September 26, 2025 ⢠44 mins
đď¸ Blowing Up the Cost of College: A Conversation w/ Dr. John ComerfordÂ
What if everything you thought you knew about the cost of college was wrong? In this weekâs episode of the Significant Coaching Podcast, Matt Rogers sits down with Dr. John Comerford, President of Otterbein University, for a powerful two-part conversation that challenges assumptions about higher education and affordability.
Dr. Comerford is on a mission to make college accessible to everyday familiesâhelping students graduate without a mountain of debt. In Part 1, he speaks candidly about tuition, value, and why families shouldnât dismiss private schools before exploring what they truly offer. His honesty and conviction shine through as he addresses the tough questions head-on.
If youâre a parent, educator, or coach, this episode will open your eyes to options you may not have consideredâand may just reshape how you think about sending your son or daughter to college.
đ For more resources, visit CoachMattRogers.com
.
Learn more and connect with Matt Rogers here: https://linktr.ee/coachmattrogers
Listen on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, iHeartRadio, and all your favorite podcast platforms.
Did you like what you heard and want more?
New Podcasts every week. Remember to subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You see the NCAA with the voteof its institutions doing things
(00:05):
like allowing for immediatetransfer and eligibility.
We know Matt.
That when a student transfersfrom school to school, their
chances of graduating with abachelor's degree are cut in
half.
Yeah.
And yet the NCAA division three,my peers voted that in 95% to
5%, and I was in the 5% voting.
No, that's not a division threething to do.
(00:27):
We got that wrong.
We put our students last.
Welcome back to the SignificantCoaching Podcast.
I'm your host Matt Rogers.
We have a very special two partepisode this week.
I open the show with a clip thatcaptures exactly why I see this
(00:50):
week's guest.
As a true higher educationsuperhero because of his
conviction to helping familiesmake college affordable and
ensuring students have theopportunity to graduate without
being buried under a mountain ofdebt.
Today's guest is Dr.
John Erford, president ofOtterbine University in
Westerville, Ohio.
(01:11):
I was blessed to both attendcollege and then spend nearly 20
years working at the NCAADivision three and Division two
Levels and the NAI level.
That experience fuels my missionto make sure every parent and
student understands just howmany outstanding choices exist
beyond their local stateschools.
(01:32):
As you'll hear, I askedPresident Comerford some
difficult big picture questionsand he never backed down.
He never gave an easy outanswer.
He spoke from the heart, and Ibelieve that's the same way he
lives his life and leads hiscommunity.
If you're a parent or a highschool educator, you're in for a
treat.
(01:52):
Dr.
Erford is about to challenge andblow up some of the things you
may assume you know about highereducation and tuition costs.
Things that too often discourageeveryday families from even
considering private colleges.
I learned a ton from thisconversation, and I know you
will too.
It's not only educational, butit was a lot of fun.
(02:13):
For more information about me,along with my coaching and
recruiting books, classes, andresources, and speaking
opportunities.
Please visit coach mattrogers.com and if you enjoy this
conversation, please hit thatsubscribe button.
I can't tell you enough.
It's free.
It costs you nothing, but itdoes help me keep bringing you
(02:34):
transformational conversationswith people who share the truths
about college, sports, andeducation.
Without further ado, here's partone of my conversation with Dr.
John Erford.
Dr.
Comfor, so excited to have youon the podcast.
Thanks for being on the showtoday.
Well, thanks for having me.
I'm honored to be invited,especially by way of Rich
(02:56):
Dunsworth and Jim Troja.
Good people, really good people,and they, they've spoken highly
of you.
I want to jump in, if you don'tmind.
I want to kind of quote you alittle bit from what I've, I've
read you said that you've saidthat Otter BeIN's leadership is
meant to be different, specialand worthy of emulation.
I love that.
I think every college anduniversity should be striving
(03:19):
for emulation from their peers.
What does that look like inpractice when you're leading a
campus community?
So the primary thing I'm talkingabout when I say something like
that is the rot in the heart ofAmerican higher education is
elitism.
We all want 30 a CT kids fromsuburban high schools and to be
(03:41):
in the top whatever, top 10ranking, whatever stupid
magazine comes along.
This lay leads us to do thingsthat are bad for students, bad
for institutions, and bad forsociety.
And so if you looked me up,Matt, you saw I was president of
Blackburn College in Illinoislast a work college unabashedly
serving a majority Pell eligiblestudent population, given kids a
(04:02):
chance that wouldn't have achance anywhere else.
And Otterbein is a heart of thecurve.
We serve rich kids, we servepoor kids, we serve local kids,
we serve international kids, andI shouldn't call them kids, but
we have to as charities.
Open the door wider to higher edand not measure ourselves by how
many doors we close, right?
(04:24):
How do we do that when we haveto keep the doors open and, and,
and feed the kids and pay thewater bill?
How do we do that the right way?
So those, those families thatdon't have 25,000 a year saved,
how do we give them thatopportunity to go to an
otterbine and not, not just theyhave to settle for the local
community college?
(04:46):
Yeah, so this is actually, it'snot just a values thing.
It's not just a, like it's theright thing to do thing.
It is for a place likeOtterbine, a business
imperative.
It works in our business model.
And here's the secret sauce, andevery president in the country
should totally copy this.
If you take the Pell Grant.
(05:07):
If you take, at least in Ohiohere, the Ohio College
Opportunity Grant, but everystate has some need-based grant
that matches with the Pell,right?
Sure.
If you get some SGOG dollars andthings like that in there, I'm
getting for a Pell eligible zeroa FC student,$14,000 a year in
revenue.
My typical net revenue perstudent is like 15 or 16.
(05:31):
It's not meaningfully different.
Right, and so I can put adeserving low income student
into a seat that, given thedemographics would probably
otherwise be empty, get realrevenue for it and do the right
thing.
This isn't just a give it awayfor free'cause it's the right
thing to do.
It's been the key to the growththat we've had.
(05:52):
All right, so that helps yourlower class families, the
families that are making under60,000 a year, typically 50,000
a year.
What do we do?
What do we do for those middleclass families that are busting
their tail?
Mom and dad are both working.
They're making 120, 130,000 ayear with two parents, and
they're looking at a price tagof 20 grand a year and going, we
(06:14):
just can't do it.
We, you know, where, where do wefind that extra$1,200 a month to
send our kid to a good college?
How do we help that family?
Yeah, so the donut hole, and Idon't have a magic thing there.
It's, I I talk a lot about highincome students.
They're fine.
Yeah.
Pell eligible students.
We found a way to make it workfor Pell eligible students.
It's the students between there.
(06:34):
Yeah.
That it does get difficult.
There's no way around it.
I, I would implore all of us tothink about our pricing models.
We have a high tuition, highdiscount model like most other
schools have.
Even now, public universitiesare having these, these high
discount rates, and so thesticker price tends to scare
these families away.
(06:55):
If you looked at Otter buyingsticker price, you're gonna find
34, 30$4,000 a year, and thosefamilies especially gonna go
Uhuh.
And so we have seen the marketgrow.
For public institutions becausetheir sticker price appears more
affordable.
Right?
The reality is if we can atleast get'em to look, then we're
often as affordable, if not moreaffordable than the public.
(07:18):
It's about doing a better job,Matt, of.
Helping students find theirmatch.
And too often we don't do a goodjob of articulating the
finances, articulatingdistinctiveness in the
institution.
Why is Otterbein different thanOhio State University?
And there's a thousand reasonswhy Ohio State's Great.
So are we, but we're different.
Yeah.
And helping them find thatmatch.
(07:40):
Well, I know how hard you'reworking at it and and I love
that about you and I love thatmessaging.
'cause I've talked to parents.
I, you know, I've, I can't tellyou how many presidents I've
talked to about that model thatyou're, you're discussing is, we
had to keep up with the Joneses.
I always hear.
You know, you know, everybody inour conference is moving to 50
to 70,000 a year.
We had to move up there orotherwise we don't look like
(08:02):
we're we, we have, we're thesame value proposition.
But parents don't know that.
Parents don't know that you'reincreasing what you're giving
with the raise in tuitionprices.
So how do we explain, how do weexplain that?
To my dad who was a barber for60 years making, you know, five,
(08:23):
$6 a head of hair back in theseventies and eighties when I
was going to school.
How do we explain to him when hesees a$60,000 price tag that
they still should apply?
They should still go through thefinancial aid process, not to
think that it's not tenable.
So what we found, and this isnot perfect, is signaling it
(08:43):
before we get FAFSA data backfrom the federal government.
Too often we hope they apply.
If they apply, well then we waituntil the spring when we get
ICER's data from the feds to beable to package financial aid.
Right?
Right.
And so there's this long periodin which you look super
unaffordable and out of reachand all until suddenly the
financial aid comes in late inthe spring.
(09:05):
And so for a Pell eligiblestudent, we've marketed, we call
it the Opportunity Scholarship,and we just tell'em, if you're
Pell eligible, we've got you fortuition full, tuition covered,
no loans.
Simple, clear, you know, rightaway if you're eligible or not.
And so, boom.
And you can go into a lowerincome school district or go
(09:27):
into a charitable partner andjust say that, and they're,
they're, they light up.
And so it's clear you don't haveto wait and, you know, figure
out 17 things on a, on a FAFSAformula.
For the middle class students,what we've done, we just had a
really good incoming class thisfall.
We're really happy, and part ofthat was we have always packaged
(09:48):
students twice.
We package merit the momentthey're admitted, right?
Because we know GPA, we know aCT Smart Package.
Mary, right away.
Then we wait for ICER's data topackage need.
Well, a year ago, remember theFAFSA debacle where the ICER's
data was delayed and the FAFSAwas delayed forever and
whatever, and that was a realcrisis across the country.
(10:09):
We took that moment to look atour data, and 95% of our
students were getting repackagedwith additional need aid after
the iceers.
And so why not just move thataid up front?
Yeah, and give'em a better lookwith that first package.
And we think that's one of thethings we did that led to a
bigger class coming in is justnot having to wait for months
(10:32):
for the FAFSA data.
If you can communicate thatclearly, upfront, give it a name
like the OpportunityScholarship, at least that's had
some effect here.
I love it.
I'm gonna transition intoathletics a little bit here with
you.
Yeah.
Because I, I, because I think itplays such a big role in a small
campus in terms of you payingthe bills, you being able to
market.
You've been able to get theotter by name out there, not to
(10:53):
mention filling beds and allthose things that we want
athletics to do for us.
Yeah.
The NCAA has made it very clearfor many, many years.
50, 67 years, whatever it's beenthat we can't give athletic
scholarships.
We can't give anything based onyour athleticism to a kid coming
into your school.
Right?
(11:14):
Not in D three.
Yeah, not in D three, but wehave, we have institutions at
the D three level that arefinding a way to make it cheaper
with the same price tag.
Is there a way to do that withyour coaches without breaking
the rules?
Is there a way to say, you knowwhat, we're giving this much
(11:37):
money to that kid with a 3 8 8 38 GPA 1200 SAT.
We're gonna give this kid, thesekids this amount of money and
we're gonna make sure they getthis is affordable for them.
And we're also gonna do thatsame amount for our, we're gonna
make sure our coaches knowthey're going after that type of
kid.
This is the number we want youto go after coaches.
(11:58):
That doesn't mean you can't getother kids in the door, but if
you want to get that bottom lineto here, this is the kid you
have to go over.
Is that being preached from topdown to your coaches so they,
they understand they've gotta goafter that certain individual,
at least maybe 50%, 60% of theirroster.
Does that make sense to you?
It does make sense.
(12:19):
And I would say at least here,part of that is happening.
So we, when we launched theopportunity scholarship for the
Pell eligible students that wecan now cover full tuition with
no loans, that's a game changingfinancial aid package.
Right.
I think our coaches.
And many sports had stoppedrecruiting, say in urban school
districts because they thought,these kids can't afford
(12:41):
Otterbein, so I'm not gonna goand waste their time and waste
my time.
So we went to those coaches,said, Hey, those students can
now afford Otterbein.
If they're PEGON eligible, wegot'em full tuition and you're
not gonna get, even your 30 A CTkid from the Suburban isn't
getting full tuition.
Right.
And so.
You ought to now go into thoseschools and build those
(13:01):
pathways, and that's led to morediversity and those sorts of
things like that.
We have not though Matt gone tocoaches and said, Hey, here's
our sweet spot of revenuestudents, right?
We So as long as they'readmissible, as long as they can
find a way to afford it, givenwhatever package they get based
on their need and their merit,we've not directioned them
(13:23):
within that.
But we have seen a number ofsports.
Open up new recruitingterritories based on the
opportunity scholarship.
I love that as a separate thing.
Matt, can I just go ahead and beblunt and say, this feels like
it's gonna be moot pretty soonbecause NIL is gonna blow up D
three i I I, I mean, there arealready schools in D three that
(13:44):
are packaging NIL.
And so how long are we gonnapretend that we're not packaging
athletic scholarships?
I don't like that.
I'm not a fan of that.
I think that's corrupting, and Idon't wanna be anything like D
one Where athletics is is, iswagging the dog.
I, I, I don't want any part ofthat in D three, but given the
legality of NIL, we're seeing,not at Otterbine yet, but at
(14:08):
other schools, booster groupsget together and go give, let's
just call'em what they are.
Athletic scholarships.
They're just called nis.
And so what does D three meannow?
It's, it is so frustrating forme'cause I was a D three
athlete.
I was a D three head coach.
I was the D three athleticdirector.
I'm now a consultant for smallcolleges across the country and
(14:31):
I loved my experience.
You know, would I have liked togone cheaper?
Would I've loved is somebody,gimme some money.
But I, I, at some point, don'twe have to articulate and define
NIL for what it is.
If, if, if, if, if a company'snot giving me money to use me in
a commercial or put me on, youknow, on their banner or you
(14:54):
know, I'm wearing their shoes,what is NILI, I don't understand
it.
So that's my problem with it andit's, it, we have to be able to
let these kids make a living,make more money if they can do
it.
But how many, how many shootingguards at the division three
level are gonna get money forbeing, for having a Coke bottle
(15:16):
in their hand?
Well, not for having a Cokebottle in their hand, but that's
not a literal requirement.
Right.
Yeah.
I understand.
The Ohio State quarterback canprobably help you sell Coke or
sell cars.
I get that right?
Yeah, sure.
Okay.
You're right.
No D three athlete or very few Dthree athletes will ever
actually help the company sellanything.
(15:37):
But you don't have to do thatpart, right?
Right.
You can just put together an NILdeal and give.
That's right.
Give a student money and that'swhere.
So what does D three mean?
One of the things I've alwayssaid,'cause I've been D three
pretty much my whole career,right?
Westminster College.
Blackburn College, Otterbein.
Like I've been around D threefor 25 years and I loved that.
(15:57):
I would always say, and still dofor now, this is college
athletics as it was meant to be.
Yes.
It's pure amateurism.
It's.
Students who play because theylove their sport and they love
their school and they love theirteammates, we're not paying them
to play.
Right.
And that resonates with people.
This is what it's supposed tobe.
But NIL cuts directly againstthat and it's here.
(16:22):
Is there a way, is there a wayto enforce this?
Or a D three simply can't putany of that money, any of that
NIL money in their financialaid.
Well, it's not in financial aid.
My understanding, and, and Matt,I'm gonna put the caveat, I'm no
lawyer or expert on this stuff,right?
But my understanding is it hasto be an outside group.
(16:43):
Like it's designed to be like acompany, your local Ford dealer,
you know, whatever.
But instead, the outside groupis turning into alumni booster
clubs, right?
That are not controlled by theuniversity.
The university cannot directlyput that money into financial
aid, but you could have abooster group.
And I think this is happening inD three now.
(17:04):
Go to that really great pointguard and say, Hey, I know the,
the college financial aid thingwith you have a$20,000 bill and
we have a$10,000 NIL deal foryou.
So why don't you go to Otterbeinand play point guard.
So it's not technicallyfinancial aid, it's NIL and it's
not from the university, it'sfrom the boosters.
(17:25):
But the line is so fuzzy thatit's meaningless and I think
we're just professionalizing Dthree.
All right.
You talked about Westminster inBlackburn.
I was the head coach andathletic director at Maryville
for many years.
I, I think we, oh, yeah.
I think we had some overlap.
So I coached against thoseschools and I, I can't imagine
for the life of me there everbeing anything like that at any
(17:50):
of those schools.
Yeah.
Where, where, where would thathave come from?
At a black burner in Maryville.
Here's my worry, Matt, is thisis gonna cannibalize what
limited athletic fundraising wehave.
And so instead of a boostergiving to pay, help us pay for
our new bleachers in the That'sright.
They're gonna give to the NILand say, well, I, I helped out
Otterbein'cause I gave to theN-L-N-I-L booster group.
(18:14):
And so there's not, I don'tthink I, there's always more
money to be raised.
Don't get me wrong.
But I it at some point with, foran individual donor, it's a zero
sum game and I gave my 10 grandfor the NIL Booster club as
opposed to my 10 grand for thenew bleachers.
And so I do think we'recompeting with ourselves at the
(18:35):
end of the day.
I agree.
So I'm gonna go back to myinitial question that I did, I
butchered and I didn't ask itvery well.
But let's say that NLI moneycomes to you, okay.
And, and the idea is we're gonnagive you a million dollars and
we want that million dollars tobe divvied up.
(18:57):
Half non-athletes, halfathletes.
Does the NCAA get in your way ifit's going to both?
I think so long.
If the university's distributingthe aid and athletics is a
criteria to the award, we arenot allowed to do it.
If so, yes, I do think that getsin way.
What if, what if it's, what ifit's not?
Because at the end of the day,what does an audit look like?
(19:19):
It's about, is there consistencybetween non-athletes and
athletes?
Am I wrong in that?
That's what the audit is.
But if we had a scholarship fundthat had, so for example, we've,
we, I think it was Blackburn,maybe I, maybe we did this at
Otterbein.
I, I forget which school it was,but we had some scholarship
endowments like from theseventies or something like
(19:39):
that, where it said this is,this is for a student from
whatever county who's a studentathlete, whatever, whatever.
We had to change that languageto take student athlete out.
And put in student leadershipand being a student athlete is
part of student leadership andso they would still qualify, but
you couldn't have any criteriato do with athletics is my
(20:00):
understanding.
Alright, so that's, this getsback to the heart of my point.
All right.
Can we, can we convince theseboosters that we can't promise
you it's gonna go to athletics?
We can't even say it is it'sever gonna go to an athlete.
But why not have the mindsetfrom your admissions and
financial aid, we're gonna worktogether and create some balance
there and help the coaches makesure the kids they're bringing
(20:23):
in are getting it.
Can we do it on the down low oris that still icky?
Oh, that's icky.
I think so what I want is adonor.
If, if Matt and, and I, I, I cantell you've got a million dollar
check, you're ready to write itand you can write to Otterbein.
'cause after this conversation,you're all in.
Right?
And you're, you're gonna say, Iwant it to be for student
(20:43):
financial aid.
Now that million dollars orwhatever, it spins out.
We can use for athletes andnon-athletes alike, right?
But I would feel very, with thecurrent division three rules,
ill at ease about using ATHathletic participation as any
criteria at all.
I wouldn't even wanna look at,well, we want it to make 30% of
(21:04):
our students are athletes.
Let's make at least 30% of themoney should go to athletes.
I don't think you can use thatat all, given the current
structure.
Which is another reason thatyou, Matt, as a donor who wants
to support athletics, might betempted to put that money into
an NIL booster group becausethen it is going to athletics.
Exactly.
And athletes to be, notathletics, but athletes.
(21:25):
Yeah.
And, and I'm trying to come atthis and I'm not a lawyer and
I'll never pretend to be alawyer.
I'm trying to come at this in away where we can do this.
And get the NIL out of, out ofthe way and keep D three the way
it is.
I'm trying to, that's, that's,that's my whole focus with this.
I, I don't wanna lose thatpossibility.
(21:46):
So can we go this route?
Can we just tell everybodythat's a part of recruiting
athletes to say, this is whatwe're looking for.
This is, these are, these arethe things we want Tell your
baseball coach, but tell yourbiology professor.
Tell your, whoever's in chargeof your band, can we say, we're
looking for this and we wannamake sure this sum of money or
(22:07):
this lump of money goes to thosetype of kids.
Sure.
And ath athlete never needs tobe a part of the conversation,
but we're trying to find balanceacross all of those
extracurriculars and youracademic programs.
Yeah.
And if I'm following you, Ithink that's what we do now.
Okay.
And so we publish our, our meritscholarships and our, and our
(22:29):
need based, based on Pell areknown things.
And so a coach would know ifthey find a great point guard
who's also a 4.0 GPA and a 32 aCT, they're getting a
presidential scholarship and afull ride.
They know that.
And so they can I'm sure usethat as they're thinking about
this.
But it's, you know, those arealso the students we're all
(22:50):
chasing.
It's, it's the, it's the raceto, to merit.
Well, it's, it's at the end ofthe day, and this is the
challenge that the NCAAcontinues to face, this face for
years, it's, it comes down toenforcement.
It doesn't matter what rule weput in place or what we all
agree to or what we accept if wecan't enforce it.
(23:11):
Yeah.
But let's.
So I think division three is inthis land between, and, and we
have not, I, I just joined the,I haven't done anything yet, but
the president's advisory groupfor D three and, you know, Troja
is chairing the whole caboodleand, and doing, doing the whole
thing.
So I'm just now getting intothis, but it strikes me, NIL.
(23:33):
Is directly at odds with this.
We don't do athletics, financialaid, athletic scholarship bit,
and that's eventually gonna cometo a head.
Then as I am very resistant tothe idea of giving up on D three
with the philosophy we have trueamateurism, right?
You see the NCAA with the voteof its institutions doing things
(23:54):
like allowing for immediatetransfer and eligibility.
We know Matt.
That when a student transfersfrom school to school, their
chances of graduating with abachelor's degree are cut in
half.
Yeah.
And yet the NCAA division three,my peers voted that in 95% to
5%, and I was in the 5% voting.
No, that's not a division threething to do.
(24:16):
We got that wrong.
We put our students last.
Well, that was, that wasathletics before student
success, and it was wrong.
And so we've gotta get ourhearts right about what Division
three is even supposed to befinancially.
And in terms of our goal inDivision III is to get these
student athletes amazingathletic and leadership
experiences and get'em graduatedand allowing'em to transfer all
(24:38):
over the country and play forfour schools in four years.
It's bad for those students weshouldn't have done for forget
graduation.
Just just learning how to be anadult, learning how to live in
the world.
Yeah, and this is all residuefrom D one where athletics at
this point, as far as I cantell, has nothing to do with the
(25:00):
institution.
Yeah.
It's just a side enterprise anda professional sports league.
And in a professional sportsleague, your athletes can move
around because they're makingmoney and doing whatever that's,
they're not there to go toschool.
That's right.
A lot of these sports and so weought to be.
As far away from that in D threeas we can get.
And yet, well, they're doing itin D one that, that we should do
(25:21):
that too.
And athletic directors love thisidea.
Presidents need to do a betterjob of pushing back.
I agree.
I agree.
I I'm 100% behind you.
I, I just, I, I'm talking tocoaches and athletic directors
and presidents every day and,and I, and I want to understand
it better.
I want to understand.
'cause right now it just feelslike quicksand.
(25:43):
It, it doesn't feel like there'sany structure.
It doesn't feel like there's anydirection.
I'm talking to division one headcoaches that have to bring in a
class and, and they still don'tknow how much scholarship
they're gonna have for nextyear.
Yeah.
And so Matt, let's get in, let'sget in the way out machine for a
second.
Yeah.
And, and you know, they're gonnakick me off this NCAA committee
(26:06):
if anyone, you know, if the, ifthe central office listens to
this, but that's okay.
One of the things that many ofus are talking about is the
eventual de demise of the ncaa,right?
That when the power conferencesleave D one and set up their own
March Madness tournament, therevenue stream with the NCAA
falls apart and probably theNCAA falls apart.
(26:27):
And in D one you'll have thepower conferences doing their
things.
And all the non-power conferenceD two and D three schools will
be left out on their own.
And so then we'll end up with amuch more conference oriented.
Probably limited opportunity fornational championships, but
conferences will drive it.
And then maybe in those smallersettings, you can get this right
(26:48):
a little more easily.
Like, and, and not that we'reall trying to be Ivy League
schools, but like the Ivy Leaguehas sort of skewed a lot of the
D one practices.
Yeah.
Because in their conferencethey've decided they have a
different value set.
I, I would hope the conferencethat we're in the OAC would do
that.
But that, that's, at the momentwe're beholden to ncaa.
Changes.
(27:09):
So you can see a light at theend of this tunnel, even if the
NCAA is to fall apart.
And I, and, and we can create agood model and maybe we can then
go back to my original questionto you.
We can have other conferencesemulate and maybe eventually we
get back to a national type ofthing, but maybe, maybe we're
(27:30):
gonna be better if it'sconference focused.
I, I'm not rooting for thedemise of the ncaa, but I also
don't think it's catastrophicfor schools like us.
I mean, D three is at thispoint, so huge, Matt, that an
opportunity at a nationaltournament much less a national
championship is, is myopic.
Yeah.
And so, okay, you don't have anNCAA championship structure
(27:52):
anymore.
We have conference drives,things and you wanna be
conference champion.
Okay.
That's sort of how we operateanyway.
It's very rare that, you know,we're making these national.
Tournaments anyway, although wejust did, we just had a national
champion last year, so Ishouldn't say that.
Yeah.
When women women's wrestling, wehave a national champion.
That's right.
But it's rare.
Yeah, it is.
It's hard.
And it's the most schools in anydivision level, that's what
(28:13):
people don't understand, whereit's, it's almost 450 schools in
most sports and Division onedoesn't have that.
Division II doesn't come closeto that, so it's when you win
something that big, it's, it'svery cool.
I didn't even have NIL on mylist of questions for you, so I
don't want to take up thisentire podcast talking about it.
But let's, let's leave thisconversation with a little hope
(28:33):
as we move on to other things.
We just heard John Kalari andRick Pitino, two of the biggest
names in college basketball,stand in front of cameras
yesterday, in the last week, andsay, we are not recruiting high
school kids, just flat outside.
We we're, it doesn't make anysense for us when we have the
portal.
So we talked about the NAL, wetalked about this madness above
(28:57):
at the division one level.
What hope is there for thatfamily that's raised a great
kid.
They've worked hard, goodgrades, great student athlete,
and they want to, they want tokeep playing, but they're just,
they're not sure what all thisnoise means to them.
What's the hope for them?
Well, the hope for them is thatD three State clings to its
(29:18):
values, right?
Yeah.
Because I, I don't, I don'tblame.
If you, as an 18-year-old, havea reasonable prospect of going
pro in your sport and makingreal money and, and chasing that
dream, go for it.
Go to Ohio State and playfootball and hope you get
drafted and make millions ofdollars.
I, no one's gonna blame you forthat.
Right.
And that makes the Ohio StateFootball team and other power
(29:40):
conferences, football,basketball teams, minor leagues
for the pros, if we're beinghonest about what, what they're,
what they're doing.
Right?
Yeah.
And becoming pros themselves isthere, you know, you can get
paid millions of dollars as acollege student now in an IL
deal.
So they're pros themselves, butthe reality is no one's ever
going to come to Otterbein witha reasonable expectation of
(30:02):
turning pro in their sport.
And, and, and if anyone outthere is listening thinking, I'm
gonna be an NFL player, then youprobably don't wanna play
football at Otterbein.
You're gonna have greatexperience and we'd love to have
you.
But this is not a pipeline tothe NFL and we're not designed
to be.
And so for those who just wannaplay because they love it, if we
can maintain what has made DDthree different and I think
(30:24):
better than D one and D two,then we're gonna be okay.
It.
This NIL thing starts to blurthat line, and it depends on
whether our schools and ourboosters begin to really put
real money into NIL and messthat all up.
Yeah.
And that's not entirely withinour control.
Yeah, money.
(30:44):
Money causes all of our problemsit seems like these days.
Okay, let's, you, you talkedabout early on about the great
programs you have to help thosefinancial needy families get
into your school, but that stillcomes down.
You have to make the grade toget that money, to earn that
Pell Grant at your school, toearn that, that that
institutional money that you're,that you're offering to make
(31:05):
that affordable.
How do we get these parents tounderstand how important that is
so they don't figure it out at17?
Wow.
We could go to Otter by andtuition free, and we're only
making 40,000 a year.
How do we get parents tounderstand at the sixth and
seventh, six and seven yearolds, eight year olds.
(31:29):
That, that there has to behomework every night.
There has to be collaborationevery night.
There has to be something thatyou're, you're showing your kid,
this is the value here.
You can get a great education,have a great start to your life.
If we focus on your gradesearly, how do we do that so
those parents don't get thereand go, oh, we could have had
this, we could have gone tocollege for nothing.
(31:52):
Yeah.
Well there's, there's a couplethings that come to mind, Matt,
and again, I don't pretend tohave the solutions to all these.
Sure.
You're bringing up some bigsocietal issues and if I had, I
have the answers I'd, I'd berunning for something.
So first it's on us as a highereducation sector to do a better
job of educating about accessand affordability issues.
(32:13):
One, we need schools to walkthat walk and not enough schools
walk that walk.
They talk the talk, butultimately all their aid goes to
30 acts who come from wealthyfamilies.
That's right.
In suburban high schools.
So that's, that's empty words atthat point.
If you're talking about accessand affordability and that's
what you're doing.
So we have to walk the walk.
Then we have to spread the word,and this is part of what we've
created with the High Strickerprice model, is we're scaring
(32:35):
these families who are making 40grand a year.
No one's ever been to college.
They don't get, that's not areal number.
And so we need to do a betterjob.
This is where at at Otterbein wewe, this is a local solution and
a national solution.
We deliberately partner where weknow those families and those
students are, so we're.
In with the Columbus Cityschools and we're in the
(32:59):
programs that are helping firstgeneration students get to
college and we're in theaffordable housing nonprofits,
working with them to spread theword that your kids can go to
otterbine as opposed to thinkingprivate schools would be
impossible for you.
So there's local things, but Iwould think.
None of this matters unlessschools get their heart right
(33:21):
about actually investing instudents who deserve a chance.
Yeah.
And not just 30 a CT I'm notknocking 30 a CT students.
I just sent a 30 a CT studentoff to college.
But they, they're good.
And we, they, they deserve theiraid too.
But if that's what youryardstick is for success, well,
you're in a shrinking pool ofpotential applicants and
(33:43):
potential students, and it's notgonna work.
All right.
Let's take the, let's take thebig society issue and bring it
home for you.
Yeah.
How important is it that youhave a relationship with the
superintendent and principals inyour community to say, I want my
people in your school?
'cause you should have, youshould want my people in your
school talking to your families.
(34:04):
You, you, you should, once ayear, you should have somebody
from Otterbein or whatever thatlocal college is in here talking
to them about, Hey.
If you keep your grades here,this is what it can become.
This is what you can do.
So when you see a$60,000 yearprice tag, that's not gonna
happen.
That's not your reality.
If you decide you want tocontrol it now, if you want to
(34:25):
do the work now, is that a waythat we can take that big
picture and shrink it a littlebit If, if our presidents have
those relationships with thesuperintendents in the, in the
school districts?
Yeah, I, I think that helpscertainly.
So I, I, I know most, all thesuperintendents in Central Ohio
and a number beyond andcertainly this is always my
(34:45):
leading thing, is we're, we'reabout access and affordability.
Your students that are worriedabout affording college, we want
to be, and the superintendentsalways get it and respond well
when you get to the schoollevel.
And you're talking to theprincipal and the guidance
counselor where the rubber hitsthe road in the high school, in
the junior high middle school,this sort of stuff.
The problem becomes, we are seenas biased actors.
(35:11):
We're there to recruit forOtterbine, and so if they're
gonna let us in and have aspecial assembly, well, they
need to let Capital Universityin an Ohio, Dominican and Ohio
Wesleyan, an Ohio State, an OhioUniversity, and so they tend to
be.
See us all, which I don't blamethem for.
We're all the same and no onegets special time.
And so even if we showed upwith, well, no, no, no, no, no.
(35:33):
We have a special pitch aboutwhy you can really afford
college.
Even if you're Pell eligible,even you have no money for it.
There's still ways to do it.
They're gonna hear that as we'regonna go in there and make a
special otter buying pitch.
And I don't blame them for that,but it's, it's a hard nut to
crack.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it seems that we'rejust constantly chasing our
(35:55):
tail.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and sometimes we just needto see the forest for the trees
a little bit that I think mostpresidents are, are trying to do
what you're doing.
They're trying to make itaffordable.
They're trying to give firstgeneration kids and second
generation kids moreopportunities.
We just have so much ignoranceout there and, and that's my
concern.
(36:15):
I, I want more competency.
I want more.
I want more teachersunderstanding.
I've gotta be talking about thisin my math class.
I gotta be talking about this inmy history class.
In pe I gotta be talking about,Hey, you're a great athlete, but
if you're not doing well inhistory and math and English and
science, being a great athlete'snot gonna mean much for you
after you leave here.
(36:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we, there's also an issue ofsocial promotion and grade
inflation in K through 12 to thepoint where we can't tell what
GPAs mean outta school sometimesanymore.
And, and so there, there's avariety of things wrapped into
this that make this moredifficult.
I'll tell you, Matt, one of the,one of the most disappointing
results I've ever gotten inhigher ed is when I came here
(36:58):
about eight years ago.
Our VP for enrollment and I, youknow, share this philosophy and
this vision for access andaffordability.
And we said, well, why don't we,you know, get rid of the$34,000
sticker price and just price it.
At 16, 17, whatever the actualnet generally is, and just be
transparent.
And it's not a great analogy.
(37:19):
Be the, the Saturn of higher edwhere there's no negotiation.
It is what?
Saturn's a bad example.
'cause they close.
We don't wanna close, but youknow.
You know what I mean?
Yes, I know exactly what youmean.
Yes.
PE people don't trust higher ed.
Let's be the trustworthy schoolwas the idea.
And so before we did that, wehired a marketing company to
come do a research study.
Course of, you know, what wouldbe the impact right before we do
(37:39):
this?
Well, the answer is whatfamilies want, expect, are
motivated by is a really highsticker price and a really high
scholarship.
The, the, the, I'm not kidding.
The, we asked families, youknow, would you be more likely
to attend a school that costs17,000 and gives you no
scholarships or costs 30,000 andgives you$15,000?
(38:00):
We test all these differentlevels.
We would be better off atOtterbein with a hundred
thousand dollars sticker priceand everyone gets an$85,000
scholarship.
That's what they want.
That's right.
And so we have this ill-informedconsumer base that doesn't.
Isn't prepared with theirunderstanding of what all this
(38:20):
even means and they're getting,we get students, I'm sorry, I'm
ranting now Matt, but like I, weget students here all the time.
We're like 33, 30$4,000, andwe'll have a student that we
gave a$15,000 scholarship to,and then they went up the road
to a school that costs$50,000and they got a$25,000
scholarship.
They'll come to us, well, theygave us 25 and we say, well do
(38:43):
the math.
They want five,$10,000 more fromyou than we do, but there's this
perceived value that isinfuriating because that$50,000
is a made up number.
It might as well be a hundredthousand.
And here comes the coach in methat's saying, I don't want that
kid that can't do basic editionof subtraction.
(39:04):
Go to that other school.
It's mom and dad too though.
Mom and dad.
Yeah.
Johnny got$25,000 to go toWhoopty.
Whoopty, whoop.
It's nonsense.
It's nonsense.
It's so nonsense.
But they think it's real.
All right.
Talk to me about.
What you want out of yourcoaches.
What, and and this can be veryvague as well.
(39:26):
Yeah.
What kinda leaders are youlooking for?
Because I, it was funny, I, whenI talked to Jim, Jim said, every
coach that we bring intointerview, I have put'em on a
whiteboard and say, explain tome your philosophy.
Explain to me who you are, what,what is gonna be defining for
your.
For your program, and I lovethat.
You know, I've, I've interviewedfor a hundred coaching jobs.
No one's ever done that to me.
What is your expectations foryour coaches in terms of who
(39:48):
they are and how they representthe university and what their
role is?
Yeah, well let's just start bysaying Troja is gonna do a
better job than everybody elseto begin with.
There's no whiteboard in here.
Whatever.
God bless him though.
So.
Well, you know, it's, everybodyhas their different way to
attack it.
That's great.
Yeah.
What I talk to coaches aboutand, and this is sort of
coaches, I think tend to bepractical people, right?
(40:10):
Yeah.
You, you can, you can talk up inthe clouds all you want.
They're thinking about on thefield, on the court, what do I
gotta do?
How do I, how do I run thisplay?
Like they're just practicalpeople and I love that about it.
And so, and surrounding talkingup in the clouds, I tend to
coach as about recruit, retain,and win.
Okay.
And these things feed off ofeach other.
(40:31):
It's, it's a virtuous cycle orit's a cycle that takes you down
into nowhere.
Right?
Right.
And so if you can recruit, well,then hopefully you're getting a
roster that has some talent onit.
And then D three without a fairscholarships, and let's pretend
there's no NIL.
That has always been, you needsome volume on your roster to
have some talent.
(40:51):
Yes.
Right, right.
I mean, that's just the way Dthree works.
And so if you can recruit.
Some students in, then you'regonna start to have some
success.
You're gonna build a positiveculture and then retain those
students, not just on your teamand in your program, but at the
institution.
Right.
And these things feed on eachother.
And when I say win, I alwaystell coaches I don't have to
have a conference championshipevery year, but we have to be
(41:13):
competitive.
Yeah.
No one wants to play for the ohand 30 team.
That's, that's, that's terrible.
Right.
That's not a good experience.
That's right.
It's not fun, it's notuplifting, it's not a positive
thing.
And so you have to be.
500 at least to be competitive,like you're not getting blown
out, you're in the mix is whatmatters then, right?
Occasionally run for aconference championship, that's
(41:34):
great.
And so these things can feed oneach other.
Or if you're losing program, andwe've had those too, where you
can't recruit to a losingprogram, students leave a losing
program.
The program gets to be more andmore losing because you can't
recruit and retain.
You've gotta get those threeworking in sync together, moving
up, not down.
I love it.
And it, it seems so simple,right?
(41:58):
It's, it just sounds so easy,right?
I mean, why, why don't we all doit?
Yeah.
And, and, and at the end of theday, where I am mentor coaches
is I go, you don't understandyour university.
You're, you're recruitingagainst yourself.
You don't know how yourfinancial aid works.
You don't know how youradmissions works.
(42:19):
You don't know the strength ofyour academic programs.
You know, I talk to coaches thatwin national championships and
they go, yeah, we're really goodat physical therapy.
Half my roster is physicaltherapists.
We've got a great nursingprogram.
Half of my roster is nurses, youknow, and it's smart, you know,
they know what they're goingafter.
They're not reaching for, forthings that are only gonna hurt
(42:40):
them in the long run.
So I love the mentality.
And I think the more we keep itsimple, the the better it is.
Thank you for doing this.
I know you've got a meeting andI want to talk recruiting with
you, but thank you for havingthis big picture conversation.
I know how hard it is to talkabout because we just don't have
answers, but I love the factthat you're looking at it from a
(43:02):
perspective is.
Whoever wants to come here,we're gonna give'em a great
education.
We're gonna be open armed.
We're gonna make sure that ifthis is what they choose, we're
gonna make sure they're notleaving here with a a hundred
thousand dollars in debt andthey've got an opportunity to go
have a career when they leavehere.
Right.
That's right, that's right.
And Matt, thanks for leadingthis conversation.
(43:23):
Thanks sir.
Thanks, Matt.
That brings us to the end ofpart one of my conversation with
Dr.
John Erford, president ofOtterbine University.
What stood out today is hiswillingness to speak plainly
about the cost of college andthe barriers that keep families
from even considering optionsthat might actually be their
best fit.
(43:43):
He doesn't sugarcoat it, andthat honesty is refreshing, but
we're just getting started inpart two.
Dr.
Erford comes back and we'regonna shift gears and he's gonna
share his perspective on collegerecruiting, what he expects from
his coaches, what he believesfamilies should understand about
the process, and how leadershipat the top can shape an entire
(44:04):
athletic department's culture.
If you're a student athlete, aparent, or a coach, you won't
wanna miss it.
For more tools and resources tohelp guide your own college
journey, visit coach mattrogers.com, and if you haven't
already, hit that subscribebutton.
It's free.
It costs you nothing, and itmakes sure you never miss
conversations like this one.
(44:24):
Until next time, stay focused,stay humble, and keep chasing
significance.
You see the NCAA with the voteof its institutions doing things
(00:05):
like allowing for immediatetransfer and eligibility.
We know Matt.
That when a student transfersfrom school to school, their
chances of graduating with abachelor's degree are cut in
half.
Yeah.
And yet the NCAA division three,my peers voted that in 95% to
5%, and I was in the 5% voting.
No, that's not a division threething to do.
(00:27):
We got that wrong.
We put our students last.
Welcome back to the SignificantCoaching Podcast.
I'm your host Matt Rogers.
We have a very special two partepisode this week.
I open the show with a clip thatcaptures exactly why I see this
(00:50):
week's guest.
As a true higher educationsuperhero because of his
conviction to helping familiesmake college affordable and
ensuring students have theopportunity to graduate without
being buried under a mountain ofdebt.
Today's guest is Dr.
John Erford, president ofOtterbine University in
Westerville, Ohio.
(01:11):
I was blessed to both attendcollege and then spend nearly 20
years working at the NCAADivision three and Division two
Levels and the NAI level.
That experience fuels my missionto make sure every parent and
student understands just howmany outstanding choices exist
beyond their local stateschools.
(01:32):
As you'll hear, I askedPresident Comerford some
difficult big picture questionsand he never backed down.
He never gave an easy outanswer.
He spoke from the heart, and Ibelieve that's the same way he
lives his life and leads hiscommunity.
If you're a parent or a highschool educator, you're in for a
treat.
(01:52):
Dr.
Erford is about to challenge andblow up some of the things you
may assume you know about highereducation and tuition costs.
Things that too often discourageeveryday families from even
considering private colleges.
I learned a ton from thisconversation, and I know you
will too.
It's not only educational, butit was a lot of fun.
(02:13):
For more information about me,along with my coaching and
recruiting books, classes, andresources, and speaking
opportunities.
Please visit coach mattrogers.com and if you enjoy this
conversation, please hit thatsubscribe button.
I can't tell you enough.
It's free.
It costs you nothing, but itdoes help me keep bringing you
(02:34):
transformational conversationswith people who share the truths
about college, sports, andeducation.
Without further ado, here's partone of my conversation with Dr.
John Erford.
Dr.
Comfor, so excited to have youon the podcast.
Thanks for being on the showtoday.
Well, thanks for having me.
I'm honored to be invited,especially by way of Rich
(02:56):
Dunsworth and Jim Troja.
Good people, really good people,and they, they've spoken highly
of you.
I want to jump in, if you don'tmind.
I want to kind of quote you alittle bit from what I've, I've
read you said that you've saidthat Otter BeIN's leadership is
meant to be different, specialand worthy of emulation.
I love that.
I think every college anduniversity should be striving
(03:19):
for emulation from their peers.
What does that look like inpractice when you're leading a
campus community?
So the primary thing I'm talkingabout when I say something like
that is the rot in the heart ofAmerican higher education is
elitism.
We all want 30 a CT kids fromsuburban high schools and to be
(03:41):
in the top whatever, top 10ranking, whatever stupid
magazine comes along.
This lay leads us to do thingsthat are bad for students, bad
for institutions, and bad forsociety.
And so if you looked me up,Matt, you saw I was president of
Blackburn College in Illinoislast a work college unabashedly
serving a majority Pell eligiblestudent population, given kids a
(04:02):
chance that wouldn't have achance anywhere else.
And Otterbein is a heart of thecurve.
We serve rich kids, we servepoor kids, we serve local kids,
we serve international kids, andI shouldn't call them kids, but
we have to as charities.
Open the door wider to higher edand not measure ourselves by how
many doors we close, right?
(04:24):
How do we do that when we haveto keep the doors open and, and,
and feed the kids and pay thewater bill?
How do we do that the right way?
So those, those families thatdon't have 25,000 a year saved,
how do we give them thatopportunity to go to an
otterbine and not, not just theyhave to settle for the local
community college?
(04:46):
Yeah, so this is actually, it'snot just a values thing.
It's not just a, like it's theright thing to do thing.
It is for a place likeOtterbine, a business
imperative.
It works in our business model.
And here's the secret sauce, andevery president in the country
should totally copy this.
If you take the Pell Grant.
(05:07):
If you take, at least in Ohiohere, the Ohio College
Opportunity Grant, but everystate has some need-based grant
that matches with the Pell,right?
Sure.
If you get some SGOG dollars andthings like that in there, I'm
getting for a Pell eligible zeroa FC student,$14,000 a year in
revenue.
My typical net revenue perstudent is like 15 or 16.
(05:31):
It's not meaningfully different.
Right, and so I can put adeserving low income student
into a seat that, given thedemographics would probably
otherwise be empty, get realrevenue for it and do the right
thing.
This isn't just a give it awayfor free'cause it's the right
thing to do.
It's been the key to the growththat we've had.
(05:52):
All right, so that helps yourlower class families, the
families that are making under60,000 a year, typically 50,000
a year.
What do we do?
What do we do for those middleclass families that are busting
their tail?
Mom and dad are both working.
They're making 120, 130,000 ayear with two parents, and
they're looking at a price tagof 20 grand a year and going, we
(06:14):
just can't do it.
We, you know, where, where do wefind that extra$1,200 a month to
send our kid to a good college?
How do we help that family?
Yeah, so the donut hole, and Idon't have a magic thing there.
It's, I I talk a lot about highincome students.
They're fine.
Yeah.
Pell eligible students.
We found a way to make it workfor Pell eligible students.
It's the students between there.
(06:34):
Yeah.
That it does get difficult.
There's no way around it.
I, I would implore all of us tothink about our pricing models.
We have a high tuition, highdiscount model like most other
schools have.
Even now, public universitiesare having these, these high
discount rates, and so thesticker price tends to scare
these families away.
(06:55):
If you looked at Otter buyingsticker price, you're gonna find
34, 30$4,000 a year, and thosefamilies especially gonna go
Uhuh.
And so we have seen the marketgrow.
For public institutions becausetheir sticker price appears more
affordable.
Right?
The reality is if we can atleast get'em to look, then we're
often as affordable, if not moreaffordable than the public.
(07:18):
It's about doing a better job,Matt, of.
Helping students find theirmatch.
And too often we don't do a goodjob of articulating the
finances, articulatingdistinctiveness in the
institution.
Why is Otterbein different thanOhio State University?
And there's a thousand reasonswhy Ohio State's Great.
So are we, but we're different.
Yeah.
And helping them find thatmatch.
(07:40):
Well, I know how hard you'reworking at it and and I love
that about you and I love thatmessaging.
'cause I've talked to parents.
I, you know, I've, I can't tellyou how many presidents I've
talked to about that model thatyou're, you're discussing is, we
had to keep up with the Joneses.
I always hear.
You know, you know, everybody inour conference is moving to 50
to 70,000 a year.
We had to move up there orotherwise we don't look like
(08:02):
we're we, we have, we're thesame value proposition.
But parents don't know that.
Parents don't know that you'reincreasing what you're giving
with the raise in tuitionprices.
So how do we explain, how do weexplain that?
To my dad who was a barber for60 years making, you know, five,
(08:23):
$6 a head of hair back in theseventies and eighties when I
was going to school.
How do we explain to him when hesees a$60,000 price tag that
they still should apply?
They should still go through thefinancial aid process, not to
think that it's not tenable.
So what we found, and this isnot perfect, is signaling it
(08:43):
before we get FAFSA data backfrom the federal government.
Too often we hope they apply.
If they apply, well then we waituntil the spring when we get
ICER's data from the feds to beable to package financial aid.
Right?
Right.
And so there's this long periodin which you look super
unaffordable and out of reachand all until suddenly the
financial aid comes in late inthe spring.
(09:05):
And so for a Pell eligiblestudent, we've marketed, we call
it the Opportunity Scholarship,and we just tell'em, if you're
Pell eligible, we've got you fortuition full, tuition covered,
no loans.
Simple, clear, you know, rightaway if you're eligible or not.
And so, boom.
And you can go into a lowerincome school district or go
(09:27):
into a charitable partner andjust say that, and they're,
they're, they light up.
And so it's clear you don't haveto wait and, you know, figure
out 17 things on a, on a FAFSAformula.
For the middle class students,what we've done, we just had a
really good incoming class thisfall.
We're really happy, and part ofthat was we have always packaged
(09:48):
students twice.
We package merit the momentthey're admitted, right?
Because we know GPA, we know aCT Smart Package.
Mary, right away.
Then we wait for ICER's data topackage need.
Well, a year ago, remember theFAFSA debacle where the ICER's
data was delayed and the FAFSAwas delayed forever and
whatever, and that was a realcrisis across the country.
(10:09):
We took that moment to look atour data, and 95% of our
students were getting repackagedwith additional need aid after
the iceers.
And so why not just move thataid up front?
Yeah, and give'em a better lookwith that first package.
And we think that's one of thethings we did that led to a
bigger class coming in is justnot having to wait for months
(10:32):
for the FAFSA data.
If you can communicate thatclearly, upfront, give it a name
like the OpportunityScholarship, at least that's had
some effect here.
I love it.
I'm gonna transition intoathletics a little bit here with
you.
Yeah.
Because I, I, because I think itplays such a big role in a small
campus in terms of you payingthe bills, you being able to
market.
You've been able to get theotter by name out there, not to
(10:53):
mention filling beds and allthose things that we want
athletics to do for us.
Yeah.
The NCAA has made it very clearfor many, many years.
50, 67 years, whatever it's beenthat we can't give athletic
scholarships.
We can't give anything based onyour athleticism to a kid coming
into your school.
Right?
(11:14):
Not in D three.
Yeah, not in D three, but wehave, we have institutions at
the D three level that arefinding a way to make it cheaper
with the same price tag.
Is there a way to do that withyour coaches without breaking
the rules?
Is there a way to say, you knowwhat, we're giving this much
(11:37):
money to that kid with a 3 8 8 38 GPA 1200 SAT.
We're gonna give this kid, thesekids this amount of money and
we're gonna make sure they getthis is affordable for them.
And we're also gonna do thatsame amount for our, we're gonna
make sure our coaches knowthey're going after that type of
kid.
This is the number we want youto go after coaches.
(11:58):
That doesn't mean you can't getother kids in the door, but if
you want to get that bottom lineto here, this is the kid you
have to go over.
Is that being preached from topdown to your coaches so they,
they understand they've gotta goafter that certain individual,
at least maybe 50%, 60% of theirroster.
Does that make sense to you?
It does make sense.
(12:19):
And I would say at least here,part of that is happening.
So we, when we launched theopportunity scholarship for the
Pell eligible students that wecan now cover full tuition with
no loans, that's a game changingfinancial aid package.
Right.
I think our coaches.
And many sports had stoppedrecruiting, say in urban school
districts because they thought,these kids can't afford
(12:41):
Otterbein, so I'm not gonna goand waste their time and waste
my time.
So we went to those coaches,said, Hey, those students can
now afford Otterbein.
If they're PEGON eligible, wegot'em full tuition and you're
not gonna get, even your 30 A CTkid from the Suburban isn't
getting full tuition.
Right.
And so.
You ought to now go into thoseschools and build those
(13:01):
pathways, and that's led to morediversity and those sorts of
things like that.
We have not though Matt gone tocoaches and said, Hey, here's
our sweet spot of revenuestudents, right?
We So as long as they'readmissible, as long as they can
find a way to afford it, givenwhatever package they get based
on their need and their merit,we've not directioned them
(13:23):
within that.
But we have seen a number ofsports.
Open up new recruitingterritories based on the
opportunity scholarship.
I love that as a separate thing.
Matt, can I just go ahead and beblunt and say, this feels like
it's gonna be moot pretty soonbecause NIL is gonna blow up D
three i I I, I mean, there arealready schools in D three that
(13:44):
are packaging NIL.
And so how long are we gonnapretend that we're not packaging
athletic scholarships?
I don't like that.
I'm not a fan of that.
I think that's corrupting, and Idon't wanna be anything like D
one Where athletics is is, iswagging the dog.
I, I, I don't want any part ofthat in D three, but given the
legality of NIL, we're seeing,not at Otterbine yet, but at
(14:08):
other schools, booster groupsget together and go give, let's
just call'em what they are.
Athletic scholarships.
They're just called nis.
And so what does D three meannow?
It's, it is so frustrating forme'cause I was a D three
athlete.
I was a D three head coach.
I was the D three athleticdirector.
I'm now a consultant for smallcolleges across the country and
(14:31):
I loved my experience.
You know, would I have liked togone cheaper?
Would I've loved is somebody,gimme some money.
But I, I, at some point, don'twe have to articulate and define
NIL for what it is.
If, if, if, if, if a company'snot giving me money to use me in
a commercial or put me on, youknow, on their banner or you
(14:54):
know, I'm wearing their shoes,what is NILI, I don't understand
it.
So that's my problem with it andit's, it, we have to be able to
let these kids make a living,make more money if they can do
it.
But how many, how many shootingguards at the division three
level are gonna get money forbeing, for having a Coke bottle
(15:16):
in their hand?
Well, not for having a Cokebottle in their hand, but that's
not a literal requirement.
Right.
Yeah.
I understand.
The Ohio State quarterback canprobably help you sell Coke or
sell cars.
I get that right?
Yeah, sure.
Okay.
You're right.
No D three athlete or very few Dthree athletes will ever
actually help the company sellanything.
(15:37):
But you don't have to do thatpart, right?
Right.
You can just put together an NILdeal and give.
That's right.
Give a student money and that'swhere.
So what does D three mean?
One of the things I've alwayssaid,'cause I've been D three
pretty much my whole career,right?
Westminster College.
Blackburn College, Otterbein.
Like I've been around D threefor 25 years and I loved that.
(15:57):
I would always say, and still dofor now, this is college
athletics as it was meant to be.
Yes.
It's pure amateurism.
It's.
Students who play because theylove their sport and they love
their school and they love theirteammates, we're not paying them
to play.
Right.
And that resonates with people.
This is what it's supposed tobe.
But NIL cuts directly againstthat and it's here.
(16:22):
Is there a way, is there a wayto enforce this?
Or a D three simply can't putany of that money, any of that
NIL money in their financialaid.
Well, it's not in financial aid.
My understanding, and, and Matt,I'm gonna put the caveat, I'm no
lawyer or expert on this stuff,right?
But my understanding is it hasto be an outside group.
(16:43):
Like it's designed to be like acompany, your local Ford dealer,
you know, whatever.
But instead, the outside groupis turning into alumni booster
clubs, right?
That are not controlled by theuniversity.
The university cannot directlyput that money into financial
aid, but you could have abooster group.
And I think this is happening inD three now.
(17:04):
Go to that really great pointguard and say, Hey, I know the,
the college financial aid thingwith you have a$20,000 bill and
we have a$10,000 NIL deal foryou.
So why don't you go to Otterbeinand play point guard.
So it's not technicallyfinancial aid, it's NIL and it's
not from the university, it'sfrom the boosters.
(17:25):
But the line is so fuzzy thatit's meaningless and I think
we're just professionalizing Dthree.
All right.
You talked about Westminster inBlackburn.
I was the head coach andathletic director at Maryville
for many years.
I, I think we, oh, yeah.
I think we had some overlap.
So I coached against thoseschools and I, I can't imagine
for the life of me there everbeing anything like that at any
(17:50):
of those schools.
Yeah.
Where, where, where would thathave come from?
At a black burner in Maryville.
Here's my worry, Matt, is thisis gonna cannibalize what
limited athletic fundraising wehave.
And so instead of a boostergiving to pay, help us pay for
our new bleachers in the That'sright.
They're gonna give to the NILand say, well, I, I helped out
Otterbein'cause I gave to theN-L-N-I-L booster group.
(18:14):
And so there's not, I don'tthink I, there's always more
money to be raised.
Don't get me wrong.
But I it at some point with, foran individual donor, it's a zero
sum game and I gave my 10 grandfor the NIL Booster club as
opposed to my 10 grand for thenew bleachers.
And so I do think we'recompeting with ourselves at the
(18:35):
end of the day.
I agree.
So I'm gonna go back to myinitial question that I did, I
butchered and I didn't ask itvery well.
But let's say that NLI moneycomes to you, okay.
And, and the idea is we're gonnagive you a million dollars and
we want that million dollars tobe divvied up.
(18:57):
Half non-athletes, halfathletes.
Does the NCAA get in your way ifit's going to both?
I think so long.
If the university's distributingthe aid and athletics is a
criteria to the award, we arenot allowed to do it.
If so, yes, I do think that getsin way.
What if, what if it's, what ifit's not?
Because at the end of the day,what does an audit look like?
(19:19):
It's about, is there consistencybetween non-athletes and
athletes?
Am I wrong in that?
That's what the audit is.
But if we had a scholarship fundthat had, so for example, we've,
we, I think it was Blackburn,maybe I, maybe we did this at
Otterbein.
I, I forget which school it was,but we had some scholarship
endowments like from theseventies or something like
(19:39):
that, where it said this is,this is for a student from
whatever county who's a studentathlete, whatever, whatever.
We had to change that languageto take student athlete out.
And put in student leadershipand being a student athlete is
part of student leadership andso they would still qualify, but
you couldn't have any criteriato do with athletics is my
(20:00):
understanding.
Alright, so that's, this getsback to the heart of my point.
All right.
Can we, can we convince theseboosters that we can't promise
you it's gonna go to athletics?
We can't even say it is it'sever gonna go to an athlete.
But why not have the mindsetfrom your admissions and
financial aid, we're gonna worktogether and create some balance
there and help the coaches makesure the kids they're bringing
(20:23):
in are getting it.
Can we do it on the down low oris that still icky?
Oh, that's icky.
I think so what I want is adonor.
If, if Matt and, and I, I, I cantell you've got a million dollar
check, you're ready to write itand you can write to Otterbein.
'cause after this conversation,you're all in.
Right?
And you're, you're gonna say, Iwant it to be for student
(20:43):
financial aid.
Now that million dollars orwhatever, it spins out.
We can use for athletes andnon-athletes alike, right?
But I would feel very, with thecurrent division three rules,
ill at ease about using ATHathletic participation as any
criteria at all.
I wouldn't even wanna look at,well, we want it to make 30% of
(21:04):
our students are athletes.
Let's make at least 30% of themoney should go to athletes.
I don't think you can use thatat all, given the current
structure.
Which is another reason thatyou, Matt, as a donor who wants
to support athletics, might betempted to put that money into
an NIL booster group becausethen it is going to athletics.
Exactly.
And athletes to be, notathletics, but athletes.
(21:25):
Yeah.
And, and I'm trying to come atthis and I'm not a lawyer and
I'll never pretend to be alawyer.
I'm trying to come at this in away where we can do this.
And get the NIL out of, out ofthe way and keep D three the way
it is.
I'm trying to, that's, that's,that's my whole focus with this.
I, I don't wanna lose thatpossibility.
(21:46):
So can we go this route?
Can we just tell everybodythat's a part of recruiting
athletes to say, this is whatwe're looking for.
This is, these are, these arethe things we want Tell your
baseball coach, but tell yourbiology professor.
Tell your, whoever's in chargeof your band, can we say, we're
looking for this and we wannamake sure this sum of money or
(22:07):
this lump of money goes to thosetype of kids.
Sure.
And ath athlete never needs tobe a part of the conversation,
but we're trying to find balanceacross all of those
extracurriculars and youracademic programs.
Yeah.
And if I'm following you, Ithink that's what we do now.
Okay.
And so we publish our, our meritscholarships and our, and our
(22:29):
need based, based on Pell areknown things.
And so a coach would know ifthey find a great point guard
who's also a 4.0 GPA and a 32 aCT, they're getting a
presidential scholarship and afull ride.
They know that.
And so they can I'm sure usethat as they're thinking about
this.
But it's, you know, those arealso the students we're all
(22:50):
chasing.
It's, it's the, it's the raceto, to merit.
Well, it's, it's at the end ofthe day, and this is the
challenge that the NCAAcontinues to face, this face for
years, it's, it comes down toenforcement.
It doesn't matter what rule weput in place or what we all
agree to or what we accept if wecan't enforce it.
(23:11):
Yeah.
But let's.
So I think division three is inthis land between, and, and we
have not, I, I just joined the,I haven't done anything yet, but
the president's advisory groupfor D three and, you know, Troja
is chairing the whole caboodleand, and doing, doing the whole
thing.
So I'm just now getting intothis, but it strikes me, NIL.
(23:33):
Is directly at odds with this.
We don't do athletics, financialaid, athletic scholarship bit,
and that's eventually gonna cometo a head.
Then as I am very resistant tothe idea of giving up on D three
with the philosophy we have trueamateurism, right?
You see the NCAA with the voteof its institutions doing things
(23:54):
like allowing for immediatetransfer and eligibility.
We know Matt.
That when a student transfersfrom school to school, their
chances of graduating with abachelor's degree are cut in
half.
Yeah.
And yet the NCAA division three,my peers voted that in 95% to
5%, and I was in the 5% voting.
No, that's not a division threething to do.
(24:16):
We got that wrong.
We put our students last.
Well, that was, that wasathletics before student
success, and it was wrong.
And so we've gotta get ourhearts right about what Division
three is even supposed to befinancially.
And in terms of our goal inDivision III is to get these
student athletes amazingathletic and leadership
experiences and get'em graduatedand allowing'em to transfer all
(24:38):
over the country and play forfour schools in four years.
It's bad for those students weshouldn't have done for forget
graduation.
Just just learning how to be anadult, learning how to live in
the world.
Yeah, and this is all residuefrom D one where athletics at
this point, as far as I cantell, has nothing to do with the
(25:00):
institution.
Yeah.
It's just a side enterprise anda professional sports league.
And in a professional sportsleague, your athletes can move
around because they're makingmoney and doing whatever that's,
they're not there to go toschool.
That's right.
A lot of these sports and so weought to be.
As far away from that in D threeas we can get.
And yet, well, they're doing itin D one that, that we should do
(25:21):
that too.
And athletic directors love thisidea.
Presidents need to do a betterjob of pushing back.
I agree.
I agree.
I I'm 100% behind you.
I, I just, I, I'm talking tocoaches and athletic directors
and presidents every day and,and I, and I want to understand
it better.
I want to understand.
'cause right now it just feelslike quicksand.
(25:43):
It, it doesn't feel like there'sany structure.
It doesn't feel like there's anydirection.
I'm talking to division one headcoaches that have to bring in a
class and, and they still don'tknow how much scholarship
they're gonna have for nextyear.
Yeah.
And so Matt, let's get in, let'sget in the way out machine for a
second.
Yeah.
And, and you know, they're gonnakick me off this NCAA committee
(26:06):
if anyone, you know, if the, ifthe central office listens to
this, but that's okay.
One of the things that many ofus are talking about is the
eventual de demise of the ncaa,right?
That when the power conferencesleave D one and set up their own
March Madness tournament, therevenue stream with the NCAA
falls apart and probably theNCAA falls apart.
(26:27):
And in D one you'll have thepower conferences doing their
things.
And all the non-power conferenceD two and D three schools will
be left out on their own.
And so then we'll end up with amuch more conference oriented.
Probably limited opportunity fornational championships, but
conferences will drive it.
And then maybe in those smallersettings, you can get this right
(26:48):
a little more easily.
Like, and, and not that we'reall trying to be Ivy League
schools, but like the Ivy Leaguehas sort of skewed a lot of the
D one practices.
Yeah.
Because in their conferencethey've decided they have a
different value set.
I, I would hope the conferencethat we're in the OAC would do
that.
But that, that's, at the momentwe're beholden to ncaa.
Changes.
(27:09):
So you can see a light at theend of this tunnel, even if the
NCAA is to fall apart.
And I, and, and we can create agood model and maybe we can then
go back to my original questionto you.
We can have other conferencesemulate and maybe eventually we
get back to a national type ofthing, but maybe, maybe we're
(27:30):
gonna be better if it'sconference focused.
I, I'm not rooting for thedemise of the ncaa, but I also
don't think it's catastrophicfor schools like us.
I mean, D three is at thispoint, so huge, Matt, that an
opportunity at a nationaltournament much less a national
championship is, is myopic.
Yeah.
And so, okay, you don't have anNCAA championship structure
(27:52):
anymore.
We have conference drives,things and you wanna be
conference champion.
Okay.
That's sort of how we operateanyway.
It's very rare that, you know,we're making these national.
Tournaments anyway, although wejust did, we just had a national
champion last year, so Ishouldn't say that.
Yeah.
When women women's wrestling, wehave a national champion.
That's right.
But it's rare.
Yeah, it is.
It's hard.
And it's the most schools in anydivision level, that's what
(28:13):
people don't understand, whereit's, it's almost 450 schools in
most sports and Division onedoesn't have that.
Division II doesn't come closeto that, so it's when you win
something that big, it's, it'svery cool.
I didn't even have NIL on mylist of questions for you, so I
don't want to take up thisentire podcast talking about it.
But let's, let's leave thisconversation with a little hope
(28:33):
as we move on to other things.
We just heard John Kalari andRick Pitino, two of the biggest
names in college basketball,stand in front of cameras
yesterday, in the last week, andsay, we are not recruiting high
school kids, just flat outside.
We we're, it doesn't make anysense for us when we have the
portal.
So we talked about the NAL, wetalked about this madness above
(28:57):
at the division one level.
What hope is there for thatfamily that's raised a great
kid.
They've worked hard, goodgrades, great student athlete,
and they want to, they want tokeep playing, but they're just,
they're not sure what all thisnoise means to them.
What's the hope for them?
Well, the hope for them is thatD three State clings to its
(29:18):
values, right?
Yeah.
Because I, I don't, I don'tblame.
If you, as an 18-year-old, havea reasonable prospect of going
pro in your sport and makingreal money and, and chasing that
dream, go for it.
Go to Ohio State and playfootball and hope you get
drafted and make millions ofdollars.
I, no one's gonna blame you forthat.
Right.
And that makes the Ohio StateFootball team and other power
(29:40):
conferences, football,basketball teams, minor leagues
for the pros, if we're beinghonest about what, what they're,
what they're doing.
Right?
Yeah.
And becoming pros themselves isthere, you know, you can get
paid millions of dollars as acollege student now in an IL
deal.
So they're pros themselves, butthe reality is no one's ever
going to come to Otterbein witha reasonable expectation of
(30:02):
turning pro in their sport.
And, and, and if anyone outthere is listening thinking, I'm
gonna be an NFL player, then youprobably don't wanna play
football at Otterbein.
You're gonna have greatexperience and we'd love to have
you.
But this is not a pipeline tothe NFL and we're not designed
to be.
And so for those who just wannaplay because they love it, if we
can maintain what has made DDthree different and I think
(30:24):
better than D one and D two,then we're gonna be okay.
It.
This NIL thing starts to blurthat line, and it depends on
whether our schools and ourboosters begin to really put
real money into NIL and messthat all up.
Yeah.
And that's not entirely withinour control.
Yeah, money.
(30:44):
Money causes all of our problemsit seems like these days.
Okay, let's, you, you talkedabout early on about the great
programs you have to help thosefinancial needy families get
into your school, but that stillcomes down.
You have to make the grade toget that money, to earn that
Pell Grant at your school, toearn that, that that
institutional money that you're,that you're offering to make
(31:05):
that affordable.
How do we get these parents tounderstand how important that is
so they don't figure it out at17?
Wow.
We could go to Otter by andtuition free, and we're only
making 40,000 a year.
How do we get parents tounderstand at the sixth and
seventh, six and seven yearolds, eight year olds.
(31:29):
That, that there has to behomework every night.
There has to be collaborationevery night.
There has to be something thatyou're, you're showing your kid,
this is the value here.
You can get a great education,have a great start to your life.
If we focus on your gradesearly, how do we do that so
those parents don't get thereand go, oh, we could have had
this, we could have gone tocollege for nothing.
(31:52):
Yeah.
Well there's, there's a couplethings that come to mind, Matt,
and again, I don't pretend tohave the solutions to all these.
Sure.
You're bringing up some bigsocietal issues and if I had, I
have the answers I'd, I'd berunning for something.
So first it's on us as a highereducation sector to do a better
job of educating about accessand affordability issues.
(32:13):
One, we need schools to walkthat walk and not enough schools
walk that walk.
They talk the talk, butultimately all their aid goes to
30 acts who come from wealthyfamilies.
That's right.
In suburban high schools.
So that's, that's empty words atthat point.
If you're talking about accessand affordability and that's
what you're doing.
So we have to walk the walk.
Then we have to spread the word,and this is part of what we've
created with the High Strickerprice model, is we're scaring
(32:35):
these families who are making 40grand a year.
No one's ever been to college.
They don't get, that's not areal number.
And so we need to do a betterjob.
This is where at at Otterbein wewe, this is a local solution and
a national solution.
We deliberately partner where weknow those families and those
students are, so we're.
In with the Columbus Cityschools and we're in the
(32:59):
programs that are helping firstgeneration students get to
college and we're in theaffordable housing nonprofits,
working with them to spread theword that your kids can go to
otterbine as opposed to thinkingprivate schools would be
impossible for you.
So there's local things, but Iwould think.
None of this matters unlessschools get their heart right
(33:21):
about actually investing instudents who deserve a chance.
Yeah.
And not just 30 a CT I'm notknocking 30 a CT students.
I just sent a 30 a CT studentoff to college.
But they, they're good.
And we, they, they deserve theiraid too.
But if that's what youryardstick is for success, well,
you're in a shrinking pool ofpotential applicants and
(33:43):
potential students, and it's notgonna work.
All right.
Let's take the, let's take thebig society issue and bring it
home for you.
Yeah.
How important is it that youhave a relationship with the
superintendent and principals inyour community to say, I want my
people in your school?
'cause you should have, youshould want my people in your
school talking to your families.
(34:04):
You, you, you should, once ayear, you should have somebody
from Otterbein or whatever thatlocal college is in here talking
to them about, Hey.
If you keep your grades here,this is what it can become.
This is what you can do.
So when you see a$60,000 yearprice tag, that's not gonna
happen.
That's not your reality.
If you decide you want tocontrol it now, if you want to
(34:25):
do the work now, is that a waythat we can take that big
picture and shrink it a littlebit If, if our presidents have
those relationships with thesuperintendents in the, in the
school districts?
Yeah, I, I think that helpscertainly.
So I, I, I know most, all thesuperintendents in Central Ohio
and a number beyond andcertainly this is always my
(34:45):
leading thing, is we're, we'reabout access and affordability.
Your students that are worriedabout affording college, we want
to be, and the superintendentsalways get it and respond well
when you get to the schoollevel.
And you're talking to theprincipal and the guidance
counselor where the rubber hitsthe road in the high school, in
the junior high middle school,this sort of stuff.
The problem becomes, we are seenas biased actors.
(35:11):
We're there to recruit forOtterbine, and so if they're
gonna let us in and have aspecial assembly, well, they
need to let Capital Universityin an Ohio, Dominican and Ohio
Wesleyan, an Ohio State, an OhioUniversity, and so they tend to
be.
See us all, which I don't blamethem for.
We're all the same and no onegets special time.
And so even if we showed upwith, well, no, no, no, no, no.
(35:33):
We have a special pitch aboutwhy you can really afford
college.
Even if you're Pell eligible,even you have no money for it.
There's still ways to do it.
They're gonna hear that as we'regonna go in there and make a
special otter buying pitch.
And I don't blame them for that,but it's, it's a hard nut to
crack.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it seems that we'rejust constantly chasing our
(35:55):
tail.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and sometimes we just needto see the forest for the trees
a little bit that I think mostpresidents are, are trying to do
what you're doing.
They're trying to make itaffordable.
They're trying to give firstgeneration kids and second
generation kids moreopportunities.
We just have so much ignoranceout there and, and that's my
concern.
(36:15):
I, I want more competency.
I want more.
I want more teachersunderstanding.
I've gotta be talking about thisin my math class.
I gotta be talking about this inmy history class.
In pe I gotta be talking about,Hey, you're a great athlete, but
if you're not doing well inhistory and math and English and
science, being a great athlete'snot gonna mean much for you
after you leave here.
(36:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we, there's also an issue ofsocial promotion and grade
inflation in K through 12 to thepoint where we can't tell what
GPAs mean outta school sometimesanymore.
And, and so there, there's avariety of things wrapped into
this that make this moredifficult.
I'll tell you, Matt, one of the,one of the most disappointing
results I've ever gotten inhigher ed is when I came here
(36:58):
about eight years ago.
Our VP for enrollment and I, youknow, share this philosophy and
this vision for access andaffordability.
And we said, well, why don't we,you know, get rid of the$34,000
sticker price and just price it.
At 16, 17, whatever the actualnet generally is, and just be
transparent.
And it's not a great analogy.
(37:19):
Be the, the Saturn of higher edwhere there's no negotiation.
It is what?
Saturn's a bad example.
'cause they close.
We don't wanna close, but youknow.
You know what I mean?
Yes, I know exactly what youmean.
Yes.
PE people don't trust higher ed.
Let's be the trustworthy schoolwas the idea.
And so before we did that, wehired a marketing company to
come do a research study.
Course of, you know, what wouldbe the impact right before we do
(37:39):
this?
Well, the answer is whatfamilies want, expect, are
motivated by is a really highsticker price and a really high
scholarship.
The, the, the, I'm not kidding.
The, we asked families, youknow, would you be more likely
to attend a school that costs17,000 and gives you no
scholarships or costs 30,000 andgives you$15,000?
(38:00):
We test all these differentlevels.
We would be better off atOtterbein with a hundred
thousand dollars sticker priceand everyone gets an$85,000
scholarship.
That's what they want.
That's right.
And so we have this ill-informedconsumer base that doesn't.
Isn't prepared with theirunderstanding of what all this
(38:20):
even means and they're getting,we get students, I'm sorry, I'm
ranting now Matt, but like I, weget students here all the time.
We're like 33, 30$4,000, andwe'll have a student that we
gave a$15,000 scholarship to,and then they went up the road
to a school that costs$50,000and they got a$25,000
scholarship.
They'll come to us, well, theygave us 25 and we say, well do
(38:43):
the math.
They want five,$10,000 more fromyou than we do, but there's this
perceived value that isinfuriating because that$50,000
is a made up number.
It might as well be a hundredthousand.
And here comes the coach in methat's saying, I don't want that
kid that can't do basic editionof subtraction.
(39:04):
Go to that other school.
It's mom and dad too though.
Mom and dad.
Yeah.
Johnny got$25,000 to go toWhoopty.
Whoopty, whoop.
It's nonsense.
It's nonsense.
It's so nonsense.
But they think it's real.
All right.
Talk to me about.
What you want out of yourcoaches.
What, and and this can be veryvague as well.
(39:26):
Yeah.
What kinda leaders are youlooking for?
Because I, it was funny, I, whenI talked to Jim, Jim said, every
coach that we bring intointerview, I have put'em on a
whiteboard and say, explain tome your philosophy.
Explain to me who you are, what,what is gonna be defining for
your.
For your program, and I lovethat.
You know, I've, I've interviewedfor a hundred coaching jobs.
No one's ever done that to me.
What is your expectations foryour coaches in terms of who
(39:48):
they are and how they representthe university and what their
role is?
Yeah, well let's just start bysaying Troja is gonna do a
better job than everybody elseto begin with.
There's no whiteboard in here.
Whatever.
God bless him though.
So.
Well, you know, it's, everybodyhas their different way to
attack it.
That's great.
Yeah.
What I talk to coaches aboutand, and this is sort of
coaches, I think tend to bepractical people, right?
(40:10):
Yeah.
You, you can, you can talk up inthe clouds all you want.
They're thinking about on thefield, on the court, what do I
gotta do?
How do I, how do I run thisplay?
Like they're just practicalpeople and I love that about it.
And so, and surrounding talkingup in the clouds, I tend to
coach as about recruit, retain,and win.
Okay.
And these things feed off ofeach other.
(40:31):
It's, it's a virtuous cycle orit's a cycle that takes you down
into nowhere.
Right?
Right.
And so if you can recruit, well,then hopefully you're getting a
roster that has some talent onit.
And then D three without a fairscholarships, and let's pretend
there's no NIL.
That has always been, you needsome volume on your roster to
have some talent.
(40:51):
Yes.
Right, right.
I mean, that's just the way Dthree works.
And so if you can recruit.
Some students in, then you'regonna start to have some
success.
You're gonna build a positiveculture and then retain those
students, not just on your teamand in your program, but at the
institution.
Right.
And these things feed on eachother.
And when I say win, I alwaystell coaches I don't have to
have a conference championshipevery year, but we have to be
(41:13):
competitive.
Yeah.
No one wants to play for the ohand 30 team.
That's, that's, that's terrible.
Right.
That's not a good experience.
That's right.
It's not fun, it's notuplifting, it's not a positive
thing.
And so you have to be.
500 at least to be competitive,like you're not getting blown
out, you're in the mix is whatmatters then, right?
Occasionally run for aconference championship, that's
(41:34):
great.
And so these things can feed oneach other.
Or if you're losing program, andwe've had those too, where you
can't recruit to a losingprogram, students leave a losing
program.
The program gets to be more andmore losing because you can't
recruit and retain.
You've gotta get those threeworking in sync together, moving
up, not down.
I love it.
And it, it seems so simple,right?
(41:58):
It's, it just sounds so easy,right?
I mean, why, why don't we all doit?
Yeah.
And, and, and at the end of theday, where I am mentor coaches
is I go, you don't understandyour university.
You're, you're recruitingagainst yourself.
You don't know how yourfinancial aid works.
You don't know how youradmissions works.
(42:19):
You don't know the strength ofyour academic programs.
You know, I talk to coaches thatwin national championships and
they go, yeah, we're really goodat physical therapy.
Half my roster is physicaltherapists.
We've got a great nursingprogram.
Half of my roster is nurses, youknow, and it's smart, you know,
they know what they're goingafter.
They're not reaching for, forthings that are only gonna hurt
(42:40):
them in the long run.
So I love the mentality.
And I think the more we keep itsimple, the the better it is.
Thank you for doing this.
I know you've got a meeting andI want to talk recruiting with
you, but thank you for havingthis big picture conversation.
I know how hard it is to talkabout because we just don't have
answers, but I love the factthat you're looking at it from a
(43:02):
perspective is.
Whoever wants to come here,we're gonna give'em a great
education.
We're gonna be open armed.
We're gonna make sure that ifthis is what they choose, we're
gonna make sure they're notleaving here with a a hundred
thousand dollars in debt andthey've got an opportunity to go
have a career when they leavehere.
Right.
That's right, that's right.
And Matt, thanks for leadingthis conversation.
(43:23):
Thanks sir.
Thanks, Matt.
That brings us to the end ofpart one of my conversation with
Dr.
John Erford, president ofOtterbine University.
What stood out today is hiswillingness to speak plainly
about the cost of college andthe barriers that keep families
from even considering optionsthat might actually be their
best fit.
(43:43):
He doesn't sugarcoat it, andthat honesty is refreshing, but
we're just getting started inpart two.
Dr.
Erford comes back and we'regonna shift gears and he's gonna
share his perspective on collegerecruiting, what he expects from
his coaches, what he believesfamilies should understand about
the process, and how leadershipat the top can shape an entire
(44:04):
athletic department's culture.
If you're a student athlete, aparent, or a coach, you won't
wanna miss it.
For more tools and resources tohelp guide your own college
journey, visit coach mattrogers.com, and if you haven't
already, hit that subscribebutton.
It's free.
It costs you nothing, and itmakes sure you never miss
conversations like this one.
(44:24):
Until next time, stay focused,stay humble, and keep chasing
significance.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
Iâm Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and Iâm so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood youâre able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and lifeâs ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them weâve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I donât take it for granted â click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I canât wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.