September 25, 2025 • 51 mins
Kurt Andre shares his journey through a 45-year friendship with the host, discussing authentic relationships, professional transitions, and personal redemption after crisis.
• Kurt grew up on four continents in a military family, moving constantly until college
• Authentic friendship means having someone who knows your story and loves you anyway
• Your "why" comes out of your "who" – discover passion by noticing what you're good at
• Small experimental steps help minimize risk when transitioning careers
• At 39, Kurt's carefully managed life crashed when his incongruent living was exposed
• He lost his job, family, and ended up sleeping in his car in Boston during winter
• A group of men committed to meeting with him weekly for two years during recovery
• Childhood coping mechanisms often become adult defense mechanisms that sabotage relationships
• True healing requires self-reflection and creating safe spaces for vulnerability
• Kurt's relational constellation includes "water in" (mentors), "water with" (peers), and "water out" (serving)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waarde (00:00):
Thank you for joining us for another Sidewalk
Conversation.
I'm glad to be your host todayand I'm very excited about
inviting a lifelong friend tojoin me on the pod.
We're going to be talking abouta whole series of things.
We're going to talk aboutfriendship, we're going to talk
about business and we're evengoing to work through a failure,
and so I'm excited aboutintroducing you to my guest.
But before we do, I just wantto say a personal word about
(00:24):
friendship.
You know, a lot of times we aretold that community, especially
in Christian context, we're toldthat community is so important
because we have to have peoplethat we're going to walk life
with.
We need people to be ourencouragers, our truth tellers,
our fun friends, and all ofthat's really important.
But I also find myselfresonating deeply with the
(00:45):
statement that says we are thecombination of the five people
who are closest to us.
There is a sense in which ourclosest relationships really do
shape not only who we become,but who we get to know, and the
friend that I'm introducing youtoday is somebody that has
served as a spiritual encourager.
(01:08):
He's been a leader, he's beenan example, and I have found him
to be such a person that I cango to at all seasons of life.
In fact, we have stretched 45years together and I hope those
of you who are watching have theopportunity to have such
friendships in your life,because they really are a source
of such richness, such blessing.
(01:28):
When people know you and seeyou and are part of your lives,
they bring out the best in you,and that's certainly the case
with this friend, and I hope youhave one as well.
I can't wait to see you meethim.
(01:54):
I do want to say a word ofthanks to our sponsor as we get
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All right now let me introduceto you my good friend and
(02:36):
actually the best man for mywedding, kurt Andre hey.
Kurt, thank you for joining us.
Kurt Andre (02:42):
Oh gosh Pete, this is a huge privilege to be here.
Piet Van Waarde (02:44):
Thank you.
We introduced our audience toyour wife last week and she did
so well, so I'm just going tosay it right up front Don't suck
.
I mean like she raised the barreally high.
Kurt Andre (02:56):
I'm not surprised.
I'm not surprised.
Piet Van Waarde (02:59):
Well, I want to start by just kind of having a
conversation about friendship.
That's kind of where we startedtoday.
You and I have known each other.
We counted up the years 45years, 45 years spring of 1980
is when we met.
Yeah, so we were back incollege at that time and we
became fast friends and thenyour wife told I didn't I don't
(03:20):
know if you may have told me,but I didn't remember but your
wife told us in the last episodethat you guys kind of made a
connection at our wedding.
Kurt Andre (03:27):
Yes, we did, march 10th, so I need to take credit
for that too.
You're welcome to if you'd like.
Absolutely yeah.
Yeah, so you met at the weddingand then you got together and
Knew each other from classes butcertainly being a part of your
wedding and kind of roping herinto helping me get you into
horse and carriage, afterwards.
Piet Van Waarde (03:44):
That's right, that's how we left, yeah.
Kurt Andre (03:46):
And yeah, that was at that kind of that moment.
That's where it kind of beganNow.
Piet Van Waarde (03:50):
One of the things I've enjoyed so much
about our relationship is thatyou have kind of a philosophic
bent, as I enjoy having as well,and so I want to philosophize a
little bit about friendship.
We've known each other for 45years.
We've watched each other walkthrough a variety of seasons of
life getting sortedprofessionally and then with
(04:11):
children and crises, and greattimes too.
We did some great vacationstogether, and so, from your
perspective, what are some ofthe things that you think about?
What are some of the thingsthat you of the things that you
think about?
What are some of the thingsthat you value about deep,
lifelong friendships, and whywould it be worth the investment
for somebody to say, hey, youknow what, I think this is
(04:33):
something in life worthinvesting in.
Kurt Andre (04:40):
Well, that's a great question and, to give context,
you probably remember that Igrew up my whole life, until
college moving virtually everyyear.
So I grew up on four continents.
My dad was in the military,spoke six languages and the
military capitalized on that.
And so I found myself at thebeginning of every school year
new kids, new neighborhood,sometimes new culture, new
language.
And I remember meeting you inthe spring, and then we came
back to school in the fall andthe first thought when I saw you
(05:03):
was you're still here.
I came back to school in thefall and the first thought when
I saw you was you're still here.
And this idea of having somebodyover the course of years was
new to me, somebody who knew mystory, who was excited to see me
as much as I was excited to seethem.
That was a life experience andI think that one of the things
(05:34):
that, as I've reflected on ourrelationship, that I think it's
we've stayed in touch, we'vestayed connected and there's so
much alignment.
I mean I think we share faithtogether.
We share, I think, excitement,enthusiasm, leadership,
certainly.
So there's things that we enjoy, things that we like, things
that we're hardwired to and then, kind of woven together, the
(05:54):
commitment to stay in touch.
You know, initially we talkedabout going to New England to
plant a church.
Piet Van Waarde (06:00):
I know you're still holding that against me.
A hundred percent, I am.
Kurt Andre (06:03):
I was going to be the therapist and you were going
to be the pastor and et cetera,and we ended up going to New
England and you went to VirginiaBeach and, regardless of where
our vocations have taken us,where our calling has taken us,
to stay connected and I thinkthis dynamic of being known, the
good and the ugly, thedifficult and the celebration, I
(06:24):
know, for me has's beencathartic because I've struggled
a lot with that in my life andI feel like you've been somebody
who sees me and still loves meand that's a gift.
I don't feel like ourrelationship is conditional and
even though stretches of timewhere we haven't talked every
day for 45 years, there's beenstretches of time when we didn't
see each other and yet comeback together you, you know it's
(06:46):
kind of cliche, but people saylike, like you know, nothing
ever had, no gap, ever happened.
Piet Van Waarde (06:51):
Uh, there certainly is that dynamic of
connection and joy I want tojust camp out on that point a
little bit, because I think thatthere's something to be said
about that.
Um, because you know there werelike in the early, you know we
were like best friends incollege.
And then when we met our wives,there was like a group of four
couples.
We did a lot of things togetherand then kids came in the
picture and then it wasn't as wedidn't get in touch with as
(07:14):
often.
But you know, periodically wewould kind of touch a base with
one another.
And now recently, now the kidsare gone and we have a little
bit more independence- Right,it's been resurrected.
I think, like I've seen peoplemake the excuse that, well, it's
been a long time since we'vebeen in touch and they use that
as an excuse not to kind of goback and say you know, that was
(07:35):
a really meaningful friendship.
There may be something stillthere.
Why not reach out?
And you'd be surprised by howvaluable just making that effort
to kind of reach out and say,hey, I miss you.
You were such a good friend tome and being willing to open
that door or knock on that doorI think is such an essential
(07:57):
part of it.
And then when you do it, you'relike, oh, this is awesome,
right no-transcript.
Kurt Andre (08:26):
we saw each other at the airport and had this kid
together.
It was very purposeful, becausePete and Carol are people that
I want in my life, and so Ithink we have found that, which
has led to being here today.
Piet Van Waarde (08:40):
Which, by the way, thank you very much.
All right, let me pivot andtalk a little bit about your
professional life, because youhave done quite a bit in your
life.
You started off headed toseminary and going the pastoral
route.
While you were doing thatyou're, I think, painting houses
.
Kurt Andre (08:58):
Put us through grad school.
Piet Van Waarde (09:01):
So you have a handy side to yourself, and then
again you made anothertransition to more speaking,
consulting.
Now you have your own company,All of those things.
You might not necessarily seethe thread, obviously, between
all that, but for you, I'm sureit feels more like oh, this led
(09:23):
to that, this led to that.
How did you navigate some ofthose transitions?
What prompted them, and wasthere a grid that you used as a
way to make those decisions?
Because I think people who arewatching probably find
themselves in similar positionswhere maybe the thing that I
wanted to start to do in life isnot the thing that I'm doing
now or want to do now, but Idon't know how to make the
(09:43):
transition.
So what would you say aboutthat?
Kurt Andre (09:46):
That's a great question.
I often get asked Kurt, how didyou get to where you're doing?
Where'd you go to school?
What jobs did you have?
And as wildly successful asSimon Sinek is and he's a great
communicator and I love what alot of you hear I would
fundamentally disagree with hisinitial premise.
You know he talks about theimportant thing in life and
business is discover your why,and I would agree that's
(10:09):
incredibly important.
But to me, your why comes outof your who and starting the
journey with knowing who you are, what your passion is, what
your strengths are.
I tell people I work with, ifyou want to find your passion,
you're finding your why.
Pay attention to what you'regood at, where your strengths
are.
I tell people I work with ifyou want to find your passion,
you're finding your why.
Pay attention to what you'regood at, where your strengths
are.
I had no intention of going intostudent ministry.
You and I were interviewingpastors around Tulsa who had
(10:33):
planted churches.
Give us insight, wisdom.
What would you tell these twoyoung guys?
And I remember one of themasking me what are you doing
with your life?
And I was dating Marsha,waiting for her to finish, and
he said why don't you be ouryouth pastor.
Well, I didn't know what thatwas.
I was the only teenager in mychurch never been in the youth
ministry didn't know that was ajob and so naively said sure.
(10:54):
And that was the beginning of mediscovering wow, you can love
young people.
Get to know God.
Design a T-shirt.
Piet Van Waarde (11:01):
Tell a booger joke go on a trip and get paid
for that.
Kurt Andre (11:05):
And so I feel like I kind of backed into student
ministry, realized I wasbiblically illiterate.
We were thinking about going toNew England, so I went to
Boston for seminary and justreally fell in love with coming
alongside young people.
So there wasn't a crystallizedmoment of feeling a calling in
that direction, but being in themoment, listening to an
opportunity.
And then I think there's a guyby the name of Parker Palmer.
(11:27):
I used to listen to him on NPRpre-podcast and I remember one
episode he talked about whenoften when we're reading a book,
we're listening to somebodyspeak.
Often our temptation is to takenotes on what it is that
they're saying.
But he said something thatresonated with me.
He said the best notes that wetake are the notes we take on
ourselves, paying attention towhen somebody says something.
How does that land on you whenyou hear a concept, what stands
(11:51):
out for you about that?
And I think that the trajectoryof my life has been more about
learning to listen to myself,certainly with the influence of
others, and there's probably aformula there, but that's how I
followed my life in studentministry.
There's probably a formulathere, but that's how I followed
my life in student ministry,started to be asked to help
other student ministries and hita wall when I was 39.
Talk about that probably laterWent through a significant
(12:13):
season of trying to figure outwhat do I do now.
Had five men that camealongside me that really were
helpful in that transition.
Had a mentor who's still in mylife.
He raised an issue.
He said Kurt, why don't youthink about getting off of your
stage and helping people ontheirs?
Piet Van Waarde (12:28):
Never thought about that idea.
Oh, that's a great.
Say that again.
Kurt Andre (12:30):
That's a good one Well it was Leighton Ford, who's
been in my life since 1993.
During that season of God, whatdo I do next?
He challenged me with this ideaKurt, why don't you think about
getting off of your stage thework that you've been doing For
me it was student ministry andwhy don't you help people on
theirs?
And I was like you can do thatfor a living, and I was doing it
(12:51):
somewhat ad hoc, not certainlygetting paid for it.
And that began the journey ofwhat does it actually look like
to come alongside other peopleto help them in their area,
their industry, their platform,their role, who they are.
That caused the pivot fromlocal church ministry to really
moving into consulting andcoaching.
Piet Van Waarde (13:11):
You know, what I love about that part of the
story is, you know, sometimeswhen, especially as believers,
we talk about the leadership ofthe Holy Spirit and I can't
remember who said it to me itwas early in my ministry too
it's like a lot of times, aspastors, we're hoping that we
get light ahead of us that willshow us how to, how we're
(13:32):
supposed to proceed, where we'resupposed to go, what we're
supposed to do, and it rarelyhappens that way.
You rarely get in advance whatyou need.
It's along the way, like asyou're doing.
Kurt Andre (13:43):
Discovered on the journey?
Piet Van Waarde (13:44):
Yeah, as you're doing, discovered on the
journey.
Yeah, as you're doing things,you, you resonate with them and
you're like oh wow, this feelsreally good, this feels really
right.
This is me, you know, and thoseare the moments that become so
directional in terms of what youend up doing, and it sounds
like that's exactly whathappened yeah, I, I was never
one and there are people thathave this and I'm certainly
certainly not.
Kurt Andre (14:03):
There's no criticism here.
This idea of here's where Iwant to be, you know, at 25 or
in 40 or 50, 75.
I think as I look back and seeGod's direction Psalm 32, 8,.
The Lord promises to guide andinstruct us in the way that we
should go.
He'll counsel us with his eye.
Better understood in hindsightthan foresight that it's being
present in the moment.
(14:23):
Okay, god, bouncing off otherpeople who I respect prayerfully
, considering, that's reallybeen more the trajectory than in
five years, here's where I wantto be and then in 15 years,
here's where I want to be.
It's never been the processthat I've used.
I would argue you can, at thispoint in life you can probably
only look out three to fiveyears.
Too much changes, technology,culture shifts in life.
(14:46):
The work that I do with clients, whether it's individual,
coaching or organizational,three to five years is about as
far out as you can look in yourwindow, and how do you know to
get there?
I really believe starts withthe premise of what I call
knowing your center who are you,what are your values, your
vision, your mission, andgetting clear on that.
(15:06):
And then it unfolds.
Well, what does that expresslook like?
Again, whether that's personalor organizational, yeah, love
that.
Piet Van Waarde (15:14):
So when you find yourself in a helping
position, you're talking topeople about these kinds of
transitions, one of the thingsthat you're like.
If I were in your network ofpeople, you're helping and I was
like I think I might like to dothis.
You know, and you're alsotrying to, at the same time as a
(15:35):
believer, say, Lord, is thiswhat you're leading me to do?
And there's like a lot ofquestion marks around it all and
we would like to have moreconfidence, especially if it
feels risky.
So when people are in thatposition where they have like
some sense of what they'resupposed to do but they're not
highly confident that it's theright next step, what are some
of the things that you tell themthat they should do in order to
(15:57):
kind of move forward.
Kurt Andre (15:58):
Yeah, that's a great question and kind of the
framework I use is what I wouldcall organic intentionality.
The organic piece is Organicintentionality.
Organic intentionality, thisorganic sense of I'm sensing, I
think and what about, and thenthe intentionality is well, are
you good at that?
Is that what your passion is?
We've probably all heard ofthat Venn diagram, of the
hedgehog principle, that what amI passionate about?
(16:21):
What do I have an opportunity?
What am I naturally inclined tobe?
When you lay those three over,it's like when I was in high
school.
I loved basketball.
I went to basketball camp, Idribbled up and down the
driveway, I ended up going toactually an almost all-black
high school, and so I tried outfor the team and I think I made
it.
Only because I was a white guy,scored two points my sophomore
(16:42):
year.
I was a white guy, scored twopoints my sophomore year.
I was terrible at basketball,so I was passionate about it.
I made the team.
The problem was I sucked.
That was clearly not myhedgehog, and I think in working
with people and I also believe,juxtaposed to that, that nobody
becomes whom they have thecapacity to be by themselves I
really think that we have one ofthe most dangerous voices in
(17:05):
our head.
It's our own salesperson.
In the recovery world, theytalk about an addict who listens
to his own counsel as a personin a dangerous company right.
So I think, when you're sensingsomething, being in a position
of having somebody be on theother side of you or having wise
people to process with, to giveyou feedback of, Because I
think that you know whether it'ssomething you ate for breakfast
(17:26):
or it was the movement of theHoly Spirit, that's going to be
validated, that's going to becodified, that's going to be
reinforced and supported bywhether, again, the
intentionality, the data, thatdoesn't make sense.
I have a client in Miami whowants to launch about five
businesses and he's all excitedand he gave a great
justification for each one ofthem and, as he's telling me,
it's almost Kurt.
What should I do?
(17:46):
And I said well, you know, thenumber two reason for business
failure is managing cash flow,and there's no way I can see how
you can manage cash flow withfive new entities being launched
at the same time.
Probably all really good.
He was well, I think God'scalling me to do this.
I go well, unless you have atree with money, I don't see it
happening.
So I think that, certainly beingled by the Spirit, and also
(18:09):
processing with wise counsel,feedback, what's the data say
that it's an algebraic equationof putting those things together
which ends up resulting indiscernment.
I love that.
Piet Van Waarde (18:22):
That's a really great.
So paying attention to thenudges.
Sure, being realistic aboutyour skill set, inv.
I love that.
That's a really great.
So to pay attention to thenudges, being realistic about
your skillset, inviting somebodyelse along the way.
One of the things that I'vebeen thinking about, and I'd
love for you to comment on this,is just the value of
experimentation as well, likeespecially for people who may be
(18:43):
a little bit more seasoned inlife.
It feels to me like there'vebeen transitions I've made at
different seasons of my life,and you've always hear the
cliche well, it gets easier overtime.
Well, I'm not sure that's trueeither, because when you're
older it gets more complex overtime, well, and there's more
risk.
Well, a you feel like you shouldknow more.
(19:04):
B there may be some realfinancial implications to taking
a step that you know.
When you're young and gothardly any responsibility, it
all sounds great, but when youget older it's like okay,
there's some, there's some realrisk here.
So.
But it seems to me that there'dbe some value in just embracing
the idea of experimentation,like doing small things that can
(19:28):
give you an idea that thismight be true.
What's your perspective?
Kurt Andre (19:34):
on that Great question.
So a few years ago I got hiredby a financial service company
in New York and they wanted todo sales training about 1,200
salespeople and then leaderdevelopment for their senior
leadership across the company.
And so a number ofconversations back and forth.
I have a five-phase process atU.
It always starts with discovery.
Based on the discovery that Idid by interviewing focus groups
(19:57):
, I have some tools that I use.
I offered and said look, whydon't we just start with a pilot
?
Because he wanted to create theprogram, roll out across the
company, big guns.
And I said my experience isthat if we start small, and I
said why don't you give me thelowest performing team in your
company and then let me takethem through the process that I
think would be effective?
(20:17):
And then let's see how it goes.
Yeah, yeah.
And so BodyGovs andsurprisingly, maybe not they
became the highest producingorganization.
And then what happened for meas somebody, as a consultant or
a coach?
Piet Van Waarde (20:28):
everybody wanted you know when do we get
that?
Kurt Andre (20:33):
So you're building buy-in, you're getting, but I
think the idea of starting smallI quote from what About Bob all
the time, baby steps and inAtomic Habits which is a great
resource it's this idea thatchange doesn't come from
gigantic steps.
It comes from small steps takenover a period of time.
It's called a catalyticmechanism and I think that when
you're venturing out is to takethose steps purposely,
(20:56):
intentionally, in a particulardirection and then there's this
process that I use around youtake a step, that's an action,
and then you observe that actionand then you tell yourself a
story interpretation and thenyou repeat the action, adjust
the action or stop the action,but building into whatever you
do an iterative process ofaction.
Observation, interpretationgives you then a feedback loop
(21:19):
around should I do this, shouldI not do this?
It lowers risk, doesn'teradicate risk, but it gives you
incremental steps to know am Iheading in the right direction?
Does this make sense?
Does it work?
I mean, I mentioned the numbertwo reason for business failure.
The number one reason forbusiness failure is offering a
product or service nobody willbuy.
So you might be excited aboutit, but if you can't market it,
(21:39):
nobody's interested.
That that's not going to work.
Piet Van Waarde (21:44):
Yeah, yeah, well, really well said, all
right.
So I want to again shift alittle bit of focus.
So you've in your life you'vehad some great successes, you've
done some really importantthings, helped people and been
successful in a lot of areas ofyour life, but then you also had
a time in your life where therewas an interruption of all that
and you had to face some hardthings about yourself, and I
know this is a very personalquestion, and so I only want you
(22:07):
to feel free to engage with ithowever much detail you want to,
but that became a verysignificant, defining moment in
your life, and so tell me alittle bit about what happened
in all of that, what you learnedfrom that, and maybe some
guidance for some folks who findthemselves at a similar
(22:28):
crossroads.
Kurt Andre (22:29):
Yeah, it's a great, great question and I appreciate
your sensitivity in offering it.
It is pretty real for me thatthe first 40 years of my life
arguably things had gone reallywell.
Academically I did fine.
I swam in college, lovedseminary.
Student ministry did reallywell.
(22:50):
From an outside perspective,growth and whatnot.
But in looking back I had thehindsight now that I was really
living a compartmentalized life.
I have abuse in my background,lots of who I was I was either
in denial of or refused to lookat, believing and thinking that
(23:11):
that wouldn't really have anyimpact on my life, that I could
stay focused on the trophies,the wins, as opposed to really
looking at the difficulties andthe struggles, really looking at
the difficulties and thestruggles.
And so what began to happen forme from a ministry perspective,
as things grew, as I wasquote-unquote more successful, I
began to live more and moremisaligned with what I said was
(23:36):
true about who I am, my values,my morals, that I was living an
incredibly incongruent life.
And the more I was incongruent,the harder I spun the tale of
making it look like I was livinga congruent life and that, you
know you can only do that for solong Truth prevails.
I really thought that I couldlive a life separated from who I
(24:00):
really was, and one wouldn'tget caught.
And two, if I did, I knew mylife would be over and so all
the more perpetuated.
Not living a congruent life,not living honest, living a life
of deceit and image management.
And December 27, 2000,.
That all crashed.
That came to because truth didbecome revealed and the
(24:24):
incongruency of my life was mademanifest.
And again I have clients whoare living deceitfully and say
you know it's going to come out,because I believe truth does.
And that was a crisis.
I mean I lost my job, I lost myfamily.
I was sleeping in my car inBoston in January.
(24:44):
Wow, it was a major crisis inmy life.
But in the middle of that and Iwill get emotional there was a
group of men that said Kurt,we'll work with you.
And for two years I met withthem every week and they truly
came alongside me.
I put in septic systems, I wentback to painting.
I did whatever I could to makemoney because I lost my career.
(25:08):
I was in the church and thatwent away from me.
And in the midst of that, againtrying to figure out what does
my life look like now?
What do I do?
Because I only knew ministryand light construction, really
just painting.
Those were the things that Ihad done before.
Is that what I'm going to donow?
And it was a season of therapy,entering into the recovery
(25:32):
world and again, the combinationof those people in my life that
came alongside me, one of whommy mentor.
I remember talking to him andreally apologizing for being
such a failure.
And he's like Kurt, thisrelationship is about who you
are, not about what you do.
And for me to experience,really for the first time in my
(25:53):
life, being known and beingloved, because I still, to this
day I'm 64.
That was 25 years ago Stillstruggle with this.
If you really knew me, youwouldn't love me, and I think
part of our even coming backtogether and me telling you my
story it's like, will I be loved?
Because I grew up in a systemthat was conditional and didn't
(26:15):
really help me understand that Icould make mistakes and still
be loved.
That was a framework thatdidn't exist for me, and so for
the last 25 years it's beencontinuing in that space.
And that's when Leighton said,kurt, have you ever considered
getting off of your stage andhelping people on theirs?
That the idea of coaching cameinto mind.
I got certified to be anexecutive coach and put out a
(26:38):
shingle and started in the spacethat I knew, which was student
ministry.
I'll never forget the first guyI worked with, kevin Cox, who's
still in my life all theseyears later.
In fact, he's going to be inthe academy that I run now
training people that I do what Ido, but it's still an ongoing
journey.
There's a man in my life he's atherapist that 25 years ago
said Kurt, I want you to look inthe mirror every day.
(26:59):
And there's a sentence.
Piet Van Waarde (27:07):
I want you to say Excuse me, kurt, you're an
unrepeatable miracle of God.
Kurt Andre (27:17):
Does anyone believe that?
Still struggle with that.
But this idea of truth, tellingand being reminded and having
people hold up a mirror Incoaching.
I call coaches mirrorstraighteners Because I think
all of us look into mirrors likeat a carnival.
It is a reflection of who weare, but it's warped and part of
(27:40):
the journey for me of coachingand even consulting
organizationally isstraightening out that mirror.
I know this is the image youhave yourself, but it's not who
you are.
And so the privilege ofstraightening out that mirror,
and that's been done for me.
So a lot of my work isautobiographical.
I have no doubt that people Iwork with, companies that I come
alongside of, one helping themknow what center is, Because I
(28:03):
didn't know what my center was.
I knew what my image-managedcenter was, but really the core
of who I am, who I want to beBecause you don't know when
you're off center unless youreally know what center is
Companies you don't know whenyou've gone sideways until you
know who you are is all about.
So that's been my journey ofdoing the work to know what
(28:23):
center is, Experiencing peopleloving me for who I am, even
though I'm broken Becausebrokenness was not an acceptable
part of the equation to beloved, that I can still be
broken and be loved.
And I'm still on the journey ofworking that stuff out.
Thank you so yeah, it's changedmy life, it's become more of who
(28:43):
I am.
Well, that was very brave ofyou, thank you.
Piet Van Waarde (28:45):
So, yeah, it's changed my life, it's become
more of who I am.
Well, that was very brave ofyou, thank you.
I do want to touch on a coupleof things you said, because I
think they are so important tothe healing process you
described and I think too manypeople miss it.
So one of the things you saidearly on in your story was that
(29:06):
there was a part of your life,there was a part of the things
you experienced growing up inyour family system that you
thought you could separateyourself from by just being busy
and quote unquote doing good,like somehow just leaving that
in the past and not reallylooking at that again, believing
(29:28):
it wouldn't impact my presentRight.
That is such a common phenomenonyou know, especially like in
the broken world we live in.
People immediately assume well,you know, everybody's got their
stuff, everybody has theirbrokenness, you know it's just
like, and so they use that as anexcuse not to really deal with
it.
What would you say like why isit so important to go back and
(29:53):
revisit some of that stuff andprocess it in a healthy way,
whether it's with a counselor orwith a pastor or with other
resources?
Why is that so crucial?
Kurt Andre (30:04):
That's a great question.
So, part of my journey, I'm ina men's group.
I've been in for almost 16years now.
It's about 15 of us, same group, same group of guys.
That's facilitated by the guywho gave me that mantra, and I
learned a lot from them and oneof the guys in the group who
arguably suffered way more thanme growing up, shared with the
(30:27):
group a metaphor that he usesand it's really resonating, and
that is that when we're children, and regardless of our context
or situation, good or horriblewe learn ways of coping.
It's almost like if, grown up,there are a lot of rapids in
your life and there were in mine.
We learn to construct thislittle life raft and we get in
(30:48):
that life raft and it enables usto survive.
Those are called copingmechanisms.
But then what can happen and itcertainly was for me if we
continue to hold on to that liferaft or pull it over our
shoulder into adulthood, thosecoping mechanisms become defense
mechanisms and the very thingthat allowed us to survive as
(31:09):
children sabotages what we longfor as adults, and so my journey
first off was what constructionwent on in my life to build the
life raft that allowed me tosurvive.
You know, my therapist gave meanother great image that
behavior misaligned with who weare is an unhealthy way of
(31:29):
meeting a healthy need.
And so, for reframing that, thestruggles that I have are real,
they're okay, there's nothingwrong with them.
How I take care of them is theissue, and I was using unhealthy
, misaligned ways of meeting ahealthy need.
And so the idea that going backto learn what it is about how
(31:52):
we figured out how to surviveand being thankful for that, but
then knowing I don't need thatlife raft anymore, it served me
for a season I can let go ofthat and now learning new ways.
But I think, making theconnection, I had a client a
number of years ago was tellingme that yeah, my wife just
always is coming after me, andhe moved on.
(32:13):
I said whoa, what did you justsay?
He said what I said.
You said your wife comes afteryou.
I said look, I've met herPretty nice person and come to
find out he's a consummateconflict avoider, struggles to
deal with hard issues.
So I just asked him the questionwhat was life like for you
growing up as a kid?
I mean, how did you deal withconflict?
My dad, when he had a whiskeyin the hand, a belt in the other
(32:34):
, he would beat the shit out ofus.
Excuse my French.
He said that.
So we all hid.
I said and what happened?
Well, if you hid, you didn'tget beat up.
I said so what you learned tosurvive conflict as a child is
the same thing you're doing inyour marriage.
When there's conflict, you hide.
And there was a long pause onthe call.
He said Kurt, I've never madethe connection between what I
(32:56):
did to learn to survive as a kidis now how I deal with conflict
as an adult, and so that's whyI think it's worth not going
back and navel gazing as if it'sa major organ.
It's a belly button.
Piet Van Waarde (33:09):
Okay, I get that.
Kurt Andre (33:10):
But it's helpful, I know been, for me to go back and
figure out okay, what did I doand how is that showing up now
as an adult?
Where is it unhelpful?
Where is it helpful?
So that I can again let go ofthe life raft because I don't
need it anymore and yetunderstand, because I still get
triggered.
And the goal in life, I think,is not to not get triggered but
(33:30):
to deal with your triggersdifferently.
And somebody who is asleep tothemselves or unaware of their
past, they'll get triggered andthey'll react more like they did
as a kid than they can as anadult.
Piet Van Waarde (33:43):
So well said, like they did as a kid than they
can as an adult.
So well said.
The other piece that I wantedto talk a little bit about is
that you obviously had somepeople that came along and
really served you well, friendsthat walked with you, gave you
great advice.
One of the things that you kindof also touched on and I'd like
you to unpack it a little bitis that there's always a thought
(34:06):
in the back of your mind asyou're about to enter in a
relationship like that, like youmight conceptually know, I need
some help with this.
I need, I cannot do this alone.
So you kind of have thatthought.
But then the secondary thoughtthat almost comes right on the
heels of that is yeah, but whatwill they think of me if I tell
them?
What will?
That is yeah, but what willthey think of me if I tell them?
Will they really love me?
(34:26):
They're just going to think I'man idiot.
And especially, I think from aministry standpoint, it's even
worse, because you're like I'vesaid all these things throughout
my life and now they have tofind out this about me.
How did you get past that?
How did you finally get to aplace where you said you know
what Screw that I can't livethis way anymore.
I'm going to go ahead and behonest, I'm going to talk about
(34:50):
my stuff with somebody and I'mgoing to get this sorted out.
What was it that led you to aplace where you could finally do
that?
Kurt Andre (34:57):
Yeah, that's another great question, Pete.
Years ago I was getting readyto go overseas and was going to
do a workshop and asked to putsomething together and just I, I
believe you know God was veryhelpful in this and created a
framework of how I understandwhat it means to live in
community.
I call it a relationalconstellation and it's all based
(35:17):
on prepositions.
I think a lot of life is isbased on prepositions.
What do I mean by that?
That in this constellationidentifying what I would call
where in my life is water in?
Who is it that I learn from?
And to me, there's fourcategories.
I can read from others whom I'llnever meet, but their words
(35:38):
were wisdom that impacted mylife.
That's water.
In.
Another are people that I'llnever meet, but yet I see their
life.
I've never met Mother Teresadidn't get to, never would have,
but how she lived her life hadan impact for me.
That's water in.
The third category are peoplethat are water in.
They're occasional.
You meet them.
(35:58):
It could be a sermon, you heara talk or whatever, but they
impact.
And then the fourth category ofwater in are those
relationships that areintentional and purposeful
Mentors, pastors, coaches,therapists, and so critical, I
believe to living an authenticlife is making sure that you're
living life with water in.
(36:19):
And then there's water with.
Piet Van Waarde (36:21):
Can I just like before you move on on that?
Yeah.
And then there's water with CanI just like before you move on
on that?
Yeah.
So that fourth category ofwater in from people that are
therapists, coaches, pastors,counselors, advisors the
complexity of like, okay, I knowI need that investment, but if
I'm vulnerable they might notsee me as worthy of it.
Kurt Andre (36:50):
Or I might be terrified to be vulnerable they
might not see me as worthy of itor I might be terrified to be
vulnerable.
I met with a therapist waybefore my life crashed because I
was working too much and mywife was frustrated and arguably
my life was out of control.
And I remember going to her andshe asked me so what model did
you have as a dad growing up?
So my dad was gone all the time.
He was in military.
I didn't have a model.
And then she asked again well,kurt, what model did you have
growing up as a father?
(37:11):
I'm thinking that's not a verygood therapist.
I said I just said I didn'thave a model.
My dad was gone all the time.
Third time, same question.
Now I'm getting pissed.
You don't listen very well andthen it clicked oh, I get it the
model that I had for a father.
I didn't have one, and my dadused the military.
I was ministry, but at thatpoint in therapy I wasn't
(37:33):
willing to be vulnerable.
I was terrified that if I toldsomebody who was in a position
of water in what was going on,my life would be over, and so
fear kept me from beingvulnerable, even with people
that I knew were trustworthy,that were kind, that had my best
(37:54):
intention.
Sadly for me, it took crisis.
I mean, there are people thathave found the courage to reach
out and say I'm struggling,that's not my story.
It took a crisis for me andthen water with and using the
biblical metaphor of Paul, theaccountability, barnabas, the
(38:16):
encouragement for me to live anauthentic, transparent life,
doing life with people that knowmy story and still love me
create that safe place to allowthese 15 men we all know our
stories and yet love each otherdeeply.
But, still that's nottransformational.
There's water out, and waterout is when I'm being used in
(38:37):
the life of somebody else, evenin the 12-step program, being a
sponsor, if you're one who is aChrist follower, to disciple
others, if you're an aunt or anuncle to mentor a nephew, or a
sponsor, if you're one who is aChrist follower, to disciple
others, if you're an aunt or anuncle to mentor a nephew or a
niece.
That water in water, with waterout, finding the courage to be
honest and risking and thenprayerfully experiencing
(38:58):
vulnerability and acceptance Tome that's the authentic
transformational life.
Acceptance to me, that's theauthentic transformational life.
And shy of any one of thosedynamics juxtaposed to the
courage of being vulnerable, Idon't know how else to do it.
Piet Van Waarde (39:13):
I'm not sure I know the answer to this question
, so this is sincerely somethingI'm curious about from you.
So I've talked to people and,being a pastor over the years,
I've talked to people who cameto me and I knew something was
going on, like we had exploredto a certain degree some things
(39:35):
and we were ready to go toanother level, and they hit the
pause button and they said Idon't think I can talk about
this, because the last time Itried to talk about this I was
betrayed and I just like I usedto think that that was like a
rare occurrence, like thatdidn't happen very often, and
(39:56):
then I thought it doesn't happenthat often, in the church even
less, let's say.
But what I found is that that'sactually not true.
There's a lot of stories ofbetrayal in the culture at large
and then, sadly, also in thechurch, and that keeps them from
like I know I should.
(40:17):
So I'd like you to speak, or Iknow I long to, but I'm
terrified to.
Yeah, what would you say to theperson who just has that as the
major hurdle of getting the helpthey need?
It's just like no, I've beenbetrayed by people who said they
wanted help, right.
Kurt Andre (40:39):
Yeah, again, great question.
As I think about it, it'sfinding someplace safe.
I mean, I'm surprised becauseI'm a coach.
I don't do therapy.
That's the basement of theworld.
That's healing.
I'm in the space of strategyand yet when I'm working with a
client, I'm always surprised howvulnerable they get or how much
(41:03):
I learn about who they are.
I used to think initially gosh,kurt, you're really good at
what you do.
I realized that's really notwhat's going on, that my role is
not to be the hero in thoserelationships but to be the
guide, and so to be a person whocreates a safe space for others
.
If I'm that person who's afraidfinding somebody who is safe
(41:26):
and that's hard to find becausethere are people that present
themselves to be that and thenthey're not and I don't know of
a magic formula to find, becausethere are people that present
themselves to be that and thenthey're not, and I don't know of
a magic formula.
I know there are spaces.
Again, I mentioned the recoveryworld.
I know when I entered therecovery world 25 years ago, I
found more acceptance, moreauthenticity, more vulnerability
(41:46):
.
It actually scared me the firsttime when.
I went and just being surprised, and then people would share
and go.
Hey, thanks for your support andI'm thinking I didn't do
anything, because I just sathere and then I realized I am
doing something, I'm listeningto you, you're being seen, you
have a witness in your life.
We're in a small group rightnow and at its inception there
(42:09):
was a commitment that, look,we've all done small groups
before.
You and I have been in smallgroups together.
There's a lot of image managingin small groups and we just
committed as couples we're goingto start off being honest, and
so we started off the way Idescribe it not bringing in our
trophies, but just sharing ourstories, and that really set a
(42:29):
precedent.
I think of creating authentictransparency because it's a safe
place, and I think that, sadly,people might go through
multiple relationships, multipletherapists, multiple coaches
until you find that person.
Piet Van Waarde (42:44):
Yeah, and I think there's two things that I
found myself saying in ourconversations.
I may not use the same words,but I think you would kind of
identify with it.
One is that trust can be earnedright.
So in that setting where I waswith that person who was like
I've been betrayed before, Ifound myself saying you know
(43:05):
what, that's okay If you can'tgo there with me now, that's
fine.
Kurt Andre (43:10):
I want to earn your trust, but to earn trust, you
have to first overcome distrust,and that's true for everybody.
Piet Van Waarde (43:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So just giving peoplepermission, like to say, if you
need some more time to do that,awesome yeah, and I would call
that pacing them, not pullingthem into transparency, but
creating a safe place and thenallowing them.
Kurt Andre (43:31):
It's like a flower that unfolds.
You can peel that thing back.
It's not going to bloom verywell, but if you create that
space, at least it's aninvitation for them to.
It doesn't always mean they'regoing to no right.
Piet Van Waarde (43:46):
Secondly, I just encourage them to like
sometimes, when we talk about,like, the work of the Holy
Spirit and the discernment ofthe Spirit or the like, the
identification that you havewhen there's a phrase that Paul
used, my spirit identifies withyour spirit.
That I found really helpful touse in a very pragmatic way.
It's to say you know, I justpay attention, just pay
(44:08):
attention to that sense that youhave.
There are times when you can bewith somebody and you just feel
like I don't know what I wantto say and I've found myself
saying I'm paying attention tothat.
There's a part of it that couldbe an excuse like, oh, I don't
want to share.
But at a deeper level, there'slike this intuition that I think
(44:31):
we have as a result of the workof the Holy Spirit, where, if
we can pay attention to that,like in those hard places, and
say, lord, is this somebody Ican trust?
And not that we're going to getthat 100%, but I found that
it's like helpful, maybe more aslike a rejection, like this
person is starting to feel likethat other betrayal and I'm not
(44:55):
sure I want to go there withthem.
Or conversely, you know whatthis person feels safe to me.
I've experimented a little bit,I've shared a little bit.
I think I can trust them.
So doing it piecemeal and thentrusting that guidance of the
Holy Spirit, I think can be areal asset In those moments
where you know you need somebody, you want to trust somebody,
(45:16):
but this is what you can do toget there.
Kurt Andre (45:17):
But you touched on something, pete, that you
haven't used the words, but atleast my observation of what
just took place was thediscipline of self-reflection
that I really believe to bepersonally more intimate with
yourself and therefore othersprofessionally more effective.
It's predicated on your abilityto live a self-reflective life.
Up until my life crash, I'dnever live a self-reflective
(45:40):
life.
I live thin fast, not pausing,not taking time, because a
non-self-reflective life ispersonally more shallow,
professionally less effective.
So in order to discern, youhave to be quiet.
In order to get a sense of, youneed to put into your life.
So one of my disciplines is toget up early, because I'm not
(46:02):
bent that way.
Piet Van Waarde (46:03):
I saw that this morning.
I thought I got up early.
You were up before me.
Second cup of coffee.
Kurt Andre (46:10):
But that's a learned behavior for me that I was
encouraged by my mentor tojournal.
I was terrified of journaling.
If I did what?
If somebody read what I wrote?
Getting into therapy, living incommunity with others, having
it modeled for me, the living, aself-reflective life.
Because, again, going back toParker Palmer, paying attention
(46:31):
to who we are In the trainingthat I do of coaches and
consultants, over and over again, I tell them you are your tool.
It's not about a set ofcompetencies.
You'll learn them, but learningto listen to yourself is one of
the things that, when I'mcoaching somebody, I try to pay
attention.
What is it like for me to be onthe other side of them?
Because they probably makeeverybody else in their life
feel the same way.
(46:52):
And then that gives me insightinto how to come alongside them
In some ways, let them know.
Do you realize that youprobably make people feel?
Piet Van Waarde (46:59):
because this is how I feel You're like what?
Kurt Andre (47:01):
And so cultivating the discipline of
self-reflection so that you canbe aware and therein finding
discernment.
There's a reason we're told inPsalm 46.10, be still.
You can't know God if you'renot still.
And so, again, that was a learn, because being still was
terrifying for me, because whenI was still, I had to be
(47:22):
confronted by the misalignmentof my life, the fruit of my
choices, the voices in my head,the past that I buried, and
learning that.
The voices in my head, the pastthat I buried, and learning
that.
So I love that story in StarWars where Luke goes to the
Dagobah system and he's beingmentored by Yoda, and that scene
that everybody now seems toquote, from where Skywalker goes
off.
He goes into the cave, he's gothis light sword and Yoda said
(47:44):
that he doesn't need it.
And there's Darth Vader.
They duel right I'm quicklysummarizing Decapitates Darth
Vader, and we finally, as theWatchers of Star Wars, find out
who Darth Vader is, pulls themask back and it's Luke, and
Yoda was helping him understand.
To become a Jedi, to become thebest version of who you are,
you got to deal with your demons, you got to deal with yourself,
(48:05):
and I don't think you can helpothers unless you've done that
work either.
Piet Van Waarde (48:10):
Yeah, and I don't think you can help others
unless you've done that workeither.
Yeah, and I think you know I'vehad my own demons that I've had
to process, and so one of thethings that I've learned the you
know the hard way, but stillyou know, thank God I've learned
and am learning is that whatstarts out as this really
fearful journey like what am Igoing to find out?
(48:31):
Who am I going to become as aresult?
What is everybody else going tothink?
Becomes this thing where you'relike you know what?
Yes, I'm the old band back whenwe were in ORE Jars of Clay.
We are just jars of clay withour own little broken pieces,
and yet God somehow takespleasure in using that, and
(48:52):
there's something so rich aboutbeing able to be authentically
that.
To say, not just from atheological or theoretical yeah,
yeah, I'm kind of broken likeeverybody else, but to actually
own that and say, yeah, no, I'mnot proud of it, the decisions
I've made, I'm not proud of allthe things I've done, but God in
his mercy has put some piecesback together and, as a result,
I'm not proud of all the thingsI've done, but God in his mercy
has put some pieces backtogether and, as a result, I'm
(49:13):
able to be useful to his purposeand to other people.
Kurt Andre (49:16):
Yeah, there's a metaphor that we miss in the
English language in Timothy.
When Paul's talking to Timothy,he tells him to be full of
faith, which is a great concept,but the word picture that Paul
uses is you are to be a potwithout wax.
It's been translated full offaith.
And what I learned the joys ofgoing to seminary right was that
(49:36):
tinkers of the day would travelfrom town to town and they
would sell their wares, and veryoften the pots that they sold
would crack.
So the unethical seller ofthose wares will get wax and
some of the dust from the potand fill in the cracks so that
when you bought it it lookedlike it was without cracks.
But then you pour water in it,you put it in the windowsill,
the sun comes and the wax meltsand the water falls out.
(50:00):
That Paul was trying to tellTimothy look, it's okay to have
cracks, but don't be a pot withwax, don't pretend that you
don't have brokenness, becausewe all have brokenness.
And so for me, I thought I wasonly acceptable if I didn't have
cracks.
So what I did was I lived alife with wax covering up the
cracks, and obviously thatdoesn't work, and so I think
(50:23):
being okay with, not as anexcuse, my character defects or
my flaws.
I mean steps five, six andseven identify them, share with
them and then ask God to removethem.
I mean I think that everyChristian should go through 12
steps because it is the journeyof transformation and so it's
not so as Christians and for me.
I was a pot with lots of waxand I think finding safe spaces
(50:48):
to be a pot with cracks, withoutwax, and still be loved, has
been really the transformationalexperience of love and
acceptance and really becomingwho God's called me to be.
Piet Van Waarde (50:59):
I'll put an exclamation point.
That is where we're going toend.
That was awesome.
Thank you, brother.
I really appreciate you beinghere flying in all the way from.
Kurt Andre (51:09):
Florida, Virginia, wherever you were from.
We bounced around from a coupleof different places.
Piet Van Waarde (51:13):
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you, pete, and thank youfor joining us for another
Sidewalk Conversation.
So glad you were part of thisand, again, if there's something
that resonated with you that wetalked about today, always feel
free to send me a personalmessage and always feel free to
share this with somebody who youthink might be helped by it.
Thank you for joining us andjoin us again next time for
(51:39):
another Sidewalk Conversation.
Thank you for joining us for another Sidewalk
Conversation.
I'm glad to be your host todayand I'm very excited about
inviting a lifelong friend tojoin me on the pod.
We're going to be talking abouta whole series of things.
We're going to talk aboutfriendship, we're going to talk
about business and we're evengoing to work through a failure,
and so I'm excited aboutintroducing you to my guest.
But before we do, I just wantto say a personal word about
(00:24):
friendship.
You know, a lot of times we aretold that community, especially
in Christian context, we're toldthat community is so important
because we have to have peoplethat we're going to walk life
with.
We need people to be ourencouragers, our truth tellers,
our fun friends, and all ofthat's really important.
But I also find myselfresonating deeply with the
(00:45):
statement that says we are thecombination of the five people
who are closest to us.
There is a sense in which ourclosest relationships really do
shape not only who we become,but who we get to know, and the
friend that I'm introducing youtoday is somebody that has
served as a spiritual encourager.
(01:08):
He's been a leader, he's beenan example, and I have found him
to be such a person that I cango to at all seasons of life.
In fact, we have stretched 45years together and I hope those
of you who are watching have theopportunity to have such
friendships in your life,because they really are a source
of such richness, such blessing.
(01:28):
When people know you and seeyou and are part of your lives,
they bring out the best in you,and that's certainly the case
with this friend, and I hope youhave one as well.
I can't wait to see you meethim.
(01:54):
I do want to say a word ofthanks to our sponsor as we get
started today.
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They have absolutely beautifulfacilities and they are
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So that's Pickleball Kingdom,1900 North Howard Lane, and it's
a place that you need to see.
All right now let me introduceto you my good friend and
(02:36):
actually the best man for mywedding, kurt Andre hey.
Kurt, thank you for joining us.
Kurt Andre (02:42):
Oh gosh Pete, this is a huge privilege to be here.
Piet Van Waarde (02:44):
Thank you.
We introduced our audience toyour wife last week and she did
so well, so I'm just going tosay it right up front Don't suck
.
I mean like she raised the barreally high.
Kurt Andre (02:56):
I'm not surprised.
I'm not surprised.
Piet Van Waarde (02:59):
Well, I want to start by just kind of having a
conversation about friendship.
That's kind of where we startedtoday.
You and I have known each other.
We counted up the years 45years, 45 years spring of 1980
is when we met.
Yeah, so we were back incollege at that time and we
became fast friends and thenyour wife told I didn't I don't
(03:20):
know if you may have told me,but I didn't remember but your
wife told us in the last episodethat you guys kind of made a
connection at our wedding.
Kurt Andre (03:27):
Yes, we did, march 10th, so I need to take credit
for that too.
You're welcome to if you'd like.
Absolutely yeah.
Yeah, so you met at the weddingand then you got together and
Knew each other from classes butcertainly being a part of your
wedding and kind of roping herinto helping me get you into
horse and carriage, afterwards.
Piet Van Waarde (03:44):
That's right, that's how we left, yeah.
Kurt Andre (03:46):
And yeah, that was at that kind of that moment.
That's where it kind of beganNow.
Piet Van Waarde (03:50):
One of the things I've enjoyed so much
about our relationship is thatyou have kind of a philosophic
bent, as I enjoy having as well,and so I want to philosophize a
little bit about friendship.
We've known each other for 45years.
We've watched each other walkthrough a variety of seasons of
life getting sortedprofessionally and then with
(04:11):
children and crises, and greattimes too.
We did some great vacationstogether, and so, from your
perspective, what are some ofthe things that you think about?
What are some of the thingsthat you of the things that you
think about?
What are some of the thingsthat you value about deep,
lifelong friendships, and whywould it be worth the investment
for somebody to say, hey, youknow what, I think this is
(04:33):
something in life worthinvesting in.
Kurt Andre (04:40):
Well, that's a great question and, to give context,
you probably remember that Igrew up my whole life, until
college moving virtually everyyear.
So I grew up on four continents.
My dad was in the military,spoke six languages and the
military capitalized on that.
And so I found myself at thebeginning of every school year
new kids, new neighborhood,sometimes new culture, new
language.
And I remember meeting you inthe spring, and then we came
back to school in the fall andthe first thought when I saw you
(05:03):
was you're still here.
I came back to school in thefall and the first thought when
I saw you was you're still here.
And this idea of having somebodyover the course of years was
new to me, somebody who knew mystory, who was excited to see me
as much as I was excited to seethem.
That was a life experience andI think that one of the things
(05:34):
that, as I've reflected on ourrelationship, that I think it's
we've stayed in touch, we'vestayed connected and there's so
much alignment.
I mean I think we share faithtogether.
We share, I think, excitement,enthusiasm, leadership,
certainly.
So there's things that we enjoy, things that we like, things
that we're hardwired to and then, kind of woven together, the
(05:54):
commitment to stay in touch.
You know, initially we talkedabout going to New England to
plant a church.
Piet Van Waarde (06:00):
I know you're still holding that against me.
A hundred percent, I am.
Kurt Andre (06:03):
I was going to be the therapist and you were going
to be the pastor and et cetera,and we ended up going to New
England and you went to VirginiaBeach and, regardless of where
our vocations have taken us,where our calling has taken us,
to stay connected and I thinkthis dynamic of being known, the
good and the ugly, thedifficult and the celebration, I
(06:24):
know, for me has's beencathartic because I've struggled
a lot with that in my life andI feel like you've been somebody
who sees me and still loves meand that's a gift.
I don't feel like ourrelationship is conditional and
even though stretches of timewhere we haven't talked every
day for 45 years, there's beenstretches of time when we didn't
see each other and yet comeback together you, you know it's
(06:46):
kind of cliche, but people saylike, like you know, nothing
ever had, no gap, ever happened.
Piet Van Waarde (06:51):
Uh, there certainly is that dynamic of
connection and joy I want tojust camp out on that point a
little bit, because I think thatthere's something to be said
about that.
Um, because you know there werelike in the early, you know we
were like best friends incollege.
And then when we met our wives,there was like a group of four
couples.
We did a lot of things togetherand then kids came in the
picture and then it wasn't as wedidn't get in touch with as
(07:14):
often.
But you know, periodically wewould kind of touch a base with
one another.
And now recently, now the kidsare gone and we have a little
bit more independence- Right,it's been resurrected.
I think, like I've seen peoplemake the excuse that, well, it's
been a long time since we'vebeen in touch and they use that
as an excuse not to kind of goback and say you know, that was
(07:35):
a really meaningful friendship.
There may be something stillthere.
Why not reach out?
And you'd be surprised by howvaluable just making that effort
to kind of reach out and say,hey, I miss you.
You were such a good friend tome and being willing to open
that door or knock on that doorI think is such an essential
(07:57):
part of it.
And then when you do it, you'relike, oh, this is awesome,
right no-transcript.
Kurt Andre (08:26):
we saw each other at the airport and had this kid
together.
It was very purposeful, becausePete and Carol are people that
I want in my life, and so Ithink we have found that, which
has led to being here today.
Piet Van Waarde (08:40):
Which, by the way, thank you very much.
All right, let me pivot andtalk a little bit about your
professional life, because youhave done quite a bit in your
life.
You started off headed toseminary and going the pastoral
route.
While you were doing thatyou're, I think, painting houses
.
Kurt Andre (08:58):
Put us through grad school.
Piet Van Waarde (09:01):
So you have a handy side to yourself, and then
again you made anothertransition to more speaking,
consulting.
Now you have your own company,All of those things.
You might not necessarily seethe thread, obviously, between
all that, but for you, I'm sureit feels more like oh, this led
(09:23):
to that, this led to that.
How did you navigate some ofthose transitions?
What prompted them, and wasthere a grid that you used as a
way to make those decisions?
Because I think people who arewatching probably find
themselves in similar positionswhere maybe the thing that I
wanted to start to do in life isnot the thing that I'm doing
now or want to do now, but Idon't know how to make the
(09:43):
transition.
So what would you say aboutthat?
Kurt Andre (09:46):
That's a great question.
I often get asked Kurt, how didyou get to where you're doing?
Where'd you go to school?
What jobs did you have?
And as wildly successful asSimon Sinek is and he's a great
communicator and I love what alot of you hear I would
fundamentally disagree with hisinitial premise.
You know he talks about theimportant thing in life and
business is discover your why,and I would agree that's
(10:09):
incredibly important.
But to me, your why comes outof your who and starting the
journey with knowing who you are, what your passion is, what
your strengths are.
I tell people I work with, ifyou want to find your passion,
you're finding your why.
Pay attention to what you'regood at, where your strengths
are.
I tell people I work with ifyou want to find your passion,
you're finding your why.
Pay attention to what you'regood at, where your strengths
are.
I had no intention of going intostudent ministry.
You and I were interviewingpastors around Tulsa who had
(10:33):
planted churches.
Give us insight, wisdom.
What would you tell these twoyoung guys?
And I remember one of themasking me what are you doing
with your life?
And I was dating Marsha,waiting for her to finish, and
he said why don't you be ouryouth pastor.
Well, I didn't know what thatwas.
I was the only teenager in mychurch never been in the youth
ministry didn't know that was ajob and so naively said sure.
(10:54):
And that was the beginning of mediscovering wow, you can love
young people.
Get to know God.
Design a T-shirt.
Piet Van Waarde (11:01):
Tell a booger joke go on a trip and get paid
for that.
Kurt Andre (11:05):
And so I feel like I kind of backed into student
ministry, realized I wasbiblically illiterate.
We were thinking about going toNew England, so I went to
Boston for seminary and justreally fell in love with coming
alongside young people.
So there wasn't a crystallizedmoment of feeling a calling in
that direction, but being in themoment, listening to an
opportunity.
And then I think there's a guyby the name of Parker Palmer.
(11:27):
I used to listen to him on NPRpre-podcast and I remember one
episode he talked about whenoften when we're reading a book,
we're listening to somebodyspeak.
Often our temptation is to takenotes on what it is that
they're saying.
But he said something thatresonated with me.
He said the best notes that wetake are the notes we take on
ourselves, paying attention towhen somebody says something.
How does that land on you whenyou hear a concept, what stands
(11:51):
out for you about that?
And I think that the trajectoryof my life has been more about
learning to listen to myself,certainly with the influence of
others, and there's probably aformula there, but that's how I
followed my life in studentministry.
There's probably a formulathere, but that's how I followed
my life in student ministry,started to be asked to help
other student ministries and hita wall when I was 39.
Talk about that probably laterWent through a significant
(12:13):
season of trying to figure outwhat do I do now.
Had five men that camealongside me that really were
helpful in that transition.
Had a mentor who's still in mylife.
He raised an issue.
He said Kurt, why don't youthink about getting off of your
stage and helping people ontheirs?
Piet Van Waarde (12:28):
Never thought about that idea.
Oh, that's a great.
Say that again.
Kurt Andre (12:30):
That's a good one Well it was Leighton Ford, who's
been in my life since 1993.
During that season of God, whatdo I do next?
He challenged me with this ideaKurt, why don't you think about
getting off of your stage thework that you've been doing For
me it was student ministry andwhy don't you help people on
theirs?
And I was like you can do thatfor a living, and I was doing it
(12:51):
somewhat ad hoc, not certainlygetting paid for it.
And that began the journey ofwhat does it actually look like
to come alongside other peopleto help them in their area,
their industry, their platform,their role, who they are.
That caused the pivot fromlocal church ministry to really
moving into consulting andcoaching.
Piet Van Waarde (13:11):
You know, what I love about that part of the
story is, you know, sometimeswhen, especially as believers,
we talk about the leadership ofthe Holy Spirit and I can't
remember who said it to me itwas early in my ministry too
it's like a lot of times, aspastors, we're hoping that we
get light ahead of us that willshow us how to, how we're
(13:32):
supposed to proceed, where we'resupposed to go, what we're
supposed to do, and it rarelyhappens that way.
You rarely get in advance whatyou need.
It's along the way, like asyou're doing.
Kurt Andre (13:43):
Discovered on the journey?
Piet Van Waarde (13:44):
Yeah, as you're doing, discovered on the
journey.
Yeah, as you're doing things,you, you resonate with them and
you're like oh wow, this feelsreally good, this feels really
right.
This is me, you know, and thoseare the moments that become so
directional in terms of what youend up doing, and it sounds
like that's exactly whathappened yeah, I, I was never
one and there are people thathave this and I'm certainly
certainly not.
Kurt Andre (14:03):
There's no criticism here.
This idea of here's where Iwant to be, you know, at 25 or
in 40 or 50, 75.
I think as I look back and seeGod's direction Psalm 32, 8,.
The Lord promises to guide andinstruct us in the way that we
should go.
He'll counsel us with his eye.
Better understood in hindsightthan foresight that it's being
present in the moment.
(14:23):
Okay, god, bouncing off otherpeople who I respect prayerfully
, considering, that's reallybeen more the trajectory than in
five years, here's where I wantto be and then in 15 years,
here's where I want to be.
It's never been the processthat I've used.
I would argue you can, at thispoint in life you can probably
only look out three to fiveyears.
Too much changes, technology,culture shifts in life.
(14:46):
The work that I do with clients, whether it's individual,
coaching or organizational,three to five years is about as
far out as you can look in yourwindow, and how do you know to
get there?
I really believe starts withthe premise of what I call
knowing your center who are you,what are your values, your
vision, your mission, andgetting clear on that.
(15:06):
And then it unfolds.
Well, what does that expresslook like?
Again, whether that's personalor organizational, yeah, love
that.
Piet Van Waarde (15:14):
So when you find yourself in a helping
position, you're talking topeople about these kinds of
transitions, one of the thingsthat you're like.
If I were in your network ofpeople, you're helping and I was
like I think I might like to dothis.
You know, and you're alsotrying to, at the same time as a
(15:35):
believer, say, Lord, is thiswhat you're leading me to do?
And there's like a lot ofquestion marks around it all and
we would like to have moreconfidence, especially if it
feels risky.
So when people are in thatposition where they have like
some sense of what they'resupposed to do but they're not
highly confident that it's theright next step, what are some
of the things that you tell themthat they should do in order to
(15:57):
kind of move forward.
Kurt Andre (15:58):
Yeah, that's a great question and kind of the
framework I use is what I wouldcall organic intentionality.
The organic piece is Organicintentionality.
Organic intentionality, thisorganic sense of I'm sensing, I
think and what about, and thenthe intentionality is well, are
you good at that?
Is that what your passion is?
We've probably all heard ofthat Venn diagram, of the
hedgehog principle, that what amI passionate about?
(16:21):
What do I have an opportunity?
What am I naturally inclined tobe?
When you lay those three over,it's like when I was in high
school.
I loved basketball.
I went to basketball camp, Idribbled up and down the
driveway, I ended up going toactually an almost all-black
high school, and so I tried outfor the team and I think I made
it.
Only because I was a white guy,scored two points my sophomore
(16:42):
year.
I was a white guy, scored twopoints my sophomore year.
I was terrible at basketball,so I was passionate about it.
I made the team.
The problem was I sucked.
That was clearly not myhedgehog, and I think in working
with people and I also believe,juxtaposed to that, that nobody
becomes whom they have thecapacity to be by themselves I
really think that we have one ofthe most dangerous voices in
(17:05):
our head.
It's our own salesperson.
In the recovery world, theytalk about an addict who listens
to his own counsel as a personin a dangerous company right.
So I think, when you're sensingsomething, being in a position
of having somebody be on theother side of you or having wise
people to process with, to giveyou feedback of, Because I
think that you know whether it'ssomething you ate for breakfast
(17:26):
or it was the movement of theHoly Spirit, that's going to be
validated, that's going to becodified, that's going to be
reinforced and supported bywhether, again, the
intentionality, the data, thatdoesn't make sense.
I have a client in Miami whowants to launch about five
businesses and he's all excitedand he gave a great
justification for each one ofthem and, as he's telling me,
it's almost Kurt.
What should I do?
(17:46):
And I said well, you know, thenumber two reason for business
failure is managing cash flow,and there's no way I can see how
you can manage cash flow withfive new entities being launched
at the same time.
Probably all really good.
He was well, I think God'scalling me to do this.
I go well, unless you have atree with money, I don't see it
happening.
So I think that, certainly beingled by the Spirit, and also
(18:09):
processing with wise counsel,feedback, what's the data say
that it's an algebraic equationof putting those things together
which ends up resulting indiscernment.
I love that.
Piet Van Waarde (18:22):
That's a really great.
So paying attention to thenudges.
Sure, being realistic aboutyour skill set, inv.
I love that.
That's a really great.
So to pay attention to thenudges, being realistic about
your skillset, inviting somebodyelse along the way.
One of the things that I'vebeen thinking about, and I'd
love for you to comment on this,is just the value of
experimentation as well, likeespecially for people who may be
(18:43):
a little bit more seasoned inlife.
It feels to me like there'vebeen transitions I've made at
different seasons of my life,and you've always hear the
cliche well, it gets easier overtime.
Well, I'm not sure that's trueeither, because when you're
older it gets more complex overtime, well, and there's more
risk.
Well, a you feel like you shouldknow more.
(19:04):
B there may be some realfinancial implications to taking
a step that you know.
When you're young and gothardly any responsibility, it
all sounds great, but when youget older it's like okay,
there's some, there's some realrisk here.
So.
But it seems to me that there'dbe some value in just embracing
the idea of experimentation,like doing small things that can
(19:28):
give you an idea that thismight be true.
What's your perspective?
Kurt Andre (19:34):
on that Great question.
So a few years ago I got hiredby a financial service company
in New York and they wanted todo sales training about 1,200
salespeople and then leaderdevelopment for their senior
leadership across the company.
And so a number ofconversations back and forth.
I have a five-phase process atU.
It always starts with discovery.
Based on the discovery that Idid by interviewing focus groups
(19:57):
, I have some tools that I use.
I offered and said look, whydon't we just start with a pilot
?
Because he wanted to create theprogram, roll out across the
company, big guns.
And I said my experience isthat if we start small, and I
said why don't you give me thelowest performing team in your
company and then let me takethem through the process that I
think would be effective?
(20:17):
And then let's see how it goes.
Yeah, yeah.
And so BodyGovs andsurprisingly, maybe not they
became the highest producingorganization.
And then what happened for meas somebody, as a consultant or
a coach?
Piet Van Waarde (20:28):
everybody wanted you know when do we get
that?
Kurt Andre (20:33):
So you're building buy-in, you're getting, but I
think the idea of starting smallI quote from what About Bob all
the time, baby steps and inAtomic Habits which is a great
resource it's this idea thatchange doesn't come from
gigantic steps.
It comes from small steps takenover a period of time.
It's called a catalyticmechanism and I think that when
you're venturing out is to takethose steps purposely,
(20:56):
intentionally, in a particulardirection and then there's this
process that I use around youtake a step, that's an action,
and then you observe that actionand then you tell yourself a
story interpretation and thenyou repeat the action, adjust
the action or stop the action,but building into whatever you
do an iterative process ofaction.
Observation, interpretationgives you then a feedback loop
(21:19):
around should I do this, shouldI not do this?
It lowers risk, doesn'teradicate risk, but it gives you
incremental steps to know am Iheading in the right direction?
Does this make sense?
Does it work?
I mean, I mentioned the numbertwo reason for business failure.
The number one reason forbusiness failure is offering a
product or service nobody willbuy.
So you might be excited aboutit, but if you can't market it,
(21:39):
nobody's interested.
That that's not going to work.
Piet Van Waarde (21:44):
Yeah, yeah, well, really well said, all
right.
So I want to again shift alittle bit of focus.
So you've in your life you'vehad some great successes, you've
done some really importantthings, helped people and been
successful in a lot of areas ofyour life, but then you also had
a time in your life where therewas an interruption of all that
and you had to face some hardthings about yourself, and I
know this is a very personalquestion, and so I only want you
(22:07):
to feel free to engage with ithowever much detail you want to,
but that became a verysignificant, defining moment in
your life, and so tell me alittle bit about what happened
in all of that, what you learnedfrom that, and maybe some
guidance for some folks who findthemselves at a similar
(22:28):
crossroads.
Kurt Andre (22:29):
Yeah, it's a great, great question and I appreciate
your sensitivity in offering it.
It is pretty real for me thatthe first 40 years of my life
arguably things had gone reallywell.
Academically I did fine.
I swam in college, lovedseminary.
Student ministry did reallywell.
(22:50):
From an outside perspective,growth and whatnot.
But in looking back I had thehindsight now that I was really
living a compartmentalized life.
I have abuse in my background,lots of who I was I was either
in denial of or refused to lookat, believing and thinking that
(23:11):
that wouldn't really have anyimpact on my life, that I could
stay focused on the trophies,the wins, as opposed to really
looking at the difficulties andthe struggles, really looking at
the difficulties and thestruggles.
And so what began to happen forme from a ministry perspective,
as things grew, as I wasquote-unquote more successful, I
began to live more and moremisaligned with what I said was
(23:36):
true about who I am, my values,my morals, that I was living an
incredibly incongruent life.
And the more I was incongruent,the harder I spun the tale of
making it look like I was livinga congruent life and that, you
know you can only do that for solong Truth prevails.
I really thought that I couldlive a life separated from who I
(24:00):
really was, and one wouldn'tget caught.
And two, if I did, I knew mylife would be over and so all
the more perpetuated.
Not living a congruent life,not living honest, living a life
of deceit and image management.
And December 27, 2000,.
That all crashed.
That came to because truth didbecome revealed and the
(24:24):
incongruency of my life was mademanifest.
And again I have clients whoare living deceitfully and say
you know it's going to come out,because I believe truth does.
And that was a crisis.
I mean I lost my job, I lost myfamily.
I was sleeping in my car inBoston in January.
(24:44):
Wow, it was a major crisis inmy life.
But in the middle of that and Iwill get emotional there was a
group of men that said Kurt,we'll work with you.
And for two years I met withthem every week and they truly
came alongside me.
I put in septic systems, I wentback to painting.
I did whatever I could to makemoney because I lost my career.
(25:08):
I was in the church and thatwent away from me.
And in the midst of that, againtrying to figure out what does
my life look like now?
What do I do?
Because I only knew ministryand light construction, really
just painting.
Those were the things that Ihad done before.
Is that what I'm going to donow?
And it was a season of therapy,entering into the recovery
(25:32):
world and again, the combinationof those people in my life that
came alongside me, one of whommy mentor.
I remember talking to him andreally apologizing for being
such a failure.
And he's like Kurt, thisrelationship is about who you
are, not about what you do.
And for me to experience,really for the first time in my
(25:53):
life, being known and beingloved, because I still, to this
day I'm 64.
That was 25 years ago Stillstruggle with this.
If you really knew me, youwouldn't love me, and I think
part of our even coming backtogether and me telling you my
story it's like, will I be loved?
Because I grew up in a systemthat was conditional and didn't
(26:15):
really help me understand that Icould make mistakes and still
be loved.
That was a framework thatdidn't exist for me, and so for
the last 25 years it's beencontinuing in that space.
And that's when Leighton said,kurt, have you ever considered
getting off of your stage andhelping people on theirs?
That the idea of coaching cameinto mind.
I got certified to be anexecutive coach and put out a
(26:38):
shingle and started in the spacethat I knew, which was student
ministry.
I'll never forget the first guyI worked with, kevin Cox, who's
still in my life all theseyears later.
In fact, he's going to be inthe academy that I run now
training people that I do what Ido, but it's still an ongoing
journey.
There's a man in my life he's atherapist that 25 years ago
said Kurt, I want you to look inthe mirror every day.
(26:59):
And there's a sentence.
Piet Van Waarde (27:07):
I want you to say Excuse me, kurt, you're an
unrepeatable miracle of God.
Kurt Andre (27:17):
Does anyone believe that?
Still struggle with that.
But this idea of truth, tellingand being reminded and having
people hold up a mirror Incoaching.
I call coaches mirrorstraighteners Because I think
all of us look into mirrors likeat a carnival.
It is a reflection of who weare, but it's warped and part of
(27:40):
the journey for me of coachingand even consulting
organizationally isstraightening out that mirror.
I know this is the image youhave yourself, but it's not who
you are.
And so the privilege ofstraightening out that mirror,
and that's been done for me.
So a lot of my work isautobiographical.
I have no doubt that people Iwork with, companies that I come
alongside of, one helping themknow what center is, Because I
(28:03):
didn't know what my center was.
I knew what my image-managedcenter was, but really the core
of who I am, who I want to beBecause you don't know when
you're off center unless youreally know what center is
Companies you don't know whenyou've gone sideways until you
know who you are is all about.
So that's been my journey ofdoing the work to know what
(28:23):
center is, Experiencing peopleloving me for who I am, even
though I'm broken Becausebrokenness was not an acceptable
part of the equation to beloved, that I can still be
broken and be loved.
And I'm still on the journey ofworking that stuff out.
Thank you so yeah, it's changedmy life, it's become more of who
(28:43):
I am.
Well, that was very brave ofyou, thank you.
Piet Van Waarde (28:45):
So, yeah, it's changed my life, it's become
more of who I am.
Well, that was very brave ofyou, thank you.
I do want to touch on a coupleof things you said, because I
think they are so important tothe healing process you
described and I think too manypeople miss it.
So one of the things you saidearly on in your story was that
(29:06):
there was a part of your life,there was a part of the things
you experienced growing up inyour family system that you
thought you could separateyourself from by just being busy
and quote unquote doing good,like somehow just leaving that
in the past and not reallylooking at that again, believing
(29:28):
it wouldn't impact my presentRight.
That is such a common phenomenonyou know, especially like in
the broken world we live in.
People immediately assume well,you know, everybody's got their
stuff, everybody has theirbrokenness, you know it's just
like, and so they use that as anexcuse not to really deal with
it.
What would you say like why isit so important to go back and
(29:53):
revisit some of that stuff andprocess it in a healthy way,
whether it's with a counselor orwith a pastor or with other
resources?
Why is that so crucial?
Kurt Andre (30:04):
That's a great question.
So, part of my journey, I'm ina men's group.
I've been in for almost 16years now.
It's about 15 of us, same group, same group of guys.
That's facilitated by the guywho gave me that mantra, and I
learned a lot from them and oneof the guys in the group who
arguably suffered way more thanme growing up, shared with the
(30:27):
group a metaphor that he usesand it's really resonating, and
that is that when we're children, and regardless of our context
or situation, good or horriblewe learn ways of coping.
It's almost like if, grown up,there are a lot of rapids in
your life and there were in mine.
We learn to construct thislittle life raft and we get in
(30:48):
that life raft and it enables usto survive.
Those are called copingmechanisms.
But then what can happen and itcertainly was for me if we
continue to hold on to that liferaft or pull it over our
shoulder into adulthood, thosecoping mechanisms become defense
mechanisms and the very thingthat allowed us to survive as
(31:09):
children sabotages what we longfor as adults, and so my journey
first off was what constructionwent on in my life to build the
life raft that allowed me tosurvive.
You know, my therapist gave meanother great image that
behavior misaligned with who weare is an unhealthy way of
(31:29):
meeting a healthy need.
And so, for reframing that, thestruggles that I have are real,
they're okay, there's nothingwrong with them.
How I take care of them is theissue, and I was using unhealthy
, misaligned ways of meeting ahealthy need.
And so the idea that going backto learn what it is about how
(31:52):
we figured out how to surviveand being thankful for that, but
then knowing I don't need thatlife raft anymore, it served me
for a season I can let go ofthat and now learning new ways.
But I think, making theconnection, I had a client a
number of years ago was tellingme that yeah, my wife just
always is coming after me, andhe moved on.
(32:13):
I said whoa, what did you justsay?
He said what I said.
You said your wife comes afteryou.
I said look, I've met herPretty nice person and come to
find out he's a consummateconflict avoider, struggles to
deal with hard issues.
So I just asked him the questionwhat was life like for you
growing up as a kid?
I mean, how did you deal withconflict?
My dad, when he had a whiskeyin the hand, a belt in the other
(32:34):
, he would beat the shit out ofus.
Excuse my French.
He said that.
So we all hid.
I said and what happened?
Well, if you hid, you didn'tget beat up.
I said so what you learned tosurvive conflict as a child is
the same thing you're doing inyour marriage.
When there's conflict, you hide.
And there was a long pause onthe call.
He said Kurt, I've never madethe connection between what I
(32:56):
did to learn to survive as a kidis now how I deal with conflict
as an adult, and so that's whyI think it's worth not going
back and navel gazing as if it'sa major organ.
It's a belly button.
Piet Van Waarde (33:09):
Okay, I get that.
Kurt Andre (33:10):
But it's helpful, I know been, for me to go back and
figure out okay, what did I doand how is that showing up now
as an adult?
Where is it unhelpful?
Where is it helpful?
So that I can again let go ofthe life raft because I don't
need it anymore and yetunderstand, because I still get
triggered.
And the goal in life, I think,is not to not get triggered but
(33:30):
to deal with your triggersdifferently.
And somebody who is asleep tothemselves or unaware of their
past, they'll get triggered andthey'll react more like they did
as a kid than they can as anadult.
Piet Van Waarde (33:43):
So well said, like they did as a kid than they
can as an adult.
So well said.
The other piece that I wantedto talk a little bit about is
that you obviously had somepeople that came along and
really served you well, friendsthat walked with you, gave you
great advice.
One of the things that you kindof also touched on and I'd like
you to unpack it a little bitis that there's always a thought
(34:06):
in the back of your mind asyou're about to enter in a
relationship like that, like youmight conceptually know, I need
some help with this.
I need, I cannot do this alone.
So you kind of have thatthought.
But then the secondary thoughtthat almost comes right on the
heels of that is yeah, but whatwill they think of me if I tell
them?
What will?
That is yeah, but what willthey think of me if I tell them?
Will they really love me?
(34:26):
They're just going to think I'man idiot.
And especially, I think from aministry standpoint, it's even
worse, because you're like I'vesaid all these things throughout
my life and now they have tofind out this about me.
How did you get past that?
How did you finally get to aplace where you said you know
what Screw that I can't livethis way anymore.
I'm going to go ahead and behonest, I'm going to talk about
(34:50):
my stuff with somebody and I'mgoing to get this sorted out.
What was it that led you to aplace where you could finally do
that?
Kurt Andre (34:57):
Yeah, that's another great question, Pete.
Years ago I was getting readyto go overseas and was going to
do a workshop and asked to putsomething together and just I, I
believe you know God was veryhelpful in this and created a
framework of how I understandwhat it means to live in
community.
I call it a relationalconstellation and it's all based
(35:17):
on prepositions.
I think a lot of life is isbased on prepositions.
What do I mean by that?
That in this constellationidentifying what I would call
where in my life is water in?
Who is it that I learn from?
And to me, there's fourcategories.
I can read from others whom I'llnever meet, but their words
(35:38):
were wisdom that impacted mylife.
That's water.
In.
Another are people that I'llnever meet, but yet I see their
life.
I've never met Mother Teresadidn't get to, never would have,
but how she lived her life hadan impact for me.
That's water in.
The third category are peoplethat are water in.
They're occasional.
You meet them.
(35:58):
It could be a sermon, you heara talk or whatever, but they
impact.
And then the fourth category ofwater in are those
relationships that areintentional and purposeful
Mentors, pastors, coaches,therapists, and so critical, I
believe to living an authenticlife is making sure that you're
living life with water in.
(36:19):
And then there's water with.
Piet Van Waarde (36:21):
Can I just like before you move on on that?
Yeah.
And then there's water with CanI just like before you move on
on that?
Yeah.
So that fourth category ofwater in from people that are
therapists, coaches, pastors,counselors, advisors the
complexity of like, okay, I knowI need that investment, but if
I'm vulnerable they might notsee me as worthy of it.
Kurt Andre (36:50):
Or I might be terrified to be vulnerable they
might not see me as worthy of itor I might be terrified to be
vulnerable.
I met with a therapist waybefore my life crashed because I
was working too much and mywife was frustrated and arguably
my life was out of control.
And I remember going to her andshe asked me so what model did
you have as a dad growing up?
So my dad was gone all the time.
He was in military.
I didn't have a model.
And then she asked again well,kurt, what model did you have
growing up as a father?
(37:11):
I'm thinking that's not a verygood therapist.
I said I just said I didn'thave a model.
My dad was gone all the time.
Third time, same question.
Now I'm getting pissed.
You don't listen very well andthen it clicked oh, I get it the
model that I had for a father.
I didn't have one, and my dadused the military.
I was ministry, but at thatpoint in therapy I wasn't
(37:33):
willing to be vulnerable.
I was terrified that if I toldsomebody who was in a position
of water in what was going on,my life would be over, and so
fear kept me from beingvulnerable, even with people
that I knew were trustworthy,that were kind, that had my best
(37:54):
intention.
Sadly for me, it took crisis.
I mean, there are people thathave found the courage to reach
out and say I'm struggling,that's not my story.
It took a crisis for me andthen water with and using the
biblical metaphor of Paul, theaccountability, barnabas, the
(38:16):
encouragement for me to live anauthentic, transparent life,
doing life with people that knowmy story and still love me
create that safe place to allowthese 15 men we all know our
stories and yet love each otherdeeply.
But, still that's nottransformational.
There's water out, and waterout is when I'm being used in
(38:37):
the life of somebody else, evenin the 12-step program, being a
sponsor, if you're one who is aChrist follower, to disciple
others, if you're an aunt or anuncle to mentor a nephew, or a
sponsor, if you're one who is aChrist follower, to disciple
others, if you're an aunt or anuncle to mentor a nephew or a
niece.
That water in water, with waterout, finding the courage to be
honest and risking and thenprayerfully experiencing
(38:58):
vulnerability and acceptance Tome that's the authentic
transformational life.
Acceptance to me, that's theauthentic transformational life.
And shy of any one of thosedynamics juxtaposed to the
courage of being vulnerable, Idon't know how else to do it.
Piet Van Waarde (39:13):
I'm not sure I know the answer to this question
, so this is sincerely somethingI'm curious about from you.
So I've talked to people and,being a pastor over the years,
I've talked to people who cameto me and I knew something was
going on, like we had exploredto a certain degree some things
(39:35):
and we were ready to go toanother level, and they hit the
pause button and they said Idon't think I can talk about
this, because the last time Itried to talk about this I was
betrayed and I just like I usedto think that that was like a
rare occurrence, like thatdidn't happen very often, and
(39:56):
then I thought it doesn't happenthat often, in the church even
less, let's say.
But what I found is that that'sactually not true.
There's a lot of stories ofbetrayal in the culture at large
and then, sadly, also in thechurch, and that keeps them from
like I know I should.
(40:17):
So I'd like you to speak, or Iknow I long to, but I'm
terrified to.
Yeah, what would you say to theperson who just has that as the
major hurdle of getting the helpthey need?
It's just like no, I've beenbetrayed by people who said they
wanted help, right.
Kurt Andre (40:39):
Yeah, again, great question.
As I think about it, it'sfinding someplace safe.
I mean, I'm surprised becauseI'm a coach.
I don't do therapy.
That's the basement of theworld.
That's healing.
I'm in the space of strategyand yet when I'm working with a
client, I'm always surprised howvulnerable they get or how much
(41:03):
I learn about who they are.
I used to think initially gosh,kurt, you're really good at
what you do.
I realized that's really notwhat's going on, that my role is
not to be the hero in thoserelationships but to be the
guide, and so to be a person whocreates a safe space for others
.
If I'm that person who's afraidfinding somebody who is safe
(41:26):
and that's hard to find becausethere are people that present
themselves to be that and thenthey're not and I don't know of
a magic formula to find, becausethere are people that present
themselves to be that and thenthey're not, and I don't know of
a magic formula.
I know there are spaces.
Again, I mentioned the recoveryworld.
I know when I entered therecovery world 25 years ago, I
found more acceptance, moreauthenticity, more vulnerability
(41:46):
.
It actually scared me the firsttime when.
I went and just being surprised, and then people would share
and go.
Hey, thanks for your support andI'm thinking I didn't do
anything, because I just sathere and then I realized I am
doing something, I'm listeningto you, you're being seen, you
have a witness in your life.
We're in a small group rightnow and at its inception there
(42:09):
was a commitment that, look,we've all done small groups
before.
You and I have been in smallgroups together.
There's a lot of image managingin small groups and we just
committed as couples we're goingto start off being honest, and
so we started off the way Idescribe it not bringing in our
trophies, but just sharing ourstories, and that really set a
(42:29):
precedent.
I think of creating authentictransparency because it's a safe
place, and I think that, sadly,people might go through
multiple relationships, multipletherapists, multiple coaches
until you find that person.
Piet Van Waarde (42:44):
Yeah, and I think there's two things that I
found myself saying in ourconversations.
I may not use the same words,but I think you would kind of
identify with it.
One is that trust can be earnedright.
So in that setting where I waswith that person who was like
I've been betrayed before, Ifound myself saying you know
(43:05):
what, that's okay If you can'tgo there with me now, that's
fine.
Kurt Andre (43:10):
I want to earn your trust, but to earn trust, you
have to first overcome distrust,and that's true for everybody.
Piet Van Waarde (43:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So just giving peoplepermission, like to say, if you
need some more time to do that,awesome yeah, and I would call
that pacing them, not pullingthem into transparency, but
creating a safe place and thenallowing them.
Kurt Andre (43:31):
It's like a flower that unfolds.
You can peel that thing back.
It's not going to bloom verywell, but if you create that
space, at least it's aninvitation for them to.
It doesn't always mean they'regoing to no right.
Piet Van Waarde (43:46):
Secondly, I just encourage them to like
sometimes, when we talk about,like, the work of the Holy
Spirit and the discernment ofthe Spirit or the like, the
identification that you havewhen there's a phrase that Paul
used, my spirit identifies withyour spirit.
That I found really helpful touse in a very pragmatic way.
It's to say you know, I justpay attention, just pay
(44:08):
attention to that sense that youhave.
There are times when you can bewith somebody and you just feel
like I don't know what I wantto say and I've found myself
saying I'm paying attention tothat.
There's a part of it that couldbe an excuse like, oh, I don't
want to share.
But at a deeper level, there'slike this intuition that I think
(44:31):
we have as a result of the workof the Holy Spirit, where, if
we can pay attention to that,like in those hard places, and
say, lord, is this somebody Ican trust?
And not that we're going to getthat 100%, but I found that
it's like helpful, maybe more aslike a rejection, like this
person is starting to feel likethat other betrayal and I'm not
(44:55):
sure I want to go there withthem.
Or conversely, you know whatthis person feels safe to me.
I've experimented a little bit,I've shared a little bit.
I think I can trust them.
So doing it piecemeal and thentrusting that guidance of the
Holy Spirit, I think can be areal asset In those moments
where you know you need somebody, you want to trust somebody,
(45:16):
but this is what you can do toget there.
Kurt Andre (45:17):
But you touched on something, pete, that you
haven't used the words, but atleast my observation of what
just took place was thediscipline of self-reflection
that I really believe to bepersonally more intimate with
yourself and therefore othersprofessionally more effective.
It's predicated on your abilityto live a self-reflective life.
Up until my life crash, I'dnever live a self-reflective
(45:40):
life.
I live thin fast, not pausing,not taking time, because a
non-self-reflective life ispersonally more shallow,
professionally less effective.
So in order to discern, youhave to be quiet.
In order to get a sense of, youneed to put into your life.
So one of my disciplines is toget up early, because I'm not
(46:02):
bent that way.
Piet Van Waarde (46:03):
I saw that this morning.
I thought I got up early.
You were up before me.
Second cup of coffee.
Kurt Andre (46:10):
But that's a learned behavior for me that I was
encouraged by my mentor tojournal.
I was terrified of journaling.
If I did what?
If somebody read what I wrote?
Getting into therapy, living incommunity with others, having
it modeled for me, the living, aself-reflective life.
Because, again, going back toParker Palmer, paying attention
(46:31):
to who we are In the trainingthat I do of coaches and
consultants, over and over again, I tell them you are your tool.
It's not about a set ofcompetencies.
You'll learn them, but learningto listen to yourself is one of
the things that, when I'mcoaching somebody, I try to pay
attention.
What is it like for me to be onthe other side of them?
Because they probably makeeverybody else in their life
feel the same way.
(46:52):
And then that gives me insightinto how to come alongside them
In some ways, let them know.
Do you realize that youprobably make people feel?
Piet Van Waarde (46:59):
because this is how I feel You're like what?
Kurt Andre (47:01):
And so cultivating the discipline of
self-reflection so that you canbe aware and therein finding
discernment.
There's a reason we're told inPsalm 46.10, be still.
You can't know God if you'renot still.
And so, again, that was a learn, because being still was
terrifying for me, because whenI was still, I had to be
(47:22):
confronted by the misalignmentof my life, the fruit of my
choices, the voices in my head,the past that I buried, and
learning that.
The voices in my head, the pastthat I buried, and learning
that.
So I love that story in StarWars where Luke goes to the
Dagobah system and he's beingmentored by Yoda, and that scene
that everybody now seems toquote, from where Skywalker goes
off.
He goes into the cave, he's gothis light sword and Yoda said
(47:44):
that he doesn't need it.
And there's Darth Vader.
They duel right I'm quicklysummarizing Decapitates Darth
Vader, and we finally, as theWatchers of Star Wars, find out
who Darth Vader is, pulls themask back and it's Luke, and
Yoda was helping him understand.
To become a Jedi, to become thebest version of who you are,
you got to deal with your demons, you got to deal with yourself,
(48:05):
and I don't think you can helpothers unless you've done that
work either.
Piet Van Waarde (48:10):
Yeah, and I don't think you can help others
unless you've done that workeither.
Yeah, and I think you know I'vehad my own demons that I've had
to process, and so one of thethings that I've learned the you
know the hard way, but stillyou know, thank God I've learned
and am learning is that whatstarts out as this really
fearful journey like what am Igoing to find out?
(48:31):
Who am I going to become as aresult?
What is everybody else going tothink?
Becomes this thing where you'relike you know what?
Yes, I'm the old band back whenwe were in ORE Jars of Clay.
We are just jars of clay withour own little broken pieces,
and yet God somehow takespleasure in using that, and
(48:52):
there's something so rich aboutbeing able to be authentically
that.
To say, not just from atheological or theoretical yeah,
yeah, I'm kind of broken likeeverybody else, but to actually
own that and say, yeah, no, I'mnot proud of it, the decisions
I've made, I'm not proud of allthe things I've done, but God in
his mercy has put some piecesback together and, as a result,
I'm not proud of all the thingsI've done, but God in his mercy
has put some pieces backtogether and, as a result, I'm
(49:13):
able to be useful to his purposeand to other people.
Kurt Andre (49:16):
Yeah, there's a metaphor that we miss in the
English language in Timothy.
When Paul's talking to Timothy,he tells him to be full of
faith, which is a great concept,but the word picture that Paul
uses is you are to be a potwithout wax.
It's been translated full offaith.
And what I learned the joys ofgoing to seminary right was that
(49:36):
tinkers of the day would travelfrom town to town and they
would sell their wares, and veryoften the pots that they sold
would crack.
So the unethical seller ofthose wares will get wax and
some of the dust from the potand fill in the cracks so that
when you bought it it lookedlike it was without cracks.
But then you pour water in it,you put it in the windowsill,
the sun comes and the wax meltsand the water falls out.
(50:00):
That Paul was trying to tellTimothy look, it's okay to have
cracks, but don't be a pot withwax, don't pretend that you
don't have brokenness, becausewe all have brokenness.
And so for me, I thought I wasonly acceptable if I didn't have
cracks.
So what I did was I lived alife with wax covering up the
cracks, and obviously thatdoesn't work, and so I think
(50:23):
being okay with, not as anexcuse, my character defects or
my flaws.
I mean steps five, six andseven identify them, share with
them and then ask God to removethem.
I mean I think that everyChristian should go through 12
steps because it is the journeyof transformation and so it's
not so as Christians and for me.
I was a pot with lots of waxand I think finding safe spaces
(50:48):
to be a pot with cracks, withoutwax, and still be loved, has
been really the transformationalexperience of love and
acceptance and really becomingwho God's called me to be.
Piet Van Waarde (50:59):
I'll put an exclamation point.
That is where we're going toend.
That was awesome.
Thank you, brother.
I really appreciate you beinghere flying in all the way from.
Kurt Andre (51:09):
Florida, Virginia, wherever you were from.
We bounced around from a coupleof different places.
Piet Van Waarde (51:13):
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you, pete, and thank youfor joining us for another
Sidewalk Conversation.
So glad you were part of thisand, again, if there's something
that resonated with you that wetalked about today, always feel
free to send me a personalmessage and always feel free to
share this with somebody who youthink might be helped by it.
Thank you for joining us andjoin us again next time for
(51:39):
another Sidewalk Conversation.
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