June 7, 2024 • 52 mins
Unlock the secrets of custom shotgun craftsmanship with Rich from Cole Gunsmithing! This episode of Shotgun Sports USA gives an in-depth look at the meticulous art of creating custom stocks, the precision of CNC technology, and the innovations of their newly redesigned website. Rich shares invaluable insights on how they balance detailed technical information to combat industry misinformation while maintaining accessibility for all enthusiasts.
Discover the magic behind manufacturing competition gun stocks as we explore the critical role of CNC technology and traditional hand-finishing techniques. Rich walks us through the intricacies of scanning pattern stocks to create CAD models that ensure perfect duplication and optimal fitting, essential for competitive shooters.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Shotgun Sports USA.
Powered by WinchesterAmmunition, the American Legend.
Listen to the best shotgunshooters from all over the world
in every disciplineChampionship winning coaches,
gun clubs, target setters,vendors, as well as companies
that make it all happen, broughtto you by Briley Rick
(00:20):
Hemingway's Promatic Trap Sales,cole Gunsmithing, clay, target
Vision, castellani USA andFalcon Strike.
Thanks for listening andremember to visit us online at
ShotgunSportsUSAcom, like us onFacebook and follow us on
Instagram.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
On today's show.
We're glad to have the manbehind Coalfine Guns and
Gunsmithing.
His wealth of knowledge neverfails to impress.
If you're curious about thecraftsmanship of custom stocks
and the precision of patternduplication, this is the episode
for you.
Also, stay tuned for more onyour favorite shotguns like
Beretta, perazzi, blaser andZoli.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Let's welcome back the one again hi, justin, nice
to talk to you this evening.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, you know I've been trying to do this.
I think I talked to you, sawJack Links or something, and I
said you know, rich, I need toget you back on the show and
you've been so busy witheverything you've got going on
and we're finally getting aroundto doing this.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
No, it's good.
It's good to hear from you.
It's been a busy year.
A lot of you know been a lot ofgrowth in the business, a lot
of changes.
You know sometimes changes arepainful, but all the changes
have been good.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I know, you know I was going to mention that you
I've noticed your website'sredesigned.
I mean, I've talked todifferent people.
That's working for you.
Now, what is Coal Gun doing andwhere do you you know?
Where are you planning to takethis?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Sure, sure.
Well, you know we're kind ofgrowing like the grass is.
You know we're doing itorganically, from the sense that
you know we're trying to lookat.
You know what our areas ofexpertise are and you know what
are the demands of themarketplace, demands of the
marketplace, and then try andput our energy into the, the,
the, the areas whereby you knowwe can utilize our expertise and
(02:49):
provide service for folks.
Um, you know the website, ofcourse that's, you know that's
an ongoing thing.
You know technology is, youknow, changes by the day.
You know we've had a websitefor many, many, many years and
and, uh, you know, although I'mnot, you know, well-versed with
that, with that technology, youknow I'm, you know, pretty much
(03:11):
a guy who was, you know, trainedwith a hacksaw and a file.
Um, you know, we, we, wecertainly realize the importance
of our website and you know,not only does it, is it in a
place that you know that, thatwe're able to show our product
and sell our product, you know,through our web store.
But you know we try and providemeaningful information, you
know, on it as well, and some ofthe FAQs, and you know just
(03:31):
sort of some of theannouncements and things that we
try and kind of get out therefor folks.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, it's really.
It seems like it's never ending, like if you get on here you
can find everything you want tofind out about a shotgun, it
seems to me.
I mean you can find.
It seems like you can get partsand wood and you can schedule
all kinds of things and callpeople.
I saw what it is.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Sure, you know, you know there's, there's, there's
so much content.
You know, and and I think thatyou know it's, it's, it's, it's
good and it's bad, because youknow my guys, that sort of work
on the website and you know themarketing people say, huh,
there's too much informationthere.
It's confusing, you know, butfrom my standpoint, I'm a
technician, you know, and I dorealize the value of having a
(04:19):
lot of information, even if it'sdifficult for a person to find
to, to, to find what it is thatthey're really looking for.
You know, the reality is isthat you know there's so much
misinformation.
You know, in our industry, youknow, particularly on the, you
know the, the technical aspectsof, you know of the guns that
you know.
I, I feel as though it's it's abenefit to our, you know, to
our client, to, you know, have awebsite that really has a lot
(04:43):
of information there that theycan get their teeth into and, of
course, a lot of it too is justproduct.
We've got so many differentthings that are going on now
between our custom stock makingwith the selection of blanks.
I mean, one of the things thatwe've done is that we've taken
photos of all of our, all of ourupgrade gunstock blanks that we
(05:06):
use to to make custom stocksbecause so many of our clients
are unable to travel.
You know, to one of ourlocations where we do this kind
of work that you know the um,you know a lot of it's done by
by phone and by by email anddigital photography and and you
know having having a lot of thethe blanks and then the upgrade
wood sets for the Berettas thatwe you know that we have there
(05:28):
Um, you know it just.
It just gives people or youknow the resource to get on
there and get the informationthey're looking for, find the
product they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And all I was.
I was sitting here.
It's kind of funny you broughtthat up.
I'm sitting here on the woodpage right now, for DT11 is just
going through them.
All of this stuff on yourwebsite is actually at your one
of your locations, right?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Everything but the unmachined blanks.
You know, um, you know it's,it's one of our.
You know we've got threelocations, of course.
You know we've got the originallocation in Harpswell, maine,
and then the Naples Floridalocation and, uh, the San
Antonio at the NSC location.
So you know everything that ison our web page is in one of
(06:08):
those three shops, with theexception of the blanks that are
not machined for a specific gun, because you know I have a
partner in Marcheno, italy, thatis a real top-notch expert in
5-axis CNC and what we do is weutilize his services to do a lot
of the internal machining andpreparation of the blanks.
(06:29):
When we make custom stocks,sometimes we don't have these
patterns ourselves, and so youknow we have him do that
internal machining and then sendthe blank to us and then we set
it up on our CNC system.
And you know we work from ascan or a digital file that you
know that we have, that we'vedeveloped, you know, to do the
(06:51):
outside profiling, All right.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Talk about that internal.
What you're talking about asfar as inletting the wood, I'm
assuming is what you mean,correct?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, exactly, you know.
So, just you know, to make surethat you know my terminology is
correct, you know when I referto inletting I'm talking about.
You know the drilling of thestop bolt hole up through the
center of the blank and how itrelates then to the internal
machining where all of theclearance is given for the wood
(07:23):
so that it can slide onto thereceiver without having any gaps
or anything you know around it.
And uh, you know we, we do allthat with, uh, with cnc
technology, because you know thetechnology in effect is perfect
.
When you, you know, when youhave a model that you've
corrected, that you've created,um, you know the machine will
always follow that model withoutfail and barring a cutter
(07:49):
breaking or your part slippingin its fixture, you always get
in effect a perfect duplicationof the computer program that
you've set up to to machine.
And you know that's soimportant in competition guns,
um, because the guns, you knowthey take such a beating under
(08:12):
recoil and the number of shotsthat you know that the that the
competitive shooters fire, youknow, in these guns it's it's
really important to have thatinternal work done correctly so
there's as much wood on theinside as there can possibly be
just leaving enough clearancefor the parts to be able to move
what are if?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
if this wasn't done correctly through a cnc like
you're talking about, what couldhappen?
Would the gun not?
Would the gun not cycle?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
I mean, sure?
Well, I mean that the stock,the stock would break.
Um, the stock could, could,move, you know, and and and move
around on the receiver, um, andyou know, have a different feel
to the shooter.
Uh, that would generally leadto breaking, or or again, um,
you could, you could have whatyou said, justin you could have
(09:01):
a failure to fire, you couldhave, you know, hammers or sears
, trigger components orsomething, cocking rods, uh,
cocking cams could rub on theinletting on the inside and be,
you know, be, be, obstructed bythe wood, and the gun would not
function properly.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, yeah, so it's important to have that right.
And uh, so talk about.
You just mentioned the CNC onthe inside.
All right, Well, we just wentover to you have a CNC machine
for the outside at one of yourshops.
Is it in Maine?
Is that where it's at?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
That's, that's in Maine.
Yeah, my, my oldest son, larry,uh, you know, of course he's
grown up at the bench and youknow, went down the.
You know the the manufacturingroute with, uh, um, precision
machining metals primarily, buthe, you know, he does the wood.
We have one machine that's athree-axis CNC with a point
(09:52):
counterpoint set up on it andbasically that machine is
dedicated just to machiningstocks and you know basically
what we do is.
You know we have.
You know we have a fixture thatwe put the machined blank.
That's been inlet, it's CNCinlet, and we put that on the
fixture and the fixture holds itand then the machine will cut
(10:15):
the outside of that stock blankto whatever the program is that
the machine has been commanded.
You know to run, that themachine has been commanded you
know to run and you know.
So basically you know the.
The.
The challenge for us alwaysbecause you know we're not doing
any production, we're, we'remaking one at a time.
You know everything is customthe challenge is always how do
(10:36):
you get that external dimension?
You know, you know we talkabout people doing fittings and
so on and so forth, and you knowwhen, when, you know when a
shooter, if they know what theirstock dimensions are.
Um, and they've they've workedwith someone like you know, we
work with jim greenwood a lot.
You know jim, jim's very, verygood at doing pattern stocks and
and, uh, of course, he's goodat doing finish sets as well.
(10:57):
I mean, he's a, you know, he'sa, uh, you know, a real ace at
his craft.
Um, but he's one man and he'sbusy and and you know.
So what what we do is, uh, wewould take a pattern stock that
that a shooter has, that they'recomfortable with.
We set that up on a fixture andwe do a scan of that, you know.
So it's a digital laser scannerthat scans that and and then we
(11:21):
edit that scan and create a CADmodel that we then command the
CNC system to follow on thatblank that has been set up on
that machine, and that CNCmachine, of course, will then
duplicate on that blank anabsolute perfect model of what
(11:42):
that scan was from the shooter'spattern stock.
Um, so that's, that's a perfectsituation.
If somebody's got a patternstock that they want to have
duplicated, this is a perfectway to do it, because there just
isn't any margin of error.
Um, generally speaking, youknow, when we get someone's
pattern stock, you know we'vegot to take all the ripples and
waves and things out of itbecause when, when you scan,
(12:06):
basically you're you know you'regoing to get a perfect
duplication.
So if there's, if there are anyinsufficiencies or problems in
the pattern stock, we have to ofcourse correct that prior to
the scanning.
The other way is we have anumber of, you know, different
grip models and things thatwe've created from a variety of
(12:28):
stocks.
And if an individual doesn'thave a pattern stock, if we can
get their stock dimensions fromthem and we understand what
their grip size is, we will usethe CNC system and machine a
stock that is basically finishedin the grip area.
We leave the palm swell alittle bit large and then we
leave the back end oversized andwe use the old-school method by
(12:50):
hand with a spokeshave andcabinetmaker's rasps and side
grinders with rasp discs on themand we basically finish the
dimensional aspects of the buttend of the gun, you know, by
hand for the shooter.
And when we do it like that,generally what we want to do is
(13:11):
we'll want to send it to theclient in the white, so we've
left a little bit more materialon it so that they can feel it,
and then we work on it again,you know, after they've had a
chance to shoot the gun a littlebit and return it to us with a
little bit of commentary andcritique on.
You know what, what the changesneed to be.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
So a lot of this stuff can be done remotely from
what you're telling me, yes, it,it can, yeah, it sure can.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I mean, you know the the best, obviously the best
case scenario is you know you'vegot the customer right there in
the shop and you can, you knowyou can work with them
one-on-one.
But you know we, we do, youknow most all of this work in in
our naples florida shop, in ourharps for main shop.
And you know, for folks thatare out on the west coast or
whatever, uh, travel is notnecessarily, you know, all that
(13:57):
convenient for them.
Um, so, with you know, withbeing able to do videos and and,
uh, facetime, and that todayit's it's so easy to communicate
around these things that youknow we've had very, very good
success with the processes thatwe use.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Now, can you take a?
This is I was just thinkingthis if someone's shooting a
DT11, or just we'll use a DTOkay, if someone's shooting a
DT11 and they also have an A400that they want the same kind of
stock on, can you convert theirstock or can you build one to
fit the A400 with the samedimensions as the DT11?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
We can closely.
It really depends upon the grip.
It really depends upon the gripIn your semi-autos because of
either the action spring tube orthe stock bolt, the angle that
the stock bolt comes off of asemi-auto, where the top of the
grip is, ends up being a littlebit higher than what you can get
(14:57):
on most over-unders, becausethe axis of the draw bolt ends
up being a little bit lower.
And so if a person wants, for,for example, a real deep trough
at the top of the grip andthey've got that on their over
under, you can't accomplish thaton a semi-auto because you
break through the hole that'srequired for the, the stock bolt
, to go up through.
And again, that's not done froma scan.
(15:19):
That has to be done by handbecause you know the, the, the
scan model.
For example, say, we scan a,you know a k80, and now we, we
can make a perfect copy of thatk80 stock, but to make you can't
utilize that scan on asemi-auto because you know all.
Basically, we're trying toachieve the same dimensions, but
(15:41):
but the inletting is completelydifferent, makes sense.
So, basically we do that the oldschool way, using a drop stick
and a set of calipers.
We take all the measurementsfrom the one gun and then we
basically do the inletting byCNC.
But we do all of the work tomake the stock by hand Nice.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
On the outside we do all of the uh, the work to make
the stock by hand.
Nice, uh, I guess the next stepis, once you have this stock
done, you can I know that youoffer a hand checkering machine,
checkering whatever kind ofcheckering you want.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, sure, sure, you know.
Now.
Now, you know you get to your,you get to your finish, you know
, and you're finishing yourcheckering and that that's,
that's all cosmetic.
You know that's, that's um,that's the bling you know of it.
Um, I guess we would call fancywood bling, because you know
most, most guys don't want acustom stock if they don't have
a pretty attractive lookingpiece of wood.
But you know, the checkering wedo, we, we do, do we do um,
(16:37):
laser checkering.
You know, which again iscomputer driven laser.
Um, and, and you know that'sthat's quick turnaround time, um
, you know it's, it's uh, how dowe say it doesn't have the, the
artistic aspect that handcheckering does for some people.
They're perfectly happy withthat.
(16:57):
It depends upon the.
You know the use, you know whattheir, what their own
preferences.
I have, uh, we don't do ourhand checkering in-house.
You know that's a very specificskill set and you know I
learned to do it many, manyyears ago and got to do it well
enough to know that I didn'twant to do it.
So you know, it takes somebodythat's got great concentration
(17:21):
and continuing attention todetail, and you know I have just
enough attention deficitdisorder that I that I I want to
bounce around a little bit toomuch, but um, we use, uh, john
Reese is out in Montana and umand um, um, john, what's the?
Uh Ron, ron Buck, I'm sorry,it's been a long day.
Ron Buck is over here on theEast coast.
(17:41):
Um, ron Buck, I'm sorry, it'sbeen a long day.
Ron Buck is over here on theEast Coast and you know those
two guys are really really goodand you know they're both
artisans and have been doing youknow checkering not only
(18:02):
checkering, but carving.
You know ornamental carving,like fish scales, and you know
some of the oak leaf clustersand things like that, which you
know we don't do too much ofthat.
But you know these fellows arecapable of doing it and you know
they're a couple of the best inthe business.
There are other people outthere, you know, that are good
as well, but those are the twofellows that we use to do the
hand checkering.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
So you know when we produce the stock in forend, if
it's going to be hand checkering, we box it up and send it to
one of those gentlemen.
I would think that handcheckering would be just as
tedious as maybe engraving ashotgun, wouldn't you think, or
am I wrong?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Well, I found it very , very tedious and, of course, I
can't compare it to engraving,justin, because I don't have the
artistic uh bent to to be ableto engrave.
I youve you know.
So, um, I, I knew I wasn'tgoing to be in an engraver right
off the bat.
So you know I, I don't have anyexperience, you know I, I have
a number of friends that are,that are really, really
(18:55):
accomplished master engraversand I have tremendous respect
for their skill.
Um, and I think that what wouldyou or I might consider to be
tedious, you know they look atas, uh, you know just a
tremendous passion in terms ofyou know, their, what their,
their ability to to create.
You know this, this incredibleartwork, you know, in steel and
(19:17):
aluminum it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I've watched some of it online and it's I mean
working under magnifying glassesand having a steady hand like
that.
I don't even know if I couldwrite my name with you know some
of the tools I've gotten.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Well, it's pretty remarkable, you know, and, and I
think there are probably somevery, very good videos now, you
know, on on um, you know thatthe engravers have got out and,
um, you know, there there's somefantastic books.
Um, you, you know, stefanoPedretti is a very good friend
of mine and you know we have adeal with Stefano where we have
(19:51):
a Parazzi grade, that is ourdedicated grade.
It's a custom Parazzi, it'scalled SCC grade and basically,
you know what it is is it's agun that Parazzi builds for us,
and then it goes to Stefano andStefano does the engraving and
signs it, and then it goes backto Parazzi for heat treatment,
final assembly, and then, andthen we stock them, you know, in
(20:14):
the USA.
So it's a.
You know it's a three-wayproject and it's a.
It's a.
It's a lot of fun because, youknow, working with Stefano, he's
he's so creative and is able todo such incredible work in
terms of these engravings.
He's so well known for his dogs.
He's such an expert with theanatomy.
(20:37):
When you look at a Pedrettiengraved dog, you'll see the
dog's tongue, you'll see thespittle in his face.
You'll see the mist on his.
You'll see the spittle in hisface.
You'll see that.
You know the, the, the mist onhis breath, you know as he, as
he, flushes a bird.
It's, it's, absolutelymagnificent yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
So let's we're on shotgun stocks.
All right, we've, we've.
Let's back up to this, becauseyou're gonna lose, lose me in
that Green Graven stuff and Idon't have any idea what all
that stuff is or how to do it.
So the finishes on a shotgunstock, what would you say would
be the most popular, the leastpopular or the most durable?
(21:15):
What?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
would you recommend?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
How about that?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I think that a lot of it depends upon, again, the
preference of the owner and theuse of the shotgun.
There are two basic types offinishes that there really are.
You've got oil finish, which isthe old, traditional type
finish.
There are a lot of differentkinds of oil that are used.
(21:42):
Most of the oils are going tobe boiled linseed oil with a
little bit of Japan dryer andtung oil in it, and that's going
to be a good oil finish that'sgoing to give reasonable
resistance to water andperspiration.
It's not that durable, okay.
Your other finish is going to belike your conversion varnishes,
(22:05):
or epoxy, two-party poxies andthose, uh, synthetic type
finishes.
You know polyurethane, um, youknow is is a polyurethane
varnishes, is is one of thosethat we, you know, consider a
hard finish.
Um, those hard finishes, um arevery, very durable until they
become damaged.
They're very difficult torepair, you know.
(22:28):
So, for example, you know, whenyou the gun comes off the cart.
You know, as we unfortunatelysee from time to time, if you've
got a hard finish on the gun,the only thing you can really do
to repair that is is tocompletely strip the finish off
and start, you know, down tobare wood and and refinish the
(22:50):
gun completely and it's, it's,it's caught.
It's not particularly costeffective and, uh, you don't
always get a great result.
A lot of times the checkeringwill be damaged in the process
of removing.
You know the, the, you knowthis, this old finish, um, oil
finish.
On the other hand, if you getscratches and chase and things,
it's, it's very, very easy torepair it without doing a
(23:12):
complete refinish job, but it'snot durable.
You know, um, in the South wegenerally say, well, target guns
in the South use hard finishesbecause they're they're going're
gonna, it's gonna stand up tothe perspiration and the
whiskers and some of the rainthat you, that you, that you see
down there hunting guns, youknow they.
(23:34):
You know they don't get as muchuse, typically speaking, and
people tend to like a little bitmore of the classic look on the
hunting guns.
So you know we lean towards theoil finishes.
You know, on hunting guns ortarget guns that are primarily
used, uh, you know, up north or,you know, in in drier climates
(23:55):
that's interesting, how that isthat's you know, yeah, yeah, I
mean most of the manufacturerslike, for example, krighoff,
parazzi, parazzi, kolar.
They use hard finishes, sprayedfinishes, zolli.
They're distributed from ZolliInternational.
They use the hard finish.
(24:16):
Blaser F3s are an oil varnish,an oil varnish.
The Zollis that we have builtby Zolli for coal gunsmithing.
We have an option where they doa nice oil finish.
It's a little bit more of atraditional look.
Beretta DT11s, those are allwhat we call a soft oil finish.
(24:38):
It's not really an oil varnish,it's more of a matte finish and
, again, real easy to repair.
But again, so much of it.
Justin, is what does a personlike?
The looks of the guy that likesthat thick, real glossy look.
You can't really get that thicklook with oil, so you've got to
(25:02):
go.
You know you've got to go withthis, the sprayed um, uh type
conversion varnish or epoxyfinishes for that.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, and I'm sure it depends, you know, with me.
I like the way all finisheslook.
I like the way both of themlook, and I think that I would
like to have an oil finish stock, but I know that I don't take
care of it like I should, soI'll just go for the harder
finish.
Sure, the way I look at it.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, that's the thing.
The oil finish stocks.
They require more care, theyreally do.
Or else in the south, where youare, the perspiration and the
humidity is real hard on thatfinish and the finish chase off
and it just looks awful in notime at all.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
And if you don't, want to, if you don't want to
sort of baby it and take care ofit in that kind of a an
environment it's, you're much,much better off to have the hard
finish.
You know, rich, I've I've knowny'all for several years now and
I've always thought of you asthe Beretta guys, the Beretta
people you know.
But you you have a whole lotmore there than just Beretta.
I mean, like you've talkedabout Zoli's and and Pirazzi's,
and is Zoli doing somethingexclusive with you at that?
What you just said, they buildguns for you.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Um, yeah, zoli, Zoli builds some guns for us with uh,
instead of the hard finish, um,you know, with with a really
well-done oil finish.
It's a semi-glossy oil finishand it's more for the individual
that likes that more classicappearance in a gun.
(26:36):
Zoli has really come a longways.
Norbert Hausman has done afantastic job.
Most anybody who's listening tothis podcast is going to know
who Norbert was, from his, histenure with uh, with Brighoff as
the service manager, butNorbert's uh, you know, a real
knowledgeable gun guy, veryaccomplished gunsmith, and and,
um, you know, he's really helpeduh, zoli, you know, tune their
(26:57):
guns for the, you know, for theU S market, um, and they've done
some interesting things.
So we've got some guns now, youknow, from Zoli, not only with
the oil finish, which is, youknow, which is cosmetic, but
with lighter weight barrels, youknow.
You know they've got, they'vegot barrels that are several
ounces lighter than than thestandard guns, you know.
So, for the individual that youknow doesn't want a real heavy
(27:20):
gun and is trying to keep theweight off the front end of the
gun but still wants a long setof barrels, this is, this is a
great option that they offer.
So there there are a lot, of, alot of little things that can
be done, you know, with, withZoli and and, like you said, you
know we're, we've really beenknown.
Cold Gun Spilling has reallybeen known for Beretta, you know
, and of course that was becauseI was trained by Beretta and
you know I've always had, youknow, quite a loyalty there.
(27:42):
I've, you know, been a Cold GunSpilling.
Has been a warranty repairservice center for, you know,
beretta shotguns and theirpremium guns for, you know, for
many years.
But you know it's only anatural lateral move to.
You know, some of the othermanufacturers.
Like you know, we do a lot ofwork with Parazzi.
You know we sell a lot ofParazzi guns.
(28:02):
We, you know we, we sell a lotof parazzi guns.
We, you know, we stock them.
We do the custom stocks on onthe parazzis as well.
Um, when um, you know rizzini,we do, we do a lot with rizzini.
You know another, it's rizzinib?
Um which is a, you know, a goodquality, moderately priced over
under um out of marcano, italy.
Uh, whether we're US servicecenter for them as well.
(28:26):
When Andre Goyap came on fromBlaser, of course we picked up
the Blaser line becauseeverybody that knows Blaser
knows that Andre is the Blaserguru.
So that gives us anotherservice to provide our clientele
.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, I mean that's what I didn't expect or I didn't
think of when I was, you know,looking at your site and I'm
thinking, well, he's got alittle bit of everything.
I mean it's not just Beretta's,so it's it's you're.
You're talking about Parazzicustom stocks.
I don't hear a lot of peopleshoot parrots because I'm around
(29:10):
a bunch of Beretta guys, but Iknow they're out there and I
didn't know that you did that.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
I guess you do it for a little bit of everything.
Yeah, we do it for a little bitof everything, you know.
I mean again, you know we'vegot to, we've got to run our
business based upon ourstrengths.
Obviously you know and you know, and our strength is, you know
we're basically custom.
You know taking factory gunsand applying certain custom
features.
You know to the guns that youknow that we have the skillset
(29:32):
to, you know to, to apply and ofcourse you as a, as a
competitive shooter, understandhow important having a stock is
that fits you and you know.
So we, we've really spent thetime to, you know, to learn to
make proper stocks and you knowand apply that.
That technology that you know,that we've, that we've learned
with um.
You know to the, the, the othermanufacturers that we, that we
(29:56):
work with.
So you know, for example, youknow we, you know we do the.
You know we buy the, the DT11Berettas We've got the SL2s
going now and the SL3s and theParazzis.
We buy those guns with headedblanks right from the factory.
So it comes to us just with ablock of wood on it for a
buttstock and that saves theconsumer a heck of a lot of
(30:19):
money and time because we haveforegone this inletletting
process that we have to go.
You know that we have to gothrough.
We can take that gunimmediately and basically
machine a custom stock.
So you know, in many caseswe're down to an eight-week
turnaround time, you know, to beable to take somebody's order,
(30:42):
produce them a custom stock,finish and check it and deliver
it in their hands.
And you know it just stands toreason for us to offer that for
more than just the Beretta brand.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, yeah, you just brought up a minute ago the DT11
headed stock guns.
I can remember years back youwere doing this and selling them
at a deal.
I mean, you could buy a DT11with your own stock on it.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Right, that's right.
You can do that right off theshelf.
Because what we do, justin, iswhen somebody buys the gun from
us, we don't have to charge themthe price of a full custom
stock, because it's already gota headed blank on it.
All we're doing is half the job.
(31:31):
We're not doing the completejob.
We don't have to make a stockand a forearm, so you're not
spending thousands of dollarsafter you've bought a gun to put
a stock that fits you on it.
You know it's.
It's kind of the one, the onestop.
You know one stop shop, youknow you, you, you buy the gun.
We've got a little bit ofprofit in the gun.
We can lower our labor costsbecause there isn't quite as
(31:52):
much labor in that, and so we wecan offer, you know, a very
dramatic price reduction, youknow, um, as opposed to what it
would cost to buy the gun andthen have it custom stocked.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, that's, which is a great idea.
I mean, I've always thoughtthat was a a really cool thing
to do was to combine that and dowhat you're doing, I mean, and
get a custom gun for about thesame price as one that's not
custom.
You know that's.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah, it's, it's a little more there.
You know, a few years ago, youknow, brian Buzzy with Beretta
and I were really, you know, wewere really trying to kind of
get this thing going, you know.
So I was working nights fornothing, you know, but we're not
able, we can't sharpen ourpencil quite as much.
Now.
You know where the business hasgrown a lot.
You know we've got I thinkwe've got about 25 employees now
(32:40):
between our three locations.
You know, and and uh, all ofthe people that that you know
that work for us are are skilledindividuals.
You know, um, you know, and anduh.
You know to to retain them is,um, you know we've got to treat
them well, right.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Oh yeah, how hard is it while we're talking about
that, how hard is it to findpeople that you need in your
line of work?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
It just seems like there's not a lot out there.
Yeah, I think that I meanhonestly, I think our industry,
you know, from the consumerstandpoint, is in a little bit
of trouble Because, you know,the handful of competent
high-end over-under gunsmithsare really aging out.
You know, um, you know MitchSchultz is is is closing down.
(33:30):
Um, God bless him.
You know Eddie Anderson passedaway, you know, in this in this
last year.
Um, I'm not a young buckanymore, um, you look like you
are, you know, mike.
Mike, mike, mike, mike, well,I'm trying to stay in shape.
I want to make it last as longas I can, my friend.
But you know, mike, mikeSherman and Lawrence Polinsky,
(33:51):
you know, are, are, you know,are really kind of staking,
taking a step back.
Um, I have, I am doing moretraining now in my business with
my younger gunsmiths than I ammyself physically doing work
anymore, because, you know, Irealize this, this hole is out
there and you know, and you knowI, over the years, you know,
(34:13):
I've been able to hireindividuals really with with no
experience in the trade and thenteach them the way that I would
like them to work.
And you know, you know for forfor each skilled guy that I have
now, I mean, other than AndreGoyer.
Andre is you know he, he, hecame from Blaser, he's very,
very skilled and and I can'ttake any credit for his you know
(34:36):
, for his mastery of the trade,um, but you know, my other guys,
um, you know, have been trainedwithin our, within our, our
company.
Um, reason for that really isbecause I don't think that the
gunsmithing schools today areproviding the kind of curriculum
that is necessary for anindividual to learn how to do
(34:58):
expert gunsmithing on over-undershotguns.
You know now that may change intime, but you know at this
point in time, you know now thatmay change in time, um, but you
know at this, at this point intime, you know the, the
individuals that you know thatwe had hired out of gunsmithing
school, um, really had somestruggles, you know they, they,
they didn't, they weren't reallyup, weren't really up to speed,
(35:18):
um, you know so, I, I, I, yeah,I do have some, I do have some
good guys, you know, and and Ihope to, I hope to treat them
well enough that they want tostay with me.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Right, all right Question and I'm going to see.
I know you can answer this.
I've I've been asked thisquestion and I have no no idea
to the answer.
A DT 11, a SL2 and a SL3.
What are what?
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Okay.
So the DT11, okay, uses the inthe Kirsten type cross lock
locking system that all of theSO side lock Berettas have used
since 1924.
That type of locking system is,you know, is in the DT11.
In the SL2 and the SL3, berettadeparted from that and went to
(36:14):
a modified BOSS-type lockingsystem where it uses a BOSS
locking bolt, which is thatcentral axis locking bolt, but
they retained the recoilshoulders that were traditional
and very, very, very obviouswhen you see the side of a beret
of those trapezoidal shouldersor the recoil shoulders.
They retain that aspect of them.
(36:36):
So the sl2 and the sl3 havethis modified boss locking
system, whereas the dt11 usesthe older kirsten style lock.
Um, as far as the triggerassembly is concerned, the the
the sl2 target gun uses atrigger assembly which is almost
(36:56):
identical to the dt11 triggerassembly and that it is a
detachable trigger assembly.
Uh, the difference basically isis only in the hammers because
of the different arrangement inthe firing pins.
The SL3 is a side-plated gunwhich is more of a game gun.
(37:17):
You know they do build up a1232 Sporter on that one, but
it's the SL3 being more of agame-style gun.
It has a fixed trigger battery,the SL3, being more of a game
style gun has a fixed triggerbattery, whereas the SL2 has the
detachable type battery.
You know also the, you know theSL2, they've got a whole new
(37:39):
barrel profile.
You know now and and again,it's it's.
It's interesting because youknow the, the, the, the, the
DT11 had the super long forcingcone, um, and then an overbore
down to the choke and in the, inthe sl2 they've got pretty much
the same forcing cone.
I think it's about a centimetershorter but it's actually got a
(38:02):
tighter parallel section of theactual bore before the choke
and then it's got a much longerscrew choke.
And you know I haven't had theopportunity to do any, any, any
pattern performance shooting oranything, um.
I did have the opportunity toshoot the SL2 over in Lenado, um
, in in Italy, at the at theproduct launch and, and I shot a
(38:23):
, a bunker trap gun and asporting gun at Lenado on.
You know they just set up some,some targets and threw like a
five stand and and it wasimpressive, it, it the gun
handled real well for me, um,and you know I felt as though
you know, recoil doesn't reallybother me that much, but you
know I would say I I felt very,very good in the way that the
(38:51):
gun moved in my hands underrecoil.
So I I think that you know, Ithink it's going to be a pretty
positive thing for Beretta.
Um, albeit it's it's going tobe produced in the custom shop
in very, very limited quantities, so they're not going to be
available like a DT 11 is.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Oh no not no not at all.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
I mean it'll maybe, maybe in several years down the
road, you know they'll they'llup their production.
But you know, know, I thinkwe've got, I think I've got two
dozen guns on order.
Uh, most of them are headedguns, so that you know again,
you know we can do the same dealthat we do with the dp-11 a
person buys an sl2 from us,we'll stock the gun to their
dimensions.
(39:22):
Um, you know, and and and worka deal on that.
Um, the few guns we've gotcoming in in in 2024, um have
already been sold and you knowwe're taking orders for uh, 2025
.
One of the one of the neatthings, speaking of that wood
that we're we're we're talkingabout is, uh, when I was over in
Italy, of course, I, you know,I work in Italy a lot Um, you
(39:45):
know, I went to the factory andI, you know, I handpicked about
two dozen blanks for ourproduction of the SL2s.
So I went through and, of course, when you cull through several
hundred blanks, you pick out thebest ones.
You have really nice wood andwhat we did is we numbered those
blanks and assigned them tocertain guns.
(40:06):
So, for example, a person couldgo to our website and look at
the sl2s now and they couldchoose a specific gun with a
specific blank on it and theywould know what their wood was
going to be.
Um, that's nice, yeah, so soyou're not, you're not buying a
pig in a poke because you'rebuying a deluxe gun.
You know, those guns have gradefour wood, and I mean grade
(40:26):
four can be the lower end or itcan be the higher end, and you
know, of course these are allgoing to be on the higher end
because I, I personally handselected all the blanks you know
for for these so you get the,the.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Does the four end come with it as well?
As?
Speaker 3 (40:41):
like you, oh yes okay , yeah, no, no, the the four end
will come.
The four end will come to usfinished, but without any finish
on it, gotcha.
So again, that's how it worksfor us.
We just have to make a stock onthe outside, because it's
already got a block of woodattached to it.
(41:01):
So this is how we're able toreally save the client some
money.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I'm going through these SL3s on your website right
now.
Unbelievable looking wood,you're right, I mean you.
You can see them.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Well, you know, that's what you get.
You know you, you know I andagain I mean people say I'm, I'm
interested in, you know, buyinga, a nice Beretta or a Parazzi
or a Zoli or something like that.
And I said, look, if you, ifyou really want to have a good
time, we'll make arrangements,we'll.
You get on a flight, fly overthere, go tour the factory, you
know, um, they'll, they'll,they'll fit you there.
(41:33):
You'll be able to select yourwood.
You'll have a whole newappreciation for what that
firearm really is Once you'vegone to one of these factories
and see what really goes intoproducing something like this.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, that's amazing.
I've never been over there.
I'd love to go just to see whatyou see all the time.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Maybe we ought to work up a trip for you.
Let's go.
I could give you a heck of atour, justin, I know it.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
That's why I brought it up Rich.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Let's ride over there .
Well, 2025 will be right aroundthe corner.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
You're right.
Do you see the SL?
I know Anthony's now shootingan sl2.
Do you see that gun?
Do you think it will get biggeror do you think it's going to
be kind of one of those littleniche things?
Speaker 3 (42:21):
because I think the gun is going to be.
I think the gun is going to bevery, very successful from the
standpoint that it is going tobe a very durable um and good
shooting gun.
Now, you know it's an expensivegun.
You know you're up in thearound $20,000,.
You know is is sort of whereyou're, is sort of where you're
at Um.
You know that's, that's a,that's a.
(42:43):
That's quite a check to cut Um.
However, I mean we see a lot ofParazzis and Kreghoffs and you
know the Kohlars and some of theupgrade.
You know the engraved BlaserF3s Um.
You know there are folks outthere that really like having
the.
You know the best that theyfeel as though, that that they
can have Um.
So I I do think it's going tobe a successful product.
(43:05):
Do I think that you know you'rethat you're going to see them
around like some of the othermore common guns?
No, I don't.
I mean I think the productionis always going to be somewhat
limited, um, and and I uh again,I think that you know the the
the price point is, you knowit's right up there.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
What do you think about the lines on the SL2?
I know that they talked aboutthat for a long time.
How they looked, you know, likea Lamborghini.
I think they said.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, you know it's
sort of the, the Euro style.
Um, you know, and, and I thinkyou know myself, you know I, I'm
a classic guy, you know I.
You know the, the, the beautyof a, of a British boss action
gun, you know, in terms of thatstyling is is what really
excites me.
Um, you know so it's you, thatstyling is is what really
(43:52):
excites me.
Um, you know so it's.
You know the, the.
You know the actual style ofthe gun I think is going to
really appeal to a, to, you know, potentially a younger crowd,
certainly the.
You know the folks that areinto the.
You know the, uh, the autoracing and that kind of thing
will will probably appreciate.
You know some of that kind ofstyling.
Um, I'll tell you that thoseshapes make it a hell of a lot
harder to stock yeah, I was justthinking that like it's got to
(44:12):
be crazy to stock that gun yeahso you've got all this stuff in
stock, other than maybe the sl2s, because they're spoken for
until 25, correct?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
yeah, we've got, we've got quite an inventory,
yeah, yeah you sell the auto,you know autoloaders, you sell
it all oh, oh yeah, we do.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
You know we do the Berettas, we do the Colpros.
You know we've done those foryears.
You know where we've takengussium up.
You know Jim Belgard, ourgunsmith in the main shop.
He does a great trigger job.
You know he turns those A400triggers into rifle triggers for
all practical purposes.
And you know, uh, you know wedo everything from just
(44:51):
cerakoting the, the gun basic,to, you know, doing fairly
ornamental um, you know, fullyengraved receivers and custom
stocks and forends.
We do the factory upgrade.
You know wood sets.
So you know the, the a400 is agreat tool.
You know you, look, look, whatjoe finisi has accomplished with
it.
You know, and, uh, I think, Ithink des Edmonds is is shooting
(45:12):
an a 400 now.
And you know Beretta semi autos, um, you know, regardless of
the model of, you know they'repretty legendary and clay target
sports.
And you know, in and in thefield as well.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, all right.
So, uh, one more thing, andI'll let you go.
I know you're busy, you still,you're still doing?
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I'm not, I'm not busy , you know, honestly, I'm.
I'm up here in the mainmountains right now, sitting in
my, in my camp, you know,overlooking the mountains and a
nice sunset.
So, um, I'm happy to, I'm happyto visit with you.
I'm not, I'm not real pushed up.
I've got a few days away andthen I'm going to get back to uh
, the, the Harpswell main shop,down on the coast on Saturday
(45:50):
morning.
How's the weather?
It's fantastic buddy 70 degreesand sunny Wow.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
That must be nice.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
You'll take that, won't you?
Speaker 2 (45:59):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
Right now I will yeah , right now.
You will.
Yeah.
I know you folks are having aheat wave down there.
I got it.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
It's always something it feels like you get out of
the shower as soon as you walkoutside with your clothes on.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I mean, it's just you know, you've been down there.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
So, you're still doing the cold chokes right.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
We still are doing the cold chokes.
Yeah, yeah, we, we absolutelyare.
You know we're.
We've um, we've got a um, we'vegot a special um model coming
out with Rizzini which is a, aspecial makeup for, for cold
gunsmithing.
I don't want to talk too muchabout it.
We don't have it yet, but youknow it's something that they're
building, that, uh, that we'vespecced out and we we've
(46:38):
produced um, you know our, ourprecision chokes, you know for
that model and and that ought tobe out in the next, uh, next 60
days or so.
But, uh, you know we're just, uh, you know the choke tubes are.
It's a limited production, butyou know we're just, you know
the choke tubes it's a limitedproduction for us.
You know we're doing theBeretta OBHP chokes.
We've had tremendous successwith the comments that we've had
(47:00):
with the shooters, the waythose chokes perform for them.
But you know we're never goingto be a big choke tube maker.
You know it's really a boutiqueproduct for us, choke tube
maker.
You know it's, uh, it's reallya boutique product for us, um,
you know for, you know for someof our own, you know in-house
custom work, um, and and again,you know some retail sales.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, you, you and John, are really, or your whole
company is really involved withthe youth, which I like.
Talk about that just for asecond, how you help these kids
and how you want to see thesekids in the future.
Invest a little bit of time nowwith these kids and in the
(47:43):
future you have great humanbeings.
I mean, I just think that it'samazing that you two, or your
whole company, is involved withthe youth like you are.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Well, you know, I believe that you know, to live
right, it can't be totally,totally self-serving.
You know, I think we all shouldlook in our heart and be
willing to give something back.
And you know, I think if youlook at what's going on around
the world and our society, youknow these days we owe it to the
(48:13):
youth, you know, to try andgive them opportunities, you
know, to grow and to develop andto be surrounded by people that
have, you know, good ethics.
You know, and positiveattitudes.
And I think that we see, youknow, in the shooting
communities, most of the peopleare good people.
You know they're good folks andyou know, we've noticed that.
(48:35):
You know that the parents thathave these youth shooters, these
folks are really working withtheir kids, you know, to try and
raise them right, and you knowso.
Therefore, we look at this, wewant to do everything we can do
to help, you know, these parentskeep their youths in the sport,
keep them around the you knowthe shooters and keep them in it
(48:57):
.
You know.
So we, you know we have ourlittle thing, team Cole, which
is really my wife's passion.
I have to give her really thecredit because, you know she's
the one who really hasinteracted with these young
folks and their parents and hasdone so much to try and help
them.
We don't really have anythingformal, it's really on a
(49:17):
case-by-case basis.
We try and do what we can we dosponsor some of the youth
shoots and try and give somethings to some of the teams.
You know where we can.
Anybody that's you know in thisbusiness knows that.
You know it's not aget-rich-quick scheme, you know.
So we're limited, you know,financially in terms of what
(49:39):
we're able to do.
But we want to do everythingthat we can.
You know, and I'd love to seesome of the other dealers and
the other manufacturers sort oftake up that torch and realize
that you know, these youngpeople are going to be the ones
that form the future that we'reall going to retire into.
And, uh, you know we, we wouldbe well served to to do
everything we can for the, youknow, for these young shooters
(50:01):
in our sport.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great thing that you do.
You know that your, your wholecompany, does uh what you got
planned for this year.
I do you know your, your wholecompany, does uh what you got
planned for this year.
I know you're having a goodtime right now.
What do you?
What's your plans for the restof the year Are?
Speaker 3 (50:16):
you going to be at any of these tournaments?
Or Well, I'm going to be.
I, honestly, myself, personally, I'm going to go to the Vermont
state shoot because I'm up herein Maine working the main shop,
um, you know, for the summer.
So I'm going to get over there.
I'm going to go over there andI'm probably going to try and
shoot some of those targets withthose folks over there.
Gianna Santo is one of oursponsored shooters and she'll be
over there.
That's her home club and so wewant to go over and see her and
(50:38):
her family.
And of course, I'll be at theNationals.
I always enjoy seeing all of ourfolks at the Nationals.
You know I figure we have.
You know we have our threefull-time locations.
And then we have, you know, inMarengo, ohio, for the SCTP.
You know we have a.
You know we have a little storethere and we'll be there.
We'll be sending people outthere for the for the duration
of the SCTP shoot for the kidsthere.
(50:59):
But you know, other than youknow, people ask me are you
going to go to the regionals andthis, that and the other?
And you know we're really notgoing to this year.
I think that you know we'regoing to try and stay right in
the shop, do the work that we'vegot there.
You know all of our shops havegot a lot of work.
We've got a lot of things thatare, you know, that are going on
(51:21):
a lot of customers' jobs.
And you know, I think we'regoing to do what we do best and
that's do the gunsmithing, youknow, do the service work, the
custom jobs and, you know,continue to try and develop
worthwhile products.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Well, listen, you and John have a good time, and you
know.
Get back to work when you canand I'll be in touch with you,
and if you need anything, justholler.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
I appreciate you talking to me tonight Awful,
nice, awful nice talking to youthere.
Yeah, nice talking to you.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Hopefully I see you here soon.
I know I'll see you atNationals, if not.
Speaker 3 (51:48):
Sounds good, buddy Be well.
Welcome to Shotgun Sports USA.
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Speaker 2 (00:54):
On today's show.
We're glad to have the manbehind Coalfine Guns and
Gunsmithing.
His wealth of knowledge neverfails to impress.
If you're curious about thecraftsmanship of custom stocks
and the precision of patternduplication, this is the episode
for you.
Also, stay tuned for more onyour favorite shotguns like
Beretta, perazzi, blaser andZoli.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Let's welcome back the one again hi, justin, nice
to talk to you this evening.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, you know I've been trying to do this.
I think I talked to you, sawJack Links or something, and I
said you know, rich, I need toget you back on the show and
you've been so busy witheverything you've got going on
and we're finally getting aroundto doing this.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
No, it's good.
It's good to hear from you.
It's been a busy year.
A lot of you know been a lot ofgrowth in the business, a lot
of changes.
You know sometimes changes arepainful, but all the changes
have been good.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I know, you know I was going to mention that you
I've noticed your website'sredesigned.
I mean, I've talked todifferent people.
That's working for you.
Now, what is Coal Gun doing andwhere do you you know?
Where are you planning to takethis?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Sure, sure.
Well, you know we're kind ofgrowing like the grass is.
You know we're doing itorganically, from the sense that
you know we're trying to lookat.
You know what our areas ofexpertise are and you know what
are the demands of themarketplace, demands of the
marketplace, and then try andput our energy into the, the,
the, the areas whereby you knowwe can utilize our expertise and
(02:49):
provide service for folks.
Um, you know the website, ofcourse that's, you know that's
an ongoing thing.
You know technology is, youknow, changes by the day.
You know we've had a websitefor many, many, many years and
and, uh, you know, although I'mnot, you know, well-versed with
that, with that technology, youknow I'm, you know, pretty much
(03:11):
a guy who was, you know, trainedwith a hacksaw and a file.
Um, you know, we, we, wecertainly realize the importance
of our website and you know,not only does it, is it in a
place that you know that, thatwe're able to show our product
and sell our product, you know,through our web store.
But you know we try and providemeaningful information, you
know, on it as well, and some ofthe FAQs, and you know just
(03:31):
sort of some of theannouncements and things that we
try and kind of get out therefor folks.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, it's really.
It seems like it's never ending, like if you get on here you
can find everything you want tofind out about a shotgun, it
seems to me.
I mean you can find.
It seems like you can get partsand wood and you can schedule
all kinds of things and callpeople.
I saw what it is.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Sure, you know, you know there's, there's, there's
so much content.
You know, and and I think thatyou know it's, it's, it's, it's
good and it's bad, because youknow my guys, that sort of work
on the website and you know themarketing people say, huh,
there's too much informationthere.
It's confusing, you know, butfrom my standpoint, I'm a
technician, you know, and I dorealize the value of having a
(04:19):
lot of information, even if it'sdifficult for a person to find
to, to, to find what it is thatthey're really looking for.
You know, the reality is isthat you know there's so much
misinformation.
You know, in our industry, youknow, particularly on the, you
know the, the technical aspectsof, you know of the guns that
you know.
I, I feel as though it's it's abenefit to our, you know, to
our client, to, you know, have awebsite that really has a lot
(04:43):
of information there that theycan get their teeth into and, of
course, a lot of it too is justproduct.
We've got so many differentthings that are going on now
between our custom stock makingwith the selection of blanks.
I mean, one of the things thatwe've done is that we've taken
photos of all of our, all of ourupgrade gunstock blanks that we
(05:06):
use to to make custom stocksbecause so many of our clients
are unable to travel.
You know, to one of ourlocations where we do this kind
of work that you know the um,you know a lot of it's done by
by phone and by by email anddigital photography and and you
know having having a lot of thethe blanks and then the upgrade
wood sets for the Berettas thatwe you know that we have there
(05:28):
Um, you know it just.
It just gives people or youknow the resource to get on
there and get the informationthey're looking for, find the
product they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And all I was.
I was sitting here.
It's kind of funny you broughtthat up.
I'm sitting here on the woodpage right now, for DT11 is just
going through them.
All of this stuff on yourwebsite is actually at your one
of your locations, right?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Everything but the unmachined blanks.
You know, um, you know it's,it's one of our.
You know we've got threelocations, of course.
You know we've got the originallocation in Harpswell, maine,
and then the Naples Floridalocation and, uh, the San
Antonio at the NSC location.
So you know everything that ison our web page is in one of
(06:08):
those three shops, with theexception of the blanks that are
not machined for a specific gun, because you know I have a
partner in Marcheno, italy, thatis a real top-notch expert in
5-axis CNC and what we do is weutilize his services to do a lot
of the internal machining andpreparation of the blanks.
(06:29):
When we make custom stocks,sometimes we don't have these
patterns ourselves, and so youknow we have him do that
internal machining and then sendthe blank to us and then we set
it up on our CNC system.
And you know we work from ascan or a digital file that you
know that we have, that we'vedeveloped, you know, to do the
(06:51):
outside profiling, All right.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Talk about that internal.
What you're talking about asfar as inletting the wood, I'm
assuming is what you mean,correct?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, exactly, you know.
So, just you know, to make surethat you know my terminology is
correct, you know when I referto inletting I'm talking about.
You know the drilling of thestop bolt hole up through the
center of the blank and how itrelates then to the internal
machining where all of theclearance is given for the wood
(07:23):
so that it can slide onto thereceiver without having any gaps
or anything you know around it.
And uh, you know we, we do allthat with, uh, with cnc
technology, because you know thetechnology in effect is perfect
.
When you, you know, when youhave a model that you've
corrected, that you've created,um, you know the machine will
always follow that model withoutfail and barring a cutter
(07:49):
breaking or your part slippingin its fixture, you always get
in effect a perfect duplicationof the computer program that
you've set up to to machine.
And you know that's soimportant in competition guns,
um, because the guns, you knowthey take such a beating under
(08:12):
recoil and the number of shotsthat you know that the that the
competitive shooters fire, youknow, in these guns it's it's
really important to have thatinternal work done correctly so
there's as much wood on theinside as there can possibly be
just leaving enough clearancefor the parts to be able to move
what are if?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
if this wasn't done correctly through a cnc like
you're talking about, what couldhappen?
Would the gun not?
Would the gun not cycle?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
I mean, sure?
Well, I mean that the stock,the stock would break.
Um, the stock could, could,move, you know, and and and move
around on the receiver, um, andyou know, have a different feel
to the shooter.
Uh, that would generally leadto breaking, or or again, um,
you could, you could have whatyou said, justin you could have
(09:01):
a failure to fire, you couldhave, you know, hammers or sears
, trigger components orsomething, cocking rods, uh,
cocking cams could rub on theinletting on the inside and be,
you know, be, be, obstructed bythe wood, and the gun would not
function properly.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, yeah, so it's important to have that right.
And uh, so talk about.
You just mentioned the CNC onthe inside.
All right, Well, we just wentover to you have a CNC machine
for the outside at one of yourshops.
Is it in Maine?
Is that where it's at?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
That's, that's in Maine.
Yeah, my, my oldest son, larry,uh, you know, of course he's
grown up at the bench and youknow, went down the.
You know the the manufacturingroute with, uh, um, precision
machining metals primarily, buthe, you know, he does the wood.
We have one machine that's athree-axis CNC with a point
(09:52):
counterpoint set up on it andbasically that machine is
dedicated just to machiningstocks and you know basically
what we do is.
You know we have.
You know we have a fixture thatwe put the machined blank.
That's been inlet, it's CNCinlet, and we put that on the
fixture and the fixture holds itand then the machine will cut
(10:15):
the outside of that stock blankto whatever the program is that
the machine has been commanded.
You know to run, that themachine has been commanded you
know to run and you know.
So basically you know the.
The.
The challenge for us alwaysbecause you know we're not doing
any production, we're, we'remaking one at a time.
You know everything is customthe challenge is always how do
(10:36):
you get that external dimension?
You know, you know we talkabout people doing fittings and
so on and so forth, and you knowwhen, when, you know when a
shooter, if they know what theirstock dimensions are.
Um, and they've they've workedwith someone like you know, we
work with jim greenwood a lot.
You know jim, jim's very, verygood at doing pattern stocks and
and, uh, of course, he's goodat doing finish sets as well.
(10:57):
I mean, he's a, you know, he'sa, uh, you know, a real ace at
his craft.
Um, but he's one man and he'sbusy and and you know.
So what what we do is, uh, wewould take a pattern stock that
that a shooter has, that they'recomfortable with.
We set that up on a fixture andwe do a scan of that, you know.
So it's a digital laser scannerthat scans that and and then we
(11:21):
edit that scan and create a CADmodel that we then command the
CNC system to follow on thatblank that has been set up on
that machine, and that CNCmachine, of course, will then
duplicate on that blank anabsolute perfect model of what
(11:42):
that scan was from the shooter'spattern stock.
Um, so that's, that's a perfectsituation.
If somebody's got a patternstock that they want to have
duplicated, this is a perfectway to do it, because there just
isn't any margin of error.
Um, generally speaking, youknow, when we get someone's
pattern stock, you know we'vegot to take all the ripples and
waves and things out of itbecause when, when you scan,
(12:06):
basically you're you know you'regoing to get a perfect
duplication.
So if there's, if there are anyinsufficiencies or problems in
the pattern stock, we have to ofcourse correct that prior to
the scanning.
The other way is we have anumber of, you know, different
grip models and things thatwe've created from a variety of
(12:28):
stocks.
And if an individual doesn'thave a pattern stock, if we can
get their stock dimensions fromthem and we understand what
their grip size is, we will usethe CNC system and machine a
stock that is basically finishedin the grip area.
We leave the palm swell alittle bit large and then we
leave the back end oversized andwe use the old-school method by
(12:50):
hand with a spokeshave andcabinetmaker's rasps and side
grinders with rasp discs on themand we basically finish the
dimensional aspects of the buttend of the gun, you know, by
hand for the shooter.
And when we do it like that,generally what we want to do is
(13:11):
we'll want to send it to theclient in the white, so we've
left a little bit more materialon it so that they can feel it,
and then we work on it again,you know, after they've had a
chance to shoot the gun a littlebit and return it to us with a
little bit of commentary andcritique on.
You know what, what the changesneed to be.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
So a lot of this stuff can be done remotely from
what you're telling me, yes, it,it can, yeah, it sure can.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I mean, you know the the best, obviously the best
case scenario is you know you'vegot the customer right there in
the shop and you can, you knowyou can work with them
one-on-one.
But you know we, we do, youknow most all of this work in in
our naples florida shop, in ourharps for main shop.
And you know, for folks thatare out on the west coast or
whatever, uh, travel is notnecessarily, you know, all that
(13:57):
convenient for them.
Um, so, with you know, withbeing able to do videos and and,
uh, facetime, and that todayit's it's so easy to communicate
around these things that youknow we've had very, very good
success with the processes thatwe use.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Now, can you take a?
This is I was just thinkingthis if someone's shooting a
DT11, or just we'll use a DTOkay, if someone's shooting a
DT11 and they also have an A400that they want the same kind of
stock on, can you convert theirstock or can you build one to
fit the A400 with the samedimensions as the DT11?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
We can closely.
It really depends upon the grip.
It really depends upon the gripIn your semi-autos because of
either the action spring tube orthe stock bolt, the angle that
the stock bolt comes off of asemi-auto, where the top of the
grip is, ends up being a littlebit higher than what you can get
(14:57):
on most over-unders, becausethe axis of the draw bolt ends
up being a little bit lower.
And so if a person wants, for,for example, a real deep trough
at the top of the grip andthey've got that on their over
under, you can't accomplish thaton a semi-auto because you
break through the hole that'srequired for the, the stock bolt
, to go up through.
And again, that's not done froma scan.
(15:19):
That has to be done by handbecause you know the, the, the
scan model.
For example, say, we scan a,you know a k80, and now we, we
can make a perfect copy of thatk80 stock, but to make you can't
utilize that scan on asemi-auto because you know all.
Basically, we're trying toachieve the same dimensions, but
(15:41):
but the inletting is completelydifferent, makes sense.
So, basically we do that the oldschool way, using a drop stick
and a set of calipers.
We take all the measurementsfrom the one gun and then we
basically do the inletting byCNC.
But we do all of the work tomake the stock by hand Nice.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
On the outside we do all of the uh, the work to make
the stock by hand.
Nice, uh, I guess the next stepis, once you have this stock
done, you can I know that youoffer a hand checkering machine,
checkering whatever kind ofcheckering you want.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, sure, sure, you know.
Now.
Now, you know you get to your,you get to your finish, you know
, and you're finishing yourcheckering and that that's,
that's all cosmetic.
You know that's, that's um,that's the bling you know of it.
Um, I guess we would call fancywood bling, because you know
most, most guys don't want acustom stock if they don't have
a pretty attractive lookingpiece of wood.
But you know, the checkering wedo, we, we do, do we do um,
(16:37):
laser checkering.
You know, which again iscomputer driven laser.
Um, and, and you know that'sthat's quick turnaround time, um
, you know it's, it's uh, how dowe say it doesn't have the, the
artistic aspect that handcheckering does for some people.
They're perfectly happy withthat.
(16:57):
It depends upon the.
You know the use, you know whattheir, what their own
preferences.
I have, uh, we don't do ourhand checkering in-house.
You know that's a very specificskill set and you know I
learned to do it many, manyyears ago and got to do it well
enough to know that I didn'twant to do it.
So you know, it takes somebodythat's got great concentration
(17:21):
and continuing attention todetail, and you know I have just
enough attention deficitdisorder that I that I I want to
bounce around a little bit toomuch, but um, we use, uh, john
Reese is out in Montana and umand um, um, john, what's the?
Uh Ron, ron Buck, I'm sorry,it's been a long day.
Ron Buck is over here on theEast coast.
(17:41):
Um, ron Buck, I'm sorry, it'sbeen a long day.
Ron Buck is over here on theEast Coast and you know those
two guys are really really goodand you know they're both
artisans and have been doing youknow checkering not only
(18:02):
checkering, but carving.
You know ornamental carving,like fish scales, and you know
some of the oak leaf clustersand things like that, which you
know we don't do too much ofthat.
But you know these fellows arecapable of doing it and you know
they're a couple of the best inthe business.
There are other people outthere, you know, that are good
as well, but those are the twofellows that we use to do the
hand checkering.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
So you know when we produce the stock in forend, if
it's going to be hand checkering, we box it up and send it to
one of those gentlemen.
I would think that handcheckering would be just as
tedious as maybe engraving ashotgun, wouldn't you think, or
am I wrong?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Well, I found it very , very tedious and, of course, I
can't compare it to engraving,justin, because I don't have the
artistic uh bent to to be ableto engrave.
I youve you know.
So, um, I, I knew I wasn'tgoing to be in an engraver right
off the bat.
So you know I, I don't have anyexperience, you know I, I have
a number of friends that are,that are really, really
(18:55):
accomplished master engraversand I have tremendous respect
for their skill.
Um, and I think that what wouldyou or I might consider to be
tedious, you know they look atas, uh, you know just a
tremendous passion in terms ofyou know, their, what their,
their ability to to create.
You know this, this incredibleartwork, you know, in steel and
(19:17):
aluminum it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I've watched some of it online and it's I mean
working under magnifying glassesand having a steady hand like
that.
I don't even know if I couldwrite my name with you know some
of the tools I've gotten.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Well, it's pretty remarkable, you know, and, and I
think there are probably somevery, very good videos now, you
know, on on um, you know thatthe engravers have got out and,
um, you know, there there's somefantastic books.
Um, you, you know, stefanoPedretti is a very good friend
of mine and you know we have adeal with Stefano where we have
(19:51):
a Parazzi grade, that is ourdedicated grade.
It's a custom Parazzi, it'scalled SCC grade and basically,
you know what it is is it's agun that Parazzi builds for us,
and then it goes to Stefano andStefano does the engraving and
signs it, and then it goes backto Parazzi for heat treatment,
final assembly, and then, andthen we stock them, you know, in
(20:14):
the USA.
So it's a.
You know it's a three-wayproject and it's a.
It's a.
It's a lot of fun because, youknow, working with Stefano, he's
he's so creative and is able todo such incredible work in
terms of these engravings.
He's so well known for his dogs.
He's such an expert with theanatomy.
(20:37):
When you look at a Pedrettiengraved dog, you'll see the
dog's tongue, you'll see thespittle in his face.
You'll see the mist on his.
You'll see the spittle in hisface.
You'll see that.
You know the, the, the mist onhis breath, you know as he, as
he, flushes a bird.
It's, it's, absolutelymagnificent yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
So let's we're on shotgun stocks.
All right, we've, we've.
Let's back up to this, becauseyou're gonna lose, lose me in
that Green Graven stuff and Idon't have any idea what all
that stuff is or how to do it.
So the finishes on a shotgunstock, what would you say would
be the most popular, the leastpopular or the most durable?
(21:15):
What?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
would you recommend?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
How about that?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I think that a lot of it depends upon, again, the
preference of the owner and theuse of the shotgun.
There are two basic types offinishes that there really are.
You've got oil finish, which isthe old, traditional type
finish.
There are a lot of differentkinds of oil that are used.
(21:42):
Most of the oils are going tobe boiled linseed oil with a
little bit of Japan dryer andtung oil in it, and that's going
to be a good oil finish that'sgoing to give reasonable
resistance to water andperspiration.
It's not that durable, okay.
Your other finish is going to belike your conversion varnishes,
(22:05):
or epoxy, two-party poxies andthose, uh, synthetic type
finishes.
You know polyurethane, um, youknow is is a polyurethane
varnishes, is is one of thosethat we, you know, consider a
hard finish.
Um, those hard finishes, um arevery, very durable until they
become damaged.
They're very difficult torepair, you know.
(22:28):
So, for example, you know, whenyou the gun comes off the cart.
You know, as we unfortunatelysee from time to time, if you've
got a hard finish on the gun,the only thing you can really do
to repair that is is tocompletely strip the finish off
and start, you know, down tobare wood and and refinish the
(22:50):
gun completely and it's, it's,it's caught.
It's not particularly costeffective and, uh, you don't
always get a great result.
A lot of times the checkeringwill be damaged in the process
of removing.
You know the, the, you knowthis, this old finish, um, oil
finish.
On the other hand, if you getscratches and chase and things,
it's, it's very, very easy torepair it without doing a
(23:12):
complete refinish job, but it'snot durable.
You know, um, in the South wegenerally say, well, target guns
in the South use hard finishesbecause they're they're going're
gonna, it's gonna stand up tothe perspiration and the
whiskers and some of the rainthat you, that you, that you see
down there hunting guns, youknow they.
(23:34):
You know they don't get as muchuse, typically speaking, and
people tend to like a little bitmore of the classic look on the
hunting guns.
So you know we lean towards theoil finishes.
You know, on hunting guns ortarget guns that are primarily
used, uh, you know, up north or,you know, in in drier climates
(23:55):
that's interesting, how that isthat's you know, yeah, yeah, I
mean most of the manufacturerslike, for example, krighoff,
parazzi, parazzi, kolar.
They use hard finishes, sprayedfinishes, zolli.
They're distributed from ZolliInternational.
They use the hard finish.
(24:16):
Blaser F3s are an oil varnish,an oil varnish.
The Zollis that we have builtby Zolli for coal gunsmithing.
We have an option where they doa nice oil finish.
It's a little bit more of atraditional look.
Beretta DT11s, those are allwhat we call a soft oil finish.
(24:38):
It's not really an oil varnish,it's more of a matte finish and
, again, real easy to repair.
But again, so much of it.
Justin, is what does a personlike?
The looks of the guy that likesthat thick, real glossy look.
You can't really get that thicklook with oil, so you've got to
(25:02):
go.
You know you've got to go withthis, the sprayed um, uh type
conversion varnish or epoxyfinishes for that.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, and I'm sure it depends, you know, with me.
I like the way all finisheslook.
I like the way both of themlook, and I think that I would
like to have an oil finish stock, but I know that I don't take
care of it like I should, soI'll just go for the harder
finish.
Sure, the way I look at it.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, that's the thing.
The oil finish stocks.
They require more care, theyreally do.
Or else in the south, where youare, the perspiration and the
humidity is real hard on thatfinish and the finish chase off
and it just looks awful in notime at all.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
And if you don't, want to, if you don't want to
sort of baby it and take care ofit in that kind of a an
environment it's, you're much,much better off to have the hard
finish.
You know, rich, I've I've knowny'all for several years now and
I've always thought of you asthe Beretta guys, the Beretta
people you know.
But you you have a whole lotmore there than just Beretta.
I mean, like you've talkedabout Zoli's and and Pirazzi's,
and is Zoli doing somethingexclusive with you at that?
What you just said, they buildguns for you.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Um, yeah, zoli, Zoli builds some guns for us with uh,
instead of the hard finish, um,you know, with with a really
well-done oil finish.
It's a semi-glossy oil finishand it's more for the individual
that likes that more classicappearance in a gun.
(26:36):
Zoli has really come a longways.
Norbert Hausman has done afantastic job.
Most anybody who's listening tothis podcast is going to know
who Norbert was, from his, histenure with uh, with Brighoff as
the service manager, butNorbert's uh, you know, a real
knowledgeable gun guy, veryaccomplished gunsmith, and and,
um, you know, he's really helpeduh, zoli, you know, tune their
(26:57):
guns for the, you know, for theU S market, um, and they've done
some interesting things.
So we've got some guns now, youknow, from Zoli, not only with
the oil finish, which is, youknow, which is cosmetic, but
with lighter weight barrels, youknow.
You know they've got, they'vegot barrels that are several
ounces lighter than than thestandard guns, you know.
So, for the individual that youknow doesn't want a real heavy
(27:20):
gun and is trying to keep theweight off the front end of the
gun but still wants a long setof barrels, this is, this is a
great option that they offer.
So there there are a lot, of, alot of little things that can
be done, you know, with, withZoli and and, like you said, you
know we're, we've really beenknown.
Cold Gun Spilling has reallybeen known for Beretta, you know
, and of course that was becauseI was trained by Beretta and
you know I've always had, youknow, quite a loyalty there.
(27:42):
I've, you know, been a Cold GunSpilling.
Has been a warranty repairservice center for, you know,
beretta shotguns and theirpremium guns for, you know, for
many years.
But you know it's only anatural lateral move to.
You know, some of the othermanufacturers.
Like you know, we do a lot ofwork with Parazzi.
You know we sell a lot ofParazzi guns.
(28:02):
We, you know we, we sell a lotof parazzi guns.
We, you know, we stock them.
We do the custom stocks on onthe parazzis as well.
Um, when um, you know rizzini,we do, we do a lot with rizzini.
You know another, it's rizzinib?
Um which is a, you know, a goodquality, moderately priced over
under um out of marcano, italy.
Uh, whether we're US servicecenter for them as well.
(28:26):
When Andre Goyap came on fromBlaser, of course we picked up
the Blaser line becauseeverybody that knows Blaser
knows that Andre is the Blaserguru.
So that gives us anotherservice to provide our clientele
.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, I mean that's what I didn't expect or I didn't
think of when I was, you know,looking at your site and I'm
thinking, well, he's got alittle bit of everything.
I mean it's not just Beretta's,so it's it's you're.
You're talking about Parazzicustom stocks.
I don't hear a lot of peopleshoot parrots because I'm around
(29:10):
a bunch of Beretta guys, but Iknow they're out there and I
didn't know that you did that.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
I guess you do it for a little bit of everything.
Yeah, we do it for a little bitof everything, you know.
I mean again, you know we'vegot to, we've got to run our
business based upon ourstrengths.
Obviously you know and you know, and our strength is, you know
we're basically custom.
You know taking factory gunsand applying certain custom
features.
You know to the guns that youknow that we have the skillset
(29:32):
to, you know to, to apply and ofcourse you as a, as a
competitive shooter, understandhow important having a stock is
that fits you and you know.
So we, we've really spent thetime to, you know, to learn to
make proper stocks and you knowand apply that.
That technology that you know,that we've, that we've learned
with um.
You know to the, the, the othermanufacturers that we, that we
(29:56):
work with.
So you know, for example, youknow we, you know we do the.
You know we buy the, the DT11Berettas We've got the SL2s
going now and the SL3s and theParazzis.
We buy those guns with headedblanks right from the factory.
So it comes to us just with ablock of wood on it for a
buttstock and that saves theconsumer a heck of a lot of
(30:19):
money and time because we haveforegone this inletletting
process that we have to go.
You know that we have to gothrough.
We can take that gunimmediately and basically
machine a custom stock.
So you know, in many caseswe're down to an eight-week
turnaround time, you know, to beable to take somebody's order,
(30:42):
produce them a custom stock,finish and check it and deliver
it in their hands.
And you know it just stands toreason for us to offer that for
more than just the Beretta brand.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, yeah, you just brought up a minute ago the DT11
headed stock guns.
I can remember years back youwere doing this and selling them
at a deal.
I mean, you could buy a DT11with your own stock on it.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Right, that's right.
You can do that right off theshelf.
Because what we do, justin, iswhen somebody buys the gun from
us, we don't have to charge themthe price of a full custom
stock, because it's already gota headed blank on it.
All we're doing is half the job.
(31:31):
We're not doing the completejob.
We don't have to make a stockand a forearm, so you're not
spending thousands of dollarsafter you've bought a gun to put
a stock that fits you on it.
You know it's.
It's kind of the one, the onestop.
You know one stop shop, youknow you, you, you buy the gun.
We've got a little bit ofprofit in the gun.
We can lower our labor costsbecause there isn't quite as
(31:52):
much labor in that, and so we wecan offer, you know, a very
dramatic price reduction, youknow, um, as opposed to what it
would cost to buy the gun andthen have it custom stocked.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, that's, which is a great idea.
I mean, I've always thoughtthat was a a really cool thing
to do was to combine that and dowhat you're doing, I mean, and
get a custom gun for about thesame price as one that's not
custom.
You know that's.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah, it's, it's a little more there.
You know, a few years ago, youknow, brian Buzzy with Beretta
and I were really, you know, wewere really trying to kind of
get this thing going, you know.
So I was working nights fornothing, you know, but we're not
able, we can't sharpen ourpencil quite as much.
Now.
You know where the business hasgrown a lot.
You know we've got I thinkwe've got about 25 employees now
(32:40):
between our three locations.
You know, and and uh, all ofthe people that that you know
that work for us are are skilledindividuals.
You know, um, you know, and anduh.
You know to to retain them is,um, you know we've got to treat
them well, right.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Oh yeah, how hard is it while we're talking about
that, how hard is it to findpeople that you need in your
line of work?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
It just seems like there's not a lot out there.
Yeah, I think that I meanhonestly, I think our industry,
you know, from the consumerstandpoint, is in a little bit
of trouble Because, you know,the handful of competent
high-end over-under gunsmithsare really aging out.
You know, um, you know MitchSchultz is is is closing down.
(33:30):
Um, God bless him.
You know Eddie Anderson passedaway, you know, in this in this
last year.
Um, I'm not a young buckanymore, um, you look like you
are, you know, mike.
Mike, mike, mike, mike, well,I'm trying to stay in shape.
I want to make it last as longas I can, my friend.
But you know, mike, mikeSherman and Lawrence Polinsky,
(33:51):
you know, are, are, you know,are really kind of staking,
taking a step back.
Um, I have, I am doing moretraining now in my business with
my younger gunsmiths than I ammyself physically doing work
anymore, because, you know, Irealize this, this hole is out
there and you know, and you knowI, over the years, you know,
(34:13):
I've been able to hireindividuals really with with no
experience in the trade and thenteach them the way that I would
like them to work.
And you know, you know for forfor each skilled guy that I have
now, I mean, other than AndreGoyer.
Andre is you know he, he, hecame from Blaser, he's very,
very skilled and and I can'ttake any credit for his you know
(34:36):
, for his mastery of the trade,um, but you know, my other guys,
um, you know, have been trainedwithin our, within our, our
company.
Um, reason for that really isbecause I don't think that the
gunsmithing schools today areproviding the kind of curriculum
that is necessary for anindividual to learn how to do
(34:58):
expert gunsmithing on over-undershotguns.
You know now that may change intime, but you know at this
point in time, you know now thatmay change in time, um, but you
know at this, at this point intime, you know the, the
individuals that you know thatwe had hired out of gunsmithing
school, um, really had somestruggles, you know they, they,
they didn't, they weren't reallyup, weren't really up to speed,
(35:18):
um, you know so, I, I, I, yeah,I do have some, I do have some
good guys, you know, and and Ihope to, I hope to treat them
well enough that they want tostay with me.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Right, all right Question and I'm going to see.
I know you can answer this.
I've I've been asked thisquestion and I have no no idea
to the answer.
A DT 11, a SL2 and a SL3.
What are what?
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Okay.
So the DT11, okay, uses the inthe Kirsten type cross lock
locking system that all of theSO side lock Berettas have used
since 1924.
That type of locking system is,you know, is in the DT11.
In the SL2 and the SL3, berettadeparted from that and went to
(36:14):
a modified BOSS-type lockingsystem where it uses a BOSS
locking bolt, which is thatcentral axis locking bolt, but
they retained the recoilshoulders that were traditional
and very, very, very obviouswhen you see the side of a beret
of those trapezoidal shouldersor the recoil shoulders.
They retain that aspect of them.
(36:36):
So the sl2 and the sl3 havethis modified boss locking
system, whereas the dt11 usesthe older kirsten style lock.
Um, as far as the triggerassembly is concerned, the the
the sl2 target gun uses atrigger assembly which is almost
(36:56):
identical to the dt11 triggerassembly and that it is a
detachable trigger assembly.
Uh, the difference basically isis only in the hammers because
of the different arrangement inthe firing pins.
The SL3 is a side-plated gunwhich is more of a game gun.
(37:17):
You know they do build up a1232 Sporter on that one, but
it's the SL3 being more of agame-style gun.
It has a fixed trigger battery,the SL3, being more of a game
style gun has a fixed triggerbattery, whereas the SL2 has the
detachable type battery.
You know also the, you know theSL2, they've got a whole new
(37:39):
barrel profile.
You know now and and again,it's it's.
It's interesting because youknow the, the, the, the, the
DT11 had the super long forcingcone, um, and then an overbore
down to the choke and in the, inthe sl2 they've got pretty much
the same forcing cone.
I think it's about a centimetershorter but it's actually got a
(38:02):
tighter parallel section of theactual bore before the choke
and then it's got a much longerscrew choke.
And you know I haven't had theopportunity to do any, any, any
pattern performance shooting oranything, um.
I did have the opportunity toshoot the SL2 over in Lenado, um
, in in Italy, at the at theproduct launch and, and I shot a
(38:23):
, a bunker trap gun and asporting gun at Lenado on.
You know they just set up some,some targets and threw like a
five stand and and it wasimpressive, it, it the gun
handled real well for me, um,and you know I felt as though
you know, recoil doesn't reallybother me that much, but you
know I would say I I felt very,very good in the way that the
(38:51):
gun moved in my hands underrecoil.
So I I think that you know, Ithink it's going to be a pretty
positive thing for Beretta.
Um, albeit it's it's going tobe produced in the custom shop
in very, very limited quantities, so they're not going to be
available like a DT 11 is.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Oh no not no not at all.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
I mean it'll maybe, maybe in several years down the
road, you know they'll they'llup their production.
But you know, know, I thinkwe've got, I think I've got two
dozen guns on order.
Uh, most of them are headedguns, so that you know again,
you know we can do the same dealthat we do with the dp-11 a
person buys an sl2 from us,we'll stock the gun to their
dimensions.
(39:22):
Um, you know, and and and worka deal on that.
Um, the few guns we've gotcoming in in in 2024, um have
already been sold and you knowwe're taking orders for uh, 2025
.
One of the one of the neatthings, speaking of that wood
that we're we're we're talkingabout is, uh, when I was over in
Italy, of course, I, you know,I work in Italy a lot Um, you
(39:45):
know, I went to the factory andI, you know, I handpicked about
two dozen blanks for ourproduction of the SL2s.
So I went through and, of course, when you cull through several
hundred blanks, you pick out thebest ones.
You have really nice wood andwhat we did is we numbered those
blanks and assigned them tocertain guns.
(40:06):
So, for example, a person couldgo to our website and look at
the sl2s now and they couldchoose a specific gun with a
specific blank on it and theywould know what their wood was
going to be.
Um, that's nice, yeah, so soyou're not, you're not buying a
pig in a poke because you'rebuying a deluxe gun.
You know, those guns have gradefour wood, and I mean grade
(40:26):
four can be the lower end or itcan be the higher end, and you
know, of course these are allgoing to be on the higher end
because I, I personally handselected all the blanks you know
for for these so you get the,the.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Does the four end come with it as well?
As?
Speaker 3 (40:41):
like you, oh yes okay , yeah, no, no, the the four end
will come.
The four end will come to usfinished, but without any finish
on it, gotcha.
So again, that's how it worksfor us.
We just have to make a stock onthe outside, because it's
already got a block of woodattached to it.
(41:01):
So this is how we're able toreally save the client some
money.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I'm going through these SL3s on your website right
now.
Unbelievable looking wood,you're right, I mean you.
You can see them.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Well, you know, that's what you get.
You know you, you know I andagain I mean people say I'm, I'm
interested in, you know, buyinga, a nice Beretta or a Parazzi
or a Zoli or something like that.
And I said, look, if you, ifyou really want to have a good
time, we'll make arrangements,we'll.
You get on a flight, fly overthere, go tour the factory, you
know, um, they'll, they'll,they'll fit you there.
(41:33):
You'll be able to select yourwood.
You'll have a whole newappreciation for what that
firearm really is Once you'vegone to one of these factories
and see what really goes intoproducing something like this.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, that's amazing.
I've never been over there.
I'd love to go just to see whatyou see all the time.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Maybe we ought to work up a trip for you.
Let's go.
I could give you a heck of atour, justin, I know it.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
That's why I brought it up Rich.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Let's ride over there .
Well, 2025 will be right aroundthe corner.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
You're right.
Do you see the SL?
I know Anthony's now shootingan sl2.
Do you see that gun?
Do you think it will get biggeror do you think it's going to
be kind of one of those littleniche things?
Speaker 3 (42:21):
because I think the gun is going to be.
I think the gun is going to bevery, very successful from the
standpoint that it is going tobe a very durable um and good
shooting gun.
Now, you know it's an expensivegun.
You know you're up in thearound $20,000,.
You know is is sort of whereyou're, is sort of where you're
at Um.
You know that's, that's a,that's a.
(42:43):
That's quite a check to cut Um.
However, I mean we see a lot ofParazzis and Kreghoffs and you
know the Kohlars and some of theupgrade.
You know the engraved BlaserF3s Um.
You know there are folks outthere that really like having
the.
You know the best that theyfeel as though, that that they
can have Um.
So I I do think it's going tobe a successful product.
(43:05):
Do I think that you know you'rethat you're going to see them
around like some of the othermore common guns?
No, I don't.
I mean I think the productionis always going to be somewhat
limited, um, and and I uh again,I think that you know the the
the price point is, you knowit's right up there.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
What do you think about the lines on the SL2?
I know that they talked aboutthat for a long time.
How they looked, you know, likea Lamborghini.
I think they said.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, you know it's
sort of the, the Euro style.
Um, you know, and, and I thinkyou know myself, you know I, I'm
a classic guy, you know I.
You know the, the, the beautyof a, of a British boss action
gun, you know, in terms of thatstyling is is what really
excites me.
Um, you know so it's you, thatstyling is is what really
(43:52):
excites me.
Um, you know so it's.
You know the, the.
You know the actual style ofthe gun I think is going to
really appeal to a, to, you know, potentially a younger crowd,
certainly the.
You know the folks that areinto the.
You know the, uh, the autoracing and that kind of thing
will will probably appreciate.
You know some of that kind ofstyling.
Um, I'll tell you that thoseshapes make it a hell of a lot
harder to stock yeah, I was justthinking that like it's got to
(44:12):
be crazy to stock that gun yeahso you've got all this stuff in
stock, other than maybe the sl2s, because they're spoken for
until 25, correct?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
yeah, we've got, we've got quite an inventory,
yeah, yeah you sell the auto,you know autoloaders, you sell
it all oh, oh yeah, we do.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
You know we do the Berettas, we do the Colpros.
You know we've done those foryears.
You know where we've takengussium up.
You know Jim Belgard, ourgunsmith in the main shop.
He does a great trigger job.
You know he turns those A400triggers into rifle triggers for
all practical purposes.
And you know, uh, you know wedo everything from just
(44:51):
cerakoting the, the gun basic,to, you know, doing fairly
ornamental um, you know, fullyengraved receivers and custom
stocks and forends.
We do the factory upgrade.
You know wood sets.
So you know the, the a400 is agreat tool.
You know you, look, look, whatjoe finisi has accomplished with
it.
You know, and, uh, I think, Ithink des Edmonds is is shooting
(45:12):
an a 400 now.
And you know Beretta semi autos, um, you know, regardless of
the model of, you know they'repretty legendary and clay target
sports.
And you know, in and in thefield as well.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, all right.
So, uh, one more thing, andI'll let you go.
I know you're busy, you still,you're still doing?
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I'm not, I'm not busy , you know, honestly, I'm.
I'm up here in the mainmountains right now, sitting in
my, in my camp, you know,overlooking the mountains and a
nice sunset.
So, um, I'm happy to, I'm happyto visit with you.
I'm not, I'm not real pushed up.
I've got a few days away andthen I'm going to get back to uh
, the, the Harpswell main shop,down on the coast on Saturday
(45:50):
morning.
How's the weather?
It's fantastic buddy 70 degreesand sunny Wow.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
That must be nice.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
You'll take that, won't you?
Speaker 2 (45:59):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
Right now I will yeah , right now.
You will.
Yeah.
I know you folks are having aheat wave down there.
I got it.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
It's always something it feels like you get out of
the shower as soon as you walkoutside with your clothes on.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I mean, it's just you know, you've been down there.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
So, you're still doing the cold chokes right.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
We still are doing the cold chokes.
Yeah, yeah, we, we absolutelyare.
You know we're.
We've um, we've got a um, we'vegot a special um model coming
out with Rizzini which is a, aspecial makeup for, for cold
gunsmithing.
I don't want to talk too muchabout it.
We don't have it yet, but youknow it's something that they're
building, that, uh, that we'vespecced out and we we've
(46:38):
produced um, you know our, ourprecision chokes, you know for
that model and and that ought tobe out in the next, uh, next 60
days or so.
But, uh, you know we're just, uh, you know the choke tubes are.
It's a limited production, butyou know we're just, you know
the choke tubes it's a limitedproduction for us.
You know we're doing theBeretta OBHP chokes.
We've had tremendous successwith the comments that we've had
(47:00):
with the shooters, the waythose chokes perform for them.
But you know we're never goingto be a big choke tube maker.
You know it's really a boutiqueproduct for us, choke tube
maker.
You know it's, uh, it's reallya boutique product for us, um,
you know for, you know for someof our own, you know in-house
custom work, um, and and again,you know some retail sales.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, you, you and John, are really, or your whole
company is really involved withthe youth, which I like.
Talk about that just for asecond, how you help these kids
and how you want to see thesekids in the future.
Invest a little bit of time nowwith these kids and in the
(47:43):
future you have great humanbeings.
I mean, I just think that it'samazing that you two, or your
whole company, is involved withthe youth like you are.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Well, you know, I believe that you know, to live
right, it can't be totally,totally self-serving.
You know, I think we all shouldlook in our heart and be
willing to give something back.
And you know, I think if youlook at what's going on around
the world and our society, youknow these days we owe it to the
(48:13):
youth, you know, to try andgive them opportunities, you
know, to grow and to develop andto be surrounded by people that
have, you know, good ethics.
You know, and positiveattitudes.
And I think that we see, youknow, in the shooting
communities, most of the peopleare good people.
You know they're good folks andyou know, we've noticed that.
(48:35):
You know that the parents thathave these youth shooters, these
folks are really working withtheir kids, you know, to try and
raise them right, and you knowso.
Therefore, we look at this, wewant to do everything we can do
to help, you know, these parentskeep their youths in the sport,
keep them around the you knowthe shooters and keep them in it
(48:57):
.
You know.
So we, you know we have ourlittle thing, team Cole, which
is really my wife's passion.
I have to give her really thecredit because, you know she's
the one who really hasinteracted with these young
folks and their parents and hasdone so much to try and help
them.
We don't really have anythingformal, it's really on a
(49:17):
case-by-case basis.
We try and do what we can we dosponsor some of the youth
shoots and try and give somethings to some of the teams.
You know where we can.
Anybody that's you know in thisbusiness knows that.
You know it's not aget-rich-quick scheme, you know.
So we're limited, you know,financially in terms of what
(49:39):
we're able to do.
But we want to do everythingthat we can.
You know, and I'd love to seesome of the other dealers and
the other manufacturers sort oftake up that torch and realize
that you know, these youngpeople are going to be the ones
that form the future that we'reall going to retire into.
And, uh, you know we, we wouldbe well served to to do
everything we can for the, youknow, for these young shooters
(50:01):
in our sport.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great thing that you do.
You know that your, your wholecompany, does uh what you got
planned for this year.
I do you know your, your wholecompany, does uh what you got
planned for this year.
I know you're having a goodtime right now.
What do you?
What's your plans for the restof the year Are?
Speaker 3 (50:16):
you going to be at any of these tournaments?
Or Well, I'm going to be.
I, honestly, myself, personally, I'm going to go to the Vermont
state shoot because I'm up herein Maine working the main shop,
um, you know, for the summer.
So I'm going to get over there.
I'm going to go over there andI'm probably going to try and
shoot some of those targets withthose folks over there.
Gianna Santo is one of oursponsored shooters and she'll be
over there.
That's her home club and so wewant to go over and see her and
(50:38):
her family.
And of course, I'll be at theNationals.
I always enjoy seeing all of ourfolks at the Nationals.
You know I figure we have.
You know we have our threefull-time locations.
And then we have, you know, inMarengo, ohio, for the SCTP.
You know we have a.
You know we have a little storethere and we'll be there.
We'll be sending people outthere for the for the duration
of the SCTP shoot for the kidsthere.
(50:59):
But you know, other than youknow, people ask me are you
going to go to the regionals andthis, that and the other?
And you know we're really notgoing to this year.
I think that you know we'regoing to try and stay right in
the shop, do the work that we'vegot there.
You know all of our shops havegot a lot of work.
We've got a lot of things thatare, you know, that are going on
(51:21):
a lot of customers' jobs.
And you know, I think we'regoing to do what we do best and
that's do the gunsmithing, youknow, do the service work, the
custom jobs and, you know,continue to try and develop
worthwhile products.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Well, listen, you and John have a good time, and you
know.
Get back to work when you canand I'll be in touch with you,
and if you need anything, justholler.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
I appreciate you talking to me tonight Awful,
nice, awful nice talking to youthere.
Yeah, nice talking to you.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Hopefully I see you here soon.
I know I'll see you atNationals, if not.
Speaker 3 (51:48):
Sounds good, buddy Be well.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.