July 31, 2025 • 10 mins
**Join us for the conclusion of our summer series of conversations with Shaina and Piet about the genius of the "and." We have enjoyed sharing this 4-part discussion with you AND getting ready for the launch of season 4 of Sidewalk Conversations in just a few weeks! If you enjoy these episodes and want to check out all of the things Piet is working on, head on over to the Piet Van Waarde channel on Youtube.**
Today, we explore the tension in church services between reaching believers and non-believers, discussing how the "power of AND" creates inclusive experiences that meet everyone where they are on their spiritual journey.
• Challenging the false dichotomy that forces church leaders to choose between ministering to Christians or reaching newcomers
• Using secular music and pop culture references to illustrate gospel truths while maintaining theological integrity
• Examining the Moana song "I've crossed the horizon to find you" as a powerful metaphor for Jesus's love
• Considering whether it's acceptable to occasionally alienate the "99" to effectively reach the "1" who is seeking
• Designing messages that start with the questions of the unconvinced while addressing deeper issues believers might not have resolved
• Recognizing how Jesus himself embodied the "AND" throughout his ministry and even on the cross
• Implementing the power of "AND" in daily life to improve mental health and create healthier perspectives
Start incorporating the genius of the word "AND" in your vocabulary today and see how it transforms your approach to faith, leadership, and everyday challenges.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waarde (00:00):
So I have loved this conversation, but now I
want to talk about a world thatboth of us are quite familiar
with, and that is the world ofchurch life, and particularly as
it relates to the mission, thevision, the emphasis that comes
in the life of a church.
So for those, let's say, who areactive in ministry or church
(00:23):
life, or Christians, and theylook at church services and
they're like, how do they getthat figured out?
One of the tensions that isoften very much a part of this
whole experience is like whenyou're planning a service so
both of us have had experienceon church staffs and part of
planning services is there'sthis tension between are we
(00:50):
speaking to people who are notyet convinced that this is the
truth, like they just show up atchurch, maybe they're in a life
crisis and not really sure ifthey believe or are we speaking
to people who are alreadyconvinced, that are trying to
figure out how to grow in theirfaith?
And a lot of the conversationthat happens in church world is
that you have to pick againeither or.
And I'm curious, as you wereinvolved and I'll talk a little
(01:13):
bit about my experience too howdid you bring it to the end?
Shaina Zavala (01:19):
That's a great question.
It's funny that you shouldbring that up because we had
these really extensive creativemeetings.
They would last all day and wehave a bunch of people with
different backgrounds.
So you've got like your youknow person who's super
evangelical.
You've got almost like you knowthis, like authoritative person
.
You know all these differentpersonalities and one of the
things for me is again, I think,just due to who I am as a
(01:43):
person and just my mindset, Ilive in the and right, so like
we're going to hit these peopleand we're going to hit these
people and I think of like thebig services, like Easter,
christmas, where you know you'regoing to get this influx.
And one of the fights that wewould always have was
overpicking music selections andyou know some people a lot of
people may not agree with this,but I was always a really big
(02:07):
fan of taking, sometimes youknow, the secular music or music
that was really popular forpeople that they not I don't
want to say trending, you know,but just music that was relevant
to the time or situations orthings that are familiar, and
taking that and using that tokind of illustrate the gospel
and using that so that peoplecould feel something familiar
(02:31):
with something that maybe theydidn't know, and that was
something that was always anattention point of you can't do
that, you can't mix secular andthis.
You can't do those things, andI'm like you.
Can, you know, with the powerof the and, and we can use that
to be able to minister to peoplewho are on different parts of
the Christian journey, and sohow would you sorry?
Piet Van Waarde (02:54):
so how would you deal with the critique of
those that would say, oh, butyou can't mix the sacred and
secular.
It's like this is a sacredplace, you're kind of
infiltrating with the secular,that's just.
That's irreverent.
Shaina Zavala (03:07):
That's not allowed.
That brings me to our next one,which is the power of why no,
no, but first.
First, you just say like, well,why not?
You know, but at the most baselevel you know, I really tried
to we would go line by line forthe lyrics.
We would go line by line,figure out you know why.
How does this apply?
How can this be used?
Is there any part of this thatyou know?
(03:27):
I'm not a fan of it.
It makes me cringe when peoplechange lyrics.
I hate that.
Um, so either the whole songworks or it doesn't.
But you know we would gothrough, we'd find scriptures
that supported the differentthings.
Um, I'll never forget, we did aproject where we used, uh, the,
we did the at the movies.
You know what I mean.
It was like a big thing in thesummer and you kind of play
clips of a movie and we did themovie Moana, and there's a part
(03:48):
of the movie where she saysshe's talking to another
character, but the song shesings says I've crossed the
horizon to find you.
I know your name, and so when Idid the pitch or something like
that, even though there werepeople on my own team that were
like you cannot do this.
Fire and brimstone, you can'tdo it.
And I'm like who do you knowwho says that?
(04:08):
And there's someone who's goingto come in, or there's someone
who's already on the journey,who they're going to be.
Like that's my Jesus, rightthere.
You know what I mean.
So using something like that,that's a great, tangible example
of the.
And A person who was fartheralong on the journey was like
that's the Jesus I know, theJesus who will cross the horizon
for me, the Jesus who knowsevery single person's name in
this room.
So that person, we're hittingthat need.
(04:29):
But then there's also somebodycoming in who's like I've seen
this movie.
That's a billion dollar moviebox offices across the world.
It's familiar, it's safe, I'mgoing to come in.
I never thought to see it thatway and now I have a better
understanding of how deep andhow far and how much Jesus loves
me.
Piet Van Waarde (04:45):
You know, and I think that there's something to
be said too, and this wassomething that we kind of had to
circle back.
So this was before I came andworked at the same church that
you did.
So when we were doing thesekinds of conversations, one of
the questions we would ask is isit okay to offend someone in
this and if so, who Right?
(05:08):
So, like, when you think aboutthe whole idea of Jesus leaving
the 99 and going after the lostone, you could almost interpret
that to say Jesus was willing tooffend the 99 in order to reach
the one.
And so you know what are thepractical implications of that
in a service, like, is it OK forme to create something with art
(05:33):
that is edgy and notnecessarily going to speak
meaningfully to a person who'sfully devoted?
In fact, I may even alienatethem, but is it okay to alienate
them for the sake of the onethat's there that doesn't know?
Shaina Zavala (05:50):
And I mean that is probably a question that
could be raised till the end oftime, right?
Nobody knows.
If someone had the answer tothat, right, we wouldn't be
talking about this.
But yeah, I think that goes,that goes to, but again, what?
What my main takeaway is this isthat if regular, everyday
people were walking around andthey're thinking of, and I can
(06:10):
go to church and get what I need, and somebody who doesn't know
Jesus like I know him is goingto be here, right, like if we
could get again.
I want to encourage my friendsand my family and strangers If
we just started walking around.
I think that would increase alevel of compassion.
I think it would increase alevel of just awareness for your
neighbors and the people aroundyou.
(06:32):
And why would I be offendedthat somebody else might need
that?
That's just like an absurdthing to think about.
And I think a lot of peoplespecifically in the church
setting they're some of the mostoffended people and it's like,
okay, you didn't get somethingfrom that, but you might take
away something else.
And what I love, I have seen alot of really modern day
(06:53):
preachers, but a lot ofpreachers really good preachers.
They'll say you know noteverything in this message is
for you, and sometimes they'llkind of say that at the
beginning.
I think I've even heard you saythat before.
It's just like you're going totake away people, are going to
take away different nuggets, andI think that's how, as leaders,
we approach.
The end is that you should be,in my opinion, you should be
designing your message knowingthat you have a diverse audience
(07:15):
.
You should be designing theexamples that you use, the
illustrations that you use.
You should be thinking of everyaspect, the diversity in your
audience, the ages, stages,seasons, all of those things,
and you should be including thatwhen you're designing your
services.
Piet Van Waarde (07:28):
And I think that's again going back to the
basic thing that we've beentalking about all along.
The genius of the end is thatyou can take all of that into
account when you are planning aservice or you're planning a
marketing strategy or anythingthat we're talking about
university setting.
We want to be able to say let'sthink through the genius of the
(07:48):
end in all of these ways,because it gives us an
opportunity to reach more people.
Shaina Zavala (07:52):
Yeah, like how did you utilize that when you
were putting together messages,or did you even?
Piet Van Waarde (07:57):
Yeah, yeah.
So I would say that the key forme was to start with the person
who was probably leastconvinced, and what I found was
that when I would start that way, there were already some people
who would probably categorizethemselves as convinced that
didn't know why they werebelieving what they were
(08:20):
believing, and so when I wasstarting that way, they thought,
oh, this is for them, and thenall of a sudden halfway through
they're like, hey, that was aquestion I had too, and so I
think sometimes it's about likethe biggest question I think
most believers have and I knowthis is for probably another
conversation, but I think mostpeople have the question what
(08:41):
does faith look like lived outin my everyday life?
So I can hold to certain values,certain ideas, but I need to
know how is that going to relateand affect my daily life?
And I think, if that's whereyou live, in whatever part of
the service you're talking aboutmusic, drama, readings, message
that is going to help peopleregardless of where they are.
(09:05):
And again, I think that's partof like thinking through how can
I include everybody in this?
Shaina Zavala (09:09):
talk.
Yeah, I'm utterly convincedthat Jesus lived in the end Like
this, woman is a possibleprostitute and I love her.
You know what I mean.
Like these people believe youknow the Pharisees, I believe
you know.
Maybe they believe that they'redoing what's right and I'm
(09:32):
going to flip this table.
Piet Van Waarde (09:33):
Do you know what I mean?
Well, and even on the cross,when you think about it, these
people that killed him, he didnot take an either or position
on the cross.
When you think about it, thesepeople that killed him, he did
not take an either or positionon the cross either.
He said forgive them, for theydo not know.
Father, forgive them, for theydo not know what they do.
Shaina Zavala (09:49):
If that's not an and I don't know what is.
And so, again, going back tothe initial question and the
whole point of this entireconversation, we're on like part
five now or so, but the wholepoint of this is that if
everyday people can walk out ofthis and say I'm going to start
to apply the and step one in myfaith right, I can be in a
really bad place and I canbelieve that God is not done
(10:11):
with my story.
As a leader, I can structurethis service for these people
and these people you know, and Ithink that that'll just start
trickling into your regular lifeand I think we're going to have
happier, healthier, stronger,you know, capable adults that
are not having mental healthcrises all the time, if they can
(10:32):
just start implementing thisone small thing.
But there's so much power andjust the genius of literally the
word and in your vocabulary.
Piet Van Waarde (10:41):
I love it.
Let's end there.
So I have loved this conversation, but now I
want to talk about a world thatboth of us are quite familiar
with, and that is the world ofchurch life, and particularly as
it relates to the mission, thevision, the emphasis that comes
in the life of a church.
So for those, let's say, who areactive in ministry or church
(00:23):
life, or Christians, and theylook at church services and
they're like, how do they getthat figured out?
One of the tensions that isoften very much a part of this
whole experience is like whenyou're planning a service so
both of us have had experienceon church staffs and part of
planning services is there'sthis tension between are we
(00:50):
speaking to people who are notyet convinced that this is the
truth, like they just show up atchurch, maybe they're in a life
crisis and not really sure ifthey believe or are we speaking
to people who are alreadyconvinced, that are trying to
figure out how to grow in theirfaith?
And a lot of the conversationthat happens in church world is
that you have to pick againeither or.
And I'm curious, as you wereinvolved and I'll talk a little
(01:13):
bit about my experience too howdid you bring it to the end?
Shaina Zavala (01:19):
That's a great question.
It's funny that you shouldbring that up because we had
these really extensive creativemeetings.
They would last all day and wehave a bunch of people with
different backgrounds.
So you've got like your youknow person who's super
evangelical.
You've got almost like you knowthis, like authoritative person
.
You know all these differentpersonalities and one of the
things for me is again, I think,just due to who I am as a
(01:43):
person and just my mindset, Ilive in the and right, so like
we're going to hit these peopleand we're going to hit these
people and I think of like thebig services, like Easter,
christmas, where you know you'regoing to get this influx.
And one of the fights that wewould always have was
overpicking music selections andyou know some people a lot of
people may not agree with this,but I was always a really big
(02:07):
fan of taking, sometimes youknow, the secular music or music
that was really popular forpeople that they not I don't
want to say trending, you know,but just music that was relevant
to the time or situations orthings that are familiar, and
taking that and using that tokind of illustrate the gospel
and using that so that peoplecould feel something familiar
(02:31):
with something that maybe theydidn't know, and that was
something that was always anattention point of you can't do
that, you can't mix secular andthis.
You can't do those things, andI'm like you.
Can, you know, with the powerof the and, and we can use that
to be able to minister to peoplewho are on different parts of
the Christian journey, and sohow would you sorry?
Piet Van Waarde (02:54):
so how would you deal with the critique of
those that would say, oh, butyou can't mix the sacred and
secular.
It's like this is a sacredplace, you're kind of
infiltrating with the secular,that's just.
That's irreverent.
Shaina Zavala (03:07):
That's not allowed.
That brings me to our next one,which is the power of why no,
no, but first.
First, you just say like, well,why not?
You know, but at the most baselevel you know, I really tried
to we would go line by line forthe lyrics.
We would go line by line,figure out you know why.
How does this apply?
How can this be used?
Is there any part of this thatyou know?
(03:27):
I'm not a fan of it.
It makes me cringe when peoplechange lyrics.
I hate that.
Um, so either the whole songworks or it doesn't.
But you know we would gothrough, we'd find scriptures
that supported the differentthings.
Um, I'll never forget, we did aproject where we used, uh, the,
we did the at the movies.
You know what I mean.
It was like a big thing in thesummer and you kind of play
clips of a movie and we did themovie Moana, and there's a part
(03:48):
of the movie where she saysshe's talking to another
character, but the song shesings says I've crossed the
horizon to find you.
I know your name, and so when Idid the pitch or something like
that, even though there werepeople on my own team that were
like you cannot do this.
Fire and brimstone, you can'tdo it.
And I'm like who do you knowwho says that?
(04:08):
And there's someone who's goingto come in, or there's someone
who's already on the journey,who they're going to be.
Like that's my Jesus, rightthere.
You know what I mean.
So using something like that,that's a great, tangible example
of the.
And A person who was fartheralong on the journey was like
that's the Jesus I know, theJesus who will cross the horizon
for me, the Jesus who knowsevery single person's name in
this room.
So that person, we're hittingthat need.
(04:29):
But then there's also somebodycoming in who's like I've seen
this movie.
That's a billion dollar moviebox offices across the world.
It's familiar, it's safe, I'mgoing to come in.
I never thought to see it thatway and now I have a better
understanding of how deep andhow far and how much Jesus loves
me.
Piet Van Waarde (04:45):
You know, and I think that there's something to
be said too, and this wassomething that we kind of had to
circle back.
So this was before I came andworked at the same church that
you did.
So when we were doing thesekinds of conversations, one of
the questions we would ask is isit okay to offend someone in
this and if so, who Right?
(05:08):
So, like, when you think aboutthe whole idea of Jesus leaving
the 99 and going after the lostone, you could almost interpret
that to say Jesus was willing tooffend the 99 in order to reach
the one.
And so you know what are thepractical implications of that
in a service, like, is it OK forme to create something with art
(05:33):
that is edgy and notnecessarily going to speak
meaningfully to a person who'sfully devoted?
In fact, I may even alienatethem, but is it okay to alienate
them for the sake of the onethat's there that doesn't know?
Shaina Zavala (05:50):
And I mean that is probably a question that
could be raised till the end oftime, right?
Nobody knows.
If someone had the answer tothat, right, we wouldn't be
talking about this.
But yeah, I think that goes,that goes to, but again, what?
What my main takeaway is this isthat if regular, everyday
people were walking around andthey're thinking of, and I can
(06:10):
go to church and get what I need, and somebody who doesn't know
Jesus like I know him is goingto be here, right, like if we
could get again.
I want to encourage my friendsand my family and strangers If
we just started walking around.
I think that would increase alevel of compassion.
I think it would increase alevel of just awareness for your
neighbors and the people aroundyou.
(06:32):
And why would I be offendedthat somebody else might need
that?
That's just like an absurdthing to think about.
And I think a lot of peoplespecifically in the church
setting they're some of the mostoffended people and it's like,
okay, you didn't get somethingfrom that, but you might take
away something else.
And what I love, I have seen alot of really modern day
(06:53):
preachers, but a lot ofpreachers really good preachers.
They'll say you know noteverything in this message is
for you, and sometimes they'llkind of say that at the
beginning.
I think I've even heard you saythat before.
It's just like you're going totake away people, are going to
take away different nuggets, andI think that's how, as leaders,
we approach.
The end is that you should be,in my opinion, you should be
designing your message knowingthat you have a diverse audience
(07:15):
.
You should be designing theexamples that you use, the
illustrations that you use.
You should be thinking of everyaspect, the diversity in your
audience, the ages, stages,seasons, all of those things,
and you should be including thatwhen you're designing your
services.
Piet Van Waarde (07:28):
And I think that's again going back to the
basic thing that we've beentalking about all along.
The genius of the end is thatyou can take all of that into
account when you are planning aservice or you're planning a
marketing strategy or anythingthat we're talking about
university setting.
We want to be able to say let'sthink through the genius of the
(07:48):
end in all of these ways,because it gives us an
opportunity to reach more people.
Shaina Zavala (07:52):
Yeah, like how did you utilize that when you
were putting together messages,or did you even?
Piet Van Waarde (07:57):
Yeah, yeah.
So I would say that the key forme was to start with the person
who was probably leastconvinced, and what I found was
that when I would start that way, there were already some people
who would probably categorizethemselves as convinced that
didn't know why they werebelieving what they were
(08:20):
believing, and so when I wasstarting that way, they thought,
oh, this is for them, and thenall of a sudden halfway through
they're like, hey, that was aquestion I had too, and so I
think sometimes it's about likethe biggest question I think
most believers have and I knowthis is for probably another
conversation, but I think mostpeople have the question what
(08:41):
does faith look like lived outin my everyday life?
So I can hold to certain values,certain ideas, but I need to
know how is that going to relateand affect my daily life?
And I think, if that's whereyou live, in whatever part of
the service you're talking aboutmusic, drama, readings, message
that is going to help peopleregardless of where they are.
(09:05):
And again, I think that's partof like thinking through how can
I include everybody in this?
Shaina Zavala (09:09):
talk.
Yeah, I'm utterly convincedthat Jesus lived in the end Like
this, woman is a possibleprostitute and I love her.
You know what I mean.
Like these people believe youknow the Pharisees, I believe
you know.
Maybe they believe that they'redoing what's right and I'm
(09:32):
going to flip this table.
Piet Van Waarde (09:33):
Do you know what I mean?
Well, and even on the cross,when you think about it, these
people that killed him, he didnot take an either or position
on the cross.
When you think about it, thesepeople that killed him, he did
not take an either or positionon the cross either.
He said forgive them, for theydo not know.
Father, forgive them, for theydo not know what they do.
Shaina Zavala (09:49):
If that's not an and I don't know what is.
And so, again, going back tothe initial question and the
whole point of this entireconversation, we're on like part
five now or so, but the wholepoint of this is that if
everyday people can walk out ofthis and say I'm going to start
to apply the and step one in myfaith right, I can be in a
really bad place and I canbelieve that God is not done
(10:11):
with my story.
As a leader, I can structurethis service for these people
and these people you know, and Ithink that that'll just start
trickling into your regular lifeand I think we're going to have
happier, healthier, stronger,you know, capable adults that
are not having mental healthcrises all the time, if they can
(10:32):
just start implementing thisone small thing.
But there's so much power andjust the genius of literally the
word and in your vocabulary.
Piet Van Waarde (10:41):
I love it.
Let's end there.
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