October 2, 2025 • 40 mins
Jurie Kriel joins us to share how a missionary call to America led to Austin, Texas, why “success is obedience,” and how rapid change demands anticipation, not anxiety. We explore AI-era identity, digital polarization, and the rhythms that keep leaders rooted at home and with God.
• his missionary call from South Africa to the US and Austin
• leadership as growing others and obeying God
• cultural insights on homelessness, comfort and consumerism
• the world’s accelerating change and anticipatory leadership
• identity crisis in the age of AI and spiritual grounding
• digital natives, curated feeds and fractured common ground
• curator leadership, shared language and platforming others
• priority over balance, family rhythms and strategic neglect
• challenging past success and releasing the familiar
If you're interested in learning more about Jurie's new book, Hitting the Ball You Cannot See, you can find it here!
Their support helps make this happen. If you're looking for a church, they might be the one for you!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
All right, welcome to another Sidewalk
Conversation.
I am your host, Pete Van Ward,and I'm so glad that you've
decided to join us.
And uh I have always had aninterest in the topic of
leadership from very early on inmy Christian journey.
I was fascinated by people whocould lead well.
And maybe part of it was becauseI didn't see myself as a very
(00:21):
effective leader.
It wasn't something thatnaturally came to me.
And so I watched a lot of otherpeople and learned as much as I
could from watching those peopleand then listening to what they
had to say.
And so I became a ferociousreader and I became a student of
other leaders.
And a quote that stuck with mefrom fairly early on was by the
(00:45):
notorious CEO of GE, Jack Welsh,where he said, When you are not
yet a leader, success is allabout growing yourself.
But once you become a leader,success is all about growing
others.
Now, the guest that I have todayhas been about that second part
(01:07):
of the equation for as long asI've known him.
And I'm I'm sure that as youhear his story, you're going to
be impressed by all the waysthat God has used him as an
influencer in the lives of otherpeople, not just here locally in
the States, but actually allaround the world.
And so I'm very excited aboutyou having an opportunity to
(01:28):
meet him, and I can't wait tointroduce him to you.
(01:50):
That's the church that I attendas a volunteer, and many of the
guests that I've had are alsopart of that congregation.
And if you happen to be in theAustin area and you're looking
for a home church, I just wantto suggest that Shoreline might
be a church for you to consider.
They are also generoussupporters of the foundation
that supports this work.
(02:10):
And so it's not just thatthey're a good church.
I have a special uh uhappreciation for the work that
they do in supporting this work.
And in fact, the guest that Ihave today is one of the pastors
at that church.
And so, would you help mewelcome my guest, Yuri Creel?
Thank you, Yuri, for being here.
(02:30):
Thanks, Pete.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
It's good to be with you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
All right, people are gonna know right off the
bat, by your accident, that youare not Texan.
What do you mean?
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
It's my uh it's my southern draw.
It's just a different south.
It's not uh Yeah, a littlefurther south.
A little further south, SouthAfrica.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah, so um that's actually where I want to begin.
I want to just kind of get alittle like 30,000-foot view of
your story and your life.
And um like, how did you getfrom South Africa to southern
Texas or southern Texas?
Only Jesus.
unknown (03:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:08):
So I mean, the the the story for us was
interesting.
I mean, we were uh actually theday Corin and I met, uh, we were
17, and our very firstconversation was about the call
of God upon our lives and how weboth felt a call to the U.S.
as missionaries, which isstrange for South Africans to
feel called to the US.
(03:28):
Yeah.
So, I mean, fast forward manyyears, uh married life, two
kids, uh, two churches, uh,multiple things later, um, God's
reminding us of this call.
And so uh through a long seriesof events, he confirms it.
And then uh eventually we knowit's the US, but we have no idea
(03:50):
where.
And God challenges us to starthanding over leadership.
So there's an 18-month periodwhere we're handing over
leadership and kind of steppingout in faith, knowing that it's
the US, but the US is a bigplace.
Um and uh I uh at the time uh Iwas pastoring a church, but I
was also uh helping lead a cityunity movement in our city, and
(04:13):
uh through a series of events, Igot to know Tim Hawkes in
Austin.
Uh just we became back then itwas Skype, right?
So it kind of dates the story alittle bit, but uh we we became
friends over Skype and uh hewatched some of my preaching
online, invites me to preach hisuh at his church, and um I have
no idea, I have no idea whereAustin is.
(04:34):
I I asked him if it's far fromNew York because I had meetings
in New York, and he was like,it's close, and I'm like, it's
not close, but anyway, so I'mheading to Austin, uh having
never been, and uh God actuallyspoke to me in a dream.
Um Wow Uh, which you know hasnever been that vivid in my
life.
Uh come to Austin, spend aweekend here, I just know this
(04:58):
is where God wants us.
Um yeah, so fast forward, youknow, another 18 months.
Uh, and uh, you know, God madethe way and everything else.
So one day I sat to him down andI said, Do you do you remember
how I was so sure that Godwanted me here?
Well, God spoke to me in adream.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
So it's uh was quite the quite the story.
Uh just to back up a little bit,so the whole idea of being a
missionary to the US, yeah.
Like normally we think ofmissionary work being to you
know third world countries andsuch.
Not too many Africans beingmissionaries to, you know.
(05:34):
Yeah.
So did you like when you firstbegan to feel that impression,
did you have like a sense oflike, Lord, are you is this and
did anybody else like questionit for you?
Did they say like oh everybody?
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
I I mean it's you know, if if if God calls you to
something and you feel like Ican do this, it's probably not
God because He calls us to stuffthat we can't do by ourselves.
Um, and this was definitely oneof those.
So this was one of those momentswhere you you know it's got to
be God, and understanding it, Iguess, is um I mean when when we
(06:10):
felt called here, uh the thewhole idea of the dechurching of
the next generation in the USwasn't a concept.
SPEAKER_03 (06:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
But as we became a part of it, we very soon
realized that uh the contrast ofdifferent spaces and other
places and an experience of Godthat wasn't necessarily uh bred
within the local church context.
Yeah, you know, it's it's it'sthat old thing of you know,
never ask a fish for thetemperature of the water because
(06:41):
it doesn't know the temperature,it's just the water.
Yeah, right.
And oftentimes when you grow upin a particular culture in a
particular space, you don't knowthe ins and outs of that culture
because you've got nothing tocontrast it with.
SPEAKER_03 (06:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:55):
And actually, as we started fulfilling the mission
of God in the US, weincreasingly realized that
something we could bring was alittle bit of that contrast
because you know, we came intothe water from another space.
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
I love that analogy.
Awesome.
Okay, so when you came to theStates, what were what were some
of the like surprises,transitions that uh you had to
make?
Obviously, there's a languagething and all that, but like
were were there some significantlike what I had to learn to
speak American, which isn'tEnglish.
SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
So I that's an ongoing project.
We haven't got that one down.
Um I think there's a couple ofthings uh I've I've been
privileged in that I've I'vetraveled to 46 countries and you
know seen a lot of the world andwe had worked extensively in
Europe, planting churches anddoing other things.
So I I got to see a lot, butit's different to live in a
(07:48):
place than to visit a place.
Yeah, right.
So so even visiting the US,ministering in the US is very
different than than assimilatinginto a culture and becoming a
part of that culture.
So um some of the some of theearly shocks in the process was
that homeless people wore shoes,which for most Americans is of
(08:09):
course homeless people wearshoes.
But but in most of the world, ifyou're homeless, you're you
don't have money for shoes.
Yeah, right.
And if you can't afford shoes,you're probably okay to live
with other people.
And and this is what I'velearned is I've learned that
actually homelessness isn't thelack of money, it's the lack of
relationship.
(08:30):
Um now you could say it's mentalhealth, you could say it's many
different things, you could sayit's opportunity, but the
reality is by the time a personends up shelterless, it means
that they've burnt everyrelationship to the point where
that's where they're at.
Yeah.
Um, so it's it's those types ofdynamics that I think was really
interesting for us living inthis context and seeing how
(08:53):
addressing the needs ofcommunity needs to look
different in this context thanwhat it does in an African
context or in a Europeancontext.
Yeah, yeah.
And so it's just that exegetingof your society was a very uh it
was a great learning curve forus.
Um, we love, love Austinites andTexans and Americans in general.
(09:14):
What an incredible, generous anduh God-fearing, welcoming
people.
But at the same time, uhconsumerism is rife.
Yeah, and comfort is king.
And those things don'tnecessarily go with the gospel
as I read it.
(09:36):
So it's a wonderful people toget to know and to to minister
to.
Uh, but at the same time, youknow, there's some there's some
parts of culture.
Any culture has components thatare good, components that are
neutral, and components that arebad.
Yeah.
And it's discerning which partsof this culture do you
assimilate and just pick up andyou know, because they're it's
(09:58):
good, yeah, which things areneutral and you know, it doesn't
matter, and which things need tobe addressed.
And sometimes coming fromanother culture helps you see
that and and position you to saysomething.
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Now you have we we started inthe opening talking a little bit
about leadership and theimportance of taking other
people with you.
You seem to have had like asense of that from very early on
in your ministry.
Uh, two questions I have aboutthat.
One is like what prompted thatin you?
Like, what was it that causedyou to believe like this is a
(10:30):
responsibility?
Like, not just I have thiscalling over here and this might
happen along the way.
It's like, no, this is a centralpiece of what I'm supposed to
do.
Like, where did that come from?
And and what are you discoveringabout that as you go?
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
It it I'd I'd say the biggest lesson for me uh in
that just kind of latching ontomoving here, um, was that
success is obedience.
It's not a number of people,it's not a certain amount in
your 401k.
Yeah, yeah, it's not fame orfortune.
(11:07):
Success is obedience.
And if you have any otherdefinition of success, it will
drive you into things that isn'tgodly.
And and it was such a goodlesson for us to to to move from
uh a space where we had seemingsuccess to starting over with
nothing, you know, packing yourlife into eight suitcases was
such a good moment for us tokind of learn that success is
(11:30):
obedience.
And and for me, that isleadership.
Whether you're you're leading asa homemaker at home and you're
leading your kids, if that'swhat God has called you to and
that's all you do, then thatsuccess is that.
Yeah.
And if God's called you to leadthousands of people, then
success is that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:48):
Um, so I think you you mentioned early on, and I'll
I'll comment on that as well, isI think uh a lot is being said
in contemporary culture aboutthis idea of self-discovery.
But the reality is that if youdiscover yourself in Christ,
what you grow in is not onlylove of self, but discovering
(12:09):
yourself in Christ causes you tolove others.
Yeah, and then you can no longerlive for self.
And I think that's sometimes theproblem with self-discovery is
we pitch self-discovery, wepitch self-love as the this
self-fulfilling reality.
But self-made people, yeah,self-made people worship their
(12:30):
creator.
unknown (12:32):
Good point.
SPEAKER_02 (12:34):
But if we are God-made people, yeah, then we
recognize the image of God inothers, and then we can't help
but live for others.
Yeah.
And I think that's the theessence of leadership is loving
other people.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
And and what and what does that look like for
you?
So I I I know you've had a anumber of different projects.
You do a lot of traveling aroundthe world.
So this whole idea of leadershipdevelopment is like core to your
calling.
What is it, what is it, how doesit play out for you?
SPEAKER_02 (13:04):
Well, I think it it it plays out for all of us in
the application of our gifts,right?
So God has given us the each ofus the ability to do certain
things well.
So how do you how do you do thethings that you do well for the
sake of other people is what itcomes down to.
Um I I I am not very smart, butI've got amazing friends.
So most of the most of thethings I do around the world is
(13:28):
is essentially just that.
It's it's building bridges, it'sbuilding platforms for others,
it's trying to find the goldenpeople and and lifting it out of
them.
And nothing is more fulfillingfor me than seeing others
flourish.
So um that's the hope.
That's the goal.
Whether I always manage that isa whole nother story, but it
(13:50):
certainly is the desire.
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
And when you look at the world and what you're
addressing in the world in termsof leadership and leadership
development, um two follow-upquestions.
What are you excited about?
Like, what do you see out therethat's encouraging?
And is there something that'slike giving you pause?
Like, I don't know, that's notlooking very good.
SPEAKER_02 (14:13):
So I'm I'm gonna answer the question in inverse.
Um, so I I I recently ended upwriting a book.
I I've for many years I've I'vebeen saying, um, I don't want to
write a book because there'senough books out there, right?
And and in actual fact, I wasgonna write a book on if ever I
write a book, I wanted to writea book on followership because
(14:33):
everybody's writing aboutleadership.
And you know, when are we gonnalearn to follow?
Um, but then I I got involved ina conversation.
One of the things I lead iscalled the Next Move Community,
and it's a it's a community oftransformational relationships
um uh from you know leadersaround the world.
And we had a conversation aboutuh trusting God for revival in
(14:55):
the next generation.
And in the process, we had tokind of understand culture,
right?
So we we were trying to be likethe sons of Issachar in in 1
Chronicles 12 to understand thetimes.
And so we went through thatexercise.
Out of that conversation, I gotinvited uh by the World
Evangelical Alliance tofacilitate a conversation uh
(15:16):
with 270 leaders from uh allaround the world around in
Istanbul on this issue of thefuture of the gospel.
And then uh out of that, I gotinvited by the International
Council of EvangelicalTheological Education.
It's a mouthful.
Uh to stumbling.
I've had to say it a couple oftimes.
(15:38):
But anyway, so I did aconsultation for them uh in
Albania on the future oftheological education.
Parallel to this, I was workingwith the Lusanne movement, which
is kind of the United Nationsfor the church, right?
So 30,000 denominations aroundthe world subscribe to the
Lusanne Covenant, and it's kindof this unifying body uh on the
(16:00):
States of the Great Commissionreport.
So all of this kind ofculminated in this body of
information about the states ofthe world.
Um and I realized that in arapidly changing world, we've
gotta we've gotta responddifferently.
Um and so to your first to yourquestion, the first part is is
what gives me pause is the rateof change around the world gives
(16:23):
me pause.
Humanity isn't made to respondat the rate that we're having to
respond.
Uh if you think about it, theworld has changed more in 10
years than in 50 years beforethat.
It's changed more in since theyear 2000 than what it changed
since the 40s, right?
So, and if you look at it, thelast hundred years of human
(16:45):
existence has changed more thanthe thousand years before that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (16:48):
Um, you know, and it's just staggering, right?
Uh you know, so so knowledgevelocity uh at the time of
Christ, it takes a thousandyears for uh the world's
knowledge to to double, right?
That's the rate at whichknowledge doubles.
By the 40s, we get to like a 23uh space.
Uh the early 2000s, you'reyou're talking about you know, a
(17:11):
couple months.
Um they recently did a thing, itit looks like it's about 12
hours at the moment that ittakes for the the body of human
knowledge to double.
So, so you know if we see oneanother tomorrow, what humanity
knows would have doubled bythen.
Wow.
Um, so we can't keep up.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:33):
And and so seeing the rate at which things change
gives me pause.
At the same time, if you if youdouble click on how these things
change, uh what excites me isthere's an opportunity for the
gospel in every single one ofthe ways that the world is
changing.
So I said I'm not very smart, soI had to take all these
different conversations and boilit down to three things.
(17:55):
And those three things is whatthe book is about, is basically
the three ways the world ischanging and how it impacts the
gospel and how Christian leadersneed to read.
What's the name of the book?
Hitting the ball you cannot see.
SPEAKER_03 (18:08):
I love it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:09):
So it's it's it's the analogy that, like in in
baseball or in in cricket forthe rest of the world, uh when a
fastball comes your way, uhbiologically, it's impossible to
see it.
It's impossible to hit itbecause it takes uh a 90 mile
per hour fastball takes uh 425milliseconds from leaving the
(18:30):
pitcher's hand to when you needto hit it in the bat with the
bat.
But it takes you 600milliseconds to see the ball,
send the m message to yourmuscle and swing the bat.
So you're 200 odd millisecondsshort in that process.
So how do you hit the ball?
You anticipate, you don't seethe ball.
(18:52):
And essentially, with the worldchanging as quickly as it does,
we need to learn to anticipatebecause we can't see it coming.
But we've got to hit the ballwhere it isn't yet.
SPEAKER_00 (19:01):
Yeah.
You know, there was an analogygiven to me um early in my
ministry, uh, and and and andI'm just reminded of it as
you're sharing, that we werehaving some trouble in our
congregation.
Yeah, people were veryunsettled, and I could not
exactly figure out why.
And like you were sayingearlier, sometimes you're just
too close to the scenario andneed somebody to come in and and
(19:23):
kind of give you a perspectivethat you didn't have.
And so we hired a consultant.
And one of the things he said tome, he gave me this analogy, he
said, What's happening in yourchurch is that change and
acceptance of change is like aseesaw.
So you you you make a change,and then usually if as a leader,
you know you you've becomeaccustomed to that change, but
(19:45):
you have to give thecongregation a chance to embrace
it.
Yeah.
But what you've been doing islike you make a change, the
congregation's just getting, andyou make another, and another,
and another, and you've brokenthe seesaw.
Yeah.
Wow.
And I thought, wow, that thatwas really helpful.
Paid a lot of money for thatanalogy.
SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
A lot of people have very broken seesaws.
SPEAKER_00 (20:08):
No, exactly.
Wow.
Yeah.
And I and as you're talking, itmakes me a little like, whoa.
If if it if and that was back inthe 90s, I guess.
Yeah.
So if things are accelerating inthe culture uh at a speed and
we're trying to keep up withthat, wow.
SPEAKER_02 (20:25):
It's it it's crazy.
It really is crazy.
And it's it's on every level,you know.
So so the three things, whichI'm sure I hope you were
wondering about.
Um but but it is I I am.
I'm just very curious.
You were reason you werewondering if I was leaving it
out that people need to buy thebook.
Um, but but essentially it's uhit's changes in the human
(20:48):
experience, changes in the waythings work, and changes in the
way we connect.
Now, this is the point where yougo, uh that's pretty logical,
but but it it's logical, butit's true.
It's exactly the the changes.
So there's six shifts, two undereach of these that kind of make
up the book.
But to give an example of thebroken seesaw, is we're in the
(21:12):
greatest identity crisis inhuman history.
Um there's never been a time inhuman history where humans has
wondered this much about what itmeans to be human.
See, because we we went throughthese evolutions, right?
I survived, therefore I am,right?
If you think right back to earlydays, then it became I I make,
(21:34):
therefore I am, I make fire,therefore I am, right?
I I can do things.
And then it became well, Ithink, therefore I am.
Uh and then we went to I feel,therefore I am, right?
So the whole, you know, men cancry too thing.
And but but then it came to thepoint where we said I create,
therefore I am.
So the the last identityevolution of humanity was this
(21:57):
concept of uh influencers rule,right?
So if you ask kids these days,what do you want to become?
It isn't president, it's I wantto be an influencer, yeah,
right.
So it's this creativity is thething that that makes us who we
are.
The problem is all these thingsthat I just mentioned has now
been copied by AI.
So what does that do to ouridentity, right?
(22:19):
When when my creativity doesn'tmake me human and my ability to
reason doesn't make me myempathy doesn't make me human.
What then makes us human?
And so we're going into a timewhere it's going to be less
about sexual identity and moreabout human identity, um crisis
in humanity.
(22:40):
But at the same time, that givesme pause.
But what excites me is thegospel has an answer to that.
The gospel has an answer tothat.
So what an opportunity for us toremind people that they're
they're they're not physicalbeings with a spiritual
experience, they're spiritualbeings with a physical
experience.
Yeah.
Right?
So our identity is firstlyrooted in Christ.
(23:02):
And so the metaphysical, thesupernatural is is suddenly so
big.
And and what we're seeing instudies around the world of
where you're seeing churchgrowth and where you're seeing
churches flourishing, it's wherechurches are reminding people of
the spiritual identity.
Because, you know, as one of thepeople I interviewed for the
book said, is you know, AI cando all kinds of things that
(23:23):
humans can do, but AI can't dowhat God can do.
Right?
And because we're of the Godkind, because we're in the image
of God, there's this opportunitythat's being created by this
global identity crisis for thegospel.
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
You know, it's interesting you mentioned that I
just saw um a news report.
There was this big, and youprobably saw too, there was this
big gathering in the UK, youknow, UK first kind of thing.
And Elon Musk uh spoke to thatgroup, and one of the things he
talked about, and I had avisceral reaction, I was kind of
surprised by it.
He said, the hope for our futureis technology.
(24:02):
And I found myself thinking,well, yeah, there are a lot of
things that are going to be goodbecause of technology, but it is
not our hope for the future.
It is, it comes back to whatwe've just been talking about,
is like rooting our identity insomething beyond the natural
world.
That's it.
And that when we have it inChrist, we find meaning,
purpose, a reason for living,and um it it gives us something
(24:26):
sure to stand on, right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
That's it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
So good.
And and it's and it's like itsounds obvious like you were
saying, but it isn't.
I mean, it's like we need thatreminder because there's a lot
of things shifting, and when alot of things are shifting, you
gotta find a place to put youryour feet that are steady and
stable.
SPEAKER_02 (24:43):
But but uh you're actually connecting a couple of
dots for me in what you'resaying, because we have this,
you know, what does it mean?
Definition of humanity is thefirst shift.
The second shift is digitalexistence, right?
So how we're uh seeing a secondgeneration of digital natives.
So there's a generation growingup, which will be the first
(25:04):
generation in human historywhose parents would know more
about technology than them,right?
So so it's no longer parentsasking kids to help them with
technology, it's now those kidsthat's grown up and they're
they're educating their kids.
So they're not just havingdigital natives as kids, they're
(25:24):
digital natives as parents.
So it's a second generationdigital native.
So you have thishyper-digitization, but then in
this space, what's happening isis actually we're getting
curated information, soindividually curated
information.
When I open my news app, whenyou open your news app, we're
getting two different websites.
(25:45):
Yes, that's right.
Right?
So your social media feed, mysocial media feed, it's
algorithm identified to me.
Uh previous generation, thebiggest challenge in the family
was to get them all away fromwatching the same thing in front
of the television to sittingaround a table having a
conversation.
This generation wish they wouldall watch the same thing.
(26:05):
They're all on their owndevices, right?
So what has happened is we'velost even these common spaces of
engagement.
And so now that's the humanexperience changing.
Now the way the world organizeshas changed.
So now we've seen this inversebell curve where uh seeing that
watching the same news, watchingthe same movies, watching the
same television has created abell curve where the bulk of
(26:28):
humanity is in the center andthe few of humanity is on the
edges, right?
So so the people on the there'sextremes, but most people are in
the center of any issue.
The problem is that bell curvehas swapped upside down, right?
So humanity was unifying,European Union, uh, United
Nations, come together, cometogether, come together.
(26:49):
Since Brexit, we've seen theopposite, right?
So this protest case in point.
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
So technology has caused a society when the
minimum is in the middle andmost people are on the edges.
Because why?
Everybody's getting curated,everything around their
preferences, around their likes,which reinforces whatever bent
they have, it reinforces themand it pushes society aside.
Yeah.
So these shifts are one on theother.
(27:15):
Yeah.
And they're actually in thatstory you're telling, they all
come together.
SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So wow.
Um, so when you when you thinkabout your work right now and
you know, providing leadershipto this whole conversation, um,
what what do you see as yourprimary role?
What it what are you trying tolike?
It sounds to me like part ofwhat you're doing is
vocabularizing it, like givingpeople words to describe what
(27:41):
they're like feeling and seeing.
But is there another role thatyou kind of see yourself filling
out?
SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Yeah, I think I I think we're um there's some
people that are great firstthought leaders, and I really
admire them.
Uh, they're visionaries, theyhave these ideas and people
follow them.
I'm not one of them.
Uh, I'm a second thought leader.
So so I find myself in thecurator space um even more than
I find myself in the creatorspace.
(28:11):
So, you know, the you mentionedkind of vocabularizing things,
but I think it's the best bookswe've re read are not the ones
that tell us something new.
Uh it's the ones that give us anarrative for what we already
knew.
Yeah.
Right.
So it gives us words becausebecause words are uh if you've
ever tried to deal with waterwithout a container, it's very
(28:32):
hard to do anything with it.
Yeah.
But but containers make waterusable.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And words makes life palatable,right?
We can manage it, we can dosomething with it.
So I think that's a big part ofwhat I see God using me for, but
but mostly I'm just afacilitator and a connector and
and you know, being able to touh facilitate the leadership
(28:55):
that God has placed in othersfor me is the is the the
greatest joy in leadershipmyself.
Um so I obviously lovecommunicating and and doing
these things, but uh, but Ireally see that as uh a key part
of my role is is who are thepeople that the world needs to
hear right now and how can Ibuild a platform for them um and
(29:17):
set them up?
Great, I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
All right, can I can I go on a little more personal
journey with you?
SPEAKER_02 (29:24):
Um so I mean yeah, I I I can't leave even if I try
to.
SPEAKER_00 (29:29):
So, you know, I hear about all you're doing, and you
know, you see, so you do a lotof traveling, you you're
obviously very active atShoreline, you teach, um, you
have all kinds of leadershipresponsibilities there.
You have a family and teenagers,and I'm like, how the heck does
he hold it all together?
(29:50):
And it's not just like from aschedule perspective, but I you
know, we've had otherconversations and I've watched
how you lead, and and and Iguess.
The sense that you want to bethe kind of person that is
leading out of the overflow.
Like I don't want to just kindof talk about things I've
learned or known.
I want my ministry to come froma full place where I've been
(30:14):
connecting to God, God's beeninvesting in me.
And I know for myself, I've I'vehad seasons of my life that look
a lot like what yours lookslike.
And sad to say that one of thethings that kind of came was
part of the cost of that wasthat I was not as attentive to
(30:34):
that personal uh development,that personal connection to God.
And I started paying a price forthat with my family and my own
work with uh with people, even.
And and I found myself, youknow, talking about things that
I knew other people should bedoing, but that I wasn't
necessarily doing myself.
And I I'm just curious howyou've been able and are you
(30:56):
able to balance all of thattogether?
SPEAKER_02 (31:00):
Yeah, a couple thoughts.
I think the the short answer,how have I been doing is poorly.
Um, you know, because I thinkthere's a lot of room for
improvement.
Um, and there always is, right?
Is as we we we we the we've gotto ruthlessly eliminate hurry
from our lives, but it's it'shard, it's tough.
Um I don't really believe inbalance, and maybe that if I had
(31:24):
a key, that would be it.
Um because I I don't see manybalanced figures in the Bible.
I don't think Jesus was strivingfor balance.
He he was so tired he couldn'tkeep his eyes open, he was
totally given to things, um, buthe wasn't hurried and he wasn't
(31:45):
stressed and he was doing itright.
I mean, look at biblicalfigures, you know.
But who in the Bible lived asuper balanced life?
It's tough to find one, right?
Because the reality is uh Idon't think it's about balance,
I think it's about priority.
And for me, that is probably thenumber one key is success is
(32:05):
obedience, and God is mypriority, and obedience to God
is my priority.
Um, and sometimes being obedientto God means that I uh need to
be absent from my family to bepresent to something God is
giving me to do.
Um, but sometimes obediencemeans saying no to the greatest
opportunity ever to be presentwith my family.
(32:26):
So it's not trying to balance,but it's trying to give priority
to what God wants to do, not tomy own ambition, not to
opportunity.
Um, and I think I think that'sone of the keys.
And then if it's priority andnot balance, then you're able to
compartmentalize and truly bepresent.
Yeah.
So what I've learned is um it'smore damaging for family life
(32:49):
for me to be everywhere all thetime than for me to be not
present and then truly present.
Yeah, yeah.
It's more dangerous for me to besomewhat present.
Um so so I've really justprioritized that over the years.
And you know, Karen, my wife, isa superstar, and you've had a
her year, so I'm definitely thejunior varsity team.
(33:12):
But but but the the reality isjust, you know, she's helped
over the years, and and andwe've had rhythms like like
dinner time, right?
So I'd be in different timezones, but but even you know,
before video calling was athing, is we'd have dinner
around the family table, and Iwould just whatever time zone
I'm in, I'll I'll try andprioritize that moment.
So when the kids were small,dinner time, I'd be around the
(33:35):
table on a video call with themif I was traveling.
Yeah.
So there was that stability ofthat moment of engagement and
conversation, and they didn'thave to, you know, have an
awkward conversation with me.
They could just have the normaldinner conversation that we'd
always have around the table.
Dad was just present on videosometimes and not in person.
Um and then I think the otherthing is just strategic neglect.
(33:58):
We um we've got to get better atneglecting some things that
aren't helpful.
Uh, the reality is every one ofus are given a certain amount of
hours on this earth, and everymoment we spend on something is
a moment that we've spent.
So we're attaching a price tagto our lives as we live.
(34:21):
Um, and I think that's beencontinuously sobering to me is
to ask that question is is thistruly worth my time?
Is this truly worth myinvestment?
So um, you know, the family lifething has just been
intentionality.
I mean, I I when I travel, I'llI'll take the VR headset along.
I've got teenage boys, so um,you know, to try and call them
(34:42):
or text them, it's like, how'syour day?
Good.
You know?
Why?
Because, you know, it's likeit's impossible.
But if I put on the VR and we'replaying table tennis while I'm
in another state, um they openup because we're doing something
together.
So so it's it's it has beenbeing creative about it, being
(35:05):
creative about time with Karinwhere we would just have certain
rhythms in place.
And then just, you know, thatanchoring, overflow, time with
God is I the travel seemsglamorous.
Anybody that hasn't done itthinks it's it this amazing
glamorous life.
Um I I do about a a hundredflights a year, so that's kind
(35:25):
of what I've averaged the lastthree or four years, and and um
it's brutal because you lose allsense of rhythm, you lose all
sense of kind of this is normal,you you've got to but I've I've
learned that something like timewith God, if if first thing you
do is spend time with God, andthat's your rhythm in the day,
it just keep those coreanchoring rhythms, right?
(35:50):
So so often that is on a planewhere I've just woken up, but
I'm woken up on a plane, andrather than going, okay, what
movie am I gonna watch?
I'm just going, no, this is myquiet time with God.
Doesn't matter where I am, whatI'm doing.
So I think those things havebeen dying, but all these things
that I've just said uh doesn'tmean I'm doing it well.
It just means I really want todo it better.
(36:10):
Um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Uh one of the things that you said that I I've been
kind of reflecting a little biton myself.
I I saw a post and I kind ofreflected on it in in a post
myself, but the the new life youwant is gonna cost you the old
life you're used to.
And and and you know, it's it'slike a little cliche thing, but
(36:32):
it's it is so true, you know,that there are things that God
is gonna keep calling us to.
And as a result of that, we'regonna have to let go of some
things that have becomefamiliar, that are comfortable,
but are no longer strategic.
And so being willing to say,okay, uh, like you were talking
(36:53):
about, evaluating thosepriorities and saying, okay, is
this really still something Ineed to be giving myself to?
Or is it one of the things thathas to fall by the wayside in
order to stay faithful to myquiet time, to my family, and to
the new priorities that God hasplaced on me?
Um so that, yeah, I appreciatethe affirmation because I think
that's so true.
SPEAKER_02 (37:14):
And and and it's uh when we uh success is far more
dangerous than failure.
Because failure causes us to trysomething else.
Success causes us to do what wedid.
And I think sometimes we'restuck in rhythms because it
worked in the past.
And success tests us in waysfailure failure never will.
(37:36):
So true.
Right.
So we've gotta we've gottachallenge past success and force
ourselves to say just because itworked doesn't mean it's gonna
work.
Uh it's easy when we fail to tryin a better way, right?
Because we've got I've got to dosomething different.
But it's when we succeed that wereally struggle.
And you asked me earlier aboutkind of shifting to the US.
(38:00):
Is I I I think if you if youlook at at one of the vices of
the US culture, it's this uhassumption of success, this
assumption of comfort, thisassumption of living within your
comfort zone.
Um that we're okay, the world'sokay, everything's gonna be okay
(38:20):
because everything around me isokay.
But the reality is it it isn'tthe case everywhere, and it's
not necessarily gonna be thecase just because it's been the
case.
Yeah.
And so it's one of the one ofthe key things.
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (38:36):
All right, I want to give you the last word.
Is there something else that'suh kind of on your heart in
light of all the things we'vetalked about that you want to
share before we close out?
SPEAKER_02 (38:45):
Just uh a privilege to be here.
Thank you, uh Pete, for havingthese conversations.
I think um you know, pe peoplethere's this part in in Psalm 23
where it says uh he makes me liedown in green pastures, right?
Um he makes me lie down by stillwaters and green pastures.
(39:08):
But what we forget is the hemakes us.
And I I really think you have aunique ability to make people
pause and reflect.
And um, yeah, I'm justencouraged by what you're doing.
So thank you for making peopletake a moment to lie down.
Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (39:27):
Well, I appreciate it.
And again, in light of yourschedule, I'm grateful you made
the time for this.
And so thank you for being here.
And thank you for joining us foruh this sidewalk conversation
where we had an opportunity tokind of walk alongside Yuri in
the adventure of his life.
We will be noting his new bookin the notes and encourage you
to pick it up.
(39:47):
I think that he shared enough tokind of pique our curiosity, and
I think we might be uh helped byit, especially in the fast paced
life that we're living.
So thank you for joining us, andthen join us next week when we
have another sidewalkconversation.
All right, welcome to another Sidewalk
Conversation.
I am your host, Pete Van Ward,and I'm so glad that you've
decided to join us.
And uh I have always had aninterest in the topic of
leadership from very early on inmy Christian journey.
I was fascinated by people whocould lead well.
And maybe part of it was becauseI didn't see myself as a very
(00:21):
effective leader.
It wasn't something thatnaturally came to me.
And so I watched a lot of otherpeople and learned as much as I
could from watching those peopleand then listening to what they
had to say.
And so I became a ferociousreader and I became a student of
other leaders.
And a quote that stuck with mefrom fairly early on was by the
(00:45):
notorious CEO of GE, Jack Welsh,where he said, When you are not
yet a leader, success is allabout growing yourself.
But once you become a leader,success is all about growing
others.
Now, the guest that I have todayhas been about that second part
(01:07):
of the equation for as long asI've known him.
And I'm I'm sure that as youhear his story, you're going to
be impressed by all the waysthat God has used him as an
influencer in the lives of otherpeople, not just here locally in
the States, but actually allaround the world.
And so I'm very excited aboutyou having an opportunity to
(01:28):
meet him, and I can't wait tointroduce him to you.
(01:50):
That's the church that I attendas a volunteer, and many of the
guests that I've had are alsopart of that congregation.
And if you happen to be in theAustin area and you're looking
for a home church, I just wantto suggest that Shoreline might
be a church for you to consider.
They are also generoussupporters of the foundation
that supports this work.
(02:10):
And so it's not just thatthey're a good church.
I have a special uh uhappreciation for the work that
they do in supporting this work.
And in fact, the guest that Ihave today is one of the pastors
at that church.
And so, would you help mewelcome my guest, Yuri Creel?
Thank you, Yuri, for being here.
(02:30):
Thanks, Pete.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
It's good to be with you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
All right, people are gonna know right off the
bat, by your accident, that youare not Texan.
What do you mean?
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
It's my uh it's my southern draw.
It's just a different south.
It's not uh Yeah, a littlefurther south.
A little further south, SouthAfrica.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah, so um that's actually where I want to begin.
I want to just kind of get alittle like 30,000-foot view of
your story and your life.
And um like, how did you getfrom South Africa to southern
Texas or southern Texas?
Only Jesus.
unknown (03:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:08):
So I mean, the the the story for us was
interesting.
I mean, we were uh actually theday Corin and I met, uh, we were
17, and our very firstconversation was about the call
of God upon our lives and how weboth felt a call to the U.S.
as missionaries, which isstrange for South Africans to
feel called to the US.
(03:28):
Yeah.
So, I mean, fast forward manyyears, uh married life, two
kids, uh, two churches, uh,multiple things later, um, God's
reminding us of this call.
And so uh through a long seriesof events, he confirms it.
And then uh eventually we knowit's the US, but we have no idea
(03:50):
where.
And God challenges us to starthanding over leadership.
So there's an 18-month periodwhere we're handing over
leadership and kind of steppingout in faith, knowing that it's
the US, but the US is a bigplace.
Um and uh I uh at the time uh Iwas pastoring a church, but I
was also uh helping lead a cityunity movement in our city, and
(04:13):
uh through a series of events, Igot to know Tim Hawkes in
Austin.
Uh just we became back then itwas Skype, right?
So it kind of dates the story alittle bit, but uh we we became
friends over Skype and uh hewatched some of my preaching
online, invites me to preach hisuh at his church, and um I have
no idea, I have no idea whereAustin is.
(04:34):
I I asked him if it's far fromNew York because I had meetings
in New York, and he was like,it's close, and I'm like, it's
not close, but anyway, so I'mheading to Austin, uh having
never been, and uh God actuallyspoke to me in a dream.
Um Wow Uh, which you know hasnever been that vivid in my
life.
Uh come to Austin, spend aweekend here, I just know this
(04:58):
is where God wants us.
Um yeah, so fast forward, youknow, another 18 months.
Uh, and uh, you know, God madethe way and everything else.
So one day I sat to him down andI said, Do you do you remember
how I was so sure that Godwanted me here?
Well, God spoke to me in adream.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
So it's uh was quite the quite the story.
Uh just to back up a little bit,so the whole idea of being a
missionary to the US, yeah.
Like normally we think ofmissionary work being to you
know third world countries andsuch.
Not too many Africans beingmissionaries to, you know.
(05:34):
Yeah.
So did you like when you firstbegan to feel that impression,
did you have like a sense oflike, Lord, are you is this and
did anybody else like questionit for you?
Did they say like oh everybody?
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
I I mean it's you know, if if if God calls you to
something and you feel like Ican do this, it's probably not
God because He calls us to stuffthat we can't do by ourselves.
Um, and this was definitely oneof those.
So this was one of those momentswhere you you know it's got to
be God, and understanding it, Iguess, is um I mean when when we
(06:10):
felt called here, uh the thewhole idea of the dechurching of
the next generation in the USwasn't a concept.
SPEAKER_03 (06:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
But as we became a part of it, we very soon
realized that uh the contrast ofdifferent spaces and other
places and an experience of Godthat wasn't necessarily uh bred
within the local church context.
Yeah, you know, it's it's it'sthat old thing of you know,
never ask a fish for thetemperature of the water because
(06:41):
it doesn't know the temperature,it's just the water.
Yeah, right.
And oftentimes when you grow upin a particular culture in a
particular space, you don't knowthe ins and outs of that culture
because you've got nothing tocontrast it with.
SPEAKER_03 (06:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:55):
And actually, as we started fulfilling the mission
of God in the US, weincreasingly realized that
something we could bring was alittle bit of that contrast
because you know, we came intothe water from another space.
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
I love that analogy.
Awesome.
Okay, so when you came to theStates, what were what were some
of the like surprises,transitions that uh you had to
make?
Obviously, there's a languagething and all that, but like
were were there some significantlike what I had to learn to
speak American, which isn'tEnglish.
SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
So I that's an ongoing project.
We haven't got that one down.
Um I think there's a couple ofthings uh I've I've been
privileged in that I've I'vetraveled to 46 countries and you
know seen a lot of the world andwe had worked extensively in
Europe, planting churches anddoing other things.
So I I got to see a lot, butit's different to live in a
(07:48):
place than to visit a place.
Yeah, right.
So so even visiting the US,ministering in the US is very
different than than assimilatinginto a culture and becoming a
part of that culture.
So um some of the some of theearly shocks in the process was
that homeless people wore shoes,which for most Americans is of
(08:09):
course homeless people wearshoes.
But but in most of the world, ifyou're homeless, you're you
don't have money for shoes.
Yeah, right.
And if you can't afford shoes,you're probably okay to live
with other people.
And and this is what I'velearned is I've learned that
actually homelessness isn't thelack of money, it's the lack of
relationship.
(08:30):
Um now you could say it's mentalhealth, you could say it's many
different things, you could sayit's opportunity, but the
reality is by the time a personends up shelterless, it means
that they've burnt everyrelationship to the point where
that's where they're at.
Yeah.
Um, so it's it's those types ofdynamics that I think was really
interesting for us living inthis context and seeing how
(08:53):
addressing the needs ofcommunity needs to look
different in this context thanwhat it does in an African
context or in a Europeancontext.
Yeah, yeah.
And so it's just that exegetingof your society was a very uh it
was a great learning curve forus.
Um, we love, love Austinites andTexans and Americans in general.
(09:14):
What an incredible, generous anduh God-fearing, welcoming
people.
But at the same time, uhconsumerism is rife.
Yeah, and comfort is king.
And those things don'tnecessarily go with the gospel
as I read it.
(09:36):
So it's a wonderful people toget to know and to to minister
to.
Uh, but at the same time, youknow, there's some there's some
parts of culture.
Any culture has components thatare good, components that are
neutral, and components that arebad.
Yeah.
And it's discerning which partsof this culture do you
assimilate and just pick up andyou know, because they're it's
(09:58):
good, yeah, which things areneutral and you know, it doesn't
matter, and which things need tobe addressed.
And sometimes coming fromanother culture helps you see
that and and position you to saysomething.
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Now you have we we started inthe opening talking a little bit
about leadership and theimportance of taking other
people with you.
You seem to have had like asense of that from very early on
in your ministry.
Uh, two questions I have aboutthat.
One is like what prompted thatin you?
Like, what was it that causedyou to believe like this is a
(10:30):
responsibility?
Like, not just I have thiscalling over here and this might
happen along the way.
It's like, no, this is a centralpiece of what I'm supposed to
do.
Like, where did that come from?
And and what are you discoveringabout that as you go?
SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
It it I'd I'd say the biggest lesson for me uh in
that just kind of latching ontomoving here, um, was that
success is obedience.
It's not a number of people,it's not a certain amount in
your 401k.
Yeah, yeah, it's not fame orfortune.
(11:07):
Success is obedience.
And if you have any otherdefinition of success, it will
drive you into things that isn'tgodly.
And and it was such a goodlesson for us to to to move from
uh a space where we had seemingsuccess to starting over with
nothing, you know, packing yourlife into eight suitcases was
such a good moment for us tokind of learn that success is
(11:30):
obedience.
And and for me, that isleadership.
Whether you're you're leading asa homemaker at home and you're
leading your kids, if that'swhat God has called you to and
that's all you do, then thatsuccess is that.
Yeah.
And if God's called you to leadthousands of people, then
success is that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:48):
Um, so I think you you mentioned early on, and I'll
I'll comment on that as well, isI think uh a lot is being said
in contemporary culture aboutthis idea of self-discovery.
But the reality is that if youdiscover yourself in Christ,
what you grow in is not onlylove of self, but discovering
(12:09):
yourself in Christ causes you tolove others.
Yeah, and then you can no longerlive for self.
And I think that's sometimes theproblem with self-discovery is
we pitch self-discovery, wepitch self-love as the this
self-fulfilling reality.
But self-made people, yeah,self-made people worship their
(12:30):
creator.
unknown (12:32):
Good point.
SPEAKER_02 (12:34):
But if we are God-made people, yeah, then we
recognize the image of God inothers, and then we can't help
but live for others.
Yeah.
And I think that's the theessence of leadership is loving
other people.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
And and what and what does that look like for
you?
So I I I know you've had a anumber of different projects.
You do a lot of traveling aroundthe world.
So this whole idea of leadershipdevelopment is like core to your
calling.
What is it, what is it, how doesit play out for you?
SPEAKER_02 (13:04):
Well, I think it it it plays out for all of us in
the application of our gifts,right?
So God has given us the each ofus the ability to do certain
things well.
So how do you how do you do thethings that you do well for the
sake of other people is what itcomes down to.
Um I I I am not very smart, butI've got amazing friends.
So most of the most of thethings I do around the world is
(13:28):
is essentially just that.
It's it's building bridges, it'sbuilding platforms for others,
it's trying to find the goldenpeople and and lifting it out of
them.
And nothing is more fulfillingfor me than seeing others
flourish.
So um that's the hope.
That's the goal.
Whether I always manage that isa whole nother story, but it
(13:50):
certainly is the desire.
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
And when you look at the world and what you're
addressing in the world in termsof leadership and leadership
development, um two follow-upquestions.
What are you excited about?
Like, what do you see out therethat's encouraging?
And is there something that'slike giving you pause?
Like, I don't know, that's notlooking very good.
SPEAKER_02 (14:13):
So I'm I'm gonna answer the question in inverse.
Um, so I I I recently ended upwriting a book.
I I've for many years I've I'vebeen saying, um, I don't want to
write a book because there'senough books out there, right?
And and in actual fact, I wasgonna write a book on if ever I
write a book, I wanted to writea book on followership because
(14:33):
everybody's writing aboutleadership.
And you know, when are we gonnalearn to follow?
Um, but then I I got involved ina conversation.
One of the things I lead iscalled the Next Move Community,
and it's a it's a community oftransformational relationships
um uh from you know leadersaround the world.
And we had a conversation aboutuh trusting God for revival in
(14:55):
the next generation.
And in the process, we had tokind of understand culture,
right?
So we we were trying to be likethe sons of Issachar in in 1
Chronicles 12 to understand thetimes.
And so we went through thatexercise.
Out of that conversation, I gotinvited uh by the World
Evangelical Alliance tofacilitate a conversation uh
(15:16):
with 270 leaders from uh allaround the world around in
Istanbul on this issue of thefuture of the gospel.
And then uh out of that, I gotinvited by the International
Council of EvangelicalTheological Education.
It's a mouthful.
Uh to stumbling.
I've had to say it a couple oftimes.
(15:38):
But anyway, so I did aconsultation for them uh in
Albania on the future oftheological education.
Parallel to this, I was workingwith the Lusanne movement, which
is kind of the United Nationsfor the church, right?
So 30,000 denominations aroundthe world subscribe to the
Lusanne Covenant, and it's kindof this unifying body uh on the
(16:00):
States of the Great Commissionreport.
So all of this kind ofculminated in this body of
information about the states ofthe world.
Um and I realized that in arapidly changing world, we've
gotta we've gotta responddifferently.
Um and so to your first to yourquestion, the first part is is
what gives me pause is the rateof change around the world gives
(16:23):
me pause.
Humanity isn't made to respondat the rate that we're having to
respond.
Uh if you think about it, theworld has changed more in 10
years than in 50 years beforethat.
It's changed more in since theyear 2000 than what it changed
since the 40s, right?
So, and if you look at it, thelast hundred years of human
(16:45):
existence has changed more thanthe thousand years before that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (16:48):
Um, you know, and it's just staggering, right?
Uh you know, so so knowledgevelocity uh at the time of
Christ, it takes a thousandyears for uh the world's
knowledge to to double, right?
That's the rate at whichknowledge doubles.
By the 40s, we get to like a 23uh space.
Uh the early 2000s, you'reyou're talking about you know, a
(17:11):
couple months.
Um they recently did a thing, itit looks like it's about 12
hours at the moment that ittakes for the the body of human
knowledge to double.
So, so you know if we see oneanother tomorrow, what humanity
knows would have doubled bythen.
Wow.
Um, so we can't keep up.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:33):
And and so seeing the rate at which things change
gives me pause.
At the same time, if you if youdouble click on how these things
change, uh what excites me isthere's an opportunity for the
gospel in every single one ofthe ways that the world is
changing.
So I said I'm not very smart, soI had to take all these
different conversations and boilit down to three things.
(17:55):
And those three things is whatthe book is about, is basically
the three ways the world ischanging and how it impacts the
gospel and how Christian leadersneed to read.
What's the name of the book?
Hitting the ball you cannot see.
SPEAKER_03 (18:08):
I love it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:09):
So it's it's it's the analogy that, like in in
baseball or in in cricket forthe rest of the world, uh when a
fastball comes your way, uhbiologically, it's impossible to
see it.
It's impossible to hit itbecause it takes uh a 90 mile
per hour fastball takes uh 425milliseconds from leaving the
(18:30):
pitcher's hand to when you needto hit it in the bat with the
bat.
But it takes you 600milliseconds to see the ball,
send the m message to yourmuscle and swing the bat.
So you're 200 odd millisecondsshort in that process.
So how do you hit the ball?
You anticipate, you don't seethe ball.
(18:52):
And essentially, with the worldchanging as quickly as it does,
we need to learn to anticipatebecause we can't see it coming.
But we've got to hit the ballwhere it isn't yet.
SPEAKER_00 (19:01):
Yeah.
You know, there was an analogygiven to me um early in my
ministry, uh, and and and andI'm just reminded of it as
you're sharing, that we werehaving some trouble in our
congregation.
Yeah, people were veryunsettled, and I could not
exactly figure out why.
And like you were sayingearlier, sometimes you're just
too close to the scenario andneed somebody to come in and and
(19:23):
kind of give you a perspectivethat you didn't have.
And so we hired a consultant.
And one of the things he said tome, he gave me this analogy, he
said, What's happening in yourchurch is that change and
acceptance of change is like aseesaw.
So you you you make a change,and then usually if as a leader,
you know you you've becomeaccustomed to that change, but
(19:45):
you have to give thecongregation a chance to embrace
it.
Yeah.
But what you've been doing islike you make a change, the
congregation's just getting, andyou make another, and another,
and another, and you've brokenthe seesaw.
Yeah.
Wow.
And I thought, wow, that thatwas really helpful.
Paid a lot of money for thatanalogy.
SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
A lot of people have very broken seesaws.
SPEAKER_00 (20:08):
No, exactly.
Wow.
Yeah.
And I and as you're talking, itmakes me a little like, whoa.
If if it if and that was back inthe 90s, I guess.
Yeah.
So if things are accelerating inthe culture uh at a speed and
we're trying to keep up withthat, wow.
SPEAKER_02 (20:25):
It's it it's crazy.
It really is crazy.
And it's it's on every level,you know.
So so the three things, whichI'm sure I hope you were
wondering about.
Um but but it is I I am.
I'm just very curious.
You were reason you werewondering if I was leaving it
out that people need to buy thebook.
Um, but but essentially it's uhit's changes in the human
(20:48):
experience, changes in the waythings work, and changes in the
way we connect.
Now, this is the point where yougo, uh that's pretty logical,
but but it it's logical, butit's true.
It's exactly the the changes.
So there's six shifts, two undereach of these that kind of make
up the book.
But to give an example of thebroken seesaw, is we're in the
(21:12):
greatest identity crisis inhuman history.
Um there's never been a time inhuman history where humans has
wondered this much about what itmeans to be human.
See, because we we went throughthese evolutions, right?
I survived, therefore I am,right?
If you think right back to earlydays, then it became I I make,
(21:34):
therefore I am, I make fire,therefore I am, right?
I I can do things.
And then it became well, Ithink, therefore I am.
Uh and then we went to I feel,therefore I am, right?
So the whole, you know, men cancry too thing.
And but but then it came to thepoint where we said I create,
therefore I am.
So the the last identityevolution of humanity was this
(21:57):
concept of uh influencers rule,right?
So if you ask kids these days,what do you want to become?
It isn't president, it's I wantto be an influencer, yeah,
right.
So it's this creativity is thething that that makes us who we
are.
The problem is all these thingsthat I just mentioned has now
been copied by AI.
So what does that do to ouridentity, right?
(22:19):
When when my creativity doesn'tmake me human and my ability to
reason doesn't make me myempathy doesn't make me human.
What then makes us human?
And so we're going into a timewhere it's going to be less
about sexual identity and moreabout human identity, um crisis
in humanity.
(22:40):
But at the same time, that givesme pause.
But what excites me is thegospel has an answer to that.
The gospel has an answer tothat.
So what an opportunity for us toremind people that they're
they're they're not physicalbeings with a spiritual
experience, they're spiritualbeings with a physical
experience.
Yeah.
Right?
So our identity is firstlyrooted in Christ.
(23:02):
And so the metaphysical, thesupernatural is is suddenly so
big.
And and what we're seeing instudies around the world of
where you're seeing churchgrowth and where you're seeing
churches flourishing, it's wherechurches are reminding people of
the spiritual identity.
Because, you know, as one of thepeople I interviewed for the
book said, is you know, AI cando all kinds of things that
(23:23):
humans can do, but AI can't dowhat God can do.
Right?
And because we're of the Godkind, because we're in the image
of God, there's this opportunitythat's being created by this
global identity crisis for thegospel.
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
You know, it's interesting you mentioned that I
just saw um a news report.
There was this big, and youprobably saw too, there was this
big gathering in the UK, youknow, UK first kind of thing.
And Elon Musk uh spoke to thatgroup, and one of the things he
talked about, and I had avisceral reaction, I was kind of
surprised by it.
He said, the hope for our futureis technology.
(24:02):
And I found myself thinking,well, yeah, there are a lot of
things that are going to be goodbecause of technology, but it is
not our hope for the future.
It is, it comes back to whatwe've just been talking about,
is like rooting our identity insomething beyond the natural
world.
That's it.
And that when we have it inChrist, we find meaning,
purpose, a reason for living,and um it it gives us something
(24:26):
sure to stand on, right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
That's it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
So good.
And and it's and it's like itsounds obvious like you were
saying, but it isn't.
I mean, it's like we need thatreminder because there's a lot
of things shifting, and when alot of things are shifting, you
gotta find a place to put youryour feet that are steady and
stable.
SPEAKER_02 (24:43):
But but uh you're actually connecting a couple of
dots for me in what you'resaying, because we have this,
you know, what does it mean?
Definition of humanity is thefirst shift.
The second shift is digitalexistence, right?
So how we're uh seeing a secondgeneration of digital natives.
So there's a generation growingup, which will be the first
(25:04):
generation in human historywhose parents would know more
about technology than them,right?
So so it's no longer parentsasking kids to help them with
technology, it's now those kidsthat's grown up and they're
they're educating their kids.
So they're not just havingdigital natives as kids, they're
(25:24):
digital natives as parents.
So it's a second generationdigital native.
So you have thishyper-digitization, but then in
this space, what's happening isis actually we're getting
curated information, soindividually curated
information.
When I open my news app, whenyou open your news app, we're
getting two different websites.
(25:45):
Yes, that's right.
Right?
So your social media feed, mysocial media feed, it's
algorithm identified to me.
Uh previous generation, thebiggest challenge in the family
was to get them all away fromwatching the same thing in front
of the television to sittingaround a table having a
conversation.
This generation wish they wouldall watch the same thing.
(26:05):
They're all on their owndevices, right?
So what has happened is we'velost even these common spaces of
engagement.
And so now that's the humanexperience changing.
Now the way the world organizeshas changed.
So now we've seen this inversebell curve where uh seeing that
watching the same news, watchingthe same movies, watching the
same television has created abell curve where the bulk of
(26:28):
humanity is in the center andthe few of humanity is on the
edges, right?
So so the people on the there'sextremes, but most people are in
the center of any issue.
The problem is that bell curvehas swapped upside down, right?
So humanity was unifying,European Union, uh, United
Nations, come together, cometogether, come together.
(26:49):
Since Brexit, we've seen theopposite, right?
So this protest case in point.
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
So technology has caused a society when the
minimum is in the middle andmost people are on the edges.
Because why?
Everybody's getting curated,everything around their
preferences, around their likes,which reinforces whatever bent
they have, it reinforces themand it pushes society aside.
Yeah.
So these shifts are one on theother.
(27:15):
Yeah.
And they're actually in thatstory you're telling, they all
come together.
SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So wow.
Um, so when you when you thinkabout your work right now and
you know, providing leadershipto this whole conversation, um,
what what do you see as yourprimary role?
What it what are you trying tolike?
It sounds to me like part ofwhat you're doing is
vocabularizing it, like givingpeople words to describe what
(27:41):
they're like feeling and seeing.
But is there another role thatyou kind of see yourself filling
out?
SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Yeah, I think I I think we're um there's some
people that are great firstthought leaders, and I really
admire them.
Uh, they're visionaries, theyhave these ideas and people
follow them.
I'm not one of them.
Uh, I'm a second thought leader.
So so I find myself in thecurator space um even more than
I find myself in the creatorspace.
(28:11):
So, you know, the you mentionedkind of vocabularizing things,
but I think it's the best bookswe've re read are not the ones
that tell us something new.
Uh it's the ones that give us anarrative for what we already
knew.
Yeah.
Right.
So it gives us words becausebecause words are uh if you've
ever tried to deal with waterwithout a container, it's very
(28:32):
hard to do anything with it.
Yeah.
But but containers make waterusable.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And words makes life palatable,right?
We can manage it, we can dosomething with it.
So I think that's a big part ofwhat I see God using me for, but
but mostly I'm just afacilitator and a connector and
and you know, being able to touh facilitate the leadership
(28:55):
that God has placed in othersfor me is the is the the
greatest joy in leadershipmyself.
Um so I obviously lovecommunicating and and doing
these things, but uh, but Ireally see that as uh a key part
of my role is is who are thepeople that the world needs to
hear right now and how can Ibuild a platform for them um and
(29:17):
set them up?
Great, I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
All right, can I can I go on a little more personal
journey with you?
SPEAKER_02 (29:24):
Um so I mean yeah, I I I can't leave even if I try
to.
SPEAKER_00 (29:29):
So, you know, I hear about all you're doing, and you
know, you see, so you do a lotof traveling, you you're
obviously very active atShoreline, you teach, um, you
have all kinds of leadershipresponsibilities there.
You have a family and teenagers,and I'm like, how the heck does
he hold it all together?
(29:50):
And it's not just like from aschedule perspective, but I you
know, we've had otherconversations and I've watched
how you lead, and and and Iguess.
The sense that you want to bethe kind of person that is
leading out of the overflow.
Like I don't want to just kindof talk about things I've
learned or known.
I want my ministry to come froma full place where I've been
(30:14):
connecting to God, God's beeninvesting in me.
And I know for myself, I've I'vehad seasons of my life that look
a lot like what yours lookslike.
And sad to say that one of thethings that kind of came was
part of the cost of that wasthat I was not as attentive to
(30:34):
that personal uh development,that personal connection to God.
And I started paying a price forthat with my family and my own
work with uh with people, even.
And and I found myself, youknow, talking about things that
I knew other people should bedoing, but that I wasn't
necessarily doing myself.
And I I'm just curious howyou've been able and are you
(30:56):
able to balance all of thattogether?
SPEAKER_02 (31:00):
Yeah, a couple thoughts.
I think the the short answer,how have I been doing is poorly.
Um, you know, because I thinkthere's a lot of room for
improvement.
Um, and there always is, right?
Is as we we we we the we've gotto ruthlessly eliminate hurry
from our lives, but it's it'shard, it's tough.
Um I don't really believe inbalance, and maybe that if I had
(31:24):
a key, that would be it.
Um because I I don't see manybalanced figures in the Bible.
I don't think Jesus was strivingfor balance.
He he was so tired he couldn'tkeep his eyes open, he was
totally given to things, um, buthe wasn't hurried and he wasn't
(31:45):
stressed and he was doing itright.
I mean, look at biblicalfigures, you know.
But who in the Bible lived asuper balanced life?
It's tough to find one, right?
Because the reality is uh Idon't think it's about balance,
I think it's about priority.
And for me, that is probably thenumber one key is success is
(32:05):
obedience, and God is mypriority, and obedience to God
is my priority.
Um, and sometimes being obedientto God means that I uh need to
be absent from my family to bepresent to something God is
giving me to do.
Um, but sometimes obediencemeans saying no to the greatest
opportunity ever to be presentwith my family.
(32:26):
So it's not trying to balance,but it's trying to give priority
to what God wants to do, not tomy own ambition, not to
opportunity.
Um, and I think I think that'sone of the keys.
And then if it's priority andnot balance, then you're able to
compartmentalize and truly bepresent.
Yeah.
So what I've learned is um it'smore damaging for family life
(32:49):
for me to be everywhere all thetime than for me to be not
present and then truly present.
Yeah, yeah.
It's more dangerous for me to besomewhat present.
Um so so I've really justprioritized that over the years.
And you know, Karen, my wife, isa superstar, and you've had a
her year, so I'm definitely thejunior varsity team.
(33:12):
But but but the the reality isjust, you know, she's helped
over the years, and and andwe've had rhythms like like
dinner time, right?
So I'd be in different timezones, but but even you know,
before video calling was athing, is we'd have dinner
around the family table, and Iwould just whatever time zone
I'm in, I'll I'll try andprioritize that moment.
So when the kids were small,dinner time, I'd be around the
(33:35):
table on a video call with themif I was traveling.
Yeah.
So there was that stability ofthat moment of engagement and
conversation, and they didn'thave to, you know, have an
awkward conversation with me.
They could just have the normaldinner conversation that we'd
always have around the table.
Dad was just present on videosometimes and not in person.
Um and then I think the otherthing is just strategic neglect.
(33:58):
We um we've got to get better atneglecting some things that
aren't helpful.
Uh, the reality is every one ofus are given a certain amount of
hours on this earth, and everymoment we spend on something is
a moment that we've spent.
So we're attaching a price tagto our lives as we live.
(34:21):
Um, and I think that's beencontinuously sobering to me is
to ask that question is is thistruly worth my time?
Is this truly worth myinvestment?
So um, you know, the family lifething has just been
intentionality.
I mean, I I when I travel, I'llI'll take the VR headset along.
I've got teenage boys, so um,you know, to try and call them
(34:42):
or text them, it's like, how'syour day?
Good.
You know?
Why?
Because, you know, it's likeit's impossible.
But if I put on the VR and we'replaying table tennis while I'm
in another state, um they openup because we're doing something
together.
So so it's it's it has beenbeing creative about it, being
(35:05):
creative about time with Karinwhere we would just have certain
rhythms in place.
And then just, you know, thatanchoring, overflow, time with
God is I the travel seemsglamorous.
Anybody that hasn't done itthinks it's it this amazing
glamorous life.
Um I I do about a a hundredflights a year, so that's kind
(35:25):
of what I've averaged the lastthree or four years, and and um
it's brutal because you lose allsense of rhythm, you lose all
sense of kind of this is normal,you you've got to but I've I've
learned that something like timewith God, if if first thing you
do is spend time with God, andthat's your rhythm in the day,
it just keep those coreanchoring rhythms, right?
(35:50):
So so often that is on a planewhere I've just woken up, but
I'm woken up on a plane, andrather than going, okay, what
movie am I gonna watch?
I'm just going, no, this is myquiet time with God.
Doesn't matter where I am, whatI'm doing.
So I think those things havebeen dying, but all these things
that I've just said uh doesn'tmean I'm doing it well.
It just means I really want todo it better.
(36:10):
Um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Uh one of the things that you said that I I've been
kind of reflecting a little biton myself.
I I saw a post and I kind ofreflected on it in in a post
myself, but the the new life youwant is gonna cost you the old
life you're used to.
And and and you know, it's it'slike a little cliche thing, but
(36:32):
it's it is so true, you know,that there are things that God
is gonna keep calling us to.
And as a result of that, we'regonna have to let go of some
things that have becomefamiliar, that are comfortable,
but are no longer strategic.
And so being willing to say,okay, uh, like you were talking
(36:53):
about, evaluating thosepriorities and saying, okay, is
this really still something Ineed to be giving myself to?
Or is it one of the things thathas to fall by the wayside in
order to stay faithful to myquiet time, to my family, and to
the new priorities that God hasplaced on me?
Um so that, yeah, I appreciatethe affirmation because I think
that's so true.
SPEAKER_02 (37:14):
And and and it's uh when we uh success is far more
dangerous than failure.
Because failure causes us to trysomething else.
Success causes us to do what wedid.
And I think sometimes we'restuck in rhythms because it
worked in the past.
And success tests us in waysfailure failure never will.
(37:36):
So true.
Right.
So we've gotta we've gottachallenge past success and force
ourselves to say just because itworked doesn't mean it's gonna
work.
Uh it's easy when we fail to tryin a better way, right?
Because we've got I've got to dosomething different.
But it's when we succeed that wereally struggle.
And you asked me earlier aboutkind of shifting to the US.
(38:00):
Is I I I think if you if youlook at at one of the vices of
the US culture, it's this uhassumption of success, this
assumption of comfort, thisassumption of living within your
comfort zone.
Um that we're okay, the world'sokay, everything's gonna be okay
(38:20):
because everything around me isokay.
But the reality is it it isn'tthe case everywhere, and it's
not necessarily gonna be thecase just because it's been the
case.
Yeah.
And so it's one of the one ofthe key things.
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (38:36):
All right, I want to give you the last word.
Is there something else that'suh kind of on your heart in
light of all the things we'vetalked about that you want to
share before we close out?
SPEAKER_02 (38:45):
Just uh a privilege to be here.
Thank you, uh Pete, for havingthese conversations.
I think um you know, pe peoplethere's this part in in Psalm 23
where it says uh he makes me liedown in green pastures, right?
Um he makes me lie down by stillwaters and green pastures.
(39:08):
But what we forget is the hemakes us.
And I I really think you have aunique ability to make people
pause and reflect.
And um, yeah, I'm justencouraged by what you're doing.
So thank you for making peopletake a moment to lie down.
Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (39:27):
Well, I appreciate it.
And again, in light of yourschedule, I'm grateful you made
the time for this.
And so thank you for being here.
And thank you for joining us foruh this sidewalk conversation
where we had an opportunity tokind of walk alongside Yuri in
the adventure of his life.
We will be noting his new bookin the notes and encourage you
to pick it up.
(39:47):
I think that he shared enough tokind of pique our curiosity, and
I think we might be uh helped byit, especially in the fast paced
life that we're living.
So thank you for joining us, andthen join us next week when we
have another sidewalkconversation.
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