July 10, 2025 • 10 mins
**Join us for a special summer series of conversations with Shaina and Piet about the genius of the "and." We are so excited to share this 4-part discussion with you AND for the launch of season 4 of Sidewalk Conversations this August! If you enjoy this episode and want to check out all of the things Piet is working on, head on over to the Piet Van Waarde channel on Youtube.**
Today, we discuss the transformative power of using "and" instead of "or" when processing life's complexities and how embracing multiple truths simultaneously can radically change your perspective and emotional wellbeing.
• Most people lack strong tools and coping skills to navigate everyday challenges
• Society reinforces binary thinking (this OR that) when most situations are actually nuanced
• Using "and" expands your opportunity scale and opens up more possibilities
• You can receive a devastating medical diagnosis AND hold hope for the future
• The discomfort of holding contradictory truths is why many avoid this approach
• Processing family dysfunction requires acknowledging both love AND hurt
• Religious communities sometimes discourage honest processing in the name of honor
• Health and fitness shouldn't be diet OR exercise but diet AND exercise
• Well-meaning phrases like "at least she's healthy" invalidate complex emotions
• Allowing space for grief AND joy simultaneously leads to more authentic healing
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waarde (00:00):
Man I am so excited about today my good
friend Shana, who I have notseen for a year.
Shaina Zavala (00:08):
Way too long.
Piet Van Waarde (00:10):
Has graciously decided that she would like to
be filmed.
Shaina Zavala (00:15):
I don't know if that's an accurate way of
putting that, but I'm so excitedto have a conversation with you
because you're the best.
Piet Van Waarde (00:22):
I'm excited to have it with you.
And so, before we got on theair, we were talking about like,
well, what should we talk about?
We have so many things, and youcame up with this suggestion
and I've now been thinking aboutit for several days and I love
the conversation, and so I'llset it up this way and then feel
free to interject.
So most of the things thatwe're experiencing in the world
(00:43):
today, it doesn't matter whatyou're talking about, it doesn't
matter if it's religion,politics, relationships, you
know, just whatever is happeningin the world.
There seems to be this way ofthinking that is, either it's
this or it's this, and either ormindset.
And one of the things that yousuggested is, like, one of the
things you're talking about withpeople is hey, can we not talk
(01:06):
about the genius of the end?
Yeah, like, could it be thatthere are two things that are
true at the same time, thingsthat may even seem contradictory
?
So I'd like you to kind of playit out in some some of the ways
that you've been talking topeople about.
Shaina Zavala (01:20):
Yeah, so I feel like the number one thing is you
know I, you know me, I call itcounseling in the wild, um, but
as I'm kind of talking, that'swhat it feels like the trenches
sometimes, but as I'm kind oftalking to people and helping
them navigate just differentthings I'm not even talking
about like major traumas causethat's its own thing but just
like the everyday things thathappen in life to everybody, I'm
realizing that the averageperson out there does not have,
(01:43):
in my opinion, you know, reallystrong tools and resources and
coping skills to be able to justnavigate the stuff that happens
around them.
And one of the I would sayprobably the top thing that I'm
seeing is people feel like it'salways a this or that choice.
Right, we live in the or, and Ialso think like our society
reinforces that.
So you, you like dogs or youlike cats, like, right, you know
(02:06):
you're the cat lady, you're thedog person, but you're not both
.
You know, and the reality isthat almost everything in life
is gray, it's nuanced, it'salmost never black and white.
And I I feel really passionatethat if people can learn how to
use literally the word and andfind the genius in that, that it
will radically change your life, and I think like that's a bold
(02:27):
claim to say radical, but I Imean it because I think if
people can grasp how to use, andthat it will help them reframe
and reshape the way they processthings, the way that they
bounce back from things, and soI mean literally, like you said,
like you can we'll use you foran example you can get a medical
diagnosis that is devastatingand hope can be on the horizon.
(02:52):
Those things don't feel likethey go together, but they can
be true, and it doesn't alwayshave to be in a negative way.
It can also be.
You know people you can becontent and happy with where you
are in life.
You can say you know, I likethis job, it pays all my bills,
my bills, and I want more for myfuture and I want to go back to
(03:12):
school.
Multiple things can be true atthe same time, and so I just my
hope is that people will walkaway and be like, oh, it doesn't
have to be this or that,there's another option.
Piet Van Waarde (03:21):
And one of the things I love about it and it's
been something I've beenthinking about is because it
opens up the opportunity scale.
So, like a lot of times, ifyou're thinking in either or it
means that your perspective isabout this big, it's like I
either got to do this or I gotto do this.
But if you can add the and it'slike, oh, wait a minute, there
(03:44):
are way more possibilities forme than I thought initially
possible.
So I love the idea of using andin any number of places.
So let me just kind of play offwhat you just said regarding
health and fitness.
So, in this journey that I'vebeen on, there are all these
people who talk about everythingboils down to diet yeah, you
(04:06):
got to eat these things, youcan't eat other things you got
to worry about to diet.
Yeah, you got to eat thesethings, you can't eat other
things.
You got to worry about yourdiet.
And then there are other peoplewho say, well, no, it's really
about your exercise, yourlifestyle, paying attention to
what your doctor says, and it'slike well, why does it have to
be an either?
Or why can't we just say youknow what it's about diet and
exercise, and the two reallywork together and I think
(04:32):
there's something about likecreating this very narrow thing
that gains, clicks.
It gains, likes it createsconflict.
But I think the real like youwere talking about how it works
in the real world is you got todo both.
Shaina Zavala (04:43):
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (04:43):
And there's so many ways in which that's
applicable.
Shaina Zavala (04:45):
Yeah, or think about all these like fad diets
that are going around right now.
Right, you know it's or um 75hard or anything, and I'm not
knocking any of those things ifyou do them, Um, but it's this
extreme.
I don't want to upset anyone,I'm joking, Um, but it's this
extreme thing that you're doingin this extreme way and it's
this or your or failure.
You know, that's kind of themindset you have when you go
(05:05):
into it and, again, that's notsustainable, it's not realistic.
And so, again, helping peopleto be able to understand, like
and I think something you justsaid can do this, that's just
like, I don't know.
It feels like it gives mealmost like a cool, calm and
(05:30):
collected, Like I don't have toaccept.
Imagine being in like abusiness negotiation and they
give you something and you'relike accept it, decline it,
negotiate it Like.
Piet Van Waarde (05:39):
you know what I ?
Shaina Zavala (05:39):
mean Like you, just it gives you a power.
There's power in that.
Piet Van Waarde (05:43):
Right, I love that.
Well, let's use a couple ofexamples.
So where, like when you werethinking about this initially
were, were there some thingsspecifically where you're like
counseling in the wild, whereyou're talking to people and
you're like, no, it doesn't haveto be an either or it's an end?
Did you have like some specificthings in mind where you did
that?
How much time do you have?
Shaina Zavala (06:03):
No, yes, absolutely, and I think for me,
um, the the first one that comesto mind is there are a lot of
people everybody has, you know,family dysfunction is a big one
and I am a I call a chaos kid.
I come from extreme dysfunctionin the family and so when I'm
helping people and we're talkingabout those things, the
(06:24):
understanding that multiplethings can be true.
So I'll give you an example Ilove my parents.
My parents did the best theycould and they failed me.
Being able to sit in that andbeing able to process that and
feel the feels and feelvalidated in that, that has
helped me be able to have abetter, stronger, real
(06:44):
relationship with my parents andwe've walked through it and all
of these things.
But if there's so many peopleout there that they grew up with
, you know, teen parents oralcoholic parents, or you know
parents that were addicts ofsome sort, a lot of the time our
society, like that, getsdiminished and so they don't
ever get to process that becausethey're like, well, I can't
hold them to that path, whatthey did in the past, or well, I
(07:04):
love them.
Or my mom, you know, is one ofmy favorite people and I love
her, you know, and so they don'tfeel like they can actually
feel those feelings, and so Ithink maybe in the Christian
sorry to starting, but I thinkin the Christian community
particularly like that example.
Piet Van Waarde (07:19):
It's like the scripture gets thrown out honor
your father and mother, right.
So at that point you feel like,well, I have to be kind and
gracious, no matter what theywere, and I have to kind of deny
the fact that they wereimperfect and in some cases even
cruel.
I can't talk about that becauseI was supposed to honor yes.
Shaina Zavala (07:38):
Or because I'm, or even just the most basic,
because I'm Christian now and Ican't.
I need to let go of it, and youwould be so surprised sometimes
, in the name of trying to speakwisdom, the amount of dumb
stuff that comes out of people'smouths.
I'm just like I don't think youmeant that the way that you said
that, but that's not helpful.
You know what I mean and so,yeah, just being able to say
(08:00):
that still happened and there'sstill feelings, you know,
attached to that.
And then you know, you knowthis in in your line of work and
as many conversations andpeople that you talk to and
mentor and support, a lot ofpeople are adults and they're
just now starting to process anykind of things that happened
when they were younger and soand how it affects them today.
You know, and so you're not.
(08:22):
It's not like we definitelyshould be having these
conversations with our teens andour youth and all kinds of
stuff, but most of the time it'sadults.
They're just now saying like,hey, I actually like, looking
back, that was not OK.
But then they go and they talkto someone and says like oh, I
mean it happened 20 years ago,like why are you making it a big
deal?
And that, like, both things canbe true.
Piet Van Waarde (08:38):
You know another example I um let me can
I just build on that too,because I think that one of the
reasons why it's so important isbecause that's what's true,
right.
So to to kind of sugarcoat itand say well, that's not really
(09:03):
that big a deal, it happened along, long time ago.
That is going to mean thatyou're going to perpetuate all
the coping mechanisms that mayhave served you well growing up,
but they're not going to serveyou well in your adulthood, and
so facing the truth about whatyou experienced actually sets
you up for success, and thatgoes back to what you were
saying.
It all boils down to sayingthis was how it was and I can
still love them.
Yeah, the only way you're goingto get to the truth is if
you're able to say both yes andthat it's so necessary.
Shaina Zavala (09:26):
And what's really interesting about it is that
that's an uncomfortable place.
It's uncomfortable for you,like the person doing it, and
it's uncomfortable for everybodyaround you and it's.
I think that's probably why weavoid it.
Right, right and it's, I thinkthat's probably why we avoid it,
right, right, and I think, andalso we're not wired that way.
Naturally, our defaultprogramming is to just want is
two choices, and so you know,it's something that, like I said
(09:47):
, it gets really.
You can say this all day byyourself, but it's when you
bring other people in, and sothat's when it usually things
get shut down.
Another example that comes tomind is kind of sometimes like
we talked about in like themedical sense For me, I had
story my daughter really earlyand I was so excited that she
(10:09):
was here, I was so excited to bea mom.
You know, she was alive.
We made it through it.
We had a lot of complications.
I loved that I was in there andI was devastated at the
circumstances in which ithappened and the amount of
people that were like, well, atleast she's blah, blah, blah.
Well, you know, just focus on,and I'm like I am grieving the
(10:29):
loss of something major.
And so, again, I think,allowing people to be able to
say and recognize andrecognizing for other people and
validating like that's true,that is true and this is true.
Piet Van Waarde (10:46):
You know what?
I think we're going to talkabout this medical piece more,
so let's do that in our nextepisode.
Man I am so excited about today my good
friend Shana, who I have notseen for a year.
Shaina Zavala (00:08):
Way too long.
Piet Van Waarde (00:10):
Has graciously decided that she would like to
be filmed.
Shaina Zavala (00:15):
I don't know if that's an accurate way of
putting that, but I'm so excitedto have a conversation with you
because you're the best.
Piet Van Waarde (00:22):
I'm excited to have it with you.
And so, before we got on theair, we were talking about like,
well, what should we talk about?
We have so many things, and youcame up with this suggestion
and I've now been thinking aboutit for several days and I love
the conversation, and so I'llset it up this way and then feel
free to interject.
So most of the things thatwe're experiencing in the world
(00:43):
today, it doesn't matter whatyou're talking about, it doesn't
matter if it's religion,politics, relationships, you
know, just whatever is happeningin the world.
There seems to be this way ofthinking that is, either it's
this or it's this, and either ormindset.
And one of the things that yousuggested is, like, one of the
things you're talking about withpeople is hey, can we not talk
(01:06):
about the genius of the end?
Yeah, like, could it be thatthere are two things that are
true at the same time, thingsthat may even seem contradictory
?
So I'd like you to kind of playit out in some some of the ways
that you've been talking topeople about.
Shaina Zavala (01:20):
Yeah, so I feel like the number one thing is you
know I, you know me, I call itcounseling in the wild, um, but
as I'm kind of talking, that'swhat it feels like the trenches
sometimes, but as I'm kind oftalking to people and helping
them navigate just differentthings I'm not even talking
about like major traumas causethat's its own thing but just
like the everyday things thathappen in life to everybody, I'm
realizing that the averageperson out there does not have,
(01:43):
in my opinion, you know, reallystrong tools and resources and
coping skills to be able to justnavigate the stuff that happens
around them.
And one of the I would sayprobably the top thing that I'm
seeing is people feel like it'salways a this or that choice.
Right, we live in the or, and Ialso think like our society
reinforces that.
So you, you like dogs or youlike cats, like, right, you know
(02:06):
you're the cat lady, you're thedog person, but you're not both
.
You know, and the reality isthat almost everything in life
is gray, it's nuanced, it'salmost never black and white.
And I I feel really passionatethat if people can learn how to
use literally the word and andfind the genius in that, that it
will radically change your life, and I think like that's a bold
(02:27):
claim to say radical, but I Imean it because I think if
people can grasp how to use, andthat it will help them reframe
and reshape the way they processthings, the way that they
bounce back from things, and soI mean literally, like you said,
like you can we'll use you foran example you can get a medical
diagnosis that is devastatingand hope can be on the horizon.
(02:52):
Those things don't feel likethey go together, but they can
be true, and it doesn't alwayshave to be in a negative way.
It can also be.
You know people you can becontent and happy with where you
are in life.
You can say you know, I likethis job, it pays all my bills,
my bills, and I want more for myfuture and I want to go back to
(03:12):
school.
Multiple things can be true atthe same time, and so I just my
hope is that people will walkaway and be like, oh, it doesn't
have to be this or that,there's another option.
Piet Van Waarde (03:21):
And one of the things I love about it and it's
been something I've beenthinking about is because it
opens up the opportunity scale.
So, like a lot of times, ifyou're thinking in either or it
means that your perspective isabout this big, it's like I
either got to do this or I gotto do this.
But if you can add the and it'slike, oh, wait a minute, there
(03:44):
are way more possibilities forme than I thought initially
possible.
So I love the idea of using andin any number of places.
So let me just kind of play offwhat you just said regarding
health and fitness.
So, in this journey that I'vebeen on, there are all these
people who talk about everythingboils down to diet yeah, you
(04:06):
got to eat these things, youcan't eat other things you got
to worry about to diet.
Yeah, you got to eat thesethings, you can't eat other
things.
You got to worry about yourdiet.
And then there are other peoplewho say, well, no, it's really
about your exercise, yourlifestyle, paying attention to
what your doctor says, and it'slike well, why does it have to
be an either?
Or why can't we just say youknow what it's about diet and
exercise, and the two reallywork together and I think
(04:32):
there's something about likecreating this very narrow thing
that gains, clicks.
It gains, likes it createsconflict.
But I think the real like youwere talking about how it works
in the real world is you got todo both.
Shaina Zavala (04:43):
Yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (04:43):
And there's so many ways in which that's
applicable.
Shaina Zavala (04:45):
Yeah, or think about all these like fad diets
that are going around right now.
Right, you know it's or um 75hard or anything, and I'm not
knocking any of those things ifyou do them, Um, but it's this
extreme.
I don't want to upset anyone,I'm joking, Um, but it's this
extreme thing that you're doingin this extreme way and it's
this or your or failure.
You know, that's kind of themindset you have when you go
(05:05):
into it and, again, that's notsustainable, it's not realistic.
And so, again, helping peopleto be able to understand, like
and I think something you justsaid can do this, that's just
like, I don't know.
It feels like it gives mealmost like a cool, calm and
(05:30):
collected, Like I don't have toaccept.
Imagine being in like abusiness negotiation and they
give you something and you'relike accept it, decline it,
negotiate it Like.
Piet Van Waarde (05:39):
you know what I ?
Shaina Zavala (05:39):
mean Like you, just it gives you a power.
There's power in that.
Piet Van Waarde (05:43):
Right, I love that.
Well, let's use a couple ofexamples.
So where, like when you werethinking about this initially
were, were there some thingsspecifically where you're like
counseling in the wild, whereyou're talking to people and
you're like, no, it doesn't haveto be an either or it's an end?
Did you have like some specificthings in mind where you did
that?
How much time do you have?
Shaina Zavala (06:03):
No, yes, absolutely, and I think for me,
um, the the first one that comesto mind is there are a lot of
people everybody has, you know,family dysfunction is a big one
and I am a I call a chaos kid.
I come from extreme dysfunctionin the family and so when I'm
helping people and we're talkingabout those things, the
(06:24):
understanding that multiplethings can be true.
So I'll give you an example Ilove my parents.
My parents did the best theycould and they failed me.
Being able to sit in that andbeing able to process that and
feel the feels and feelvalidated in that, that has
helped me be able to have abetter, stronger, real
(06:44):
relationship with my parents andwe've walked through it and all
of these things.
But if there's so many peopleout there that they grew up with
, you know, teen parents oralcoholic parents, or you know
parents that were addicts ofsome sort, a lot of the time our
society, like that, getsdiminished and so they don't
ever get to process that becausethey're like, well, I can't
hold them to that path, whatthey did in the past, or well, I
(07:04):
love them.
Or my mom, you know, is one ofmy favorite people and I love
her, you know, and so they don'tfeel like they can actually
feel those feelings, and so Ithink maybe in the Christian
sorry to starting, but I thinkin the Christian community
particularly like that example.
Piet Van Waarde (07:19):
It's like the scripture gets thrown out honor
your father and mother, right.
So at that point you feel like,well, I have to be kind and
gracious, no matter what theywere, and I have to kind of deny
the fact that they wereimperfect and in some cases even
cruel.
I can't talk about that becauseI was supposed to honor yes.
Shaina Zavala (07:38):
Or because I'm, or even just the most basic,
because I'm Christian now and Ican't.
I need to let go of it, and youwould be so surprised sometimes
, in the name of trying to speakwisdom, the amount of dumb
stuff that comes out of people'smouths.
I'm just like I don't think youmeant that the way that you said
that, but that's not helpful.
You know what I mean and so,yeah, just being able to say
(08:00):
that still happened and there'sstill feelings, you know,
attached to that.
And then you know, you knowthis in in your line of work and
as many conversations andpeople that you talk to and
mentor and support, a lot ofpeople are adults and they're
just now starting to process anykind of things that happened
when they were younger and soand how it affects them today.
You know, and so you're not.
(08:22):
It's not like we definitelyshould be having these
conversations with our teens andour youth and all kinds of
stuff, but most of the time it'sadults.
They're just now saying like,hey, I actually like, looking
back, that was not OK.
But then they go and they talkto someone and says like oh, I
mean it happened 20 years ago,like why are you making it a big
deal?
And that, like, both things canbe true.
Piet Van Waarde (08:38):
You know another example I um let me can
I just build on that too,because I think that one of the
reasons why it's so important isbecause that's what's true,
right.
So to to kind of sugarcoat itand say well, that's not really
(09:03):
that big a deal, it happened along, long time ago.
That is going to mean thatyou're going to perpetuate all
the coping mechanisms that mayhave served you well growing up,
but they're not going to serveyou well in your adulthood, and
so facing the truth about whatyou experienced actually sets
you up for success, and thatgoes back to what you were
saying.
It all boils down to sayingthis was how it was and I can
still love them.
Yeah, the only way you're goingto get to the truth is if
you're able to say both yes andthat it's so necessary.
Shaina Zavala (09:26):
And what's really interesting about it is that
that's an uncomfortable place.
It's uncomfortable for you,like the person doing it, and
it's uncomfortable for everybodyaround you and it's.
I think that's probably why weavoid it.
Right, right and it's, I thinkthat's probably why we avoid it,
right, right, and I think, andalso we're not wired that way.
Naturally, our defaultprogramming is to just want is
two choices, and so you know,it's something that, like I said
(09:47):
, it gets really.
You can say this all day byyourself, but it's when you
bring other people in, and sothat's when it usually things
get shut down.
Another example that comes tomind is kind of sometimes like
we talked about in like themedical sense For me, I had
story my daughter really earlyand I was so excited that she
(10:09):
was here, I was so excited to bea mom.
You know, she was alive.
We made it through it.
We had a lot of complications.
I loved that I was in there andI was devastated at the
circumstances in which ithappened and the amount of
people that were like, well, atleast she's blah, blah, blah.
Well, you know, just focus on,and I'm like I am grieving the
(10:29):
loss of something major.
And so, again, I think,allowing people to be able to
say and recognize andrecognizing for other people and
validating like that's true,that is true and this is true.
Piet Van Waarde (10:46):
You know what?
I think we're going to talkabout this medical piece more,
so let's do that in our nextepisode.
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