June 27, 2025 • 61 mins
Building Championship Culture with Paul Svagdis – Westmont College Head Baseball Coach
In this episode of Significant Coaching, Matt Rogers sits down with legendary baseball coach Paul Svagdis, now leading the program at Westmont College. With over 850 career wins, 10 conference titles, and a proven track record at every collegiate level, Coach Svagdis shares the core principles that have shaped his success—on and off the field.
They discuss what it truly takes to build a winning culture, how to lead with consistency, and why Stephen Vogt, two-time MLB All-Star and current manager of the Cleveland Guardians, remains a lasting example of the kind of player and person Coach Svagdis develops.
Whether you're a coach building your program or a leader striving for lasting impact, this conversation is packed with insight and inspiration.
🔗 Learn more and access free coaching and recruiting resources at CoachMattRogers.com
#SignificantCoaching #PaulSvagdis #WestmontBaseball #CoachingLeadership #StephenVogt #CollegeBaseball #AthleteDevelopment
Learn more and connect with Matt Rogers here: https://linktr.ee/coachmattrogers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
I had a young man this year, sowe're leaving to go up to our
first conference tournament.
And he knows he's not coming.
He's at the bus at 6:00 AMknocking all his teammates.
And I, at first I was like, danggood for that.
And he was junior, and I waslike, man, I, what a level of
respect I have for this youngman.
We get back, the kids won theconference tournament.
(00:25):
We get back late that evening.
He's at the bus stop when allthe, all his teammates walk off.
And I told him at the end of theyear, I pulled him aside a
couple days after that and Isaid, Hey man you are an
incredible one human being andtwo teammate.
And the reason why this teamwins is because of guys like yo.
(00:54):
Welcome back to SignificantCoaching, the podcast where we
dive into the mindset habits.
And Hart of TransformationalCoaches.
I'm your host coach Matt Rogers.
Today's guest is one of the mostrespected leaders in all of
college baseball coach PaulSMUs.
Currently at the helm ofWestmont College with 850 career
wins, 10 conference titles, andnearly three decades of
(01:15):
experience across NCAA Divisionthree NAI and Division two Coach
Swaggy has built programs rootedin accountability, purpose, and
high standards.
He's also coached someincredible players along the
way, most notably Stephen VAtwo-time Major League Baseball
All-Star, and the currentmanager of the Cleveland
Guardians.
(01:35):
In this episode, we talk abouthow Steven epitomizes the
culture coach Swags createsplayers who never forget where
they came from and who continueto give back.
We also dive into how to build achampionship culture, what it
means to lead with consistencyand the leadership lessons that
last far beyond the field.
Now, before we get started, makesure to subscribe so you never
(01:57):
miss an episode, and if you're acoach, a recruit.
A parent looking for tools toelevate your journey.
You can visit coach mattrogers.com.
You'll find my books, includingsignificant Recruiting and the
Recruits journal series, theSignificant Recruiting Launchpad
plus opportunities to schedule afree coaching or Recruiting
session.
All right, let's get after it.
(02:17):
Here's my conversation withCoach Paul SDIs.
coach Fags, thanks for being onthe show.
So great to see you.
What a great year you had.
Yeah, thank you, Matt.
Appreciate that.
It was fun to watch and I'malways excited.
I was a college coach for a longtime.
I coached at Laverne.
I know you coached at Oh yeah.
Pomona back in the day.
(02:37):
I did, yeah.
Laverne, back in the day.
I always get excited when I seesomebody take over a program in
year one and they have thesuccess.
You had, I know you're gonnagive credit to your ad and the
former coach, but how did itfeel to step in?
I know this is the third orfourth new job for you, but how
did it feel to step in and beable to look back now at the
(02:58):
success you guys had?
It's funny you mentioned beingat Laverne when I took over at
Pomona Pitzer, our first season,we were eight and 32.
So this was de a definitely adifferent experience than that.
Yeah it's been a great, it's aneasy transition.
I, and I did, I took over for anexcellent coach who, who just
took over Pepperdine, Tyler Latowho he and I have gotten close
(03:21):
over this transition.
He really cares about the kidshere at Westmont.
I got to know him a little biton the recruiting trail through
the years, and so he's beensuper supportive of that
transition.
I think that's always key too,right?
When a coach leaves and you havethat coach that actually cares
about the kids and wants thebest for'em it, it made it a lot
easier for me to come in andcoach his guys in a lot of ways.
(03:43):
That's great.
Yeah.
It it's so hard to leave aprogram that you've built and,
but it's so refreshing when youcan step into a program that
already has a little bit of aculture and the kids know how to
work and how to care about eachother, so I love that.
Coach, I really wanted to talkto you because you're one of the
few guys that can say, I've hadsuccess at the D three level.
(04:03):
I've built programs at the NAIlevel, I've built programs at
the D two level.
When you look at your history,is there a common thread, no
matter what division you've beenat to build a program that's
healthy and consistent?
Yeah, absolutely.
Baseball is baseball, right?
Yeah.
Whether you're at the Divisionthree NAIA division two I
(04:23):
haven't, experienced as a coach,the division one level, but of
course I'm a big fan, so I watcha lot of that and I've coached a
lot of players from the PAC 12back in the day when I was at
Azua, that would transfer in.
So you see the level of talentand I would say to baseball,
this thread, I even at Tufts, soI was at Tufts for three years
prior to coming to Westmont, wehad two players on the roster at
(04:45):
Duke in the super regional.
So two guys that were incredibleyoung men and players for me at
Tufts that had one more year ofpost grad, or two more years due
to COVID and ended up at Dukeand had an incredible experience
and run there.
So I think the talent level, ofcourse, there's a lot more depth
at the division one, and then itjust starts to depth is a little
(05:06):
less at two N AI and three, butthe caliber of.
Athlete or the mental side of itthe desire of the athlete to
want to improve and be the bestversion of themselves is the
same.
Yeah.
I don't think the plan or thetheme of what you're trying to
do with the kids' changes interms of the skillset and then
probably culture wise, I thinkin order to have an impact or be
(05:30):
able to speak into someone in acritical way, you get to show
'em, you care about'em, and thatextends every level.
Yeah.
And especially nowadays, weprobably grew up in a generation
in the eighties and ninetieswhere the relationships weren't
as important as just getting itdone, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
As I tell you what to do, you doit the way I tell you, right?
That's right.
And you, if you went home andyou called your old man and
(05:51):
said, Hey dad, this guy's sayingthis to me.
He'd say, yeah, do what he toldyou to do.
That's right.
I don't wanna hear about it.
And we, and I don't necessarilyknow if that's right.
I learned a ton from my collegecoaches and.
Me too.
My high school coaches areincredible mentors in my life,
but this is a differentgeneration where the kids need
to know.
And you can see that, look whatJay's doing.
Jay Johnson over at LSU andthese teams, you see when the
(06:14):
coaches get to the podium,there's a lot of emotion there.
'cause they're pouring into therelationships.
Yeah.
So as the Pulse Vegas, that wasat Pomona Pitzer 29, 30 years
ago.
Do you recognize him?
He, yeah he doesn't exist anylonger.
(06:35):
All right.
Now I wanna know more.
Tell me.
Yeah, tell me how you've grown.
'cause I keep having thisconversation.
This is my, I think I've beencoaching for 30 years now.
Yeah.
So it's one of those things, Ilook back at that kid that got
his first college job at 26.
I'm like, oh my gosh, you werejust a hot mess.
Yes.
Yeah.
Same.
I was 25 I think when I got thePomona job.
Yeah.
Head job grew up in the eightiesand nineties where.
(06:58):
Intensity and just do whatyou're told to do is a common
denominator.
And my, I'm still very closewith those Pomona guys.
In fact, the Pomona pictureguys, my athletic director who
was the coach here and reallydeveloped the Westmont program
Robert Ruiz played for me.
Pomona Pitzer, and he was one ofmy guys.
That's great.
And so that's great.
They we'll get together andthey'll come to my house now,
(07:20):
these Pomona Pitzer guys withtheir kids, or, and we'll hang
out and they'll come to ourWestmont games and they'll go
Faggy, they call me Faggy.
You are not the same guy youwere when you coached us.
Adapt, right?
Yeah.
You gotta adapt to the times.
It's so funny when I, I have thesame relationship with my first
group of guys at Maryville andthey just tease me so much, and
(07:40):
I love it.
'cause there's just things thatthey remember that I have no, no
recollection of.
Yes.
And they come at me with acoach, you said this to me and
you said this to him.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
I would've, yeah.
Today's world.
I would've been fired in asecond.
100%.
100%.
And I also think you remember,you were 26, I don't know if you
had kids at the time, but I, myfirst, my daughter, my oldest
(08:02):
was born when I was.
28, 29.
So the first probably four yearsof my head coaching career, I
had no perspective on what itmeant to have a child, yeah.
And even now at 55 when I'msitting in a room now with a
young man that I have to have ahard conversation with, which it
might be pulling his startingjob, right?
Just'cause he's struggling.
(08:23):
I think about, I, my son's arower at Tufts, a college
athlete.
My daughter was a volleyballplayer in college.
And the one thing as a dad, Iwould expect is that coach
respects and cares about my kid.
That's right.
So that perspective reallychanged for me after having my
own kids and going, this issomeone's son, or this is
someone's daughter.
That's right.
I need to handle this in a true,in a real way.
(08:46):
But also to understand theemotions that they're going
through when something hard isbeing delivered.
I have a daughter and a son, I.
I say we were smart.
We were married for 12 yearsbefore we had a kid, so I was
probably almost a dozen yearsinto my coaching career before
we had children.
Okay.
So that perspective, it was aneasier transition because by
(09:10):
then these kids were my kids.
You know what I mean?
And you understand that.
But now when I go to her gamesit's so hard for me to watch
other coaches.
Yeah.
Especially young coaches.
Sure do.
Do you struggle with thatwatching other kid, other people
coach your kids?
I think I did.
So my, my son who, he's oldernow and he's again, he goes to
(09:33):
school in Boston.
He's back out in Californiaright now spending time with us.
We, he just said this to me theother day'cause I was making fun
of myself for being an awful dador something.
And we like to laugh about itand he goes, dad we've already
discussed this.
You're a great dad and you're agreat coach, but you're not a
great coach dad.
(09:53):
That is a great way to put it.
Yeah, I think that, that it's soperfect.
Yeah.
Because I'm the same way.
Yeah.
So I think I just think Iprobably with my daughter was a
little easier.
This was the best advice I gotfrom my wife when my daughter
was transitioning from thatjunior high to like high school.
And now it's okay, it's highschool now and you love playing,
(10:14):
so I'm gonna come watch youplay.
And I might not know anythingabout volleyball, but I know
something about effort andathleticism.
And, there was some momentswhere we'd come back and I'd do
the dad coach thing and it wouldget very tense with my daughter
who has a similar personality toher dad.
Yeah.
And so my wife pulled me asideand said, Hey, I got a question
(10:34):
for you.
Do you want your daughter to bea great athlete or do you wanna
have a great relationship withyour daughter when you're older?
And it hit me and I was like,wow.
Yeah.
I said,'cause I know, we knowthis athletic thing is fleeting.
It's for you the best of thebest.
And I want her to experiencehigh school volleyball.
And hopefully she, I want her toexperience the collegiate
(10:55):
environment.
'cause as it can be veryspecial, right?
Yep.
Yep.
But that was the best advice.
So you'll laugh at this.
So I post volleyball games.
I would go into my room and givemyself a 45 minute timeout.
The kids would be like, what'sDad doing?
Ma would be just like, Hey, heis just, he's chilling for a
little bit so that I wouldn'tengage in the whole coach dad
(11:17):
thing with my daughter.
Yeah.
And I'll say this to this day, Ijust said this to my wife.
I said, Hey, thanks for thatadvice.
'cause I have a greatrelationship with my daughter.
She trusts me.
She under, she knows I'm in hercorner.
And she had a, despite what dadthought about coaching her, she
had a great college and highschool experience.
So That's great.
It was good.
Yeah.
(11:37):
Yeah.
I'm the same way.
I've had to just tell her,listen, I'm gonna be a little
aloof after games.
It's gonna sound, it's gonnalook like I might not even have
been there.
Yeah.
I'm gonna be, I'm gonna bereally quiet.
I'm gonna say good game.
It was fun watching you play.
And that may be all you getoutta me.
Yeah.
Until maybe tomorrow and if youwanna talk more, I've had to
really train myself.
(11:59):
Yeah.
You I, my wife and I sometimesboth need a horse collar Yeah.
During games and after games,but it's we're getting better at
it.
I think that's the greatchallenge of being a parent of
athletes is, especially whenyou've actually coached, is
learning that, okay, you gottago back and go, how do I want my
parents, of the players I'mcoaching to act?
(12:20):
How do I want them to talk?
And you have to live in thatworld a little bit.
Sure.
Absolutely.
And they, I've noticed, and Idon't know if this is right or
wrong, but.
The parents do play a majorrole, especially in our sport in
baseball.
Yeah.
The mental psyche.
And so as I've gotten olderwhere when I was younger you
were like, Ooh, parents can behard, right?
(12:43):
Yeah.
Because playing time and yougotta create boundaries, and I
still think boundaries need tobe created.
But one of the things as I'vegotten older, I've tried to
create is this atmosphere forparents to feel like they're a
part of the process, but alsoseparate it from it.
Yeah.
Because you want the kids, Ineed our athletes to be in a
great frame of mind, if I'mfighting battles at two or three
(13:04):
different fronts, emotionally,that's hard to do as a coach.
Yeah.
Having the parents feel likeyou, not that I'm going outta my
way to make the experienceimportant to them, but whatever
that is, a tent time on the roadto take the kids out or, I've
learned that they're a big partof the process as well.
They are and they want to beinvolved.
(13:25):
Yeah.
And and when it's done it can bereally positive.
Rich Grower was the best highschool coach when I was a
college coach in St.
Louis.
He was the best high schoolcoach around.
And I would go coach at hiscamps and help him.
And I remember Rich did, thiswas almost 30 years ago, rich
did a communication guide forhis families at the start of
(13:45):
every year.
And he would have every parentsign it, this is how we're going
to communicate with each other.
And I stole that and I'vetweaked it and changed it over
the years.
Are you doing something likethat at the college level or is
it more just a conversation?
It's probably while you'rerecruiting.
Yeah.
It's probably in the recruitingprocess.
Hey I, because the parents arepretty, pretty involved in that
(14:07):
and it's probably a conversationof, and I know we're gonna talk
a little bit about recruitinglater, a later segment, but it's
probably more of letting themunderstand why it's important
that I build a level of trustwith their son.
And then I also try to identifyas a parent of a college athlete
to say, you know what I'vereceived, I receive emails.
Please don't let Jimmy know I'mreaching out.
(14:29):
And I, so I use that as anexample with some of our
incoming parents.
And I say to something to theeffect of, now I feel like I'm
in the spot.
'cause now I'm being asked to bedishonest with someone I'm
trying to build trust with.
That's right.
And trust is key to having anysort of success.
I said, but also as a parent, Iwanna protect you from with your
relationship with your son.
'cause I know if my dad did thatwithout me knowing.
(14:52):
That could create conflict in myrelationship with my dad.
So I said, just understand whenyou reach out in those fashions
with, please don't tell my son.
That's a, that's really puttingus all in a really tough bind
now.
And then I might talk to some ifyou need me to reach out'cause
you're concerned about thememotionally.
'cause we have a lot of, mentalhealth issues, with this
(15:13):
generation and Instagram andsocial media.
Our job is to work together tohelp your son or daughter be the
best version of themselves.
So you try to have that onhonest conversation.
I haven't run into too many.
It's easier when you get olderthough.
I bet you've seen this, yes.
Yeah.
I don't take it personalanymore.
Being a parent of a child, I satin my daughter's volleyball
(15:36):
games in college and.
My, her college volleyball coachwas a colleague of mine that I
knew 10 years prior.
And I'd be like, I wanna ripthis guy's head off.
I never told my daughter that,but I'm like, dude, my kid's a
baller.
You know how you do that as aparent?
Yes.
Or my kid's a coach's kid.
She gets it right.
She's all in on what the coachwants.
(15:57):
And I remember feeling thoseemotions never acting out on
them.
And I'm still close with hercollege coach to this day, but I
had that emotion.
Yeah.
So now when I have a dad that'supset about playing time, or I
have a mom that's upset that I'mnot playing her kid enough, i've
felt those emotions and I cansit there and go, I know why you
feel that way.
(16:17):
You should feel that way.
That's what a parent shouldfeel.
Yeah.
But I still have, I'm stillgonna make the decisions that
are best for this team based onwhat I think when you're 55 and
you've coached this long, it's,you're a little more confident
in that answer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was 25, I was like, whyare you attacking me?
Yeah.
So it's amazing what happenswhen we hit 50 as a coach.
(16:37):
I, and I don't know why thatnumber, but it just, it does
something to your brain whereyou're like, all right I've done
everything I've set out to do.
Now it's about, I want somepeace.
I want happiness.
Yeah.
I wanna be able to coach the wayI want to coach, but I don't
want any drama.
Yeah.
So how do I go into thisconversation to eliminate the
(16:58):
drama?
Said.
Said.
That's what I've learned at from50 on.
Yes.
Because I had a lot of dramaprior to that.
Yes.
I, I'm thinking of a story.
My best player, this was 20years ago, his dad called me
probably seven, eight games intothe season.
We're in first place.
(17:19):
We're leading the league, we'reranked top 20 in the country,
and his son is our best player.
And he calls me and wants totalk about how to use his son
better.
And I listen and I say thankyou, and I'll go, I'll take all,
I'll take all your words to, toheart and put some thought into
it.
(17:39):
This was a 30-year-old ver30-year-old version of myself.
I hang up the phone and I callhis son.
I say, Hey, what are you doingright now?
I know you're not in class.
Can you come over and see me?
He comes over and I say, Hey doyou like your uniform?
He goes, what do you mean coach?
I go, do you like your uniform?
Do you like wearing it?
Do you like how it fits?
Do you like how it feels on you?
(18:00):
And he goes, yeah, coach, I do.
I go, if you want to keep it,your dad never calls me again.
Yeah.
I get a phone call 10 minuteslater from the dad in tears.
Oh, wow.
See Coach, I'm so sorry.
It'll never happen again.
I was like, Hey, this is yourson's thing.
Yeah.
I'm never gonna yell at you.
(18:21):
I'm never gonna be mad at you.
This is your son's thing, and hehas to learn how to have a
relationship with you as anadult.
Yeah.
But this has to be his thing.
If he's got a problem, I've gotan open door policy, he's got my
cell phone twenty four seven.
So I want him to lead thatconversation.
So I don't think I would'vehandled, I don't think I'd
handle that the same way todayas I did when I was 30.
(18:43):
But I was pretty cocky backthen, yes.
Yeah.
And that's, yeah, that'sexactly, my experience as well.
Coach I'm gonna transition herea little bit.
I know you've been, and tell meif I'm wrong, you've been really
intentional about integratingyour faith into your coaching.
Yes.
Do you agree?
Yes, 100%.
Yep.
I'm not, I my, my spiritualfaith is really important to me,
(19:05):
but I'm not a very religious mananymore.
I was raised Catholic but thisis always a really great
conversation for me, and I lovetalking about this from a
coaching aspect.
When you think about a practice,a 7:00 AM practice, an 8:00 AM
practice, you get, what doesthat integration of your faith
and your spiritual self and whatyou want these boys to take away
from you as a man.
(19:27):
What does that look like at 7:00AM on a Wednesday in the fall?
Yeah.
I I enjoy being around the guysand and the spiritual like
development of our athletes.
I'm not a, although we'll doplanned out stuff'cause some of
our players will be like, Heycoach, can you lead like a bible
study?
Or something like that.
If the players come to me andask for that, I'm all in.
I can really make that happen.
(19:48):
I'm a little more organic.
Yeah.
And usually I'm a little more aauthentic in the sense of Amen.
Lemme tell you about what I'vebeen going through and how I've
been losing my identity andbeing a coach and not an
identity of a follower of Jesus,which this happens even at 55
years old.
Correct.
And I, you guys can wa you cansee how it played out this
(20:09):
potential weekend, right?
Yeah.
For me, maybe my energy levelget up, maybe my intensity, what
intensity's good, but what'sbehind the intensity, right?
Yeah.
And that's what I'll try toexplain to the guys.
I'm like, D daily I have tothink about, I.
I was created this way, whichthere's a lot of positives in
it, right?
I come to practice with energy,I come to games with intensity.
(20:33):
I hopefully you think I comeprepared as a coach, but
sometimes I start relying on myown strength and the strength
from my faith and understandingthat God is in control of my
life, right?
And so I think when the kids cansee Hey man, I struggle with the
same things that you're gonnastruggle with.
I've gone through it now, right?
(20:53):
And I look back at what I lookfelt like at 22 and now I'm 55.
Hopefully you guys can see thevalue in not making this your
primary like identity, right?
Yeah.
Baseball's my identity.
'cause baseball's gonna, any, ifwe keep putting our identity in
things that are gonna fail us,it's gonna be a long, miserable
(21:16):
life.
Agreed.
Yeah, agreed.
And I would also say to that Iget every day I have to walk
through that process.
Like I even struggle with itmyself spiritually.
I'm like, Hey man, why don't Ijust show up?
Understanding that every day,right?
Yeah.
Like I have to whatever have to,is have some quiet time, right?
(21:38):
Have some prayer time, just likeI gotta bang the weights.
I'll explain to the kids like,we're banging weights now.
I gotta bang the weightsspiritually, otherwise I just
start relying on my ownstrength.
And once I do that, I get verylonely.
Yes.
And so I just try to findmoments like that and be real
with the kids.
I don't know if it works thetoughest, when I was at Pomona,
(22:00):
when I was at Tuft's, I wasn'thired to share faith with the
kids.
And I think I'm a pretty, prettygood person that way.
Like I'm hired to be thebaseball coach here now.
Hopefully I'll live in such away.
'cause I know those kids aregonna struggle in life somewhere
along the line that I develop arelationship with them and that
(22:21):
they know faith has beenimportant to me without me
throwing it at'em or forcing iton'em, or constantly bugging'em
with it.
But just trying to live it outin an authentic way that then
those young men will think aboutwhen they're struggling with
their marriage, they'restruggling with their job, they
lost, didn't get a job, theydidn't get promoted, they lost
their job.
They trust me enough to pick upthe phone.
(22:43):
'cause maybe they saw me tellstories about failure and how
maybe my faith played intoovercoming that failure.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, exactly.
So I think those are the waysthat, that I try to bring it
into my daily kind of routine.
It's such valuable, it's such avaluable conversation.
(23:04):
Yeah.
And I think every coach.
Needs to have it because I goback to my failures as an
athletic director and, you'd seea, you'd watch a coach overreact
to a call or you'd watch a coachoverreact to a player.
And I think now how I'd want tohandle it is I'd want to go into
their office a couple days laterand say, Hey, you doing all
(23:25):
right?
I saw you do some things thatwere outta your character and
say some things outta yourcharacter.
You doing all right?
Yeah.
What do you need from me?
And I think as coaches, theolder we get, the more we're
doing those things, the morewe're watching how a kid's
reacting and how they're showingup at practice or how they're
making a change.
(23:45):
But I think we all need tounderstand that as we coach what
you're doing, what you're sayingis, I'm still that guy.
I can still overreact.
I can still get pissed off.
I can still get ornery.
Yeah.
But now I'm much better at.
Saying, Hey guys, I failed alittle bit yesterday.
I wasn't true to myself and howI handled that situation.
(24:08):
And I want you to know that I'mlearning too, and I love that
about you, coach.
I love I, again, I think wecould get 10,000 coaches in a
room and that would be a messagethat would change a lot of their
futures as a coach.
Yeah.
Thanks for that.
So I appreciate that more thanand I appreciate where you're
coming from with that.
Let's talk about your journey alittle bit.
(24:29):
You've coached all Americans,academic, all Americans, major
leaguers.
One of your guys is the managerof the Cleveland Guardians for
crying out loud.
Super cool.
I still don't believe it, butthat's pretty cool.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
'cause I, and I, for me, it's Idon't often think about my best
players, the kids that, gone on.
I think about those kids that I,I had a great relationship with
(24:51):
or, did something special.
But, you look at Mr.
Vote, man, he's, yeah, he's hada great career.
What is that like to see that akid that you coached and grew up
and now he's coaching MajorLeague baseball?
Yeah.
It's certainly it's a proudmoment to feel like you were
semi part of that process.
I.
I, I think what's super coolabout Steven and Alyssa's wife,
(25:13):
and she was a Zeus, a grad aswell, and an athlete.
And then he has three kids athome.
And my son was in their weddingwhen he was in the minor
leagues.
So prior to all of thisincredible success at the big
league level I think much likeyou were talking, we were
talking about earlier, therelationship that I would have
with Steven that I have now wasthe same relationship.
(25:36):
Whether he just started teachinghigh school math and coaching,
which was the path he wanted togo on, and and I think what's
fun about this too is we have alot of teammates.
That played with Steven, right?
And he's the same guy as themanager of the Guardians right
now and manager of the year.
As he was as a player and aclubhouse guy.
So we'll all end up down atDodger Stadium and go out to
(25:59):
dinner after, and he's just oneof the guys still.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's what's, thatgoes back to that authenticity
and the genuineness of peopleand then being a part of a great
team culture, right?
Yeah.
He still is.
Great about staying in touchwith his teammates and when they
come down to a game and he, Iget pictures from his teammates
with their son, with Steven atthe Angels game, that's so
(26:20):
awesome.
So it's that's great.
It's pretty neat part of theprocess.
But I would say this, and Ireally mean it it's, I had one
of his teammates down thatdidn't play at Westmont.
That I haven't seen in 15 yearsthat lives down in LA now.
And we were at Vanguard thisyear and we reconnected and he
said, he has a daughter thatplays softball.
I said, Hey, does she want to beour back girl down at Vanguard?
(26:41):
He said, I love it.
And so we reconnected.
She came in and she was our backgirl during the game.
It was wonderful.
That's awesome.
I'm just as excited about whatthose guys are doing as their
lives, as Steven is doing ashis, I think the cool part from
a baseball standpoint is,although it was, he was a, he's
a lot busier now than he was asa big league player.
(27:04):
I bet.
Yeah.
So there was, we, there was alot of times where we could just
jump on the horn and talkbaseball, and now I'm like,
dude, I don't wanna bug himright now.
Yeah.
He's in the midst of a,divisional run or they traded
somebody or, you know what Imean?
And he's.
He I would hope he knows thisand I know he does.
He's got a lot of good, hisdad's a wonderful guy.
(27:27):
His brother's a great guy who,here's a cool story.
So his older brother Danny, wasa captain at Westmont College.
Really?
Yeah.
And he played, so my, I.
They crossed over.
So when Steven was a freshmanfor me at Azusa Pacific, Danny
was a senior at Westmont.
So the first guy I called whenRobert Ruiz called me for the
(27:47):
job is I called Danny'causewe're all close.
Danny Gold, of course, who's agreat guy and very successful in
his own right.
And I said, Hey Danny, what doyou think?
Should I take the Westmont job?
And he's no way, skip, thiswould be great.
And I said we're just keeping itall in the family, in the
baseball family, yeah.
I love it.
Yeah.
It's such a small world.
It isn't it?
Yeah.
But that's what makes it fun, itdoes.
(28:09):
It's, there's, there, I have somuch joy in all the guys and
gals that I've coached over theyears, but when one of them is
coaching, and I don't care ifthey're coaching high school or
middle school or something,it's, there's just so much joy
for me when we get to talkcoaching together.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Yep.
Yep.
100%.
And R Rob Ruiz, my ed coachedSteven with us.
(28:32):
Okay.
Who's the idea here at Westmont,who was the coach here for 10
years?
Took him to the series, did agreat job.
I think that's a super coolconnection too.
He was there at Azusa when werecruited Steven.
He was a part of my staff.
Yeah.
And then he took over Westmont.
So baseball community is a lotsmaller than we think.
We come across people and it's acool community.
(28:53):
My college coach used to saythis, I coached college football
for nine years, collegially atthe D three level prior.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
So three years at Tufts.
And then when I graduatedundergrad, I did a GA position
there in football and baseball.
And then I got my head job atPomona Pitzer.
But they, the real job was afootball job and they gave me
(29:14):
baseball.
That's pretty much, that'spretty much what it was.
But that's small schoolathletics 20 years ago.
That's to some point.
It still is.
Yes.
That's exactly right.
And so my coach said to me,'cause he was a college football
coach, my college coach, JohnCasey, who's an A BCA Hall of
Famer case, said, I go, case,why didn't you become a football
(29:34):
coach?
You were like, great footballcoach.
Why don't you go, be a headcoach somewhere.
And he goes, he goes, baseballguys are just different.
They're not afraid to share thethings that they're doing.
They're not afraid to, football,I don't want to tell you how I'm
running this play because,that's my I have like in
intellectual property on thatand baseball.
(29:54):
He goes, you go to a conventionand you just start talking
baseball.
Yep.
About hitting or pitching.
And everybody's an open book.
Yep.
And and I, when I was younger Iwas like, oh, okay.
But now that I'm older, I reallyappreciated that perspective
that he had on that.
'cause it's very true.
Oh I've told stories.
I actually was just talking toKevin Brooks at Angelo State
(30:15):
about this.
'cause he was, he coachedbasketball, he thought he was
gonna be a basketball coach.
I told him I thought I was gonnabe a baseball coach.
Yeah.
And the way our paths go, but wewere talking about, I remember
at 2324 going to conventions andhaving Lew Olson.
Yeah.
I'd say, Hey coach, I got aquestion.
He'd pull me aside and he'dspend 30 minutes with me talking
(30:36):
post play.
Yeah.
He didn't have to do that.
He could have walked out andleft.
And, but he had a conversationwith me and Tom Izzo.
And so for me, that's how Ithink about coaching is how
important it's that we share andthat we,'cause you and I can
have the same understanding ofbat path, but how you teach it
is gonna be different than how Iteach it.
But the shared knowledge is sovaluable and that's why the game
(31:01):
just keeps getting better.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Yep.
I want, we talked about StevenA.
Little bit.
I wanna talk a little bit about,'cause I don't think we've
really talked about this on theshow at all.
I wanna get your thoughts on it.
'cause you have such a greatrelationship with all your guys
that have gone on to afterplaying.
How do you mentor kids to leadtheir life after they're done
(31:25):
playing when the cheering stopsand there isn't that big goal
anymore.
They, they've been playingbaseball their whole life.
Yeah.
How do we get them ready to goonto the world without that?
'Cause it's different.
We're not training every day.
You're not, there's nobodypushing you every day.
There's not a game to play or achampionship to win.
How do we prepare them for thatnext part of their life?
Oof.
(31:46):
I think it's tough to preparehim for that.
I think you, it goes back tothat identity piece that we were
talking about earlier.
What's my identity?
You're gonna battle that yourwhole life.
You're gonna go get a job andyour job's gonna come a priority
and your family might take abackseat to that.
Where's your identity right now?
I'm always encouraged'em to puttheir identity in their family
(32:06):
and who they are in theircommunity and Right, the
leadership component.
But I, it goes back, I thinkintegrity and being honest Hey
guys, you're gonna have a whole,you're gonna have a void when
this ends.
And your parents are gonna havea void.
'cause they been driving youeverywhere.
Arizona, Pacific North, they'vebeen all over the country taking
you around to be seen.
There's gonna be a little bit ofvoid.
(32:26):
But the skills that you'relearning, this is the stuff I,
five minute post talkconversation.
The skills that we're learningon this field, you're gonna be
able to apply in your life aswhatever your life is.
Doctor, lawyer, business.
Teacher, educator, some of youguys will coach.
That's an easy transition,right?
You'll learn that actually, youI remember telling, going back
(32:49):
to Steven Bo, he got DFA withOakland after having two all
star seasons, and we had a lotof emotion on the phone.
I remember sitting right behindmy dugout at a zoo and Hey,
coach and this and I remembertelling him, and I don't want to
jinx him right now, but I said,listen, I'm like, you're gonna
be a big league manager someday.
Like you had this was, and hestill had a career after that.
(33:11):
He had four more years in thebigs after he got DFA with
Oakland the first time.
And I said, you I said you haveall the qualities of being an
incredible manager.
And I said, right now, at somepoint, you're gonna have to stop
playing the game.
And that's gonna beheartbreaking.
'cause there's a lot ofdifference between playing and
coaching.
But I'm gonna tell you, you'regonna be more satisfied and have
(33:35):
more gratification from thecoaching component because
you're pouring into someoneelse.
You're pouring into a youngprospect, you're helping him
overcome adversity.
You're helping him get hiscareer off the ground.
You know what I mean?
And also being a mentor to himabout what it looks like to,
hopefully be a good dad and agood husband through a very
(33:57):
tough lifestyle, right?
In the big ones, right?
And I said, you are gonna enjoythat buddy a lot more than the
home runs that you hit in thebig leagues.
And I remember talking to himafter last year.
Now last year was prettyCinderella for him, other than
going to the World Series, butbeing the manager of the year.
And I said, do you remember Itold you that?
And I said, what do you think?
(34:17):
Do you love it?
And he is yes, absolutely.
There's, because you're giving,you're not taking.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Like sometimes when you're aplayer, even though you're, when
you're a part of a great team,you should be giving to your
teammates.
Yes.
There's also thatself-absorption of I'm not
hitting over 300, or I'm notgetting the playing time that I,
(34:38):
we've worked hard for.
When you're coaching, it's justall about the other guy.
Yes.
In a lot of ways, right?
Yes.
So I try to share those thingswith the kids.
But I also am honest with'em,you're gonna have a little
lonely time'cause you're notgonna not know what to do with
it.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
I very much it's, if we're notteaching selflessness as a
(35:01):
member of a team, you're gonnahave a hard time learning that
when the team isn't there.
Absolutely.
And that's what makes greatcoaches.
That's what makes you a greatcoach, is your selflessness.
You're always gonna put yourfamily and your players and your
program and the school ahead ofyourself and it's a calling,
it's a service.
Life.
(35:21):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'Cause we don't get paid a lotat this level.
No.
No, we don't.
And that's what peopleunderstand.
We don't, and we don't stop.
We work seven days a week.
We work 52 weeks a year andYeah.
Like you said you're on thephone after a game behind the
backstop talking to a kid thatgraduated 20 years ago,
absolutely.
Yeah.
You're always a part of thatlife.
That family is huge.
(35:42):
Yes.
They're always there.
Yeah.
My, my kids are learning thatthe hard way, you know about me.
They're, my wife will see thatI've got two meetings on my
calendar and they'll go, whywere you so busy today?
You only had two meetings.
I got eight phone calls and sixemails that I had to respond to,
yeah.
Yeah.
And it, it's the day fills upbecause everybody needs you.
You're the person they've beencounting on for so long.
(36:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
For sure.
And that's why I love it, and Iknow that's why you love it.
Yep.
Yep.
I wanna talk about high academicbecause you coach and not that
Westmont and Azu Pacific aren'tgreat schools'cause they are.
But when you're coaching at aschool like Tufts and Pomona.
Pitzer Yep.
Your talent pool is very small.
Yes.
Because it's a very small groupof kids that could get in the
(36:24):
door.
Yep.
What did you learn aboutbuilding a program at those two
schools that have shaped how youbuild it now?
Scholarship level.
Yeah.
I think, yeah.
I in order you, in order to wingames right there, it's what
comes first?
Do you build great culture andthen you win games?
(36:45):
Or is winning games a part ofbuilding great culture and, but
winning games is definitely apart of it, right?
And I've always said this evenas a Christian, like to my wife,
when I was younger, when we wereeight and 32 my first year, I'm
like, babe, like you gotta startpraying.
Because if I played for a coachthat was eight and 32, I would
not listen to that guy.
(37:07):
So I'm like, I need, we need towin some games, right?
Yes.
So when you're at these highacademic elite schools, like I
think you have to really findthat diamond in the rough,
right?
It probably at the division onelevel, maybe they're a two to
three tool player.
Does that make sense?
And yes.
At my level here, they're like atwo to one tool guy.
(37:29):
You gotta find those one toolguys that you say, man, I, okay,
that guy's six three and he isgot a short swing.
But he's, a buck 70, he's askinny kid playing third base,
and his arm is suspect overthere.
Like from a baseball standpoint.
Yeah.
And then you have to projectout.
We'll be, we'll get in theweight room, we'll get him to
(37:50):
200 pounds and that guy's gonnabe a good player.
And then he has to fit thatacademic component.
Is he a 1450 SAT?
Is he a four oh student?
Is he a AP guy?
But I think one of the thingsthat we tried to do at Pomona
was find those kids that hadthat one, something that I felt
like, and for me it was always,I would wa either pitching wise,
(38:13):
just watch how their arm worked.
Very simple.
We didn't have data back then.
And he, let's be honest, even ifwe had data what guys?
That the da, the data guide dothat I want, am I gonna get at
Pomona Pitzer versus Cal StateFullton.
They're gonna get that guybefore I get him, or Harvard's
gonna get that guy before PomonaCollege gets him, or Stanford's
gonna take that guy off of databefore I get him.
(38:36):
So for a long time it was moreof Hey, does his arm work well?
And then from an offensivestandpoint, did he show some
semblance of bat speed with hishands?
And I felt like if a kid's handswere good, even if he was a
defensive kid, if I thought hehad quick hands, I was like, oh,
I can teach him how to hit atthis level.
(38:57):
Do you know what I mean?
Where now as I've moved to Azusaand now I have scholarship and
I'm at Westmont, there's there,maybe now I'm looking at their
speed now with that bat speed,or I'm looking at their arm
strength with that bat speed,I'm looking for one more tool.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
You.
(39:19):
You're always looking for thatmultiple multiplier.
Exactly.
You know that kid can give youone extra thing.
But it sounds like for you, it'sall about development.
No matter what level you're at,100%, you're just able to
recruit a little bit higherlevel or somebody a little
faster, a little stronger, alittle bigger, but the mindset
(39:41):
is still, they've got the toolsI need, but they've got the
tools I can develop as well.
Absolutely.
Like I, and I really have thismindset and I think it's, I.
This development growth mindsetstarting over at Pomona College.
And going from eight and 32 andprogram never really having a
lot of success to now Frank osi,I don't know if you've heard of
(40:03):
Frank, he took over from a,taking him to the World Series,
like Yeah, they're good baseballteam.
There's really good players onthat team that could play for
me, that could go play divisionone.
Like I said, my Tufts guys wereon the Duke team and Uni
University of Connecticut, whichis a regional team in
Northwestern.
Yeah.
So as coaching at the mid levelsyou have kids that then have
(40:24):
developed'cause you, you sawsomething in them that they may
not have seen in themselves atthe time.
Yeah.
And then you believed in thatskillset and then you developed
it.
So there was a book I read, Iwas in a doctoral program when I
was at Pomona.
I didn't finish.
They said they gave you a bookand they said, Hey, 80% of
people don't.
Finished doctoral programs and Iwas like, I'm not gonna be that
(40:45):
guy.
I was that guy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My second child came along and Iwas like, I ain't doing it, but
we, yeah, I was same way.
And you're coaching and allthat.
But I got pretty far along.
There was a book that was it'scalled Strengths Finder and it's
like a personality task, blah,blah, blah.
I know that book.
Yeah.
One of the things I brought intomy coaching was this idea that
(41:05):
we all have our strengths and weshould focus on our strengths,
not necessarily our weaknesses.
And and I may be butchering thepremise of Strength Finders, but
it hit me as a coach.
If I have a plus offensive or agood offensive kid and I can
make him a plus offensive kid, Ionly have so many ti, so much
(41:25):
time in the day to do that.
So let me try to take the goodhitter, let's say, and turn him
into a plus hitter.
If I'm spending time and he'snot a good defender, I need to
find a space where he can bemaybe average as a defender or
find a position where averagecan play with his plus offense.
And I might flip that with adefensive kid.
(41:46):
Make sense?
Yeah he's a plus defender in themiddle infield, he's got great
hands.
So I'm gonna spend a lot of timeon making that strength.
Even making it elite.
Yeah.
Because that elite strength'sgonna help us win games.
And my job is to pu put him intothe puzzle that creates a
winning team.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
(42:06):
Very much and I think when youand I grew up, I think that's
the way Major League Baseballwas.
I that's you weren't expectingyour shortstop to hit 20 home
runs and get 80 rbis.
If he finished the season withnine airs and batted 2 45, you
were happy.
Yep.
That to balls and maybe war andstuff like that.
I'm not big data guy.
I'm old, so I'm trying to figureit out'cause young kids like it,
(42:29):
but maybe those things factor innow, but I'll take the Wizard of
Oz any day.
Yeah, absolutely.
Me too.
Yeah, because I know I'm, he'sgonna make every play.
Plus he's gonna get us plays,I'm a Cub fan, so I talk about
Whitey, Whitey way too much, andthose 82 Cardinals.
Yeah.
It's hard for me to talk about,but to me that was, that's where
baseball was at its heyday.
(42:50):
You had a lead off hitter withgreat speed.
You had a guy that could hitbehind a runner at number two.
Yeah.
You had a guy that hit withaverage and you could hit with a
little power, and then you hadyour big hammer at number four.
And it's it's hard for me towatch Kyle Schwarber about
leadoff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just it's a challenge forme, the way baseball's changed.
I understand the analytics, Iget it.
But it's those things I'malways, I'm constantly learning
(43:14):
and trying to adapt.
Coach, this has been a lot offun.
I could talk forever with you.
I want to end this coachingsession with some quick hitters,
but I got one, one more questionfor you, and I want you to think
about talking to young coaches.
What advice would you give toyoung coaches who are trying to
build their voice, andespecially those who want to
lead, lead a program for a longtime and really grow in that
(43:37):
program?
What advice would you give?
Yeah, I would say.
Find it's a fine line betweenbeing a buddy with a player and
being someone that cares about aplayer, but drawing the line,
yeah.
I think the, in this day and agewith social media and being a
(43:57):
young coach with young athletes,I think sometimes we, I would
just encourage a young coachthat I have.
There's something differentbetween the coaching staff and
the players, and I care aboutyou and I love you, and I'm
gonna work my tail off for youand I would hope you're gonna
(44:18):
work your tail off for yourteammates, but we're not buddies
yet.
French buddies happen when yougraduate and I have you over my
house and take you out todinner, and, you know what I
mean?
At that point, I'm not yourcoach anymore.
I'm not your boss, because Ithink when those lines get
blurred.
You as a young coach lose Ithink some sort of emotional
(44:41):
control of your team.
Agreed.
That's great advice and that's atough one.
'cause I'm also saying berelational.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
It, there, there is the line.
And finding that line is a bigstep for a lot of coaches.
And I, I just, I did a coachingsession with a brand new college
coach before you and I hopped ontoday and I told her the same
(45:01):
thing.
I go, you gotta find your voice.
I go I've called you coach acouple times since we got on the
phone.
And I go, how did that feel tohear me call you coach?
She goes, it's still a littlestrange.
Yeah.
And I go you gotta learn to ownthat.
You gotta learn to love that'swho you are.
Sure.
These kids are looking at youfor advice and direction and
it's hard to be their bestfriend until you figure out how
(45:25):
that role is for you.
Absolutely.
You know what I mean?
I did a you'll, I did this whenI was at Azusa with my ad.
I was trying to get a littlebigger piece of the pie, right?
Yeah.
And I had just turned 50, Ithink it was, and it was right
during COVID.
And I did research on on coachCorman at Vandy Bill Belichick.
I'm a huge Patriots fan.
(45:45):
I think.
Coach Greg Popovich.
Yeah.
Who actually coached at PomonaCollege.
Another Pomona Pitzer alone.
Yeah.
Pomona Pitzer.
Yeah.
Great guy.
Yeah.
And one of my highlights of mycareer was at a Hall of Fame
dinner and Coach Pop is thereand he's getting inducted into
the Hall of Fame.
And I get to meet him, ofcourse.
And he had just won his second,I think, NBA championship.
And he and I would bring mycaptains to these things.
(46:08):
'cause I'm like, this isincredible.
I want you to hear from Love it.
Highly successful people thatwere here, that loved being here
at D three.
And Coach Pop said, he goes, Ihave one trophy in my office.
He had already won two.
And he goes, it was sittingbehind me and he goes, it was
the net when I won my firstkayak championship at Pomona
College.
Love it.
(46:28):
Yeah.
And I was like, dude, he's wontwo NBA championships.
He's coaching the Admiral andall these incredible guys.
But that experience for him wasso meaningful.
Yeah.
So anyways, I did all this stuff'cause I was going back to young
coaches and older coaches andyoung coaches can certainly have
done incredible things inbaseball and basketball and
(46:48):
football and things like that.
It's definitely become a youngwoman and man's game in a lot of
Yes.
Because of the relationshipstuff.
But my soul goal was like, toget my ad to buy in, I'm 50 now
at Azusa.
This is, I'm in my prime as acoach and I went through Mandy's
success at the World Serieshappened after Coach Corbin was
50 and won his first world SuperBowl at 52 and Pop and I, and
(47:13):
then there was, I think JoeTorry, I probably had Joe Torry,
yeah.
His first World series.
And I'm like, Hey Gary, I'm goodfriends with him.
I'm like, I just turned 50 alland then I took all these
coaches and they said they hadgreat general managers that were
all Hall of Famers.
Like your ad.
And I'm like, we got this now wegot the next 10 years to take.
Azusa Pacific to a nationalchampionship.
(47:34):
It's just gonna require somemoney.
I didn't get it, but it was agreat presentation, great sales
pitch.
Yeah, I love it.
But I do think there's somethingabout, my wife will say this
those guys, you learn from yourmistakes, you learn from your
failures.
And I also think, obviouslyCoach Corbin is the class of
college baseball and incredibleguy.
(47:55):
I think he knows how to createrelationships and let his
players know what he cares abouthim.
But I think when you walk on thefield, there's such a high level
of respect for the expectationthat he probably has that they
know he cares about him, butthey also know.
There's a little bit of a linethere, and I wouldn't know if
Coach Corbin would say that, butthat's what I would observe
probably.
And why he's so successful.
(48:17):
I agree.
I agree.
And I'm learning too.
I see coaches that are able tostra that line and really have
great success.
And I don't know if it's how Iwas raised or how I grew up in
the game.
It's just it's still a challengefor me.
I, like you said, when theygraduate I'm okay getting rid of
the coach hat, yeah.
Yeah.
But while they're playing forme, it's, that line's still
(48:39):
valuable.
It's still important.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Coach you up for some quickhitters.
Some fun.
Sure.
Some fun questions.
Absolutely.
You'll like these.
Okay.
Best baseball movie of all time.
Oh.
Field of Dreams.
I'm with you There.
Anything with Kevin Costner in abaseball, I'm happy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know you've already mentionedthe strengths finders there one
(49:01):
book every Coach should read.
Ooh, That's a tough one.
I should have, you probably sentme this question.
I should have thought about it.
Every we can come back to it.
Yeah, we'll come back to thatone.
I read a bunch of books.
I've read a bunch of books onleadership.
(49:22):
I like the re Speed of Trust wasbut I don't know if it's a book
everyone should read, but it'scalled The Speed of Trust and I
think Covey was the author and Ithink I, I've, that one kind of
gave me a little bit of man, ifI'm not creating trust amongst
my athletes.
I'm at a zero.
I'm starting from scratch.
(49:42):
And so it sounds like a prettydarn good book for young people
to read.
Young coaches.
Yeah.
It was more, it was a book onbasically you have to create
trust in your organization inorder to move forward and excel
and then collaborate.
Yeah.
And so when I read that I wasprobably 38 years old, I was
like, am I creating trust whenI'm just hammering these guys
emotionally?
(50:03):
Yeah.
That I gotta be able to be alittle more authentic.
Some of those words we usedearlier.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have to find ways and not, I'mnot one of those guys.
Let's do a trust fall.
You know what I mean?
I'm not gonna do a retreat.
Yeah.
But who I am as a person intheir life.
Am I there?
Am I trustworthy?
Is coach, is his word does hecare?
So those things really playedinto it early on when I hit that
(50:25):
crux of my career at 36 yearsold.
Yeah.
I love that.
I'm gonna check that book out,that sounds.
Like the ideal thing for atleast the thought process, the
speed of trust, and howimportant trust is in those
relationships.
I love that.
Yep.
What's the first thing younotice when you were recruiting
a player?
And this is a good transition towhat we're gonna talk about
next.
(50:47):
I'm sorry.
I was looking it up.
It is Steven Covey.
Love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can't go wrong with Coveybooks.
Yeah.
What's the first thing younotice when you're recruiting a
player?
Oh.
And maybe a better question tostart with.
Do you recruit?
No, I think you recruityourself.
I, the loaded question for me,the first thing I notice is
size.
Okay.
See, I that, that doesn't makesense.
(51:08):
So the first thing, your eyesgravitate to a six three guy
hitting left-handed.
Yeah.
Or a six three guy on the hill.
Yeah.
It just, it is what it is.
Except that, but that I.
I just recruited two middleinfielders this year in our
first recruit class, and I thinkthey're dynamic athletes, right?
Yeah.
And so it's just because I mightgo to the field and my eyes
(51:32):
gravitate to the six three kid.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Doesn't mean my best playershave been guys that have been
undersized.
Yeah.
This is baseball's the equalizersize actually doesn't always
matter.
Does is speed the thing thatgets you hooked though?
Size might catch your eye.
Is it the speed and theathleticism that you I think
(51:53):
athleticism.
I think athleticism, although Irun a lot more as a coach
strategically now.
Yeah.
I think because I got taughtfrom a former teammate of mine
when I went back to Tufts.
Incredible guy.
He came on board with me, one ofthe best coaching experiences of
my life.
He was great at the base runninggame Mike Ward.
Very good friends with him andMike taught me a running game
(52:14):
and I've like literallyimplemented that.
So it goes back to you evolvenow.
I kinda, if I can find a guythat can run, I know I've been
taught from Mike a way to teachthem how to do this
successfully, that's gonna be anasset for my team when I, that's
huge.
When I was younger, I might'vesaid, ah, you don't have to run
hard if you put it on the otherside of the fence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(52:35):
Now I'm looking for that dualthreat guy.
Yeah.
I love how it's coming back.
We talked about the earlyeighties and how things were, I
feel like speed is coming backto the game.
Yeah.
It's and maybe we needed toshorten the, make the bases
bigger and change some of therules at the major league
baseball to do it.
But you're starting to see Yeahspeed is so huge.
I see.
In the big leagues.
I, one of the things with Voda,I would be like, I te I'll text
(52:57):
him'cause I'm watching thegames.
I'm like, Hey, you guys areripping third base now.
Huh?
Big leagues are a littledifferent.
And he was, yeah, he was safetysqueezing.
They were playing some smallball last year in that run.
Love it.
And he was like, good for you.
That's baseball, right?
Favorite ballpark you've evercoached in?
Oh, I don't even wanna say thison here.
(53:19):
Point Loma is pretty, or maybeyour favorite ballpark you like
to visit.
Point Loma is pretty nice.
I used to kid around with myAzusa guys.
I was like, Hey man.
If it was, shoot, Jay Johnsonwas there when I was at Jay
Johnson with LSU was there when?
Yeah, Azusa and I used to go,Hey guys, if Jay or Joe
Schafer's at NorthwestNazarene's done an incredible
(53:40):
job, coach gets him.
I'm like, Hey, if Joe calls meover and says I can be his
assistant, I'm coming.
I'm bringing a surfboard.
And they'd all be like, come oncoach.
It was so nice.
Westmont.
I'll tell you what we, we're apretty close second to that,
we're a little further away fromthe ocean, but when I walk down
from my office, we have anincredible ground crew.
Jorge Santos is amazing.
(54:00):
So like the grass is perfectlygreen and cut, and the weather's
beautiful.
And I walk down from a hill downto our field and I can see the
Pacific Ocean off in thedistance.
I love it.
Right field.
So I would say those too.
I'm a Boston guy, so FenwayPark, it's pretty cool.
Yeah.
Never coached in Fenway, butbeen there about bunch of times.
(54:20):
Pretty cool to go.
Yeah.
Fraser quote, you see all thetime to your players.
Oh, shoot.
Or they tease you about or theycome back to you with a lot,
man.
I don't know.
I do follow up.
I probably did it on this podright now.
I always go, does that makesense?
(54:42):
Yeah.
And I'll give it that one, yeah.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
And so they, they probably wouldkick that back to me quite a
bit.
I do that a lot myself.
Last one this one you'll havesome fun with.
What's the most underrated skillin a great teammate?
Underrated skill?
Yeah.
Or characteristic.
(55:02):
Man I selflessness that's a big,easy word to say, but like utter
selflessness.
And doing it in a fashion whereyou actually know that this kid,
this young man or player puts mypersonal success ahead of his
own.
So I think being a part of greatteams, I had incredible teams at
(55:26):
Pomona.
I felt like kids did that atAzusa Pacific.
There was some incredible teamsthat I was like, I'd go home and
my wife would say, how's itgoing?
I'm like, this group of kids?
I'm like, when this guy bangs adouble, these three guys look
more excited than when they bangtheir double.
They really are into like beingthere for their teammate.
(55:47):
And then we had a young man thisyear on our team Griffin Brown
he's a backup catcher.
So he is a bullpen catcher forthree years.
He's been a bullpen catcher.
And I think he's.
Dynamite baseball player and allI heard about was Griffin.
Griffin.
Griffin Brown.
And he's a good athlete.
He's, I played him in centerfield at the end of the year.
He never, only because he'd goout and shag during BP and I'd
(56:07):
be like, Hey, is that ourstarter out?
'Cause I'm old, I can't see outin center field if I don't have
my glasses.
And they're like, no, that's gr.
And I'm like, Griffin Brown.
And he'd be chasing balls down.
So we had wrapped up, I hadheard, we were at Azusa where I
had been 19 years and we had wongame one, which meant we won the
regular season.
So I said, Hey Griff, you'regonna play center.
(56:29):
And he did an incredible job outthere.
But he, everything I heard abouthim when I came into this
program was this kid's like arockstar teammate.
And then I got to observe itthis year and was really cool.
I'll tell you this story'causewe had a group of alum that are
incredible at Westmont and BrettBegar was a former player here
and a former coach who hadpassed a few years back and his
(56:51):
class of guys came together andsaid, we wanna raise money and
give out a scholarship in hisname.
And what we would like you to dois pick an athlete that reflects
Brett's values of leadership andselflessness and commitments to
the team.
And it was a pretty heftyscholarship.
And they said, we want you togive it out to a non-scholarship
(57:12):
athlete on your team.
We're not at our scholarshiplimits.
So it's easy for me to be ableto do that.
Yeah.
And instantly when they broughtme this and we collaborated and
I talked to Mrs.
Begar Brett's wife, and wetalked about these
characteristics, I said, I getthe guy for you.
That's awesome.
And it was this kid, GriffinBrown, and so going into his
senior year, he got this reallysurprise gift from a group of
(57:34):
alum towards his tuition that hejust reflects like a pure
interest in helping histeammates.
Yeah.
And then so those kids cancelebr that I'm a big believer
in celebrating those kids overthe starters because the
starters, you get yourcelebration by knocking the head
or striking that guy out.
(57:55):
It's all the kids that nobodysees at practice, as, as a
coach.
Yep.
So I That's incredible.
Those guys, the ones that aren'tgetting their 24 at bats every
week.
Yes, exactly.
That are still loving it.
And I, and you tell me if I'mwrong, but I'm constantly
teaching kids.
Not to fail the way I failed, Iforgot how important it was to
(58:17):
put that jersey on.
I forgot how important I got tobe outside playing.
Yeah.
I forgot how important it wasthat I got to be on a team.
And I got to play a game I lovedevery day.
Yep.
And when you have kids like thatand they're role models and
they're leaders, man, yourculture can change so quickly
for the better.
100%.
Love it.
I had a young man this year, Ihad to we had some things go on
(58:41):
and I couldn't bring him to you,you can, you have to reduce your
roster size.
And so then there was some otherthings.
And so tough con you have thosetough, caring conversations, but
you're like, Hey man, and andI'm getting to know these guys,
right?
And it's a culture.
And I'm like, Hey man I loveyou, but this went on and now we
have to have some, we gottaaddress it.
(59:01):
And so we're leaving to go up toour first conference tournament.
And he knows he's not coming.
He's at the bus at 6:00 AMknocking all his teammates.
Wow.
And I, at first I was like, danggood for that.
And he was an old junior, and Iwas like, man, I, what a level
of respect I have for this youngman.
We get back, we, the kids wonthe conference tournament.
(59:25):
We get back late that evening.
He's at the bus stop when allthe, all his teammates walk off.
And I told him at the end of theyear, I pulled him aside a
couple days after that and Isaid, Hey man that you are an
incredible one human being andtwo teammate.
And the reason why this teamwins is because of guys like yo.
(59:50):
So it's cool when you as a coachcan watch that and you had
nothing to do with it.
Yeah.
You just got an opportunity tobe a part of it.
Yeah.
So coach thank you so much forbeing you.
Thank you so much for beingauthentic and we just, we need
more coaches in the world likeyou.
And I'm so glad I got to shareyou with our audience today.
So I'm looking forward totalking some recruiting with you
(01:00:11):
here in a bit.
Thanks.
Yeah, right back at you.
Be.
That's a wrap on this week'sepisode.
A big thank you to coach PaulVDIs for joining me today and
sharing such powerful insight onleadership, culture, and the
long game of coaching.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, be sure to check
out my other episodes andsubscribe so you never miss
what's next.
And don't forget whether you'rea coach looking to build
(01:00:34):
something special or a familynavigating the recruiting
process, you can visit coachmatt rogers.com to explore my
books, significant Recruitingand the Softball Recruits
Journal, and to schedule a freecoaching or recruiting session
with me.
As always, remember thisleadership is about
significance, not just success.
Thanks for listening.
See you next time.
I had a young man this year, sowe're leaving to go up to our
first conference tournament.
And he knows he's not coming.
He's at the bus at 6:00 AMknocking all his teammates.
And I, at first I was like, danggood for that.
And he was junior, and I waslike, man, I, what a level of
respect I have for this youngman.
We get back, the kids won theconference tournament.
(00:25):
We get back late that evening.
He's at the bus stop when allthe, all his teammates walk off.
And I told him at the end of theyear, I pulled him aside a
couple days after that and Isaid, Hey man you are an
incredible one human being andtwo teammate.
And the reason why this teamwins is because of guys like yo.
(00:54):
Welcome back to SignificantCoaching, the podcast where we
dive into the mindset habits.
And Hart of TransformationalCoaches.
I'm your host coach Matt Rogers.
Today's guest is one of the mostrespected leaders in all of
college baseball coach PaulSMUs.
Currently at the helm ofWestmont College with 850 career
wins, 10 conference titles, andnearly three decades of
(01:15):
experience across NCAA Divisionthree NAI and Division two Coach
Swaggy has built programs rootedin accountability, purpose, and
high standards.
He's also coached someincredible players along the
way, most notably Stephen VAtwo-time Major League Baseball
All-Star, and the currentmanager of the Cleveland
Guardians.
(01:35):
In this episode, we talk abouthow Steven epitomizes the
culture coach Swags createsplayers who never forget where
they came from and who continueto give back.
We also dive into how to build achampionship culture, what it
means to lead with consistencyand the leadership lessons that
last far beyond the field.
Now, before we get started, makesure to subscribe so you never
(01:57):
miss an episode, and if you're acoach, a recruit.
A parent looking for tools toelevate your journey.
You can visit coach mattrogers.com.
You'll find my books, includingsignificant Recruiting and the
Recruits journal series, theSignificant Recruiting Launchpad
plus opportunities to schedule afree coaching or Recruiting
session.
All right, let's get after it.
(02:17):
Here's my conversation withCoach Paul SDIs.
coach Fags, thanks for being onthe show.
So great to see you.
What a great year you had.
Yeah, thank you, Matt.
Appreciate that.
It was fun to watch and I'malways excited.
I was a college coach for a longtime.
I coached at Laverne.
I know you coached at Oh yeah.
Pomona back in the day.
(02:37):
I did, yeah.
Laverne, back in the day.
I always get excited when I seesomebody take over a program in
year one and they have thesuccess.
You had, I know you're gonnagive credit to your ad and the
former coach, but how did itfeel to step in?
I know this is the third orfourth new job for you, but how
did it feel to step in and beable to look back now at the
(02:58):
success you guys had?
It's funny you mentioned beingat Laverne when I took over at
Pomona Pitzer, our first season,we were eight and 32.
So this was de a definitely adifferent experience than that.
Yeah it's been a great, it's aneasy transition.
I, and I did, I took over for anexcellent coach who, who just
took over Pepperdine, Tyler Latowho he and I have gotten close
(03:21):
over this transition.
He really cares about the kidshere at Westmont.
I got to know him a little biton the recruiting trail through
the years, and so he's beensuper supportive of that
transition.
I think that's always key too,right?
When a coach leaves and you havethat coach that actually cares
about the kids and wants thebest for'em it, it made it a lot
easier for me to come in andcoach his guys in a lot of ways.
(03:43):
That's great.
Yeah.
It it's so hard to leave aprogram that you've built and,
but it's so refreshing when youcan step into a program that
already has a little bit of aculture and the kids know how to
work and how to care about eachother, so I love that.
Coach, I really wanted to talkto you because you're one of the
few guys that can say, I've hadsuccess at the D three level.
(04:03):
I've built programs at the NAIlevel, I've built programs at
the D two level.
When you look at your history,is there a common thread, no
matter what division you've beenat to build a program that's
healthy and consistent?
Yeah, absolutely.
Baseball is baseball, right?
Yeah.
Whether you're at the Divisionthree NAIA division two I
(04:23):
haven't, experienced as a coach,the division one level, but of
course I'm a big fan, so I watcha lot of that and I've coached a
lot of players from the PAC 12back in the day when I was at
Azua, that would transfer in.
So you see the level of talentand I would say to baseball,
this thread, I even at Tufts, soI was at Tufts for three years
prior to coming to Westmont, wehad two players on the roster at
(04:45):
Duke in the super regional.
So two guys that were incredibleyoung men and players for me at
Tufts that had one more year ofpost grad, or two more years due
to COVID and ended up at Dukeand had an incredible experience
and run there.
So I think the talent level, ofcourse, there's a lot more depth
at the division one, and then itjust starts to depth is a little
(05:06):
less at two N AI and three, butthe caliber of.
Athlete or the mental side of itthe desire of the athlete to
want to improve and be the bestversion of themselves is the
same.
Yeah.
I don't think the plan or thetheme of what you're trying to
do with the kids' changes interms of the skillset and then
probably culture wise, I thinkin order to have an impact or be
(05:30):
able to speak into someone in acritical way, you get to show
'em, you care about'em, and thatextends every level.
Yeah.
And especially nowadays, weprobably grew up in a generation
in the eighties and ninetieswhere the relationships weren't
as important as just getting itdone, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
As I tell you what to do, you doit the way I tell you, right?
That's right.
And you, if you went home andyou called your old man and
(05:51):
said, Hey dad, this guy's sayingthis to me.
He'd say, yeah, do what he toldyou to do.
That's right.
I don't wanna hear about it.
And we, and I don't necessarilyknow if that's right.
I learned a ton from my collegecoaches and.
Me too.
My high school coaches areincredible mentors in my life,
but this is a differentgeneration where the kids need
to know.
And you can see that, look whatJay's doing.
Jay Johnson over at LSU andthese teams, you see when the
(06:14):
coaches get to the podium,there's a lot of emotion there.
'cause they're pouring into therelationships.
Yeah.
So as the Pulse Vegas, that wasat Pomona Pitzer 29, 30 years
ago.
Do you recognize him?
He, yeah he doesn't exist anylonger.
(06:35):
All right.
Now I wanna know more.
Tell me.
Yeah, tell me how you've grown.
'cause I keep having thisconversation.
This is my, I think I've beencoaching for 30 years now.
Yeah.
So it's one of those things, Ilook back at that kid that got
his first college job at 26.
I'm like, oh my gosh, you werejust a hot mess.
Yes.
Yeah.
Same.
I was 25 I think when I got thePomona job.
Yeah.
Head job grew up in the eightiesand nineties where.
(06:58):
Intensity and just do whatyou're told to do is a common
denominator.
And my, I'm still very closewith those Pomona guys.
In fact, the Pomona pictureguys, my athletic director who
was the coach here and reallydeveloped the Westmont program
Robert Ruiz played for me.
Pomona Pitzer, and he was one ofmy guys.
That's great.
And so that's great.
They we'll get together andthey'll come to my house now,
(07:20):
these Pomona Pitzer guys withtheir kids, or, and we'll hang
out and they'll come to ourWestmont games and they'll go
Faggy, they call me Faggy.
You are not the same guy youwere when you coached us.
Adapt, right?
Yeah.
You gotta adapt to the times.
It's so funny when I, I have thesame relationship with my first
group of guys at Maryville andthey just tease me so much, and
(07:40):
I love it.
'cause there's just things thatthey remember that I have no, no
recollection of.
Yes.
And they come at me with acoach, you said this to me and
you said this to him.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
I would've, yeah.
Today's world.
I would've been fired in asecond.
100%.
100%.
And I also think you remember,you were 26, I don't know if you
had kids at the time, but I, myfirst, my daughter, my oldest
(08:02):
was born when I was.
28, 29.
So the first probably four yearsof my head coaching career, I
had no perspective on what itmeant to have a child, yeah.
And even now at 55 when I'msitting in a room now with a
young man that I have to have ahard conversation with, which it
might be pulling his startingjob, right?
Just'cause he's struggling.
(08:23):
I think about, I, my son's arower at Tufts, a college
athlete.
My daughter was a volleyballplayer in college.
And the one thing as a dad, Iwould expect is that coach
respects and cares about my kid.
That's right.
So that perspective reallychanged for me after having my
own kids and going, this issomeone's son, or this is
someone's daughter.
That's right.
I need to handle this in a true,in a real way.
(08:46):
But also to understand theemotions that they're going
through when something hard isbeing delivered.
I have a daughter and a son, I.
I say we were smart.
We were married for 12 yearsbefore we had a kid, so I was
probably almost a dozen yearsinto my coaching career before
we had children.
Okay.
So that perspective, it was aneasier transition because by
(09:10):
then these kids were my kids.
You know what I mean?
And you understand that.
But now when I go to her gamesit's so hard for me to watch
other coaches.
Yeah.
Especially young coaches.
Sure do.
Do you struggle with thatwatching other kid, other people
coach your kids?
I think I did.
So my, my son who, he's oldernow and he's again, he goes to
(09:33):
school in Boston.
He's back out in Californiaright now spending time with us.
We, he just said this to me theother day'cause I was making fun
of myself for being an awful dador something.
And we like to laugh about itand he goes, dad we've already
discussed this.
You're a great dad and you're agreat coach, but you're not a
great coach dad.
(09:53):
That is a great way to put it.
Yeah, I think that, that it's soperfect.
Yeah.
Because I'm the same way.
Yeah.
So I think I just think Iprobably with my daughter was a
little easier.
This was the best advice I gotfrom my wife when my daughter
was transitioning from thatjunior high to like high school.
And now it's okay, it's highschool now and you love playing,
(10:14):
so I'm gonna come watch youplay.
And I might not know anythingabout volleyball, but I know
something about effort andathleticism.
And, there was some momentswhere we'd come back and I'd do
the dad coach thing and it wouldget very tense with my daughter
who has a similar personality toher dad.
Yeah.
And so my wife pulled me asideand said, Hey, I got a question
(10:34):
for you.
Do you want your daughter to bea great athlete or do you wanna
have a great relationship withyour daughter when you're older?
And it hit me and I was like,wow.
Yeah.
I said,'cause I know, we knowthis athletic thing is fleeting.
It's for you the best of thebest.
And I want her to experiencehigh school volleyball.
And hopefully she, I want her toexperience the collegiate
(10:55):
environment.
'cause as it can be veryspecial, right?
Yep.
Yep.
But that was the best advice.
So you'll laugh at this.
So I post volleyball games.
I would go into my room and givemyself a 45 minute timeout.
The kids would be like, what'sDad doing?
Ma would be just like, Hey, heis just, he's chilling for a
little bit so that I wouldn'tengage in the whole coach dad
(11:17):
thing with my daughter.
Yeah.
And I'll say this to this day, Ijust said this to my wife.
I said, Hey, thanks for thatadvice.
'cause I have a greatrelationship with my daughter.
She trusts me.
She under, she knows I'm in hercorner.
And she had a, despite what dadthought about coaching her, she
had a great college and highschool experience.
So That's great.
It was good.
Yeah.
(11:37):
Yeah.
I'm the same way.
I've had to just tell her,listen, I'm gonna be a little
aloof after games.
It's gonna sound, it's gonnalook like I might not even have
been there.
Yeah.
I'm gonna be, I'm gonna bereally quiet.
I'm gonna say good game.
It was fun watching you play.
And that may be all you getoutta me.
Yeah.
Until maybe tomorrow and if youwanna talk more, I've had to
really train myself.
(11:59):
Yeah.
You I, my wife and I sometimesboth need a horse collar Yeah.
During games and after games,but it's we're getting better at
it.
I think that's the greatchallenge of being a parent of
athletes is, especially whenyou've actually coached, is
learning that, okay, you gottago back and go, how do I want my
parents, of the players I'mcoaching to act?
(12:20):
How do I want them to talk?
And you have to live in thatworld a little bit.
Sure.
Absolutely.
And they, I've noticed, and Idon't know if this is right or
wrong, but.
The parents do play a majorrole, especially in our sport in
baseball.
Yeah.
The mental psyche.
And so as I've gotten olderwhere when I was younger you
were like, Ooh, parents can behard, right?
(12:43):
Yeah.
Because playing time and yougotta create boundaries, and I
still think boundaries need tobe created.
But one of the things as I'vegotten older, I've tried to
create is this atmosphere forparents to feel like they're a
part of the process, but alsoseparate it from it.
Yeah.
Because you want the kids, Ineed our athletes to be in a
great frame of mind, if I'mfighting battles at two or three
(13:04):
different fronts, emotionally,that's hard to do as a coach.
Yeah.
Having the parents feel likeyou, not that I'm going outta my
way to make the experienceimportant to them, but whatever
that is, a tent time on the roadto take the kids out or, I've
learned that they're a big partof the process as well.
They are and they want to beinvolved.
(13:25):
Yeah.
And and when it's done it can bereally positive.
Rich Grower was the best highschool coach when I was a
college coach in St.
Louis.
He was the best high schoolcoach around.
And I would go coach at hiscamps and help him.
And I remember Rich did, thiswas almost 30 years ago, rich
did a communication guide forhis families at the start of
(13:45):
every year.
And he would have every parentsign it, this is how we're going
to communicate with each other.
And I stole that and I'vetweaked it and changed it over
the years.
Are you doing something likethat at the college level or is
it more just a conversation?
It's probably while you'rerecruiting.
Yeah.
It's probably in the recruitingprocess.
Hey I, because the parents arepretty, pretty involved in that
(14:07):
and it's probably a conversationof, and I know we're gonna talk
a little bit about recruitinglater, a later segment, but it's
probably more of letting themunderstand why it's important
that I build a level of trustwith their son.
And then I also try to identifyas a parent of a college athlete
to say, you know what I'vereceived, I receive emails.
Please don't let Jimmy know I'mreaching out.
(14:29):
And I, so I use that as anexample with some of our
incoming parents.
And I say to something to theeffect of, now I feel like I'm
in the spot.
'cause now I'm being asked to bedishonest with someone I'm
trying to build trust with.
That's right.
And trust is key to having anysort of success.
I said, but also as a parent, Iwanna protect you from with your
relationship with your son.
'cause I know if my dad did thatwithout me knowing.
(14:52):
That could create conflict in myrelationship with my dad.
So I said, just understand whenyou reach out in those fashions
with, please don't tell my son.
That's a, that's really puttingus all in a really tough bind
now.
And then I might talk to some ifyou need me to reach out'cause
you're concerned about thememotionally.
'cause we have a lot of, mentalhealth issues, with this
(15:13):
generation and Instagram andsocial media.
Our job is to work together tohelp your son or daughter be the
best version of themselves.
So you try to have that onhonest conversation.
I haven't run into too many.
It's easier when you get olderthough.
I bet you've seen this, yes.
Yeah.
I don't take it personalanymore.
Being a parent of a child, I satin my daughter's volleyball
(15:36):
games in college and.
My, her college volleyball coachwas a colleague of mine that I
knew 10 years prior.
And I'd be like, I wanna ripthis guy's head off.
I never told my daughter that,but I'm like, dude, my kid's a
baller.
You know how you do that as aparent?
Yes.
Or my kid's a coach's kid.
She gets it right.
She's all in on what the coachwants.
(15:57):
And I remember feeling thoseemotions never acting out on
them.
And I'm still close with hercollege coach to this day, but I
had that emotion.
Yeah.
So now when I have a dad that'supset about playing time, or I
have a mom that's upset that I'mnot playing her kid enough, i've
felt those emotions and I cansit there and go, I know why you
feel that way.
(16:17):
You should feel that way.
That's what a parent shouldfeel.
Yeah.
But I still have, I'm stillgonna make the decisions that
are best for this team based onwhat I think when you're 55 and
you've coached this long, it's,you're a little more confident
in that answer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was 25, I was like, whyare you attacking me?
Yeah.
So it's amazing what happenswhen we hit 50 as a coach.
(16:37):
I, and I don't know why thatnumber, but it just, it does
something to your brain whereyou're like, all right I've done
everything I've set out to do.
Now it's about, I want somepeace.
I want happiness.
Yeah.
I wanna be able to coach the wayI want to coach, but I don't
want any drama.
Yeah.
So how do I go into thisconversation to eliminate the
(16:58):
drama?
Said.
Said.
That's what I've learned at from50 on.
Yes.
Because I had a lot of dramaprior to that.
Yes.
I, I'm thinking of a story.
My best player, this was 20years ago, his dad called me
probably seven, eight games intothe season.
We're in first place.
(17:19):
We're leading the league, we'reranked top 20 in the country,
and his son is our best player.
And he calls me and wants totalk about how to use his son
better.
And I listen and I say thankyou, and I'll go, I'll take all,
I'll take all your words to, toheart and put some thought into
it.
(17:39):
This was a 30-year-old ver30-year-old version of myself.
I hang up the phone and I callhis son.
I say, Hey, what are you doingright now?
I know you're not in class.
Can you come over and see me?
He comes over and I say, Hey doyou like your uniform?
He goes, what do you mean coach?
I go, do you like your uniform?
Do you like wearing it?
Do you like how it fits?
Do you like how it feels on you?
(18:00):
And he goes, yeah, coach, I do.
I go, if you want to keep it,your dad never calls me again.
Yeah.
I get a phone call 10 minuteslater from the dad in tears.
Oh, wow.
See Coach, I'm so sorry.
It'll never happen again.
I was like, Hey, this is yourson's thing.
Yeah.
I'm never gonna yell at you.
(18:21):
I'm never gonna be mad at you.
This is your son's thing, and hehas to learn how to have a
relationship with you as anadult.
Yeah.
But this has to be his thing.
If he's got a problem, I've gotan open door policy, he's got my
cell phone twenty four seven.
So I want him to lead thatconversation.
So I don't think I would'vehandled, I don't think I'd
handle that the same way todayas I did when I was 30.
(18:43):
But I was pretty cocky backthen, yes.
Yeah.
And that's, yeah, that'sexactly, my experience as well.
Coach I'm gonna transition herea little bit.
I know you've been, and tell meif I'm wrong, you've been really
intentional about integratingyour faith into your coaching.
Yes.
Do you agree?
Yes, 100%.
Yep.
I'm not, I my, my spiritualfaith is really important to me,
(19:05):
but I'm not a very religious mananymore.
I was raised Catholic but thisis always a really great
conversation for me, and I lovetalking about this from a
coaching aspect.
When you think about a practice,a 7:00 AM practice, an 8:00 AM
practice, you get, what doesthat integration of your faith
and your spiritual self and whatyou want these boys to take away
from you as a man.
(19:27):
What does that look like at 7:00AM on a Wednesday in the fall?
Yeah.
I I enjoy being around the guysand and the spiritual like
development of our athletes.
I'm not a, although we'll doplanned out stuff'cause some of
our players will be like, Heycoach, can you lead like a bible
study?
Or something like that.
If the players come to me andask for that, I'm all in.
I can really make that happen.
(19:48):
I'm a little more organic.
Yeah.
And usually I'm a little more aauthentic in the sense of Amen.
Lemme tell you about what I'vebeen going through and how I've
been losing my identity andbeing a coach and not an
identity of a follower of Jesus,which this happens even at 55
years old.
Correct.
And I, you guys can wa you cansee how it played out this
(20:09):
potential weekend, right?
Yeah.
For me, maybe my energy levelget up, maybe my intensity, what
intensity's good, but what'sbehind the intensity, right?
Yeah.
And that's what I'll try toexplain to the guys.
I'm like, D daily I have tothink about, I.
I was created this way, whichthere's a lot of positives in
it, right?
I come to practice with energy,I come to games with intensity.
(20:33):
I hopefully you think I comeprepared as a coach, but
sometimes I start relying on myown strength and the strength
from my faith and understandingthat God is in control of my
life, right?
And so I think when the kids cansee Hey man, I struggle with the
same things that you're gonnastruggle with.
I've gone through it now, right?
(20:53):
And I look back at what I lookfelt like at 22 and now I'm 55.
Hopefully you guys can see thevalue in not making this your
primary like identity, right?
Yeah.
Baseball's my identity.
'cause baseball's gonna, any, ifwe keep putting our identity in
things that are gonna fail us,it's gonna be a long, miserable
(21:16):
life.
Agreed.
Yeah, agreed.
And I would also say to that Iget every day I have to walk
through that process.
Like I even struggle with itmyself spiritually.
I'm like, Hey man, why don't Ijust show up?
Understanding that every day,right?
Yeah.
Like I have to whatever have to,is have some quiet time, right?
(21:38):
Have some prayer time, just likeI gotta bang the weights.
I'll explain to the kids like,we're banging weights now.
I gotta bang the weightsspiritually, otherwise I just
start relying on my ownstrength.
And once I do that, I get verylonely.
Yes.
And so I just try to findmoments like that and be real
with the kids.
I don't know if it works thetoughest, when I was at Pomona,
(22:00):
when I was at Tuft's, I wasn'thired to share faith with the
kids.
And I think I'm a pretty, prettygood person that way.
Like I'm hired to be thebaseball coach here now.
Hopefully I'll live in such away.
'cause I know those kids aregonna struggle in life somewhere
along the line that I develop arelationship with them and that
(22:21):
they know faith has beenimportant to me without me
throwing it at'em or forcing iton'em, or constantly bugging'em
with it.
But just trying to live it outin an authentic way that then
those young men will think aboutwhen they're struggling with
their marriage, they'restruggling with their job, they
lost, didn't get a job, theydidn't get promoted, they lost
their job.
They trust me enough to pick upthe phone.
(22:43):
'cause maybe they saw me tellstories about failure and how
maybe my faith played intoovercoming that failure.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, exactly.
So I think those are the waysthat, that I try to bring it
into my daily kind of routine.
It's such valuable, it's such avaluable conversation.
(23:04):
Yeah.
And I think every coach.
Needs to have it because I goback to my failures as an
athletic director and, you'd seea, you'd watch a coach overreact
to a call or you'd watch a coachoverreact to a player.
And I think now how I'd want tohandle it is I'd want to go into
their office a couple days laterand say, Hey, you doing all
(23:25):
right?
I saw you do some things thatwere outta your character and
say some things outta yourcharacter.
You doing all right?
Yeah.
What do you need from me?
And I think as coaches, theolder we get, the more we're
doing those things, the morewe're watching how a kid's
reacting and how they're showingup at practice or how they're
making a change.
(23:45):
But I think we all need tounderstand that as we coach what
you're doing, what you're sayingis, I'm still that guy.
I can still overreact.
I can still get pissed off.
I can still get ornery.
Yeah.
But now I'm much better at.
Saying, Hey guys, I failed alittle bit yesterday.
I wasn't true to myself and howI handled that situation.
(24:08):
And I want you to know that I'mlearning too, and I love that
about you, coach.
I love I, again, I think wecould get 10,000 coaches in a
room and that would be a messagethat would change a lot of their
futures as a coach.
Yeah.
Thanks for that.
So I appreciate that more thanand I appreciate where you're
coming from with that.
Let's talk about your journey alittle bit.
(24:29):
You've coached all Americans,academic, all Americans, major
leaguers.
One of your guys is the managerof the Cleveland Guardians for
crying out loud.
Super cool.
I still don't believe it, butthat's pretty cool.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
'cause I, and I, for me, it's Idon't often think about my best
players, the kids that, gone on.
I think about those kids that I,I had a great relationship with
(24:51):
or, did something special.
But, you look at Mr.
Vote, man, he's, yeah, he's hada great career.
What is that like to see that akid that you coached and grew up
and now he's coaching MajorLeague baseball?
Yeah.
It's certainly it's a proudmoment to feel like you were
semi part of that process.
I.
I, I think what's super coolabout Steven and Alyssa's wife,
(25:13):
and she was a Zeus, a grad aswell, and an athlete.
And then he has three kids athome.
And my son was in their weddingwhen he was in the minor
leagues.
So prior to all of thisincredible success at the big
league level I think much likeyou were talking, we were
talking about earlier, therelationship that I would have
with Steven that I have now wasthe same relationship.
(25:36):
Whether he just started teachinghigh school math and coaching,
which was the path he wanted togo on, and and I think what's
fun about this too is we have alot of teammates.
That played with Steven, right?
And he's the same guy as themanager of the Guardians right
now and manager of the year.
As he was as a player and aclubhouse guy.
So we'll all end up down atDodger Stadium and go out to
(25:59):
dinner after, and he's just oneof the guys still.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's what's, thatgoes back to that authenticity
and the genuineness of peopleand then being a part of a great
team culture, right?
Yeah.
He still is.
Great about staying in touchwith his teammates and when they
come down to a game and he, Iget pictures from his teammates
with their son, with Steven atthe Angels game, that's so
(26:20):
awesome.
So it's that's great.
It's pretty neat part of theprocess.
But I would say this, and Ireally mean it it's, I had one
of his teammates down thatdidn't play at Westmont.
That I haven't seen in 15 yearsthat lives down in LA now.
And we were at Vanguard thisyear and we reconnected and he
said, he has a daughter thatplays softball.
I said, Hey, does she want to beour back girl down at Vanguard?
(26:41):
He said, I love it.
And so we reconnected.
She came in and she was our backgirl during the game.
It was wonderful.
That's awesome.
I'm just as excited about whatthose guys are doing as their
lives, as Steven is doing ashis, I think the cool part from
a baseball standpoint is,although it was, he was a, he's
a lot busier now than he was asa big league player.
(27:04):
I bet.
Yeah.
So there was, we, there was alot of times where we could just
jump on the horn and talkbaseball, and now I'm like,
dude, I don't wanna bug himright now.
Yeah.
He's in the midst of a,divisional run or they traded
somebody or, you know what Imean?
And he's.
He I would hope he knows thisand I know he does.
He's got a lot of good, hisdad's a wonderful guy.
(27:27):
His brother's a great guy who,here's a cool story.
So his older brother Danny, wasa captain at Westmont College.
Really?
Yeah.
And he played, so my, I.
They crossed over.
So when Steven was a freshmanfor me at Azusa Pacific, Danny
was a senior at Westmont.
So the first guy I called whenRobert Ruiz called me for the
(27:47):
job is I called Danny'causewe're all close.
Danny Gold, of course, who's agreat guy and very successful in
his own right.
And I said, Hey Danny, what doyou think?
Should I take the Westmont job?
And he's no way, skip, thiswould be great.
And I said we're just keeping itall in the family, in the
baseball family, yeah.
I love it.
Yeah.
It's such a small world.
It isn't it?
Yeah.
But that's what makes it fun, itdoes.
(28:09):
It's, there's, there, I have somuch joy in all the guys and
gals that I've coached over theyears, but when one of them is
coaching, and I don't care ifthey're coaching high school or
middle school or something,it's, there's just so much joy
for me when we get to talkcoaching together.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Yep.
Yep.
100%.
And R Rob Ruiz, my ed coachedSteven with us.
(28:32):
Okay.
Who's the idea here at Westmont,who was the coach here for 10
years?
Took him to the series, did agreat job.
I think that's a super coolconnection too.
He was there at Azusa when werecruited Steven.
He was a part of my staff.
Yeah.
And then he took over Westmont.
So baseball community is a lotsmaller than we think.
We come across people and it's acool community.
(28:53):
My college coach used to saythis, I coached college football
for nine years, collegially atthe D three level prior.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
So three years at Tufts.
And then when I graduatedundergrad, I did a GA position
there in football and baseball.
And then I got my head job atPomona Pitzer.
But they, the real job was afootball job and they gave me
(29:14):
baseball.
That's pretty much, that'spretty much what it was.
But that's small schoolathletics 20 years ago.
That's to some point.
It still is.
Yes.
That's exactly right.
And so my coach said to me,'cause he was a college football
coach, my college coach, JohnCasey, who's an A BCA Hall of
Famer case, said, I go, case,why didn't you become a football
(29:34):
coach?
You were like, great footballcoach.
Why don't you go, be a headcoach somewhere.
And he goes, he goes, baseballguys are just different.
They're not afraid to share thethings that they're doing.
They're not afraid to, football,I don't want to tell you how I'm
running this play because,that's my I have like in
intellectual property on thatand baseball.
(29:54):
He goes, you go to a conventionand you just start talking
baseball.
Yep.
About hitting or pitching.
And everybody's an open book.
Yep.
And and I, when I was younger Iwas like, oh, okay.
But now that I'm older, I reallyappreciated that perspective
that he had on that.
'cause it's very true.
Oh I've told stories.
I actually was just talking toKevin Brooks at Angelo State
(30:15):
about this.
'cause he was, he coachedbasketball, he thought he was
gonna be a basketball coach.
I told him I thought I was gonnabe a baseball coach.
Yeah.
And the way our paths go, but wewere talking about, I remember
at 2324 going to conventions andhaving Lew Olson.
Yeah.
I'd say, Hey coach, I got aquestion.
He'd pull me aside and he'dspend 30 minutes with me talking
(30:36):
post play.
Yeah.
He didn't have to do that.
He could have walked out andleft.
And, but he had a conversationwith me and Tom Izzo.
And so for me, that's how Ithink about coaching is how
important it's that we share andthat we,'cause you and I can
have the same understanding ofbat path, but how you teach it
is gonna be different than how Iteach it.
But the shared knowledge is sovaluable and that's why the game
(31:01):
just keeps getting better.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Yep.
I want, we talked about StevenA.
Little bit.
I wanna talk a little bit about,'cause I don't think we've
really talked about this on theshow at all.
I wanna get your thoughts on it.
'cause you have such a greatrelationship with all your guys
that have gone on to afterplaying.
How do you mentor kids to leadtheir life after they're done
(31:25):
playing when the cheering stopsand there isn't that big goal
anymore.
They, they've been playingbaseball their whole life.
Yeah.
How do we get them ready to goonto the world without that?
'Cause it's different.
We're not training every day.
You're not, there's nobodypushing you every day.
There's not a game to play or achampionship to win.
How do we prepare them for thatnext part of their life?
Oof.
(31:46):
I think it's tough to preparehim for that.
I think you, it goes back tothat identity piece that we were
talking about earlier.
What's my identity?
You're gonna battle that yourwhole life.
You're gonna go get a job andyour job's gonna come a priority
and your family might take abackseat to that.
Where's your identity right now?
I'm always encouraged'em to puttheir identity in their family
(32:06):
and who they are in theircommunity and Right, the
leadership component.
But I, it goes back, I thinkintegrity and being honest Hey
guys, you're gonna have a whole,you're gonna have a void when
this ends.
And your parents are gonna havea void.
'cause they been driving youeverywhere.
Arizona, Pacific North, they'vebeen all over the country taking
you around to be seen.
There's gonna be a little bit ofvoid.
(32:26):
But the skills that you'relearning, this is the stuff I,
five minute post talkconversation.
The skills that we're learningon this field, you're gonna be
able to apply in your life aswhatever your life is.
Doctor, lawyer, business.
Teacher, educator, some of youguys will coach.
That's an easy transition,right?
You'll learn that actually, youI remember telling, going back
(32:49):
to Steven Bo, he got DFA withOakland after having two all
star seasons, and we had a lotof emotion on the phone.
I remember sitting right behindmy dugout at a zoo and Hey,
coach and this and I remembertelling him, and I don't want to
jinx him right now, but I said,listen, I'm like, you're gonna
be a big league manager someday.
Like you had this was, and hestill had a career after that.
(33:11):
He had four more years in thebigs after he got DFA with
Oakland the first time.
And I said, you I said you haveall the qualities of being an
incredible manager.
And I said, right now, at somepoint, you're gonna have to stop
playing the game.
And that's gonna beheartbreaking.
'cause there's a lot ofdifference between playing and
coaching.
But I'm gonna tell you, you'regonna be more satisfied and have
(33:35):
more gratification from thecoaching component because
you're pouring into someoneelse.
You're pouring into a youngprospect, you're helping him
overcome adversity.
You're helping him get hiscareer off the ground.
You know what I mean?
And also being a mentor to himabout what it looks like to,
hopefully be a good dad and agood husband through a very
(33:57):
tough lifestyle, right?
In the big ones, right?
And I said, you are gonna enjoythat buddy a lot more than the
home runs that you hit in thebig leagues.
And I remember talking to himafter last year.
Now last year was prettyCinderella for him, other than
going to the World Series, butbeing the manager of the year.
And I said, do you remember Itold you that?
And I said, what do you think?
(34:17):
Do you love it?
And he is yes, absolutely.
There's, because you're giving,you're not taking.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Like sometimes when you're aplayer, even though you're, when
you're a part of a great team,you should be giving to your
teammates.
Yes.
There's also thatself-absorption of I'm not
hitting over 300, or I'm notgetting the playing time that I,
(34:38):
we've worked hard for.
When you're coaching, it's justall about the other guy.
Yes.
In a lot of ways, right?
Yes.
So I try to share those thingswith the kids.
But I also am honest with'em,you're gonna have a little
lonely time'cause you're notgonna not know what to do with
it.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
I very much it's, if we're notteaching selflessness as a
(35:01):
member of a team, you're gonnahave a hard time learning that
when the team isn't there.
Absolutely.
And that's what makes greatcoaches.
That's what makes you a greatcoach, is your selflessness.
You're always gonna put yourfamily and your players and your
program and the school ahead ofyourself and it's a calling,
it's a service.
Life.
(35:21):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'Cause we don't get paid a lotat this level.
No.
No, we don't.
And that's what peopleunderstand.
We don't, and we don't stop.
We work seven days a week.
We work 52 weeks a year andYeah.
Like you said you're on thephone after a game behind the
backstop talking to a kid thatgraduated 20 years ago,
absolutely.
Yeah.
You're always a part of thatlife.
That family is huge.
(35:42):
Yes.
They're always there.
Yeah.
My, my kids are learning thatthe hard way, you know about me.
They're, my wife will see thatI've got two meetings on my
calendar and they'll go, whywere you so busy today?
You only had two meetings.
I got eight phone calls and sixemails that I had to respond to,
yeah.
Yeah.
And it, it's the day fills upbecause everybody needs you.
You're the person they've beencounting on for so long.
(36:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
For sure.
And that's why I love it, and Iknow that's why you love it.
Yep.
Yep.
I wanna talk about high academicbecause you coach and not that
Westmont and Azu Pacific aren'tgreat schools'cause they are.
But when you're coaching at aschool like Tufts and Pomona.
Pitzer Yep.
Your talent pool is very small.
Yes.
Because it's a very small groupof kids that could get in the
(36:24):
door.
Yep.
What did you learn aboutbuilding a program at those two
schools that have shaped how youbuild it now?
Scholarship level.
Yeah.
I think, yeah.
I in order you, in order to wingames right there, it's what
comes first?
Do you build great culture andthen you win games?
(36:45):
Or is winning games a part ofbuilding great culture and, but
winning games is definitely apart of it, right?
And I've always said this evenas a Christian, like to my wife,
when I was younger, when we wereeight and 32 my first year, I'm
like, babe, like you gotta startpraying.
Because if I played for a coachthat was eight and 32, I would
not listen to that guy.
(37:07):
So I'm like, I need, we need towin some games, right?
Yes.
So when you're at these highacademic elite schools, like I
think you have to really findthat diamond in the rough,
right?
It probably at the division onelevel, maybe they're a two to
three tool player.
Does that make sense?
And yes.
At my level here, they're like atwo to one tool guy.
(37:29):
You gotta find those one toolguys that you say, man, I, okay,
that guy's six three and he isgot a short swing.
But he's, a buck 70, he's askinny kid playing third base,
and his arm is suspect overthere.
Like from a baseball standpoint.
Yeah.
And then you have to projectout.
We'll be, we'll get in theweight room, we'll get him to
(37:50):
200 pounds and that guy's gonnabe a good player.
And then he has to fit thatacademic component.
Is he a 1450 SAT?
Is he a four oh student?
Is he a AP guy?
But I think one of the thingsthat we tried to do at Pomona
was find those kids that hadthat one, something that I felt
like, and for me it was always,I would wa either pitching wise,
(38:13):
just watch how their arm worked.
Very simple.
We didn't have data back then.
And he, let's be honest, even ifwe had data what guys?
That the da, the data guide dothat I want, am I gonna get at
Pomona Pitzer versus Cal StateFullton.
They're gonna get that guybefore I get him, or Harvard's
gonna get that guy before PomonaCollege gets him, or Stanford's
gonna take that guy off of databefore I get him.
(38:36):
So for a long time it was moreof Hey, does his arm work well?
And then from an offensivestandpoint, did he show some
semblance of bat speed with hishands?
And I felt like if a kid's handswere good, even if he was a
defensive kid, if I thought hehad quick hands, I was like, oh,
I can teach him how to hit atthis level.
(38:57):
Do you know what I mean?
Where now as I've moved to Azusaand now I have scholarship and
I'm at Westmont, there's there,maybe now I'm looking at their
speed now with that bat speed,or I'm looking at their arm
strength with that bat speed,I'm looking for one more tool.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
You.
(39:19):
You're always looking for thatmultiple multiplier.
Exactly.
You know that kid can give youone extra thing.
But it sounds like for you, it'sall about development.
No matter what level you're at,100%, you're just able to
recruit a little bit higherlevel or somebody a little
faster, a little stronger, alittle bigger, but the mindset
(39:41):
is still, they've got the toolsI need, but they've got the
tools I can develop as well.
Absolutely.
Like I, and I really have thismindset and I think it's, I.
This development growth mindsetstarting over at Pomona College.
And going from eight and 32 andprogram never really having a
lot of success to now Frank osi,I don't know if you've heard of
(40:03):
Frank, he took over from a,taking him to the World Series,
like Yeah, they're good baseballteam.
There's really good players onthat team that could play for
me, that could go play divisionone.
Like I said, my Tufts guys wereon the Duke team and Uni
University of Connecticut, whichis a regional team in
Northwestern.
Yeah.
So as coaching at the mid levelsyou have kids that then have
(40:24):
developed'cause you, you sawsomething in them that they may
not have seen in themselves atthe time.
Yeah.
And then you believed in thatskillset and then you developed
it.
So there was a book I read, Iwas in a doctoral program when I
was at Pomona.
I didn't finish.
They said they gave you a bookand they said, Hey, 80% of
people don't.
Finished doctoral programs and Iwas like, I'm not gonna be that
(40:45):
guy.
I was that guy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My second child came along and Iwas like, I ain't doing it, but
we, yeah, I was same way.
And you're coaching and allthat.
But I got pretty far along.
There was a book that was it'scalled Strengths Finder and it's
like a personality task, blah,blah, blah.
I know that book.
Yeah.
One of the things I brought intomy coaching was this idea that
(41:05):
we all have our strengths and weshould focus on our strengths,
not necessarily our weaknesses.
And and I may be butchering thepremise of Strength Finders, but
it hit me as a coach.
If I have a plus offensive or agood offensive kid and I can
make him a plus offensive kid, Ionly have so many ti, so much
(41:25):
time in the day to do that.
So let me try to take the goodhitter, let's say, and turn him
into a plus hitter.
If I'm spending time and he'snot a good defender, I need to
find a space where he can bemaybe average as a defender or
find a position where averagecan play with his plus offense.
And I might flip that with adefensive kid.
(41:46):
Make sense?
Yeah he's a plus defender in themiddle infield, he's got great
hands.
So I'm gonna spend a lot of timeon making that strength.
Even making it elite.
Yeah.
Because that elite strength'sgonna help us win games.
And my job is to pu put him intothe puzzle that creates a
winning team.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
(42:06):
Very much and I think when youand I grew up, I think that's
the way Major League Baseballwas.
I that's you weren't expectingyour shortstop to hit 20 home
runs and get 80 rbis.
If he finished the season withnine airs and batted 2 45, you
were happy.
Yep.
That to balls and maybe war andstuff like that.
I'm not big data guy.
I'm old, so I'm trying to figureit out'cause young kids like it,
(42:29):
but maybe those things factor innow, but I'll take the Wizard of
Oz any day.
Yeah, absolutely.
Me too.
Yeah, because I know I'm, he'sgonna make every play.
Plus he's gonna get us plays,I'm a Cub fan, so I talk about
Whitey, Whitey way too much, andthose 82 Cardinals.
Yeah.
It's hard for me to talk about,but to me that was, that's where
baseball was at its heyday.
(42:50):
You had a lead off hitter withgreat speed.
You had a guy that could hitbehind a runner at number two.
Yeah.
You had a guy that hit withaverage and you could hit with a
little power, and then you hadyour big hammer at number four.
And it's it's hard for me towatch Kyle Schwarber about
leadoff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just it's a challenge forme, the way baseball's changed.
I understand the analytics, Iget it.
But it's those things I'malways, I'm constantly learning
(43:14):
and trying to adapt.
Coach, this has been a lot offun.
I could talk forever with you.
I want to end this coachingsession with some quick hitters,
but I got one, one more questionfor you, and I want you to think
about talking to young coaches.
What advice would you give toyoung coaches who are trying to
build their voice, andespecially those who want to
lead, lead a program for a longtime and really grow in that
(43:37):
program?
What advice would you give?
Yeah, I would say.
Find it's a fine line betweenbeing a buddy with a player and
being someone that cares about aplayer, but drawing the line,
yeah.
I think the, in this day and agewith social media and being a
(43:57):
young coach with young athletes,I think sometimes we, I would
just encourage a young coachthat I have.
There's something differentbetween the coaching staff and
the players, and I care aboutyou and I love you, and I'm
gonna work my tail off for youand I would hope you're gonna
(44:18):
work your tail off for yourteammates, but we're not buddies
yet.
French buddies happen when yougraduate and I have you over my
house and take you out todinner, and, you know what I
mean?
At that point, I'm not yourcoach anymore.
I'm not your boss, because Ithink when those lines get
blurred.
You as a young coach lose Ithink some sort of emotional
(44:41):
control of your team.
Agreed.
That's great advice and that's atough one.
'cause I'm also saying berelational.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
It, there, there is the line.
And finding that line is a bigstep for a lot of coaches.
And I, I just, I did a coachingsession with a brand new college
coach before you and I hopped ontoday and I told her the same
(45:01):
thing.
I go, you gotta find your voice.
I go I've called you coach acouple times since we got on the
phone.
And I go, how did that feel tohear me call you coach?
She goes, it's still a littlestrange.
Yeah.
And I go you gotta learn to ownthat.
You gotta learn to love that'swho you are.
Sure.
These kids are looking at youfor advice and direction and
it's hard to be their bestfriend until you figure out how
(45:25):
that role is for you.
Absolutely.
You know what I mean?
I did a you'll, I did this whenI was at Azusa with my ad.
I was trying to get a littlebigger piece of the pie, right?
Yeah.
And I had just turned 50, Ithink it was, and it was right
during COVID.
And I did research on on coachCorman at Vandy Bill Belichick.
I'm a huge Patriots fan.
(45:45):
I think.
Coach Greg Popovich.
Yeah.
Who actually coached at PomonaCollege.
Another Pomona Pitzer alone.
Yeah.
Pomona Pitzer.
Yeah.
Great guy.
Yeah.
And one of my highlights of mycareer was at a Hall of Fame
dinner and Coach Pop is thereand he's getting inducted into
the Hall of Fame.
And I get to meet him, ofcourse.
And he had just won his second,I think, NBA championship.
And he and I would bring mycaptains to these things.
(46:08):
'cause I'm like, this isincredible.
I want you to hear from Love it.
Highly successful people thatwere here, that loved being here
at D three.
And Coach Pop said, he goes, Ihave one trophy in my office.
He had already won two.
And he goes, it was sittingbehind me and he goes, it was
the net when I won my firstkayak championship at Pomona
College.
Love it.
(46:28):
Yeah.
And I was like, dude, he's wontwo NBA championships.
He's coaching the Admiral andall these incredible guys.
But that experience for him wasso meaningful.
Yeah.
So anyways, I did all this stuff'cause I was going back to young
coaches and older coaches andyoung coaches can certainly have
done incredible things inbaseball and basketball and
(46:48):
football and things like that.
It's definitely become a youngwoman and man's game in a lot of
Yes.
Because of the relationshipstuff.
But my soul goal was like, toget my ad to buy in, I'm 50 now
at Azusa.
This is, I'm in my prime as acoach and I went through Mandy's
success at the World Serieshappened after Coach Corbin was
50 and won his first world SuperBowl at 52 and Pop and I, and
(47:13):
then there was, I think JoeTorry, I probably had Joe Torry,
yeah.
His first World series.
And I'm like, Hey Gary, I'm goodfriends with him.
I'm like, I just turned 50 alland then I took all these
coaches and they said they hadgreat general managers that were
all Hall of Famers.
Like your ad.
And I'm like, we got this now wegot the next 10 years to take.
Azusa Pacific to a nationalchampionship.
(47:34):
It's just gonna require somemoney.
I didn't get it, but it was agreat presentation, great sales
pitch.
Yeah, I love it.
But I do think there's somethingabout, my wife will say this
those guys, you learn from yourmistakes, you learn from your
failures.
And I also think, obviouslyCoach Corbin is the class of
college baseball and incredibleguy.
(47:55):
I think he knows how to createrelationships and let his
players know what he cares abouthim.
But I think when you walk on thefield, there's such a high level
of respect for the expectationthat he probably has that they
know he cares about him, butthey also know.
There's a little bit of a linethere, and I wouldn't know if
Coach Corbin would say that, butthat's what I would observe
probably.
And why he's so successful.
(48:17):
I agree.
I agree.
And I'm learning too.
I see coaches that are able tostra that line and really have
great success.
And I don't know if it's how Iwas raised or how I grew up in
the game.
It's just it's still a challengefor me.
I, like you said, when theygraduate I'm okay getting rid of
the coach hat, yeah.
Yeah.
But while they're playing forme, it's, that line's still
(48:39):
valuable.
It's still important.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Coach you up for some quickhitters.
Some fun.
Sure.
Some fun questions.
Absolutely.
You'll like these.
Okay.
Best baseball movie of all time.
Oh.
Field of Dreams.
I'm with you There.
Anything with Kevin Costner in abaseball, I'm happy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know you've already mentionedthe strengths finders there one
(49:01):
book every Coach should read.
Ooh, That's a tough one.
I should have, you probably sentme this question.
I should have thought about it.
Every we can come back to it.
Yeah, we'll come back to thatone.
I read a bunch of books.
I've read a bunch of books onleadership.
(49:22):
I like the re Speed of Trust wasbut I don't know if it's a book
everyone should read, but it'scalled The Speed of Trust and I
think Covey was the author and Ithink I, I've, that one kind of
gave me a little bit of man, ifI'm not creating trust amongst
my athletes.
I'm at a zero.
I'm starting from scratch.
(49:42):
And so it sounds like a prettydarn good book for young people
to read.
Young coaches.
Yeah.
It was more, it was a book onbasically you have to create
trust in your organization inorder to move forward and excel
and then collaborate.
Yeah.
And so when I read that I wasprobably 38 years old, I was
like, am I creating trust whenI'm just hammering these guys
emotionally?
(50:03):
Yeah.
That I gotta be able to be alittle more authentic.
Some of those words we usedearlier.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have to find ways and not, I'mnot one of those guys.
Let's do a trust fall.
You know what I mean?
I'm not gonna do a retreat.
Yeah.
But who I am as a person intheir life.
Am I there?
Am I trustworthy?
Is coach, is his word does hecare?
So those things really playedinto it early on when I hit that
(50:25):
crux of my career at 36 yearsold.
Yeah.
I love that.
I'm gonna check that book out,that sounds.
Like the ideal thing for atleast the thought process, the
speed of trust, and howimportant trust is in those
relationships.
I love that.
Yep.
What's the first thing younotice when you were recruiting
a player?
And this is a good transition towhat we're gonna talk about
next.
(50:47):
I'm sorry.
I was looking it up.
It is Steven Covey.
Love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can't go wrong with Coveybooks.
Yeah.
What's the first thing younotice when you're recruiting a
player?
Oh.
And maybe a better question tostart with.
Do you recruit?
No, I think you recruityourself.
I, the loaded question for me,the first thing I notice is
size.
Okay.
See, I that, that doesn't makesense.
(51:08):
So the first thing, your eyesgravitate to a six three guy
hitting left-handed.
Yeah.
Or a six three guy on the hill.
Yeah.
It just, it is what it is.
Except that, but that I.
I just recruited two middleinfielders this year in our
first recruit class, and I thinkthey're dynamic athletes, right?
Yeah.
And so it's just because I mightgo to the field and my eyes
(51:32):
gravitate to the six three kid.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Doesn't mean my best playershave been guys that have been
undersized.
Yeah.
This is baseball's the equalizersize actually doesn't always
matter.
Does is speed the thing thatgets you hooked though?
Size might catch your eye.
Is it the speed and theathleticism that you I think
(51:53):
athleticism.
I think athleticism, although Irun a lot more as a coach
strategically now.
Yeah.
I think because I got taughtfrom a former teammate of mine
when I went back to Tufts.
Incredible guy.
He came on board with me, one ofthe best coaching experiences of
my life.
He was great at the base runninggame Mike Ward.
Very good friends with him andMike taught me a running game
(52:14):
and I've like literallyimplemented that.
So it goes back to you evolvenow.
I kinda, if I can find a guythat can run, I know I've been
taught from Mike a way to teachthem how to do this
successfully, that's gonna be anasset for my team when I, that's
huge.
When I was younger, I might'vesaid, ah, you don't have to run
hard if you put it on the otherside of the fence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(52:35):
Now I'm looking for that dualthreat guy.
Yeah.
I love how it's coming back.
We talked about the earlyeighties and how things were, I
feel like speed is coming backto the game.
Yeah.
It's and maybe we needed toshorten the, make the bases
bigger and change some of therules at the major league
baseball to do it.
But you're starting to see Yeahspeed is so huge.
I see.
In the big leagues.
I, one of the things with Voda,I would be like, I te I'll text
(52:57):
him'cause I'm watching thegames.
I'm like, Hey, you guys areripping third base now.
Huh?
Big leagues are a littledifferent.
And he was, yeah, he was safetysqueezing.
They were playing some smallball last year in that run.
Love it.
And he was like, good for you.
That's baseball, right?
Favorite ballpark you've evercoached in?
Oh, I don't even wanna say thison here.
(53:19):
Point Loma is pretty, or maybeyour favorite ballpark you like
to visit.
Point Loma is pretty nice.
I used to kid around with myAzusa guys.
I was like, Hey man.
If it was, shoot, Jay Johnsonwas there when I was at Jay
Johnson with LSU was there when?
Yeah, Azusa and I used to go,Hey guys, if Jay or Joe
Schafer's at NorthwestNazarene's done an incredible
(53:40):
job, coach gets him.
I'm like, Hey, if Joe calls meover and says I can be his
assistant, I'm coming.
I'm bringing a surfboard.
And they'd all be like, come oncoach.
It was so nice.
Westmont.
I'll tell you what we, we're apretty close second to that,
we're a little further away fromthe ocean, but when I walk down
from my office, we have anincredible ground crew.
Jorge Santos is amazing.
(54:00):
So like the grass is perfectlygreen and cut, and the weather's
beautiful.
And I walk down from a hill downto our field and I can see the
Pacific Ocean off in thedistance.
I love it.
Right field.
So I would say those too.
I'm a Boston guy, so FenwayPark, it's pretty cool.
Yeah.
Never coached in Fenway, butbeen there about bunch of times.
(54:20):
Pretty cool to go.
Yeah.
Fraser quote, you see all thetime to your players.
Oh, shoot.
Or they tease you about or theycome back to you with a lot,
man.
I don't know.
I do follow up.
I probably did it on this podright now.
I always go, does that makesense?
(54:42):
Yeah.
And I'll give it that one, yeah.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
And so they, they probably wouldkick that back to me quite a
bit.
I do that a lot myself.
Last one this one you'll havesome fun with.
What's the most underrated skillin a great teammate?
Underrated skill?
Yeah.
Or characteristic.
(55:02):
Man I selflessness that's a big,easy word to say, but like utter
selflessness.
And doing it in a fashion whereyou actually know that this kid,
this young man or player puts mypersonal success ahead of his
own.
So I think being a part of greatteams, I had incredible teams at
(55:26):
Pomona.
I felt like kids did that atAzusa Pacific.
There was some incredible teamsthat I was like, I'd go home and
my wife would say, how's itgoing?
I'm like, this group of kids?
I'm like, when this guy bangs adouble, these three guys look
more excited than when they bangtheir double.
They really are into like beingthere for their teammate.
(55:47):
And then we had a young man thisyear on our team Griffin Brown
he's a backup catcher.
So he is a bullpen catcher forthree years.
He's been a bullpen catcher.
And I think he's.
Dynamite baseball player and allI heard about was Griffin.
Griffin.
Griffin Brown.
And he's a good athlete.
He's, I played him in centerfield at the end of the year.
He never, only because he'd goout and shag during BP and I'd
(56:07):
be like, Hey, is that ourstarter out?
'Cause I'm old, I can't see outin center field if I don't have
my glasses.
And they're like, no, that's gr.
And I'm like, Griffin Brown.
And he'd be chasing balls down.
So we had wrapped up, I hadheard, we were at Azusa where I
had been 19 years and we had wongame one, which meant we won the
regular season.
So I said, Hey Griff, you'regonna play center.
(56:29):
And he did an incredible job outthere.
But he, everything I heard abouthim when I came into this
program was this kid's like arockstar teammate.
And then I got to observe itthis year and was really cool.
I'll tell you this story'causewe had a group of alum that are
incredible at Westmont and BrettBegar was a former player here
and a former coach who hadpassed a few years back and his
(56:51):
class of guys came together andsaid, we wanna raise money and
give out a scholarship in hisname.
And what we would like you to dois pick an athlete that reflects
Brett's values of leadership andselflessness and commitments to
the team.
And it was a pretty heftyscholarship.
And they said, we want you togive it out to a non-scholarship
(57:12):
athlete on your team.
We're not at our scholarshiplimits.
So it's easy for me to be ableto do that.
Yeah.
And instantly when they broughtme this and we collaborated and
I talked to Mrs.
Begar Brett's wife, and wetalked about these
characteristics, I said, I getthe guy for you.
That's awesome.
And it was this kid, GriffinBrown, and so going into his
senior year, he got this reallysurprise gift from a group of
(57:34):
alum towards his tuition that hejust reflects like a pure
interest in helping histeammates.
Yeah.
And then so those kids cancelebr that I'm a big believer
in celebrating those kids overthe starters because the
starters, you get yourcelebration by knocking the head
or striking that guy out.
(57:55):
It's all the kids that nobodysees at practice, as, as a
coach.
Yep.
So I That's incredible.
Those guys, the ones that aren'tgetting their 24 at bats every
week.
Yes, exactly.
That are still loving it.
And I, and you tell me if I'mwrong, but I'm constantly
teaching kids.
Not to fail the way I failed, Iforgot how important it was to
(58:17):
put that jersey on.
I forgot how important I got tobe outside playing.
Yeah.
I forgot how important it wasthat I got to be on a team.
And I got to play a game I lovedevery day.
Yep.
And when you have kids like thatand they're role models and
they're leaders, man, yourculture can change so quickly
for the better.
100%.
Love it.
I had a young man this year, Ihad to we had some things go on
(58:41):
and I couldn't bring him to you,you can, you have to reduce your
roster size.
And so then there was some otherthings.
And so tough con you have thosetough, caring conversations, but
you're like, Hey man, and andI'm getting to know these guys,
right?
And it's a culture.
And I'm like, Hey man I loveyou, but this went on and now we
have to have some, we gottaaddress it.
(59:01):
And so we're leaving to go up toour first conference tournament.
And he knows he's not coming.
He's at the bus at 6:00 AMknocking all his teammates.
Wow.
And I, at first I was like, danggood for that.
And he was an old junior, and Iwas like, man, I, what a level
of respect I have for this youngman.
We get back, we, the kids wonthe conference tournament.
(59:25):
We get back late that evening.
He's at the bus stop when allthe, all his teammates walk off.
And I told him at the end of theyear, I pulled him aside a
couple days after that and Isaid, Hey man that you are an
incredible one human being andtwo teammate.
And the reason why this teamwins is because of guys like yo.
(59:50):
So it's cool when you as a coachcan watch that and you had
nothing to do with it.
Yeah.
You just got an opportunity tobe a part of it.
Yeah.
So coach thank you so much forbeing you.
Thank you so much for beingauthentic and we just, we need
more coaches in the world likeyou.
And I'm so glad I got to shareyou with our audience today.
So I'm looking forward totalking some recruiting with you
(01:00:11):
here in a bit.
Thanks.
Yeah, right back at you.
Be.
That's a wrap on this week'sepisode.
A big thank you to coach PaulVDIs for joining me today and
sharing such powerful insight onleadership, culture, and the
long game of coaching.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, be sure to check
out my other episodes andsubscribe so you never miss
what's next.
And don't forget whether you'rea coach looking to build
(01:00:34):
something special or a familynavigating the recruiting
process, you can visit coachmatt rogers.com to explore my
books, significant Recruitingand the Softball Recruits
Journal, and to schedule a freecoaching or recruiting session
with me.
As always, remember thisleadership is about
significance, not just success.
Thanks for listening.
See you next time.
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