May 20, 2025 • 37 mins
DeAnn Knighton and Craig Knighton, co-hosts of the Recovery Discovery Podcast, discuss their personal and professional journeys and interest in the current innovations in addiction treatment. DeAnn shares her six-year sobriety journey and her career pivot toward clinical mental health counseling. Craig talks about transitioning from engineering to an internship at Hazelden Betty Ford, focusing on addiction research. They explore the potential of AI technology in recovery, using ChatGPT to simulate a conversation about alcohol consumption. The AI provides accurate, empathetic, and non-judgmental advice, highlighting its potential to offer safe, stigma-free support for those seeking help.
ABOUT THE PODCAST:
Recovery Discovery (brought to you by Show Up and Stay) is a podcast series dedicated to exploring addiction through the lens of science and technology. DeAnn Knighton is a recovering human and a clinical mental health counselor in the making. She is joined by co-host and Show Up and Stay co-founder Craig Knighton. Craig is an engineer, a technology expert, and a world-class big brother inspired by scientific and technological advancements that will change how we think about and treat substance use disorder.
If you have questions or comments or would like to be a guest on the Recovery Discovery Podcast, send an email to:
deann@showupandstay.org
More information about our project is available at:
https://www.showupandstay.org/
https://www.soberpositiveworkplace.org/
For podcast updates, follow us on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/showupandstayorg/
Music and Audio Production by Katie Hare.
https://www.hare.works
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
DeAnn Knighton (00:00):
Hi. This is the recovery discovery podcast
(00:02):
brought to you by show up andstay. This is a podcast series
dedicated to exploring addictionthrough the lens of science and
technology. We will exploreinnovations, clinical
advancements and scientificdiscoveries that are changing
the way we treat and supportrecovery. I'm your host,
deannnighton, and I am joinedtoday by my co host Craig
(00:23):
Knighton, believe it or not,show up and say is in its fourth
year, and when we first startedthe podcast, it was much more a
narrative focused podcasttelling stories of individuals
at the early stages of recovery.
As we've evolved. We have addedadditional series, including our
sober, positive workplaceseries, which we most recently
(00:45):
wrapped up, which was focused onincreasing inclusion and
awareness of people in recoveryand who don't drink in the
workplace. We now today. First,let me say hi to Craig, who's
here with us today. Hey, Craig,hi, DeAnn. I'm so excited to do
this with you. As always, forthose who don't have a history
(01:08):
listening to us on priorepisodes, we are siblings. Also
co founders of show up and stayand have been working on this
project together for four years.
Just to give a little bit ofbackground on me, I'm a human in
recovery for just about sixyears now, I was actually just
pulling up, speaking oftechnology innovations, I was
(01:32):
actually just pulling up my Nomoapp. It's backwards for you,
Craig, which tells me how manydays it has been since I had a
drink of alcohol, which is 2200and there's three Yeah, six
years, 73 months, 2233 days,53,613, I'll save you. We won't
(01:55):
get into the minutes and theseconds. But yeah, I have had
this since the get go, and it'sreally cool. It's something I
don't look I kind of forget alot. So it's nice to have these
moments when I can go back andlook at that. And now, the guy
who created this has a littlepicture of himself and his kid
at the bottom that says, I'm nota company, I'm just a guy. So we
(02:16):
run on donations. Please supportus. I probably need to support
him, because I'm now six yearsin using his technology. Yeah,
Unknown (02:24):
but not every day. You don't
DeAnn Knighton (02:27):
every day. But still, I appreciate it. It's
made a difference for me. Youcan go back and listen to other
episodes of show up and stay tohear a lot more about my
personal story. Where I'm morefocused now is I've been doing a
career pivot, and I'm movingtowards working as a clinical
mental health counselor, andbeen doing my graduate school
(02:49):
education at Hazelden Betty Fordgraduate school, which focuses
on CO occurring disorders aswell as integrated recovery,
which was something that reallyappealed To me because of the
overlap of both subjects. Soalthough the focus for us has
typically been substance usedisorder, primarily on this
podcast, we also talk a lotabout other things tied to the
(03:12):
world of behavioral health andmental health, because it all
overlaps in so many ways. Soyeah, Craig, I wonder how you
would feel about sharing yourmost recent experience
transitioning from engineer andprofessional to independent
contractor and intern,
Unknown (03:32):
especially, yeah.
Speaking of career changes, Ihave made a few here lately,
including retiring, which is areally big step, but I am still
way too young to truly beretired. So as you mentioned, I
am continuing to do work both inthe engineering field for
clients, provider actually inthe sleep space, but also for
(03:56):
Hazelden, Betty Ford, where I'vejoined the research team, there
as an intern, an unpaid intern,to learn the art of research,
especially as it relates toaddiction and addiction studies.
So excited to be part of thatteam, and excited to be
(04:18):
supporting some of theirresearch initiatives that are
both underway, as well as a newmulti year project that will be
beginning here in the very nearfuture.
DeAnn Knighton (04:29):
Wonderful.
Alright, well, I hope you don'tmind me asking you this, but I I
know that for me, I had to do alot of reassessing and
recalibrating when I made myshift in particular, into how I
learn and how I consider my rolein the learning process and
being obviously much more openand receptive to what others can
teach me about an area that I'mnot as familiar with, but also
(04:52):
that feeling a little bitchallenging too at the same time
there, there are days where.
Are, I kind of just wake upready to hit the ground running,
and I have to realize, like,kind of slow myself down a
little bit, but I know thatoverall, in the long run, I
think it's been a really healthything for me. But some days it's
(05:13):
harder than others. I wonderwhat that's been like for you.
Unknown (05:18):
Yeah, especially as an intern, the assumption is that I
don't really know anything aboutthis, and that's a safe
assumption. I think you and Iare wired a little differently.
There are certainly elements ofthat that hit home on my ego,
but they tend more to relate tomy technical skills and trying
(05:40):
to put those skills to work forthe organization and and having
those technical skillsunderestimated or challenged,
right? That that gets at my mycore identity, but because I am
so new to addiction andaddiction research and the work
that they do, I can just open itup and soak it all up like a
(06:06):
sponge, right? It really, Idon't have any imposter syndrome
because I didn't claim that Iknew anything about any of this,
right? Nor is it part of mylived experience. Even, you
know, I'm, I'm an old engineer,and so it's, it's technology
that is near and dear to myheart, and science has always
been a passion of mine. So thethat's really maybe more where
(06:33):
I've had to adjust andrecalibrate and realize that
nobody in this organization doesknow me, or anything that I've
done in my technical career, somaybe I need to be patient with
them as well and help themunderstand how I can contribute.
DeAnn Knighton (06:52):
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.
I think that that is similar inthe sense of like, the part I
can relate to is that feelinglike I want to add value and
struggling being in spaces whereI don't feel like other people
can see my value. I It's kind ofhow I'm wired to be allowed in
those spaces, is that Icontribute and that I have
things to offer. So thatdefinitely hits for me at times,
(07:16):
but is has definitely gottenbetter with time. I also think
about how funny it is, even justat the start of this podcast, I
will say at the beginning of thepodcast, I was obviously much
more narrative, focused and veryintrospective about my own
journey. And not to say thatthat doesn't play a part now,
but it has been interesting tosee how much my brain has kind
(07:38):
of shifted over the last fouryears, and how much I realized
very quickly that I didn't knowI could speak from a place of my
own experience, and always feelconfident that that was a place
that I could speak and feel goodabout what I was saying, and
then moving into kind of thesebroader topics, definitely
(07:58):
feeling some of the impostersyndrome kick in, kind of even
shut me down a little bit for awhile. While I was starting to
dig into so much content forschool and on this topic that it
was almost like overload. Sothen when it came to like
needing to distill anything downor sharing it, it felt extremely
(08:19):
overwhelming to me, and that wasstrange, because that's not
usually an experience I have.
Usually, I have no problemfinding words and to find
myself, you know, kind of tonguetied that way. It reminded me a
lot of that, that phase of likelearning, where it's like, you
are actually more confident whenyou don't know what you don't
know, but then once you knowwhat you don't know, it's like,
(08:40):
Oh, crap. Now we're in trouble.
Unknown (08:46):
Well, given the fact that we're planning to talk
about AI today, I think we'llboth be in the category of
knowing what we don't know andknowing just how much there is
to learn about some of theinnovations that are happening,
and that's for sure.
DeAnn Knighton (09:02):
And I think that's what's so cool about
this, is like, that's the way Ithink about this too. It's
certainly there are areas ofthis topic that I know more
about than others, but there'sso much I don't know and
understand. And I am excited toapproach this, like, with a
beginner's mind, and bringeverybody along with us. And
yeah, so that being said, youknow, as we kind of teed up what
(09:24):
we wanted to focus on here, Ithink it'll be broad range of
things, with technology at thecenter, but also overall
science, innovations in general,potentially developments in the
space of recovery and substanceuse disorder. I will say, just
for the audience, you and I havea strong interest and show up
and stay in general, has alwayshad a strong interest in sort of
(09:45):
what happens post acutetreatment, that process of
reintegrating back into life,reintegrating as a human in
recovery, what that looks likethree, 612, months down the
road. So we. We'll be digginginto things that hit kind of, I
think, on all of the differentphases of that process and what
(10:06):
is out there that is beingdeveloped. There has been so
much in the last five years thatis just really amplified. I
think the need for tools likethis to help us understand
what's even out there. You know,I think of clinicians who are
trying to know what to telltheir clients about. That might
be exciting. I think, of peoplewho are struggling themselves
(10:27):
and looking for unique ways toget better. So I think it could
be, you know, anyone who's justinterested in the importance of
this topic, but in particular,some of the different things
that are coming up in the space,I think this will be a perfect
place to be. So we're gladyou're here. Thank you for being
here. So with that being said,Should we get into our first
(10:50):
episode? Craig, sure. Let's doit. I'm gonna have you tea. This
one up a little bit. This isexciting for me, because it is
definitely talking about puttingme outside of my comfort zone,
um, it's a little bit of an areawhere I would say Craig and I
are, like, kind of in differentlanes. But I'm going to say I
don't think I'm as far away fromCraig as he thinks, because I
(11:10):
have spent some time with peopleon this topic who, like, if you
and I are like, an inch apart myI have spent time, yes, so that
made me feel better, right whereI was like, Oh no, I'm I'm like,
further along than some butthere still is a level of
skepticism, especially given thefact that I'm putting a lot of
time and energy into trainingmyself to be able to do some of
(11:33):
the things that this particularthing can help do. So, you know,
it's interesting to explore, solet me turn it over to you, and
have you kind of set this up,and what got us here today.
Unknown (11:45):
So the background is that my brother had recently
gone through some back surgery,and he was in recovery, and so
another brother and I traveledto spend some time with him, and
there's a lot of time whenyou're in spending time with
somebody who's recovering from asurgery or physical illness.
(12:07):
There's a lot of time and a lotof things to talk about. And of
course, at one point in theconversation, it naturally
drifted to talking about AItechnologies, and one of our
brothers has had a lot ofexperience in the healthcare
space and but he didn't reallysee the kind of opportunity that
(12:29):
he he thought might eventuallyexist in the current technology,
you know, the idea of Being ableto talk to a bot, or, you know,
to chat with something thatsounds and seems to be human and
to like explore your healthrelated topics, right? Not even
(12:52):
thinking about diagnosis oranything like treatment at all,
but just to satisfy yourcuriosity the same way you would
if you went online and you juststarted googling stuff, right?
That sort of exploration of howyou're feeling and and what
might be going on in your body,and the kind of things that
(13:13):
you'd want to do to to selfeducate yourself before maybe
talking to a professional. So Ihad recently heard another
podcast in which they talked tochatgpt that happened to be the
particular technology they wereusing at the time in this sort
of interactive way. And I wassurprised how much progress had
(13:38):
happened, like how natural itwas to actually talk to this
thing as if it were a person,and to have it talk back to you
in a way that showed a verynatural interest in what you
were talking about and drew youinto answering more questions
and kind of exploring the topicin a very natural way. And I by
(14:00):
the time we were done, I thinkthey'd become converts where
before, they were skeptical thatmaybe this could someday, maybe
it'll be interesting. But youknow, it really wasn't ready to
have any kind of impact onclinical care. By the end, our
more skeptical brother was evenspeculating that for simple
(14:23):
problems, maybe we could even goright to getting to a
prescription just by having ainteractive conversation with
technology like this that wouldhelp diagnose a UTI, or some of
those things that we already allknow what we have And but we
have to still go through theformality of actually physically
(14:45):
visiting a clinician or not.
Now, a lot of times these thingsare done with tele visits
instead. So I saw that. I sawour brothers go from being very
skeptical at the beginning thatthis could be used. Full to that
aha moment happened just in like1015, minutes. So I thought it
might be fun to have that sameconversation with you, to try
(15:10):
the technology out and see whathappens.
DeAnn Knighton (15:15):
I think so too.
Okay, so just so everyone knowsyou are going to be experiencing
this with us. We have not doneany setups or tests. So there
could be things that don't goexactly right, but that's all
right, but this will be a chanceif you are sitting there already
feeling yourself skeptical,let's see what you think about
this. Another mention I'll sayis, when we talk about AI
technology in this space, or anyspace, there's different ways to
(15:38):
utilize it, right? So, so likeCraig set up very well, this is
definitely more about utilizingthe tool as an interactive
resource to help people movetowards their goals or recovery,
or whatever it is that they areneeding to find when they go out
looking for answers. Is that,does that sound right? Craig, it
Unknown (16:02):
sounds good. So I think we want to have personas in
mind, right? So I think we'rethinking of the AI is like a
friend or a confidant or or evensomebody with a little bit of
clinical knowledge aboutrecovery. And then I think you
probably need to pick acharacter. I'm ready. You
(16:26):
already know who it is. Howwould you describe this? So
DeAnn Knighton (16:29):
my persona? So I actually just am actually
hearkening back to the earlydays for me, when I went to the
internet one day and put in. Howdo I find treatment? And what
would it mean? And tried to findanswers that way, with a whole
bunch of search engine responsespopping back up and trying to
(16:51):
figure out what was available tome. So I will. I'll focus,
though more on the vein ofstruggling with the idea of
whether or not I have an issuerelated to alcohol. How does
that feel? Yeah, yeah. And, and,you know what that what that
might mean. How would I begin toevaluate that, and what does
(17:15):
that mean for me moving forward,that that's kind of the way I
was thinking about it,
Unknown (17:19):
okay? And now, on the flip side, we get to customize
your experience a little bittoo, because one of the things
you get to choose is the voicethat you want to talk. And it's
interesting. It surprised me howmuch personality they're able to
put into these voices, not justin gender. You know, is it a
(17:40):
male voice or a female voice, oris it? Does it have that vaguely
European accent that we all seemto like? But even just
personality can come through ina voice. And so you can even
start by picking the personalityof the person that you want to
talk to. So I want to play someof the voices for you, and you
can pick the one that you likebest once see how that goes. I'm
(18:04):
not sure which of the firstpersonalities here are going to
pop up, but let's just listen toa few of them and we'll pick the
one that you like best. Okay,what's up? Feel free to ask me
about anything that's on yourmind. I'm ready to go. Okay,
that one's described as savvyand relaxed. How's
your day going? I'm reallylooking forward to working on
(18:26):
some cool stuff together.
That's breeze. They are animatedand earnest. I'm looking forward
to working together. Let'sfigure out where to start. And
that's spruce. They are calm andaffirming.
DeAnn Knighton (18:42):
I think I need common. I know that I need
common affirming. I need commonaffirming. The first one
reminded me too much of myself,that's fair, no. And I talked to
myself, wait, I get enough ofthat. Yeah, who needs more of
that? But this is alsointeresting, right? Because
there's a whole realm of like,when people seek help, looking
for the right match for them interms of the type of therapeutic
(19:03):
relationship they want, and ifit is calm and affirming or
supportive, or whatever thosedifferent indicators might be.
And isn't
Unknown (19:13):
it so much easier to explore 10 different
personalities that way and findit rather than to have to
actually talk to 10 differenttherapists. What it is that
you're looking for, that's
DeAnn Knighton (19:26):
fair. That's fair.
Hi, are you there?
Unknown (19:39):
Hey, yeah, I'm here.
What's up?
DeAnn Knighton (19:43):
Oh, yeah, hi, this is DeAnn. Do you have a
name?
Unknown (19:48):
Oh, good question. You can just call me chat GPT or
chat for short, I don't have apersonal name, but I'm here for
whatever you want to chat about.
Okay?
DeAnn Knighton (20:01):
Okay, well, I wanted to ask today, I have been
starting to feel concerned thatI might be drinking too much
alcohol, and I wanted to see ifyou could give me information on
that.
Unknown (20:15):
Oh, absolutely, I'm glad you brought that up. So
there's a lot to consider, butwe can start with some basics
like what counts as moderateversus heavy drinking and how it
affects your health. If youwant, we can talk through some
signs to watch for, or evenstrategies to cut back if that's
(20:36):
something you're interested in.
And of course, I can point youto some great resources or
guidelines. Let me know whatangle you want to start with,
and we can jump right in.
DeAnn Knighton (20:49):
Let's start with just evaluating the difference
between moderate and heavydrinking. So I have some idea.
Unknown (20:56):
You got it. Okay, so generally, moderate drinking is
considered up to one drink perday for women and up to two
drinks per day for men. Heavydrinking is more than that,
usually around eight or moredrinks per week for women and 15
or more for men. Of course,there's some nuance with things
(21:20):
like binge drinking or howalcohol affects you
individually, but those are thebroad strokes. If you want to
dig into specific types ofdrinks or situations, we can
definitely get more detailed.
DeAnn Knighton (21:35):
No, I think that's okay. That helps to
answer my question. I'mwondering, how do I determine if
I would benefit from gettingsupport for my drinking?
Unknown (21:49):
Oh, good question.
Okay, so one of the main thingsto look at is how your drinking
is affecting your life, if it'scausing problems with your
health, relationships orresponsibilities. That's a sign,
even if you're just feelinguneasy about how much you're
drinking, that's totally valid.
(22:10):
You can also look at things likehow easy it is to cut back, or
if you feel like you're relyingon alcohol to unwind. If any of
that sounds familiar, it mightbe worth talking to someone or
exploring some resources, andthere's no pressure. Just
figuring out what feels rightfor you is a great first step.
(22:33):
If you want to explore specifictools or approaches, we can do
that too.
DeAnn Knighton (22:41):
I'm interested in treatment, but to get started
today, can you give me someideas of things that I could do
on my own to maybe startaddressing this problem?
Unknown (22:52):
Oh, absolutely, great idea. So one really effective
thing is to set some small,specific goals around drinking,
like decide on a number ofalcohol free days each week, or
set a limit on how much you'lldrink in one sitting. Another
great tip is to find areplacement activity for times
(23:16):
when you normally have a drink,like going for a walk, trying a
new hobby, or even just drinkinga non alcoholic beverage you
enjoy. And if you want, we cantalk about apps or resources
that can help you track yourprogress. The key is starting
small and being kind to yourselfas you figure it out. If any of
(23:39):
that sounds interesting. We canbrainstorm some specifics.
DeAnn Knighton (23:45):
Yeah, I would be interested maybe in some of the
technology options that youmentioned that can help with
tracking.
Unknown (23:52):
You got it. There are some awesome apps out there for
tracking alcohol consumption andsetting goals. One popular
option is an act called Drinkcontrol. It helps you log
drinks, track patterns and evenconvert them into units for a
clearer picture. Another goodone is sunny side, which focuses
(24:15):
on mindful drinking and offerscoaching and reminders. If you
want something super simple, youcould even use a habit tracker
or a Notes app with a dailycheck in. There's a bunch of
options. So if you have aparticular style or feature in
mind, I can help you narrow itdown.
DeAnn Knighton (24:38):
Okay, what if I'm not able to do it on my own.
What if that doesn't work? Whatdo I do next?
Unknown (24:45):
Ah, good question. If you find it tough to manage on
your own, that's totally normal.
The next step could be reachingout to a professional like a
counselor or a support group.
There. Are even online programsand virtual meetings. If you
prefer something more flexible,the key is to remember you're
(25:08):
not alone, and there's no onesize fits all answer. Sometimes,
just having a conversation withsomeone who's been there can be
a huge help, if you want, we cantalk about specific types of
support, like finding a goodtherapist or checking out groups
(25:29):
like moderation management oreven Alcoholics Anonymous.
There's a ton of options, and wecan find something that feels
right for you.
DeAnn Knighton (25:42):
Do you have the availability or the ability to
look at resources in mycommunity?
Unknown (25:50):
Oh, absolutely. I can help with that. If you let me
know your general area, I canlook up local resources like
support groups, counselors oreven specific programs, there
are usually some great optionsnearby, whether you're looking
for something formal or morecasual. Just let me know what
(26:12):
kind of vibe you're after, and Ican get more specific.
DeAnn Knighton (26:17):
Yeah, I'm in Salt Lake City, and I really
need something that isn't goingto impact my life or my day to
day, I'm very busy.
Unknown (26:27):
Got it okay? So there are definitely options that are
flexible and can sneak rightinto your busy life. For
instance, there are onlinecounseling platforms like better
help or talk space that let youconnect with a professional on
your own schedule. There arealso apps that offer short,
(26:49):
guided check ins and support soyou can work on things in small
chunks whenever you have amoment. And Salt Lake City has
some fantastic local resourcesfor support groups and community
centers that are pretty low keyand flexible. If you want, I can
find a few specific options thatfocus on convenience and minimal
(27:13):
disruption.
DeAnn Knighton (27:16):
Yeah, I you know right now, I'm just feeling a
little bit overwhelmed with allof this information. I'm having
a hard time figuring out what todo next.
Unknown (27:25):
Oh, I totally get that.
It's a lot to take in,especially when you're already
busy and feeling overwhelmed.
How about this? We can startwith just one small step that
feels manageable, if you want, Ican suggest one simple thing to
try, and we can check in fromthere. Or if you want me to help
(27:49):
prioritize the information, wecan figure out the most
important piece to focus onfirst, just let me know what
feels right, and we can go fromthere.
So I muted it so we could talk alittle bit. What do you think
DeAnn Knighton (28:03):
so far? I'm really surprised, pretty
impressive. I am surprised abouthow well it reacts to like my
cadence of asking questions andnot, you know, because we've all
had that experience of talkingto Siri or Alexa right where we
have to, like, repeat five timesand say exactly the right phrase
(28:27):
to get a response right. Like,so what felt feels really
different here is like thepivoting is really surprising,
and then the information that isbeing given is exactly what
would be given if you weretalking to a live person. And in
fact, there's more ability, Ithink, for this to be able to
(28:47):
look at like resources quickly,you know, in a specific area,
probably more so than a personwould have the capability to do.
Unknown (28:56):
I found listening to you talk to it, that you slowed
down, yes, his speaking cadence,I think, yeah, yeah, which was
probably okay, right? That yes,that's a what do they call that
mirroring? I think I'm
DeAnn Knighton (29:14):
a counselor, so I have to mirror, yeah,
Unknown (29:18):
and in a way, you did mirror, but that's also part of,
I suppose, the experienceitself, right? You could have
talked to someone who talkedfaster as well, but maybe that's
part of what you would seek outin the voice that you would pick
is somebody that like if youwere anxious, then you would
look for someone who would calmyou and slow you down and get
(29:40):
you to be more deliberate. Ididn't. I thought all of it. I
never once felt like itmisunderstood you,
DeAnn Knighton (29:52):
right? That's what I was trying yes exactly
the answers were on point to thequestions and some of. Them were
double questions, you know, kindof complex questions. And it
even had room for me to havefiller, you know, oh, I don't
want to do that right now. And,like, move to my other question.
(30:13):
Yeah, I that that part issurprising. And yeah, you're
right. There is something withthe cadence that felt with him,
like, maybe with that voice, um,definitely, sometimes some
reminder, like, because it wasso slow and deliberate, but I
think he's programmed that way,right? So there might be other
voices that would feel even alittle bit more, more
Unknown (30:35):
a little bit, yeah, where you would but I it did
seem I could almost see in youreyes and in your face, as I was
watching you talk to it a pointwhere you stopped thinking about
the fact that it was technologyand thinking about what it was
saying. Yeah, you were. Youmoved from evaluating it to
(30:55):
like, Is this even worth mytime? To to thinking about the
information instead, and Isuppose, given your training
you, you were able to be muchmore immediately critical, like
to me, I don't know what anormal response would be to any
(31:16):
of those questions if you weretalking to somebody who was
appropriately trained to handlea situation like this. I
DeAnn Knighton (31:24):
mean, that's all the stuff. I would say, yeah,
and, and I would also say that Iwas surprised by how much
empathy it used, because evenwhen I would sort of lament, it
had kind of that properresponse. I Yes, let's do that.
Or I understand that, or thatlike to make you feel sort of
(31:44):
that affirming, like we'removing in the right direction.
So maybe that's more affirmationthan empathy. Now that I say
that, I'm trying to think, didit actually empathize?
Unknown (32:00):
What do you think? I think when, when you express
that you are overwhelmed. Ithought its response was
particularly empathetic. Well,then let's narrow things down
and just focus on one thing,
DeAnn Knighton (32:13):
yes, that Yeah.
I knew there were some, a coupleof examples where I felt the
empathy and I definitely feltthe affirmation, which are all
like core counseling skills,right that we like learn to
practice.
Unknown (32:25):
Would you now take yourself back to what did we
2333 days ago? If you had knownthat something like this
existed, would you have tried totalk to it?
DeAnn Knighton (32:37):
I probably wouldn't have, just because,
just because of me, like, Ithink I would have started
somewhere else, probably becauseit's the same thing, of like,
when I really need help, I needthat, I don't know, I would have
sought out a human,
Unknown (32:56):
a human, it makes sense now. Now let me flip it around.
Seeking out a human always hasrisks, right? Because, depending
on who that human is and howmuch you trust them is, are you
safe to even talk about thesetopics that one of the things I
find fascinating is that this isinherently safe,
DeAnn Knighton (33:16):
right? What if it had said to me? Oh my gosh,
you need to quit right away.
This is horrible. But, you know,just like started giving me all
of this, like, really scary,judgmental, like, Doomsday type
of advice.
Unknown (33:29):
Yeah, it could have done that, but it doesn't. I
think that's interesting that,but I think there's an element
of stigma, free safety that isgoing to make this interesting,
as it just continues to improve,I think it will be approachable
in ways that people aren't andin environments where you
(33:50):
wouldn't even normally think youknow it. I there are probably
people that are even afraid toGoogle. Am I a heavy drinker on
their work computer? Right?
Because their employer mightlearn something that they don't
want their employer to know. SoI think we're all surrounded by
this concern that not only willthis person be listening to me
(34:13):
and offering me information, butthat they might also be judging
me because they are. They haveanother role in my life, right?
DeAnn Knighton (34:24):
Yeah, the objectivity can actually be very
appealing, you know, in thesense of like, yeah, the
judgment, free feeling, and theinformation based on the best
available information. But Ialso think I wonder too, as
we're talking about this is likea little bit more of, like a
consultation conversation. Andmaybe we can do we can explore
(34:47):
this in future episodes, wherewe get more into something,
where it's actually finding thenext questions to ask me,
because that is very much, youknow, when you're talking about,
like counseling, that is verymuch about what is. The next
question to start drawing thatperson towards an outcome.
Unknown (35:05):
Do you want to try to do that now? Do you want to try
to pick that up and see or arewe out? We're out of time,
aren't we?
DeAnn Knighton (35:11):
Yeah, let's actually, I'll cut it off on
this, but I think we could comeback and do another version.
Curious, what that made youthink if it was different than
what you expected, if it wasexactly what you expected, if
this was something you alreadyknew everything about and
(35:31):
weren't surprised to hear howeffective it was at helping me
through this issue in a fairly,you know, comfortable way, I
would love to hear, what areyour fears about this, all of
the different things that mightbe running through your brain
right now. And I just want tosay, as we move forward with
this podcast, we're going to beexploring a lot of different
technology and resources, andeverything is about the
(35:53):
exploration process, not theendorsement process. It's about
helping you get as muchinformation about what's out
there as possible. However, Ithink this is part of the future
that we're in, and so hopefullyyou found this useful to
consider how it could be appliedin the world of recovery and
substance use disorder. So wewill be back in a couple of
(36:15):
weeks with our next episode.
Craig, anything else you'd liketo share with the audience
before I
Unknown (36:21):
just want to thank you for your open mind and for
kicking out with me a littlebit. I
DeAnn Knighton (36:26):
love it. I thought that was awesome.
Alright, let us know what youthink. We will go ahead and wrap
this up. There'll be links inthe show notes on how to find
us. Love to hear from you withany feedback, you can send me
messages directly to DeAnn atshow up and stay.org if you have
an innovation or somethingyou're interested in hearing
about on the show that itrelates to the world of
(36:47):
behavioral health and substanceuse disorder, please send that
my way as well. We'd love tohear from you. You can find more
information about our network ofpodcasts and other services at
show up and stay.org and thankyou so much for being here.
We'll see you soon.
Unknown (37:04):
Be well. Be well. You.
Hi. This is the recovery discovery podcast
(00:02):
brought to you by show up andstay. This is a podcast series
dedicated to exploring addictionthrough the lens of science and
technology. We will exploreinnovations, clinical
advancements and scientificdiscoveries that are changing
the way we treat and supportrecovery. I'm your host,
deannnighton, and I am joinedtoday by my co host Craig
(00:23):
Knighton, believe it or not,show up and say is in its fourth
year, and when we first startedthe podcast, it was much more a
narrative focused podcasttelling stories of individuals
at the early stages of recovery.
As we've evolved. We have addedadditional series, including our
sober, positive workplaceseries, which we most recently
(00:45):
wrapped up, which was focused onincreasing inclusion and
awareness of people in recoveryand who don't drink in the
workplace. We now today. First,let me say hi to Craig, who's
here with us today. Hey, Craig,hi, DeAnn. I'm so excited to do
this with you. As always, forthose who don't have a history
(01:08):
listening to us on priorepisodes, we are siblings. Also
co founders of show up and stayand have been working on this
project together for four years.
Just to give a little bit ofbackground on me, I'm a human in
recovery for just about sixyears now, I was actually just
pulling up, speaking oftechnology innovations, I was
(01:32):
actually just pulling up my Nomoapp. It's backwards for you,
Craig, which tells me how manydays it has been since I had a
drink of alcohol, which is 2200and there's three Yeah, six
years, 73 months, 2233 days,53,613, I'll save you. We won't
(01:55):
get into the minutes and theseconds. But yeah, I have had
this since the get go, and it'sreally cool. It's something I
don't look I kind of forget alot. So it's nice to have these
moments when I can go back andlook at that. And now, the guy
who created this has a littlepicture of himself and his kid
at the bottom that says, I'm nota company, I'm just a guy. So we
(02:16):
run on donations. Please supportus. I probably need to support
him, because I'm now six yearsin using his technology. Yeah,
Unknown (02:24):
but not every day. You don't
DeAnn Knighton (02:27):
every day. But still, I appreciate it. It's
made a difference for me. Youcan go back and listen to other
episodes of show up and stay tohear a lot more about my
personal story. Where I'm morefocused now is I've been doing a
career pivot, and I'm movingtowards working as a clinical
mental health counselor, andbeen doing my graduate school
(02:49):
education at Hazelden Betty Fordgraduate school, which focuses
on CO occurring disorders aswell as integrated recovery,
which was something that reallyappealed To me because of the
overlap of both subjects. Soalthough the focus for us has
typically been substance usedisorder, primarily on this
podcast, we also talk a lotabout other things tied to the
(03:12):
world of behavioral health andmental health, because it all
overlaps in so many ways. Soyeah, Craig, I wonder how you
would feel about sharing yourmost recent experience
transitioning from engineer andprofessional to independent
contractor and intern,
Unknown (03:32):
especially, yeah.
Speaking of career changes, Ihave made a few here lately,
including retiring, which is areally big step, but I am still
way too young to truly beretired. So as you mentioned, I
am continuing to do work both inthe engineering field for
clients, provider actually inthe sleep space, but also for
(03:56):
Hazelden, Betty Ford, where I'vejoined the research team, there
as an intern, an unpaid intern,to learn the art of research,
especially as it relates toaddiction and addiction studies.
So excited to be part of thatteam, and excited to be
(04:18):
supporting some of theirresearch initiatives that are
both underway, as well as a newmulti year project that will be
beginning here in the very nearfuture.
DeAnn Knighton (04:29):
Wonderful.
Alright, well, I hope you don'tmind me asking you this, but I I
know that for me, I had to do alot of reassessing and
recalibrating when I made myshift in particular, into how I
learn and how I consider my rolein the learning process and
being obviously much more openand receptive to what others can
teach me about an area that I'mnot as familiar with, but also
(04:52):
that feeling a little bitchallenging too at the same time
there, there are days where.
Are, I kind of just wake upready to hit the ground running,
and I have to realize, like,kind of slow myself down a
little bit, but I know thatoverall, in the long run, I
think it's been a really healthything for me. But some days it's
(05:13):
harder than others. I wonderwhat that's been like for you.
Unknown (05:18):
Yeah, especially as an intern, the assumption is that I
don't really know anything aboutthis, and that's a safe
assumption. I think you and Iare wired a little differently.
There are certainly elements ofthat that hit home on my ego,
but they tend more to relate tomy technical skills and trying
(05:40):
to put those skills to work forthe organization and and having
those technical skillsunderestimated or challenged,
right? That that gets at my mycore identity, but because I am
so new to addiction andaddiction research and the work
that they do, I can just open itup and soak it all up like a
(06:06):
sponge, right? It really, Idon't have any imposter syndrome
because I didn't claim that Iknew anything about any of this,
right? Nor is it part of mylived experience. Even, you
know, I'm, I'm an old engineer,and so it's, it's technology
that is near and dear to myheart, and science has always
been a passion of mine. So thethat's really maybe more where
(06:33):
I've had to adjust andrecalibrate and realize that
nobody in this organization doesknow me, or anything that I've
done in my technical career, somaybe I need to be patient with
them as well and help themunderstand how I can contribute.
DeAnn Knighton (06:52):
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.
I think that that is similar inthe sense of like, the part I
can relate to is that feelinglike I want to add value and
struggling being in spaces whereI don't feel like other people
can see my value. I It's kind ofhow I'm wired to be allowed in
those spaces, is that Icontribute and that I have
things to offer. So thatdefinitely hits for me at times,
(07:16):
but is has definitely gottenbetter with time. I also think
about how funny it is, even justat the start of this podcast, I
will say at the beginning of thepodcast, I was obviously much
more narrative, focused and veryintrospective about my own
journey. And not to say thatthat doesn't play a part now,
but it has been interesting tosee how much my brain has kind
(07:38):
of shifted over the last fouryears, and how much I realized
very quickly that I didn't knowI could speak from a place of my
own experience, and always feelconfident that that was a place
that I could speak and feel goodabout what I was saying, and
then moving into kind of thesebroader topics, definitely
(07:58):
feeling some of the impostersyndrome kick in, kind of even
shut me down a little bit for awhile. While I was starting to
dig into so much content forschool and on this topic that it
was almost like overload. Sothen when it came to like
needing to distill anything downor sharing it, it felt extremely
(08:19):
overwhelming to me, and that wasstrange, because that's not
usually an experience I have.
Usually, I have no problemfinding words and to find
myself, you know, kind of tonguetied that way. It reminded me a
lot of that, that phase of likelearning, where it's like, you
are actually more confident whenyou don't know what you don't
know, but then once you knowwhat you don't know, it's like,
(08:40):
Oh, crap. Now we're in trouble.
Unknown (08:46):
Well, given the fact that we're planning to talk
about AI today, I think we'llboth be in the category of
knowing what we don't know andknowing just how much there is
to learn about some of theinnovations that are happening,
and that's for sure.
DeAnn Knighton (09:02):
And I think that's what's so cool about
this, is like, that's the way Ithink about this too. It's
certainly there are areas ofthis topic that I know more
about than others, but there'sso much I don't know and
understand. And I am excited toapproach this, like, with a
beginner's mind, and bringeverybody along with us. And
yeah, so that being said, youknow, as we kind of teed up what
(09:24):
we wanted to focus on here, Ithink it'll be broad range of
things, with technology at thecenter, but also overall
science, innovations in general,potentially developments in the
space of recovery and substanceuse disorder. I will say, just
for the audience, you and I havea strong interest and show up
and stay in general, has alwayshad a strong interest in sort of
(09:45):
what happens post acutetreatment, that process of
reintegrating back into life,reintegrating as a human in
recovery, what that looks likethree, 612, months down the
road. So we. We'll be digginginto things that hit kind of, I
think, on all of the differentphases of that process and what
(10:06):
is out there that is beingdeveloped. There has been so
much in the last five years thatis just really amplified. I
think the need for tools likethis to help us understand
what's even out there. You know,I think of clinicians who are
trying to know what to telltheir clients about. That might
be exciting. I think, of peoplewho are struggling themselves
(10:27):
and looking for unique ways toget better. So I think it could
be, you know, anyone who's justinterested in the importance of
this topic, but in particular,some of the different things
that are coming up in the space,I think this will be a perfect
place to be. So we're gladyou're here. Thank you for being
here. So with that being said,Should we get into our first
(10:50):
episode? Craig, sure. Let's doit. I'm gonna have you tea. This
one up a little bit. This isexciting for me, because it is
definitely talking about puttingme outside of my comfort zone,
um, it's a little bit of an areawhere I would say Craig and I
are, like, kind of in differentlanes. But I'm going to say I
don't think I'm as far away fromCraig as he thinks, because I
(11:10):
have spent some time with peopleon this topic who, like, if you
and I are like, an inch apart myI have spent time, yes, so that
made me feel better, right whereI was like, Oh no, I'm I'm like,
further along than some butthere still is a level of
skepticism, especially given thefact that I'm putting a lot of
time and energy into trainingmyself to be able to do some of
(11:33):
the things that this particularthing can help do. So, you know,
it's interesting to explore, solet me turn it over to you, and
have you kind of set this up,and what got us here today.
Unknown (11:45):
So the background is that my brother had recently
gone through some back surgery,and he was in recovery, and so
another brother and I traveledto spend some time with him, and
there's a lot of time whenyou're in spending time with
somebody who's recovering from asurgery or physical illness.
(12:07):
There's a lot of time and a lotof things to talk about. And of
course, at one point in theconversation, it naturally
drifted to talking about AItechnologies, and one of our
brothers has had a lot ofexperience in the healthcare
space and but he didn't reallysee the kind of opportunity that
(12:29):
he he thought might eventuallyexist in the current technology,
you know, the idea of Being ableto talk to a bot, or, you know,
to chat with something thatsounds and seems to be human and
to like explore your healthrelated topics, right? Not even
(12:52):
thinking about diagnosis oranything like treatment at all,
but just to satisfy yourcuriosity the same way you would
if you went online and you juststarted googling stuff, right?
That sort of exploration of howyou're feeling and and what
might be going on in your body,and the kind of things that
(13:13):
you'd want to do to to selfeducate yourself before maybe
talking to a professional. So Ihad recently heard another
podcast in which they talked tochatgpt that happened to be the
particular technology they wereusing at the time in this sort
of interactive way. And I wassurprised how much progress had
(13:38):
happened, like how natural itwas to actually talk to this
thing as if it were a person,and to have it talk back to you
in a way that showed a verynatural interest in what you
were talking about and drew youinto answering more questions
and kind of exploring the topicin a very natural way. And I by
(14:00):
the time we were done, I thinkthey'd become converts where
before, they were skeptical thatmaybe this could someday, maybe
it'll be interesting. But youknow, it really wasn't ready to
have any kind of impact onclinical care. By the end, our
more skeptical brother was evenspeculating that for simple
(14:23):
problems, maybe we could even goright to getting to a
prescription just by having ainteractive conversation with
technology like this that wouldhelp diagnose a UTI, or some of
those things that we already allknow what we have And but we
have to still go through theformality of actually physically
(14:45):
visiting a clinician or not.
Now, a lot of times these thingsare done with tele visits
instead. So I saw that. I sawour brothers go from being very
skeptical at the beginning thatthis could be used. Full to that
aha moment happened just in like1015, minutes. So I thought it
might be fun to have that sameconversation with you, to try
(15:10):
the technology out and see whathappens.
DeAnn Knighton (15:15):
I think so too.
Okay, so just so everyone knowsyou are going to be experiencing
this with us. We have not doneany setups or tests. So there
could be things that don't goexactly right, but that's all
right, but this will be a chanceif you are sitting there already
feeling yourself skeptical,let's see what you think about
this. Another mention I'll sayis, when we talk about AI
technology in this space, or anyspace, there's different ways to
(15:38):
utilize it, right? So, so likeCraig set up very well, this is
definitely more about utilizingthe tool as an interactive
resource to help people movetowards their goals or recovery,
or whatever it is that they areneeding to find when they go out
looking for answers. Is that,does that sound right? Craig, it
Unknown (16:02):
sounds good. So I think we want to have personas in
mind, right? So I think we'rethinking of the AI is like a
friend or a confidant or or evensomebody with a little bit of
clinical knowledge aboutrecovery. And then I think you
probably need to pick acharacter. I'm ready. You
(16:26):
already know who it is. Howwould you describe this? So
DeAnn Knighton (16:29):
my persona? So I actually just am actually
hearkening back to the earlydays for me, when I went to the
internet one day and put in. Howdo I find treatment? And what
would it mean? And tried to findanswers that way, with a whole
bunch of search engine responsespopping back up and trying to
(16:51):
figure out what was available tome. So I will. I'll focus,
though more on the vein ofstruggling with the idea of
whether or not I have an issuerelated to alcohol. How does
that feel? Yeah, yeah. And, and,you know what that what that
might mean. How would I begin toevaluate that, and what does
(17:15):
that mean for me moving forward,that that's kind of the way I
was thinking about it,
Unknown (17:19):
okay? And now, on the flip side, we get to customize
your experience a little bittoo, because one of the things
you get to choose is the voicethat you want to talk. And it's
interesting. It surprised me howmuch personality they're able to
put into these voices, not justin gender. You know, is it a
(17:40):
male voice or a female voice, oris it? Does it have that vaguely
European accent that we all seemto like? But even just
personality can come through ina voice. And so you can even
start by picking the personalityof the person that you want to
talk to. So I want to play someof the voices for you, and you
can pick the one that you likebest once see how that goes. I'm
(18:04):
not sure which of the firstpersonalities here are going to
pop up, but let's just listen toa few of them and we'll pick the
one that you like best. Okay,what's up? Feel free to ask me
about anything that's on yourmind. I'm ready to go. Okay,
that one's described as savvyand relaxed. How's
your day going? I'm reallylooking forward to working on
(18:26):
some cool stuff together.
That's breeze. They are animatedand earnest. I'm looking forward
to working together. Let'sfigure out where to start. And
that's spruce. They are calm andaffirming.
DeAnn Knighton (18:42):
I think I need common. I know that I need
common affirming. I need commonaffirming. The first one
reminded me too much of myself,that's fair, no. And I talked to
myself, wait, I get enough ofthat. Yeah, who needs more of
that? But this is alsointeresting, right? Because
there's a whole realm of like,when people seek help, looking
for the right match for them interms of the type of therapeutic
(19:03):
relationship they want, and ifit is calm and affirming or
supportive, or whatever thosedifferent indicators might be.
And isn't
Unknown (19:13):
it so much easier to explore 10 different
personalities that way and findit rather than to have to
actually talk to 10 differenttherapists. What it is that
you're looking for, that's
DeAnn Knighton (19:26):
fair. That's fair.
Hi, are you there?
Unknown (19:39):
Hey, yeah, I'm here.
What's up?
DeAnn Knighton (19:43):
Oh, yeah, hi, this is DeAnn. Do you have a
name?
Unknown (19:48):
Oh, good question. You can just call me chat GPT or
chat for short, I don't have apersonal name, but I'm here for
whatever you want to chat about.
Okay?
DeAnn Knighton (20:01):
Okay, well, I wanted to ask today, I have been
starting to feel concerned thatI might be drinking too much
alcohol, and I wanted to see ifyou could give me information on
that.
Unknown (20:15):
Oh, absolutely, I'm glad you brought that up. So
there's a lot to consider, butwe can start with some basics
like what counts as moderateversus heavy drinking and how it
affects your health. If youwant, we can talk through some
signs to watch for, or evenstrategies to cut back if that's
(20:36):
something you're interested in.
And of course, I can point youto some great resources or
guidelines. Let me know whatangle you want to start with,
and we can jump right in.
DeAnn Knighton (20:49):
Let's start with just evaluating the difference
between moderate and heavydrinking. So I have some idea.
Unknown (20:56):
You got it. Okay, so generally, moderate drinking is
considered up to one drink perday for women and up to two
drinks per day for men. Heavydrinking is more than that,
usually around eight or moredrinks per week for women and 15
or more for men. Of course,there's some nuance with things
(21:20):
like binge drinking or howalcohol affects you
individually, but those are thebroad strokes. If you want to
dig into specific types ofdrinks or situations, we can
definitely get more detailed.
DeAnn Knighton (21:35):
No, I think that's okay. That helps to
answer my question. I'mwondering, how do I determine if
I would benefit from gettingsupport for my drinking?
Unknown (21:49):
Oh, good question.
Okay, so one of the main thingsto look at is how your drinking
is affecting your life, if it'scausing problems with your
health, relationships orresponsibilities. That's a sign,
even if you're just feelinguneasy about how much you're
drinking, that's totally valid.
(22:10):
You can also look at things likehow easy it is to cut back, or
if you feel like you're relyingon alcohol to unwind. If any of
that sounds familiar, it mightbe worth talking to someone or
exploring some resources, andthere's no pressure. Just
figuring out what feels rightfor you is a great first step.
(22:33):
If you want to explore specifictools or approaches, we can do
that too.
DeAnn Knighton (22:41):
I'm interested in treatment, but to get started
today, can you give me someideas of things that I could do
on my own to maybe startaddressing this problem?
Unknown (22:52):
Oh, absolutely, great idea. So one really effective
thing is to set some small,specific goals around drinking,
like decide on a number ofalcohol free days each week, or
set a limit on how much you'lldrink in one sitting. Another
great tip is to find areplacement activity for times
(23:16):
when you normally have a drink,like going for a walk, trying a
new hobby, or even just drinkinga non alcoholic beverage you
enjoy. And if you want, we cantalk about apps or resources
that can help you track yourprogress. The key is starting
small and being kind to yourselfas you figure it out. If any of
(23:39):
that sounds interesting. We canbrainstorm some specifics.
DeAnn Knighton (23:45):
Yeah, I would be interested maybe in some of the
technology options that youmentioned that can help with
tracking.
Unknown (23:52):
You got it. There are some awesome apps out there for
tracking alcohol consumption andsetting goals. One popular
option is an act called Drinkcontrol. It helps you log
drinks, track patterns and evenconvert them into units for a
clearer picture. Another goodone is sunny side, which focuses
(24:15):
on mindful drinking and offerscoaching and reminders. If you
want something super simple, youcould even use a habit tracker
or a Notes app with a dailycheck in. There's a bunch of
options. So if you have aparticular style or feature in
mind, I can help you narrow itdown.
DeAnn Knighton (24:38):
Okay, what if I'm not able to do it on my own.
What if that doesn't work? Whatdo I do next?
Unknown (24:45):
Ah, good question. If you find it tough to manage on
your own, that's totally normal.
The next step could be reachingout to a professional like a
counselor or a support group.
There. Are even online programsand virtual meetings. If you
prefer something more flexible,the key is to remember you're
(25:08):
not alone, and there's no onesize fits all answer. Sometimes,
just having a conversation withsomeone who's been there can be
a huge help, if you want, we cantalk about specific types of
support, like finding a goodtherapist or checking out groups
(25:29):
like moderation management oreven Alcoholics Anonymous.
There's a ton of options, and wecan find something that feels
right for you.
DeAnn Knighton (25:42):
Do you have the availability or the ability to
look at resources in mycommunity?
Unknown (25:50):
Oh, absolutely. I can help with that. If you let me
know your general area, I canlook up local resources like
support groups, counselors oreven specific programs, there
are usually some great optionsnearby, whether you're looking
for something formal or morecasual. Just let me know what
(26:12):
kind of vibe you're after, and Ican get more specific.
DeAnn Knighton (26:17):
Yeah, I'm in Salt Lake City, and I really
need something that isn't goingto impact my life or my day to
day, I'm very busy.
Unknown (26:27):
Got it okay? So there are definitely options that are
flexible and can sneak rightinto your busy life. For
instance, there are onlinecounseling platforms like better
help or talk space that let youconnect with a professional on
your own schedule. There arealso apps that offer short,
(26:49):
guided check ins and support soyou can work on things in small
chunks whenever you have amoment. And Salt Lake City has
some fantastic local resourcesfor support groups and community
centers that are pretty low keyand flexible. If you want, I can
find a few specific options thatfocus on convenience and minimal
(27:13):
disruption.
DeAnn Knighton (27:16):
Yeah, I you know right now, I'm just feeling a
little bit overwhelmed with allof this information. I'm having
a hard time figuring out what todo next.
Unknown (27:25):
Oh, I totally get that.
It's a lot to take in,especially when you're already
busy and feeling overwhelmed.
How about this? We can startwith just one small step that
feels manageable, if you want, Ican suggest one simple thing to
try, and we can check in fromthere. Or if you want me to help
(27:49):
prioritize the information, wecan figure out the most
important piece to focus onfirst, just let me know what
feels right, and we can go fromthere.
So I muted it so we could talk alittle bit. What do you think
DeAnn Knighton (28:03):
so far? I'm really surprised, pretty
impressive. I am surprised abouthow well it reacts to like my
cadence of asking questions andnot, you know, because we've all
had that experience of talkingto Siri or Alexa right where we
have to, like, repeat five timesand say exactly the right phrase
(28:27):
to get a response right. Like,so what felt feels really
different here is like thepivoting is really surprising,
and then the information that isbeing given is exactly what
would be given if you weretalking to a live person. And in
fact, there's more ability, Ithink, for this to be able to
(28:47):
look at like resources quickly,you know, in a specific area,
probably more so than a personwould have the capability to do.
Unknown (28:56):
I found listening to you talk to it, that you slowed
down, yes, his speaking cadence,I think, yeah, yeah, which was
probably okay, right? That yes,that's a what do they call that
mirroring? I think I'm
DeAnn Knighton (29:14):
a counselor, so I have to mirror, yeah,
Unknown (29:18):
and in a way, you did mirror, but that's also part of,
I suppose, the experienceitself, right? You could have
talked to someone who talkedfaster as well, but maybe that's
part of what you would seek outin the voice that you would pick
is somebody that like if youwere anxious, then you would
look for someone who would calmyou and slow you down and get
(29:40):
you to be more deliberate. Ididn't. I thought all of it. I
never once felt like itmisunderstood you,
DeAnn Knighton (29:52):
right? That's what I was trying yes exactly
the answers were on point to thequestions and some of. Them were
double questions, you know, kindof complex questions. And it
even had room for me to havefiller, you know, oh, I don't
want to do that right now. And,like, move to my other question.
(30:13):
Yeah, I that that part issurprising. And yeah, you're
right. There is something withthe cadence that felt with him,
like, maybe with that voice, um,definitely, sometimes some
reminder, like, because it wasso slow and deliberate, but I
think he's programmed that way,right? So there might be other
voices that would feel even alittle bit more, more
Unknown (30:35):
a little bit, yeah, where you would but I it did
seem I could almost see in youreyes and in your face, as I was
watching you talk to it a pointwhere you stopped thinking about
the fact that it was technologyand thinking about what it was
saying. Yeah, you were. Youmoved from evaluating it to
(30:55):
like, Is this even worth mytime? To to thinking about the
information instead, and Isuppose, given your training
you, you were able to be muchmore immediately critical, like
to me, I don't know what anormal response would be to any
(31:16):
of those questions if you weretalking to somebody who was
appropriately trained to handlea situation like this. I
DeAnn Knighton (31:24):
mean, that's all the stuff. I would say, yeah,
and, and I would also say that Iwas surprised by how much
empathy it used, because evenwhen I would sort of lament, it
had kind of that properresponse. I Yes, let's do that.
Or I understand that, or thatlike to make you feel sort of
(31:44):
that affirming, like we'removing in the right direction.
So maybe that's more affirmationthan empathy. Now that I say
that, I'm trying to think, didit actually empathize?
Unknown (32:00):
What do you think? I think when, when you express
that you are overwhelmed. Ithought its response was
particularly empathetic. Well,then let's narrow things down
and just focus on one thing,
DeAnn Knighton (32:13):
yes, that Yeah.
I knew there were some, a coupleof examples where I felt the
empathy and I definitely feltthe affirmation, which are all
like core counseling skills,right that we like learn to
practice.
Unknown (32:25):
Would you now take yourself back to what did we
2333 days ago? If you had knownthat something like this
existed, would you have tried totalk to it?
DeAnn Knighton (32:37):
I probably wouldn't have, just because,
just because of me, like, Ithink I would have started
somewhere else, probably becauseit's the same thing, of like,
when I really need help, I needthat, I don't know, I would have
sought out a human,
Unknown (32:56):
a human, it makes sense now. Now let me flip it around.
Seeking out a human always hasrisks, right? Because, depending
on who that human is and howmuch you trust them is, are you
safe to even talk about thesetopics that one of the things I
find fascinating is that this isinherently safe,
DeAnn Knighton (33:16):
right? What if it had said to me? Oh my gosh,
you need to quit right away.
This is horrible. But, you know,just like started giving me all
of this, like, really scary,judgmental, like, Doomsday type
of advice.
Unknown (33:29):
Yeah, it could have done that, but it doesn't. I
think that's interesting that,but I think there's an element
of stigma, free safety that isgoing to make this interesting,
as it just continues to improve,I think it will be approachable
in ways that people aren't andin environments where you
(33:50):
wouldn't even normally think youknow it. I there are probably
people that are even afraid toGoogle. Am I a heavy drinker on
their work computer? Right?
Because their employer mightlearn something that they don't
want their employer to know. SoI think we're all surrounded by
this concern that not only willthis person be listening to me
(34:13):
and offering me information, butthat they might also be judging
me because they are. They haveanother role in my life, right?
DeAnn Knighton (34:24):
Yeah, the objectivity can actually be very
appealing, you know, in thesense of like, yeah, the
judgment, free feeling, and theinformation based on the best
available information. But Ialso think I wonder too, as
we're talking about this is likea little bit more of, like a
consultation conversation. Andmaybe we can do we can explore
(34:47):
this in future episodes, wherewe get more into something,
where it's actually finding thenext questions to ask me,
because that is very much, youknow, when you're talking about,
like counseling, that is verymuch about what is. The next
question to start drawing thatperson towards an outcome.
Unknown (35:05):
Do you want to try to do that now? Do you want to try
to pick that up and see or arewe out? We're out of time,
aren't we?
DeAnn Knighton (35:11):
Yeah, let's actually, I'll cut it off on
this, but I think we could comeback and do another version.
Curious, what that made youthink if it was different than
what you expected, if it wasexactly what you expected, if
this was something you alreadyknew everything about and
(35:31):
weren't surprised to hear howeffective it was at helping me
through this issue in a fairly,you know, comfortable way, I
would love to hear, what areyour fears about this, all of
the different things that mightbe running through your brain
right now. And I just want tosay, as we move forward with
this podcast, we're going to beexploring a lot of different
technology and resources, andeverything is about the
(35:53):
exploration process, not theendorsement process. It's about
helping you get as muchinformation about what's out
there as possible. However, Ithink this is part of the future
that we're in, and so hopefullyyou found this useful to
consider how it could be appliedin the world of recovery and
substance use disorder. So wewill be back in a couple of
(36:15):
weeks with our next episode.
Craig, anything else you'd liketo share with the audience
before I
Unknown (36:21):
just want to thank you for your open mind and for
kicking out with me a littlebit. I
DeAnn Knighton (36:26):
love it. I thought that was awesome.
Alright, let us know what youthink. We will go ahead and wrap
this up. There'll be links inthe show notes on how to find
us. Love to hear from you withany feedback, you can send me
messages directly to DeAnn atshow up and stay.org if you have
an innovation or somethingyou're interested in hearing
about on the show that itrelates to the world of
(36:47):
behavioral health and substanceuse disorder, please send that
my way as well. We'd love tohear from you. You can find more
information about our network ofpodcasts and other services at
show up and stay.org and thankyou so much for being here.
We'll see you soon.
Unknown (37:04):
Be well. Be well. You.
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