October 29, 2024 • 49 mins
Employee engagement goes beyond happiness and job satisfaction—those are byproducts of something deeper. As BWBR's Director of People and Culture Tricia Eiswald and Knowledge Manager Kari Shonblom discuss in the latest Side of Design episode, engagement means genuine involvement and enthusiasm at work and in the workplace. Their insights delve into factors that drive engagement, BWBR’s own engagement strategies, and how organizations can go beyond employee satisfaction to unlock the full potential of their teams.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Gerstner (00:00):
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast
discussing all aspects of designwith knowledge leaders from
every part of the industry.
Hello and welcome to Side ofDesign from BWBR.
I'm your host, Matt Gerstner.
On this episode, we'll bedigging into employee engagement
.
In a competitively remarked andduring a time of huge change to
the norms and expectations ofwork, it's more important than
(00:23):
ever for organizations tounderstand how their employees
view their culture and takepractical action from those
insights to continue to grow andevolve.
Joining us from BWBR are TriciaEiswald, Director of People and
Culture, and Carrie Schonblum,Knowledge Manager, who will be
digging into some of thematerial they shared at the 2024
(00:43):
AIA Conference on Architectureand Design.
Tricia, Carrie, thank you somuch for joining me today.
Tricia Eiswald (00:48):
Thanks so much for having us, Matt.
Thank you.
Matt Gerstner (00:51):
I'm just going to jump right into the questions
here and get going so we can getsome information out to all of
our listeners.
So just for quick context whatdo we mean by employee
engagement and why is it soimportant?
What do we mean by employeeengagement and why is it so
important?
Kari Shonblom (01:05):
So we've decided to use the Gallup definition of
this, because Gallup is a leaderin this space.
They've done a lot of workaround this, so why not just use
what they have already produced?
So the Gallup definition is theinvolvement and enthusiasm of
employees in their work andworkplace, and this is not to be
(01:28):
confused with happiness that'sa byproduct of engagement.
And it's also not to beconfused with satisfaction,
which can be more transactional.
If you're simply satisfied withsomething, you're not going the
extra mile, you're not reallycommitted to it.
If that makes sense and it'simportant because, as Gallup has
proven, engaged employees areinvested more in their work and
(01:51):
the outcomes and it shows inmeasurable ways like increased
customer loyalty and engagement,increased productivity,
increase in employee well-being,in company profitability and
also, to be noted, there's adecrease in things like
absenteeism and attrition.
(02:12):
Okay, some of the drivers ofengagement that we use to sort
of frame this and why it'simportant things that we keep
referring back to.
There's five main driverspurpose having a feeling like
your work is meaningful, it'scontributing to something
greater than yourself, orsomething that you believe in
Opportunities for development,having a sense of control over
(02:35):
your own career path and how youwant to learn and grow, having
a caring manager, somebody who'san advocate for you, because
they're the person that's goingto be, hopefully, your champion
in helping you to achieve thosedevelopment goals.
Ongoing conversations we'lltouch back on this but having
some clarity around what you'reexpected to do and how you're
(02:57):
expected to meet goals and howyou're expected to achieve those
development goals you've setfor yourself is having frequent
dialogue between yourself andyour manager or between
leadership and staff, like that.
Transparency is so importanthere.
I think we'll touch on thissome more, but I found that to
be one of the biggest factors inmy own engagement is I never
(03:20):
have to question what's going onor feel like I'm in the dark.
Right, I feel like it's alwaysvery well communicated and
leadership does a great jobsharing what they can, even if
something's a work in progress.
The final driver of engagementis a focus on strengths and in
my world of knowledge management, we celebrate what we know.
(03:41):
That's the whole point ofknowledge management is caring
about the expertise we have inhouse, because we don't sell a
product on a shelf.
We're selling our people andwhat we know.
So focusing on people'sstrengths and allowing them to
showcase that and help otherpeople learn the same thing and
upskill Like, I think that'ssuch a cornerstone of our
(04:02):
culture here.
Matt Gerstner (04:03):
That's kind of funny because I think I've heard
a lot of those individualdrivers not all of them, but
I've heard a lot of them talkedabout in different publications
and different articles you know,just the employee satisfaction
the feeling of well-being.
Yes, All of those things I'veread about in different articles
related to culture, related toengagement.
Kari Shonblom (04:24):
Yeah, and it's such a complex, complicated
thing, right, but when you startweaving it all together, I feel
like that's where we have had alot of success and I know I'm
newer to the company but I'mlike fully on board and in on
B2BBR because of these things,like I've been other places and
this just feels different.
(04:45):
Okay, it feels good.
Matt Gerstner (04:47):
So, as a newer employee to the firm, you have
sensed all of these drivers.
Kari Shonblom (04:52):
I have yeah.
Fantastic Like in a reallypositive way.
Tricia Eiswald (04:56):
That's really good to hear.
That's very good to hear.
Matt Gerstner (04:59):
So can you walk us through some of the
highlights, then, of BWBR's mostrecent survey results and the
stats and put them kind of inindustry context?
Tricia Eiswald (05:09):
Absolutely yeah, I'm excited to, actually,
because in 2022, we had reallypositive results where we had I
believe it was 81% of folksresponded, and in 2023, our most
recent one we had 91% of ouremployees respond to the survey.
So that is actually almosttwice the national average for
(05:31):
participation.
So we're doing something righthere in terms of getting folks
to respond to the engagementsurvey to tell us how engaged
they are.
Matt Gerstner (05:41):
That's just stunning that it's twice the
national average age they are.
That's.
That's a stunning that it'stwice the national average.
That's.
I think it says a lot about thepeople here and the company and
how it, how everybody reallyfeels if you can get that many
people to actually take a survey.
Tricia Eiswald (05:55):
Right, I agree, Especially one that you redo
annually.
You do it once a year.
You know it's year over yearit's keeps ticking up in the
right direction.
So it's been positive.
Kari Shonblom (06:05):
Right, and it's not like we had to sit in front
of each person and ask them tofill it out Right.
Twist their arm it was just viaour standard communication
channels, which goes to showthat people are paying attention
to those Right.
I think that's important.
Matt Gerstner (06:18):
I'd say that's another sign of engagement.
Right People are really payingattention to every one of those
channels.
Kari Shonblom (06:23):
I would tie that back to those ongoing
conversations.
It's the communication channels, how information is being
disseminated throughout the firm.
If people know that it's notjust noise, it's pertinent and
relevant to them, so they do payattention.
Matt Gerstner (06:38):
That's fantastic.
So what are some of the aspectsof BWBR's history and culture,
then, that have contributed toour current high levels of
engagement?
Tricia Eiswald (06:48):
Sure, I can start with a couple of points.
I would say the fact that weput people first, not only on
the wall right in our mission,vision and values, we actually
walk out putting people first,walk out, putting people first.
So in every decision that we'remaking at the people and
(07:08):
culture team and the board atthe leadership level, we are
thinking with a lens of how doesthis impact our folks?
How does this impact our people?
In order to demonstrate that wehave a people first culture,
it's important to havetransparency.
So, as Carrie alluded to, wehave to be open and honest about
what's going on in the business, what's going on in the markets
(07:28):
, what's going on in the economy.
And I think that's one thingthat we've done really well with
over the years is since we putpeople first.
One of the best ways to buildtrust is to be open and honest
about what's going on, and we dothat as much as we possibly can
.
So we try to be transparent, wetry to make sure that people
(07:49):
know what kind of big thingswe're trying to work on and peel
back the curtain a little bitto the inner workings of the
business a little bit more, sopeople feel like they can come
along on the journey, versus.
This is how these decisions aregoing to impact you eventually.
They're along for the journey.
(08:09):
They're along for hearingwhat's going on and seeing the
change and being bought into itall along, so they can be
advocates and champions, and soI think that's one thing that's
a little bit different.
Some other cultures andorganizations that I've been in
previously have held it kind ofclose to the vest, where they
have a little bit different.
Some other cultures andorganizations that I've been in
previously have held it kind ofclose to the vest, where they
have a lot of information.
(08:29):
There's a lot going on at thecompany, but that isn't
disseminated to all staff.
So there's only certain pocketsof people that are in the know,
if you will, and everyone elseis just sort of guessing and
making up their own storiesabout what might be going on,
and that is just breeding groundfor gossip.
Matt Gerstner (08:49):
Exactly, gossip just erodes your credibility.
Kari Shonblom (08:53):
It erodes people's engagement.
It erodes their desire to wantto contribute to something if
they feel like they're notreally part of it.
Yeah, exactly.
Tricia Eiswald (09:04):
One of the other points I would say is we've
always had an open-door policy.
So with this new, remote, kindof distant world, you still can
feel the open-door-ness of ourculture.
So you can walk up to ourpresident, ceo, who's in one
corner or the other of theoffice, and literally just walk
(09:27):
up and ask a question, say, Ihave an idea, hey, what do you
think about this?
And there's an openness andthere's an invitation for a
conversation.
Yeah, she might be busy and shemight have to say, hey, could
you set up something in 15minutes.
And that goes for not just thepresident, ceo, but every other
leader in the office.
I feel like it's prettyapproachable and is willing to
(09:51):
and open to ideas.
And that makes every oneindividual who comes up and has
an idea or a thought if youlisten to them and hear them and
then take the next step of likeactioning whatever their idea
was, that builds trust and itmakes us all better.
So why wouldn't we have an opendoor and be transparent as much
(10:13):
as we possibly can?
Matt Gerstner (10:15):
Yeah.
Kari Shonblom (10:15):
And I'll say from my perspective, this is not
just lip service Like from dayone.
Trish, I hope you don't mind ifI share this, but you shared
internally it was at a meetingabout equity and involvement
with employees.
You shared that you had areally negative experience with
an HR director early in yourcareer and you said you made it
your mission that you would makesure no one else ever felt that
(10:38):
way and I felt it from day one.
I remember being toured aroundthe office.
You had just come in.
You had been out on PTO orsomething.
You came in.
You made a point to come andsay hello to me and introduce
yourself.
I've seen you be so hospitableand go out of your way to make
sure you know everybody's name,know some information about them
(10:58):
as a person, not just theirrole, but like something they're
interested in or what they'redoing sort of on the side.
Like you care about the peoplethat you work with and I feel
like as a senior leader, assomeone on our board, you set
that tone for the otherleadership.
I feel like that's so impactfulthat all of you leaders help,
(11:19):
sort of like encourage eachother in certain behaviors and
keep each other in check and itjust transitions down throughout
the rest of the firm.
It's really felt is what I'mtrying to say.
Tricia Eiswald (11:31):
Oh, thank you for that.
It's a hard balance in thedirector role because you do
have to balance what's best forthe firm and what's best for
people and when we put peoplefirst, it's a tough spot to be
in when you're like, okay, theperson over here needs this and
is struggling, the businessneeds this.
How do we blend and advocatefor both?
(11:52):
And that's where I do think ourleadership genuinely cares and
I really appreciate hearing thatyou feel that, because I think
it's not just me, you know, it'severy leader here, like you
said, and I hope that peoplefeel that.
I hope that when people come in,it's not that they're sold a.
Hey, we're caring, we'reempathetic, we're, you know,
(12:15):
trusting.
Yeah, we're a family oh, neveruse that term.
Right?
I hope people feel that becauseit is the intent, that's the
spirit, my personal mantras, youknow, making sure everyone
feels valued, appreciated andsupported.
Because of the history that Ihave in bringing forward, to the
fact that I don't want anyoneever to feel what I felt in a
(12:38):
seat at one point in my careerand have made it my mission as
the people and culture person tocare genuinely about people,
and I think all of our leadersdo and everyone we hire is
really along that same lines.
In alignment with that, peoplefirst approach.
Matt Gerstner (12:57):
Now I know I've heard a few times from different
co-workers that it's especiallythe newer with the coworkers
that they're somewhat amazedsometimes at how accessible
leadership is here.
Kari Shonblom (13:12):
It's a good thing , it's a real good thing.
Like you said, defining thatbalance of what's good for the
business and the person.
I've seen you and our otherleadership have to deliver hard
messages.
Matt Gerstner (13:26):
Yes.
Kari Shonblom (13:26):
But you always back it up with the business
decision and even if peopledon't like it, we can at least
respect the fact that you'regiving us data and information
about why the decision was made,so we can at least feel like it
wasn't arbitrary.
Tricia Eiswald (13:41):
Absolutely.
We want to give you enoughcontext and information that you
know it tells as much of thestory as we possibly can.
There are some things, aseveryone knows, in people and
culture that you just can't say.
So we try to come up with youknow what is appropriate and
what is the most transparentapproach that everybody can be
on the same page and then changemanagement is hard, you know.
(14:04):
So you have to figure out howto navigate and communicate
properly and then when's theright timing to kind of push
forward, and it is tricky and itis a balance.
So I'm happy to hear that youfeel that and that you're seeing
the information getdisseminated to the firm.
Kari Shonblom (14:21):
When we're talking about our culture.
I think it's really importantto note that, like I said, we
have solid communicationchannels, but we also have
avenues, like our town hall,which typically, if we have a
big communication, we'll postsomething on our intranet, we'll
mention it at a staff meetingwhich happens monthly and then
(14:45):
we will have a town hall aboutbig events, big changes, big
things that need to be discussed, and that's a chance for people
to submit anonymous questions,and leadership does to the best
of their ability, from what I'veseen, addresses all the
questions that come in.
Absolutely, even if, like yousaid, you can't share everything
, you share what you can.
(15:06):
I've seen leadership say youknow we're still looking into
this.
This is still a point ofdiscussion.
We don't have an answer quiteyet, right, but we are
considering these various thingswhen making our decision and
we'll report back once we'velanded on something.
And I think that's reallyimportant to make sure that
people feel like they're heard.
Tricia Eiswald (15:25):
Absolutely that Poll Everywhere tool that we use
during the town hall, settingit up a week in advance, you
know, and giving people ananonymous opportunity not to
mention you don't even have toput your name in you know
anonymous opportunity to say orask anything and we sit and
answer them on the fly in thehot seat.
(15:46):
But it's one of the things thatI appreciate most, even though
it's hard to not know what'sgoing to come out, because it
could be about anything.
But we're honestly wanting toget feedback and input and
communicate as transparently aspossible.
So, like you said, we can'talways answer everything in
(16:06):
depth, but we'll do our best toprovide answers to whatever's
being asked and that's an hourlong.
Kari Shonblom (16:14):
Meeting typically happens four to six times a
year and we get really highparticipation in those Don't we
the majority.
The people attend in person orvirtually yeah.
Matt Gerstner (16:26):
And then the fact that we do record those make
them available after the fact,in-house only, and any staff
that did miss it can still catchup and still see.
You know all the informationthat was presented, hear the
questions that were asked, yeah.
And then they have theopportunity then later on to
maybe approach leadership, whois presenting at that, and ask
(16:47):
another question if they sochoose.
Or they could submit it at thenext town hall anonymously if
they want to make sure thattheir voice is still heard but
don't quite feel like they wantto put their face out there for
it.
Tricia Eiswald (16:58):
Yes, yep.
Matt Gerstner (16:59):
So I'm going to ask a weird question.
So what kind of questions gointo this survey that you've
talked about that go out to thestaff and try to gauge the
engagement.
Tricia Eiswald (17:11):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So 75%, I would say, of thesurvey remains the same from
each time we do it.
We initially started with hey.
When we started this about fiveyears ago, we literally went
out to Gallup.
You know, carrie, read thedefinition of engagement from
Gallup they are survey companyextraordinaire.
So we literally went okay,let's Google, you know where do
(17:34):
we start, and got some samplequestions.
A lot of it is aroundwell-being, you know.
Do you feel like you arechallenged in your role?
Do you feel like you haveautonomy?
Do you feel like you aretrusted?
Things like that that reallyget at.
What is your employeeexperience?
You know?
Give us more details about that.
(17:55):
What's it like to sit in yourseat?
And then, what we do with theother quarters.
We pick whatever might be goingon at the moment, either in the
climate, in the environment, inthe office, in the whatever.
If there's some specific issueor topic that we need to dig
into a little bit, that's whatwe use the other quarter for.
(18:16):
So three quarters will remainthe same.
People get used to filling outthe same things, and then
there's a bit of a pulse checkfor whatever might be going on
Excellent, excellent.
Kari Shonblom (18:27):
And I appreciate that there's the you answer a
question right on a scale or yesor no, or whatever it might be.
But then there's in severalplaces the opportunity for open
comment to get some moreclarification about that.
And I've heard you say you readall of those Absolutely.
Every word you try to providefeedback, like when you're
regurgitating the results backto the rest of the firm.
(18:49):
You're trying to bucket all ofthose responses into some way so
every single person can feellike their responses are seen
and heard as part of the results.
Tricia Eiswald (19:00):
Yes, that's the challenge of it is making sure
that when you get the results,you have to.
There's a few key things aroundthe engagement survey to
remember.
One if you're going to do anengagement survey and I highly
encourage folks to do it,whether it's five questions or
25, you know, whatever fits yourorganization, I highly
(19:22):
encourage you to do it.
But only if you are ready andwilling to take action on the
results.
Because if you're askingquestions that you're like, well
, if it comes back in thisdirection doesn't matter,
because we're not changing thendon't ask, Don't do the survey,
don't ask the questions ifyou're not willing to take
(19:42):
action on the responses.
So that would be one key tip.
The second one would be you haveto be willing to take action
quickly.
You can't get the surveyresults and say yeah, yeah, yeah
, we'll do that in three years.
That won't fly.
People will not fill out thesecond engagement survey.
They will say I've said mypiece, I have used my voice,
(20:05):
you've heard my comment, nothinghas changed.
So then guess what?
When the next engagement surveycomes around, they're probably
not as inclined to do it becausenothing happened as a result of
the first one.
So you have to be willing totake action, and take action
quickly on what you find out.
The third tip that I would sayif you're doing this is Carrie
(20:26):
alluded to the buckets of themessaging.
So when you get all of thecomments in, if you can distill
it down to a few key themes, butmake sure you're giving enough
information that everyone cansee their voice in the themes.
So if some individual said youknow, I'm really fed up the fact
(20:47):
that there's not this type ofcoffee in your office in one of
our offices.
If somebody is really distraughton any one particular issue, if
they don't see that reflectedin the feedback or the themes
anywhere, they're going to startto wonder about how the results
were maybe skewed or the lensto which they're being delivered
(21:11):
.
Matt Gerstner (21:12):
How was it filtered Exactly?
Tricia Eiswald (21:13):
They're not going to trust the results.
Matt Gerstner (21:15):
Right.
Tricia Eiswald (21:15):
So you have to make sure that you don't need to
put in you can't there's notroom for every little comment
but make sure you're capturingenough of the theme buckets so
that everyone can see themselvesin the feedback Right and not
sugarcoating.
Exactly, that's reallyimportant too.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a really fun process,honestly, and I look forward to
(21:39):
getting the results every year,kind of with one eye closed you
know, it's always a little bitof a Ooh.
It's kind of like a performancereview for the leadership team
and the board.
Yeah, that's what it feels likeCause, you get all of your
results back from your reviewand you need to act on them and
you need to you know, I can seehow easily this, like sending
(22:02):
out a survey, could go south.
Absolutely.
Matt Gerstner (22:05):
If you're not willing, like you said, to take
the information and do somethingwith it right away.
Tricia Eiswald (22:10):
Yeah and be honest about the results.
Yes, you have to have somevulnerability in there.
If you see feedback that makesyou a little prickly, you need
to deliver it anyway becauseit's honest.
Matt Gerstner (22:20):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Kari Shonblom (22:22):
Because, even though, as a leader, you may not
have known that that type ofresponse was coming in, I can
guarantee that the gossip andeverything that's happening, the
undercurrents throughout thecompany, people know this stuff
innately anyway.
Exactly so why not bring it tothe surface, where you can do
something about it, right?
Tricia Eiswald (22:43):
The fact that 91% of the office is willing to
share that with us.
That's huge.
Yeah that we really take thatas an encouraging sign that
we're moving in the rightdirection.
Matt Gerstner (22:55):
Yeah, love it, absolutely love it.
Can you speak to the realitiesof the investment needed, so
both in the survey itself and inthe resulting action items, and
then like the return on thatinvestment that you've seen?
Tricia Eiswald (23:08):
Sure.
So in terms of putting ittogether, in terms of an
investment, of creating theactual survey, it doesn't take
that long.
The first one took a little bitlonger and I would say a few
hours, right.
So a few hours to come up withthe first one that we did and
then get a little bit of a pulsefor the other quarter of the
(23:30):
questions Subsequent years whenwe do it year over year.
If 75% stays the same,obviously the investment shrinks
through time and it's just alittle bit of editing.
You know, it's a little bit ofwhat's the current topic, what
are we curious about right now,and then change up those few
questions and then that's prettymuch it in terms of.
(23:52):
And then there's an investmenton the reading, the comments
side.
So there's a manual, you know,actual person investment
processing it through andgetting reading and sorting and
bucketing all of the feedback.
Kari Shonblom (24:06):
The investment to actually do the survey is
pretty minimal.
Yeah, you know it's coming upwith questions, it's finding a
survey tool.
I think it's important that youallow people to submit their
response anonymously.
Tricia Eiswald (24:18):
Yes, right, so feel free to express anonymously
yes.
Kari Shonblom (24:20):
Right, that's always huge.
They feel free to expresswhatever opinions.
Yes, and we do not ask anyqualifiers about their role or
what office they're in.
Tricia Eiswald (24:27):
Exactly.
Kari Shonblom (24:28):
Anything like that that could tie their
response to that specificindividual Right.
Matt Gerstner (24:33):
Making it truly anonymous.
Kari Shonblom (24:34):
Truly anonymous and like really a safe place to
share your voice honestly, whichis huge.
Yeah, like really a safe placeto share your voice on, which is
huge, yeah.
So I think underpinning this isthat cultural element that we
want to hear constructivefeedback so that we can make
improvements.
Because it's that old adage youcan't manage what you don't
(24:54):
measure.
Yeah, absolutely.
So having points like realpoints to look back on and say,
okay, this is what we're goingto focus on, here's how we're
going to do it.
I think we also have a reallystrong planning process here,
like planning and budgeting anannual cycle of that and robust
communication and the leadershipgroups to make sure that action
(25:18):
is taken.
The way our organization isstructured, we have the board of
directors, we've got principals, business unit directors, we've
got key managers so thisaccountability and
responsibility gets dispersedand I think that's really
critical to not overburden anyone person or particular group.
(25:40):
And I think that really playsinto so I'm at the key manager
level right.
That plays into my engagementwhen I'm told I own something
and I have some autonomy overhow I'm executing that.
If it falls into my world andI'm ultimately responsible for
it, that's huge Then that I canrun with it and have some leeway
on how that gets defined andexecuted.
(26:03):
Obviously, it's being likecycled up through the levels of
leadership and make sure thateveryone's on board and everyone
approves and it aligns with theoverall firm goals.
But I think those are reallykey, critical things to have in
place.
Yes, definitely, some some wayof taking action on the results
right, you need to be able toidentify the priorities, have
the people, you need to make aplan and then take action on it
(26:26):
and make sure that you're smartabout how you're budgeting.
Yeah, absolutely, because someof the things we invest in,
we've been questioned.
I remember hearing this at thetown hall some of our social
events Right, things like that.
People questioned why are westill having lunches for
everyone every week at our eatand greet?
Tricia Eiswald (26:47):
Because that's part of our culture, is our
response.
So, as a result of some of thesurvey results through the years
, we have incorporated thingslike that.
So we have an eat and greet onThursdays where we have lunch
for everyone.
If you want to come to one ofour offices, well you know
everybody has lunch, but thedeal is you need to sit there
(27:08):
and interact with colleagues andit is called eat and greet for
a reason.
We've also done in this wholeremote environment and distant
and hybrid working.
One of the other things that wefeel is key to our culture is
gathering, so bringing folkstogether at least twice a year.
(27:29):
So we have done that now overthe past two years at least, and
over last year we were remindedsignificantly at the winter
party of how important it was togather at least a couple of
times a year.
Everyone from all offices, anyhouses or wherever they might be
(27:49):
, comes to one of our locationstwice a year, and that is where
we build trust, we havecollaboration, we have fun
together.
We might have different teams,have different meetings and
things.
So those in terms of investment, when we're talking about
engagement survey, the actualsurvey itself isn't necessarily
(28:10):
what costs you.
Let's say it's kind of theaction, steps and things that
you take as a result.
And if you look at just to giveother firms an indication the
social things that we puttogether, our budget, the social
aspect is 0.003% of our overalloperating budget.
(28:30):
So just to give you anindication of the scale of our
investment in sort of culturalthings, it's 0.003%, so not huge
but very important.
Matt Gerstner (28:42):
Yeah, I was going to say it's not huge, but it's
huge.
Tricia Eiswald (28:45):
Right.
Matt Gerstner (28:45):
Because it's huge in that we do get together
twice a year fully as a company.
And we have other little eventsscheduled throughout the year
that are part of that budget,and you've got the eat and
greets on Thursdays and there'sall these little different
things, but those are the thingsthat really make it.
Tricia Eiswald (29:07):
Right, and we do this one other really fun event
annually called BWBRU, and it'sintended to be just firm
knowledge but really the valueof it.
So we take 50 people, 50colleagues, from our St Paul
office and we drive them upnorth, take them up to a resort
in northern Minnesota and wespend about a day.
(29:30):
It's literally about 24 hourstotal, but we bus everyone up
together.
We've got team collaboratingevents, we've got a scavenger
hunt when we're there and thewhole point is gathering but
also making our business better.
So we do a couple of businesscontent sessions where we might
(29:51):
brainstorm a topic and get ideasfrom everyone who's there.
But we also just play and thatis a significant contributor to
our overall culture and bringingpeople from other locations,
environments, who may not workphysically together and with
each other, but the fact thatthey can, at least a couple of
(30:13):
times a year, at our springevent and our winter event,
gather and develop trust andrelationships and then we do
this one thing a year thatrotates through people attending
, that's really fun.
Matt Gerstner (30:25):
It's just fun.
I've heard nothing but goodthings.
Tricia Eiswald (30:29):
And.
Matt Gerstner (30:29):
I participated in it several years ago, which was
fantastic.
Kari Shonblom (30:32):
I got to go my first year and it was so
invaluable in terms of gettingto know people because I'd only
been with the firm for sixmonths.
At this point I'd hardly had achance to get to know most
people, and we bring people fromall offices or remote locations
.
We just depart from the St Pauloffice.
It's not only employees from ourSt Paul office and the time it
(30:56):
would have taken to establishsome of the relationships I made
just in casual happenstance andin opportunities to work with
people.
It would have taken years,versus what was accomplished in
two days.
Matt Gerstner (31:10):
Because there's elements of it that are
work-oriented, but it's allwrapped in fun.
It's all wrapped in getting toknow each other.
It's all wrapped in workingRight.
It's all wrapped in getting toknow each other.
It's all wrapped in workingtogether Right, in a fun way,
right.
Kari Shonblom (31:23):
From my perspective, the world of
knowledge management, which isreally about, like I said,
caring about what we knowcollectively, finding ways to
identify that, collect it andamplify it.
You only share what you knowwith who you know.
Matt Gerstner (31:39):
Yes.
Kari Shonblom (31:40):
You need to have that element of trust because
it's a little bit vulnerable toput something out there to say,
hey, I know this really awesome,cool thing.
Yes.
Tricia Eiswald (31:46):
I think it's really smart.
Kari Shonblom (31:48):
I hope you think it's really smart.
Yeah, awesome too, yeah, sohaving these social interactions
is critical for people gettingto know each other on a personal
level.
Tricia Eiswald (31:58):
Absolutely.
Kari Shonblom (31:58):
So you have that level of comfort you for people
getting to know each other on apersonal level Absolutely.
So you have that level ofcomfort.
You understand how the personlikes to communicate, there's a
sense of camaraderie.
Yeah, then, like we're togetherworking on a team.
Right, we're in it together forcollective success.
And I heard Larry Prusak is avery like well-known and
(32:19):
accomplished author and lecturerand stuff in the world of
knowledge management is a verywell-known and accomplished
author and lecturer and stuff inthe world of knowledge
management.
He said once bringing peopletogether over food, paying for
their meal is much cheaper thanpaying for their time.
Oh, absolutely yeah, so he feltlike the best knowledge
management happens over food andaround food Interesting, so the
things like the eat and greet,because the expectation is that
you don't just grab your foodand go back to your desk and
(32:40):
squirrel it away inside.
Right by yourself.
You're getting to know people,yeah, and that all contributes
to this culture of like we knoweach other.
Therefore, I feel comfortablesharing what I know with you.
Yes, and I think it's a reallynice like cornerstone of BWB are
that?
I feel like deeply when I seesome of the things we have going
(33:02):
on here that people love tolearn here and it's very
celebrated we don't have theexperts that are hiding in the
corner trying to hold on totheir knowledge because it feels
like it gives them job security.
Right, we definitely celebratepeople for sharing what they
know and you're, like, moreelevated if you become the
mentor and you're hostingvarious events internally and
(33:25):
sharing what you know.
You get so much more likeinternal publicity and credit
for that versus I'm the singularexpert.
I'm not going to tell you whatI know, you have to come to me
to extract that and it gives mea sense of value.
That way it's like completelyflipped on its head, which I
really appreciate.
Matt Gerstner (33:45):
It's kind of funny because everybody here is
a knowledge leader in some way.
Everybody has something thatthey know, that someone else
here does not know, right, andthey share it.
Kari Shonblom (33:56):
Yeah, that's true , very true, because we've had
this knowledge managementculture.
Like I'm the only knowledgemanager here, but my job really
is just to steward, like I said,this identification, collection
and amplification of what weknow.
But it's not like I'm doingthis all myself, and we've had
the knowledge management programsince 2007.
(34:17):
So that's a really long time tocontinue to build on this
culture and help peopleunderstand and develop the
programs that support thatculture, like the internal
landmark learning sessions thatwe do.
That's upskilling staff.
Our forum, which is anyone cansay I'm working on this cool
(34:38):
thing or there's a change inprocess and share it with the
rest of the firm, the fact thatwe document all of this stuff
and share it on our very robustintranet so everyone always has
access and can stay informed viathat, and like robust search
capabilities to find exactlywhat you're looking for yes, I
think that's all really, reallyimportant to help people do
(34:59):
their best work yeah, you alwayshave a resource that you can
find the answer oh, whether it'swritten down, or it gives you
the path to find the person toask the question in person and
then, because we've had allthese social events, you maybe
already have interacted withthem so you're not scared to
pick up the phone, or, if youhappen to be in an office, go
(35:20):
swing by their desk, orsomething like that.
Tricia Eiswald (35:22):
Yeah, it's a great point.
Matt Gerstner (35:24):
As a social mentor, because I've mentored at
least a half dozen people inthe office.
Kari Shonblom (35:30):
But even the fact that we have social mentors.
That's baked into ouronboarding, yeah.
Matt Gerstner (35:37):
I mean, one of the first things I tell them is
don't be afraid to ask questions.
Yes, good, you will never belooked down on here for asking a
question and getting somethingdone and getting it done right.
The first time down on here,for asking a question and
getting something done andgetting it done right the first
time, I said and if you have aquestion for me, come and ask me
and I will be.
I will guarantee you that if Iknow the answer, you're going to
get it, and if I don't know theanswer, I probably know someone
(36:00):
who does.
Kari Shonblom (36:01):
Exactly, and I can get you there faster.
Yes, yeah, but even pausing.
What is the expectation of thesocial mentor?
As, as a social mentor, whatare you expected to do?
As a social mentor.
Matt Gerstner (36:11):
You introduce them to the people in the office
.
You show them around, show themwhere resources are.
You take them out for lunch ontheir first day with several
other employees and get themacquainted with people here and
then, in a week or so, afterthey've been here answering
questions, kind of touching inwith them and making sure
everything's going good, takethem out with leadership, yes,
(36:34):
and go out for a lunch and thatkind of thing, and you really
bring them into the fold so theyknow who they can go to.
They know people.
It's not just coming in.
Here's your desk, sit down,here's the manual, get to work.
Tricia Eiswald (36:45):
Right yeah manual get to work Right.
Yeah, I knew the answer, butthat was just a leading.
Matt Gerstner (36:52):
I loved it.
Yeah, did I do good?
You did great.
Kari Shonblom (36:54):
I've never been in the social mentor role, so
yeah, I've done it forperspective.
It's great.
Tricia Eiswald (37:00):
I really appreciated having it when I
started.
Kari Shonblom (37:03):
It was awesome to have somebody baked in that's
like your buddy from the get go.
Matt Gerstner (37:07):
Yeah, it's great, it's fun.
It's fun to be the mentor.
Kari Shonblom (37:11):
Right.
Matt Gerstner (37:12):
So what are some lessons learned or best
practices that you would sharewith other firms that are
looking to increase engagementin a lasting way?
Kari Shonblom (37:21):
I would argue to look at your culture and look at
your senior leadership.
Yes, you know sometimes thebest.
I say this a lot sometimes thebest doers are not the best
leaders.
Matt Gerstner (37:33):
Right.
Kari Shonblom (37:34):
And I think some firms potentially promote folks
that are the best doer inwhatever category they fall into
and maybe aren't trained enoughon the softer skills in terms
of leading people and I've seenthis throughout my entire career
that leadership is sofundamental in setting the tone
(37:54):
for everyone else.
Like I said on our intranet, wehave high engagement on there,
but it's because we haveleadership posting and letting
people know that it's okay tospend time on there.
Sure, at all of our meetingsand events we've got leadership
who are jumping in and providingcontext or leading certain
meetings.
We don't have leadershiptalking out of one side of their
(38:15):
mouth and then showing withtheir actions something else.
Yes, Right.
Tricia Eiswald (38:19):
I feel like that's really critical.
Kari Shonblom (38:20):
I see our leadership like talk the talk
and walk the walk.
Tricia Eiswald (38:24):
That is very critical, yeah, otherwise you
lose trust.
You know if you're one personin one conversation and behind
closed doors or whatever, andthen you show up as a different
person.
That erodes trust, becauseyou're like who are you really?
Matt Gerstner (38:38):
Exactly, exactly, and people can tune into that
instantly.
Tricia Eiswald (38:42):
Yeah, you can tell.
You get kind of the vibe thatit's not authentic Totally.
Matt Gerstner (38:48):
I don't think enough people realize that
leaders are developed.
You're not just a born leader.
Kari Shonblom (38:56):
Some people are, some people can be, some people
have some innate qualities andcapabilities.
Matt Gerstner (39:00):
But even they develop those skills over time
and they refine them.
But leaders are absolutelydeveloped and I don't know if
that's necessarily somethingsome companies spend enough time
on.
Right, Especially if they'retrying to develop and promote
from within.
Kari Shonblom (39:14):
Right, and that's why I feel like here I've seen
we've got more hierarchy andmore roles involved in various
different parts of leadership,which I feel like is really
important that you're notburning out any specific
individuals and you're lettingpeople play to their strengths,
which again goes back to one ofthe drivers of engagement,
(39:38):
because I've seen that before,where it's like you have senior
leaders who are wearing too manyhats and they just don't have
time and often, unfortunately,when you're caught between like,
we always refer to principalsnot always, but we sometimes
refer to principals as sellerdoers.
Right, they're out there tryingto make sure that we have solid
(39:58):
client relationships.
We're trying to bring in newprojects.
You have to actually then dothe work.
Matt Gerstner (40:05):
Overseeing teams.
Kari Shonblom (40:07):
Perform that highest level of oversight that
the team needs and only thatleader can provide.
But then, when it comes tothings like staff development or
focusing on, like some of thesebigger initiatives, right, when
we're talking about the outputof the engagement survey, all of
the work from that is overheadextra projects right, it's not
(40:29):
related to the day-to-day clientproject.
So how do you find the time forthat and the resources for that
?
And being able to distributethat workload, I feel like is
part of our success, from whatI've seen, absolutely.
Matt Gerstner (40:44):
So what if you're not in HR or you're not on the
board or you're not in theleadership team?
What can someone do to supportbetter culture and engagement?
Kari Shonblom (40:55):
You can lead from any position, matt, any role in
the company.
You can serve as a sort ofleader and, like we talked about
, I think one of the biggestcultural elements is bringing
people together to help them getto know each other.
So, even if you're the new hire, try to get people together.
Ask people to go out for happyhour, ask people to go out to
(41:16):
lunch.
Just get people talking to eachother and not isolated in their
own world in front of theircomputer.
Matt Gerstner (41:28):
Yeah, that's elements of culture and
engagement just within yourproject teams too, in the
different roles that each of usplay.
Even if you're the personworking on details and you don't
necessarily feel like you have,if you're not higher up in the
food chain on your team, you canstill lead in what you're doing
(41:50):
.
You can still lead indeveloping those details and
then calling people together andsaying, hey, take a look at
this with me, would you?
I'm having a hard time figuringthis part out and that shows
engagement.
That shows you know developingculture and being able to bring
people together even on thoselittle work tasks.
Tricia Eiswald (42:10):
Absolutely Cause .
Then what ends up happening isthat level of engagement in
every seat is the whole point ofthis right.
So the why behind this is thatit actually helps your bottom
line because all of youremployees are more engaged in
what they're doing, so they'rebringing their best, they're
bringing their ideas, they'rebringing their full selves and
(42:32):
that's where you really get thebest product, that's where you
get the best output, whereyou're playing to everyone's
strengths and they are feelinglike they're trusted to do what
role that they have.
They are trusted to have ideasthat are innovative and
risk-taking a little bit.
They're encouraged to own itand, yep, take it and do it.
(42:53):
You just run with it.
That's why you need theengagement, because in the end,
our clients get better output.
We get happier, more engaged,more satisfied employees who
want to be in it for the longhaul and want to keep playing in
that space, want to keepenjoying the culture together
and doing great work together,because they feel trusted and
(43:16):
they feel like they have agencyto do what they need to do
within their seat.
To right To make it better.
Kari Shonblom (43:23):
But also I'm going to turn this again back
around on leadership.
That leadership here is reallycultivating a culture of making
sure people feel safe to voicetheir opinions yeah good point.
Or I've seen this as well.
If somebody didn't quite dosomething, I don't want to say
they made a mistake, but if theydidn't quite do something to
(43:43):
the expectation maybe ofsomebody that was more
experienced, we don't say Ican't believe you didn't know
that.
Or like reprimand the person ormake them feel bad.
I've seen this multiple times,where the senior leader is
saying hey, this is a growingopportunity for you, this is a
learning opportunity and also,if you didn't know that, I bet
(44:04):
there's a handful of otherpeople who also don't know this.
So let's put together some sortof training or learning session
around this to make sure thatyou understand the expectations
for this particular task, and sodoes everyone else, and now
we've got some sort of artifactthat is also searchable.
So if this comes up again, asenior leader or somebody else
(44:25):
can say hey, go watch this 10minute video.
Tricia Eiswald (44:27):
You'll learn a lot.
Kari Shonblom (44:29):
This will answer a lot of your questions.
It's always in the context ofit's okay, like we can fix this,
you can get better.
Tricia Eiswald (44:37):
We can all get better.
There's a lot of grace thereand just wanting to help,
support each other to get to thebest resolution, best outcome,
and I feel like in the long runit makes us more efficient
because people aren't quietlyexecuting tasks for fear that
they will be called out orhiding mistakes.
Kari Shonblom (44:56):
They're more likely to ask questions earlier
in the process before it becomesa problem.
I think that's a big deal.
Matt Gerstner (45:04):
That's huge.
That's huge.
So, in the big picture, we'vetalked a lot about engagement
and developing your culture andmaking things better, and I'm
guessing a lot of our listenersmight be thinking, okay, that's
great, that's how we do it inthe office.
So how does work from home playinto this conversation then?
Tricia Eiswald (45:24):
Yeah, the work from home has made it just a
little bit harder.
I would say you have to be moreintentional in order to create
the same level of engagement.
Because, as we've talked about,gathering really does build
trust and you get to developrelationships and sort of hit
fast forward on developingconnections with people.
(45:44):
When you're spread out and whenyou're kind of all over the
place, you need to be moreintentional for those things to
happen and that's part of thereason why we bring folks
together twice a year.
You know we really need thatcollaboration, that trust
building.
So it takes more intentionalitywith it, but it can be done.
(46:07):
So that's what I wouldencourage every other firm who
is looking at this and thinkingthrough it is don't take the
easy button route.
Don't just say, well, it iswhat it is.
You know, let's force everyoneback to the office so we can
have our culture again.
Get a little creative andinnovative on how can you solve
that?
How can you meet folks part waywho are, you know, hours and
(46:31):
hours in other states and allthat?
How do they experience ourculture now?
Well, one, we bring them andgather.
Two, we intentionally do firm,wide connection events where
we'll have an online Zoom, whereit's a happy hour or a lunch or
a breakfast meeting and it's 15minutes, sort of over break
time, but somebody leads it andit's a happy hour or a lunch or
a breakfast meeting, and it's 15minutes sort of over break time
, but somebody leads it and it'sfor everyone, and everyone can
(46:56):
get on one zoom screen and feellike they're in the same sort of
room for a little bit andconnect and just talk.
So but that doesn't just happen.
You have to be intentional andcreative and be willing to think
outside the box in our newhybrid environment.
Kari Shonblom (47:14):
Yeah, I feel like so often companies are saying
come back to the office.
That's where the culturehappens, thinking it's just
going to happen innately.
Right, like people are going tohave this magical water cooler.
Talk Right as friends just bysitting in the office.
Tricia Eiswald (47:29):
Yeah, it just doesn't happen.
It doesn't takes a strongintention to build relationships
and help folks collaborate andI think it takes an honest
intention absolutely to build it.
It can't be fabricated, or yeah, it has to be genuine and
authentic.
That's right.
Kari Shonblom (47:49):
Absolutely.
And I'll add, we have veryclear expectations about
communication channels rightwhich avenues like, for example,
we don't necessarily chat onZoom.
We save all of that for Teamsright, so people aren't confused
and split their attentionbetween multiple different tools
.
We've tried to consolidate thatas best we can.
(48:10):
We also have a culture ofcamera on yep for when we have
meetings, except for, like theall staff meetings it's a very
large meeting.
Matt Gerstner (48:20):
You get over 50 100 people.
Kari Shonblom (48:22):
Yeah, I see everyone's face on the screen
anyway but if it's a smallermeeting, we ask people to turn
on their cameras just becauseyou can see all the body
language and get contextual cues.
It helps people to stayaccountable to paying attention
during that and not multitaskand be caught up in email or
other things, and we've investedin the technology to make sure
(48:43):
that we can host all events in ahybrid fashion, so there's an
in-person and virtual componentand it works pretty seamlessly
that way.
Matt Gerstner (48:52):
Everyone can always be included, yeah Well
that was some fantasticinformation you've all given me
today.
I really appreciate thisconversation and I've taken more
than enough of your time today,so thank you both for joining
us.
Tricia Eiswald (49:04):
Thank you, Matt.
Thanks for having us.
It's been a pleasure.
Matt Gerstner (49:08):
This has been side of design from BWBR brought
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Email us at side of design atbwbrcom.
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast
discussing all aspects of designwith knowledge leaders from
every part of the industry.
Hello and welcome to Side ofDesign from BWBR.
I'm your host, Matt Gerstner.
On this episode, we'll bedigging into employee engagement
.
In a competitively remarked andduring a time of huge change to
the norms and expectations ofwork, it's more important than
(00:23):
ever for organizations tounderstand how their employees
view their culture and takepractical action from those
insights to continue to grow andevolve.
Joining us from BWBR are TriciaEiswald, Director of People and
Culture, and Carrie Schonblum,Knowledge Manager, who will be
digging into some of thematerial they shared at the 2024
(00:43):
AIA Conference on Architectureand Design.
Tricia, Carrie, thank you somuch for joining me today.
Tricia Eiswald (00:48):
Thanks so much for having us, Matt.
Thank you.
Matt Gerstner (00:51):
I'm just going to jump right into the questions
here and get going so we can getsome information out to all of
our listeners.
So just for quick context whatdo we mean by employee
engagement and why is it soimportant?
What do we mean by employeeengagement and why is it so
important?
Kari Shonblom (01:05):
So we've decided to use the Gallup definition of
this, because Gallup is a leaderin this space.
They've done a lot of workaround this, so why not just use
what they have already produced?
So the Gallup definition is theinvolvement and enthusiasm of
employees in their work andworkplace, and this is not to be
(01:28):
confused with happiness that'sa byproduct of engagement.
And it's also not to beconfused with satisfaction,
which can be more transactional.
If you're simply satisfied withsomething, you're not going the
extra mile, you're not reallycommitted to it.
If that makes sense and it'simportant because, as Gallup has
proven, engaged employees areinvested more in their work and
(01:51):
the outcomes and it shows inmeasurable ways like increased
customer loyalty and engagement,increased productivity,
increase in employee well-being,in company profitability and
also, to be noted, there's adecrease in things like
absenteeism and attrition.
(02:12):
Okay, some of the drivers ofengagement that we use to sort
of frame this and why it'simportant things that we keep
referring back to.
There's five main driverspurpose having a feeling like
your work is meaningful, it'scontributing to something
greater than yourself, orsomething that you believe in
Opportunities for development,having a sense of control over
(02:35):
your own career path and how youwant to learn and grow, having
a caring manager, somebody who'san advocate for you, because
they're the person that's goingto be, hopefully, your champion
in helping you to achieve thosedevelopment goals.
Ongoing conversations we'lltouch back on this but having
some clarity around what you'reexpected to do and how you're
(02:57):
expected to meet goals and howyou're expected to achieve those
development goals you've setfor yourself is having frequent
dialogue between yourself andyour manager or between
leadership and staff, like that.
Transparency is so importanthere.
I think we'll touch on thissome more, but I found that to
be one of the biggest factors inmy own engagement is I never
(03:20):
have to question what's going onor feel like I'm in the dark.
Right, I feel like it's alwaysvery well communicated and
leadership does a great jobsharing what they can, even if
something's a work in progress.
The final driver of engagementis a focus on strengths and in
my world of knowledge management, we celebrate what we know.
(03:41):
That's the whole point ofknowledge management is caring
about the expertise we have inhouse, because we don't sell a
product on a shelf.
We're selling our people andwhat we know.
So focusing on people'sstrengths and allowing them to
showcase that and help otherpeople learn the same thing and
upskill Like, I think that'ssuch a cornerstone of our
(04:02):
culture here.
Matt Gerstner (04:03):
That's kind of funny because I think I've heard
a lot of those individualdrivers not all of them, but
I've heard a lot of them talkedabout in different publications
and different articles you know,just the employee satisfaction
the feeling of well-being.
Yes, All of those things I'veread about in different articles
related to culture, related toengagement.
Kari Shonblom (04:24):
Yeah, and it's such a complex, complicated
thing, right, but when you startweaving it all together, I feel
like that's where we have had alot of success and I know I'm
newer to the company but I'mlike fully on board and in on
B2BBR because of these things,like I've been other places and
this just feels different.
(04:45):
Okay, it feels good.
Matt Gerstner (04:47):
So, as a newer employee to the firm, you have
sensed all of these drivers.
Kari Shonblom (04:52):
I have yeah.
Fantastic Like in a reallypositive way.
Tricia Eiswald (04:56):
That's really good to hear.
That's very good to hear.
Matt Gerstner (04:59):
So can you walk us through some of the
highlights, then, of BWBR's mostrecent survey results and the
stats and put them kind of inindustry context?
Tricia Eiswald (05:09):
Absolutely yeah, I'm excited to, actually,
because in 2022, we had reallypositive results where we had I
believe it was 81% of folksresponded, and in 2023, our most
recent one we had 91% of ouremployees respond to the survey.
So that is actually almosttwice the national average for
(05:31):
participation.
So we're doing something righthere in terms of getting folks
to respond to the engagementsurvey to tell us how engaged
they are.
Matt Gerstner (05:41):
That's just stunning that it's twice the
national average age they are.
That's.
That's a stunning that it'stwice the national average.
That's.
I think it says a lot about thepeople here and the company and
how it, how everybody reallyfeels if you can get that many
people to actually take a survey.
Tricia Eiswald (05:55):
Right, I agree, Especially one that you redo
annually.
You do it once a year.
You know it's year over yearit's keeps ticking up in the
right direction.
So it's been positive.
Kari Shonblom (06:05):
Right, and it's not like we had to sit in front
of each person and ask them tofill it out Right.
Twist their arm it was just viaour standard communication
channels, which goes to showthat people are paying attention
to those Right.
I think that's important.
Matt Gerstner (06:18):
I'd say that's another sign of engagement.
Right People are really payingattention to every one of those
channels.
Kari Shonblom (06:23):
I would tie that back to those ongoing
conversations.
It's the communication channels, how information is being
disseminated throughout the firm.
If people know that it's notjust noise, it's pertinent and
relevant to them, so they do payattention.
Matt Gerstner (06:38):
That's fantastic.
So what are some of the aspectsof BWBR's history and culture,
then, that have contributed toour current high levels of
engagement?
Tricia Eiswald (06:48):
Sure, I can start with a couple of points.
I would say the fact that weput people first, not only on
the wall right in our mission,vision and values, we actually
walk out putting people first,walk out, putting people first.
So in every decision that we'remaking at the people and
(07:08):
culture team and the board atthe leadership level, we are
thinking with a lens of how doesthis impact our folks?
How does this impact our people?
In order to demonstrate that wehave a people first culture,
it's important to havetransparency.
So, as Carrie alluded to, wehave to be open and honest about
what's going on in the business, what's going on in the markets
(07:28):
, what's going on in the economy.
And I think that's one thingthat we've done really well with
over the years is since we putpeople first.
One of the best ways to buildtrust is to be open and honest
about what's going on, and we dothat as much as we possibly can
.
So we try to be transparent, wetry to make sure that people
(07:49):
know what kind of big thingswe're trying to work on and peel
back the curtain a little bitto the inner workings of the
business a little bit more, sopeople feel like they can come
along on the journey, versus.
This is how these decisions aregoing to impact you eventually.
They're along for the journey.
(08:09):
They're along for hearingwhat's going on and seeing the
change and being bought into itall along, so they can be
advocates and champions, and soI think that's one thing that's
a little bit different.
Some other cultures andorganizations that I've been in
previously have held it kind ofclose to the vest, where they
have a little bit different.
Some other cultures andorganizations that I've been in
previously have held it kind ofclose to the vest, where they
have a lot of information.
(08:29):
There's a lot going on at thecompany, but that isn't
disseminated to all staff.
So there's only certain pocketsof people that are in the know,
if you will, and everyone elseis just sort of guessing and
making up their own storiesabout what might be going on,
and that is just breeding groundfor gossip.
Matt Gerstner (08:49):
Exactly, gossip just erodes your credibility.
Kari Shonblom (08:53):
It erodes people's engagement.
It erodes their desire to wantto contribute to something if
they feel like they're notreally part of it.
Yeah, exactly.
Tricia Eiswald (09:04):
One of the other points I would say is we've
always had an open-door policy.
So with this new, remote, kindof distant world, you still can
feel the open-door-ness of ourculture.
So you can walk up to ourpresident, ceo, who's in one
corner or the other of theoffice, and literally just walk
(09:27):
up and ask a question, say, Ihave an idea, hey, what do you
think about this?
And there's an openness andthere's an invitation for a
conversation.
Yeah, she might be busy and shemight have to say, hey, could
you set up something in 15minutes.
And that goes for not just thepresident, ceo, but every other
leader in the office.
I feel like it's prettyapproachable and is willing to
(09:51):
and open to ideas.
And that makes every oneindividual who comes up and has
an idea or a thought if youlisten to them and hear them and
then take the next step of likeactioning whatever their idea
was, that builds trust and itmakes us all better.
So why wouldn't we have an opendoor and be transparent as much
(10:13):
as we possibly can?
Matt Gerstner (10:15):
Yeah.
Kari Shonblom (10:15):
And I'll say from my perspective, this is not
just lip service Like from dayone.
Trish, I hope you don't mind ifI share this, but you shared
internally it was at a meetingabout equity and involvement
with employees.
You shared that you had areally negative experience with
an HR director early in yourcareer and you said you made it
your mission that you would makesure no one else ever felt that
(10:38):
way and I felt it from day one.
I remember being toured aroundthe office.
You had just come in.
You had been out on PTO orsomething.
You came in.
You made a point to come andsay hello to me and introduce
yourself.
I've seen you be so hospitableand go out of your way to make
sure you know everybody's name,know some information about them
(10:58):
as a person, not just theirrole, but like something they're
interested in or what they'redoing sort of on the side.
Like you care about the peoplethat you work with and I feel
like as a senior leader, assomeone on our board, you set
that tone for the otherleadership.
I feel like that's so impactfulthat all of you leaders help,
(11:19):
sort of like encourage eachother in certain behaviors and
keep each other in check and itjust transitions down throughout
the rest of the firm.
It's really felt is what I'mtrying to say.
Tricia Eiswald (11:31):
Oh, thank you for that.
It's a hard balance in thedirector role because you do
have to balance what's best forthe firm and what's best for
people and when we put peoplefirst, it's a tough spot to be
in when you're like, okay, theperson over here needs this and
is struggling, the businessneeds this.
How do we blend and advocatefor both?
(11:52):
And that's where I do think ourleadership genuinely cares and
I really appreciate hearing thatyou feel that, because I think
it's not just me, you know, it'severy leader here, like you
said, and I hope that peoplefeel that.
I hope that when people come in,it's not that they're sold a.
Hey, we're caring, we'reempathetic, we're, you know,
(12:15):
trusting.
Yeah, we're a family oh, neveruse that term.
Right?
I hope people feel that becauseit is the intent, that's the
spirit, my personal mantras, youknow, making sure everyone
feels valued, appreciated andsupported.
Because of the history that Ihave in bringing forward, to the
fact that I don't want anyoneever to feel what I felt in a
(12:38):
seat at one point in my careerand have made it my mission as
the people and culture person tocare genuinely about people,
and I think all of our leadersdo and everyone we hire is
really along that same lines.
In alignment with that, peoplefirst approach.
Matt Gerstner (12:57):
Now I know I've heard a few times from different
co-workers that it's especiallythe newer with the coworkers
that they're somewhat amazedsometimes at how accessible
leadership is here.
Kari Shonblom (13:12):
It's a good thing , it's a real good thing.
Like you said, defining thatbalance of what's good for the
business and the person.
I've seen you and our otherleadership have to deliver hard
messages.
Matt Gerstner (13:26):
Yes.
Kari Shonblom (13:26):
But you always back it up with the business
decision and even if peopledon't like it, we can at least
respect the fact that you'regiving us data and information
about why the decision was made,so we can at least feel like it
wasn't arbitrary.
Tricia Eiswald (13:41):
Absolutely.
We want to give you enoughcontext and information that you
know it tells as much of thestory as we possibly can.
There are some things, aseveryone knows, in people and
culture that you just can't say.
So we try to come up with youknow what is appropriate and
what is the most transparentapproach that everybody can be
on the same page and then changemanagement is hard, you know.
(14:04):
So you have to figure out howto navigate and communicate
properly and then when's theright timing to kind of push
forward, and it is tricky and itis a balance.
So I'm happy to hear that youfeel that and that you're seeing
the information getdisseminated to the firm.
Kari Shonblom (14:21):
When we're talking about our culture.
I think it's really importantto note that, like I said, we
have solid communicationchannels, but we also have
avenues, like our town hall,which typically, if we have a
big communication, we'll postsomething on our intranet, we'll
mention it at a staff meetingwhich happens monthly and then
(14:45):
we will have a town hall aboutbig events, big changes, big
things that need to be discussed, and that's a chance for people
to submit anonymous questions,and leadership does to the best
of their ability, from what I'veseen, addresses all the
questions that come in.
Absolutely, even if, like yousaid, you can't share everything
, you share what you can.
(15:06):
I've seen leadership say youknow we're still looking into
this.
This is still a point ofdiscussion.
We don't have an answer quiteyet, right, but we are
considering these various thingswhen making our decision and
we'll report back once we'velanded on something.
And I think that's reallyimportant to make sure that
people feel like they're heard.
Tricia Eiswald (15:25):
Absolutely that Poll Everywhere tool that we use
during the town hall, settingit up a week in advance, you
know, and giving people ananonymous opportunity not to
mention you don't even have toput your name in you know
anonymous opportunity to say orask anything and we sit and
answer them on the fly in thehot seat.
(15:46):
But it's one of the things thatI appreciate most, even though
it's hard to not know what'sgoing to come out, because it
could be about anything.
But we're honestly wanting toget feedback and input and
communicate as transparently aspossible.
So, like you said, we can'talways answer everything in
(16:06):
depth, but we'll do our best toprovide answers to whatever's
being asked and that's an hourlong.
Kari Shonblom (16:14):
Meeting typically happens four to six times a
year and we get really highparticipation in those Don't we
the majority.
The people attend in person orvirtually yeah.
Matt Gerstner (16:26):
And then the fact that we do record those make
them available after the fact,in-house only, and any staff
that did miss it can still catchup and still see.
You know all the informationthat was presented, hear the
questions that were asked, yeah.
And then they have theopportunity then later on to
maybe approach leadership, whois presenting at that, and ask
(16:47):
another question if they sochoose.
Or they could submit it at thenext town hall anonymously if
they want to make sure thattheir voice is still heard but
don't quite feel like they wantto put their face out there for
it.
Tricia Eiswald (16:58):
Yes, yep.
Matt Gerstner (16:59):
So I'm going to ask a weird question.
So what kind of questions gointo this survey that you've
talked about that go out to thestaff and try to gauge the
engagement.
Tricia Eiswald (17:11):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So 75%, I would say, of thesurvey remains the same from
each time we do it.
We initially started with hey.
When we started this about fiveyears ago, we literally went
out to Gallup.
You know, carrie, read thedefinition of engagement from
Gallup they are survey companyextraordinaire.
So we literally went okay,let's Google, you know where do
(17:34):
we start, and got some samplequestions.
A lot of it is aroundwell-being, you know.
Do you feel like you arechallenged in your role?
Do you feel like you haveautonomy?
Do you feel like you aretrusted?
Things like that that reallyget at.
What is your employeeexperience?
You know?
Give us more details about that.
(17:55):
What's it like to sit in yourseat?
And then, what we do with theother quarters.
We pick whatever might be goingon at the moment, either in the
climate, in the environment, inthe office, in the whatever.
If there's some specific issueor topic that we need to dig
into a little bit, that's whatwe use the other quarter for.
(18:16):
So three quarters will remainthe same.
People get used to filling outthe same things, and then
there's a bit of a pulse checkfor whatever might be going on
Excellent, excellent.
Kari Shonblom (18:27):
And I appreciate that there's the you answer a
question right on a scale or yesor no, or whatever it might be.
But then there's in severalplaces the opportunity for open
comment to get some moreclarification about that.
And I've heard you say you readall of those Absolutely.
Every word you try to providefeedback, like when you're
regurgitating the results backto the rest of the firm.
(18:49):
You're trying to bucket all ofthose responses into some way so
every single person can feellike their responses are seen
and heard as part of the results.
Tricia Eiswald (19:00):
Yes, that's the challenge of it is making sure
that when you get the results,you have to.
There's a few key things aroundthe engagement survey to
remember.
One if you're going to do anengagement survey and I highly
encourage folks to do it,whether it's five questions or
25, you know, whatever fits yourorganization, I highly
(19:22):
encourage you to do it.
But only if you are ready andwilling to take action on the
results.
Because if you're askingquestions that you're like, well
, if it comes back in thisdirection doesn't matter,
because we're not changing thendon't ask, Don't do the survey,
don't ask the questions ifyou're not willing to take
(19:42):
action on the responses.
So that would be one key tip.
The second one would be you haveto be willing to take action
quickly.
You can't get the surveyresults and say yeah, yeah, yeah
, we'll do that in three years.
That won't fly.
People will not fill out thesecond engagement survey.
They will say I've said mypiece, I have used my voice,
(20:05):
you've heard my comment, nothinghas changed.
So then guess what?
When the next engagement surveycomes around, they're probably
not as inclined to do it becausenothing happened as a result of
the first one.
So you have to be willing totake action, and take action
quickly on what you find out.
The third tip that I would sayif you're doing this is Carrie
(20:26):
alluded to the buckets of themessaging.
So when you get all of thecomments in, if you can distill
it down to a few key themes, butmake sure you're giving enough
information that everyone cansee their voice in the themes.
So if some individual said youknow, I'm really fed up the fact
(20:47):
that there's not this type ofcoffee in your office in one of
our offices.
If somebody is really distraughton any one particular issue, if
they don't see that reflectedin the feedback or the themes
anywhere, they're going to startto wonder about how the results
were maybe skewed or the lensto which they're being delivered
(21:11):
.
Matt Gerstner (21:12):
How was it filtered Exactly?
Tricia Eiswald (21:13):
They're not going to trust the results.
Matt Gerstner (21:15):
Right.
Tricia Eiswald (21:15):
So you have to make sure that you don't need to
put in you can't there's notroom for every little comment
but make sure you're capturingenough of the theme buckets so
that everyone can see themselvesin the feedback Right and not
sugarcoating.
Exactly, that's reallyimportant too.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a really fun process,honestly, and I look forward to
(21:39):
getting the results every year,kind of with one eye closed you
know, it's always a little bitof a Ooh.
It's kind of like a performancereview for the leadership team
and the board.
Yeah, that's what it feels likeCause, you get all of your
results back from your reviewand you need to act on them and
you need to you know, I can seehow easily this, like sending
(22:02):
out a survey, could go south.
Absolutely.
Matt Gerstner (22:05):
If you're not willing, like you said, to take
the information and do somethingwith it right away.
Tricia Eiswald (22:10):
Yeah and be honest about the results.
Yes, you have to have somevulnerability in there.
If you see feedback that makesyou a little prickly, you need
to deliver it anyway becauseit's honest.
Matt Gerstner (22:20):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Kari Shonblom (22:22):
Because, even though, as a leader, you may not
have known that that type ofresponse was coming in, I can
guarantee that the gossip andeverything that's happening, the
undercurrents throughout thecompany, people know this stuff
innately anyway.
Exactly so why not bring it tothe surface, where you can do
something about it, right?
Tricia Eiswald (22:43):
The fact that 91% of the office is willing to
share that with us.
That's huge.
Yeah that we really take thatas an encouraging sign that
we're moving in the rightdirection.
Matt Gerstner (22:55):
Yeah, love it, absolutely love it.
Can you speak to the realitiesof the investment needed, so
both in the survey itself and inthe resulting action items, and
then like the return on thatinvestment that you've seen?
Tricia Eiswald (23:08):
Sure.
So in terms of putting ittogether, in terms of an
investment, of creating theactual survey, it doesn't take
that long.
The first one took a little bitlonger and I would say a few
hours, right.
So a few hours to come up withthe first one that we did and
then get a little bit of a pulsefor the other quarter of the
(23:30):
questions Subsequent years whenwe do it year over year.
If 75% stays the same,obviously the investment shrinks
through time and it's just alittle bit of editing.
You know, it's a little bit ofwhat's the current topic, what
are we curious about right now,and then change up those few
questions and then that's prettymuch it in terms of.
(23:52):
And then there's an investmenton the reading, the comments
side.
So there's a manual, you know,actual person investment
processing it through andgetting reading and sorting and
bucketing all of the feedback.
Kari Shonblom (24:06):
The investment to actually do the survey is
pretty minimal.
Yeah, you know it's coming upwith questions, it's finding a
survey tool.
I think it's important that youallow people to submit their
response anonymously.
Tricia Eiswald (24:18):
Yes, right, so feel free to express anonymously
yes.
Kari Shonblom (24:20):
Right, that's always huge.
They feel free to expresswhatever opinions.
Yes, and we do not ask anyqualifiers about their role or
what office they're in.
Tricia Eiswald (24:27):
Exactly.
Kari Shonblom (24:28):
Anything like that that could tie their
response to that specificindividual Right.
Matt Gerstner (24:33):
Making it truly anonymous.
Kari Shonblom (24:34):
Truly anonymous and like really a safe place to
share your voice honestly, whichis huge.
Yeah, like really a safe placeto share your voice on, which is
huge, yeah.
So I think underpinning this isthat cultural element that we
want to hear constructivefeedback so that we can make
improvements.
Because it's that old adage youcan't manage what you don't
(24:54):
measure.
Yeah, absolutely.
So having points like realpoints to look back on and say,
okay, this is what we're goingto focus on, here's how we're
going to do it.
I think we also have a reallystrong planning process here,
like planning and budgeting anannual cycle of that and robust
communication and the leadershipgroups to make sure that action
(25:18):
is taken.
The way our organization isstructured, we have the board of
directors, we've got principals, business unit directors, we've
got key managers so thisaccountability and
responsibility gets dispersedand I think that's really
critical to not overburden anyone person or particular group.
(25:40):
And I think that really playsinto so I'm at the key manager
level right.
That plays into my engagementwhen I'm told I own something
and I have some autonomy overhow I'm executing that.
If it falls into my world andI'm ultimately responsible for
it, that's huge Then that I canrun with it and have some leeway
on how that gets defined andexecuted.
(26:03):
Obviously, it's being likecycled up through the levels of
leadership and make sure thateveryone's on board and everyone
approves and it aligns with theoverall firm goals.
But I think those are reallykey, critical things to have in
place.
Yes, definitely, some some wayof taking action on the results
right, you need to be able toidentify the priorities, have
the people, you need to make aplan and then take action on it
(26:26):
and make sure that you're smartabout how you're budgeting.
Yeah, absolutely, because someof the things we invest in,
we've been questioned.
I remember hearing this at thetown hall some of our social
events Right, things like that.
People questioned why are westill having lunches for
everyone every week at our eatand greet?
Tricia Eiswald (26:47):
Because that's part of our culture, is our
response.
So, as a result of some of thesurvey results through the years
, we have incorporated thingslike that.
So we have an eat and greet onThursdays where we have lunch
for everyone.
If you want to come to one ofour offices, well you know
everybody has lunch, but thedeal is you need to sit there
(27:08):
and interact with colleagues andit is called eat and greet for
a reason.
We've also done in this wholeremote environment and distant
and hybrid working.
One of the other things that wefeel is key to our culture is
gathering, so bringing folkstogether at least twice a year.
(27:29):
So we have done that now overthe past two years at least, and
over last year we were remindedsignificantly at the winter
party of how important it was togather at least a couple of
times a year.
Everyone from all offices, anyhouses or wherever they might be
(27:49):
, comes to one of our locationstwice a year, and that is where
we build trust, we havecollaboration, we have fun
together.
We might have different teams,have different meetings and
things.
So those in terms of investment, when we're talking about
engagement survey, the actualsurvey itself isn't necessarily
(28:10):
what costs you.
Let's say it's kind of theaction, steps and things that
you take as a result.
And if you look at just to giveother firms an indication the
social things that we puttogether, our budget, the social
aspect is 0.003% of our overalloperating budget.
(28:30):
So just to give you anindication of the scale of our
investment in sort of culturalthings, it's 0.003%, so not huge
but very important.
Matt Gerstner (28:42):
Yeah, I was going to say it's not huge, but it's
huge.
Tricia Eiswald (28:45):
Right.
Matt Gerstner (28:45):
Because it's huge in that we do get together
twice a year fully as a company.
And we have other little eventsscheduled throughout the year
that are part of that budget,and you've got the eat and
greets on Thursdays and there'sall these little different
things, but those are the thingsthat really make it.
Tricia Eiswald (29:07):
Right, and we do this one other really fun event
annually called BWBRU, and it'sintended to be just firm
knowledge but really the valueof it.
So we take 50 people, 50colleagues, from our St Paul
office and we drive them upnorth, take them up to a resort
in northern Minnesota and wespend about a day.
(29:30):
It's literally about 24 hourstotal, but we bus everyone up
together.
We've got team collaboratingevents, we've got a scavenger
hunt when we're there and thewhole point is gathering but
also making our business better.
So we do a couple of businesscontent sessions where we might
(29:51):
brainstorm a topic and get ideasfrom everyone who's there.
But we also just play and thatis a significant contributor to
our overall culture and bringingpeople from other locations,
environments, who may not workphysically together and with
each other, but the fact thatthey can, at least a couple of
(30:13):
times a year, at our springevent and our winter event,
gather and develop trust andrelationships and then we do
this one thing a year thatrotates through people attending
, that's really fun.
Matt Gerstner (30:25):
It's just fun.
I've heard nothing but goodthings.
Tricia Eiswald (30:29):
And.
Matt Gerstner (30:29):
I participated in it several years ago, which was
fantastic.
Kari Shonblom (30:32):
I got to go my first year and it was so
invaluable in terms of gettingto know people because I'd only
been with the firm for sixmonths.
At this point I'd hardly had achance to get to know most
people, and we bring people fromall offices or remote locations
.
We just depart from the St Pauloffice.
It's not only employees from ourSt Paul office and the time it
(30:56):
would have taken to establishsome of the relationships I made
just in casual happenstance andin opportunities to work with
people.
It would have taken years,versus what was accomplished in
two days.
Matt Gerstner (31:10):
Because there's elements of it that are
work-oriented, but it's allwrapped in fun.
It's all wrapped in getting toknow each other.
It's all wrapped in workingRight.
It's all wrapped in getting toknow each other.
It's all wrapped in workingtogether Right, in a fun way,
right.
Kari Shonblom (31:23):
From my perspective, the world of
knowledge management, which isreally about, like I said,
caring about what we knowcollectively, finding ways to
identify that, collect it andamplify it.
You only share what you knowwith who you know.
Matt Gerstner (31:39):
Yes.
Kari Shonblom (31:40):
You need to have that element of trust because
it's a little bit vulnerable toput something out there to say,
hey, I know this really awesome,cool thing.
Yes.
Tricia Eiswald (31:46):
I think it's really smart.
Kari Shonblom (31:48):
I hope you think it's really smart.
Yeah, awesome too, yeah, sohaving these social interactions
is critical for people gettingto know each other on a personal
level.
Tricia Eiswald (31:58):
Absolutely.
Kari Shonblom (31:58):
So you have that level of comfort you for people
getting to know each other on apersonal level Absolutely.
So you have that level ofcomfort.
You understand how the personlikes to communicate, there's a
sense of camaraderie.
Yeah, then, like we're togetherworking on a team.
Right, we're in it together forcollective success.
And I heard Larry Prusak is avery like well-known and
(32:19):
accomplished author and lecturerand stuff in the world of
knowledge management is a verywell-known and accomplished
author and lecturer and stuff inthe world of knowledge
management.
He said once bringing peopletogether over food, paying for
their meal is much cheaper thanpaying for their time.
Oh, absolutely yeah, so he feltlike the best knowledge
management happens over food andaround food Interesting, so the
things like the eat and greet,because the expectation is that
you don't just grab your foodand go back to your desk and
(32:40):
squirrel it away inside.
Right by yourself.
You're getting to know people,yeah, and that all contributes
to this culture of like we knoweach other.
Therefore, I feel comfortablesharing what I know with you.
Yes, and I think it's a reallynice like cornerstone of BWB are
that?
I feel like deeply when I seesome of the things we have going
(33:02):
on here that people love tolearn here and it's very
celebrated we don't have theexperts that are hiding in the
corner trying to hold on totheir knowledge because it feels
like it gives them job security.
Right, we definitely celebratepeople for sharing what they
know and you're, like, moreelevated if you become the
mentor and you're hostingvarious events internally and
(33:25):
sharing what you know.
You get so much more likeinternal publicity and credit
for that versus I'm the singularexpert.
I'm not going to tell you whatI know, you have to come to me
to extract that and it gives mea sense of value.
That way it's like completelyflipped on its head, which I
really appreciate.
Matt Gerstner (33:45):
It's kind of funny because everybody here is
a knowledge leader in some way.
Everybody has something thatthey know, that someone else
here does not know, right, andthey share it.
Kari Shonblom (33:56):
Yeah, that's true , very true, because we've had
this knowledge managementculture.
Like I'm the only knowledgemanager here, but my job really
is just to steward, like I said,this identification, collection
and amplification of what weknow.
But it's not like I'm doingthis all myself, and we've had
the knowledge management programsince 2007.
(34:17):
So that's a really long time tocontinue to build on this
culture and help peopleunderstand and develop the
programs that support thatculture, like the internal
landmark learning sessions thatwe do.
That's upskilling staff.
Our forum, which is anyone cansay I'm working on this cool
(34:38):
thing or there's a change inprocess and share it with the
rest of the firm, the fact thatwe document all of this stuff
and share it on our very robustintranet so everyone always has
access and can stay informed viathat, and like robust search
capabilities to find exactlywhat you're looking for yes, I
think that's all really, reallyimportant to help people do
(34:59):
their best work yeah, you alwayshave a resource that you can
find the answer oh, whether it'swritten down, or it gives you
the path to find the person toask the question in person and
then, because we've had allthese social events, you maybe
already have interacted withthem so you're not scared to
pick up the phone, or, if youhappen to be in an office, go
(35:20):
swing by their desk, orsomething like that.
Tricia Eiswald (35:22):
Yeah, it's a great point.
Matt Gerstner (35:24):
As a social mentor, because I've mentored at
least a half dozen people inthe office.
Kari Shonblom (35:30):
But even the fact that we have social mentors.
That's baked into ouronboarding, yeah.
Matt Gerstner (35:37):
I mean, one of the first things I tell them is
don't be afraid to ask questions.
Yes, good, you will never belooked down on here for asking a
question and getting somethingdone and getting it done right.
The first time down on here,for asking a question and
getting something done andgetting it done right the first
time, I said and if you have aquestion for me, come and ask me
and I will be.
I will guarantee you that if Iknow the answer, you're going to
get it, and if I don't know theanswer, I probably know someone
(36:00):
who does.
Kari Shonblom (36:01):
Exactly, and I can get you there faster.
Yes, yeah, but even pausing.
What is the expectation of thesocial mentor?
As, as a social mentor, whatare you expected to do?
As a social mentor.
Matt Gerstner (36:11):
You introduce them to the people in the office
.
You show them around, show themwhere resources are.
You take them out for lunch ontheir first day with several
other employees and get themacquainted with people here and
then, in a week or so, afterthey've been here answering
questions, kind of touching inwith them and making sure
everything's going good, takethem out with leadership, yes,
(36:34):
and go out for a lunch and thatkind of thing, and you really
bring them into the fold so theyknow who they can go to.
They know people.
It's not just coming in.
Here's your desk, sit down,here's the manual, get to work.
Tricia Eiswald (36:45):
Right yeah manual get to work Right.
Yeah, I knew the answer, butthat was just a leading.
Matt Gerstner (36:52):
I loved it.
Yeah, did I do good?
You did great.
Kari Shonblom (36:54):
I've never been in the social mentor role, so
yeah, I've done it forperspective.
It's great.
Tricia Eiswald (37:00):
I really appreciated having it when I
started.
Kari Shonblom (37:03):
It was awesome to have somebody baked in that's
like your buddy from the get go.
Matt Gerstner (37:07):
Yeah, it's great, it's fun.
It's fun to be the mentor.
Kari Shonblom (37:11):
Right.
Matt Gerstner (37:12):
So what are some lessons learned or best
practices that you would sharewith other firms that are
looking to increase engagementin a lasting way?
Kari Shonblom (37:21):
I would argue to look at your culture and look at
your senior leadership.
Yes, you know sometimes thebest.
I say this a lot sometimes thebest doers are not the best
leaders.
Matt Gerstner (37:33):
Right.
Kari Shonblom (37:34):
And I think some firms potentially promote folks
that are the best doer inwhatever category they fall into
and maybe aren't trained enoughon the softer skills in terms
of leading people and I've seenthis throughout my entire career
that leadership is sofundamental in setting the tone
(37:54):
for everyone else.
Like I said on our intranet, wehave high engagement on there,
but it's because we haveleadership posting and letting
people know that it's okay tospend time on there.
Sure, at all of our meetingsand events we've got leadership
who are jumping in and providingcontext or leading certain
meetings.
We don't have leadershiptalking out of one side of their
(38:15):
mouth and then showing withtheir actions something else.
Yes, Right.
Tricia Eiswald (38:19):
I feel like that's really critical.
Kari Shonblom (38:20):
I see our leadership like talk the talk
and walk the walk.
Tricia Eiswald (38:24):
That is very critical, yeah, otherwise you
lose trust.
You know if you're one personin one conversation and behind
closed doors or whatever, andthen you show up as a different
person.
That erodes trust, becauseyou're like who are you really?
Matt Gerstner (38:38):
Exactly, exactly, and people can tune into that
instantly.
Tricia Eiswald (38:42):
Yeah, you can tell.
You get kind of the vibe thatit's not authentic Totally.
Matt Gerstner (38:48):
I don't think enough people realize that
leaders are developed.
You're not just a born leader.
Kari Shonblom (38:56):
Some people are, some people can be, some people
have some innate qualities andcapabilities.
Matt Gerstner (39:00):
But even they develop those skills over time
and they refine them.
But leaders are absolutelydeveloped and I don't know if
that's necessarily somethingsome companies spend enough time
on.
Right, Especially if they'retrying to develop and promote
from within.
Kari Shonblom (39:14):
Right, and that's why I feel like here I've seen
we've got more hierarchy andmore roles involved in various
different parts of leadership,which I feel like is really
important that you're notburning out any specific
individuals and you're lettingpeople play to their strengths,
which again goes back to one ofthe drivers of engagement,
(39:38):
because I've seen that before,where it's like you have senior
leaders who are wearing too manyhats and they just don't have
time and often, unfortunately,when you're caught between like,
we always refer to principalsnot always, but we sometimes
refer to principals as sellerdoers.
Right, they're out there tryingto make sure that we have solid
(39:58):
client relationships.
We're trying to bring in newprojects.
You have to actually then dothe work.
Matt Gerstner (40:05):
Overseeing teams.
Kari Shonblom (40:07):
Perform that highest level of oversight that
the team needs and only thatleader can provide.
But then, when it comes tothings like staff development or
focusing on, like some of thesebigger initiatives, right, when
we're talking about the outputof the engagement survey, all of
the work from that is overheadextra projects right, it's not
(40:29):
related to the day-to-day clientproject.
So how do you find the time forthat and the resources for that
?
And being able to distributethat workload, I feel like is
part of our success, from whatI've seen, absolutely.
Matt Gerstner (40:44):
So what if you're not in HR or you're not on the
board or you're not in theleadership team?
What can someone do to supportbetter culture and engagement?
Kari Shonblom (40:55):
You can lead from any position, matt, any role in
the company.
You can serve as a sort ofleader and, like we talked about
, I think one of the biggestcultural elements is bringing
people together to help them getto know each other.
So, even if you're the new hire, try to get people together.
Ask people to go out for happyhour, ask people to go out to
(41:16):
lunch.
Just get people talking to eachother and not isolated in their
own world in front of theircomputer.
Matt Gerstner (41:28):
Yeah, that's elements of culture and
engagement just within yourproject teams too, in the
different roles that each of usplay.
Even if you're the personworking on details and you don't
necessarily feel like you have,if you're not higher up in the
food chain on your team, you canstill lead in what you're doing
(41:50):
.
You can still lead indeveloping those details and
then calling people together andsaying, hey, take a look at
this with me, would you?
I'm having a hard time figuringthis part out and that shows
engagement.
That shows you know developingculture and being able to bring
people together even on thoselittle work tasks.
Tricia Eiswald (42:10):
Absolutely Cause .
Then what ends up happening isthat level of engagement in
every seat is the whole point ofthis right.
So the why behind this is thatit actually helps your bottom
line because all of youremployees are more engaged in
what they're doing, so they'rebringing their best, they're
bringing their ideas, they'rebringing their full selves and
(42:32):
that's where you really get thebest product, that's where you
get the best output, whereyou're playing to everyone's
strengths and they are feelinglike they're trusted to do what
role that they have.
They are trusted to have ideasthat are innovative and
risk-taking a little bit.
They're encouraged to own itand, yep, take it and do it.
(42:53):
You just run with it.
That's why you need theengagement, because in the end,
our clients get better output.
We get happier, more engaged,more satisfied employees who
want to be in it for the longhaul and want to keep playing in
that space, want to keepenjoying the culture together
and doing great work together,because they feel trusted and
(43:16):
they feel like they have agencyto do what they need to do
within their seat.
To right To make it better.
Kari Shonblom (43:23):
But also I'm going to turn this again back
around on leadership.
That leadership here is reallycultivating a culture of making
sure people feel safe to voicetheir opinions yeah good point.
Or I've seen this as well.
If somebody didn't quite dosomething, I don't want to say
they made a mistake, but if theydidn't quite do something to
(43:43):
the expectation maybe ofsomebody that was more
experienced, we don't say Ican't believe you didn't know
that.
Or like reprimand the person ormake them feel bad.
I've seen this multiple times,where the senior leader is
saying hey, this is a growingopportunity for you, this is a
learning opportunity and also,if you didn't know that, I bet
(44:04):
there's a handful of otherpeople who also don't know this.
So let's put together some sortof training or learning session
around this to make sure thatyou understand the expectations
for this particular task, and sodoes everyone else, and now
we've got some sort of artifactthat is also searchable.
So if this comes up again, asenior leader or somebody else
(44:25):
can say hey, go watch this 10minute video.
Tricia Eiswald (44:27):
You'll learn a lot.
Kari Shonblom (44:29):
This will answer a lot of your questions.
It's always in the context ofit's okay, like we can fix this,
you can get better.
Tricia Eiswald (44:37):
We can all get better.
There's a lot of grace thereand just wanting to help,
support each other to get to thebest resolution, best outcome,
and I feel like in the long runit makes us more efficient
because people aren't quietlyexecuting tasks for fear that
they will be called out orhiding mistakes.
Kari Shonblom (44:56):
They're more likely to ask questions earlier
in the process before it becomesa problem.
I think that's a big deal.
Matt Gerstner (45:04):
That's huge.
That's huge.
So, in the big picture, we'vetalked a lot about engagement
and developing your culture andmaking things better, and I'm
guessing a lot of our listenersmight be thinking, okay, that's
great, that's how we do it inthe office.
So how does work from home playinto this conversation then?
Tricia Eiswald (45:24):
Yeah, the work from home has made it just a
little bit harder.
I would say you have to be moreintentional in order to create
the same level of engagement.
Because, as we've talked about,gathering really does build
trust and you get to developrelationships and sort of hit
fast forward on developingconnections with people.
(45:44):
When you're spread out and whenyou're kind of all over the
place, you need to be moreintentional for those things to
happen and that's part of thereason why we bring folks
together twice a year.
You know we really need thatcollaboration, that trust
building.
So it takes more intentionalitywith it, but it can be done.
(46:07):
So that's what I wouldencourage every other firm who
is looking at this and thinkingthrough it is don't take the
easy button route.
Don't just say, well, it iswhat it is.
You know, let's force everyoneback to the office so we can
have our culture again.
Get a little creative andinnovative on how can you solve
that?
How can you meet folks part waywho are, you know, hours and
(46:31):
hours in other states and allthat?
How do they experience ourculture now?
Well, one, we bring them andgather.
Two, we intentionally do firm,wide connection events where
we'll have an online Zoom, whereit's a happy hour or a lunch or
a breakfast meeting and it's 15minutes, sort of over break
time, but somebody leads it andit's a happy hour or a lunch or
a breakfast meeting, and it's 15minutes sort of over break time
, but somebody leads it and it'sfor everyone, and everyone can
(46:56):
get on one zoom screen and feellike they're in the same sort of
room for a little bit andconnect and just talk.
So but that doesn't just happen.
You have to be intentional andcreative and be willing to think
outside the box in our newhybrid environment.
Kari Shonblom (47:14):
Yeah, I feel like so often companies are saying
come back to the office.
That's where the culturehappens, thinking it's just
going to happen innately.
Right, like people are going tohave this magical water cooler.
Talk Right as friends just bysitting in the office.
Tricia Eiswald (47:29):
Yeah, it just doesn't happen.
It doesn't takes a strongintention to build relationships
and help folks collaborate andI think it takes an honest
intention absolutely to build it.
It can't be fabricated, or yeah, it has to be genuine and
authentic.
That's right.
Kari Shonblom (47:49):
Absolutely.
And I'll add, we have veryclear expectations about
communication channels rightwhich avenues like, for example,
we don't necessarily chat onZoom.
We save all of that for Teamsright, so people aren't confused
and split their attentionbetween multiple different tools
.
We've tried to consolidate thatas best we can.
(48:10):
We also have a culture ofcamera on yep for when we have
meetings, except for, like theall staff meetings it's a very
large meeting.
Matt Gerstner (48:20):
You get over 50 100 people.
Kari Shonblom (48:22):
Yeah, I see everyone's face on the screen
anyway but if it's a smallermeeting, we ask people to turn
on their cameras just becauseyou can see all the body
language and get contextual cues.
It helps people to stayaccountable to paying attention
during that and not multitaskand be caught up in email or
other things, and we've investedin the technology to make sure
(48:43):
that we can host all events in ahybrid fashion, so there's an
in-person and virtual componentand it works pretty seamlessly
that way.
Matt Gerstner (48:52):
Everyone can always be included, yeah Well
that was some fantasticinformation you've all given me
today.
I really appreciate thisconversation and I've taken more
than enough of your time today,so thank you both for joining
us.
Tricia Eiswald (49:04):
Thank you, Matt.
Thanks for having us.
It's been a pleasure.
Matt Gerstner (49:08):
This has been side of design from BWBR brought
to you without any paidadvertisements or commercials.
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You can also reach out to us ifyou'd like to share an idea for
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Email us at side of design atbwbrcom.
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