The Material Girl: Madonna’s Marilyn Moment

"Material Girl" was the second single from Madonna’s ridiculously successful 1984 album “Like a Virgin,” peaking at #2 in 1985. By borrowing some powerful imagery from another iconic blonde (Marilyn Monroe) for the music video, Madonna earned a nickname that stuck. We discuss the making of the song and video and chat about materialism, influencer culture, Marie Kondo, and even Karl Marx and Cartesian dualism. (Gulp.) Join us as we make our first foray into the catalog of the best selling female artist of all time, the Queen of Pop herself, Madonna Louise Ciccone. 

Check out the video for Material Girl directed by Mary Lambert. 

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Episode Transcript

Margaret (00:05):
Welcome to Sick burns, where to Gen X friends of
corporate PR pro and a collegeEnglish professor deliver choice
critique on 80 songs.

Unknown (00:13):
I'm Margaret. And I'm Elizabeth. Let's get into it
today.
How are you doing?

Elizabeth (00:23):
Listen, I'm really good. I have I think in a past
episode, we joked about havingpaid friends like the person who
acts as my eyebrows and personwho does my hair. Yeah. And I
have a new paid friend. And hisname is Ben. And he's taught me
how to knit and I am dependenton him for knitting advice. But

(00:43):
I really like him. And I like topretend that he likes me.

Unknown (00:46):
Have you ever thought about asking him directly? Do
you like me? I like you. Do youlike me?
I am thinking about it. Butbecause he's like a guru type of
knitting to me. I call him Benknit ob.
Who is face?
I'll tell him next time.
Where did you find Ben?

Elizabeth (01:05):
It was like a pure moment of serendipity. I had
always noticed this little yarnshop, which by the way was new
is near a house we hadconsidered buying a long time
ago when we were moving here.
And at the time, I was like, ayarn shop. No, I wish not to be
near that. But as it turns out,I shop at this little like hippy
grocery that's in the shoppingcenter where it is, uh huh. And

(01:28):
I had had, I had endured sometwo hours zoom meeting for work,
where that was very hard on mylike, eyes and brain and
everything to pay attention. Andas I was going to the hippie
grocery store, I looked to theside for a second and saw the
yarn store. And I was like, youknow what I could do during zoom

(01:49):
meetings, I could fucking knit,because that is better than
doodling like you havesomething. Yeah. As opposed to
doodling when you have garbage.
And I thought just on a lark, Ijust walked in and asked if they
did lessons. And he said, Yes.
And I took the lessons. And I'mso glad I did. And I knit
during, for example, painfultelevision, like presidential

(02:13):
and vice presidential debates.
Mm hmm. And during zoommeetings, and you know, I'm
stuck at home with luck, youknow, little bits of time that
are very random that I have, andI can just like, do something
with my hands in that time. Andthen you have something to show
for yourself,

Margaret (02:32):
do the people on the zoom meetings with you mind that
your knitting? Is it not thekind of thing need to be like
taking notes, or you're justsort of passively listening?

Elizabeth (02:41):
Sometimes I do have to take notes. And that's okay,
and great. And you know, thenit's, I can look my look away.
And I'm looking down and takingnotes and involved in that way.
But sometimes I'm in meetingswith like 20 or 50 people, and
I'm not a participant, and I cantotally Listen, like while I'm
doing something else. And itworks really well for that, you

(03:03):
know, I

Margaret (03:03):
read when my kids were in grammar school, I got this
book to help them learn betterstudy habits. And a couple of
the tips that they gave were, ifyou're a kinesthetic learner,
which my son is that you'resupposed to do things with your
hands while you're studying orgoing over material. And because

(03:27):
it helps your brain retain it.
And one of the things that theysuggest doing is like throw a
ball to each other while you'rereciting multiplication tables,
or what have you, or historyfacts. And that seems kind of
like the same idea. That's alsothe reason that they say Doodle,
the thing that you're learningabout because the activity, I
don't know, it just unlocks somepart of your brain that helps

(03:51):
your learning.

Elizabeth (03:53):
Yeah, I've heard that. Well, I do when I'm in
smaller meetings when I don'thave to take notes. I do knit I
don't ask permission. I don'treally need to but it's obvious
that I'm listening andparticipating. So so I don't
think I mean, maybe people areannoyed. I think I've been
annoyed with people who knit inmeetings that it seems like an
affectation or like they'redoing something else. But

Unknown (04:13):
But now, you know, it's a compulsion.

Elizabeth (04:15):
I totally get it. I think people have taken up
knitting also to quit smoking,you know.

Unknown (04:21):
See?
Yeah, exactly. And I met a womanwho said she knits she's a
lifetime knitter. But she hasespecially depended on it to
keep herself from snacking atnight, because she just was
like, occupied this way. And Icould really see that too.
Welcome to knitting talk withElizabeth.

Elizabeth (04:41):
Well, that's why I tried to say fucking knitting
because I wanted to like spiceit up a little. Yeah,

Margaret (04:46):
well, that was effective. I mean, I'm sold on
the radical nature of yourknitting. I will say one of my
very best friends in the wholeworld. Tim is a crochet Yeah,
and he had actually he's goingthrough right now and making
like every friend he ever had adescent collar because after RBG

(05:09):
died, we're all like, can youplease make me a design? So he's
working on mine now, but hemakes he's doing some blanket
that has skulls on it, which isa very like punk rock crochet
design.

Elizabeth (05:23):
I've heard of this.
Somebody just told me abouttheir friend making it and it
sounds amazing.

Unknown (05:28):
It's really cool.
Have you seen it?

Margaret (05:31):
He sent me some like Snapchat pictures of it of the
detail of the skull heads. Andit's really gorgeous. And
reminds me of is it AlexanderMcQueen? Who that's like one of
his motifs is this. Oh,

Unknown (05:43):
maybe so he's, he's dead,
I believe. Yeah, Yeah, he is.
But that Yeah, that soundsfamiliar. Yeah, he had a punk
thing going on, I

Margaret (05:51):
believe for sure. I think Vivienne Westwood. Yeah.
fired him. And yes, but yeah, soyeah, knitting can be very,
like, I don't know. I don't knowif Oh, yeah.

Unknown (06:03):
edgy.
Yeah.
I'm super cool.
So all of those things.

Elizabeth (06:08):
Well, I think it's the gardening of winter, you
know, because apparently likeeveryone during this pandemic,
like freaked out and garden tothe bejesus out of their yard.
They absolutely did. And likenurseries were sold out of every
seedling and seed and everythingall summer long. And I get it. I
was. And look, I already had agarden. And weeding was very

(06:31):
pleasurable under thecircumstances. I mean,
physically painful. Sure, butalso like, you're just like,
methodical, and like just doingthe thing that's right in front
of you.

Unknown (06:41):
I guess. I hate waiting. I don't know what your

Elizabeth (06:44):
Yeah, I felt like I jumped out of bed with joy
knowing I had to weed but I justmean like, Yeah, but anyway, but
it was also like caring for thisgarden. And anyway, I feel like
knitting is a little bit likethat. Because it's just like
your local thing like in frontof your face. Do Yeah, well,
making something

Margaret (07:02):
there is real pleasure and feeling productive. In a
way. That's more than like,well, I got 20 emails written
today. And right. I really feellike I got some stuff done. I
mean, that's so femoral inpassing. There's nothing to show
for it. And there's going to bemore tomorrow. Yeah. Which I
guess you could say aboutgardening as well. But there is
a cycle to it. Yes. Like itstarts in the spring, and it

(07:25):
ends in the fall, and then youget a little break, and there
are seasons to it. Whereas emailis a never ending, ticking
grind. That will end when youdie.

Elizabeth (07:37):
Yes. Not that you have any feelings about email my
cut off on whatsoever. But it isit is a grinding, constant
presence, metallic presence onlike organic things.

Margaret (07:50):
Yes, absolutely. And then when you're not looking at
your email, people text you tosay, Did you get my email? Oh,
my God. I just got a text likethat. Right before we started
recording. And I'm

Elizabeth (08:02):
I did that to Ben Adobe, because I was afraid he
wasn't okay.

Unknown (08:07):
You sent me the you send him the text that said, Did
I get my email?

Elizabeth (08:11):
Well, I said I called because he had not answered my
email,

Unknown (08:16):
retro of you. But then I said, just delete my
emails because

Margaret (08:20):
it says the same thing. When when people say
like, if I see them in thehallway at work, or when I saw
them, I should say past tensebecause God only knows when this
will ever happen to me again.
And people say, Did you read myemail? And I want to say, if I
did, I think I would havereplied to you,

Unknown (08:37):
you should just say yes and passively and stare at them.
I just answered your question.
Yes. I read your email.

Margaret (08:46):
And then they look at you like I have said yes. And
they look at you like Why didn'tyou respond? Uh huh. The obvious
answer is because I didn't havetime, like something got in the
way of me replying to you.

Unknown (09:00):
Yeah, we're the center of my universe. I

Margaret (09:03):
don't know. It's like when people say when were you
going to tell me that? Rightnow, when I told you that's what
I was going to tell you. I wasgonna tell you the minute it
came out of my mouth. That wasthe plan. What are these
questions,

Unknown (09:20):
people? I don't know.
Worst.
gardens and knitting knittingare great.

Elizabeth (09:28):
Yeah. See, they won't be trained you like that or say
dumb shit to your face in thatdumb way?
No, but they will be like,ruined by nature. Like Yes,
that's the tough thing aboutfarming and gardening is that's
true. The bodies.

Margaret (09:42):
Yeah, or the deer or the hail or the locusts or
crickets or, you know, I don'tknow named mums pestilence or a
natural disaster of some kindlocusts. Yeah, sometimes that
just doesn't work out for youand you starve and die.

Elizabeth (09:58):
Yeah, well, my knitting won't be trying Though
but in that way ever you knowyou just like put it inside

Margaret (10:04):
and you get you get your you get arthritis as my
husband says and he's a syllablehis grandma called at that and
he thought it was like namedafter twin your Arthur isn't
inflammation of the Arthur.

Elizabeth (10:21):
I wish I knew an annoying person named Arthur cuz
I would Oh gosh, I have Margaretitis

Margaret (10:28):
Margaret is inflamed.
You need to put some south onthat mark is an undulant.

Unknown (10:37):
Well, so in keeping up lifting gum,

Elizabeth (10:42):
yeah. But I will just say in keeping with number one
knitting being cool. And numbertwo, the theme of our show, I
knitted fluorescent pink legwarmers, which is very 80s.
That's a very sad thing. Yeah,for my niece. I'm a Tia. My
sister in law is Mexican. And soI'm Tia Elizabeth.

Unknown (10:59):
And that's so cute.
So when your Tia grows up in the80s, then you've got a middle
aged Tia and who learns how toknit and who makes you for some
pink leg warmers?

Margaret (11:10):
I love it. Did you have fluorescent pink leg
warmers when you were young?

Elizabeth (11:13):
It I doubt it but I sincerely believe slash em
incepting myself with a memorythat I desired them intensely.

Margaret (11:22):
I bought a pair maybe like 10 years ago, I was like,
You know what, there are certaintrends from the 80s I miss a lot
and I don't want to wait forthem to come back. Because there
was real speaking of pleasure,there was real pleasure in them.
And leg warmers was one of them.
Because you get that gapsometimes between your socks and
your pain.

Unknown (11:41):
Totally. I'm totally gonna

Margaret (11:42):
make myself a pair now and you and yes, well, you
should. And I would say alsoanother thing that I'm really
hoping comes back in a strongway sometime soon is stirrup
pants, because if you're tryingto tuck your pants into your
socks, a big chunky sock andthey keep popping out, you
really need that stirrupunderneath your heel. I love

(12:04):
that feeling of everything beingall tucked in.

Elizabeth (12:06):
So amazingly, friggin body suits have come back which
is a 90 thing, but stirrup pantshave not. bodysuits introduces
bathroom going issues there andthey don't flatter. Many they
may be flat or 2% of thepopulation and our major

(12:26):
logistical hurdles, but thestirrup pants are the body suits
of the legs.

Margaret (12:32):
Yeah, uh huh. And they make so much more sense. And I
do like the way a body suitstays tucked into your pants.
But it does. You're not takingyour pants off at the ankle as
much as you are pulling yourpants down. Right in the potty.

Unknown (12:50):
Yes, so yeah, my God

Margaret (12:52):
really good analogy.
But yeah, we're very tucked inand the 80s Marawi. Everything
was snapped in and tucked in andclass.

Elizabeth (13:00):
Yeah, that's a comforting, pegged and rolled
and uh huh, uh huh. Hide? Yeah,well, it was the counter to the
loose and flowy and all the hellover the place of the 70s. I
kind of

Margaret (13:11):
bound up but take your jelly bracelets and time and
knots and string them aroundyour wrist.

Elizabeth (13:17):
Oh, yeah. guard your swatch with a braided got swatch
guard. That's right.

Margaret (13:21):
Don't let anybody take that swatch. Well, it's really
speaking Why were we so bound?
righties?

Elizabeth (13:28):
Right. The reactionary in us too, because
I'm picturing like, peasantblouses in the 70s and like
extremely frizzy hair. In fact,to me like the epitome of 70s
frizzy hair is Rita Coolidge onthe Muppet Show. I think we
mentioned the Muppet Show on alot of our redo burns episodes,
even though I think that's a 70sphenomenon, but Rita Coolidge

(13:48):
and Kris Kristofferson wereguests on the Muppet Show, her
hair is such a fire hazard. It'slike down to her butt. And it's
a very, yeah, frizzy and curlyand curly. You can't you
couldn't say curly, it's reallyjust frizzy when I really

Unknown (14:04):
needed to trim

Elizabeth (14:05):
Yes, and she was like, very beautiful, you know,
like a very beautiful person.
But you just can't believe ithasn't caught on fire. And it's
so and so I'm just thinking ofthat in my mind as the
unruliness and like, I guess,Robert Plant of LEDs, uplands
hair, and like, his shirt sortof like flapping around him
while he was saying, you know,

Unknown (14:25):
oh, yeah. Oh,

Elizabeth (14:28):
ultra hot, of course.
But also like loosen flapflapping. And flappy is like,
unlike what the 80s phenomenonthat you are noting.

Margaret (14:36):
And so you're right, maybe it was like a reaction to
the loose flowiness, althoughthe hair was pretty bushy in the
80s, but it had more it had likeproduct in it.

Elizabeth (14:48):
And like, Yeah, yes.
I mean, that was like the dawnof hair product, wasn't it?
What? What was the gel dippitydo

Margaret (14:56):
you do was from the 50s I think but but We used it
for height in the 80s. And inthe 50s it was like slick it
back or maybe you put it in but,uh huh. Trying to get as big as
you could in the 80s Uh huh.

Elizabeth (15:11):
Yeah, maybe like fashion cycles are really can be
seen in terms of like, tuckeduntouched, tucked on tucked,
tucked untucked, you know?

Margaret (15:20):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what else in the world
we had untucked as

Unknown (15:24):
a look. Well, the 90s grunge

Margaret (15:27):
Yes. Very good. I'm thinking like 1500 1600 17 Oh,

Unknown (15:33):
you're in the long game.

Margaret (15:35):
But yeah, we had like corseted on course it did.
course it did. on course it did.

Elizabeth (15:40):
Really, was there ever uncorseted like boots and
Tommy's just flapping around?

Unknown (15:47):
I guess. I don't know.
I doubt it'snearly I mean, now. Thank God.

Elizabeth (15:59):
Yeah. Well, I don't I don't know. Well, listen, this
doesn't have to do with fashion.
But I have a little 80s thing to80s themed thing to share with
you. Yeah. Tell me. And I justheard on the radio this morning.
Do you remember Patty Smyth?
Yeah, I

Unknown (16:16):
do. She's great.

Elizabeth (16:18):
Well, I never knew.
So I sing the warrior fairlyregularly around the house.
Let's call it a few times ayear. But I never put together
that it was Patti Smith. Andalso I think that's leftover
from my personal childhoodproblem of Patti Smith and Patti
Smith being mixed up in my ownsame,

Unknown (16:35):
yes, even though obviously, so very
different. But well, in anycase, Patty Smyth was on the
radio this morning because shehas a new album. Fran, she

Margaret (16:45):
does, yes, this is right now he's my phone scandal
or whatever was

Unknown (16:50):
printed. Right. Wow.
That was of heartache. Well,guess who she's married to?
I don't know.
JOHN McEnroe.
tennis player.

Elizabeth (16:58):
Yes. And also he does the I just want to give a plug
here. He does a voiceover like anarration for that Mindy
Kaling Netflix show. Never hve I ever did you watch that?

Unknown (17:09):
No, I did. I don't think I've even heard of it.

Elizabeth (17:12):
It is a freakin dorable. So you should watch it
and maybe your daughter willlike it. I don't. It's like, you
know, it's about a teenager butit's got a lot of sex jokes in
it. So all right, you know, let

Unknown (17:25):
me hand that right to her. Yeah.

Elizabeth (17:28):
Right, just for you.
But it's the show isextraordinarily adorable and
charming. And john McEnroeMcEnroe does the, you know,
omniscient narrator voice of it,which makes it part of its
charm, I guess. But anyway,they've been married for 20.
Some years. He jams apparently.
And it's very hard. He doesn'thave a very musical voice, let's

(17:52):
say. And so it's hard to picturehim jamming. But the little
anecdote that she shared besidestalking about her new album and
what she's doing during thepandemic, and that kind of
stuff, she also said because shewas asked about Eddie Van Halen
upon the occasion of his recentdeath, if about her relationship
with them because they Van Halenasked her to be their vocalists.

(18:16):
I wouldn't point at the pointwhen David Lee Roth left the
band. I think it was then yes,

Unknown (18:21):
wow.

Elizabeth (18:22):
Yeah. And she was eight months pregnant at the
time. We said no,

Margaret (18:28):
and can't understand why she wouldn't want to go on
tour with Van Halen eight monthspregnant.

Unknown (18:33):
Well, she was she does wish she would have, you know,
thought about it a little bitmore before she answered. Sure.
But it was sort of unthinkablefor her at the time, but but I
thought that was kind of a coolstory.

Margaret (18:43):
That is fascinating.
The last thing I heard from johnMcEnroe, he recorded a a sleep
story for the calm app. Oh,yeah, the calm app,

Elizabeth (18:54):
which I do. Yes. With a lot of celebrity sleep
stories. Yes.

Margaret (18:58):
They got a lot of headlines when Harry Styles
released a sleep story recently,which is really nice. I enjoy
listening to when I go to sleep.
But john McEnroe reads the rulesof tennis. Oh, boy will Pat put
you to sleep that is so boring.

Unknown (19:18):
So even with his voice monotone like yelling voice,

Margaret (19:23):
a heat speaks calmly and good in this instance,
because it's a calm app. Sothat's the direction they gave
him but you can hear like he's alittle Ryan a little cheeky. He
makes some jokes about it beingsilly or boring or whatever.
That's one of my favorites tolisten to. Because it's so dry.

Unknown (19:41):
Yeah, girl john McEnroe. You know,
he was he's got a frizzy hair.

Elizabeth (19:46):
Yeah, no doubt and somebody who was like really
defined. I'm trying to segueinto our song for the day. He
was somebody who was reallydefined by one thing. You know,
like every Buddy like you justhad this I like john McEnroe
temper done

Unknown (20:04):
knows good tennis bad temper.

Elizabeth (20:06):
Yeah, totally. And the song that I wanted to talk
to you about today, the artistsuffered thusly by being defined
by one thing by the song for herentire career. And I'll just say
I just want to give a shout outto our fan and listener Dale Wu,
who suggested this song and itwas an excellent suggestion. It
led to a lot of interestinglittle tidbits and trivia and

(20:30):
sidebars. Well, I'm telling youthat ahead of time, but I guess
that remains to be seen.

Unknown (20:36):
I'll be the judge of

Elizabeth (20:38):
exactly. But that song is Material Girl by
Madonna.

Sick Burns! (20:45):
Dog telephone children a doorbell
like sick burns podcast takeyour food from home to move when
lush fragrances and soft silkywaters caress your body. Relax

(21:08):
your mind. It's another worldepisode.
Two sick birds episode. yourselfin luxury.

Margaret (21:22):
Nice. I can't wait to get into this one.

Unknown (21:25):
Did we give it a little lesson first?
Yeah, let's listen. What a greatsong.

Elizabeth (22:15):
It's such a good song. And to this day though, I
am mystified why she chose thatpronunciation of material world
and girl you know,

Margaret (22:24):
don't a lot of American singers sing in a
British accent.

Unknown (22:28):
I would believe it like who else does?

Margaret (22:33):
I don't know but I'm but I do. Maybe not so many of
you know the singer Phoee Bridge

Unknown (22:40):
that's not Phoebe waller's bridges of Flea Ba
So the singer Phoebe B. Has ths song. She's contem
orary singer, but she's got ths song on an album from 2017.
t's called motion sicknes. And it's about the singer
Ryan Adams. Yeah, ex husbanof Mandy Moore. And ex boyfri

(23:03):
nd of lots of peopleand like us. Alleged big jerk.
es.
Yes, alleged big jerk. I guesslots of people have accused him
of like, emotional abuse andthings like this. And she's got
this song called motionsickness, which is kind of a
diss track about him. She says,Why do you sing in an English
accent? I guess it's too late tochange that. And then she says,

(23:26):
When I was born, you werealready in a band. The point
is she's making fun of RyanAdams for singing in a British
accent. Yeah.
So that's one other person.
I mean, I don't know. My husbanddoes it and I'm like, What the
hell? You're from WickliffeOhio. Why are you singing like
this?
I feel like Madonna in the songonly does it though. In that one

(23:49):
chorus part like every othertime she sings the words
material and world and girl shesings that with her normal
American accent except when it'slike drawn out.
She had a momentary just afeeling of Anglophilia pas
ed over her and sheshe had that later today. And
she didn't she gets someinterviews with like, sort of
weirdo faux British accentNow in fairness, I think she was

(24:09):
living there at the time. Yeah,well, she was called the shit
and still is probably called theMaterial Girl, everybody Well,
after you know, that's just hername became her name.
Yes. And I do feel bad for her abit. But I mean, she did buy a
castle in Portugal, so she's notdoing a lot to prove people

(24:30):
wrong.
Right. So did you ever own justas a little side note before I
tell you some things about thehistory of the song and so
forth. I just would like to knowabout your fishnet fingerless
glove history if you have one orblack rubber bracelets or any of
that kind of thing.
I had the black rubberbracelets. I had a long lace

(24:54):
skirt. Hmm,like black was white. Oh, even
better.
Yep. And You could like wear ityou'd like layer it with other
things. Yeah, you are like avirgin.
Yeah. And I had another likelong skirt that I would wear
over it and then it would likepull one side of it up and tie
it in a knot. So you could likeSee? Oh, the last thing is kind

(25:16):
of like a canned girl orsomething immodest a bit.
nicer pants.
And that's about as far I didn'thave like a bustier or anything
I don't have some fingerlesgloves
Did you? Yeah, I think I did,too. I definitely had a bunch of
black rubber bracelets. Let'ssee. That was 1985. So I was

(25:40):
probably a bit young. I think myparents were not necessarily
supportive of spending a lot ofmoney on my fashion whims. Sure,
especially if they wererevealing some of those things
you could like the gloves andthe bracelets. You could sort of
do that was definitely Iremember the moment Well,
yeah, her fashions influencespilled over into all kinds of

(26:01):
things that went on girls werewhat I mean, what will be like
12 and 13 when Like a Virgincame out, I guess. I wasn't
wearing boost days to the clubor anything. I was just get
right. In my parents went downwith that album.
Yeah, no, mine weren't either. Ithink I remember maybe somebody

(26:21):
gave me the album for like abirthday or something like that.
Because I do remember owning it.
Like I can see it. And I think Ihave a memory of my parents
saying she looked stupid orsomething, you know, like not
saying, Uh huh. not commentingon the sexuality of the image so
much as like trying to put herdown as like looking like a
negative in a way they thoughtwould appeal to me and so

(26:45):
not not intelligent.
Yes. Look at her. She'snot smart. Really. She just made
millions of dollars. So yeah,it's not smart now.

Elizabeth (26:54):
Yeah, I will say like, from what I learned about
the song and the video andeverything the production.
Smart. Yes, I would have saidclever, clever as shit in many,
many ways. I don't know how muchshe can be attributed with that.
Because I think that the videodirector probably came up with
the concept for it. So I cantalk about the video first. So

(27:16):
it was listeners may recall, ormaybe they want to take a look
at it. It is an homage or it's arecreation really of a scene
from the Marilyn Monroe movie,Gentlemen Prefer Blondes and
Madonna is dressed in this sortof hot pink taffeta gown and
she's draped with diamonds. Andshe's like, dancing on kind of a
Busby Berkeley kind of stage.
And with men and tuxes, likepassing her around and

(27:37):
everything like that, and theclever ness to me at least a
little bit as of her associatingherself with Marilyn Monroe. And
once again in this like 80snostalgia for the 50s Mm hmm.
Yeah, right. Yeah, no, but alsobecause of the ways she
identified with having likebeing defined by her sexuality
and being sort of pigeon holedin these various ways by the

(28:01):
public. So I don't know how,quote unquote smart she was
about it, but it definitely likeworked for her and cemented her
as kind of an icon, you know,her association with Marilyn
Monroe.

Unknown (28:14):
Did you know who Marilyn Monroe was before that
video came out? Oh, goodquestion. When did she die? Did
she die when in our lifetime?

Margaret (28:23):
No, she died while Kennedy was president, right?
h,

Elizabeth (28:27):
or after maybe after?
Yeah, maybe? So? That's a goodquestion. And I have no way of
knowing but certainly, thatvideo would have brought her to
consciousness much more thananything else. You know,

Margaret (28:38):
I think she's so good at using these super powerful,
iconic images. You know, whetherit's Marilyn Monroe, or Christ
or whoever. brides or

Unknown (28:50):
Yeah, that cross thing has been working for centuries.
Certainly not the first.

Elizabeth (28:57):
Well, I'll just say about the video. Since we're
talking about it. Just a littlebit of fun trivia was directed
by somebody named Mary Lambert,who now directs kind of directed
video horror movies. Now

Unknown (29:07):
it's a woman directed it.
A woman directed Oh, cool. Ididn't know that

Elizabeth (29:12):
not only a woman director, but also a woman whose
younger sister was BlancheLincoln, the Senator from
Arkansas until 10 years ago orso. The director's

Margaret (29:22):
younger sister was the Senator from Arkansas. Yes. What
an accomplished family.

Elizabeth (29:27):
I know. This is not the cheese none. I will say this
was a United States senator.

Unknown (29:35):
I think she beats Jacko marzetti or whatever his name
was. Shana.

Elizabeth (29:42):
No cheese, none she.
Oh, and I could tell you alittle bit about Gentlemen
Prefer Blondes which I did see.
Have you seen that movie?

Unknown (29:49):
I have not. It's really good. I

Elizabeth (29:51):
mean, just like all Marilyn Monroe movies, it turns
out Marilyn Monroe was fairlytalented. But I will say that
the Video for Material Girl ithas a little ironic layer
another layer of it because thelove interest in the video
played by Keith Carradine. Mmhmm Do you know the difference

(30:11):
between Keith Carradine andDavid Carradine by the way?

Unknown (30:14):
Um, they're they have different first names.

Elizabeth (30:16):
Yeah, one of them is alive and one is dead. Is that
correct?

Unknown (30:20):
No, I don't know.

Elizabeth (30:21):
Well, when I'm when I'm in the nursing home and
demented I will get thecarotenes mixed up with the
almonds

Margaret (30:27):
are the carotenes related is one of the Father and
one the son and one was in theTV show about grasshopper.

Unknown (30:35):
They might be cousins like the Fonda's Oh, okay.
I don't know. I feel likethere's all these like 17 guys.

Margaret (30:42):
Which cousins are the Fonda's? Nephew?

Unknown (30:45):
Uncle?

Margaret (30:46):
No, Peter and Jane were brother and sister and

Unknown (30:50):
that's bad.
I thought Henry was their uncle.
No, sir. Dad. Oh, my God.
Somebody check Benny, who's ourengineer, our producer, Nigel.
Check.
We check on that. Thanks, Joe.
But it's a whole group of themsitting back there. Yeah, I

(31:12):
know what who's got somebody onit?
Who is the ombre you on it? Andyou get the Can you just
check it? Just Wikipedia? Idon't know. Just Wikipedia.
Okay. But all those like 70s and80s. You know, families? I
don't know they blend togetherbut in any case, dynasties, the
entertainment dynasties. Yeah,totally.
So Keith Carradine is the loveand trust and he is trying to

(31:35):
get with the Madonna character.
Yes, he overhears that she isactually like not interested in
a diamond necklace that someonegives her. And so but even
though she's like involved inthis big lavish production and
covered with ermine, furs, andso forth, so then he puts two
and two together and just picksa bunch of modest daisies, and
brings the daisies and then buysa little cute old jalopy from I

(31:59):
don't know why they include thisdetail from the like old man
farmer.
They have we in the video heguys the jalopy? Yes. They
remember that they show himhanding over like a little
stack a lot, a small stack ofdollar bills. To an like 80 year

(32:20):
old man and overalls and a handperhaps a hat
to invent this artifice to herof being poor look. Yes, Robert,
July, please.
Take these daisies and she comesout of the set, you know because
she's filmed the video orwhatever. And she because it's
all these like layers of meta,whatever. And she looks kind of

(32:43):
punk. You know, like the Madonnathat got dropped off in Time
Square with $25 or whatever, youknow. And but she does have I
think maybe some kind ofrhinestones or something but and
her thick eyebrows andeverything. And she's carrying
her little daisies and then theyget in the jalopy and I think
they show them making out. Shefalls for it
is what you're telling me?
Yeah. So it's kind of meant tobe like ironic and that they

(33:05):
show that you wrote that shereally can be won over with not
just diamonds, but daisies. Soreally what she's in it for is
like the the unassuming. She'snot a material girl.
She cares about a small gesture,correct? Oh, yeah. So that's the
video listeners. Take a look atit and tell us what you think.
But now I'm going to tell youmore about the song. Okay. Yeah,

(33:25):
yeah, do it. All right. Well,some little bit of trivia is
just that it was produced byNile Rodgers, who really you'd
be hard pressed to find some 80shit that did not have his
fingerprints on it in some wayor another right. He was a
founding member of Sheikh andthey had their own hits.
However, they also got likelooped into samples galore,

(33:47):
including rappers delight, andthere's a Daft Punk song that
uses a Sheik clip and NileRodgers helped produce Well, he
he wrote, We Are Family bySister Sledge. She also wrote
I'm coming out Diana Ross'shits, and he produced David
Bowie's album Let's dance. Heproduced a couple Duran Duran

(34:11):
sounds like the reflex andnotorious and an excess his
original sin. He's just like,oh my goodness, totally
everywhere. Although prolific,so prolific. so talented.
I Wow. I'm super impressed. Andchic. Today sing. Love freak.

(34:32):
I believe they did. Okay. Yes. Ithink they were at the tail end
of the disco maybe or the heightof it. I don't know the years
Exactly. The Disco craze? Ithink that's right. Because
didn't say love freak say chic.
Inna youngness Oh, yeah, I thinkthat was one of those. He's an
interesting guy himself. I'lljust say he was born to a 13
year old mother. Oh, I know. Andthat's always like a little

(34:55):
unthinkable when peopleAh, goodness.
It was when he was a bit olderthat his mom married some crazy
beatnik. I'd need to check onthis detail, but I think that
the beatnik that his mothermarried was like a PhD student,
which is very funny to me havingbeen one once and he was like a

(35:19):
beatnik. This new husband Ithink I already said that. They
lived in Greenwich Village, andthey moved in like sort of
intellectual circles and guestsat their home included Lenny
Bruce, Richard Pryor, TheloniousMonk, yeah, oh my gosh,
I know. Also though, some heroinuse. Oh dear, which sometimes

(35:40):
came along with that. Butanyways, now Rogers lives yet
and thrives. And he is one ofthe most interesting and
experienced guys in the musicbusiness. And so I just wanted
to note him because he's theproducer of the song.
I feel like I want to read it.
Does he have a memoir or a movieabout his life does no way I
need to read it. Iwish I could remember the

(36:01):
memoirs name Benny.
Can you check that out? Can youWikipedia that
like now? faster this time?
Okay, thanks. Slow. I see. Sosit together, dude. God. The
other thing to say? Okay, sothen there's some more things to
say about this song. It'stalking about materialism. Yes,
by which it means something kindof like shallow. And you know

(36:25):
about like, just accumulatinggoods and so forth. I would like
to say so fucking What? It'sokay to want to be comfortable
and have beauty like those seemlike natural, normal human
needs. Yeah. But also, I amlinking Material Girl with this
beach that's sort of famousgiven by Gordon Gekko in Wall

(36:47):
Street. No character played bywhat's his Michael dog Michael
Douglas, when he that ends withhim saying greed is good. And
that's that film was in 1987,which is a couple years after
Material Girl, but I feel likethe 80s were kind of about like
re animating or reinvigoratingthese ideas that were like sort

(37:08):
of cynical, but making them seemmore wholesome. Yes. does seem
very vague. And to do that,doesn't it? It does. Yes.
Mm hmm.
I feel like analysis. Yeah, Ifeel like everything's so clear
now. And at the time, we werejust like, Oh, no, no, it's a
good song, I guess. And like now30 years later, it like all
falls into this pattern. And I'mlike, What the fuck were we

(37:31):
thinking? Well, yeah,octave? I mean, you don't know
you can't see the forest for thetrees. True. That's the that's
the the grace and the gift oftime.
But maybe it is a good thingthat people started to consider
like personal comfort and beautyaround them more seriously. I

(37:53):
don't know. Oh,thanks me. Without Penny just
been given a paper from theresearch department. Oh,
what did I sayNile Rodgers memoir is called
love freak.
Oh, well, that answers yourquestion. Yes.
Much like Born to Run is thename of Bruce Springsteen's
autobiography.

(38:15):
In a much the same vein.
Where is Nigel looking up allthat?
Fonda stuff. The Fonda's stuff.
Yeah. Pete. Okay.
God, he just came in. Here comeshere comes Nigel with the Sony

(38:37):
the carrot Keith Carradine. Butyeah, Henry found out was Jane
Fonda and Peter Fonda's dad,whatever.
Now we need them. Maybe theyalso have a famous uncle who
knows.
Yeah, where were we? Sorry,beauty, the
beauty that reaganism Oh, Gecko.
Well, Ialso I mean, there's different
meanings of materialism. There'slike that version of it that

(38:59):
where you use it as an insult,like you're so materialistic,
like, all you care about isstuff. Although I wonder if
people even say that anymore. Idon't know if they do say that
anymore. Because it's already ifthey say what if they say,
materially cares about stuff,like talks about people as
Oh, yes. materialisticallyshallow? Oh, yes. I mean, there

(39:23):
is a Hello. Have you read thelife changing art of tidying up?
I mean, the whole thing aboutdecluttering culture is that we
need to issue Mona stuff we needto live some we need to stop
indulging. We just don't call itmaterialism so much. But that

(39:44):
Yeah, what it is.
So I say yes, well, then that'smore of like the assumption that
we all are materialistic and weneed to like,
well aren't we are just a bunchof crows that pick up shiny
things at Target. Bring themback to the nest.
I definitely am. I did hear him.
Did you ever follow any of that?
Marie Kondo advice?

(40:06):
Yeah. I bought that book. Well,before I think her book came out
like two years before theNetflix show,
you were an early adopter oftidiness.
I am like I aspire to it. And Isubscribed to a whole lot of
like Instagram channels abouttidiness. Yeah, but I myself am

(40:30):
terrible at it. Yeah. I had tofight against the clutter. The
natural clutter that comes withmice, myself.
Did you try it? Yeah, Itried to do my closet. And I got
so I started pulling everything.
You remember that? The the ideaof it is take everything out of
your closet.
I put it. I've done that. Uhhuh. And I got about

(40:52):
halfway done. And I took a nap.
And I was like, I can't do thisanymore. And then I did you take
your nap atop the pile?
I laid on the pile of clothinglike a Princess and the Pea. And
I just draped my body over anice knuckle up. Yeah, it didn't
go. Well. I failed.
Yeah. And then you just put itup again. Did you put it up?
Just back in a pile?

(41:13):
I did. Okay. shove it into mycloset on the floor. Yeah. And
then do you know what I did? Igoogled Professional Organizer.
And then I looked them up. And Ithink I looked at the price
sheet and I was like, I'm justgonna be cluttery. Yeah,
cluttered. Home is a sign ofwisdom and beauty.

(41:37):
Yeah. So I have no, do I I'mlooking deep in my soul. I don't
think I have any moralassociation or judgment
associated with clean or dirtypeople. I really don't think I
do. Like I feel like I feel likeI understand both like very
well. And I think my own naturalinclination is to be very messy.

(41:59):
Also, however, I did follow herinstructions for drawers and
closet and did haul out like agood Oh, no, I'm gonna say five
or eight garbage like hugegarbage bags of clothes.
Wow. Good for you. Yeah, Iwasn't an early adopter, though.
I was just a trend follower. AndI only did it after the show
camesort of at the beginning of the
pandemic.
Oh, no, I think it was like lastyear, maybe last summer. I can't

(42:22):
remember when her show firstcame out. At the beginning of
the pandemic, it where I live,people were saying stop, like
goodwill, and all these placeswill no longer accept because
everybody was cleaning up,everybody.
were overwhelmed.
Yeah, totally. And to this day,I still fold my clothes
according to her instructions,because it's just a little
easier to see in the drawer. Youknow, the way when they're

(42:45):
rolled up like that? Yeah.
rolled up style. Yep. Yeah, it'sovertime that's really devolved.
Because they used to be like,very adorable little rose, like
in a little pastry shop orsomething like that. And now
it's more like, I don't know,guinea pigs in a cage or
something like that. Yes, yes.

(43:05):
But I think that's differentthan materialism. Because I
think that the thing thatMadonna is talking about is like
wanting luxury goods, likematerialistic and that way. Yes.
And I don't feel like peoplecriticize people for that
anymore. Like they all Everyoneknows that we all just like want
it and admire the people whohave it. And that's it.

(43:26):
I don't know, I feel like Ifollow my share of like, very
critical blogs that are alsovery critical of like,
Kardashian culture and this likethe way that they will promote a
whatever a face cream orsomething and then everybody has
to have it. I mean, I also thinkit's an interesting thing to
talk about with influencerculture. Uh huh. Oh, my because

(43:49):
that really normalizes the wholematerialism. Like even during
the pandemic, I was what Ifollow a lot of fashion
influencers, frankly, just forlike outfit ideas, because I'm
sure how to wear every day.
I know. They were reallyhampered by Catholic school in
that regard. I just want tothrow out there. I've continued,
right? Yeah. Where is gray andnavy blue and white every single

(44:09):
day some combo of it?
I wear more than my share ofplaid because I'm just used to
it.
Yeah, exactly.
I don't know any better.
I still am drawn to white Oxfordbutton downs. Yes. Uh, I don't
know what I'm doing. So I followthese. mostly women. I during
the pandemic, I was like, youguys are still shopping.

(44:30):
What are you dressing up for? Idon't Yeah.
Why are we still doing this? Itfeels like such artifice. Yeah.
I mean, I mean, it made themhappy. And also a lot of them
that's their income. So they hadto keep keep going. Right? Yeah,
they just switched to athleisureand comfy
so they probably got that stufffor free. Because they're
influencers though like becausethe company probably makes way

(44:51):
more money giving them $100 pairof leggings
then yeah, no works on affiliatelinks and things like that.
Anyway, I really took you offtopic. But I do think we're as
or more materialistic now, but Idon't think that we're as
critical of it as we used to bein the 80s. Yeah, I think is the
thesis of this discussion thatyou've brought precisely so.

(45:14):
And that's probably just becausewe're so used to it now. Right?
Yeah, I feel like I've evenheard some crazy statistics
about how many more like poundsof clothing people buy now than
they used to. And especiallybecause like fast fashion has
contributed to that quite a lot.
And so I mean, I think part ofthat is maybe materialism. I
mean, maybe it's like thedegraded souls of the consumers.

(45:37):
But it could also be thatclothing is like much crappier
and falls apart much sooner. Andthere now and also, like, how
much more money there is to bemade, not just like,
manufacturing and selling moreitems, but like, all the
accoutrements of like tellingpeople that they need, you know,
though, the blogs and themagazines, I don't know if

(45:59):
people actually read magazinesanymore.
I do. They read digital content.
Yeah. Right. Like all the media,that is like telling you that
you need to buy more things. Andthen your clothes also are
falling apart. And so that's whythey do. Yeah, but even still,
like this is the, the like,luxury, good. I feel like in

(46:23):
Gosh, what year would it havebeen maybe like the early 2000s
or something, there was a littlelike a time when people were,
maybe it was just my age, likethere was a certain time in my
life where I was like, I shouldreally be owning and Irma's
scarf. It is time in my lifethat I need that I that my

(46:43):
clothing items will beinvestments.
And where'd you get that idea?
I don't know.
That's what I'm wondering. AndI'm wondering what year it was.
And maybe it was even only likea passing fancy for like a month
and I forgot about it. Andbecause I never got one? No, you
didn't? Oh, no. But I actually Ihave a friend who has one I
remember. And I saw her, youknow, within the past, like five

(47:04):
years or something. And I waslike, Oh my god, that scarf
looks so good. And she was like,it's our mess. And she had had
it for like maybe her mom andhad it. I mean, it was like a
very, very, like, understandableway. And I will tell you it
fucking worked and obviouslywould have worked, you know, 20
years prior and will work 50years hence, and so forth. And

(47:25):
so was clear like that aninvestment could be sort of like
that. But in any case, I feellike there was an era and once
again, maybe it was just mewhere all of a sudden we were
like expected to own whether itwas in our means or not like the
idea of like luxury goods, thenAirmen
a possibility for your basicperson. Yeah,

(47:47):
totally included. And that wouldbe like a low level thing. I
mean, obviously, like a fullypet tech watch, or something
would be like out of thequestion. But there's like
little things, you know that youcould Oh, and like cosmetics,
really capitalize on this?
Yeah, I will tell you, Iremember being in a marketing
meeting, one of the bigcompanies I worked with, and

(48:09):
this would have been in late90s, early 2000s. And our
advertising agency waspresenting a bunch of research
consumer research to us. Andthey were talking about the
consumers need for smallindulgences. And so I think
that's around the time that thishappened. You know, and possibly

(48:30):
that's because, you know, again,everything's a reaction. So it
was maybe a reaction to the late90s. And then people felt like
they deserved small indulgences.
And this is part of the reasonthat explains the success of
Victoria's Secret. Yeah, I sawlots of ad advertising messages
talking about you deserve it.

(48:51):
Who was you deserve a breaktoday? Was that McDonald's? That
was McDonald's. So I thinkthat's right. And, like this
idea of entitlement. Yeah, I'mhappy still about this today.
Like, I've had a really hardday. I'm gonna get go to
Starbucks and get a pass by soyeah, because I deserve it. And
I have to have something smallto balance out the misery of my

(49:14):
daily existence.
Oh, yeah.
Whether it's fancy face cream,yeah. Or a little a $6. latte.
Yeah, extra whip or totally, youknow, like a peloton bike.
Right? Or, like, thereare things that are good for you
and things that aren't good foryou. But they're all just
entitlements and indulgences andwell, they sell the thing by

(49:37):
telling you you deserve it. Hmm.
You know, that entitlement isspot on, I think because I think
that's been like developingbasically ever since like the
dawn of industrialization, youknow, and I even heard a person
I think it was just like a TEDtalk or something on NPR but she

(49:57):
studied love and romance and Shemight be a psychologist of some
sort. But she talked about how,in previous times, marriage and
children were not things thatyou like, chose or wanted, like
choosing and wanting, were notpart of the vocabulary of how
you thought about that, youknow, right. They were life
necessity, economic and lifenecessities and you had many

(50:20):
children, because a lot of themdied and you needed to work the
land, and you got married,because you would starve to
death if you didn't. But thenstarting around the 19th
century, people started toconsider relationships as
something that you actually gotto choose among suitors, for
example, and like when thingslike middle class got invented,

(50:40):
people started to and this isaround the time that like, for
example, there were politicalrevolutions, which had to do
with political choice also. Sothis was like an era of choice
kind of dawning on people,right. And so then you got to
choose and then also, divorcecame into the picture, too,
because then people, which inmany cases, like allowed women
to stay alive, for example, orwhatever, but then even even

(51:04):
further down the road. Now, fromher perspective, from the
speaker's perspective, peopletalk about marriage, like people
get divorced, according to hersometimes, just because they
don't feel totally fulfilled bytheir partners, they're still
good friends, and they stilleven love each other. But, you
know, for them, marriage has toreally be this, like, totally

(51:27):
fulfilling thing. And her pointwas also that marriage now is
has to, like, fill the functionthat like an army of people used
to it, you know, like, used tohave a village and your extended
family. You know, it was likechildcare and social interaction
and sexual fulfillment and allthese things, that, that were
like a lot of people and nowit's all on your spouse. And you

(51:51):
have to just feel like thispersonal fulfillment from it.
And so it seemed very true. Butit also seems like that's
everything. Same with work. Likeyou have to feel fulfilled by
your job. You know, I mean, eversince, like Marx talks about
being alienated from it, and youhave to feel fulfilled by your
religion. That's why there's sofew, you know, people are like,

(52:11):
leaving religions and, like,whatever. Yeah, I never thought
you could choose a religion.
Right?
That's a great point.
And now you do like you are youchoose not to be it because you
like disagree with its stance onwhatever, because you don't feel
like but that's regulatory,right? The idea that everything
is a choice, you have no good, Iguess there's, like a lack of

(52:35):
responsibility in this, but youdon't have to do anything you
don't want to do. Mm hmm. Whichis the truth, even though you
should you don't have to stayand raise your children. Mm hmm.
You don't have to turn off thatepisode. Right? It goes to the
next one.
Right?
You don't have to raise it.
Right.

(52:55):
Yeah. You don't have to do anyof these things. Yeah, you don't
have to earn your own bread. Youcould just let somebody else
frickin pay for it.
But you don't have that left,like a refugee.
Thank somebody. But that's, Iguess where morality comes into
it?
Huh?

(53:16):
You don't have to do anything.
But there are some things thatyou should because they're a
moral imperative.
Yeah. Or because maybe so well,that actually brings me to the
other aspect of materialism thatI wanted to talk about. Because
that's like a philosophyactually.
materialism. Yeah, Imean, and a philosopher would
know a lot more about it than Ido. But, and it also has like, a

(53:38):
much longer and less Westernhistory that I'm aware of,
because I know, there was a lotof Asian philosophers that
talked about this, but you know,starting around, say, I mean,
the 19th century or so like theidea being that there's and also
maybe as a response to Cartesiandualism, because like Descartes

(53:59):
would have said, you know,there's the spiritual realm and
the material realm, basically,this group of philosophers,
including Marx said that there'sactually only only material
right and, and, and that's takena lot of different twists and

(54:19):
turns over the century and ahalf or so, you know, where
like, some people have taken up,taken that idea and said that
taken a very hardcore sort ofscientistic approach to it that
everything's like measured withscience. Some people are more
interested in like, how, becausethey'll say, Okay, fair enough,
if everything is only material,but then how do we get things

(54:41):
like ideologies like patriotism,like what is the material basis
of patriotism example right? Andsome people are interested in
how in treating things that seemlike different kinds of things,
patriotism and Like grouppsychology and evolutionary

(55:01):
biology and like seeing howthose can be like explained
materially sort of. So there'slots of different ways of
approaching this. And there'seven like a strain of thought
now in the 21st century calledNew materialism that
philosophers, some philosophers,or theorists espouse. And so,
what the heck was it that yousaid that made me think of that?

(55:24):
Because you were saying,well, I introduced the idea of
you don't have to do anything.
It's all amoral and moral imperative, the
moral imperative, right, thanks.
Because then, you know, somemight say, well, that moral
imperative comes from this likerelationship of institutions
that ended up creating a waythat you think of yourself as a

(55:46):
moral being, or that create thekind of like, behavioral or
economic pressure that makes youthink of morality in a way that
you perceive as like benefitingyourself within a social realm
or something like that.
Anyways, me like I'm such a goodmother because I didn't leave my
children I deserve or adulationlatte,

(56:12):
yes, but that you're but thatthat moral achievement is the
result of like, careful, longstanding ways that for example,
like, maternity is configured inthe place where you live, and
what kind of like medical andlegal institutions.

(56:33):
Yes.
We're all rewarded with Mother'sDay, like our culture a made up
holiday to celebrate. Yeah, I'malso living up to our duty or
whatever,yes. But I like to think of
Madonna song as being like, youknow, Marxist in that way yet.
Like, yes, I'm a bit I'm aMaterial Girl, because I am the

(56:55):
result of these like, longstanding holidays and
institutions and bankingpractices or whatever that
have right made me and she doessay in a material world,
precisely like a product. Yeah.
of vironment. Yeah, that's areally interesting read on it.
Yes. And she fucking is,you know, like, that's, I mean,

(57:19):
it was like she had Maryland,she had like this palette to
work with, you know, thefemininity of Marilyn Monroe,
you know, the moralityassociated with judging women
for wanting luxury goods. Mmhmm. And their economic
inability to acquire them, youknow, without a man to raise her

(57:39):
interest. Exactly. Yeah. Andthen so she had this sort of
palette to draw from and thenshe obviously contributed to it
too, because of course, like,women wouldn't be womanhood
would not be what it is todaywithout
Madonna. Let's, let's just facefacts. You mean the singer?

(58:00):
Right? Yes. Yep. Okay.
And this thing, I would not bewho she was without the mother
of Jesus.
She'd probably be named like,Susan or
Christina. Yeah, exactly. No,Lisa. Hi, Jennifer. Jennifer.

(58:21):
Yep.
Yeah, so anyway, um, yeah, Imean, I feel like Madonna
totally shaped like what itmeant to be like a female in the
US. For me, completely.
I mean, she was so empowered.
But that song was so empowering.
Just by calling out and I getthat it was all tongue in cheek.

(58:42):
Like, I think that part of itwas delivered with a bit of
like, I can't be tongue in cheekstyle. I mean, especially with
all the little funny lyrics,like if they can't raise my
interest, then I'll have to letthem be, which is such a great
lyric. But I remember feelinglike oh my gosh, she's totally
copping to the fact that shewants stuff. Yes. Feels
regulatory. Yes. Right. Oh, no.
Yeah. Yeah, it works a lot ofdifferent ways.

(59:07):
So that's my song. I have onemore little tiny piece of trivia
to tell you about it, but it'skind of like once removed,
because the trivia is actuallyabout Gentlemen Prefer Blondes
the movie.
Oh, yeah. Uh huh.
Huh, which obviously was thebasis for the video, and that is
that there is a novel. Thatmovie was based on a musical

(59:29):
which was based on a silentfilm, which was based on a novel
that was written in 1925 byAnita loos, who herself was a
early I don't know if you wouldsay feminist but definitely like
a woman with early success inHollywood as a writer. So she
wrote this novel calledGentlemen Prefer Blondes she

(59:50):
herself was a brunette and itwas legend has it was after she
had been on a train had a lot oftrouble retrieving her luggage
from the overhead compartmentlike struggling and struggling.
And no one helped her but thenas soon as a blonde woman like
dropped a book or newspaper shewas reading like five men like
rush to like pick it up for her.
Yeah. And, and Anita loos rolledher eyes at this that inspired

(01:00:11):
this novel and which was like a1925. Can you imagine what the
United States was like then? Iwould say fucking fun as hell,
you know what I mean? Likelittle did they know what was
coming?
Oh, you think? I guess becauseit was before the depression and
people won and afterthe First World War and after
the flu pandemic, and so it waslike fun fun fun.

(01:00:33):
Women were cutting their hairand totally I picture Anyway,
um, I mean, for a lot of people,obviously not for everyone. I
mean, maybe if you were like inChicago, if you were on a farm
in Nebraska might not have beenso fun.
perhaps less so. Um, so anyway,since then, you'd probably have
your knitting. Yeah, but alsoand also like, everyone has

(01:00:55):
their ups and downs. Don't getme wrong. 1927 she wrote a
sequel to the book calledgentlemen, Mary brunettes.
Oh, yes.
And then several decades afterthat, they she was asked, Will

(01:01:16):
she write yet another a thirdbook in the series? And she's
like, very like, I guess youwould say facetiously joked.
Yes. And the third one will becalled Gentlemen Prefer
gentlemen.
And the questioner was like,This interview is over. Oh, man,

(01:01:39):
she's funny. We need to readthat. I know.
I'm it's just occurring to methat Marilyn Monroe was in that
movie and she was a brunette.
Like, Norma Jean is a brunette.
Oh, right. Yes. She died. Yeah,bottle blonde, right. Yeah,
right. Toto is Madonna.
Absolutely.

(01:02:00):
You know, Jane Russell, what youwould say was her co star but
Jane Russell got paid a lot morethan Marilyn Monroe did because
Marilyn Monroe was still on acontract. And Jane Russell was
not so and Jen Russell was abrunette and there's a little
part of the movie where shewears a blonde wig to like
imitate Lorelei, the MarilynMonroe character,

(01:02:21):
but yeah, how friggindumb about like blonde versus
brunette. And throughout the20th century, the
white were trying to divide usladies and we need to say no to
that.
So, Tom,you know, I was watching we
watched birds of prey, theHarley Quinn movie. Oh, yeah.
And, and there is a piece of itthat Miko Roby is that the

(01:02:45):
Margot Robbie's in it and thereis a little piece of it that
evokes that she's dressed uplike Marilyn and Madonna, and
they're doing a little send upof that famous diamonds are a
girl's best friend.
Oh,is that okay, good. Um, I've I
have found it to be veryentertaining. Yes. You know,
it's violent. But she's freakingamazing. And everything. She's

(01:03:12):
so great. And she will always beso close to my heart for her.
Tonya Harding.
Oh, totally. I mean, give thatgirl all the awards, like the
performance of the decade forme, she's so good in that.
Yeah.
So let's move on to the verdict.

(01:03:32):
Well, and John's to theplaintiffs and the defendants
about judge Walker's decisionright after these messages.
So your verdict would be thumbsup on this song?
Well,here's the thing. There's like
three notes in that song, youknow, musically, it's not like,
it's not the most virtuosoperformance for any of the

(01:03:54):
people involved. And so I it'scatchy as hell, and I'm gonna
say like, massive thumbs up forthe whole like,
conceptualization from the like,writing of the song through the
video. And like, all the waysthat it made Madonna into like,
the late 20th centuries,Madonna, you know, but um, this

(01:04:15):
listening to the song is notlike the most pleasant
experience in the universe.
Yeah. What do you what do youthink of her? Oh, yeah.
And like the robotic menchanting the thing in a material
world. Like it's just not sure.
Mm hmm. Not her best work, butvery tasty. Right? Like, it's

(01:04:40):
almost Tuesday guys see?
Like, you didn't just put yourfinger on the pulse. Yes, stuck
a needle right in that vein.
Absolutely. Like if you if 1000years from now they're running
video clips of the 20th centurythat one will be in the real
for 100% Sure, yeah and for verygood reason and for reasons, not

(01:05:04):
just accidental, but you know,like intentional and produced so
but like I said, I can't I can'tget I can't get behind listening
to the song. Hmm Well, Ican I think it's a thumbs up for
me just mostly. I'm possiblyjust because of my it felt like
a personal revelation to me notbecause I really stand behind
its message and just that I feltlike it was so bold of her as a

(01:05:26):
woman to be declaring. Socandidly I guess like how
capricious she was or somethingI think that that's so fair
enough oldWhat about math tapes? That
pink satin is so prettyit's so pretty it's bad the
video I can watch the video morethan once the video I feel like

(01:05:49):
makes the song a little bitreally says
more about the productiondesigner of Gentlemen Prefer
Blondes raise about Madonna Iguess. Perhaps mixtape time.
mixtape time.
Oh, except by the way Nigel justcame in with the information
about the caribbeansOh, let me know. What is the
deal with sip Have a seat. I'llget you one I I'll let you know.

(01:06:12):
Oh, we need something else.
I'm half brothers. Oh, David arehalf brothers. And Keith
Carradine lives yet also. Okay.
I'm gonna say he's a realhandsome guy. I forgot he was

(01:06:34):
Wild Bill Hickok and Deadwood,which is one of my favorite TV
Shows of All Time.
Oh, wow.
I did not know that.
Yeah.
Anyway, having brothers thereyou go long enough to come up
with that minimaland for me, how long does it
take to Google something? Okay,so mixtape, so my my theme would
be like, tails of capriciousfemales.

(01:06:58):
Oh, nice. That's a great thing.
Um, and I think the one thatcomes to my mind is everything
she wants by Wham. Hmm. Which islike the man on it. Maybe? Yeah.
After a bit of time. And yeah,it's grown old for him.
Yeah.
Maybe along the lines of like,manic pixie dream girl. I would

(01:07:19):
put raspberry Moray on there.
Also notice Hey, where there isMadonna. You have to have
prints? Because you know,buddy's? Uh huh. I thought of
all she wants to do is dance byDon Henley, which is also from
the man's point of view aboutwhat a woman wants nice. I had a
very hard time thinking of songsfrom the woman's perspective

(01:07:43):
declaring things that they want.
The closest one that I can thinkof to this song is another one
that Madonna herself recorded.
And it's a Christmas song. And Ifreakin hate it. But I feel like
I'm going to mention it here andthat I am Santa baby.
Oh boy.
I remember that while I was onthe Tracy or

(01:08:08):
I thought it was on a veryspecial Christmas.
Oh, yes. Yes. The one which wasa charity benefit.
Mm hmm.
Yep. Yes, it is. You're right.
And it's the cover of the Earthkit song. Hmm she's saying like,
I want a deed and I want somefurs and I want some diamonds
and her voice and that isunbearable.

(01:08:30):
Well she's doing it like as thatcharacter that Dick Tracy
character Yeah, right from thatmovie which is fully
forgettable.
Oh, except for the song morefrom Dick Tracy. I remember
that. Got my diamonds. Got myYeah, it's got a guy. Joe I'm so

(01:08:52):
happy with what I got. One moreon the dances great that you're
doing right now listeners youcan't see it. It's akin to
Kermit the Frog. I would sayyes. That is a very
Kermit the Frog dance that youdo. Yes. What would you put on

(01:09:13):
the mixtape? Well,my theme would probably be like
cynical not cynical. You know orlike songs that were like
calling out yes ism. So to methe number one song in that
realm as everybody knows byLeonard Cohen although I also
quite like the concrete blondecover of that that they recorded
I believe for Pump up the volumeto remember that

(01:09:33):
Yeah, we talked about that onprevious episode. I don't
remember which one it was but wedid. Yeah. Because after you
mentioned it I went and watchedboth of them.
Both of what Pump up the volumeand what
the Leonard Cohen version andthe CO Blondie Yes. Oh,
I thought you might you watchthe movie Pump up the volume.
No, I bet it was the Mexicanradio episode. Yes. That was

(01:09:55):
about a rogue DJ.
Yes, that's exactly where itwas. Yep. Okay. Anyway,
so I have a Everybody knowsmaybe what's the what's the
title of it is at fame 90 theGeorge might I because I also
have a George Michael, aboutwhen you shake your ass they
notice fast some mistakes werebuilt to last freedom 90 Yes.
Yeah, still a fantastic song Iwould say yes. Maybe born in the

(01:10:17):
USA. I mean just like Prince andMadonna go together so does
Bruce you know. Yeah and thatand that's a song that is, you
know real sort of disillusioned.
Yep. Those are the three that Icame up with.
I also had the non aromas Venuson my list.
Oh, yeah.
I don't know why, I guess justthis idea of like a woman as a,

(01:10:38):
like a powerful image of a womantalking about what she wants.
But Nana Rama was now they sayit in England. Uh huh. And
we Cleveland we called themBananarama. But in England
there, but no, no Roma,right where we eat tomatoes.
Tomato water. So what? I'm justcoming up with a bad name.

(01:11:04):
Oh, tomato. The tomato versionof banana Ram. Oh,
tomato. Tomato. Water. Tomato.
Yeah.
Didn't somebody else do Venus?
Was it Kim?
The rail version?
Did she? Wait, who?
Nigel. Nigel Nigel got wake up.
Can you just Google these thingswhen they come out of our mouth?

(01:11:29):
anona Rama English pop group.
They're a big deal in England.
Good I believe not such a bigdeal here. Oh, shocking. Blue.
Thank you, Nigel. Shocking.
Blue. Recorded Venus in 1969.
Oh, okay.
I think I'm thinking ofsomething else. Kim wild. Does

(01:11:51):
that name meananything to you? Yeah, she
things were the kids in America.
And French kissing in the USA.
Huh?
You keep me hanging on? Yep,that's the word that she did
that I was thinking of becausethat but that's the supreme so I
think so.
delete, delete. Nope, not gonnado it.
Okay, well, that was that's mysong. And that is that episode

(01:12:12):
and I think we've freakin killedit. Maj.
I love you. I know that you'vecome to symbolize the access of
an entire decade impossiblycentury but I love you and thank
you for giving me this song. Oh,God. Okay, I'm glad we closed
with I just wanted to to theMadonna put that right out there
to her. Yes. The prayer toMadonna. Yeah, you got to do it.

(01:12:34):
You got to put that rosaryaround your neck.
Listen, that's like when hey,yeah, came out. And Polaroid was
like you're not supposed toshake Polaroid pictures? Like I
feel like in Catholic schoolbecause you're aren't apparently
because it makes everybody doesit? I know. Because they're like
shake it like a Polaroidpicture. Polaroid was like,

(01:12:54):
Listen, people we never meantfor you to shake it. And I feel
like when Madonna came out, likeall the nuts like the nuns, it
was the same thing. Like, guesswhat? It looks like a necklace,
but it's not a necklace. You'renot supposed to put the rosary
around your neck. Like we alldid an opportunity to explain
that.
Thanks for teaching me how touse this. Sister Mary Agnes. I

(01:13:18):
wasn't sure. Exactly. Well, thatwas so much fun.
Mm hmm. Thanks for taking methrough it.
I'll see you next time.
Yeah, get back to your knitting.
Yeah, we'll do.
Well, we did it.
We burned another song and wehope you enjoyed it and danced
around the fire. If you want tosuggest a song or join our

(01:13:39):
conversation. Find us onInstagram. We're at sick burns
pod on twitter at at sick 80s oron Facebook as sick burns. And
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the [e-mail] and ifyou haven't yet gotten the

(01:14:00):
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for now.