September 11, 2025 • 43 mins
Exploring why our understanding of God is the most important thought process believers must embrace, this conversation delves into how theology shapes our entire Christian journey.
• Everybody already has a theology—the question is whether it's biblical
• Theology is like a map that helps you from getting lost, but isn't the actual journey itself
• Understanding the Bible as a whole provides the best defense against theological error
• The primary place to start theological exploration is reading Scripture from front to back
• Jesus performed the same miracles seen in the Old Testament to demonstrate His divinity
• Politics has unfortunately influenced theology rather than theology influencing politics
• As Christians mature, they often become more comfortable with theological mystery
• Learning to hear from Jesus and the Holy Spirit directly through Scripture study is essential
• Theological humility is crucial—the most important question is whether someone knows Jesus
• Recommended resources include C.S. Lewis, Michael Heiser, and Tim Mackey of The Bible Project
Join us at Shoreline Church on Sundays at 10am for Art's "Firm Foundations" class, where he provides practical tools for reading and understanding your Bible.
Support for this show comes from the Van Waarde Foundation. You can donate today on Patreon.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waarde (00:01):
Hello and welcome to another Sidewalk
Conversation.
So glad that you're here.
In fact, I want to start with aquestion, and I hope that
you'll take a moment to considerit, and the question is this
what do you think is the mostimportant thought process that a
believer must embrace?
Now, my guess is that some ofyou might say well, that's easy,
(00:23):
you know, I need to be thinkingabout love, or I need to be
thinking about faithfulness orservice, and as important as all
those things are, I want toargue for a slightly different
point of view.
And that is that the primary ormost important thought process
we need to consider is ourunderstanding about the nature
(00:45):
of God.
That's where it all starts.
Then everything else flows fromthat.
Now, a lot of times when Imention the word theology,
people kind of imagine somethingvery dry and boring and dusty,
that's basically reserved fortheologians and seminary
professors and not reallysomething that rank and file
(01:07):
believers need to be thinkingabout.
But if you think about it, itreally is one of the most
important dimensions of ourfaith.
In fact, everything flows outof our theology.
In fact, one of the thingswe're going to talk about today
is that everybody already has atheology.
Like, if you think about it,when you start imagining how
(01:29):
you're going to processsuffering or how you're going to
deal with temptation or how yourelate to the world around you,
all of those things are aproduct of your theology.
In fact, aw Tozer said famouslythe thing that comes to mind
when we think about God is themost important thing about us,
(01:50):
and so what we're going to do inour podcast today is we're
going to kind of unwrap that andtalk a little bit about why
it's so important to have arobust biblical theology, that
it doesn't have to be a boringjourney.
In fact, to take theologyseriously is part of what makes
our Christian journey anadventure, and I am excited
(02:11):
about the person that I havehere today who's going to help
us navigate this conversationour local kind of preeminent
theologian that I'm bringingback from season one, and I
can't wait to introduce them toyou again Today.
(02:38):
I want to say a special thanksto the Van Ward Foundation.
This is supported by ourPatreon members, so we have a
group of people who understandand value what we're doing in
this ministry that has variouspoints of view and various
channels that we produce.
So we have a newsletter, wehave a podcast, we have pocket
(03:01):
prayers, we have variousproductions from my authoring,
and so all of that is supportedthrough the Van Ward Foundation
and that is supported throughPatreon members, and you can
find all of that if you'reinterested in being a part at
Patreon, at Pete Van Ward, andyou can become a monthly
subscriber.
(03:21):
You can become a supporter as aone-time gift, but all of those
resources fund the variousinitiatives that we have going
on through the Van WardFoundation and if you're already
a part, thank you for doing so.
All right, well, let's turn ourattention to the guest today,
my good friend Art Powell.
Art Powell (03:42):
Thank you.
I'm surprised you had me backafter the first one, but thank
you.
Piet Van Waarde (03:46):
Yeah, so we had you all the way back in season
one.
Thank you for making a returnvisit.
Art Powell (03:51):
Really appreciate it .
Yeah, glad to be back.
Piet Van Waarde (03:53):
So that's been a couple of years, so why don't?
You just like start with givingus a little update on what
you've been doing, where you'vebeen kind of focusing your
attention.
Art Powell (04:01):
Yeah, the last couple of years have been
interesting, so I am also.
I have a day job, so I'm the.
Ceo of a company I founded 20years ago this year Wow,
congratulations, 20 years Ithink yes Anyway, so I do love
it.
I mean, it can be a challengeat times, but I do love it.
Piet Van Waarde (04:18):
And what kind of company is it for those who-.
Art Powell (04:21):
Yeah, it's just a technology services company, so
we've got about 30 employees,between 30 and 35 employees, and
it presents me the day-to-daychallenges.
But I do love it because Ithink it's important to live out
one's theology and this givesme an opportunity to do that and
all the challenges, to be inthe middle of situations.
(04:41):
And I want to let out a stringof expletives sometimes I can't
do it.
I'm like no, what would Jesusdo?
Okay, no, you can't do that.
Uh, but so it is good.
It keeps me healthy and keepsme in check.
Uh, wife and I are doingextremely well.
We just hit 34 years ofmarriage been there for 38 years
.
Yes, she was Hispanic.
(05:02):
I still have on my limbs so Ido consider that an
accomplishment.
Piet Van Waarde (05:05):
So she hopefully she's not watching
this.
Yeah, yeah, she will be butthat's okay, she's a.
Art Powell (05:15):
she's a sweetheart.
Most of the time she's asweetheart.
I love her, um, and I can'timagine being without her.
And uh, uh, I did.
I was able to reconcile with myson fully.
So there was that was.
Piet Van Waarde (05:22):
There was something, yeah, that was a real
gift.
Art Powell (05:24):
Uh, and we've, and, uh, I did have a health scare.
Um, I had, uh, I had a defib.
Uh, you know where you, yourheart is beating out of sync.
And about the, they say it'sthe closest thing to having a
heart attack without having aheart attack.
Okay, and then, immediatelyafter I went for my checkup and
my doc was like you know what hegoes.
You have two choices here youneed to get your health in shape
(05:47):
or you're going on medicine.
My cholesterol I don't mindsharing, it was like 198.
I was, I was, I was apre-diabetic and I'm very happy
to report in three and a halfmonths I lost 36 pounds, I
dropped my cholesterol a hundredpoints and I'm no longer
pre-diabetic.
In fact, he was so impressed hewas like you can just see me in
May and I was, so I'm going tokeep it up.
Piet Van Waarde (06:09):
I feel a lot better.
Art Powell (06:10):
So you know, and seeing you go through your, your
health stuff, it was just youreally inspired me that I could
do it.
Piet Van Waarde (06:16):
I really didn't have any excuses.
Art Powell (06:18):
I needed to stop shoving all that food in my
mouth that I didn't need.
So, yeah, so that's been good.
So you know, I've also acquireda bit of a following on Twitter
theologically on my theologicalTwitter and enjoying that.
Piet Van Waarde (06:32):
What's the handle?
Art Powell (06:33):
It's Saved by J, s-a-v-e-b-y-j Saved by Jesus,
and I've been enjoying that,still teaching firm foundations
at Shoreline.
And so yeah, just the last twoyears.
Piet Van Waarde (06:44):
Yeah, firm foundations at Shoreline, and so
yeah, just the last two years.
Yeah, because theology is notjust like a little side interest
for you.
Art Powell (06:50):
No, no, yeah, dr Dickey said it best, I think, at
our church.
He said he goes, art, you gotborn again.
You just kept digging.
And I've been digging for over30 years and I went into
apologetics, and part of it waswhen I got born again.
I was agnostic, atheist, and somy heart and mind weren't
synced, and so I went intoagnostics, which was the next
(07:13):
natural step, and then I justkept going and then I taught
Christian philosophyprofessionally to Christian kids
.
That was interesting, I couldtell you some horror stories
there, and then I went into andthen I started teaching you some
horror stories there, and thenI started teaching men theology
at Shoreline and now I teach thechurch to men and women, I
teach the staff and I really,really enjoy it.
(07:34):
Yeah, you're right, it's apassion of mine and if I ever do
retire from work then there'llprobably be a full-time passion.
I love it.
Piet Van Waarde (07:44):
So I think one of the and I kind of mentioned
this in the introduction I thinkone of the things that becomes
an intimidating factor forbelievers is they kind of get
scared off even by the word liketheology.
I don't know, can I reallyreally understand this stuff?
So let me just start with, likewhat would be your pitch for
(08:09):
why theology should matter forthe quote, unquote rank and file
Christian.
Art Powell (08:13):
Yeah, and that's a great question.
And I, first of all, I am not.
I do not have a degree, so thatI always tell people that, so
they have, they can hopefullyfeel a little less threatened.
Like I don't have a PhD or amaster's or even a degree in
theology and it's something Iself-taught.
But I do think theology isimportant.
I like CS Lewis's analogy.
(08:35):
He said that it's like a map,right, and maps are important.
They help you from getting lost, they help you from you know
you don't want to, from gettingout of bounds, so you can't
discard a map.
Now the reverse is true.
The map is not the actual trip,right, and so you can't, really
you can't, you can't separatethe two.
(08:57):
And I see a lot of people tryingto separate the two.
They were like, oh, we justfollow Jesus.
Well, jesus had theology, hadtheology in the New Testament,
right.
And then there's the.
You know we don't need all thattheological stuff, we can just
follow Jesus.
Well, no, that doesn't cut it.
And then you know, because Jesussays a lot of things, that if
you don't have some basicunderstanding of the Old
Testament, you will miss it, andsome very important things.
(09:19):
The other side of the fence is.
You have these and I don't wantto offend anybody, so I'm not
saying they're all like this butyou have these really stuffy
PhDs who are like well, you mustbelieve in this doctrine, you
must believe in that doctrine.
And Jesus went after some ofthose and he said you search the
scriptures for life, so youwon't come to me, right, but you
won't come to me.
And so I think it's veryimportant that we can't separate
(09:41):
the two, right.
So the gospel is truth thatneeds to be experienced, and
it's also an experience in truth.
So the truth, the theology, iswhat helps us stay on the map
and not go off into the farm andget weird, and so you can't
ignore theology.
It's important.
Piet Van Waarde (10:01):
All right.
So I love the way you describedthat, and CS Lewis is one of my
faves as well and so let's say,somebody said all right, I've
come to a conclusion that I needthis.
I need to give attention tothis in my daily life.
Where would you encouragepeople to begin?
Art Powell (10:22):
Yeah, and what I'm going to tell you is probably
not the expected answer, but Iwould say begin, read the Bible
from front to back, because Ithink one of the even I see this
, unfortunately, even with veryhighly educated people is that
you can miss certain things ifyou don't have an overarching
(10:43):
view of the Bible.
There are people who try todisassociate the God of the Old
Testament from Jesus and youcan't do that and they're like,
well, he's violent.
I was like, yeah, becausethat's kind of like why the
gospel is good news right.
Because I've met both.
(11:04):
And the way I got saved is Imet the God of the Old Testament
first, and then I met Jesus.
And let me tell you like, whenI read the Old Testament for the
first time, I had no troublebelieving who that God, like
that God was real, because I'dmet him.
He's a holy, righteous God whodemands holiness and
righteousness.
But you know, and then I got tomeet the love of Jesus and the
(11:29):
grace of Jesus.
Right, so he's both.
You can't separate the two.
Piet Van Waarde (11:33):
I love how you said that.
I just want to hit anexclamation point there, because
you can't fully appreciategrace in the gospel without that
understanding of the law andwhat his nature is as a core as
well.
So he's not just grace, he istruth.
Art Powell (11:50):
Yeah, jesus didn't say, oh, I came and removed the
law.
He said I did not come toremove the law, I came to
fulfill it.
And unless you really graspwhat that means, what he's
saying is, paul says the law wasput there to reveal our sin.
It wasn't there.
It was there to show us our sin.
(12:11):
It wasn't to the law, neverperfected anybody.
And if you don't understand that, then you sometimes will walk
into Christianity thinking, oh,you know, be good, do better, be
good, be better right.
No, that's not whatChristianity is.
Christianity is you could neverbe good Like on your best day.
You're not good Like if youdon't get born again.
If you don't allow Jesus to dosomething inside of you, you
cannot be good.
(12:32):
And so I think it's veryimportant.
That's why theology is soimportant.
But that's why it's soimportant to read the Bible as a
whole, and you can't takepieces out of it.
And I think one of the bestdefenses against bad theology is
understanding the Bible as awhole, from front to back.
You don't have to go to theextreme I've gone to, but I read
the Bible front to back everyyear.
I've been doing that for 20plus years, maybe a little
(12:54):
longer, and so the more you dothat and I recommend everybody
do it at least once or twice.
And I recommend everybody do itat least once or twice because
you see this arc that you willnever unsee again, and then you
begin to understand some thingsthat make more sense, like when
(13:21):
Jesus taught.
Because, like most people don'trealize, like all the literally
every miracle that Jesus did wasalready had been done in the
Old Testament, he's doing themagain to show like, hey, I'm the
guy who did those miracles inthe Old Testament.
Right, and you'll miss that ifyou don't.
You know, a lot of people actlike the miracles of Jesus were
new.
They weren't.
They were in the Bible, theywere just less frequent and
spread over a long.
You know, eons as opposed to.
But Jesus is saying, hey, I'mthe guy who did those miracles,
(13:45):
see, because I'm proving it.
And that's what he meant whenhe said believe in me because of
the miracles I perform.
Now in the Western culture wethink, oh, yeah, he's doing some
pretty crazy stuff, so he mustbe God.
But what he's telling hisJewish audience, which was his
primary audience in thebeginning, is believe in me
because I'm doing the samemiracles that God did in the Old
(14:05):
Testament.
Piet Van Waarde (14:06):
Which they were obviously very familiar with.
Art Powell (14:08):
They were very familiar with.
And so having this gives adeeper understanding, and this
is why you can't.
This is why I think the veryprimary thing is to understand
where you, to understand theBible as a whole.
One of the things I've learnedover the years because when I
teach people to read the Biblefor themselves, I get a lot of
criticism, particularly online,where people say, well, that's
(14:28):
dangerous.
And I'm like, not really.
Because, first of all, jesussaid call no man your teacher, I
will teach you.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit wantto teach us scripture.
But the second thing is mypersonal experience has been
over the years is when I hearsomebody say something that's
like off and left field, youknow, way off the ranch, just
(14:49):
crazy.
You know what?
The first thing I ask them isit's not.
Where is that in the Bible?
Because I know they didn't getit from the Bible.
The very first thing I askedthem is who told you that?
And so if you know your Bibleyou're not you're going to be
much more resistant to thesepeople who are saying some
really weird things, because youwill know like this doesn't
(15:10):
align with what the Bible says.
And so I say start withbiblical knowledge.
Piet Van Waarde (15:13):
I love that perspective.
I had a seminary professor whokind of said it this way.
He said when you learn aboutscripture and theology, it's not
necessarily going to make you agreat Christian, but it will
probably keep you from being abad heretic.
That is really good.
Art Powell (15:31):
And it also keeps you from error right.
Error is important.
So, and that's we use heretictoo much outside the church
anyway, because it's defined inthe Bible, it's simply as
someone who does not believethat Jesus was God in the flesh.
Right, but more importantly, itkeeps from error, and that's
the key right.
Because people say, well, youjust need to love your neighbor
(15:52):
as yourself.
Well, no, that's not what Jesussaid.
Jesus said love God and thenlove your neighbor.
The two are linked.
You can't unlink them, right?
And so it's these little thingsthat when you know, I love it.
When people tell me, they'realways like oh well, if I met
the Jesus of the Bible, you knowI like him.
I don't like the Christians.
I'm like well, you just told meyou don't know the Jesus of the
(16:12):
Bible, because if you reallyread what he said he would have,
he's going to offend youmultiple times.
He still offends me to this day.
He called a woman a dog.
I'm still dealing with that.
So this is why it's importantthat we know the Bible ourselves
, because that is the best of it.
And I'm not saying you don'tlisten to other people, and I'm
not saying you don't listen to,but even they can make Even.
(16:35):
You know, I've gone back andI've been revisiting the fathers
of the faith, the ones who cameright after the apostles, and
you know, even they can get alittle flaky sometimes.
Right, it's important that weknow the word of God.
Piet Van Waarde (16:48):
So when a person thinks about theology, I
think one of the things is and Ilove your suggestion to start
with scripture, because we'verelated a long time I've noticed
how you continue to come backto your chronological Bible
every year and all of that,which I respect a ton.
(17:13):
And in addition to that, arethere some things that you say
like are a priority, theologicalpoints, like where you say you
really like, if you're going to,of all the things you could be
learning and thinking about,these are the like A, b, c top
priorities.
Art Powell (17:28):
Yeah, I think it's real.
So first of all, one of thethings I miss going to a
non-denominational church orinterdenominational church, the
thing that I think you know, theWestmiser Confession and things
.
There are good reasons to have,like, certain creeds in the
body of Christ that areimportant and, and I think that
(17:51):
that's one thing being in anon-denominational I miss a
little bit like those creeds youknow, and I always say go find
a creed that really you know,really uh, sings to you and work
on that Cause.
in those creeds are some verybasic, fundamental
non-negotiables and theytypically go something like this
that that Jesus was, that waswas prophesied, uh, in the old
(18:15):
Testament, that he was God inthe flesh, that he was in
existence with God since thebeginning.
He's never not been inexistence.
That he's eternal.
That he became man right, thathe died for our sins the
appropriation of sins, I meanthere's a whole theological
argument on that but he died forour sins and that he rose from
the grave and that he, whoeverbelieves in him, shall not
(18:37):
perish Like.
And so there's some, there's areal basic, fundamental line
there that you, that I thinkpeople need to grasp and
understand that these arenon-negotiables, even if people
debate, maybe, how it wasimplemented or how you implement
it.
Is it water, baptism, is itsprinkle, the?
Piet Van Waarde (18:56):
head.
Art Powell (18:57):
You're missing the point.
The point is get baptized,right?
That's an outward sign of ourinward faith, right?
And so, even though there maybe disputes on these
non-negotiables, they're stillnon-negotiables, and I think
it's important that peopleunderstand what those
non-negotiables are.
Piet Van Waarde (19:11):
That's awesome.
Art Powell (19:12):
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (19:13):
Do you see anything happening in the
Christian world that gives youconcern about, like
over-emphasis on certain thingsthings that you want a list or a
weekly publication.
Art Powell (19:26):
No, I think that my biggest concern right now is the
way that politics hasinfluenced the church.
And so one of the big, I tellpeople online all the time the
goal of the church is, or thegoal of the saints, which is the
believers in Christ.
The goal of the saints is thatthey, the believers in Christ.
The goal of the saints is thatthey need to bring Jesus to
(19:47):
their politics.
We don't need to bring politicsinto the church, right, and the
problem is because I see peopletwisting theology to try to
match their favorite politicalparty, and we really need to
stop doing that.
Politics is a system of theworld.
It's like all other systems ofthe world.
You know, I'm the CEO of acompany and corporations, and
(20:10):
capitalism is a system of theworld.
Now, I'm glad I live in acapitalist republic society,
like I don't, I think you know,constitutional republic society.
I personally think it'sprobably the wisest way to live
in a sin-fallen world, but thatdoesn't mean those systems
themselves don't have trouble.
Capitalism lends itself togreed and we're seeing this in
play right now, and I think thatwe as Christians you know.
(20:38):
So my goals as a capitalist CEOwho runs a company is not to go
make all the money in the worldfor myself.
I need to set a better exampleand show that there's a better
way.
How would Jesus run thiscorporation?
How would he treat hisemployees Right?
And so I think it's.
I do.
I do think it's the same withpolitics, like I think, when I'm
convinced, I'll be convincedthat politics isn't affecting
(20:59):
Christianity, but Christianityis affecting politics.
When I see true believersacross the aisle reaching out
and working together,irregardless of what their party
says, right, they're sayinglike no, I can't support my
party may support this.
I can't support it and I'llwork with you to stop it,
whether that be corporate greedor sexual identity or some of
(21:21):
the other things that are goingon.
And I don't see that, and weshould be seeing that.
Piet Van Waarde (21:25):
Yeah, I love that.
I pray for that with youbecause on the surface it just
feels like that, and I'm goingto say something really
controversial here.
Art Powell (21:35):
If you're a Christian who follows Jesus,
right and you're online andyou're having a political debate
, and if you find yourselfpulling down towards demonizing
your opponent who's also aChristian, shut up, like, stop
talking, like, stop tweeting,Stop, like at the bare minimum
(21:56):
right.
That is just not allowed.
We cannot allow anything todivide the body of Christ, least
of all politics, like it shouldnot be divided.
There are Republicans and thereare Democrats who are
Christians, and that's great,but they need to be working for
the kingdom of God and they donot need to be demonizing each
other.
Piet Van Waarde (22:16):
Yeah, well.
Art Powell (22:18):
I'll catch a lot of flack for that, I'm sure.
No, I mean, I agree with you.
Piet Van Waarde (22:22):
I'm just not very optimistic that that's
possible.
During the election cycle, Itried to post some things about
like try to find a way to talkabout principles and values as
opposed to parties andcandidates, and it was just I
(22:44):
gave up.
I mean, it just didn't work.
It was hard.
Art Powell (22:48):
And here's the thing Paul calls us.
So people don't understand thecontext of Paul in Romans.
What he's talking about when hesays you need to obey the
government.
So what happened was is thatthe Romans had got tired of the
Christian and Jews and hadkicked them out of Rome because
they felt that they were beingtoo rebellious.
And then they got invited backin, but they were under what
(23:09):
they call magistrate.
And so what was happening isyou had literally a Roman-like
equivalent of a judge theydidn't call him judge, but judge
and a garrison of troops wholived in.
They had a curfew.
They had to do whatever theywere told by the Romans, and it
is that group of people thatPaul's saying you need to obey
the law and authority and dowhat they tell you to do, so
(23:30):
long as it doesn't go directlyagainst what God is saying.
Now, like, can you imagineChristians in the United States
dealing with that?
Piet Van Waarde (23:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Art Powell (23:40):
And that is really we need to.
We just have got to.
Paul says you need to pray forthose leaders.
So my challenge to Christiansout there is were you praying
for Biden and are you prayingfor Trump?
Regardless of your view ofeither one of them, you are
called to pray.
Piet Van Waarde (23:59):
Thoughts and prayers.
It's under a lot of conflicteven in itself these days.
Anyway, we won't go down thatroad.
Art Powell (24:07):
Yeah, let's not go down.
That would be our day.
Piet Van Waarde (24:10):
So let's say somebody is saying, okay, I
understand that my primaryconcern needs to be, like, an
understanding of scripture, butare there some other resources
that you find helpful, that youtend to turn people to and say,
hey, here are some things youmight?
Art Powell (24:28):
This was such an important question, I wrote it
down just so I'd be careful, andthis list is not extensive.
There are other people, voicesI listen to, and these people
may not be on people's list andthey may even have ones that
they like better.
That's fine.
My whole point is, you'llnotice, this list is not very
long, and I think people need tobe very careful about what
(24:50):
voice they allow inside of theirhead when it comes to the Word
of God.
Piet Van Waarde (24:54):
Yeah.
Art Powell (24:54):
Right and my first influence I put is Jesus and the
Holy Spirit.
That is to me like the mostimportant thing, because you
need to learn to listen to Godand listen for His voice when
you're reading Scripture.
Piet Van Waarde (25:08):
But doesn't that like don't you get a little
scared about that like wheresome people will say some really
wacky things?
Art Powell (25:14):
Again.
But when they say the wackythings nine times out of ten,
it's like someone told them thatmy experience is people who
read their Bible on the regularbasis, and particularly those
who read it front to back, butjust those who read it on a
regular basis.
They rarely come to me.
They may come to me and ask mequestions or they may say, but
most of those people havehumility, they're very quick to
(25:36):
point out they don't understandeverything and most of them just
don't say crazy things.
I'm not saying that's alwaysthe case but I would say I love
that.
Piet Van Waarde (25:45):
Yeah, but I would say I love that.
Art Powell (25:46):
Yeah, I would say 99% of the time it's not.
I have most of the people thatI have problems with.
When they come to me andthey're saying just crazy things
, it's because they heard itfrom someone and they themselves
don't know their Bible well.
So I would say number one isJesus and the Holy Spirit, and I
know that makes people it'slike I'm like I don't know.
God was able to wash my sinsaway through the act of what
(26:07):
Christ did on the cross, but hecan't reveal his word to people
and what they need to know.
Come on, that's a littleinconsistent there, you know
what.
Piet Van Waarde (26:17):
That reminds me of a statement I heard one time
that God like we should trustGod's capacity to get through to
us more than our capacity tohear from him.
So like if we're reallygenuinely open and we're worried
, we won't hear.
God knows how to get through.
God does know how to speak.
Art Powell (26:38):
Yes, if he got through to an agnostic atheist
who was an a-hole.
I don't think he's havingtrouble with anybody else.
And look at the end of the day.
At the end of the day, people's, your view of God and your
theology is going to change asyou grow in Christ.
Because I look at God.
So salvation is not a snapshotof somebody's life.
(26:59):
If my now oh my gosh, soon-tobe 58-year-old self goes back to
my 21-year-old self who justgot born again, boy dude, are
you even saved?
Turns out he was.
He had to work that salvationout.
So one is when I hear people saythings I don't necessarily
agree with, my first thing is Idon't correct them.
I start asking them questions.
(27:19):
So I think we can do a lot ofdamage.
A lot of times people need towork these things out and we
don't give them that freedom todo it Now.
If it's heretical, if it'ssomething out there, you know,
yeah, we're going to have aconversation, but 95, you know
more than that.
98, 99% of the time that's notwhat I'm hearing.
I may be hearing something Idisagree with, but that's
different and their view isgoing to change as I keep
(27:41):
walking it out.
I think the second one is PaulPaul's, under a lot of attack
these days, which is shocking tome.
But you know, he just Godordained him to write two-thirds
of the New Testament, you know.
But Paul, I think.
Paul is, I think, between Pauland Jesus, because Paul does a
great job of expounding on whatJesus already said and Paul
(28:01):
never really says anything,minus a few incidences, anything
outside what Jesus said, likePaul's, in agreement with Jesus.
So he's my number two.
My number three is CS Lewis.
Cs Lewis was so impactful to mebecause people like to classify
him as apologetic, but his MereChristianity, I think, is one
of the most beautiful books ontheology that were ever written
(28:23):
because it gets to a baselinetheology.
And one of the most beautifulbooks on theology that were ever
written because it gets to abaseline theology.
And one of the things I strugglewith is that we try scientism
is the irrational belief thatscience can explain everything
right, and science can't.
It didn't even know whatgravity is.
It can't reconcile quantummechanics with Newtonian physics
(28:45):
.
I love science, I've beenstudying, I read science papers
right, but science is just atool and it can't explain
everything.
But what's happened is thatbled into the church and what we
do in the church is we think wehave to explain everything.
And what CS Lewis was showingis that there's a baseline
theology, that there's also abaseline mystery.
You know it's like I'm rereadingOrigins and Origins got in
(29:05):
trouble because he was bornaround 185 AD, His father was
martyred in the faith and he gotin trouble with the Catholic
Church because now he livedbefore the Council on the Sia.
But he got in trouble with theChurch because he was saying
that like we shouldn't use theword Trinity, because we're
trying to use a word to explainsomething that's inexplicable,
(29:26):
which is the Trinity of God andthe multiplicity of a singular
God.
Those are my words, not his,but I do believe he was right.
Now he was.
Later they took away hisheretical mark and they
reestablished.
Later the church reestablishedhis teachings because some of it
was political, somebody wantedhis seat, but he was right.
(29:48):
There's a knee-jerk reactionwithin the church to try to
explain some of these mysteries.
I'm a sinful human being and Iask people.
Jesus says he lives inside ofme, but how can something holy
and righteous live insidesomething that's not righteous
and holy?
And how does he make merighteous and holy?
And if Jesus is inside of mewhen I do something good, is it
(30:10):
Jesus or is it me?
Look, these are mysteries, evensalvation itself and the
walking out of our salvation isa mystery and I think we need to
try to stop explaining some ofthat away, and I think CS Lewis
is brilliant at showing wherethat line is, where the mystery
is and where something solid wecan stand on.
Piet Van Waarde (30:30):
Let me just camp out at that point with you.
I find for myself that theolder I get, the more I
appreciate mystery.
I thought it would be theopposite.
When I was younger, I felt veryconfident about so many things
you know, yes, Like.
Art Powell (30:47):
I know I went to seminary.
Well, I do everything, that'sright.
I went to seminary, I got adegree.
Piet Van Waarde (30:53):
And then, you know, and we find us kind of
shied away from mystery, exactlylike what you said, because we
felt the need, compulsion, toexplain everything.
But now that I've been abeliever for more than 40 years,
I've realized there's so much Idon't understand fully and I
only have a small grasp onthings.
And I'm okay with mystery.
(31:14):
I don't have to solve it all.
Art Powell (31:16):
Yes, and the Bible's not there to solve it all for
us.
The Bible doesn't give us allthe answers.
It gives us the answers we need.
It tells a fallen world howthey can be saved.
It doesn't tell answers we need.
It tells a fallen world howthey can be saved.
It doesn't tell us quantummechanics.
It doesn't tell us what womenthink I'll have a discussion
with God when I'm meeting withthat the point is why men do the
things they do Like.
The point is is that it tells uswhat we need to know and we try
(31:39):
to treat it like acomprehensive.
This is like all the argumentsover Genesis, like God did not
reveal this stuff to Moses sothat Moses could give a
scientific treatise on how Godformed the world.
The whole point is he createdit and we got to stop treating
the Bible for more than you know.
We don't take it seriously inthe areas we should, and then we
(32:02):
try to push it into arenas thatit really shouldn't be pushed
into.
Yeah, I think.
I think the other one isMichael Heisler.
He I solely miss him.
He was the.
He's passed away.
He was, uh.
He's probably my mostcontroversial one on the list,
but he was uh, had a PhD inHebrew, was the head of of Logos
Software for many years and hisUnseen Realms book is just.
(32:23):
I cannot recommend the.
Unseen Realms book is just.
I cannot recommend it enough.
He brought back spiritualityback into a church in the West
that was walking away from thespiritual side of the gospel and
I can tell you for me it hithome when I had been reading his
stuff and they declassifiedsome of the UFOs and all these
(32:45):
Christian podcasts.
All they were talking about,even though physicists have said
physicists, secular physicists,said these things come from
different dimensions.
They're not visitors from space, because the way they can pop
in and out of existence, andeven though physicists said this
, there was not one podcast.
I listened to about eight or 10podcasts, christian podcasts
(33:05):
about these UFOs.
Not one of them talked abouthow these could be spiritual
beings.
That's how far removed we'veremoved our front, we've moved
our mind from supernatural stuff.
And so Michael has a reallyreestablished that and I was.
I'm very grateful for him onthat.
And then Tim Mackey of theBible Project I love his, yeah,
(33:27):
he is solid, solid, solid, rightand again, I really treat.
I think he's like the CS Lewisof his time.
He gets to that baselineChristianity.
That's important.
He doesn't expound his ownpersonal opinions or get into
areas where it's not solid andyou can really stand on his work
and I really think he's reallygood.
Piet Van Waarde (33:47):
Now, where can you find the Bible Project?
Because I know we can.
Art Powell (33:51):
You can look like Tim Mackey is on YouTube.
The Bible Project is on YouTube.
They've got those greatanimations.
But if you like to hear himspeak, just go to YouTube and if
you Google his name, tim MackeyM-A-CI-E, he will come up and
he's given some great sermonsand stuff.
Piet Van Waarde (34:08):
Their animated stuff is just top shelf.
Art Powell (34:11):
It's top shelf, yeah , the other one is, and then my
other two favorite, and again,these are not in order, minus
the first three.
But the other two is Pastor Roband Yuri Creel.
I think they hit home run everynight.
For someone who reads his Biblewho cannot stand to listen to
most pastors, I'm sorry.
Piet Van Waarde (34:31):
I'm just going to say it.
Art Powell (34:33):
They will say things that in almost 90% of the time,
make me cringe.
Pastor Rob hits a home runalmost every single time.
Now I don't recommend you goback and listen to his old tapes
, but he'll tell you that he isjust so spot on, and Uri too, I
think Uri on this last Wednesdayin communion he just hit a home
(34:53):
run.
They are just so because theway they explain the application
and a gospel, that is both thenatural application of it but at
a supernatural level, and theonly way you can do that, I
think, is through anointing.
But that's my short list.
Piet Van Waarde (35:11):
I love it.
Oh, thanks, that's going to bereally helpful to people.
I appreciate you taking time todo that.
So what are you excited about?
I know that you have always gota number of different projects
that you're working on.
Art Powell (35:21):
My daughter has challenged me.
She challenged me on readingthis.
Last year I was, you know, Iwas going down to about two or
three books a month and she'sreally which I know that some
people will say that, like art,I don't read a book a month.
Right, but you know I'm, Iconsider myself, somewhat of a
scholar, so she got me reallychallenged.
I've been back up to about six,seven books a month, you know.
(35:43):
So that meant some TV shows ofsuffering and some video games
of suffering.
And she laid down the gauntleton me and she's 28.
And she's like I'm going towrite my first book and I want
you to write, I want you tofinish how to Read your Bible,
and so I'm working with her onthat.
So she's holding me accountableand that's been awesome been.
(36:05):
So yeah, I'm hoping to havethat done, uh, here pretty soon.
I've had a rough draft.
Of course, this is the don'tever go back and look at your
first draft when you have nottouched it for several years.
I'm like, no, this is it, we'rerewriting this thing.
So my daughter kind of taughtme off that legend I'm, I'm
redoing it a bit and, uh, I'mgoing to redo it, I am going to
redo it.
There's some, some things andviews of mine that have changed
over the last five years, and soI'm going to finish that and I
hope to have that done by firstquarter of next year, ready to
(36:28):
go self-publish.
And then the first book of my.
I'm going to do a whole firmfoundation series, which is the
class I teach at Shoreline, andthat's starting this Sunday, if
you are interested.
We're going to be this Sunday.
We're going to do what is theBible Like?
What, this Sunday we're goingto do.
What is the Bible?
Is there this secret Biblerunning around that no one knows
(36:49):
about?
Did they cancel them to see it?
Did they exclude all this?
No, no, no, no yeah.
So if people are interested, Irecommend they come to that
class.
It's at 10 am at Shoreline, butif you just go to Shoreline and
look at groups, it's there.
So I'll be starting my firmfoundations'm.
I want to write a short bookfor each class to kind of go
more and delve more into theclass itself.
And I'm going to start with howto read your Bible, which is
(37:11):
the most popular one I have.
That is where I give peoplepractical tools on how to read
your Bible, not just some pie inthe sky, theology stuff, but
like how can I sit down and readmy Bible and actually get
something out of it?
And people have taken thatclass.
The biggest compliment I get isthey say they read their Bible
almost every day now and theyget something out of it.
Piet Van Waarde (37:28):
So that's great , that's awesome, I love it.
You know, you've reminded me ofanother question I wanted to
ask, which is that one of thethings that can happen when
people get interested intheology, so they start reading
somebody's work even likecredible people, yeah and they
get like on this hobby horse oflike, oh, this is the new thing
I got to be, you know and theyget so dogmatic about stuff.
(37:51):
And how do you like, how do youhelp people remain like humble?
And you know, the scripturesays we see in part.
You know Right, and thescripture says we see in part.
So how do you help peoplebecome not too dogmatic on what
we might call debatable matters?
Art Powell (38:12):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think social media has doneus no service.
Piet Van Waarde (38:18):
In that regard?
Yeah, In this regard.
Art Powell (38:19):
Yeah, it's been horrible actually.
I think wait.
So first, I think humility isimportant.
I think I think humility isimportant.
Right, I think humility isimportant.
I think the second thing is islike I will not create correct
anyone, even a small minor issueIf, if I, if I don't know them
(38:40):
well enough to do it Right, knowthem well enough to do it right
.
In other words, you know, I mayhave some theological debates
online, but I keep it.
You know, I keep it honest andloving and mature.
But I think the way we need toapproach this is you know, is it
heresy?
And there's a very narrowdefinition of heresy in the
Bible.
You know, is it significant?
(39:02):
It's probably not.
Then it's okay, you can debateabout it, but don't take it.
Paul says endless argument.
He says don't get into theseendless arguments.
Right, and I think that's theway to approach it.
Like the gospel is meant to belived, it's not meant to be
argued, right, and if youactually go out and live the
gospel, you're going to actuallyhave more open-minded views
(39:25):
about some of these secondaryand tertiary issues than if you
don't.
And I find that people are morenarrow-minded.
I'm always suspicious in theback of my mind it's like are
you really following Jesus?
Are you living this out?
Because if you're living it out, the most important thing is
like does this person know Jesus?
Are they following Jesus?
Everything else falls second.
You know, I meet people all thetime like Catholics aren't
(39:45):
saved.
I'm like, really, like I knowProtestants, I question their
salvation.
So what does being Catholichave to do about it?
And so I think we need, youknow, I think we need to be
really careful about that, and Ithink part of the problem is
the word belief.
In the Greek and I forget theexact, I'm probably going to
misquote it, so I don't want todo that but in the word, the
(40:05):
word Greek does not mean theWestern word belief.
It doesn't.
In Greek, it means you put yourtrust into it at the point of
like your life.
So Socrates was believed to betrue.
Why Not?
Because they thought he wasright with the Greeks.
They thought he believed he wastrue because he was willing to
die for it.
Yeah, and that's the Greek wordfor belief.
(40:31):
Is you're willing to put yourwhole life into it and believe
it, right?
Not some mental ascension,right?
It's not enough just to say, oh, I believe.
Because when people say Ibelieve in Jesus, I'm thinking
in the West.
First thing in my head is do youmean the Greek word belief,
where you're willing to die forit, or do you mean a mental
ascension?
(40:51):
And I think if you're willing todie for Jesus and follow him
and do whatever he tells you todo, then all these other issues
kind of become.
They get washed out, becauseyou're going to approach
everything with love to startwith and you're called to love
your enemies and you're calledto do good to those who do evil
to you and you're called not tolive according to the way the
world lives.
And I always tell people whenyou master those things, come
back and tell me and then youcan tell me where I'm wrong on
(41:13):
baptism, where I'm wrong on someof this other stuff, right?
So humility needs to be what wedo, and I know Catholics who
know Jesus and I knowProtestants who know Jesus and I
think we need to kind of getoff our little high horse and
stop thinking we know all thisstuff, because I have a friend
(41:33):
of mine.
There's this point inRevelations where it's like
there's silence for 30 minutes,and I'm always like I asked this
friend of mine.
I was like why in Revelationit's not Revelation, revelation?
I always ask him.
Piet Van Waarde (41:43):
I was like why do you think there's silence?
Art Powell (41:49):
in there.
Piet Van Waarde (41:50):
He goes art, because that is what he's going
to correct all of our theology,all right.
Well, this has been a reallygreat conversation.
Where can people find yourstuff?
Art Powell (41:57):
Yeah, Twitter, Saved by Jay, is my handle.
My Facebook same thing Saved byJay.
I have a page called FirmFoundations.
If you just look up FirmFoundations and you see me on
there my AI-generatedyounger-looking self then you
will.
He does have the fedora, sothen you will see that I'm also.
(42:19):
I do have an Instagram accountthat's about to go active.
I'm going to be doing someshorts on theology on Instagram,
so Jennifer Ornstein and acouple others have been
encouraging me and my wife to dothat, so I'm beginning to
follow up on that.
Piet Van Waarde (42:30):
Yep Well, thank you, Art.
It's been great having thisconversation.
I appreciate you taking thetime.
I know you're a really busy guy, but it means so much to me and
I'm sure that our audience gota lot out of what you had to
share.
Art Powell (42:42):
I hope so, and glad you had me.
Piet Van Waarde (42:49):
So thank you for joining us.
We are so grateful that you arepart of our conversation and we
hope that you join us againnext week for another Sidewalk
Conversation.
Hello and welcome to another Sidewalk
Conversation.
So glad that you're here.
In fact, I want to start with aquestion, and I hope that
you'll take a moment to considerit, and the question is this
what do you think is the mostimportant thought process that a
believer must embrace?
Now, my guess is that some ofyou might say well, that's easy,
(00:23):
you know, I need to be thinkingabout love, or I need to be
thinking about faithfulness orservice, and as important as all
those things are, I want toargue for a slightly different
point of view.
And that is that the primary ormost important thought process
we need to consider is ourunderstanding about the nature
(00:45):
of God.
That's where it all starts.
Then everything else flows fromthat.
Now, a lot of times when Imention the word theology,
people kind of imagine somethingvery dry and boring and dusty,
that's basically reserved fortheologians and seminary
professors and not reallysomething that rank and file
(01:07):
believers need to be thinkingabout.
But if you think about it, itreally is one of the most
important dimensions of ourfaith.
In fact, everything flows outof our theology.
In fact, one of the thingswe're going to talk about today
is that everybody already has atheology.
Like, if you think about it,when you start imagining how
(01:29):
you're going to processsuffering or how you're going to
deal with temptation or how yourelate to the world around you,
all of those things are aproduct of your theology.
In fact, aw Tozer said famouslythe thing that comes to mind
when we think about God is themost important thing about us,
(01:50):
and so what we're going to do inour podcast today is we're
going to kind of unwrap that andtalk a little bit about why
it's so important to have arobust biblical theology, that
it doesn't have to be a boringjourney.
In fact, to take theologyseriously is part of what makes
our Christian journey anadventure, and I am excited
(02:11):
about the person that I havehere today who's going to help
us navigate this conversationour local kind of preeminent
theologian that I'm bringingback from season one, and I
can't wait to introduce them toyou again Today.
(02:38):
I want to say a special thanksto the Van Ward Foundation.
This is supported by ourPatreon members, so we have a
group of people who understandand value what we're doing in
this ministry that has variouspoints of view and various
channels that we produce.
So we have a newsletter, wehave a podcast, we have pocket
(03:01):
prayers, we have variousproductions from my authoring,
and so all of that is supportedthrough the Van Ward Foundation
and that is supported throughPatreon members, and you can
find all of that if you'reinterested in being a part at
Patreon, at Pete Van Ward, andyou can become a monthly
subscriber.
(03:21):
You can become a supporter as aone-time gift, but all of those
resources fund the variousinitiatives that we have going
on through the Van WardFoundation and if you're already
a part, thank you for doing so.
All right, well, let's turn ourattention to the guest today,
my good friend Art Powell.
Art Powell (03:42):
Thank you.
I'm surprised you had me backafter the first one, but thank
you.
Piet Van Waarde (03:46):
Yeah, so we had you all the way back in season
one.
Thank you for making a returnvisit.
Art Powell (03:51):
Really appreciate it .
Yeah, glad to be back.
Piet Van Waarde (03:53):
So that's been a couple of years, so why don't?
You just like start with givingus a little update on what
you've been doing, where you'vebeen kind of focusing your
attention.
Art Powell (04:01):
Yeah, the last couple of years have been
interesting, so I am also.
I have a day job, so I'm the.
Ceo of a company I founded 20years ago this year Wow,
congratulations, 20 years Ithink yes Anyway, so I do love
it.
I mean, it can be a challengeat times, but I do love it.
Piet Van Waarde (04:18):
And what kind of company is it for those who-.
Art Powell (04:21):
Yeah, it's just a technology services company, so
we've got about 30 employees,between 30 and 35 employees, and
it presents me the day-to-daychallenges.
But I do love it because Ithink it's important to live out
one's theology and this givesme an opportunity to do that and
all the challenges, to be inthe middle of situations.
(04:41):
And I want to let out a stringof expletives sometimes I can't
do it.
I'm like no, what would Jesusdo?
Okay, no, you can't do that.
Uh, but so it is good.
It keeps me healthy and keepsme in check.
Uh, wife and I are doingextremely well.
We just hit 34 years ofmarriage been there for 38 years
.
Yes, she was Hispanic.
(05:02):
I still have on my limbs so Ido consider that an
accomplishment.
Piet Van Waarde (05:05):
So she hopefully she's not watching
this.
Yeah, yeah, she will be butthat's okay, she's a.
Art Powell (05:15):
she's a sweetheart.
Most of the time she's asweetheart.
I love her, um, and I can'timagine being without her.
And uh, uh, I did.
I was able to reconcile with myson fully.
So there was that was.
Piet Van Waarde (05:22):
There was something, yeah, that was a real
gift.
Art Powell (05:24):
Uh, and we've, and, uh, I did have a health scare.
Um, I had, uh, I had a defib.
Uh, you know where you, yourheart is beating out of sync.
And about the, they say it'sthe closest thing to having a
heart attack without having aheart attack.
Okay, and then, immediatelyafter I went for my checkup and
my doc was like you know what hegoes.
You have two choices here youneed to get your health in shape
(05:47):
or you're going on medicine.
My cholesterol I don't mindsharing, it was like 198.
I was, I was, I was apre-diabetic and I'm very happy
to report in three and a halfmonths I lost 36 pounds, I
dropped my cholesterol a hundredpoints and I'm no longer
pre-diabetic.
In fact, he was so impressed hewas like you can just see me in
May and I was, so I'm going tokeep it up.
Piet Van Waarde (06:09):
I feel a lot better.
Art Powell (06:10):
So you know, and seeing you go through your, your
health stuff, it was just youreally inspired me that I could
do it.
Piet Van Waarde (06:16):
I really didn't have any excuses.
Art Powell (06:18):
I needed to stop shoving all that food in my
mouth that I didn't need.
So, yeah, so that's been good.
So you know, I've also acquireda bit of a following on Twitter
theologically on my theologicalTwitter and enjoying that.
Piet Van Waarde (06:32):
What's the handle?
Art Powell (06:33):
It's Saved by J, s-a-v-e-b-y-j Saved by Jesus,
and I've been enjoying that,still teaching firm foundations
at Shoreline.
And so yeah, just the last twoyears.
Piet Van Waarde (06:44):
Yeah, firm foundations at Shoreline, and so
yeah, just the last two years.
Yeah, because theology is notjust like a little side interest
for you.
Art Powell (06:50):
No, no, yeah, dr Dickey said it best, I think, at
our church.
He said he goes, art, you gotborn again.
You just kept digging.
And I've been digging for over30 years and I went into
apologetics, and part of it waswhen I got born again.
I was agnostic, atheist, and somy heart and mind weren't
synced, and so I went intoagnostics, which was the next
(07:13):
natural step, and then I justkept going and then I taught
Christian philosophyprofessionally to Christian kids
.
That was interesting, I couldtell you some horror stories
there, and then I went into andthen I started teaching you some
horror stories there, and thenI started teaching men theology
at Shoreline and now I teach thechurch to men and women, I
teach the staff and I really,really enjoy it.
(07:34):
Yeah, you're right, it's apassion of mine and if I ever do
retire from work then there'llprobably be a full-time passion.
I love it.
Piet Van Waarde (07:44):
So I think one of the and I kind of mentioned
this in the introduction I thinkone of the things that becomes
an intimidating factor forbelievers is they kind of get
scared off even by the word liketheology.
I don't know, can I reallyreally understand this stuff?
So let me just start with, likewhat would be your pitch for
(08:09):
why theology should matter forthe quote, unquote rank and file
Christian.
Art Powell (08:13):
Yeah, and that's a great question.
And I, first of all, I am not.
I do not have a degree, so thatI always tell people that, so
they have, they can hopefullyfeel a little less threatened.
Like I don't have a PhD or amaster's or even a degree in
theology and it's something Iself-taught.
But I do think theology isimportant.
I like CS Lewis's analogy.
(08:35):
He said that it's like a map,right, and maps are important.
They help you from getting lost, they help you from you know
you don't want to, from gettingout of bounds, so you can't
discard a map.
Now the reverse is true.
The map is not the actual trip,right, and so you can't, really
you can't, you can't separatethe two.
(08:57):
And I see a lot of people tryingto separate the two.
They were like, oh, we justfollow Jesus.
Well, jesus had theology, hadtheology in the New Testament,
right.
And then there's the.
You know we don't need all thattheological stuff, we can just
follow Jesus.
Well, no, that doesn't cut it.
And then you know, because Jesussays a lot of things, that if
you don't have some basicunderstanding of the Old
Testament, you will miss it, andsome very important things.
(09:19):
The other side of the fence is.
You have these and I don't wantto offend anybody, so I'm not
saying they're all like this butyou have these really stuffy
PhDs who are like well, you mustbelieve in this doctrine, you
must believe in that doctrine.
And Jesus went after some ofthose and he said you search the
scriptures for life, so youwon't come to me, right, but you
won't come to me.
And so I think it's veryimportant that we can't separate
(09:41):
the two, right.
So the gospel is truth thatneeds to be experienced, and
it's also an experience in truth.
So the truth, the theology, iswhat helps us stay on the map
and not go off into the farm andget weird, and so you can't
ignore theology.
It's important.
Piet Van Waarde (10:01):
All right.
So I love the way you describedthat, and CS Lewis is one of my
faves as well and so let's say,somebody said all right, I've
come to a conclusion that I needthis.
I need to give attention tothis in my daily life.
Where would you encouragepeople to begin?
Art Powell (10:22):
Yeah, and what I'm going to tell you is probably
not the expected answer, but Iwould say begin, read the Bible
from front to back, because Ithink one of the even I see this
, unfortunately, even with veryhighly educated people is that
you can miss certain things ifyou don't have an overarching
(10:43):
view of the Bible.
There are people who try todisassociate the God of the Old
Testament from Jesus and youcan't do that and they're like,
well, he's violent.
I was like, yeah, becausethat's kind of like why the
gospel is good news right.
Because I've met both.
(11:04):
And the way I got saved is Imet the God of the Old Testament
first, and then I met Jesus.
And let me tell you like, whenI read the Old Testament for the
first time, I had no troublebelieving who that God, like
that God was real, because I'dmet him.
He's a holy, righteous God whodemands holiness and
righteousness.
But you know, and then I got tomeet the love of Jesus and the
(11:29):
grace of Jesus.
Right, so he's both.
You can't separate the two.
Piet Van Waarde (11:33):
I love how you said that.
I just want to hit anexclamation point there, because
you can't fully appreciategrace in the gospel without that
understanding of the law andwhat his nature is as a core as
well.
So he's not just grace, he istruth.
Art Powell (11:50):
Yeah, jesus didn't say, oh, I came and removed the
law.
He said I did not come toremove the law, I came to
fulfill it.
And unless you really graspwhat that means, what he's
saying is, paul says the law wasput there to reveal our sin.
It wasn't there.
It was there to show us our sin.
(12:11):
It wasn't to the law, neverperfected anybody.
And if you don't understand that, then you sometimes will walk
into Christianity thinking, oh,you know, be good, do better, be
good, be better right.
No, that's not whatChristianity is.
Christianity is you could neverbe good Like on your best day.
You're not good Like if youdon't get born again.
If you don't allow Jesus to dosomething inside of you, you
cannot be good.
(12:32):
And so I think it's veryimportant.
That's why theology is soimportant.
But that's why it's soimportant to read the Bible as a
whole, and you can't takepieces out of it.
And I think one of the bestdefenses against bad theology is
understanding the Bible as awhole, from front to back.
You don't have to go to theextreme I've gone to, but I read
the Bible front to back everyyear.
I've been doing that for 20plus years, maybe a little
(12:54):
longer, and so the more you dothat and I recommend everybody
do it at least once or twice.
And I recommend everybody do itat least once or twice because
you see this arc that you willnever unsee again, and then you
begin to understand some thingsthat make more sense, like when
(13:21):
Jesus taught.
Because, like most people don'trealize, like all the literally
every miracle that Jesus did wasalready had been done in the
Old Testament, he's doing themagain to show like, hey, I'm the
guy who did those miracles inthe Old Testament.
Right, and you'll miss that ifyou don't.
You know, a lot of people actlike the miracles of Jesus were
new.
They weren't.
They were in the Bible, theywere just less frequent and
spread over a long.
You know, eons as opposed to.
But Jesus is saying, hey, I'mthe guy who did those miracles,
(13:45):
see, because I'm proving it.
And that's what he meant whenhe said believe in me because of
the miracles I perform.
Now in the Western culture wethink, oh, yeah, he's doing some
pretty crazy stuff, so he mustbe God.
But what he's telling hisJewish audience, which was his
primary audience in thebeginning, is believe in me
because I'm doing the samemiracles that God did in the Old
(14:05):
Testament.
Piet Van Waarde (14:06):
Which they were obviously very familiar with.
Art Powell (14:08):
They were very familiar with.
And so having this gives adeeper understanding, and this
is why you can't.
This is why I think the veryprimary thing is to understand
where you, to understand theBible as a whole.
One of the things I've learnedover the years because when I
teach people to read the Biblefor themselves, I get a lot of
criticism, particularly online,where people say, well, that's
(14:28):
dangerous.
And I'm like, not really.
Because, first of all, jesussaid call no man your teacher, I
will teach you.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit wantto teach us scripture.
But the second thing is mypersonal experience has been
over the years is when I hearsomebody say something that's
like off and left field, youknow, way off the ranch, just
(14:49):
crazy.
You know what?
The first thing I ask them isit's not.
Where is that in the Bible?
Because I know they didn't getit from the Bible.
The very first thing I askedthem is who told you that?
And so if you know your Bibleyou're not you're going to be
much more resistant to thesepeople who are saying some
really weird things, because youwill know like this doesn't
(15:10):
align with what the Bible says.
And so I say start withbiblical knowledge.
Piet Van Waarde (15:13):
I love that perspective.
I had a seminary professor whokind of said it this way.
He said when you learn aboutscripture and theology, it's not
necessarily going to make you agreat Christian, but it will
probably keep you from being abad heretic.
That is really good.
Art Powell (15:31):
And it also keeps you from error right.
Error is important.
So, and that's we use heretictoo much outside the church
anyway, because it's defined inthe Bible, it's simply as
someone who does not believethat Jesus was God in the flesh.
Right, but more importantly, itkeeps from error, and that's
the key right.
Because people say, well, youjust need to love your neighbor
(15:52):
as yourself.
Well, no, that's not what Jesussaid.
Jesus said love God and thenlove your neighbor.
The two are linked.
You can't unlink them, right?
And so it's these little thingsthat when you know, I love it.
When people tell me, they'realways like oh well, if I met
the Jesus of the Bible, you knowI like him.
I don't like the Christians.
I'm like well, you just told meyou don't know the Jesus of the
(16:12):
Bible, because if you reallyread what he said he would have,
he's going to offend youmultiple times.
He still offends me to this day.
He called a woman a dog.
I'm still dealing with that.
So this is why it's importantthat we know the Bible ourselves
, because that is the best of it.
And I'm not saying you don'tlisten to other people, and I'm
not saying you don't listen to,but even they can make Even.
(16:35):
You know, I've gone back andI've been revisiting the fathers
of the faith, the ones who cameright after the apostles, and
you know, even they can get alittle flaky sometimes.
Right, it's important that weknow the word of God.
Piet Van Waarde (16:48):
So when a person thinks about theology, I
think one of the things is and Ilove your suggestion to start
with scripture, because we'verelated a long time I've noticed
how you continue to come backto your chronological Bible
every year and all of that,which I respect a ton.
(17:13):
And in addition to that, arethere some things that you say
like are a priority, theologicalpoints, like where you say you
really like, if you're going to,of all the things you could be
learning and thinking about,these are the like A, b, c top
priorities.
Art Powell (17:28):
Yeah, I think it's real.
So first of all, one of thethings I miss going to a
non-denominational church orinterdenominational church, the
thing that I think you know, theWestmiser Confession and things
.
There are good reasons to have,like, certain creeds in the
body of Christ that areimportant and, and I think that
(17:51):
that's one thing being in anon-denominational I miss a
little bit like those creeds youknow, and I always say go find
a creed that really you know,really uh, sings to you and work
on that Cause.
in those creeds are some verybasic, fundamental
non-negotiables and theytypically go something like this
that that Jesus was, that waswas prophesied, uh, in the old
(18:15):
Testament, that he was God inthe flesh, that he was in
existence with God since thebeginning.
He's never not been inexistence.
That he's eternal.
That he became man right, thathe died for our sins the
appropriation of sins, I meanthere's a whole theological
argument on that but he died forour sins and that he rose from
the grave and that he, whoeverbelieves in him, shall not
(18:37):
perish Like.
And so there's some, there's areal basic, fundamental line
there that you, that I thinkpeople need to grasp and
understand that these arenon-negotiables, even if people
debate, maybe, how it wasimplemented or how you implement
it.
Is it water, baptism, is itsprinkle, the?
Piet Van Waarde (18:56):
head.
Art Powell (18:57):
You're missing the point.
The point is get baptized,right?
That's an outward sign of ourinward faith, right?
And so, even though there maybe disputes on these
non-negotiables, they're stillnon-negotiables, and I think
it's important that peopleunderstand what those
non-negotiables are.
Piet Van Waarde (19:11):
That's awesome.
Art Powell (19:12):
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (19:13):
Do you see anything happening in the
Christian world that gives youconcern about, like
over-emphasis on certain thingsthings that you want a list or a
weekly publication.
Art Powell (19:26):
No, I think that my biggest concern right now is the
way that politics hasinfluenced the church.
And so one of the big, I tellpeople online all the time the
goal of the church is, or thegoal of the saints, which is the
believers in Christ.
The goal of the saints is thatthey, the believers in Christ.
The goal of the saints is thatthey need to bring Jesus to
(19:47):
their politics.
We don't need to bring politicsinto the church, right, and the
problem is because I see peopletwisting theology to try to
match their favorite politicalparty, and we really need to
stop doing that.
Politics is a system of theworld.
It's like all other systems ofthe world.
You know, I'm the CEO of acompany and corporations, and
(20:10):
capitalism is a system of theworld.
Now, I'm glad I live in acapitalist republic society,
like I don't, I think you know,constitutional republic society.
I personally think it'sprobably the wisest way to live
in a sin-fallen world, but thatdoesn't mean those systems
themselves don't have trouble.
Capitalism lends itself togreed and we're seeing this in
play right now, and I think thatwe as Christians you know.
(20:38):
So my goals as a capitalist CEOwho runs a company is not to go
make all the money in the worldfor myself.
I need to set a better exampleand show that there's a better
way.
How would Jesus run thiscorporation?
How would he treat hisemployees Right?
And so I think it's.
I do.
I do think it's the same withpolitics, like I think, when I'm
convinced, I'll be convincedthat politics isn't affecting
(20:59):
Christianity, but Christianityis affecting politics.
When I see true believersacross the aisle reaching out
and working together,irregardless of what their party
says, right, they're sayinglike no, I can't support my
party may support this.
I can't support it and I'llwork with you to stop it,
whether that be corporate greedor sexual identity or some of
(21:21):
the other things that are goingon.
And I don't see that, and weshould be seeing that.
Piet Van Waarde (21:25):
Yeah, I love that.
I pray for that with youbecause on the surface it just
feels like that, and I'm goingto say something really
controversial here.
Art Powell (21:35):
If you're a Christian who follows Jesus,
right and you're online andyou're having a political debate
, and if you find yourselfpulling down towards demonizing
your opponent who's also aChristian, shut up, like, stop
talking, like, stop tweeting,Stop, like at the bare minimum
(21:56):
right.
That is just not allowed.
We cannot allow anything todivide the body of Christ, least
of all politics, like it shouldnot be divided.
There are Republicans and thereare Democrats who are
Christians, and that's great,but they need to be working for
the kingdom of God and they donot need to be demonizing each
other.
Piet Van Waarde (22:16):
Yeah, well.
Art Powell (22:18):
I'll catch a lot of flack for that, I'm sure.
No, I mean, I agree with you.
Piet Van Waarde (22:22):
I'm just not very optimistic that that's
possible.
During the election cycle, Itried to post some things about
like try to find a way to talkabout principles and values as
opposed to parties andcandidates, and it was just I
(22:44):
gave up.
I mean, it just didn't work.
It was hard.
Art Powell (22:48):
And here's the thing Paul calls us.
So people don't understand thecontext of Paul in Romans.
What he's talking about when hesays you need to obey the
government.
So what happened was is thatthe Romans had got tired of the
Christian and Jews and hadkicked them out of Rome because
they felt that they were beingtoo rebellious.
And then they got invited backin, but they were under what
(23:09):
they call magistrate.
And so what was happening isyou had literally a Roman-like
equivalent of a judge theydidn't call him judge, but judge
and a garrison of troops wholived in.
They had a curfew.
They had to do whatever theywere told by the Romans, and it
is that group of people thatPaul's saying you need to obey
the law and authority and dowhat they tell you to do, so
(23:30):
long as it doesn't go directlyagainst what God is saying.
Now, like, can you imagineChristians in the United States
dealing with that?
Piet Van Waarde (23:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Art Powell (23:40):
And that is really we need to.
We just have got to.
Paul says you need to pray forthose leaders.
So my challenge to Christiansout there is were you praying
for Biden and are you prayingfor Trump?
Regardless of your view ofeither one of them, you are
called to pray.
Piet Van Waarde (23:59):
Thoughts and prayers.
It's under a lot of conflicteven in itself these days.
Anyway, we won't go down thatroad.
Art Powell (24:07):
Yeah, let's not go down.
That would be our day.
Piet Van Waarde (24:10):
So let's say somebody is saying, okay, I
understand that my primaryconcern needs to be, like, an
understanding of scripture, butare there some other resources
that you find helpful, that youtend to turn people to and say,
hey, here are some things youmight?
Art Powell (24:28):
This was such an important question, I wrote it
down just so I'd be careful, andthis list is not extensive.
There are other people, voicesI listen to, and these people
may not be on people's list andthey may even have ones that
they like better.
That's fine.
My whole point is, you'llnotice, this list is not very
long, and I think people need tobe very careful about what
(24:50):
voice they allow inside of theirhead when it comes to the Word
of God.
Piet Van Waarde (24:54):
Yeah.
Art Powell (24:54):
Right and my first influence I put is Jesus and the
Holy Spirit.
That is to me like the mostimportant thing, because you
need to learn to listen to Godand listen for His voice when
you're reading Scripture.
Piet Van Waarde (25:08):
But doesn't that like don't you get a little
scared about that like wheresome people will say some really
wacky things?
Art Powell (25:14):
Again.
But when they say the wackythings nine times out of ten,
it's like someone told them thatmy experience is people who
read their Bible on the regularbasis, and particularly those
who read it front to back, butjust those who read it on a
regular basis.
They rarely come to me.
They may come to me and ask mequestions or they may say, but
most of those people havehumility, they're very quick to
(25:36):
point out they don't understandeverything and most of them just
don't say crazy things.
I'm not saying that's alwaysthe case but I would say I love
that.
Piet Van Waarde (25:45):
Yeah, but I would say I love that.
Art Powell (25:46):
Yeah, I would say 99% of the time it's not.
I have most of the people thatI have problems with.
When they come to me andthey're saying just crazy things
, it's because they heard itfrom someone and they themselves
don't know their Bible well.
So I would say number one isJesus and the Holy Spirit, and I
know that makes people it'slike I'm like I don't know.
God was able to wash my sinsaway through the act of what
(26:07):
Christ did on the cross, but hecan't reveal his word to people
and what they need to know.
Come on, that's a littleinconsistent there, you know
what.
Piet Van Waarde (26:17):
That reminds me of a statement I heard one time
that God like we should trustGod's capacity to get through to
us more than our capacity tohear from him.
So like if we're reallygenuinely open and we're worried
, we won't hear.
God knows how to get through.
God does know how to speak.
Art Powell (26:38):
Yes, if he got through to an agnostic atheist
who was an a-hole.
I don't think he's havingtrouble with anybody else.
And look at the end of the day.
At the end of the day, people's, your view of God and your
theology is going to change asyou grow in Christ.
Because I look at God.
So salvation is not a snapshotof somebody's life.
(26:59):
If my now oh my gosh, soon-tobe 58-year-old self goes back to
my 21-year-old self who justgot born again, boy dude, are
you even saved?
Turns out he was.
He had to work that salvationout.
So one is when I hear people saythings I don't necessarily
agree with, my first thing is Idon't correct them.
I start asking them questions.
(27:19):
So I think we can do a lot ofdamage.
A lot of times people need towork these things out and we
don't give them that freedom todo it Now.
If it's heretical, if it'ssomething out there, you know,
yeah, we're going to have aconversation, but 95, you know
more than that.
98, 99% of the time that's notwhat I'm hearing.
I may be hearing something Idisagree with, but that's
different and their view isgoing to change as I keep
(27:41):
walking it out.
I think the second one is PaulPaul's, under a lot of attack
these days, which is shocking tome.
But you know, he just Godordained him to write two-thirds
of the New Testament, you know.
But Paul, I think.
Paul is, I think, between Pauland Jesus, because Paul does a
great job of expounding on whatJesus already said and Paul
(28:01):
never really says anything,minus a few incidences, anything
outside what Jesus said, likePaul's, in agreement with Jesus.
So he's my number two.
My number three is CS Lewis.
Cs Lewis was so impactful to mebecause people like to classify
him as apologetic, but his MereChristianity, I think, is one
of the most beautiful books ontheology that were ever written
(28:23):
because it gets to a baselinetheology.
And one of the most beautifulbooks on theology that were ever
written because it gets to abaseline theology.
And one of the things I strugglewith is that we try scientism
is the irrational belief thatscience can explain everything
right, and science can't.
It didn't even know whatgravity is.
It can't reconcile quantummechanics with Newtonian physics
(28:45):
.
I love science, I've beenstudying, I read science papers
right, but science is just atool and it can't explain
everything.
But what's happened is thatbled into the church and what we
do in the church is we think wehave to explain everything.
And what CS Lewis was showingis that there's a baseline
theology, that there's also abaseline mystery.
You know it's like I'm rereadingOrigins and Origins got in
(29:05):
trouble because he was bornaround 185 AD, His father was
martyred in the faith and he gotin trouble with the Catholic
Church because now he livedbefore the Council on the Sia.
But he got in trouble with theChurch because he was saying
that like we shouldn't use theword Trinity, because we're
trying to use a word to explainsomething that's inexplicable,
(29:26):
which is the Trinity of God andthe multiplicity of a singular
God.
Those are my words, not his,but I do believe he was right.
Now he was.
Later they took away hisheretical mark and they
reestablished.
Later the church reestablishedhis teachings because some of it
was political, somebody wantedhis seat, but he was right.
(29:48):
There's a knee-jerk reactionwithin the church to try to
explain some of these mysteries.
I'm a sinful human being and Iask people.
Jesus says he lives inside ofme, but how can something holy
and righteous live insidesomething that's not righteous
and holy?
And how does he make merighteous and holy?
And if Jesus is inside of mewhen I do something good, is it
(30:10):
Jesus or is it me?
Look, these are mysteries, evensalvation itself and the
walking out of our salvation isa mystery and I think we need to
try to stop explaining some ofthat away, and I think CS Lewis
is brilliant at showing wherethat line is, where the mystery
is and where something solid wecan stand on.
Piet Van Waarde (30:30):
Let me just camp out at that point with you.
I find for myself that theolder I get, the more I
appreciate mystery.
I thought it would be theopposite.
When I was younger, I felt veryconfident about so many things
you know, yes, Like.
Art Powell (30:47):
I know I went to seminary.
Well, I do everything, that'sright.
I went to seminary, I got adegree.
Piet Van Waarde (30:53):
And then, you know, and we find us kind of
shied away from mystery, exactlylike what you said, because we
felt the need, compulsion, toexplain everything.
But now that I've been abeliever for more than 40 years,
I've realized there's so much Idon't understand fully and I
only have a small grasp onthings.
And I'm okay with mystery.
(31:14):
I don't have to solve it all.
Art Powell (31:16):
Yes, and the Bible's not there to solve it all for
us.
The Bible doesn't give us allthe answers.
It gives us the answers we need.
It tells a fallen world howthey can be saved.
It doesn't tell answers we need.
It tells a fallen world howthey can be saved.
It doesn't tell us quantummechanics.
It doesn't tell us what womenthink I'll have a discussion
with God when I'm meeting withthat the point is why men do the
things they do Like.
The point is is that it tells uswhat we need to know and we try
(31:39):
to treat it like acomprehensive.
This is like all the argumentsover Genesis, like God did not
reveal this stuff to Moses sothat Moses could give a
scientific treatise on how Godformed the world.
The whole point is he createdit and we got to stop treating
the Bible for more than you know.
We don't take it seriously inthe areas we should, and then we
(32:02):
try to push it into arenas thatit really shouldn't be pushed
into.
Yeah, I think.
I think the other one isMichael Heisler.
He I solely miss him.
He was the.
He's passed away.
He was, uh.
He's probably my mostcontroversial one on the list,
but he was uh, had a PhD inHebrew, was the head of of Logos
Software for many years and hisUnseen Realms book is just.
(32:23):
I cannot recommend the.
Unseen Realms book is just.
I cannot recommend it enough.
He brought back spiritualityback into a church in the West
that was walking away from thespiritual side of the gospel and
I can tell you for me it hithome when I had been reading his
stuff and they declassifiedsome of the UFOs and all these
(32:45):
Christian podcasts.
All they were talking about,even though physicists have said
physicists, secular physicists,said these things come from
different dimensions.
They're not visitors from space, because the way they can pop
in and out of existence, andeven though physicists said this
, there was not one podcast.
I listened to about eight or 10podcasts, christian podcasts
(33:05):
about these UFOs.
Not one of them talked abouthow these could be spiritual
beings.
That's how far removed we'veremoved our front, we've moved
our mind from supernatural stuff.
And so Michael has a reallyreestablished that and I was.
I'm very grateful for him onthat.
And then Tim Mackey of theBible Project I love his, yeah,
(33:27):
he is solid, solid, solid, rightand again, I really treat.
I think he's like the CS Lewisof his time.
He gets to that baselineChristianity.
That's important.
He doesn't expound his ownpersonal opinions or get into
areas where it's not solid andyou can really stand on his work
and I really think he's reallygood.
Piet Van Waarde (33:47):
Now, where can you find the Bible Project?
Because I know we can.
Art Powell (33:51):
You can look like Tim Mackey is on YouTube.
The Bible Project is on YouTube.
They've got those greatanimations.
But if you like to hear himspeak, just go to YouTube and if
you Google his name, tim MackeyM-A-CI-E, he will come up and
he's given some great sermonsand stuff.
Piet Van Waarde (34:08):
Their animated stuff is just top shelf.
Art Powell (34:11):
It's top shelf, yeah , the other one is, and then my
other two favorite, and again,these are not in order, minus
the first three.
But the other two is Pastor Roband Yuri Creel.
I think they hit home run everynight.
For someone who reads his Biblewho cannot stand to listen to
most pastors, I'm sorry.
Piet Van Waarde (34:31):
I'm just going to say it.
Art Powell (34:33):
They will say things that in almost 90% of the time,
make me cringe.
Pastor Rob hits a home runalmost every single time.
Now I don't recommend you goback and listen to his old tapes
, but he'll tell you that he isjust so spot on, and Uri too, I
think Uri on this last Wednesdayin communion he just hit a home
(34:53):
run.
They are just so because theway they explain the application
and a gospel, that is both thenatural application of it but at
a supernatural level, and theonly way you can do that, I
think, is through anointing.
But that's my short list.
Piet Van Waarde (35:11):
I love it.
Oh, thanks, that's going to bereally helpful to people.
I appreciate you taking time todo that.
So what are you excited about?
I know that you have always gota number of different projects
that you're working on.
Art Powell (35:21):
My daughter has challenged me.
She challenged me on readingthis.
Last year I was, you know, Iwas going down to about two or
three books a month and she'sreally which I know that some
people will say that, like art,I don't read a book a month.
Right, but you know I'm, Iconsider myself, somewhat of a
scholar, so she got me reallychallenged.
I've been back up to about six,seven books a month, you know.
(35:43):
So that meant some TV shows ofsuffering and some video games
of suffering.
And she laid down the gauntleton me and she's 28.
And she's like I'm going towrite my first book and I want
you to write, I want you tofinish how to Read your Bible,
and so I'm working with her onthat.
So she's holding me accountableand that's been awesome been.
(36:05):
So yeah, I'm hoping to havethat done, uh, here pretty soon.
I've had a rough draft.
Of course, this is the don'tever go back and look at your
first draft when you have nottouched it for several years.
I'm like, no, this is it, we'rerewriting this thing.
So my daughter kind of taughtme off that legend I'm, I'm
redoing it a bit and, uh, I'mgoing to redo it, I am going to
redo it.
There's some, some things andviews of mine that have changed
over the last five years, and soI'm going to finish that and I
hope to have that done by firstquarter of next year, ready to
(36:28):
go self-publish.
And then the first book of my.
I'm going to do a whole firmfoundation series, which is the
class I teach at Shoreline, andthat's starting this Sunday, if
you are interested.
We're going to be this Sunday.
We're going to do what is theBible Like?
What, this Sunday we're goingto do.
What is the Bible?
Is there this secret Biblerunning around that no one knows
(36:49):
about?
Did they cancel them to see it?
Did they exclude all this?
No, no, no, no yeah.
So if people are interested, Irecommend they come to that
class.
It's at 10 am at Shoreline, butif you just go to Shoreline and
look at groups, it's there.
So I'll be starting my firmfoundations'm.
I want to write a short bookfor each class to kind of go
more and delve more into theclass itself.
And I'm going to start with howto read your Bible, which is
(37:11):
the most popular one I have.
That is where I give peoplepractical tools on how to read
your Bible, not just some pie inthe sky, theology stuff, but
like how can I sit down and readmy Bible and actually get
something out of it?
And people have taken thatclass.
The biggest compliment I get isthey say they read their Bible
almost every day now and theyget something out of it.
Piet Van Waarde (37:28):
So that's great , that's awesome, I love it.
You know, you've reminded me ofanother question I wanted to
ask, which is that one of thethings that can happen when
people get interested intheology, so they start reading
somebody's work even likecredible people, yeah and they
get like on this hobby horse oflike, oh, this is the new thing
I got to be, you know and theyget so dogmatic about stuff.
(37:51):
And how do you like, how do youhelp people remain like humble?
And you know, the scripturesays we see in part.
You know Right, and thescripture says we see in part.
So how do you help peoplebecome not too dogmatic on what
we might call debatable matters?
Art Powell (38:12):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think social media has doneus no service.
Piet Van Waarde (38:18):
In that regard?
Yeah, In this regard.
Art Powell (38:19):
Yeah, it's been horrible actually.
I think wait.
So first, I think humility isimportant.
I think I think humility isimportant.
Right, I think humility isimportant.
I think the second thing is islike I will not create correct
anyone, even a small minor issueIf, if I, if I don't know them
(38:40):
well enough to do it Right, knowthem well enough to do it right
.
In other words, you know, I mayhave some theological debates
online, but I keep it.
You know, I keep it honest andloving and mature.
But I think the way we need toapproach this is you know, is it
heresy?
And there's a very narrowdefinition of heresy in the
Bible.
You know, is it significant?
(39:02):
It's probably not.
Then it's okay, you can debateabout it, but don't take it.
Paul says endless argument.
He says don't get into theseendless arguments.
Right, and I think that's theway to approach it.
Like the gospel is meant to belived, it's not meant to be
argued, right, and if youactually go out and live the
gospel, you're going to actuallyhave more open-minded views
(39:25):
about some of these secondaryand tertiary issues than if you
don't.
And I find that people are morenarrow-minded.
I'm always suspicious in theback of my mind it's like are
you really following Jesus?
Are you living this out?
Because if you're living it out, the most important thing is
like does this person know Jesus?
Are they following Jesus?
Everything else falls second.
You know, I meet people all thetime like Catholics aren't
(39:45):
saved.
I'm like, really, like I knowProtestants, I question their
salvation.
So what does being Catholichave to do about it?
And so I think we need, youknow, I think we need to be
really careful about that, and Ithink part of the problem is
the word belief.
In the Greek and I forget theexact, I'm probably going to
misquote it, so I don't want todo that but in the word, the
(40:05):
word Greek does not mean theWestern word belief.
It doesn't.
In Greek, it means you put yourtrust into it at the point of
like your life.
So Socrates was believed to betrue.
Why Not?
Because they thought he wasright with the Greeks.
They thought he believed he wastrue because he was willing to
die for it.
Yeah, and that's the Greek wordfor belief.
(40:31):
Is you're willing to put yourwhole life into it and believe
it, right?
Not some mental ascension,right?
It's not enough just to say, oh, I believe.
Because when people say Ibelieve in Jesus, I'm thinking
in the West.
First thing in my head is do youmean the Greek word belief,
where you're willing to die forit, or do you mean a mental
ascension?
(40:51):
And I think if you're willing todie for Jesus and follow him
and do whatever he tells you todo, then all these other issues
kind of become.
They get washed out, becauseyou're going to approach
everything with love to startwith and you're called to love
your enemies and you're calledto do good to those who do evil
to you and you're called not tolive according to the way the
world lives.
And I always tell people whenyou master those things, come
back and tell me and then youcan tell me where I'm wrong on
(41:13):
baptism, where I'm wrong on someof this other stuff, right?
So humility needs to be what wedo, and I know Catholics who
know Jesus and I knowProtestants who know Jesus and I
think we need to kind of getoff our little high horse and
stop thinking we know all thisstuff, because I have a friend
(41:33):
of mine.
There's this point inRevelations where it's like
there's silence for 30 minutes,and I'm always like I asked this
friend of mine.
I was like why in Revelationit's not Revelation, revelation?
I always ask him.
Piet Van Waarde (41:43):
I was like why do you think there's silence?
Art Powell (41:49):
in there.
Piet Van Waarde (41:50):
He goes art, because that is what he's going
to correct all of our theology,all right.
Well, this has been a reallygreat conversation.
Where can people find yourstuff?
Art Powell (41:57):
Yeah, Twitter, Saved by Jay, is my handle.
My Facebook same thing Saved byJay.
I have a page called FirmFoundations.
If you just look up FirmFoundations and you see me on
there my AI-generatedyounger-looking self then you
will.
He does have the fedora, sothen you will see that I'm also.
(42:19):
I do have an Instagram accountthat's about to go active.
I'm going to be doing someshorts on theology on Instagram,
so Jennifer Ornstein and acouple others have been
encouraging me and my wife to dothat, so I'm beginning to
follow up on that.
Piet Van Waarde (42:30):
Yep Well, thank you, Art.
It's been great having thisconversation.
I appreciate you taking thetime.
I know you're a really busy guy, but it means so much to me and
I'm sure that our audience gota lot out of what you had to
share.
Art Powell (42:42):
I hope so, and glad you had me.
Piet Van Waarde (42:49):
So thank you for joining us.
We are so grateful that you arepart of our conversation and we
hope that you join us againnext week for another Sidewalk
Conversation.
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