December 2, 2025 • 14 mins
Bringing a building design from concepts and renderings to a completed facility is a complex and technical process. Playing a major part in making it happen is BWBR’s Dan Hottinger, Principal and Professional Services Director, who describes his role as “the bridge between design and putting the design in motion.” In this episode of Side Notes, he shares the latest innovations and challenges he sees facing the AEC industry—and how professional services can help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Gerstner (00:00):
Welcome to Side Notes, the bite-sized version of
Side of Design.
In 15 minutes or less, we'llexplore one idea, one insight,
or one conversation worthhearing.
Let's get to it.
Welcome to Side Notes, thebite-sized version of Side of
Design.
I'm your host, Matt Gerstner.
Joining me today is DanHottinger, Principal and
Professional Services Directorwith BWBR.
(00:21):
We're going to take a closerlook at and define professional
services today.
Dan, thanks for making time tobe here.
Dan Hottinger (00:27):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Matt Gerstner (00:28):
Fantastic.
We're just going to getstarted.
We don't waste any time here.
Could you start by defininglike what professional services
is and how it relates to ourfield specifically?
Dan Hottinger (00:39):
So professional services I like to think of as
the bridge between design andlike putting the design in
motion.
Matt Gerstner (00:46):
Okay.
Dan Hottinger (00:47):
So oftentimes when I'm introducing myself, I
say that professional services,every everything that we do
after we land the project andwork on the design to get it out
in the field and built.
It's specifying everything,it's making, it's mating the
code to the design to make sureeverything works.
It's the constructionadministration out in the field,
it's the documentation of theset itself.
Matt Gerstner (01:08):
Okay.
So I'm sure some of ourlisteners may not be aware, you
know, of how that term fits intoour industry.
So when you're thinking aboutprofessional services then
today, can you tell me whatyou're most excited about in the
design world around that now?
Dan Hottinger (01:24):
So, okay, so you know, in the bridging of the
design and stuff, there's athere are a lot of things that
are coming down the pipelinethat are starting to reach
reality level, right?
Matt Gerstner (01:33):
Okay.
Dan Hottinger (01:34):
Data-driven design.
Matt Gerstner (01:35):
Yeah.
Dan Hottinger (01:35):
Rather than having the experiential, you
know, well, we, we think weexperienced this, we think we
experienced that.
Going into, we actually havethe data to back up and say,
this is the size of the thewaiting room that you need in a
medical situation, because we'veactually went out there and
monitored, and you don't need 50seats, 14 will do.
Matt Gerstner (01:55):
Right.
Dan Hottinger (01:55):
And here's why, here's how we can prove it.
Matt Gerstner (01:57):
Yeah.
Dan Hottinger (01:57):
Um, it's seeing the infancy of AI kind of come
in and and uh it's gonna have amajor effect on our industry.
Matt Gerstner (02:06):
Right.
Dan Hottinger (02:07):
But making sure that it's right, you know,
Matt Gerstner (02:10):
That's a big one.
Dan Hottinger (02:11):
Big one, because you know, I'm sure everybody has
seen AI stuff on the internet,and it's a little weird.
Well, guess what?
It does the same thing to yourdrawing set, and it does the
same thing to your design.
There's some weirdness about itthat we have to iron out.
Yeah.
It's not perfect, but it itwill allow for us to um to maybe
(02:32):
make more durable decisionsearlier so that so that we can
focus on the design once we haveit.
So you know, and a durabledecision is one where we can
inform the decision-makingprocess, and then when we make
the decision, we don't have tocircle back around to it and
come back to it again and againand again because yeah, that
decision is yep, this is what wewant to do, let's move forward.
(02:54):
So there are points where wecan just keep moving forward
rather than having to circleback in the time.
Matt Gerstner (02:59):
Yeah.
No, I ...
yeah, AI has come up innumerous conversations, and it's
it's affecting every industryand every part of every
industry.
And like you said, trying tomake sure that it's doing the
right thing and not just doingsomething that it's unfathomably
creating on its own.
Dan Hottinger (03:16):
Yeah.
You know, and when you combineall these together, it's really
making so that we can uh shape... we're going beyond designing
buildings. We're kind ofshaping the experience, not only
for the client, but for the forthe people the client's trying
to reach.
In medical, it could be thepatients that are coming in the
door, making sure that they feelsafe and connected and secure
(03:37):
and to their you know, to theirmedical providers, it could be
providing an environment thatpeople want to come work in.
You know, nobody wants to go tosome sterile office and sit
under fluorescent lamps anymore.
You know, so it's it's beingable to kind of shape that the
the project to a lot ofdifferent things that just make
it better in the long run.
Matt Gerstner (03:57):
Fantastic.
So when you're thinking aboutwhat's uh what's exciting, what
are the biggest challenges onthe flip side of that then that
you're seeing?
Dan Hottinger (04:06):
AI is a two-sided coin.
Matt Gerstner (04:08):
There it is.
Dan Hottinger (04:10):
AI is a two-sided coin in that um, you know,
there was a day when we used todraw everything, right?
On mylar with ink.
You know, making changes wasjust pull your hair out time.
Oh no, that's too late.
We can't change it now.
Then we went into AutoCAD,we're into BIM now.
And you know, we're already inan environment where people may
think that we just press abutton and the changes are all
(04:31):
made.
Once we get into AI becomingmore uh uh ingrained in some of
that, you know, fighting thenotion that AI is designing
buildings.
AI doesn't have the ability todesign a building.
You know, uh it's it'sinteresting when you when you
read up on it and people willsay that AI is the death of
creativity.
(04:52):
So we still need thatcreativity within our design
group.
You know, it'll help ustranslate and put that into into
motion.
But um it's a two-sided coin.
It's uh, you know, and theproblem is is we also have you
know, you have that AIpracticality, but um we're also
under, you know, we have tighterbudgets, shorter schedules.
(05:15):
We have um very high clientexpectations.
Matt Gerstner (05:19):
I don't doubt it.
Dan Hottinger (05:20):
And you know, all of these in a very
unpredictable climate right now,right?
So we have, you know, we wentfrom 2019, which is kind of
normal, you know, uh, and thenwe went to 2020.
Whoa, new normal.
How are we gonna do this?
You know, we have so manyclients telling us, how are you
gonna do this from a remoteenvironment?
So we had to work through that.
Now, as we're all starting tofilter back into the office,
(05:43):
expectations are a little bitdifferent, but the but the
business climate is veryvolatile.
So it's up, it's down, youknow, you're over budget, you're
under budget.
You know, how could you be sofar under it?
So the outside pressures alongwith the inside pressures are
you know are are creating a lotof swing back and forth on the
on the old pendulum.
Matt Gerstner (06:04):
Okay, okay.
All right.
So thinking about thosechallenges, like what what kind
of solutions do you think wehave for that?
Dan Hottinger (06:15):
Well so the biggest thing is balancing the
project's ambition with thereality. So being able to have a
team that can effectively comein and make sure that that the
project not only re uh reachesthe ambition that the client
wants, while injecting thereality of sustainability, of of
(06:36):
codes, of all of the differentreview processes and just, you
know, um the time to get it doneproperly.
You know, it's uh you have theold adage uh um my dad owned a
repair auto repair shop and heused to have a sign on the wall
that I think fits in thisindustry.
And it has a triangle, and itsaid, cheap, fast, um, thorough,
(06:57):
uh, or good.
And he said, and it the thecaption underneath it was you
can have two of these.
Matt Gerstner (07:02):
Oh, yeah.
Dan Hottinger (07:03):
You know, so and and I I think it fits if you
want it super fast and you know,super cheap, you have to cut
corners somewhere.
So it's
Matt Gerstner (07:12):
Which isn't good for anybody in the long run.
Dan Hottinger (07:13):
so but the expectation is all three.
So we have to we have to marrya lot of that together.
Um, you know, our job isn't uhour job is to make it simpler.
Matt Gerstner (07:25):
Okay.
Dan Hottinger (07:25):
You know, the implementation should be
simpler.
Um we should be able to put alot of the code and a lot of the
sustainability and a lot ofthat kind of stuff in easily
digestible um strategies for ourclients.
And then that way um in the endwe can help them see their
project as successful.
Matt Gerstner (07:45):
So when you're thinking about the challenges
and you're thinking about what'sexciting you, what do you love
about design?
Dan Hottinger (07:53):
Oh my gosh.
So um uh I could I could nerdout on this for the entire 12
minutes. I mean, so there are anumber of things.
I mean, internally, I love theprocess of design.
I love watching our teams, likeour design leads, you know,
sometimes when you watch thempresent and just the way they
(08:15):
can lead you down a path, right?
And and explain the project toyou and really create a passion
around the project.
I find that like amazing.
I love it.
Um, you know, going to themeetings with the client and
challenging their notions.
How many times have you walkedin and and they say, Well, we've
always done it this way, and itworks. Yeah.
(08:37):
But what would make it great?
What would make it work better?
What would, you know, andreally getting them to kind of
think outside of that along withyou. I love that process.
But then also um seeing itbuilt in the field is one of the
greatest things ever, right?
(08:57):
How many times have you like anumber of my projects have been
built in the metro area?
And driving by and seeing thesteel frame, but in your mind's
eye, you know what that buildinglooks like.
You know what it's supposed tobe.
You've seen the renderings.
Right and while everybody wonders about it, you
know what it's gonna look like.
And and later being able towalk through, touch, feel,
(09:18):
smell, experience the wholebuilding is to me, it's it's
amazing.
I was telling my son, uh thatit's like it's like leaving
footprints, you know, whereveryou go.
And these are buildings thatyou can go back to and and
experience, you know, later inyour career as well.
Matt Gerstner (09:35):
Absolutely.
That's yeah, the the that'sthat's one of the things that I
I always comment on too.
Like we live and and work inone of the few creative fields
where not only do you see yourresult, you can enter, you can
experience, you can like becomepart of it and in in in how it's
(09:56):
used.
You know, it's just yeah,there's just so many ways you
can experience architecture.
Dan Hottinger (10:00):
And oftentimes you go into that building during
the grand opening and you getto listen to the people who work
there, or say students who arecoming in, or even like uh, you
know, the the community thatcome in and they talk about oh,
this is amazing.
That is just like the most warmfuzzies you can get.
It's so amazing.
(10:21):
It's it's yeah.
So that's uh it's it's a it'san um yeah, it's an amazing job.
Matt Gerstner (10:27):
Yeah.
So you're thinking about whatyou love about design.
What inspires you in designthen?
Dan Hottinger (10:35):
So working in professional services, right?
I feel like my inspirationmight be different than other
people's.
I'm tasked with finding thenext generation to come in here
and learn how to do it.
And you know, you always haveto start at the bottom and and
you know, with people, teachthem how to put a building
(10:57):
together, teach them how to puttogether a drawing set, work
them into client-facingpositions and things like that.
I find the people who arecoming in in the next generation
to be inspirational.
I love interviewing them, Ilove meeting with them, I love
when they come in and askquestions.
(11:17):
They're not weighed down by allof the preconceived notions,
you know.
When you've been doing this for30 years, you kind of been
there and seen that on justabout everything.
And sometimes you sit in ameeting and it's just somebody
brings up something and youthink, Wow, you know, or or you
say, Oh, we can't do that, andthey say, But why?
(11:38):
You know, and they show youthat it can be done and
relatively easily.
It's I find that to just belike the inspirational moments
where you're like, Wow, this isreally cool and really fun.
Matt Gerstner (11:49):
I love it.
I love it.
Dan Hottinger (11:51):
Um, so that kind of stuff is fun, but also um
being able to take the knowledgebase that you or I or some of
our our long-term peoplehave and and spill that onto
them.
The teaching the nextgeneration is is so much fun.
And it's I might even say it'sa little bit easier because
(12:14):
oftentimes you can do it overZoom.
Oftentimes you can createvideos and podcasts and things
like that.
So it gives you a much widerbase to start from and um it
also gives you something thatthey can go back to.
Matt Gerstner (12:29):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
A library of sorts.
Dan Hottinger (12:31):
Yeah, a library of videos is is very cool.
Um, but uh I also like to saythat in doing a lot of the the
the continuing ed at BWBR, Ilearn from these people every
day, not only from the peoplewho are in the the things, but
our presenters come in and theyhave amazing like uh
experiential stories thatthey'll tell.
(12:53):
They have they they tell youthings where you sit there and
you watch it and you go, huh, Inever knew that.
So it's it's one of thoseindustries where you you're
always learning. You know, youdon't know everything.
You can't possibly knoweverything.
Matt Gerstner (13:08):
No, not one person.
It's fun to just keep learningas you go.
And and you know, I've beendoing this for almost 30 years,
and I'm still learning almostevery single day something new,
which is, you know, which isalways that hmm, interesting
moment for me, you know.
Absolutely.
That's fantastic.
And on that note, Dan, we'regonna call it quits for the day
because you've given ourlisteners a lot to noodle on,
(13:30):
and I can't thank you enough forthe time that you've given us
today.
So thanks for being here.
Dan Hottinger (13:34):
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Gerstner (13:35):
And thank you to our listeners for tuning in.
We will see you again soon.
Welcome to Side Notes, the bite-sized version of
Side of Design.
In 15 minutes or less, we'llexplore one idea, one insight,
or one conversation worthhearing.
Let's get to it.
Welcome to Side Notes, thebite-sized version of Side of
Design.
I'm your host, Matt Gerstner.
Joining me today is DanHottinger, Principal and
Professional Services Directorwith BWBR.
(00:21):
We're going to take a closerlook at and define professional
services today.
Dan, thanks for making time tobe here.
Dan Hottinger (00:27):
Hey, thanks for having me.
Matt Gerstner (00:28):
Fantastic.
We're just going to getstarted.
We don't waste any time here.
Could you start by defininglike what professional services
is and how it relates to ourfield specifically?
Dan Hottinger (00:39):
So professional services I like to think of as
the bridge between design andlike putting the design in
motion.
Matt Gerstner (00:46):
Okay.
Dan Hottinger (00:47):
So oftentimes when I'm introducing myself, I
say that professional services,every everything that we do
after we land the project andwork on the design to get it out
in the field and built.
It's specifying everything,it's making, it's mating the
code to the design to make sureeverything works.
It's the constructionadministration out in the field,
it's the documentation of theset itself.
Matt Gerstner (01:08):
Okay.
So I'm sure some of ourlisteners may not be aware, you
know, of how that term fits intoour industry.
So when you're thinking aboutprofessional services then
today, can you tell me whatyou're most excited about in the
design world around that now?
Dan Hottinger (01:24):
So, okay, so you know, in the bridging of the
design and stuff, there's athere are a lot of things that
are coming down the pipelinethat are starting to reach
reality level, right?
Matt Gerstner (01:33):
Okay.
Dan Hottinger (01:34):
Data-driven design.
Matt Gerstner (01:35):
Yeah.
Dan Hottinger (01:35):
Rather than having the experiential, you
know, well, we, we think weexperienced this, we think we
experienced that.
Going into, we actually havethe data to back up and say,
this is the size of the thewaiting room that you need in a
medical situation, because we'veactually went out there and
monitored, and you don't need 50seats, 14 will do.
Matt Gerstner (01:55):
Right.
Dan Hottinger (01:55):
And here's why, here's how we can prove it.
Matt Gerstner (01:57):
Yeah.
Dan Hottinger (01:57):
Um, it's seeing the infancy of AI kind of come
in and and uh it's gonna have amajor effect on our industry.
Matt Gerstner (02:06):
Right.
Dan Hottinger (02:07):
But making sure that it's right, you know,
Matt Gerstner (02:10):
That's a big one.
Dan Hottinger (02:11):
Big one, because you know, I'm sure everybody has
seen AI stuff on the internet,and it's a little weird.
Well, guess what?
It does the same thing to yourdrawing set, and it does the
same thing to your design.
There's some weirdness about itthat we have to iron out.
Yeah.
It's not perfect, but it itwill allow for us to um to maybe
(02:32):
make more durable decisionsearlier so that so that we can
focus on the design once we haveit.
So you know, and a durabledecision is one where we can
inform the decision-makingprocess, and then when we make
the decision, we don't have tocircle back around to it and
come back to it again and againand again because yeah, that
decision is yep, this is what wewant to do, let's move forward.
(02:54):
So there are points where wecan just keep moving forward
rather than having to circleback in the time.
Matt Gerstner (02:59):
Yeah.
No, I ...
yeah, AI has come up innumerous conversations, and it's
it's affecting every industryand every part of every
industry.
And like you said, trying tomake sure that it's doing the
right thing and not just doingsomething that it's unfathomably
creating on its own.
Dan Hottinger (03:16):
Yeah.
You know, and when you combineall these together, it's really
making so that we can uh shape... we're going beyond designing
buildings. We're kind ofshaping the experience, not only
for the client, but for the forthe people the client's trying
to reach.
In medical, it could be thepatients that are coming in the
door, making sure that they feelsafe and connected and secure
(03:37):
and to their you know, to theirmedical providers, it could be
providing an environment thatpeople want to come work in.
You know, nobody wants to go tosome sterile office and sit
under fluorescent lamps anymore.
You know, so it's it's beingable to kind of shape that the
the project to a lot ofdifferent things that just make
it better in the long run.
Matt Gerstner (03:57):
Fantastic.
So when you're thinking aboutwhat's uh what's exciting, what
are the biggest challenges onthe flip side of that then that
you're seeing?
Dan Hottinger (04:06):
AI is a two-sided coin.
Matt Gerstner (04:08):
There it is.
Dan Hottinger (04:10):
AI is a two-sided coin in that um, you know,
there was a day when we used todraw everything, right?
On mylar with ink.
You know, making changes wasjust pull your hair out time.
Oh no, that's too late.
We can't change it now.
Then we went into AutoCAD,we're into BIM now.
And you know, we're already inan environment where people may
think that we just press abutton and the changes are all
(04:31):
made.
Once we get into AI becomingmore uh uh ingrained in some of
that, you know, fighting thenotion that AI is designing
buildings.
AI doesn't have the ability todesign a building.
You know, uh it's it'sinteresting when you when you
read up on it and people willsay that AI is the death of
creativity.
(04:52):
So we still need thatcreativity within our design
group.
You know, it'll help ustranslate and put that into into
motion.
But um it's a two-sided coin.
It's uh, you know, and theproblem is is we also have you
know, you have that AIpracticality, but um we're also
under, you know, we have tighterbudgets, shorter schedules.
(05:15):
We have um very high clientexpectations.
Matt Gerstner (05:19):
I don't doubt it.
Dan Hottinger (05:20):
And you know, all of these in a very
unpredictable climate right now,right?
So we have, you know, we wentfrom 2019, which is kind of
normal, you know, uh, and thenwe went to 2020.
Whoa, new normal.
How are we gonna do this?
You know, we have so manyclients telling us, how are you
gonna do this from a remoteenvironment?
So we had to work through that.
Now, as we're all starting tofilter back into the office,
(05:43):
expectations are a little bitdifferent, but the but the
business climate is veryvolatile.
So it's up, it's down, youknow, you're over budget, you're
under budget.
You know, how could you be sofar under it?
So the outside pressures alongwith the inside pressures are
you know are are creating a lotof swing back and forth on the
on the old pendulum.
Matt Gerstner (06:04):
Okay, okay.
All right.
So thinking about thosechallenges, like what what kind
of solutions do you think wehave for that?
Dan Hottinger (06:15):
Well so the biggest thing is balancing the
project's ambition with thereality. So being able to have a
team that can effectively comein and make sure that that the
project not only re uh reachesthe ambition that the client
wants, while injecting thereality of sustainability, of of
(06:36):
codes, of all of the differentreview processes and just, you
know, um the time to get it doneproperly.
You know, it's uh you have theold adage uh um my dad owned a
repair auto repair shop and heused to have a sign on the wall
that I think fits in thisindustry.
And it has a triangle, and itsaid, cheap, fast, um, thorough,
(06:57):
uh, or good.
And he said, and it the thecaption underneath it was you
can have two of these.
Matt Gerstner (07:02):
Oh, yeah.
Dan Hottinger (07:03):
You know, so and and I I think it fits if you
want it super fast and you know,super cheap, you have to cut
corners somewhere.
So it's
Matt Gerstner (07:12):
Which isn't good for anybody in the long run.
Dan Hottinger (07:13):
so but the expectation is all three.
So we have to we have to marrya lot of that together.
Um, you know, our job isn't uhour job is to make it simpler.
Matt Gerstner (07:25):
Okay.
Dan Hottinger (07:25):
You know, the implementation should be
simpler.
Um we should be able to put alot of the code and a lot of the
sustainability and a lot ofthat kind of stuff in easily
digestible um strategies for ourclients.
And then that way um in the endwe can help them see their
project as successful.
Matt Gerstner (07:45):
So when you're thinking about the challenges
and you're thinking about what'sexciting you, what do you love
about design?
Dan Hottinger (07:53):
Oh my gosh.
So um uh I could I could nerdout on this for the entire 12
minutes. I mean, so there are anumber of things.
I mean, internally, I love theprocess of design.
I love watching our teams, likeour design leads, you know,
sometimes when you watch thempresent and just the way they
(08:15):
can lead you down a path, right?
And and explain the project toyou and really create a passion
around the project.
I find that like amazing.
I love it.
Um, you know, going to themeetings with the client and
challenging their notions.
How many times have you walkedin and and they say, Well, we've
always done it this way, and itworks. Yeah.
(08:37):
But what would make it great?
What would make it work better?
What would, you know, andreally getting them to kind of
think outside of that along withyou. I love that process.
But then also um seeing itbuilt in the field is one of the
greatest things ever, right?
(08:57):
How many times have you like anumber of my projects have been
built in the metro area?
And driving by and seeing thesteel frame, but in your mind's
eye, you know what that buildinglooks like.
You know what it's supposed tobe.
You've seen the renderings.
Right and while everybody wonders about it, you
know what it's gonna look like.
And and later being able towalk through, touch, feel,
(09:18):
smell, experience the wholebuilding is to me, it's it's
amazing.
I was telling my son, uh thatit's like it's like leaving
footprints, you know, whereveryou go.
And these are buildings thatyou can go back to and and
experience, you know, later inyour career as well.
Matt Gerstner (09:35):
Absolutely.
That's yeah, the the that'sthat's one of the things that I
I always comment on too.
Like we live and and work inone of the few creative fields
where not only do you see yourresult, you can enter, you can
experience, you can like becomepart of it and in in in how it's
(09:56):
used.
You know, it's just yeah,there's just so many ways you
can experience architecture.
Dan Hottinger (10:00):
And oftentimes you go into that building during
the grand opening and you getto listen to the people who work
there, or say students who arecoming in, or even like uh, you
know, the the community thatcome in and they talk about oh,
this is amazing.
That is just like the most warmfuzzies you can get.
It's so amazing.
(10:21):
It's it's yeah.
So that's uh it's it's a it'san um yeah, it's an amazing job.
Matt Gerstner (10:27):
Yeah.
So you're thinking about whatyou love about design.
What inspires you in designthen?
Dan Hottinger (10:35):
So working in professional services, right?
I feel like my inspirationmight be different than other
people's.
I'm tasked with finding thenext generation to come in here
and learn how to do it.
And you know, you always haveto start at the bottom and and
you know, with people, teachthem how to put a building
(10:57):
together, teach them how to puttogether a drawing set, work
them into client-facingpositions and things like that.
I find the people who arecoming in in the next generation
to be inspirational.
I love interviewing them, Ilove meeting with them, I love
when they come in and askquestions.
(11:17):
They're not weighed down by allof the preconceived notions,
you know.
When you've been doing this for30 years, you kind of been
there and seen that on justabout everything.
And sometimes you sit in ameeting and it's just somebody
brings up something and youthink, Wow, you know, or or you
say, Oh, we can't do that, andthey say, But why?
(11:38):
You know, and they show youthat it can be done and
relatively easily.
It's I find that to just belike the inspirational moments
where you're like, Wow, this isreally cool and really fun.
Matt Gerstner (11:49):
I love it.
I love it.
Dan Hottinger (11:51):
Um, so that kind of stuff is fun, but also um
being able to take the knowledgebase that you or I or some of
our our long-term peoplehave and and spill that onto
them.
The teaching the nextgeneration is is so much fun.
And it's I might even say it'sa little bit easier because
(12:14):
oftentimes you can do it overZoom.
Oftentimes you can createvideos and podcasts and things
like that.
So it gives you a much widerbase to start from and um it
also gives you something thatthey can go back to.
Matt Gerstner (12:29):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
A library of sorts.
Dan Hottinger (12:31):
Yeah, a library of videos is is very cool.
Um, but uh I also like to saythat in doing a lot of the the
the continuing ed at BWBR, Ilearn from these people every
day, not only from the peoplewho are in the the things, but
our presenters come in and theyhave amazing like uh
experiential stories thatthey'll tell.
(12:53):
They have they they tell youthings where you sit there and
you watch it and you go, huh, Inever knew that.
So it's it's one of thoseindustries where you you're
always learning. You know, youdon't know everything.
You can't possibly knoweverything.
Matt Gerstner (13:08):
No, not one person.
It's fun to just keep learningas you go.
And and you know, I've beendoing this for almost 30 years,
and I'm still learning almostevery single day something new,
which is, you know, which isalways that hmm, interesting
moment for me, you know.
Absolutely.
That's fantastic.
And on that note, Dan, we'regonna call it quits for the day
because you've given ourlisteners a lot to noodle on,
(13:30):
and I can't thank you enough forthe time that you've given us
today.
So thanks for being here.
Dan Hottinger (13:34):
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Gerstner (13:35):
And thank you to our listeners for tuning in.
We will see you again soon.
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