October 30, 2025 • 24 mins
As climate change reshapes the way we live—prompting thoughtful changes both big and small to support sustainability—the design profession must evolve as a key player in reducing waste, deforestation, and other drivers of global warming. One critical lever designers can pull is material selection. In this episode, we’re focusing on FSC-certified wood—a single material choice that can make a significant difference.
Joining us from BWBR are President and CEO Terri Ulrick, Senior Specifications Writer Renee Wells, and Sustainability Specialist Rasa Zeltina to discuss what FSC wood is, why it matters, and how designers can meaningfully incorporate it into their projects to support sustainability and social responsibility.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Gerstner (00:00):
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast
discussing all aspects of designwith knowledge leaders from
every part of the industry.
Hello and welcome to Side ofDesign from BWBR.
I'm your host, Matt Gersner.
As the profession works toadapt and counteract the effects
of climate change, materialchoice is one critical
sustainability lever thatdesigners can pull.
(00:22):
Today, we're specificallyfocusing on FSC wood, how it's
incorporated into projects, whatto consider during
specification, and how itsupports our design and
sustainability goals.
Joining this conversation todayfrom BWBR, are senior
specifications writer ReneeWells, and sustainability
specialist Russell Tina.
(00:43):
And we'll also have a briefword from CEO Terry Ulrick as
well.
Thank you all for joining metoday.
Renee Wells (00:50):
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Gerstner (00:53):
So we're gonna ask the question
certification mean?
And then what are the benefitsof using this type of product?
Because I'm sure there's a lotof people out there that don't
exactly understand what FSCcertification is.
Renee Wells (01:08):
Let's start with the FSC part of it.
The Forest Stewardship Council.
It's a nonprofit organizationstarted in the mid-90s that sets
principles or standards forsustainable forestry practices.
Matt Gerstner (01:25):
Okay.
Renee Wells (01:27):
The certification part of it, there are three
certifications that areavailable: the hundred percent
certified materials, therecycled materials, and a mix.
Matt Gerstner (01:42):
Okay.
Renee Wells (01:42):
The mixture is a combination of FSC certified
materials, recycled materials,and FSC control materials.
So I think of it as a good,better, best kind of level.
Matt Gerstner (02:00):
Okay, okay.
Rasa Zeltina (02:01):
Yeah, and I was I was going to say one of the
really cool things about theForest Stewardship Council is
that as Renee mentioned, theyare promoting responsible forest
management.
And it covers the kind ofenvironmental aspects such as no
deforestation and protectingancient forests and preserving
(02:22):
biodiversity, but there are alsoreally important social
benefits as well, likeprotecting workers' rights and
wages and watching out for localcommunities and indigenous
peoples and so forth.
So it's it's really great thatit is uh like a holistic forest
strategy.
Matt Gerstner (02:39):
Oh, absolutely.
I can see that.
And you said it's it's uh anonprofit organization as well.
Renee Wells (02:44):
It is.
Matt Gerstner (02:45):
Incredible.
So what what exactly are thebenefits then of using this type
of product?
Terri Ulrick (02:52):
Wood is something we specify all the time.
And choosing FSC certified woodis one way we can be sure that
the forests it comes from arebeing managed responsibly.
It means the materials we'reusing are helping protect
ecosystems, supporting fairlabor practices, and reducing
the overall carbon footprint ofour work.
Renee Wells (03:11):
When we think about healthy forests, we think about
reduced carbon emissions, uh,increased oxygen production,
enhanced water quality in theecosystems for plants and
animals.
Rasa Zeltina (03:27):
Renee, like how you mentioned kind of conscious
consumerism.
And when we think of oureveryday lives, that is really
on the rise, right?
People want to support uhbrands and buy products that
care about the environment andcare about the people on this
earth.
So we see, like in ourday-to-day lives, we might see,
you can actually see FSCcertified products at home,
(03:50):
right?
It could be a notebook,something, uh, kitchen utensil,
furniture, clothes, shoes.
Um, there are various like bigname brands that are now using
FSC certified products in inthose realms.
So now we can take that idea ofconscious consumerism and
really bring it into the worlduh that we live in
professionally, architecture andwood building products.
(04:11):
So it's really exciting.
And I think another benefit fororganizations that use FSC
certified wood products is thatit can support their
organization's sustainabilitygoals.
So now it's very common forcorporations and nonprofits and
all sorts of institutions torelease annual corporate
sustainability reports.
(04:32):
And that is something thatreally a way for organizations
to really walk the walk issaying we are choosing these
materials because they supportour bigger organizational goals.
Matt Gerstner (04:43):
Amazing.
I'll be honest.
When the idea for this podcastcame up and I I saw some of the
information that was available,I didn't even tie it back to
just general consumer products.
I was totally just thinking inthe realm of architecture.
So the when you said notebook,I my bing, you know, light bulb
went off in my head.
(05:04):
Holy cow, like this thisdoesn't just affect
architecture.
This can affect everything.
Rasa Zeltina (05:09):
Right.
It's far reaching.
And I'm sure we all probablyvery likely all of us have
products right now in our homethat have that the FSC label is
a sort of check mark tree label,this distinctive logo that they
have.
And you just when you when youstart, you know, being aware of
it, you kind of then see iteverywhere in stores.
And I know that FSC, I readthat they recently partnered
(05:30):
with Amazon to offer uh uh FSCstore on Amazon that has over
50,000 products.
So it's really becoming umcommon just sort of across
across everything.
Matt Gerstner (05:43):
That's amazing.
So thinking about uh theproducts that are available, you
know, what kind of practicalconsiderations or limitations do
we have to consider when you'reworking with an FSC product?
Renee Wells (05:55):
I think working with building owners is the
first place to start tounderstand their sustainability
goals.
Working with the contractor andthe owner to understand the
cost impacts of using FSCcertified wood.
Currently, our research showsthat there could be a 15 to 20
(06:17):
percent increase in cost, andthat's the material cost.
Okay, that's not saying yourbutt your entire project is
going to cost 15 to 20 percentmore, you're looking at wood
products.
So uh I looked at a recentproject we did, it was about a
$25 million dollar project, andjust just the wood blocking, the
(06:43):
wood framing on that was$75,000.
So if you take a 15 to 20percent increase, you're looking
at maybe an $11,000 to $15,000increase on a $25 million dollar
project, which is a drop in thebucket to just improve one
(07:05):
product just by using FSCcertified blocking on your
project.
So don't think that you have toconquer the world on every
project.
If you could if you could takea step, it makes a difference.
So I think looking at the costimpacts, looking at the
(07:28):
schedule impacts, we have in inour information gathering, we
have learned that maybe allmillwork fabricators don't stock
FSE certified wood.
It may take a little longer forthem to place the order and get
(07:48):
the materials they need.
But I believe if we work withthe owner and the contractor and
we plan for these, then weincrease our likelihood of
achieving these sustainablestrategies just through
coordinating and and planning.
Rasa Zeltina (08:11):
I love how you were saying this idea of
progress, not perfection.
And maybe a project can pursueFSC certified wood for four
doors only or for wall panels,but not feel like you have to do
it like an all or nothingapproach.
You can do what works with yourbudget and your schedule.
And I think one kind ofchallenge might be the
(08:33):
perception that FSC certifiedwood is going to be
prohibitively expensive or goingto affect the project schedule
more than it actually might inreality.
When we're seeing, when we'retalking with manufacturers and
product reps and we're hearing alot of them consistently say
for standard projects that weproducts that we use on the bulk
of our product projects, asRenee mentioned, maybe 15 to 20
(08:57):
percent-ish price markup, well,that could be entirely doable.
Obviously, you have to considerbudget, but it it is not
necessarily out of the realm ofpossibility at all.
And um, same with, as you said,Renee, with uh lead times.
If you're looking to uh like aone to four week uh lead time
for a product on a project witha really long construction
(09:19):
timeline that is going to beentirely doable.
Now, with a smaller project orsomething with a very, very
tight budget, that's a it'sanother consideration.
But, these these decisions maybe more feasible than we
realize sometimes.
Matt Gerstner (09:33):
Yeah, you were saying how uh not all product
manufacturers necessarily stockFSC products to make their
products.
Are we seeing moremanufacturers using these kinds
of products, though?
Is the demand increasing enoughwhere certain industries are
(09:54):
starting to say, okay, we needto keep up.
We need to make sure that we'vegot these kinds of things.
Renee Wells (09:59):
I think that door manufacturers probably have have
taken the lead on this.
I think maybe millworkfabricators have possibly a
little catching up to do.
Uh, Ressa, you've had somerecent conversations.
Rasa Zeltina (10:16):
Yeah, I have been speaking with with reps and
manufacturers, and my sense isthat we're still at the in the
early stages, relativelyspeaking, okay of FSC or other
their other responsible um woodcertifications as well.
And that and and anticipatingdemand to increase, there's
(10:38):
there's a sense that it will beincreasing, but we're maybe
still at the point where that'snot quite happening very
robustly yet.
Matt Gerstner (10:45):
Okay.
Renee Wells (10:46):
And I think that's where architects and design
teams can push this.
Matt Gerstner (10:51):
Absolutely.
So from a spec specificationside of things, is there
anything else we need to takeinto consideration when
utilizing these kinds of productproducts in a project?
Renee Wells (11:05):
Communicating the sustainability goals to your
specification writer is is animportant start.
Utilizing the products, lookingat all the possibilities on a
project, there's such a widevariety.
If you're looking at plasticlaminate casework, you think of
(11:26):
the core to all of these couldbe FSC certified plywood,
particle board, MDF.
There are so manypossibilities.
If you're looking at wood wallpanels or wood ceilings, just
incorporating sustainablestrategies using FSC certified
(11:50):
wood veneer.
There are just so manypossibilities.
Matt Gerstner (11:53):
So it sounds like there's a there's the
possibility from a specificationside of incorporating this into
numerous areas within thespecifications.
Renee Wells (12:03):
Yes, if you think of anything that's wood, it it's
gonna be the doors in the millwork, wood wall panels,
ceilings, floors, countertops,if you've got plastic lamina
countertops, all of those havethat wood core.
Wood framing and blocking.
If you have a furniture packageincluded in your project,
(12:28):
furniture is a growing use ofFSC certified.
Rasa Zeltina (12:34):
So it sounds Renee like virtually any product that
you any wood building productyou can get in an FSC version.
Yes, that's great.
Terri Ulrick (12:43):
At the end of the day, specifying FSC certified
wood is about trust and impact.
We can tell our clients withconfidence that their projects
are contributing to healthierforests and healthier
communities.
And we know that thosedecisions, multiplied across
many projects, add up to realchange.
That's the kind of leadershipour industry needs right now,
and it's the kind of leadershipwe're committed to.
Matt Gerstner (13:04):
Can you kind of talk about maybe some challenges
or successes that you've seen,you know, implementing FSC
materials into projects?
Rasa Zeltina (13:14):
I think one challenge is that using FSC
certified products does add adegree of complexity.
And it is something that issome is something that we can
work with.
But it you do have to thinkabout a few extra things with
FSC.
So, first of all, uh amanufacturer, uh lumber uh wood
(13:35):
manufacturer has to becertified.
They have to be authorized touse FSC certified products.
And that is a good thingbecause FSC is holding its
standards at every at everypoint along the process, but
they have to go through uhyearly auditing and there are
certain things that they have todo.
So you have to make sure thatyou're working with the correct
(13:56):
manufacturers who have thisability to use FSC.
And then there are other itemsas well, such as a chain of
custody documentation, whichbasically means that the FSC
wood is is tracked at everypoint along of its journey from
the forest to the finishedproduct site.
And that requiresaccountability and paperwork as
(14:17):
well.
So there are things to be awareof, they're very doable, but
you have to pay a bit moreattention when FSC is part of
the project.
Renee Wells (14:26):
There are some sustainable strategies that are
more appealing because theyoffer a payback to the owner
financially.
And FSC is really about doingthe right thing for the
environment.
It's doing the right thing forcommunities and the environment
(14:51):
and the overall help that usingthese strategies gives the
communities, the environment.
That is immeasurable.
Rasa Zeltina (15:04):
Yes.
And I think I think it is alsonatural for people to want to
reap the the public relationsbenefits of their decision.
You know, they're doing theright thing for its own sake,
but also wanting people to know,like, hey, we did this because
we care about that.
I think that's I think that'sincredibly understandable and
relatable.
(15:25):
And I think there are ways thatorganizations can do that.
If they have FSE certified woodon uh a new building, they
could point that out in tours.
If it's a higher ed facility,you know, you have the student
tour leaders bringingprospective students through.
And I've heard they're highlyinfluential to prospective
students.
They can point out, hey, wehave this new building, and we
(15:48):
specifically chose thisresponsibly managed wood to
feature in here.
It could also be the same, thesame idea for a prospective uh
new employee touring, uh touringan office space.
Or as we mentioned earlier, itcould be something that could be
included in a corporatesustainability report.
So there are ways that I thinkyou can work in showing people
(16:08):
that this is a value that yourorganization has.
And in this day and age, whenconsumers and people are more
than ever want to be alignedvalues-wise with where they
school, where they work, whothey are working with, that is
an important piece of it that wecan kind of lift out of kind of
obscurity to so people can be alittle bit more aware of that.
Matt Gerstner (16:31):
Absolutely.
I think that's probably one ofthe intangible benefits, if you
will, to you utilizing certainproducts or utilizing certain
methods of of construction,building materials that you're
using.
It's it's not necessarily likeRenee said, going to give you to
give the company a financialbenefit immediately, but it's
got intangible benefits to themthat will pay off well in the
(16:55):
long run, which is amazing.
So when we're thinking aboutthe FSC certified woods, then uh
if it's not the right fit for aproject, are there alternatives
to this that are still fallinginto the sustainability realm?
Renee Wells (17:11):
There are other organizations.
I think FSC is the mostinternationally recognized.
There are others.
Like the program forendorsement of forest
certification, PEFC is isanother large one.
(17:32):
There are others that promotesustainable, responsible
forestry practices.
I think even if certificationis not suitable for a project,
whether it's the the budget orthe schedule, I still believe
there are sustainable strategiesthat we can use.
(17:53):
Using wood veneer instead ofsolid wood, you know, cutting
down on the need for new wood isa is a strategy.
Eliminating the use of exoticwoods or using reclaimed wood if
it's available, find locallysourced wood.
(18:17):
Anything we can do to reducethe carbon footprint and protect
the earth's resources is a stepin the right direction.
Rasa Zeltina (18:27):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I would add to thatalso reuse in instead of feeling
like you have to, if it's arenovation project, instead of
feeling like you have tonecessarily bring in a new
product, maybe you havesomething in place that can just
be reused, a wood, a woodproduct or or or something else
as well, is something toconsider.
I also wanted to tack on towhat Renee said about the other
(18:51):
organizations beyond the seathat have responsible forest
management.
There is one called Reneementioned one, and there is
another called SustainableForestry Initiative or SFI.
This is another organizationwhere you might see their
products in your home.
You might see the SFI logo onsome of your home products.
And there is another one,Canadian Standards Association.
(19:13):
So there are a variety of them.
We are learning, talking withour manufacturers and reps, is
that in our environment where wedesign FSC is dominant.
They need to go through acertification to provide these
products.
So instead of opting formultiple certifications for
multiple organizations, themanufacturers that we've spoken
to are kind of putting all theireggs in the FSC bucket.
(19:37):
But in other parts of theworld, or perhaps even other
parts of the country, theremight be other certifications
that are a bit um more, you're abit more likely to see as well.
Matt Gerstner (19:48):
Okay.
Okay, amazing.
So so it sounds like there'soptions, but it also sounds like
FSC is pretty much leading theway right now.
Rasa Zeltina (19:57):
Yes.
Renee Wells (19:58):
I think they are really the gold standard.
Matt Gerstner (20:01):
Fantastic.
So I know I've asked a lot ofquestions today, and we've hit
on a lot of topics, but I don'tnecessarily get all the
questions out.
Are is there anything that Ihaven't asked that you've got
some information you wanted totalk about?
Renee Wells (20:15):
Just just reiterating the importance of of
what this organization is doingand how many areas it it
impacts.
Cutting down on harmfulchemicals that are being used in
forests, the water quality thatwe get, the filtration that we
(20:37):
get from these forests, themental impact on the public as a
whole of seeing healthy forestsand not seeing just this
massive deforestation.
We just can't emphasize theimpact enough of we have to
(20:59):
protect these resources if we'reat a critical point and have
been for a while.
So I think as architects, weneed we need to push this, we
need to make this happen.
Rasa Zeltina (21:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Well said, Renee.
And then I would I would tackon, reiterate also this idea of
progress, not perfection.
Can we have the the courage totake that first step for a
project and recommend FSCproducts for maybe one category
and try it out and see how itgoes and know that the cost
impact likely will be minimal.
(21:37):
But we we get we get to then asan organization and our clients
get to learn what does thatmean?
What does it look like when weincorporate this?
Um, how is that affecting ouroverall project?
Um, so we get we get more dataand more information while
simultaneously doing the rightthing.
Terri Ulrick (21:54):
For us at BWBR, it's not just about checking a
sustainability box.
It's about aligning with thelarger commitments we've made as
a profession.
The AIA materials pledgechallenges us to think about
health, equity, and climate inevery material decision we make.
The AIA framework for designexcellence reminds us that
design excellence is also aboutenvironment and social
(22:15):
responsibility.
FSC Wood is a very tangible wayto put those values into
practice.
Matt Gerstner (22:20):
I really can't thank you all enough for being
here today because I can see andhear the passion about
sustainability and aboutpreserving our resources.
And it's just an amazing thingthat we're all doing and we're
trying to implement.
And progress over perfection,absolutely fantastic.
(22:41):
More small steps taken lead tothose bigger goals, right?
Renee Wells (22:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Matt Gerstner (22:46):
Thank you all for being here.
I really appreciate your timetoday.
Renee Wells (22:49):
Thanks.
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Gerstner (22:51):
And thank you to our listeners for listening.
Go check out the podcast, gocheck out more information on
our website, and we will see youagain soon.
This has been Side of Designfrom BWBR, brought to you
without any paid advertisementsor commercials.
If you found value in whatyou've heard today, give us a
like, leave us a comment, orbetter yet, share us with your
(23:15):
network.
You can also reach out to us ifyou'd like to share an idea for
a show or start a discussion.
Email us at sideofdesign@bwbr.com.
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast
discussing all aspects of designwith knowledge leaders from
every part of the industry.
Hello and welcome to Side ofDesign from BWBR.
I'm your host, Matt Gersner.
As the profession works toadapt and counteract the effects
of climate change, materialchoice is one critical
sustainability lever thatdesigners can pull.
(00:22):
Today, we're specificallyfocusing on FSC wood, how it's
incorporated into projects, whatto consider during
specification, and how itsupports our design and
sustainability goals.
Joining this conversation todayfrom BWBR, are senior
specifications writer ReneeWells, and sustainability
specialist Russell Tina.
(00:43):
And we'll also have a briefword from CEO Terry Ulrick as
well.
Thank you all for joining metoday.
Renee Wells (00:50):
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Gerstner (00:53):
So we're gonna ask the question
certification mean?
And then what are the benefitsof using this type of product?
Because I'm sure there's a lotof people out there that don't
exactly understand what FSCcertification is.
Renee Wells (01:08):
Let's start with the FSC part of it.
The Forest Stewardship Council.
It's a nonprofit organizationstarted in the mid-90s that sets
principles or standards forsustainable forestry practices.
Matt Gerstner (01:25):
Okay.
Renee Wells (01:27):
The certification part of it, there are three
certifications that areavailable: the hundred percent
certified materials, therecycled materials, and a mix.
Matt Gerstner (01:42):
Okay.
Renee Wells (01:42):
The mixture is a combination of FSC certified
materials, recycled materials,and FSC control materials.
So I think of it as a good,better, best kind of level.
Matt Gerstner (02:00):
Okay, okay.
Rasa Zeltina (02:01):
Yeah, and I was I was going to say one of the
really cool things about theForest Stewardship Council is
that as Renee mentioned, theyare promoting responsible forest
management.
And it covers the kind ofenvironmental aspects such as no
deforestation and protectingancient forests and preserving
(02:22):
biodiversity, but there are alsoreally important social
benefits as well, likeprotecting workers' rights and
wages and watching out for localcommunities and indigenous
peoples and so forth.
So it's it's really great thatit is uh like a holistic forest
strategy.
Matt Gerstner (02:39):
Oh, absolutely.
I can see that.
And you said it's it's uh anonprofit organization as well.
Renee Wells (02:44):
It is.
Matt Gerstner (02:45):
Incredible.
So what what exactly are thebenefits then of using this type
of product?
Terri Ulrick (02:52):
Wood is something we specify all the time.
And choosing FSC certified woodis one way we can be sure that
the forests it comes from arebeing managed responsibly.
It means the materials we'reusing are helping protect
ecosystems, supporting fairlabor practices, and reducing
the overall carbon footprint ofour work.
Renee Wells (03:11):
When we think about healthy forests, we think about
reduced carbon emissions, uh,increased oxygen production,
enhanced water quality in theecosystems for plants and
animals.
Rasa Zeltina (03:27):
Renee, like how you mentioned kind of conscious
consumerism.
And when we think of oureveryday lives, that is really
on the rise, right?
People want to support uhbrands and buy products that
care about the environment andcare about the people on this
earth.
So we see, like in ourday-to-day lives, we might see,
you can actually see FSCcertified products at home,
(03:50):
right?
It could be a notebook,something, uh, kitchen utensil,
furniture, clothes, shoes.
Um, there are various like bigname brands that are now using
FSC certified products in inthose realms.
So now we can take that idea ofconscious consumerism and
really bring it into the worlduh that we live in
professionally, architecture andwood building products.
(04:11):
So it's really exciting.
And I think another benefit fororganizations that use FSC
certified wood products is thatit can support their
organization's sustainabilitygoals.
So now it's very common forcorporations and nonprofits and
all sorts of institutions torelease annual corporate
sustainability reports.
(04:32):
And that is something thatreally a way for organizations
to really walk the walk issaying we are choosing these
materials because they supportour bigger organizational goals.
Matt Gerstner (04:43):
Amazing.
I'll be honest.
When the idea for this podcastcame up and I I saw some of the
information that was available,I didn't even tie it back to
just general consumer products.
I was totally just thinking inthe realm of architecture.
So the when you said notebook,I my bing, you know, light bulb
went off in my head.
(05:04):
Holy cow, like this thisdoesn't just affect
architecture.
This can affect everything.
Rasa Zeltina (05:09):
Right.
It's far reaching.
And I'm sure we all probablyvery likely all of us have
products right now in our homethat have that the FSC label is
a sort of check mark tree label,this distinctive logo that they
have.
And you just when you when youstart, you know, being aware of
it, you kind of then see iteverywhere in stores.
And I know that FSC, I readthat they recently partnered
(05:30):
with Amazon to offer uh uh FSCstore on Amazon that has over
50,000 products.
So it's really becoming umcommon just sort of across
across everything.
Matt Gerstner (05:43):
That's amazing.
So thinking about uh theproducts that are available, you
know, what kind of practicalconsiderations or limitations do
we have to consider when you'reworking with an FSC product?
Renee Wells (05:55):
I think working with building owners is the
first place to start tounderstand their sustainability
goals.
Working with the contractor andthe owner to understand the
cost impacts of using FSCcertified wood.
Currently, our research showsthat there could be a 15 to 20
(06:17):
percent increase in cost, andthat's the material cost.
Okay, that's not saying yourbutt your entire project is
going to cost 15 to 20 percentmore, you're looking at wood
products.
So uh I looked at a recentproject we did, it was about a
$25 million dollar project, andjust just the wood blocking, the
(06:43):
wood framing on that was$75,000.
So if you take a 15 to 20percent increase, you're looking
at maybe an $11,000 to $15,000increase on a $25 million dollar
project, which is a drop in thebucket to just improve one
(07:05):
product just by using FSCcertified blocking on your
project.
So don't think that you have toconquer the world on every
project.
If you could if you could takea step, it makes a difference.
So I think looking at the costimpacts, looking at the
(07:28):
schedule impacts, we have in inour information gathering, we
have learned that maybe allmillwork fabricators don't stock
FSE certified wood.
It may take a little longer forthem to place the order and get
(07:48):
the materials they need.
But I believe if we work withthe owner and the contractor and
we plan for these, then weincrease our likelihood of
achieving these sustainablestrategies just through
coordinating and and planning.
Rasa Zeltina (08:11):
I love how you were saying this idea of
progress, not perfection.
And maybe a project can pursueFSC certified wood for four
doors only or for wall panels,but not feel like you have to do
it like an all or nothingapproach.
You can do what works with yourbudget and your schedule.
And I think one kind ofchallenge might be the
(08:33):
perception that FSC certifiedwood is going to be
prohibitively expensive or goingto affect the project schedule
more than it actually might inreality.
When we're seeing, when we'retalking with manufacturers and
product reps and we're hearing alot of them consistently say
for standard projects that weproducts that we use on the bulk
of our product projects, asRenee mentioned, maybe 15 to 20
(08:57):
percent-ish price markup, well,that could be entirely doable.
Obviously, you have to considerbudget, but it it is not
necessarily out of the realm ofpossibility at all.
And um, same with, as you said,Renee, with uh lead times.
If you're looking to uh like aone to four week uh lead time
for a product on a project witha really long construction
(09:19):
timeline that is going to beentirely doable.
Now, with a smaller project orsomething with a very, very
tight budget, that's a it'sanother consideration.
But, these these decisions maybe more feasible than we
realize sometimes.
Matt Gerstner (09:33):
Yeah, you were saying how uh not all product
manufacturers necessarily stockFSC products to make their
products.
Are we seeing moremanufacturers using these kinds
of products, though?
Is the demand increasing enoughwhere certain industries are
(09:54):
starting to say, okay, we needto keep up.
We need to make sure that we'vegot these kinds of things.
Renee Wells (09:59):
I think that door manufacturers probably have have
taken the lead on this.
I think maybe millworkfabricators have possibly a
little catching up to do.
Uh, Ressa, you've had somerecent conversations.
Rasa Zeltina (10:16):
Yeah, I have been speaking with with reps and
manufacturers, and my sense isthat we're still at the in the
early stages, relativelyspeaking, okay of FSC or other
their other responsible um woodcertifications as well.
And that and and anticipatingdemand to increase, there's
(10:38):
there's a sense that it will beincreasing, but we're maybe
still at the point where that'snot quite happening very
robustly yet.
Matt Gerstner (10:45):
Okay.
Renee Wells (10:46):
And I think that's where architects and design
teams can push this.
Matt Gerstner (10:51):
Absolutely.
So from a spec specificationside of things, is there
anything else we need to takeinto consideration when
utilizing these kinds of productproducts in a project?
Renee Wells (11:05):
Communicating the sustainability goals to your
specification writer is is animportant start.
Utilizing the products, lookingat all the possibilities on a
project, there's such a widevariety.
If you're looking at plasticlaminate casework, you think of
(11:26):
the core to all of these couldbe FSC certified plywood,
particle board, MDF.
There are so manypossibilities.
If you're looking at wood wallpanels or wood ceilings, just
incorporating sustainablestrategies using FSC certified
(11:50):
wood veneer.
There are just so manypossibilities.
Matt Gerstner (11:53):
So it sounds like there's a there's the
possibility from a specificationside of incorporating this into
numerous areas within thespecifications.
Renee Wells (12:03):
Yes, if you think of anything that's wood, it it's
gonna be the doors in the millwork, wood wall panels,
ceilings, floors, countertops,if you've got plastic lamina
countertops, all of those havethat wood core.
Wood framing and blocking.
If you have a furniture packageincluded in your project,
(12:28):
furniture is a growing use ofFSC certified.
Rasa Zeltina (12:34):
So it sounds Renee like virtually any product that
you any wood building productyou can get in an FSC version.
Yes, that's great.
Terri Ulrick (12:43):
At the end of the day, specifying FSC certified
wood is about trust and impact.
We can tell our clients withconfidence that their projects
are contributing to healthierforests and healthier
communities.
And we know that thosedecisions, multiplied across
many projects, add up to realchange.
That's the kind of leadershipour industry needs right now,
and it's the kind of leadershipwe're committed to.
Matt Gerstner (13:04):
Can you kind of talk about maybe some challenges
or successes that you've seen,you know, implementing FSC
materials into projects?
Rasa Zeltina (13:14):
I think one challenge is that using FSC
certified products does add adegree of complexity.
And it is something that issome is something that we can
work with.
But it you do have to thinkabout a few extra things with
FSC.
So, first of all, uh amanufacturer, uh lumber uh wood
(13:35):
manufacturer has to becertified.
They have to be authorized touse FSC certified products.
And that is a good thingbecause FSC is holding its
standards at every at everypoint along the process, but
they have to go through uhyearly auditing and there are
certain things that they have todo.
So you have to make sure thatyou're working with the correct
(13:56):
manufacturers who have thisability to use FSC.
And then there are other itemsas well, such as a chain of
custody documentation, whichbasically means that the FSC
wood is is tracked at everypoint along of its journey from
the forest to the finishedproduct site.
And that requiresaccountability and paperwork as
(14:17):
well.
So there are things to be awareof, they're very doable, but
you have to pay a bit moreattention when FSC is part of
the project.
Renee Wells (14:26):
There are some sustainable strategies that are
more appealing because theyoffer a payback to the owner
financially.
And FSC is really about doingthe right thing for the
environment.
It's doing the right thing forcommunities and the environment
(14:51):
and the overall help that usingthese strategies gives the
communities, the environment.
That is immeasurable.
Rasa Zeltina (15:04):
Yes.
And I think I think it is alsonatural for people to want to
reap the the public relationsbenefits of their decision.
You know, they're doing theright thing for its own sake,
but also wanting people to know,like, hey, we did this because
we care about that.
I think that's I think that'sincredibly understandable and
relatable.
(15:25):
And I think there are ways thatorganizations can do that.
If they have FSE certified woodon uh a new building, they
could point that out in tours.
If it's a higher ed facility,you know, you have the student
tour leaders bringingprospective students through.
And I've heard they're highlyinfluential to prospective
students.
They can point out, hey, wehave this new building, and we
(15:48):
specifically chose thisresponsibly managed wood to
feature in here.
It could also be the same, thesame idea for a prospective uh
new employee touring, uh touringan office space.
Or as we mentioned earlier, itcould be something that could be
included in a corporatesustainability report.
So there are ways that I thinkyou can work in showing people
(16:08):
that this is a value that yourorganization has.
And in this day and age, whenconsumers and people are more
than ever want to be alignedvalues-wise with where they
school, where they work, whothey are working with, that is
an important piece of it that wecan kind of lift out of kind of
obscurity to so people can be alittle bit more aware of that.
Matt Gerstner (16:31):
Absolutely.
I think that's probably one ofthe intangible benefits, if you
will, to you utilizing certainproducts or utilizing certain
methods of of construction,building materials that you're
using.
It's it's not necessarily likeRenee said, going to give you to
give the company a financialbenefit immediately, but it's
got intangible benefits to themthat will pay off well in the
(16:55):
long run, which is amazing.
So when we're thinking aboutthe FSC certified woods, then uh
if it's not the right fit for aproject, are there alternatives
to this that are still fallinginto the sustainability realm?
Renee Wells (17:11):
There are other organizations.
I think FSC is the mostinternationally recognized.
There are others.
Like the program forendorsement of forest
certification, PEFC is isanother large one.
(17:32):
There are others that promotesustainable, responsible
forestry practices.
I think even if certificationis not suitable for a project,
whether it's the the budget orthe schedule, I still believe
there are sustainable strategiesthat we can use.
(17:53):
Using wood veneer instead ofsolid wood, you know, cutting
down on the need for new wood isa is a strategy.
Eliminating the use of exoticwoods or using reclaimed wood if
it's available, find locallysourced wood.
(18:17):
Anything we can do to reducethe carbon footprint and protect
the earth's resources is a stepin the right direction.
Rasa Zeltina (18:27):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I would add to thatalso reuse in instead of feeling
like you have to, if it's arenovation project, instead of
feeling like you have tonecessarily bring in a new
product, maybe you havesomething in place that can just
be reused, a wood, a woodproduct or or or something else
as well, is something toconsider.
I also wanted to tack on towhat Renee said about the other
(18:51):
organizations beyond the seathat have responsible forest
management.
There is one called Reneementioned one, and there is
another called SustainableForestry Initiative or SFI.
This is another organizationwhere you might see their
products in your home.
You might see the SFI logo onsome of your home products.
And there is another one,Canadian Standards Association.
(19:13):
So there are a variety of them.
We are learning, talking withour manufacturers and reps, is
that in our environment where wedesign FSC is dominant.
They need to go through acertification to provide these
products.
So instead of opting formultiple certifications for
multiple organizations, themanufacturers that we've spoken
to are kind of putting all theireggs in the FSC bucket.
(19:37):
But in other parts of theworld, or perhaps even other
parts of the country, theremight be other certifications
that are a bit um more, you're abit more likely to see as well.
Matt Gerstner (19:48):
Okay.
Okay, amazing.
So so it sounds like there'soptions, but it also sounds like
FSC is pretty much leading theway right now.
Rasa Zeltina (19:57):
Yes.
Renee Wells (19:58):
I think they are really the gold standard.
Matt Gerstner (20:01):
Fantastic.
So I know I've asked a lot ofquestions today, and we've hit
on a lot of topics, but I don'tnecessarily get all the
questions out.
Are is there anything that Ihaven't asked that you've got
some information you wanted totalk about?
Renee Wells (20:15):
Just just reiterating the importance of of
what this organization is doingand how many areas it it
impacts.
Cutting down on harmfulchemicals that are being used in
forests, the water quality thatwe get, the filtration that we
(20:37):
get from these forests, themental impact on the public as a
whole of seeing healthy forestsand not seeing just this
massive deforestation.
We just can't emphasize theimpact enough of we have to
(20:59):
protect these resources if we'reat a critical point and have
been for a while.
So I think as architects, weneed we need to push this, we
need to make this happen.
Rasa Zeltina (21:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Well said, Renee.
And then I would I would tackon, reiterate also this idea of
progress, not perfection.
Can we have the the courage totake that first step for a
project and recommend FSCproducts for maybe one category
and try it out and see how itgoes and know that the cost
impact likely will be minimal.
(21:37):
But we we get we get to then asan organization and our clients
get to learn what does thatmean?
What does it look like when weincorporate this?
Um, how is that affecting ouroverall project?
Um, so we get we get more dataand more information while
simultaneously doing the rightthing.
Terri Ulrick (21:54):
For us at BWBR, it's not just about checking a
sustainability box.
It's about aligning with thelarger commitments we've made as
a profession.
The AIA materials pledgechallenges us to think about
health, equity, and climate inevery material decision we make.
The AIA framework for designexcellence reminds us that
design excellence is also aboutenvironment and social
(22:15):
responsibility.
FSC Wood is a very tangible wayto put those values into
practice.
Matt Gerstner (22:20):
I really can't thank you all enough for being
here today because I can see andhear the passion about
sustainability and aboutpreserving our resources.
And it's just an amazing thingthat we're all doing and we're
trying to implement.
And progress over perfection,absolutely fantastic.
(22:41):
More small steps taken lead tothose bigger goals, right?
Renee Wells (22:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Matt Gerstner (22:46):
Thank you all for being here.
I really appreciate your timetoday.
Renee Wells (22:49):
Thanks.
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Gerstner (22:51):
And thank you to our listeners for listening.
Go check out the podcast, gocheck out more information on
our website, and we will see youagain soon.
This has been Side of Designfrom BWBR, brought to you
without any paid advertisementsor commercials.
If you found value in whatyou've heard today, give us a
like, leave us a comment, orbetter yet, share us with your
(23:15):
network.
You can also reach out to us ifyou'd like to share an idea for
a show or start a discussion.
Email us at sideofdesign@bwbr.com.
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