November 25, 2024 • 33 mins
The research, development, and production that takes place inside science + technology facilities is highly complex and technical. It’s no surprise that the design work that brings these environments to life demands the same level of precision. Design, engineering, and contractor teams partner closely to coordinate the advanced MEP systems and intricate space planning that maintain sterile, safe, and efficient operations.
On this episode of Side of Design, we’re joined by a couple of our own trusted partners, who add their unique perspectives on what sets these complex projects up for success—and how each discipline contributes. Bringing deep experience in the science + tech market, Partner and Mechanical Engineer Nic Igl from Dunham, Horwitz Inc. CEO Emeritus Bill McKoskey, and BWBR Principal Nate Roisen dig into developing high-tech environments.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Gerstner (00:00):
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast
discussing all aspects of designwith knowledge leaders from
every part of the industry.
Hello and welcome to Side ofDesign from BWBR.
I'm your host, matt Gerstner.
On this episode, we'll behighlighting the importance of
partnership across the design,engineering and contractor teams
, particularly on hugely complexprojects like we see in the
(00:23):
science and technology market.
We're thrilled to be joined bysome of our own trusted partners
, who will add their uniqueperspectives on what sets a
project up for success, how eachdiscipline contributes to that
success and some of the lessonsthey've learned along the way.
Joining us today is partner andmechanical engineer Nick Igle
from Dunham Horowitz Inc.
(00:44):
Ceo Emeritus Bill McCoskey andBWBR Principal Nate Roizen.
Thank you all for joining metoday.
It's great to have you here.
Nicolas Igl (00:53):
Thank you, nice to be here.
Matt Gerstner (00:54):
We'll just jump right in and I'm going to ask
each one of you to kind ofintroduce yourselves to our
listeners, just to get themfamiliar with who you are.
Nate Roisen (01:01):
Principal Architect at BWBR, been focused in our
science and technology marketfor over 10 years now Anything
laboratory, clean room,industrial related so I've
touched projects in all kinds ofdifferent sectors and worked
with both Bill and Nick on allkinds of different things.
Bill McKoskey (01:20):
I'm Bill McCoskey , mechanical engineer.
I'm with Horwitz.
We're a mechanical contractorin the Twin Cities.
We've been around over 100years.
I've been at Horwitz over 36years, had pretty much every job
we have, from truck driver toCEO, and I'm on my way out,
retiring shortly but happy to behere.
Matt Gerstner (01:42):
Fantastic and congratulations on that upcoming
retirement.
Thank you.
Nicolas Igl (01:46):
My name is Nick Igle.
I am a mechanical engineer withDunham Associates Consulting
Engineer.
I've been at Dunham for over 25years and focused a lot of my
work in the early years onhigher ed, and the last 10 to 12
years I've been focusing on thelaboratory, clean room, science
and tech portion of ourbusiness.
Matt Gerstner (02:06):
Fantastic, thank you.
It sounds like we've got theright group here to be talking
about this subject.
Let's start by talking a bitabout what makes these types of
high-tech projects unique.
Nicolas Igl (02:51):
Clean rooms, particularly, have a lot of
different needs than, say, yourtraditional projects.
Here we need to have specialtygown rooms, changing rooms.
We're really trying to controla clean environment, and
controlling that cleanenvironment leads to a lot of
additional requirements from theMEP systems here.
Oh, I'm sure.
Yeah, so, thinking about each ofthese individual types, too,
(03:14):
have a different range, but inorder to maintain a clean
environment, it has to do withhow we're providing air to this
space and how many air changeswe're putting through those
individual spaces here air tothis space and how many air
changes we're putting throughthose individual spaces here.
So you could have increased airchange rates in these spaces,
ranging from 25 air changes forsome of the less clean spaces to
(03:35):
over 80 air changes for themore clean spaces.
Oh, wow.
Matt Gerstner (03:40):
That's quite a bit of air cycle going on in
those spaces.
Bill McKoskey (03:44):
Quite a bit of utilities also.
So we end up with a number ofpiping systems, duct systems,
which we're still trying tosqueeze it all into the same
size box.
So it's complex and congestedand a coordination challenge.
Nate Roisen (04:01):
Our projects as we're working on, can be kind of
small.
It could be a 300-square-footroom but if what they're doing
in there is sensitive enough, aplant that is required to
support that one room, throughall the different system impacts
and upfront in terms of goalsfor cleanliness, that and when
(04:33):
the rubber meets the road, andNick and Bill are trying to
design and build the system.
Nicolas Igl (04:39):
Yeah, so you hit on something there, nate, with the
early questions to ask andearly things to go through,
because that really sets therequirements of what we need and
informs how much spacerequirements you may have with
MEP systems.
Things like is it an ISO, theISO class of the clean rooms?
Iso 8 clean rooms require lessairflow than an ISO 4 or 5 clean
(05:00):
room.
And then the space conditionsas well.
So four or five clean room andthen the space conditions as
well.
So if we have a space that hasmore traditional temperature and
humidity say 72, 50% relativehumidity, you'll have a more
traditional type of system.
But if we have requirementswhere you have lower temperature
, lower humidity, it'll reallylead you to some more complex
(05:22):
mechanical systems humidity,it'll really lead you to some
more complex mechanical systems.
Bill McKoskey (05:30):
It's really important to have a solid OPR,
the owner project requirementsand a basis of design, probably
before you even start puttingpen to paper, so that you know
the direction you're going andyou don't end up in a place you
don't want to be.
Matt Gerstner (05:39):
I can imagine that would be crucial to
completing a project efficientlyand on budget as well.
So in the high-tech realmyou're talking about different
kinds of projects.
I understand you know there'sdifferent fields that all fall
under high-tech and it soundslike they all have very unique
(05:59):
requirements for each one, but Iunderstand there's crossover
between them.
Nate Roisen (06:05):
When I started working on these projects, it's
like a clean room is a cleanroom and you can do anything in
a room that's clean enough.
But depending on the marketthat you're working in, if it's
a pharma market,cross-contamination and
biological infection is justgoing to be.
You'll spend hours talkingabout that with the client and
working through differentstrategies to minimize those
risks.
If you're working in thesemiconductor world, all of a
(06:27):
sudden you have to be worriedabout static electricity and all
the different details.
The way you think about movingmaterial through a space can
lead to incredibly differentlayouts across the sectors.
And then you know from a systemstandpoint and you're concerned
(07:16):
about the cross-contaminationof the product and material, as
well as just how the space istreated there.
Why so many hallways, triplesets of circulation.
It's because each one serves aspecific function for people and
product to move in a specificdirection and also serves a
function for airflow and the waythat you push air away from the
most sensitive spaces.
And all of that has spaceimpacts that you need to
understand right up front.
Nicolas Igl (07:37):
Pressure cascades are a big thing in there, and if
it's, you know, if we need tohave sinks, so we are bringing,
you know, two air flows into onearea.
Or if we need to have sinks, sowe are bringing two air flows
into one area.
Or if we're cascading from theclean to dirty and keeping a
concern on what thatcross-contamination might be.
Bill McKoskey (07:54):
Certainly third-party certifications like
FDA and the MedTech andPharmaWorld very important to
think about ahead of the game.
How do those.
Nate Roisen (08:03):
I'm going to take Matt's job now.
Go for it.
Maybe I suggest going to takeMatt's job now.
Go for it.
Maybe I suggest a question?
No, please do.
Bill, how do the FDAcertifications impact your role
in the contracting in thebuilding world?
Bill McKoskey (08:16):
You know, I don't know if it's as much on the
design and installation side asthe downside if they don't
achieve it, you know, if theirclean room doesn't achieve it
and they have a bunch of productthat they now need to throw
away.
I mean just it can be aterrible event, and how far
(08:37):
back do you go with the productyou've been making.
It's just a scary scenario.
I think it's a big deal ifthey're not meeting their
numbers in the semiconductorworld also, because they're
probably also throwing away someproduct.
So it's just important that thedesign meet the end intent.
But when you have that thirdparty looking over your shoulder
, it's a little bit scarier.
Matt Gerstner (08:58):
I can imagine that that would be a driving
factor in things when you'retrying to make sure the system
is functioning properly.
Bill McKoskey (09:05):
It can make us all look really bad when it
doesn't work For something likethat.
Nicolas Igl (09:11):
it's really making sure we have the right people on
the client's and owner's side,that we can have the
conversation to meet what theirspecific requirements might be,
because I have noticed it beslightly different from client
to client, even in the samemarket sector.
Matt Gerstner (09:29):
You brought up a good thing there.
You started to talk about teams.
So what are some of thebenefits of a team approach as
opposed to more like traditionalorder of operations?
Can you clarify what like atraditional approach is?
Nate Roisen (09:44):
Well, I think the traditional approach if you're
talking about, like a highschool or something, would be a
design team designs the projectand sends it out to bid and a
bunch of different contractorsbid on it and then they start
building based on who had thelowest or the best value bid
right.
I don't know that there's everbeen a project in our realm
(10:08):
that's ever taken on thattraditional approach.
It seems like having earlyinvolvement with contractors and
early involvement withengineering partners so you can
set the scope of the project.
Happens all the time and, bill,with your history, you might
have a bit further background,but it seems like this project
type just simply demandsteamwork in it, and it has, at
(10:29):
least as long as I've beenworking on it.
Bill McKoskey (10:30):
Yeah, I think we all bring a different expertise
to the table.
In my case, you know weunderstand cost pretty well.
We also understandconstructability pretty well.
So with the Dunham's design wecan hopefully comment along the
way and make sure we're stillhitting the budget.
We want to hit and make sureeverything fits in.
All of my BIM designers areactual union installers, so they
(10:55):
have a very good understandingof how the parts and pieces go
together and we model it thatway just to make sure it's all
going to work.
So that's kind of the value thecontractor brings into this
early in the game.
Nicolas Igl (11:06):
Yeah, I think what you get is the best of
everything.
You have each team member doingwhat they do best.
Building on that MEP designside, we can focus more,
focusing on what is the rightdesign, what are the right parts
and pieces that we need inorder to meet the requirements
that we set in the previousdiscussion.
So we can focus on theengineering.
(11:27):
And having a team member likeBill on board is great because
it helps us to bounce offdifferent impacts and different
concepts that we could do tounderstand what the cost
implications, constructiontimeframe whatever the
construction timeframe effectswe might have.
Nate Roisen (11:45):
Yeah, it frequently is the case where there'll be a
project and the owner knowsthat they need to be doing
something in the space to earnmoney by a certain point in time
.
Right, and so they'll.
They'll say the space needs tobe operational in 18 months, or
four months, depending on on theproject type.
And that's where that idea ofpulling in the contractor to
understand time and cost becomesincredibly important.
(12:08):
You just can't really know whatyou're dealing with until
someone that knows what it takesto install a sophisticated set
of piping systems and qualifythem and so forth is telling you
what it'll take.
And it always seems to be achallenge to figure out how to
make challenging schedules work,but without the contractor's
(12:29):
input it's just impossible.
Bill McKoskey (12:31):
Not unusual for us to be installing the
underground plumbing while theabove ground mechanical systems
are still being figured out,usually because the owner hasn't
necessarily figured out whatthey want.
But if you want to meet thatend date, you need to start at
an appropriate time, and thatmeans you're probably starting
before the design is done.
Matt Gerstner (12:50):
I'm hearing rapid pace of schedule for this, not
a traditional, if you willschedule for construction or
design and development, for thatmatter.
Nate Roisen (13:00):
And it gets into a world of you know our clients
are.
A lot of times they're publiclytraded companies and so you
know the second they commit abig chunk of money to a building
project.
Wall Street notices, biginvestors notice, and it's a
challenge on their end to getthe project funded and they need
to prove a return on thatinvestment really quickly.
(13:21):
And so that just seems likeevery project that we work on is
operating under some parameterof time and that becomes a
normal operating procedure onour end to work around and think
creatively about how you canwork with the client to meet
those budgets.
Bill McKoskey (13:37):
Another challenge we've had more recently is
equipment procurement.
At times rooftop units orchillers.
They know they might be, youknow, a year and a half out.
So you need to buy these piecesof equipment just so that you
have them at the right time toinstall them.
And again, that probablyprecedes the completion of the
design.
So a Dunham will put out earlyprocurement packages, which
(13:59):
probably has that undergroundplumbing that we talked about,
but also all of the long leadequipment rooftop units, air
compressors, chillers.
It's probably even a biggerdeal on the electrical side.
Some of that gear is generators, can be two years out.
So you need to be thinkingabout that stuff early.
Nate Roisen (14:17):
Which puts a lot of pressure on the team that's
trying to figure out how bigthis building needs to be in the
first place.
Right, and you know there's areal challenge early on, and I
have to sing Nick's praises onone particular project where he
told us he needed a 1200 squarefoot chiller room and that
chiller room ended up at 1200square feet and it works just
(14:37):
right.
It's not too big and it didn'thave to change in design.
And a big part of us being ableto meet a challenging schedule
on that particular project wasthe fact that we were able to
pin the MEP system rooms intothe plan with a high degree of
confidence that their size waspretty darn close to right.
That takes some experience andit takes some knowledge and
(15:00):
trust from the MEP team and thearchitectural team working
together to make something likethat happen.
You can't order a unit if youdon't know how big the space is
that it has to fit in.
Nicolas Igl (15:10):
Yeah, a lot of that is building.
It's building the system typebased upon knowledge of this
product type and this type ofbuilding that we're building.
So in order to get the earlyprocurement you know some of
those initial questions that weask the owner we start building
the size of the equipment rightaway.
Matt Gerstner (15:31):
I'm going to just take a step back for a second
here.
So for some of our listenerstuning into an architecture and
design podcast, they may beasking why are we talking so
heavily about MEP for high tech?
So when we're thinking about ahigh tech building, how much
space does MEP actually take up?
(15:53):
Because I'm guessing that is animportant driving factor even
for this podcast.
Nate Roisen (15:59):
I like to think of it when you open up the hood of
your car and you look at theengine and there's like tubes
running everywhere and parts andpieces and they all kind of fit
snugly together.
I think our projects in thescience and tech market are like
a car at 100 times the scalewhere if you could pull the roof
off our building and look downin it, it would be just like
(16:19):
looking at an engine, wherethere's all kinds of different
things overlapping on each otherrooms relating to each other in
specific ways, circulationsystems, so on and so forth.
And it's not that there's aspecific percentage, that's MEP
space, it's that the entireproject is MEP space.
It's all about trying to getthat arrangement of these
(16:39):
different systems to work sothat there's a harmony and a
connection between everythingthat works and is serviceable
and is affordable and all theseother different things we need
to do.
Bill McKoskey (16:50):
The building is just an enclosure for my
mechanical system.
Nate Roisen (16:54):
That's a fantastic way to put it, and I used to be
offended when I heard people saythe longer I work in this
system, the more I nod my headand I go yeah, exactly.
Matt Gerstner (17:04):
So, thinking about that then, Nate, I'm
guessing that it's just we're onboard just to try and make it
all look real nice.
Nate Roisen (17:13):
No, it's, it's.
It's more than that, matt, ok.
Ok.
There is an element of that,though, where, a th en o th d,
it has to be a building thatpeople want to work in, and so
conversations about how do webring daylight into the spaces,
what does the break room looklike, conversations about how do
we bring daylight into thespaces, what does the break room
look like, how do we get thebreak room as close as possible
(17:36):
to the gowning room in the floorplan so that, when people are
taking their break, they're notspending their time off work
having to walk a mile to theirbreak spot All those
conversations are reallyimportant.
It needs to work , but it'salso about thinking about the
building as a system, andarchitecture is a key part of
the system.
It needs to function, it needsto make sense, and we all need
to think of ourselves, as thosemechanical rooms that aren't
(17:58):
pretty in the traditional senseat the end of the day are every
bit as important and require allthe attention to detail that
you would give a public lobby orsomething like that.
Matt Gerstner (18:07):
And what you were saying then.
What I hear also is thatadjacencies is incredibly
important for this type ofproject, from like staff
movements to particularequipment needing to be in
particular places in relation toother spaces.
Nate Roisen (18:27):
You know, at the end of the day there's also
sophisticated equipment,manufacturing equipment that's
going to go in these spaces, andso there will be, as those
equipment vendors come on board,proliferations of their
equipment.
You'll start off and they'llsay, oh, we have a vacuum pump
we need for this piece ofequipment, and then pretty
quickly it's four vacuum pumpsand then it's 10.
(18:47):
And you're kind of left tryingto figure out how to get these
pieces into place.
Having that knowledge or havingthat thought process up front
is also really important.
How do we build thatflexibility in so that as the
owner equipment comes on board,they have the space they need
and the flexibility to makethose connections and actually
do the work they need to do inthe building?
Bill McKoskey (19:09):
And the flexibility to change that tool
out in six months, because thetechnology changes so quickly in
semiconductor and med tech thatwhat we're installing day one
probably isn't even in thebuilding day.
You know three, four and five.
Nicolas Igl (19:24):
Sometimes we don't even know exactly what tools are
going to be installed in thebuilding until we get closer to
the end of construction.
So as we think through whatservices we might need to serve
these individual tools, we haveto provide some level of
flexibility or ability to addmaybe additional specialty gases
or pipe systems down the road.
Nate Roisen (19:47):
Or that scenario planning for what does it look
like when the building grows?
What footprint for majormechanical electrical equipment
is just there, but empty on dayone, so that when the building
needs to double in size, you canbring another chiller online or
whatever the piece of equipmentmight be.
How does that work relative tothe site and some of those other
(20:07):
constraints that you inevitablyrun into?
How are they going to actuallybuild it when the building's
operational and they need toexpand it?
What does that process looklike and what decisions can you
make up front to make thatprocess easier?
There's all that layer ofinformation, too, that comes
into play as you're thinkingthrough these projects.
Nicolas Igl (20:25):
That starts to think a little bit Nate about
how do you work in existingbuildings, right?
Because one of the bigchallenges we have when we come
in and meet with new clients andthey're doing their process
right now and where you need toimplement an addition or bring
in additional tools andequipment, but we can't affect
(20:46):
their manufacturing while that'shappening, their manufacturing
while that's happening.
So that goes into a lot ofdiscussion on either phasing
mechanical systems installationor adding separate ones and
cross-tying the mechanicalsystems back.
So it's a process that needs tobe completely thought through
(21:07):
and sometimes that does drivewhere the systems and where the
addition can occur on a building.
Bill McKoskey (21:13):
Another factor on these projects is redundancy.
You know you lose a unit in anoffice building, people are
uncomfortable, but if you lose aunit in a semiconductor fab or
a med tech facility, you mightbe losing a million dollars an
hour.
So certainly, nick, you couldprobably comment better on it,
but your designs incorporate apretty good backup system for
(21:35):
all parts and pieces.
Nicolas Igl (21:36):
The redundancy and resiliency is a big concern on
these project types here andeach client might have a
different level of what theyconsider redundant right?
Some people, if you have an Nplus one fan in an air handler,
you can still get along untilyou can get in and replace and
fix that fan.
Others require a completeredundant air handling unit and
(22:00):
that's where we get indiscussion of it.
Is it a full size unit, so 100%capacity, or is it maybe two
units at 75% capacity?
The budgeting and impacts tothe space planning is where all
those discussions start to occur.
Bill McKoskey (22:15):
And that's where the contractor prices up both
options and you present it tothe owner and they can decide
how to spend their money wisely.
Nate Roisen (22:23):
And it's never really a blank check either.
As important as redundancy is,there's very few owners that are
willing to say I'll paywhatever it takes to be fully
backed up.
A lot of times, when they seewhat it takes in terms of the
size of the generator or thenumber of units, they go okay.
Let's have a value discussionhere about the cost benefit and
the risk versus the possibility,and I think that's really where
(22:45):
the design team is a valuablevoice to be able to work through
those trade-offs, bring someperspectives from other clients,
other approaches, and kind offind the thing that fits the
budget, fits the piece ofequipment, going down thinking
that there is a two year leadtime to get a replacement for it
and that would be when you'retalking millions of dollars a
(23:20):
day, as you mentioned, Bill, inlosses If they have to shut down
, that is you can't support thatin your business.
Matt Gerstner (23:26):
It's the redundancy I can hear is
absolutely critical.
Is there any other advice thatyou would have for owners that
are heading into a project ofthis type?
Nate Roisen (23:36):
We started talking about existing buildings a
minute ago and then theconversation switched.
But existing buildings ingeneral are challenging.
An existing building that mightbe on the market and relatively
affordable, and the client seesit as an attractive offer, but
it takes a lot of work to get itup to speed and knowing what
(23:56):
kind of work it'll take and thesmallest little things can trip
you up.
The energy code has changedsince the 80s, so there might be
a building that requires a lotof additional insulation in
order to meet current energycodes.
The slope of the roof might notbe advantageous to what you
want to be doing in the futurestate, and so you have to do a
lot of work to upgrade the roofin order to get the work in the
(24:19):
spaces below away from thingslike roof drains and so forth.
So some of those really nuancedsmall details can pose huge
challenges when you're workingin an existing building.
So going in with your eyes wideopen and really thinking
through and understanding whatyou've got in front of you is
incredibly important.
Nicolas Igl (24:35):
One of the other challenges with an existing
building really has to do withthe vertical height.
We've been talking a lot aboutspace planning.
When you think of looking downat a building, where does the
mechanical systems reside?
But really that distributionand how much room we need above
that ceiling can be a bigchallenge if you're going into
an existing building, because alot of these buildings might
(24:58):
have a 12-foot clear heightthere.
But typically with these typesof buildings we'll need
something on the order of 14foot plus, depending upon what
type of room we're putting inthere, and that's assuming a
more traditional 8 to 10 footceiling there.
Some of these semiconductorfacilities we will have all the
(25:20):
mechanicals located above, soall the air handlers located
above, feeding down into aplenum and then recirculate down
, even to a sub fab and thencome back up and around.
So you might have a three-storybuilding and really only one
floor of it is actual productionspace.
Bill McKoskey (25:37):
I think my advice to an owner would be to
seriously consider a designassist concept, which is crazy
selfish.
I know being the contractor,but I do believe there's a lot
of value in bringing thecontractor on board early so
that they can share theirexpertise.
Certainly, there's a lot oftrust that goes along with that,
so hopefully you have a trustedcontractor in your backyard.
(25:59):
The concept's been great for alot of projects that these three
firms have worked on together.
Matt Gerstner (26:05):
Well, I can certainly see the benefit in
that, and when you had mentionedearlier about being able to
just start to throw numbers atthings as things are being
designed, just having that skillon the team and that set of
information as you're trying todesign and things are actually
going in the ground as you'restill designing, and being able
to rapidly come through withnumbers and information, I can
(26:29):
see that being critical for aclient.
Nate Roisen (26:31):
Yeah, and thinking through on the other end of the
timeline, as the client is doingtheir pro forma for the project
and deciding how much moneythey can spend and how much
product they need to make torecoup their investment Having
the production people really,really aligned with what the
leadership is asking for interms of money.
Product translates into money.
(26:52):
It is an incredibly importantthing If a project has been sold
to a leadership group as beingable to make a thousand things a
year and the production peoplesay that there's no way we can
only make 750, that's a hugedisconnect that before you even
think about hiring a designer ora contractor, you need to be on
the same page.
(27:13):
It sets ourselves up for realchallenges if we're constantly
chasing an unrealisticproduction goal or maybe not
even unrealistic, that might notbe the right word but a
ambitious production goal thatthe client's team isn't fully
bought into.
Matt Gerstner (27:29):
So, in thinking about the entire project, we've
talked about constructionprocess, we've talked about
design process, but what aboutoperations and maintenance?
Nicolas Igl (27:40):
When you start to think about operation
maintenance, you need to be ableto sit down and talk with the
facility's personnel as part ofthe design process.
You need to be able tounderstand what their specific
requirements are, what they dealwith on a day-to-day basis,
what some of their hot-buttonitems are or what issues they
typically see, so that you canhave them addressed and designed
(28:04):
into the mechanical solutionfor the project.
Bill McKoskey (28:08):
And I think if you have a 3D project and you
have a BIM savvy engineeringcontractor, you can actually fly
through the model with thatmaintenance engineer and talk
about here's where the valvesare when you have a leak, here's
where you close them and here'syour access for filter
change-outs, so that they canparticipate in those decisions
early on, Anytime.
(28:29):
They're part of the decision.
They're going to like the endproduct that much more so it's
great to pull them in early,walk them through the model and
have them be part of the team.
Matt Gerstner (28:38):
I can see that being beneficial too, just in
that they're there daily and intheir process they are seeing
things that do need maintenance,that do need adjustments, more
frequently than we're aware of.
Bill McKoskey (28:51):
They probably have a scenario now where
they're doing it unsafely.
Nate Roisen (29:06):
So it's great to get their perspective on how to
do it not only efficiently butalso safely, whether it's
changing a filter or changing amotor or a belt or whatever it
happens to be.
And I think there's a lot ofexciting things that I'm hearing
about in terms of how computingpower can help facilities,
people maintain their buildingand ultimately translates into
design concepts.
But if you have an artificialintelligence system that is
geared towards a specific set ofoperations, a computer can
monitor a lot more sensors thana person can and being able to
(29:28):
flag items for attention.
But you can have 10 times thesensors but the same person can
keep the same eye on them withthe assistance of a computer
system.
Some of that stuff getsincredibly exciting because it
only creates more opportunitiesfor efficiency and for energy
savings and really valuablethings that can come out of that
.
So I'm excited to see wherethings end up here over the
(29:51):
coming five, 10 years as thosesystems come online and we start
to grapple with them in thedesign phase.
Matt Gerstner (29:58):
Do any of you have any stories of challenges
or lessons learned that may helpsome of our clients or people
thinking about you know they'vegot a project coming up that
they need to need to dosomething with.
Nicolas Igl (30:11):
One lesson learned that I would say I've came
across in my career really hasto do with setting the design
requirements your temperature,humidity in this space and
making sure you keep that inmind, especially when we go
through the VE process.
This particular project theowner had low temperature, low
humidity requirements and wegave them the design and then we
(30:35):
weren't involved, dunham wasn'tinvolved with the VE approach
on it, and the contractor thatwas involved said I can save you
a million dollars if we put aDX gas-fired air handler up here
.
And then they went that route,got the construction done and
then called us up and said, hey,it doesn't work.
And we said, well, how's thatdesking system working?
(30:55):
And they said we don't have one.
We beat it out of the project.
So it's understanding what yourrequirements are and that the
equipment meets that and keepingthat in mind while you're
trying to save money.
Matt Gerstner (31:07):
You can't just VE things out without really
figuring out what you're takingout and what the impact is going
to be, and the design team isgoing to be critical in that
function.
Nicolas Igl (31:18):
Yeah, we're all here to help and get you to the
right solution withunderstanding what the budget
and the operational impactsmight be.
Bill McKoskey (31:26):
It's important that every VE idea has a list of
pros and cons because, again,it's the owner's money.
They got to figure out how tospend it and they may be willing
to take some risks on RH, butnot always.
Sometimes you have limits thatyou got to be careful.
I've been doing this so longand I don't know if anyone has
ever said this job is underbudget.
(31:47):
It just doesn't happen.
So VE happens on every singleproject.
So they're certainly makingsacrifices of some sort to save
a few bucks and if it'sshort-sighted you get in that
scenario like Nick described andit probably would have cost 10
times to add it after the factthan it would have been to
(32:09):
install it initially correctly.
Matt Gerstner (32:11):
Well, that's something I don't think a lot of
owners realize that when you'redesigning something and you
have that price for it, thatprice is the price for going in
the first time.
If you take something out ofthat equation and you start the
construction process, when itcomes back and you realize you
need it and it's coming in afterthe fact, it's not the same
(32:33):
cost.
In a lot of cases that costgoes up because there's all
sorts of work that needs tochange now.
Nate Roisen (32:39):
As I think about our most successful projects,
the ones that come to mind arethe ones that had the most
engaged staff from a clientstandpoint.
It takes a lot of work to run abuilding or to do the work or
the lab testing or theproduction work in one of these
facilities, and so it's not easyto say, at the end of your 40
(32:59):
or 50 hour a week job, comeanswer a bunch of questions from
a design team.
But the more space that's builtinto those people's schedule to
actually do it, the better theend result will be.
We need that engagement withthe client right up front and
really that's a leadershipdecision.
Right as folks are thinkingabout getting a project kicked
off, they need to be thinkingabout their people being really
(33:22):
engaged with the design so thatthe end product is as good as it
can possibly be.
Bill McKoskey (33:26):
It's a great example.
You need to somehow free themup because they're busy with
their day job.
How are they going to helpbuild an addition or a new plant
?
Nate Roisen (33:35):
Well, and it's the leadership that needs to free
them up.
The leaders of the organizationneed to make sure their people
have the space to make gooddecisions or work with us to
make good decisions.
Matt Gerstner (33:47):
So I just want to thank you all for joining us
today.
This conversation has beenenlightening.
There's a lot that goes on whenwe're looking at high-tech
spaces.
There's a lot of information,there's a lot of knowledge that
needs to be shared and they'revery complicated.
So thank you all for your timeand insights.
Appreciate all your time today.
Thanks for the opportunity,thank you.
(34:07):
This has been Side of Designfrom BWBR, brought to you
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(34:28):
Email us at sideofdesign atbwbrcom.
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast
discussing all aspects of designwith knowledge leaders from
every part of the industry.
Hello and welcome to Side ofDesign from BWBR.
I'm your host, matt Gerstner.
On this episode, we'll behighlighting the importance of
partnership across the design,engineering and contractor teams
, particularly on hugely complexprojects like we see in the
(00:23):
science and technology market.
We're thrilled to be joined bysome of our own trusted partners
, who will add their uniqueperspectives on what sets a
project up for success, how eachdiscipline contributes to that
success and some of the lessonsthey've learned along the way.
Joining us today is partner andmechanical engineer Nick Igle
from Dunham Horowitz Inc.
(00:44):
Ceo Emeritus Bill McCoskey andBWBR Principal Nate Roizen.
Thank you all for joining metoday.
It's great to have you here.
Nicolas Igl (00:53):
Thank you, nice to be here.
Matt Gerstner (00:54):
We'll just jump right in and I'm going to ask
each one of you to kind ofintroduce yourselves to our
listeners, just to get themfamiliar with who you are.
Nate Roisen (01:01):
Principal Architect at BWBR, been focused in our
science and technology marketfor over 10 years now Anything
laboratory, clean room,industrial related so I've
touched projects in all kinds ofdifferent sectors and worked
with both Bill and Nick on allkinds of different things.
Bill McKoskey (01:20):
I'm Bill McCoskey , mechanical engineer.
I'm with Horwitz.
We're a mechanical contractorin the Twin Cities.
We've been around over 100years.
I've been at Horwitz over 36years, had pretty much every job
we have, from truck driver toCEO, and I'm on my way out,
retiring shortly but happy to behere.
Matt Gerstner (01:42):
Fantastic and congratulations on that upcoming
retirement.
Thank you.
Nicolas Igl (01:46):
My name is Nick Igle.
I am a mechanical engineer withDunham Associates Consulting
Engineer.
I've been at Dunham for over 25years and focused a lot of my
work in the early years onhigher ed, and the last 10 to 12
years I've been focusing on thelaboratory, clean room, science
and tech portion of ourbusiness.
Matt Gerstner (02:06):
Fantastic, thank you.
It sounds like we've got theright group here to be talking
about this subject.
Let's start by talking a bitabout what makes these types of
high-tech projects unique.
Nicolas Igl (02:51):
Clean rooms, particularly, have a lot of
different needs than, say, yourtraditional projects.
Here we need to have specialtygown rooms, changing rooms.
We're really trying to controla clean environment, and
controlling that cleanenvironment leads to a lot of
additional requirements from theMEP systems here.
Oh, I'm sure.
Yeah, so, thinking about each ofthese individual types, too,
(03:14):
have a different range, but inorder to maintain a clean
environment, it has to do withhow we're providing air to this
space and how many air changeswe're putting through those
individual spaces here air tothis space and how many air
changes we're putting throughthose individual spaces here.
So you could have increased airchange rates in these spaces,
ranging from 25 air changes forsome of the less clean spaces to
(03:35):
over 80 air changes for themore clean spaces.
Oh, wow.
Matt Gerstner (03:40):
That's quite a bit of air cycle going on in
those spaces.
Bill McKoskey (03:44):
Quite a bit of utilities also.
So we end up with a number ofpiping systems, duct systems,
which we're still trying tosqueeze it all into the same
size box.
So it's complex and congestedand a coordination challenge.
Nate Roisen (04:01):
Our projects as we're working on, can be kind of
small.
It could be a 300-square-footroom but if what they're doing
in there is sensitive enough, aplant that is required to
support that one room, throughall the different system impacts
and upfront in terms of goalsfor cleanliness, that and when
(04:33):
the rubber meets the road, andNick and Bill are trying to
design and build the system.
Nicolas Igl (04:39):
Yeah, so you hit on something there, nate, with the
early questions to ask andearly things to go through,
because that really sets therequirements of what we need and
informs how much spacerequirements you may have with
MEP systems.
Things like is it an ISO, theISO class of the clean rooms?
Iso 8 clean rooms require lessairflow than an ISO 4 or 5 clean
(05:00):
room.
And then the space conditionsas well.
So four or five clean room andthen the space conditions as
well.
So if we have a space that hasmore traditional temperature and
humidity say 72, 50% relativehumidity, you'll have a more
traditional type of system.
But if we have requirementswhere you have lower temperature
, lower humidity, it'll reallylead you to some more complex
(05:22):
mechanical systems humidity,it'll really lead you to some
more complex mechanical systems.
Bill McKoskey (05:30):
It's really important to have a solid OPR,
the owner project requirementsand a basis of design, probably
before you even start puttingpen to paper, so that you know
the direction you're going andyou don't end up in a place you
don't want to be.
Matt Gerstner (05:39):
I can imagine that would be crucial to
completing a project efficientlyand on budget as well.
So in the high-tech realmyou're talking about different
kinds of projects.
I understand you know there'sdifferent fields that all fall
under high-tech and it soundslike they all have very unique
(05:59):
requirements for each one, but Iunderstand there's crossover
between them.
Nate Roisen (06:05):
When I started working on these projects, it's
like a clean room is a cleanroom and you can do anything in
a room that's clean enough.
But depending on the marketthat you're working in, if it's
a pharma market,cross-contamination and
biological infection is justgoing to be.
You'll spend hours talkingabout that with the client and
working through differentstrategies to minimize those
risks.
If you're working in thesemiconductor world, all of a
(06:27):
sudden you have to be worriedabout static electricity and all
the different details.
The way you think about movingmaterial through a space can
lead to incredibly differentlayouts across the sectors.
And then you know from a systemstandpoint and you're concerned
(07:16):
about the cross-contaminationof the product and material, as
well as just how the space istreated there.
Why so many hallways, triplesets of circulation.
It's because each one serves aspecific function for people and
product to move in a specificdirection and also serves a
function for airflow and the waythat you push air away from the
most sensitive spaces.
And all of that has spaceimpacts that you need to
understand right up front.
Nicolas Igl (07:37):
Pressure cascades are a big thing in there, and if
it's, you know, if we need tohave sinks, so we are bringing,
you know, two air flows into onearea.
Or if we need to have sinks, sowe are bringing two air flows
into one area.
Or if we're cascading from theclean to dirty and keeping a
concern on what thatcross-contamination might be.
Bill McKoskey (07:54):
Certainly third-party certifications like
FDA and the MedTech andPharmaWorld very important to
think about ahead of the game.
How do those.
Nate Roisen (08:03):
I'm going to take Matt's job now.
Go for it.
Maybe I suggest going to takeMatt's job now.
Go for it.
Maybe I suggest a question?
No, please do.
Bill, how do the FDAcertifications impact your role
in the contracting in thebuilding world?
Bill McKoskey (08:16):
You know, I don't know if it's as much on the
design and installation side asthe downside if they don't
achieve it, you know, if theirclean room doesn't achieve it
and they have a bunch of productthat they now need to throw
away.
I mean just it can be aterrible event, and how far
(08:37):
back do you go with the productyou've been making.
It's just a scary scenario.
I think it's a big deal ifthey're not meeting their
numbers in the semiconductorworld also, because they're
probably also throwing away someproduct.
So it's just important that thedesign meet the end intent.
But when you have that thirdparty looking over your shoulder
, it's a little bit scarier.
Matt Gerstner (08:58):
I can imagine that that would be a driving
factor in things when you'retrying to make sure the system
is functioning properly.
Bill McKoskey (09:05):
It can make us all look really bad when it
doesn't work For something likethat.
Nicolas Igl (09:11):
it's really making sure we have the right people on
the client's and owner's side,that we can have the
conversation to meet what theirspecific requirements might be,
because I have noticed it beslightly different from client
to client, even in the samemarket sector.
Matt Gerstner (09:29):
You brought up a good thing there.
You started to talk about teams.
So what are some of thebenefits of a team approach as
opposed to more like traditionalorder of operations?
Can you clarify what like atraditional approach is?
Nate Roisen (09:44):
Well, I think the traditional approach if you're
talking about, like a highschool or something, would be a
design team designs the projectand sends it out to bid and a
bunch of different contractorsbid on it and then they start
building based on who had thelowest or the best value bid
right.
I don't know that there's everbeen a project in our realm
(10:08):
that's ever taken on thattraditional approach.
It seems like having earlyinvolvement with contractors and
early involvement withengineering partners so you can
set the scope of the project.
Happens all the time and, bill,with your history, you might
have a bit further background,but it seems like this project
type just simply demandsteamwork in it, and it has, at
(10:29):
least as long as I've beenworking on it.
Bill McKoskey (10:30):
Yeah, I think we all bring a different expertise
to the table.
In my case, you know weunderstand cost pretty well.
We also understandconstructability pretty well.
So with the Dunham's design wecan hopefully comment along the
way and make sure we're stillhitting the budget.
We want to hit and make sureeverything fits in.
All of my BIM designers areactual union installers, so they
(10:55):
have a very good understandingof how the parts and pieces go
together and we model it thatway just to make sure it's all
going to work.
So that's kind of the value thecontractor brings into this
early in the game.
Nicolas Igl (11:06):
Yeah, I think what you get is the best of
everything.
You have each team member doingwhat they do best.
Building on that MEP designside, we can focus more,
focusing on what is the rightdesign, what are the right parts
and pieces that we need inorder to meet the requirements
that we set in the previousdiscussion.
So we can focus on theengineering.
(11:27):
And having a team member likeBill on board is great because
it helps us to bounce offdifferent impacts and different
concepts that we could do tounderstand what the cost
implications, constructiontimeframe whatever the
construction timeframe effectswe might have.
Nate Roisen (11:45):
Yeah, it frequently is the case where there'll be a
project and the owner knowsthat they need to be doing
something in the space to earnmoney by a certain point in time
.
Right, and so they'll.
They'll say the space needs tobe operational in 18 months, or
four months, depending on on theproject type.
And that's where that idea ofpulling in the contractor to
understand time and cost becomesincredibly important.
(12:08):
You just can't really know whatyou're dealing with until
someone that knows what it takesto install a sophisticated set
of piping systems and qualifythem and so forth is telling you
what it'll take.
And it always seems to be achallenge to figure out how to
make challenging schedules work,but without the contractor's
(12:29):
input it's just impossible.
Bill McKoskey (12:31):
Not unusual for us to be installing the
underground plumbing while theabove ground mechanical systems
are still being figured out,usually because the owner hasn't
necessarily figured out whatthey want.
But if you want to meet thatend date, you need to start at
an appropriate time, and thatmeans you're probably starting
before the design is done.
Matt Gerstner (12:50):
I'm hearing rapid pace of schedule for this, not
a traditional, if you willschedule for construction or
design and development, for thatmatter.
Nate Roisen (13:00):
And it gets into a world of you know our clients
are.
A lot of times they're publiclytraded companies and so you
know the second they commit abig chunk of money to a building
project.
Wall Street notices, biginvestors notice, and it's a
challenge on their end to getthe project funded and they need
to prove a return on thatinvestment really quickly.
(13:21):
And so that just seems likeevery project that we work on is
operating under some parameterof time and that becomes a
normal operating procedure onour end to work around and think
creatively about how you canwork with the client to meet
those budgets.
Bill McKoskey (13:37):
Another challenge we've had more recently is
equipment procurement.
At times rooftop units orchillers.
They know they might be, youknow, a year and a half out.
So you need to buy these piecesof equipment just so that you
have them at the right time toinstall them.
And again, that probablyprecedes the completion of the
design.
So a Dunham will put out earlyprocurement packages, which
(13:59):
probably has that undergroundplumbing that we talked about,
but also all of the long leadequipment rooftop units, air
compressors, chillers.
It's probably even a biggerdeal on the electrical side.
Some of that gear is generators, can be two years out.
So you need to be thinkingabout that stuff early.
Nate Roisen (14:17):
Which puts a lot of pressure on the team that's
trying to figure out how bigthis building needs to be in the
first place.
Right, and you know there's areal challenge early on, and I
have to sing Nick's praises onone particular project where he
told us he needed a 1200 squarefoot chiller room and that
chiller room ended up at 1200square feet and it works just
(14:37):
right.
It's not too big and it didn'thave to change in design.
And a big part of us being ableto meet a challenging schedule
on that particular project wasthe fact that we were able to
pin the MEP system rooms intothe plan with a high degree of
confidence that their size waspretty darn close to right.
That takes some experience andit takes some knowledge and
(15:00):
trust from the MEP team and thearchitectural team working
together to make something likethat happen.
You can't order a unit if youdon't know how big the space is
that it has to fit in.
Nicolas Igl (15:10):
Yeah, a lot of that is building.
It's building the system typebased upon knowledge of this
product type and this type ofbuilding that we're building.
So in order to get the earlyprocurement you know some of
those initial questions that weask the owner we start building
the size of the equipment rightaway.
Matt Gerstner (15:31):
I'm going to just take a step back for a second
here.
So for some of our listenerstuning into an architecture and
design podcast, they may beasking why are we talking so
heavily about MEP for high tech?
So when we're thinking about ahigh tech building, how much
space does MEP actually take up?
(15:53):
Because I'm guessing that is animportant driving factor even
for this podcast.
Nate Roisen (15:59):
I like to think of it when you open up the hood of
your car and you look at theengine and there's like tubes
running everywhere and parts andpieces and they all kind of fit
snugly together.
I think our projects in thescience and tech market are like
a car at 100 times the scalewhere if you could pull the roof
off our building and look downin it, it would be just like
(16:19):
looking at an engine, wherethere's all kinds of different
things overlapping on each otherrooms relating to each other in
specific ways, circulationsystems, so on and so forth.
And it's not that there's aspecific percentage, that's MEP
space, it's that the entireproject is MEP space.
It's all about trying to getthat arrangement of these
(16:39):
different systems to work sothat there's a harmony and a
connection between everythingthat works and is serviceable
and is affordable and all theseother different things we need
to do.
Bill McKoskey (16:50):
The building is just an enclosure for my
mechanical system.
Nate Roisen (16:54):
That's a fantastic way to put it, and I used to be
offended when I heard people saythe longer I work in this
system, the more I nod my headand I go yeah, exactly.
Matt Gerstner (17:04):
So, thinking about that then, Nate, I'm
guessing that it's just we're onboard just to try and make it
all look real nice.
Nate Roisen (17:13):
No, it's, it's.
It's more than that, matt, ok.
Ok.
There is an element of that,though, where, a th en o th d,
it has to be a building thatpeople want to work in, and so
conversations about how do webring daylight into the spaces,
what does the break room looklike, conversations about how do
we bring daylight into thespaces, what does the break room
look like, how do we get thebreak room as close as possible
(17:36):
to the gowning room in the floorplan so that, when people are
taking their break, they're notspending their time off work
having to walk a mile to theirbreak spot All those
conversations are reallyimportant.
It needs to work , but it'salso about thinking about the
building as a system, andarchitecture is a key part of
the system.
It needs to function, it needsto make sense, and we all need
to think of ourselves, as thosemechanical rooms that aren't
(17:58):
pretty in the traditional senseat the end of the day are every
bit as important and require allthe attention to detail that
you would give a public lobby orsomething like that.
Matt Gerstner (18:07):
And what you were saying then.
What I hear also is thatadjacencies is incredibly
important for this type ofproject, from like staff
movements to particularequipment needing to be in
particular places in relation toother spaces.
Nate Roisen (18:27):
You know, at the end of the day there's also
sophisticated equipment,manufacturing equipment that's
going to go in these spaces, andso there will be, as those
equipment vendors come on board,proliferations of their
equipment.
You'll start off and they'llsay, oh, we have a vacuum pump
we need for this piece ofequipment, and then pretty
quickly it's four vacuum pumpsand then it's 10.
(18:47):
And you're kind of left tryingto figure out how to get these
pieces into place.
Having that knowledge or havingthat thought process up front
is also really important.
How do we build thatflexibility in so that as the
owner equipment comes on board,they have the space they need
and the flexibility to makethose connections and actually
do the work they need to do inthe building?
Bill McKoskey (19:09):
And the flexibility to change that tool
out in six months, because thetechnology changes so quickly in
semiconductor and med tech thatwhat we're installing day one
probably isn't even in thebuilding day.
You know three, four and five.
Nicolas Igl (19:24):
Sometimes we don't even know exactly what tools are
going to be installed in thebuilding until we get closer to
the end of construction.
So as we think through whatservices we might need to serve
these individual tools, we haveto provide some level of
flexibility or ability to addmaybe additional specialty gases
or pipe systems down the road.
Nate Roisen (19:47):
Or that scenario planning for what does it look
like when the building grows?
What footprint for majormechanical electrical equipment
is just there, but empty on dayone, so that when the building
needs to double in size, you canbring another chiller online or
whatever the piece of equipmentmight be.
How does that work relative tothe site and some of those other
(20:07):
constraints that you inevitablyrun into?
How are they going to actuallybuild it when the building's
operational and they need toexpand it?
What does that process looklike and what decisions can you
make up front to make thatprocess easier?
There's all that layer ofinformation, too, that comes
into play as you're thinkingthrough these projects.
Nicolas Igl (20:25):
That starts to think a little bit Nate about
how do you work in existingbuildings, right?
Because one of the bigchallenges we have when we come
in and meet with new clients andthey're doing their process
right now and where you need toimplement an addition or bring
in additional tools andequipment, but we can't affect
(20:46):
their manufacturing while that'shappening, their manufacturing
while that's happening.
So that goes into a lot ofdiscussion on either phasing
mechanical systems installationor adding separate ones and
cross-tying the mechanicalsystems back.
So it's a process that needs tobe completely thought through
(21:07):
and sometimes that does drivewhere the systems and where the
addition can occur on a building.
Bill McKoskey (21:13):
Another factor on these projects is redundancy.
You know you lose a unit in anoffice building, people are
uncomfortable, but if you lose aunit in a semiconductor fab or
a med tech facility, you mightbe losing a million dollars an
hour.
So certainly, nick, you couldprobably comment better on it,
but your designs incorporate apretty good backup system for
(21:35):
all parts and pieces.
Nicolas Igl (21:36):
The redundancy and resiliency is a big concern on
these project types here andeach client might have a
different level of what theyconsider redundant right?
Some people, if you have an Nplus one fan in an air handler,
you can still get along untilyou can get in and replace and
fix that fan.
Others require a completeredundant air handling unit and
(22:00):
that's where we get indiscussion of it.
Is it a full size unit, so 100%capacity, or is it maybe two
units at 75% capacity?
The budgeting and impacts tothe space planning is where all
those discussions start to occur.
Bill McKoskey (22:15):
And that's where the contractor prices up both
options and you present it tothe owner and they can decide
how to spend their money wisely.
Nate Roisen (22:23):
And it's never really a blank check either.
As important as redundancy is,there's very few owners that are
willing to say I'll paywhatever it takes to be fully
backed up.
A lot of times, when they seewhat it takes in terms of the
size of the generator or thenumber of units, they go okay.
Let's have a value discussionhere about the cost benefit and
the risk versus the possibility,and I think that's really where
(22:45):
the design team is a valuablevoice to be able to work through
those trade-offs, bring someperspectives from other clients,
other approaches, and kind offind the thing that fits the
budget, fits the piece ofequipment, going down thinking
that there is a two year leadtime to get a replacement for it
and that would be when you'retalking millions of dollars a
(23:20):
day, as you mentioned, Bill, inlosses If they have to shut down
, that is you can't support thatin your business.
Matt Gerstner (23:26):
It's the redundancy I can hear is
absolutely critical.
Is there any other advice thatyou would have for owners that
are heading into a project ofthis type?
Nate Roisen (23:36):
We started talking about existing buildings a
minute ago and then theconversation switched.
But existing buildings ingeneral are challenging.
An existing building that mightbe on the market and relatively
affordable, and the client seesit as an attractive offer, but
it takes a lot of work to get itup to speed and knowing what
(23:56):
kind of work it'll take and thesmallest little things can trip
you up.
The energy code has changedsince the 80s, so there might be
a building that requires a lotof additional insulation in
order to meet current energycodes.
The slope of the roof might notbe advantageous to what you
want to be doing in the futurestate, and so you have to do a
lot of work to upgrade the roofin order to get the work in the
(24:19):
spaces below away from thingslike roof drains and so forth.
So some of those really nuancedsmall details can pose huge
challenges when you're workingin an existing building.
So going in with your eyes wideopen and really thinking
through and understanding whatyou've got in front of you is
incredibly important.
Nicolas Igl (24:35):
One of the other challenges with an existing
building really has to do withthe vertical height.
We've been talking a lot aboutspace planning.
When you think of looking downat a building, where does the
mechanical systems reside?
But really that distributionand how much room we need above
that ceiling can be a bigchallenge if you're going into
an existing building, because alot of these buildings might
(24:58):
have a 12-foot clear heightthere.
But typically with these typesof buildings we'll need
something on the order of 14foot plus, depending upon what
type of room we're putting inthere, and that's assuming a
more traditional 8 to 10 footceiling there.
Some of these semiconductorfacilities we will have all the
(25:20):
mechanicals located above, soall the air handlers located
above, feeding down into aplenum and then recirculate down
, even to a sub fab and thencome back up and around.
So you might have a three-storybuilding and really only one
floor of it is actual productionspace.
Bill McKoskey (25:37):
I think my advice to an owner would be to
seriously consider a designassist concept, which is crazy
selfish.
I know being the contractor,but I do believe there's a lot
of value in bringing thecontractor on board early so
that they can share theirexpertise.
Certainly, there's a lot oftrust that goes along with that,
so hopefully you have a trustedcontractor in your backyard.
(25:59):
The concept's been great for alot of projects that these three
firms have worked on together.
Matt Gerstner (26:05):
Well, I can certainly see the benefit in
that, and when you had mentionedearlier about being able to
just start to throw numbers atthings as things are being
designed, just having that skillon the team and that set of
information as you're trying todesign and things are actually
going in the ground as you'restill designing, and being able
to rapidly come through withnumbers and information, I can
(26:29):
see that being critical for aclient.
Nate Roisen (26:31):
Yeah, and thinking through on the other end of the
timeline, as the client is doingtheir pro forma for the project
and deciding how much moneythey can spend and how much
product they need to make torecoup their investment Having
the production people really,really aligned with what the
leadership is asking for interms of money.
Product translates into money.
(26:52):
It is an incredibly importantthing If a project has been sold
to a leadership group as beingable to make a thousand things a
year and the production peoplesay that there's no way we can
only make 750, that's a hugedisconnect that before you even
think about hiring a designer ora contractor, you need to be on
the same page.
(27:13):
It sets ourselves up for realchallenges if we're constantly
chasing an unrealisticproduction goal or maybe not
even unrealistic, that might notbe the right word but a
ambitious production goal thatthe client's team isn't fully
bought into.
Matt Gerstner (27:29):
So, in thinking about the entire project, we've
talked about constructionprocess, we've talked about
design process, but what aboutoperations and maintenance?
Nicolas Igl (27:40):
When you start to think about operation
maintenance, you need to be ableto sit down and talk with the
facility's personnel as part ofthe design process.
You need to be able tounderstand what their specific
requirements are, what they dealwith on a day-to-day basis,
what some of their hot-buttonitems are or what issues they
typically see, so that you canhave them addressed and designed
(28:04):
into the mechanical solutionfor the project.
Bill McKoskey (28:08):
And I think if you have a 3D project and you
have a BIM savvy engineeringcontractor, you can actually fly
through the model with thatmaintenance engineer and talk
about here's where the valvesare when you have a leak, here's
where you close them and here'syour access for filter
change-outs, so that they canparticipate in those decisions
early on, Anytime.
(28:29):
They're part of the decision.
They're going to like the endproduct that much more so it's
great to pull them in early,walk them through the model and
have them be part of the team.
Matt Gerstner (28:38):
I can see that being beneficial too, just in
that they're there daily and intheir process they are seeing
things that do need maintenance,that do need adjustments, more
frequently than we're aware of.
Bill McKoskey (28:51):
They probably have a scenario now where
they're doing it unsafely.
Nate Roisen (29:06):
So it's great to get their perspective on how to
do it not only efficiently butalso safely, whether it's
changing a filter or changing amotor or a belt or whatever it
happens to be.
And I think there's a lot ofexciting things that I'm hearing
about in terms of how computingpower can help facilities,
people maintain their buildingand ultimately translates into
design concepts.
But if you have an artificialintelligence system that is
geared towards a specific set ofoperations, a computer can
monitor a lot more sensors thana person can and being able to
(29:28):
flag items for attention.
But you can have 10 times thesensors but the same person can
keep the same eye on them withthe assistance of a computer
system.
Some of that stuff getsincredibly exciting because it
only creates more opportunitiesfor efficiency and for energy
savings and really valuablethings that can come out of that
.
So I'm excited to see wherethings end up here over the
(29:51):
coming five, 10 years as thosesystems come online and we start
to grapple with them in thedesign phase.
Matt Gerstner (29:58):
Do any of you have any stories of challenges
or lessons learned that may helpsome of our clients or people
thinking about you know they'vegot a project coming up that
they need to need to dosomething with.
Nicolas Igl (30:11):
One lesson learned that I would say I've came
across in my career really hasto do with setting the design
requirements your temperature,humidity in this space and
making sure you keep that inmind, especially when we go
through the VE process.
This particular project theowner had low temperature, low
humidity requirements and wegave them the design and then we
(30:35):
weren't involved, dunham wasn'tinvolved with the VE approach
on it, and the contractor thatwas involved said I can save you
a million dollars if we put aDX gas-fired air handler up here
.
And then they went that route,got the construction done and
then called us up and said, hey,it doesn't work.
And we said, well, how's thatdesking system working?
(30:55):
And they said we don't have one.
We beat it out of the project.
So it's understanding what yourrequirements are and that the
equipment meets that and keepingthat in mind while you're
trying to save money.
Matt Gerstner (31:07):
You can't just VE things out without really
figuring out what you're takingout and what the impact is going
to be, and the design team isgoing to be critical in that
function.
Nicolas Igl (31:18):
Yeah, we're all here to help and get you to the
right solution withunderstanding what the budget
and the operational impactsmight be.
Bill McKoskey (31:26):
It's important that every VE idea has a list of
pros and cons because, again,it's the owner's money.
They got to figure out how tospend it and they may be willing
to take some risks on RH, butnot always.
Sometimes you have limits thatyou got to be careful.
I've been doing this so longand I don't know if anyone has
ever said this job is underbudget.
(31:47):
It just doesn't happen.
So VE happens on every singleproject.
So they're certainly makingsacrifices of some sort to save
a few bucks and if it'sshort-sighted you get in that
scenario like Nick described andit probably would have cost 10
times to add it after the factthan it would have been to
(32:09):
install it initially correctly.
Matt Gerstner (32:11):
Well, that's something I don't think a lot of
owners realize that when you'redesigning something and you
have that price for it, thatprice is the price for going in
the first time.
If you take something out ofthat equation and you start the
construction process, when itcomes back and you realize you
need it and it's coming in afterthe fact, it's not the same
(32:33):
cost.
In a lot of cases that costgoes up because there's all
sorts of work that needs tochange now.
Nate Roisen (32:39):
As I think about our most successful projects,
the ones that come to mind arethe ones that had the most
engaged staff from a clientstandpoint.
It takes a lot of work to run abuilding or to do the work or
the lab testing or theproduction work in one of these
facilities, and so it's not easyto say, at the end of your 40
(32:59):
or 50 hour a week job, comeanswer a bunch of questions from
a design team.
But the more space that's builtinto those people's schedule to
actually do it, the better theend result will be.
We need that engagement withthe client right up front and
really that's a leadershipdecision.
Right as folks are thinkingabout getting a project kicked
off, they need to be thinkingabout their people being really
(33:22):
engaged with the design so thatthe end product is as good as it
can possibly be.
Bill McKoskey (33:26):
It's a great example.
You need to somehow free themup because they're busy with
their day job.
How are they going to helpbuild an addition or a new plant
?
Nate Roisen (33:35):
Well, and it's the leadership that needs to free
them up.
The leaders of the organizationneed to make sure their people
have the space to make gooddecisions or work with us to
make good decisions.
Matt Gerstner (33:47):
So I just want to thank you all for joining us
today.
This conversation has beenenlightening.
There's a lot that goes on whenwe're looking at high-tech
spaces.
There's a lot of information,there's a lot of knowledge that
needs to be shared and they'revery complicated.
So thank you all for your timeand insights.
Appreciate all your time today.
Thanks for the opportunity,thank you.
(34:07):
This has been Side of Designfrom BWBR, brought to you
without any paid advertisementsor commercials.
If you found value in whatyou've heard today, give us a
like, leave us a comment or,better yet, share us with your
network.
You can also reach out to us ifyou'd like to share an idea for
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(34:28):
Email us at sideofdesign atbwbrcom.
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