October 30, 2025 • 43 mins
A quiet, steady faith can be just as brave as a dramatic comeback. Preston Jackson recounts growing up in one church, choosing belief through honest doubt, and learning to hold tradition, mystery, and systems in one coherent life.
• growing up known in a single church community
• benefits of deep roots and the cost of being observed
• a chosen belief that led to a real encounter
• the college fork: physics abroad vs youth ministry here
• building systems that serve people and presence
• entrepreneurship, marketing, and creative logistics
• religion vs legalism and the value of tradition
• deconstruction as pruning, not demolition
• multiethnic, evolving expressions of the gospel
• essentials that remain and forms that can change
Please feel free to comment, like, share, and even disagree
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waadre (00:00):
Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversations.
My name is Pete Van Ward, andI'm your host.
And we have another great guestjoining us today.
Back from season one.
We went back when we were doinglive broadcasts.
And so excited to have himback, and I can't wait to
introduce him to you.
I would like to just introduceour conversation today by
(00:22):
sharing a little bit about whatit is that I find to be most
impressive when it comes to thelife of individuals who are
trying to walk out their faith.
And we can talk about a lot ofthings.
We could talk about the lovefactor.
We can talk about the fact thatthey are committed to truth.
But one of the things for methat is most impressive is
(00:42):
somebody who's been at it andstayed at it for a long time.
You know, and the thing thathappens often in Christian
community is you have the greatcomeback story.
So maybe a person startedaround the church, had their
rebellious season, and then theycome back and it's like the
lost sheep that's been found andeverybody's cheering.
And I love those stories.
(01:04):
It's actually my story.
But what I actually find moreimpressive is those po folks who
can say, you know what?
I found the Lord early in life,and I didn't need to go to all
these other places in order todecide that this is what I
wanted to do.
(01:25):
And my guest today is one ofthose guys.
Like he's walked the walk fromearly on and he stayed on the
path.
It's not necessarily the storythat gets the most applause, but
in my mind, it's one of theones that are most impressive
because it takes a real courageto be able to say no to the
things that the world isinviting us to do.
(01:46):
And you save yourself a lot ofgrief when you stay faithful to
the path.
And so that's what I want toencourage those of you who are
watching who, you know, youwonder, like, is my story
important?
Like, have I been okay?
I don't have a great testimony,so to speak.
And I just want to encourageyou that this story, one of the
reasons I want to tell thisstory is because it reminds me
(02:08):
that there's something beautifulabout staying strong from early
on and persisting through.
So that's what our guest hasdone.
And I can't wait to hear haveyou hear his story.
All right, well, I want tofirst of all say thank you to
(02:36):
our sponsor today.
Our sponsor this uh for thisbroadcast is Pickleball Kingdom.
That's actually the place wherewe are doing the recording.
The owner has uh graciously andgenerously made space available
for this studio, and I justwant to acknowledge his
generosity and also promote thePickleball Kingdom activity and
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All right.
Well, without any further ado,let me introduce you to my
guest, Preston Jackson.
(03:40):
Woo! We're gonna give you alittle like a laugh track, not
laugh track, cheer track button.
Preston, uh, you mightrecognize the name because he's
usually the guy on the otherside of the camera.
He's the one that kind of makeseverything look good and sound
good.
And I've kind of been on hiscase a little bit for the last,
(04:01):
I don't know, last season or soto say, hey, it's time for you
to come back.
We gotta, we gotta do anotherinterview.
And uh and so he's agreed to todo that with me.
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.
Preston Jackson (04:12):
Because you've been desperate.
So yeah.
Piet Van Waadre (04:15):
We're like running out of yes.
There's no one, yeah.
Preston's.
Everyone's starting to say no.
I don't know what that's about.
Yeah, I have to be like, I wantto give Preston a compliment
because not only is he doing thepodcast, which is not
necessarily his, you know, mostuh comfortable place, um, but
he's actually wearing a reallycool shirt.
Oh, okay.
(04:36):
Yes.
He's he's trying to impress thehosts with his Amsterdam shirt.
Preston Jackson (04:41):
I can't, you know, normally I'm back there
with my my fabletics and myraggedy t-shirt.
Had it look a little nicertoday.
Piet Van Waadre (04:48):
You're looking very sharp, brother.
All right.
Well, um, as I was saying inthe intro, one of the things I
um respect about you of manythings is that you know you have
been uh a person who was raisedaround the church from very
early on.
Um you and my niece, uhDanielle, I think, were like
buddies back growing up.
Preston Jackson (05:10):
No, no, not so much growing up.
Really?
No.
Well, because she's a few yearsolder than me.
Oh, okay.
You know, she didn't want tohave anything to do with me.
Oh, early on.
Then you became cool and yeah,yeah.
Later when we did when we weredoing Celib Recovery together,
and you know, after we were bothdone being teenagers kind of
deal.
Piet Van Waadre (05:28):
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
Well, you did grow up aroundthe church.
I do know that much.
And uh and your family is allvery active on the church.
Preston Jackson (05:36):
Yeah, enough that I called you Uncle Pete for
the longest time until Ifinally met you.
Yeah.
But no, my family has beenthere.
Uh uh, because my mom I was umsix months old when my parents
started attending Shoreline.
And so then so 26 years later,they're still there.
And you're still there.
We've worked there.
(05:57):
I've spent yep, did my time onstaff.
Almost all of my I've got, youknow, all my five siblings and
us, and both my parents, all ofus have almost been on staff at
some point at Shoreline.
That's so cool.
You know, I think we've got onemore to technically.
My brother, uh you know, he'llhe'll find something in the next
few years.
He's just getting to he's onlyhe's only 15.
(06:17):
So well, he'll find his way.
Technically, and now he can doit.
Piet Van Waadre (06:21):
All right.
So let's let's uh lean intothat a little bit.
I I know on our last podcast,which was a live podcast, so we
don't have any record of itanymore.
And thank the Lord.
Preston Jackson (06:30):
I was right out of COVID.
I, you know, I was like, if Ican't do anything, I'm not gonna
go get a haircut.
So I had a year's worth ofhair.
It was my beer, I didn't cut mybeard because my hair was
growing.
I my mother was absolutelyhorrified.
So as long as that footagenever surfaces, we'll be fine.
Piet Van Waadre (06:49):
Okay, so tell me a little bit, like you know,
some some would say that thatwas a good thing that you were
raised around the church.
I certainly see it as somethingthat you know served you well.
Um, but there's also thedownside.
So let's deal with both ofthose things.
Like what when you look back atbeing raised at the same
church, kind of going to thesame church, being on staff at
the church for a while, likewhat are some of the the
(07:10):
benefits of that experience?
And then maybe what are some ofthe things that kind of you
would go, well, it wasn't allgreat.
Preston Jackson (07:17):
Well, like, you know, I guess like right off
the bat, like being you know, mydad was on staff um and they
key volunteer before that, andlike so he was very involved for
probably a decade.
Um, and he and my mom too wasyou know, she's volunteering and
she was like a preschoolcoordinator, and she was she,
(07:38):
you know, very active in thekids' ministry.
And so people over there knewher, but then my but she's quiet
and reserved.
My dad is um very outgoing andvery uh extroverted and talking
to every single person.
So it's like growing up, it'syou know, oh, you're one of the
Jacksons or you're Anthony'skid.
So and everybody knows whoAnthony is, so everybody knows
(07:59):
who you are.
And so like I didn'tnecessarily grow up a pastor's
kid, but I did grow up kind ofin that same vein of I can't go
anywhere in the church withoutsomebody knowing me, somebody,
you know, always worried aboutgetting report, you know, a
report getting back to myparents about what I was doing,
or um, and some and that hadsome interesting, you know, um
(08:20):
gave me some interesting, likeself made me self-conscious in
some ways about my spiritualdevelopment.
Piet Van Waadre (08:25):
Okay, which is interesting.
Preston Jackson (08:27):
But yeah um that kind of came later.
But I mean like the benefits Iyou know being a part of a
church for so long, um, eventoday, like the connections I
have with people, like a lot ofmy the business that I'm doing
now, like I know it's peopleI've met at Shoreline or I've
known forever, working with um,you know, got you know, I'm
working with the man who was mykids' pastor, kind of like he
(08:49):
ran he did Sunday school for youknow, I think six years of my
life, and like now I'm workingwith him as a colleague, and
that's interesting.
And so like the it's beenlonger I've done been a part of
it, the more I like have theseconnections with people and um
you know, like a community thatI just I also notice that other
people don't have in like yeah,that kind of way, right?
(09:10):
And also just being likeentrenched somewhere for so
long, even the new people, youknow.
Um, because like you said, I weused to work I was working at
Shoreline up until a coupleyears ago, but even now, like
the new staff hires all know whoPreston is because you know
they're that it's the legendlives on, and like I'm so I'm
still there, and they're like,oh yeah, and they're like, Oh,
this is Preston, I've beenhearing so much about you.
(09:30):
And I'm like, it's been twoyears.
What are they still talkingabout?
It's gotta be negative.
All right.
So is there a downside likewhen you think about it?
I mean, I think you know, uhyou give me a lot of credit for
uh my faith walk, and I don'tbut I don't necessarily even
think about it the way you youperceive it, because um, you
(09:52):
know, I am not, you know, I'mstaunchly not an evangelical,
you know this about me.
And um I try to walk back thatpart of my past.
And but and so like in fromthat perspective too, I got some
experiences.
Um, like my um mygreat-grandmother has been
serving at a church for a longtime, she plays the organ, and
it's a um first Christianchurch.
(10:14):
And so like I got to have someexperiences in the first
Christian church growing up,like Christmas or like when we
were out of town on a Sunday.
Yeah, yeah.
But like the biggest thingabout being in one church is
this the only is experiencingthat, like for me, I think big
drawback is only experiencingthat tradition.
Right.
Um and having to intentionallyseek out other traditions.
(10:34):
And even at this point, myunderstanding of other Christian
traditions is more academic andobservational.
And like, you know, I've youknow, I don't have a lot I've
never sat in uh Presbyterianservice or, you know, gotten to
experience, you know, what someof these other denominations
have in a way that I think, youknow, I might love to color out
(10:57):
the side lines, and I have a bigpassion of mine right now is
the different uh is likeunderstanding the impact that
tradition has.
Um and like I guess partlygrowing up in the more modern
evangelical tradition is thatthere are no traditions.
And so it's something that youknow I've had to try, I'm
working through and working onreclaiming in my own spiritual
(11:18):
walk, you know, having what aremy spiritual traditions and or
what traditions do I want, andthen just even understanding
like why I think because I thinktoo a lot of the problem in the
modern church is that there areno traditions, you know, there
are or the tr we have there aretraditions, but you know, people
don't acknowledge them as such.
They all they want to tear downall the traditions.
Yeah, like I'm not traditional.
No, right, but then you thatthat thing that you do that's
(11:39):
not traditional is now yourtradition, right?
Yeah, but there's justsomething so important to
tradition in spiritual formationand the passing of salvation
from generation to generation,right?
Piet Van Waadre (11:49):
Yeah, yeah.
So what like I I want toexplore, uh and I appreciate you
saying or clarifying that, hey,look, I I I still am in my own
discovery process.
I didn't necessarily stay likerigid in the way that you some
people might think.
Um and so you have you've hadyour own like questions and dis
deconstruction of certain ideasand and kind of rebuilding.
(12:12):
Um but essentially I at leastfrom an observational
standpoint, you have essentiallystayed within the path.
Um I mean you're still lookingto Jesus, you're still like uh
worshiping him.
Um you didn't you didn't gointo super rebellion.
Preston Jackson (12:35):
I didn't say no Jesus for the sake of not
because I had to.
That's true.
Piet Van Waadre (12:41):
So what what what do you attribute that to?
Preston Jackson (12:44):
Like what what enabled you to stay relatively
within the the well uh because Imean like since I was 16, I
have never had a doubt thatJesus exists and that he's
somebody worth following.
Um but that was also theculmination of its own spiritual
(13:05):
walk.
Like I think um I think when Iwas like 12 is when I kind of
like can start to like in mymemory pinpoint things, but like
that's when I was like, do Ibelieve in this Jesus thing?
Um, why do I go to church everySunday?
Do I agree with my parents?
Do I hold their religiousbeliefs?
What are religious beliefs?
Um, right?
Yeah, I think it's and that's areally natural thing.
(13:26):
You've always been like thisphilosophic deep thinker.
I can't say I was that deep,but like back then.
But I know I can, you know, Ialso know now it's really
normal.
I mean, I you know, uh likelast time I was on, we just
talked about youth ministrybecause that's what I did for so
long.
Um and like doing youthministry, understanding like the
developmental stages, and likenow I can look back and I'm
(13:47):
like, okay, that's completelynormal developmental.
Like I'm, you know, rebellingagainst I'm you know, in my own
way, looking reevaluatingeverything I believe about life.
And that's that's you know, thething, right?
That's what everybody does.
And but even in that, like Iwas like, okay, do I want to
believe?
Do I not want to believe?
I'm always I have always beenvery analytical and
philosophical and scientific.
Um, I was gonna go and be ascientist, and that's what I
(14:10):
wanted to do from a very youngage.
Um, my mom still talks aboutthe time that I tried to turn
her car or try to figure out howto make her car run on
hydroelectric power when I waslike six.
And so um, like that alsoplayed a factor because I was
like, you know, I've I'vealways, you know, always hearing
the anti intellectual oranti-scientific bias in the
(14:33):
church as well.
Like, you know, like you'reeven from the other side, like
uh the science, you know, theintellectual side of like, oh,
religion does, you know, thetypical kind of like religion
isn't real, we've got science.
Um, and so, you know, in livingin that, and so hearing those
arguments and taking them in andthen evaluating for myself.
But um, it started when I waslike, you know, probably you
know, um 12, 13.
(14:54):
Um, and in that process, youknow, I kind of made a decision
really young.
Um, it was I mean, it wastough.
I I went through times where Ididn't believe, times where I
did believe.
Also, it didn't really matterif I believed or not, because
you know, why?
If it if there's no God, thenit doesn't matter at all, so why
am I struggling?
Um and then um I made adecision at one point, I don't
(15:14):
remember how old I was.
I was probably 14 or 15, and Iwas like, you know what?
Um of everything I know, I'mjust gonna believe.
Um because this seems, youknow, this seems like the best
course of action and a littlebit to hedge my bet.
Just in case just in case, andlike, you know, if God is real,
then at some point I'll find himand I'm gonna choose to believe
(15:37):
until then.
And so it was a reallyconscious choice to like every
day just choose to believe.
Um that culminated into anexperience um a couple of years
later when I was 16, where Ifound myself meeting Jesus, and
from that day on I've never hada doubt.
Um and so I can't, you know,well, I mean, it was this I
(16:01):
can't his classic summer campmoment.
Um, I've been, you know,choosing to believe, waiting,
and I was praying, and I waslike, you know, everybody talks
about the Holy Spirit andfeeling God, and like I've never
felt that, and I want toexperience that, and I God, I
want to feel your spirit, and Iwant to, you know, I want to
feel the presence of the HolySpirit.
(16:21):
And I that through that summercamp, there was a couple of you
know, each night somethingdifferent happened, and I went
through um I experience and Ieven through that I, you know,
look back on it, like Iexperienced kind of three
different aspects of God in thatuntil you know the la I think I
almost the last night orwhatever, but I remember um part
so back to the everybody knowswho my dad is, and my dad also
(16:42):
did youth camp for years andyears and years and years and
years, and I made him keep doingyouth camp when I was in youth
ministry.
And so even like in especiallyin the youth ministry, everybody
knows who Anthony Jackson is,and my leaders knew who he was,
and like so, like it's like itwas a hard thing for me to
explore uh my more spiritualside and like doing things that
(17:04):
I felt like might get reportedback.
Right.
You can't I can't be expressivein worship because I don't want
to talk to my dad about that.
You know, I want to be my ownthing, you know.
Being a child of six to, youknow, I don't I want my own
thing.
Um I don't want to, you know, Idon't want a lot of attention
brought on me either, becauseyou know, and so that was a
barrier, and there were severaltimes when I'd be like in and I
(17:26):
would be in worship and I'd belike, I have a feeling like I
should do something, I shouldtake some action, and I'd be
like, No, I can't do that, youknow.
What if somebody notices?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um and so this that that summercamp I was finally like, you
know what, I don't care.
And from that, in that momentwhen I kind of surrendered, I
had, you know, like a throneroom kind of moment, and I saw
(17:48):
God and saw Jesus and had areally powerful encounter with
that.
I was like, well, you know, nownobody can tell me God doesn't
exist because I've seen him.
Yeah.
And love that.
Piet Van Waadre (18:00):
Yeah.
Now you later, um, in fact,this was I I I think it was
close to when I first came onstaff.
You m you made another decisionum where you were basically
given an opportunity to go to avery prestigious school.
Well, because it the the thisthe academic standards were
(18:26):
really high.
And and you uh I maybe I'mspeaking too glowingly of it,
but you passed with flyingcolors.
Preston Jackson (18:34):
I mean you were I did get in.
I'd actually coincided withthat.
No, okay, it was it was uh withthe summer camp.
And then a different summercamp, because then I had a
different issue of like um andsomething I've completely
unworked since, but you know,and thinking, you know, that I'm
you know looking for God's oneexact plan for my life.
(18:55):
Um, which and like he's gotsomething figured out already.
But I don't have to get intothat.
But um so that was a toughthing because I wasn't just like
praying because I was Igraduate it was I think it was a
couple years before you gotthere because I was it was when
I graduated col high school, Iwas looking to go to college.
UTU was my first choice, Ididn't get in.
Um I didn't want to go to themy the CAP program, so I only I
(19:18):
only applied to two schools, onein Texas and then one in the
UK.
And I got and the UK has alater start date, later
admission.
So I hadn't, you know, school,I had been graduated for a
couple months before I finallygot my acceptance letter.
And so I got that one like theweek before summer camp.
So I went into summer camphaving been accepted to college,
but still like, you know, God,is this what you want me to do?
(19:41):
Like kind of stuck in adecision paralysis, but like
also just like waiting on God.
And I got some really goodadvice um from someone right
before I went to summer camp.
And they're like, sometimes Godtells you what to do, and then
sometimes God leaves it up toyou, and it's your decision to
make.
And I was wrestling with thatidea, and I also in that moment,
I heard, you know, I had areally clear hearing God say,
(20:04):
like, whichever direction youwant to go, I'm gonna go in with
you.
And so it's also at that so Idid get in, and then I was doing
that, but also at that time Ihad started doing celibate
recovery with Danielle and wewere doing the landing, and um,
I was working with middleschoolers and I was you know a
senior, but um my my heartreally broke for them when I was
(20:26):
work I just I was doingchildcare at the time, really.
Even I we were doing celibaterecovery, but I was like the
child care employee.
That's how I was making money.
Um, but we were doing thelessons and I would sit with
them and we talked about theirlives and we would talk about
their struggles, and you know,it was just like you know, my
love for them and then the likethe life that they had to lead,
and also, you know, I just waslike, I want to do this, I want
(20:48):
to sit with students and talk tothem about their life and help
them figure out how to so youput it you put that other thing
all on the side.
So I said, you know, I waslike, God, I want to do this,
and I was like, I'm gonnafollow, I want to go this
direction and kind of oh, gowhere my heart leads.
Because I did, I do, you know,it was it was a hard decision
because I also love school.
Yeah, I love academia, andsomeday I'm still gonna finish
(21:11):
my degree.
But um, I was going, I hadgotten accepted into an honors
physics program, and I was, youknow, because my my goal was um
to study uh quantum mechanicsand get my PhD.
So like there was like thiswhole different track of life,
basically, to go to the UK andstudy abroad and um get my
(21:31):
degree, get my undergrad, get mygraduate degree, do my PhD.
Probably would have ended uplike a coder or something, you
know, because that's really allphysics degrees are good for
these days, but maybe work on areally cool project.
And so, like, there was orbecome a professor.
I did one that's something Idid want to do too.
So get um, so like, yeah, thatwas our whole track one
direction, and who knows if youknow, who knows what would have
happened in that direction too.
Piet Van Waadre (21:53):
But then there was this whole other track of
like doing ministry and like andI and I think the reason I it
stuck with me so much wasbecause you know people talk
about um like I want to do, Iwant to touch people's lives, I
want to do and and I I love it.
I think that's an awesomeaspiration.
But there's also in yoursituation, I thought, well, for
(22:16):
him, it was like a real realeither or choice.
Like you could have beensuccessful at this other thing.
And um, you know, not everybodyhas those opportunities.
And so the fact that you said,you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna
put that on pause, not to saythat you might, yeah, I mean you
may still do it someday.
But the fact that you said, I II I love these kids, I want to
(22:40):
do ministry, I'm willing to laythat down.
I just thought it was so socool, so impressive.
Preston Jackson (22:46):
Loved it.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waadre (22:47):
Nice.
Preston Jackson (22:49):
It was not the most selfless choice.
It was something that, youknow, it was it was an easy
decision to make because that'ssomething I loved and wanted to
do.
And you know, I wasn't like itwasn't all pious and like I'm
gonna I'm gonna put aside mycares and my desires for the
work of the gospel.
Piet Van Waadre (23:05):
It was uh Oh yes, it was.
That's the that's the image I'mholding on to.
Preston Jackson (23:10):
It was I love this is where I want to be right
now.
Piet Van Waadre (23:13):
Uh well I I think there's something to that
too.
You know, I think the Lord doeslike I love how you said it.
I think the Lord does uh oftengive us the opportunity to say,
well, is this what you'reexcited about?
Like, do you love this?
Because I'll go with you.
Yeah.
I mean, unless it's like evil.
Preston Jackson (23:29):
You know, we talk about walking that back.
I am more and I'm moreembracing of that idea now that
like even before, you know, wedon't as it's going down a
rabbit hole, but even beforelike where does God want us to
be, I more believe that whereverwe go, yeah, I have a deeper
understanding of that idea ofwherever we go, God is with us.
And a primary belief in that,like, yeah, first he's with us
(23:52):
and then he'll make it work.
And then if we're willing tolisten, he'll guide us to places
that he has designs or that aregood for us, right?
Yeah.
But there's like uh I think youknow, we we make it too much
either or in my opinion.
You know, if you go off on thewild side, God's still with you.
Amen.
Right?
Yeah, he is.
Piet Van Waadre (24:13):
That's what that's all about.
Um all right, so let's uh youwhat are you doing now?
Like you're you're likeentrepreneuring now, you you you
gotta you help me and help me.
Preston Jackson (24:24):
I'm still working on explaining that to
people and trying to get it downto my like 60 second small
talk.
Uh-huh.
Uh, because there's so manythings I'm doing.
I've been working on thepodcast with you, been um doing
you know my own consulting workand like marketing.
That's a weird shift that Inever expected when you know,
talk about like directions lifecould have gone, you know, when
(24:45):
I was 18, I would never haveimagined that I would be um
doing marketing, um, or muchless like running and kind of
uh, you know, a two-man agencyand doing consulting work with
people.
Um, you know, because like I'vegot clients who are, you know,
across I've got clients acrossacross the globe, and I'm like
working with people in all theirplaces, and I'm like, what do I
(25:07):
know about running an in?
Uh but here I am advisingpeople on how to like do their
marketing.
Why who I would never haveguessed it.
So like you know, I domarketing consulting, and then
um, you know, I've c recentlyhad an opportunity to start
another company, a tech company,and we're working on um with
you know, we we're kind of likeuh see this is where it gets
complicated, and I guess in oneminute, we're a uh we're a
(25:30):
vendor of my company's a vendorof products, and so we're
working with a couple of we'reworking on getting a couple
products launched and um intoour retail network because I
have a couple of a part I have acouple partners who hire like
an extensive network, and that'salso, you know, that's another
thing that's kind of aculmination of my time at
Shoreline Um and myrelationships there.
But like um, so you know, I'vegot several different things
(25:53):
going.
I've got another, um, I s youknow, there's another startup
I've been working with as well,doing marketing with um that's
kind of you know, still waitingto get its feet under it, and so
and that's a completelydifferent world.
And I, you know, I was workingon a docuseries this summer and
still working on closing outthat project and you know, just
kind of doing a little bit ofeverything, partly to make
(26:13):
money, partly to do you see likea common thread between them
all that kind of bring themtogether for you?
Piet Van Waadre (26:19):
Um like what makes them attractive for you?
What makes them attractive forme?
Preston Jackson (26:23):
Um I just you know, I like I like new things.
I'm always been a person wholikes change.
I like to change thingsregularly.
I don't like things to say thesame.
Um I loved when we would getnew desk assignments at school
because I liked to move and bein a different part of the room.
Um I hated classrooms where wewere in the same place the whole
(26:44):
year.
Um and like that's just who Iam.
And so part of it is thenovelty of it and getting to
work on new projects and gettingto do new different different
things.
Like the film project was new,and I have some experience.
You know, I've got experiencedoing film stuff.
I mean, I that's what I do foryou.
And I did that shoreline too,but like it's just undertaking a
documentary.
I've never done that.
(27:04):
Um, and but also like I alsolike um I also just you know
really enjoy business in a waythat I didn't know I did, you
know, 10 years ago.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and I like putting themtogether and like organizing
them, and I love spreadsheetsand I like doing budget
projections.
Piet Van Waadre (27:22):
You did keep us like I remember at Shoreline,
you were like the master ofschedules and processes and
systems.
Preston Jackson (27:30):
I love processes and systems and
logistics.
It's yeah that I knew I Ilearned I was really good at
from an early age.
I because did you know I youprobably don't know this?
I when I was 12, I wascoordinating VBS at Shoreline.
Um I was like the assistantcoordinator at that time.
There was like me and then theadult who would be the the
actual enforcer, but like I wasplanning everything, doing
(27:52):
routes and schedules, and like Iso I didn't like I that's you
know something I learned at areally young age, it's something
I'm good at um and I like to doand like is you know, getting
to work with startups like thistoo is something you know,
there's a lot to figure outlogistically, and you know,
making it's a puzzle, it's fun,I enjoy it a lot.
Piet Van Waadre (28:10):
You're good at it, you really are good at it.
So um now as you look out, likeI'm I I love you know talking
to people who are in differentseasons of life than I am.
And so you you you know, you'rea young guy, you're still
looking at a lot of your lifeahead of you.
Um when you think about what'shappening in the church and and
(28:31):
you know what it looks like forthe this quote unquote next
generation, what are some of thethings that you're like excited
about, you're optimistic about,and then maybe some of the
things that you're like, uh Idon't know.
Preston Jackson (28:45):
Oh man, how controversial do you want me to
go, Pete?
You know, because uh we can gothere.
The things that excite me, uh Imean, I think the American
church has been stuck for areally long time.
And you know, I'manti-evangelical in all many
(29:07):
ways, and so there's a lot ofthings I think that we've been
doing in the last 50 years thatare not um advantageous for the
gospel.
Um and part, but like thisquestion has this question is
one that sent me down this likediscovery and learning about
traditions and trying tounderstand too, like um, and one
of the things I'm unravelingfrom my past is like this idea
(29:29):
of the right way to worship orthe right way to spread the
gospel, or what's the the realchurch?
I you know, we hear that Ithink we hear we're hearing a
lot that of that in 2025.
But what's the real church, youknow, or whether it's the
Protestants or like Catholicsdon't know what they're talking
about, or Catholics who are likeProtestants know what they're
talking about, or whatever.
Um, and so like even to thatquestion, and trying to peel
(29:51):
apart theologically andphilosophically and
experientially, like, what ischurch and like why does church?
church and what is the gospeland why does the gospel and how
do people spread it and w whatwhy is it is it the same or is
it different than it was 2000years ago and should we be doing
church like they you knowthere's a rule there was this
(30:13):
kind of call to let's do churchlike the apostles did it and
like is that you know I was likethat sounds like a lot a good
goal but then I like sat with itand I was like should we do
church that way?
Like is there a reason?
Is there a is it bad that we dochurch the way we do church?
And I say I'm anti-evangelicaland but I do like the way we do
church.
You know I it's what I grew upin I enjoy it.
I'm not like turn down thelights and get get that fog
(30:36):
machine out of there.
I think there's space for it.
Piet Van Waadre (30:39):
And um and so like now when you say
anti-evangelical for those whomay not be familiar with the
term because I think I I we'vewe've had enough conversations
about it or I think I know whereyou're headed with that but
just like unpack that a littlebit.
What what what do you mean bythat?
Preston Jackson (30:54):
Like the event you there's so much to unpack
there but just like the uh youknow the general evangelical
doctrine and the evangelical youknow there's the evangelical
church which kind of arose inthe last 70 years um the modern
evangelical movement rightthere's been there's deeper
roots to it but it's kind ofamalgamation of the Baptist
(31:15):
tradition and the uh Pentecostaltradition with its charismatic
charismatic elements and it'salso it's got its deep dogmatic
and doctrinal elements too andthis kind of more modern and
it's the root of thisnon-denominational movement too
right and that was started withlike Billy Graham and you know
goes forth in today and you knowthe biggest churches in America
today are allnon-denominationals right and so
(31:37):
this I this kind of nonnon-movement but there's just
there's some key um beyond thethere's some key dogmas I would
call them beyond doctrine notdoctrines because there's some
sh there's definitely there'sseparate this is a deep
conversation deep but separatingyou know the levels of doctrine
but I would I'll I'll callthese doctrines dogmas
(31:58):
separating out the there's somecertain specific dogmas to the
evangelical belief and um thereare some also some certain
practices like the anti-practicepractice of tearing down
tradition and being like wedon't need to do it that way or
just because or because it is anentrenched position like um you
know it's that somehow it'swrong like it's too rigid and
(32:21):
too religious.
And you know I've heard that uma lot in my life about you know
being anti-religious.
You know we're we f I'm it Iwould I'm a Jesus follower but
I'm anti-religious and I onepoint in my life I would have I
associated with that idea likeyou know it's it's a
relationship right it's thatt-shirt relationship over
religion.
But now I'm definitely thinkingI lean more religion in my
(32:43):
ideas and I think that there's athere's a strong place for
religion.
Piet Van Waadre (32:46):
And so like even being part of my
anti-evangelical is rejectingthat idea that religion is a bad
thing or like there's thatthere is that there you know I
don't like um what's the wordwhat's the word I don't like
come on Pete you preach thisbefore you know what I'm talking
about I don't like the thewhat's the rigid the the the dog
(33:08):
uh the the legalism I don'tlove legalism yeah but I do like
structured religious religionand tradition well and the
reason I'm I'm kind of pressingyou on it because on one hand
you are a like systems processguy that you appreciate order
and you appreciate like claritybut on the other hand you I I
(33:32):
when I hear you talk aboutyou're like but I also love
mystery and I think we don'thave enough appreciation for
mystery or we don't have enoughappreciation for history and I
feel like we haven't eventouched on that conversation.
Preston Jackson (33:45):
So it's kind of like an interesting mix that
you have of that and and andthat's why I've asked you to
it's not it's not controversialto me because I feel like you're
you're like you you found a wayto integrate it all but I I've
walked back those things yeahand like it is I do agree it's
interesting because umespecially with you know the
church tradition I was raised inis and you know but then also
(34:10):
like I am very rigid in mythinking but at the same time
like my earliest religiousexperiences my my transformative
moment my spiritual moments aresteeped in that mystery and
that mysticism of like how can Ibe standing in this room it as
in a like in the middle of theforest in South Texas but I'm
(34:34):
also standing you know next toJesus and like you know these
things that I you know theseweird moments in my life and
it's lear it's learned too and Ithink is what I'm trying to say
and like um it's something I'vehad to evaluate because I've
also had some other reallyinteresting moments um just you
know with God and in weirdplaces like well not so weird
(34:57):
it's pretty like I guess umpretty cliche I was standing on
the top of a hill in Ireland andI had a vision and of what God
was doing and like and that's aweird mystical moment right um
and so like you know having toreconcile having weird mystical
moments but also being very youknow um scientific in my own
(35:18):
approach to life and like analand not analyzing and so having
to figuring out how to like makethose things work inside myself
has been a challenge.
But it's also I think it doesit has produced something weird.
Piet Van Waadre (35:28):
I love it.
I think it's beautiful and Iappreciate the way that you're
so thoughtful about thesematters and that that you really
have carved out a path for youthat uh as I have encountered
you very authentic.
You know it's just like this islike I'm not necessarily trying
to fit into any box and I'm notreally trying to make anybody
happy.
Not that I'm trying to be youknow purposefully offensive
(35:49):
either.
It's just like I'm trying toI'm trying to figure it out and
I'm trying to be authentic aboutwhat I know and believe.
And um and it's one of thereasons I feel like uh you know
you have something to say tothis generation.
Preston Jackson (36:01):
Okay.
Where do we because we went offtrack there.
So that's what I told you atthe beginning we can do that.
Yeah you did you took me wewent and we had I had explained
some anti-evangelicism we'retalking about the future of the
church.
No I think I'm you know thiswas going to be controversial.
I think that in some ways thechurch is um imploding and I
(36:24):
think that's a good thing.
Um the modern church I thinkthe the American church while I
have been examining you knowdifferent ways of understanding
what church is but I think thatthere is some collapse to the
way we do church and to those tothe non-existent traditions.
And maybe that's what's part ofthe problem is there are no
traditions to hold to and that'scaught that's creating some
(36:45):
collapse.
But then you know COVIDdefinitely helped do it um and
the political climate isdefinitely helping do it or at
least pull people apart andpulling the church apart.
And I think that that while isa painful thing and it's causing
a lot of strife and it's gonnacause a lot of hurt to people I
think it's also a good thing inthat it's causing people to
(37:08):
re-examine their beliefs and youknow because I'm just I'm also
just one piece of this wholedeconstruction movement that
kind of began even right aroundthe same time I was like you
know you know the reason I amthe way I am today is because I
started reading the Bible andunderstanding it.
And I learned how to read myBible and it caused me to to um
(37:30):
re-examine lots of things that Ihad thought I knew about life
and about the Bible andunderstand the Bible and also
trying to like reconcile partsof the Bible that I've read with
my understanding of who God is.
And so like all of those thingslike I or just have been
working and doing things and Ithink that that is I think
that's something that's reallygood for the church.
(37:50):
The American church the globalchurch to think about doing
things differently because Ithink that the church I think in
the history of the church toothe worst times for the church
has been when it's been verystaunchly too staunchly in its
traditions right too tooentrenched it does not seem like
we go back before I gave a um Igave a sermon at a youth camp
(38:13):
one time and I was probablyreally informed by this topic
but about the balance of spiritand truth and about the balance
of the mystical and the balanceof the knowing and the the
present reality and like findingthat you know walking in the
middle line and that's where thechurch needs to be right it
needs to be it's not toocharismatic it's not too
dogmatic it's not too it's nottoo apart from the world it's
(38:36):
not I hate that's a bad onebecause I don't even believe
that there's no such thing astoo close to the world because
we are the we are entrenched init and we should be and like
that's one of my thoughts too islike I think that we when the
church gets stuck in theseplaces where people think they
know what it should be and Ithink that the gospel itself is
this living breathing thingspirit that goes forth and it in
(38:59):
itself it this is acontroversial idea.
Some people might take offenseum but that the gospel it's so
far the gospel itself thebecause like the gospel comes in
and creates transformationwithin people right and it
changes who we are but I thinkthat also in the same way that
the gospel changes us um andtakes away some of the worst
(39:20):
parts of you know smooth out theworst parts of our edges um we
change the gospel and I thinkthat's even more true on like
because you know the Bibledoesn't say you a lot it says
y'all a lot right it's acommunity driven thing and like
in the community sense like thelike the gospel comes in and
transforms culture and nationand groups of people and it
(39:40):
changes them from what they wereinto something different.
But it doesn't completely takeit isn't like a it's not a force
that removes who those peoplewere right it's not like you
know there's this there was thismovement I know from the 90s
and the 2000s of like this likeeveryone should like if the
whole like the preachingpreachers would be like if
everybody followed Jesus wewould be all the same and it
(40:02):
would be like and like there's acertain way to have culture and
there's a certain way to liveyour life and there's a certain
way to do things and the gospelbrings about this monoethnic
culture thing.
And I don't believe that Ithink that the I think that
there's the Bible clearly paintsa picture of a multi-ethnic
multicultural amalgamation ofpeople coming to the temple of
(40:24):
God and then and in the same waythat by the gospel comes in
changes a group of people but isalso changed by who those
people are and when it goesforth again to the next group of
people it is inherentlydifferent in some ways.
And then it goes forth and likethe church in itself is ever
evolving in this idea of whatthe gospel does and how the
people who last held the gospeltook it forward because I think
(40:48):
it also isn't something thatexists independently of who we
are.
It's something that we hand toeach other and you know we
accept the salvation togetherright it's a you know these
things about me but you knowit's something that we all have
to do together.
Piet Van Waadre (41:03):
Well and I think what part of what I think
you're touching on is thetension of like there are
certain things about the faiththat remain consistent and then
there are certain things thatare always involving like the
Lord you know prophet said I'mI'm doing a new thing which he's
he's always doing a new thing.
So it's it's that figuring outlike what's the essential like
(41:25):
what do I need to continueholding on to regardless of what
happens in the culture.
And then what what where isthere room for creativity?
Where's there room for a newexpression?
And that's and you know we s wecan talk about it
philosophically but in practicethat's really hard to sort out
and uh but I think we have tohold the tension for sure.
Preston Jackson (41:46):
And I think it's in that I think there's a
there's a looseness that we Ithink there's a looseness we
should approach it with like weshouldn't be too rigid in those
things.
And I know there's and but thisthat's that rigid that's that
rigidity in those things thatdoesn't allow the gospel to do
those things and at some pointthat thing breaks and we it's
historically we see it happenand something new comes out of
it.
And because the gospel isn'tstopped right God doesn't stop
(42:11):
moving and then there issalvation to a new group of
people and it looks differentafterwards.
And sometimes we chase afterthat and we probably should be
chasing something that lookscompletely different than what
happened before.
Because you know God did sayI'm gonna do a new thing.
Piet Van Waadre (42:27):
Well uh I have loved this conversation thank
you for being willing to move onthe other side of the camera
and philosophize with me for abit.
It's great to have you as aguest and I want to say thank
you to you all for joining usfor this conversation.
And we are going to like givelike there is a lot of things
that we talked about today thatwe want to give you an
(42:49):
opportunity to interact with aswell.
And so if there are questionsthat come up as a result of what
you've seen and heard we'd loveto interact with that.
And so we always try and leavethose uh opportunities in the
notes uh so wherever you'reseeing this please feel free to
comment like share and uh andand even disagree like that's
okay too so thank you forjoining us and we hope to see
(43:12):
you next week for anothersidewalk conversation
Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversations.
My name is Pete Van Ward, andI'm your host.
And we have another great guestjoining us today.
Back from season one.
We went back when we were doinglive broadcasts.
And so excited to have himback, and I can't wait to
introduce him to you.
I would like to just introduceour conversation today by
(00:22):
sharing a little bit about whatit is that I find to be most
impressive when it comes to thelife of individuals who are
trying to walk out their faith.
And we can talk about a lot ofthings.
We could talk about the lovefactor.
We can talk about the fact thatthey are committed to truth.
But one of the things for methat is most impressive is
(00:42):
somebody who's been at it andstayed at it for a long time.
You know, and the thing thathappens often in Christian
community is you have the greatcomeback story.
So maybe a person startedaround the church, had their
rebellious season, and then theycome back and it's like the
lost sheep that's been found andeverybody's cheering.
And I love those stories.
(01:04):
It's actually my story.
But what I actually find moreimpressive is those po folks who
can say, you know what?
I found the Lord early in life,and I didn't need to go to all
these other places in order todecide that this is what I
wanted to do.
(01:25):
And my guest today is one ofthose guys.
Like he's walked the walk fromearly on and he stayed on the
path.
It's not necessarily the storythat gets the most applause, but
in my mind, it's one of theones that are most impressive
because it takes a real courageto be able to say no to the
things that the world isinviting us to do.
(01:46):
And you save yourself a lot ofgrief when you stay faithful to
the path.
And so that's what I want toencourage those of you who are
watching who, you know, youwonder, like, is my story
important?
Like, have I been okay?
I don't have a great testimony,so to speak.
And I just want to encourageyou that this story, one of the
reasons I want to tell thisstory is because it reminds me
(02:08):
that there's something beautifulabout staying strong from early
on and persisting through.
So that's what our guest hasdone.
And I can't wait to hear haveyou hear his story.
All right, well, I want tofirst of all say thank you to
(02:36):
our sponsor today.
Our sponsor this uh for thisbroadcast is Pickleball Kingdom.
That's actually the place wherewe are doing the recording.
The owner has uh graciously andgenerously made space available
for this studio, and I justwant to acknowledge his
generosity and also promote thePickleball Kingdom activity and
(02:59):
facility.
They have beautiful courtshere.
It's located in Pflugerville.
And so if you are in the Austinarea and you are looking to
either you know play and learnor play and grow in your game,
this is the place to do it.
Pickleball Kingdom 1900 EastHoward Lane.
(03:20):
You gotta come and see it.
It's a beautiful space withgreat courts and a great
community.
So thank you, Jared, for yoursponsorship.
And if you're looking to checkout Pickleball, this would be
the place to do it.
All right.
Well, without any further ado,let me introduce you to my
guest, Preston Jackson.
(03:40):
Woo! We're gonna give you alittle like a laugh track, not
laugh track, cheer track button.
Preston, uh, you mightrecognize the name because he's
usually the guy on the otherside of the camera.
He's the one that kind of makeseverything look good and sound
good.
And I've kind of been on hiscase a little bit for the last,
(04:01):
I don't know, last season or soto say, hey, it's time for you
to come back.
We gotta, we gotta do anotherinterview.
And uh and so he's agreed to todo that with me.
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.
Preston Jackson (04:12):
Because you've been desperate.
So yeah.
Piet Van Waadre (04:15):
We're like running out of yes.
There's no one, yeah.
Preston's.
Everyone's starting to say no.
I don't know what that's about.
Yeah, I have to be like, I wantto give Preston a compliment
because not only is he doing thepodcast, which is not
necessarily his, you know, mostuh comfortable place, um, but
he's actually wearing a reallycool shirt.
Oh, okay.
(04:36):
Yes.
He's he's trying to impress thehosts with his Amsterdam shirt.
Preston Jackson (04:41):
I can't, you know, normally I'm back there
with my my fabletics and myraggedy t-shirt.
Had it look a little nicertoday.
Piet Van Waadre (04:48):
You're looking very sharp, brother.
All right.
Well, um, as I was saying inthe intro, one of the things I
um respect about you of manythings is that you know you have
been uh a person who was raisedaround the church from very
early on.
Um you and my niece, uhDanielle, I think, were like
buddies back growing up.
Preston Jackson (05:10):
No, no, not so much growing up.
Really?
No.
Well, because she's a few yearsolder than me.
Oh, okay.
You know, she didn't want tohave anything to do with me.
Oh, early on.
Then you became cool and yeah,yeah.
Later when we did when we weredoing Celib Recovery together,
and you know, after we were bothdone being teenagers kind of
deal.
Piet Van Waadre (05:28):
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
Well, you did grow up aroundthe church.
I do know that much.
And uh and your family is allvery active on the church.
Preston Jackson (05:36):
Yeah, enough that I called you Uncle Pete for
the longest time until Ifinally met you.
Yeah.
But no, my family has beenthere.
Uh uh, because my mom I was umsix months old when my parents
started attending Shoreline.
And so then so 26 years later,they're still there.
And you're still there.
We've worked there.
(05:57):
I've spent yep, did my time onstaff.
Almost all of my I've got, youknow, all my five siblings and
us, and both my parents, all ofus have almost been on staff at
some point at Shoreline.
That's so cool.
You know, I think we've got onemore to technically.
My brother, uh you know, he'llhe'll find something in the next
few years.
He's just getting to he's onlyhe's only 15.
(06:17):
So well, he'll find his way.
Technically, and now he can doit.
Piet Van Waadre (06:21):
All right.
So let's let's uh lean intothat a little bit.
I I know on our last podcast,which was a live podcast, so we
don't have any record of itanymore.
And thank the Lord.
Preston Jackson (06:30):
I was right out of COVID.
I, you know, I was like, if Ican't do anything, I'm not gonna
go get a haircut.
So I had a year's worth ofhair.
It was my beer, I didn't cut mybeard because my hair was
growing.
I my mother was absolutelyhorrified.
So as long as that footagenever surfaces, we'll be fine.
Piet Van Waadre (06:49):
Okay, so tell me a little bit, like you know,
some some would say that thatwas a good thing that you were
raised around the church.
I certainly see it as somethingthat you know served you well.
Um, but there's also thedownside.
So let's deal with both ofthose things.
Like what when you look back atbeing raised at the same
church, kind of going to thesame church, being on staff at
the church for a while, likewhat are some of the the
(07:10):
benefits of that experience?
And then maybe what are some ofthe things that kind of you
would go, well, it wasn't allgreat.
Preston Jackson (07:17):
Well, like, you know, I guess like right off
the bat, like being you know, mydad was on staff um and they
key volunteer before that, andlike so he was very involved for
probably a decade.
Um, and he and my mom too wasyou know, she's volunteering and
she was like a preschoolcoordinator, and she was she,
(07:38):
you know, very active in thekids' ministry.
And so people over there knewher, but then my but she's quiet
and reserved.
My dad is um very outgoing andvery uh extroverted and talking
to every single person.
So it's like growing up, it'syou know, oh, you're one of the
Jacksons or you're Anthony'skid.
So and everybody knows whoAnthony is, so everybody knows
(07:59):
who you are.
And so like I didn'tnecessarily grow up a pastor's
kid, but I did grow up kind ofin that same vein of I can't go
anywhere in the church withoutsomebody knowing me, somebody,
you know, always worried aboutgetting report, you know, a
report getting back to myparents about what I was doing,
or um, and some and that hadsome interesting, you know, um
(08:20):
gave me some interesting, likeself made me self-conscious in
some ways about my spiritualdevelopment.
Piet Van Waadre (08:25):
Okay, which is interesting.
Preston Jackson (08:27):
But yeah um that kind of came later.
But I mean like the benefits Iyou know being a part of a
church for so long, um, eventoday, like the connections I
have with people, like a lot ofmy the business that I'm doing
now, like I know it's peopleI've met at Shoreline or I've
known forever, working with um,you know, got you know, I'm
working with the man who was mykids' pastor, kind of like he
(08:49):
ran he did Sunday school for youknow, I think six years of my
life, and like now I'm workingwith him as a colleague, and
that's interesting.
And so like the it's beenlonger I've done been a part of
it, the more I like have theseconnections with people and um
you know, like a community thatI just I also notice that other
people don't have in like yeah,that kind of way, right?
(09:10):
And also just being likeentrenched somewhere for so
long, even the new people, youknow.
Um, because like you said, I weused to work I was working at
Shoreline up until a coupleyears ago, but even now, like
the new staff hires all know whoPreston is because you know
they're that it's the legendlives on, and like I'm so I'm
still there, and they're like,oh yeah, and they're like, Oh,
this is Preston, I've beenhearing so much about you.
(09:30):
And I'm like, it's been twoyears.
What are they still talkingabout?
It's gotta be negative.
All right.
So is there a downside likewhen you think about it?
I mean, I think you know, uhyou give me a lot of credit for
uh my faith walk, and I don'tbut I don't necessarily even
think about it the way you youperceive it, because um, you
(09:52):
know, I am not, you know, I'mstaunchly not an evangelical,
you know this about me.
And um I try to walk back thatpart of my past.
And but and so like in fromthat perspective too, I got some
experiences.
Um, like my um mygreat-grandmother has been
serving at a church for a longtime, she plays the organ, and
it's a um first Christianchurch.
(10:14):
And so like I got to have someexperiences in the first
Christian church growing up,like Christmas or like when we
were out of town on a Sunday.
Yeah, yeah.
But like the biggest thingabout being in one church is
this the only is experiencingthat, like for me, I think big
drawback is only experiencingthat tradition.
Right.
Um and having to intentionallyseek out other traditions.
(10:34):
And even at this point, myunderstanding of other Christian
traditions is more academic andobservational.
And like, you know, I've youknow, I don't have a lot I've
never sat in uh Presbyterianservice or, you know, gotten to
experience, you know, what someof these other denominations
have in a way that I think, youknow, I might love to color out
(10:57):
the side lines, and I have a bigpassion of mine right now is
the different uh is likeunderstanding the impact that
tradition has.
Um and like I guess partlygrowing up in the more modern
evangelical tradition is thatthere are no traditions.
And so it's something that youknow I've had to try, I'm
working through and working onreclaiming in my own spiritual
(11:18):
walk, you know, having what aremy spiritual traditions and or
what traditions do I want, andthen just even understanding
like why I think because I thinktoo a lot of the problem in the
modern church is that there areno traditions, you know, there
are or the tr we have there aretraditions, but you know, people
don't acknowledge them as such.
They all they want to tear downall the traditions.
Yeah, like I'm not traditional.
No, right, but then you thatthat thing that you do that's
(11:39):
not traditional is now yourtradition, right?
Yeah, but there's justsomething so important to
tradition in spiritual formationand the passing of salvation
from generation to generation,right?
Piet Van Waadre (11:49):
Yeah, yeah.
So what like I I want toexplore, uh and I appreciate you
saying or clarifying that, hey,look, I I I still am in my own
discovery process.
I didn't necessarily stay likerigid in the way that you some
people might think.
Um and so you have you've hadyour own like questions and dis
deconstruction of certain ideasand and kind of rebuilding.
(12:12):
Um but essentially I at leastfrom an observational
standpoint, you have essentiallystayed within the path.
Um I mean you're still lookingto Jesus, you're still like uh
worshiping him.
Um you didn't you didn't gointo super rebellion.
Preston Jackson (12:35):
I didn't say no Jesus for the sake of not
because I had to.
That's true.
Piet Van Waadre (12:41):
So what what what do you attribute that to?
Preston Jackson (12:44):
Like what what enabled you to stay relatively
within the the well uh because Imean like since I was 16, I
have never had a doubt thatJesus exists and that he's
somebody worth following.
Um but that was also theculmination of its own spiritual
(13:05):
walk.
Like I think um I think when Iwas like 12 is when I kind of
like can start to like in mymemory pinpoint things, but like
that's when I was like, do Ibelieve in this Jesus thing?
Um, why do I go to church everySunday?
Do I agree with my parents?
Do I hold their religiousbeliefs?
What are religious beliefs?
Um, right?
Yeah, I think it's and that's areally natural thing.
(13:26):
You've always been like thisphilosophic deep thinker.
I can't say I was that deep,but like back then.
But I know I can, you know, Ialso know now it's really
normal.
I mean, I you know, uh likelast time I was on, we just
talked about youth ministrybecause that's what I did for so
long.
Um and like doing youthministry, understanding like the
developmental stages, and likenow I can look back and I'm
(13:47):
like, okay, that's completelynormal developmental.
Like I'm, you know, rebellingagainst I'm you know, in my own
way, looking reevaluatingeverything I believe about life.
And that's that's you know, thething, right?
That's what everybody does.
And but even in that, like Iwas like, okay, do I want to
believe?
Do I not want to believe?
I'm always I have always beenvery analytical and
philosophical and scientific.
Um, I was gonna go and be ascientist, and that's what I
(14:10):
wanted to do from a very youngage.
Um, my mom still talks aboutthe time that I tried to turn
her car or try to figure out howto make her car run on
hydroelectric power when I waslike six.
And so um, like that alsoplayed a factor because I was
like, you know, I've I'vealways, you know, always hearing
the anti intellectual oranti-scientific bias in the
(14:33):
church as well.
Like, you know, like you'reeven from the other side, like
uh the science, you know, theintellectual side of like, oh,
religion does, you know, thetypical kind of like religion
isn't real, we've got science.
Um, and so, you know, in livingin that, and so hearing those
arguments and taking them in andthen evaluating for myself.
But um, it started when I waslike, you know, probably you
know, um 12, 13.
(14:54):
Um, and in that process, youknow, I kind of made a decision
really young.
Um, it was I mean, it wastough.
I I went through times where Ididn't believe, times where I
did believe.
Also, it didn't really matterif I believed or not, because
you know, why?
If it if there's no God, thenit doesn't matter at all, so why
am I struggling?
Um and then um I made adecision at one point, I don't
(15:14):
remember how old I was.
I was probably 14 or 15, and Iwas like, you know what?
Um of everything I know, I'mjust gonna believe.
Um because this seems, youknow, this seems like the best
course of action and a littlebit to hedge my bet.
Just in case just in case, andlike, you know, if God is real,
then at some point I'll find himand I'm gonna choose to believe
(15:37):
until then.
And so it was a reallyconscious choice to like every
day just choose to believe.
Um that culminated into anexperience um a couple of years
later when I was 16, where Ifound myself meeting Jesus, and
from that day on I've never hada doubt.
Um and so I can't, you know,well, I mean, it was this I
(16:01):
can't his classic summer campmoment.
Um, I've been, you know,choosing to believe, waiting,
and I was praying, and I waslike, you know, everybody talks
about the Holy Spirit andfeeling God, and like I've never
felt that, and I want toexperience that, and I God, I
want to feel your spirit, and Iwant to, you know, I want to
feel the presence of the HolySpirit.
(16:21):
And I that through that summercamp, there was a couple of you
know, each night somethingdifferent happened, and I went
through um I experience and Ieven through that I, you know,
look back on it, like Iexperienced kind of three
different aspects of God in thatuntil you know the la I think I
almost the last night orwhatever, but I remember um part
so back to the everybody knowswho my dad is, and my dad also
(16:42):
did youth camp for years andyears and years and years and
years, and I made him keep doingyouth camp when I was in youth
ministry.
And so even like in especiallyin the youth ministry, everybody
knows who Anthony Jackson is,and my leaders knew who he was,
and like so, like it's like itwas a hard thing for me to
explore uh my more spiritualside and like doing things that
(17:04):
I felt like might get reportedback.
Right.
You can't I can't be expressivein worship because I don't want
to talk to my dad about that.
You know, I want to be my ownthing, you know.
Being a child of six to, youknow, I don't I want my own
thing.
Um I don't want to, you know, Idon't want a lot of attention
brought on me either, becauseyou know, and so that was a
barrier, and there were severaltimes when I'd be like in and I
(17:26):
would be in worship and I'd belike, I have a feeling like I
should do something, I shouldtake some action, and I'd be
like, No, I can't do that, youknow.
What if somebody notices?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um and so this that that summercamp I was finally like, you
know what, I don't care.
And from that, in that momentwhen I kind of surrendered, I
had, you know, like a throneroom kind of moment, and I saw
(17:48):
God and saw Jesus and had areally powerful encounter with
that.
I was like, well, you know, nownobody can tell me God doesn't
exist because I've seen him.
Yeah.
And love that.
Piet Van Waadre (18:00):
Yeah.
Now you later, um, in fact,this was I I I think it was
close to when I first came onstaff.
You m you made another decisionum where you were basically
given an opportunity to go to avery prestigious school.
Well, because it the the thisthe academic standards were
(18:26):
really high.
And and you uh I maybe I'mspeaking too glowingly of it,
but you passed with flyingcolors.
Preston Jackson (18:34):
I mean you were I did get in.
I'd actually coincided withthat.
No, okay, it was it was uh withthe summer camp.
And then a different summercamp, because then I had a
different issue of like um andsomething I've completely
unworked since, but you know,and thinking, you know, that I'm
you know looking for God's oneexact plan for my life.
(18:55):
Um, which and like he's gotsomething figured out already.
But I don't have to get intothat.
But um so that was a toughthing because I wasn't just like
praying because I was Igraduate it was I think it was a
couple years before you gotthere because I was it was when
I graduated col high school, Iwas looking to go to college.
UTU was my first choice, Ididn't get in.
Um I didn't want to go to themy the CAP program, so I only I
(19:18):
only applied to two schools, onein Texas and then one in the
UK.
And I got and the UK has alater start date, later
admission.
So I hadn't, you know, school,I had been graduated for a
couple months before I finallygot my acceptance letter.
And so I got that one like theweek before summer camp.
So I went into summer camphaving been accepted to college,
but still like, you know, God,is this what you want me to do?
(19:41):
Like kind of stuck in adecision paralysis, but like
also just like waiting on God.
And I got some really goodadvice um from someone right
before I went to summer camp.
And they're like, sometimes Godtells you what to do, and then
sometimes God leaves it up toyou, and it's your decision to
make.
And I was wrestling with thatidea, and I also in that moment,
I heard, you know, I had areally clear hearing God say,
(20:04):
like, whichever direction youwant to go, I'm gonna go in with
you.
And so it's also at that so Idid get in, and then I was doing
that, but also at that time Ihad started doing celibate
recovery with Danielle and wewere doing the landing, and um,
I was working with middleschoolers and I was you know a
senior, but um my my heartreally broke for them when I was
(20:26):
work I just I was doingchildcare at the time, really.
Even I we were doing celibaterecovery, but I was like the
child care employee.
That's how I was making money.
Um, but we were doing thelessons and I would sit with
them and we talked about theirlives and we would talk about
their struggles, and you know,it was just like you know, my
love for them and then the likethe life that they had to lead,
and also, you know, I just waslike, I want to do this, I want
(20:48):
to sit with students and talk tothem about their life and help
them figure out how to so youput it you put that other thing
all on the side.
So I said, you know, I waslike, God, I want to do this,
and I was like, I'm gonnafollow, I want to go this
direction and kind of oh, gowhere my heart leads.
Because I did, I do, you know,it was it was a hard decision
because I also love school.
Yeah, I love academia, andsomeday I'm still gonna finish
(21:11):
my degree.
But um, I was going, I hadgotten accepted into an honors
physics program, and I was, youknow, because my my goal was um
to study uh quantum mechanicsand get my PhD.
So like there was like thiswhole different track of life,
basically, to go to the UK andstudy abroad and um get my
(21:31):
degree, get my undergrad, get mygraduate degree, do my PhD.
Probably would have ended uplike a coder or something, you
know, because that's really allphysics degrees are good for
these days, but maybe work on areally cool project.
And so, like, there was orbecome a professor.
I did one that's something Idid want to do too.
So get um, so like, yeah, thatwas our whole track one
direction, and who knows if youknow, who knows what would have
happened in that direction too.
Piet Van Waadre (21:53):
But then there was this whole other track of
like doing ministry and like andI and I think the reason I it
stuck with me so much wasbecause you know people talk
about um like I want to do, Iwant to touch people's lives, I
want to do and and I I love it.
I think that's an awesomeaspiration.
But there's also in yoursituation, I thought, well, for
(22:16):
him, it was like a real realeither or choice.
Like you could have beensuccessful at this other thing.
And um, you know, not everybodyhas those opportunities.
And so the fact that you said,you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna
put that on pause, not to saythat you might, yeah, I mean you
may still do it someday.
But the fact that you said, I II I love these kids, I want to
(22:40):
do ministry, I'm willing to laythat down.
I just thought it was so socool, so impressive.
Preston Jackson (22:46):
Loved it.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waadre (22:47):
Nice.
Preston Jackson (22:49):
It was not the most selfless choice.
It was something that, youknow, it was it was an easy
decision to make because that'ssomething I loved and wanted to
do.
And you know, I wasn't like itwasn't all pious and like I'm
gonna I'm gonna put aside mycares and my desires for the
work of the gospel.
Piet Van Waadre (23:05):
It was uh Oh yes, it was.
That's the that's the image I'mholding on to.
Preston Jackson (23:10):
It was I love this is where I want to be right
now.
Piet Van Waadre (23:13):
Uh well I I think there's something to that
too.
You know, I think the Lord doeslike I love how you said it.
I think the Lord does uh oftengive us the opportunity to say,
well, is this what you'reexcited about?
Like, do you love this?
Because I'll go with you.
Yeah.
I mean, unless it's like evil.
Preston Jackson (23:29):
You know, we talk about walking that back.
I am more and I'm moreembracing of that idea now that
like even before, you know, wedon't as it's going down a
rabbit hole, but even beforelike where does God want us to
be, I more believe that whereverwe go, yeah, I have a deeper
understanding of that idea ofwherever we go, God is with us.
And a primary belief in that,like, yeah, first he's with us
(23:52):
and then he'll make it work.
And then if we're willing tolisten, he'll guide us to places
that he has designs or that aregood for us, right?
Yeah.
But there's like uh I think youknow, we we make it too much
either or in my opinion.
You know, if you go off on thewild side, God's still with you.
Amen.
Right?
Yeah, he is.
Piet Van Waadre (24:13):
That's what that's all about.
Um all right, so let's uh youwhat are you doing now?
Like you're you're likeentrepreneuring now, you you you
gotta you help me and help me.
Preston Jackson (24:24):
I'm still working on explaining that to
people and trying to get it downto my like 60 second small
talk.
Uh-huh.
Uh, because there's so manythings I'm doing.
I've been working on thepodcast with you, been um doing
you know my own consulting workand like marketing.
That's a weird shift that Inever expected when you know,
talk about like directions lifecould have gone, you know, when
(24:45):
I was 18, I would never haveimagined that I would be um
doing marketing, um, or muchless like running and kind of
uh, you know, a two-man agencyand doing consulting work with
people.
Um, you know, because like I'vegot clients who are, you know,
across I've got clients acrossacross the globe, and I'm like
working with people in all theirplaces, and I'm like, what do I
(25:07):
know about running an in?
Uh but here I am advisingpeople on how to like do their
marketing.
Why who I would never haveguessed it.
So like you know, I domarketing consulting, and then
um, you know, I've c recentlyhad an opportunity to start
another company, a tech company,and we're working on um with
you know, we we're kind of likeuh see this is where it gets
complicated, and I guess in oneminute, we're a uh we're a
(25:30):
vendor of my company's a vendorof products, and so we're
working with a couple of we'reworking on getting a couple
products launched and um intoour retail network because I
have a couple of a part I have acouple partners who hire like
an extensive network, and that'salso, you know, that's another
thing that's kind of aculmination of my time at
Shoreline Um and myrelationships there.
But like um, so you know, I'vegot several different things
(25:53):
going.
I've got another, um, I s youknow, there's another startup
I've been working with as well,doing marketing with um that's
kind of you know, still waitingto get its feet under it, and so
and that's a completelydifferent world.
And I, you know, I was workingon a docuseries this summer and
still working on closing outthat project and you know, just
kind of doing a little bit ofeverything, partly to make
(26:13):
money, partly to do you see likea common thread between them
all that kind of bring themtogether for you?
Piet Van Waadre (26:19):
Um like what makes them attractive for you?
What makes them attractive forme?
Preston Jackson (26:23):
Um I just you know, I like I like new things.
I'm always been a person wholikes change.
I like to change thingsregularly.
I don't like things to say thesame.
Um I loved when we would getnew desk assignments at school
because I liked to move and bein a different part of the room.
Um I hated classrooms where wewere in the same place the whole
(26:44):
year.
Um and like that's just who Iam.
And so part of it is thenovelty of it and getting to
work on new projects and gettingto do new different different
things.
Like the film project was new,and I have some experience.
You know, I've got experiencedoing film stuff.
I mean, I that's what I do foryou.
And I did that shoreline too,but like it's just undertaking a
documentary.
I've never done that.
(27:04):
Um, and but also like I alsolike um I also just you know
really enjoy business in a waythat I didn't know I did, you
know, 10 years ago.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and I like putting themtogether and like organizing
them, and I love spreadsheetsand I like doing budget
projections.
Piet Van Waadre (27:22):
You did keep us like I remember at Shoreline,
you were like the master ofschedules and processes and
systems.
Preston Jackson (27:30):
I love processes and systems and
logistics.
It's yeah that I knew I Ilearned I was really good at
from an early age.
I because did you know I youprobably don't know this?
I when I was 12, I wascoordinating VBS at Shoreline.
Um I was like the assistantcoordinator at that time.
There was like me and then theadult who would be the the
actual enforcer, but like I wasplanning everything, doing
(27:52):
routes and schedules, and like Iso I didn't like I that's you
know something I learned at areally young age, it's something
I'm good at um and I like to doand like is you know, getting
to work with startups like thistoo is something you know,
there's a lot to figure outlogistically, and you know,
making it's a puzzle, it's fun,I enjoy it a lot.
Piet Van Waadre (28:10):
You're good at it, you really are good at it.
So um now as you look out, likeI'm I I love you know talking
to people who are in differentseasons of life than I am.
And so you you you know, you'rea young guy, you're still
looking at a lot of your lifeahead of you.
Um when you think about what'shappening in the church and and
(28:31):
you know what it looks like forthe this quote unquote next
generation, what are some of thethings that you're like excited
about, you're optimistic about,and then maybe some of the
things that you're like, uh Idon't know.
Preston Jackson (28:45):
Oh man, how controversial do you want me to
go, Pete?
You know, because uh we can gothere.
The things that excite me, uh Imean, I think the American
church has been stuck for areally long time.
And you know, I'manti-evangelical in all many
(29:07):
ways, and so there's a lot ofthings I think that we've been
doing in the last 50 years thatare not um advantageous for the
gospel.
Um and part, but like thisquestion has this question is
one that sent me down this likediscovery and learning about
traditions and trying tounderstand too, like um, and one
of the things I'm unravelingfrom my past is like this idea
(29:29):
of the right way to worship orthe right way to spread the
gospel, or what's the the realchurch?
I you know, we hear that Ithink we hear we're hearing a
lot that of that in 2025.
But what's the real church, youknow, or whether it's the
Protestants or like Catholicsdon't know what they're talking
about, or Catholics who are likeProtestants know what they're
talking about, or whatever.
Um, and so like even to thatquestion, and trying to peel
(29:51):
apart theologically andphilosophically and
experientially, like, what ischurch and like why does church?
church and what is the gospeland why does the gospel and how
do people spread it and w whatwhy is it is it the same or is
it different than it was 2000years ago and should we be doing
church like they you knowthere's a rule there was this
(30:13):
kind of call to let's do churchlike the apostles did it and
like is that you know I was likethat sounds like a lot a good
goal but then I like sat with itand I was like should we do
church that way?
Like is there a reason?
Is there a is it bad that we dochurch the way we do church?
And I say I'm anti-evangelicaland but I do like the way we do
church.
You know I it's what I grew upin I enjoy it.
I'm not like turn down thelights and get get that fog
(30:36):
machine out of there.
I think there's space for it.
Piet Van Waadre (30:39):
And um and so like now when you say
anti-evangelical for those whomay not be familiar with the
term because I think I I we'vewe've had enough conversations
about it or I think I know whereyou're headed with that but
just like unpack that a littlebit.
What what what do you mean bythat?
Preston Jackson (30:54):
Like the event you there's so much to unpack
there but just like the uh youknow the general evangelical
doctrine and the evangelical youknow there's the evangelical
church which kind of arose inthe last 70 years um the modern
evangelical movement rightthere's been there's deeper
roots to it but it's kind ofamalgamation of the Baptist
(31:15):
tradition and the uh Pentecostaltradition with its charismatic
charismatic elements and it'salso it's got its deep dogmatic
and doctrinal elements too andthis kind of more modern and
it's the root of thisnon-denominational movement too
right and that was started withlike Billy Graham and you know
goes forth in today and you knowthe biggest churches in America
today are allnon-denominationals right and so
(31:37):
this I this kind of nonnon-movement but there's just
there's some key um beyond thethere's some key dogmas I would
call them beyond doctrine notdoctrines because there's some
sh there's definitely there'sseparate this is a deep
conversation deep but separatingyou know the levels of doctrine
but I would I'll I'll callthese doctrines dogmas
(31:58):
separating out the there's somecertain specific dogmas to the
evangelical belief and um thereare some also some certain
practices like the anti-practicepractice of tearing down
tradition and being like wedon't need to do it that way or
just because or because it is anentrenched position like um you
know it's that somehow it'swrong like it's too rigid and
(32:21):
too religious.
And you know I've heard that uma lot in my life about you know
being anti-religious.
You know we're we f I'm it Iwould I'm a Jesus follower but
I'm anti-religious and I onepoint in my life I would have I
associated with that idea likeyou know it's it's a
relationship right it's thatt-shirt relationship over
religion.
But now I'm definitely thinkingI lean more religion in my
(32:43):
ideas and I think that there's athere's a strong place for
religion.
Piet Van Waadre (32:46):
And so like even being part of my
anti-evangelical is rejectingthat idea that religion is a bad
thing or like there's thatthere is that there you know I
don't like um what's the wordwhat's the word I don't like
come on Pete you preach thisbefore you know what I'm talking
about I don't like the thewhat's the rigid the the the dog
(33:08):
uh the the legalism I don'tlove legalism yeah but I do like
structured religious religionand tradition well and the
reason I'm I'm kind of pressingyou on it because on one hand
you are a like systems processguy that you appreciate order
and you appreciate like claritybut on the other hand you I I
(33:32):
when I hear you talk aboutyou're like but I also love
mystery and I think we don'thave enough appreciation for
mystery or we don't have enoughappreciation for history and I
feel like we haven't eventouched on that conversation.
Preston Jackson (33:45):
So it's kind of like an interesting mix that
you have of that and and andthat's why I've asked you to
it's not it's not controversialto me because I feel like you're
you're like you you found a wayto integrate it all but I I've
walked back those things yeahand like it is I do agree it's
interesting because umespecially with you know the
church tradition I was raised inis and you know but then also
(34:10):
like I am very rigid in mythinking but at the same time
like my earliest religiousexperiences my my transformative
moment my spiritual moments aresteeped in that mystery and
that mysticism of like how can Ibe standing in this room it as
in a like in the middle of theforest in South Texas but I'm
(34:34):
also standing you know next toJesus and like you know these
things that I you know theseweird moments in my life and
it's lear it's learned too and Ithink is what I'm trying to say
and like um it's something I'vehad to evaluate because I've
also had some other reallyinteresting moments um just you
know with God and in weirdplaces like well not so weird
(34:57):
it's pretty like I guess umpretty cliche I was standing on
the top of a hill in Ireland andI had a vision and of what God
was doing and like and that's aweird mystical moment right um
and so like you know having toreconcile having weird mystical
moments but also being very youknow um scientific in my own
(35:18):
approach to life and like analand not analyzing and so having
to figuring out how to like makethose things work inside myself
has been a challenge.
But it's also I think it doesit has produced something weird.
Piet Van Waadre (35:28):
I love it.
I think it's beautiful and Iappreciate the way that you're
so thoughtful about thesematters and that that you really
have carved out a path for youthat uh as I have encountered
you very authentic.
You know it's just like this islike I'm not necessarily trying
to fit into any box and I'm notreally trying to make anybody
happy.
Not that I'm trying to be youknow purposefully offensive
(35:49):
either.
It's just like I'm trying toI'm trying to figure it out and
I'm trying to be authentic aboutwhat I know and believe.
And um and it's one of thereasons I feel like uh you know
you have something to say tothis generation.
Preston Jackson (36:01):
Okay.
Where do we because we went offtrack there.
So that's what I told you atthe beginning we can do that.
Yeah you did you took me wewent and we had I had explained
some anti-evangelicism we'retalking about the future of the
church.
No I think I'm you know thiswas going to be controversial.
I think that in some ways thechurch is um imploding and I
(36:24):
think that's a good thing.
Um the modern church I thinkthe the American church while I
have been examining you knowdifferent ways of understanding
what church is but I think thatthere is some collapse to the
way we do church and to those tothe non-existent traditions.
And maybe that's what's part ofthe problem is there are no
traditions to hold to and that'scaught that's creating some
(36:45):
collapse.
But then you know COVIDdefinitely helped do it um and
the political climate isdefinitely helping do it or at
least pull people apart andpulling the church apart.
And I think that that while isa painful thing and it's causing
a lot of strife and it's gonnacause a lot of hurt to people I
think it's also a good thing inthat it's causing people to
(37:08):
re-examine their beliefs and youknow because I'm just I'm also
just one piece of this wholedeconstruction movement that
kind of began even right aroundthe same time I was like you
know you know the reason I amthe way I am today is because I
started reading the Bible andunderstanding it.
And I learned how to read myBible and it caused me to to um
(37:30):
re-examine lots of things that Ihad thought I knew about life
and about the Bible andunderstand the Bible and also
trying to like reconcile partsof the Bible that I've read with
my understanding of who God is.
And so like all of those thingslike I or just have been
working and doing things and Ithink that that is I think
that's something that's reallygood for the church.
(37:50):
The American church the globalchurch to think about doing
things differently because Ithink that the church I think in
the history of the church toothe worst times for the church
has been when it's been verystaunchly too staunchly in its
traditions right too tooentrenched it does not seem like
we go back before I gave a um Igave a sermon at a youth camp
(38:13):
one time and I was probablyreally informed by this topic
but about the balance of spiritand truth and about the balance
of the mystical and the balanceof the knowing and the the
present reality and like findingthat you know walking in the
middle line and that's where thechurch needs to be right it
needs to be it's not toocharismatic it's not too
dogmatic it's not too it's nottoo apart from the world it's
(38:36):
not I hate that's a bad onebecause I don't even believe
that there's no such thing astoo close to the world because
we are the we are entrenched init and we should be and like
that's one of my thoughts too islike I think that we when the
church gets stuck in theseplaces where people think they
know what it should be and Ithink that the gospel itself is
this living breathing thingspirit that goes forth and it in
(38:59):
itself it this is acontroversial idea.
Some people might take offenseum but that the gospel it's so
far the gospel itself thebecause like the gospel comes in
and creates transformationwithin people right and it
changes who we are but I thinkthat also in the same way that
the gospel changes us um andtakes away some of the worst
(39:20):
parts of you know smooth out theworst parts of our edges um we
change the gospel and I thinkthat's even more true on like
because you know the Bibledoesn't say you a lot it says
y'all a lot right it's acommunity driven thing and like
in the community sense like thelike the gospel comes in and
transforms culture and nationand groups of people and it
(39:40):
changes them from what they wereinto something different.
But it doesn't completely takeit isn't like a it's not a force
that removes who those peoplewere right it's not like you
know there's this there was thismovement I know from the 90s
and the 2000s of like this likeeveryone should like if the
whole like the preachingpreachers would be like if
everybody followed Jesus wewould be all the same and it
(40:02):
would be like and like there's acertain way to have culture and
there's a certain way to liveyour life and there's a certain
way to do things and the gospelbrings about this monoethnic
culture thing.
And I don't believe that Ithink that the I think that
there's the Bible clearly paintsa picture of a multi-ethnic
multicultural amalgamation ofpeople coming to the temple of
(40:24):
God and then and in the same waythat by the gospel comes in
changes a group of people but isalso changed by who those
people are and when it goesforth again to the next group of
people it is inherentlydifferent in some ways.
And then it goes forth and likethe church in itself is ever
evolving in this idea of whatthe gospel does and how the
people who last held the gospeltook it forward because I think
(40:48):
it also isn't something thatexists independently of who we
are.
It's something that we hand toeach other and you know we
accept the salvation togetherright it's a you know these
things about me but you knowit's something that we all have
to do together.
Piet Van Waadre (41:03):
Well and I think what part of what I think
you're touching on is thetension of like there are
certain things about the faiththat remain consistent and then
there are certain things thatare always involving like the
Lord you know prophet said I'mI'm doing a new thing which he's
he's always doing a new thing.
So it's it's that figuring outlike what's the essential like
(41:25):
what do I need to continueholding on to regardless of what
happens in the culture.
And then what what where isthere room for creativity?
Where's there room for a newexpression?
And that's and you know we s wecan talk about it
philosophically but in practicethat's really hard to sort out
and uh but I think we have tohold the tension for sure.
Preston Jackson (41:46):
And I think it's in that I think there's a
there's a looseness that we Ithink there's a looseness we
should approach it with like weshouldn't be too rigid in those
things.
And I know there's and but thisthat's that rigid that's that
rigidity in those things thatdoesn't allow the gospel to do
those things and at some pointthat thing breaks and we it's
historically we see it happenand something new comes out of
it.
And because the gospel isn'tstopped right God doesn't stop
(42:11):
moving and then there issalvation to a new group of
people and it looks differentafterwards.
And sometimes we chase afterthat and we probably should be
chasing something that lookscompletely different than what
happened before.
Because you know God did sayI'm gonna do a new thing.
Piet Van Waadre (42:27):
Well uh I have loved this conversation thank
you for being willing to move onthe other side of the camera
and philosophize with me for abit.
It's great to have you as aguest and I want to say thank
you to you all for joining usfor this conversation.
And we are going to like givelike there is a lot of things
that we talked about today thatwe want to give you an
(42:49):
opportunity to interact with aswell.
And so if there are questionsthat come up as a result of what
you've seen and heard we'd loveto interact with that.
And so we always try and leavethose uh opportunities in the
notes uh so wherever you'reseeing this please feel free to
comment like share and uh andand even disagree like that's
okay too so thank you forjoining us and we hope to see
(43:12):
you next week for anothersidewalk conversation
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