September 18, 2025 • 37 mins
Marsha Andre shares her powerful journey through a terminal cancer diagnosis at age 23, revealing how facing mortality transformed her understanding of life, faith, and purpose.
• Diagnosed with late-stage non-Hodgkin's lymphoma at 23, shortly after college graduation
• Underwent experimental bone marrow transplant treatment described as "standing a mile away from Chernobyl"
• Faced the devastating news she would never have children as a side effect of treatment
• Faith during treatment often consisted of simple one-word prayers: "Help"
• Found herself unable to imagine a future more than a few days ahead during recovery
• Cancer experience led her to pursue counseling as a profession to help others through trauma
• Uses her experience to validate clients' pain and create authentic connections
• Describes fear as a "death grip" that can be managed by intentionally focusing elsewhere
• Believes there are no shortcuts through pain – only going through it with compassion
• Cancer gave her the "superpower" of seeing life differently and embracing opportunities
If you've been touched by cancer or are supporting someone through their journey, we offer a free course called "Building Your Resistance Against Cancer." Reach out to us privately for more information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waarde (00:00):
Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversations.
I'm so glad that you've joinedus.
I am thrilled to be able tointroduce my guest to you today.
I have known our guest for manyyears we were counting earlier,
I think it's like 45 some oddyears that I've known these
people and I am excited aboutletting you in on our
(00:21):
relationship as well.
But before I do, I just want tomake a little comment and set
up our conversation in this way.
Many of you who've beenfollowing the podcast know that
I have had a cancer diagnosisfor the last six years, and part
of the question I've beenasking in this period of time is
not only Lord, would you helpme get better, but how do you
(00:42):
want to redeem the journey?
So I had this sense very earlyon that there was a way in which
God would take this pastoralgifting and calling that he's
given me alongside my cancerdiagnosis and then provide
opportunities for me to servecancer families and the warriors
themselves who are workingthrough this often terrible and
frustrating disease workingthrough this often terrible and
(01:03):
frustrating disease.
And so when I had that kind ofrevelation, if you will, one of
the things that I determined wasthat I would use whatever
platforms I'm given to providehope and help for people who
find themselves in that sameposition.
So not all our programs arerevolving around cancer, but
today's is, and it is a story ofa person that has been an
(01:27):
inspiration to me, particularlyafter I got my own diagnosis,
because I remember looking backat her story and her journey and
finding a lot of hope and helpthere, and so I'm very excited
about introducing her to you,and I think you will appreciate
her story as much as I have.
(01:58):
As we start, I'd like to firstof all give a recognition to our
sponsor today.
I want to say thank you to mydaughter, who happens to be the
entrepreneur behind Amasuk.
Amasuk is a company thatsources ethically the handbags
and other works of artisans fromMexico, japan, morocco, and
(02:21):
she's opening up new lines allthe time, and so if you are now
even thinking about like, whatdo I need to get my wife or my
mom for Christmas, now's thetime to begin shopping, and you
can find some really great dealsand great handiwork on her site
that's amasukcom, where you canfind all kinds of handbags,
(02:43):
belts and other kinds ofaccessories that will serve you
well and for those you love.
So check that out.
Thank you, mallory, for yoursponsorship of this program.
I now want to turn my attentionto my dear friend, marsha Andre
.
Marsha Andre (02:57):
Thank you for joining me today.
I feel so honored to be herethat you invited me to share
this part of my life.
Piet Van Waarde (03:04):
I do think that you are probably the guest
that's traveled the furthest tobe on the podcast.
I kind of threw it out as anidea last time we were together,
I think on our trip to Floridawe get together with some old
friends and I kind of jokinglysaid hey, would you ever come do
my?
Oh yeah.
Marsha Andre (03:22):
I'll come and do it.
Of course we will.
Piet Van Waarde (03:23):
Come and do it.
Marsha Andre (03:24):
Yes, yes, I'm up for accepting any adventure
there might be ahead of me.
Piet Van Waarde (03:29):
Well, we met in college and your husband, who
we'll be introducing next week,was the best man at my wedding.
So we go way back and we'vebeen close friends ever since.
Marsha Andre (03:39):
And we kind of started dating at your wedding.
That was the day that we-.
Piet Van Waarde (03:43):
I did not know that.
Marsha Andre (03:44):
Yes, I remember the moment.
We were kind of-.
Piet Van Waarde (03:47):
You got starstruck, didn't you?
Marsha Andre (03:50):
There was a moment at your wedding that kind of
started our own journey together.
I love that Well.
Piet Van Waarde (03:56):
I'm going to have to ask him about that in
our podcast.
Marsha Andre (03:58):
All right, maybe you will.
Piet Van Waarde (04:01):
All right, all right, but I want to bring focus
to your own healing journey,which started way back not long
after we met each other incollege.
We had a small group togetherand we did some of our vacations
together.
And I still remember that onone of those vacation trips that
we did in California, there wasa moment, I think we were at a
(04:23):
restaurant or something, andyour husband touched your neck
and felt a lump.
Marsha Andre (04:28):
Felt a lump.
I was 22, 23, great shape,healthy.
Yeah, we had graduated fromcollege and had just journeyed
up to New England where wedidn't know anybody.
So we're grateful for ourgatherings of community, and it
(04:52):
was at that trip.
Yesterday found a lump.
Piet Van Waarde (04:55):
And then you got a diagnosis, not shortly
thereafter.
Marsha Andre (04:58):
We got back and quickly got in to a doctor who
said oh, you know, you've gotnon-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
Let's just do a little bit oftreatment here and off you go.
Oh, actually he thought it wasHodgkin's.
We ended up getting into one ofthe major hospitals in Boston,
at which point and of course Ithink we may all remember the
(05:20):
moments that we're told yeah um.
Life stands still and you'retold that, oh no, this is cancer
and this is not a good cancer,oh my gosh right, right, right
yet beginning of my life, thebeginning of my wide-eyed
anticipation of all that wasahead yeah and life stopped.
(05:41):
And every time we went, youknow, we were getting worse and
worse.
News that it was in the laststage of development, that there
was no cure, that, you know,there was not a lot of success
in terms of longevity.
And so at that moment, I'm 23and thinking this is the end.
Piet Van Waarde (06:09):
This is the end .
This is the end.
And then did you?
You?
Marsha Andre (06:10):
went into treatment right, Went into
treatment.
We were able to get intoexperimental treatment where
someone mentioned it's a shot ata cure, and at that the
language was cure rates, like wehave a two-year cure rate.
And so I remember, just in fearand trepidation, calling the
oncologist and saying you said,cure Like, do you think does
that mean cure?
Cure Like, really Like forevercure.
(06:33):
And he said yes, and I justremember, again, another life
stops.
And so again, this experimentaltreatment was a shot at trying
to give me a life.
Piet Van Waarde (06:44):
You know, Experimental treatment was a
shot at trying to give me a life.
Wow, you know small percentageof hope.
How long did the treatment last?
Marsha Andre (06:52):
before, you kind of felt like you were kind of in
the clear.
Well, one more part I shouldshare of that story is the next
time that we went in they saidoh, by the way, you won't be
able to have children.
So that was just almost.
It's a big deal, but almost anincidental view.
It's almost not as relevantwhen you're fighting for a shot
at life.
Yeah for sure.
But looking back again, it'sone of those things that changes
(07:13):
your life forever.
Yeah, but went into anexperimental bone marrow
transplant protocol where I knewthat they were going to.
Part of it was they're going totry to do everything they
possibly can, hit it with thebiggest sledgehammer they can.
They said you've stood a mileaway from Chernobyl, so we're
going to just hit it witheverything we got.
Wow, yeah, wow.
Piet Van Waarde (07:35):
But that was like a long time ago, and here
you are, here I am here, I am.
Marsha Andre (07:39):
You know.
There were churches at thattime that just committed to
24-hour prayer vigils for threemonths.
Piet Van Waarde (07:47):
Wow Because.
Marsha Andre (07:53):
I do think because I was 23,.
You know, it's such anout-of-season experience.
So I remember my thinking inthe beginning being all right,
you know, I'm going to take allthis energy and grit that I have
and I'm just going to, we'regoing to hit it, I'm going to
make it through, I'm just goingto push and I'm going to take
all this energy and grit that Ihave and we're going to hit it,
I'm going to make it through,I'm just going to push and I'm
going to survive.
Good for you.
Then they put the chemo in mybody and within 20 minutes of
(08:16):
what I knew was going to bereally intense chemo, within 20
minutes I could feel all thechemicals going through your
body and I'm like all my grit,all my will, I'm just surviving.
Wow, Because then we began justgetting sick Like every 20
(08:37):
minutes for day after day afterday, week after week.
So the treatment was brutal.
It was really brutal.
Piet Van Waarde (08:45):
And how long?
Marsha Andre (08:46):
was it?
Getting ready for thetransplant took maybe three
rounds of significant treatmentand then you get treatment and
then it's three weeks gettingyour body ready for the next
round and then the transplantitself was a month, four to five
weeks.
Because they're killing offeverything in your body that can
reproduce.
They're just wanting to reallykill everything that can be you
(09:10):
know, I don't know reproduce.
And then they're putting yournew.
You know they spun it out.
You know they're takingsomething out of your body, your
cells, and trying to get themcancer free so that when the
time comes they're going to putthem back in you and hope it
really pre-produces somethinghealthy.
Piet Van Waarde (09:29):
Yeah, and so how long was that?
From the time you got yourdiagnosis, you went through all
that.
Marsha Andre (09:33):
I think the diagnosis was June and I came
out Thanksgiving.
Piet Van Waarde (09:37):
All right.
Marsha Andre (09:38):
So six months of pretty intense, pretty intense
yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (09:41):
Right, and my guess is that, like given the
seriousness of your diagnosis,there's always that little fear
in the back of your mind,particularly early on, where
it's like did they get it all,Is it?
Marsha Andre (09:53):
going to come back .
How did you like move forwardafter they did all that I mean
like was it a part of yourthinking, when you have to face
what you believe is your deathand they're saying we're going
(10:15):
to give you a shot, but you know, statistically, all the odds
are probably not in your favor.
How do you move forward?
How do you live?
How do you anticipate a future?
I think for a long time I justwould not even let myself go and
imagine a life that might befive years out.
(10:36):
It felt too risky to me.
Piet Van Waarde (10:38):
I can imagine.
Marsha Andre (10:39):
So I think I just was living truly in the
day-to-day and just you know,you're in a survival mentality I
have today.
I'm getting through today.
Piet Van Waarde (10:48):
I can imagine so I'm just going to seize it,
wow, wow.
So I'm just going to seize it,wow, wow.
And so like did you, because Iknow you're also now a highly
sought after counselor.
You have a great practice andstuff.
Did you even give yourselfpermission to imagine that some
of that might be possible?
Marsha Andre (11:09):
It was because of this.
It was after I got through, andI should mention I don't know
if I said that my dad had beenwho was a deep, amazing man of
faith, had the same diagnosis.
I was 10 years old and Iwatched him suffer and die after
four years.
So I thought me who feels likeI couldn't, not me who feels
(11:32):
like I couldn't.
You know, he was a giant offaith.
Piet Van Waarde (11:38):
How am I?
How will I?
Marsha Andre (11:38):
make it through this.
It's hard for me to imagine, sothe whole faith part of it was
a little challenging.
Piet Van Waarde (11:47):
Let's talk about that.
Okay, you said you had somepeople praying.
Marsha Andre (11:52):
I did.
Piet Van Waarde (11:54):
More than just praying like doing visuals.
But how did your own faith playin to the healing process for
you?
Marsha Andre (12:01):
I would like to say that I was deeply holding on
to my faith through thisjourney.
I think sometimes the only wordI could get out was help, like
it was truly feeling, like therewas a torrent of water and I'm
holding on to a limb and I'mhoping just to survive,
(12:22):
whatever's happening in thatmoment it was yeah, they were
days of survival.
And then, looking back, youknow I have deep gratitude and
then, looking back, I have deepgratitude.
Thank you, god.
The river subsided, I'm on thelimb and I'm still here.
(12:42):
I'm so grateful.
So it's hard for me to think ayear out, even though I know I
don't know.
You live in the big, I don'tknow, and you have to manage the
uncertainty that we all have.
This just kind of gets you onthe fast course gets you on the
(13:03):
fast course of living with Idon't know, but God is truly.
My life is in your hands.
I've known that theoretically.
Piet Van Waarde (13:08):
I bet.
Marsha Andre (13:10):
Now I get it viscerally that I don't know,
and my life is in your hands Now.
Piet Van Waarde (13:15):
I get it viscerally that I don't know,
and my life is in your hands.
Marsha Andre (13:21):
There is such a difference between being able to
articulate a theological truthand live it right.
That, more than anything else,is you know, you know, you know
cognitively, all the truths thatyou believe you've built your
life on, all the truths that youbelieve you've built your life
on.
And then, in a moment when itstarts happening, and you're you
know, when the shock and thedespair and the my life is now
(13:42):
over, it's just you get adifferent, you just get a
different.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (13:51):
Yeah, I've told this story before, but you know
, as you're describing it, Iremember that after my surgery,
so they had to take my kidney,my prostate, some lymph nodes,
and I was at Mayo Clinic and itwas one of those nights where I
couldn't sleep.
I was in so much pain and I wasalso questioning my future,
like is this really it.
(14:12):
Is it over?
Am I over?
Is it like?
Am I going to make it?
And I still remember like Ilooked at the clock on the wall
and I thought I had survived forfive, 10, 15 minutes and it was
like a minute, you know.
And you're just like like, Ilove that image of holding on
because that's really what it is.
(14:33):
It is.
You're just like okay, I'mgoing to hold on for another
minute and.
God, I hope you'll meet me inthis minute.
Right, and then all of a suddenit turns into the two, three,
five minutes and you wake up inthe morning and you're still
there, yeah, and there is supergratitude and joy.
(14:54):
Okay, I made it through thenight I made it.
Marsha Andre (14:57):
I made it through another night.
Piet Van Waarde (14:59):
Right, okay.
So then you start gettingbetter, you start feeling better
, and then you decide okay, well, I guess I'm going to be here
yet for a while.
Marsha Andre (15:11):
I'll take the time I have.
Yes, what am I going to do withit?
Right, it kind of matters now,because I don't know how much
there is.
Piet Van Waarde (15:18):
So what led you into counseling?
Is that something that was likebirthed in you a long time ago?
Marsha Andre (15:23):
No, I had no thought of it.
It was never a thought in mymind.
I'm working at a company, Ihave business undergrad and when
I graduated and when I got outof my transplant, I thought,
okay, what am I going to do withmy life that feels meaningful
and has purpose?
I don't know if I want to goback and improve the bottom line
of a company.
Don't know if that's what Iwant to do with this time.
(15:45):
So I started looking throughthe classified section of the
newspaper and thought what grabsme, what feels meaningful?
And then I found out about thisMSW degree.
I didn't know what it was andthought I'm going to go back to
grad school and see if I cancultivate some skills to kind of
(16:08):
show up for other people whoare walking through the
unimaginable, who are walkingthrough pain.
I feel like that's my life.
Now I get it and I just want togo alongside of people who are
doing that.
Piet Van Waarde (16:21):
So would you say that you're like it sounds
like your diagnosis definitelyprovided the pivot?
Marsha Andre (16:27):
It did.
It was the pivot Incentive forthe pivot.
Piet Van Waarde (16:31):
Would you say that your diagnosis also
affected how you entered thepractice, like how you started
counseling, how you startedthinking about helping people?
Marsha Andre (16:41):
It did.
It does affect it because Iremember applying for my first
job and I'm young to enter intoa private practice or a
counseling practice and I justthought, oh my gosh, I'm too
young to do this.
But I remember them saying youknow, there is a sense about you
.
We feel like you've gone,you've had some just tough
(17:05):
things you've walked through.
You know, we sense somethingdifferent, some maturity about
you, and it was my cancer and itwas my cancer.
It was the transformation thathappens to you when you face the
dark night of your soul, whenyou face death and have to come
back, so that I think it lent alevel of their belief that I
(17:26):
could show up and maybe withother people who are struggling,
in a way that would create somecredibility.
Piet Van Waarde (17:32):
Yeah, I wonder if you had the same experience
Like I think one of the things Inoticed in terms of the work I
do now is that not only do youmaybe have some perspective
that's helpful, but you alsohave a pretty clear idea of
what's not helpful.
Right, right, Do you have thatsense in your practice?
Yeah, I have some stories aboutthat.
Marsha Andre (17:53):
You know, because again we read all the things,
all the things how not to showup for someone who's just had a
trauma?
Or tragedy, but I certainlyheard it.
I mean, I remember rightafterwards, like right
afterwards, someone cornering meand saying you know, what sin
have you committed?
You know, like literally, likewhat do you need to confess
(18:14):
Because you know God has visitedthis on you for a certain
reason?
Piet Van Waarde (18:18):
And.
Marsha Andre (18:18):
I remember my husband stood in front of me and
took that on and I'm like youknow, because I'm still in shock
and trauma over the diagnosisand you know, it's just.
You know the constant.
Sometimes we don't know how tobe there for people.
So I think, okay, I'm going togo to school, I'm going to
(18:40):
figure out how to show up forpeople in a way that hopefully
allows them to feel heard.
Piet Van Waarde (18:48):
Yeah, and helped, and helped, and helped,
right, right, don't make itworse.
Right, because it is a lonelyFirst.
Do not harm.
Marsha Andre (18:56):
And there's a loneliness that comes from this,
Because no one can be in themiddle of the night with you
feeling what you feel.
There's no words to describe it.
Right?
You know the kind of real deeppain of I don't know if I can
survive it another minutebecause it feels too much.
(19:16):
And do I want to keep going ifthis is what I'm feeling?
Piet Van Waarde (19:19):
Right.
Marsha Andre (19:19):
And there's an isolation and a loneliness that
come from that place.
So you know, I think if there'sany way of being present to
someone as they're able to eventouch just a bit of that, yeah,
I think that can be a little bitof relief.
Piet Van Waarde (19:38):
Well, and just giving them words for it right.
So I think sometimes certainlytrue for me the emotions become
so overwhelming that you don'teven know how to describe it.
But then if you hear somebodyelse talk, about it.
You're like oh yeah, that'swhat I felt.
And then when you put words totalk about it and you're like,
oh yeah, that's what I felt,that.
And then when you put words toit, it actually gives you an
(19:58):
opportunity to kind of accessresources that address that need
and just kind of gives part thehealing process right, it's
true it's true.
So, um, as you look back on yourcancer experience I I know that
this, as people have asked methis question, it's kind of hard
time, you know, kind ofsummarizing it, but I'm going to
let you feel the same pain Ifelt um, what?
(20:19):
What are some of the thingsthat you feel like have shaped
your life as a result of thecancer experience, like how were
you different?
How are you like?
What are some of the?
Marsha Andre (20:29):
lessons, if you will that you learned from all
that?
I would not wish this path onanyone.
But if you're on this path youdo get a little superpower, you
get a little unique gift andthat is the gift of and I know
(20:49):
it's cliche, but it's true thatlife feels different, Life is
different, the brevity of lifebecomes more real yeah the this
moment matters.
That's why you said, hey, doyou want to come?
And I'm like, of course I'mgonna come you know, yes,
becomes a word yes is a way thatyou I mean, why would I say no?
(21:09):
because I, I'm gonna take it all, I'm gonna take it all, I'm
going to take it, I'm going totake life for what I can I love
it.
I'm going to face down whateverI need to face down and embrace
it, whether it's relationships,whether it's experiences, I
want it.
Piet Van Waarde (21:26):
I have heard so many people use some of those
exact same words.
They'll start by saying I wouldnot wish this on anybody.
Marsha Andre (21:33):
Okay, all right, all right words.
Piet Van Waarde (21:34):
They'll start by saying I would not wish this
on anybody and at the same time,there is a gift that I've been
given that I would not have beengiven without the diagnosis,
which sounds like crazy.
Marsha Andre (21:45):
It does sound crazy.
Piet Van Waarde (21:47):
But I totally get it too.
There is something that happensin your soul and there's things
that you know.
We learn things different ways.
So we can read something or wecan watch something.
We say, like by observation orby engaging certain material
resources we learn.
But there's a whole differentkind of learning that happens
(22:07):
when you walk through anexperience, especially when it
regards lots of suffering.
It does you discover you hadthings you didn't think you had
and that your faith really willhold up in the midst of it Not
to say you don't have any doubtsduring it, but, like you said,
in retrospect you can say youknow what it really did carry me
(22:29):
through those prayers reallydid make a difference Absolutely
.
And holding on to the promisesthat I understood from the
scriptures, that they do.
They are a firm foundationright, yes, so yeah.
Marsha Andre (22:42):
Though I walk through the valley of the shadow
of death.
Piet Van Waarde (22:44):
I will fear.
Marsha Andre (22:44):
no evil has a different meaning.
Piet Van Waarde (22:46):
Yeah.
Marsha Andre (22:46):
Yeah, it just has a different meaning.
Yeah, and again in my work withmy clients who are all there
from deep trauma, hurt, you knowfor one, I know we all have a
story.
Piet Van Waarde (22:56):
Yeah.
Marsha Andre (22:56):
You know, most people have a story that isn't
always shared.
And when people have a chanceto share their story and when
people find healing, I've alwayssensed even if I go amongst out
in the community in my lifepeople who had deep suffering
and who have recovered well,meaning they haven't gone to
(23:17):
bitterness and despair butthey've just found their way
through.
You can sense it in people.
You know they're beautifulpeople who have suffered and
found a way to get back to hopeand to life and to living.
Piet Van Waarde (23:33):
Yeah, so found a way to get back to hope and to
life and to living?
Yeah, so I want to touch onsome subjects that are like more
specific, as it relates to notjust cancer but just like living
life.
But maybe with cancer it has alike they are more in the
forefront.
So I think one of the thingsI've noticed is that fear is a
(23:56):
regular part of life, you know.
Fear of will it come back, fearof what you know.
What would I go through if youknow I pass prematurely?
What's going to happen with mykids, my husband, you know my
family, so it's present.
It's like you don't invite it,it just it's just there, and so
(24:18):
we have to have ways of ofnavigating it and processing it,
and I'm just curious, and youcan answer this like either way
or maybe both like what do youdo yourself, because I'm sure
even now you know you like itcould come back, and then, and
then also maybe how you helpothers.
What are some strategies forprocessing fear?
Marsha Andre (24:42):
For one, I would certainly just validate the
power of it, um, and howunwelcome it is and how, in a
moment, it can just show up andgrip, and just grip your soul.
It feels like a death grip andthat's hard, you know how.
When that happens, what do youdo?
And there's lots of things wecould that are kind of
(25:02):
cliche-ish, you know.
Just trust God and you know,move on, or you know all those
different things, and I wouldsay my fear in particular it was
, it felt like it was right infront of me all the time as life
has gone on and you go aboutliving, it somehow seems to move
itself to the side, you know,so it's in my peripheral view.
Piet Van Waarde (25:27):
And do you think that's like on purpose,
like do you feel like if you cangive yourself permission to
think about life, it will bynatural?
Marsha Andre (25:36):
like'm like fueling the fire of it.
My whole body doesn't know.
I'm just imagining, you know,my whole body is reacting as if
(25:58):
it's true, and then I can'tsettle it down.
It's like almost running hot.
Um so, rather than tell myself,don't think about it, which is
yeah that's not happening I Ijust find if I really am
intentional about what I dothink about if.
I go about living life fully.
(26:18):
It just seems to just take alittle bit of.
It just seems to go into theback burner a little bit, yeah
yeah.
A little bit, yeah yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (26:29):
And you know, you hear people talk about and
we've had conversations in othersettings about this.
But you know, there areprinciples, there's scriptures
that people kind of come back toas like I'm going to hold on to
this.
I'm going to hang on to thispromise you know.
(26:49):
These are the things I repeatto myself.
Did you have anything like thatthat served you well in terms
of navigating?
Marsha Andre (26:53):
the fear equation.
Well, my life verse is relevantin this, which is trust in the
Lord with all your heart, leannot on your own understanding,
and all your ways acknowledgehim.
So I just felt like that's myprayer of surrender.
Like you know, the other thingthat I held to deeply was the
(27:15):
story of Daniel.
You know, I really reallyrelated to getting thrown into
the fiery furnace and I thoughtI don't know if I'm going to
come out.
I might get burned alive, whichkind of feels like it.
But if he saves me, he'll saveme and I had to.
I mean, that's an easy thing tosay, but it's a constant
(27:39):
decision to go your way, notmine.
You know your way, not mine.
I'm trusting you with whateverI have and whatever shows up.
And again, I was told I was outof remission multiple times.
So I've had practice of onemore time.
And then again there'simplications.
When you've had as much chemoand radiation as I've had, I've
(28:03):
got damage to my lungs, I've gotsome heart issues.
But then again I get practiceright.
I've had 40 years of practice.
I'm going okay.
One more round of uncertainty,you know we have children.
One more round, lots of roundsof uncertainty.
And how do I want to live?
You know that becomes myquestion is I don't have any
(28:26):
control over what's going toland on my lap.
I don't have any say over whathappens.
What shows up tomorrow, thephone call I might get this
afternoon.
All I can do is decide how Iwant to live through it, how I
want to walk through that doorand remind myself over and over
again, grab the hands of mypeople, my friends and family,
(28:48):
and trust that, whatever it is,I'm going to hold on tight and
let happen whatever happens.
Piet Van Waarde (28:59):
I love how you mentioned that, because it's
been something that I've beenkind of pondering a lot myself
lately, that this power ofchoice is so real.
Power of choice is so real,like sometimes you know you're
driven by things whether it's,you know, emotion or tapes
playing in the back of your mindabout who you are or what you
(29:21):
can't do and you know thosethings really do have influence.
But at the end of the day, likeyou said, we get a choice about
like am.
I going to allow those messages, those fears those anxieties to
determine my behaviors and mychoices?
Or am I going to say you know,what?
Yeah, all of that might be true, all of that may have impact,
(29:45):
but that's not where I'm going.
Marsha Andre (29:47):
It's not what I'm going to do.
And you hear the energy of yourvoice.
Yeah, it almost takes a footstomping.
Like no, like no, yes, I'm notgiving it.
I refuse to let my life go thatway.
Piet Van Waarde (30:01):
Yeah, I'm reminded of Peter.
He had that moment with Jesuswhere Jesus is speaking to the
crowd and he's saying somereally hard things and people
start peeling off right andthey're going in different
directions.
And Jesus is watching that andhe turns to the disciples and he
(30:21):
says so are you guys going toleave too?
And I like to imagine thatpicture in my mind where Peter
is thinking about it.
He's like you know what?
You're saying some stuff thatI'm not sure I can live with.
And then it's almost as thoughI can imagine him in his mind's
eye saying yeah, but where am Igoing to go?
(30:44):
Like who has the words of?
Marsha Andre (30:46):
life.
What's my option?
Piet Van Waarde (30:48):
And then he chooses.
He's just like you know whatOther people may leave.
Other people may do otherthings, but you know what?
This is where I'm going to putmy trust.
This is where I'm going to land.
Marsha Andre (31:00):
Yeah, yes, You've got the words life.
Piet Van Waarde (31:03):
Yes, not doing anything else.
Thank you for my mini-surgery.
Not an easy decision, no, no.
Marsha Andre (31:10):
It's so powerful because it's not that it's easy,
it's not that you even thinkyou have the capacity.
Piet Van Waarde (31:16):
Yeah.
Marsha Andre (31:20):
I'd say we don't have the capacity If we all knew
what was ahead of us.
How many of us would just sayno, but it is the.
Peter made a decision in thatmoment.
He was sober-minded and said,okay, I'll take the next step.
Yeah, I'll take the next step.
Yeah, I don't think he knew itwas like.
I don't think he knew it wasahead of him.
Piet Van Waarde (31:37):
You know Well, he may have even known that,
like, if this is, this is whathe's talking about now it's
probably going to get harder.
Marsha Andre (31:44):
It's going to get harder, right, right.
Piet Van Waarde (31:47):
All right.
One last question about pain,because people who are in
treatment and then people whoyou know for a number of other
reasons, health concerns or evenemotional and even past pains
and hurts have to process deeplevels of pain.
And when you're hurting likeyou just want to cash it all in.
(32:13):
You just want to say like justlet it be over, you know, or
give me something that will likenumb it all out.
What are you like both?
What did you do?
What do you do?
Marsha Andre (32:30):
How do you help other people navigate pain, the
problem of pain?
Question a question for alltime, really, really, because I
think it's our human nature,just our nature, to just run,
yeah, or?
Numb out yeah, whatever ittakes to not have to walk
(32:51):
through the fire, mm-hmm.
And if I thought any of thosemethods were the shortcut, I'd
take them.
You know, if I thought therewas another way through except
through, I'd probably find itMm-hmm, but there isn't, and I
don't know if there's any easyanswer for that.
Piet Van Waarde (33:12):
Yeah, you know, come on, counselor I isn't and
I don't know if there's any easyanswer for that, you know.
Marsha Andre (33:21):
I don't, I don't.
I've certainly heard that in myoffice.
Isn't there another way?
You know, do I have to be inthe life that I have right now,
facing down the things that Ihave to face down, you know,
whether it's losing a child,whether it's getting a diagnosis
, whether someone just walkedout after 50 years, whatever it
is, you know, isn't there anyway to not feel this?
And I just, I believe in thepower of grief and I think if we
don't grieve, it comes outsideways.
(33:42):
It ends up hurting those welove most.
And so that's why, if griefshows up, if panic or pain show
up, I don't want to focus on it,but I often say I'm going to
put my hands right here on myheart and just offer my own self
compassion and kindness, notjudgment, but just to be present
(34:07):
, however I can, and say Godhelp.
However I can and say God helpand just know that eventually
that deep, severe pain will comeand it will go.
It's almost like standing thereand the waves of the ocean are
going to crash over you andyou're not sure you're going to
stand and survive it.
You can feel your feet kind ofsinking down into the wet sand,
(34:28):
but it's stand and stand andthen no, and just no, no, no,
it's going to come, it's goingto go, and you're just saying
God help me in this moment.
Face down what's right here inmy life and help me have the
courage to be here, just to behere with it.
Piet Van Waarde (34:43):
You know, I appreciate you saying that,
because sometimes people willlook at you, know somebody like
yourself and you know you'vegone through so much, you're so
strong, and then the messagemight be like I got to be strong
like that, I got to like stiffupper lip it, but to be able to
acknowledge that it's okay tocry out for help.
(35:06):
You know like I am not strongenough for this.
Lord Right, this is too much.
It is too much.
You know help, I am not strongenough for this.
Lord Right, this is too much.
It is too much Help me.
Marsha Andre (35:15):
It is Meet me.
Piet Van Waarde (35:17):
And that like desperate cry there's like and I
don't think it's justpsychological, but I think
there's something reallypowerful from a spiritual
perspective to like just let itall out and say I need your
intervention.
Marsha Andre (35:30):
Lord, Absolutely I need your help.
Piet Van Waarde (35:32):
Please meet me in this moment, Right right and
it's not, like you said, themagic formula.
So now it's no longer hard, butit's like somehow even those
words become like prayers andthey give you some measure of
relief in the middle of the pain.
Marsha Andre (35:50):
It's true, it's like find the nearest hand of
someone you love and hold ittight.
I remember during one of my Idon't know, it was like a spinal
tap kind of thing bone marrowbiopsy.
Anyway, it was bad, and I justhad a nurse and I think I might
have broken some hands, I mighthave broken her fingers, broken
(36:13):
her fingers because that's aliteral that.
You know the literal pain of it.
I just found myselfinstinctively just grabbing so
hard.
But I'm just how great, oh mygosh.
I just told her afterwards thankgod for you yeah, yeah because
that human contact from someoneI didn't even know helped me get
through it love it.
Piet Van Waarde (36:30):
Yeah, wellha, thank you so much for your
vulnerability.
It's so good to see you.
Thank you for making the tripout here, Absolutely so grateful
for your story and for yourkindness and our friendship over
the years.
Absolutely.
Marsha Andre (36:43):
I cheer on all those that are going through
hard times.
You know whether it's cancer orother things.
You know we're talking aboutthe universality of pain, the
unknown, and what that means tobe human, what it means to not
be strong, what it means to grabonto a hand and pray to God for
help.
Yeah, yeah, so glad to be here,Thank you.
Piet Van Waarde (37:06):
And thank you for joining us for another
Sidewalk Conversation.
I hope that you found some helpand encouragement from the
things that we shared.
As always, you are free toreach out if there's a way that
we can be of help morepersonally.
We also offer a great coursecalled building your resistance
against cancer that if you'dlike to be a part of that or
(37:26):
want more information about it,we'd love to send that to you,
and so you can message usprivately and we'll make sure
you get that information.
But thank you for joining usand join us next time for
another Sidewalk Conversation.
Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversations.
I'm so glad that you've joinedus.
I am thrilled to be able tointroduce my guest to you today.
I have known our guest for manyyears we were counting earlier,
I think it's like 45 some oddyears that I've known these
people and I am excited aboutletting you in on our
(00:21):
relationship as well.
But before I do, I just want tomake a little comment and set
up our conversation in this way.
Many of you who've beenfollowing the podcast know that
I have had a cancer diagnosisfor the last six years, and part
of the question I've beenasking in this period of time is
not only Lord, would you helpme get better, but how do you
(00:42):
want to redeem the journey?
So I had this sense very earlyon that there was a way in which
God would take this pastoralgifting and calling that he's
given me alongside my cancerdiagnosis and then provide
opportunities for me to servecancer families and the warriors
themselves who are workingthrough this often terrible and
frustrating disease workingthrough this often terrible and
(01:03):
frustrating disease.
And so when I had that kind ofrevelation, if you will, one of
the things that I determined wasthat I would use whatever
platforms I'm given to providehope and help for people who
find themselves in that sameposition.
So not all our programs arerevolving around cancer, but
today's is, and it is a story ofa person that has been an
(01:27):
inspiration to me, particularlyafter I got my own diagnosis,
because I remember looking backat her story and her journey and
finding a lot of hope and helpthere, and so I'm very excited
about introducing her to you,and I think you will appreciate
her story as much as I have.
(01:58):
As we start, I'd like to firstof all give a recognition to our
sponsor today.
I want to say thank you to mydaughter, who happens to be the
entrepreneur behind Amasuk.
Amasuk is a company thatsources ethically the handbags
and other works of artisans fromMexico, japan, morocco, and
(02:21):
she's opening up new lines allthe time, and so if you are now
even thinking about like, whatdo I need to get my wife or my
mom for Christmas, now's thetime to begin shopping, and you
can find some really great dealsand great handiwork on her site
that's amasukcom, where you canfind all kinds of handbags,
(02:43):
belts and other kinds ofaccessories that will serve you
well and for those you love.
So check that out.
Thank you, mallory, for yoursponsorship of this program.
I now want to turn my attentionto my dear friend, marsha Andre
.
Marsha Andre (02:57):
Thank you for joining me today.
I feel so honored to be herethat you invited me to share
this part of my life.
Piet Van Waarde (03:04):
I do think that you are probably the guest
that's traveled the furthest tobe on the podcast.
I kind of threw it out as anidea last time we were together,
I think on our trip to Floridawe get together with some old
friends and I kind of jokinglysaid hey, would you ever come do
my?
Oh yeah.
Marsha Andre (03:22):
I'll come and do it.
Of course we will.
Piet Van Waarde (03:23):
Come and do it.
Marsha Andre (03:24):
Yes, yes, I'm up for accepting any adventure
there might be ahead of me.
Piet Van Waarde (03:29):
Well, we met in college and your husband, who
we'll be introducing next week,was the best man at my wedding.
So we go way back and we'vebeen close friends ever since.
Marsha Andre (03:39):
And we kind of started dating at your wedding.
That was the day that we-.
Piet Van Waarde (03:43):
I did not know that.
Marsha Andre (03:44):
Yes, I remember the moment.
We were kind of-.
Piet Van Waarde (03:47):
You got starstruck, didn't you?
Marsha Andre (03:50):
There was a moment at your wedding that kind of
started our own journey together.
I love that Well.
Piet Van Waarde (03:56):
I'm going to have to ask him about that in
our podcast.
Marsha Andre (03:58):
All right, maybe you will.
Piet Van Waarde (04:01):
All right, all right, but I want to bring focus
to your own healing journey,which started way back not long
after we met each other incollege.
We had a small group togetherand we did some of our vacations
together.
And I still remember that onone of those vacation trips that
we did in California, there wasa moment, I think we were at a
(04:23):
restaurant or something, andyour husband touched your neck
and felt a lump.
Marsha Andre (04:28):
Felt a lump.
I was 22, 23, great shape,healthy.
Yeah, we had graduated fromcollege and had just journeyed
up to New England where wedidn't know anybody.
So we're grateful for ourgatherings of community, and it
(04:52):
was at that trip.
Yesterday found a lump.
Piet Van Waarde (04:55):
And then you got a diagnosis, not shortly
thereafter.
Marsha Andre (04:58):
We got back and quickly got in to a doctor who
said oh, you know, you've gotnon-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
Let's just do a little bit oftreatment here and off you go.
Oh, actually he thought it wasHodgkin's.
We ended up getting into one ofthe major hospitals in Boston,
at which point and of course Ithink we may all remember the
(05:20):
moments that we're told yeah um.
Life stands still and you'retold that, oh no, this is cancer
and this is not a good cancer,oh my gosh right, right, right
yet beginning of my life, thebeginning of my wide-eyed
anticipation of all that wasahead yeah and life stopped.
(05:41):
And every time we went, youknow, we were getting worse and
worse.
News that it was in the laststage of development, that there
was no cure, that, you know,there was not a lot of success
in terms of longevity.
And so at that moment, I'm 23and thinking this is the end.
Piet Van Waarde (06:09):
This is the end .
This is the end.
And then did you?
You?
Marsha Andre (06:10):
went into treatment right, Went into
treatment.
We were able to get intoexperimental treatment where
someone mentioned it's a shot ata cure, and at that the
language was cure rates, like wehave a two-year cure rate.
And so I remember, just in fearand trepidation, calling the
oncologist and saying you said,cure Like, do you think does
that mean cure?
Cure Like, really Like forevercure.
(06:33):
And he said yes, and I justremember, again, another life
stops.
And so again, this experimentaltreatment was a shot at trying
to give me a life.
Piet Van Waarde (06:44):
You know, Experimental treatment was a
shot at trying to give me a life.
Wow, you know small percentageof hope.
How long did the treatment last?
Marsha Andre (06:52):
before, you kind of felt like you were kind of in
the clear.
Well, one more part I shouldshare of that story is the next
time that we went in they saidoh, by the way, you won't be
able to have children.
So that was just almost.
It's a big deal, but almost anincidental view.
It's almost not as relevantwhen you're fighting for a shot
at life.
Yeah for sure.
But looking back again, it'sone of those things that changes
(07:13):
your life forever.
Yeah, but went into anexperimental bone marrow
transplant protocol where I knewthat they were going to.
Part of it was they're going totry to do everything they
possibly can, hit it with thebiggest sledgehammer they can.
They said you've stood a mileaway from Chernobyl, so we're
going to just hit it witheverything we got.
Wow, yeah, wow.
Piet Van Waarde (07:35):
But that was like a long time ago, and here
you are, here I am here, I am.
Marsha Andre (07:39):
You know.
There were churches at thattime that just committed to
24-hour prayer vigils for threemonths.
Piet Van Waarde (07:47):
Wow Because.
Marsha Andre (07:53):
I do think because I was 23,.
You know, it's such anout-of-season experience.
So I remember my thinking inthe beginning being all right,
you know, I'm going to take allthis energy and grit that I have
and I'm just going to, we'regoing to hit it, I'm going to
make it through, I'm just goingto push and I'm going to take
all this energy and grit that Ihave and we're going to hit it,
I'm going to make it through,I'm just going to push and I'm
going to survive.
Good for you.
Then they put the chemo in mybody and within 20 minutes of
(08:16):
what I knew was going to bereally intense chemo, within 20
minutes I could feel all thechemicals going through your
body and I'm like all my grit,all my will, I'm just surviving.
Wow, Because then we began justgetting sick Like every 20
(08:37):
minutes for day after day afterday, week after week.
So the treatment was brutal.
It was really brutal.
Piet Van Waarde (08:45):
And how long?
Marsha Andre (08:46):
was it?
Getting ready for thetransplant took maybe three
rounds of significant treatmentand then you get treatment and
then it's three weeks gettingyour body ready for the next
round and then the transplantitself was a month, four to five
weeks.
Because they're killing offeverything in your body that can
reproduce.
They're just wanting to reallykill everything that can be you
(09:10):
know, I don't know reproduce.
And then they're putting yournew.
You know they spun it out.
You know they're takingsomething out of your body, your
cells, and trying to get themcancer free so that when the
time comes they're going to putthem back in you and hope it
really pre-produces somethinghealthy.
Piet Van Waarde (09:29):
Yeah, and so how long was that?
From the time you got yourdiagnosis, you went through all
that.
Marsha Andre (09:33):
I think the diagnosis was June and I came
out Thanksgiving.
Piet Van Waarde (09:37):
All right.
Marsha Andre (09:38):
So six months of pretty intense, pretty intense
yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (09:41):
Right, and my guess is that, like given the
seriousness of your diagnosis,there's always that little fear
in the back of your mind,particularly early on, where
it's like did they get it all,Is it?
Marsha Andre (09:53):
going to come back .
How did you like move forwardafter they did all that I mean
like was it a part of yourthinking, when you have to face
what you believe is your deathand they're saying we're going
(10:15):
to give you a shot, but you know, statistically, all the odds
are probably not in your favor.
How do you move forward?
How do you live?
How do you anticipate a future?
I think for a long time I justwould not even let myself go and
imagine a life that might befive years out.
(10:36):
It felt too risky to me.
Piet Van Waarde (10:38):
I can imagine.
Marsha Andre (10:39):
So I think I just was living truly in the
day-to-day and just you know,you're in a survival mentality I
have today.
I'm getting through today.
Piet Van Waarde (10:48):
I can imagine so I'm just going to seize it,
wow, wow.
So I'm just going to seize it,wow, wow.
And so like did you, because Iknow you're also now a highly
sought after counselor.
You have a great practice andstuff.
Did you even give yourselfpermission to imagine that some
of that might be possible?
Marsha Andre (11:09):
It was because of this.
It was after I got through, andI should mention I don't know
if I said that my dad had beenwho was a deep, amazing man of
faith, had the same diagnosis.
I was 10 years old and Iwatched him suffer and die after
four years.
So I thought me who feels likeI couldn't, not me who feels
(11:32):
like I couldn't.
You know, he was a giant offaith.
Piet Van Waarde (11:38):
How am I?
How will I?
Marsha Andre (11:38):
make it through this.
It's hard for me to imagine, sothe whole faith part of it was
a little challenging.
Piet Van Waarde (11:47):
Let's talk about that.
Okay, you said you had somepeople praying.
Marsha Andre (11:52):
I did.
Piet Van Waarde (11:54):
More than just praying like doing visuals.
But how did your own faith playin to the healing process for
you?
Marsha Andre (12:01):
I would like to say that I was deeply holding on
to my faith through thisjourney.
I think sometimes the only wordI could get out was help, like
it was truly feeling, like therewas a torrent of water and I'm
holding on to a limb and I'mhoping just to survive,
(12:22):
whatever's happening in thatmoment it was yeah, they were
days of survival.
And then, looking back, youknow I have deep gratitude and
then, looking back, I have deepgratitude.
Thank you, god.
The river subsided, I'm on thelimb and I'm still here.
(12:42):
I'm so grateful.
So it's hard for me to think ayear out, even though I know I
don't know.
You live in the big, I don'tknow, and you have to manage the
uncertainty that we all have.
This just kind of gets you onthe fast course gets you on the
(13:03):
fast course of living with Idon't know, but God is truly.
My life is in your hands.
I've known that theoretically.
Piet Van Waarde (13:08):
I bet.
Marsha Andre (13:10):
Now I get it viscerally that I don't know,
and my life is in your hands Now.
Piet Van Waarde (13:15):
I get it viscerally that I don't know,
and my life is in your hands.
Marsha Andre (13:21):
There is such a difference between being able to
articulate a theological truthand live it right.
That, more than anything else,is you know, you know, you know
cognitively, all the truths thatyou believe you've built your
life on, all the truths that youbelieve you've built your life
on.
And then, in a moment when itstarts happening, and you're you
know, when the shock and thedespair and the my life is now
(13:42):
over, it's just you get adifferent, you just get a
different.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (13:51):
Yeah, I've told this story before, but you know
, as you're describing it, Iremember that after my surgery,
so they had to take my kidney,my prostate, some lymph nodes,
and I was at Mayo Clinic and itwas one of those nights where I
couldn't sleep.
I was in so much pain and I wasalso questioning my future,
like is this really it.
(14:12):
Is it over?
Am I over?
Is it like?
Am I going to make it?
And I still remember like Ilooked at the clock on the wall
and I thought I had survived forfive, 10, 15 minutes and it was
like a minute, you know.
And you're just like like, Ilove that image of holding on
because that's really what it is.
(14:33):
It is.
You're just like okay, I'mgoing to hold on for another
minute and.
God, I hope you'll meet me inthis minute.
Right, and then all of a suddenit turns into the two, three,
five minutes and you wake up inthe morning and you're still
there, yeah, and there is supergratitude and joy.
(14:54):
Okay, I made it through thenight I made it.
Marsha Andre (14:57):
I made it through another night.
Piet Van Waarde (14:59):
Right, okay.
So then you start gettingbetter, you start feeling better
, and then you decide okay, well, I guess I'm going to be here
yet for a while.
Marsha Andre (15:11):
I'll take the time I have.
Yes, what am I going to do withit?
Right, it kind of matters now,because I don't know how much
there is.
Piet Van Waarde (15:18):
So what led you into counseling?
Is that something that was likebirthed in you a long time ago?
Marsha Andre (15:23):
No, I had no thought of it.
It was never a thought in mymind.
I'm working at a company, Ihave business undergrad and when
I graduated and when I got outof my transplant, I thought,
okay, what am I going to do withmy life that feels meaningful
and has purpose?
I don't know if I want to goback and improve the bottom line
of a company.
Don't know if that's what Iwant to do with this time.
(15:45):
So I started looking throughthe classified section of the
newspaper and thought what grabsme, what feels meaningful?
And then I found out about thisMSW degree.
I didn't know what it was andthought I'm going to go back to
grad school and see if I cancultivate some skills to kind of
(16:08):
show up for other people whoare walking through the
unimaginable, who are walkingthrough pain.
I feel like that's my life.
Now I get it and I just want togo alongside of people who are
doing that.
Piet Van Waarde (16:21):
So would you say that you're like it sounds
like your diagnosis definitelyprovided the pivot?
Marsha Andre (16:27):
It did.
It was the pivot Incentive forthe pivot.
Piet Van Waarde (16:31):
Would you say that your diagnosis also
affected how you entered thepractice, like how you started
counseling, how you startedthinking about helping people?
Marsha Andre (16:41):
It did.
It does affect it because Iremember applying for my first
job and I'm young to enter intoa private practice or a
counseling practice and I justthought, oh my gosh, I'm too
young to do this.
But I remember them saying youknow, there is a sense about you
.
We feel like you've gone,you've had some just tough
(17:05):
things you've walked through.
You know, we sense somethingdifferent, some maturity about
you, and it was my cancer and itwas my cancer.
It was the transformation thathappens to you when you face the
dark night of your soul, whenyou face death and have to come
back, so that I think it lent alevel of their belief that I
(17:26):
could show up and maybe withother people who are struggling,
in a way that would create somecredibility.
Piet Van Waarde (17:32):
Yeah, I wonder if you had the same experience
Like I think one of the things Inoticed in terms of the work I
do now is that not only do youmaybe have some perspective
that's helpful, but you alsohave a pretty clear idea of
what's not helpful.
Right, right, Do you have thatsense in your practice?
Yeah, I have some stories aboutthat.
Marsha Andre (17:53):
You know, because again we read all the things,
all the things how not to showup for someone who's just had a
trauma?
Or tragedy, but I certainlyheard it.
I mean, I remember rightafterwards, like right
afterwards, someone cornering meand saying you know, what sin
have you committed?
You know, like literally, likewhat do you need to confess
(18:14):
Because you know God has visitedthis on you for a certain
reason?
Piet Van Waarde (18:18):
And.
Marsha Andre (18:18):
I remember my husband stood in front of me and
took that on and I'm like youknow, because I'm still in shock
and trauma over the diagnosisand you know, it's just.
You know the constant.
Sometimes we don't know how tobe there for people.
So I think, okay, I'm going togo to school, I'm going to
(18:40):
figure out how to show up forpeople in a way that hopefully
allows them to feel heard.
Piet Van Waarde (18:48):
Yeah, and helped, and helped, and helped,
right, right, don't make itworse.
Right, because it is a lonelyFirst.
Do not harm.
Marsha Andre (18:56):
And there's a loneliness that comes from this,
Because no one can be in themiddle of the night with you
feeling what you feel.
There's no words to describe it.
Right?
You know the kind of real deeppain of I don't know if I can
survive it another minutebecause it feels too much.
(19:16):
And do I want to keep going ifthis is what I'm feeling?
Piet Van Waarde (19:19):
Right.
Marsha Andre (19:19):
And there's an isolation and a loneliness that
come from that place.
So you know, I think if there'sany way of being present to
someone as they're able to eventouch just a bit of that, yeah,
I think that can be a little bitof relief.
Piet Van Waarde (19:38):
Well, and just giving them words for it right.
So I think sometimes certainlytrue for me the emotions become
so overwhelming that you don'teven know how to describe it.
But then if you hear somebodyelse talk, about it.
You're like oh yeah, that'swhat I felt.
And then when you put words totalk about it and you're like,
oh yeah, that's what I felt,that.
And then when you put words toit, it actually gives you an
(19:58):
opportunity to kind of accessresources that address that need
and just kind of gives part thehealing process right, it's
true it's true.
So, um, as you look back on yourcancer experience I I know that
this, as people have asked methis question, it's kind of hard
time, you know, kind ofsummarizing it, but I'm going to
let you feel the same pain Ifelt um, what?
(20:19):
What are some of the thingsthat you feel like have shaped
your life as a result of thecancer experience, like how were
you different?
How are you like?
What are some of the?
Marsha Andre (20:29):
lessons, if you will that you learned from all
that?
I would not wish this path onanyone.
But if you're on this path youdo get a little superpower, you
get a little unique gift andthat is the gift of and I know
(20:49):
it's cliche, but it's true thatlife feels different, Life is
different, the brevity of lifebecomes more real yeah the this
moment matters.
That's why you said, hey, doyou want to come?
And I'm like, of course I'mgonna come you know, yes,
becomes a word yes is a way thatyou I mean, why would I say no?
(21:09):
because I, I'm gonna take it all, I'm gonna take it all, I'm
going to take it, I'm going totake life for what I can I love
it.
I'm going to face down whateverI need to face down and embrace
it, whether it's relationships,whether it's experiences, I
want it.
Piet Van Waarde (21:26):
I have heard so many people use some of those
exact same words.
They'll start by saying I wouldnot wish this on anybody.
Marsha Andre (21:33):
Okay, all right, all right words.
Piet Van Waarde (21:34):
They'll start by saying I would not wish this
on anybody and at the same time,there is a gift that I've been
given that I would not have beengiven without the diagnosis,
which sounds like crazy.
Marsha Andre (21:45):
It does sound crazy.
Piet Van Waarde (21:47):
But I totally get it too.
There is something that happensin your soul and there's things
that you know.
We learn things different ways.
So we can read something or wecan watch something.
We say, like by observation orby engaging certain material
resources we learn.
But there's a whole differentkind of learning that happens
(22:07):
when you walk through anexperience, especially when it
regards lots of suffering.
It does you discover you hadthings you didn't think you had
and that your faith really willhold up in the midst of it Not
to say you don't have any doubtsduring it, but, like you said,
in retrospect you can say youknow what it really did carry me
(22:29):
through those prayers reallydid make a difference Absolutely
.
And holding on to the promisesthat I understood from the
scriptures, that they do.
They are a firm foundationright, yes, so yeah.
Marsha Andre (22:42):
Though I walk through the valley of the shadow
of death.
Piet Van Waarde (22:44):
I will fear.
Marsha Andre (22:44):
no evil has a different meaning.
Piet Van Waarde (22:46):
Yeah.
Marsha Andre (22:46):
Yeah, it just has a different meaning.
Yeah, and again in my work withmy clients who are all there
from deep trauma, hurt, you knowfor one, I know we all have a
story.
Piet Van Waarde (22:56):
Yeah.
Marsha Andre (22:56):
You know, most people have a story that isn't
always shared.
And when people have a chanceto share their story and when
people find healing, I've alwayssensed even if I go amongst out
in the community in my lifepeople who had deep suffering
and who have recovered well,meaning they haven't gone to
(23:17):
bitterness and despair butthey've just found their way
through.
You can sense it in people.
You know they're beautifulpeople who have suffered and
found a way to get back to hopeand to life and to living.
Piet Van Waarde (23:33):
Yeah, so found a way to get back to hope and to
life and to living?
Yeah, so I want to touch onsome subjects that are like more
specific, as it relates to notjust cancer but just like living
life.
But maybe with cancer it has alike they are more in the
forefront.
So I think one of the thingsI've noticed is that fear is a
(23:56):
regular part of life, you know.
Fear of will it come back, fearof what you know.
What would I go through if youknow I pass prematurely?
What's going to happen with mykids, my husband, you know my
family, so it's present.
It's like you don't invite it,it just it's just there, and so
(24:18):
we have to have ways of ofnavigating it and processing it,
and I'm just curious, and youcan answer this like either way
or maybe both like what do youdo yourself, because I'm sure
even now you know you like itcould come back, and then, and
then also maybe how you helpothers.
What are some strategies forprocessing fear?
Marsha Andre (24:42):
For one, I would certainly just validate the
power of it, um, and howunwelcome it is and how, in a
moment, it can just show up andgrip, and just grip your soul.
It feels like a death grip andthat's hard, you know how.
When that happens, what do youdo?
And there's lots of things wecould that are kind of
(25:02):
cliche-ish, you know.
Just trust God and you know,move on, or you know all those
different things, and I wouldsay my fear in particular it was
, it felt like it was right infront of me all the time as life
has gone on and you go aboutliving, it somehow seems to move
itself to the side, you know,so it's in my peripheral view.
Piet Van Waarde (25:27):
And do you think that's like on purpose,
like do you feel like if you cangive yourself permission to
think about life, it will bynatural?
Marsha Andre (25:36):
like'm like fueling the fire of it.
My whole body doesn't know.
I'm just imagining, you know,my whole body is reacting as if
(25:58):
it's true, and then I can'tsettle it down.
It's like almost running hot.
Um so, rather than tell myself,don't think about it, which is
yeah that's not happening I Ijust find if I really am
intentional about what I dothink about if.
I go about living life fully.
(26:18):
It just seems to just take alittle bit of.
It just seems to go into theback burner a little bit, yeah
yeah.
A little bit, yeah yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (26:29):
And you know, you hear people talk about and
we've had conversations in othersettings about this.
But you know, there areprinciples, there's scriptures
that people kind of come back toas like I'm going to hold on to
this.
I'm going to hang on to thispromise you know.
(26:49):
These are the things I repeatto myself.
Did you have anything like thatthat served you well in terms
of navigating?
Marsha Andre (26:53):
the fear equation.
Well, my life verse is relevantin this, which is trust in the
Lord with all your heart, leannot on your own understanding,
and all your ways acknowledgehim.
So I just felt like that's myprayer of surrender.
Like you know, the other thingthat I held to deeply was the
(27:15):
story of Daniel.
You know, I really reallyrelated to getting thrown into
the fiery furnace and I thoughtI don't know if I'm going to
come out.
I might get burned alive, whichkind of feels like it.
But if he saves me, he'll saveme and I had to.
I mean, that's an easy thing tosay, but it's a constant
(27:39):
decision to go your way, notmine.
You know your way, not mine.
I'm trusting you with whateverI have and whatever shows up.
And again, I was told I was outof remission multiple times.
So I've had practice of onemore time.
And then again there'simplications.
When you've had as much chemoand radiation as I've had, I've
(28:03):
got damage to my lungs, I've gotsome heart issues.
But then again I get practiceright.
I've had 40 years of practice.
I'm going okay.
One more round of uncertainty,you know we have children.
One more round, lots of roundsof uncertainty.
And how do I want to live?
You know that becomes myquestion is I don't have any
(28:26):
control over what's going toland on my lap.
I don't have any say over whathappens.
What shows up tomorrow, thephone call I might get this
afternoon.
All I can do is decide how Iwant to live through it, how I
want to walk through that doorand remind myself over and over
again, grab the hands of mypeople, my friends and family,
(28:48):
and trust that, whatever it is,I'm going to hold on tight and
let happen whatever happens.
Piet Van Waarde (28:59):
I love how you mentioned that, because it's
been something that I've beenkind of pondering a lot myself
lately, that this power ofchoice is so real.
Power of choice is so real,like sometimes you know you're
driven by things whether it's,you know, emotion or tapes
playing in the back of your mindabout who you are or what you
(29:21):
can't do and you know thosethings really do have influence.
But at the end of the day, likeyou said, we get a choice about
like am.
I going to allow those messages, those fears those anxieties to
determine my behaviors and mychoices?
Or am I going to say you know,what?
Yeah, all of that might be true, all of that may have impact,
(29:45):
but that's not where I'm going.
Marsha Andre (29:47):
It's not what I'm going to do.
And you hear the energy of yourvoice.
Yeah, it almost takes a footstomping.
Like no, like no, yes, I'm notgiving it.
I refuse to let my life go thatway.
Piet Van Waarde (30:01):
Yeah, I'm reminded of Peter.
He had that moment with Jesuswhere Jesus is speaking to the
crowd and he's saying somereally hard things and people
start peeling off right andthey're going in different
directions.
And Jesus is watching that andhe turns to the disciples and he
(30:21):
says so are you guys going toleave too?
And I like to imagine thatpicture in my mind where Peter
is thinking about it.
He's like you know what?
You're saying some stuff thatI'm not sure I can live with.
And then it's almost as thoughI can imagine him in his mind's
eye saying yeah, but where am Igoing to go?
(30:44):
Like who has the words of?
Marsha Andre (30:46):
life.
What's my option?
Piet Van Waarde (30:48):
And then he chooses.
He's just like you know whatOther people may leave.
Other people may do otherthings, but you know what?
This is where I'm going to putmy trust.
This is where I'm going to land.
Marsha Andre (31:00):
Yeah, yes, You've got the words life.
Piet Van Waarde (31:03):
Yes, not doing anything else.
Thank you for my mini-surgery.
Not an easy decision, no, no.
Marsha Andre (31:10):
It's so powerful because it's not that it's easy,
it's not that you even thinkyou have the capacity.
Piet Van Waarde (31:16):
Yeah.
Marsha Andre (31:20):
I'd say we don't have the capacity If we all knew
what was ahead of us.
How many of us would just sayno, but it is the.
Peter made a decision in thatmoment.
He was sober-minded and said,okay, I'll take the next step.
Yeah, I'll take the next step.
Yeah, I don't think he knew itwas like.
I don't think he knew it wasahead of him.
Piet Van Waarde (31:37):
You know Well, he may have even known that,
like, if this is, this is whathe's talking about now it's
probably going to get harder.
Marsha Andre (31:44):
It's going to get harder, right, right.
Piet Van Waarde (31:47):
All right.
One last question about pain,because people who are in
treatment and then people whoyou know for a number of other
reasons, health concerns or evenemotional and even past pains
and hurts have to process deeplevels of pain.
And when you're hurting likeyou just want to cash it all in.
(32:13):
You just want to say like justlet it be over, you know, or
give me something that will likenumb it all out.
What are you like both?
What did you do?
What do you do?
Marsha Andre (32:30):
How do you help other people navigate pain, the
problem of pain?
Question a question for alltime, really, really, because I
think it's our human nature,just our nature, to just run,
yeah, or?
Numb out yeah, whatever ittakes to not have to walk
(32:51):
through the fire, mm-hmm.
And if I thought any of thosemethods were the shortcut, I'd
take them.
You know, if I thought therewas another way through except
through, I'd probably find itMm-hmm, but there isn't, and I
don't know if there's any easyanswer for that.
Piet Van Waarde (33:12):
Yeah, you know, come on, counselor I isn't and
I don't know if there's any easyanswer for that, you know.
Marsha Andre (33:21):
I don't, I don't.
I've certainly heard that in myoffice.
Isn't there another way?
You know, do I have to be inthe life that I have right now,
facing down the things that Ihave to face down, you know,
whether it's losing a child,whether it's getting a diagnosis
, whether someone just walkedout after 50 years, whatever it
is, you know, isn't there anyway to not feel this?
And I just, I believe in thepower of grief and I think if we
don't grieve, it comes outsideways.
(33:42):
It ends up hurting those welove most.
And so that's why, if griefshows up, if panic or pain show
up, I don't want to focus on it,but I often say I'm going to
put my hands right here on myheart and just offer my own self
compassion and kindness, notjudgment, but just to be present
(34:07):
, however I can, and say Godhelp.
However I can and say God helpand just know that eventually
that deep, severe pain will comeand it will go.
It's almost like standing thereand the waves of the ocean are
going to crash over you andyou're not sure you're going to
stand and survive it.
You can feel your feet kind ofsinking down into the wet sand,
(34:28):
but it's stand and stand andthen no, and just no, no, no,
it's going to come, it's goingto go, and you're just saying
God help me in this moment.
Face down what's right here inmy life and help me have the
courage to be here, just to behere with it.
Piet Van Waarde (34:43):
You know, I appreciate you saying that,
because sometimes people willlook at you, know somebody like
yourself and you know you'vegone through so much, you're so
strong, and then the messagemight be like I got to be strong
like that, I got to like stiffupper lip it, but to be able to
acknowledge that it's okay tocry out for help.
(35:06):
You know like I am not strongenough for this.
Lord Right, this is too much.
It is too much.
You know help, I am not strongenough for this.
Lord Right, this is too much.
It is too much Help me.
Marsha Andre (35:15):
It is Meet me.
Piet Van Waarde (35:17):
And that like desperate cry there's like and I
don't think it's justpsychological, but I think
there's something reallypowerful from a spiritual
perspective to like just let itall out and say I need your
intervention.
Marsha Andre (35:30):
Lord, Absolutely I need your help.
Piet Van Waarde (35:32):
Please meet me in this moment, Right right and
it's not, like you said, themagic formula.
So now it's no longer hard, butit's like somehow even those
words become like prayers andthey give you some measure of
relief in the middle of the pain.
Marsha Andre (35:50):
It's true, it's like find the nearest hand of
someone you love and hold ittight.
I remember during one of my Idon't know, it was like a spinal
tap kind of thing bone marrowbiopsy.
Anyway, it was bad, and I justhad a nurse and I think I might
have broken some hands, I mighthave broken her fingers, broken
(36:13):
her fingers because that's aliteral that.
You know the literal pain of it.
I just found myselfinstinctively just grabbing so
hard.
But I'm just how great, oh mygosh.
I just told her afterwards thankgod for you yeah, yeah because
that human contact from someoneI didn't even know helped me get
through it love it.
Piet Van Waarde (36:30):
Yeah, wellha, thank you so much for your
vulnerability.
It's so good to see you.
Thank you for making the tripout here, Absolutely so grateful
for your story and for yourkindness and our friendship over
the years.
Absolutely.
Marsha Andre (36:43):
I cheer on all those that are going through
hard times.
You know whether it's cancer orother things.
You know we're talking aboutthe universality of pain, the
unknown, and what that means tobe human, what it means to not
be strong, what it means to grabonto a hand and pray to God for
help.
Yeah, yeah, so glad to be here,Thank you.
Piet Van Waarde (37:06):
And thank you for joining us for another
Sidewalk Conversation.
I hope that you found some helpand encouragement from the
things that we shared.
As always, you are free toreach out if there's a way that
we can be of help morepersonally.
We also offer a great coursecalled building your resistance
against cancer that if you'dlike to be a part of that or
(37:26):
want more information about it,we'd love to send that to you,
and so you can message usprivately and we'll make sure
you get that information.
But thank you for joining usand join us next time for
another Sidewalk Conversation.
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