Mike Orenstein shares his journey from military kid to recovery ministry leader, revealing how his unique background prepared him to connect with people across different backgrounds and help them find healing. His candid discussion of personal struggles with addiction and family crisis demonstrates how vulnerability becomes strength when used to help others overcome similar challenges.
• Early life as a military child provided unique perspective on being an outsider and adapting to different cultures
• Ability to connect with diverse groups of people became foundation for ministry work
• Open discussion about overcoming pornography addiction and the importance of accountability
• Breaking the silence around addiction: "You're only as sick as your secrets"
• How the church community rallied when his son was incarcerated
• Navigating marriage during family crisis and being there for each other
• Perspectives on the church's strengths in ministry and challenges with structure
• Personal mission to "heal the brokenhearted and proclaim liberty for captives"
• Passing down protective nature and service mindset to his children
• The essential role of authentic community before crisis strikes
If you're looking to buy or sell a home in the Austin area or Lake LBJ properties, contact our sponsor Carol Van Waarde for skilled and personable real estate service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waarde (00:01):
All right, he's all set, all right.
Give me a little bit more audio, just to Okay, all right Me.
Yeah, you talk to me, do I?
Mike Orenstein (00:10):
want to sing a song?
Do we have a black sheet song?
That's what you need.
Piet Van Waarde (00:14):
A black sheet song or a jingle.
We do have a black sheet.
Oh, yeah, well, that's.
Have you any Whoa?
Yeah, no, yeah, I don't know wehave a.
We have a little intro piecethat we do.
I probably heard it a thousandtimes at the house because
jennifer probably played it overand over and I just didn't
realize that was your thing.
Yeah, I'll pay.
Actually, joel wrote it for me,did he?
Mike Orenstein (00:32):
yeah loved it.
I need to call him.
Actually he's been.
He's all over my tiktok now, sooh is he.
Piet Van Waarde (00:38):
Yeah, I'm doing that?
Mike Orenstein (00:38):
yeah, like heavy raising money doing all of his
stuff.
So that's the only social mediaI actually go on, except for
like to specifically go readsomething that you wrote.
I only go onto Facebook forliterally that thing, because
it's a little too much for my.
I get sucked in so easy.
Piet Van Waarde (01:05):
Well, thank you for joining us for another
episode of SidewalkConversations.
I am thrilled to have my guestwith me.
He's not just an interestingperson, he's also a very close
personal friend, and so I amexcited about introducing him to
you in a moment.
But before I do, I wanted tosay thank you to our sponsor,
and our sponsor today happens tobe my wife, carol Van Ward.
(01:27):
She is a realtor and she worksin the Austin area, but she also
represents Lake Properties onLake LBJ, and she's not only a
very skilled person, but she'ssomebody you'll love working
with.
So if you are looking to buy ahome or sell a home, give Carol
Van Water a call and we'll puther number in the notes.
(01:49):
All right, I want to thank you,mike, for joining us.
This is Mike Orenstein, a goodfriend of mine.
Thank you for being here.
Mike Orenstein (01:57):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
Piet Van Waarde (01:59):
Good yeah, we've been talking about this
for a while.
I think we've tried to do thisa couple times we have.
Mike Orenstein (02:04):
I may or may not have canceled a couple times.
Traveling guy yes, but hey,we're here now, yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (02:11):
Good, good, well, thank you.
So I have a little pattern thatI tend to do with my guests and
that is I like to start kind ofearly on in their journey, like
where they were born, raisedkind of some early influences.
So tell us a little bit of howyour story started.
Mike Orenstein (02:28):
Yeah, so my story is I mean, it's not unique
, a lot of people have it, butmost of my friends don't have
kind of the same journey.
I was, my dad was military Realquick my parents got divorced.
My stepdad was military, so Iwas born in California, but real
quickly we traveled to Japanand Alabama and all over the
United States, and so the travelwas interesting.
I'm not sure that I think whenI started having kids I realized
(02:49):
I wanted them to be in a morestable environment for, like
friends wise.
But I will say it gave me somereally cool experiences that I
didn't get.
You know, in Alabama I was oneof two white males in my school,
which gives you a view insidethe world that most people don't
get to have on being a genuineminority.
So I got to some cool things.
In Japan, I got to meet somefamily friends of mine that
(03:10):
still live in Houston that aremy closest friends, and so I've
known them my whole life.
Piet Van Waarde (03:14):
So I've had some good experiences.
You stay in touch with thoseguys.
Mike Orenstein (03:17):
Yeah, actually, I'll talk more about that in one
of your later questions.
But yeah, I'm actually going togo out and see them.
Unfortunately, one of themactually has stage four cancer
and we just found out two weeksago.
So we're going to go see Chrisand he's in Houston now, so then
we'll go across and see herright after, as soon as I get
back from my trip.
So, yeah, yes, they're goodfriends of mine, their daughter
and I.
We all lived together years agowhen my family was struggling.
(03:37):
So it's a very interestingstory and story and it all
stemmed from us traveling aroundthe world in the military.
So, wow, cool, yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (03:45):
So what were?
You already mentioned kind of alittle bit about it, how that's
kind of giving you anappreciation for longtime
friends and you tried to providethat for your own kids.
But what are some of the otherthings that you drew out of your
growing up experience that youcan see as a thread in your life
, right?
Mike Orenstein (04:01):
now.
It's so funny because I canactually answer that question
better today.
We just traveled to Europe.
We went with our, our wholefamily went right Well, me and
the two boys that are available.
But Gabe is kind of a worldtraveler, like he goes to Europe
five or six or seven times ayear, oh wow.
But being there, one of thethings he's super conscientious
of is not being the Americantourist which I have a little
(04:22):
different view of.
But you know what I mean, Peopleknow what you say.
So he was kind of talkingthrough that as we were there a
lot.
But I realized that, havingdone as much as I've done in the
military with my parents andstuff, I kind of already had
that in my head, like beingrespectful of where you are In
Japan.
I was truly an outsider thereand so you want to learn their
culture and be a part of theirworld, and so I kind of already
had that built into me there.
(04:42):
And not that there weren'tthings I had to learn and some
nuances to how that works, but Ialready kind of had in my head
of, you know, being new guy orthe different guy there, and so
it really wasn't a hugechallenge for me to be, you know
, more culturally sensitive aswe were there and be realizing
that I'm on their, I'm in theirworld, they're on mine.
But I do think a lot of thatearly experiences kind of gave
me a good background so itwasn't as challenging as I've
(05:04):
seen some other people strugglewith when they go to Europe.
Piet Van Waarde (05:07):
And so you feel like that's like a common
thread for like some things inyour life where you've always
because I've noticed this aboutyou You're kind of one of those
guys who can fit in a variety ofenvironments because you're
just genuinely yourself and youtend to accept people as they
are.
So is that something you feellike you've drawn out of your
life experience For?
Mike Orenstein (05:28):
sure, when I was in high school it was so
interesting, and I have friendstoday from high school that
still ask me about this.
But I kid you not, I wasfriends with the jocks, with the
nerds.
I was in school in the 80s, sowe were all labeled right.
Piet Van Waarde (05:38):
Everybody had a label.
Mike Orenstein (05:39):
But I was genuinely friends with every
single group of people.
I was in sports but I was alsosmart.
But you're right, I just havethis I don't tend to be drawn
towards a single type of thing.
I really do like variety and myfriends, and so I literally had
friends in every group ofpeople, even from poor to rich
to whatever it didn't.
That didn't matter to me asmuch as who they were as a
person and so, and thatdeveloped even.
(05:59):
I wasn't even that healthy of ahigh school student.
I had issues there, but that Iwasn't even that healthy of a
high school student, I hadissues there.
But that has followed me allthe way through my life.
Jennifer and I have bothnoticed that we're kind of
peacekeepers amongst the groupsof peoples because we're in both
groups or whatever.
The groups are right and even atchurch we find that a lot,
where we tend to be peacemakersbetween two different groups of
people, and so it's sometimes astruggle, but I really like it
(06:20):
because, I don't know, it justhas made me a more well-rounded
person who's also taught methings that have helped me in
ministry.
Work right In ministry.
You're going to work with everykind of person.
Piet Van Waarde (06:29):
Yeah, Well, that's a great lead-in to the
next question I wanted to askyou about.
So you're very active in therecovery ministry at our church
and part of that, I would guess,is a product of the fact that
you're very nonjudgmental.
You kind of move into anynumber of circles and feel
comfortable and they feelcomfortable with you.
But tell me a little bit aboutwhat stimulated your interest in
(06:50):
recovery.
Mike Orenstein (06:52):
Yeah, in general my parents weren't really great
at the concept of being aroundfor other people, but somewhere
along my journey I just had, youknow, being in different groups
in school.
People would come to me andjust ask me questions and say,
how do you do this, how do youdo that?
So as I became a Christian inmy early 20s, I just kind of
already had this view of youknow how to kind of be there for
(07:12):
other people.
And then when I first got intoministry, the church I went to
was really good.
They had, I mean, hundreds ofdifferent ministries and I just
saw the church really beingactive in the world.
World and I'm like I want to bea part of this.
Jennifer and I got mixed uppretty quick in marriage
ministry, premarital ministry,those kinds of things, all kinds
of things.
But I kind of always realizedthat I had that kind of inside
me already.
The church has kind of helpedme put a formation around that
(07:33):
right, a place that already hasa structure involved, because my
strength is not doing it fromthe ground up.
My strength is coming intosomething that maybe has a
little structure and I can kindof make it my own or build it up
and so.
So we've certainly done thatwith the recovery work, yeah, so
recovery is interesting becausea chunk down our journey of
doing other ministry, jenniferand I both realized, especially
as chris went off toincarceration, that we both had
(07:54):
our own issues.
So recovery kind of came as aside effect of already being in
ministry and then realizing thatwe had struggles and that not
only do we need to work on ourown struggles but but through
our working on our own struggleswe can help others go through
that journey.
Right, We've been there, We'vedone that, we know it.
It doesn't mean you're done oryou're perfect, but and you're
right, the biggest key is iswhen somebody comes to me, I
don't have any top frontjudgment.
(08:16):
I do the newcomers 101, whichis anybody that's new.
I tell them you say you're alsonot going to catch me judging
you or saying anything.
Most likely I've made the samemistake as you and probably more
, to be honest, because I was achampion in that area and that's
not a good thing, but it reallydoes help to know that and to
have that inside of you.
So yeah, our own recoveryjourneys have helped us be
(08:37):
better leaders and pastors ofrecovery at the church.
Piet Van Waarde (08:40):
Well, and I think that's what makes for a
good recovery leader, right?
If you're trying to like, ifyou come from a perspective like
I got this figured out and ifyou come to me I will give you
the right answers, that's justnot going to work.
But if you say, like I'm afellow struggler, I'm working
through my crap and I'm going todo my best to do, you know the
work I need to do, but hey,let's walk together.
(09:03):
I think that's at the heart ofrecovery, right?
Mike Orenstein (09:04):
When I very first started working with the
recovery program Sober Recoveryat Shoreline.
One of the things that was oneof my biggest struggles was
that's what was happening alittle bit.
They were just bringing peoplefrom other ministries to help
fill leadership positions and Iwas the first person to come in
and be like we can't do this.
It doesn't fit well becauseyou're right, when we first
stand up and speak atSelf-Recovery, we say our thing,
we say I am a beloved believerin Jesus Christ, our Lord and
(09:26):
Savior.
I struggle with this and myname is this.
Your identity and your struggleare two different things.
But having a background andunderstanding of it and working
through it yourself is reallythe only Authenticity, is a
critical part of recovery.
There's no way around it.
You cannot fake it.
You cannot be there forsomebody if you just have
literally no concept orbackground of it.
You can be empathetic and youcan be in their corner, but to
really do the journey you havegot to have gone through some of
(09:48):
it yourself, absolutely.
Piet Van Waarde (09:50):
All right.
So that leads me to a moresensitive question.
Your own journey has included achallenge with pornography,
which, in our day, just seems tobe so prolific and it's so
pervasive.
One click away and you can seewhatever you want to see.
And so I have two questions onthat.
One is like, and like I'venoticed that there are some
(10:12):
things you can talk about andthere's like literally very
little shame factor.
Like you can say, I'vestruggled with drugs, I've
struggled with drinking, I'vestruggled with you know.
You can even say I've hadsuicidal thoughts, I wanted to
kill somebody, and there seemsto be more grace for that kind
of struggle than if you say, man, I've been addicted to porn.
It's just like, at a wholenother level.
(10:34):
So the first question is whatgave you the courage to come up
with the willingness, I guess,to say hey, yeah, no, this is my
struggle.
Mike Orenstein (10:46):
You know you made a great point because you
are not wrong.
So I was introduced to I wouldjust call it pornography In my
day.
It was a little bit uniquebecause it wasn't quite the
ability that we have today.
Right, you're talking likemagazines, but I was introduced
to things at a too young of agefor my body to understand it and
that's kind of what set me offin that journey.
It wasn't like a traumaticevent.
There were some things in mypast that you know were
(11:21):
traumatic events, but just theintroduction is something.
I felt like the whole room wentsilent that first day we had
done a special event.
There was like 300 people inthe chapel and I kid you not.
Now, to be honest with you, Idon't actually know what
happened because I feel like Imight have blanked out it was so
weird, but having stood up infront of people for the first
time, saying it publicly, reallywas profound.
But you know, the craziest partAfter the fact was not judgment,
(11:43):
was not any of the things thatyou have in your head.
I had a line of men and women,and so you know, subway Recovery
I won't counsel women and we domen on men, so I had to, you
know, give them to somebody else.
But I had a lot of peoplewaiting to ask me questions
because no one had, even at CR,nobody had said that yet and
that's the R, and so I was kindof surprised.
But also it opened the door tonow, where you know, yes, it was
(12:03):
uncomfortable at first, but nowI love the fact that I've been
free of it for more than 10years and I can help people in
that journey.
Because you kind of touched ontwo things Also most people
don't realize that drugs andalcohol.
I think it's pretty obviousthat it's an addiction, right?
I don't think anybody struggleswith saying that.
A lot of people don't believethat pornography is an addiction
.
But, in your brain.
It works exactly like cocaineit rewires your brain and the
(12:25):
only way to stop doing it is tounwire the negative wiring.
You know neurolinguisticprogramming.
It works exactly the same, butthe world as a whole doesn't
view that right.
Piet Van Waarde (12:35):
So was there something that finally said,
look, I got to do somethingabout this.
Mike Orenstein (12:41):
Yeah.
So this is an interesting.
It's a long, but in 2008, mydoctor said I was doing some
things I shouldn't be doing withdrugs and alcohol.
My doctor said stop doing it oryou're going to die.
I kid you not, but I did Coldturkey Like you know what.
Hey, I don't want to die.
I'm, you know, I'm not thatinto my stuff.
But what I didn't do was work onmy issues and the reason I was
(13:02):
using drugs was from trauma frommy past.
So I stopped drinking andsmoking.
But I started doing mypornography addiction ramped up
because, like I said, it's anaddiction like no others I
wasn't using.
Here.
I didn't have a comfort becauseI hadn't worked on my issues.
So I just picked up a whole newaddiction.
But that had huge effects on mymarriage, on my relationship, as
I started having kids and theystarted getting older.
I did not want my kids tofollow in my footpath.
So at one point in time, really, when we started getting into
(13:24):
CR, I was like I don't want thisin my life anymore.
I want freedom from this, and Ijust made the decision through
the help of Jesus Christ, thankthe Lord.
I know the Lord because therewas no way around that, but it
was just a day where I'm like Ican't do this and the concept of
you're only as sick as yoursecrets is 1000% true.
Once it was on the table andout there, people asked me I
will be at the Rudy's barbecueplace and somebody hey, mike, it
(13:46):
was good to see you at churchand they'll ask me a question
and they'll say the word porn atRudy's barbecue.
Piet Van Waarde (13:51):
Do I love that?
I do not, but I'm comfortablenow, to be like hey, you know,
let's go over here and maybetalk over here a little bit, but
I don't have that shame factorybecause you know I'm not saying
I've conquered it with thesense of your mind is always
going to be a battle until we'rein heaven.
Mike Orenstein (14:05):
That's my belief system.
But I've conquered it with thefact that I don't act out like I
did and I have a really goodcomfort level with talking about
it and being open and callingmy sponsors and letting people
into my life to help me stay onthis journey forever.
But eventually you just get tothat place that you are like I
have got to get this out of me.
It's causing damage in theareas I don't want damage.
I love marriage ministry.
We've kind of always been apart of it and our marriage was
(14:27):
falling apart due to my ownissues, right.
So I have to make changes there.
If I'm going to help others,I've got to fix my own marriage
right.
Fix your own house first.
Piet Van Waarde (14:35):
So when you talk about it like an addiction
and you're dealing with it, doyou find yourself saying okay, a
lot of the principles like the12 steps and so on are
applicable in this area as wellas in other.
Quote unquote more typicaladdictions 100%.
Mike Orenstein (14:51):
I mean really step one.
Denial is the critical part.
Once you realize even if you'renot convinced it's a quote
addiction, just knowing that youhave a situation that's causing
you to be a way that you don'twant to be, or it's having
impact in your life, that's ahuge step.
Usually, once you can get overthat hump, you can be like okay,
I admit, I have an issue andyou're almost always willing to
(15:15):
then take the steps to get ridof it.
But yeah, the root of why youdo that the average person
doesn't take up drinking orsmoking or pornography for
absolutely no reason.
That's not usually the case.
Usually there was some trauma,they were abused as a child or
whatever.
So you kind of try to backtrackand say, okay, how did you even
get on the path of addiction,whatever?
Piet Van Waarde (15:32):
your addiction is, and those roots are always
the same.
It's obviously meeting.
Mike Orenstein (15:34):
some need Absolutely.
Trying to fill a hole ofsomething Exactly, and that's
the goal is to backtrack and seewhere along the way did
something happen or where didthat hole come in.
Sometimes, I think it's evenjust having walked away from
Jesus.
You start filling with thingsthat aren't God because you've
walked away from having him inthat place.
So yeah, the steps to break theaddiction are very similar, but
I will tell you in myexperience, I feel like it's
(15:54):
harder because, like you said,you can be in your bedroom by
yourself.
I travel a ton right, and Ihave massive accountability when
I travel.
My computer's locked down.
I have a government computer,so it's literally locked down,
but I am also on the phone withmy sponsors and my people all
the time, because it's somethingthat you literally have no
accountability.
If you're not willing to takecare of it yourself, you're
going to do it, and so youreally have to put some steps in
(16:16):
place.
So the outcome is a little morechallenging to get to, but the
steps to get there are exactlythe same.
Piet Van Waarde (16:22):
So now let's say there's somebody listening
to you talk about this and theysay, man, this guy's talking
about the stuff that I'm dealingwith right now, which I'm sure
you have people talk to you allthe time about that Almost every
day yeah.
So what is it that you typicallysay on the front end of it?
To say here's one, two, threewhat you need to do.
(16:44):
You're like I know you don'twant to be in this place, You're
tired of it, you feel guilt,you feel shame.
What are the three first thingsyou tell people?
Mike Orenstein (16:52):
Yeah.
So that's a great question.
It kind of comes in two prongsbecause Celebrate Recovery
itself as a ministry actuallygears the newcomer knight to
someone who doesn't even believein Jesus Christ.
So a lot of times, if it'ssomeone who I'm not sure
believes in Jesus, I will startthe conversation with just kind
of talk to it a little bit.
Hey, walk me through what it isyou think you have going on.
Give me a little more of yourstory and your history, right,
just to get them to open up atiny bit about it, because most
(17:12):
likely they've never talkedabout it in their whole lives.
So first step is just kind ofget some freedom there.
On the other side of it is, ifyou do believe in Jesus, one of
the first things we do is talkyou through.
Hey, let's talk about yourrelationship with Jesus and have
you prayed about this?
Have you done any of the thingsthat you might know to do in
this area?
Those kind of work out in twovery different once you've done
the first six lessons, weactually walk people through
(17:33):
accepting Jesus Christ, becauseI firmly believe that ultimately
on this earth to really conqueryour situations, you need Jesus
in your heart.
I just don't see an easyworldly view.
Most of my leaders will tell youthey white-knuckled it for 10
years and they've accepted JesusChrist and not that it isn't
hard, but you then have this newfoundation, you have this new
hope in this person that canwalk you through this and be
(17:54):
there for you.
So it kind of depends on whichdirection they're coming from
for me and how I will approachthat.
Piet Van Waarde (17:59):
Man.
That's a great word.
And there's all thesescriptures, obviously, that talk
about the Spirit of God thatlives within us.
So it's not just like I'madhering to a new set of beliefs
.
I'm actually receivingsomething I could never have on
my own, and that is the personof Christ.
Yeah, I agree, and when thatspirit is living in you, you
(18:22):
have an access to power that youcould never generate on your
own.
Mike Orenstein (18:27):
Yeah, you know that's so profound, because I
found myself the last few weekswith my travel schedule getting
kind of off in my own anxietyand even getting myself feeling
like it.
And so I'll step back and mylife coach will ask me hey, so
what have you done differentlyor what aren't you doing?
The first thing is almostalways my morning Bible study.
It doesn't have to be morning,right, I just tend to do it in
the morning.
But when I don't do the thingsI know I need to do to connect
(18:48):
with God early in the day, ithas 100% impact.
And if I go more than one day,that impact is greater and
greater.
So you're right.
And then remembering, like yousaid, that this isn't a nebulous
book.
This is the power that has comeinto us with the Holy Spirit
and knowing that he absolutelycan fix something that you
probably have no control over.
I don't know how people live onthis earth without that,
because I look at that as myhope, and the world is a
(19:11):
challenging place and withouthaving that, hope.
I don't know what my outlookwould be without Jesus in my
heart.
It really is a big deal to meand to my family as a whole.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (19:22):
Now that leads me into another area of life
that has been a bit of achallenge for you.
You have three great kids, andyet you've had challenges, like
every parent does, including oneof your kids being incarcerated
.
And I'm just curious, you know,I've heard it said this way
you're only as happy as yoursaddest kid, and so when you are
(19:45):
dealing with something that is,as you know, as difficult as
watching one of your kids gointo prison, it's at another
level right, and so, thankfully,we just got news that he's soon
on his way out and I'm gratefulfor that, but talk a little bit
(20:05):
about how you navigated thatsituation for you and Jennifer,
and maybe even how the Lordhelped you work through some of
that challenge.
Mike Orenstein (20:14):
Yeah, it's interesting.
You should say it because notonly is it hard to talk about
pornography, but the accusationagainst my son is in a related
area, and so you won't seepeople even tell people what
their kid's in there for.
Now we know his story, we knowthat he didn't actually do what
he was in there for, but theaverage person on the street
that sees it or reads this thingin there doesn't believe that
or doesn't understand that.
Right, but it's so funnybecause it's not funny.
(20:36):
It's interesting.
But this is just statistics, Ithink is important.
80% of people that go throughthis type of trauma get divorced
, and the reason they getdivorced is not what you would
think.
A lot of times it's their owninternal struggle.
They're like this was my fault,I'm responsible, or they blame
their spouse.
Hey, you're the one you knowlike you had been Right If you
(20:56):
had been addicted to pornography, even though my son didn't even
commit this.
Those are things that stillhappen in a relationship because
you're dealing with such a highlevel of trauma, but also just
even the dealing with it andgoing through it and having the
ability.
When I first started postingabout it on Facebook, I was on
Facebook back then, like I said,I need prayers for this and I
wasn't getting specific.
But Jennifer was like, hey, Idon't know if I really want this
out there, but I was like Iwant as much prayer as I can get
(21:18):
around us immediately and thatat the time was the best way to
get out the news right.
But we both made a commitmentearly on to work on ourselves.
My wife had her first battle ofanxiety ever and we got help
right away.
Pastor Cheryl and Kelly and thechurch went around us like I've
never seen before, like thechurch you talked about how we
got through it.
The very day it happened I wasstanding outside the jail.
(21:39):
Pastor Cheryl and I had barelymet.
We knew her a little bit, butonly a couple of years into
being here and she called me outof the blue.
She had never, ever called meand she called me and she's like
hey, I felt led by the Lord tocall you right now.
Oh wow, I burst into tears.
I'm standing on the littleparking strip at the prison.
They won't let me in because myson's not a minor.
My son was an adult when hewent to jail, so they wouldn't
let me in to see him or anything.
(22:00):
So I'm standing literally inthe parking lot at the prison,
crying my eyes out, and PastorCheryl calls out of the blue and
she's like hey, god told me tocall you.
What do you need?
And I I don't have a doggoneclue what I need to be honest
with you.
But all she said to me was getyour people head to Otto and
Sandy's house.
We were already in their smallgroup at that time and I will
have every pastor there thatneeds to be there.
(22:21):
Sure enough, we went over toOtto and Sandy's just on
autopilot.
Luckily the prison was inPflugerville, so it was close
and within a one-hour period,all't none of that.
But like, what do you need?
You know, my wife for anxietywas being spiked because she
stopped eating for a few days,because she had never
(22:41):
experienced anxiety.
So the first thing was hey, weneed to get some food in your
body, like the tangible stuffand having those friends around
us, like right away, was just sopowerful.
And then the Lord has seen fit,thankfully, to make it so early
on.
Jennifer spiked quickly and gotthat where I was able to stay.
Even though I had a panicattack in the parking lot I was
still able to kind of maintainmy composure.
(23:01):
So for the first few months Iwas being there for Jennifer and
making sure she had what sheneeded.
Then at some juncture she gotmore healthy and I dropped into
the deep end and I went off.
But then she was able to helpme right, because she also then
was coming out of hers a littlebit and had the power to help me
.
So at any given time one of uswas just healthy enough to walk
through it with the other person.
And I had already been in CR, soI already had a support system.
(23:22):
She went to CR that first night.
Kelly Mata was speaking thatnight.
She said, hey, I know you'renot in CR, but just come.
And Jennifer went and she'snever left because she found our
hearts.
And having people that neveronce questioned anything about
the situation, just said what doyou need, was profound and it
just kept us solid.
And then we both made theagreement that we were going to
make sure we worked on ourselvesand made sure that marriage and
(23:44):
our family stayed strong.
And I will confess that earlyon our marriage didn't struggle,
but we didn't realize the hitit was having on our remaining
children.
And so I, you know, confesssome parenting fails early on,
which we have since corrected.
And as chris is about to comehome, we're navigating how that
might look and try to be therebetter for our children, because
when you're in crisis yourself,you think you're there for
(24:05):
somebody else, but we reallyrealize we weren't but, again,
people from the church andpeople around us rallied up and
and stood up for our kids andfilled into these places that we
weren't able to fill in forbecause we just didn't have the
ability well, I think that saysa lot about you guys too, that
you, you had the kind ofcommunity already existing so
that when the call was made, allthese people kind of came
(24:26):
around.
Piet Van Waarde (24:27):
And that's what I always find myself saying to
others is, like you know, whenyou're going to have a crisis in
your life, it's going to tocome and, like you said, it's
going to be navigated with thework of the Holy Spirit in your
life, through the Lord.
But then there's that othercomponent, which is the tangible
expression of his love throughpeople, and if you don't have
those connections before thecrisis comes, you're not going
(24:50):
to have the energy of thewherewithal once the crisis hits
to try and establish yourcommunity.
It's it's like you got to makethis investment before you think
you need it.
That's good and uh, and I thinkyou know the fact that so many
people were willing to comearound as a testament to your
understanding of that.
Mike Orenstein (25:06):
I think that goes back to your first question
.
Right with that foundation inchurch in jesus christ and
having realized right away thateven our very first group at
church when we're young was apremarital group, that I was
evening with my brother andstepsister because we and
sister-in-law now right who werein denver, so we kind of built
that, we started that journeypretty early.
But you're right, we got herepretty quick.
Pastor cheryl, very first timeever.
Sorry.
I was like, hey, I need you tobe on the parking team and I
(25:28):
need you to sit in this rowbehind.
I was on the safety team.
I need you to watch pastorrobin laura's bro, here and I
was like cool, who are you?
Piet Van Waarde (25:34):
Maybe we could start with some introductions.
Mike Orenstein (25:36):
But she knew in her heart that I was there to
serve and that was the craziestthing.
I love that.
I'm not sure I had even seenthat yet, right, because I kid
you not, it was the first weekwe'd been in town.
But, people like her who hadthis real sensitivity to the
Spirit, knew right away and,like I said, she's still my life
coach, sam, and know we'restill friends with this entire
group of people that were there.
Nothing's changed.
We still meet with every singleone of them.
(25:57):
It's so interesting and they'reall as excited as I am for
Chris to finally come home,which again says something
they're truly invested in ourlives and I like that.
Piet Van Waarde (26:07):
So when we talk about the church because you've
been mentioning it a number oftimes you know I find myself and
I know we've had enoughconversations offline.
You have similar feelings, butthere are some really wonderful
things that you can see in thechurch, and then there's some
stuff that you're like I don'tget that.
Mike Orenstein (26:24):
That seems a little strange to me or that
doesn't make sense to me.
Piet Van Waarde (26:28):
So I'm, you know, as a ministry leader, as
somebody who's been active inthe church, you know I would
like you to kind of play outboth sides of that, like when
active in the church.
I would like you to kind ofplay out both sides of that.
When you look at the church inthe world today, what are some
of the things that make you sayyou know what, I'm so glad the
church exists.
And then we'll get to the otherside of here are things maybe
I'm concerned with.
Mike Orenstein (26:50):
Yeah, I think people don't really see what the
church does because I don'tthink they take the time to look
.
But even just speaking ofShoreline Church, like we
support orphanages all aroundthe world, we do things that
nobody else is willing to do.
In countries like Haiti that weboth know the government has no
infrastructure whatsoever, sothe only place doing anything
there is the church, and so Isee that the ministries like
Cyber Recovery only operates inchurches.
(27:12):
It doesn't exist anywhere else.
It's done inside the safe placeof a church.
So I think, ministry-wise, Ithink churches are doing a
really good job of hosting allthese things that God has called
us to do and, like Shorelinehappens to be a nice big
building right, so we get tohost.
I don't even know what we havenow.
We have a ton of small groupsbecause we were blessed with a
physical location.
That's amazing.
So I think that in that area,the church is really strong, and
(27:33):
I do also believe when you walkin the doors of a church, I
think we do a really good job ofthat early introduction in
grace and hey, welcome in.
We don't care where you're from.
Let's really talk through this.
Let's say what do you need.
What are you here for?
How can we help you?
I do think that most churches doa really good job at that first
line hey, what can we do foryou?
Powerful, and I have theblessing of being the leader of
(27:54):
all the churches in Austin forSub-Recovery, so I literally go
to like 30 different churches.
I don't attend them and I gothere to help them with their
ministries.
I know the pastors there, so Isee this play out in almost
every church.
There's this really good frontline of hey, no-transcript, but
(28:23):
it is not my area of expertiseand no disrespect, it's not my
favorite thing to do.
But having that in there andalready having a side, what are
some of the things that?
Piet Van Waarde (28:36):
you look at and you go.
Man, we got to figure that out,yeah.
Mike Orenstein (28:40):
You know, going back to my early history, I was
raised Jewish.
When I was younger which nodisrespect I love my Jewish
heritage, it's all over my bodyand tattoos but Jewish is very
strict and is based on youliving out these whatever 617
rules right.
Then, when my mom got remarriedto a Catholic, we had a whole
other, different set of rulesthat were based on how you acted
(29:01):
and were there right.
And I think the bottom line is,when man gets too involved with
structure of religion, we losethe point of what Jesus Christ
did for us on the cross.
And so I feel like and this isjust the honest truth I feel
like the Western church hadgotten so.
You know, I don't know what theright word is, but we've let
man make the rules over what Godwould be doing and we put God
(29:23):
in a box.
And I think when you start toput God in a box, you forget
that he is over everything andhas the power to do all things.
And so I think we just I thinkhumans have done things that we
shouldn't have, and the Westernchurch is really famous for that
.
And also there is a challengefor me in my life.
The mixing of money and churchis really a challenge.
You need the money to run thechurch.
(29:44):
I'm a full believer.
We're starting our ownnonprofit.
I already know right ahead.
You know you need to have that,but I also see where sometimes
that becomes the hyper-focus.
You can see on the news everytime all these people that are
falling and one of the thingsthey're doing is hiding money or
stealing money, and so I thinkthis concept of mixing God with
money becomes a challenge.
I think it can be done right.
We've seen some powerful placesuse it.
(30:04):
We may have ministries likethis one that do a really good
job, but I just think that we'veput so much overhead on the
church to make it almost like abusiness that we maybe have lost
focus on what we were called todo, which is just stone cold
ministry, right, yeah, yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (30:18):
And it's right because you feel like, okay,
well, if we want to get thisthing done, that's going to
require resources, and when youcan leverage resources, you can
do some pretty impressive things.
But then you know, any time Iremember when I was serving as a
senior leader in a church, youcould almost feel it any time
there was the conversation aboutthe offering.
(30:40):
You can feel it in the room.
Oh yeah, here we go again.
You know I'm asking for money,and then all you need is a few
reports in the news about peopleyou know, using it poorly or
benefiting themselves throughthe lavish lifestyles and all
that you kind of go.
see, you can't trust those guys.
(31:01):
So it is a dilemma and I prayregularly for our congregation,
but also for the church ingeneral, that we'll kind of sort
that out in ways that peoplewill understand the need and
that we will be responsible withthe gift.
Mike Orenstein (31:18):
I think we need to be careful too, because what
you said is the truth.
I think people gauge theirunderstanding of church and
religion based on the news, andthe news is really mostly only
going to report when the badthings happen.
Right, I don't want to guess,but there's a ton of churches in
the US doing really good workon minimal budgets and they're
really being there for people.
So, as a whole, I really thinkthere's a lot of good.
I just don't think that's whatyou see, because no one wants to
(31:39):
report on a church doing theright thing because that's not
newsworthy right For me and you.
it's newsworthy because it'spowerful for me, but it's just
not something.
So I think a lot of people thatget their concept of church,
that don't go to church and seenothing but the news, they're
just getting such a smallviewpoint and, yes, we're humans
.
So there's epic fails amongstall of us.
I have failed multiple times inmy life.
I will continue to fail untilI'm in heaven.
(32:01):
I already know that.
And I'm not that sad about itanymore because I have a good
infrastructure in place.
I'm excited about the future,so that's good.
Piet Van Waarde (32:09):
All right, so I'd like to ask a last question,
which is about your lifemission or vision, and you told
me beforehand you actually had avision statement written, so
I'd love for you to share that,yeah, and I'm going to read this
because, honestly, my wifewrote it and it's just much
better if I use her exact words.
Mike Orenstein (32:26):
And I will speak on twofold, because I also kind
of have a side one of my ownlife.
But our mission statement forour home is in this house, we
use the wisdom given to us byGod through his word and the
freedom and recovery gained bythe redemptive work of Christ on
the cross, to heal thebrokenhearted, proclaim liberty
for the captives and open theprison doors for those who are
bound.
Piet Van Waarde (32:46):
That sounds familiar.
There's like some mission ofJesus in there somewhere.
A little bit right, hopefullyright.
Mike Orenstein (32:52):
But my wife, as you know, is profoundly
faith-driven, where I'm a lotmore logical-driven, and so
she's able to do this.
But also, going all the wayback to my youth, I saw enough
things happen negative that I'vealways had a protective spirit.
I've always wanted to be therefor other people.
Even when I travel, I'm alwaystexting my wife, even just for
safety things.
But all three of my boys havethis profoundly protective
(33:13):
nature.
My son has his own securitybusiness, even as a side
business, and all my boys arethere.
So, also as kind of a sidemission thing, I want to make
sure that I'm keeping focus on.
We were put on this earth to bethere for other people in
whatever capacity it looks like.
And yes, for maybe us it's alittle more hyper-focused on and
protection isn't just physicalprotection, spiritual protection
and recovery protection, right,and all that stuff.
(33:40):
But God has seen fit to putthat in me and I've seen it even
develop in a much greatercapacity in my boys, like they
took the mantle and have gonewith it in profound ways, and so
I just love being able to seewhat God has done and being able
to, you know, to do more withit than I was able to do even
myself.
So perfect.
Piet Van Waarde (33:49):
Well, mike, thank you so much.
This has been a greatconversation.
I appreciate you being withtoday.
I know you're crazy busy andgetting ready to travel again,
so for you to take the time outreally means a lot.
Mike Orenstein (33:59):
So thank you.
Thank you for having me here.
I appreciate it, I love it.
Honestly, talking through thisstuff is always good.
It's always beneficial.
Piet Van Waarde (34:05):
so thank you, and thank you for joining us.
We invite you back.
All right, he's all set, all right.
Give me a little bit more audio, just to Okay, all right Me.
Yeah, you talk to me, do I?
Mike Orenstein (00:10):
want to sing a song?
Do we have a black sheet song?
That's what you need.
Piet Van Waarde (00:14):
A black sheet song or a jingle.
We do have a black sheet.
Oh, yeah, well, that's.
Have you any Whoa?
Yeah, no, yeah, I don't know wehave a.
We have a little intro piecethat we do.
I probably heard it a thousandtimes at the house because
jennifer probably played it overand over and I just didn't
realize that was your thing.
Yeah, I'll pay.
Actually, joel wrote it for me,did he?
Mike Orenstein (00:32):
yeah loved it.
I need to call him.
Actually he's been.
He's all over my tiktok now, sooh is he.
Piet Van Waarde (00:38):
Yeah, I'm doing that?
Mike Orenstein (00:38):
yeah, like heavy raising money doing all of his
stuff.
So that's the only social mediaI actually go on, except for
like to specifically go readsomething that you wrote.
I only go onto Facebook forliterally that thing, because
it's a little too much for my.
I get sucked in so easy.
Piet Van Waarde (01:05):
Well, thank you for joining us for another
episode of SidewalkConversations.
I am thrilled to have my guestwith me.
He's not just an interestingperson, he's also a very close
personal friend, and so I amexcited about introducing him to
you in a moment.
But before I do, I wanted tosay thank you to our sponsor,
and our sponsor today happens tobe my wife, carol Van Ward.
(01:27):
She is a realtor and she worksin the Austin area, but she also
represents Lake Properties onLake LBJ, and she's not only a
very skilled person, but she'ssomebody you'll love working
with.
So if you are looking to buy ahome or sell a home, give Carol
Van Water a call and we'll puther number in the notes.
(01:49):
All right, I want to thank you,mike, for joining us.
This is Mike Orenstein, a goodfriend of mine.
Thank you for being here.
Mike Orenstein (01:57):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
Piet Van Waarde (01:59):
Good yeah, we've been talking about this
for a while.
I think we've tried to do thisa couple times we have.
Mike Orenstein (02:04):
I may or may not have canceled a couple times.
Traveling guy yes, but hey,we're here now, yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (02:11):
Good, good, well, thank you.
So I have a little pattern thatI tend to do with my guests and
that is I like to start kind ofearly on in their journey, like
where they were born, raisedkind of some early influences.
So tell us a little bit of howyour story started.
Mike Orenstein (02:28):
Yeah, so my story is I mean, it's not unique
, a lot of people have it, butmost of my friends don't have
kind of the same journey.
I was, my dad was military Realquick my parents got divorced.
My stepdad was military, so Iwas born in California, but real
quickly we traveled to Japanand Alabama and all over the
United States, and so the travelwas interesting.
I'm not sure that I think whenI started having kids I realized
(02:49):
I wanted them to be in a morestable environment for, like
friends wise.
But I will say it gave me somereally cool experiences that I
didn't get.
You know, in Alabama I was oneof two white males in my school,
which gives you a view insidethe world that most people don't
get to have on being a genuineminority.
So I got to some cool things.
In Japan, I got to meet somefamily friends of mine that
(03:10):
still live in Houston that aremy closest friends, and so I've
known them my whole life.
Piet Van Waarde (03:14):
So I've had some good experiences.
You stay in touch with thoseguys.
Mike Orenstein (03:17):
Yeah, actually, I'll talk more about that in one
of your later questions.
But yeah, I'm actually going togo out and see them.
Unfortunately, one of themactually has stage four cancer
and we just found out two weeksago.
So we're going to go see Chrisand he's in Houston now, so then
we'll go across and see herright after, as soon as I get
back from my trip.
So, yeah, yes, they're goodfriends of mine, their daughter
and I.
We all lived together years agowhen my family was struggling.
(03:37):
So it's a very interestingstory and story and it all
stemmed from us traveling aroundthe world in the military.
So, wow, cool, yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (03:45):
So what were?
You already mentioned kind of alittle bit about it, how that's
kind of giving you anappreciation for longtime
friends and you tried to providethat for your own kids.
But what are some of the otherthings that you drew out of your
growing up experience that youcan see as a thread in your life
, right?
Mike Orenstein (04:01):
now.
It's so funny because I canactually answer that question
better today.
We just traveled to Europe.
We went with our, our wholefamily went right Well, me and
the two boys that are available.
But Gabe is kind of a worldtraveler, like he goes to Europe
five or six or seven times ayear, oh wow.
But being there, one of thethings he's super conscientious
of is not being the Americantourist which I have a little
(04:22):
different view of.
But you know what I mean, Peopleknow what you say.
So he was kind of talkingthrough that as we were there a
lot.
But I realized that, havingdone as much as I've done in the
military with my parents andstuff, I kind of already had
that in my head, like beingrespectful of where you are In
Japan.
I was truly an outsider thereand so you want to learn their
culture and be a part of theirworld, and so I kind of already
had that built into me there.
(04:42):
And not that there weren'tthings I had to learn and some
nuances to how that works, but Ialready kind of had in my head
of, you know, being new guy orthe different guy there, and so
it really wasn't a hugechallenge for me to be, you know
, more culturally sensitive aswe were there and be realizing
that I'm on their, I'm in theirworld, they're on mine.
But I do think a lot of thatearly experiences kind of gave
me a good background so itwasn't as challenging as I've
(05:04):
seen some other people strugglewith when they go to Europe.
Piet Van Waarde (05:07):
And so you feel like that's like a common
thread for like some things inyour life where you've always
because I've noticed this aboutyou You're kind of one of those
guys who can fit in a variety ofenvironments because you're
just genuinely yourself and youtend to accept people as they
are.
So is that something you feellike you've drawn out of your
life experience For?
Mike Orenstein (05:28):
sure, when I was in high school it was so
interesting, and I have friendstoday from high school that
still ask me about this.
But I kid you not, I wasfriends with the jocks, with the
nerds.
I was in school in the 80s, sowe were all labeled right.
Piet Van Waarde (05:38):
Everybody had a label.
Mike Orenstein (05:39):
But I was genuinely friends with every
single group of people.
I was in sports but I was alsosmart.
But you're right, I just havethis I don't tend to be drawn
towards a single type of thing.
I really do like variety and myfriends, and so I literally had
friends in every group ofpeople, even from poor to rich
to whatever it didn't.
That didn't matter to me asmuch as who they were as a
person and so, and thatdeveloped even.
(05:59):
I wasn't even that healthy of ahigh school student.
I had issues there, but that Iwasn't even that healthy of a
high school student, I hadissues there.
But that has followed me allthe way through my life.
Jennifer and I have bothnoticed that we're kind of
peacekeepers amongst the groupsof peoples because we're in both
groups or whatever.
The groups are right and even atchurch we find that a lot,
where we tend to be peacemakersbetween two different groups of
people, and so it's sometimes astruggle, but I really like it
(06:20):
because, I don't know, it justhas made me a more well-rounded
person who's also taught methings that have helped me in
ministry.
Work right In ministry.
You're going to work with everykind of person.
Piet Van Waarde (06:29):
Yeah, Well, that's a great lead-in to the
next question I wanted to askyou about.
So you're very active in therecovery ministry at our church
and part of that, I would guess,is a product of the fact that
you're very nonjudgmental.
You kind of move into anynumber of circles and feel
comfortable and they feelcomfortable with you.
But tell me a little bit aboutwhat stimulated your interest in
(06:50):
recovery.
Mike Orenstein (06:52):
Yeah, in general my parents weren't really great
at the concept of being aroundfor other people, but somewhere
along my journey I just had, youknow, being in different groups
in school.
People would come to me andjust ask me questions and say,
how do you do this, how do youdo that?
So as I became a Christian inmy early 20s, I just kind of
already had this view of youknow how to kind of be there for
(07:12):
other people.
And then when I first got intoministry, the church I went to
was really good.
They had, I mean, hundreds ofdifferent ministries and I just
saw the church really beingactive in the world.
World and I'm like I want to bea part of this.
Jennifer and I got mixed uppretty quick in marriage
ministry, premarital ministry,those kinds of things, all kinds
of things.
But I kind of always realizedthat I had that kind of inside
me already.
The church has kind of helpedme put a formation around that
(07:33):
right, a place that already hasa structure involved, because my
strength is not doing it fromthe ground up.
My strength is coming intosomething that maybe has a
little structure and I can kindof make it my own or build it up
and so.
So we've certainly done thatwith the recovery work, yeah, so
recovery is interesting becausea chunk down our journey of
doing other ministry, jenniferand I both realized, especially
as chris went off toincarceration, that we both had
(07:54):
our own issues.
So recovery kind of came as aside effect of already being in
ministry and then realizing thatwe had struggles and that not
only do we need to work on ourown struggles but but through
our working on our own struggleswe can help others go through
that journey.
Right, We've been there, We'vedone that, we know it.
It doesn't mean you're done oryou're perfect, but and you're
right, the biggest key is iswhen somebody comes to me, I
don't have any top frontjudgment.
(08:16):
I do the newcomers 101, whichis anybody that's new.
I tell them you say you're alsonot going to catch me judging
you or saying anything.
Most likely I've made the samemistake as you and probably more
, to be honest, because I was achampion in that area and that's
not a good thing, but it reallydoes help to know that and to
have that inside of you.
So yeah, our own recoveryjourneys have helped us be
(08:37):
better leaders and pastors ofrecovery at the church.
Piet Van Waarde (08:40):
Well, and I think that's what makes for a
good recovery leader, right?
If you're trying to like, ifyou come from a perspective like
I got this figured out and ifyou come to me I will give you
the right answers, that's justnot going to work.
But if you say, like I'm afellow struggler, I'm working
through my crap and I'm going todo my best to do, you know the
work I need to do, but hey,let's walk together.
(09:03):
I think that's at the heart ofrecovery, right?
Mike Orenstein (09:04):
When I very first started working with the
recovery program Sober Recoveryat Shoreline.
One of the things that was oneof my biggest struggles was
that's what was happening alittle bit.
They were just bringing peoplefrom other ministries to help
fill leadership positions and Iwas the first person to come in
and be like we can't do this.
It doesn't fit well becauseyou're right, when we first
stand up and speak atSelf-Recovery, we say our thing,
we say I am a beloved believerin Jesus Christ, our Lord and
(09:26):
Savior.
I struggle with this and myname is this.
Your identity and your struggleare two different things.
But having a background andunderstanding of it and working
through it yourself is reallythe only Authenticity, is a
critical part of recovery.
There's no way around it.
You cannot fake it.
You cannot be there forsomebody if you just have
literally no concept orbackground of it.
You can be empathetic and youcan be in their corner, but to
really do the journey you havegot to have gone through some of
(09:48):
it yourself, absolutely.
Piet Van Waarde (09:50):
All right.
So that leads me to a moresensitive question.
Your own journey has included achallenge with pornography,
which, in our day, just seems tobe so prolific and it's so
pervasive.
One click away and you can seewhatever you want to see.
And so I have two questions onthat.
One is like, and like I'venoticed that there are some
(10:12):
things you can talk about andthere's like literally very
little shame factor.
Like you can say, I'vestruggled with drugs, I've
struggled with drinking, I'vestruggled with you know.
You can even say I've hadsuicidal thoughts, I wanted to
kill somebody, and there seemsto be more grace for that kind
of struggle than if you say, man, I've been addicted to porn.
It's just like, at a wholenother level.
(10:34):
So the first question is whatgave you the courage to come up
with the willingness, I guess,to say hey, yeah, no, this is my
struggle.
Mike Orenstein (10:46):
You know you made a great point because you
are not wrong.
So I was introduced to I wouldjust call it pornography In my
day.
It was a little bit uniquebecause it wasn't quite the
ability that we have today.
Right, you're talking likemagazines, but I was introduced
to things at a too young of agefor my body to understand it and
that's kind of what set me offin that journey.
It wasn't like a traumaticevent.
There were some things in mypast that you know were
(11:21):
traumatic events, but just theintroduction is something.
I felt like the whole room wentsilent that first day we had
done a special event.
There was like 300 people inthe chapel and I kid you not.
Now, to be honest with you, Idon't actually know what
happened because I feel like Imight have blanked out it was so
weird, but having stood up infront of people for the first
time, saying it publicly, reallywas profound.
But you know, the craziest partAfter the fact was not judgment,
(11:43):
was not any of the things thatyou have in your head.
I had a line of men and women,and so you know, subway Recovery
I won't counsel women and we domen on men, so I had to, you
know, give them to somebody else.
But I had a lot of peoplewaiting to ask me questions
because no one had, even at CR,nobody had said that yet and
that's the R, and so I was kindof surprised.
But also it opened the door tonow, where you know, yes, it was
(12:03):
uncomfortable at first, but nowI love the fact that I've been
free of it for more than 10years and I can help people in
that journey.
Because you kind of touched ontwo things Also most people
don't realize that drugs andalcohol.
I think it's pretty obviousthat it's an addiction, right?
I don't think anybody struggleswith saying that.
A lot of people don't believethat pornography is an addiction
.
But, in your brain.
It works exactly like cocaineit rewires your brain and the
(12:25):
only way to stop doing it is tounwire the negative wiring.
You know neurolinguisticprogramming.
It works exactly the same, butthe world as a whole doesn't
view that right.
Piet Van Waarde (12:35):
So was there something that finally said,
look, I got to do somethingabout this.
Mike Orenstein (12:41):
Yeah.
So this is an interesting.
It's a long, but in 2008, mydoctor said I was doing some
things I shouldn't be doing withdrugs and alcohol.
My doctor said stop doing it oryou're going to die.
I kid you not, but I did Coldturkey Like you know what.
Hey, I don't want to die.
I'm, you know, I'm not thatinto my stuff.
But what I didn't do was work onmy issues and the reason I was
(13:02):
using drugs was from trauma frommy past.
So I stopped drinking andsmoking.
But I started doing mypornography addiction ramped up
because, like I said, it's anaddiction like no others I
wasn't using.
Here.
I didn't have a comfort becauseI hadn't worked on my issues.
So I just picked up a whole newaddiction.
But that had huge effects on mymarriage, on my relationship, as
I started having kids and theystarted getting older.
I did not want my kids tofollow in my footpath.
So at one point in time, really, when we started getting into
(13:24):
CR, I was like I don't want thisin my life anymore.
I want freedom from this, and Ijust made the decision through
the help of Jesus Christ, thankthe Lord.
I know the Lord because therewas no way around that, but it
was just a day where I'm like Ican't do this and the concept of
you're only as sick as yoursecrets is 1000% true.
Once it was on the table andout there, people asked me I
will be at the Rudy's barbecueplace and somebody hey, mike, it
(13:46):
was good to see you at churchand they'll ask me a question
and they'll say the word porn atRudy's barbecue.
Piet Van Waarde (13:51):
Do I love that?
I do not, but I'm comfortablenow, to be like hey, you know,
let's go over here and maybetalk over here a little bit, but
I don't have that shame factorybecause you know I'm not saying
I've conquered it with thesense of your mind is always
going to be a battle until we'rein heaven.
Mike Orenstein (14:05):
That's my belief system.
But I've conquered it with thefact that I don't act out like I
did and I have a really goodcomfort level with talking about
it and being open and callingmy sponsors and letting people
into my life to help me stay onthis journey forever.
But eventually you just get tothat place that you are like I
have got to get this out of me.
It's causing damage in theareas I don't want damage.
I love marriage ministry.
We've kind of always been apart of it and our marriage was
(14:27):
falling apart due to my ownissues, right.
So I have to make changes there.
If I'm going to help others,I've got to fix my own marriage
right.
Fix your own house first.
Piet Van Waarde (14:35):
So when you talk about it like an addiction
and you're dealing with it, doyou find yourself saying okay, a
lot of the principles like the12 steps and so on are
applicable in this area as wellas in other.
Quote unquote more typicaladdictions 100%.
Mike Orenstein (14:51):
I mean really step one.
Denial is the critical part.
Once you realize even if you'renot convinced it's a quote
addiction, just knowing that youhave a situation that's causing
you to be a way that you don'twant to be, or it's having
impact in your life, that's ahuge step.
Usually, once you can get overthat hump, you can be like okay,
I admit, I have an issue andyou're almost always willing to
(15:15):
then take the steps to get ridof it.
But yeah, the root of why youdo that the average person
doesn't take up drinking orsmoking or pornography for
absolutely no reason.
That's not usually the case.
Usually there was some trauma,they were abused as a child or
whatever.
So you kind of try to backtrackand say, okay, how did you even
get on the path of addiction,whatever?
Piet Van Waarde (15:32):
your addiction is, and those roots are always
the same.
It's obviously meeting.
Mike Orenstein (15:34):
some need Absolutely.
Trying to fill a hole ofsomething Exactly, and that's
the goal is to backtrack and seewhere along the way did
something happen or where didthat hole come in.
Sometimes, I think it's evenjust having walked away from
Jesus.
You start filling with thingsthat aren't God because you've
walked away from having him inthat place.
So yeah, the steps to break theaddiction are very similar, but
I will tell you in myexperience, I feel like it's
(15:54):
harder because, like you said,you can be in your bedroom by
yourself.
I travel a ton right, and Ihave massive accountability when
I travel.
My computer's locked down.
I have a government computer,so it's literally locked down,
but I am also on the phone withmy sponsors and my people all
the time, because it's somethingthat you literally have no
accountability.
If you're not willing to takecare of it yourself, you're
going to do it, and so youreally have to put some steps in
(16:16):
place.
So the outcome is a little morechallenging to get to, but the
steps to get there are exactlythe same.
Piet Van Waarde (16:22):
So now let's say there's somebody listening
to you talk about this and theysay, man, this guy's talking
about the stuff that I'm dealingwith right now, which I'm sure
you have people talk to you allthe time about that Almost every
day yeah.
So what is it that you typicallysay on the front end of it?
To say here's one, two, threewhat you need to do.
(16:44):
You're like I know you don'twant to be in this place, You're
tired of it, you feel guilt,you feel shame.
What are the three first thingsyou tell people?
Mike Orenstein (16:52):
Yeah.
So that's a great question.
It kind of comes in two prongsbecause Celebrate Recovery
itself as a ministry actuallygears the newcomer knight to
someone who doesn't even believein Jesus Christ.
So a lot of times, if it'ssomeone who I'm not sure
believes in Jesus, I will startthe conversation with just kind
of talk to it a little bit.
Hey, walk me through what it isyou think you have going on.
Give me a little more of yourstory and your history, right,
just to get them to open up atiny bit about it, because most
(17:12):
likely they've never talkedabout it in their whole lives.
So first step is just kind ofget some freedom there.
On the other side of it is, ifyou do believe in Jesus, one of
the first things we do is talkyou through.
Hey, let's talk about yourrelationship with Jesus and have
you prayed about this?
Have you done any of the thingsthat you might know to do in
this area?
Those kind of work out in twovery different once you've done
the first six lessons, weactually walk people through
(17:33):
accepting Jesus Christ, becauseI firmly believe that ultimately
on this earth to really conqueryour situations, you need Jesus
in your heart.
I just don't see an easyworldly view.
Most of my leaders will tell youthey white-knuckled it for 10
years and they've accepted JesusChrist and not that it isn't
hard, but you then have this newfoundation, you have this new
hope in this person that canwalk you through this and be
(17:54):
there for you.
So it kind of depends on whichdirection they're coming from
for me and how I will approachthat.
Piet Van Waarde (17:59):
Man.
That's a great word.
And there's all thesescriptures, obviously, that talk
about the Spirit of God thatlives within us.
So it's not just like I'madhering to a new set of beliefs
.
I'm actually receivingsomething I could never have on
my own, and that is the personof Christ.
Yeah, I agree, and when thatspirit is living in you, you
(18:22):
have an access to power that youcould never generate on your
own.
Mike Orenstein (18:27):
Yeah, you know that's so profound, because I
found myself the last few weekswith my travel schedule getting
kind of off in my own anxietyand even getting myself feeling
like it.
And so I'll step back and mylife coach will ask me hey, so
what have you done differentlyor what aren't you doing?
The first thing is almostalways my morning Bible study.
It doesn't have to be morning,right, I just tend to do it in
the morning.
But when I don't do the thingsI know I need to do to connect
(18:48):
with God early in the day, ithas 100% impact.
And if I go more than one day,that impact is greater and
greater.
So you're right.
And then remembering, like yousaid, that this isn't a nebulous
book.
This is the power that has comeinto us with the Holy Spirit
and knowing that he absolutelycan fix something that you
probably have no control over.
I don't know how people live onthis earth without that,
because I look at that as myhope, and the world is a
(19:11):
challenging place and withouthaving that, hope.
I don't know what my outlookwould be without Jesus in my
heart.
It really is a big deal to meand to my family as a whole.
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (19:22):
Now that leads me into another area of life
that has been a bit of achallenge for you.
You have three great kids, andyet you've had challenges, like
every parent does, including oneof your kids being incarcerated
.
And I'm just curious, you know,I've heard it said this way
you're only as happy as yoursaddest kid, and so when you are
(19:45):
dealing with something that is,as you know, as difficult as
watching one of your kids gointo prison, it's at another
level right, and so, thankfully,we just got news that he's soon
on his way out and I'm gratefulfor that, but talk a little bit
(20:05):
about how you navigated thatsituation for you and Jennifer,
and maybe even how the Lordhelped you work through some of
that challenge.
Mike Orenstein (20:14):
Yeah, it's interesting.
You should say it because notonly is it hard to talk about
pornography, but the accusationagainst my son is in a related
area, and so you won't seepeople even tell people what
their kid's in there for.
Now we know his story, we knowthat he didn't actually do what
he was in there for, but theaverage person on the street
that sees it or reads this thingin there doesn't believe that
or doesn't understand that.
Right, but it's so funnybecause it's not funny.
(20:36):
It's interesting.
But this is just statistics, Ithink is important.
80% of people that go throughthis type of trauma get divorced
, and the reason they getdivorced is not what you would
think.
A lot of times it's their owninternal struggle.
They're like this was my fault,I'm responsible, or they blame
their spouse.
Hey, you're the one you knowlike you had been Right If you
(20:56):
had been addicted to pornography, even though my son didn't even
commit this.
Those are things that stillhappen in a relationship because
you're dealing with such a highlevel of trauma, but also just
even the dealing with it andgoing through it and having the
ability.
When I first started postingabout it on Facebook, I was on
Facebook back then, like I said,I need prayers for this and I
wasn't getting specific.
But Jennifer was like, hey, Idon't know if I really want this
out there, but I was like Iwant as much prayer as I can get
(21:18):
around us immediately and thatat the time was the best way to
get out the news right.
But we both made a commitmentearly on to work on ourselves.
My wife had her first battle ofanxiety ever and we got help
right away.
Pastor Cheryl and Kelly and thechurch went around us like I've
never seen before, like thechurch you talked about how we
got through it.
The very day it happened I wasstanding outside the jail.
(21:39):
Pastor Cheryl and I had barelymet.
We knew her a little bit, butonly a couple of years into
being here and she called me outof the blue.
She had never, ever called meand she called me and she's like
hey, I felt led by the Lord tocall you right now.
Oh wow, I burst into tears.
I'm standing on the littleparking strip at the prison.
They won't let me in because myson's not a minor.
My son was an adult when hewent to jail, so they wouldn't
let me in to see him or anything.
(22:00):
So I'm standing literally inthe parking lot at the prison,
crying my eyes out, and PastorCheryl calls out of the blue and
she's like hey, god told me tocall you.
What do you need?
And I I don't have a doggoneclue what I need to be honest
with you.
But all she said to me was getyour people head to Otto and
Sandy's house.
We were already in their smallgroup at that time and I will
have every pastor there thatneeds to be there.
(22:21):
Sure enough, we went over toOtto and Sandy's just on
autopilot.
Luckily the prison was inPflugerville, so it was close
and within a one-hour period,all't none of that.
But like, what do you need?
You know, my wife for anxietywas being spiked because she
stopped eating for a few days,because she had never
(22:41):
experienced anxiety.
So the first thing was hey, weneed to get some food in your
body, like the tangible stuffand having those friends around
us, like right away, was just sopowerful.
And then the Lord has seen fit,thankfully, to make it so early
on.
Jennifer spiked quickly and gotthat where I was able to stay.
Even though I had a panicattack in the parking lot I was
still able to kind of maintainmy composure.
(23:01):
So for the first few months Iwas being there for Jennifer and
making sure she had what sheneeded.
Then at some juncture she gotmore healthy and I dropped into
the deep end and I went off.
But then she was able to helpme right, because she also then
was coming out of hers a littlebit and had the power to help me
.
So at any given time one of uswas just healthy enough to walk
through it with the other person.
And I had already been in CR, soI already had a support system.
(23:22):
She went to CR that first night.
Kelly Mata was speaking thatnight.
She said, hey, I know you'renot in CR, but just come.
And Jennifer went and she'snever left because she found our
hearts.
And having people that neveronce questioned anything about
the situation, just said what doyou need, was profound and it
just kept us solid.
And then we both made theagreement that we were going to
make sure we worked on ourselvesand made sure that marriage and
(23:44):
our family stayed strong.
And I will confess that earlyon our marriage didn't struggle,
but we didn't realize the hitit was having on our remaining
children.
And so I, you know, confesssome parenting fails early on,
which we have since corrected.
And as chris is about to comehome, we're navigating how that
might look and try to be therebetter for our children, because
when you're in crisis yourself,you think you're there for
(24:05):
somebody else, but we reallyrealize we weren't but, again,
people from the church andpeople around us rallied up and
and stood up for our kids andfilled into these places that we
weren't able to fill in forbecause we just didn't have the
ability well, I think that saysa lot about you guys too, that
you, you had the kind ofcommunity already existing so
that when the call was made, allthese people kind of came
(24:26):
around.
Piet Van Waarde (24:27):
And that's what I always find myself saying to
others is, like you know, whenyou're going to have a crisis in
your life, it's going to tocome and, like you said, it's
going to be navigated with thework of the Holy Spirit in your
life, through the Lord.
But then there's that othercomponent, which is the tangible
expression of his love throughpeople, and if you don't have
those connections before thecrisis comes, you're not going
(24:50):
to have the energy of thewherewithal once the crisis hits
to try and establish yourcommunity.
It's it's like you got to makethis investment before you think
you need it.
That's good and uh, and I thinkyou know the fact that so many
people were willing to comearound as a testament to your
understanding of that.
Mike Orenstein (25:06):
I think that goes back to your first question
.
Right with that foundation inchurch in jesus christ and
having realized right away thateven our very first group at
church when we're young was apremarital group, that I was
evening with my brother andstepsister because we and
sister-in-law now right who werein denver, so we kind of built
that, we started that journeypretty early.
But you're right, we got herepretty quick.
Pastor cheryl, very first timeever.
Sorry.
I was like, hey, I need you tobe on the parking team and I
(25:28):
need you to sit in this rowbehind.
I was on the safety team.
I need you to watch pastorrobin laura's bro, here and I
was like cool, who are you?
Piet Van Waarde (25:34):
Maybe we could start with some introductions.
Mike Orenstein (25:36):
But she knew in her heart that I was there to
serve and that was the craziestthing.
I love that.
I'm not sure I had even seenthat yet, right, because I kid
you not, it was the first weekwe'd been in town.
But, people like her who hadthis real sensitivity to the
Spirit, knew right away and,like I said, she's still my life
coach, sam, and know we'restill friends with this entire
group of people that were there.
Nothing's changed.
We still meet with every singleone of them.
(25:57):
It's so interesting and they'reall as excited as I am for
Chris to finally come home,which again says something
they're truly invested in ourlives and I like that.
Piet Van Waarde (26:07):
So when we talk about the church because you've
been mentioning it a number oftimes you know I find myself and
I know we've had enoughconversations offline.
You have similar feelings, butthere are some really wonderful
things that you can see in thechurch, and then there's some
stuff that you're like I don'tget that.
Mike Orenstein (26:24):
That seems a little strange to me or that
doesn't make sense to me.
Piet Van Waarde (26:28):
So I'm, you know, as a ministry leader, as
somebody who's been active inthe church, you know I would
like you to kind of play outboth sides of that, like when
active in the church.
I would like you to kind ofplay out both sides of that.
When you look at the church inthe world today, what are some
of the things that make you sayyou know what, I'm so glad the
church exists.
And then we'll get to the otherside of here are things maybe
I'm concerned with.
Mike Orenstein (26:50):
Yeah, I think people don't really see what the
church does because I don'tthink they take the time to look
.
But even just speaking ofShoreline Church, like we
support orphanages all aroundthe world, we do things that
nobody else is willing to do.
In countries like Haiti that weboth know the government has no
infrastructure whatsoever, sothe only place doing anything
there is the church, and so Isee that the ministries like
Cyber Recovery only operates inchurches.
(27:12):
It doesn't exist anywhere else.
It's done inside the safe placeof a church.
So I think, ministry-wise, Ithink churches are doing a
really good job of hosting allthese things that God has called
us to do and, like Shorelinehappens to be a nice big
building right, so we get tohost.
I don't even know what we havenow.
We have a ton of small groupsbecause we were blessed with a
physical location.
That's amazing.
So I think that in that area,the church is really strong, and
(27:33):
I do also believe when you walkin the doors of a church, I
think we do a really good job ofthat early introduction in
grace and hey, welcome in.
We don't care where you're from.
Let's really talk through this.
Let's say what do you need.
What are you here for?
How can we help you?
I do think that most churches doa really good job at that first
line hey, what can we do foryou?
Powerful, and I have theblessing of being the leader of
(27:54):
all the churches in Austin forSub-Recovery, so I literally go
to like 30 different churches.
I don't attend them and I gothere to help them with their
ministries.
I know the pastors there, so Isee this play out in almost
every church.
There's this really good frontline of hey, no-transcript, but
(28:23):
it is not my area of expertiseand no disrespect, it's not my
favorite thing to do.
But having that in there andalready having a side, what are
some of the things that?
Piet Van Waarde (28:36):
you look at and you go.
Man, we got to figure that out,yeah.
Mike Orenstein (28:40):
You know, going back to my early history, I was
raised Jewish.
When I was younger which nodisrespect I love my Jewish
heritage, it's all over my bodyand tattoos but Jewish is very
strict and is based on youliving out these whatever 617
rules right.
Then, when my mom got remarriedto a Catholic, we had a whole
other, different set of rulesthat were based on how you acted
(29:01):
and were there right.
And I think the bottom line is,when man gets too involved with
structure of religion, we losethe point of what Jesus Christ
did for us on the cross.
And so I feel like and this isjust the honest truth I feel
like the Western church hadgotten so.
You know, I don't know what theright word is, but we've let
man make the rules over what Godwould be doing and we put God
(29:23):
in a box.
And I think when you start toput God in a box, you forget
that he is over everything andhas the power to do all things.
And so I think we just I thinkhumans have done things that we
shouldn't have, and the Westernchurch is really famous for that
.
And also there is a challengefor me in my life.
The mixing of money and churchis really a challenge.
You need the money to run thechurch.
(29:44):
I'm a full believer.
We're starting our ownnonprofit.
I already know right ahead.
You know you need to have that,but I also see where sometimes
that becomes the hyper-focus.
You can see on the news everytime all these people that are
falling and one of the thingsthey're doing is hiding money or
stealing money, and so I thinkthis concept of mixing God with
money becomes a challenge.
I think it can be done right.
We've seen some powerful placesuse it.
(30:04):
We may have ministries likethis one that do a really good
job, but I just think that we'veput so much overhead on the
church to make it almost like abusiness that we maybe have lost
focus on what we were called todo, which is just stone cold
ministry, right, yeah, yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (30:18):
And it's right because you feel like, okay,
well, if we want to get thisthing done, that's going to
require resources, and when youcan leverage resources, you can
do some pretty impressive things.
But then you know, any time Iremember when I was serving as a
senior leader in a church, youcould almost feel it any time
there was the conversation aboutthe offering.
(30:40):
You can feel it in the room.
Oh yeah, here we go again.
You know I'm asking for money,and then all you need is a few
reports in the news about peopleyou know, using it poorly or
benefiting themselves throughthe lavish lifestyles and all
that you kind of go.
see, you can't trust those guys.
(31:01):
So it is a dilemma and I prayregularly for our congregation,
but also for the church ingeneral, that we'll kind of sort
that out in ways that peoplewill understand the need and
that we will be responsible withthe gift.
Mike Orenstein (31:18):
I think we need to be careful too, because what
you said is the truth.
I think people gauge theirunderstanding of church and
religion based on the news, andthe news is really mostly only
going to report when the badthings happen.
Right, I don't want to guess,but there's a ton of churches in
the US doing really good workon minimal budgets and they're
really being there for people.
So, as a whole, I really thinkthere's a lot of good.
I just don't think that's whatyou see, because no one wants to
(31:39):
report on a church doing theright thing because that's not
newsworthy right For me and you.
it's newsworthy because it'spowerful for me, but it's just
not something.
So I think a lot of people thatget their concept of church,
that don't go to church and seenothing but the news, they're
just getting such a smallviewpoint and, yes, we're humans
.
So there's epic fails amongstall of us.
I have failed multiple times inmy life.
I will continue to fail untilI'm in heaven.
(32:01):
I already know that.
And I'm not that sad about itanymore because I have a good
infrastructure in place.
I'm excited about the future,so that's good.
Piet Van Waarde (32:09):
All right, so I'd like to ask a last question,
which is about your lifemission or vision, and you told
me beforehand you actually had avision statement written, so
I'd love for you to share that,yeah, and I'm going to read this
because, honestly, my wifewrote it and it's just much
better if I use her exact words.
Mike Orenstein (32:26):
And I will speak on twofold, because I also kind
of have a side one of my ownlife.
But our mission statement forour home is in this house, we
use the wisdom given to us byGod through his word and the
freedom and recovery gained bythe redemptive work of Christ on
the cross, to heal thebrokenhearted, proclaim liberty
for the captives and open theprison doors for those who are
bound.
Piet Van Waarde (32:46):
That sounds familiar.
There's like some mission ofJesus in there somewhere.
A little bit right, hopefullyright.
Mike Orenstein (32:52):
But my wife, as you know, is profoundly
faith-driven, where I'm a lotmore logical-driven, and so
she's able to do this.
But also, going all the wayback to my youth, I saw enough
things happen negative that I'vealways had a protective spirit.
I've always wanted to be therefor other people.
Even when I travel, I'm alwaystexting my wife, even just for
safety things.
But all three of my boys havethis profoundly protective
(33:13):
nature.
My son has his own securitybusiness, even as a side
business, and all my boys arethere.
So, also as kind of a sidemission thing, I want to make
sure that I'm keeping focus on.
We were put on this earth to bethere for other people in
whatever capacity it looks like.
And yes, for maybe us it's alittle more hyper-focused on and
protection isn't just physicalprotection, spiritual protection
and recovery protection, right,and all that stuff.
(33:40):
But God has seen fit to putthat in me and I've seen it even
develop in a much greatercapacity in my boys, like they
took the mantle and have gonewith it in profound ways, and so
I just love being able to seewhat God has done and being able
to, you know, to do more withit than I was able to do even
myself.
So perfect.
Piet Van Waarde (33:49):
Well, mike, thank you so much.
This has been a greatconversation.
I appreciate you being withtoday.
I know you're crazy busy andgetting ready to travel again,
so for you to take the time outreally means a lot.
Mike Orenstein (33:59):
So thank you.
Thank you for having me here.
I appreciate it, I love it.
Honestly, talking through thisstuff is always good.
It's always beneficial.
Piet Van Waarde (34:05):
so thank you, and thank you for joining us.
We invite you back.
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