October 23, 2025 • 44 mins
Worship can be the shared language that mends divides when we move from a multi-ethnic crowd to a truly multicultural experience shaped by real people and real stories. Joel Salabarria joins us to unpack relationship-first leadership, Worship Society, and how unity grows when we stop policing styles and start practicing cultural humility.
• redefining worship as a whole-life response
• sponsor spotlight on Tenfold Counseling
• Joelle’s tour with Girls Gone Bible and mentoring role
• the vision and structure of The Worship Society
• relationship before accountability for creatives
• Flow Nights: unscripted, Spirit-led gatherings and testimonies
• multi-ethnic vs multicultural: why the difference matters
• designing from parking lot to altar with cultural humility
• style wars, ego, and measuring response the right way
• worship as a bonding agent for a divided culture
• prayer for unity, wisdom, and courage
Check out Worship Society. If you want to be in production, hospitality, greeting, setup teardown, you know, the doors are open.
Supporting people in KC, those across the US, and this podcast to be the best they can be.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waarde (00:00):
Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversation.
My name is Pete Van Wart.
I'm your host today.
And I want to start ourconversation by asking you to
consider a question.
And that is, what is the firstthing that comes to mind when
you hear the word worship?
Now I'll tell you that answerfor me would be depends on when
(00:21):
you ask me.
Like when I grew up and I heardthe word, oh, it's time for us
to go to worship, there wasnothing inside of me that says,
oh, I'm looking forward to that.
In fact, it was the part of theweek that I dreaded the most.
We called it a worship service,but it was nothing that
elicited a response of love orjoy or or meaning.
(00:44):
It just was the longest hour ofthe week for me.
Which was such a um a sadthing, really, because once I
came to know the Lord, Irealized that worship is meant
to be the most beautiful part oflife.
And it's actually a very broadpart of life.
In fact, if you read thescriptures, you'll find that
(01:06):
everything we do can be an actof worship.
But there is this season orthis time where we get a chance
to gather together as acommunity and express our
worship to God.
Now, the reason that this hasbeen on my heart a lot these
days is because I've beenfinding myself wondering what is
(01:26):
it that can join or bringChristians together in light of
so many things that arehappening in our culture that
tear us apart.
So whether we're talking aboutthe politics, whether we're
talking about ethnicity, whetherwe're talking about worship
style, there's like all theseconversations that happen, and
then they say people who say,Well, if you're part of that
(01:46):
camp, then I can have nothing todo with you.
What bridges that gap?
And my contention is that ithas to do something with
worship.
And that's why I'm so excitedabout my guest today, because
he's one of my favorite worshipleaders.
We've had a chance to worktogether in various settings,
and I just love his heart forGod.
I love his heart for worship.
And I think after ourconversation today, you'll love
(02:09):
him in a greater degree as well,if you don't already.
So I'm excited to introduce himto you and thank you for
joining us.
Before we begin, and Iintroduce my guests, I want to
(02:32):
say a thank you to our sponsor.
Our sponsor today is uh theCounseling Center in Kansas
City, Tenfold Counseling.
These folks have beensupporters of this work from the
very beginning.
And one of the things that Ithink has motivated them to be
part of supporting the Van BoardFoundation and all the work
(02:53):
that we do through it is becausethey understand at a very core
level that people need resourcesand tools to work through the
issues and challenges of life.
And so, therefore, I just wantto again support them and the
work that they're doing.
They do work out of obviouslyout of Kansas City, but they
also do things online and viavideo.
(03:13):
And so, if there's a part ofyour life where you need some
expertise, some support, someadvice, some counseling, they
are a full service operation.
They do marriage counseling,they work with teens, they have
all kinds of resources.
So tenfold counseling.
We'll put the link down in thenotes below, but I encourage you
(03:34):
to check them out if that'ssomething that you or your
family member needs.
All right, now without anyfurther delay, I want to
introduce my guest this week.
He's back all the way fromseason one, Joelle Salabaria.
Hey, let's go.
Love it.
Glad to be here.
Oh man, I'm so glad to haveyou.
(03:54):
You know, we were alwaysalready getting into it before
we started recording.
I'm like, hey, no, save yoursave your best.
Man, something about goodconversation.
Yeah, it is.
All right.
Well, uh, for those who, youknow, may have seen you in our
first season, uh, that that was,I think, three or four years
ago now.
Uh, you've been doing somethings.
(04:16):
Yes, and so just bring us up tospeed on uh kind of what's been
keeping you busy.
You have a new kid.
I mean, come on.
Joel Salabarria (04:24):
Yeah, we had a we had a baby born July 4th.
Oh, wow.
This year.
All right.
Um, she was about a month earlybecause of some complications,
but when I tell you everythinghappened the way it was supposed
to happen, God was all overthat thing.
That and by that thing I meanthe the ex the circumstances and
(04:44):
the experience.
She's perfect, she's she's loudand full of life and bossy and
all the all the things you need.
She commands the room and thehouse.
Um, but I'm madly in love withher.
Um I I love being able to umsee her every day.
Um but yeah, we uh, you know,the kids are older now, they're
(05:07):
both in the same school.
Um and I'm traveling a lot morenow.
Uh still on tour with GirlsGone Bible.
Piet Van Waarde (05:16):
Um that's a new thing though, right?
Yeah.
Relatively like Oh, right.
Joel Salabarria (05:19):
Yeah, that was after Yeah, so that started last
year.
So it's been a little over ayear now that I've been
traveling with them, and um,that's been a cool journey just
to be.
Because you've been like, if Iremember right, you've been kind
of mentoring them as well.
Like Yeah, so yeah, I've I'veact um I kind of play the role
of like a big brother mentoringbehind the scenes um in their
(05:40):
ministry walk outside of thepodcast.
Um so I don't really mentor onthe pat podcast side.
They're they're they got thatin spades, but um walking the
walk, you know, on the ministryside, I've been able to partner
along with them and and be a bigbrother.
That's awesome.
Yeah, it's been really cool towalk the journey with them.
Piet Van Waarde (05:59):
And that's kind of blown up too, that whole
thing.
Joel Salabarria (06:02):
Yeah, yeah, they're they're amazing.
And they're I think the worldhas yet to see the fullness of
how God wants to use both ofthem.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (06:10):
What's what's their basic premise for those
who don't know?
Joel Salabarria (06:12):
So they started off wanting to share the
journey of navigating the Bibletogether.
Um, Aria just come into thefaith, and uh, they wanted to
learn how to read the Bibletogether.
So they started it off likethat, and it's inspired so many
young adults across the nationand even outside of um our
country for young adult peopleto really dive into the word of
(06:37):
God.
It's crazy to see at everyvenue how many people in that 18
to 35 age gap showing up withphysical Bibles and highlighters
and pens.
Wow, you know, ready to diginto the word.
And so um Angela and Ari,they're they're they're a gift
to the kingdom for sure, and I'msuper honored.
Piet Van Waarde (07:00):
So do you lead worship before the event?
Yes.
Joel Salabarria (07:02):
So every stop, 30 minutes about 30 minutes
before, we just go into worship,we flow a little bit, and um,
it's it's it's a beautifulexperience.
Honestly, um I I feel like akid, you know.
That's why even saying thatlike they treat me as a big
brother, I feel like a kidrunning around with them too.
And I forget that I'm 41.
(07:23):
And uh, but they're so honoringand they're so loving, and I'm
so uh blessed to be on the roadwith them.
That's so cool.
Yeah, and then you have thislittle other thing on the side
called the Worship Society.
Yeah, man.
The Worship Society, officiallythree years old this month,
October.
Um super excited about what Godhas been doing.
(07:43):
Specifically this last year, Ithink it's been where
everybody's catching the visionfull-fledged and starting to run
with it.
Um, we're we're literallyhaving conversations of chapters
outside of Austin to startkicking off worship societies in
other cities.
And so we're really excitedabout that.
(08:04):
Um give me the basic premise.
Like, what is the kind ofphilosophy vision behind it?
So the worship society, and I'mgonna try to do this in the
shortest version as possible.
It's hard to do it.
I've tried a couple differenttimes.
It's hard, but this is what itis.
I believe that worship societywill be a space for creatives
(08:24):
and leaders in the in the faith,in the church, in the local
church, to find community, tofind mentorship, to find
sandboxes to figure out whatelse is inside, to workshop
those things out, but also findauthentic relationship with
fellow believers, fellowcreatives that are not just
trying to be buddy buddies, butare actually trying to walk life
(08:46):
together and be accountable toeach other.
So we believe that there's noreal accountability or effective
accountability outside ofrelationship.
Yeah, I think too many times weskip the relationship part and
we want to hold peopleaccountable.
And even if you're speaking thetruth, the lack of relationship
part is what makes the processof accountability longer.
Piet Van Waarde (09:10):
Yeah.
Joel Salabarria (09:11):
Right.
But if we're friends, well,we're hiding from each other as
well.
Piet Van Waarde (09:14):
Right.
You know, right?
Joel Salabarria (09:15):
We're trying to, yeah, I still look good in
front of you.
But when we're friends andwe're we're walking together,
David and Jonathan walkingtogether, then there can be some
accountability there.
There can also be protectionthere, right?
Yeah, there's a covering whenthere's relationship there that,
hey, bro, like I feel likesomething's off.
You know, you're the way you'reinteracting is a little off.
(09:36):
What's going on?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you only can really sensethat or feel that difference if
there's relationships, like havebeing a parent.
Yeah, your daughter'stalkative, and then for a week
straight, she's not talkative.
That's an alarm.
Yeah.
You're like, hey, what's goingon?
Right, right, right.
But that's relationship.
And so we believe thatrelationship is very important
for the creative community.
In this day and age, creativesare used as machines so many
(10:00):
times.
So true.
So many times.
And they're so they're so goodat what they do that it's almost
non-existent to think thatthey're human and they got drama
too.
They're dealing with lust,they're dealing with
pornography, they're dealingwith depression, they're dealing
(10:22):
with um drug addiction.
But we've mastered, I'm good,I'm blessed and highly favored,
depending on which church youcome from.
Um and I just want to create aspace where suffering alone
doesn't exist in our community.
And so that's what we do.
On top of that, we do our ownworship events, our own worship
(10:42):
gatherings to put these thingsinto action.
Um, sandboxes.
I believe that, you know, everymusician is not just a
musician.
You know, how many, how many,how many great communicators we
know now that if you were to askthem, they started off as a
musician, you know, and I thinkthere's a lot more than that, a
lot more of those in ourcommunity, but we don't really
(11:04):
provide a lot of spaces for thatto be cultivated.
And so I'm just hoping thatWorship Society can be a giant
sandbox for people to find whatelse God has put inside of them
without judgment, withoutabusive critique, um, but
genuine mentorship and guidanceand space to screw it up.
Piet Van Waarde (11:25):
Yeah, you know, and and well, one of the things
I love, because I've been at acouple of your events and and
and I think you usuallyintroduce it, and correct me if
I'm not getting exactly thespeech right, but um, it's
something to the effect of, hey,listen, I want to create a
space where you don't have to beon, where you're just here,
you're among fellow creatives,so we get each other, and we're
(11:48):
just gonna create some room forthe Holy Spirit to do a work in
each of our hearts.
We're gonna sing, we're gonnaenjoy each other's company.
There's poetry, there'ssharings, they're different,
like it just flows like somepeople lead, and then all of a
sudden somebody else is leading.
And yeah, it's just it's justit's a wee thing.
Joel Salabarria (12:04):
It's a wee thing, it's so cool, it's a wee
thing, very, very unique.
Yeah, we do it together.
This last year we launchedsomething last year around this
time called Flow Nights.
Um, so our baby is housepop-ups.
We go from house to house,which those have become way more
exclusive, which is why youdon't see it on Facebook as
much.
Because honestly, the housescan't handle that many people.
(12:27):
The air conditioning justdoesn't work.
So we ain't trying to pay fornobody's new air conditioning
system.
So that's a you got to be inthe know to know when we do
house pop-ups.
But flow nights has become howwe connect with the community as
a whole.
We go from church to church,and it's literally what it's
called.
It's a flow night.
(12:48):
We start off with prayer andmaking it known that Holy
Spirit, we want you to have yourway.
We have no set list, we have notracks, there's no Proposenter
lyrics, um, and we don't knowwhat's gonna happen.
And it's and it's so far, Godhas blessed and breathed on
every single one, and it's beenamazing.
(13:09):
I think the shortest one we hadwas three hours.
It's it's been crazy.
It's been crazy, and it's beenso beautiful.
We've seen healing, we've seenmiracles, we've seen testimonies
for you for you older peoplethat remember testimony service.
We're bringing that backbecause there's something about
hearing God working in somebodyelse's life.
(13:30):
Of course, it it activates thatfaith in you, and so we we've
brought that back.
Um, and it's verymulticultural,
multi-generational,generational.
We we don't hide from nothing.
We want Holy Spirit tocompletely have his way.
And then at any point, singersare swapping out, musicians are
(13:52):
swapping out.
I don't dictate none of that.
They do it on their own becausethey because the vision is
understood at this point.
Piet Van Waarde (13:59):
Yeah, nice.
I love it.
Joel Salabarria (14:00):
Yeah, so if people want to know more about
where those things happen, howdo they get so the best thing to
do right now is to go to theworshipsociety.net.
All right, and there's athere's a button on there that
you can click to join or findout more.
Um, and you'll get worshipsociety's actual phone number,
(14:20):
which I don't have memorized.
Um but the website's the bestplace um to go to, and then of
course our social media, theworship society, or my personal
social media, j dot solabriamusic.
Um, and you we'll we'll we'llput all that in the notes here.
Piet Van Waarde (14:35):
Sure.
It'll be great.
Joel Salabarria (14:36):
We'll definitely stay connected that
way.
Um, we're actually announcingum this will be right here, you
know, announcing that we areopening the doors for building
the team bigger.
We need help now.
Um, it's getting crazy, and sowe need um people to jump in and
help.
So if you want to be inproduction, hospitality,
(14:58):
greeting, um, setup teardown,you know, the doors are open.
We need help.
Piet Van Waarde (15:04):
So ask you have not because you ask not.
So I love it.
Yeah, all right.
Well, cool.
Well, I want to shift gears alittle bit.
Yeah, let's do it.
Um, one of the conversations uhthat we've, and I I want to
just say this publicly, youknow, I have just loved our
relationship.
I love the chances that we havegotten to do things together.
You write in my newsletterevery week.
(15:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's just it's beenawesome to have uh this
partnership.
Um and one of the conversationswe've had in the time that
we've known each other is thisdistinction between multi-ethnic
congregations and multiculturalworship.
And usually those terms areused interchangeably.
And one of the things that youhelped me understand is that
(15:48):
those are those are differentthings.
They're both valuable, yes, butthey are they are different.
And so I wonder if you can juststart by talking a little bit
about the difference and thenits influence on worship.
Joel Salabarria (16:01):
Yeah.
So I think a lot of the timesthe confusion is that um because
we have a lot of differentethnicities in our church, that
that makes us multiautomatically makes us
multicultural.
And that's actually notautomatic, right?
So multi-ethnic is obviouslygood, you know, all people
belong, should be, should beable to worship together, but
(16:23):
multicultural is actuallysomething that you put in place
to represent multicultures,right?
And so saying we'remulticultural because we have
multi-ethnics is actually notall the way honest if we're not
being intentional abouteverything that entails in being
(16:44):
mindful of the people that goto our church or are part of our
communities.
And so if I have all thesemulti-ethnics, but I don't
actually do the work to studythe study who I'm serving, how
can I be multicultural?
How can I be, how can I claimto be multicultural, but I don't
understand your culture?
(17:05):
So if I'm gonna bemulticultural, and if that's the
intention, then I need to bewilling to do the work to
understand the differentcultures and how they think and
being uh uh practicing culturalhumility, right?
Being aware of my own culturewhile also learning somebody
else's culture.
(17:25):
So I don't have to I don't haveto eliminate my culture to
learn yours.
But if I want to say that youbelong here and I want to be
multicultural, then I need to dothe work to learn your culture
so that I can do a good job ofstewarding the opportunity to
represent that in our worshipexperience.
The reality is that peopledetermine whether they're gonna
(17:48):
come back to a church in thefirst seven minutes, maybe less,
of walking in.
That's the parking lot.
That's yeah, you know, so so wehave we have people that come
from cultures that don't feelcomfortable sending their kids
to child care because of theirculture.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's important to understand.
(18:09):
How can I how can I make thateasier to navigate for this
person that goes to my church?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right?
This looks good for thisculture, but for this culture,
it's like, uh I don't know.
Um the even down to like thekind of coffee we sell at the
coffee shop, you know, thisculture really likes this coffee
(18:31):
coffee.
This culture really.
So I'm not saying likeeverything needs to be
completely revamped, but weshould be intentional about
figuring out how we can be moremulticultural from the parking
lot all the way to the stage.
You know, there's certaincultures that are always late.
You know what I'm saying?
I'm not gonna point no fingers,but there's coach, some
(18:53):
cultures that are always late.
There's some cultures that arealways extremely early.
How can we still feel, youknow, that you know, if you've
ever been late to something thatyou really want to be on time
for, there's a frustration andanxiety that comes when you're
pulling up because you knowyou're missing out on what you
want to be on time for.
How can we meet that and calmthat down?
(19:14):
How can we be mindful of thatand that person feels and not
make a moral judgment about it?
Right.
And that person feels seen, andnow they feel like their
culture is a part of the bigpicture.
Piet Van Waarde (19:27):
Now you're gonna probably suggest that
there's a a good reason to movebeyond multi-ethnic, to say, you
know what, yeah, that's that'sa good start, you know, like
great, but be intentional aboutmoving to a multicultural
experience.
And what would you say is thebenefit of doing so?
(19:47):
Like, why would that be animportant mission to take on?
Joel Salabarria (19:54):
So I think my first question would be if do we
really want to do that?
Cause I because I could say whywe should, but some people
don't want to do that.
And I don't think this might becontroversial.
I don't think that it'severybody's assignment to
provide that kind of space.
Yeah, I don't think everybodyhas that gifting to provide that
(20:15):
kind of space.
But we got to be careful whenwe say we're multicultural and
we're not doing the work.
So if that's the if that's thegoal to be multicultural or
that's the title we want to runwith, then I think it's the
reason it's important is becausepeople will lower their
(20:36):
expectations for the sake ofjust finding something close
enough.
Yeah.
Um and I think it's adisservice to the to to to the
multi-ethnic people that bringso much rich culture from where
they come from.
And I think it's a it's a miss.
It's a it's a massive miss tothink that this culture, this
(20:58):
ethnicity, this um nationalitydoesn't have something to offer
that would make us betterbecause we figured out how to do
well in our own culture.
Piet Van Waarde (21:08):
And I and I think going back to the point
that we started the programwith, don't you think, and this
is my contention, and I hope Ihope you agree.
It's okay.
And you could be you coulddisagree too.
Yes, sir.
Um but the idea is that if weare talking about bridging a
divide and and and we're sayingin order to be part of this
(21:31):
community, you have to everybodyhas to adopt this culture,
yeah.
Then in one sense, there's likethe in people and the out
people.
And like you said, some peopleare willing to deal with that
because it's least close.
But if we are saying, like,like could we create even a
deeper kind of conversation anda deeper kind of unity when we
(21:54):
give expression within the samecontext for people who are
obviously from differentcultures in our context.
So if we do some things that,like, and we used the
illustration earlier about likesome gospel or Latino or uh CCM,
like if it's just one of those,then that's gonna everybody's
(22:15):
gotta fit into that.
But if you have like asmattering, right, and people
feel like, oh, they know mylanguage, like there are people
here who probably understandmore about me and my perspective
than I thought coming in.
Joel Salabarria (22:28):
Yeah, I mean, it creates trust, it creates um
safety in that space.
Like, okay, like I matter inthis context as well, too.
You know, I genuinely believeGod loves collaboration.
And so when we have theseopportunities to collaborate, we
should do our best to do that.
(22:49):
And here's the thing we're whenwe're talking about
environments that have a staffthat's designated to cultivating
experiences that arelife-giving and thought about
from every single angle, thatneeds to be part of the
conversation, right?
You know, like that that needsto be part of the conversation.
(23:09):
Okay, hey, you know, 30% of ourcongregation is black and
brown.
How can we better represent thepeople that are part of our
community and that we'reserving?
How can we do a better job?
It's not gonna happenovernight, but we need to have
the conversation.
We need to bring the people tothe table and figure out it's
(23:31):
not just putting a black personon a graphic.
That that doesn't check thebox.
We have to figure out how fromthe parking lot to the altar
call are we being mindful ofevery every aspect of culture
that comes when it comes to ourchurch.
And no, you're not gonna pleaseeverybody.
(23:51):
And I think it's a heartposture matter.
I think it I think it has tomatter that um we have a strong
Spanish community.
How can we better representthat?
You know, we have a strong umblack community.
How can how can we make surethat we're honoring of
representing that culture aswell too?
When we have the resources todo it.
(24:13):
That's and so because you know,it in context, everybody can't
do that.
Right, right.
And so I don't want nobody tofeel like they're missing God
because they're not able to dothat.
Um, I think it's when we startwaving the flag of
multicultural, it's like, butare we though?
You know, because if I start ifI bust out with Fred Hammond
(24:33):
and everybody just looks at melike a cow looking at a new
gate, we find out real quick howoh, we're not that cultural.
You know, there's not a lot ofmulti going on unless I sing a
song that you know.
And a lot of times this is thedanger, is that we call it
fusion or multi-got ormulticultural because the singer
(24:56):
is a person of color addingseasoning to the song.
It's like, yo, like I'm it'smore than that.
Yeah, the chord progressionsmatter, the writing style
matters, the the the rhythmmatters, like all of that plays
a part in different styles, youknow.
And so I think caring about themom that's a single mom coming
(25:21):
from um a community maybe whereleaving kids with somebody else
is not comfortable, beingmindful of that person mattering
to, and how can we create anenvironment that communicates
safety, not forcing her toassimilate to that, but like,
hey, we get it.
And so maybe that means beingmindful of what our staff looks
(25:45):
like as a whole, you know, ourvolunteers look like as a whole,
the color schemes, the the thedecorations, like everything
plays a part, right?
You know, and we know thatbecause we set up our house the
way we want it to look whenpeople want to come.
Like this is the kind ofenvironment you're walking in.
So we we know we know we justgotta figure out what actually
(26:07):
matters as a whole when we wantto say multicultural versus
multi-ethnic.
You have a lot of ethnic peoplein your church, but your
experience is not multicultural,and that there's I'm not saying
that that's bad.
No, I I hear you because I'mwith it, I like all the
cultures, I want to go to all ofthem, and so um I just you
know, I I chuckle a little bitwhen I hear people say
(26:31):
multicultural, and I go and I'mlike, No, this is the same as
the other place, you know, it'sjust the the the congregation is
multi-ethnic, yeah, but whatwe're experiencing isn't.
Piet Van Waarde (26:45):
All right.
Well, let me um again do alittle uh uh turn on the
conversation.
Okay.
Um so one of my contentions,and again, we were talking a
little bit about this before wegot out on the air, um, is that
worship in and of itself has abonding capacity for people.
And and and that one of thereasons why you've created
(27:08):
worship society is for thatreason.
Yeah.
Is like like we need to createa space where people can connect
to God, which will draw themtogether.
Um we we used to, when Caroland I were doing premarital
counseling, one of the things wewould say to people is that um
it's like a triangle, you know,if you get closer to God and
you're both intent on thatjourney to God, there's gonna be
(27:29):
some connection that happenswhere you get closer too.
So it's just like the things gotogether.
And uh I've been thinkingrecently that that's true in a
broader sense too.
It's not just in marriage.
I mean, it's like incommunities where if we can get
people to focus in on the Lord,then even if we have some
differences uh, you know, aboutstyle of music or politics or
(27:53):
culture, we we can we can findcommon ground.
Like the Holy Spirit doessomething in that context.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour experiences with that and
and and why you think thathappens or what people can do to
facilitate that happening.
Give me a little bit of yourperspective on that.
Joel Salabarria (28:10):
Yeah, I definitely agree that what you
know, a worship experience ormusic, if we if we just kind of
define it a little bit harder,music, regardless of the style,
naturally brings peopletogether.
If you're at a cookout and theystart playing certain kind of
music, everybody starts dancing.
Everybody starts smiling, theythey have to go like you know,
(28:32):
you're rocking, right?
Because you do your mind justwent to that moment.
It just naturally does that,right?
But I think the enemy alsounderstands that too.
And the enemy is very muchaware that division needs to
happen at every spot.
And so I feel like division hasinfiltrated music for years,
even before you know I was born.
(28:54):
You know, it's it's it'sinfiltrated this style is better
than that style, this style ismore holier than this style.
Um, this is worship, that'sgospel.
And I just like I disagree withthat wholeheartedly because if
you go to different places inthe country in the in the world,
worship is gonna sounddifferent everywhere you go,
right?
Right.
And I refuse to believe thatthe Holy Spirit is limited,
(29:19):
Jesus is limited to a preferencein style.
And I think we as a communityneed to stop putting each other
down because our styles aredifferent.
And when our eyes are focusedon worshiping Jesus and offering
a reasonable sacrifice, whichis us, then it doesn't even
matter.
(29:39):
That's not to say that theconversation around the hurt
that's happened because ofracism and isms as a whole in
church need to be had, but let'snot, as creatives, I wish that
we would stop contributing tothat with drawing a line um in
genres.
I think when we're worshipingChrist and our hearts are
(30:04):
focused on that, it that it hasno room for that.
It has no space for that.
And people get to see andexperience the different
cultures when we come togetherand put our egos aside, put our
hurt aside for that moment, forthat experience.
People get to experiencesomething that they maybe
(30:26):
wouldn't have ever experienced.
And then they get, it's like abug.
It gets stuck on them, youknow, and it's it's like you
just want more of that.
And so I do believe thatworship can be um the the the
glue or the the antidote, right,for bringing people together.
Because I ultimately believeJesus is the answer for
(30:50):
everything that we're walkingthrough right now.
All the hatred, all thedivision, all the the ugly
things that we're experiencingin the world right now, you
know, the Jesus is the answer.
The gospel still remains.
Piet Van Waarde (31:02):
Sounds so cliche, but I think you're
absolutely right.
Joel Salabarria (31:05):
The gospel still remains.
Piet Van Waarde (31:07):
Yeah.
Joel Salabarria (31:08):
Everything that we're experiencing right now is
a is a loud reminder that weneed Jesus.
And as creatives, we get to useour creative abilities and
giftings to highlight thegospel.
And and and once when theconversation turns into this one
versus this one, we'veabandoned the gospel now.
Piet Van Waarde (31:29):
Yeah.
Joel Salabarria (31:29):
Because the gospel doesn't care about CCM
versus gospel or Latin music.
It doesn't care.
Um, and so for me, it's likelet no let's focus on the gospel
and also create spaces for usto have conversations so we can
get to healing.
Because we do need that.
That's yeah, we we need that,not at the expense of
(31:52):
ostracizing a whole group ofpeople over preference.
Yeah.
Over preference, you know.
Um, we it it's kind of absurdto put Jesus in a box like that,
you know.
Yeah, that he prefers one overthe other, you know.
Uh he prefers a contrite heart,a repentant heart, yeah, versus
(32:14):
my way is better.
Piet Van Waarde (32:15):
Yeah, for sure.
Joel Salabarria (32:16):
You know, you look at Abel and Cain, it was a
it was the right heart.
They both worshiped, but youknow, one wasn't received.
And it wasn't because one stylewas better than the other.
It was a heart.
It was a heart matter.
And so it doesn't matter whatstyle we sing, what preference
we like, I think you should beallowed to like what you like.
(32:37):
If you like Bethel 24-7, listento Bethel 24-7.
And if you like John P.
Key and or Ty Tribbett 24-7,rock it out 24-7.
Um, but when we're together, wedon't put nobody down.
Yeah, we don't put styles down.
We we come together.
I want to learn from you.
(32:58):
I want you to learn from me.
Yeah, and let's worshiptogether because that's how you
see the gospel walked out.
Piet Van Waarde (33:03):
And you know, I we we had a bunch of night
service last night, and I foundmyself, you know, I know you're
supposed to like focus in on theLord when you're worshiping,
but there was a moment where Ijust looked around the room and
I saw, you know, a variety ofpeople, and each one was kind of
engaged in their own way.
So you had some teens that werejust like, oh, Jesus, you know,
(33:27):
with all their enthusiasm.
And then, and then I saw some,you know, older people with like
a more somber and sober, likereflective state.
And I'm just like, everybodyhere is worshiping the same
king.
Yeah, and they're doing it indifferent ways.
But I like, I I'm impressedwith it all.
(33:49):
Right.
I love it all.
I I just feel like it's justlike the focus is now on, hey,
we're doing this with him forhim.
And it's like, so what thatthey do it differently.
Like, I'm just like, I can tellthey love the Lord.
That's that's what we're herefor.
Joel Salabarria (34:05):
Man, being obsessed with how and I and I'm
not saying that you are becauseI know that you you care about
the the nitty-gritty and justgetting the message across.
And I love your willingness.
One of the things I've alwaysadmired about you is your
willingness to color outside thelines.
At the at the risk of it notbeing a, you know, it may not
(34:26):
work, but like let's try it.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, and I love thatbecause I want to explore it
too.
I'm a very curious mind.
Um, but being obsessed with howpeople respond to what God has
given us to express isdangerous, man.
Because then it becomes yourrule of measure, it becomes your
(34:46):
ruler, right?
Like, oh, they didn't respondthe way I saw it in my head.
So I must have intended.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that has literally becomean epidemic to me, especially if
you're a worship leader.
Oh no, let me not say thatbecause preachers get preachers
do it too.
Preachers do it too, and they Ithink they have more pressure
(35:08):
because there's not a worshipteam surrounding them and
musicians surrounding them tokind of like hide behind and
also help with the dynamics andand all that stuff.
It's them, a podium, and a mic,you know.
So that's a lot of pressure.
And um the lack of responsesometimes can be discouraging.
(35:28):
And so it's important to haveyour identity intact, to know
that you're doing what you'resupposed to be doing, regardless
of the response, becausesometimes the no response is a
response of reflection.
Oh, for sure, and we forgetthat.
And one of the things that I'veI've had to learn that the way
(35:50):
people respond to my assignmentis none of my business.
It's none of my business.
If they come say thanks, cool.
If they come say I did a goodjob, great.
If they don't, still great.
Because it's none of mybusiness.
That's between them and God.
Piet Van Waarde (36:10):
Yeah, and in fact, I think there's this thing
in the church culturally,generally speaking, where you
know, I I've noticed this, likeyou'll get up and you'll speak,
and and then invariably peoplewill feel some responsibility.
Like, hey man, I was ready.
That was awesome today.
Man, you did it.
You nailed it, bro.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(36:31):
And it's like, and I know Isucked.
Bro, like when you know, like,yeah, you know, thanks.
I appreciate you.
I trust me, I know.
Well, and the thing is that as aresult, there's just like I
don't want to get off track onthis, but it's just it's just
like there there can be thesethings where people just feel
(36:54):
this obligation to have to blowsmoke all the time.
And then as the person who'sreceiving it, you really don't
have a sense of like, was thatlike, is that sincere, or is
just you saw me because I spokefive minutes ago and you had to
say something about it.
Joel Salabarria (37:08):
It's a double-edged sword, right?
Because you're looking for theresponse and you're feeding off
of that.
But then with the danger inthat is that you'll get
something that's not truebecause people are just inept to
just be kind.
Yeah, like, hey, you did agreat job.
You got up there and you nailedit.
You know, you did good.
And there's truth in that.
But if we're gonna really talkabout did I execute the
(37:31):
assignment, that needs to comefrom somebody that's actually
qualified to speak into that andknows the journey, understands
the journey, can tell that, oh,you skipped some points there.
And you know, and there's nothere's no hurt in that because
of the relationship.
And so, you know, you have tobe confident in yourself enough
(37:52):
to know that that's just acompliment.
Let it stay right there.
Say thank you and move on.
Like, don't say go home and belike, yeah, everybody said I
killed you.
So I know I did good.
It may not be true, you know.
But if if my fellow worshipleader, who I know is a is an
(38:12):
amazing person at what he doessays, bro, that was powerful.
Yeah, that carries a differentkind of weight.
Oh, yeah, oh yeah.
It just does.
And so the way people respondis none of our business.
I can't tell you how many timesI've worshiped an environment
that I don't come from.
And I get asked to come leadworship, and the response is
(38:36):
very much looking at me.
It's not engagement.
And then afterwards, I was soemotional by your presentation,
I was so moved to to think abouthow God has done what you
talked about in my life.
I was just weeping in my chair,or I was just contemplating a
(38:58):
lot of things.
It's like, thanks, here I am.
Obsessed with applause and youknow, getting with me.
And the person that was sittingdown quiet was getting wrecked
the whole time.
And so it's it's none of mybusiness.
Yeah, and it's unfair point tolike push that and force people
(39:20):
to stand up and force people toclap.
And, you know, I encourage it.
Hey, come on, let's clap ourhands.
But if you don't, it's okay.
Piet Van Waarde (39:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joel Salabarria (39:29):
Like, I don't want you to be some because I've
watched people that never clapall of a sudden want to clap.
Not because I told them to, butHoly Spirit riled up inside of
them and that fire shut up intheir bones, came alive, but
they're still who they are.
Yeah, and next week they mayjust be go back to the way that
they respond, but God is stillmoving in their life.
And so we gotta take, if wefocus up here, it doesn't even
(39:55):
matter because there's gonna bedifferent cultures.
There's cultures that dance thewhole worship experience, yeah,
and then there's cultures thatjust stand there and receive.
Who am I to say they got it,they don't?
They get it, they don't.
That's so unfair, you know.
And so, yeah, the you know,worship should be the church
(40:16):
community as a whole should be aspace where we can come
together from all differentwalks of life and and be able to
walk in unity.
And I think the I know theenemy is scared out of his mind
for the day that we can actuallytap into that real unity.
And it's happening.
(40:37):
It's happening.
Um, because it's gonna be aproblem.
It's gonna be a problem for thefor his agenda.
Um, and it's it's gonna, it'sgonna, it's gonna erase so much
drama that that we deal withright now because God will be
glorified.
Jesus will be sitting on thethrone, and there won't be any
(40:59):
divid lines of division when itcomes to his body, his bride.
Love that.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (41:04):
So that's where I want to close, actually.
Okay.
So would you mind like prayingfor that?
Like I didn't I didn't warn youabout this, I didn't give you a
heads up, but I just feel theprompting as we were as we were
talking about it.
Like, I I hear you.
I think that that is a superimportant, really needed.
But B, I see, I see signs ofit, you know, little little
tastes of it here and there.
(41:25):
So uh let's let's pray intothat.
Would you would you mindleaving that?
Joel Salabarria (41:29):
God, we thank you so much for being a good
father and for being mindful ofeven the things we won't say out
loud.
God, we thank you that in themidst of the chaos that we
experience every day, you arestill sovereign, you still sit
on the throne.
And God, if we could just lookup to the hills, God, if we
could just look up to where ourhelp actually comes from, we can
(41:53):
we can do away with all the allthe foolishness that we get
distracted by, God.
So we just pray right now, inthis moment, that you would
burden the hearts of your peopleto look up again, to look up
one more time and to see thatthe answer is not within our
concepts, our isms, our oursmart conversations, but it's in
(42:14):
acknowledging that you are theLord of lords, you are King of
kings.
Amen.
And God, you have already donethe work for salvation.
You have already done the work,Lord, to eliminate the darkness
in this world, God.
And so we just unite as onebody, as as friends, as brothers
and sisters, God.
We just align ourselves, God,believing that you are the
(42:36):
answer.
And God, so from here on out,Lord, we will proclaim the
gospel, we will proclaim thelove of Jesus Christ, God, and
we will fight division withunity.
We will fight to bring peoplecloser together instead of
entertaining the things of thisworld that try to take us apart,
God.
And so we just pray for wisdom,God.
(42:57):
We pray for strategy, God.
We pray for boldness andcourage, Lord, to step out of
the norm and step out of our ownprotective bubbles, God, and
and look at what's around us andsee the wonders and the
beauties that you have createdin this world.
And Lord, just give us thestrength and the tenacity, the
audacity, Lord, to draw peoplein and to bring people closer to
(43:20):
you, God.
And Lord, we would just glorifyyou.
We give you glory, glory,glory, glory.
We give you thanks formiracles, signs, and wonders
that will happen in every singlespace that we talked about
today, God.
And we just thank you that youtrust us to use us in this time.
We thank you in advance inJesus' name.
Piet Van Waarde (43:37):
Amen.
Amen.
Ah, man, that was so good,brother.
Thank you.
And we want to thank you forjoining us.
And uh, yeah, if you want toknow a little bit more about
what Joel's doing, we'll putsome notes down in the notes of
the session and uh check himout.
I think you'll really enjoy notonly his ministry, he's also on
TikTok and has great music.
(43:57):
So check it all out.
You'll uh you'll be blessed.
And join us again next week foranother sidewalk conversation.
Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversation.
My name is Pete Van Wart.
I'm your host today.
And I want to start ourconversation by asking you to
consider a question.
And that is, what is the firstthing that comes to mind when
you hear the word worship?
Now I'll tell you that answerfor me would be depends on when
(00:21):
you ask me.
Like when I grew up and I heardthe word, oh, it's time for us
to go to worship, there wasnothing inside of me that says,
oh, I'm looking forward to that.
In fact, it was the part of theweek that I dreaded the most.
We called it a worship service,but it was nothing that
elicited a response of love orjoy or or meaning.
(00:44):
It just was the longest hour ofthe week for me.
Which was such a um a sadthing, really, because once I
came to know the Lord, Irealized that worship is meant
to be the most beautiful part oflife.
And it's actually a very broadpart of life.
In fact, if you read thescriptures, you'll find that
(01:06):
everything we do can be an actof worship.
But there is this season orthis time where we get a chance
to gather together as acommunity and express our
worship to God.
Now, the reason that this hasbeen on my heart a lot these
days is because I've beenfinding myself wondering what is
(01:26):
it that can join or bringChristians together in light of
so many things that arehappening in our culture that
tear us apart.
So whether we're talking aboutthe politics, whether we're
talking about ethnicity, whetherwe're talking about worship
style, there's like all theseconversations that happen, and
then they say people who say,Well, if you're part of that
(01:46):
camp, then I can have nothing todo with you.
What bridges that gap?
And my contention is that ithas to do something with
worship.
And that's why I'm so excitedabout my guest today, because
he's one of my favorite worshipleaders.
We've had a chance to worktogether in various settings,
and I just love his heart forGod.
I love his heart for worship.
And I think after ourconversation today, you'll love
(02:09):
him in a greater degree as well,if you don't already.
So I'm excited to introduce himto you and thank you for
joining us.
Before we begin, and Iintroduce my guests, I want to
(02:32):
say a thank you to our sponsor.
Our sponsor today is uh theCounseling Center in Kansas
City, Tenfold Counseling.
These folks have beensupporters of this work from the
very beginning.
And one of the things that Ithink has motivated them to be
part of supporting the Van BoardFoundation and all the work
(02:53):
that we do through it is becausethey understand at a very core
level that people need resourcesand tools to work through the
issues and challenges of life.
And so, therefore, I just wantto again support them and the
work that they're doing.
They do work out of obviouslyout of Kansas City, but they
also do things online and viavideo.
(03:13):
And so, if there's a part ofyour life where you need some
expertise, some support, someadvice, some counseling, they
are a full service operation.
They do marriage counseling,they work with teens, they have
all kinds of resources.
So tenfold counseling.
We'll put the link down in thenotes below, but I encourage you
(03:34):
to check them out if that'ssomething that you or your
family member needs.
All right, now without anyfurther delay, I want to
introduce my guest this week.
He's back all the way fromseason one, Joelle Salabaria.
Hey, let's go.
Love it.
Glad to be here.
Oh man, I'm so glad to haveyou.
(03:54):
You know, we were alwaysalready getting into it before
we started recording.
I'm like, hey, no, save yoursave your best.
Man, something about goodconversation.
Yeah, it is.
All right.
Well, uh, for those who, youknow, may have seen you in our
first season, uh, that that was,I think, three or four years
ago now.
Uh, you've been doing somethings.
(04:16):
Yes, and so just bring us up tospeed on uh kind of what's been
keeping you busy.
You have a new kid.
I mean, come on.
Joel Salabarria (04:24):
Yeah, we had a we had a baby born July 4th.
Oh, wow.
This year.
All right.
Um, she was about a month earlybecause of some complications,
but when I tell you everythinghappened the way it was supposed
to happen, God was all overthat thing.
That and by that thing I meanthe the ex the circumstances and
(04:44):
the experience.
She's perfect, she's she's loudand full of life and bossy and
all the all the things you need.
She commands the room and thehouse.
Um, but I'm madly in love withher.
Um I I love being able to umsee her every day.
Um but yeah, we uh, you know,the kids are older now, they're
(05:07):
both in the same school.
Um and I'm traveling a lot morenow.
Uh still on tour with GirlsGone Bible.
Piet Van Waarde (05:16):
Um that's a new thing though, right?
Yeah.
Relatively like Oh, right.
Joel Salabarria (05:19):
Yeah, that was after Yeah, so that started last
year.
So it's been a little over ayear now that I've been
traveling with them, and um,that's been a cool journey just
to be.
Because you've been like, if Iremember right, you've been kind
of mentoring them as well.
Like Yeah, so yeah, I've I'veact um I kind of play the role
of like a big brother mentoringbehind the scenes um in their
(05:40):
ministry walk outside of thepodcast.
Um so I don't really mentor onthe pat podcast side.
They're they're they got thatin spades, but um walking the
walk, you know, on the ministryside, I've been able to partner
along with them and and be a bigbrother.
That's awesome.
Yeah, it's been really cool towalk the journey with them.
Piet Van Waarde (05:59):
And that's kind of blown up too, that whole
thing.
Joel Salabarria (06:02):
Yeah, yeah, they're they're amazing.
And they're I think the worldhas yet to see the fullness of
how God wants to use both ofthem.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (06:10):
What's what's their basic premise for those
who don't know?
Joel Salabarria (06:12):
So they started off wanting to share the
journey of navigating the Bibletogether.
Um, Aria just come into thefaith, and uh, they wanted to
learn how to read the Bibletogether.
So they started it off likethat, and it's inspired so many
young adults across the nationand even outside of um our
country for young adult peopleto really dive into the word of
(06:37):
God.
It's crazy to see at everyvenue how many people in that 18
to 35 age gap showing up withphysical Bibles and highlighters
and pens.
Wow, you know, ready to diginto the word.
And so um Angela and Ari,they're they're they're a gift
to the kingdom for sure, and I'msuper honored.
Piet Van Waarde (07:00):
So do you lead worship before the event?
Yes.
Joel Salabarria (07:02):
So every stop, 30 minutes about 30 minutes
before, we just go into worship,we flow a little bit, and um,
it's it's it's a beautifulexperience.
Honestly, um I I feel like akid, you know.
That's why even saying thatlike they treat me as a big
brother, I feel like a kidrunning around with them too.
And I forget that I'm 41.
(07:23):
And uh, but they're so honoringand they're so loving, and I'm
so uh blessed to be on the roadwith them.
That's so cool.
Yeah, and then you have thislittle other thing on the side
called the Worship Society.
Yeah, man.
The Worship Society, officiallythree years old this month,
October.
Um super excited about what Godhas been doing.
(07:43):
Specifically this last year, Ithink it's been where
everybody's catching the visionfull-fledged and starting to run
with it.
Um, we're we're literallyhaving conversations of chapters
outside of Austin to startkicking off worship societies in
other cities.
And so we're really excitedabout that.
(08:04):
Um give me the basic premise.
Like, what is the kind ofphilosophy vision behind it?
So the worship society, and I'mgonna try to do this in the
shortest version as possible.
It's hard to do it.
I've tried a couple differenttimes.
It's hard, but this is what itis.
I believe that worship societywill be a space for creatives
(08:24):
and leaders in the in the faith,in the church, in the local
church, to find community, tofind mentorship, to find
sandboxes to figure out whatelse is inside, to workshop
those things out, but also findauthentic relationship with
fellow believers, fellowcreatives that are not just
trying to be buddy buddies, butare actually trying to walk life
(08:46):
together and be accountable toeach other.
So we believe that there's noreal accountability or effective
accountability outside ofrelationship.
Yeah, I think too many times weskip the relationship part and
we want to hold peopleaccountable.
And even if you're speaking thetruth, the lack of relationship
part is what makes the processof accountability longer.
Piet Van Waarde (09:10):
Yeah.
Joel Salabarria (09:11):
Right.
But if we're friends, well,we're hiding from each other as
well.
Piet Van Waarde (09:14):
Right.
You know, right?
Joel Salabarria (09:15):
We're trying to, yeah, I still look good in
front of you.
But when we're friends andwe're we're walking together,
David and Jonathan walkingtogether, then there can be some
accountability there.
There can also be protectionthere, right?
Yeah, there's a covering whenthere's relationship there that,
hey, bro, like I feel likesomething's off.
You know, you're the way you'reinteracting is a little off.
(09:36):
What's going on?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you only can really sensethat or feel that difference if
there's relationships, like havebeing a parent.
Yeah, your daughter'stalkative, and then for a week
straight, she's not talkative.
That's an alarm.
Yeah.
You're like, hey, what's goingon?
Right, right, right.
But that's relationship.
And so we believe thatrelationship is very important
for the creative community.
In this day and age, creativesare used as machines so many
(10:00):
times.
So true.
So many times.
And they're so they're so goodat what they do that it's almost
non-existent to think thatthey're human and they got drama
too.
They're dealing with lust,they're dealing with
pornography, they're dealingwith depression, they're dealing
(10:22):
with um drug addiction.
But we've mastered, I'm good,I'm blessed and highly favored,
depending on which church youcome from.
Um and I just want to create aspace where suffering alone
doesn't exist in our community.
And so that's what we do.
On top of that, we do our ownworship events, our own worship
(10:42):
gatherings to put these thingsinto action.
Um, sandboxes.
I believe that, you know, everymusician is not just a
musician.
You know, how many, how many,how many great communicators we
know now that if you were to askthem, they started off as a
musician, you know, and I thinkthere's a lot more than that, a
lot more of those in ourcommunity, but we don't really
(11:04):
provide a lot of spaces for thatto be cultivated.
And so I'm just hoping thatWorship Society can be a giant
sandbox for people to find whatelse God has put inside of them
without judgment, withoutabusive critique, um, but
genuine mentorship and guidanceand space to screw it up.
Piet Van Waarde (11:25):
Yeah, you know, and and well, one of the things
I love, because I've been at acouple of your events and and
and I think you usuallyintroduce it, and correct me if
I'm not getting exactly thespeech right, but um, it's
something to the effect of, hey,listen, I want to create a
space where you don't have to beon, where you're just here,
you're among fellow creatives,so we get each other, and we're
(11:48):
just gonna create some room forthe Holy Spirit to do a work in
each of our hearts.
We're gonna sing, we're gonnaenjoy each other's company.
There's poetry, there'ssharings, they're different,
like it just flows like somepeople lead, and then all of a
sudden somebody else is leading.
And yeah, it's just it's justit's a wee thing.
Joel Salabarria (12:04):
It's a wee thing, it's so cool, it's a wee
thing, very, very unique.
Yeah, we do it together.
This last year we launchedsomething last year around this
time called Flow Nights.
Um, so our baby is housepop-ups.
We go from house to house,which those have become way more
exclusive, which is why youdon't see it on Facebook as
much.
Because honestly, the housescan't handle that many people.
(12:27):
The air conditioning justdoesn't work.
So we ain't trying to pay fornobody's new air conditioning
system.
So that's a you got to be inthe know to know when we do
house pop-ups.
But flow nights has become howwe connect with the community as
a whole.
We go from church to church,and it's literally what it's
called.
It's a flow night.
(12:48):
We start off with prayer andmaking it known that Holy
Spirit, we want you to have yourway.
We have no set list, we have notracks, there's no Proposenter
lyrics, um, and we don't knowwhat's gonna happen.
And it's and it's so far, Godhas blessed and breathed on
every single one, and it's beenamazing.
(13:09):
I think the shortest one we hadwas three hours.
It's it's been crazy.
It's been crazy, and it's beenso beautiful.
We've seen healing, we've seenmiracles, we've seen testimonies
for you for you older peoplethat remember testimony service.
We're bringing that backbecause there's something about
hearing God working in somebodyelse's life.
(13:30):
Of course, it it activates thatfaith in you, and so we we've
brought that back.
Um, and it's verymulticultural,
multi-generational,generational.
We we don't hide from nothing.
We want Holy Spirit tocompletely have his way.
And then at any point, singersare swapping out, musicians are
(13:52):
swapping out.
I don't dictate none of that.
They do it on their own becausethey because the vision is
understood at this point.
Piet Van Waarde (13:59):
Yeah, nice.
I love it.
Joel Salabarria (14:00):
Yeah, so if people want to know more about
where those things happen, howdo they get so the best thing to
do right now is to go to theworshipsociety.net.
All right, and there's athere's a button on there that
you can click to join or findout more.
Um, and you'll get worshipsociety's actual phone number,
(14:20):
which I don't have memorized.
Um but the website's the bestplace um to go to, and then of
course our social media, theworship society, or my personal
social media, j dot solabriamusic.
Um, and you we'll we'll we'llput all that in the notes here.
Piet Van Waarde (14:35):
Sure.
It'll be great.
Joel Salabarria (14:36):
We'll definitely stay connected that
way.
Um, we're actually announcingum this will be right here, you
know, announcing that we areopening the doors for building
the team bigger.
We need help now.
Um, it's getting crazy, and sowe need um people to jump in and
help.
So if you want to be inproduction, hospitality,
(14:58):
greeting, um, setup teardown,you know, the doors are open.
We need help.
Piet Van Waarde (15:04):
So ask you have not because you ask not.
So I love it.
Yeah, all right.
Well, cool.
Well, I want to shift gears alittle bit.
Yeah, let's do it.
Um, one of the conversations uhthat we've, and I I want to
just say this publicly, youknow, I have just loved our
relationship.
I love the chances that we havegotten to do things together.
You write in my newsletterevery week.
(15:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's just it's beenawesome to have uh this
partnership.
Um and one of the conversationswe've had in the time that
we've known each other is thisdistinction between multi-ethnic
congregations and multiculturalworship.
And usually those terms areused interchangeably.
And one of the things that youhelped me understand is that
(15:48):
those are those are differentthings.
They're both valuable, yes, butthey are they are different.
And so I wonder if you can juststart by talking a little bit
about the difference and thenits influence on worship.
Joel Salabarria (16:01):
Yeah.
So I think a lot of the timesthe confusion is that um because
we have a lot of differentethnicities in our church, that
that makes us multiautomatically makes us
multicultural.
And that's actually notautomatic, right?
So multi-ethnic is obviouslygood, you know, all people
belong, should be, should beable to worship together, but
(16:23):
multicultural is actuallysomething that you put in place
to represent multicultures,right?
And so saying we'remulticultural because we have
multi-ethnics is actually notall the way honest if we're not
being intentional abouteverything that entails in being
(16:44):
mindful of the people that goto our church or are part of our
communities.
And so if I have all thesemulti-ethnics, but I don't
actually do the work to studythe study who I'm serving, how
can I be multicultural?
How can I be, how can I claimto be multicultural, but I don't
understand your culture?
(17:05):
So if I'm gonna bemulticultural, and if that's the
intention, then I need to bewilling to do the work to
understand the differentcultures and how they think and
being uh uh practicing culturalhumility, right?
Being aware of my own culturewhile also learning somebody
else's culture.
(17:25):
So I don't have to I don't haveto eliminate my culture to
learn yours.
But if I want to say that youbelong here and I want to be
multicultural, then I need to dothe work to learn your culture
so that I can do a good job ofstewarding the opportunity to
represent that in our worshipexperience.
The reality is that peopledetermine whether they're gonna
(17:48):
come back to a church in thefirst seven minutes, maybe less,
of walking in.
That's the parking lot.
That's yeah, you know, so so wehave we have people that come
from cultures that don't feelcomfortable sending their kids
to child care because of theirculture.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's important to understand.
(18:09):
How can I how can I make thateasier to navigate for this
person that goes to my church?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right?
This looks good for thisculture, but for this culture,
it's like, uh I don't know.
Um the even down to like thekind of coffee we sell at the
coffee shop, you know, thisculture really likes this coffee
(18:31):
coffee.
This culture really.
So I'm not saying likeeverything needs to be
completely revamped, but weshould be intentional about
figuring out how we can be moremulticultural from the parking
lot all the way to the stage.
You know, there's certaincultures that are always late.
You know what I'm saying?
I'm not gonna point no fingers,but there's coach, some
(18:53):
cultures that are always late.
There's some cultures that arealways extremely early.
How can we still feel, youknow, that you know, if you've
ever been late to something thatyou really want to be on time
for, there's a frustration andanxiety that comes when you're
pulling up because you knowyou're missing out on what you
want to be on time for.
How can we meet that and calmthat down?
(19:14):
How can we be mindful of thatand that person feels and not
make a moral judgment about it?
Right.
And that person feels seen, andnow they feel like their
culture is a part of the bigpicture.
Piet Van Waarde (19:27):
Now you're gonna probably suggest that
there's a a good reason to movebeyond multi-ethnic, to say, you
know what, yeah, that's that'sa good start, you know, like
great, but be intentional aboutmoving to a multicultural
experience.
And what would you say is thebenefit of doing so?
(19:47):
Like, why would that be animportant mission to take on?
Joel Salabarria (19:54):
So I think my first question would be if do we
really want to do that?
Cause I because I could say whywe should, but some people
don't want to do that.
And I don't think this might becontroversial.
I don't think that it'severybody's assignment to
provide that kind of space.
Yeah, I don't think everybodyhas that gifting to provide that
(20:15):
kind of space.
But we got to be careful whenwe say we're multicultural and
we're not doing the work.
So if that's the if that's thegoal to be multicultural or
that's the title we want to runwith, then I think it's the
reason it's important is becausepeople will lower their
(20:36):
expectations for the sake ofjust finding something close
enough.
Yeah.
Um and I think it's adisservice to the to to to the
multi-ethnic people that bringso much rich culture from where
they come from.
And I think it's a it's a miss.
It's a it's a massive miss tothink that this culture, this
(20:58):
ethnicity, this um nationalitydoesn't have something to offer
that would make us betterbecause we figured out how to do
well in our own culture.
Piet Van Waarde (21:08):
And I and I think going back to the point
that we started the programwith, don't you think, and this
is my contention, and I hope Ihope you agree.
It's okay.
And you could be you coulddisagree too.
Yes, sir.
Um but the idea is that if weare talking about bridging a
divide and and and we're sayingin order to be part of this
(21:31):
community, you have to everybodyhas to adopt this culture,
yeah.
Then in one sense, there's likethe in people and the out
people.
And like you said, some peopleare willing to deal with that
because it's least close.
But if we are saying, like,like could we create even a
deeper kind of conversation anda deeper kind of unity when we
(21:54):
give expression within the samecontext for people who are
obviously from differentcultures in our context.
So if we do some things that,like, and we used the
illustration earlier about likesome gospel or Latino or uh CCM,
like if it's just one of those,then that's gonna everybody's
(22:15):
gotta fit into that.
But if you have like asmattering, right, and people
feel like, oh, they know mylanguage, like there are people
here who probably understandmore about me and my perspective
than I thought coming in.
Joel Salabarria (22:28):
Yeah, I mean, it creates trust, it creates um
safety in that space.
Like, okay, like I matter inthis context as well, too.
You know, I genuinely believeGod loves collaboration.
And so when we have theseopportunities to collaborate, we
should do our best to do that.
(22:49):
And here's the thing we're whenwe're talking about
environments that have a staffthat's designated to cultivating
experiences that arelife-giving and thought about
from every single angle, thatneeds to be part of the
conversation, right?
You know, like that that needsto be part of the conversation.
(23:09):
Okay, hey, you know, 30% of ourcongregation is black and
brown.
How can we better represent thepeople that are part of our
community and that we'reserving?
How can we do a better job?
It's not gonna happenovernight, but we need to have
the conversation.
We need to bring the people tothe table and figure out it's
(23:31):
not just putting a black personon a graphic.
That that doesn't check thebox.
We have to figure out how fromthe parking lot to the altar
call are we being mindful ofevery every aspect of culture
that comes when it comes to ourchurch.
And no, you're not gonna pleaseeverybody.
(23:51):
And I think it's a heartposture matter.
I think it I think it has tomatter that um we have a strong
Spanish community.
How can we better representthat?
You know, we have a strong umblack community.
How can how can we make surethat we're honoring of
representing that culture aswell too?
When we have the resources todo it.
(24:13):
That's and so because you know,it in context, everybody can't
do that.
Right, right.
And so I don't want nobody tofeel like they're missing God
because they're not able to dothat.
Um, I think it's when we startwaving the flag of
multicultural, it's like, butare we though?
You know, because if I start ifI bust out with Fred Hammond
(24:33):
and everybody just looks at melike a cow looking at a new
gate, we find out real quick howoh, we're not that cultural.
You know, there's not a lot ofmulti going on unless I sing a
song that you know.
And a lot of times this is thedanger, is that we call it
fusion or multi-got ormulticultural because the singer
(24:56):
is a person of color addingseasoning to the song.
It's like, yo, like I'm it'smore than that.
Yeah, the chord progressionsmatter, the writing style
matters, the the the rhythmmatters, like all of that plays
a part in different styles, youknow.
And so I think caring about themom that's a single mom coming
(25:21):
from um a community maybe whereleaving kids with somebody else
is not comfortable, beingmindful of that person mattering
to, and how can we create anenvironment that communicates
safety, not forcing her toassimilate to that, but like,
hey, we get it.
And so maybe that means beingmindful of what our staff looks
(25:45):
like as a whole, you know, ourvolunteers look like as a whole,
the color schemes, the the thedecorations, like everything
plays a part, right?
You know, and we know thatbecause we set up our house the
way we want it to look whenpeople want to come.
Like this is the kind ofenvironment you're walking in.
So we we know we know we justgotta figure out what actually
(26:07):
matters as a whole when we wantto say multicultural versus
multi-ethnic.
You have a lot of ethnic peoplein your church, but your
experience is not multicultural,and that there's I'm not saying
that that's bad.
No, I I hear you because I'mwith it, I like all the
cultures, I want to go to all ofthem, and so um I just you
know, I I chuckle a little bitwhen I hear people say
(26:31):
multicultural, and I go and I'mlike, No, this is the same as
the other place, you know, it'sjust the the the congregation is
multi-ethnic, yeah, but whatwe're experiencing isn't.
Piet Van Waarde (26:45):
All right.
Well, let me um again do alittle uh uh turn on the
conversation.
Okay.
Um so one of my contentions,and again, we were talking a
little bit about this before wegot out on the air, um, is that
worship in and of itself has abonding capacity for people.
And and and that one of thereasons why you've created
(27:08):
worship society is for thatreason.
Yeah.
Is like like we need to createa space where people can connect
to God, which will draw themtogether.
Um we we used to, when Caroland I were doing premarital
counseling, one of the things wewould say to people is that um
it's like a triangle, you know,if you get closer to God and
you're both intent on thatjourney to God, there's gonna be
(27:29):
some connection that happenswhere you get closer too.
So it's just like the things gotogether.
And uh I've been thinkingrecently that that's true in a
broader sense too.
It's not just in marriage.
I mean, it's like incommunities where if we can get
people to focus in on the Lord,then even if we have some
differences uh, you know, aboutstyle of music or politics or
(27:53):
culture, we we can we can findcommon ground.
Like the Holy Spirit doessomething in that context.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour experiences with that and
and and why you think thathappens or what people can do to
facilitate that happening.
Give me a little bit of yourperspective on that.
Joel Salabarria (28:10):
Yeah, I definitely agree that what you
know, a worship experience ormusic, if we if we just kind of
define it a little bit harder,music, regardless of the style,
naturally brings peopletogether.
If you're at a cookout and theystart playing certain kind of
music, everybody starts dancing.
Everybody starts smiling, theythey have to go like you know,
(28:32):
you're rocking, right?
Because you do your mind justwent to that moment.
It just naturally does that,right?
But I think the enemy alsounderstands that too.
And the enemy is very muchaware that division needs to
happen at every spot.
And so I feel like division hasinfiltrated music for years,
even before you know I was born.
(28:54):
You know, it's it's it'sinfiltrated this style is better
than that style, this style ismore holier than this style.
Um, this is worship, that'sgospel.
And I just like I disagree withthat wholeheartedly because if
you go to different places inthe country in the in the world,
worship is gonna sounddifferent everywhere you go,
right?
Right.
And I refuse to believe thatthe Holy Spirit is limited,
(29:19):
Jesus is limited to a preferencein style.
And I think we as a communityneed to stop putting each other
down because our styles aredifferent.
And when our eyes are focusedon worshiping Jesus and offering
a reasonable sacrifice, whichis us, then it doesn't even
matter.
(29:39):
That's not to say that theconversation around the hurt
that's happened because ofracism and isms as a whole in
church need to be had, but let'snot, as creatives, I wish that
we would stop contributing tothat with drawing a line um in
genres.
I think when we're worshipingChrist and our hearts are
(30:04):
focused on that, it that it hasno room for that.
It has no space for that.
And people get to see andexperience the different
cultures when we come togetherand put our egos aside, put our
hurt aside for that moment, forthat experience.
People get to experiencesomething that they maybe
(30:26):
wouldn't have ever experienced.
And then they get, it's like abug.
It gets stuck on them, youknow, and it's it's like you
just want more of that.
And so I do believe thatworship can be um the the the
glue or the the antidote, right,for bringing people together.
Because I ultimately believeJesus is the answer for
(30:50):
everything that we're walkingthrough right now.
All the hatred, all thedivision, all the the ugly
things that we're experiencingin the world right now, you
know, the Jesus is the answer.
The gospel still remains.
Piet Van Waarde (31:02):
Sounds so cliche, but I think you're
absolutely right.
Joel Salabarria (31:05):
The gospel still remains.
Piet Van Waarde (31:07):
Yeah.
Joel Salabarria (31:08):
Everything that we're experiencing right now is
a is a loud reminder that weneed Jesus.
And as creatives, we get to useour creative abilities and
giftings to highlight thegospel.
And and and once when theconversation turns into this one
versus this one, we'veabandoned the gospel now.
Piet Van Waarde (31:29):
Yeah.
Joel Salabarria (31:29):
Because the gospel doesn't care about CCM
versus gospel or Latin music.
It doesn't care.
Um, and so for me, it's likelet no let's focus on the gospel
and also create spaces for usto have conversations so we can
get to healing.
Because we do need that.
That's yeah, we we need that,not at the expense of
(31:52):
ostracizing a whole group ofpeople over preference.
Yeah.
Over preference, you know.
Um, we it it's kind of absurdto put Jesus in a box like that,
you know.
Yeah, that he prefers one overthe other, you know.
Uh he prefers a contrite heart,a repentant heart, yeah, versus
(32:14):
my way is better.
Piet Van Waarde (32:15):
Yeah, for sure.
Joel Salabarria (32:16):
You know, you look at Abel and Cain, it was a
it was the right heart.
They both worshiped, but youknow, one wasn't received.
And it wasn't because one stylewas better than the other.
It was a heart.
It was a heart matter.
And so it doesn't matter whatstyle we sing, what preference
we like, I think you should beallowed to like what you like.
(32:37):
If you like Bethel 24-7, listento Bethel 24-7.
And if you like John P.
Key and or Ty Tribbett 24-7,rock it out 24-7.
Um, but when we're together, wedon't put nobody down.
Yeah, we don't put styles down.
We we come together.
I want to learn from you.
(32:58):
I want you to learn from me.
Yeah, and let's worshiptogether because that's how you
see the gospel walked out.
Piet Van Waarde (33:03):
And you know, I we we had a bunch of night
service last night, and I foundmyself, you know, I know you're
supposed to like focus in on theLord when you're worshiping,
but there was a moment where Ijust looked around the room and
I saw, you know, a variety ofpeople, and each one was kind of
engaged in their own way.
So you had some teens that werejust like, oh, Jesus, you know,
(33:27):
with all their enthusiasm.
And then, and then I saw some,you know, older people with like
a more somber and sober, likereflective state.
And I'm just like, everybodyhere is worshiping the same
king.
Yeah, and they're doing it indifferent ways.
But I like, I I'm impressedwith it all.
(33:49):
Right.
I love it all.
I I just feel like it's justlike the focus is now on, hey,
we're doing this with him forhim.
And it's like, so what thatthey do it differently.
Like, I'm just like, I can tellthey love the Lord.
That's that's what we're herefor.
Joel Salabarria (34:05):
Man, being obsessed with how and I and I'm
not saying that you are becauseI know that you you care about
the the nitty-gritty and justgetting the message across.
And I love your willingness.
One of the things I've alwaysadmired about you is your
willingness to color outside thelines.
At the at the risk of it notbeing a, you know, it may not
(34:26):
work, but like let's try it.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, and I love thatbecause I want to explore it
too.
I'm a very curious mind.
Um, but being obsessed with howpeople respond to what God has
given us to express isdangerous, man.
Because then it becomes yourrule of measure, it becomes your
(34:46):
ruler, right?
Like, oh, they didn't respondthe way I saw it in my head.
So I must have intended.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that has literally becomean epidemic to me, especially if
you're a worship leader.
Oh no, let me not say thatbecause preachers get preachers
do it too.
Preachers do it too, and they Ithink they have more pressure
(35:08):
because there's not a worshipteam surrounding them and
musicians surrounding them tokind of like hide behind and
also help with the dynamics andand all that stuff.
It's them, a podium, and a mic,you know.
So that's a lot of pressure.
And um the lack of responsesometimes can be discouraging.
(35:28):
And so it's important to haveyour identity intact, to know
that you're doing what you'resupposed to be doing, regardless
of the response, becausesometimes the no response is a
response of reflection.
Oh, for sure, and we forgetthat.
And one of the things that I'veI've had to learn that the way
(35:50):
people respond to my assignmentis none of my business.
It's none of my business.
If they come say thanks, cool.
If they come say I did a goodjob, great.
If they don't, still great.
Because it's none of mybusiness.
That's between them and God.
Piet Van Waarde (36:10):
Yeah, and in fact, I think there's this thing
in the church culturally,generally speaking, where you
know, I I've noticed this, likeyou'll get up and you'll speak,
and and then invariably peoplewill feel some responsibility.
Like, hey man, I was ready.
That was awesome today.
Man, you did it.
You nailed it, bro.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(36:31):
And it's like, and I know Isucked.
Bro, like when you know, like,yeah, you know, thanks.
I appreciate you.
I trust me, I know.
Well, and the thing is that as aresult, there's just like I
don't want to get off track onthis, but it's just it's just
like there there can be thesethings where people just feel
(36:54):
this obligation to have to blowsmoke all the time.
And then as the person who'sreceiving it, you really don't
have a sense of like, was thatlike, is that sincere, or is
just you saw me because I spokefive minutes ago and you had to
say something about it.
Joel Salabarria (37:08):
It's a double-edged sword, right?
Because you're looking for theresponse and you're feeding off
of that.
But then with the danger inthat is that you'll get
something that's not truebecause people are just inept to
just be kind.
Yeah, like, hey, you did agreat job.
You got up there and you nailedit.
You know, you did good.
And there's truth in that.
But if we're gonna really talkabout did I execute the
(37:31):
assignment, that needs to comefrom somebody that's actually
qualified to speak into that andknows the journey, understands
the journey, can tell that, oh,you skipped some points there.
And you know, and there's nothere's no hurt in that because
of the relationship.
And so, you know, you have tobe confident in yourself enough
(37:52):
to know that that's just acompliment.
Let it stay right there.
Say thank you and move on.
Like, don't say go home and belike, yeah, everybody said I
killed you.
So I know I did good.
It may not be true, you know.
But if if my fellow worshipleader, who I know is a is an
(38:12):
amazing person at what he doessays, bro, that was powerful.
Yeah, that carries a differentkind of weight.
Oh, yeah, oh yeah.
It just does.
And so the way people respondis none of our business.
I can't tell you how many timesI've worshiped an environment
that I don't come from.
And I get asked to come leadworship, and the response is
(38:36):
very much looking at me.
It's not engagement.
And then afterwards, I was soemotional by your presentation,
I was so moved to to think abouthow God has done what you
talked about in my life.
I was just weeping in my chair,or I was just contemplating a
(38:58):
lot of things.
It's like, thanks, here I am.
Obsessed with applause and youknow, getting with me.
And the person that was sittingdown quiet was getting wrecked
the whole time.
And so it's it's none of mybusiness.
Yeah, and it's unfair point tolike push that and force people
(39:20):
to stand up and force people toclap.
And, you know, I encourage it.
Hey, come on, let's clap ourhands.
But if you don't, it's okay.
Piet Van Waarde (39:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joel Salabarria (39:29):
Like, I don't want you to be some because I've
watched people that never clapall of a sudden want to clap.
Not because I told them to, butHoly Spirit riled up inside of
them and that fire shut up intheir bones, came alive, but
they're still who they are.
Yeah, and next week they mayjust be go back to the way that
they respond, but God is stillmoving in their life.
And so we gotta take, if wefocus up here, it doesn't even
(39:55):
matter because there's gonna bedifferent cultures.
There's cultures that dance thewhole worship experience, yeah,
and then there's cultures thatjust stand there and receive.
Who am I to say they got it,they don't?
They get it, they don't.
That's so unfair, you know.
And so, yeah, the you know,worship should be the church
(40:16):
community as a whole should be aspace where we can come
together from all differentwalks of life and and be able to
walk in unity.
And I think the I know theenemy is scared out of his mind
for the day that we can actuallytap into that real unity.
And it's happening.
(40:37):
It's happening.
Um, because it's gonna be aproblem.
It's gonna be a problem for thefor his agenda.
Um, and it's it's gonna, it'sgonna, it's gonna erase so much
drama that that we deal withright now because God will be
glorified.
Jesus will be sitting on thethrone, and there won't be any
(40:59):
divid lines of division when itcomes to his body, his bride.
Love that.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (41:04):
So that's where I want to close, actually.
Okay.
So would you mind like prayingfor that?
Like I didn't I didn't warn youabout this, I didn't give you a
heads up, but I just feel theprompting as we were as we were
talking about it.
Like, I I hear you.
I think that that is a superimportant, really needed.
But B, I see, I see signs ofit, you know, little little
tastes of it here and there.
(41:25):
So uh let's let's pray intothat.
Would you would you mindleaving that?
Joel Salabarria (41:29):
God, we thank you so much for being a good
father and for being mindful ofeven the things we won't say out
loud.
God, we thank you that in themidst of the chaos that we
experience every day, you arestill sovereign, you still sit
on the throne.
And God, if we could just lookup to the hills, God, if we
could just look up to where ourhelp actually comes from, we can
(41:53):
we can do away with all the allthe foolishness that we get
distracted by, God.
So we just pray right now, inthis moment, that you would
burden the hearts of your peopleto look up again, to look up
one more time and to see thatthe answer is not within our
concepts, our isms, our oursmart conversations, but it's in
(42:14):
acknowledging that you are theLord of lords, you are King of
kings.
Amen.
And God, you have already donethe work for salvation.
You have already done the work,Lord, to eliminate the darkness
in this world, God.
And so we just unite as onebody, as as friends, as brothers
and sisters, God.
We just align ourselves, God,believing that you are the
(42:36):
answer.
And God, so from here on out,Lord, we will proclaim the
gospel, we will proclaim thelove of Jesus Christ, God, and
we will fight division withunity.
We will fight to bring peoplecloser together instead of
entertaining the things of thisworld that try to take us apart,
God.
And so we just pray for wisdom,God.
(42:57):
We pray for strategy, God.
We pray for boldness andcourage, Lord, to step out of
the norm and step out of our ownprotective bubbles, God, and
and look at what's around us andsee the wonders and the
beauties that you have createdin this world.
And Lord, just give us thestrength and the tenacity, the
audacity, Lord, to draw peoplein and to bring people closer to
(43:20):
you, God.
And Lord, we would just glorifyyou.
We give you glory, glory,glory, glory.
We give you thanks formiracles, signs, and wonders
that will happen in every singlespace that we talked about
today, God.
And we just thank you that youtrust us to use us in this time.
We thank you in advance inJesus' name.
Piet Van Waarde (43:37):
Amen.
Amen.
Ah, man, that was so good,brother.
Thank you.
And we want to thank you forjoining us.
And uh, yeah, if you want toknow a little bit more about
what Joel's doing, we'll putsome notes down in the notes of
the session and uh check himout.
I think you'll really enjoy notonly his ministry, he's also on
TikTok and has great music.
(43:57):
So check it all out.
You'll uh you'll be blessed.
And join us again next week foranother sidewalk conversation.
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