June 26, 2025 • 34 mins
When BWBR's design team talks about creating spaces that "welcome and work for everyone," it isn’t PR speak or a feel-good talking point. They’re addressing one of architecture's most complex challenges. Truly equitable design requires intention and thoughtful consideration of elements that go far beyond code compliance.
Design Leader Lisa Miller, Interior Designer Katie Reed, and Senior Architectural Designer Josh Simma recently sat down to untangle the often-confused concepts of accessible, universal, and inclusive design. Their conversation reveals why these distinctions matter and how they're reshaping the way spaces get built.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Gerstner (00:00):
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast
discussing all aspects of designwith knowledge leaders from
every part of the industry.
Hello and welcome to Side ofDesign from BWBR.
I'm your host, matt Gerstner.
On every project we design, thegoal is to create a space that
welcomes and works for everyone,which sounds simple but
actually opens up a huge arrayof considerations that must be
(00:22):
taken into account.
On today's episode, we'll beexploring accessible, universal
and inclusive design, includingtheir similarities and
differences, real-worldapplications and the role codes
and regulations play.
Joining us today from BWBR isdesign leader Lisa Miller,
interior designer Katie Reed andsenior architectural designer
(00:43):
Josh Sima.
Welcome everyone, thanks forbeing here, we're here.
Great to be here, matt, so let'sjust start with some quick
definitions.
What differentiates accessibledesign from universal design
from inclusive design?
Lisa Miller (00:57):
That's a great question, matt, and I want to
start out by saying that this issomething that I feel like.
People use these termsinterchangeably and while they
might have similarities, theyare distinctly different, and
it's really important when we'rethinking about spaces to know
the differences and know reallywhat we're trying to have as the
end goal.
So, accessible design and I'llread a couple of definitions
(01:20):
here and see what we can come upwith but accessible design is
really designed thatspecifically addresses the needs
of people with disabilities,and the goal of that is to
ensure that the people withimpairments like visual,
auditory, motor, cognitive, etc.
Can access and use the spacesthat we design.
So, specifically, that's whataccessibility design is.
Universal design is a designthat aims to be usable by all
(01:43):
people to the greatest extentpossible, without the needs for
adaptation or specialized design.
Think of universal design as aone size fits all.
That's really that intent ofuniversal design.
And then, inclusive design isdesign that recognizes diversity
and difference andintentionally includes as many
people as possible, especiallythose who are often excluded,
(02:05):
and the goal of that is toreally create experiences that
are usable and have a wide rangeof different people that can be
in it, and we think about thosedifferent perspectives within
the space.
So we like to describe this oneas making sure there's variety
so that each person could find aspace within you know the
environments we build that suitsthem and that could work for
(02:26):
them.
We like to think of them as anested circle diagram.
So your accessible design isyour baseline, like that's your
codes and regulations.
That's making sure people canaccess the space.
And then universal design maybecaptures a little bit more
people.
But we know one size doesn'tfit all, like children don't
(02:46):
necessarily have the same rangesas adults.
So you cannot design one spaceto fit children and adults like
in one design.
So you have to think of how youcan make spaces and that's
where we get to inclusive designthat could fit both Um and so.
That's kind of inclusive designwill capture more and more
people by providing more varietyto do so.
Katie Reed (03:08):
I'm going to take this one step further, and so
Lisa talks about inclusivedesign and this diversity that
we need to accommodate and bemindful of.
So if you're thinking about aspace and all the people that
interact with the space andtheir environment, there's an
incredible range of experiencebehind each person that's
(03:29):
encountering that space.
So if we think about apopulation, we want to be
mindful of this diversity and wecan kind of break it down into
different buckets.
So on surface level, we mightfirst think of this main bucket
of diversity.
On surface level, we mightfirst think of this main bucket
of diversity.
We might define it as age, race, gender, identity, those things
(03:50):
that you first think of withdiversity.
For example, I would say I'm afemale, I'm 28 years old, I'm
looking at this space from thatlens.
Okay, Then we can take it andbreak it down even further.
That once.
Then we can take it and breakit down even further.
We have further buckets that wecan look at when defining
someone's experience in thisspace.
(04:11):
So this next grouping we canlook at education, income,
marital status, their location.
So I've always been based herein St Paul.
That has an effect on where Igo, who I see, how I interact in
a space.
And then we can take it anotherstep and look at workplace
(04:33):
where are we working?
Where are we working with?
What's our job level?
And then even one step furtherhow are we performing?
What's our personality type?
Again, my example I'm anintrovert, so I'm going to look.
I'm not in this space at home,I'm going to look for somewhere
that I can really focus in andit's going to be quieter, maybe
(04:57):
not coming out and talking asmuch.
Yeah, so those are alldimensions that we need to
really consider.
Lisa Miller (05:05):
When we just one category and say this is who you
(05:26):
are and we're going to give youone solution for that.
We have to understand thatpeople are so dimensional and
that Katie and I are not thesame.
Josh and I are not the same.
We never will be, and if wedon't design and think about
trying to just reach as manypeople as possible, we are going
to leave people out and that isnot our intention and we never
(05:47):
want to do that.
So we want to just try to getas many spaces and abilities and
things within spaces that wedesign to help people out and
make sure that our spaces thatwe design helps them be
successful.
Josh Simma (05:58):
I think layering on top of that as well again is the
idea of the accessibility sideof things and from a code
perspective.
You know we've got a longhistory of civil rights and our
civil rights legislation, as youknow, pulled in the
accessibility code to get dealwith those folks that have
disabilities and may haveproblems with both vision and
(06:19):
other mobile impairments.
Stack that on top of thebuilding codes and we have quite
a set of tools to use.
Matt Gerstner (06:27):
I mean, it sounds like there's a lot, of, a lot
of things at our disposal thatwe can use, we can consider,
when we're thinking about allthree different levels of this.
That's a that's wonderful Goodto hear.
Lisa Miller (06:39):
And I think one of the things, too, is all we, we
strive so much to do this, butwe do have to know that there
are things that sometimes rightpeople fall out of that circle
and we have to just continuallywork at gathering resources, at
talking about design, learningfrom people's lived experiences,
to try to include and captureMaybe it's not the right word,
(07:03):
but include as many people intothat bubble of what you know.
Design is Because there aresome people that might be
outliers.
How do we reach them and how dowe make sure that they feel
comfortable?
And that's why design evolvesconstantly.
Matt Gerstner (07:17):
So yeah, I mean, design's never really done, is
it?
No, no.
But we have deadlines.
No, no, but we have deadlines.
So what sort of designconsiderations and or outcomes
might you see within?
Each of these?
Is like one better or is itmore about the context and the
project goals, you know?
Do you have any like specificproject examples, even?
Lisa Miller (07:39):
Yeah, I'll take that one to start and then you
can jump in.
We do think one is better.
I think inclusive design isalways going to be better.
The more people you can include, the better the space, the
better the outcomes for everyoneusing them.
Again, it's just kind ofthinking about how accessibility
and accessible design is yourbaseline.
That's what you should be doing, because we have all those
codes, we have ADA, and then howdo you just find more people?
(08:02):
One example of this that welike to think about is work
surface.
So your desk height Accessibledesign says that this has to be
in order for someone to kind ofwork there.
Josh, tell me what it is for awork surface height for an ADA
wheelchair.
Josh Simma (08:20):
Well, actually that's an interesting kind of
segue a little bit too is justthe idea that from a work
perspective there'sopportunities again to have a
work surface that isn'taccessible, and then that kind
of falls under kind of Title Iof the ADA or other sets of
codes to make reasonableaccommodations from an employer
standpoint, and then we mightleave that workspace so that the
(08:44):
task we're doing might notrequire that counter to be at 2
foot 10, maybe it's up at 3 foot4.
Maybe I'm again I'm standing inthe lab and I'm doing work in a
pharmacy setting, but when mywork is done maybe I go to the
break room and in the break roomI'm not working, I'm not doing
a task that's related to my job,and then I'm going to encounter
(09:06):
a work surface honestly not awork surface, but I'm going to
kind of encounter a counter thatneeds to be at an accessible
height based on a bunch ofstandards, and again that would
be like that two foot ten at amaximum height in that setting.
Lisa Miller (09:18):
So yeah, so accessible would be.
You have to have that specificheight to be accessible.
Right Universal would say everycounter that you have
everywhere is the same height.
Matt Gerstner (09:27):
Ok, be accessible right universal would say every
counter that you haveeverywhere is the same height.
Lisa Miller (09:29):
Okay, so not necessarily good not necessarily
good, because sometimes, likejosh was mentioning, you might
need a standing height, right,but if you have it all at the
same height, it's that.
It's that idea.
Universal is one size fits all,but it doesn't necessarily fit
all because you might be doingdifferent tasks.
So we have to think of that.
Inclusive design would beproviding different options of
heights but, even better,providing a height adjustable
(09:50):
work surface at that space soyou can adjust it per your needs
.
I think that's super importantto kind of think about that
evolution of what it could looklike.
Katie Reed (10:00):
So Lisa's not saying that every surface for
inclusive design needs to bethis height adjustable surface.
Maybe our workstation thatwe're at for most of our day is
that height adjustable.
But then we're thinking aboutother furniture settings.
Are we using laptop tablesthroughout the day If we're
having a casual meeting?
Coffee tables, other bar heightor standing height options, so
(10:24):
that throughout your space youhave a breadth of different
options for different types ofworkers and different abilities
and different conversations thatyou're having or interactions
that you're having.
So just thinking about thoselayers like Lisa describes them,
and thinking about thecountertop example, I think can
(10:47):
lend a hand into how we'rethinking about the rest of the
space and what we're designing.
Lisa Miller (10:52):
And we know the height adjustability is more
expensive.
So if you are trying tobalancing that, you could pick
specific areas that would havethe biggest impact.
You know, maybe you pick aconference room.
You could do a heightadjustable table at a conference
room.
It's more expensive.
But maybe you do one of thosebecause you want to accommodate
some more people versus none.
They make coffee tables thatare height adjustable.
(11:13):
They make everything heightadjustable.
Matt Gerstner (11:15):
now, I wouldn't doubt it.
Lisa Miller (11:16):
But we know that that can be expensive.
So just picking areas that canmake the most impact on the
individuals in the space isreally important, I think, to
consider in design.
Yeah.
Matt Gerstner (11:28):
Do you have any real-world examples of this?
Lisa Miller (11:30):
Well, katie and I worked on this project and this
is maybe not so much aboutcountertops, but Katie and I
worked on this project.
It was a workplace project,actually locally here in St Paul
, and they did a phase one ofthis project and they wanted to
do phase two.
So one thing that they wantedto consider when they wanted to
(11:53):
do phase two is they wereworking with a lot of clients
coming in and they wanted theirspace to be a showcase for what
their clients would then do fortheir clients if that makes
sense and to kind of lead theway to say these are the things
you need to think about whenyou're doing inclusive design.
So they actually had a lot ofmeetings with Katie and I to
talk about what they wanted andwhat things that they wanted to
consider.
So they actually brought someideas to the table for us and we
kind of had conversations.
One thing that we specificallydid on phase one was we actually
(12:16):
had carpet throughout theiroffice space and the design of
the carpet in phase one it had adifference of pile height.
So pile height is the thicknessof the carpet tile and whether
this does meet code.
You can have a slightdifference of carpet pile height
, but we did notice thatsometimes if you have a
(12:36):
different gate or a slightlydifferent way of walking, you
kind of you could slip on it oryou could not necessarily slip
Maybe that's not a right wordyou can catch your shoe on it
and so if you have some type ofgait that causes that, you know
there's a potential that it justaffects someone differently and
we don't want that.
So in phase two we eliminatedthat difference of the pile
(12:58):
height as an active way to bemore inclusive to make sure that
we're addressing kind ofdifferent people walking in the
space, and then that's a storythat they could use when talking
with different clients in theirspace about subtle ways, tiny
ways to reach more people and toaffect more people by making it
easier to use the space.
Matt Gerstner (13:20):
Yeah, that's the exact word I was thinking.
It's super subtle, like almostnobody is going to notice that
kind of difference, that kind ofchange, but it can be very
effective.
Lisa Miller (13:30):
And you might not notice it until you somehow just
are walking around and you, youtrip a little bit.
I mean I think we've all beenon a sidewalk out in a public
city where all of a sudden theplane changes a little and you
trip.
I mean I've done that, it'sdefinitely fallen.
Um, so we, we don't want any ofthose kind of things in our
spaces that inhibit people justbeing able to be free and be
(13:51):
comfortable in space?
Katie Reed (13:52):
yeah, like impairing the mobility in a way, if you
well, yeah we looked at thefinishes at a more detailed
level just to review, because wehad these existing finishes
carrying throughout the space.
They want the space to feelconsistent with their other
floor.
Um, so just re-evaluating thepalette is there a use of bright
(14:16):
colors and how are these brightcolors used?
Or the loud patterning?
I wouldn't say there was loudpatterning in this project, but
lisa mentions the carpet rightand the even simplifying that
carpet patterning throughout thespace.
Lisa Miller (14:29):
We had meetings of different carpet patterning yeah
, so we'd have like an angle orwe would have.
We actually had a gray tile andthen a dark black tile.
Okay, and we we learned thatthat dark black tile could look
like a step to someone who has avisual impairment.
Yeah, and so we eliminated thatextra dark black tile out of
(14:50):
the new pattern.
Okay, to try to say, okay, wedon't want anyone who has a
visual impairment thinkingthere's a step there right,
randomly, or a hole I think weall know what it feels like to
miss a step going up or downthey already had, like
contrasting wall base, which isone of the things we talk about
for visually impairedindividuals.
Katie Reed (15:12):
They need to be able to find their way through the
space and that's one smallelement that oftentimes in
workplace we're like matchingthe color of the wall to the
wall base so it fades away.
But we want to be mindful ofthose tiny details so that again
we're capturing all thosedifferent experiences for
(15:34):
individuals walking into thespace.
That's a great point.
Lisa Miller (15:37):
hey, josh, is there any ada rule of contrasting
wall base at all for visualimpairment?
I know there's, there is whenyou have like a stare, you know
you need to have a contrastingnosing.
But is there anything for wallbase or any other?
Josh Simma (15:54):
I don't know Nothing comes to mind off the top of my
head from a color standpoint,for that means a contrast, again
, like you're getting at theinteresting thing of missing a
step and taking a fall for sureon our treads from a contrasting
standpoint within the code.
But I can't think of anythingoff the top of my head that
where there's a in the buildingcode for accessibility or the
(16:16):
ADA for contrasting base toassist.
But again, the idea here ofinclusion within our materials
is so interesting because, kindof like as we're getting at here
, we might also work on someprojects where we as designers
might be a little younger thanthe folks we're designing for
and for us to sometimes put on aliterally the lens of what,
(16:37):
what might be someone'sexperience with cataracts.
So if we're doing, uh, again, anursing home or other kind of
design standpoint, how mightthey experience that same color
palette or interact with it?
Or is there enough contrast forthem to distinguish things?
Lisa Miller (16:52):
Yeah, that's a great point.
I think that that brings itback to this idea that we have
accessibility and you have moreof these rules, regulations, and
then you have good practice,right, and you have the things
that no one's telling you youhave to do it this way, but we
know as designers, it's goodpractice to try to include
people and look at that lens,and I think that's what interior
(17:15):
designers and designers doreally well is to kind of put
that lens on and try to think ofsomeone else and their lived
experience in our spaces.
Matt Gerstner (17:23):
So I'm hearing all these different layers of
rules and regulations up throughgood design practice, and what
I'm curious about is how do thecodes and regulations really
play into this conversation then?
Is this more on the rules andregulations side, josh?
Do you want to fill us in onthis?
Josh Simma (17:44):
On the rules and regulation side is kind of
interesting, and I think one ofthe ideas I like to approach
often is the goal of both theBuilding Codes for Accessibility
and the Americans withDisabilities Act is just
basically trying to say, allright, everything in the design
environment needs to beaccessible.
That's kind of the overlyinggoal and sometimes I think
(18:05):
that's missed a little bitbecause there's so much verbiage
.
It kind of has looked at likewell, these are the minimum
standards and it's like well,not quite necessarily the
minimum standards, but it's likethese are a bunch of the
exceptions to everything beingaccessible.
Here's some provided reachranges to ensure that we're
accommodating, or here's sometactile signage to ensure that
(18:29):
someone with visual impairmentis able to navigate a space.
So that's one of the things I'djust like to come back to again
.
Is that overarching goal Againthat the accessibility code,
accessibility code.
While code is really trying toachieve a large bit of inclusion
, it really wants everything tobe accessible and then it kind
(18:49):
of backs away with a bunch oftechnical requirements that I
often think kind of muddy thewaters a little bit for folks
that's a great way to put it alltogether.
Lisa Miller (18:59):
I love that well, and I I think that's something
interesting that we like to talkabout too is that sometimes
there's contradictions.
Yeah, you know, sometimes thereare things that are muddy and
sometimes there are things thatare good practice.
You know, like, for example,sometimes you know you want all
spaces to be accessible, so youneed that space for it to be
(19:19):
accessible, accessible, beaccessible, so you need that
space for it to be accessible.
But some people getuncomfortable in maybe a larger
space and they will love to workin maybe a phone booth but,
that phone booth isn'taccessible.
Matt Gerstner (19:31):
Right, right.
Lisa Miller (19:31):
So you know you have a contradiction here of
trying to provide spaces thatmaybe work for a certain type of
work area or a certain type ofperson that maybe needs that
comfort or that feeling ofsomething maybe being a little
bit smaller around them, butthen you also have somebody
who's like that's claustrophobic.
So there's this balance of likeso many things that almost
(19:52):
contradict, and that's whyinclusive design is about
providing variety, so that wecould try to get as many people
as possible and provide spacesthat as many people can go in
them as possible.
But not every space is exactlythe same right, right, right,
yeah.
Matt Gerstner (20:07):
I mean I would say it's a lot of like building
upon one one idea upon the otherand trying to find that perfect
inclusion, if you will.
Lisa Miller (20:16):
But there might not be a.
There might not be a perfectone, yeah, and at some point, as
many people as we're going toget, there might be some outlier
, and so that's why it's alwaysimportant to learn from your
projects, learn where thosethings are, so you can
continually improve and evolvecolor palette.
Katie Reed (20:31):
Honestly, a lot of trend right now is to have this
muted, muted, soft color.
That's kind of appeasing toeverything that's brought in.
You might have some pops hereand there with artwork or
(20:51):
accessories, but everything'skind of neutral and that that
ages really well with this space.
But we need to look at theother side.
Who is performing well in thoseenvironments and who needs
something more, who needs theopposite?
So lisa and I are verydifferent here.
Maybe, maybe not.
I think lisa's gonna sit withall the loud color and really
(21:16):
really want that energy in thespace, yeah, and I'm maybe again
more reserved and I'm going tosit with those muted tones and
feel more calm with those.
Um, but we have just the two ofus here that are on the
spectrum of color and soincorporating five people, a
hundred people, a thousandpeople, whatever it is, that's
(21:39):
just one element.
So it makes our jobs like thisbig, so hard, big mind game
almost.
But that's what we're gettingat is we need to really think
through every single detail.
Lisa Miller (21:54):
It's that, it's that spectrum, right, katie's
talking about the spectrum ofpeople who need more simulation
versus people who don't need asmuch simulation to be successful
in work.
Like Katie was saying, I need alot.
I love pattern, I love art, Ilove all of those things in
space.
My house is like I have aleopard print carpet, like I
(22:14):
love things.
I love stuff, right, but likesomeone else might be like this
is too much for me, like I can'tfocus in here, I can't do my
work, so we have to like buildspaces that might have more pop
for people like me, right, orspaces that are a little bit
more muted and respite forpeople like Katie and like
that's just something and that'sjust two, two people on the
(22:35):
spectrum.
You probably have somethingtotally different.
Matt Josh probably hassomething.
Matt Gerstner (22:38):
All the walls of my house are white, so the art
can stand out.
See Every wall.
Lisa Miller (22:42):
So it's more focused, right?
So like I would be like I wanta pink wall with like art on top
of it.
You know, yep Love that Totally.
Matt Gerstner (22:50):
I totally get it.
I totally get it.
So now let's dig intostakeholder and user engagement
just a little bit.
So how do you balance all thecompeting needs and constraints
on a project to get the mostequitable outcome?
It might not be perfect, butwe're going for the most
equitable outcome.
How do we do that?
Lisa Miller (23:08):
I think really we're the guide the designers
and the design team are reallythe guide to try to understand
One.
You have to understand theclient.
You have to understand theusers.
You have to balancestakeholders needs, so not only
the leadership's needs and thewants for a space but also the
people that are there every day.
You know, we have to just askthose questions about like kind
(23:31):
of what makes sense andbalancing branding and color and
all those kind of things, byjust really starting to ask the
questions what are the needs?
And narrow it down down, andwe're really the advocates to
maybe even bringing up some ofthose things, like with our
office workplace client askingthem.
You know, like okay, here aresome things to think about when
(23:52):
you start to think aboutinclusive design.
You know what is important toyou.
Let's make sure we hit thoseimportant to you things and then
if we could get some of theother good to haves then, then
great.
But we got to hit the thingsthat are important to them.
Whether it's, you know, maybeyou have a healthcare where you
have more of an aging population, then you definitely need to
think of what Josh was talkingabout with the color.
You have to think of yellowingof the eyes.
(24:13):
You have to think of thosethings for that population
versus, like, a children'sdesign in healthcare.
Yeah, it's different in thatinstance where you have to have
things that pop for them.
So, knowing your client, askingthe good questions and bringing
up ways that we can help andthink about inclusive design is
one way we can help to do that.
Matt Gerstner (24:33):
I mean, it sounds like it's a whole layer of
things going, because not onlydo you have to understand what
your client does, what, what ifthey manufacture widget a yeah,
that's their function but youhave to understand all the
different people in that spacetoo, yeah, and how they do their
job, and how they do their jobbest crazy we just need to make
(24:54):
sure that we're having theseconversations early too as well.
Katie Reed (24:57):
Get that first conversation started and show,
show them what we know aboutimplementing these things.
Um, that way they're on boardand they can see it through the
design process and that way thespace feels, you can feel it in
the design at the end yeah, yeah, we need to both kind of
(25:18):
consensus build and assist inpushing boundaries.
Josh Simma (25:21):
At the same time we have to kind of recognize that
our design elements mightinvolve some color or some ideas
that aren't present and thatmight again maybe go against the
current trend or ideas thatsomeone has on a campus.
And sometimes we also need tobe cognizant too that we might
be dealing with a very largefacility that has many locations
(25:45):
across the state and they'rereally trying to simplify things
.
They might not want to stock 25different paint colors or
maintain 30 different wallcoverings.
They may be looking to try tosimplify as a way to help them
for what they're trying tomaintain as far as attic stock
or other materials, as they'remaintaining their facilities.
Matt Gerstner (26:07):
I can totally see how that comes into play,
especially when they're tryingto balance budgets and make sure
that.
You know it's a little bitsimpler in some ways.
Lisa Miller (26:15):
We always say it's a balance.
Yeah, it's a balance to findwhat's right for them and right
for the client and the project.
But you have to kind of pickand choose.
Matt Gerstner (26:23):
Totally, and every client is going to be
different in that respect too.
So can you talk aboutchallenges and successes that
you've all seen with regard toimplementing any of these design
approaches?
Katie Reed (26:43):
Thinking about this workplace project that we had.
One strategy that we've come upwith especially, you're either
having an existing design thatyou're trying to play into or
you're kind of building from theground up.
We want to evaluate each planeof whatever space we're in.
So if we're looking at thefloor design, are we considering
pattern right?
Are we considering floortexture?
Are we considering thatcontrast?
(27:04):
Are we looking at furniture andhow that plays out?
We had that discussion aboutcountertops and just usability
of the space.
Yeah, then you're going to lookat the wall planes.
Are we using bright and boldcolors?
Are we using that loudpatterning?
Is there any reflectance?
So, looking at each plane again, we can go to the ceilings as
(27:28):
well, but looking at each planeand really breaking down which
elements play in to the designin that plane makes it more
manageable.
Yeah, we can then havediscussions about patterns and
different options on the floor.
We can have discussions aboutwhere we're highlighting space
with color or wayfinding.
(27:48):
So that's one strategy that wehave.
Lisa Miller (27:52):
I also think we, you know, on that project we
were talking about, we picked acouple, we picked a couple to
hit.
We didn't we're not, we weren'tlike we're going to do not,
we're like we're gonna doeverything possible because,
like we said, some of thechallenges are they're
contradicting information, right.
So we had to pick a couple andwe focused on the carpet, we
focused on the base, we focusedon the lighting was a kind of a
(28:13):
glare, that an idea that therewas a lot of glare in some of
the spaces.
Right, so, addressing thelighting in some of those spaces
, so we really focus on what wecould in that and I think that's
what helps make it successfulis that you, you have to pick
and focus Right.
You can't be like we're goingto do everything I'll, it just
doesn't work like that.
Matt Gerstner (28:35):
That can be a mess of sorts Just trying to do
too many things.
Lisa Miller (28:40):
Sometimes you end up trying to do too many things
and you end up with a white box,like you end up with just a
boring space, because you'relike we don't want to do
anything, or that might feelthis way or this might be do
this, and then you just you justkind of lose specific design
intent or special areas too.
So I can see how that wouldhappen.
The balance goes back to that,totally, totally.
Josh Simma (29:03):
A couple of things just popped to mind.
I think, again from the idea ofinclusion, we as designers do a
great job of trying to reallycast that wide net for how
people might use a space andalso acknowledging that there
are different religiouspractices that are impacted
during the workday and for us to, you know, acknowledge that we
(29:27):
again there are a wide varietyof those practices to consider
and what their needs might beduring the day, and to provide a
space for those needs duringthe day that might be a
non-denominational, you know,room for meditation or prayer,
and then maybe trying to reviewagain the orientations of the
room, where that room fits or itcould be like within a
(29:49):
workplace setting.
In a similar fashion, are weable to provide an area for
washing, if washing is importantto a person and how they might
accommodate washing their feetas part of their practice.
Right, I think we've done agreat job on a couple of
projects of whether it's in ahealth care setting, of again
providing a kind of calming,neutral spot for reflection
(30:13):
during those kind of highanxiety times that take place
within our health care world orin our workplace setting, just
acknowledging the day-to-daypractice where folks need time
to reflect and to have a spot tostep away from your work.
To be able to do thatreflection is important.
Lisa Miller (30:31):
Yeah, that is a super great thing to think about
and I think sometimes we youknow, we as the designers of the
design team, the architectureteam, we have to be the ones to
bring those questions up earlyon when we're planning the
building, because those are thespaces we shouldn't just be
trying to fit in Like.
We have to be intentional, tounderstand, going back to
understanding your client andtheir needs.
(30:51):
You know, it's really our jobas a guide to ask that question
Is that something that you knowthe population, the users here
need?
Can we, we should, we should beplanning for that?
Let's build it into the budget,all those kinds of things,
early on so it's not mistaken orpeople feel left out.
Matt Gerstner (31:08):
So is there anything that we haven't touched
on today, any questions?
I haven't asked any burning hottopics that you want to talk
about.
Lisa Miller (31:19):
Got anything, josh, I have a couple of things.
Yeah, you start.
Josh Simma (31:22):
I'll think.
I'll think I just I want totalk about Got anything.
Josh, I have a couple of thingsyeah you start, I'll think of
them.
Lisa Miller (31:25):
I just I want to reiterate, because we kind of
talked about at the beginning,that this is sometimes people
use these words interchangeably,yeah, and we just want to get
to the point that they're notthe same.
Matt Gerstner (31:35):
Right.
Lisa Miller (31:35):
And that they really are distinct and that
there really isn't one size thatfits all for every building,
and just utilizing, getting inearly, asking the right
questions, using resources,that's how we can design spaces
that really are more inclusive,and that's our goal, I think, is
to make people love the spacesthey're in.
(31:56):
Like I want to go into a spaceand I want to just love it.
I want it to work, I want it tofunction.
I want to go into a space and Iwant to just love it.
I want it to work, I want it tofunction, I want to feel
welcome, and so that's what wereally try to do for our spaces
and do the best we can.
So, kind of just something tonoodle on is that it's not.
Not every project is the same,not every solution is the same.
They all require individualsolutions and tailored solutions
(32:22):
.
Josh Simma (32:23):
I think tag teaming on that idea of solutions again
is us being kind of creative,understanding again a set of
imposed standards or regulations.
You know, I think that we do agreat job of understanding the
accessibility code and ADA andthat there are these very unique
technical requirements.
Knee clearance might besomething how to approach
(32:45):
something and provide kneeclearance for someone.
Or how to address reach rangesfor something and to be able to
not look at that as beingspecific restrictions but as to
being a great set of designopportunities for us to operate
within.
Matt Gerstner (33:03):
Love that thought , Love that thought.
Well, I can't thank all of youenough for being here today.
I know you've given all of ourlisteners a lot to think about
when it comes to inclusive,universal or accessible design.
So thank you all for being here.
Really appreciate it.
Lisa Miller (33:17):
Thank you, thank you, man.
This was fun.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, thank you, man.
Matt Gerstner (33:20):
This was fun.
This has been Side of Designfrom BWBR brought to you without
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(33:45):
a show or start a discussion.
Email us at sideofdesign atbwbrcom.
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast
discussing all aspects of designwith knowledge leaders from
every part of the industry.
Hello and welcome to Side ofDesign from BWBR.
I'm your host, matt Gerstner.
On every project we design, thegoal is to create a space that
welcomes and works for everyone,which sounds simple but
actually opens up a huge arrayof considerations that must be
(00:22):
taken into account.
On today's episode, we'll beexploring accessible, universal
and inclusive design, includingtheir similarities and
differences, real-worldapplications and the role codes
and regulations play.
Joining us today from BWBR isdesign leader Lisa Miller,
interior designer Katie Reed andsenior architectural designer
(00:43):
Josh Sima.
Welcome everyone, thanks forbeing here, we're here.
Great to be here, matt, so let'sjust start with some quick
definitions.
What differentiates accessibledesign from universal design
from inclusive design?
Lisa Miller (00:57):
That's a great question, matt, and I want to
start out by saying that this issomething that I feel like.
People use these termsinterchangeably and while they
might have similarities, theyare distinctly different, and
it's really important when we'rethinking about spaces to know
the differences and know reallywhat we're trying to have as the
end goal.
So, accessible design and I'llread a couple of definitions
(01:20):
here and see what we can come upwith but accessible design is
really designed thatspecifically addresses the needs
of people with disabilities,and the goal of that is to
ensure that the people withimpairments like visual,
auditory, motor, cognitive, etc.
Can access and use the spacesthat we design.
So, specifically, that's whataccessibility design is.
Universal design is a designthat aims to be usable by all
(01:43):
people to the greatest extentpossible, without the needs for
adaptation or specialized design.
Think of universal design as aone size fits all.
That's really that intent ofuniversal design.
And then, inclusive design isdesign that recognizes diversity
and difference andintentionally includes as many
people as possible, especiallythose who are often excluded,
(02:05):
and the goal of that is toreally create experiences that
are usable and have a wide rangeof different people that can be
in it, and we think about thosedifferent perspectives within
the space.
So we like to describe this oneas making sure there's variety
so that each person could find aspace within you know the
environments we build that suitsthem and that could work for
(02:26):
them.
We like to think of them as anested circle diagram.
So your accessible design isyour baseline, like that's your
codes and regulations.
That's making sure people canaccess the space.
And then universal design maybecaptures a little bit more
people.
But we know one size doesn'tfit all, like children don't
(02:46):
necessarily have the same rangesas adults.
So you cannot design one spaceto fit children and adults like
in one design.
So you have to think of how youcan make spaces and that's
where we get to inclusive designthat could fit both Um and so.
That's kind of inclusive designwill capture more and more
people by providing more varietyto do so.
Katie Reed (03:08):
I'm going to take this one step further, and so
Lisa talks about inclusivedesign and this diversity that
we need to accommodate and bemindful of.
So if you're thinking about aspace and all the people that
interact with the space andtheir environment, there's an
incredible range of experiencebehind each person that's
(03:29):
encountering that space.
So if we think about apopulation, we want to be
mindful of this diversity and wecan kind of break it down into
different buckets.
So on surface level, we mightfirst think of this main bucket
of diversity.
On surface level, we mightfirst think of this main bucket
of diversity.
We might define it as age, race, gender, identity, those things
(03:50):
that you first think of withdiversity.
For example, I would say I'm afemale, I'm 28 years old, I'm
looking at this space from thatlens.
Okay, Then we can take it andbreak it down even further.
That once.
Then we can take it and breakit down even further.
We have further buckets that wecan look at when defining
someone's experience in thisspace.
(04:11):
So this next grouping we canlook at education, income,
marital status, their location.
So I've always been based herein St Paul.
That has an effect on where Igo, who I see, how I interact in
a space.
And then we can take it anotherstep and look at workplace
(04:33):
where are we working?
Where are we working with?
What's our job level?
And then even one step furtherhow are we performing?
What's our personality type?
Again, my example I'm anintrovert, so I'm going to look.
I'm not in this space at home,I'm going to look for somewhere
that I can really focus in andit's going to be quieter, maybe
(04:57):
not coming out and talking asmuch.
Yeah, so those are alldimensions that we need to
really consider.
Lisa Miller (05:05):
When we just one category and say this is who you
(05:26):
are and we're going to give youone solution for that.
We have to understand thatpeople are so dimensional and
that Katie and I are not thesame.
Josh and I are not the same.
We never will be, and if wedon't design and think about
trying to just reach as manypeople as possible, we are going
to leave people out and that isnot our intention and we never
(05:47):
want to do that.
So we want to just try to getas many spaces and abilities and
things within spaces that wedesign to help people out and
make sure that our spaces thatwe design helps them be
successful.
Josh Simma (05:58):
I think layering on top of that as well again is the
idea of the accessibility sideof things and from a code
perspective.
You know we've got a longhistory of civil rights and our
civil rights legislation, as youknow, pulled in the
accessibility code to get dealwith those folks that have
disabilities and may haveproblems with both vision and
(06:19):
other mobile impairments.
Stack that on top of thebuilding codes and we have quite
a set of tools to use.
Matt Gerstner (06:27):
I mean, it sounds like there's a lot, of, a lot
of things at our disposal thatwe can use, we can consider,
when we're thinking about allthree different levels of this.
That's a that's wonderful Goodto hear.
Lisa Miller (06:39):
And I think one of the things, too, is all we, we
strive so much to do this, butwe do have to know that there
are things that sometimes rightpeople fall out of that circle
and we have to just continuallywork at gathering resources, at
talking about design, learningfrom people's lived experiences,
to try to include and captureMaybe it's not the right word,
(07:03):
but include as many people intothat bubble of what you know.
Design is Because there aresome people that might be
outliers.
How do we reach them and how dowe make sure that they feel
comfortable?
And that's why design evolvesconstantly.
Matt Gerstner (07:17):
So yeah, I mean, design's never really done, is
it?
No, no.
But we have deadlines.
No, no, but we have deadlines.
So what sort of designconsiderations and or outcomes
might you see within?
Each of these?
Is like one better or is itmore about the context and the
project goals, you know?
Do you have any like specificproject examples, even?
Lisa Miller (07:39):
Yeah, I'll take that one to start and then you
can jump in.
We do think one is better.
I think inclusive design isalways going to be better.
The more people you can include, the better the space, the
better the outcomes for everyoneusing them.
Again, it's just kind ofthinking about how accessibility
and accessible design is yourbaseline.
That's what you should be doing, because we have all those
codes, we have ADA, and then howdo you just find more people?
(08:02):
One example of this that welike to think about is work
surface.
So your desk height Accessibledesign says that this has to be
in order for someone to kind ofwork there.
Josh, tell me what it is for awork surface height for an ADA
wheelchair.
Josh Simma (08:20):
Well, actually that's an interesting kind of
segue a little bit too is justthe idea that from a work
perspective there'sopportunities again to have a
work surface that isn'taccessible, and then that kind
of falls under kind of Title Iof the ADA or other sets of
codes to make reasonableaccommodations from an employer
standpoint, and then we mightleave that workspace so that the
(08:44):
task we're doing might notrequire that counter to be at 2
foot 10, maybe it's up at 3 foot4.
Maybe I'm again I'm standing inthe lab and I'm doing work in a
pharmacy setting, but when mywork is done maybe I go to the
break room and in the break roomI'm not working, I'm not doing
a task that's related to my job,and then I'm going to encounter
(09:06):
a work surface honestly not awork surface, but I'm going to
kind of encounter a counter thatneeds to be at an accessible
height based on a bunch ofstandards, and again that would
be like that two foot ten at amaximum height in that setting.
Lisa Miller (09:18):
So yeah, so accessible would be.
You have to have that specificheight to be accessible.
Right Universal would say everycounter that you have
everywhere is the same height.
Matt Gerstner (09:27):
Ok, be accessible right universal would say every
counter that you haveeverywhere is the same height.
Lisa Miller (09:29):
Okay, so not necessarily good not necessarily
good, because sometimes, likejosh was mentioning, you might
need a standing height, right,but if you have it all at the
same height, it's that.
It's that idea.
Universal is one size fits all,but it doesn't necessarily fit
all because you might be doingdifferent tasks.
So we have to think of that.
Inclusive design would beproviding different options of
heights but, even better,providing a height adjustable
(09:50):
work surface at that space soyou can adjust it per your needs
.
I think that's super importantto kind of think about that
evolution of what it could looklike.
Katie Reed (10:00):
So Lisa's not saying that every surface for
inclusive design needs to bethis height adjustable surface.
Maybe our workstation thatwe're at for most of our day is
that height adjustable.
But then we're thinking aboutother furniture settings.
Are we using laptop tablesthroughout the day If we're
having a casual meeting?
Coffee tables, other bar heightor standing height options, so
(10:24):
that throughout your space youhave a breadth of different
options for different types ofworkers and different abilities
and different conversations thatyou're having or interactions
that you're having.
So just thinking about thoselayers like Lisa describes them,
and thinking about thecountertop example, I think can
(10:47):
lend a hand into how we'rethinking about the rest of the
space and what we're designing.
Lisa Miller (10:52):
And we know the height adjustability is more
expensive.
So if you are trying tobalancing that, you could pick
specific areas that would havethe biggest impact.
You know, maybe you pick aconference room.
You could do a heightadjustable table at a conference
room.
It's more expensive.
But maybe you do one of thosebecause you want to accommodate
some more people versus none.
They make coffee tables thatare height adjustable.
(11:13):
They make everything heightadjustable.
Matt Gerstner (11:15):
now, I wouldn't doubt it.
Lisa Miller (11:16):
But we know that that can be expensive.
So just picking areas that canmake the most impact on the
individuals in the space isreally important, I think, to
consider in design.
Yeah.
Matt Gerstner (11:28):
Do you have any real-world examples of this?
Lisa Miller (11:30):
Well, katie and I worked on this project and this
is maybe not so much aboutcountertops, but Katie and I
worked on this project.
It was a workplace project,actually locally here in St Paul
, and they did a phase one ofthis project and they wanted to
do phase two.
So one thing that they wantedto consider when they wanted to
(11:53):
do phase two is they wereworking with a lot of clients
coming in and they wanted theirspace to be a showcase for what
their clients would then do fortheir clients if that makes
sense and to kind of lead theway to say these are the things
you need to think about whenyou're doing inclusive design.
So they actually had a lot ofmeetings with Katie and I to
talk about what they wanted andwhat things that they wanted to
consider.
So they actually brought someideas to the table for us and we
kind of had conversations.
One thing that we specificallydid on phase one was we actually
(12:16):
had carpet throughout theiroffice space and the design of
the carpet in phase one it had adifference of pile height.
So pile height is the thicknessof the carpet tile and whether
this does meet code.
You can have a slightdifference of carpet pile height
, but we did notice thatsometimes if you have a
(12:36):
different gate or a slightlydifferent way of walking, you
kind of you could slip on it oryou could not necessarily slip
Maybe that's not a right wordyou can catch your shoe on it
and so if you have some type ofgait that causes that, you know
there's a potential that it justaffects someone differently and
we don't want that.
So in phase two we eliminatedthat difference of the pile
(12:58):
height as an active way to bemore inclusive to make sure that
we're addressing kind ofdifferent people walking in the
space, and then that's a storythat they could use when talking
with different clients in theirspace about subtle ways, tiny
ways to reach more people and toaffect more people by making it
easier to use the space.
Matt Gerstner (13:20):
Yeah, that's the exact word I was thinking.
It's super subtle, like almostnobody is going to notice that
kind of difference, that kind ofchange, but it can be very
effective.
Lisa Miller (13:30):
And you might not notice it until you somehow just
are walking around and you, youtrip a little bit.
I mean I think we've all beenon a sidewalk out in a public
city where all of a sudden theplane changes a little and you
trip.
I mean I've done that, it'sdefinitely fallen.
Um, so we, we don't want any ofthose kind of things in our
spaces that inhibit people justbeing able to be free and be
(13:51):
comfortable in space?
Katie Reed (13:52):
yeah, like impairing the mobility in a way, if you
well, yeah we looked at thefinishes at a more detailed
level just to review, because wehad these existing finishes
carrying throughout the space.
They want the space to feelconsistent with their other
floor.
Um, so just re-evaluating thepalette is there a use of bright
(14:16):
colors and how are these brightcolors used?
Or the loud patterning?
I wouldn't say there was loudpatterning in this project, but
lisa mentions the carpet rightand the even simplifying that
carpet patterning throughout thespace.
Lisa Miller (14:29):
We had meetings of different carpet patterning yeah
, so we'd have like an angle orwe would have.
We actually had a gray tile andthen a dark black tile.
Okay, and we we learned thatthat dark black tile could look
like a step to someone who has avisual impairment.
Yeah, and so we eliminated thatextra dark black tile out of
(14:50):
the new pattern.
Okay, to try to say, okay, wedon't want anyone who has a
visual impairment thinkingthere's a step there right,
randomly, or a hole I think weall know what it feels like to
miss a step going up or downthey already had, like
contrasting wall base, which isone of the things we talk about
for visually impairedindividuals.
Katie Reed (15:12):
They need to be able to find their way through the
space and that's one smallelement that oftentimes in
workplace we're like matchingthe color of the wall to the
wall base so it fades away.
But we want to be mindful ofthose tiny details so that again
we're capturing all thosedifferent experiences for
(15:34):
individuals walking into thespace.
That's a great point.
Lisa Miller (15:37):
hey, josh, is there any ada rule of contrasting
wall base at all for visualimpairment?
I know there's, there is whenyou have like a stare, you know
you need to have a contrastingnosing.
But is there anything for wallbase or any other?
Josh Simma (15:54):
I don't know Nothing comes to mind off the top of my
head from a color standpoint,for that means a contrast, again
, like you're getting at theinteresting thing of missing a
step and taking a fall for sureon our treads from a contrasting
standpoint within the code.
But I can't think of anythingoff the top of my head that
where there's a in the buildingcode for accessibility or the
(16:16):
ADA for contrasting base toassist.
But again, the idea here ofinclusion within our materials
is so interesting because, kindof like as we're getting at here
, we might also work on someprojects where we as designers
might be a little younger thanthe folks we're designing for
and for us to sometimes put on aliterally the lens of what,
(16:37):
what might be someone'sexperience with cataracts.
So if we're doing, uh, again, anursing home or other kind of
design standpoint, how mightthey experience that same color
palette or interact with it?
Or is there enough contrast forthem to distinguish things?
Lisa Miller (16:52):
Yeah, that's a great point.
I think that that brings itback to this idea that we have
accessibility and you have moreof these rules, regulations, and
then you have good practice,right, and you have the things
that no one's telling you youhave to do it this way, but we
know as designers, it's goodpractice to try to include
people and look at that lens,and I think that's what interior
(17:15):
designers and designers doreally well is to kind of put
that lens on and try to think ofsomeone else and their lived
experience in our spaces.
Matt Gerstner (17:23):
So I'm hearing all these different layers of
rules and regulations up throughgood design practice, and what
I'm curious about is how do thecodes and regulations really
play into this conversation then?
Is this more on the rules andregulations side, josh?
Do you want to fill us in onthis?
Josh Simma (17:44):
On the rules and regulation side is kind of
interesting, and I think one ofthe ideas I like to approach
often is the goal of both theBuilding Codes for Accessibility
and the Americans withDisabilities Act is just
basically trying to say, allright, everything in the design
environment needs to beaccessible.
That's kind of the overlyinggoal and sometimes I think
(18:05):
that's missed a little bitbecause there's so much verbiage
.
It kind of has looked at likewell, these are the minimum
standards and it's like well,not quite necessarily the
minimum standards, but it's likethese are a bunch of the
exceptions to everything beingaccessible.
Here's some provided reachranges to ensure that we're
accommodating, or here's sometactile signage to ensure that
(18:29):
someone with visual impairmentis able to navigate a space.
So that's one of the things I'djust like to come back to again
.
Is that overarching goal Againthat the accessibility code,
accessibility code.
While code is really trying toachieve a large bit of inclusion
, it really wants everything tobe accessible and then it kind
(18:49):
of backs away with a bunch oftechnical requirements that I
often think kind of muddy thewaters a little bit for folks
that's a great way to put it alltogether.
Lisa Miller (18:59):
I love that well, and I I think that's something
interesting that we like to talkabout too is that sometimes
there's contradictions.
Yeah, you know, sometimes thereare things that are muddy and
sometimes there are things thatare good practice.
You know, like, for example,sometimes you know you want all
spaces to be accessible, so youneed that space for it to be
(19:19):
accessible, accessible, beaccessible, so you need that
space for it to be accessible.
But some people getuncomfortable in maybe a larger
space and they will love to workin maybe a phone booth but,
that phone booth isn'taccessible.
Matt Gerstner (19:31):
Right, right.
Lisa Miller (19:31):
So you know you have a contradiction here of
trying to provide spaces thatmaybe work for a certain type of
work area or a certain type ofperson that maybe needs that
comfort or that feeling ofsomething maybe being a little
bit smaller around them, butthen you also have somebody
who's like that's claustrophobic.
So there's this balance of likeso many things that almost
(19:52):
contradict, and that's whyinclusive design is about
providing variety, so that wecould try to get as many people
as possible and provide spacesthat as many people can go in
them as possible.
But not every space is exactlythe same right, right, right,
yeah.
Matt Gerstner (20:07):
I mean I would say it's a lot of like building
upon one one idea upon the otherand trying to find that perfect
inclusion, if you will.
Lisa Miller (20:16):
But there might not be a.
There might not be a perfectone, yeah, and at some point, as
many people as we're going toget, there might be some outlier
, and so that's why it's alwaysimportant to learn from your
projects, learn where thosethings are, so you can
continually improve and evolvecolor palette.
Katie Reed (20:31):
Honestly, a lot of trend right now is to have this
muted, muted, soft color.
That's kind of appeasing toeverything that's brought in.
You might have some pops hereand there with artwork or
(20:51):
accessories, but everything'skind of neutral and that that
ages really well with this space.
But we need to look at theother side.
Who is performing well in thoseenvironments and who needs
something more, who needs theopposite?
So lisa and I are verydifferent here.
Maybe, maybe not.
I think lisa's gonna sit withall the loud color and really
(21:16):
really want that energy in thespace, yeah, and I'm maybe again
more reserved and I'm going tosit with those muted tones and
feel more calm with those.
Um, but we have just the two ofus here that are on the
spectrum of color and soincorporating five people, a
hundred people, a thousandpeople, whatever it is, that's
(21:39):
just one element.
So it makes our jobs like thisbig, so hard, big mind game
almost.
But that's what we're gettingat is we need to really think
through every single detail.
Lisa Miller (21:54):
It's that, it's that spectrum, right, katie's
talking about the spectrum ofpeople who need more simulation
versus people who don't need asmuch simulation to be successful
in work.
Like Katie was saying, I need alot.
I love pattern, I love art, Ilove all of those things in
space.
My house is like I have aleopard print carpet, like I
(22:14):
love things.
I love stuff, right, but likesomeone else might be like this
is too much for me, like I can'tfocus in here, I can't do my
work, so we have to like buildspaces that might have more pop
for people like me, right, orspaces that are a little bit
more muted and respite forpeople like Katie and like
that's just something and that'sjust two, two people on the
(22:35):
spectrum.
You probably have somethingtotally different.
Matt Josh probably hassomething.
Matt Gerstner (22:38):
All the walls of my house are white, so the art
can stand out.
See Every wall.
Lisa Miller (22:42):
So it's more focused, right?
So like I would be like I wanta pink wall with like art on top
of it.
You know, yep Love that Totally.
Matt Gerstner (22:50):
I totally get it.
I totally get it.
So now let's dig intostakeholder and user engagement
just a little bit.
So how do you balance all thecompeting needs and constraints
on a project to get the mostequitable outcome?
It might not be perfect, butwe're going for the most
equitable outcome.
How do we do that?
Lisa Miller (23:08):
I think really we're the guide the designers
and the design team are reallythe guide to try to understand
One.
You have to understand theclient.
You have to understand theusers.
You have to balancestakeholders needs, so not only
the leadership's needs and thewants for a space but also the
people that are there every day.
You know, we have to just askthose questions about like kind
(23:31):
of what makes sense andbalancing branding and color and
all those kind of things, byjust really starting to ask the
questions what are the needs?
And narrow it down down, andwe're really the advocates to
maybe even bringing up some ofthose things, like with our
office workplace client askingthem.
You know, like okay, here aresome things to think about when
(23:52):
you start to think aboutinclusive design.
You know what is important toyou.
Let's make sure we hit thoseimportant to you things and then
if we could get some of theother good to haves then, then
great.
But we got to hit the thingsthat are important to them.
Whether it's, you know, maybeyou have a healthcare where you
have more of an aging population, then you definitely need to
think of what Josh was talkingabout with the color.
You have to think of yellowingof the eyes.
(24:13):
You have to think of thosethings for that population
versus, like, a children'sdesign in healthcare.
Yeah, it's different in thatinstance where you have to have
things that pop for them.
So, knowing your client, askingthe good questions and bringing
up ways that we can help andthink about inclusive design is
one way we can help to do that.
Matt Gerstner (24:33):
I mean, it sounds like it's a whole layer of
things going, because not onlydo you have to understand what
your client does, what, what ifthey manufacture widget a yeah,
that's their function but youhave to understand all the
different people in that spacetoo, yeah, and how they do their
job, and how they do their jobbest crazy we just need to make
(24:54):
sure that we're having theseconversations early too as well.
Katie Reed (24:57):
Get that first conversation started and show,
show them what we know aboutimplementing these things.
Um, that way they're on boardand they can see it through the
design process and that way thespace feels, you can feel it in
the design at the end yeah, yeah, we need to both kind of
(25:18):
consensus build and assist inpushing boundaries.
Josh Simma (25:21):
At the same time we have to kind of recognize that
our design elements mightinvolve some color or some ideas
that aren't present and thatmight again maybe go against the
current trend or ideas thatsomeone has on a campus.
And sometimes we also need tobe cognizant too that we might
be dealing with a very largefacility that has many locations
(25:45):
across the state and they'rereally trying to simplify things
.
They might not want to stock 25different paint colors or
maintain 30 different wallcoverings.
They may be looking to try tosimplify as a way to help them
for what they're trying tomaintain as far as attic stock
or other materials, as they'remaintaining their facilities.
Matt Gerstner (26:07):
I can totally see how that comes into play,
especially when they're tryingto balance budgets and make sure
that.
You know it's a little bitsimpler in some ways.
Lisa Miller (26:15):
We always say it's a balance.
Yeah, it's a balance to findwhat's right for them and right
for the client and the project.
But you have to kind of pickand choose.
Matt Gerstner (26:23):
Totally, and every client is going to be
different in that respect too.
So can you talk aboutchallenges and successes that
you've all seen with regard toimplementing any of these design
approaches?
Katie Reed (26:43):
Thinking about this workplace project that we had.
One strategy that we've come upwith especially, you're either
having an existing design thatyou're trying to play into or
you're kind of building from theground up.
We want to evaluate each planeof whatever space we're in.
So if we're looking at thefloor design, are we considering
pattern right?
Are we considering floortexture?
Are we considering thatcontrast?
(27:04):
Are we looking at furniture andhow that plays out?
We had that discussion aboutcountertops and just usability
of the space.
Yeah, then you're going to lookat the wall planes.
Are we using bright and boldcolors?
Are we using that loudpatterning?
Is there any reflectance?
So, looking at each plane again, we can go to the ceilings as
(27:28):
well, but looking at each planeand really breaking down which
elements play in to the designin that plane makes it more
manageable.
Yeah, we can then havediscussions about patterns and
different options on the floor.
We can have discussions aboutwhere we're highlighting space
with color or wayfinding.
(27:48):
So that's one strategy that wehave.
Lisa Miller (27:52):
I also think we, you know, on that project we
were talking about, we picked acouple, we picked a couple to
hit.
We didn't we're not, we weren'tlike we're going to do not,
we're like we're gonna doeverything possible because,
like we said, some of thechallenges are they're
contradicting information, right.
So we had to pick a couple andwe focused on the carpet, we
focused on the base, we focusedon the lighting was a kind of a
(28:13):
glare, that an idea that therewas a lot of glare in some of
the spaces.
Right, so, addressing thelighting in some of those spaces
, so we really focus on what wecould in that and I think that's
what helps make it successfulis that you, you have to pick
and focus Right.
You can't be like we're goingto do everything I'll, it just
doesn't work like that.
Matt Gerstner (28:35):
That can be a mess of sorts Just trying to do
too many things.
Lisa Miller (28:40):
Sometimes you end up trying to do too many things
and you end up with a white box,like you end up with just a
boring space, because you'relike we don't want to do
anything, or that might feelthis way or this might be do
this, and then you just you justkind of lose specific design
intent or special areas too.
So I can see how that wouldhappen.
The balance goes back to that,totally, totally.
Josh Simma (29:03):
A couple of things just popped to mind.
I think, again from the idea ofinclusion, we as designers do a
great job of trying to reallycast that wide net for how
people might use a space andalso acknowledging that there
are different religiouspractices that are impacted
during the workday and for us to, you know, acknowledge that we
(29:27):
again there are a wide varietyof those practices to consider
and what their needs might beduring the day, and to provide a
space for those needs duringthe day that might be a
non-denominational, you know,room for meditation or prayer,
and then maybe trying to reviewagain the orientations of the
room, where that room fits or itcould be like within a
(29:49):
workplace setting.
In a similar fashion, are weable to provide an area for
washing, if washing is importantto a person and how they might
accommodate washing their feetas part of their practice.
Right, I think we've done agreat job on a couple of
projects of whether it's in ahealth care setting, of again
providing a kind of calming,neutral spot for reflection
(30:13):
during those kind of highanxiety times that take place
within our health care world orin our workplace setting, just
acknowledging the day-to-daypractice where folks need time
to reflect and to have a spot tostep away from your work.
To be able to do thatreflection is important.
Lisa Miller (30:31):
Yeah, that is a super great thing to think about
and I think sometimes we youknow, we as the designers of the
design team, the architectureteam, we have to be the ones to
bring those questions up earlyon when we're planning the
building, because those are thespaces we shouldn't just be
trying to fit in Like.
We have to be intentional, tounderstand, going back to
understanding your client andtheir needs.
(30:51):
You know, it's really our jobas a guide to ask that question
Is that something that you knowthe population, the users here
need?
Can we, we should, we should beplanning for that?
Let's build it into the budget,all those kinds of things,
early on so it's not mistaken orpeople feel left out.
Matt Gerstner (31:08):
So is there anything that we haven't touched
on today, any questions?
I haven't asked any burning hottopics that you want to talk
about.
Lisa Miller (31:19):
Got anything, josh, I have a couple of things.
Yeah, you start.
Josh Simma (31:22):
I'll think.
I'll think I just I want totalk about Got anything.
Josh, I have a couple of thingsyeah you start, I'll think of
them.
Lisa Miller (31:25):
I just I want to reiterate, because we kind of
talked about at the beginning,that this is sometimes people
use these words interchangeably,yeah, and we just want to get
to the point that they're notthe same.
Matt Gerstner (31:35):
Right.
Lisa Miller (31:35):
And that they really are distinct and that
there really isn't one size thatfits all for every building,
and just utilizing, getting inearly, asking the right
questions, using resources,that's how we can design spaces
that really are more inclusive,and that's our goal, I think, is
to make people love the spacesthey're in.
(31:56):
Like I want to go into a spaceand I want to just love it.
I want it to work, I want it tofunction.
I want to go into a space and Iwant to just love it.
I want it to work, I want it tofunction, I want to feel
welcome, and so that's what wereally try to do for our spaces
and do the best we can.
So, kind of just something tonoodle on is that it's not.
Not every project is the same,not every solution is the same.
They all require individualsolutions and tailored solutions
(32:22):
.
Josh Simma (32:23):
I think tag teaming on that idea of solutions again
is us being kind of creative,understanding again a set of
imposed standards or regulations.
You know, I think that we do agreat job of understanding the
accessibility code and ADA andthat there are these very unique
technical requirements.
Knee clearance might besomething how to approach
(32:45):
something and provide kneeclearance for someone.
Or how to address reach rangesfor something and to be able to
not look at that as beingspecific restrictions but as to
being a great set of designopportunities for us to operate
within.
Matt Gerstner (33:03):
Love that thought , Love that thought.
Well, I can't thank all of youenough for being here today.
I know you've given all of ourlisteners a lot to think about
when it comes to inclusive,universal or accessible design.
So thank you all for being here.
Really appreciate it.
Lisa Miller (33:17):
Thank you, thank you, man.
This was fun.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, thank you, man.
Matt Gerstner (33:20):
This was fun.
This has been Side of Designfrom BWBR brought to you without
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You can also reach out to us ifyou'd like to share an idea for
(33:45):
a show or start a discussion.
Email us at sideofdesign atbwbrcom.
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