Episode #132: Bet Naumovski

🎙️ Coaching That Transforms: A Conversation with Bet Naumovski

In this week’s episode of the Significant Coaching Podcast, Matt Rogers sits down with longtime friend and decorated Queens College Head Women's Basketball Coach Elizabeth “Bet” Naumovski. Bet is the all-time winningest coach in program history and one of the most respected leaders in NCAA Division II women’s basketball.

From building a nationally recognized powerhouse to developing All-Americans, Players of the Year, and high-character young women, Bet shares the principles, competitive standards, and people-first leadership that fueled her success at Queens. She also reflects on the relationships and defining moments that shaped her coaching journey—and the lessons coaches at every level can apply today.

This is a thoughtful, grounded conversation with a coach who has spent her career transforming programs and the people within them.

🎧 Listen now at CoachMattRogers.com/podcast

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Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Welcome back to The SignificantCoaching Podcast.
I'm your host, Matt Rogers.
When you've been coaching aslong as I have, you learn over
time that the world of collegeathletics is a very tight
circle.
You're usually only one or tworelationships away from
connecting with any coach at anylevel, and sometimes the people
you meet along the way end upbecoming far more important than

(00:31):
the job you thought you werepursuing.
I met Coach Elizabeth be Naskimore than 12 years ago during an
interview at Queens College.
I didn't get that job, but thatday I spent with Be created a
friendship that still standstoday.
Maybe it's her Canadian roots,but it is hard to find someone
as kind, as generous and asdeeply devoted to developing

(00:52):
young people as Coach Bet andher career speaks for itself.
The all time winningest coach inQueen's College, women's
basketball history, a coach ofthe year in multiple
conferences, a leader who guidedher teams to the NCAA division,
to Elite Eight, multiple EastCoast.
Conference championships,national rankings and seasons

(01:15):
that redefined what that programbelieved was possible.
She's coached all Americans,players of the year, defensive
standouts, and some of the mostdecorated athletes in division
two.
Beyond that, she served as thesenior women's administrator
shaping policy, supportingstudent athletes and
strengthening the departmentfrom every angle.

(01:35):
But what truly sets BET apart isnot the wins, it's the standard.
It's her commitment to teaching,mentoring, empowering and caring
for the young women she leads.
She's a builder of programs, butmore importantly, a builder of
people.
Today, we get to learn from her.
Before we begin, a quickreminder, if this episode
resonates with you, pleasecomment, follow, and share.

(01:58):
On whatever podcast platformyou're using.
It helps us reach more coaches,more families who are striving
to lead with purpose andsignificance.
Let's get into it.
Here's my conversation withCoach Bet Naski.
coach Matt, it's so great to seeyou.
You as well.
Thanks for the invite.
Can you believe that it's been12 years since we met each other

(02:21):
for the first time?
Absolutely not.
I was thinking about that.
I was, this morning, I was like,it's been over 10 years, so Time
really does fly.
It does.
And I interviewed for theQueen's job back then and, it
was hard for me because I was asmall town boy, and I was like,
can I move my young family?
'cause we had babies at thatpoint.
Can we, can I move my babies tothe city in New York?

(02:43):
But I just, I love the kids.
I had so much fun, just the timeI gotta spend with the kids
while I was on campus and theathletes, student athletes.
But I just, I connected with youand had such a great respect for
you right away.
So I've been following yourcareer and I'm so glad that you
had the run that you had atQueens.
Thank you for all of that.
It was, I enjoyed meeting you aswell.

(03:04):
I, listen, I think you'reoutstanding and I think those
who've been coached by you arelucky to have been coached by
you.
Some might agree with you andsome might the other, but Yes.
I that's how coaching goes,right?
You're either the best coachthey've ever had, or you're the
worst coach they've ever had.
Yeah.
There's quite a lineup, I thinkfor both of those.
You've had such an eclecticcareer.

(03:25):
And you're Canadian, right?
Yes, I am.
I love that.
Toronto, a very proud Torontogirl.
Very proud Toronto girl.
What piece of your Canadian DNAhas followed you to New York all
these years?
Oh, that's a great question.
I've never had.
I think the purpose or thecentral focus of sports in

(03:45):
Canada is very different fromthe us.
There's pros and cons, obviouslyto both, in Canada, sports,
collegiate sports, universitysports is more of an
extracurricular thing.
It's definitely more of adivision three model.
So I think the.
The goodness of sport is stillat the core.

(04:06):
And I think in the US it's,listen it's capitalism, right?
It's more of a business forsure.
There's more dollars involved.
So the philosophy behind it isvery different.
So I think at times I can't helpbut bring some of my Canadian
philosophy sport philosophy towhat I do.
And I think sometimes peoplelook, listen, I remember my
first year when I was coachingat Queens, my assistant was from

(04:29):
Queens.
She was a New York City girl.
It was her first time assistant,and I think after about a couple
months she looked at me, shesaid.
She said, you, you really needto change.
And I said what do you mean Ihave to change?
She said, you are too nice.
And I said I don't know aboutthat.
I said, it depends on who youask.
She said, no, New York City isgoing to eat you alive unless

(04:49):
you change.
So she was a little bit right inthat.
'cause I was probably a littlebit too Pollyanna at the time.
And definitely got a little bittainted by New York City.
But I think like a little bit ofa sport purist.
I think that's the Canadian thatI brought.
And the philosophy is probably alittle bit different.
I think it took me a while toadapt to the business side of

(05:10):
college athletics.
I think those, that part of yourDNA is so important to sports
and to coaching.
So I'm glad you haven't, youdidn't listen to that young
lady.
Thank you.
Get that outta your DNA.
When did you first fall in lovewith coaching?
So that's interesting.
I went to university, it'suniversity here in Canada.

(05:31):
So I went to university thinkingI was gonna be a phys ed
teacher.
I didn't have coaching in mymind at all.
I thought I was gonna be a physed teacher.
'cause I always liked sports andactivity.
And at the time, the school thatI went to, you had to take what
they called practicum courses oractivity courses.
Sure.
Two team sports, individualsports, things like that.
So naturally, I didn't go out ofmy comfort zone and I chose

(05:54):
basketball as my activity sport.
And the person who ran thatclass was our head men's
basketball coach.
So he pulled me aside after acouple weeks and he said, have
bet, have you ever thought aboutcoaching?
And I said, no I've, I have nointerest.
I've never thought about it.
He said, I really think that youwould be a great coach.
And I think that.

(06:15):
You would like it.
And I said I don't know.
I'm gonna be a phys ed teacher.
So we had, at the school, we hadwhat they called four strings.
It was you could go, you could,you did your degree.
So it's not like a minor, but itwas like you got a certificate
in it.
It could be sport administrationcoaching, athletic training.
And I think the other one waslike, sport administration.
I got a similar degree.

(06:35):
Yes, I know.
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
So he said, listen, I'm incharge of the coaching stream,
so I'm telling you if you apply,I'm gonna accept you.
And I said I don't know.
He said, listen, I'll make youthis agreement, apply, do it for
a year.
If you decide you don't like it,I'll let you out.
And I said, okay I'll do it.
Okay.
So part of what that entailedwas practical coaching.

(06:56):
And, I started taking thecoaches classes.
I started doing the practicalcoaching and, you were paired
with a college coach.
And my my, I was an apprenticecoach and I just started to
really fall in love with him.
And I started, and listen, Ithink everyone who goes into
coaching, I feel like you gointo it because at the end of
the day, the sport gave you somuch that you wanna give that

(07:17):
back to other people.
Yes.
And in taking those courses andthe experience, I realized I
have that opportunity.
Like I really love this sportand how it shaped me, molded me,
made me who I am today.
And I've had great mentorsthrough coaching and through
sport, and I thought, here's myway of paying it forward and

(07:38):
hopefully providing guidance andopportunities, same
opportunities to other people.
So that's where it started.
It's amazing how many coachesI've talked to over the years,
especially since I started thispodcast a couple years ago, have
a similar origin story to theircoaching.
How somebody grabbed him andsaid, I think you'd be good at
this.
It's, it's so interestingbecause I really wish that I, at

(08:02):
some point would've asked him,what did you see in me?
Because I really am curious toknow that answer.
But I never had the opportunity.
I'm sure you've done it now inthe last couple of decades Yes.
Where you've grabbed a kid andsaid, Hey, you should think
about coaching.
I know.
I've done that.
And they have Yes.
Hundred percent.
People that, kids that haveplayed for me that have gone on

(08:24):
to coaching I think a lot of itcomes down.
You almost have to be a piedpiper.
You have to be that person thatyoung people just will
automatically follow a littlebit, and they want to be
mentored by you and wannalisten.
You have to have that voice.
And I think you're, there has tobe that ability to deal with
chaos and.

(08:46):
To be able to walk through thefire without losing your mind a
little bit, don't you?
And I think you can see thatearly on in a 20, 21, 20
2-year-old if they have it ornot.
Am I wrong?
I agree.
No, I agree.
I'm gonna tell you a quick story'cause I think that you'll
appreciate this.
So I say this, like I reallywould've liked to ask him like,
what did you see?

(09:06):
And a couple years ago, Iremember, I forgot this for the
longest time, but when I wasplaying eighth grade basketball
no, it was ninth grade, excuseme, ninth grade basketball.
And listen, it was not, it was adifferent time, right?
For women, so we didn't havelike our boys basketball coach,
he just got inducted into theHall of Fame here in Ontario.
And we got whatever teacherwould volunteer to coach

(09:27):
basketball that year, right?
So we didn't have someone who'sdedicated to it.
They were just like, Hey, I'llhelp the girls out.
So it was our French teacher andshe didn't know anything about
that.
She brought in a couple of guysfrom the senior team and they
would help us a little bit inpractice.
And I still remember to this daywe were losing.
And she calls the time out andshe had no idea what to say and

(09:47):
I have no ill feelings towardsher at all.
She did the best she could andwithout her we wouldn't have had
a team.
So she called the timeout andshe looked at all of us I don't
know.
So I said, okay.
And I went into my bag and Itook out a piece of paper and I
was like, we're gonna go into a1 3, 1 zone.
And I started telling her thiswas ninth grade, saying, okay,
this is what we're gonna do andthis is your and a timeout.

(10:09):
The funny thing is she let meand I think about that.
Like she let me, and she lookedat me like, yeah, what she said.
So I think, I guess maybe I didalways have it in me and I just
didn't know.
But the greatest thing in theworld she could have done was
said, way to go.
That's right.
Listen to her.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(10:29):
I said, okay, that sounds like agood plan.
Now, I'd love to tell you thatthe game turned around and we
won it, but we didn't.
But a spark was created, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Broley, that's pretty cool.
I remember Jimmy Foth, coachFoth, my first year at Koch
College, I was on the basketballteam and I was like the 14th,

(10:50):
15th man on varsity.
So they had me playing with theJV as well.
So I would dress for both.
And we played Ironman, JVbasketball back then, we had
five guys.
We played 40 minutes and Iremember the first game.
Where coach just said he lookedat the five or six of us that
were on the JV and we're gonnaplay 40 minutes against a, we
were a D three, we're gonna playagainst a D two JV team.

(11:13):
And he said, get the ball toRogers and run.
And I was like, I've beenwaiting my entire life for a
coach to tell me that.
So I think there's those littlepoints in our life where we just
need someone to say, I believein you, and go agree.
Hundred percent.
It can be so insignificant atthe time, right?
Yes.
And that's the thing is itdoesn't even, like I said it, I

(11:36):
remembered this a couple yearsago, but I had lost that story
for a long time.
Yeah.
But you're right.
Just those little flashes inyour life that point you in the
right direction.
Yeah.
It's, that's what's been funabout doing the podcast too, is
there's, I'm like, that, there'sstories of I haven't thought
about that in 30 years, but atthe, something triggered it and
it brought it out of my memory.
That's it's what's really cool.

(11:58):
All right.
Let's talk about the great runyou had.
Your 2017 run was fantastic.
A lead eight division two EastRegion Champions, coach of the
Year.
What made that team special fromthe inside?
I've thought a lot about that.
'Cause you're trying to recreatethat, right?
And there's a lot of things andI think back at it and there,

(12:19):
there were just a lot of thingsthat, that we got right.
And I think part of it was I'mgonna start with we recruited a
core of four or five kids thatwe moved along.
For four or five years.
So they were with the programfor four or five years.
So they, so we had thatconsistency amongst the team.
They understood theexpectations, but they also

(12:42):
started to understand what ittook to win.
And I think the, one of theother things is we were
completely all on the same pageabout what our goals were.
They were not just trying towin.
That team really believed thatthey could win a national
championship.
I did not think that we weregood enough to win a national

(13:05):
championship, but I certainlywasn't going to tell them.
I did think that we could, b, aFinal Four Elite eight team.
I did I had gone to theconvention I think the year
before was one of the yearswhere division 1, 2, 3
championship for all held at thesame spot.
Yeah.
So I watched the division twochampionship game and I was
there with a coaching colleagueand I turned to her and I said I

(13:27):
don't think that these two teamsare better than us.
I think that we're at thislevel.
And going into the 2017 season,I told my team that I think that
we're as good as those two teamsthat were in the championship
game.
And they really wanted to win atthat level as well.
And I thought, and we had goodleadership within the team.

(13:49):
Like we had multiple leaders inthe team who were bought in all
of the way.
So they were bought into me,into my vision, into what I was
teaching.
They would know a scoutingreport through and through.
They would quiz each other onthe scouting report.
Awesome.
When you were driving, they'd bein the van going, okay, number
22, what did she do?
What did, and there, thereaccountability level was really

(14:13):
high.
And not just, me holding themaccountable, but they held each
other accountable to a very highlevel.
I remember the I think it wasthe NCAA East Region final.
And we were working, obviously,we went through our walkthrough
on how we were gonna guardcertain sets from the other
team.

(14:34):
And the first two plays out.
They ran a set that we hadworked on, how we were gonna
help in that set.
And we messed it up the firsttime and we all looked, I
thought whatever one mistake, Ireminded them what it was
supposed to be.
Next trip up the floor.
Same mistake, but that mistakecost our best player, who's
national player of the year twofouls.

(14:55):
Oh.
And and it was sister.
So she turned to her sister andshe said, we worked on that.
You are supposed to help onthis.
And what was special about thatteam was we got to a point where
I was just coaching basketball.
Yeah.
And I think that was the beautyof that team was I could just

(15:16):
coach basketball.
They took care of a lot of theother stuff.
Sometimes I would turn, I wouldcall somebody's name out'cause I
was going to tell them that, andthe captain or whoever would
looked at me and went like this,said, I got it.
I got it.
I got it.
Okay.
Okay.
That, that team was just reallyspecial in a lot of ways.
And it was like, it was thepeople, it truly, they were, we

(15:39):
had talent, but at the end ofthe day, they were really high
quality people of really goodcharacter.
It's amazing.
'cause I can tell you almost theexact same story about a group
of five or six boys that Ibrought in to Maryville, same
time.
They connected immediately, theypushed each other.

(16:01):
They got over some really bigadversity.
So we got our butts kickedearly, and by the time they were
sophomores at some point it justclicked.
And I would go to stop practiceand I'd have one of'em had
already stopped practice.
Say, Hey, this is what we'resupposed to be doing.
We're not doing it well enough.
We're not working hard enough.
Yeah.
And all of a sudden I could stepback and I wasn't coaching by

(16:23):
myself.
Yeah.
All of a sudden it was, therewas ownership all the way
through.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ownership is a great word.
And I found out that, we didn'tlose a lot that year, anytime we
lost, I think we lost like maybethree or four games that year
had great.
But I found out anytime we lost,they immediately when we got

(16:43):
back to campus, because I don't,I think we were undefeated at
home that year, if I'm notmistaken.
So anytime we had lost and wegot back to the campus, they
had, they would have a teammeeting immediately in the dorm
room.
And I didn't know about that.
I found out, out about that fiveyears later that they talked
about, they held each otheraccountable, but it was also,
what did we do wrong?
We don't want it to ever happenagain.

(17:04):
And then they would move forwardand I thought that was terrific.
That's, those are such greatmemories.
And it just, it and you talkabout trying to replicate that,
and it's so hard.
It's just so hard.
It's hard.
And it's become so much harderin today's climate.
It like to have a group of fouror five kids to stay together

(17:27):
for four to five years.
And I say that because we had acouple who, you know, were
injured red shirted, so theyended up getting five years.
But it's just so hard,especially at division two.
Yeah, because what I was findingin my last couple years, I would
say my last two yearsespecially, is I was starting to
feel like we were the minorleagues for division one.

(17:48):
Like we were a farm team.
So to get them, I just thinkit's very, you have to have a
lot to sell as a college toretain those students.
Retention, I think at divisiontwo is difficult.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How do you tell a lifelongmiddle manager not to take the

(18:09):
vice presidency job?
They just got offered.
How do you tell a lifetimeassistant coach who's won five
national championships,assistant coach not to take the
head coaching job?
And the kids are feeling thesame thing now, as I just had a
great run.
I scored 18 points per game andseven rebounds.
The vision, two level playedagainst the best players in the
country.

(18:30):
Country.
Maybe I can play higher.
Maybe I, I had a, I had anathlete come to me a couple
years ago and this is when itwould, it's, it I think probably
really hit me that okay, it's,times have changed and I don't
think that we're gonna be ableto recreate what we did.
Yeah.
Great player, great kid from agreat family, never gave me any

(18:50):
trouble.
Like she was everything you wanta student to be, right?
She's over a 3.5 student,terrific athlete.
Never gave me any problems onthe court, off the court.
Great teammate.
I don't have anything negativeto say.
And, we're heading into the nextseason and obviously she's gonna
be a big part of it.
So you're planning around her a,a central pork.

(19:11):
And she came to me a few, Iwould say about a month after
the season ended.
And when she came to my office,I could tell, I said, I think
she's gonna tell me she's gonnatransfer.
I could just see it in her face,something she was, I said you're
gonna gimme bad news today,aren't you?
She said, yeah.
And I went, okay, sit down.
So we had talked about it and Isaid, why do you wanna do this?

(19:34):
And she, at first it was like mydad really wants me to do it.
And I said but it's at the endof the day.
What do you think?
What do you wanna do?
It's your career.
And she said, you know what,coach?
My dream has always been to playdivision one basketball, and I
just don't wanna look back withany regrets.
I thought to myself, I can'targue with that.

(19:56):
Yeah.
I get that.
And I'll be honest with you, shewalked out my door and I
definitely shed a tear.
Yeah.
And when I asked her what do youwant?
She said, it's really hard.
And she started to cry and shesaid, it's really hard because I
really love it here.
And I thought, wow.
We've done everything.
Yeah.
Like she's happy, she's doingwell academically, athletically,

(20:19):
she's on a great scholarship andshe's saying, I love it here.
And she's crying as she'stelling me this but still isn't
enough for her to wanna trydivision one.
And I, that's when I realized,okay, things are changing
because this isn't someone who'sgoing in the portal.
'cause she's disgruntled, she'sactually extremely happy here.

(20:40):
Yeah.
And there's just nothing I cando to make her stay.
Yeah.
It's so rough.
Yeah.
I, and I think that's my big redflag with coaching again, is the
joy I got out of growing kidsand seeing who they were.
Were at 22 when I had, they werebabies and insecure and lost.

(21:01):
Yep.
Couldn't find their dorm room at18 all the time.
They're men and women and greatlives ahead of'em.
And you're seeing the composureand the maturity.
Yeah.
It's a challenge.
I, we're gonna spend a segmenttalking about recruiting, but I
want to get into it.
A little bit here.
'cause you brought it up and Ithink it's, I think it's
fascinating.
Have you found yourself over theyears changing how you went

(21:26):
about building your team?
Because I think when you start,it's I need a point guard.
I gotta go find a point guard.
I need a center.
I gotta go find center that cando this or this.
And you, and we talked aboutthat.
Four or five.
Group of kids and how well theymelded, and I had that group of
kids as well.
Do you find yourself recruitingpieces more than positions in

(21:50):
terms of how they can get alongand how they're gonna grow
together and how they're gonnafit?
Have you, has that changed atall with you over the years?
It, it did.
Some of the change was becausethe college was changing and
they retention is a big topicfor every college, with
everyone's admissions numbersdown the focus on retention is

(22:13):
becoming greater and greater.
It's just sometimes, sometimesyou have to, colleges have to
realize that part of thatretention is you have to spend
money to keep these kids aswell.
You've gotta do things that makethem feel special, that make
them feel valued, that make themfeel appreciated, that make them
feel that this experience thatthey're having at your college,

(22:35):
they're not gonna be able tohave somewhere else.
And I think sometimes that pieceis missing.
'Cause yes, they might choosethe school for the basketball
coach or the program, but partof why they stay is, do I like
it here?
Yeah.
With the college focusing moreon retention, it forced me to
have to focus on, what westarted to focus really much

(22:58):
more on kids who really wantedto be there.
'Cause if they really wanted tobe there, there was a better
chance that they were going tostay there.
But the challenge is, listen,like one of the biggest problems
is a lot of coaches aren'ttransparent in the recruiting
process.
They're not.

(23:18):
And I think that is one of thelarger issues in recruiting and
retention.
And I just really wish that AAUcoaches, high school coaches
understood really what they'resetting their students up for
when they're not beingtransparent about that student's
pros and cons.
Because listen, like I know I'mnot getting a perfect student,

(23:43):
especially a student athlete,especially at division two.
There's something she's not, andI'm not talking about the off
the court, I'm talking on thecourt.
Like one of my coaching friendsused to say, when you're a
division three player, you couldprobably do one or two things
really well when you're adivision two player, you could
probably do two or three thingsreally well when you're a
division one, you could probablydo four, three or four, four or

(24:05):
five, depending on the level ofdivision one.
And I thought that was a prettygood way of saying that.
Good summary.
So I know at division two I'mgetting someone who just took
two or three things really welland there's a lot of stuff she
needs to work on, but I wishthey didn't assume that I'm
gonna not recruit them becauseof the her weaknesses.
I am gonna recruit her based,depending on what those
weaknesses are in our program,what we need, what our fit is.

(24:28):
It just gives me a heads up onwhat I'm gonna need to work on
with that person and as if shefits into the puzzle.
But, we talk about mentalhealth.
I know I'm a little bit all overthe place right now, but when
you're not transparent as acoach in the process and you
lead a coach to believe that,hey, you're getting a, and then
you realize you're getting b,that's when the mental health

(24:50):
stuff really kicks in becausethat person realizes eventually
that she's in over her head.
And that's a tough position as ayoung person.
But to answer your question, didwe recruit differently?
We did.
We tried to focus on retention.
I started to focus more on,because I didn't know if they
were gonna come or they're gonnago.
So it was just like, let's getthe best talent we could

(25:12):
possibly get, and then I couldfigure out a system to make all
of that, come together.
Where before it was positional,I, it was, I'm graduating a
center, I'm gonna go get acenter, I'm graduating a point
guard, I'm gonna go get a pointguard.
But you had to, you have to keeprecruiting with the portal
because you don't know who'sgonna go on the portal.

(25:34):
You don't.
So I had to spend a lot moretime on recruiting with always
in the back of my mind going, Igotta be ready to fill that spot
re depending on who goes.
And that's what kids andfamilies don't understand.
If we knew you were locked infor four years, we we'll recruit
differently.
If we knew you weren't gonnatear your ACL your sophomore

(25:54):
year we'd recruit differently.
There's certain things you just.
You can't help.
Yeah, I think we all want a 12to 15 person roster, but we all,
we know the pitfalls of that,that I may need 18 just to
survive the season.
That's a really good pointbecause that's an example of how
we started to recruitdifferently.
Like my ideal number was alwayslike 13, 13 players on the team

(26:18):
because I would always say, oneis likely to be injured one may
have academic issues that takesme down to 11.
I can still go five on five witha sub in practice we could still
get ready for games.
And then it became, we gotta tryto get 16 people at least on
this roster because you neverlisten.

(26:40):
They're coming and going a lotquicker than they used to.
And then.
I was finding we were havingmore issues with injury
injuries.
And I think part of that is theydon't invest in training like
they used to.
So what, they work withtrainers, basketball trainers
more than they ever have.

(27:01):
But they used to go out for arun.
They used to go, they never didstrength training as much as we
wanted them to, but at leastthey dabbled in it a little bit.
Yeah.
And now I found we were gettingkids that like, never did
conditioning, never been in aweight room, but they work with
their basketball trainer a lot.
And I did find that was leadingto more injuries because they
were just playing more but notpreparing like they used to.

(27:25):
Yeah.
It's a common theme across allsports.
I have baseball coaches tellingme the same thing.
Softball coaches, footballcoaches telling me the same
thing, and I think it it alwaysgoes back to being a multisport
athlete.
Like when we grew up, you playedeverything.
Yeah.
You might love basketball, butyou were, you had a bat in your
hand in the spring or you wererunning track.
Yeah.
Or you were doing something togive those specific muscles a

(27:47):
break in.
I agree.
Different way.
Totally agree.
Totally agree.
I wanna get into Title IX alittle bit.
Yeah.
Does Canada have a version ofTitle ix?
Did they ever go through thatprocess?
That's a good question.
I'm sure that we have some sortof version, but that's what I
meant at the start about some ofthe it's a little bit more of a,

(28:09):
it's a little bit more of apurist, support here.
Because there's not, as, there'snot the same dollars invested
like the us Like I said, it'smore of an extracurricular
thing.
There's not the same TV rightsand things like that.
So there is now definitely Iwould say a lot of equity
between men and women.

(28:31):
When I was going through it, Iwould say there was not, but
when I got to college I neverfelt like the men were getting
more than us.
Yeah.
We practiced in the samebuilding.
We flip flopped practice time,so they weren't getting all of
the perks.
But again I hate to say it, butI do think a lot of that has to

(28:52):
come with just the dollarsinvested in sport in general.
Yeah.
So we don't we never really hadthe same.
Again we had inadequacies when Iwas younger in high school and
all of that, we, we never reallyhad to, We never had the same
regulations, I guess you wouldsay, with regards to Title ix.

(29:16):
It's amazing how many times I'lltalk to a female coach and
she'll talk about the problemthat they're having, and every
once in a while it'll be, butthe football coach stood up for
us, or my men's partner stood upfor us, because, you and I have
talked about, it would've beengreat if we would've got to

(29:38):
coach together and Yes.
Share that.
And I think that's a big part ofcoaching, is that shared
relationship between the teams,especially when there's that
men's and women's group that areplaying together, whether it be
softball, baseball, orbasketball, or whatever it may
be, or soccer.
How important was that for youwhen you were at, you were SWA
for a long time?

(29:59):
And getting coaches just tounderstand that and getting the
kids to work together and that,that student athletic advisory
committee understanding, heywe're doing this for everybody.
We're doing this because of thisthing we have on this name we
have on our chest that we wearevery day.
Was that important in your role?
It was very important to me.
And again, I think that's wheresome of my Canadian roots had a

(30:22):
strong impact on me because Inever felt those, if those
battles were being fought behindthe scenes when I was in
university I wasn't aware ofthem.
I never saw them.
Yeah.
I felt like we were treatedequally.
We had basically the sameapparel, practice gear, all of
that.
So for me it was bizarre thatthere were inequities between

(30:44):
male and female because I didn'texperience that in university at
all.
At all.
So I just thought it's a nobrainer.
What do you mean we have tofight for it to be equal?
Yeah.
So I was pretty vocal aboutthat.
I, listen, what are you gonna dowhen you try to champion things?
Some people love what you haveto say and some people wish she
would just be quiet already.

(31:04):
But it was very difficult forme.
And I used to say, I have a hardtime recruiting and trying to
recruit a female.
And when I know that she's notgoing to be treated equally to
the men how, and I'm going totell that parent, that family,
that I'm gonna take care of her.
So I do believe in being a pperson of my word.
So just things like practicetime.

(31:25):
I don't believe the men shouldhave their pick and then we work
around it like, no.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even I started to reallychallenge the conference and a
lot of the men's coaches didn't,weren't happy about it.
But, I got to the point where wetried to have equity because I
was really big on this.
I wanted to have equity in ourgame times.
Absolutely.

(31:45):
Sure.
Because what I was finding is,listen, we're New York City and
families.
Listen, division two is aregional model, that, and, we're
not ne we're not recruiting kidsfrom the west coast to come to
New York City.
Division two, it's a regional,so you're recruiting people for
the most part within yourregion.
Sometimes you get a coupleinternationals or whatever, but
most of the time they're fromthe area.

(32:07):
Yeah.
And I thought like it's not fairfor a male basketball player to
have and their family to have.
To be able to watch their sonplay more than their daughter's
family.
When our games start at fiveo'clock, how many parents do you
think are gonna be in the gym atfive o'clock?
They just finished work and nowthey're gonna have to fight

(32:27):
through New York City traffic.
So if we're gonna always be theearly game, these they're never
gonna have their parents in thestands.
Yes, they can do the live streamand all of that but why should
they, why should our men or ourplayer have that perk and our
women don't?
So I was successful and I waslucky because I had a female ad
and she said, you know what?

(32:48):
Bet I think you got a goodpoint.
So we would flip flop it.
Sometimes we played the earlygame, sometimes the men did.
And then some of the men'scoaches on the men's basketball
side started to complain that,Hey, like when we play Queens
why should it be different fromour other games?
We should always have the secondgame.
But on the other side, our men'scoach was all for.

(33:09):
And he said, I'm all for itbecause I get to go home and put
my daughters to bed.
And I never have thatopportunity.
And I think people don't thinkabout the other side either.
So he said, I'm all for itbecause I can go home and I can
put my daughter to bed thatnight instead of not seeing my
daughter that day.
So it was very important to me.

(33:32):
And I was an ad and I wentthrough this as an ad, and I
would have, I'd sometimes havethe girls say, we like going
first.
And this is at New York City.
This was, St.
Louis and California.
We like going first.
'cause when the men are playingafter us, the crowds get bigger
at the end of the games.
What's your thought on thatargument or that piece of the

(33:53):
debate?
So sometimes I would get into itwith my players because they
would say, we wanna go firstbecause then we go to the men's
game and we can cheer for theguys, right?
And I'd say, but you're not hereto be a cheerleader.
And that's a visual that I thinkit's time for us to change
because I don't see the guysshowing up or staying for your

(34:16):
games to, to cheer for you guys.
So what are we doing here?
And when I started to reallypush for the games being
switched, we were one of the topteams in the region and we were
nationally ranked.
And I said, listen, like I, Icould really be a stickler and
say we are the show.
Like we are doing way betterthan our men's teams.

(34:39):
I could make the argument thatwe should have the primetime
spot every single night.
That's right.
'cause we got to the point wherewe actually had a good crowd in
our gym because the studentsstarted to be like, Hey, our
women's basketball team ispretty good.
We should go check'em out.
The students in the dorms wouldstart coming over.
Teachers would start stayingsaying, Hey, I've heard about
the women's basketball team.
Let's go check them out.
So for me, it was like, whycan't, why sh why can't we be

(35:03):
the show in town?
Because our record shows that weshould be the show in town.
Absolutely.
And people should be hereleaning for us.
Yes.
So for me, it was just like, Idon't know, think bigger than
that.
Like, why can't you be the primetime show?
And if you're not hey guys, wehave something to work towards.
Yeah.
I've been trying to pound thatinto my daughter's head, it's I
think too often they have thisidea and young girls that.

(35:28):
They can't have what the menhave, it's'cause they're bigger
and stronger.
The TV money at the higherlevels, it's all a bunch of
garbage.
When I was at Maryville, thewomen's team, I think, I don't
think they lost the game at homefor eight straight years.
I think they went to thenational tournament six or seven
straight years in a row.
It was unheard of, it onlychallenged me.
I only felt okay, I've gotta getto the level that our women are

(35:50):
playing at it.
I've gotta recruit better.
I've gotta work hard.
And you went to that stretch.
I know there was a couple yearsafter you and I met, I don't
think the men won a game for along time.
Yeah.
Or they struggled.
They struggled.
There was a couple years theywere, they struggled.
Yeah.
So why shouldn't we have thatvalue proposition?
This team is doing really well.
Let's showcase them.
Let's, yeah.
And the other thing too is liketheir experience should be

(36:15):
equal.
Like your experience as astudent athlete at that college
should be equal.
And that should not have to dowith gender, and it shouldn't
have to do with sport.
PE people should be treatedequally in terms of how they
look back at that.
I always felt like you chose inmy last school, you chose

(36:36):
Queens.
And I really hope that when yougraduate that you will look back
and say, man, I had anexperience there that I don't
think I could have had anywhereelse.
But it's, to me, it was alwaysabout the experience that we are
providing them.
And listen, sometimes peoplewere with me on that and
sometimes they weren't.
But yeah.
But again, I think that's wheremy Canadian roots come in and I

(36:58):
just feel like regardless of,your gender, your race, what,
whatever, like it's theexperience that we are providing
for you.
Yeah.
And I do think thatunfortunately is changing and
we're talking less about studentexperience than before, but that
to me was central, I think forall of my decision making.
It's it at a very basic bottom,and that's Title IX is you

(37:19):
should have the opportunity tohave an equal experience.
Your coaches may be different.
One, one team may get a littlemoney for playing a division one
that the other team can't get.
There's some of those thingsthat we may never fix.
We never may never get to ananswer, but the opportunity
should be there to have thatequality.
Yeah.
And when I say experience, I'mtalking about the basics, right?

(37:41):
Like the same access to thetrainers at the same times of
the day.
Like you shouldn't have to go,at nine o'clock at night because
you are tennis.
It should be thoseopportunities.
You have an equal opportunity togo to the training room at a
time.
That makes sense of the studentschedule.
Yeah.
You should have you, your modeof transportation should be the
same.
It shouldn't be one person in agreat coach bus and everyone

(38:03):
else is in vans.
That's what I mean byexperience.
That what everyone's day to dayis as much as possible should be
the same that the sameresources, equipment available
to you.
You can't be, like one team hasa shooting machine and one team
doesn't.
Yeah.
Or one team has the top of theline shooting machine and the
other has the lowest model.

(38:24):
Yeah.
So that's what I'm talking aboutwith experience is your day to
day and what you areexperiencing day to day, what is
being presented to you should beequal.
I really believe that.
And I think the problem oftenstarts at the top.
You might have a brilliantpresident who never played
sports or never played incollege, didn't, doesn't
understand that what that'sdoing.

(38:47):
If there isn't that oppor equalopportunity to that experience,
how that's affecting retention.
Yeah.
And you've only got two athletictrainers and you've got 12 teams
and that's 340 some, 350 kids.
Those people are gonna get burntout'cause because they can't do
the job that needs to be done atthe times.

(39:08):
Yeah.
That need to be done.
Yeah.
It's such a, it's such a bigtopic, but again, like you
talked about in the beginning,it all comes down to finances,
it comes down to funding.
Where's the value in putting themoney into that?
And it's hard to always makethat argument every year.
It is.
And I think the trend, to go toyour point about college
presidents, but also collegeathletic directors.

(39:29):
The trend right now, because ofname, image, and likeness, and,
this revenue sharing model thetrend right now is to hire
presidents and athleticdirectors who come from
business.
Who, who don't necessarily comefrom athletics.
So now they're making, businessdecisions.
Yes.
More so financial decisions.

(39:49):
So the money is the center ordictating a lot of the decisions
made.
Where before it probably wasmore on academics and student
athlete experience because youwanted your students to have a
really great experience.
You want them to be there forfour years because you want them
to be alumni who come back andsay, I had a great experience
here, so I'm gonna, I'm gonnamake a donation'cause I wanna

(40:12):
pay it forward for the nextstudent.
Had the same experience.
Yeah.
But again, that's not happeninganymore when kids are
transferring 2, 3, 4 times.
Like what alumni group are you apart of now?
That's right.
So I think those, I think it'sprobably be gonna become a
bigger topic.
It's always been a big topic,but I think it's gonna continue
to be a, maybe even a greaterone because of the new revenue

(40:34):
sharing models.
I'm excited about where they'regoing.
I, I hope it's sustainable and Ihope it's, we always have agents
and the money, the big moneycorporations that are involved
in sports they throw money atsomething and all of a sudden
that great plan that we have isbroken up because they found a
way around it.
I'm interested what the next twoor three years gonna bring.
Coach I'd be remiss if I didn'ttalk some hoops with you and get

(40:58):
into hoops Coaching with you.
Let's talk about playerdevelopment.
Is there an underrated, sorry.
Oh, sorry.
Hands.
You got puppies.
I have a dog who bark everytime.
Someone, sorry.
Good we'll cut it out.
Okay, cool.
No worries.
What's the most underrated partof player?

(41:20):
Lemme grab her.
One thing.
Oh, go ahead.
Do what?
What's the most underrated partof player development that
coaches still overlook?
What are some of those thingsthat you're like, this is where
we were able to really grow yourprogram.
What are some of those thingsthat you've made some changes

(41:41):
with in player development?
I, listen, when the more youcoach, the better you become as
a coach, right?
Like you improve every year aswell.
And I really think the partthat, let me back up.
The last couple years I've wasstarting to get really surprised
at what I was teaching at thecollege level that I was never

(42:05):
teaching before.
And I would say that if I was tosummarize what parts they were,
it was in team concepts.
Decision making?
Yes.
Because so much focus is onindividual development because
like I said, everyone is workingwith a trainer right now, right?
If you don't have a trainer, Godforbid.

(42:25):
But like the understanding theof the game, the ability to know
what a good shot is and a badshot and what a good pass is and
a bad pass.
And I think when we when wewere, willing, winning at a high
level, that is also something Iwould say we did at a high
level, was they read the gamevery well.
They had a really goodunderstanding of the game.

(42:47):
Like just time score situation.
What do we need to do right now?
I found in the last coupleyears, like if I wasn't
explaining that to them, theyreally didn't know, but they
didn't even think to consider,things like, I would sub
somebody in and like they didn'tknow to tell that person, oh, I
have number 12.
You know what I mean?

(43:08):
So like that decision makingpart of the game, I think is as
bad as it's ever been.
Yeah.
So to me that is part of playerdevelopment.
Like I'm a big believer that isplayer development as well.
I agree.
One time, I'll tell you a quickstory, like I, I had a kid who
was very skilled very skilled,but really struggled to score in

(43:31):
games and so she comes down thefloor, great ball handling,
makes a move and just gets,stood up by the player'cause
it's the wrong move at the wrongtime.
So I pulled her over and I saidare you are you thinking about
your move ahead of time?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I said I think that you comedown the floor and go, okay,
that didn't work.
So the next time I'm gonna gotwo times between my legs and

(43:54):
cross over.
And she said, oh no, that'sexactly what I'm doing.
And I thought, whoa.
But I think she was just theonly one who would admit it out
loud.
And I had a post player once, Isaid the same thing are you
reading?
Like she's on this side, so gothe other way.
And she said no I can't do that.
So I just go, okay, the nexttime I'm gonna do an up and
under or the next time I'mgonna.
And I thought, wow.

(44:15):
So they're so skilled,dependent, but it's like the
wrong move at the wrong time.
So that ability to understandthe game, read the game, know
what the game needs, read thedefense.
Like people will come off andI'll say, do you have number 10
guarding you?
And they go, I said, you don'tknow who's guarding you, do you?
No.
But how do you know if you havethe mismatch or not?

(44:36):
So those like nuances, which Ido think very much are player
development, I think haveabsolutely been lost because
there's so much focus on justraw skills.
Yeah it's like cutting.
I'd have kids get mad and say,coach, it's our, the part of the
play is I have to cut there.
I go, yes you do.
You're right.
That's a part of our, part ofthat play.

(44:57):
But the person that's supposedto pass you the ball hadn't
caught the ball.
Doesn't have the ball.
Yeah.
I went through the same thing.
Yep.
They were looking the other way.
Turned to look at you yet, andyou'd already cut.
Yep.
Yes.
You were wide open, but theperson that needed to throwing
the ball didn't have the ball.
Hundred percent.
How do we get back to thoseinstincts?

(45:18):
'cause obviously we have toteach it.
It goes back to John Wooden.
Maybe we have to get back toteach the kids how to put their
socks and shoes on, the rightway.
I think it was Houston, I thinkwhat he said was really Samson,
I think what he said was reallyon point.
I think last year at the end, orat some point during the season,
he said the guys need to just goout and.
Yeah.

(45:38):
And I, like again, when I wasgrowing up, there weren't as
many opportunities to go out andjust scrimmage as a female
right.
But I looked for thoseopportunities and when I was in
university, I found thoseopportunities.
So I was playing a lot all thetime.
So I would say a lot of mydevelopment came in university
'cause I was playing so much andI didn't care if I was playing
against guys or with girls.
I didn't care.

(45:59):
The females now do not want toplay with guys in any way, shape
or form.
We did not care.
But they, I'll again, going backto coaches and recruiting,
coaches always say she is a gymrat coach.
Like she's always in the gym.
And then I realized, what doesthat mean?
Does that mean when you inviteher to a workout, she shows up?

(46:19):
Because to me, a gym rat issomebody who goes out and finds
opportunities That's right.
To go into a gym.
So you're just telling me she'svery, she's compliant, she
listens very well.
She's disciplined, but Iwouldn't say that's a gym rat
unless she was out there seekingopportunities constantly.
That's right.
So I think that they need toplay more because like I play

(46:42):
pickup a lot.
Yeah.
A lot.
And I would play against anybodyand I knew sometimes I was gonna
lose, but I wanted to getbetter.
I wanted to improve.
Yeah.
But the other thing is, ifyou've played pickup, and when
you're playing five on five andit's a true pickup where winner
stays on and the loser is off.
You might have to be off for ahalf an hour if you don't win,

(47:05):
because there's three or fourother teams waiting to get on.
Winning becomes more important,making good decisions becomes
more important.
But also conflict resolutionbecomes really important because
you'll bicker, you'll fight.
That was a travel was not atravel.
So those, that taught me a lotof the nuances of the game.

(47:26):
Again I don't wanna come off andsit for half an hour and wait to
come back on.
So you get really smart aboutwho's shooting the ball?
Let me give that guy the ball.
I wasn't really good shooter.
So when I would play pickup withthe guys, I played with a good
group of guys who, who would belike, we're gonna, we're gonna,
at the beginning of the game ifI had a guy on me who usually
doesn't come to pick up, didn'tknow who I was, the guys would

(47:48):
give me the bulk at thebeginning of the game because
the guy would be like she's agirl.
I'm not gonna guard her.
And then I make the first twoshots or three shots and you're
down three zip and now the guysare like, go guarder, because
we're gonna lose, we gotta wait30 minutes.
That's right.
So all those nuances ofunderstanding the game and
understanding how to win, Ithink you, you get from play the
game play, just play as much asyou could possibly play.

(48:13):
You still see it at the WNBA andNBA level.
There's still times when I'mlike, why aren't you cutting?
Why didn't you block your manout?
Why didn't you were right there.
Why didn't you set the screen?
Yeah.
There's still, you see it at thehighest level and I, I don't
know how to recreate that.
I, I, that idea of there's acourt, I've got a ball.

(48:35):
I'm gonna call some friends andlet's see if we can get some
games going on.
A hundred percent not becausewhen they play, and I would say
even more so on, on the women'sside, like when they do play
five on five, four on four, it'salways with an out, an adult
leading it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like it's if they would get outand they would play without an

(48:56):
adult taking charge where theywould have to, someone would've
to step up and take, take chargeand lead it.
I think that would solve some ofthe issues going on right now.
Yeah.
It's, you gotta have a love ofthe game too.
You gotta want it.
Yeah.
You gotta miss it.
You gotta say, that's what Iwanna be doing right now.
Yeah.
And if that's not in your heartand it's, ah, I gotta go to club

(49:18):
practice at seven o'clock, we'regonna do this, and this.
There's a part of that'smissing.
All right.
Yeah.
I wanna wrap up this segment.
Give a piece of advice to someyoung coaches out there that
wanna get into the game, want tocoach at the college level.
What are some things they needto be doing and thinking about?

(49:38):
Great question.
When I was first getting intocoaching I, so I just really
loved every part of coaching.
I have a library of books andarticles.
I mean like thousands of stuff,because I couldn't get enough of
it.
So I always at the beginningtook the approach of when I

(49:59):
find, when I get my chance, I'mgonna be ready.
When I get that opportunity, I'mgonna be ready.
So I think that's been a littlebit lost as well with.
The young coaches is reallystudying the game.
Different philosophies differentlike I'm really big into
defense, so I used to read a lotof, books on defense, people's

(50:21):
philosophy on mans defensebecause you take little nuggets,
you make it your own.
So I think studying the game,because it's become a lot of,
who, get on their staff so it'sbecome more of a networking game
than any, than anything else.
But I, I wanted to listen.
I wanted to be successful at thehighest possible level I could
as a coach.
So I wanted to be ready.

(50:43):
And then I do think that part ofit is coach as much as you can.
And I was always less interestedin the.
I didn't really care if I wasdivision one, division two, or I
didn't, I just,'cause that's notwhat I got into coaching for.
I got into coaching because Ienjoy working with young people.

(51:03):
I hope that I can make an impactin their life, provide a
transformational experience,something that helps them in the
next phase of their life be, Iknew that not everyone is gonna
graduate and be pro but again,what what sports was, what
basketball was for me, shaped meinto the person that I am now.
So I was just trying to shapethem into a strong leader or
someone with confidence.
So I coached anytime I got achance to coach.

(51:26):
So I didn't care if it was abasketball camp whether it was
on a university team, whether itwas a u like, I mean there was
years I was coaching threeteams.
I was coaching like on auniversity team.
I had my own team during theyear, and then I had a, another
team in the summer.
Because all of those experience,again, you learn something from,

(51:47):
and it helps you get ready,whether it's how you're going to
deal with a certain problem whenit arises you start to put in
your offensive philosophies,defensive philosophies, and you
realize that didn't work, so I'mgonna change it.
So that, that's your learningthrough experience, like for me,
I was, again, reading books andall that, but I also wanted to
learn from experience.

(52:07):
But I find a lot of the youngcoaches are like I'm not gonna
do that because I wanna be adivision one coach.
But you gotta you gotta testyourself out.
You've gotta make adjustments toyour line of thinking and
problems come up every year offthe court.
And you've gotta have some sortof ability to deal with that and
some experience to lean on andsay I did that, that didn't

(52:28):
work, or that led to this.
And so that would be myphilosophy or my word of advice
is just study the game, getready and coach anytime you have
a chance to coach.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I look back at my years as 16and 7-year-old teaching t-ball
and being able to coach my ownteam in T-ball and then running

(52:49):
camp, going to camps andcoaching kids I'd never met
before and coaching them forfour or five days.
How valuable that was topractice my skills and practice
my, where my voice was and whatvoice I wanted to have with
kids.
Yeah I love that advice.
I gotta ask.
And you know what, I'm gonna sayone more thing.
I'm I'm sorry Matt.
Like when the first time Icoached.

(53:11):
One time I coached at abasketball camp and they gave me
like the young kids.
And I didn't wanna coach theyoung kids, right?
Like I, I was in a coachingstream in university I'm ready
for some sort of elite that's,they gave the right, they gave
me the little kids and Ithought, all right whatever.
Like at the end of the day, it'sa job.

(53:32):
But I was surprised at how muchI learned coaching kids who
don't know the fundamentals.
That's right.
Because it forces, and I knowyou can relate because it forces
you to stop and think and gowhat does my body do when I do a
crossover?
Like, how do I explain that?
Like how do I teach?
So when I coached those youngkids, when I was first starting

(53:54):
to coach, that made me so muchof a better coach because I
really had to think about how doI explain this skill?
And I think it helped me be abetter teacher for when I did
get to college.
So that's what I mean don't passup those experiences.
It made me a better player onceI started college.

(54:15):
Yes.
Yes.
I was like, yes.
I didn't understand that before.
Now I do.
Now I, yes, my coaches werefrustrated.
Totally agree.
Totally agree.
All right.
I gotta ask you this.
I drop you in a gym.
I give you five 18 year oldswho've been playing high school
ball.
You got an hour to teach'emdefense.
What do you teach'em?

(54:35):
What's it you gotta play a gamein an hour?
Yeah.
What do you teach'em?
What are you doing today thatmaybe you didn't do 20 years
ago?
I think that I've just becomemore efficient at teaching.
And so my, one of my colleaguesused to always talk about sound
bites.
Like what's your sound biteswhen you teach, right?
So I think my, my, my soundbites, my keywords are more
effective and the way you teachand the way you break it up.

(54:58):
So for us, like we always taughtthis is your on ball defense.
This is all your off balldefense.
This is how you help.
At the end of the day, that'show I would package it.
So I think everything is how youpackage it and how you teach it.
So absolutely we're gonna, we'regonna ball pressure.
What are you gonna do off theball?
And if there's a baseline drive,how you help.
If there's a middle drive, howare you helping?
But that's what I wanna know thespecifics.

(55:19):
What are you doing on the ballwith these five kids you've
never coached before?
You gotta play a game in anhour.
What are you doing on the balltoday?
So we are, we, listen, I'vealways been a pressure type of
person, so I know other teamslike that pack line defense.
I don't like the pack line.
I don't either.
So I'm one of the only ones whodoesn't play the pack line
defense.
We're pressuring the ball andwhen I had that, lead a whatever

(55:43):
team we used to force weak hand.
But to my point about, notunderstanding, yeah, we started
to force everybody baselinebecause they couldn't, it was
too much.
It was too much, so we wouldpressure, we're forcing
baseline, we are trapping on thebaseline and then everyone else
you trap and drop and rotate.
Yeah.
So we're pressuring the ball andwe're trying to get after the

(56:05):
ball and we're gonna force thebaseline.
That's what we doing on theball.
I think about this lot.
I've gotten to the point whereit's force, I force everything.
Sideline, keep everything outtathe middle.
Do whatever you can do.
Force everything out in themiddle.
Yes.
If you're, we're gonna letanybody get in the middle, we're
giving them options where wehave to help.
Yeah.
We have to leave a man.
So I just wanted to get your, sowe're really big on no paint

(56:26):
touches as well.
No paint touches.
So to your point of No, nomiddle.
So we, we fronted the low posts,so no point, paint, touch.
We deny the high post, no painttouch.
We're trapping any live so thatthere's no paint touch.
Love that.
I love that.
And as a player, you want that,you wanna be coached that way
because you, there's instinctsinvolved and aggressiveness
involved.
And you and you're taking awaycertain things.

(56:48):
So if I'm forcing baseline or ifI'm forcing baseline, I know
there's only one place thatperson can go.
I know where my help is and allof a sudden I'm three steps
ahead just because I've madethat one decision.
So I agree.
I love that.
Agree.
Helps people anticipate.
You can anticipate your help.
You can anticipate yourrotation.
See, coach, this was my dream 12years ago.

(57:10):
You and I in a, in an officetalking hoops every day.
So Yeah.
We would've left, we would'vebeen gone home late every day.
That's true.
I dunno if I'd still be marriedbecause, your wife would've been
like, can you come home before11 at some point?
Thanks for doing this.
For those that are listening,come back on Monday.
Coach and I are gonna break downrecruiting a little bit more and

(57:31):
get her advice for parents andfamilies go in the recruiting
process.
But thanks for doing this,coach.
Thanks for having me, Matt.
I really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much.
And that's a wrap for thisweek's coaching episode.
I'm so thankful for myfriendship with Coach Bette.
It's amazing, the great peoplewe accumulate in our journeys
bette is one of those people forme.
Her wisdom, and her steadycommitment to the craft of

(57:52):
coaching are reminders of whyrelationships, not resumes.
Are what truly endure in thisprofession.
Come back on Monday for part twoof my conversation with Coach
Bet, where we'll pick her brainon the uniqueness of NCAA
division two recruiting and whatfamilies need to understand
about that level.
If today's conversation meantsomething to you.

(58:14):
Please follow, rate and sharethe podcast on whatever platform
you're listening on.
And don't forget, you can findmore tools, resources, and
[e-mail].
Until next time, stay focused onwhat you can control.
Stay humble and keep chasingsignificance.