October 19, 2023 • 41 mins
Sue and Irene hold a memorial at the spot where their sister Gwen died 40 years ago in Cairns, joined by locals supporting their cause, as new information surfaces about Gwen's ex-husband and the legal effort to win a new Coronial Inquest gathers momentum.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contained sensitive and disturbing information, as well as
details relating to an alleged suicide. We urge anyone struggling
with their emotions to contact Lifeline on one three one
four or visit them at www dot lifeline dot org
(00:20):
dot AU.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Why can't we.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Find out what happened?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Why won't anyone help us? It was not suicide. There
was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Shot in the Dark Episode eleven.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Well, as I was saying earlier, I certainly never there'd
be a referendum or a war in Israel.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Today when I organize.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
This, we are on Lake Street in Cannes, at the
spot where forty years ago Gwen Grover was found lifeless
and clutching a rifle tightly in her right hand. It
is right here that Gwen's life and her reputation were
lost thanks to a police investigation that immediately and only
(01:27):
assumed she was both victim and perpetrator. Sue is tying
a special number of ribbons to the branches of the
tree planted by Cannes City Council in memory of Gwen.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Thirty two, and that was the age that Gwen was
when she was taken from us. So we've got one
for every year of her life up until then.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Sue's been practically preparing for Gwen's fortieth anniversary since we
were here last year recording the podcast. Since air, the
Kansas City Council planted a tree here in tribute to Gwen,
whose death was so poorly handled.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
It feels surreal, And as I was saying to someone yesterday,
whenever I come to cans, I'm very conscious that this
is the place where Green was taken from us. And
it's always constantly on my mind that when she moved
back here, she asked me to come with her, and
I didn't because I was a teenage girl at the
(02:28):
time and I had.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
A job and a boyfriend and.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Well the usual stuff that goes on in your life
at that stage.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So she came back here on her.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Own, and it's weighed on my mind every day since
that if I'd been here with her, she would probably
still be with us today because we did everything together well.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Sue isn't allowed to talk candidly about the significant developments
that have occurred in the months leading up to this point.
She is much more confident her sister's death won't continue
to be regarded as a suicide.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Since we've really started delving into the case, and you've
done your investigations as well, we now know that there's
absolutely no evidence that.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Points to the finding of suicide.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
We now have enough evidence to thoroughly and completely appeal
those findings and have those findings overturned.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
So the p.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I'm did Reford.
Speaker 6 (03:32):
I'm retired now, but I did serve four terms on
the local ken City Council and we came to Keynes
around the time that this very tragic episode took place.
I've been a survivor of domestic violence myself from my
very early marriage, and I just knew that women had
(03:53):
to stand up for themselves.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So I was involved in setting up.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
The Domestic Violence Service and we've been looking after women
and children and some men in this whole region for
over twenty years. The reason that I'm not talking so
well is that I was joked and have had permanent
damage to my voice box and my throat earlier.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Deardry Ford is a local powerhousing cans a survivor of
domestic violence. She still works to help survivors today and
is due after the memorial to help a woman move
to a new home.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
There are the twenty four hour helplines for everybody, including men. Really,
just make the move. Just realize, for your children and yourself,
you don't have to put up with this.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
This isn't right.
Speaker 6 (04:52):
Nobody expects you to put up with things. I'm a
divorced Catholic, so for me that was difficult. But this
is a caring, loving God. He doesn't want you to
stay in this situation. I think it's wonderful that the
family have just been there. She's been like a dog
with a bone. And that's a funny expression, I know,
but it means so much to that family, and it's
(05:15):
also part of their healing. I think that they're going
to try and seek justice where they can.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Hello y'all, and so lovely to finally, thank you so
much for your support.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh my pleasure.
Speaker 7 (05:31):
You're an amazing woman, amazing you're grit and determination.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yes, who support from people like you, I've been able
to keep going.
Speaker 7 (05:41):
And people like you to be flying the flag and
raising issues and not walking away when it.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Gets too hard. Well I certainly might be doing that.
Speaker 7 (05:50):
My name is your Londient. I am the LMP candidate
for Cans. I'm also the CEO of Wills of Wellness,
which is a charity that provide it's primary health care
to people who are homeless, sleeping rough and I also
have an organization called Empowering Women Empowering Communities. Very very
emotional and very difficult to think that we were standing
(06:13):
on a spot where a woman died forty years ago.
I have so much respect for Sue. She has a
grit and a determination that I think most people at
some stage would have walked away from what it is
that she's doing. And for that she has my full
support because we need people like Sue and others who
(06:37):
are flying that flag, who are champiing an issue. And
it's usually those people where that issue has impacted them.
And some people might argue they're a squeaky wheel or
a broken record, but the only way you can affect
change is by raising an issue and keep talking about it.
(06:58):
Here we are forty years later with the Cans hockey
Field saying yep, please put a plaque on our fence,
let us remember your sister. The Cans Regional Council have
allowed a tree to be planted in honor and memory
of Gwen. Our community has not forgotten Gwen and we
will always open our arms to Sue because Gwen is
(07:22):
a part of our story and a part of our history.
Speaker 8 (07:25):
I met Sue Cole on the set of a program
seeking Joys.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Sue reunites with Terry Irving, whom she met on the
SBS Insight program earlier this year. Terry spent five years
in jail for an armed robbery he did not commit.
One of the detectives on the case was Ed Kimbacker.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
I can only talk about my involvement with at Kingbacker,
which began thirty years ago, and I found him to
be a man who's very fixated on getting a result.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Terry went all the way to the High Court to
win his freedom in the nineteen nineties. Since then, Queensland
police have consistently said they've made reforms to improve things
for people like him.
Speaker 8 (08:09):
I disagree. I disagree. There's a system of protecting police
in Queensland that goes back well beyond for Jokie Peterson.
I believe now that they run right over whatever it
is that they wanted to do. They have a close bond.
They are investigated by their fellow police officers in the
(08:30):
Criminal Justice Commission. They are exempt if they not to
participate in a criminal investigation, they have an option of
choosing a disciplinary investigation. At present, there's over a thousand
police and public servants who have avoided investigation due to
the fact that they've resigned while they're on sick leave
(08:53):
while under investigation for a disciplinary matter.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
That is wrong.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Just to clarify, haven't been able to verify the figures
provided by mister Irving, but are aware that many disciplinary
proceedings do cease if an employee resigns. According to the
Australian Public Service Commission guidelines, it's at the discretion of
the employer to make a decision as to whether the
investigation continues.
Speaker 8 (09:19):
It's incredible, it is incredible, and anything is incredible means
that lacks credibility. And for any story that has come
out and pursued or put forward by the Cans Police,
I think is wrong. It needs to be inquired. I
just find them unbelievable, and that is not a compliment.
(09:43):
I think the evidence that Sue and the podcast have
been able to own Carver indicates that it definitely was
not a suicide. I think she's a champion. I believe
it's an expression of true love when somebody sacrifices forty
years of their lives in the memory and the belief
(10:04):
in someone they love so dearly is admirable.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
In a lovely surprise, more new faces appear to remember
Gwen Heather Stewart.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
So we live up on the tablelands and follow the podcast.
So I just thought we'd come down and show it to.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Support Taniel Jenkins and I'm Heather's mother and she put
me onto the podcast and yeah, so I've been following
it and wanted to.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, like Heather said, show support.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Heather and Tanya join Sue, her sister Irene and a
small group on the roadside. The occasional passers by have
no idea what is going on. When we launched Shot
in the Dark in February this year, QPS was still
smarting from a report following a Commission of Inquiry which
(10:52):
revealed a culture of bad behavior.
Speaker 7 (10:55):
A badge of dishonor sexism, racism, bullying, apathy.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
There are some deep seated cultural issues.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
These were exactly the issues identified by this podcast and
referred by the Police Minister Mark Ryan to Queensland's Crime
and Corruption Commission or Triple C. One of the inquiries
most significant recommendations was to establish a civilian police integrity
Unit in the Triple C within eighteen months to deal
(11:26):
with all complaints against officers.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Government will absolutely implement whatever recommendations.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
That still hasn't happened. Currently, police investigate their own, but
the Triple C can cherry pick referrals of police corruption
allegations for investigation.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
We're at the Cans Courthouse, which is centrally located in
Cans and this is where Gwen's inquest was held in
twenty twenty one. It's quite an imposing intimiday building, as
I'm sure they're intended to be, particularly for people who've
never had anything to do with the court process before.
(12:08):
So being back here today it brings back a whole
brain of emotions and memories, as you can imagine, most
of them unpleasant.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Just to refresh your memory. Our investigation to that point
revealed that any information other than that pointing to suicide
was completely overlooked by investigating officers at the time of
Gwen's death. Similarly, cold case officers who did their own
investigation into Gwen's death prior to the twenty twenty one
(12:45):
inquest ignored evidence, raising the possibility that Gwen was murdered.
This was corroborated by documents we obtained under right to
information laws. Eventually, the Triple C confirmed it would not
instigate this matter, saying it wasn't within its jurisdiction.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
I followed up with the Triple C asking if the
Triple C would investigate the disrespectful and well, there's no
other word for it, discussing emails that were sent around
that I received underwrite the information where they were speaking
about Gwen and the most disrespectful and dreadful terms, And
(13:30):
the Triple C came back to me. And initially after
many weeks of inquiries and then many months of inquiries,
the only contact I have with them was a staff
member there rang me up and complained bitterly for twenty
five minutes about how much work I'd given them. So
when we eventually got that sorted out, she then said
(13:52):
to me that she didn't believe that the emails were
directed at Gwen, and I said, well, I don't understand
how you've come to that conclusion, because it's clear that
they were discussing Gwen, and it's clear that from the
tone of the emails that they were doing everything that
they possibly could to denigrate Gwen's character and dismiss her,
(14:13):
as they do with so many other victims of crime.
So I then asked for an internal review of their decision, which.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
More months later came back.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
The internal review said that they didn't have any concerns
about what had taken place, So I then asked for
an external review. The external review eventually came back saying
there was no problem with the internal review. So I've
now asked for an external review of the external review.
But during all this process, somewhere along the way, in
(14:47):
one of the many letters, they stated that it.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Wasn't the concern.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Of the Triple C that it was actually to be
handed back. If I had any issues at all, that
I should go back to the q Now, asking the
QPS to investigate the QPS is completely futile, as we've
seen from past events.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So I then reached out to the Police Minister.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Mark Ryan again because he actually spoke out on television
in a report with Channel seven when those emails about
when were first aired, and he made it very clear
that he did not accept those emails and that he
expected the highest level of professionalism from his staff.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
However, when I send.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
Him back an email asking him, you know, could he
please help me, basically because the Triple C had washed
the hands of the entire situation. His office came back
with a response saying that it wasn't an issue to
be dealt with by him, that it was to be
dealt with by the Triple C. So, like so many
families before me, and I'm sure so many families moving forward,
(15:54):
we get caught in this.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Vicious cycle of.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
One government depart sending us to another government department, who
then sends us back to the original government department, purely
and simply because no one wants to take accountability and
nobody wants to take any action. And I'm sure they
think that if they stall families for long enough, and
they basically bamboozle us with the bureaucracy, we'll all just
(16:22):
go away and leave them alone. But I'm afraid that's
not going to be the case with me.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
We approached Triple C chairman Bruce Barber for an interview.
We were knocked back, but a spokesperson said according to
the Crime and Corruption Act of twenty twenty one, complaints
about the conduct of officers were a matter for QPS. However,
mister Barber told a Parliamentary Estimates hearing in August that quote,
(16:52):
effective independent oversight was essential for the handling of police
complaints and the system needed to be enhanced in a statement,
we were advised this.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
Generally speaking, the Triple C only investigates complaints of corrupt
conduct which contain allegations of a serious or systemic nature.
There is no one factor in the assessment of complaints
about police or the assessment of any complaint, because complaints
vary in their nature and the conduct alleged in each
complaint varies. An experienced team of Triple C officers assesses
(17:25):
each complaint received to determine if the complaint is within
the Triple C's jurisdiction, if it requires investigating, and if so,
whether the Triple C or another agency conducts the investigation.
The Triple C considers the legislative principles for how it
should perform its corruption function. This includes if public interest
and public confidence requires the Triple C to investigate a matter,
(17:47):
as well as the capacity of an agency when it
refers the matter to them to deal with. You can
view these at Section thirty four of the Crime and
Corruption Act two thousand and one.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Put simply, the Triple C doesn't have the resources to
handle routine police misconduct claims. Alleged bias, oversight, or neglect
in investigations is not considered serious corruption, even if it
can be proven. An example of serious corruption would be
paying bribes with brown paper bags stuffed with cash, basically
(18:21):
something equivalent to what led to the Fitzgerald Inquiry. For
those not aware of the Fitzgerald Inquiry, it occurred in
the nineteen eighties, leading to massive reforms and changed to
the policing and political landscape. It also took the scalps
of Police Commissioner Terry Lewis, who was convicted of corruption,
(18:42):
jailed and stripped of his knighthood, and former Premier Sir
Joe Blki Pedisen. The Triple C was formed off the
back of it, although originally it was titled the Crime
and Justice Commission or the CJC, then the Crime and
Misconduct Commission the CMC, before realization that they couldn't possibly
(19:03):
handle such a massive workload in terms of misconduct. However,
Barbara agrees someone independent needs to investigate police misconduct, but
it must be significantly resourced and funded. We've acquired court
(19:28):
documents about a District Court trial held in April two
thousand two involving Gwen's former husband. The trial was the
Queen versus Duncan Grover. For legal reasons, we want to
point out right now that this trial was abandoned during
the questioning of witnesses. You will see why. But up
(19:52):
to that point we learned about aw full allegations made
against Duncan Grover, which are still relevant even if they
were part of a trial. Well that was discontinued. New
laws just announced in Queensland provide the right for journalists
to now name accused sex offenders unless there is a
non publication order in place. Subsequently, media was able to
(20:15):
reveal the name of Australia's worst accused pedophile, former childcare worker,
Ashley Griffith, who has more than sixteen hundred charges laid
against him. To be clear, Duncan Grover is not a
sex offender. Accusations against him were never substantiated. However, even
(20:36):
the fact this trial occurred after a complaint found its
way to police, who lay charges which were then put
forward to the prosecution by the DPP, is pertinent to
our investigation. Given the way information is often used against people,
particularly in small communities and from our experience how key
(20:56):
witnesses identified by true crime podcasts can sumptime times get
cold feet. Can Soper is no longer living, but there
are plenty of other people who stand to lose face
if proof is unearthed that he was involved in the
death of Gwen Grover. We're using voice actors reading from
(21:18):
the court transcript. Here is prosecutor, mister Priestley.
Speaker 9 (21:23):
If you're on a please there is one indictment before
the court charging Duncan Roy Grover with two counts of
indecent treatment of a child or of the age of
twelve years. I asked that he be arraigned on those charges.
Speaker 10 (21:37):
Under twelve in care.
Speaker 9 (21:39):
Is that right, Yes, your honor.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Duncan Roy Grover was charged with two counts of unlawfully
and indecently dealing with a twelve year old girl between
February two thousand and August two thousand and one in Cans.
He pleaded not guilty. A jury was impaneled and the
trial got underway. The first witness was a woman the
(22:03):
foster care for the alleged victim. She says she picked
the girl up after she stayed at the Grover's house
for a sleepover with her friend.
Speaker 11 (22:11):
We were just bathing and said something like she went
kind of shy, and she said something like, if I
tell you something, will you not say anything to anybody?
And I sort of thought at the time she'd probably
just done something a bit naughty, and I said, I
agreed that I wouldn't tell anybody, And she said when
(22:31):
I was at house, she said, Duncan touched me down there,
and she gestured to her vaginal area, which was a
bit of a shock. And I asked her, well, how
did that happen? And she told me that she'd been
asleep and she'd woken up with a bad dream, and
she'd gone into Duncan's room and he said that she
could hop into bed with him.
Speaker 10 (22:51):
And just try to tell us the conversation as accurately
as you can remember it.
Speaker 11 (22:58):
Yes, she told me she'd gotten into the and I'm
trying to remember what exactly happened that Duncan had touched
her down there.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
She went on to explain the alleged incident, which was
inappropriate touching, not intercourse, and how she told the little
girl they should tell a woman from the Department of
Families what happened, but she was concerned about getting Duncan
in trouble. She also handed over the girl's nightgown and
underpants to a family services officer, which police later tested.
(23:30):
The next witness was a female police officer who interviewed
the alleged victim and another girl who was sleeping in
the bed during one of the alleged incidents. The videos
of those interviews were plagued for the jury. Then the
girl who claimed she was assaulted was called to the
witness stand. After a brief set of questions from the prosecutor, Duncan,
(23:52):
Grover's lawyer, mister Darvill, began his cross examination, asking the
girl if she put Grover's hand between her legs when
he was asleep, to which she replied yes. When asked why,
she said, I don't know. Please note our voice actor
for the young girl is an adult.
Speaker 12 (24:11):
And he took his hand out.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Is that right? Yes?
Speaker 12 (24:14):
And said what are you doing?
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yes?
Speaker 12 (24:18):
Well, why did you put his hand between your legs?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
I don't know.
Speaker 12 (24:23):
Well he took his hand away, didn't he?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yes?
Speaker 12 (24:27):
And he said to you do you like doing that?
Or words like that? He said to you yes, and
you said yes, yes, And he said to you that
you shouldn't do that. Is that right?
Speaker 6 (24:38):
Yes?
Speaker 12 (24:38):
And he said you shouldn't do that. You know by
doing that sort of thing, you'll get us both in trouble,
big trouble if you do that.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yes.
Speaker 12 (24:46):
And that's all that happened that night, wasn't it.
Speaker 6 (24:49):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
The defense lawyer then asked her about the previous alleged
incident one year prior.
Speaker 12 (24:54):
And mister Grover didn't do anything that night, did he?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
No?
Speaker 12 (24:58):
He didn't touch you.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
He no.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
It appears the little girl is now saying Duncan did
nothing wrong. The prosecutor, mister Priestley, tried to work out
if or how her story had changed.
Speaker 9 (25:11):
You talked about Duncan's penis and some gooey stuff. Do
you remember that?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yes?
Speaker 9 (25:16):
Now, mister Darvell has asked you some questions about the
same night, and he asked you specifically, and you said
yes to him about taking Duncan's arm and putting it
between your legs. Do you understand they sound like two
different stories?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yes? I do understand.
Speaker 9 (25:32):
Can you tell us what happened that night?
Speaker 12 (25:35):
I forget about that night?
Speaker 9 (25:36):
And did anything happen during that nights? After the pushing
and shoving, after you got back into the bed. Yes,
what happened?
Speaker 12 (25:44):
He touched me?
Speaker 9 (25:45):
Who touched you, Duncan? Where did he touch you on
my pants? On the inside or outside of your pants?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Outside?
Speaker 9 (25:52):
And did the front or back of your pants or
the side of your pants front? And how did he
touch you at the front of the pants He rubbed.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Me with his finger.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
At this point, Duncan, Grover's lawyer argues that the girl's
story has changed, so the charges.
Speaker 12 (26:07):
Should be dropped. In my submission, this really is a
case where there should be consideration given as to whether
it goes on your honor, bearing in mind that this
young girl isn't sworn, who is not corroborated, has now
given wildly contradictory evidence compared with her original records of interview.
The other thing in relation to the so called guey
(26:29):
stuff was that she did say that she thought it
was on the dressing gown, and of course that's.
Speaker 10 (26:35):
Gather the evidence will be that there was no.
Speaker 12 (26:38):
There was no semen on the dressing gown.
Speaker 10 (26:40):
Look, I think probably technically there is a case to answer.
It would be technically open to the jury to ignore
entirely what's taken place here today, and except beyond reasonable
doubt what said in the interviews, basically that he touched
her on the vagina on the first occasion outside her pants,
(27:02):
and touched her on the vagina inside her pants on
the second occasion. But I would have thought that even
if the jury were to convict, in the circumstances of
the way the case has unfolded, I would have thought
the Court of Appeal would set aside any conviction on
the basis that it was unsafe and unsatisfactory.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
The prosecutor came back after a break and informed the
court he would not pursue the charges of unlawful and
indecent dealing against Duncan Grover.
Speaker 10 (27:33):
This was a case in which a young child made
serious allegations of sexual misconduct against the citizen. It's not
a case it might be true, it might not be true.
It's not a case of it might even probably be true.
I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the case, but our law
provides that a person may only be convicted of a
(27:56):
criminal offense if the truth of the allegation is proved
beyond any reasonable doubt. And the difficulty with young is
that on one occasion she said mister Grover did something.
When her allegations were tested in cross examination by mister Darvill,
she said, no, it didn't happen. And I can tell
(28:19):
you I'd listened carefully because it's my responsibility to ensure
that witnesses are treated fairly, and I was conscious of
observing making sure that mister Darvill framed his questions in
such a way that she clearly would understand them, so
that there's no suggestion of intimidation or anything like that.
(28:43):
So in the end result you were left in the
situation where there really was no evidence to assist you
in deciding, well, was she telling the truth when she
was speaking to Senior Comfortable Griffith's on the tape, or
was she telling the truth when mister Darvill cross examined her,
and she said nothing happened. And you would not possibly
(29:06):
be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt of mister Grover's guilt unless
you could be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that when
she said he did something to her, such as particularly
on the vagina, that that was true. So, as I said,
in the end, it was the Director of Prosecution's final
(29:27):
decision not to proceed with these charges. But for what
it's worth, I agree with that decision because it would
be a dreadful thing if a man who might well
be innocent was found guilty of serious criminal offenses. So,
mister Grover, you are discharged so far as this indictment
is concerned. Ladies and gentlemen, you are discharged so far
(29:50):
as this case is concerned.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
To be very clear, we are not questioning Duncan Grover's
guilt or innocace. He has not been convicted of any offense,
and we are not accusing him of any wrongdoing. The
reason we are including this is because we discovered the
transcript in the state archives when we were researching Gwen's
ex husband. As you've heard, Gwen took her young boys
(30:16):
and drove from Cans to Boglebry after discovering Duncan was
having an affair with her friend Bet, who is today
still married to Duncan.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
Well.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
The information in those files was both sickening and appalling,
and I think we need to keep in mind here
that both Duncan Grover and his partner Bet Grover were
so outspoken about Gwen and so quick to emphasize imaginary
(30:48):
character flaws and anything that they possibly could do to
belittle her and to ruin her character in any way.
And yet here we have on the flip side of it,
the old saying goes, people in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Irang Duncan to let him know that we would be
running part of the transcript of this court case in
the podcast. I advised him he didn't need to provide
a response, as we would be including details as to
why the case was thrown out. But Sue and her
sister Irene have their own opinions, and as you would
know from previous episodes, neither were fans of their sister's
(31:26):
former husband prior to this information coming to light.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
I mean, it's very easy for people to sit back
and say whatever they want about Gwen now because she
can't defend herself.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
She can't speak, and unfortunately for.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Someone who's listening to that podcast for the first time
picks up a newspaper and reads about her, that's the
only thing they know about Gwen.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
They don't know what the real Gwen was like. They
don't know Gwen the.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Way I knew her, the way Irene knew her. All
they know is what these people want the world to believe,
and I can assure you what they are saying is
not the real Gwen, and I think that we need
to demonstrate that their character has a lot of flaws,
and their character has a lot of questions around it.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
What we do know for sure is Gwen's ex partner,
Ken Soper, who she'd just broken up with before her death,
was a convicted pedophile, and he was never considered a
person of interest in Gwen's death even during the cold
case investigation. This is reflected in the findings where coroner
(32:41):
narrator Wilson stated that Ken Soper was never a suspect,
but he should have been, and there is enough new
information that provides doubt beyond the balance of probabilities that
Gwen shot herself in the car on the side of
the road forty years ago. There is a lot going
(33:03):
on that we can't tell you about just yet, but
we can say that there is a concerted effort to
ensure that this time justice can take its course. Sue's
concerns about the police investigations and the coronial inquest into
a sister's death have resulted in major breakthroughs detailed in
the first ten episodes of this podcast, many of which
(33:25):
were not part of the Inquest.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
So at the end of the Inquest in twenty twenty one,
when the police all gathered around mister Kinmacker and they
all shook hands and clapped and cheered and slapped each
other on the back and congratulated each other on an
amazing job.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
And I still to this day am.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Completely confused about what they were congratulating him and congratulating
themselves for. When all we went to the inquest to
do was to try and seek justice for Gwen and
find out.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
What actually took place.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
But when we walked out of here with the sound
of their cheers and backslapping still ringing in my ears,
as I was walking to the elevator, I made a
vow to myself that I will never stop fighting this.
I will never stop fighting to get justice for Gwen.
I will never stop fighting to clear her name, and
I will never give up. So, in a strange twist
(34:26):
of fate and in a very odd kind of way,
I guess ed Kinbacker is really responsible for what happens
from now on, because it's been through his management of
the case and the behavior of him and his colleagues
right from the early days right through and to present day.
That's given me the drive and the motivation that I've
(34:48):
needed to continue this fight for Gwen.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
In the shadows of the courthouse, where Sue hopes to
have a sister's death properly examined, she recommits herself to Gwen.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
I love you as much today as I ever have,
and I will never stop fighting for you.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I will never ever stop fighting for you.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Back on Lake Street, just down the road from the
house where local man Craig Locke lived when he found Gwen,
her memorial continues.
Speaker 13 (35:25):
Thanks again everyone for being here.
Speaker 7 (35:28):
Thank you, it's a very important to day. And as
a can community leader, Sue, thank you for reaching out
and sharing Gwen's story. And you know, Gwen is very
much a part of our history here in Cans and
to think that, you know, we're at the very site
(35:50):
that her life was taken. And to the Cans hockey Field,
I'm so grateful that they've agreed that the Clark can
remain on their fence. And to the Cans Regional Counsel
who have allowed a tree to be planted in Gwen's honor,
which we will be able to nurture and watch that
(36:13):
grow over time. And to you and your sister Irene
and the rest of your family, I can only imagine
the pain in your hearts and I admire you both
so very much for your grit and determination and making
sure that Gwen is never forgotten and fighting to understand exactly.
Speaker 13 (36:37):
Why getting much.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
A plaque commemorating Gwen reads no time to say our
last goodbye, but in our hearts you will never die.
It is time to unveil the memorial.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
The reason we hear today and thank you so much
everyone for awyr support and for coming out on a beautiful,
very warm Cans morning, is we're putting a memorial park
on the fence to as an everlasting tribute to Gwen.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
This is the spot in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Three where she was found in her car, and to
date there's been no memorial marking any recognition of that.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So as part of our.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Ongoing journey and fight for justice Borgwen, we're putting a
park on the fence today in memory of her name.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
But I'm hoping that.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
This will also act as a shining light, if you like,
to other families out there who may be going through
similar things but not nowhere to turn or not have
the strength to keep fighting. And I would urge anyone
that feels that there's been an injustice to their families
or to a loved one to please do if you
(38:03):
possibly can, take up the fight, because Martin Luther King
once said, an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere, and
I firmly believe that if we don't speak up for
our loved ones, no one else will, and they'll just
become another forgotten statistics. So the memorial is about when today,
(38:24):
but it's also about all the other families out there,
all the other victims who.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Have become.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
A faithless victim, if you like, left behind by the
system and have had no one to.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Speak for them.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
So I urge anyone out there today after we've finished
the memorial service, if they feel that they have the
strength to keep fighting, to keep fighting for their loved ones,
and to never stop fighting until they get the answers
and get the justice.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
That is so rightly deserved.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
So we'll unveil the clerk now. This is the last
bote that I ever took a gwhen, so we've got
it on here today as well.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Thank you everyone.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
I'm a loving memory of our sister, and as it says,
we had.
Speaker 13 (39:13):
No time to say our laves goodbye, been in our hearts.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
Shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot au,
(40:16):
or leave us an anonymous tip at Shotinthdark dot com
dot au. If this podcast has raised issues for you,
please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them
at www dot lifeline dot org dot au. This podcast
(40:38):
is brought to you by me presenter and journalist Alison Sandy.
If you like what you're hearing, please rate and review
our podcast. It helps other listeners find us special thanks
to my writer, producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's sister and Tireless
(40:59):
campaigner forts Sue Cole, sound designer Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford.
Before our theme music is by Bob Kronk the First
and there is a link to his music on Spotify
in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
When Away Such Swoll
Speaker 1 (41:24):
The Pains and Shot in the Dark is a seven
news production,
This podcast contained sensitive and disturbing information, as well as
details relating to an alleged suicide. We urge anyone struggling
with their emotions to contact Lifeline on one three one
four or visit them at www dot lifeline dot org
(00:20):
dot AU.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Why can't we.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Find out what happened?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Why won't anyone help us? It was not suicide. There
was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Shot in the Dark Episode eleven.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Well, as I was saying earlier, I certainly never there'd
be a referendum or a war in Israel.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Today when I organize.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
This, we are on Lake Street in Cannes, at the
spot where forty years ago Gwen Grover was found lifeless
and clutching a rifle tightly in her right hand. It
is right here that Gwen's life and her reputation were
lost thanks to a police investigation that immediately and only
(01:27):
assumed she was both victim and perpetrator. Sue is tying
a special number of ribbons to the branches of the
tree planted by Cannes City Council in memory of Gwen.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Thirty two, and that was the age that Gwen was
when she was taken from us. So we've got one
for every year of her life up until then.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Sue's been practically preparing for Gwen's fortieth anniversary since we
were here last year recording the podcast. Since air, the
Kansas City Council planted a tree here in tribute to Gwen,
whose death was so poorly handled.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
It feels surreal, And as I was saying to someone yesterday,
whenever I come to cans, I'm very conscious that this
is the place where Green was taken from us. And
it's always constantly on my mind that when she moved
back here, she asked me to come with her, and
I didn't because I was a teenage girl at the
(02:28):
time and I had.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
A job and a boyfriend and.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Well the usual stuff that goes on in your life
at that stage.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So she came back here on her.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Own, and it's weighed on my mind every day since
that if I'd been here with her, she would probably
still be with us today because we did everything together well.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Sue isn't allowed to talk candidly about the significant developments
that have occurred in the months leading up to this point.
She is much more confident her sister's death won't continue
to be regarded as a suicide.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Since we've really started delving into the case, and you've
done your investigations as well, we now know that there's
absolutely no evidence that.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Points to the finding of suicide.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
We now have enough evidence to thoroughly and completely appeal
those findings and have those findings overturned.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
So the p.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I'm did Reford.
Speaker 6 (03:32):
I'm retired now, but I did serve four terms on
the local ken City Council and we came to Keynes
around the time that this very tragic episode took place.
I've been a survivor of domestic violence myself from my
very early marriage, and I just knew that women had
(03:53):
to stand up for themselves.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So I was involved in setting up.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
The Domestic Violence Service and we've been looking after women
and children and some men in this whole region for
over twenty years. The reason that I'm not talking so
well is that I was joked and have had permanent
damage to my voice box and my throat earlier.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Deardry Ford is a local powerhousing cans a survivor of
domestic violence. She still works to help survivors today and
is due after the memorial to help a woman move
to a new home.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
There are the twenty four hour helplines for everybody, including men. Really,
just make the move. Just realize, for your children and yourself,
you don't have to put up with this.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
This isn't right.
Speaker 6 (04:52):
Nobody expects you to put up with things. I'm a
divorced Catholic, so for me that was difficult. But this
is a caring, loving God. He doesn't want you to
stay in this situation. I think it's wonderful that the
family have just been there. She's been like a dog
with a bone. And that's a funny expression, I know,
but it means so much to that family, and it's
(05:15):
also part of their healing. I think that they're going
to try and seek justice where they can.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Hello y'all, and so lovely to finally, thank you so
much for your support.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh my pleasure.
Speaker 7 (05:31):
You're an amazing woman, amazing you're grit and determination.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yes, who support from people like you, I've been able
to keep going.
Speaker 7 (05:41):
And people like you to be flying the flag and
raising issues and not walking away when it.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Gets too hard. Well I certainly might be doing that.
Speaker 7 (05:50):
My name is your Londient. I am the LMP candidate
for Cans. I'm also the CEO of Wills of Wellness,
which is a charity that provide it's primary health care
to people who are homeless, sleeping rough and I also
have an organization called Empowering Women Empowering Communities. Very very
emotional and very difficult to think that we were standing
(06:13):
on a spot where a woman died forty years ago.
I have so much respect for Sue. She has a
grit and a determination that I think most people at
some stage would have walked away from what it is
that she's doing. And for that she has my full
support because we need people like Sue and others who
(06:37):
are flying that flag, who are champiing an issue. And
it's usually those people where that issue has impacted them.
And some people might argue they're a squeaky wheel or
a broken record, but the only way you can affect
change is by raising an issue and keep talking about it.
(06:58):
Here we are forty years later with the Cans hockey
Field saying yep, please put a plaque on our fence,
let us remember your sister. The Cans Regional Council have
allowed a tree to be planted in honor and memory
of Gwen. Our community has not forgotten Gwen and we
will always open our arms to Sue because Gwen is
(07:22):
a part of our story and a part of our history.
Speaker 8 (07:25):
I met Sue Cole on the set of a program
seeking Joys.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Sue reunites with Terry Irving, whom she met on the
SBS Insight program earlier this year. Terry spent five years
in jail for an armed robbery he did not commit.
One of the detectives on the case was Ed Kimbacker.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
I can only talk about my involvement with at Kingbacker,
which began thirty years ago, and I found him to
be a man who's very fixated on getting a result.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Terry went all the way to the High Court to
win his freedom in the nineteen nineties. Since then, Queensland
police have consistently said they've made reforms to improve things
for people like him.
Speaker 8 (08:09):
I disagree. I disagree. There's a system of protecting police
in Queensland that goes back well beyond for Jokie Peterson.
I believe now that they run right over whatever it
is that they wanted to do. They have a close bond.
They are investigated by their fellow police officers in the
(08:30):
Criminal Justice Commission. They are exempt if they not to
participate in a criminal investigation, they have an option of
choosing a disciplinary investigation. At present, there's over a thousand
police and public servants who have avoided investigation due to
the fact that they've resigned while they're on sick leave
(08:53):
while under investigation for a disciplinary matter.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
That is wrong.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Just to clarify, haven't been able to verify the figures
provided by mister Irving, but are aware that many disciplinary
proceedings do cease if an employee resigns. According to the
Australian Public Service Commission guidelines, it's at the discretion of
the employer to make a decision as to whether the
investigation continues.
Speaker 8 (09:19):
It's incredible, it is incredible, and anything is incredible means
that lacks credibility. And for any story that has come
out and pursued or put forward by the Cans Police,
I think is wrong. It needs to be inquired. I
just find them unbelievable, and that is not a compliment.
(09:43):
I think the evidence that Sue and the podcast have
been able to own Carver indicates that it definitely was
not a suicide. I think she's a champion. I believe
it's an expression of true love when somebody sacrifices forty
years of their lives in the memory and the belief
(10:04):
in someone they love so dearly is admirable.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
In a lovely surprise, more new faces appear to remember
Gwen Heather Stewart.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
So we live up on the tablelands and follow the podcast.
So I just thought we'd come down and show it to.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Support Taniel Jenkins and I'm Heather's mother and she put
me onto the podcast and yeah, so I've been following
it and wanted to.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, like Heather said, show support.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Heather and Tanya join Sue, her sister Irene and a
small group on the roadside. The occasional passers by have
no idea what is going on. When we launched Shot
in the Dark in February this year, QPS was still
smarting from a report following a Commission of Inquiry which
(10:52):
revealed a culture of bad behavior.
Speaker 7 (10:55):
A badge of dishonor sexism, racism, bullying, apathy.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
There are some deep seated cultural issues.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
These were exactly the issues identified by this podcast and
referred by the Police Minister Mark Ryan to Queensland's Crime
and Corruption Commission or Triple C. One of the inquiries
most significant recommendations was to establish a civilian police integrity
Unit in the Triple C within eighteen months to deal
(11:26):
with all complaints against officers.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Government will absolutely implement whatever recommendations.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
That still hasn't happened. Currently, police investigate their own, but
the Triple C can cherry pick referrals of police corruption
allegations for investigation.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
We're at the Cans Courthouse, which is centrally located in
Cans and this is where Gwen's inquest was held in
twenty twenty one. It's quite an imposing intimiday building, as
I'm sure they're intended to be, particularly for people who've
never had anything to do with the court process before.
(12:08):
So being back here today it brings back a whole
brain of emotions and memories, as you can imagine, most
of them unpleasant.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Just to refresh your memory. Our investigation to that point
revealed that any information other than that pointing to suicide
was completely overlooked by investigating officers at the time of
Gwen's death. Similarly, cold case officers who did their own
investigation into Gwen's death prior to the twenty twenty one
(12:45):
inquest ignored evidence, raising the possibility that Gwen was murdered.
This was corroborated by documents we obtained under right to
information laws. Eventually, the Triple C confirmed it would not
instigate this matter, saying it wasn't within its jurisdiction.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
I followed up with the Triple C asking if the
Triple C would investigate the disrespectful and well, there's no
other word for it, discussing emails that were sent around
that I received underwrite the information where they were speaking
about Gwen and the most disrespectful and dreadful terms, And
(13:30):
the Triple C came back to me. And initially after
many weeks of inquiries and then many months of inquiries,
the only contact I have with them was a staff
member there rang me up and complained bitterly for twenty
five minutes about how much work I'd given them. So
when we eventually got that sorted out, she then said
(13:52):
to me that she didn't believe that the emails were
directed at Gwen, and I said, well, I don't understand
how you've come to that conclusion, because it's clear that
they were discussing Gwen, and it's clear that from the
tone of the emails that they were doing everything that
they possibly could to denigrate Gwen's character and dismiss her,
(14:13):
as they do with so many other victims of crime.
So I then asked for an internal review of their decision, which.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
More months later came back.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
The internal review said that they didn't have any concerns
about what had taken place, So I then asked for
an external review. The external review eventually came back saying
there was no problem with the internal review. So I've
now asked for an external review of the external review.
But during all this process, somewhere along the way, in
(14:47):
one of the many letters, they stated that it.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Wasn't the concern.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Of the Triple C that it was actually to be
handed back. If I had any issues at all, that
I should go back to the q Now, asking the
QPS to investigate the QPS is completely futile, as we've
seen from past events.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So I then reached out to the Police Minister.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Mark Ryan again because he actually spoke out on television
in a report with Channel seven when those emails about
when were first aired, and he made it very clear
that he did not accept those emails and that he
expected the highest level of professionalism from his staff.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
However, when I send.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
Him back an email asking him, you know, could he
please help me, basically because the Triple C had washed
the hands of the entire situation. His office came back
with a response saying that it wasn't an issue to
be dealt with by him, that it was to be
dealt with by the Triple C. So, like so many
families before me, and I'm sure so many families moving forward,
(15:54):
we get caught in this.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Vicious cycle of.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
One government depart sending us to another government department, who
then sends us back to the original government department, purely
and simply because no one wants to take accountability and
nobody wants to take any action. And I'm sure they
think that if they stall families for long enough, and
they basically bamboozle us with the bureaucracy, we'll all just
(16:22):
go away and leave them alone. But I'm afraid that's
not going to be the case with me.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
We approached Triple C chairman Bruce Barber for an interview.
We were knocked back, but a spokesperson said according to
the Crime and Corruption Act of twenty twenty one, complaints
about the conduct of officers were a matter for QPS. However,
mister Barber told a Parliamentary Estimates hearing in August that quote,
(16:52):
effective independent oversight was essential for the handling of police
complaints and the system needed to be enhanced in a statement,
we were advised this.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
Generally speaking, the Triple C only investigates complaints of corrupt
conduct which contain allegations of a serious or systemic nature.
There is no one factor in the assessment of complaints
about police or the assessment of any complaint, because complaints
vary in their nature and the conduct alleged in each
complaint varies. An experienced team of Triple C officers assesses
(17:25):
each complaint received to determine if the complaint is within
the Triple C's jurisdiction, if it requires investigating, and if so,
whether the Triple C or another agency conducts the investigation.
The Triple C considers the legislative principles for how it
should perform its corruption function. This includes if public interest
and public confidence requires the Triple C to investigate a matter,
(17:47):
as well as the capacity of an agency when it
refers the matter to them to deal with. You can
view these at Section thirty four of the Crime and
Corruption Act two thousand and one.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Put simply, the Triple C doesn't have the resources to
handle routine police misconduct claims. Alleged bias, oversight, or neglect
in investigations is not considered serious corruption, even if it
can be proven. An example of serious corruption would be
paying bribes with brown paper bags stuffed with cash, basically
(18:21):
something equivalent to what led to the Fitzgerald Inquiry. For
those not aware of the Fitzgerald Inquiry, it occurred in
the nineteen eighties, leading to massive reforms and changed to
the policing and political landscape. It also took the scalps
of Police Commissioner Terry Lewis, who was convicted of corruption,
(18:42):
jailed and stripped of his knighthood, and former Premier Sir
Joe Blki Pedisen. The Triple C was formed off the
back of it, although originally it was titled the Crime
and Justice Commission or the CJC, then the Crime and
Misconduct Commission the CMC, before realization that they couldn't possibly
(19:03):
handle such a massive workload in terms of misconduct. However,
Barbara agrees someone independent needs to investigate police misconduct, but
it must be significantly resourced and funded. We've acquired court
(19:28):
documents about a District Court trial held in April two
thousand two involving Gwen's former husband. The trial was the
Queen versus Duncan Grover. For legal reasons, we want to
point out right now that this trial was abandoned during
the questioning of witnesses. You will see why. But up
(19:52):
to that point we learned about aw full allegations made
against Duncan Grover, which are still relevant even if they
were part of a trial. Well that was discontinued. New
laws just announced in Queensland provide the right for journalists
to now name accused sex offenders unless there is a
non publication order in place. Subsequently, media was able to
(20:15):
reveal the name of Australia's worst accused pedophile, former childcare worker,
Ashley Griffith, who has more than sixteen hundred charges laid
against him. To be clear, Duncan Grover is not a
sex offender. Accusations against him were never substantiated. However, even
(20:36):
the fact this trial occurred after a complaint found its
way to police, who lay charges which were then put
forward to the prosecution by the DPP, is pertinent to
our investigation. Given the way information is often used against people,
particularly in small communities and from our experience how key
(20:56):
witnesses identified by true crime podcasts can sumptime times get
cold feet. Can Soper is no longer living, but there
are plenty of other people who stand to lose face
if proof is unearthed that he was involved in the
death of Gwen Grover. We're using voice actors reading from
(21:18):
the court transcript. Here is prosecutor, mister Priestley.
Speaker 9 (21:23):
If you're on a please there is one indictment before
the court charging Duncan Roy Grover with two counts of
indecent treatment of a child or of the age of
twelve years. I asked that he be arraigned on those charges.
Speaker 10 (21:37):
Under twelve in care.
Speaker 9 (21:39):
Is that right, Yes, your honor.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Duncan Roy Grover was charged with two counts of unlawfully
and indecently dealing with a twelve year old girl between
February two thousand and August two thousand and one in Cans.
He pleaded not guilty. A jury was impaneled and the
trial got underway. The first witness was a woman the
(22:03):
foster care for the alleged victim. She says she picked
the girl up after she stayed at the Grover's house
for a sleepover with her friend.
Speaker 11 (22:11):
We were just bathing and said something like she went
kind of shy, and she said something like, if I
tell you something, will you not say anything to anybody?
And I sort of thought at the time she'd probably
just done something a bit naughty, and I said, I
agreed that I wouldn't tell anybody, And she said when
(22:31):
I was at house, she said, Duncan touched me down there,
and she gestured to her vaginal area, which was a
bit of a shock. And I asked her, well, how
did that happen? And she told me that she'd been
asleep and she'd woken up with a bad dream, and
she'd gone into Duncan's room and he said that she
could hop into bed with him.
Speaker 10 (22:51):
And just try to tell us the conversation as accurately
as you can remember it.
Speaker 11 (22:58):
Yes, she told me she'd gotten into the and I'm
trying to remember what exactly happened that Duncan had touched
her down there.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
She went on to explain the alleged incident, which was
inappropriate touching, not intercourse, and how she told the little
girl they should tell a woman from the Department of
Families what happened, but she was concerned about getting Duncan
in trouble. She also handed over the girl's nightgown and
underpants to a family services officer, which police later tested.
(23:30):
The next witness was a female police officer who interviewed
the alleged victim and another girl who was sleeping in
the bed during one of the alleged incidents. The videos
of those interviews were plagued for the jury. Then the
girl who claimed she was assaulted was called to the
witness stand. After a brief set of questions from the prosecutor, Duncan,
(23:52):
Grover's lawyer, mister Darvill, began his cross examination, asking the
girl if she put Grover's hand between her legs when
he was asleep, to which she replied yes. When asked why,
she said, I don't know. Please note our voice actor
for the young girl is an adult.
Speaker 12 (24:11):
And he took his hand out.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Is that right? Yes?
Speaker 12 (24:14):
And said what are you doing?
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yes?
Speaker 12 (24:18):
Well, why did you put his hand between your legs?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
I don't know.
Speaker 12 (24:23):
Well he took his hand away, didn't he?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yes?
Speaker 12 (24:27):
And he said to you do you like doing that?
Or words like that? He said to you yes, and
you said yes, yes, And he said to you that
you shouldn't do that. Is that right?
Speaker 6 (24:38):
Yes?
Speaker 12 (24:38):
And he said you shouldn't do that. You know by
doing that sort of thing, you'll get us both in trouble,
big trouble if you do that.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yes.
Speaker 12 (24:46):
And that's all that happened that night, wasn't it.
Speaker 6 (24:49):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
The defense lawyer then asked her about the previous alleged
incident one year prior.
Speaker 12 (24:54):
And mister Grover didn't do anything that night, did he?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
No?
Speaker 12 (24:58):
He didn't touch you.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
He no.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
It appears the little girl is now saying Duncan did
nothing wrong. The prosecutor, mister Priestley, tried to work out
if or how her story had changed.
Speaker 9 (25:11):
You talked about Duncan's penis and some gooey stuff. Do
you remember that?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yes?
Speaker 9 (25:16):
Now, mister Darvell has asked you some questions about the
same night, and he asked you specifically, and you said
yes to him about taking Duncan's arm and putting it
between your legs. Do you understand they sound like two
different stories?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yes? I do understand.
Speaker 9 (25:32):
Can you tell us what happened that night?
Speaker 12 (25:35):
I forget about that night?
Speaker 9 (25:36):
And did anything happen during that nights? After the pushing
and shoving, after you got back into the bed. Yes,
what happened?
Speaker 12 (25:44):
He touched me?
Speaker 9 (25:45):
Who touched you, Duncan? Where did he touch you on
my pants? On the inside or outside of your pants?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Outside?
Speaker 9 (25:52):
And did the front or back of your pants or
the side of your pants front? And how did he
touch you at the front of the pants He rubbed.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Me with his finger.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
At this point, Duncan, Grover's lawyer argues that the girl's
story has changed, so the charges.
Speaker 12 (26:07):
Should be dropped. In my submission, this really is a
case where there should be consideration given as to whether
it goes on your honor, bearing in mind that this
young girl isn't sworn, who is not corroborated, has now
given wildly contradictory evidence compared with her original records of interview.
The other thing in relation to the so called guey
(26:29):
stuff was that she did say that she thought it
was on the dressing gown, and of course that's.
Speaker 10 (26:35):
Gather the evidence will be that there was no.
Speaker 12 (26:38):
There was no semen on the dressing gown.
Speaker 10 (26:40):
Look, I think probably technically there is a case to answer.
It would be technically open to the jury to ignore
entirely what's taken place here today, and except beyond reasonable
doubt what said in the interviews, basically that he touched
her on the vagina on the first occasion outside her pants,
(27:02):
and touched her on the vagina inside her pants on
the second occasion. But I would have thought that even
if the jury were to convict, in the circumstances of
the way the case has unfolded, I would have thought
the Court of Appeal would set aside any conviction on
the basis that it was unsafe and unsatisfactory.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
The prosecutor came back after a break and informed the
court he would not pursue the charges of unlawful and
indecent dealing against Duncan Grover.
Speaker 10 (27:33):
This was a case in which a young child made
serious allegations of sexual misconduct against the citizen. It's not
a case it might be true, it might not be true.
It's not a case of it might even probably be true.
I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the case, but our law
provides that a person may only be convicted of a
(27:56):
criminal offense if the truth of the allegation is proved
beyond any reasonable doubt. And the difficulty with young is
that on one occasion she said mister Grover did something.
When her allegations were tested in cross examination by mister Darvill,
she said, no, it didn't happen. And I can tell
(28:19):
you I'd listened carefully because it's my responsibility to ensure
that witnesses are treated fairly, and I was conscious of
observing making sure that mister Darvill framed his questions in
such a way that she clearly would understand them, so
that there's no suggestion of intimidation or anything like that.
(28:43):
So in the end result you were left in the
situation where there really was no evidence to assist you
in deciding, well, was she telling the truth when she
was speaking to Senior Comfortable Griffith's on the tape, or
was she telling the truth when mister Darvill cross examined her,
and she said nothing happened. And you would not possibly
(29:06):
be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt of mister Grover's guilt unless
you could be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that when
she said he did something to her, such as particularly
on the vagina, that that was true. So, as I said,
in the end, it was the Director of Prosecution's final
(29:27):
decision not to proceed with these charges. But for what
it's worth, I agree with that decision because it would
be a dreadful thing if a man who might well
be innocent was found guilty of serious criminal offenses. So,
mister Grover, you are discharged so far as this indictment
is concerned. Ladies and gentlemen, you are discharged so far
(29:50):
as this case is concerned.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
To be very clear, we are not questioning Duncan Grover's
guilt or innocace. He has not been convicted of any offense,
and we are not accusing him of any wrongdoing. The
reason we are including this is because we discovered the
transcript in the state archives when we were researching Gwen's
ex husband. As you've heard, Gwen took her young boys
(30:16):
and drove from Cans to Boglebry after discovering Duncan was
having an affair with her friend Bet, who is today
still married to Duncan.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
Well.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
The information in those files was both sickening and appalling,
and I think we need to keep in mind here
that both Duncan Grover and his partner Bet Grover were
so outspoken about Gwen and so quick to emphasize imaginary
(30:48):
character flaws and anything that they possibly could do to
belittle her and to ruin her character in any way.
And yet here we have on the flip side of it,
the old saying goes, people in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Irang Duncan to let him know that we would be
running part of the transcript of this court case in
the podcast. I advised him he didn't need to provide
a response, as we would be including details as to
why the case was thrown out. But Sue and her
sister Irene have their own opinions, and as you would
know from previous episodes, neither were fans of their sister's
(31:26):
former husband prior to this information coming to light.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
I mean, it's very easy for people to sit back
and say whatever they want about Gwen now because she
can't defend herself.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
She can't speak, and unfortunately for.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Someone who's listening to that podcast for the first time
picks up a newspaper and reads about her, that's the
only thing they know about Gwen.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
They don't know what the real Gwen was like. They
don't know Gwen the.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Way I knew her, the way Irene knew her. All
they know is what these people want the world to believe,
and I can assure you what they are saying is
not the real Gwen, and I think that we need
to demonstrate that their character has a lot of flaws,
and their character has a lot of questions around it.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
What we do know for sure is Gwen's ex partner,
Ken Soper, who she'd just broken up with before her death,
was a convicted pedophile, and he was never considered a
person of interest in Gwen's death even during the cold
case investigation. This is reflected in the findings where coroner
(32:41):
narrator Wilson stated that Ken Soper was never a suspect,
but he should have been, and there is enough new
information that provides doubt beyond the balance of probabilities that
Gwen shot herself in the car on the side of
the road forty years ago. There is a lot going
(33:03):
on that we can't tell you about just yet, but
we can say that there is a concerted effort to
ensure that this time justice can take its course. Sue's
concerns about the police investigations and the coronial inquest into
a sister's death have resulted in major breakthroughs detailed in
the first ten episodes of this podcast, many of which
(33:25):
were not part of the Inquest.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
So at the end of the Inquest in twenty twenty one,
when the police all gathered around mister Kinmacker and they
all shook hands and clapped and cheered and slapped each
other on the back and congratulated each other on an
amazing job.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
And I still to this day am.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Completely confused about what they were congratulating him and congratulating
themselves for. When all we went to the inquest to
do was to try and seek justice for Gwen and
find out.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
What actually took place.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
But when we walked out of here with the sound
of their cheers and backslapping still ringing in my ears,
as I was walking to the elevator, I made a
vow to myself that I will never stop fighting this.
I will never stop fighting to get justice for Gwen.
I will never stop fighting to clear her name, and
I will never give up. So, in a strange twist
(34:26):
of fate and in a very odd kind of way,
I guess ed Kinbacker is really responsible for what happens
from now on, because it's been through his management of
the case and the behavior of him and his colleagues
right from the early days right through and to present day.
That's given me the drive and the motivation that I've
(34:48):
needed to continue this fight for Gwen.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
In the shadows of the courthouse, where Sue hopes to
have a sister's death properly examined, she recommits herself to Gwen.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
I love you as much today as I ever have,
and I will never stop fighting for you.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I will never ever stop fighting for you.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Back on Lake Street, just down the road from the
house where local man Craig Locke lived when he found Gwen,
her memorial continues.
Speaker 13 (35:25):
Thanks again everyone for being here.
Speaker 7 (35:28):
Thank you, it's a very important to day. And as
a can community leader, Sue, thank you for reaching out
and sharing Gwen's story. And you know, Gwen is very
much a part of our history here in Cans and
to think that, you know, we're at the very site
(35:50):
that her life was taken. And to the Cans hockey Field,
I'm so grateful that they've agreed that the Clark can
remain on their fence. And to the Cans Regional Counsel
who have allowed a tree to be planted in Gwen's honor,
which we will be able to nurture and watch that
(36:13):
grow over time. And to you and your sister Irene
and the rest of your family, I can only imagine
the pain in your hearts and I admire you both
so very much for your grit and determination and making
sure that Gwen is never forgotten and fighting to understand exactly.
Speaker 13 (36:37):
Why getting much.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
A plaque commemorating Gwen reads no time to say our
last goodbye, but in our hearts you will never die.
It is time to unveil the memorial.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
The reason we hear today and thank you so much
everyone for awyr support and for coming out on a beautiful,
very warm Cans morning, is we're putting a memorial park
on the fence to as an everlasting tribute to Gwen.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
This is the spot in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Three where she was found in her car, and to
date there's been no memorial marking any recognition of that.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So as part of our.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Ongoing journey and fight for justice Borgwen, we're putting a
park on the fence today in memory of her name.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
But I'm hoping that.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
This will also act as a shining light, if you like,
to other families out there who may be going through
similar things but not nowhere to turn or not have
the strength to keep fighting. And I would urge anyone
that feels that there's been an injustice to their families
or to a loved one to please do if you
(38:03):
possibly can, take up the fight, because Martin Luther King
once said, an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere, and
I firmly believe that if we don't speak up for
our loved ones, no one else will, and they'll just
become another forgotten statistics. So the memorial is about when today,
(38:24):
but it's also about all the other families out there,
all the other victims who.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Have become.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
A faithless victim, if you like, left behind by the
system and have had no one to.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Speak for them.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
So I urge anyone out there today after we've finished
the memorial service, if they feel that they have the
strength to keep fighting, to keep fighting for their loved ones,
and to never stop fighting until they get the answers
and get the justice.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
That is so rightly deserved.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
So we'll unveil the clerk now. This is the last
bote that I ever took a gwhen, so we've got
it on here today as well.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Thank you everyone.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
I'm a loving memory of our sister, and as it says,
we had.
Speaker 13 (39:13):
No time to say our laves goodbye, been in our hearts.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Someone somewhere may know more about this case. Perhaps one
of our listeners may help find the information that reveals
the truth behind the death of Gwen Grover. If you
know something or have a suggestion, please email us at
Shot in the Dark at seven dot com dot au,
(40:16):
or leave us an anonymous tip at Shotinthdark dot com
dot au. If this podcast has raised issues for you,
please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them
at www dot lifeline dot org dot au. This podcast
(40:38):
is brought to you by me presenter and journalist Alison Sandy.
If you like what you're hearing, please rate and review
our podcast. It helps other listeners find us special thanks
to my writer, producer Brian Seymour, Gwen's sister and Tireless
(40:59):
campaigner forts Sue Cole, sound designer Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford.
Before our theme music is by Bob Kronk the First
and there is a link to his music on Spotify
in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
When Away Such Swoll
Speaker 1 (41:24):
The Pains and Shot in the Dark is a seven
news production,
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