took the right box of bullets for the gun.
Speaker 3 (56:55):
She sat in the car.
Speaker 11 (56:57):
She may not have been drinking, or she may have
been point one five eight, depending which one of the
reports she liked to read on which to have the week.
But let's say she was point one five eight percent.
She was disoriented, She could barely walk, she could barely talk,
she couldn't think straight. Her motor skills and coordination were
(57:17):
completely affected. Somehow or other, she sat there, she loaded
the gun. Being a right handed person, she manipulated the
gun somehow within this very small confines of a small
Ford Chrysler. Somehow or other, Gwen never used a gun
in her life, didn't know how to load it, managed
to get the right bullets, managed to sit in the
(57:38):
car point one five eight, managed to sit there and
in one shot get it exactly in the right spot
in the temple that killed her instantly. And then and then,
by some miraculous act of physics, the gun did a
complete almost one eighty flipped over the other way in
(58:01):
the confines.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
Of the car, and she ended up lying across it.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
So we have detailed in earlier episodes how rare female
suicide with a gun is a fact dismissed by Detective
Senior Constable ed Kinbacker at the inquest and by the
(58:25):
coroner in her findings. But we also need to emphasize
that in the case of homicides involving women, the murderer
is more often than not their partner. A nineteen ninety
seven study in Australia found that more than one third
of firearm killings were committed by an intimate partner through
(58:50):
port states quote that victims who are married in a
de facto relationship, separated, or divorced are more likely to
be killed by firearms than other victims end quote. In Australia,
on average, a woman is killed every week by her partner,
according to violence against women prevention group our Watch. But
(59:14):
simply it would be unsurprising, even more likely, statistically speaking,
that Gwen was killed by a partner overtaking her own life.
Considered the evidence about the incident that led to Gwen
leaving Ken Soper, Kenned asked Gwen to marry him. They
(59:34):
were planning on having a baby, yet when interviewed by police,
he claimed he could not remember why Gwen had left
him so suddenly.
Speaker 24 (59:44):
The argument occurred after we'd been out Gwen, the boys,
David and myself, when we got home, Gwen went to
open the front door, and as she opened the door,
David tried to push through and I stopped him and
told him that he should wait for his mother to
win to first whilst our recall stopping David, but I'm
not sure exactly what I did, but you know, that's
(01:00:04):
what started the argument. It appeared to me that David
was Gwen's favorite child, and I guess she took it
more seriously, which I think is why she decided to
move out.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
I'm not exactly sure what I did, That's what Ken
told the police, but whatever it was, it was enough
to send Gwen fleeing with her boys.
Speaker 25 (01:00:31):
My deepest sympathies go to the family and friends of
Gwen Grover who have been so devastatingly impacted by her
tragic death.
Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
This is a statement we received from the Queensland Police
Minister Mark Ryan following our examination of the conduct of
the police Cold Case team in their investigation into the
death of Gwen Grover.
Speaker 25 (01:00:52):
Like all Queenslanders, I expect the highest standards of professional
and ethical conduct from every member of the Queensland Police Service.
If anyone has a complaint or evidence of inappropriate conduct,
they should take their concerns to the relevant authority. Similarly,
if anyone contacts my office with concerns of this nature,
I will ensure those concerns are passed on to the
(01:01:15):
relevant authority for assessment. In respect of this matter, I
have referred the concerns raised to the Crime and Corruption
Commission for assessment.
Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
We'll let you know what the Crime and Corruption Commission
has to say about the way Gwen's case was handled.
Next episode, Australia's Hidden Homicides.
Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
This is a national disgrace. To be perfectly frank with.
Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
You and renowned and respected good cop ron Iddles gives
his two Bobsworth.
Speaker 7 (01:01:52):
Looks like her hand has been placed on the barrel
to shoot herself.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
She would have had to hold the barrel to him.
Left for poetry.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
Shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot au
(01:02:29):
or leave us an anonymous tip at shot Inthdark dot
com dot au. If this podcast has raised issues for you,
please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen, or visit them
at www dot lifeline, dot org dot au. This podcast
(01:02:51):
is brought to you by me presenter and journalist Alison Sandy.
If you like what you're hearing, please and review our podcast.
It helps other listeners find us special thanks to my writer,
producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's sister and tireless campaigner for Justice
(01:03:13):
Sue Cole, sound designer Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before
our theme music is by Bob Kronk the First and
there is a link to his music on Spotify in
the show notes.
Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
When Away, So Swirll
Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
The Pains and Shot in the Dark is a seven
News production.
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