Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contained sensitive and disturbing information, as well as
details relating to an alleged suicide. We urge anyone struggling
with their emotions to contact Lifeline on one three one
four or visit them at www dot lifeline dot org
(00:20):
dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Why can't we find out what happened? Why won't anyone
help us? It was not suicide, there was someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Shot in the Dark Episode fourteen. Hi Sue, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Hi? Alison? It's lovely to see you again.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
It's great to see you too. I mean, what a
journey we've been on and can you just advise me
as to the latest the latest correspondence you've had in
relation to getting a new inquest for Gwen.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yes, we have received a response from the State Coroner
and by our solicitors at Caxton Legal and the reply
has been that he's not granting us another inquest at
this stage. However, I've been speaking with Claire and the
(01:35):
door is not closed by any means.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
It's been a tense weight since the Brisbane District Court,
throughout the finding of suicide made by the former Queensland
Coroner Narrator Wilson, Judge Nathan Jarrow change it to an
open finding, including the possibility of homicide. Stop short of
ordering a new inquest due to the passage of time
(02:04):
since Gwen Grover's death in nineteen eighty three, the death
of key person of interest Gwen's former defacto partner Ken Soper,
and a lack of resources in the coroner's office. Finally,
Sue's lawyer, Claire Coles, heard from the office of State
Coroner Terry Ryan, who had made a decision on whether
(02:24):
or not to hold a new inquest which would include
all the new evidence discovered in this podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Dear Miss Coles, I refer to your correspondence of twenty
December twenty twenty four in relation to the tragic death
of Gwen Lorraine Grover and the recent decision of the
District Court of Queensland. I apologize for the delay in
responding to you. His honour declined to require that the
State Coroner, by himself or another coroner, reopened the inquest
(02:52):
into Miss Grover's death to re examine the findings or
hold a new inquest into her death as you are
aware of, the Coroner's Act establishes mechanisms for administrative review
of inquest outcomes, including a right to review inquest findings
or to reopen an inquest. Section fifty of the Coroner's
Act provides for the reopening of inquests either on application
(03:15):
to the State Coroner or District Court of Queensland. However,
pursuant to Section fifty sub section three of the Coroners Act,
a person may not apply to the State Coroner if
an unsuccessful application based on the same or substantially the
same grounds has already been made to the District Court. Consequently,
having regard to the submissions made on behalf of the
(03:37):
applicant and the order of the District Court of Queensland,
the State Coroner is precluded from reopening the coronial investigation
into Miss Grover's death.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Should any new evidence come forward in the future, we
can reapply again, and that's something that you know, I'm
hoping to address with you today if I can, you know,
sending out a message to ask if anyone does know
anything at this stage now to please come forward. We've
(04:13):
had Judge Jarrow's decision overruling narrator Wilson's suicide finding, so
we now know that you know, it's not only us,
but we've actually got a judge who agrees with us
that Gwen didn't die by suicide, that there was something
else that happened there that night. And I fully believe
(04:39):
that there's someone out there who knows what happened to Gwen.
I believe that ten Sober told someone. Ron Les once
said to me that they always tell someone. He said,
it doesn't matter who they are, they always tell someon
(05:00):
And I know that from speaking to Jerry Jerry Thornton
over the years, He's of the opinion as well. You know,
there would be someone who knows more and who hasn't
come forward, and this is the time for someone to
have the courage to speak up, like can SOPs gone now?
He can't hurt them anymore, And this is the opportunity
(05:23):
for someone to have the courage to step forward, and
not just for Gwen, but for all the other women
out there who are in similar situations. It's a situation
whereby I believe he would have spoken to someone and
he would have bragged about this. He wouldn't have been
able to help himself, like he wouldn't have spoken about
(05:44):
this out of remorse or guilt. He would have told
someone because he wanted to gloat about how he got
away with it. And you know, if that person, I mean,
they can remain anonymous, but if they could come forward
at some stage, that would mean the world not only
to us, but to a lot of other victims and
their families out there as well, because this is one
(06:07):
of the things that's happening. Olson like us. Not being
granted a second inquest was disappointing, but it was completely
not unexpected because we have to accept that we're dealing
with a system that doesn't protect the victims and their families.
(06:29):
It protects an organization that allows seenior members within that organization.
And I'm talking about the QPS now. And I'm sorry
if this is sounding judgmental, but this is based on
my experience and thousands of other people I've spoken to
since I started this journey with Gwen's case, and my
(06:51):
personal experience, as you know, has been that, you know,
there's individuals in highly paid public positions who, when they're
tasked with a case like Gwen's, rather than putting their
time and efforts into fully investigating that case, you know,
they choose to waste their valuable time on sending out
(07:13):
juvenile emails, you know, complete with childish emojis, denigrating Gwen,
denigrating the victims, and in any other organization that type
of behavior would surely not be tolerated.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So filed a complaint with the Crime and Corruption Commission
detailing alleged mishandling by qps's cold case team. This included
their apparent mocking of the case, operating on the presumption
that Gwen took her own life, deeply concerning derogatory comments
in emails, and engaging and sharing information about their case
(07:51):
with one of the key police officers they were supposed
to be investigating, retired Detective Ed Kinbacker, who your recall
was the young constable first on the scene after Gwen's
body was found and was part of the disgraceful and
bungled investigation. Also in early Jean Sue received a response
(08:12):
from Queensland Police.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Dear Susan Cole I refer your complaint to the Crime
and Corruption Commission that was subsequently referred to the Queensland
Police Service. The circumstances surrounding your allegations were reviewed by
the Ethical Standards Command Complaint Assessment Committee, comprising of senior
officers within the Command to ensure the committee is well informed.
The assessment process includes a comprehensive complaint briefing by a
(08:35):
senior complaint manager and intelligence officer who deliver a range
of material to be examined, including but not limited to,
police system records, intelligence holdings, witness statements, video surveillance, and
police body worn camera footage. With regards to the allegations
you raised, the Committee was satisfied the actions of the
officers involved were lawful and reasonable, and the allegations raised
(08:59):
were so reported by the materials examined during the assessment.
The committee also determined that police actions did not unduly
limit your human rights nor contravene the Charter of Victims' Rights. Therefore,
the Committee has established there is no evidence of disciplinable
conduct on the part of the officers involved, and no
further inquiries or investigations will be undertaken. As such, Ethical
(09:22):
Standards Command considers the matter finalized. Yours, sincerely, Complaint Assessment Committee,
Ethical Standards Command, COINS and Police Service.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
You'll notice that no one put their name to this
brief rejection of Sue's claims, nor any detail on how
they arrived at their decision in the face of compelling
documented evidence.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I know if I behave like that in my workplace,
there would be dire consequences. And I'm sure the saying
goes for most people out there. But within this organization,
you know, people can send out communication, you know, referring
to the case of a young mother who has died
of the particularly horrific violent death as a little treasure
(10:03):
given themselves. You know, pathetic nicknames like Elvis, like Elvis
left the building after they managed to powers a person
in Kansas. You know, questionable intelligence and even more questionable
morals to fabricate things about Gwen. And we know they
were fabricated because she was frequently tripping herself up during
the inquest and couldn't remember back some figures. But I mean,
(10:29):
it's not just about Gwen. Like in a similar vein,
I've recently read about a senior police officer who, after
observing a domestic violence rally, sent an email saying something about,
you know, all I can see here is a lot
of women sitting around and a lot of sandwich is
not being made. How can that sort of behavior be endorsed?
(10:52):
So it's little wonder that when we do try to
do things like get a fresh inquest, that you know
that our pleas and our calls for assistance are denied.
But the way I look at it, Alison, is that
you know, at the moment we may have lost the
battle of getting another inquest, but we've certainly won the
(11:14):
war from my perspective, because for the first time since
nineteen eighty three, gwenstep is no longer regarded as a suicide. So,
irrespective of how these members of the QPS have conducted themselves,
irrespective of their pathetic little attempts to defame Gwen, to
denigrate the dead, which surely has to be the lowest
(11:40):
form of cowardice, I'm exlandering people when they can no
longer defend themselves. I mean, once again, you know, one
really has to question the morals of these people. But
for the first time since nineteen eighty three, Gwensteap is
no longer a suicide, and no one can ever take
that from her or.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Fromas Obviously, the same criticism can and has been made
of Sue that by implicating Ken Soper and the death
of her sister Gwen, she is denigrating his character in
death when he is unable to defend himself. The key
difference is that Ken Soper had a lifetime to defend himself,
(12:22):
and he did. However, there were multiple variations of his story,
and he had hidden crimes like the conviction for child
sex abuse and physically violent behavior towards his first wife.
As far as we're concerned, the evidence points overwhelmingly in
one direction, and it's only thanks to Sue's courage and
(12:45):
persistence that the truth is finally being heard. It takes
a certain person who could do what you've done and
that push, that dedication, that resilience, and just ongoing persistence.
From that perspective, do you feel that it has helped
(13:07):
other women in Gwen's position?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I really hope so, Allison. And the reality is that
Gwen deserves so much more, and so to all these
other women. But this is the best that I've been
able to do for her. And once again, his heart's
back to the system that we're up against, and the
reality is this, if I can just bring it back
(13:30):
to can sober once again for a moment, If he
had been jailed in nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty two,
as he should have been for those charges that he
was found guilty of, there's a very good chance that
Gwen would still be alive today. He should have been
in prison, brutally and constantly bashing his second wife, the
(13:55):
threatening her with a rifle in amount, the sexually abusing
that little girl, But instead of that, he was allowed
walk free. Right is Harley Davidson around Cairns like a
local celebrity and continue to carry on his sorded affairs
with numerous other women, one of whom at least was
a police officer. And this is what I'm saying. You know,
(14:19):
if one of those women would just have the courage
to come forward, because leopards don't change their spots. I mean,
we know how he treated his second wife, we know
what he did to Gwen, and I have no doubt
that if I could find his first wife, she would
have a similar tale to tell. So this is what
we're up against. We're up against habitual offenders who are
(14:43):
not punished when they should be in the first instance.
And I fully understand that men like Ken Sober don't
walk around with you know, I'm a wife beating pedophile
added on their forests. They're everybody's best to mate. They're
a good blog. That's what everyone says about that. Oh
he's a good bloke, you know, he's everybody's best friend.
(15:06):
But the thing is that the police knew what he
was like. He was found guilty of these charges and
he was allowed walk free. Now this was over forty
years ago, Allison, but the same thing is happening today,
Like just last week there's a case you know, where
a very similar thing happened. So surely you know, on
(15:30):
a national scale, this has to be addressed. Like, it's
not just about Gwen, although of course Gwen is first
and foremost my concern. It's about the one woman every
four days in Australia who is meeting a similar fate
to Gwen. Like I have no doubt in my mind
that Gwen knew Sober was going to do something to
(15:52):
her that night. That's why she got her boys out
of the house and sent them to their fathers. I mean,
this is a man who trapped found his second wife
when she went moved from Cannes to Brisbane. He was
parked up the hill. He stalked her, parked up the
hill and the police had to put the house under
police guard. Now doesn't that say something? Doesn't that say
(16:16):
this man should have been in jail? I mean, if
he could do that, surely he could then find Gwen
three or four kilometers down the road. I mean, the
entire notion that was presented about oh, Sopa didn't know
where Gwen was, that is utter rubbish. She knew he
was coming for her, and that's why she got those
boys out of that house and told their father if
(16:37):
anything happened to her, look after the boys. And I'm
hearing this message over and over again today with women.
They know that these violent men are coming for them.
They do the very best that they can. They contact
the authorities, but at the end of the day, the
vast majority of them are left defend for themselves. Itself
(17:01):
has to be a huge travesty of justice, and that
in itself has to be something that gets addressed.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, absolutely, sir. And I guess if Ken Sopher was
still alive, I don't think there would be any choice
but to pursue this. But that said, I'm sure more
would have happened since then, which possibly would have seen
him behind bars again.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
For goodness sake, the Can's Post put him on the
front page when he died and said everybody liked him. No,
not everybody did. I didn't like him. You know, his
ex wife didn't like him, and I'm quite sure there's
a lot of other people around town that didn't like
him either, because he was known in his day to
be the sort of person who did not cross. He
(17:45):
was known to be a man who was violent and
who had no qualms whatsoever about getting mixed up in
borderline activities. But yet here's someone who was presented to
the community as a pillar of that community. And this
is where the dangel lies. And at the end of
the day, this is what families and they're victims are
(18:07):
up against. They're up against a system that protects these
in inverted commers, good blokes. They don't protect the women.
They protect the good blokes because how could they possibly
have done something like that.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But so now he will always have a black mark
against his name. He will never have that good standing,
that legacy that he believed he was leaving behind. And
that's because of the work that you did and the
persistence and the perseverance, and you know, it is really remarkable.
And you know, Nearrata Wilson now has a mark against
(18:43):
her career record in the sense that her inquest was overturned.
I mean that's astonishing, and it is really I'm just
so proud that I was able to be part of that.
With you.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I can only say again that you know, if there
is someone out there who knows something, now is the
time to speak up. I Mean, one of the things
that really hit at the core of me, you know,
in this case, is that when was betrayed by one
of the people who she loved the most, one of
(19:17):
the people who she protected and did everything within her
power to protect, she was betrayed and she was let
down by this person. But this is the thing that
we're up against, Like, we're up against people who, for
whatever reason, are either frightened to come forward or choose
not to come forward. I mean, Ken Sober was known
(19:39):
for having numerous women on the goal at the same time.
Like even if one of those women now before they
pass away, just see it in themselves to think, well,
he's not here anymore, he can't hurt me. I can
come forward and speak up on behalf of the young
women of today who were suffering a similar fate to
what I did over forty years ago. And that's that's
(20:00):
something that I'm hoping may happen in the future. Let's
look at the reality here. Ken Sober was with Gwen
for six months. Six months. I mean that's nothing, absolutely nothing,
like you know, you can't say that was a long
term relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Sue talks about how Ken Soaper started showing up at
family celebrations for Gwen's boys as they got older, such
as engagements, weddings, baby showers, and is reminded of Ken's
claim about why he and Gwen broke up over a
fight about his treatment of her son David.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
That was one version of Soper's stories. I mean, we
have to remember now that we had six versions of
these stories. Now, when Gwen first died, and back in
the early days, we heard nothing about this. All we
heard was that, you know, they had an argument and
he couldn't remember what it was thirty eight or thirty
nine years later, when David was also passed and could
(20:57):
no longer defend himself. So we've got Gwen who can't
defend her, We've got David who can't defand himself. We've
got this cowardly, you know, attack, slandering, denigrating of the dead,
rearing its head again. You know, Soper popped up and said,
oh wait a minute, I remember what that fight was about. Now.
It was because you know, David pushed in front of
his mother and went in the door first in inverted commas.
(21:19):
Look at what a great guy I am. I was
protecting his mother. You know, I was being the gentleman.
I was trying to teach this unruly childsome manners. I
sincerely doubt that. And I think, you know, this is
yet another story you made up to cove yourself, because
you know that David is no longer with us, and
he can't stand up and say, oh, wait a minute,
(21:39):
that's a load of garbage that never happened that night.
I honestly think that was just yet another one of
his many lies. And this really does point to the
character of the man. He was prepared to say and
do anything. He was prepared to lie under oath to
save his own skin and to make himself look like
(22:00):
a good bloke. You know that he was the hero
and the picture here, you know. But there's a lot
more can soapers out there, unfortunately, that are still getting
away with what he got away with.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Well, the fact is that you've been able to open,
hopefully the eyes to others who know that it's worth
fighting also learn the lessons that you've learned, because there
was a lot of things that happened. You trusted, like
so many others do, and you see it all the time,
and that's one thing that podcasts have really brought forward.
(22:33):
And even with Courtney Andersen's family, they kept being told
it was being handled, they were investigating, and then all
of a sudden, the coroner popped up and they and
this bloke hadn't even been charged with drug driving, which
he was. So it's just so, I guess that's the
whole thing. The case of Courtney Anderson is a reminder
(22:59):
that the same mistakes made in Gwen's death are still
being made more than thirty years later, Authorities yet again
jumping to a suicide finding without properly investigating. After public scrutiny,
the Attorney General announced Courtney Anderson's case would be re
examined in a coronial inquest. Courtney died last year when
(23:25):
she allegedly jumped out of a car doing eighty kilometers
an hour on the Bruce Highway near Gludstone. The car
was being driven by her partner, Ashley Campbell, who continued
for another one hundred meters before stopping he did not
perform CPR nor did he call emergency services. He tested
(23:45):
positive for both methamphetamine and cannabis. Queensland Police investigated and
found there wasn't enough evidence to charge Campbell with pushing
her out of the car. They handed their findings to
coroner David O'Connell, who agreed, like Gwen's case, it took
a relentless campaign by the family to have his decision
(24:07):
cast aside. So it just shows it's never too late.
And you know, make sure you do. You know, the
squeak you will gets oil, but make sure that you
keep fighting because you can't rely on what you're being
told if you have any fears, I guess, I mean,
what do you say to people that had lost a
(24:28):
loved one and we're banking on authorities to help them
and had doubts.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I say, never ever give up, Never give up, you know,
because Gwen's case is living proof of that. But I
think that they have to realize going in that this
is what they're going to be up against you. And
I can understand that some people are overwhelmed by you know,
there were times that I was overwhelmed as well, and
(24:54):
I was just so blessed if I can use this
word to have people like Jerry Thornton, to have you
and Ryan on my side, to have people supporting me,
you know, to have a loving husband and son, and
to have you know, my brother stand and my sister
Irene supporting me as well through this because it isn't
an easy battle. It isn't an easy battle. And every
(25:15):
time you just think you're taking a step forward, you
get knocked two steps back. And this is what they
rely upon. They rely upon the fact that if they
can beat the families down, we'll just go home and
sit in the corner and cry. And this is how
the system works. Either that or they think if they
string it out for long enough, everyone will die and
(25:37):
it'll be a waste of time. Well, we've already seen
that happen with Sober. I mean, sober'spike ended up under
a truck. How it ended up there is still a
matter of question for me. But I really do think
if they are going to fight for their loved ones,
and I would encourage everyone to fight for their loved ones.
Now they can't speak for themselves, they can't stand and
(26:00):
they can't protect themselves, they can't speak out against the
slander and the denigration and the gossip that goes on
about them. You know, they have to have a voice,
but they really do have to go into it knowing that,
you know, it's not going to be an easy ride.
And then the people that they think will help them
(26:21):
and think will help protect their loved one most of
the time, they're the people that you end up fighting against.
In the end.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Was it worth it all the pain?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Absolutely? I would do this one hundred times over again
for Gwen. And as I said in the beginning, Gwen
deserves so much more. She deserves so so much more.
And the thing that really tears at my heart is
that to a lot of people, the only thing they
know about when is what they've read in the media
(26:51):
reports now, or if you know, God forbid, they get
hold of those hearing notes from the coronial inquest and
they hear some of the things that were said about
it then. But my memories of her are as vivid
today as they were the day I was three years old,
And I remember my third birthday like it only happened
last week. And if I can just share this little
(27:13):
story with your quick boalace and like you know, we
came from a big family and money it was tight,
and my birthdays in the middle of winter. It was
a really cold winter that year. I remember this, and
Gwand had sent away for a little coke for me,
Like we didn't have internet shopping back then, but we
had mail order shopping. And I remember for some reason,
it actually arrived by post on the day of my birthday,
(27:35):
and I can remember walking alongside of Gwen down to
the mail box and they're taking this parcel out. I'm
get upset down, I'm sorry, but we were walking back
to the house and I'm saying to her, you know,
is that for me? Is that for me? Like three
year olds do? And she was saying, oh, no, this
is mine. This is not for you, this is for me,
and she unwrapped it and I've still got that little
(27:55):
coke today. It was this most beautiful little coat with
a fake fur collar. But this is the sort of
sister Gwen was. I mean, she was sixteen at the time,
she just started her first job, and rather than spend
her paycheck on herself, she spent it on me, her
little three year old sister. And she was like that
for her entire life, Like it didn't matter how tight
(28:19):
money was, she always gave. She was the first one
to offer to give to someone else. So a sister
like that, I mean, I would go through this a
million times a game for her. And this is the
thing that the ed Kinbackers and the Tara Campwells, and
if I may say so, the narrator Wilson's of the
world don't understand. They don't understand the love that the
(28:43):
family feel for some of these women. You know, there's
one of me in almost every family who would walk
through fire to do the best that they could for
their sister or their daughter, or their auntie or their
niece or whoever this person is, you know. I mean,
they may be holding the cards as far as the
legal system goes, but they're not holding the cards as
(29:05):
far as the love of the family goes, because most
of us will go through anything time and time again
to try and get some form of justice. However, poetry
for our loved ones.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
That's beautiful, sir, it really is, and it's so true.
And I'm so glad you said those things, because I
think that goes a long way for others, knowing what
other people still have to go through. I mean, It's
not that it's not completely over for you either, but
at least there is you know, there is a victory,
there is a you know, not even though David sadly
(29:39):
David wasn't here to see it, because I know it
would have meant something to him. I think it would
have meant a lot to him, because that is always
one of those things, right, and he would have had
that thought in his mind all his life. But it's
just really touching to know that, you know that it
was worth it because I know what you went through,
(30:01):
what was probably the hardest part, what was the most
you know, when did you feel the most I guess
downtrodden about you know that you had to rise up against.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
The hardest thing for me was after that inquest in Cans,
I mean, and it really was soul destroying and belief
destroying for me because I still naively thought the system
looks after the families, the system looks after the victims,
the good people win at the end of the day.
But when I had to sit in that courtroom for
(30:35):
two days and see those people get on the stand,
those people who were so clearly coached by members of
the police society, I mean, for goodness sake, like Ken
Soaper sat sigh to thigh with the members of the
cold case team. You know, for those entire two days.
It was just horrific. And seeing those people get up
(30:56):
on the stand and apologize to for the income edience
of them being there, and then seeing me get on
the standing it absolutely hammered for over two hours and
treated like I was a liar and I was someone
that was there to you know, denigrate can Soaper's good character.
That was the most horrific thing for me. I mean
(31:17):
it was flying home on the plane from Cans. I
was just sitting there thinking like it was almost surreal.
I was thinking like, how could this have possibly happened
in Australia in you know, this current day and age.
But you know, Allison, the thing is, I got up
the next morning and I got on the internet. I
(31:37):
didn't know what I was doing, but I got on
the internet and I started searching how to try and
go about getting an inquest over turn and it was
just like once again, you know, not only did we
have the blessing of you on Brian, but we had
the blessing of Claire Cole's and her team from Caxton
Legal Center who came on board, and I know it
(31:59):
was there job to defend us, but I know that
they really believed in Gwenna, believed in her case deep
down to and that is so so important. Like if
you've got legal representatives who don't believe in you, you know,
I really think that is sort of something that you know,
you need to try and overcome and make sure that
(32:19):
you try and get somebody who's on your side, because
just knowing that they were on Gwen's side meant so much.
You know, that's what every family needs, Like you've got
to have someone on your side. You've got to have
someone on your side, particularly when you're fighting up against
an inquest Slaga, a normal person like me, we don't
(32:40):
know what to do, We don't know the system, we
don't know where to start. So you've got to have
an expert to help sort of try and guide you
through the mind build that is the system today.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
And you didn't have any money. You had, you know,
the legal aid, which is great, and the Attorney General
did meet with you, which I think is important. I
know that there were a lot of places, a lot
of states where they're not given that courtesy. So despite
that really low low. Then there were some highs in
(33:12):
the sense that you weren't wasting your time.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Well, I was fortunate in that the man who is
now our state Premier was the leader of the opposition
at the time, and he intervened for me and got
the Attorney General, who was the opposing party's attorney general
at the time, to meet with me. I couldn't get
a meeting with the Attorney General. I wrote letter after
letter after letter and just basically got the brush off.
(33:35):
But David Chris Oppuley did stand up and he wrote
on my behalf to the Attorney General at the time,
and she then agreed to see me, and to give
her due, she was very compassionate and she said, you know,
I will help you get to speak to someone at
Legal Aid. So you know, I was very fortunate in
(33:55):
that respect, and once again I was very grateful to
David chrisipally for helping me because without his help, I
wouldn't have got that meeting. And once again, as I've
said before, you know, if we need powerful people on
our side, but the majority of us we don't know
powerful people, and we don't have powerful people that we
can turn to, so we need someone who can be
(34:16):
in our corner and can sort of bridge that gap
for us.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
One other thing, the thing that stood out to me
is one of the most appalling things that you went
through when you on Irene talked about when the verdict
or the ruling was handed down by the coroner and
there was all the cheering and everything like that. Can
you just recall that one again, because that was something
(34:40):
like out of a movie or something.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yes. And I've always said if this was a John
Grisham plot, no one would read his books because they'd say,
this is just so ridiculous and so far fetched. You know,
this couldn't possibly happen in real life. But when I
was being questioned on that stand, there was a section
of time where I was ask question and I answered
them honestly, and I was jeered at by the police.
(35:03):
Can you imagine how horrific that is for a civilian
to be sitting on a stand in a courtroom where
we've never been before and have an entire back row
of police jeer you when you give an honest answer
to a question. And then at the end of it,
I mean, you know, narrator Wilson hadn't even handed down
a finding. I mean, look, you would have to be
(35:25):
completely you know, living on another planet to not know
what her ruling was after that inquest, it was as
planned as the nose on your face how she was
going to rule. But like, let's hold back a minute here,
she hadn't even given a rule, and she'd just basically said,
you know, that was it. Old my decision in what
she'd said within a week or two was actually over
(35:45):
a month. But before she'd virtually brought the hammer down,
they were on their feet and they were clapping and
laughing and cheering, slapping ed Kinbacker on the bat. And
my thought was like, why why are they doing this?
Like I haven't accused him of anything. We're just here,
we're trying to present the facts. We're trying to find
(36:07):
out about what happened to Gwen. And yet they're congratulating
this man, shaking him by the hand and saying, good
on your mate, well done, well done for what well
done forgetting on the stand, and you know, denigrating me,
denigrating my sister, like denigrating my father, you know, dismissing
the fact that my father went to see a solicitor
(36:29):
back in nineteen eighty three and try and get help.
I mean, that was August a big joke to them,
and it was probably one of the most you know,
soul destroying things of the whole the whole thing, like
seeing these people who have sworn to serve and protect
us standing up there cheering and laughing when you know
(36:51):
it was clear to everyone in that courtroom that day
that we had absolutely no chance of getting any help
to try and find out what really happened to Gwen.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Well, well, so they're not laughing now.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
No, we can only hope that they may have learnt
something from this, Allison, but it's doubtful. I mean, I
firmly believe you can't change people's inherent nature. You can
throw all the counseling sessions and training courses and PD
opportunities at the end of the world, but at the
end of the day, if you've got the mentality to
(37:24):
write an email about a dead mother of two young
boys referring to her case as a little treasure, putting
a modi is after it, and you know, making comments
like all this has left the building. When you finally
think you've got someone who's going to stand up and
say she was a drunk and she basically deserved what
she got. I mean, people who will celebrate that sort
(37:47):
of thing, they're not going to see the light. They're
not going to see the light and suddenly become decent people.
But the really horrifying thing here is that organizations like
Ethical Standards and the Triple CE enable these people instead
of saying, let's put a stop to this, let's try
and sort the week from the chaff. Let's get rid
(38:09):
of these people and bring in someone with a fresh
mind who will behave in the manner that's worthy of
the you know, the oath that they'd taken. No, they
enable them, They leave them in these positions of power.
And whileever that's happening, whileever we've got the ed kinbackers
and Natara Camp, while I was running the show for
the one of a better word, nothing will ever change now, unfortunately, well.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
It does show the need very much, the need for
an outsourced organization that looks at please misconduct, not just corruption,
because that seems to be all the Triple C will do.
So not doing your job properly, negligence, which there obviously
was with the way that it was handled, it doesn't
seem to get into that Sue stays across media thoughts
(39:00):
about Queensland Police, and one that court arrived was a
decision to award a prestigious medal to police Detective Brett Divine,
who headed up the cold case team that confirmed the
suicide theory of the original investigation. Sue wrote to the
Office of Premier David chris A fully emailing two of
(39:20):
his senior advisors.
Speaker 5 (39:22):
Dear Ian and Katie I Am writing in relation to
the recipients of the twenty twenty five Australian Police Medal
announced on Australia Day. I was both concerned and dismayed
to see that DS Brett Divine was listed among the recipients.
Please see screenshop below. Breat Divine played a significant role
(39:44):
in the vis management of Gwen's case in twenty nineteen
to twenty twenty, shortly after Attorney General Yvette Dart ordered
an investigation. The case was initially assigned to him, but
upon discovering his clo US personal connections with ed kinbacker
Jerry Thornton and I contacted Terry Ryan to have him
(40:07):
removed from the investigation. Divine is also the senior DEVO
referenced in Tara cant Wealth emails, where Gwen's case is
referred to as a little treasure. On the sixth of
September twenty twenty four, the Triple C informed me that
the behavior of the Cold case detectives and ed Kinbacker
(40:30):
was under investigation by the Ethical Standards Board. It seems
to me that there is clear collusion between Tara Cantwell
and Bret Divine, which should also be considered when evaluating
his conduct. Please find the email from the Triple C
attached for your reference. I find it astonishing that someone
(40:53):
like Bret Divine could be awarded such a prestigious honor.
Thank you for your time and consideration. Best regards, Sue.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
We know how the Ethical Standards Board investigation turned out,
but the Premier's office did take some action.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
Dear Miss Cole, thank you for your email passing on
your concerns about an Australian Police medal recipient. I have
been requested to reply to you on behalf of the
Premier and Minister for Veterans. Given the nature of the
concerns you have raised in your correspondence, I have forwarded
your email to the office of the Honorable Dan Perdy MP,
Minister for Police and Emergency Services for appropriate action. Again,
(41:35):
thank you for taking the time to write to the
Premier and Minister for Veterans and I hope this information
is of assistance to you. Yours sincerely, Office of the
Premier and Minister for Veterans.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
As to what action Police Minister Dan Perdy has taken,
you guessed it. They don't seem to give it the
weight it deserves, so they're obviously needs to be someone
else besides police internally looking at police misconduct.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
I totally agree, and this is something that you know,
I've spoken with people like Jerry Thornton ron Ittle's about
over the years. I've even brought it up with our
state politicians are now state politicians that you know, there
has to be an independent body, and a truly independent body,
not a body of people who are mates and ex
(42:26):
colleagues of the ones who are currently still in the system,
a truly independent body who can look at this with
fresh eyes, with a clear mind and say well, this
is not acceptable, this is not appropriate, and this is
not the type of public persona we want this organization
to have. And I think I think there is that
(42:48):
that has to come in with Allison. I mean you're
probably like me. We were brought up with respect the police,
to have respect for authority. Sadly, I don't see that
in the younger generation now. You know, it's more like
who are these people? They are almost a laughing sock.
So what was once an honorable profession has now almost become,
sadly a joke.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
I think there is still some good ones out there,
and I think the majority are good ones, but unfortunately
there are some really bad seeds who somehow like Teflon,
So I don't know. Hopefully that will be fixed in
the future.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Let's hope. So let's hope for the generations that are
coming on in for all the young women of Australia today,
because at the end of the day, whether we like
it or not, they're all we've got, you know, the
system that we've got at the moment, that's all we've
got to try and hopefully, you know, protect the young women.
And it's not happening at the moment, but you know,
(43:47):
it's something that hopefully will change in the future in
future generations. And you know, cases like Whens I will
continue to fight this and to follow this up forever.
So you know, if anybody ever does come forward with
any information, you know, I'll be back under Claire straight away.
(44:10):
She's given me permission to contact her as often as
I need and we'll start the ball rolling again. So
I guess even though it may be the end of
our podcast series, it's still really much is you know,
watch this space because as we know, else and anything
can happen in the future.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Well that's right, and I always say this where you
can always have bonus episodes, so it's a it may
be the end of the season or you know, the
podcast in its current form, but there's always bonus ones.
So anyway, thank you so much. It's been an absolute
pleasure to see. You are truly someone to be reckoned
with and it's not for the fainthearted, so thank goodness
(44:48):
for and Gwen would be so proud we know that.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Thanks Allison, and thanks again to you and Brian. You've
just been the most amazing team to work with and
I can't speak highly enough of either of you. And
without support, without the media support, and without this being
made public, it would never be where we are today.
So thank you both from the bottom of my heart
and the bottom of gwen'shab as well.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Thank you sir, well, we'll be in touch again, and
we will as Just before publishing this episode, Sue had
a call from Ian k who, as you recall, works
for Premier David chris A. Fully he confirmed his office
was reviewing the Triple C response to Sue about police misconduct. Currently,
(45:31):
these matters are only dealt with in house, and despite
the seriousness of confirmation bias and the subsequent repercussions, it's
not considered corruption. Maybe that issue will finally be addressed
under the new government. Someone somewhere may know more about
(46:05):
this case. Perhaps one of our listeners may help find
the information that reveals the truth behind the death of
Gwen Grover. If you know something or have a suggestion,
please email us at Shot in the Dark at seven
dot com dot au or leave us an anonymous tip
(46:26):
at Shotinthdark dot com dot au. If this podcast has
raised issues for you, please call Lifeline on thirteen eleven
fourteen or visit them at www dot lifeline dot org
dot AU. This podcast is brought to you by me
(46:48):
presenter and journalist Alison Sandy. If you like what you're hearing,
please rate and review our podcast. It helps other listeners
find us special Thanks to My Writer, Producer Brian Seymour,
Gwen's sister and tireless campaigner for justice Sue Cole, sound
(47:10):
designer Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blamford. Before Our theme music
is by Bob Kronk the first and there is a
link to his music on Spotify in the show notes
way such Swirl the Painlesing Shot in the Dark is
(47:37):
a seven News production.