78 - Laura Cohen defines "healthy" and explains fatphobia - Sideline Sisters

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hey ladies, my name is Jenny Chaffetz and I am the host of
Sideline Sisters. Are you a busy mom, powerhouse
professional or high achieving go getter?
This show is for no BS women whowant to be inspired to get off
the sidelines of their lives. Ever feel like you're playing
small or safe or just on autopilot?

(00:23):
My guests are relatable women who've gone on a journey,
overcome challenges, and live toshare the lessons that we want
to hear. These conversations will be
funny, sad, scary, wise, encouraging, and most of all,
real. So whether you're driving, doing
chores, exercising, walking the dog, or just laying on the

(00:45):
couch, settle in and enjoy. I want to invite you to take
back your power, reignite your passions, and step off the
sidelines. Let's go.
Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode of the Sideline
Sisters Podcast. My name is Jenny Chaffetz and I
am your host. I'm also a life and breath work
coach because I love talking with and supporting midlife

(01:08):
women as they explore and want to heal things that aren't going
well in their lives. Maybe it's decades old beliefs
or habits, or maybe it's currentfriction or conflicting
relationship dynamics. Perhaps it's job change, move,

(01:30):
friendship issues, aging parents, difficulty with
children. Whatever it is, if you're a
woman who wants to feel happier,calmer, more confident, more
excited about life, then let's talk.
I would love to guide you with the tools that have been so

(01:51):
instrumental in my own life. Things that I do on a regular
basis that help me prioritize mytime, honor my feelings, and
move in the direction I want to move in as opposed to staying
stuck, complacent, trapped, and otherwise disappointed with
life. So my information is in the show

(02:12):
notes for how to connect with me, whether it's social media,
e-mail, website, it's up to you.But know that I am here.
You are not alone and I am readyto support you.
Now today's guest on the show isLaura Cohen and we have a lively
and actually at the start heatedconversation about health.

(02:37):
Now The thing is, I could have edited out our little debate,
but I kept it in this episode for authenticity purposes
because I want you to see that it's OK for two grown women to
express themselves and disagree or require clarification.

(02:59):
It's all OK. We aren't mad at each other.
We didn't end the conversation. We didn't block each other or
trash each other online. It's all good.
So I just want you to appreciatethe genuine nature of this
conversation. Now, let me tell you about
Laura. When the world shut down in
2020, Laura Cohen's world turnedupside down in a much more

(03:22):
personal way. Her 16 year old daughter
daughter was diagnosed with an eating disorder.
As a former registered dietitian, Laura found herself
navigating unfamiliar and emotionally challenging terrain,
seeking answers far beyond clinical training.
What she discovered sparked A transformation not just in how
she supported her daughter, but in how she viewed food Wellness

(03:44):
and the broader culture around both.
Today, Laura serves as a lead family mentor with EQUIP,
helping other families find their footing during some of the
most challenging moments of their lives.
She has shifted both personally and professionally from a
background rooted in traditionaldietetics to embracing an anti
diet recovery informed approach.Laura holds a Bachelor of

(04:05):
Science and coordinated Dietetics from Syracuse
University, a Master of Science in Food and Nutrition from NYU,
and an Associate's degree in Culinary Arts from Johnson and
Wales University. Laura brings both lived
experience and professional insight to the conversation.
Grounded, compassionate, and always learning alongside the
family she serves. What I have learned in over 75

(04:28):
conversations is that I have my set of beliefs that come from my
experience, my background, the people and events that I've
encountered. But that doesn't mean they are
carved in concrete. They are not scripture.
I am open to hearing the wisdom of other people because I want

(04:50):
to be educated. I want to grow and evolve and be
the most compassionate, empathetic person that I can be.
And that will only happen if I allow myself to hear other
people. You know, there's an expression
we were given 2 ears, one mouth because we are meant to listen

(05:10):
twice as much as we speak. So that's what I love about
these conversations. This show the beautiful women
that I interview is they speak, I hear we all get to get curious
based on. The words that are shared.
And one last thing I'll say is while her bio mentions her

(05:31):
family's personal experience with an eating disorder, it
doesn't exactly come up in this conversation.
We talk more broadly about Wellness and society's
expectations or perception of what healthy means.
But if you're interested in hearing a conversation about

(05:52):
eating disorders, please let me know and I will arrange for it
in a future episode. Now, I hope you enjoyed this
conversation with Laura Cohen. Let's get into it.
Welcome, Laura to the Sideline Sisters podcast.
I'm so happy you're here. Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me here.
So right off, the audience already knows a little bit about

(06:13):
your line of work, your background, so I'm going to dive
in. First question that I'm going to
ask you, do you define yourself as healthy or do you define
yourself as someone who cares about your own health and
Wellness? I think that there's a lot of

(06:34):
different definitions of healthy.
What does healthy mean to you? So right next to you.
Yeah, I consider myself healthy because I am very in touch with
what feels good in my body. And it's not defined by a social

(06:56):
construct at all. But I'm at a place, being 54, I
had to think how old I was because I just had a birthday.
Happy birthday. Thank you.
That health means so many different things and I won't let
someone else define it because someone else's definition of
health is is, quite frankly, bullshit.
Yeah, very well said. All right.

(07:18):
So that leads me to my next question, which is.
How? Do you navigate your own health
and Wellness as someone who toldme moments ago that you are anti
Wellness? I didn't say I was anti
Wellness. I said I believe in Wellness.
I don't the Wellness like whole community because the word has

(07:41):
been so Co opted OK. I believe in people being well.
Because I wrote down anti diet, anti Wellness.
Anti diet, yes. OK, I don't know why I wrote
down anti Wellness then I put. It together.
I believe people. I believe that people should
feel well. I also believe that it is up to
a person to decide what they want to do.

(08:03):
If someone decides that, you know, eating fruits and
vegetables isn't for them. If someone decides that they,
you know, want to live in the body that they have and other
people look at them and say they're not healthy and shame
them, that I feel people have a choice of their own health.
Like people make it that if you're not always trying to do
all the quote UN quote, very heavily air quoted healthy

(08:24):
things, then you're wrong. And I think that everyone has
their own autonomy to decide what they want to do.
But don't you think that there is some?
It's predominantly Gray, but isn't there some black and white
like if? If I was. 400 lbs and said that
I feel awesome having Coca-Cola and animal crackers every day.

(08:48):
You don't think that there's an element of that that is just
inherently unhealthy? The size of someone's body
doesn't make you inherently unhealthy.
You could be 400 lbs and you canhave Coca-Cola.
And I forgot the other thing yousay.
I think animal crackers. Yeah.
I mean, you feel good. There's no health markers
besides weight. Weight is not a health marker

(09:10):
that I don't understand. OK.
You could have a £400 person whocould be a heck of a lot
healthier than someone who weighs 98 lbs.
Oh, for sure. But do you think that there's
any bit of the person who is if someone's listening and they
they have been told or are LED to believe that they are

(09:31):
morbidly obese, OK, so let's just say someone's £400.
If that person is is almost gaslighting themselves to say,
but I feel great, how do they even know how?
Like you've been in this space for so long and you appear to be
sound, to be connected to your body in a way that you

(09:54):
understand what feels good, whatdoesn't feel good?
Is it possible that someone really is, even if somehow the
markers, the cholesterol, the blood pressure, the sugar, the
blood glucose, if all of that issomehow in the normal range, but
they are really heavy, is it possible that they've convinced

(10:16):
themselves they feel good? Like maybe it's normal to them
to not go for a run or a long walk or play tennis, so they
don't know that they maybe coulddo those things more easily if
they were £100 less. We've only been recording for a
couple minutes but. I'm sorry, not trying to spark a

(10:36):
fight. Yeah, I just feel like all
you're saying there is that someone is not healthy because
of the number on the scale. All their you're saying all
their markers are fine? It is that first.
Is that even possible? Of course it is OK 100.
Percent health at every size Haze.
I mean, I have the book. Yep, health at every size.

(10:57):
And this is the problem is that just because someone weighs 400
lbs, society is so fat phobic that they think, well that
person, they're just lazy, they don't want to extracise.
How could they really feel good?I know people that are that
right. I'm happy to hear that because
like you and. I feel bad for them because

(11:18):
society's saying things like, well, there's no way that you
could feel healthy. Right.
And I I guess I was just trying to be devil's advocate and
saying do they if they are proneto a lazy life, do they not
know? But we don't know if they're
prone to a. Lazy life.
That's why I said if. If they are prone to a not very
active life, how do they know that?

(11:39):
Perhaps walking a mile would hurt them, But you know, how do
they know how that would feel? Because maybe they do walk a
mile. I mean, I know people in larger
boxes, they're very started. With the if, if, if so, if the
£400 person is not active, OK, they might not know, despite the
markers being positively presented.

(12:01):
They might not know that they don't feel great in that body
the way you feel great in yours.How about if the person weighs
160 lbs but never has exercised minute in their life?
Would you be asking them the same question you're asking the
£400 person? I mean, I don't ask.

(12:23):
These questions with that right?Right, right, right.
For sure. And, and look, I, I listened to
a Ted talk recently of someone who it was a pediatrician.
I don't know, maybe you've seen it, maybe it's gone viral.
I don't know. It's a pediatrician who called
herself out and changed her waysbecause she had unintentionally
fat shamed a patient one year. Then the person comes back a

(12:46):
year later, had done something awful to herself, like, you
know, crash dieted, deprived herself in unimaginable ways not
unimaginable to you but to others came back and she was
small. And the doctor said, oh, my God,
what happened? What, You know, your chart is

(13:06):
very different this year than last year.
And she said, well, you told me I was fat, so I fixed it.
And the doctor was like, holy shit, I have to work on myself
because as a practitioner, especially with children, I
fucked up. Yep, I see it everyday and
medical fat phobia is absolutelydevastating.

(13:30):
And when you don't live in a larger body you can.
I mean I don't live in a larger body so it's never happened to
me. I get the opposite stuff, but I
wouldn't want to go to the doctor.
That's why. That's why a lot of times, you
know, you'll have studies and you'll be like, oh, well, this
is higher and bigger bodies. I'm like, well, because they're
not going to the doctor. Because why would you go to the

(13:51):
doctor when every time you go tothe doctor, they're telling you,
well, you need to lose weight. What are you doing?
And you think this person doesn't know or, or their entire
life probably hasn't tried to lose weight, right.
Yeah. Weight loss is so complicated.
It's not about just eating less and moving more.
There's so much and all they're being is being shamed.

(14:11):
They can't get surgeries. They can't do that.
They can't do at my at my pediatrician's office.
I go to a pediatrician at my. Primary care is.
At my primary care doctor's office the last year the the
waiting, not the waiting room. The exam room was really small
and it was very interesting to see the setup because they had a

(14:32):
chair that was big enough for someone in a larger body.
But the scale was in the corner of the room and the exam table
was in the way. There is no way.
And I'm a small person. I live in a small body.
I had trouble getting over to the scale and right there is
medical fat phobia because they don't think about that anyone.

(14:54):
It it, it, it, it, it was so upsetting to me to see.
And that's a very small, small, small example.
So no, they don't want to go to the doctor.
They're they're not getting a lot of life saving treatments
and tests because the doctor be like, oh, we can't do that
because you need to lose weight 1st.
And they can't lose weight because it's it weight loss,

(15:15):
just it's, it's a hard thing to do.
And I don't find, maybe you, maybe you see this, but I
haven't necessarily found a Doctor Who knows shit about
losing weight and I I'm not. Because it's because weight loss
is not sustainable. Long term weight loss isn't
sustainable. I mean changing your patterns or

(15:37):
you know, like. So instead of waking up and
having a big gulp and a candy bar, you could change that
habit. You could.
That doesn't mean that you're going to go.
Back it doesn't but but it couldmean that you shed some it could
like that could be a sustainablehabit that.
I'm all about changing habits ifsomeone wants to do it, but
changing the habit shouldn't be linked to what's on the scale.

(15:59):
I'm a big proponent of doing healthy habits if you're
choosing to. Now, if someone chooses to wake
up and have a Big Gulp and a candy bar, that's their choice.
I am not going to shame someone for those choices.
That's what they want to do. That's their life.
But I am a fan of doing healthy habits if that's something
that's interesting to you. I'm not a fan of looking at the
scale. That's the difference for people
like you're not into health and Wellness.

(16:20):
I'm like, right. I was a dietitian with my
masters in nutrition. Of course I care about Wellness.
Of course I want people to feel the best that they can feel.
But being in a smaller body doesnot equate health.
It also doesn't equate how you feel because I as I work with
eating disorders and they're literally the whole thing is the
smallest bodies and the majorityof my patients who actually have

(16:43):
anorexia are not in a small body.
Yep. And that's the whole other thing
is you could have someone, and Idon't ever use numbers, but
we're talking about 400 lbs, which I, I'm very adverse to
even saying that. But someone in a larger body
could have a much more significant eating disorder than
someone in a smaller body for sure.

(17:05):
The difference is that phobia because they're not getting the
treatment or the care that they need or their doctor doesn't
ever think about it that they'recompletely, we're talking about
being malnourished. They could be completely
malnourished. Well, how could you be
malnourished if you weigh 400 lbs?
Of course you're eating all day,and literally they could be
eating 100 calories a day. Right, right.
So I mean, if you could start from scratch and revamp the

(17:26):
entire, come on, let's just playpretend the whole system, like
if you could control the messaging and the approaches to
health and Wellness, whatever that is, what would you do?
I mean, you wouldn't put people on a scale, You wouldn't pull
out a measuring tape. What would you do to assess?

(17:48):
Is there a questionnaire? Are there certain things you
would? You would.
Say I would get into the social determinants of health, which
most people don't know what those are.
Connection, sleep, safety, access to food.
Dare I even say I'm not? I'm not saying healthy food, but
food. Right, right.
Nutrient more have more nutrients in that healthcare

(18:11):
stress. I was waiting for that one.
When I say exercise, some type of joyful movement is very
That's all stuff that matters. Oh, for sure.
Oh, weigh the number on the scale, because you could have
people on both spectrums. Yeah, I reached out.
As embarrassed and ashamed as I felt.
I reached out to someone that I know well, who's a medical

(18:36):
doctor and asked about, this wasprobably 1214 years ago.
Let's say I reached out, I was struggling with my weight.
I was in the process of going toWeight Watchers, taking
Hydroxycut, depriving myself over exercising, shaming myself
in the mirror, trying on genes on a daily basis as my, you

(19:01):
know, your measurement. Yeah.
And I call this person because they're a doctor, because
they've always been thin, because they work in the space
of helping people with they. Must know everything, right?
And the answer was cut calories and start running.
I was I was on the phone with this person as I was Laura

(19:24):
literally walking into the YMCA to go to tennis class because I
remember it as clear as day. I'm holding my tennis bag, I'm
about to walk into the Y and Nope, tennis isn't good enough.
You got to start running. It's all about.
Running and whatever you're eating.
Just like, stop, yeah, stop having so much of it.

(19:44):
I'm like, but I'm on Weight Watchers.
I only have 21 points a day. What I do?
Yep. Yeah, and, and like you've said,
I mean, as far as not wanting tocall it health food, but if
we're talking about nutrient density at the time, Weight
Watchers, it was one point, thiswas years ago, one point for an

(20:05):
apple or one point. They don't sell these anymore.
But I don't know if you remember, they used to make
these Hostess cupcakes that were3 mini ones in a package.
OK. So they were like. 3 bytes.
That package was one point. Or a medium sized Granny Smith
one point. Well, I chose the Hostess
Cupcakes course. You did right, as would

(20:26):
anything. Even though I was, you know
what, 3538 years old, something like that.
I I knew that was not the nutritious choice, but it tasted
better or I thought it tasted better because I didn't even
appreciate the taste of an appleat the time because I associate.
I still make sure the Hostess come take over tasted.
Come on, I. I I didn't see apples as tasty,

(20:49):
I saw them as healthy. Yep, I saw them as diet food.
And I just was horrified that that was the answer coming from
a doctor. So.
It's surprising. Right, I was gonna say, by and
large, that's what practitioners, you know, you
walk in, you're quote fat and you're told to lose weight, but

(21:10):
not how. And when the how is given, it's
so fucking far fetched and vaguethat you walk out of there more
confused than when you walked in.
No. Imagine living in a larger body.
First of all, why would you wantto go to the doctor for them to
to tell you you just need to lose weight.
But you suck. Yeah.
They can't tell you how because they don't know how.

(21:32):
Right. Well, now it's GLP ones.
I'm not. We're not even going to go down
that. We could every everyone I've
started the conversation with. Is.
I don't know, is is a huge proponent.
So I was like, OK, I guess we'renot having a conversation then
because. Again, body autonomy, you do
what you want but at least know what you're doing.
But actually did put a post up the other day.

(21:53):
Something about my post was thatwas very interesting though to
see how people react. I did put a post up about how
eating disorders are increasing in middle age, which is very
true. Interesting.
I have a lot. I have a good amount of patients
coming in, you know, I'd say thespouses usually but our age and

(22:14):
some of them have battled EDS their whole life.
But but Even so middle age and Iwas just saying now that we see
the GLP ones forget anyone accepting their body, right?
You look at the runways now and everyone is ckectic and thin
looking like this. And you know, because they're
they're being so abused, right? We've turned the clock back for

(22:37):
any of the work that we've done about appreciating your body for
what it is, not having to be so thin.
And that was the post that GLP ones actually, because you can
get them so readily. We know that there is, you know,
someone who's predisposed to an eating disorder.
OK, It's very important to say that someone who's pre and you

(22:58):
don't necessarily know it predisposed to an eating
disorder. You know, they get medication to
lose weight and that's just setting off an eating disorder
and people don't understand that.
So it's so interesting because, you know, people who know me are
like, yes, you know, this is great information.
I'm not saying not to take GLP once I am saying eating
disorders are at an all time high in midlife for people to be

(23:21):
aware of that because I want people to realize, Oh my God,
maybe I am struggling. Like maybe I should get help,
right. And then we've got this over
here. That's, that's, that's
increasing that. So GLP ones are, you know, you
can literally my mailman can, well, literally my mailman can
give them to me. The things that I, I, I see on

(23:42):
Facebook groups are so downrightscary.
My point is I was getting private messages, not
necessarily people even wanting to put it in, in the private
messages from people they know, long messages all explaining why
they're taking GLP ones. And I'm like, I'm not telling
you not to take it. Right, like.

(24:02):
I had to hear it helped my bloodsugar and not at any point ever
telling someone not to do something and and and I mean I'm
getting the life stories. It's like I don't know guilty
because I said I don't know. And all I said to each and every
one of them, whether they they commented in the post Oregon to
me was could you read my post because that is not what I'm
saying. I'm talking about how eating

(24:25):
disorders are on a rise in middle-aged women.
I go. That's my concern.
And I just, I mean, I personallyfeel like weight loss medication
should require therapy. That's just my own.
My own soapbox. Be comfortable with your body,
like that's where I am OK with JLP ones when you're actually

(24:45):
are at a place that you've made peace with who you are and then
you can do that. The work needs to be done first,
not in. And if this is what they want to
do and it's making them happy and they're not living with side
effects and they're living theirlife, not a problem, like fine,
go, go do it. I mean, I had someone reach out
who was like, you know, she wenton a GLP 1.
I don't remember why it was. It was something with diabetes

(25:07):
or something. And she said that her OCD, she
has OCD and it actually really quieted the OCD thoughts and
great. I said to her, I was like, I'm
not telling you again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Post is not about that. You do you.
And I was like, if you found something that is making your
quality of life better, mazel tov.
You know, like, I am not againstthat.

(25:27):
I get so misunderstood. And people say like, kind of
when you started with the beginning, you're not for
Wellness. I'm like, no.
I just, I wrote that down. I even said that.
But but I'm using that as a point.
Like I want everyone to to feel the best they can feel, but they
also have to decide if that's important to that, right?
Like I'm not going to say to someone, well, don't you want to
feel the best you can? That's their choice, right?

(25:50):
That's someone else's choice that I can't make for that.
In the same way, if someone has severe and enduring anorexia, I
want nothing more than to be able to help them.
They also have their own choicesto make.
It's their life. It's their body.
I'm going to fight for heck to get them to help.
You know, they can be there because full recovery is
possible. But at the end of the day, you

(26:10):
know, and some things we are, I mean, that's a, that's a, a big
example, but on the whole other spectrum.
But yeah, I, I don't know. I think we all have a body
autonomy. Hey ladies, I'm interrupting the
show to tell you about Gentle Coaching.
Gentle coaching is my business. It is where ioffer life coaching

(26:31):
and breathwork services to midlife women and their young
adult daughters. And there are a few different
ways that you can stay in touch with me so you know everything
that's going on. The 1st is Instagram at Gentle
Coaching. The second is Facebook at Gentle
Coaching. The third is on my website,
gentlecoaching.com and those areall gentle with AJ, by the way.

(26:54):
And the 4th is my e-mail newsletter.
Are you on the list? You can grab the links to all of
those things in the show notes. Now let's get back to the
episode. I want to talk about my dog.
Your dog is so beautiful and clearly does not have news and
shouldn't we all live to just want to play with a ball, run in
the snow, eat some poo? Like, wouldn't that be the life?

(27:17):
Yeah, I'm just kidding. Give it to me, Jenny.
Go. OK.
All right. So you said midlife women have,
there's this spike in eating disorders, whether it's
diagnosed or or not. You know, there's this fucked up
relationship within us of how wefeel about our appearance or how

(27:37):
we look in the mirror, how we fit in clothes or seats.
Does that affect our relationships with other people?
I think it it all is messy. I mean, you sit with a group of
women anywhere and that's the topic it comes up.
It's inevitable. Something about what they're

(27:58):
eating, what they look like. It's, it's, it's so ingrained in
US and it's so sad. It's such a waste of energy and
things that I think middle-aged women are fucking awesome.
Like we know ourselves. We're done with the bullshit
often. We're trying to figure out
things we like and things we don't like that we don't want to

(28:20):
do anymore. And we're we're starting to be
so comfortable in our proverbialskin, yet society is banging us
down everywhere. Anti ageing.
You need to the wrinkles are bad.
Like it's just everything menopause like does it feel like
shit to have hot flashes all day?
Yes, I'm living it right. And I am so over people bashing.

(28:43):
I mean, menopause is not comfortable.
I'm not saying that it is, but it's like become this thing that
people need to solve. And as you age, your body
changes. That's natural.
Why are we constantly saying that that's a bad thing?
Because it's not. You may not like that your
stomach is a little bit bigger, that you're gaining weight in

(29:05):
the middle of your body. The reason that's happening is
to get you prepared for the nextpart of your life.
You know, old age, you, you wantto be protected a little bit,
right? Like my mom lives in assisted
living. And when I walk, what's not
assisted living, it's independent living.
When I walk around and I see these women, you know, in their
80s, seventies, 80s, nineties, in these really frail bodies and

(29:28):
they're still dieting. And all I'm thinking is, man,
they're going to get sick with something.
And they got no reserves on their body, and they're still
worried about the chocolate cakebecause they're still talking
about it with their. So they shouldn't eat the
chocolate cake. And all I'm thinking is needling
your bones as you get older is not a bad thing.
It's a good thing. And, you know, part of aging

(29:52):
wrinkles, your body changes all those things.
It is natural. And to just completely fight
against it. I'm not saying I'm not getting
my Gray hairs covered up right. Yeah.
I say that all the time. I'm like, I love so much about
aging. Yeah.
And I'm I'm OK to embrace my face as it changes, my body as

(30:13):
it changes. Things.
Just not my fucking Gray hair. That's where I draw the line.
I mean, whatever it is, right? I actually think Gray hair is
beautiful and I wish that I had that.
I mean, at some point, I think some people.
Some people can grow a beautifulsilver head of hair.
That's not the direction I'm going.
Yeah, I mean, I, I think that you choose what's important to

(30:34):
you, but I think it's something about, well, why you almost
like, am I making that choice for me or am I making that
choice or something? That's right.
Oh, for sure. But I, I, I it just the
obsession with, oh, when you getmenopause, you're going to gain
10 lbs, OK, like. And.
Right like it's I, I. It makes me so sad to see such

(30:56):
independent, smart, driven bad ass women dressing about their
bodies changing. It's a GIF and I'm not saying I
like my body everyday. OK, so in one breath you
mentioned how midlife is awesome, we're changing, women

(31:18):
are finally through with caring about XY and Z, and now we're
more liberated and content. And yet there's the surge in the
eating disorders. How does that make sense?
Because. I'm saying I think women are are
badass in their 50s, right? I'm saying that society is

(31:40):
you're being bombarded how you're going to gain weight in
menopause and you should all look like this and you want to
age gracefully and all of that. That's where I see the you know,
the increase. They've been women our age.
We were brought up when diet culture busted out and started.
You know, we're products of a moment on your lips is whatever

(32:01):
on your lifetime. Yeah, on your hips.
Umm, it was it better to be thin.
What is There's all these Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thin and unhappy, happy versus fat and happy or something like
that. Yeah, I mean, and you know, we
were, we were brought up in, youknow, the fat free world and
things and diet culture and you know, men aren't going to love

(32:22):
you if you don't have that perfect body.
And we're a product of that. I actually do facilitate a body
empowerment class. I've men in it too, but it just
tends to usually be women whose loved ones are going through
eating disorder treatment because that I do it at work and
it's so sad and it's an amazing group.

(32:42):
I love it. And they've got loved ones, you
know, going through eating disorder treatment and their own
issues with their own bodies andsociety and trying to explain to
them just to get rid of what society has done to us.
Our age group is tough. Our age group is tough.

(33:02):
And they're still saying, my mom's still dieting.
My, an 80 year old mom. I mean, my parents, my, my yeah,
mother, my stepmothers still talk about their bodies.
And even though they know not totalk about it around me, they
can't help it. I mean, I, when I, when I work
with parents, I'm often talking about that, that older
generation, because then you've got the grandparents.
You don't want to bring the kid in recovery around the

(33:24):
grandparents because the great making comments about the
bodies. Jesus.
OK, Yeah. So as a midlife woman who has
very clear strong values about how to feel in your body and and
walk around the world, how do you personally navigate

(33:45):
relationships with other people?Do you have people in your life
who trigger you? Did you curate a group of
friends that feel the same way that you do?
How have you handled that? And then what is?
And then what is your advice forthe rest of us?
It's really hard. There's definitely people that I
have a hard time being around when all they do is talk about

(34:07):
they should eat this, they shouldn't eat that.
They're on this diet, They're onthat diet.
And it could be spouses. It's not always the women.
I have a really, really, really hard time with it and I choose
to not be around that. There are certain people that I
have to be able to put that up on a shelf and I choose that
the, you know, that there's other parts of our relationship
that's OK, but it's really, really hard.

(34:28):
But there definitely are people that I can't have very deep
relationships with if that's always going to be the topic and
the thought and and the obsession, the over exercising,
I mean all that stuff. Right, So what do you say to the
listener who has friends or family that they spend a lot of

(34:49):
time with but they always end upfeeling shitty about themselves
with and after their time together besides get some new
friends? Well.
Yeah, what I tell people to do. And I mean, you've known me long
enough in the past, you know, hour.
I've learned how to speak up a little bit, and it's not a mean
way. Yeah, cuz it's not well, you

(35:11):
just. Said you lead the empowerment
group, so. Yeah, it's not way you can't do
this. You can't do that.
It's can we find something else to talk about, to say that to
somebody? Like I really want to talk about
other things and also I don't engage in the conversations,
right? I have someone, I have a friend
I haven't seen in a long time. And when I see them, you know,
they clearly have lost a lot of weight.

(35:32):
I'm not going to be the one to be like you lost weight you and
and they're waiting for that. Yeah, Yeah, they are.
I won't do it anymore because I don't know why they've lost
weight and I'm not. I'm not praising weight loss in
my life. I don't think that anyone should
make any comments about anybody's body, no matter what.
And it's even harder when someone's like, or how about
another friend? You should really say something.

(35:53):
They're really proud. I'm like, I just, I don't.
And then if we're sitting there at lunch and they're telling all
how they've lost their weight, Iwouldn't, I actually would
choose to not have some of thoserelationships at that time if
that's all they can talk about, because there's just so much
more to life than talking about someone's body.
I really don't care. That's the truth.
I don't. I just don't.
Pardon the Interruption, but I have to tell you about my

(36:16):
absolute favorite place on planet Earth.
It's called Canyon Ranch. Have you ever heard of it?
It is a Wellness resort and there are several locations in
the United States. I have been to the one in the
Berkshires of Massachusetts and I'm telling you about it so that
you can enjoy 10% off this spectacular place.
Everything from the food, the staff, the facilities, the

(36:38):
workshops, the exercise classes,the overall vibe.
It's first class so I hope you will check it out.
You can book online or over the phone using code sideline to
save 10% And now let's. Get back to the show.
So I'm trying to find a a nice segue for this one.
OK, so as we're talking about friendship, what do you feel at

(37:01):
this stage of your life about friendship either including or
revolving around cocktails? Oh, we're back to that topic.
I like this topic. This one is good.
Had to weave it in. Yeah, yeah.
We were discussing how I, I'm not sober curious.

(37:21):
I'm not sober. I just don't drink a lot.
I have no issues with alcohol. I'm just at a place in my life
that if I like the taste of a cocktail, yeah, I'm going to get
it. I'm going to take 3 sips, I'm
going to be buzzed and that's going to be it.
Ask my family. I'm the cheapest date ever, but
I'll get it really because I like the taste of it.
And I struggle a lot with, I don't even like to call it the

(37:45):
mommy wine culture because I think that's so overused.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I everything being revolved
around alcohol. I definitely have let
friendships over the years go not like, oh, I don't want to be
your friend anymore. Just they fizzled out sure.
And everything revolves around making sure that we can drink
and we can party beforehand, even as couples like that's.

(38:07):
Yeah, yeah. I want to go see a play.
I don't need to go pregame like give me a nice meal like
pregaming to me is give me a nice meal like I want to go to a
fun restaurant. You don't have the cocktail if
it's good, but having to do shots before you do something
like. Wow.
Yeah, yeah. And I I the dry January I think

(38:29):
is absolutely the most amazing thing.
If someone could do dry January and they realize holy shit, I
have a problem and they quit able to have that awareness.
I think that dry January for that is amazing for people that
just do it for a month just to see and make a big deal about

(38:51):
it. And aren't you proud of me?
I haven't drunk a month and I can't wait with there's three
more days and then I can go drinking.
It's just. Let's celebrate February. 1st
it's like going on the whole 30,you know, it's like you're doing
stuff for 30 days, which that's a whole other topic, yes.
Then day 31 it's all done. Like I, I think the question was
the relationships, like my social circle is 100% smaller

(39:14):
over the years because I am not the mom that has the water
bottle here at dance competitions or whatever.
Because I've got vodka in here. And I think it's fun drinking in
front of our kids when we were little.
Like the kids go in the basement, watch a movie and
we're all upstairs drinking. I definitely was not the cool
one in the neighborhood because that just didn't interest me so.

(39:35):
Yeah. It definitely has affected
friendships over the years. Yeah, I mean it.
It's crazy to me. I mean, to be this.
I don't know. No, I guess I, I don't know.
I was an idiot to think that it would be like outgrown at a
certain point. And then when people ask why
aren't I drinking, I don't get that as much now, but Oh my God,

(39:55):
in the past 10 years, like when people be like, well, I don't
understand why you're not drinking.
Like asking me questions. I'm like, does it matter?
What what are what are we 1920 like?
Right, right. Does it?
Matter what, I'm drinking, not drinking.
Like literally being like A's for not drinking.
Yeah. And oh, you're just too healthy
to not drink. Oh, you're a I'm like, no, I
just, I think it comes down to like, I don't personally need to

(40:19):
have a drink. Like I have other things.
And hey, again, no judgement. Someone who comes home and needs
a drink after work and helps them calm down.
That's fine. I I, I I pleased after my days
or sometimes I say wish I I wishI drank, I wish cigarette.
I always say wish cigarettes weren't bad for you like, but
they are. I, I like a cigarette better

(40:41):
than a drink. But no, not going down that
road. But yeah, I just, I think it's
really sad. I think it's really sad what
alcohol has done to our society.I mean, it's always been there
even like, Oh my God, you're like doing yacht rock, right?
Like I love yacht rock, but why does it always have to be late
to drinking? Right?
I, I'm AI did Peloton for a longtime and I still do.

(41:03):
And there are certain Peloton instructors that I don't want to
hear about your drinking. But I don't want to hear.
It like I don't think it's funny.
And again, it's not because I'm sober because I have out.
It's I just don't, I don't know.I just don't think it's funny.
Yeah, you have to be cool at a link and be like, oh, what's in
your water bottle? Wink, wink.

(41:23):
Right, right. So now trying to masterfully
segue to something else. See if my I want to get in your
brain. I know the the skills at linking
topics. Let's go to how as a midlife

(41:43):
woman who doesn't use food or alcohol to cope or numb or, you
know, impact your mood. Since you, I'm assuming I'm
actually, I guess I'm leaping tothat.
If we're not using food or beverage to bring about a
happier state, how do you, as a midlife Jewish woman manage your

(42:11):
mental health? First of all, I love food.
So I do use food because I enjoyfood.
OK, I guess I was thinking more along the lines of like as
opposed to a binge eater who might take the whole package of
ice cream and cookies to bed to feel comforted.
I think that I've done a lot of personal growth as well as a lot

(42:33):
of really good DBT skills that Iuse now, and a lot of self talk
and honesty with myself helps. That I don't need, if I've had a
really bad day or frustrating day or upsetting day, I don't
need the alcohol to, you know, calm that down.
However I may, I may play a mahjong game like a online game.

(42:56):
And I definitely use that. I, I am an exerciser, but, but I
exercise what I like doing. I'm not like, oh, I need to do
this workout because it's this many calories.
Like I, I, I happen to thrive onmovement.
I like it. I like how I feel, fresh air is
something important to me. Except if it's like under 60°
because. It's Have you forgotten where

(43:17):
you live? Yeah, exactly.
My dogs. My dogs give me a lot of love
and just peace within. Oh, binge watching shows.
Sorry, I'll admit that's that's one of my, my things.
Like I, I, I like that escape. Yeah, I'm there too.
And books reading. I like reading stupid books.

(43:38):
Sometimes really good books likethat'll be like more literary.
Other times I'm like just give me a stupid.
Book Chiclet Yeah, because now is a tumultuous time for Jewish
women to to be walking around, talking and interacting with
others. So there's a lot of people who

(44:00):
are flooded with emotions, and the easy thing to do is grab
that water bottle, fill it with beverage of choice and a pint of
our favorite B&J. So for the people listening who
are like, oh God, but it's just so much easier to stuff it down
with substances. I still might grab some ice

(44:23):
cream because I like it, that's OK, but.
You're eating it intuitively, yeah.
Be into it because I wanted to have it.
I think connection finding, finding connections somewhere
like I just joined a temple trying to move my place there
could be challenging. It's a whole other episode.
Joining a temple at age 54. Yeah, I would be interested in

(44:46):
that. Yeah, but I, I, I'm trying and I
please, I am not succeeding at this.
It's definitely a struggle rightnow but I'm just finding ways to
have connection with like mindedpeople and sometimes those
connections are not in real lifeand that's OK.
Yeah. Like I do think that there are
social connections that it's so I have a group of we started to

(45:08):
talk about this pre show of Jewish practitioners.
It's mainly dietitians and therapists in the eating
disorder world. And we came together after
October 8th. And I've never met any of them
in real life. But when I come across something
that happens usually at work that is very upsetting.
They're the ones I go to becausemy friends don't understand
that, you know, like, you know, it's something that's

(45:31):
anti-Semitic in our fields or whatever.
So I just find, and I think after October 8th and that also
after the election, you've weeded out unfortunately,
unfortunately who you feel comfortable with and that's OK.
Yeah. It's smaller amount of friends
is OK. Yeah, sometimes the the quality

(45:51):
over quantity adage really makes.
Sense it's not my dog who just agrees with all my opinions like
I'm. Exactly.
Yeah, no, there is something needs to be said for online
community. The people who scoff at it just
haven't experienced what a virtual friendship can do for
the soul. That it is.

(46:13):
And I may meet, I may meet one of those people in real life and
be like, oh, I don't like it. But you know, what does that
matter, right? If, if, if, if a virtual group
or you, you know, you have a friend here or a friend there
that helps you through somethingand you helped them through
something. Why is that wrong?
Yeah, I mean, I've been. Giving them money or having some
kind of weird sexual thing with them and to you and, you know,

(46:36):
scamming you, that's a whole that's a whole other thing.
But I. Wouldn't call that a friendship
then. No, but you know what I'm
saying. Like, yeah, yeah, no, I mean,
I've been in Group coaching programs for five years and I
lead them. I mean, I couldn't be louder
from the mountaintop of virtual friendships, are it?
Yep. Yep, I've met so many people

(46:57):
virtually through the past, like12 years, like I was, you know,
I'm not new to the virtual space.
I yeah, it it, it fills my soul as well.
All right. So we covered a lot of ground.
I guess my last question to you would be, what would you want
this predominantly midlife female audience to take away

(47:18):
that I haven't LED you to say already?
Don't jump and take GLP ones if you have 5 lbs to lose.
I just. No, you're not.
No, I, I think that the biggest thing I would tell women of, of
of our age find peace within yourself somewhere.

(47:39):
You don't need that external validation all the time.
Try to find a way to enjoy beingwith yourself, with your
thoughts, with your feelings. Like fall in love with yourself.
Oh, that's. Good.
Is there anything you, any placeyou want the audience to find
you, follow you, get more of you?

(48:01):
No, 'cause I've blocked everything.
I mean, I do have a community. I haven't been as active on it.
It's called the no way, way, NO,Yep.
And way WEIGH and way WAY on Facebook.
Anyone can find me there. I mean, I'll, I'll screen you.
As you should. Yeah, come in and sell me some

(48:22):
products in there. That's one way.
You can always find me online atLaura Kramer Cohen.
I do not accept all friend requests because I now my space
A lot. Again as that middle-aged woman,
I protect my space now. But you could absolutely send me
a friend request and or a message or something, you know.
But yeah, that's one thing. I definitely after the age of 50

(48:43):
something I protect my space. Yeah, right.
We got to curate that that feed,the feed on the screen and the
feed in our life. I know when you're reaching out,
I always now look at who frownedrequested me.
They just started a business. Oh, forget it.
You know, like I'll actually reach out and be like, so I'm
curious, how are we connected? Oh, you just seem like a like

(49:06):
minded person. And I'm like, I'm not, you don't
know me. You're not getting up in my
brain. Yeah, let me just screen this
right now. Well, Laura, in conclusion, I
want to invite you to raise a glass and let us say cheers to
falling in love with yourself. Yep.

(49:29):
Cheers with water, sorry. I did just like spill all over
myself used to the new the new Awala.
Good. This is good.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime and I hope I wasn't.
Hard on you. I was like, I love it.
Uh, uh, uh, I'm going to go backto her and she's going to hate
me. I know.
And you know what I think it's, I think it's a really good model

(49:53):
for the audience to to know thatwe can have challenging
conversations and we can disagree without hanging up and
blocking the person. Totally.
Like I it doesn't mean oh wow, she she disagreed with me or she
questioned my approach. So I'll never speak to her and
I'm going to trash talk her behind her back.

(50:15):
Let's let's actually be middle-aged mature women about
it and embrace different points of view and applaud what the
other person is doing. Totally agree totally.
And a little bit of education onthe side, right?
Because you, you only know what you know.
Right, I don't that's that's oneof the reasons that I do

(50:35):
interviews and I don't just comeout and not that there's
anything wrong with solo episodepodcast, but I want to hear what
you know and believe. I, I, I sold Wellness products
for 12 years, so I had all the same thoughts that everyone,
everyone else has. And I just learned a different
way and really saw how much fat phobia I had and how much diet

(51:00):
culture thoughts and where I gotthem from and how they affected
my life that I don't. I don't get mad at people that
have those thoughts. I just always, I'm curious, are
you open to looking into that and changing it?
And I'm grateful to you for thatbecause you have me thinking
about my own set of beliefs, things that I'm I'm reading in

(51:21):
books that I now realize just because I'm reading it in a book
that I chose to read doesn't mean I have to take that on as
my own truth now. You know what book I don't know
if you've ever read? It is literally changed my life.
It's actually right here. I keep it close to me.
You know, I saw you mention thaton your website and I don't

(51:43):
know. I actually took notes in it,
which I never do. Wow.
I read this a couple months after my probably about eight
months after my daughter was diagnosed.
I sat in that little chair rightthere, and I was reading usually
these books, I'll get through a Chapter 2 that I'm bored, and I
put them down. I devoured it.
I cried during it because it went through all of like, the

(52:06):
history of diaculture. Like in the time that I went to
school back in the 80s and the early 90s, my professors were
brought up in the book. Yeah.
And it really just really, it validated what I learned.
And then it really explained to me just so much.
I mean, I've done so much work since that.
But that was the first book, Anti Diet by Christy Harrison

(52:29):
that I recommend to all my caregivers who who
understandably have the the thoughts that we have.
And then she has a second one called, I think it's called the
Wellness Trap. And that's a good one too.
I didn't devour that one as quickly, I think, because I was
a little further along in my journey.
But those two books I would highly recommend if you're ever,
if you're ever. Wellness, curious, right, right.

(52:52):
Or forced into the conversation.But by circumstances, by, you
know, unfortunate circumstances.I was interviewed on a podcast,
the anti Diet podcast, Anti DietShow.
I should double check the name of it.
It was a while ago. But I think she's doing a really
good job in the space of just having conversations.

(53:12):
Not, you know #bopo, but just genuine hearty conversations.
I mean, I, I spoke about my own binge eating disorder and
finding, you know, it's, again, it's an overused, but like food
freedom and being able to actually eat foods that were on

(53:33):
the no list for decades, that nothing's on the no list.
Yep, and and really just connecting with my body.
How does this make me feel? So it's not that the pint of ice
cream is bad, but if I don't feel great afterwards then it's
not the best choice for me. Absolutely.

(53:54):
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, if you can eat it and
not have this reaction, bang. On for you I mean.
No one needs to eat a pint of ice cream.
Let's. No, no, no, I do what?
I'm saying like that wouldn't bea normal thing.
Like I wouldn't think people would feel good after eating a
pint of ice. Cream, right?
No matter what it is so. For I'm not even talking about
health or anything, I just. Right, right, right.
Yeah, think of anything. It's a lot of food.

(54:16):
Yeah. Let's just pay attention to our
connect with our bodies, love our bodies like you said, and
give ourselves some grace, right?
Like, I wouldn't feel good if I woke up and I had a Big Gulp and
you know, Skittles were right, right?
But if someone wants to have AI,don't give a shit, right?
Right. Unless they're saying I don't

(54:37):
feel good. Well.
Right. Then why are you doing it?
Let's explore that. Yeah, yeah.
So anyway. Thank you, Laura, for coming on
this show and sharing your personal experience, your
valuable wisdom, and your brightenergy.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

(54:58):
What a great conversation with Laura Cohen.
How much did you enjoy her raw, authentic, no bullshit approach
to Wellness? Yes, it took us a little bit of
time in the beginning to find our flow and get through that
slightly heated discussion. But this conversation produced

(55:20):
so many golden Nuggets. So let's get into Laura's notes
from the sidelines. Number one, what does it even
mean to be healthy? It's getting in touch with what
feels good in your body. And it's not defined by a social
construct. Because frankly, someone else's
definition is bullshit #2 weightis not a health marker, period.

(55:45):
Mic drop #3 Society and the medical world are fat phobic.
There is shaming, dismissing, and just being ignored #4
changing health habits should not be linked to changing the
number on the scale. If you want to change your
eating and exercise habits to healthy ones, do it because you

(56:08):
want to, not because someone else is shaming you into it #5
and this is a really big point for people to recognize.
A smaller body does not equal healthy, and having a smaller
body has nothing to do with how you feel.
Number six, anorexia does not mean a small body #7 The social

(56:33):
determinants of health have nothing to do with weight or
measurements, but rather connection, sleep, feelings of
safety, access to food with nutrients, healthcare, managing
stress, and joyful movement #8 Body autonomy means you do what

(56:54):
you want but know what you're doing and why you're doing it
#9. Eating disorders increase in
middle age, which is so crazy sad because it's like we women
are going backwards from all thework that was done to help us
learn to appreciate our bodies #10.
As you age, your body changes. It's natural.

(57:17):
The fact that we're told it's a bad thing is really messed up
#11 You choose what's important to you to focus on as you age,
but just make sure you're makingthat choice for you and not
someone else. And we heard that same message
in my conversation with Vanessa Gordon.
Are you doing these things to see and be seen, or are you

(57:39):
doing them to feel good #12 instead of soothing your mood
with food and drink, Laura suggests personal growth, DBT
skills, self talk, being honest with yourself, playing an online
game. I love that choice.
Exercising in a way that you like, Getting fresh air.

(58:00):
Being with dogs again. Check my Instagram, I do that
quite a bit. Binge watching shows, not food
again, I'm not ashamed to talk about my Netflix addiction.
And also reading another thing Ilove, as evidenced by my recent
interview with best selling author BA Paris #13.
Find connections somewhere with like minded people.

(58:23):
It doesn't have to be in real life.
I can attest to the intensity and depth of friendships that
exist online. And finally #14 find peace
within yourself somewhere you donot need external validation.
Try to find a way to enjoy beingwith your own thoughts and

(58:45):
protect that space. Wow.
Thank you Laura Cohen for this fascinating conversation about a
topic we women cannot escape. Food, body, health, this is real
stuff and you have beautifully reminded us that our
definitions, perspective and decisions really exist within

(59:09):
us. How we feel about ourselves, our
appearances, our reflection, it's our choice and how we
approach treating our bodies is up to us.
So I hope you all enjoyed this conversation and please share it
with your midlife friends, family and neighbors because we
need to hear these messages and know that we have a choice, that

(59:34):
it's up to us to feel compassionand self acceptance.
And if we do want to make changes in our lives, that's
great, but it needs to be self driven.
And I just want to take a momenthere to acknowledge that.
I mentioned Ben and Jerry specifically because I'll admit
they have a plentiful and delicious selection of non dairy

(59:55):
ice cream. However, in case you missed it,
Jerry Greenfield has been quite expressive with his thoughts
about the conflict in Israel. And while this show is not
particularly political. I am a pro Israel Jewish woman
and I find Jerry Greenfield and his views incredibly upsetting

(01:00:18):
and I don't agree with him. So if he were still the owner of
the ice cream company I would avoid purchasing.
But since they sold to Unilever I will still eat the ice cream.
But I think Ben and Jerry as people and Jews in particular,
to be pretty disturbing. So I'll leave it at that and
hope that I don't stir up too much controversy.

(01:00:40):
Again, another shout out to Laura Cohen.
And I hope you will share this episode and continue to support
this show by subscribing and telling your friends all about
it and also giving it five starson Spotify and Apple.
I thank you so much for tuning in and hope to see you right
back here next week for my beautifully vulnerable and

(01:01:01):
relatable conversation with Nicole Grave Lipson about her
new member, more mothers and other fictional characters.
So if you feel like reading thatbook in the next week in
preparation of that interview. Go for it.
In the meantime I will be celebrating my daughters
graduation from high school. So cheers to you and cheers to
her.

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78 - Laura Cohen defines "healthy" and explains fatphobia

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}78 - Laura Cohen defines "healthy" and explains fatphobia