79 - Nicole Graev Lipson exposes the challenges of motherhood - Sideline Sisters

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hey ladies, my name is Jenny Chaffetz and I am the host of
Sideline Sisters. Are you a busy mom, powerhouse
professional or high achieving go getter?
This show is for no BS women whowant to be inspired to get off
the sidelines of their lives. Ever feel like you're playing
small or safe or just on autopilot?

(00:23):
My guests are relatable women who've gone on a journey,
overcome challenges, and live toshare the lessons that we want
to hear. These conversations will be
funny, sad, scary, wise, encouraging, and most of all,
real. So whether you're driving, doing
chores, exercising, walking the dog, or just laying on the

(00:45):
couch, settle in and enjoy. I want to invite you to take
back your power, reignite your passions, and step off the
sidelines. Let's go.
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode
of Sideline Sisters. I'm your host, Jenny Chaffetz.
I'm also a life and breath work coach for midlife women and I'm

(01:05):
also a mom of now 2 high school graduates because this past
weekend my daughter graduated from high school and I'm
embarking upon the pivotal time of life called Empty Nest Hood.
So I will be exploring this topic in future episodes because
it's intriguing to say the least.

(01:28):
But for today, you are going to hear the first of a two-part
series featuring interviews withauthors who are brave enough to
write about the unspeakable truths in their memoirs.
They boldly share their personalexperiences and their thoughts
on topics that most people are just too afraid to bring up.

(01:50):
Today's episode features a fascinating conversation that I
had with author and fellow mom Nicole Grave Lipson.
Her book, which is a memoir in essays, is called Mothers and
Other Fictional Characters. Her writing has appeared in the
Sun, Virginia Quarterly Review, LA Review of Books, the

(02:10):
Washington Post, the Boston Globe, and Marie Claire, among
other venues. Her work has been awarded A
Pushcart Prize, shortlisted for a National Magazine Award, and
selected for the Best American Essays anthology.
Originally from New York City, she lives outside of Boston with
her husband and children. And what I love about my
conversation with Nicole and just her as a person is that

(02:33):
she's not afraid to bare her soul.
She's not afraid to be open and honest.
She's not afraid to speak the truth.
She is brave and puts herself out there and exposes the reader
to topics related to marriage and relationships and all of the
different emotions that arise from conflict and curiosity.

(02:58):
So I am hugely grateful and in awe of her for what she wrote in
her book and came on this show to discuss.
And if you are a mother and you have issues, challenges,
traumas, or even thoughts that you have been ashamed or
embarrassed to admit or share, then I hope you will find

(03:23):
comfort in this conversation. And I recommend picking up
Nicole's book so that you can really experience the comfort
and validation that she offers. And after you read her book, if
you feel that you could use the support of a life coach who
specializes in midlife mom stuff, then please reach out to

(03:46):
me. The links in the show notes are
there for your convenience. Or you could just send me an
e-mail. Jenny at gentlecoaching.com and
I would love to create a safe space for you because you will
hear Nicole mention the importance of feeling a sense of
safety in order to explore sensitive topics.

(04:06):
And that's one of the things I pride myself on at Gentle
Coaching is creating a really special container for you to be
real, to be vulnerable, to be seen and held.
So again, Jenny at gentlecoaching.com or check the
show notes. And now let's get into the
conversation with Nicole. I am so pleased to be sitting

(04:26):
here today with you, Nicole. Welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
I love that we have, you know, some mutual friends and some
shared geography. Being in New England, I'm I'm
totally mesmerized by this book that you've written and we are

(04:49):
going to dive into it. But before, or maybe I guess
intertwined with that is my question of you've written a
book called Mothers and Other Fictional Characters.
It is a memoir. What is it about your life that
your your entire journey that prompted you to write this book?

(05:13):
So it's one of those questions where it's like, where do I
start? Do I start in kindergarten or do
I start telling? You right, right wherever the
story starts, right? Well, I mean, I will say that
I've always, since I was very young, thought of myself as a
writer. You know, it was always what I
gravitated to in school and loved crafting stories and

(05:34):
telling stories and writing. And it's always my favorite
thing to do. And, you know, pursued writing
in college. And I have throughout my adult
life, though it was always secondary, it was something that
I did in addition to my primary career.
So I worked for a time in book publishing as assistant editor,

(06:00):
and then I moved on to teaching high school English for several
years. I'm writing occasional pieces on
the side but for many reasons, mostly fear, truthfully and
that. I was going to interrupt you and
ask, you know, why, why, why is it?
And it's not just writing. I mean, it's, it's, I feel like

(06:21):
it's any of the arts specifically that perhaps women.
I'm not going to speak for men, but I primarily talk to women in
these deep, rich conversations. Why is it that we look at those
creative outlets as side passions like that?

(06:43):
I, I couldn't graduate college with a degree in English
literature or writing or whatever your, you know,
interest was and just do that, right?
Correct. Yeah.
So, I mean, I thought a lot about this question.
And, you know, the path for for the arts is so much less clear
than it is for other things. And I remember so clearly when I

(07:05):
was a senior in college, you know, like, McKinsey was not
coming to the Cornell Universitycampus to recruit essayists.
So, you know, like. Right, right.
And so it was just such a unclear path.
And so, you know, needing, needing a job and an income.
Yeah. And, you know, feeling, I

(07:27):
certainly never did anything that I didn't enjoy and love.
I, there were many things that Iloved about being a book editor
and there were definitely many things that I I loved and
treasured about being a high school English teacher.
But these were careers. These were very identifiable,
clear careers. And maybe I would have felt
differently if I were, if I thought of myself first and

(07:50):
foremost as a journalist, because I think careers for
journalists are a little bit more straightforward.
But I think of myself as a creative, non fiction writer.
And that's a much less defined path.
And it often. Yeah, yeah, it often.
Is a path that goes hand in handwith some other career right
There are there are many, you know, for instance, physicians

(08:13):
or doctors who have written beautiful memoirs right about
their experiences as physicians.So it isn't is not the type of
career path that is necessarily your one and single career path.
Yes, yeah. But that doesn't mean that I did
it long inside. For it.
For it to be my main focus. And so, you know, I think it was

(08:35):
sort of the dual thing of practically needing an income
and, and also finding my way. You know, once you're teaching
in a school, that becomes your identity, right?
Like, I wasn't pretending to be a teacher.
I was a teacher. Yeah, yeah.
Now there's there's a professor at NYU who I he's written

(08:56):
multiple books and I've heard him interviewed and his name is
Scott Galloway. I don't know if you've ever
heard of him. And he he speaks and teaches
about money and investing and finance and he's made bajillions
like he's he's made, he's lost, he's made.
And there's a quote, I'm going to not get it exactly, but it's

(09:17):
basically basically follow your talent, not your passion because
you could love making bead bracelets, but are you going to
make a living making bead bracelets?
Maybe not. And so he says, what are you
good at? Did you take those accounting
classes in college and find thatthey came really easily and you

(09:37):
just excelled? Even if it's accounting or, or
some other like, you know, biology or something like what
came really easily? What were you good at?
Go in that direction because onethen you can spend your free
time doing the passion projects,you can DJ, you can make
cupcakes, whatever you know fuels you that way.

(09:59):
And also, when you do that thingthat you're really good at, it
will most likely or, you know, in the best of worlds, lead you
up the ladder to having more, making more money, getting a
bigger office with a view and the title and all the benefits
that come with that, which will create a sense of excitement and

(10:25):
passion within you. But again, when you make that
pile of money doing the thing you're really good at, you can
then pivot and do the DJ ING more full time because you've,
you know, you're sitting on a pile of cash.
It's just an interesting like follow your talent, not your
passion, which is so conflictingwith what were raised.

(10:46):
You know, just like follow the light, you know, do do the thing
that brings you joy. Yeah.
But you know, making B braceletsand DJing might not might not
pay the rent. 100% although let's be clear, I've never
rolling in cash from being a teacher or.
A book, right, right but I and Iwas a teacher in another life

(11:10):
and so. Totally.
I know, I know, I know. Well, you know, pays, as we
know, not generally commensuratewith the skills or talent OR
input, sacrifice, sacrifice and so forth.
But to get back to sort of the writing journey, so

(11:30):
interestingly, what so once I had my first child, and I write
about this in the book, I felt that I lost contact with my
creative self in those first months.
Like even moving into, you know,the first few years and having
other children. I write about this in the book

(11:52):
that it wasn't simply a matter of having all these added
responsibilities as a caregiver and, you know, not having a lot
of time for creative pursuits. That was all true.
But I think on top of that, it felt almost as if a fame had
been cauterized. It felt like I could not access

(12:12):
that the person in me who had had thought creatively in these
ways. And I've done a lot of thinking
as to why that was, and I've come to the conclusion that it
wasn't becoming a mother in and of itself that did that to me.
It was trying to be the kind of mother I thought I needed to be

(12:34):
to not mess up my children, because I had been taught that a
certain type of mothering was required for that.
And I very I found myself very much when my children were very
young, trying desperately to step into this.

(12:55):
And here's where the book title comes in into this fictional
character of mother with a capital M in all the ways that
our culture has this mythical notion of mother with a capital
M And, you know, and what are the qualities of that character?
What does that character look like as she moves through the

(13:15):
world in public? And for me, the mother with a
capital M was the sort of ever patient, self sacrificing,
perpetually calm, centered, doting parent.
And this came a lot. I mean, I gave birth to my first
child in 2010, and I think I getthe sense that things have

(13:37):
shifted a little bit. But that was like a real, that
might have been like the height of attachment parenting kind of
frenzy, right? Everyone was walking around with
their Moby raps like. Right, right.
I know you, I've heard you reference that.
And I'm like, we had the other one that it was whatever the
thing with the clips and the whatever the contraption was

(13:59):
that you wore on the front. And I remember trying to cook
dinner and I've got, you know, the pot that's inches away away
from this child that's attached,you know, like a kangaroo pouch
in front of me. And I'm like, this is bullshit.
Like we're I need that. Like, you know, we had, we had
very low tech contraptions because I just frankly didn't
want to hear the damn noise. So, you know, I had a seat that

(14:20):
I put on the counter like some sort of art shape thing, no
bells or whistles. But I remember putting him in
that on the kitchen counter because I was like, I I need to
cook dinner. This is ridiculous.
Like, I can't have like, a living thing that could easily
get splashed with boiling water and like, no, just go over

(14:40):
there. Well, don't get me started on
using public bathrooms with the baby in the baby viewer.
I mean like the feet are dangling.
The. Feet are dangling like, you
know, or I mean, I have a distinct memories of like going
to the having to go to the bathroom in a public like in the
mall and having the baby around me and having to get the baby

(15:03):
off. And I'm like, where am I going
to put this baby, you know, and like lying the baby on the floor
like it's just, you know, like because there's no stroller.
There was no. Place to put the baby.
But but to go back to what you what you said moments ago about
this picture of perfect mother that we see and and worship.

(15:26):
And then there's I mean, I want to give a shout out to the
listeners who either never aspired to that or beat
themselves up in aspiration of that because you see and you
reference far more significant and pedestal like women in your
book. But even just thinking of Missus

(15:47):
Cleaver or Carol Brady or Betty Crocker, I don't even know if
she a real person. Forget Martha Stewart, that is
just beyond. But you see these people and
you're like, OK, I'm supposed tobe baking every day.
I'm supposed to look nice. I'm supposed to only talk in a
nice voice to my children, nevershout, never swear, never lose

(16:09):
my shit. Like what?
Yeah, I mean, I and I also thinkI've, you know, I've thought a
lot about this and there are allkinds of ways in our culture
that we aspire to some sort of mythic form of whatever it is,
right? It can be like, you know, even
before I had children, I aspiredtill, you know, in my early 20s
to be like a sexy 20 something woman to me.

(16:33):
What, what makes the mother archetype, the sort of ideal
mother archetype, so uniquely insidious is that we have been
taught to believe that as mothers that our child's growth,
wholeness, flourishing, thriving, is exquisitely

(16:55):
calibrated to our every move. And that is a kind of prison to
have that thinking right. It gives us no leeway for error.
It gives us no leeway to, you know, to reject that ideal
unless you're just a real, like,total rebel, kick ass woman who
doesn't give a shit about any ofthis.

(17:17):
And they, I have friends like this.
It's amazing. Yeah.
But it's not all of us. And so, you know, that was
really what divorced me from my creative self was like kind of
white knuckling my way through those first three years, you
know, like trying to embody this, this fiction.
But then I slowly began to recover from this.

(17:42):
I, I began to for various reasons, various conversations.
You know, it's always so hard toknow how our thinking evolves,
right? Exactly.
But things that I read, conversations I had, you know,
really began to turn that critical eye less in Word on
myself and more at the systems around us and the expectations

(18:06):
and how they exist within our patriarchy, within a patriarchal
framework. So that by the time my youngest,
I have three children, by the time my youngest turned 2 years
old, a total transformation had taken place in me where I almost
nothing like this has ever happened to me before.
And I'm pretty sure nothing likethis will happen to me again.

(18:28):
Where it was literally almost like one afternoon where I was
overcome by that's just thinkingabout writing, thinking about
where I wanted to go next in my life.
And I was overcome in this bodily way with resolve and
determination. Like nothing was going to stop
me from centering writing in my life in the way that I had

(18:51):
always wanted to. And it wasn't even like my
mindset wasn't even, oh, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to
try this out. I'll see how it goes.
It was like, come hell or high water, this is what I'm doing
now. Yeah.
And I I have lots of thoughts about why that happened, but
I'll stop there for now. It's like an identity shift.

(19:14):
It was an identity shift, yes. Or more like a turning of the
spotlight onto this part of my identity rather.
Than allowing it to write, it's like you said cauterized
earlier. It's like all of a sudden.
The floodgates open. Right, like like slicing open
and saying emerge. Exactly.

(19:36):
And it was, it felt like that. It felt like all this, all this,
like this part of me that had been been dammed up, you know,
was, was was let, let free. And, you know, I think that
there are a couple reasons for that, like, as I've, you know,
looked back in retrospect, and one was that no experience to me

(20:00):
has put me so deeply in touch with mortality as being a
parent. You know, I think there's
something about raising children, having children, that
emphasized for me that life is fleeting.
Sorry, you know, I'm just, I'm thinking about friends of mine

(20:21):
who are the same age as I am whodon't have children.
I think we have very different perspectives on our age because
and I, I don't know if you feel this way, you know, you
mentioned motherhood doing this.I don't know if this is your
take on it, but I feel like watching as these people get
older, it's clearly In Sync withmy own aging.

(20:45):
And it's like, OK for me to havean almost 20 year old walking
around the house. Well, that means I'm not 20
anymore. It means I'm not 30 anymore.
Like what time has elapsed and it's evident in the fact that I
have these grown people walking around me who once lived in my
womb. A. 100% I think that's so true.

(21:09):
And that was what I was feeling right as I see I had no babies
anymore right? Like I, I was seeing the passage
of time before my eyes and feeling inside of me like, oh,
you know, I think when you're younger, at least when I was
younger, I felt like I there's endless time to get to the
things that I deeply want to do.And having children, being a

(21:32):
mother, really brought home to me that time is finite and that
it's up to us to use it as our heart most wants to use it.
And so that was one thing. And then the second thing is
that there were so many aspects of motherhood that were really
deeply fascinating to me that I wanted to write about.

(21:54):
So now I had not only the impulse and the drive in a way
that I hadn't before, but I had content that I really, really
wanted to dive into, which has, you know, has to do with being a
mother. But that's not, you know, I
often say that my book, it's notabout motherhood, it's about

(22:16):
being human from the perspectiveof a mother.
And I think that there is a distinction there.
But being a mother had shifted my perspective on the world, on
my own experiences, on experiences of others around me
in really in ways that really fascinated me and that I wanted
to write about. But it's so it's so interesting

(22:37):
because getting back to what we were saying about sort of like
how to think of 1's dream versusor one's passion versus what
they're good at. I actually just this past
weekend, I was so honored to to be asked to do this.
But I gave a graduate high school graduation speech at an

(22:59):
all girls high school in Connecticut.
And I honestly have to tell you,like there have been some
wonderful things that have happened as a result of this
book in the past year. And you know what?
It recently made the US day-to-day best seller list and
all these things are great. But but this was probably the
biggest honor that. Honestly, that's that's been
that's come up for me in visualizations like that's,

(23:22):
that's one of my vision board dreams.
Yes. But yeah, I can only imagine the
swelling of emotion. Yeah, and that would bring, and
this is what I talked. I'm going to, I'm going to share
with you something that I said to the graduating class because
I think it's really germane and relevant here, which is all of

(23:46):
these things that might have felt like detours are not
exactly what I wanted to be doing, whether it was working in
book publishing, teaching high school English.
All of these things are integralto my book.
They, there is no way that I could have written this book

(24:07):
without those parts of my life for for really crucial reasons.
I mean, being a high school English teacher teaching
literature to students for years, you know, honed my
understanding of literature in away that is at the heart of my

(24:30):
book because my book is at once a memoir and a sort of literary
investigation. I weave literature into the book
over and over again, whether it's fiction by Kate Chopin or
Toni Morrison or Shakespeare or,you know, it's, there's a lot of
literature in my book. What what a unique idea in and

(24:52):
of itself, like, and then the fact that you could make it
beautiful and successful and anddesirable to others, that's just
so cool that you can think up a concept and actually construct
it. Yeah.
And I feel really indebted to myyears as a teacher for that.
You know, I was an English majorin college and so forth, but I

(25:13):
don't, I would not, I'm not certain I would have kept that
kind of critical literary lens throughout my life in the same
way if I had not pursued a career.
And telling other people to do it.
Telling other people to do it. Exactly.
But also my years as a high school English teacher really
gave me practice broaching sensitive and difficult topics

(25:38):
with compassion and empathy and considering my audience.
Right. Because you are kind of a
performer as an English teacher.And I think that's something I
brought into the book as well, because I do go there, as they
say, in a lot of ways. I mean, I, I, I dig into some
really sensitive topics, whetherit's, you know, youth and gender

(26:01):
identity, you know, whether it'smarital infidelity.
I mean, I talk about a lot of really personal things.
And I just, I think that being in community in a school setting
really prepared me for that. And then, you know, working as
an editor just made me write a better book.
I mean, when you work with authors, you know, helping them

(26:23):
hone their books, you know, getting that bird's eye view as
a young adult into how books aremade and you know what a
successful process looks like. All of that helped me in writing
my own book. So I wouldn't go back and change
any of it, right? But it's so hard to know as
we're going through life what what is going to end up being

(26:49):
really crucial in the Venn diagram of where we land, if
that makes sense. Yeah, and I, I probably, if
we're, if we're going with that image, it's probably way bigger
of an overlap than we realize. You know, our lives like that
center of, you know, things thatdidn't matter or things that

(27:11):
were frivolous or didn't have the impact, the impact.
I feel like of all the things, the stupid things, the the silly
things, that even fleeting things have shaped us way, way
more than we realize. Yeah, 100%.
And then one lovely thing about writing is that you get to kind

(27:32):
of metabolize all that and figure out how the pieces come
together, especially in essay writing, which is a lot about
weaving together disparate experiences and making meaning
of them together, seeing where the patterns emerge.
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(28:18):
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save 10%. And now let's get back to the
show. So of the things that you
highlight that that you bring upin your book, what kind of
healing process was writing thisbook?

(28:39):
Like, you know, as far as these profound topics go, what in your
own life were you able, if you were able to heal, resolve,
observe by going through this process?
So many things because as an essayist, you know, because the

(29:00):
book is comprised of essays. It's a memoir and essays.
I, I always start from a place of confusion.
It's usually something that I'm confused about, something that's
perplexing me, bewildering me, that brings me to the page.
And it's in the act of writing that I try to, you know, sort of

(29:21):
creep my way closer to some sortof understanding.
And I mean, I wish that I could say that at the end of writing
an essay, I'm like, Eureka, I'vefigured it all out, you know,
and I can put this question behind me.
It's really never like that. You know, the best I can hope
for is that it just that the going through the process of

(29:43):
writing brings me slightly closer to understanding, or at
the very least makes me feel more comfortable resting in
uncertainty. But to give some examples, I
have an essay in the book calledAs They Like It, in which I
explore what it was like for me as a mother to witness my oldest

(30:07):
child migrate, begin to migrate in early adolescence from the
identity of a girl toward the identity of a boy.
And this is really fraught territory to write into in our
culture. There's a lot, you know,
unfortunately, this issue of youth and gender, I believe, has

(30:27):
been hijacked by, you know, extreme ends of the spectrum.
And there's very little room for, I think, public dialogue
that really, well, I wanted to explore it from the point of
view of a, of a parent who's never had this experience
before. You know, none of us as parents
have the experiences that we're having before we have them.

(30:51):
Right. I mean, I say that all the time.
Like, you know, when people say something like, well, you're a
mother, So what, you know, blah,blah, blah.
With my I'm like, OK, I'm a mother of an 18 and 19 year old.
I don't know what it's like to be the mother of a 25 year old.
I don't know what it's like to be the mother of two girls.
I have a girl and a boy. I don't know what it's it's like
to be the mother of twins. I don't.
I only know what I know on this day, and sometimes I don't even

(31:13):
know that very well. 100% And it's also right, if you think
about it like there's nothing more dynamic because we're
growing and aging. Our children are growing and
aging and the world around us ischanging and the and the and the
climate and the political climate and the cultural

(31:35):
climate, you know, all of this is in flux constantly.
So I mean that, yeah, that's oneexample of, you know, I as I
was, you know, witnessing my child going through this
transition, I was desperate for writing that by, by by other
parents who maybe have gone through similar things.

(31:56):
And we're trying to get their footing the way that I was, you
know, because I wasn't sure how to Orient myself to my child.
I wasn't sure how to parent my child through this.
And as I look for writing from aparental perspective on this
topic, I couldn't find any of the only first person parental
perspectives about transitioningchildren that I could find were

(32:21):
op eds in the service of a politicized stance.
And I wasn't interested in op eds in the service of a
politicized stance. I was interested in like the
real, like invisible, you know, grappling that goes on inside of
us, the inner contradictions that we contain, you know, like

(32:43):
how we can at once want to support and love and cherish and
nurture. And on the other hand, you know,
keep our child safe. Trying to figure out what it
means to keep our child safe. You know, like, there's so many.
There was so much that I was grappling with.
And so I think, you know, I couldn't find it.
And I decided to write it. And it was scary.
It was very scary to write that essay.

(33:05):
But that essay went on to be included in The Best American
Essays 2024, and that was so deeply meaningful to me.
Obviously that's a great honor no matter what you've written.
But the fact that that essay wasthe one that was selected meant
so much to me, because it indicated to me that there was a

(33:27):
hunger out there for these sortsof stories.
And I felt really happy that I had decided to go for it and
offer this kind of a story to the world.
And as I said to you before recording, there's something so

(33:47):
comforting about hearing someoneelse's challenge struggle.
Just, you know, there's that misery loves company.
But I don't mean it like, oh, I want you to be suffering so that
my suffering. It's just to know that someone
else experienced this, is experiencing it.
I'm not alone. This is valid.

(34:10):
And someone had the balls to putit out there.
You know, like, like to know, you know what, like celebrities
who talk about, you know, whether it's umm, Gabrielle
Union at being open about her child's gender stuff and hearing
someone talk about their autistic child or marital stuff,

(34:30):
depression, anxiety. I'm so grateful for the, the
celebrities, the Billie Eilish'sand the Serena Williams and, and
these people who come forward and say, I've been there.
I know, yeah. So that you can sit in your
house and say, oh fuck, finally.Like, yeah, it's not just me.
Yes, and that was a huge goal ofmine in writing this book.

(34:53):
I, I, I wanted to write this book because I had felt like I
had stepped into this fiction ina lot of ways.
And I, I want it out, you know, I want it out.
And the way for me, the way out was to write as truthfully and
honestly as possible about what was going on under the surface,
under the surface of the performance, under the surface

(35:16):
of the fictions. And I did that for two reasons.
I mean, 1 was not truistic, right?
I had this idea that maybe one day, you know, if, you know, I
could help others feel less alone by being honest about my
experiences. But more selfishly, I wanted to
find kindred spirits, right? Like, I wanted to like, you

(35:38):
know, in some ways, like, so much of writing this book felt
like reaching a handout in the dark to some unknown reader to
be like, do you feel this way too?
Am I alone here? And just, you know, to give you
some other examples of kind of scary, risky places where I did
that, you know, I mean, my opening essay in the book is

(36:00):
reflecting on the affair that mymother had when I was in high
school. My mom had a long term affair in
high school that ultimately led to the dissolution of my parents
marriage and sort of the breakdown of my family of
origin. And then thinking about myself

(36:22):
being in now a long term heterosexual marriage, I'm
finding myself, and this is something I go into in the
piece, attracted to a younger man in this poetry class that I
was taking and writing about what it is to find yourself
attracted to somebody who's not your spouse, you know, and so

(36:48):
many people have been like, Oh my gosh, like you're so brave,
you know, to write about that. And what I think to myself is,
yes, it did feel brave, but alsoI think we'd be hard pressed to
find a, a married person out there who has not at one point
in their life found themselves attracted to someone else.

(37:11):
And why are we all walking around pretending that that is
not a normal part of being human?
What did these lies serve, right?
And so, you know, that's a perfect example of what I was
saying earlier. Like we've been taught that
that's an unspeakable thing, butit's not unspeakable, right?

(37:31):
I spoke it and, you know, everyone who has read that
essay, right, relates to that. You know, I will say, you know
that as a memoirist, you know, the risks here are often
interpersonal risks, right? What would you, what is the
person you're writing about going to think?
What is this? You know, if you're writing

(37:53):
about your mother, what is she going to think?
And those are all very, very real considerations.
That's almost like a different topic.
But in terms of more broadly speaking, you know, to a general
audience, I don't think that writing about being attracted to
someone other than your spouse should be looked at as taboo.

(38:15):
I think that needs. I think that needs to change.
Right, right. I mean, maybe if you were
sleeping your way through the neighborhood.
Totally. That's a, you know, a different
conversation. Hey ladies, I'm interrupting the
show to tell you about gentle coaching.
Gentle coaching is my business. It is where ioffer life coaching
and breathwork services to midlife women and their young

(38:38):
adult daughters. And there are a few different
ways that you can stay in touch with me so you know everything
that's going on. The 1st is Instagram at gentle
coaching. The second is Facebook at gentle
coaching. The third is on my website,
gentlecoaching.com and those areall gentle with AJ, by the way.
And the 4th is my e-mail newsletter.

(39:00):
Are you on the list? You can grab the links to all of
those things in the show notes. Now let's get back to the
episode. What has bringing these topics
to the surface done in real life, real time?
You know, it's it's one thing again, it's brave to write about

(39:21):
an attraction to someone else. What is the real life version of
that like? Have you had to with any of the
the essays in the book? Bring them into reality and
address them with the targeted person.
Oh, that's such a good question.OK, so, so, so often, right.

(39:44):
It's like if you get a number, if you get a bunch of like,
memoirists by the bar at a writing conference.
Like. This is like shop talk, right?
We're like writing about real people in your life.
And you know, how do you like, where are the ethical
parameters? You know, how do you go about
it? And it's one of these kind of
perpetually fascinating questions.
And I think the reason it's a perpetually fascinating question

(40:06):
is because there is no right answer.
We all want some sort of one-size-fits-all, you know,
playbook to use when writing about loved ones in our life.
But I will say that my approach starting early on was that as I
was writing or thinking about writing something, or drawn to
writing about a particular topicthat overlapped with a loved

(40:31):
ones experience, I would talk tothem about it.
But what was really key here forme was that I didn't broach it
as I want to write about this and I want your permission.
I didn't start. Yes, I was like.
Please tell me you didn't ask for permission.
No, I didn't. I didn't start with the writing.
Because if there was something that gave me pause that I

(40:54):
worried, like is, you know, thisloved one of mine going to be OK
with this, Like, how will they feel about this?
Instead of talking to them aboutthe writing of the thing, I
decided to talk to them about the thing.
Yes. And usually talking about the
thing, it would have been something I avoided, right?

(41:16):
Right, that's normal. In my day-to-day life.
Because who on any given day wants to complicate their day by
talking about the thing they don't want to they don't want?
Hey honey, here's dinner. And by the way, there is this
guy in poetry class that I can'ttake my eyes off of.
Exactly. Just so you should know.

(41:36):
Exactly. So, you know, I ended up having
a lot of really rich, meaningfulconversations with loved ones
that I wouldn't have had otherwise.
And, you know, honest conversations, even though
they're not easy always like I do think if they're between two

(41:56):
people who are reasonable and loving, you know, lead to to
greater intimacy and closeness. But I do, I do want to point out
that one of the reasons I just, I think this is really important
for me to point out. One of the reasons that I could
write these truths, that I couldspeak these things that our
culture has taught us are unspeakable is because I am

(42:19):
deeply fortunate to feel safe inmy relationships and to have
close loved ones in my life who can tolerate some degree of
complexity. I knew that my marriage could
tolerate some degree of complexity.

(42:41):
I felt confident enough that writing about this moment in my
poetry class was not going to blow up my marriage.
And if I thought that it was going to blow up my marriage, I
would not have written about it,right, You know?
And so I'm always really hesitant, especially when
speaking with writers, you know,not to be prescriptive or give

(43:04):
advice or say, you know, this iswhat you should do because not
everyone can do that. I'm just sharing what I could do
and I feel very fortunate about that.
Right now, that's a good point. What is your hope for readers?
Well, I, I, you know, I, I, I have gotten messages from

(43:27):
readers. I've gotten emails from readers.
And the most gratifying feedbackthat I've gotten is when
somebody writes something to theeffect of you put into words,
something that I've experienced but never quite articulated to
myself that way or never quite thought of it in this way.

(43:50):
So that makes me feel like I'm being of service in some way.
And I like that. I like that feeling.
I feel like I'm being of servicein my writing to others.
And, and, and it's wonderful when you know, people then
writers say I, you know, I bought this for five of my
girlfriends. You know, I bought this for I, I
had, oh, my gosh, the like, thisis amazing.

(44:13):
The woman who, who she's like that cuts my hair and she's been
cutting my hair for like 13 years.
She's a dear friend at this point, right?
Yeah. She mentioned my book to another
client of hers in the chair. And a couple weeks ago, my
hairstylist sent me a photo, texted me a photo that this

(44:35):
client had sent to her of, like,the 10 books that she had bought
as gifts and party favors for her closest friends who she was
having over for her 40th birthday party.
And she bought 10 copies of the book and like, had it displayed,
you know, with like dessert And that just, you know, that that
that my words might be bringing other people closer together,

(44:58):
that it's something that they can share is so meaningful and
gratifying. So that's one thing.
And then, you know, I'm not, I'mnot like carrying a protest sign
and like walking in the in the in the Washington Mall for, you
know, to fight the patriarchy. But I do like to think that my

(45:18):
writing in a small, in some small way is, you know, I would
like to think that it's moving the needle, right, in terms of
people being women, being able to just move through the world a
little bit more honestly, or feel comfortable or confident
moving through the world feelingmore, you know, that they have
that they have greater integritythan they then they then they

(45:42):
might currently feel. And when I say integrity, I mean
like the basic definition of that, like a wholeness, right?
Like not to be divided between the self that we project and the
self that we feel ourselves to be internally.
Is there anything that you omitted from the book that
either didn't fit space wise or style wise, or that you just

(46:06):
aren't ready to share with the masses?
Well, I mean, I think that, you know, the book moves more or
less chronologically from when my kids were quite young to, I
think how old. I mean, yeah, my, my oldest is
maybe like 13 or 14, you know, when, when the book ends.

(46:28):
And so I hadn't really had a chance to experience parenting
adolescent, you know, adolescence and, and moving
through this stage of being a mother.
And it's so interesting because I have a whole chapter in the
book about solitude and what I call maternal solitude deficit.

(46:51):
And, you know, being somebody who is sort of temperamentally
an introvert and having three children, these things are
constantly at odds with each other, right?
And constantly feeling like I want to be there for my children
and feeling the pull or call to be totally alone.

(47:13):
So I write about that and, you know, reading over the scene
recently where I talk about, youknow, those days when the
children when we had babies or toddlers and when I could access
solitude. I remember the first time I like
went out for a run after having,you know, one of my and it was

(47:33):
like gasping for air, you know, like getting like walking
outside, you know, or like the first time getting a babysitter,
right? And like walking outside or even
bigger. You know, I used to take these
and I still do sometimes, but itdoesn't feel as necessary
because my kids are more independent now.
But in order to write when my kids were younger, I often had

(47:56):
to take these like Mini, he retreats.
I would like go away for a weekend and again I would get in
the car and like be like. Just God.
Like, overwhelmed with joy at the sight, I'd like just
couldn't believe that I was alone.
And when I was on book tour, I had to be away from my family

(48:19):
more than I ever have in my life.
And what I discovered and started thinking about and found
interesting was that I didn't have that feeling of like,
Hallelujah, like I'm free because slowly imperceptible,
you know, imperceptible. Over the years, my kids have

(48:41):
become more independent. And so that feeling that I was
describing in the book no longerquite exists.
And in fact, I found myself really missing right children
and feeling for Lauren and wondering, do they even notice
I'm gone? Which is a very different

(49:02):
feeling than I had getting in the car for my mini writing and
treats where, you know, I was worried, like, am I abandoning
them? Like, are they going to be able
to, you know, exist without me while also feeling total
delightful freedom? And, you know, so this is all to
say that, you know, there's we're constantly, as we said

(49:23):
before, changing as parents, this, you know, our children are
changing. And so in many ways, the book
could go on and on and on, right?
But you know, it stopped where it stopped.
Yeah, I feel like you are writing a massive permission
slip to the collective. I love that description.
Yeah, and, and everything that that we mentioned at the

(49:46):
beginning and that I've heard you say to other interviewers
about these images, these icons of motherhood that we've seen
since Eve. As I, as I heard you mentioned
once, it's like, here's a like, let's just flip that coin over
and let me show you an alternative that is much more

(50:10):
attainable and soothing and stress less less, not stress
free, but stress less. You could live.
What? Why are we?
Why are you trying to be that when you could be comfortable
here? Yeah, And you know, I've, I've

(50:32):
also found that the process of writing this book has helped me
in my own life be a little bit more honest, a little bit more,
take more risks, you know, and and that's been really wonderful
too. And I will say that one of the
things that I really wanted to achieve with this book is to

(50:54):
show that rejecting these expectations, rejecting these
archetypes doesn't mean turning over the table of your life and
toppling everything right? Like that.
I think there are a number of books that are wonderful books.
Like I have like a whole shelf, you know, in my in my office of
books like this. But you know, like I'm thinking

(51:17):
of All Fours by Miranda July or this American ex-wife by Liz
Lens, you know, like these booksthat are really by women who
have looked around at their lifeand said enough is enough.
Fuck this. Yeah.
I'm like walking out with, like,the house burning down behind
me. Yeah.

(51:37):
And that's definitely a great story.
And there's a space in our culture for those stories.
But that's not my story. My story is very much about what
are the small changes that we can make that might even be
imperceptible, right. It might be just a shift in our
thinking, but that can have tremendous repercussions in our

(51:59):
own life or free us in really huge ways that, again, might not
be perceptible from the outside eye, but that we can feel, you
know? So you said a moment ago that
the process of writing this bookcreated more honesty and I
forget what else. The other word that you used
self actualization or something.Can you think of a recent

(52:24):
example of how this evolved you has presented in life?
Yeah, well and like and not, notsorry to interrupt you like you
said, I mean it could be something really small like you.
Know. Speaking up for yourself in a
diner or something. Totally.
Yeah, I can think of a few ways.You know, one, I have less

(52:48):
tolerance for small talk. And so and but I've also
realized that it's incumbent on me to to do something in a like
often I found myself as, again, as kind of an introvert, like
really dreading those like, I don't know, like sports
sidelines, like surface conversations with other

(53:09):
parents, like really dreading them.
I really hate it, you know, Yeah.
And. And again, thank you for voicing
that. Right.
No, I hate it. And I and so I would often think
like, oh, that going to the soccer game and standing on the
sideline meant that I had to engage in these conversations,
you know, and I just started realizing, you know, I don't, I

(53:29):
can really, I can ask this person next to me anything I
want. I don't.
Have to talk about what their kids summer camp plans are.
There's no, I don't have to. You know you can.
Talk about the state of world affairs or.
I can talk about anything, you know, And so I'm realizing what
role we have in creating the conditions around us.

(53:52):
And it makes life more fun, honestly.
So that's one way and then another.
The other way is I'm definitely much more comfortable not doing
things that I don't want to do, you know, just really drawing a
bright red line around things that I'm not interested in and
that I thought that I should do to meet other people's

(54:14):
expectations. I had to do that to write this
book. So that's really what started me
on that path. There was no way for me, as the
mother of three young children, to write a book without saying
no to things that I didn't really want to do.
There just wasn't time or energy.

(54:35):
You know, it's funny, there's I don't know if you've read it,
it's actually very good, but theShonda Rhimes year of yes.
I mean, everyone knows who she is.
And so she wrote this book Year of yes.
And it's kind of what what the title is.
You know, I'm going to have a year of saying yes to
everything. And I feel like there needs to

(54:55):
be A compatible book. That's the year of no.
And now she wrote it from the perspective of someone who was
saying no so much before and denying herself social
experiences and and connection. So she needed to have a year of
yes to be present in life and toshow up.

(55:16):
Well, if you think. About it, you know, saying yes
is the flip side of saying no. I was saying no to volunteering
at my children's school so that I could say yes to writing.
Exactly, But it's also like the say no to shit you don't want to
do and, and things that might bring out the worst in you or
make you feel crappy. Or I mean, obviously we have a

(55:38):
choice of how we're going to show up and feelings we're going
to have and, and the mood we're in.
But it's like, if you don't wantto go to the volunteer bake sale
at the school or the synagogue or whatever, you don't have to
go. Like you can say, have the year
of saying no. And like, it's just, I'm
thinking of it. It's like like there's this

(56:01):
attitude of say yes, go do everything you can or don't yes.
Absolutely, yeah. And these things might change.
Just because I didn't, you know,volunteer at my kids school this
year doesn't mean that I won't have more time and space and
inclination to next year. Right, right.
But it honoring honoring yourself and allowing honesty

(56:22):
and and authenticity to emerge. Yeah.
Well, you know, it's funny, I interviewed someone I don't know
a year ago or so toward the beginning of this podcast.
And she's a friend of mine, Kirsten Jones.
And she, she, she's in the sports world dealing with
student athletes and helping them with all sorts of coaching
things. But she wrote a book about

(56:45):
raising athletes, and when we talked about it, we said, I
think this was even her vision. She wants it to be the book
that's given out with the What to Expect book.
Because it's like how to raise good athletes that aren't
asshole competitors, that don't have asshole parents that aren't
bad sportsmanship and all that sort of thing.

(57:06):
And I feel like this is the third companion to the Expecting
Mother's bundle. It's right, you gotta get the
what to expect so you know what you know placenta and episiotomy
mean. But you also need to know if
you're gonna have student athletes, how they need to
behave and how to make that a fulfilling experience.

(57:28):
And then your book of truth and honesty and and compassion as a
mother. Yeah.
You know, it's it is the kind ofbook that I wish that I've had,
you know, when I was a newer mother and I did ultimately
find, you know, books were really instrumental in helping
me find my way out of that period of losing myself, You

(57:51):
know, books like a Life's Work by Rachel Cusk, which is a
beautiful memoir, truth telling memoir of her first year as a
mother. You know, it was literature
really that helped me, that helped me out.
And so, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, new parents are
flooded with so much like, kind of self help, you know,
informational texts. Yeah.

(58:11):
But yeah, like more imaginative literature.
I think in reading imaginative literature during that time can
also be a comfort and a way of seeing alternative ways of doing
it. Yeah, I mean, I remember when my
kids were very young, I made a friend at a baby music group and

(58:31):
we became close and would get together with the kids or I'm
again, they were very little, like like 4 and under or we'd
get together ourselves. And I remember one time she told
me she was leaving her family and she got an apartment nearby
and she was in the process of ordering kid bedroom furniture

(58:52):
so that her kids could stay withher as well as in the home where
her husband was living. And I just remember sitting
across from her at a restaurant thinking who are you?
What what is what the fuck is wrong with you?
A mother. This this isn't this isn't
reality. I've never seen anything
presented. Now since then there probably

(59:14):
been movies that show women. I don't was they blowing up
their lives? But but being authentic and not
doing the straight and narrow and she's like, this is not what
I want anymore. This is, you know, he's a great
guy. He's a great dad, but I don't
want to be with him anymore. And I don't feel suffocating in

(59:34):
my house. And she went from a sort of
traditional medical job to something more natural and the
stuff I'm into now. But at the time I was like, what
is I or Veda, what are you doing?
You know, like just, and she, you know, got a tattoo and just
like the whole thing seems so fringe.

(59:56):
And now with this perspective ofof like 15 years on me, I'm
like, she was so brave that she didn't stay just because that's
the societal norm. Yeah.
And I think there always are pioneers among us, right?
They're always people who kind of take these steps before the

(01:00:18):
rest of us, for sure. Yeah.
I think my, my book, you know, Iturn to my literary foremothers
as guideposts over and over and over again because I'm certainly
not the first, you know, woman to write about these things.
I'm filtering it through my own being, my own essence, my own
perspective. But, you know, I turn to

(01:00:39):
Virginia Woolf, who is writing about dual consciousness and the
split in US, you know, and the Victorian error.
So you know and. Right, right.
Chopin and all of these ideas that have been with us for a
while, but but but those those foremothers have been really
important in my own life and I wanted to give a nod to them.

(01:01:00):
I think it's awesome. I love the way you did that.
Well, please, Nicole, tell. Tell the audience where to find
you, follow you, and get your book.
Sure. So my website is Nicole Grave
lipson.com, and I have lots of links to my writing there and

(01:01:21):
also purchase links for my book as well.
But my book Mothers and other Fictional Characters, you know,
is really available in any online retailer, Amazon,
bookshop.org or get it at your local independent, which I
always like to support local independent bookstores.
Yeah. And you can find me on Instagram
at Ng Lipson. Amazing.

(01:01:43):
Well, I just, I've loved everything about this
conversation and yeah. Is there any final piece of
advice that you want to share that I haven't LED you to speak
yet? Final piece of advice I would
just say, and it's something I try to practice with myself all

(01:02:04):
the time, is just being forgiving with oneself, being
forgiving with oneself, even if you find yourself unable to
resist some of these pressures, right?
Like to say like we are in a Crucible in a lot of ways and
these things are hard, you know,and it's a work in progress.

(01:02:26):
So just to be easy on ourselves,because the world is going to be
hard on us, we need to, we need to take the lead in being easy
on ourselves. Yes.
Wow. All right.
Well, on that note, I want to invite you to raise a glass.
As we say, cheers to may you have interesting sideline

(01:02:49):
conversations. Oh, Amen.
Yes, lots of interesting conversations.
I'll drink tonight. And since we are sideline
sisters, we often find ourselveson the sidelines of the the the
massive log of games we have to attend or events, performances.
So here's to great conversations.
Yes, here's to better. Conversations And on that note,

(01:03:13):
Nicole, it has been an absolute pleasure and educational,
uplifting journey talking to youand I'm so glad you were here to
share all of this brilliance with the audience.
Thank you so much Jenny, I lovedchatting and thank you for
having me on I. Wish you so much success with
the book and any other endeavor you decide to pursue.

(01:03:37):
Thank. You.
Same to you. Well, in celebration of summer
reading, how about we all pick up mothers and other fictional
characters for our next beach read?
And maybe grab a copy to give your bestie mom friend Nicole
dropped a lot of brilliant insight into this conversation,
so let's get into her Notes fromthe sidelines #1 Oftentimes,
needing an income paves a path toward finding a career, which

(01:04:01):
in turn becomes our identity. But in the process we lose our
connection to creativity #2 there is this perfect mother
archetype that pressures us intotrying to be the kind of mother
who doesn't mess her kids up, ispatient, self sacrificing and
doting #3 We've been taught thatour child's growth and success

(01:04:25):
are linked to our every move, leaving no room for error, and
as a result makes it very difficult for moms to lean into
that creative side #4 Nothing makes you realize life is
fleeting like parenthood. Seeing our children grow up
right before our eyes proves to us that time is finite.

(01:04:47):
So please use it the way your heart wants #5 So many of our
experiences prove valuable and impactful even when we don't
realize it at the time. It takes the hindsight
perspective for us to see the significance of all the small
points on our timelines. Number six, the active writing

(01:05:09):
helps bring understanding to confusing topics.
Not necessarily full comprehension, but a little bit
of clarity and appreciation #7 there's nothing more dynamic
than parenthood. We as parents are growing, our
children are growing and changing, and the world at large
is in constant flux #8 The quoteUnspeakable topics are only

(01:05:34):
unspeakable until someone like Nicole has the courage to speak
them. And this very idea comes up in
next week's conversation with author Karen Grossman.
So stay tuned for that episode #9.
Safety. The full body feeling of being
safe and secure in our relationships makes

(01:05:54):
vulnerability and complexity possible #10 Nicole addresses
what she terms maternal solitudedeficit.
She names and normalizes the inner conflict of wanting to be
there for our kids and also wanting alone time #11 it is
incumbent upon us mothers to actdifferently.

(01:06:15):
We have a very important role increating the conditions around
us and rejecting the ridiculous perfect mother archetype and
crafting something realistic andattainable #12 Say no to things
you don't want to do and #13 be forgiving with yourself.
Even if it's hard to resist the societal pressures, just go easy

(01:06:36):
on yourself. So I want to encourage you all
to grab a copy of Nicole Grave, Lipson's Mothers and Other
Fictional Characters and drop a comment on the Instagram post
for this episode and let us knowwhat you think.
Which essay stood out as most relatable or most intriguing?
Most shocking? We want to hear from you, and I

(01:06:57):
want to thank you for tuning in.Please, as always, take a moment
to give this show five stars, write a review on Apple Podcasts
and share this episode with a mom friend who you know needs to
hear the messages Nicole shared.I'm so grateful for all of you
listeners, and I'll see you right back here next week for my

(01:07:18):
conversation with Karen Grossman.
Cheers to you.

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79 - Nicole Graev Lipson exposes the challenges of motherhood

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}79 - Nicole Graev Lipson exposes the challenges of motherhood