July 4, 2025 • 54 mins
Brotherhood, Basketball & Building Men – A Coaching Conversation with Chris Bunch
Description:
In this episode of Significant Coaching, I sit down with one of my great friends in the world of college sports—Coach Chris Bunch, Head Men's Basketball Coach at Webster University. Chris and I started our college coaching journeys nearly 25 years ago in the St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference, where our teams had epic battles and an instant respect was formed.
This conversation is personal. It’s real. And it’s packed with wisdom.
We talk about the evolution of coaching, the pressure and privilege of leading young men, and the legacy we hope to leave behind. Chris is one of the most loyal, generous, and thoughtful leaders I know—on and off the court. He also wrote the Coach’s Perspective for Chapter 8 of my book Significant Recruiting, and I’m incredibly thankful for his voice in this space.
Whether you're a coach, parent, or athlete, this episode will remind you why relationships matter more than records—and why coaching with heart still wins.
🎧 Subscribe and listen now.
🔗 Learn more or grab your copy of Significant Recruiting at CoachMattRogers.com
Learn more and connect with Matt Rogers here: https://linktr.ee/coachmattrogers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
in our individual meetings atthe end of the year, I always
(00:02):
say this.
I say, Hey, we both got a job todo here.
My job is to recruit somebodybetter than you your job is to
work hard enough and get betterenough that I can't do that.
And if we both do our jobs,we're gonna have one heck of a
good time here.
(00:28):
Welcome back to another episodeof Significant Coaching.
I'm your host, Matt Rogers.
Today's episode is a specialone, and I mean that from the
Heart Coach Chris Bunch, and Istarted our college coaching
journeys nearly 25 years ago inthe St.
Louis Intercollegiate AthleticConference.
The Slack Coach Bunch was atWebster University where he is
been for the last 24 years, andI was at Maryville University of
(00:51):
St.
Louis.
Our teams had some epic battlesover the years, but what I
remember most is the mutualrespect we had for each other,
our programs, and the way weapproached the game.
This conversation, it'spersonal, it's joyful, and
honestly it's a little selfishit because you'll hear the pure
joy in my voice getting to talkcoaching and hoops with one of
(01:12):
my great friends in the world ofcollege sports.
If you could pick someone tohave in your corner, whether
it's a friend or a big brother,Chris Bunch, is that guy, kind,
loyal, generous, and on top ofthat, one of the best leaders of
young men and the sharpesttacticians of basketball.
I know I.
Chris also played a big role inmy book, significant Recruiting,
(01:34):
writing the coach's perspectivefor Chapter eight.
I'm so thankful for his wisdom,his generosity, and his belief
in helping young people navigatethis world the right way.
So settle in.
You're about to hear from a manwho not only knows how to win on
the court, but who's made alasting impact for hundreds of
young people off the court.
(01:55):
Let's get into it.
Here's my conversation withCoach Chris Budge.
Coach Bunch.
It's always great to see you.
I miss our conversations a tonand it's great following your
team.
I wanna talk about small collegebasketball with you.
Okay.
Where's it at?
Where's it at?
25 years ago we started in theSly Act together.
(02:19):
Where is Division threebasketball at today?
What's changed in 25 years?
I, ugh I think, oddly you askedme this last week, I was at the
Tennessee Basketball CoachesAssociation had a team camp in
Nashville, and I went and sawRaul Pius, who's, who was the
guy that replaced Randy Lambertat Maryville College where I was
(02:40):
at before I came here.
20, yeah.
Is this my, this year?
24 now?
Yeah, 24 years ago.
And he and I were talking and wewere just talking about that
very thing.
It has changed a lot.
Our league has changed a lot.
I don't sometimes think about itbecause I'm in it, and so I'm
just doing it.
And then, but like other peoplewill say, Mike Senior, who's.
(03:03):
Started helping me again thelast couple of years and was
helping me my first nine years.
When you, when I at Maryvillehere in St.
Louis he talks about our leagueand how different it is, how
much more athletic it is, howmuch more, he thinks it's
better.
And I don't necessarily thinkthe players, all these guys I
(03:24):
coached 20 years ago couldn'tplay and now my players are
better.
I don't know that's the case,but it's different.
The style of play is different.
Obviously Greenville being ourleague and running the system
has changed, people have had tocounter punch to try and have to
be able to play them, and and Ithink just the whole analytics.
(03:45):
Everybody's got access toanalytics.
Now.
I can pull up stuff on Synergyand see all this stuff more than
I don't use it.
Yeah, exactly.
Me, it has changed.
Now everybody's shooting, get tothe rim or shoot threes and cut
out the mid-range and all ofthat.
And so it's, it has changed.
I think even it's trickled, ithas trickled down to our level,
(04:07):
that aspect of it.
I do think maybe the biggestchange in the, I've seen in the
last 2, 3, 4 years is thedifference in who people are
recruiting.
For example, and I was talkingabout that with coach laces at
Maryville College last weekend.
He said.
(04:29):
I said, I don't, I used to knowwho to go after.
I'd go to a U tournament or ahigh school team camp and you'd
watch a game and this guy wouldbe scoring 27 and you'd be like,
yeah, I know I can't get thatguy.
What about this guy or this guy?
And you're trying to figure outwho, who was good enough to help
you, but it wasn't so good thatall the scholarship people would
be all over'em.
Now, I don't know if, I knowmany times who that is because
(04:54):
the division one and divisiontwo schools aren't recruiting
high school kids other than thecreme de la creme of high school
kids.
And so I'm seeing more kids thatI thought five, 10 years ago I
can't get that kid.
And now maybe I can get that kidbecause he don't, he doesn't
have as much stuff going on, andI think that has changed a
(05:14):
little bit too.
I think that, I think it's, Ithink it's tougher for high
school kids because they'resitting around waiting for that
scholarship offer to come and.
Yeah, they're not recruiting an18-year-old.
They're wanting a 22-year-old ora bounce back from a division
one, if they're division two ora division two.
If they're division three or NAIor whatever.
And then there's the JUCO aspectof it.
(05:35):
It's, I think it has narrowedwhat high school kids, their
avenues have narrowed a littlebit, that it's probably been
good for transfers as far as,because everybody's, everybody
wants a 21-year-old now.
They don't want a 17 or18-year-old.
It's, that part of it I thinkhas definitely changed.
(05:56):
It's the math that doesn't addup for me.
Okay.
So there, there's 2000 young menin the portal.
How is it that there's no roomfor high school kids?
I, and is it just.
Revolving chairs and you'resitting in this chair one day
and then you're in another chairand that guy's taking the kid
that was in your chair.
(06:16):
It just seems like there shouldbe more room for these high
school kids to find their way.
But every D two, every NAI,every D one coach tells me we're
not gonna recruit high schoolkids until we know we've gotten
out of the portal what we need.
And then it's just it's beenflipped upside down from where
it was 20 years ago.
We used, we, we used to recruitall of our high school kids two
(06:39):
years in advance, get ourcommitments, and then if we knew
we were gonna need a transfer,we'd start looking for a JUCO
kid, we'd start looking for thattransfer.
Isn't that wild?
It's very different.
And like I say, sometimes I gosit in like last weekend I'm
sitting watching six courts andI'm just like, at one point I
told, I went home and told mywife, I said she was how was it?
I said, at one point I was justbewildered because I'm looking
(07:02):
and I'm like.
I don't know, do I, could I getthat kid?
Could I not get that kid?
Do I want to contact 20 peoplehere?
Do I wanna contact a hundredpeople from here?
It's yeah.
I see it.
It's it was a little tougher forme this time because you think I
don't know, maybe I can get thatguy.
Or and I think the thing, it'sthat no one understands about
the portal.
And I'm sure you do because youdo all the recruiting stuff
(07:23):
nowadays.
But I read something the otherday where 30, 30% of people in
the portal get anotheropportunity somewhere 33 out of
10, 30%.
And I had two guys last yearthat were seniors and they
wanted to go play one more.
They had one more year to play.
(07:45):
Yeah.
And they didn't wanna do gradschool here because it was gonna
be too expensive.
So they were gonna go back towhere they were from.
And, they entered the portal andI think they were a little
disappointed.
That they didn't get more heatthan they got.
And it's I think that's thereality.
I think a lot of people thinkI'll just get somebody's unhappy
at school X.
(08:05):
I'll just go to the, enter theportal and everybody's just
gonna start calling me.
And they're not, and I think forthe majority of people, they're
sitting around and then in Juneand July they're starting to
call people just like they,people always did.
Oh, I don't have anybodyrecruiting me.
And it's I think that's the bigmisconception about the portal
is everybody enters the portaland finds a place.
(08:30):
There's a small chance thatyou'll find a, you might find a
place, then the question is, doyou find a place that is what
you are looking for?
Exactly.
And I say that percentageprobably is even smaller than
30%.
So it's, yeah, it's a crapshoot.
And I don't know that kidsplaying on rosters now.
(08:50):
Completely understand that.
I think you, and go back to whatwe started with.
I watch your teams play.
Now I watch you play againstGeorge at Greenville.
I watch you play againstSpalding.
I'll watch you, I'll watch youplay against Fon and I don't
ever remember us having thosetype of athletes and the size
that I'm seeing in the Slack.
Now that I, you, you might'vehad a, you might've had a
(09:12):
Connie, 1, 6, 7 kid that landedin your lap.
Absolutely.
I might've got a six, seven kidthat landed in my lap, but it
was really rare if we had threeguys bigger than six foot four
on the floor at one time.
Now I'm watching these games andI'm going, am I watching the
right teams?
This looks like a D two game.
This looks like a high level nAI game, or a, a Division one
(09:34):
JUCO game.
Are you, do you think the kidsand the families are figuring
that out and they're saying, weneed to go where we can be
appreciated and play I do.
I do think there's a little bitof, and I said this when I first
came to St.
Louis, and I still think that Ibattle this sometimes.
When I was at Maryville Collegein Tennessee, they were good and
(09:56):
they would go play division twoteams in that area and win or
play'em within a two, threepoint game, right?
They would play, they were likeone of the best programs, small
college programs in EastTennessee.
So when we would go to Knoxvilleand recruit kids, there wasn't
really a, oh that's divisionthree.
When I came here 24 years ago,that hit me like a pie in the
(10:20):
face.
I would go out and people wouldbe like.
I'd say, do you have any,talking to high school coach,
they'd say I've got a guy thatcan help you, and he would want
to give me their second guy offthe bench.
He can go play for you.
And maybe that guy played atWebster or Fon or Maryville in
the late eighties, earlynineties when they were just
getting started and it was like,oh yeah they're the perception
(10:41):
still, I think with a certainpercentage of people in St.
Louis is, oh, that's divisionthree.
Anybody can go there and play.
I, right?
I have coaches tell me no, my,my kid's way better than
division three and I want to go,come watch us play Illinois
Wesley or Wash U and I want youto tell me if you think that kid
is better than division three.
(11:03):
I'm not talking about us, butI'm talking about, Illinois
Wesley and Wash UI.
Come watch us play Wash U thenyou tell me if you think, your
kid is so much better thandivision three and.
And I've had a lot of coaches,I've had a lot of high school
coaches come with their kids andwatch us play Font Bon or
Spalding or Greenville andthey're like, man, I, you guys
are pretty good.
I didn't realize it was thatgood.
(11:25):
And I'm like, every level hasgot people that can play EE.
Every team has got a bunch ofhigh, some high school's best
player playing on their team.
And it's so it's I do think thathas changed a little bit, but I
still think that perceptionmight be out there some with
division three, but I do thinkthat is changing because it's
like I gotta go where I can.
(11:47):
I, the other question I get fromrecruits and I got up the tongue
for this year where do you seeme fitting in?
And that's a very tough questionfor me this year because as font
bond closed at the end of thisyear.
Yeah.
So we're gonna have a couple ofguys from font bond.
Come play for us.
I got a couple other guys comingfrom, we got some people coming
from different places and Iprobably have more transfers
(12:10):
than I've ever had.
It's just a, it's just afreakish year that's happened
that way.
But, I and Mike Senior told meyears ago, I'm too honest in my
recruiting.
I, he goes, man you tell peopletoo much sometimes.
But I have had to talk to thesekids about, look, this is gonna
be a compe.
I do, I think you can play inWebster University someday.
(12:31):
Yes.
Or I wouldn't be recruiting Youdo.
I think you could be a goodplayer here and have a great
career.
Yes.
Are you going to come in hereand play 20 minutes right away
next year?
You better be ready to competefor it because it's going to be
a very competitive situation.
And I'm not, I don't make anypromises to high school kids.
And sometimes I think that'swhat they want to hear is I'm
gonna go I wanna go somewherewhere I can play right away and
(12:54):
I almost sometimes want to go.
Where is that exactly?
Yeah.
Now certain kids can, but justthe average kid, I'm not, I'm
like I, that's, I almostsometimes wanna go, where do you
think that is?
Because all these places, you'regoing to have to earn playing
time no matter where you go.
And I always have a freshmanplaying for, but it may
(13:15):
sometimes not be the freshmanthat I thought was going play
for me.
I thought, that guy that'sright.
Gonna play for me now it's thisguy playing for me instead.
But it's, it's a verycompetitive it's gotten much
tougher, I think, for highschool students.
Would you prefer the questionwe're asked to you?
Do you see me having a chance tocompete for playing time next
(13:36):
year?
Yes.
Yes.
The, that's easier to answer,isn't it?
That's easier to answer.
And it's, and I try I try andbe, I.
I tried deliver that in a waythat's not, I probably al I see
that right then I deliver itwith the people sitting in the
room.
But it's, but it is, if I didn'tthink you could play, I wouldn't
(14:00):
have you sitting here in thisoffice right now.
You know what I mean?
It's, that's right.
I do think you can play, I dosee you playing here someday.
Will you play next year?
You might, but you're going toearn it if you do.
And it's gonna be competitive.
And, great quote from ourbaseball coach.
He says this to his kids all thetime.
I say to my guys, now, I neverused to say this, but I say it
(14:23):
straight to them.
I used to say this in adifferent way.
Now, this is the best way I knowto say it.
I, in, in our individualmeetings at the end of the year,
I always say this.
I say, Hey, we both got a job todo here.
My job is to recruit somebodybetter than you here.
Your job is to work hard enoughand get better enough and
develop through weight training,working on your game in the gym,
(14:45):
playing basket, playing five onfive in the off season.
It's your job to be good enoughthat I can't do that.
And if we both do our jobs,we're gonna have one heck of a
good time here.
And absolutely.
And it's, I think the, I thinksometimes the kid's perception
is, it's like high school, nextyear it's my turn.
(15:05):
And I'm like, not necessarily,it might be and it might not be,
and so I do think that thetoughest question for me to ask,
and I just sit and wait for it.
Every visit I have is the, wheredo you see me fitting me in next
year?
I wanna go to more Rock.
Or mom or dad will say he wantsto go somewhere where he can
play right away.
(15:26):
I have told kids that haveemailed me and kids that have,
I, I've talked to some kids onthe phone and I've just told
them, Hey look, I got 25 guysnext year and we've got a ton of
guards, and if you want to comehere, I maybe would be
interested, but you need tounderstand up front nothing is
promised here and there's gonnabe 15 other guards in this
(15:48):
program trying to keep you fromplaying.
Yeah.
And I can't promise youanything.
And a lot of kids have said,coach, I appreciate your
honesty.
It's I just, I wanna save yousome time because if you're
looking for some place, ifyou're, if you need to hear, and
I've probably lost a lot of guysin 25 years recruiting this.
If you need to hear me say Yes,come here next year and you'll
(16:09):
play.
I am just not going to say that.
Yeah.
Because that is something Icannot guarantee.
Yeah.
And it doesn't matter how goodyou are.
No.
It doesn't matter.
If you were Allstate and you'resix foot four and shot 38% for
the field.
We're pretty sure you're gonnacome in here and fail at some
point.
And you're probably gonna failin the first semester, if not
first and sec se secondsemester.
(16:29):
It's almost like we need to tella kid if you do come in and
you're playing 15 minutes game,either something went
dramatically wrong or we'rereally good this year'cause
we're already pretty, and ifyou're coming in, getting that
many minutes right, we'reprobably pretty good or Right.
We got a bunch of injuries andsomething went wrong.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yes.
And it's I had three guys thisyear played his sophomores three
(16:53):
of my top six were sophomoresthis year.
And they all played, they allstarted at different times.
One big, I had a big kid thatjust graduated, that was the all
time leading shot blocker inconference history.
He was the third all timeleading rebounder in conference
history.
He's the all time leading shotblocker in rebounder here at
Webster.
He scored a thousand points.
(17:14):
He was three years in a row, thedefensive player of the year in
the conference.
And the guy playing behind himwas a sophomore.
That was six.
Six or seven.
And when Carl got hurt for threegames in January, when the
conference, he going, Justinscored 20 points in every one of
those three games.
And then Carl came back and Ihad to go all right.
He went back to playing 15minutes off the pitch and it was
(17:37):
like, and it was so he averagednine or 10 points a game
essentially coming off thebench.
Although he did start some, Ihad another sophomore that
averaged 13 and a half points agame as a sophomore.
I had another guard that startedoff and on throughout the year,
but at three different gamesthis year, scored 20 points in a
game.
'cause he's a good perimetershooter and he just had some
games.
(17:57):
He got hot outside and made somethrees.
But he's a good player.
Those three guys.
And I tell everyone coming inthis, those three guys as
freshmen all dressed on thevarsity for me.
The big kid played some becausewe didn't have any other big
guys.
The other two hardly played atall, and yet they were two of my
(18:19):
top six this year and reallygood and will be even better in
the next couple of years, Ibelieve.
And so it's, there'sopportunities for you to play
early in your career.
It might not be the first gameof your freshman year, I was
like, it and E, everybody has togo through that.
(18:40):
Figuring out what college isabout, figuring out a new place,
figuring out your new teammates,figuring out your new coach, and
what are his hot buttons andwhat does he value?
And emphasize your coacheshaving time to watch you every
day in and out and see what yourwork ethic is and see what your
attitude is and see what your.
(19:02):
Ability to perceive and learnthe system that you're doing.
It takes time.
It's it, my dad told me one timeyears ago, I wanted it to all
happen for me right away when Iwas coaching in high school, and
I'm complaining about how itwasn't coming together.
And my dad, he had such acountry way of saying things and
he would say things and thetimes you'd think, what, what
(19:22):
are you talking about?
But then I would think about itand go, oh, he and he turn just
turned and looked at me andsaid, son, you can want a flower
to open up and bloom, but if youjust try and grab the pedals and
pull it open, you just gonnapull the pedals off of it and
just kill it.
Yeah.
And he said, he goes, it'llbloom when it's ready to bloom.
And I was like, what?
What do you do?
(19:42):
I don't wanna hear that crap.
Yeah.
But it's very, but that's verytrue.
It takes time for it to all cometogether.
And I think sometimes that'swhat Matt, when I played.
You were in seventh grade, youwatched the eighth graders play.
That's right.
You played when you were ineighth grade and then you went
to high school.
And when you were a freshman, ifyour program was good, you
(20:04):
watched the sophomores play onthe jv, and then when you were a
sophomore, you started on the JVand maybe you dressed varsity,
and then your junior year youwere on the varsity and if you
were good, you played.
Yep.
Then we went to college.
I went to a really good programin college and I, my first year
I played nine games out of 35.
Yep.
That's all I was, it was all endof the game.
We're up 30, get out there fortwo minutes and get a shot up.
(20:28):
It's and then my sophomore yearI started getting to play again
and I'm surprised sometimes nowbecause I think a lot of kids
just they, for whatever reasonthey got to play a u, you go
play a u in the summer,everybody gets to play.
Everybody gets to start at somepoint.
Everybody's playing.
Over half the game or more.
So they want to go, they justthink that every stop along the
(20:50):
way.
I'm I get to play.
And I do think sometimes that'stough because when I was growing
up and I went to high school, orI went to college my freshman
year and I didn't play, I waslike, yeah, these guys are good.
I don't, I'm the worst guy inhere.
I don't need to be, but I wascoming from a different mindset
at that time.
And so I think it's, I thinksometimes it's Can you shift
(21:14):
your thinking a little bit?
And I have talks with kids oncethey're here a lot about, yes.
I've told kids before, yes, youcan transfer.
You're gonna start this processall over again if you transfer.
Yeah.
A kid I, a kid that I like, akid that I really want, some
kids they come and tell youthey're gonna transfer you.
Okay.
But it's I've had other kidswhere I'm like, if you do this,
(21:34):
you're gonna start this wholeprocess over.
And you have one year list now.
To figure it out than you hadwhen you came here and started
this process.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I said it's, I've seen a lotof kids that would've done well
if they would've just hung in.
And I, Matt I've told a lot ofpeople this, I have not had a
(21:56):
lot of kids leave here and gosomewhere else and flourish.
Yeah.
This is it's different if you'redivision one maybe, but I said
I've not had a lot of kids comehere and not play and go
somewhere else and flourish.
Yeah.
Most of the time they.
That's the end.
I, I don't, we don't see, Idon't see it at any level.
Even these transfers, it's sorare.
(22:16):
We hear about those kids thatget drafted, that transferred
and got drafted.
Absolutely.
But there's another hundred thattransferred and were the six man
and got 12 minutes a game.
Or if that if, so I it's allfrustrating.
And it's a big part of why Icontinue to do this podcast.
I want families and kids to hearcollege coaches have this
(22:40):
conversation.
I want these families tounderstand this is how we talk
to each other.
This is how we think.
And we're smart about it.
We don't wanna lose, we like ourjob.
If we go seven and 18, a coupleyears in a row, they're looking
for another coach.
So if you think I'm not playingyou for political reasons or.
(23:03):
Emotional reasons, or, it'ssomething about our
relationship.
You're crazy.
If you're in my roster and youcan help me win, I'm finding a
spot for you.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
If you're not playing, it meansthere's somebody else that's
making us better than you.
Absolutely.
Or at least at the very least,Matt, the coach, we're all
(23:25):
human.
I've looked at guys and beenlike, man I, I realize later I
should have played this guy overhere more.
Yeah.
We're all, we make mistakes too,but I think it's a mistake.
I tell my guys this sometimesthat, we finally have the
discussion where I'm in theoffice and they came in two
times to talk to me aboutplaying time, and we've talked
about what they can do andfinally I get to the point
(23:47):
where, look, I just don't thinkyou give us the best chance to
win.
That's right.
And you have to make me see.
That you give us the best chanceto win every day in practice in
a junior varsity or reservegame, you need to show me, I
(24:07):
said, a lot of guys don't wannaplay a reserve game or JV game
and you go to a JV game andscore 25.
I go, maybe I need think this.
Yeah.
If you're playing a JD game andscore two points in 25 minutes,
all you did was reaffirm, thatyou're probably not impact,
you're not gonna impact the gameenough.
And so it's I will finally justget to the point where I say,
(24:29):
this is where I'm at, and I knowthis stinks for you.
And this is hard for you and Iunderstand that.
And, but I have to make the bestdecision I can and maybe I'm
making the wrong one, but I haveto go with what I think is.
What I think is the bestdecision.
Yeah.
And it's not personal.
And you're going to have toeither be okay with that and
(24:51):
continue to work, or I'll helpyou find somewhere else.
Yeah, no, I, if you wanna gosomewhere else, I'll help you
find somewhere else if I can.
It's it's not per 95% of thetime, it's not personal.
The coach didn't like me, no.
And in those cases where thecoach didn't like you, you
probably weren't behaving in avery likable manner.
(25:12):
That's right.
And I finally will just get tothat point to where I may be
making a mistake, I will admitthat.
But this is where I'm at.
And you're gonna have to be, andI tell our guys this all the
time, and I'll say it 50 timesagain next year, I'll say, play
as a player, you have theopportunity to.
(25:33):
To be egocentric.
And I don't mean egotistical,egocentric.
You're looking around and going,how is all this affecting me?
Am I happy?
Am I getting what I want out ofthis?
And I'll say, you have tounderstand as the any coach, but
especially the head coach, Inever get to think like that.
(25:55):
Yes, do.
I have a guy and gosh, he's thebest guy we've got, I'm just
speaking hypothetically here.
You have a kid and he's greatattitude, works hard.
He's got the, he stands on thebench and stands up and claps
every time somebody doessomething he is, he's the
leader.
He's the, you love him.
You'd want your, if you had adaughter, you'd want him to
marry her, but he doesn't giveyou the best chance to win.
(26:17):
I can't go, man.
I really love this guy.
I'm going to play him instead,if I'm trying to do, if I'm
being honest to myself and theteam and trying to do what's
best for everyone.
I have to not play that guy.
Yeah.
And it's a heartbreaker, it's aheart wrencher for the coach as
well as the player.
And I said they, they need tounderstand that a coach never,
(26:40):
if he's doing it the right way,he never gets to look at it from
that perspective.
I'm gonna do what I would liketo do.
That's not necessarily, I haveto do what I think is the best
for the collective.
And a lot of times, what's bestfor the collective really stinks
for this one guy.
And I can't help that.
(27:01):
I'm human.
This is an imperfect world.
I can't make it work foreverybody.
25 guys.
I can't make it work foreverybody.
I have to do the very best Ican.
I'm gonna treat, I telleverybody I'm gonna treat you as
good as I can, as well as I can.
I'm gonna give everybody thesame opportunity.
I'm not gonna let some guys eatand not let other guys eat.
I'm not gonna give some guys.
(27:23):
Travel suits and backpacks andnot give everybody a travel suit
and a backpack.
I, if you come in with a problemin class or you have a problem
with your financial aid, I'mgonna sit down with you and I'm
gonna call whoever I need tocall to try and make that better
for you.
If you get sick at night, I,whether you play for me or not,
I'm gonna come pick you up andtake you to the emergency room
and sit there with y'all.
(27:43):
All of those things, I'm gonnado all of that stuff for
everybody I've got.
But when it comes to the playingtime, that's the one area that I
can't spread it out to all 20,25 guys.
It, you know it.
At that point, I have to makesome tough choices, but that is
the reason I would want my sonto play for you.
(28:04):
That is the reason that if I'm aparent or I'm talking to a
parent, it's why I would say, gotalk to Chris Bunch because
you're gonna get the truth.
You're gonna get it direct.
He's gonna take care of you,he's gonna care about you.
He's gonna put you beforehimself That.
Is the definition of a coach.
I hope it's, and I know Mikewould tease you about being too
(28:27):
honest with recruitment but atthe end of the day, you don't, I
never did.
I don't want to deal with aproblem I'm looking at in a year
when I already know it's aproblem.
I'd rather they know the truth.
So they go I don't know if Iwanna play for him.
He's really hard, he's reallytough on his guys.
Even the guys say he's hard toplay for sometimes.
(28:48):
He's gonna get on you.
He's gonna love you, but he'sgonna kick you in the butt,
whatever that may be.
I'd rather they know thatupfront.
'cause I don't want you here, Idon't wanna have to recruit your
position again a year.
'cause we find out 12 monthsfrom now, we're not a good fit
for each other.
I tell guys all the time, I'llsay, Hey, look, if I lie to you
and say, oh, come here, you'llplay.
Yeah.
I tell everybody that.
Yeah.
Then when everybody gets here,somebody's not playing.
(29:09):
And I said, if I lied to you,then you're gonna be unhappy.
You're gonna sit around andyou're gonna complain to the
other guys in the team.
And at some point, some of themare gonna start getting unhappy.
Yeah.
And then you're gonna call homeand you're gonna complain to mom
and dad and they're gonna beunhappy.
And as it progresses, at somepoint I get to be unhappy
(29:30):
because I lied to you aboutwhere I see you from.
And I said, that's right.
And at 58 years old, I'm too oldfor that.
I, it's hopefully I've got 10more years or 15 more years of
coaching.
I may not have one more year ofcoaching.
I don't know.
But I said I, at this age in mylife and at this stage of my
career, it's, I'm too old forthat.
It's you need to know upfront.
This is where I am.
(29:50):
And if you wanna be here, thengreat.
I would love to have you here.
If not, I understand.
And, whatever.
Yeah.
I think we were too old for itwhen we were in our twenties and
thirties.
That's retrospect.
Yeah.
Okay.
When you look back 24 years, howhave you changed in how you,
(30:14):
I'll throw some opportunity,some actions at you, how you run
a practice.
How's that changed in 24 years?
Has it, yes, I'm sure it has.
It's changed radically in thelast year.
I, like I say, a couple yearsago, Mike was coaching soccer.
He got outta soccer, didn'twanna be the head coach anymore,
didn't wanna have all the headcoach responsibilities and all
(30:35):
that.
His boys are starting to play.
Yeah.
Every sport known to mankind,and it's like he's trying to get
to all their games.
He's not.
And then he came to me and said,Hey, I see you having a, one of
your assistants left.
Can I come back and help you?
And I laughed.
I said, dude, you just retired.
What do you mean you retired amonth ago, now you're wanting to
get back in.
He goes, no, I retired frombeing the head coach.
And so Mike was able to comeback and I've had him the last
(30:58):
couple years.
I had another coach in the area,George Little, that has coached
a lot of different Yeah, Iremember George.
Yeah, George was around when Iwas there.
He's helped me the last twoyears.
Last year.
You remember Cody?
Brad Fish that played for me.
Yeah.
Cody was a high school coach,got.
Different.
He had a couple of kids got in adifferent place in his life and
(31:19):
I had the opportunity last yearto hire him.
And I hired another guy, GregWilliams, who was a successful
high school boys and girls coachfor 30 years and had just
retired from coaching and camehere and worked a couple of
camps for me.
And I was like, if you everwanna get in the, try the
college game again one time I'dlove to have you.
I've got all of those guys.
That's amazing.
And so I have I laugh I say allthe time to people I'm have,
(31:42):
maybe you have as good a staffas any division three coach in
America.
And because they're all older,they've all been head coaches.
They all get it, and next year Ithink we're, it's we've got it
set up.
Lance Thornhill ISS gonna comeover here and he'll wow.
Next year.
That's a division one staff.
You got, and so you've got fourfed coaches.
(32:05):
Exactly.
And not just guys that were headcoaches, but guys that have all
been successful head coaches.
Yes.
And so they all, we have a lot.
In the last year, we've probablyhad more discussions than I've
ever, not that I didn't havediscussions with my other
assistants.
I've had good assistants.
I've been blessed ever sinceI've been here.
But probably more discussionsabout if you were me, what would
(32:26):
you do right here?
A bunch or, I do this, and it'sthat part of it.
I have changed a lot in the lastyear, but probably over time I
did it anyway.
Just when you're young.
And when I was young and firststarted out in coaching high
school, I was blessed slashcursed with coaching at a school
(32:48):
that the girls head coach won90% of the games in his career.
He won four or five statetitles.
They were runner up four or fivetimes, whatever.
What my first year as a highschool head coach, I went seven
and 20.
He had the number two rankedteam in the country by USA today
(33:09):
in girls.
All five of his starting lineupgot a D one scholarship offer
that year.
Wow.
And so it was like, here I amcoaching and I got this guy and
it's like everything I do seemswrong.
And everybody's going y'all do.
Larry Neal does.
It was really tough.
And yet it was really goodbecause Larry was the first guy
(33:31):
to ever be like, let me tell yousomething.
He goes, you, this is, it is notwhat you are doing right now.
He goes, but at, he'd say it, itis the players that you have
until you get better players.
You just have to do as well asyou can.
And he goes, if you should winfive games and you win seven.
(33:53):
You had a great year.
Yeah.
And he'd say, Chris, I can't dothat.
I if I should win 30.
And I, and I win 29, they wantto, they wanna fire me around
here.
He just laughed and he said,it's hard for me to keep
exceeding my own expectation.
He goes, but for you startingoff, that's, you have to think
in lines like that.
And as a young coach, I thinkthat's the hardest thing.
(34:15):
You want everybody to see.
You're in charge.
You want everybody to think youknow what you're doing.
You got every, you got theanswer to everything, and it's
and then you get older and youdo it a while and you realize,
dude I'm an idiot.
I don't know how I don't knowthat, I don't know the answer to
this.
And as you get older, andespecially in this past year, I.
I have been I used to laugh.
(34:35):
I'd come home from practice andChris would say, how'd it go
today?
And I'd say, I went great.
And she goes, I think you'rehaving more fun than you've ever
had.
And I said, I am having more funthan I ever had.
And some days I probably do theuntrained eye.
I just look like Nick Saban.
I'm just walking around andthey're all doing different
skill stations and they'redoing, half court defensive work
(34:56):
on this end offensive, Cody'sgot offensive work on this end.
They're doing stuff.
And I just jump in the drill andbark a little bit and then step
back out and walk around again.
And I see people like that guyain't doing anything.
Yes, I'm sitting down with themand we're talking about the
planning aspect of it.
But I think for a young coach,one of the things you have to
learn is that you have to hiregood assistants and you have to
(35:19):
let them do their thing.
Yeah.
I was fortunate to, every coachI ever worked with did that.
When I went to Maryville, I.
I remember Randy saying, okay,you got the post, go there and
do this re you know, do someoffensive rebounding.
And I was like what drill do youwant me to do?
And he was like hey bunch,you've been a, Hey, you've been
a coach for 11 years.
You ever done a reboundingdrilling practice before?
(35:41):
I was like, yeah, good.
Go do a couple.
If it's wrong, I'll tell you.
And oh God, I said that to Mike.
I said to every assist I had,like Cody came in, he is I wanna
do more shooting in practice.
What kind of drills?
I went, you are the one thatsays you did shooting drills in
practice every day.
He goes I said, do those.
If I don't like'em, I'll tellyou.
And he was like, oh, okay.
And it's I think that, myexpectation is, and Lance, when
(36:03):
we sat down and talked, I waslike, dude, I'm not gonna try
and you beat me like eight outtathe last 11 times.
I'm not gonna try and tell you,oh yeah, I know.
Be quiet.
I know more than it's like thereare things that you do.
You are better at than the, thanI am at those things.
Yep.
I'm gonna let you do thosethings.
Yeah.
And you be the front man and yoube out there in practice
teaching the guys this, whateverit is.
(36:25):
And you're gonna get to do that.
Yeah.
Because instead of you tell meand then let me teach it so all
the guys know that I'm the onein charge.
I said, I think you have to getaway from that.
Yeah.
If you want your staff to enjoyit.
If you want everybody to, if youwant it to be a good situation,
employ I'll tell'em every nowand then, I'll say, all right
(36:47):
guys I'll have some of thepractice plan done and I'll say,
okay, here we are, employeeempowerment segment right here,
Greg, you got these guys downhere for two rounds of 10
minutes.
Cody, you got these two guys.
Do something offense.
Do something defense.
I don't care.
You both coached for 30 years or15 years, whatever.
(37:07):
Do something.
Yeah.
You do what you like to do and Ithink that has worked.
For us a lot better.
Good.
Now granted, I've had all, I'vegot all experienced assistance
that you can do that.
Yeah.
A young guy, I realize you gottahere's a, here's some good drill
to do, or whatever, but it'sI've got older guys and it is
(37:28):
just, it is sometimes, Hey,stupid, get out of the way and
let you know.
There's been times we've calleda timeout and Cody wanted to run
something and I just said, Cody,you tell him.
And it's oh, coach Bunch isn'teven talking to the players in
the timeout.
It's dude, it does, everythingdoesn't have to come through me.
Yeah.
And I think once you getcomfortable with that it makes
(37:50):
everything better.
I think there's more buy-in fromyour assistance.
I think the players respect yourassistance more because, Hey,
this guy's coaching me too.
And I think it helps all the wayaround.
I agree.
Yeah.
But that has changed.
That has changed.
That's probably the main changeI've made over the.
Is I do a lot more of that thanI used to.
(38:10):
I coached high school basketballtwo years ago and I couldn't
find an assistant coach untilNovember 1st.
Couldn't find one.
And then everybody I hired werethe guys that played so little
high school basketball, neversaw college, they were just good
guys.
I spent the whole year coachingthem.
(38:30):
Yes.
Which made it a real challengewhen you have a varsity, a
junior varsity, and a freshmanteam in two different gyms and
Right.
You're trying to help practiceplan and Right.
Teach them what a two, threezone is and how to move in a
two, three zone.
So when you've got coaches, whenI had a Gene Meyers and you've
had a mic and you've got a Llance coming in, it's so much
(38:52):
easier on your soul Yes.
To enjoy the coaching side ofit.
Yes.
But you can say.
I don't have to be thedisciplinarian, I don't have to
be the director every for 120minutes every single day.
Yes.
Yes.
And or I'm gonna go down hereand watch the offensive stuff
that Cody's doing because wedidn't do this very well last
night, so I wanna watch this.
(39:14):
Exactly.
And I don't have to be lookingover my shoulder to make sure
that there's, they're not downthere kicking basketballs off
the wall and goofing around.
There, there's good stuffhappening on that end, and I
don't have to be involved inthat.
Yeah.
They're getting what they needto get, and that's it's I told
somebody at the end of thisyear, I said it wasn't my most
successful year.
Wins and losses and finish andall of that, but it was probably
(39:37):
my favorite year of coachingjust in my mental health.
My happiness and enjoyment.
I.
After games.
And that makes me so happy foryou.
And it I, it was a great year.
I'm hope hoping this year willbe even better, but, it sounds
like you're, it sounds likeyou're, your freshmen.
The software's coming back arejust loaded, you got, so I'm
(39:59):
excited.
I'm so excited for you and forthem.
And, I, knowing you the way Ido, I would imagine last year
was probably the most you'vebeen able to have somebody else
run a drill and you can grab akid, pull'em out, have a two
minute conversation.
Yep.
Do some teaching on the side.
Yeah.
Probably more than you've everbeen able to do.
Yeah, absolutely.
(40:20):
Here was the classic thing,Cody, his wife is a nurse, and
so sometimes she's gotta work.
And so they didn't have schoolone day, and so he had both of
his kids, a 2-year-old and a1-year-old.
And which is not a problem foryou.
I know that.
I'm already well versed withsenior's, three kids.
I've raised his kids, so it's soanyway, Cody would be there and
(40:41):
Selena is crawling around on thefloor there in mid court.
And so it comes time for Cody toget in and do his five on five
segment offensive segment.
And so he's holding her and Isaid, here, gimme that baby.
And so I'm like and they knowme.
His kids know me.
Yes.
I'm walking around with Selenatalking to her, and they were
and somebody came in and went.
(41:02):
That I what is going on?
I God.
But if they know you, that's hogheaven for you going on around
here, that is hog heaven foryou, and I was just like, I'm
just holding Selena and we'retalking and I'm watching, it's
and Cody's Hey, I apologize forthat.
I said, dude, you don't have toapologize for that.
I said, it's part of it, and sothat part of it has been very
good.
That's great.
(41:23):
Having a bunch of guys aroundthat I enjoy, not that I didn't
enjoy my other assistants, I'veenjoyed all my assistants, but
it's there's just more of themthere.
I think we get more stuff donein practice.
Absolutely not because they'rebetter than the assistants I had
prior.
I just have more of them now tobreak things down and
everything.
Oh, it's so much fun, coach man.
You have to be willing to let goof some, let go of some stuff if
(41:49):
you wanna move forward, now Igotta convince Karen to move
back to St.
Louis so I could be youradministrative assistant.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I wanna be the ball boy of thatbadge.
So somebody said, is Lancecoming over here?
He said, good god, bunch.
You're gonna have two rows.
You're gonna be like the NBA,you're gonna have four coaches
sitting in that second rowbehind you.
I said, no, it it is, there's alot there.
(42:09):
There's a, sometimes it's a lotof moving parts.
Now they're not in everypractice because Mike's got his
job that he's doing.
Yeah.
Everybody teaches except theretired coach.
So there's times if we gottapractice at two, it's just me
and Greg, because Mike's at workand the other three guys are
teaching, so it's sometimes it'sjust me and Greg and then, and
it's hey, I've done that.
I've done, I've in high schooland sometimes here at Webster,
(42:32):
I've been one coach and had 25dudes in the gym, and I know how
to do that too.
I can, we do.
I had to, you, you do what yougotta do, but it's it, that part
of it.
I've changed kind of thepractice schedule.
We go late more just so I canhave all my guys there because
it's better situation, all that.
But it's been very good.
It's been very good.
Coach, this has been awesome.
(42:52):
I can talk to you for hours andI miss you so much and
Absolutely.
It's always a joy for me.
Let's do some let's do somecoaching to younger coaches.
Okay.
Real, real quick.
Okay.
Piece of advice that you'velearned over the years or
somebody gave you that you thinkevery young coach should really
embrace?
Couple things.
Be yourself.
(43:12):
I'm a, I think you'll know this.
You did this too.
I'm sure we all do.
Every good coach is a thief.
If I see something I like, I go,oh, I'm going to do that.
That's right.
Before I do that, I gotta makesure I've got the people in
place that can do that.
Before I try and do it, or I'llsee some coach and his coach and
then here again, getting back tomy, the, when coaching in high
(43:34):
school, the girls coach was themost intense human being I ever
met in my life to this day.
And I tried to, and everybodyjust thought that was the way
you won.
You were just a disciplinarianand you were hard on the kids
and just chewing the ears offthe side of somebody's head
(43:54):
every time they were, Larry wasintense all the time.
Never changed.
And I would try and do that, andI would make that about two
days, and I was just exhausted.
I would go home and just be likeI can't do this.
I, how does he do this?
I can't.
And I had to learn over time.
You gotta do, you gotta beyourself, you gotta, and I used
to tell Mike that when he firststarted coaching, I said, Mike,
(44:17):
don't try and be me.
Don't yell because I yell or.
Be not laugh because I laugh orwhatever.
I said, you gotta respond tosituations the way you would
respond to situations.
And I said, you have to be.
I said, yeah, I think you haveto be real with yourself because
kids, people in general, but Ithink sometimes, especially
(44:40):
kids, they see a fake coming amile away.
If you're trying to be somethingthat you're not, man, they pick
up on that quick.
I said, you have to be yourself.
Yeah.
And I think that's one of,that's one thing that young
coaches, they want to be like,oh, I wanna be like Brad
Stevens, or I wanna be likeCoach K, or I wanna be like,
(45:00):
Rick Barnes or whoever.
It's be yourself.
Be who you are because you'll bemuch happier with your, and
you're much more comfortablewith yourself than you are with
anybody else.
So it's you need to try and beyourself.
And the other thing is too, Ithink.
I think this is, like I'vementioned in the last few years,
don't be afraid to hireassistants that know more than
(45:26):
you know about a certain area.
I'm afraid he's gonna come inhere and he's gonna know more
than I know and the kids aregonna think he needs to be the
head coach.
And ah, and there's all of thatstuff.
If you wanna have a really goodteam and you don't know anything
about zone defense, hiresomebody that knew, knows
something about zone defense andlet them teach that.
(45:47):
If you are a great defensivecoach, but you don't, your
offense is you're never reallygood and you're not comfortable
with that, hire an assistantcoach.
That's a good offensive guybecause that will, that makes
your program more well-roundedand makes it better.
Yeah.
And it's not an, it's not a signof weakness on your part, it's a
sign of understanding.
(46:08):
It's a really a sign of strengththat you are.
Comfortable enough in your ownskin that you can allow somebody
else to have some front time.
And, it's okay.
I think, there's things yougotta maneuver there, but I do
think that's, that would bepieces of advice that I would
give somebody starting.
I think it's great advice for a50-year-old CEO president,
(46:29):
manager, leader, administratortoo.
It's hire people that aresmarter than you.
Hire people that are better.
Absolutely.
Don't hire people that arelesser than you or you worry
that are gonna shine more thanyou.
So I, I love that advice.
You and I were both like this,but it would drive me crazy.
(46:50):
I'd watch five of your games.
We were gonna be the six teamyou were gonna play, and you'd
play fricking Man to Man for 40minutes and we'd show up and
you'd sit and you'd sit in a 1,2, 2 all night long.
And we hadn't seen it all year.
Drive me crazy.
Okay.
I was like, oh, we haven't seenhim play this once and he's
throwing this darn 1, 2, 2 atus, and it would take me a half
(47:14):
to figure out what I wanted todo and get the boys doing it the
way I want.
When it comes to X's and O's,what have you learned over the
years in terms of telling ayoung coach how to tackle that
strategy?
They're going to input what aresome of one or two of those
things?
You're like, this is how and whyyou put a certain thing in play.
(47:37):
I think you again, have to bewilling to change.
Yeah.
You have to be, I see so manycoaches and I've told people
before, there's different kindsof coaches in different facets,
but one of the things that Ihave seen a lot of is a coach
that does things one way, forwhatever reason that worked.
I.
So I'm gonna always do thatbecause that worked when we went
(47:59):
to the state tournament.
Yeah.
So that's what I'm doing.
Or another kind of coach that Ilike North Carolina, or I like,
let's say I like pick somebody Ilike.
We, I like Bob Huggins, I likeWest Virginia, so we're gonna
press just'cause Bob Hugginspresses and he's successful with
that.
Again, that's what I'm doingregardless.
(48:20):
I think you have to be willingto, Hey, this ain't working.
Let's try something else.
I think you need to have twothings.
And so therefore a long time weplayed mostly man, then we play
a little zone.
Then I got Chris O'Connellhelped me about my 10th or 11th
year in and he was a big SCOSyracuse two, three zone guy.
(48:41):
And I went almost exclusivelyfor about seven years.
Two, three zone all the time.
We just played man inemergencies and.
Then I went back to a man base.
But we play two three zone incertain situations when we feel
like and it's odd.
I play two three zone sometimeswhen we play a team that shoots
(49:03):
a lot of threes because it'seasier to spread out wide in a
Syracuse style, two, three zoneand cover shooters.
When you play man, somebody thatdoes shoots threes all the time,
they've got 30 sets designed toget somebody open against a man
to man for a three when you playzone.
Now they're just having to passit around and try and get the
shots that way.
Yeah.
And so there are times I'veplayed this year where we played
(49:26):
man for 40 minutes.
There's times we started out inman, and two minutes into the
game we're down eight, nothing.
And we went zone, and we playedzone for 38 minutes.
It's just you I think you haveto be willing to experiment and
say, Hey and I'll tell you this,Matt, as you get older, that's
harder to do.
I look back when I was coachingthat first team and we went
(49:49):
seven and 20 and that summer wewent to three team camps and we
went one and 30 in team campthat year.
I didn't think I was gonna win agame.
And we beat a team that wasranked in the state, that was in
our county, a county rival.
And we upset them.
And I said to one of their, oneof the guys I knew, I said,
dude, do it look like I've shown'em anything.
(50:10):
He said, how many games you wonthis year?
I said, three.
He goes, they don't need to makeyou coach of the year.
They need to make you coach ofthe century.
He goes, you shouldn't win agame with the team that you,
it's not the greatest complimentever.
And I was like, thanks Dave.
I needed that.
I like, appreciate that.
I think, and, but it's.
But it is, I would do thingsthen because things weren't
(50:33):
working.
I'd say, oh no, let's try this.
That's right.
And sometimes it worked.
That's right.
And as you get older and you'vecoached for 30 some odd years,
you go, nah, I ain't doing that.
That's crazy.
I and sometimes maybe youdismiss things that would work
if you were just brave enoughto, but if you do it and it
doesn't work, everybody in thegym thinks you're the biggest
(50:54):
idiot that ever lived.
And so you don't want to takethat risk.
And I said, I think is one ofthe things I find hard for me.
Don't be afraid to try things.
That's right.
Again, in the framework of, isthis you, is this what you do?
Is this how you do it?
But I don't be afraid to trythings or have a couple of
different things in mind.
(51:14):
Be able to press if you need toor be able to switch to a zone
if you need to.
Don't just do one thing becauseyou'll play some teams that man,
you're playing right into theirwheelhouse when you.
Do whatever it is that you liketo do.
You better be able to dosomething else then, yeah.
Yeah.
I remember it's just recently,as the last year and a half, two
years, I remember we wereplaying a team, just two dynamic
(51:36):
guards.
Just unbeliev.
They played so fast.
They were so good with the ball.
And we were two, three minutesin and I pulled the team out and
I called time out and I said,all right, we're putting in our
press.
And I could just see myassistant on the corner of his
eye, his heart drop, we're gonnapress these guys.
And kids back out and the coachgoes, coach, why are we pressing
(51:56):
this team?
Yeah.
And I go, have you, you'vewatched a lot of film on these
guys, right?
And I go, yeah.
He goes, yeah.
And I go, have you seen anybodypress them this year?
And he goes, no.
Let's see what happens.
And we go on an eight Oh run.
'cause they're not used to it.
They're not used to being presssometimes.
It's just that change.
Yes.
It's showing somethingdifferent.
It slows'em down.
(52:17):
It makes'em think, it makes'emfrustrated for a little bit.
Maybe you're not in it for morethan a minute or two.
But yeah, I love that approachand I love that about you.
And it was always the greatestchallenge.
I had to prepare for everythingfor you.
I, I didn't know what you weregonna do.
You had size, but your guardsmight kill us.
Your guards might score 60points that night.
Coach, this has been a lot offun.
(52:38):
I'm gonna call it quick timeout.
Okay.
And we'll come back and do 10,12 minutes of recruiting.
I want to get some hardrecruiting advice Okay.
For families.
But thanks for doing this.
It was a joy.
No problem.
I've enjoyed it too.
I, it's always an honor to getto hang out with you for a
little while.
What a great conversation withmy longtime friend, the head
(52:58):
men's basketball coach atWebster University in St.
Louis.
Coach Chris Bunch.
Chris, thank you for your time,your friendship, and your
wisdom.
I'm so grateful for your impacton the game.
The young men you lead, and thecoaching community we're both
proud to be a part of.
To all you listening, if today'sepisodes resonated with you, I'd
love to connect.
Please visit coach Mattrogers.com to explore all the
(53:21):
tools and resources I've createdto help coaches, student
athletes, and families navigaterecruiting, leadership and the
journey to college athletics formy book Significant Coaching and
The Softball Recruits Journal.
And don't forget aboutone-on-one consulting sessions
that you can do with me, whetheryou're a family, a coach, an
administrator, a collegepresident.
I've built these tools to helpyou lead with clarity and
(53:43):
confidence.
And if you're a part of a schoolclub or organization looking to
bring in a speaker for your nextevent, I'd be honored to join
you.
Whether it's about collegerecruiting, leadership
development, or building strongteams and strong kids with
lasting impact.
I tailor every message to meetyour audience where they are.
Thanks again for tuning in tosignificant coaching.
(54:04):
Be sure to subscribe and sharethis episode with a coach or
leader who would benefit fromit.
Until next time, lead withpurpose.
Recruit with intention and neverstop pursuing significance.
in our individual meetings atthe end of the year, I always
(00:02):
say this.
I say, Hey, we both got a job todo here.
My job is to recruit somebodybetter than you your job is to
work hard enough and get betterenough that I can't do that.
And if we both do our jobs,we're gonna have one heck of a
good time here.
(00:28):
Welcome back to another episodeof Significant Coaching.
I'm your host, Matt Rogers.
Today's episode is a specialone, and I mean that from the
Heart Coach Chris Bunch, and Istarted our college coaching
journeys nearly 25 years ago inthe St.
Louis Intercollegiate AthleticConference.
The Slack Coach Bunch was atWebster University where he is
been for the last 24 years, andI was at Maryville University of
(00:51):
St.
Louis.
Our teams had some epic battlesover the years, but what I
remember most is the mutualrespect we had for each other,
our programs, and the way weapproached the game.
This conversation, it'spersonal, it's joyful, and
honestly it's a little selfishit because you'll hear the pure
joy in my voice getting to talkcoaching and hoops with one of
(01:12):
my great friends in the world ofcollege sports.
If you could pick someone tohave in your corner, whether
it's a friend or a big brother,Chris Bunch, is that guy, kind,
loyal, generous, and on top ofthat, one of the best leaders of
young men and the sharpesttacticians of basketball.
I know I.
Chris also played a big role inmy book, significant Recruiting,
(01:34):
writing the coach's perspectivefor Chapter eight.
I'm so thankful for his wisdom,his generosity, and his belief
in helping young people navigatethis world the right way.
So settle in.
You're about to hear from a manwho not only knows how to win on
the court, but who's made alasting impact for hundreds of
young people off the court.
(01:55):
Let's get into it.
Here's my conversation withCoach Chris Budge.
Coach Bunch.
It's always great to see you.
I miss our conversations a tonand it's great following your
team.
I wanna talk about small collegebasketball with you.
Okay.
Where's it at?
Where's it at?
25 years ago we started in theSly Act together.
(02:19):
Where is Division threebasketball at today?
What's changed in 25 years?
I, ugh I think, oddly you askedme this last week, I was at the
Tennessee Basketball CoachesAssociation had a team camp in
Nashville, and I went and sawRaul Pius, who's, who was the
guy that replaced Randy Lambertat Maryville College where I was
(02:40):
at before I came here.
20, yeah.
Is this my, this year?
24 now?
Yeah, 24 years ago.
And he and I were talking and wewere just talking about that
very thing.
It has changed a lot.
Our league has changed a lot.
I don't sometimes think about itbecause I'm in it, and so I'm
just doing it.
And then, but like other peoplewill say, Mike Senior, who's.
(03:03):
Started helping me again thelast couple of years and was
helping me my first nine years.
When you, when I at Maryvillehere in St.
Louis he talks about our leagueand how different it is, how
much more athletic it is, howmuch more, he thinks it's
better.
And I don't necessarily thinkthe players, all these guys I
(03:24):
coached 20 years ago couldn'tplay and now my players are
better.
I don't know that's the case,but it's different.
The style of play is different.
Obviously Greenville being ourleague and running the system
has changed, people have had tocounter punch to try and have to
be able to play them, and and Ithink just the whole analytics.
(03:45):
Everybody's got access toanalytics.
Now.
I can pull up stuff on Synergyand see all this stuff more than
I don't use it.
Yeah, exactly.
Me, it has changed.
Now everybody's shooting, get tothe rim or shoot threes and cut
out the mid-range and all ofthat.
And so it's, it has changed.
I think even it's trickled, ithas trickled down to our level,
(04:07):
that aspect of it.
I do think maybe the biggestchange in the, I've seen in the
last 2, 3, 4 years is thedifference in who people are
recruiting.
For example, and I was talkingabout that with coach laces at
Maryville College last weekend.
He said.
(04:29):
I said, I don't, I used to knowwho to go after.
I'd go to a U tournament or ahigh school team camp and you'd
watch a game and this guy wouldbe scoring 27 and you'd be like,
yeah, I know I can't get thatguy.
What about this guy or this guy?
And you're trying to figure outwho, who was good enough to help
you, but it wasn't so good thatall the scholarship people would
be all over'em.
Now, I don't know if, I knowmany times who that is because
(04:54):
the division one and divisiontwo schools aren't recruiting
high school kids other than thecreme de la creme of high school
kids.
And so I'm seeing more kids thatI thought five, 10 years ago I
can't get that kid.
And now maybe I can get that kidbecause he don't, he doesn't
have as much stuff going on, andI think that has changed a
(05:14):
little bit too.
I think that, I think it's, Ithink it's tougher for high
school kids because they'resitting around waiting for that
scholarship offer to come and.
Yeah, they're not recruiting an18-year-old.
They're wanting a 22-year-old ora bounce back from a division
one, if they're division two ora division two.
If they're division three or NAIor whatever.
And then there's the JUCO aspectof it.
(05:35):
It's, I think it has narrowedwhat high school kids, their
avenues have narrowed a littlebit, that it's probably been
good for transfers as far as,because everybody's, everybody
wants a 21-year-old now.
They don't want a 17 or18-year-old.
It's, that part of it I thinkhas definitely changed.
(05:56):
It's the math that doesn't addup for me.
Okay.
So there, there's 2000 young menin the portal.
How is it that there's no roomfor high school kids?
I, and is it just.
Revolving chairs and you'resitting in this chair one day
and then you're in another chairand that guy's taking the kid
that was in your chair.
(06:16):
It just seems like there shouldbe more room for these high
school kids to find their way.
But every D two, every NAI,every D one coach tells me we're
not gonna recruit high schoolkids until we know we've gotten
out of the portal what we need.
And then it's just it's beenflipped upside down from where
it was 20 years ago.
We used, we, we used to recruitall of our high school kids two
(06:39):
years in advance, get ourcommitments, and then if we knew
we were gonna need a transfer,we'd start looking for a JUCO
kid, we'd start looking for thattransfer.
Isn't that wild?
It's very different.
And like I say, sometimes I gosit in like last weekend I'm
sitting watching six courts andI'm just like, at one point I
told, I went home and told mywife, I said she was how was it?
I said, at one point I was justbewildered because I'm looking
(07:02):
and I'm like.
I don't know, do I, could I getthat kid?
Could I not get that kid?
Do I want to contact 20 peoplehere?
Do I wanna contact a hundredpeople from here?
It's yeah.
I see it.
It's it was a little tougher forme this time because you think I
don't know, maybe I can get thatguy.
Or and I think the thing, it'sthat no one understands about
the portal.
And I'm sure you do because youdo all the recruiting stuff
(07:23):
nowadays.
But I read something the otherday where 30, 30% of people in
the portal get anotheropportunity somewhere 33 out of
10, 30%.
And I had two guys last yearthat were seniors and they
wanted to go play one more.
They had one more year to play.
(07:45):
Yeah.
And they didn't wanna do gradschool here because it was gonna
be too expensive.
So they were gonna go back towhere they were from.
And, they entered the portal andI think they were a little
disappointed.
That they didn't get more heatthan they got.
And it's I think that's thereality.
I think a lot of people thinkI'll just get somebody's unhappy
at school X.
(08:05):
I'll just go to the, enter theportal and everybody's just
gonna start calling me.
And they're not, and I think forthe majority of people, they're
sitting around and then in Juneand July they're starting to
call people just like they,people always did.
Oh, I don't have anybodyrecruiting me.
And it's I think that's the bigmisconception about the portal
is everybody enters the portaland finds a place.
(08:30):
There's a small chance thatyou'll find a, you might find a
place, then the question is, doyou find a place that is what
you are looking for?
Exactly.
And I say that percentageprobably is even smaller than
30%.
So it's, yeah, it's a crapshoot.
And I don't know that kidsplaying on rosters now.
(08:50):
Completely understand that.
I think you, and go back to whatwe started with.
I watch your teams play.
Now I watch you play againstGeorge at Greenville.
I watch you play againstSpalding.
I'll watch you, I'll watch youplay against Fon and I don't
ever remember us having thosetype of athletes and the size
that I'm seeing in the Slack.
Now that I, you, you might'vehad a, you might've had a
(09:12):
Connie, 1, 6, 7 kid that landedin your lap.
Absolutely.
I might've got a six, seven kidthat landed in my lap, but it
was really rare if we had threeguys bigger than six foot four
on the floor at one time.
Now I'm watching these games andI'm going, am I watching the
right teams?
This looks like a D two game.
This looks like a high level nAI game, or a, a Division one
(09:34):
JUCO game.
Are you, do you think the kidsand the families are figuring
that out and they're saying, weneed to go where we can be
appreciated and play I do.
I do think there's a little bitof, and I said this when I first
came to St.
Louis, and I still think that Ibattle this sometimes.
When I was at Maryville Collegein Tennessee, they were good and
(09:56):
they would go play division twoteams in that area and win or
play'em within a two, threepoint game, right?
They would play, they were likeone of the best programs, small
college programs in EastTennessee.
So when we would go to Knoxvilleand recruit kids, there wasn't
really a, oh that's divisionthree.
When I came here 24 years ago,that hit me like a pie in the
(10:20):
face.
I would go out and people wouldbe like.
I'd say, do you have any,talking to high school coach,
they'd say I've got a guy thatcan help you, and he would want
to give me their second guy offthe bench.
He can go play for you.
And maybe that guy played atWebster or Fon or Maryville in
the late eighties, earlynineties when they were just
getting started and it was like,oh yeah they're the perception
(10:41):
still, I think with a certainpercentage of people in St.
Louis is, oh, that's divisionthree.
Anybody can go there and play.
I, right?
I have coaches tell me no, my,my kid's way better than
division three and I want to go,come watch us play Illinois
Wesley or Wash U and I want youto tell me if you think that kid
is better than division three.
(11:03):
I'm not talking about us, butI'm talking about, Illinois
Wesley and Wash UI.
Come watch us play Wash U thenyou tell me if you think, your
kid is so much better thandivision three and.
And I've had a lot of coaches,I've had a lot of high school
coaches come with their kids andwatch us play Font Bon or
Spalding or Greenville andthey're like, man, I, you guys
are pretty good.
I didn't realize it was thatgood.
(11:25):
And I'm like, every level hasgot people that can play EE.
Every team has got a bunch ofhigh, some high school's best
player playing on their team.
And it's so it's I do think thathas changed a little bit, but I
still think that perceptionmight be out there some with
division three, but I do thinkthat is changing because it's
like I gotta go where I can.
(11:47):
I, the other question I get fromrecruits and I got up the tongue
for this year where do you seeme fitting in?
And that's a very tough questionfor me this year because as font
bond closed at the end of thisyear.
Yeah.
So we're gonna have a couple ofguys from font bond.
Come play for us.
I got a couple other guys comingfrom, we got some people coming
from different places and Iprobably have more transfers
(12:10):
than I've ever had.
It's just a, it's just afreakish year that's happened
that way.
But, I and Mike Senior told meyears ago, I'm too honest in my
recruiting.
I, he goes, man you tell peopletoo much sometimes.
But I have had to talk to thesekids about, look, this is gonna
be a compe.
I do, I think you can play inWebster University someday.
(12:31):
Yes.
Or I wouldn't be recruiting Youdo.
I think you could be a goodplayer here and have a great
career.
Yes.
Are you going to come in hereand play 20 minutes right away
next year?
You better be ready to competefor it because it's going to be
a very competitive situation.
And I'm not, I don't make anypromises to high school kids.
And sometimes I think that'swhat they want to hear is I'm
gonna go I wanna go somewherewhere I can play right away and
(12:54):
I almost sometimes want to go.
Where is that exactly?
Yeah.
Now certain kids can, but justthe average kid, I'm not, I'm
like I, that's, I almostsometimes wanna go, where do you
think that is?
Because all these places, you'regoing to have to earn playing
time no matter where you go.
And I always have a freshmanplaying for, but it may
(13:15):
sometimes not be the freshmanthat I thought was going play
for me.
I thought, that guy that'sright.
Gonna play for me now it's thisguy playing for me instead.
But it's, it's a verycompetitive it's gotten much
tougher, I think, for highschool students.
Would you prefer the questionwe're asked to you?
Do you see me having a chance tocompete for playing time next
(13:36):
year?
Yes.
Yes.
The, that's easier to answer,isn't it?
That's easier to answer.
And it's, and I try I try andbe, I.
I tried deliver that in a waythat's not, I probably al I see
that right then I deliver itwith the people sitting in the
room.
But it's, but it is, if I didn'tthink you could play, I wouldn't
(14:00):
have you sitting here in thisoffice right now.
You know what I mean?
It's, that's right.
I do think you can play, I dosee you playing here someday.
Will you play next year?
You might, but you're going toearn it if you do.
And it's gonna be competitive.
And, great quote from ourbaseball coach.
He says this to his kids all thetime.
I say to my guys, now, I neverused to say this, but I say it
(14:23):
straight to them.
I used to say this in adifferent way.
Now, this is the best way I knowto say it.
I, in, in our individualmeetings at the end of the year,
I always say this.
I say, Hey, we both got a job todo here.
My job is to recruit somebodybetter than you here.
Your job is to work hard enoughand get better enough and
develop through weight training,working on your game in the gym,
(14:45):
playing basket, playing five onfive in the off season.
It's your job to be good enoughthat I can't do that.
And if we both do our jobs,we're gonna have one heck of a
good time here.
And absolutely.
And it's, I think the, I thinksometimes the kid's perception
is, it's like high school, nextyear it's my turn.
(15:05):
And I'm like, not necessarily,it might be and it might not be,
and so I do think that thetoughest question for me to ask,
and I just sit and wait for it.
Every visit I have is the, wheredo you see me fitting me in next
year?
I wanna go to more Rock.
Or mom or dad will say he wantsto go somewhere where he can
play right away.
(15:26):
I have told kids that haveemailed me and kids that have,
I, I've talked to some kids onthe phone and I've just told
them, Hey look, I got 25 guysnext year and we've got a ton of
guards, and if you want to comehere, I maybe would be
interested, but you need tounderstand up front nothing is
promised here and there's gonnabe 15 other guards in this
(15:48):
program trying to keep you fromplaying.
Yeah.
And I can't promise youanything.
And a lot of kids have said,coach, I appreciate your
honesty.
It's I just, I wanna save yousome time because if you're
looking for some place, ifyou're, if you need to hear, and
I've probably lost a lot of guysin 25 years recruiting this.
If you need to hear me say Yes,come here next year and you'll
(16:09):
play.
I am just not going to say that.
Yeah.
Because that is something Icannot guarantee.
Yeah.
And it doesn't matter how goodyou are.
No.
It doesn't matter.
If you were Allstate and you'resix foot four and shot 38% for
the field.
We're pretty sure you're gonnacome in here and fail at some
point.
And you're probably gonna failin the first semester, if not
first and sec se secondsemester.
(16:29):
It's almost like we need to tella kid if you do come in and
you're playing 15 minutes game,either something went
dramatically wrong or we'rereally good this year'cause
we're already pretty, and ifyou're coming in, getting that
many minutes right, we'reprobably pretty good or Right.
We got a bunch of injuries andsomething went wrong.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yes.
And it's I had three guys thisyear played his sophomores three
(16:53):
of my top six were sophomoresthis year.
And they all played, they allstarted at different times.
One big, I had a big kid thatjust graduated, that was the all
time leading shot blocker inconference history.
He was the third all timeleading rebounder in conference
history.
He's the all time leading shotblocker in rebounder here at
Webster.
He scored a thousand points.
(17:14):
He was three years in a row, thedefensive player of the year in
the conference.
And the guy playing behind himwas a sophomore.
That was six.
Six or seven.
And when Carl got hurt for threegames in January, when the
conference, he going, Justinscored 20 points in every one of
those three games.
And then Carl came back and Ihad to go all right.
He went back to playing 15minutes off the pitch and it was
(17:37):
like, and it was so he averagednine or 10 points a game
essentially coming off thebench.
Although he did start some, Ihad another sophomore that
averaged 13 and a half points agame as a sophomore.
I had another guard that startedoff and on throughout the year,
but at three different gamesthis year, scored 20 points in a
game.
'cause he's a good perimetershooter and he just had some
games.
(17:57):
He got hot outside and made somethrees.
But he's a good player.
Those three guys.
And I tell everyone coming inthis, those three guys as
freshmen all dressed on thevarsity for me.
The big kid played some becausewe didn't have any other big
guys.
The other two hardly played atall, and yet they were two of my
(18:19):
top six this year and reallygood and will be even better in
the next couple of years, Ibelieve.
And so it's, there'sopportunities for you to play
early in your career.
It might not be the first gameof your freshman year, I was
like, it and E, everybody has togo through that.
(18:40):
Figuring out what college isabout, figuring out a new place,
figuring out your new teammates,figuring out your new coach, and
what are his hot buttons andwhat does he value?
And emphasize your coacheshaving time to watch you every
day in and out and see what yourwork ethic is and see what your
attitude is and see what your.
(19:02):
Ability to perceive and learnthe system that you're doing.
It takes time.
It's it, my dad told me one timeyears ago, I wanted it to all
happen for me right away when Iwas coaching in high school, and
I'm complaining about how itwasn't coming together.
And my dad, he had such acountry way of saying things and
he would say things and thetimes you'd think, what, what
(19:22):
are you talking about?
But then I would think about itand go, oh, he and he turn just
turned and looked at me andsaid, son, you can want a flower
to open up and bloom, but if youjust try and grab the pedals and
pull it open, you just gonnapull the pedals off of it and
just kill it.
Yeah.
And he said, he goes, it'llbloom when it's ready to bloom.
And I was like, what?
What do you do?
(19:42):
I don't wanna hear that crap.
Yeah.
But it's very, but that's verytrue.
It takes time for it to all cometogether.
And I think sometimes that'swhat Matt, when I played.
You were in seventh grade, youwatched the eighth graders play.
That's right.
You played when you were ineighth grade and then you went
to high school.
And when you were a freshman, ifyour program was good, you
(20:04):
watched the sophomores play onthe jv, and then when you were a
sophomore, you started on the JVand maybe you dressed varsity,
and then your junior year youwere on the varsity and if you
were good, you played.
Yep.
Then we went to college.
I went to a really good programin college and I, my first year
I played nine games out of 35.
Yep.
That's all I was, it was all endof the game.
We're up 30, get out there fortwo minutes and get a shot up.
(20:28):
It's and then my sophomore yearI started getting to play again
and I'm surprised sometimes nowbecause I think a lot of kids
just they, for whatever reasonthey got to play a u, you go
play a u in the summer,everybody gets to play.
Everybody gets to start at somepoint.
Everybody's playing.
Over half the game or more.
So they want to go, they justthink that every stop along the
(20:50):
way.
I'm I get to play.
And I do think sometimes that'stough because when I was growing
up and I went to high school, orI went to college my freshman
year and I didn't play, I waslike, yeah, these guys are good.
I don't, I'm the worst guy inhere.
I don't need to be, but I wascoming from a different mindset
at that time.
And so I think it's, I thinksometimes it's Can you shift
(21:14):
your thinking a little bit?
And I have talks with kids oncethey're here a lot about, yes.
I've told kids before, yes, youcan transfer.
You're gonna start this processall over again if you transfer.
Yeah.
A kid I, a kid that I like, akid that I really want, some
kids they come and tell youthey're gonna transfer you.
Okay.
But it's I've had other kidswhere I'm like, if you do this,
(21:34):
you're gonna start this wholeprocess over.
And you have one year list now.
To figure it out than you hadwhen you came here and started
this process.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I said it's, I've seen a lotof kids that would've done well
if they would've just hung in.
And I, Matt I've told a lot ofpeople this, I have not had a
(21:56):
lot of kids leave here and gosomewhere else and flourish.
Yeah.
This is it's different if you'redivision one maybe, but I said
I've not had a lot of kids comehere and not play and go
somewhere else and flourish.
Yeah.
Most of the time they.
That's the end.
I, I don't, we don't see, Idon't see it at any level.
Even these transfers, it's sorare.
(22:16):
We hear about those kids thatget drafted, that transferred
and got drafted.
Absolutely.
But there's another hundred thattransferred and were the six man
and got 12 minutes a game.
Or if that if, so I it's allfrustrating.
And it's a big part of why Icontinue to do this podcast.
I want families and kids to hearcollege coaches have this
(22:40):
conversation.
I want these families tounderstand this is how we talk
to each other.
This is how we think.
And we're smart about it.
We don't wanna lose, we like ourjob.
If we go seven and 18, a coupleyears in a row, they're looking
for another coach.
So if you think I'm not playingyou for political reasons or.
(23:03):
Emotional reasons, or, it'ssomething about our
relationship.
You're crazy.
If you're in my roster and youcan help me win, I'm finding a
spot for you.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
If you're not playing, it meansthere's somebody else that's
making us better than you.
Absolutely.
Or at least at the very least,Matt, the coach, we're all
(23:25):
human.
I've looked at guys and beenlike, man I, I realize later I
should have played this guy overhere more.
Yeah.
We're all, we make mistakes too,but I think it's a mistake.
I tell my guys this sometimesthat, we finally have the
discussion where I'm in theoffice and they came in two
times to talk to me aboutplaying time, and we've talked
about what they can do andfinally I get to the point
(23:47):
where, look, I just don't thinkyou give us the best chance to
win.
That's right.
And you have to make me see.
That you give us the best chanceto win every day in practice in
a junior varsity or reservegame, you need to show me, I
(24:07):
said, a lot of guys don't wannaplay a reserve game or JV game
and you go to a JV game andscore 25.
I go, maybe I need think this.
Yeah.
If you're playing a JD game andscore two points in 25 minutes,
all you did was reaffirm, thatyou're probably not impact,
you're not gonna impact the gameenough.
And so it's I will finally justget to the point where I say,
(24:29):
this is where I'm at, and I knowthis stinks for you.
And this is hard for you and Iunderstand that.
And, but I have to make the bestdecision I can and maybe I'm
making the wrong one, but I haveto go with what I think is.
What I think is the bestdecision.
Yeah.
And it's not personal.
And you're going to have toeither be okay with that and
(24:51):
continue to work, or I'll helpyou find somewhere else.
Yeah, no, I, if you wanna gosomewhere else, I'll help you
find somewhere else if I can.
It's it's not per 95% of thetime, it's not personal.
The coach didn't like me, no.
And in those cases where thecoach didn't like you, you
probably weren't behaving in avery likable manner.
(25:12):
That's right.
And I finally will just get tothat point to where I may be
making a mistake, I will admitthat.
But this is where I'm at.
And you're gonna have to be, andI tell our guys this all the
time, and I'll say it 50 timesagain next year, I'll say, play
as a player, you have theopportunity to.
(25:33):
To be egocentric.
And I don't mean egotistical,egocentric.
You're looking around and going,how is all this affecting me?
Am I happy?
Am I getting what I want out ofthis?
And I'll say, you have tounderstand as the any coach, but
especially the head coach, Inever get to think like that.
(25:55):
Yes, do.
I have a guy and gosh, he's thebest guy we've got, I'm just
speaking hypothetically here.
You have a kid and he's greatattitude, works hard.
He's got the, he stands on thebench and stands up and claps
every time somebody doessomething he is, he's the
leader.
He's the, you love him.
You'd want your, if you had adaughter, you'd want him to
marry her, but he doesn't giveyou the best chance to win.
(26:17):
I can't go, man.
I really love this guy.
I'm going to play him instead,if I'm trying to do, if I'm
being honest to myself and theteam and trying to do what's
best for everyone.
I have to not play that guy.
Yeah.
And it's a heartbreaker, it's aheart wrencher for the coach as
well as the player.
And I said they, they need tounderstand that a coach never,
(26:40):
if he's doing it the right way,he never gets to look at it from
that perspective.
I'm gonna do what I would liketo do.
That's not necessarily, I haveto do what I think is the best
for the collective.
And a lot of times, what's bestfor the collective really stinks
for this one guy.
And I can't help that.
(27:01):
I'm human.
This is an imperfect world.
I can't make it work foreverybody.
25 guys.
I can't make it work foreverybody.
I have to do the very best Ican.
I'm gonna treat, I telleverybody I'm gonna treat you as
good as I can, as well as I can.
I'm gonna give everybody thesame opportunity.
I'm not gonna let some guys eatand not let other guys eat.
I'm not gonna give some guys.
(27:23):
Travel suits and backpacks andnot give everybody a travel suit
and a backpack.
I, if you come in with a problemin class or you have a problem
with your financial aid, I'mgonna sit down with you and I'm
gonna call whoever I need tocall to try and make that better
for you.
If you get sick at night, I,whether you play for me or not,
I'm gonna come pick you up andtake you to the emergency room
and sit there with y'all.
(27:43):
All of those things, I'm gonnado all of that stuff for
everybody I've got.
But when it comes to the playingtime, that's the one area that I
can't spread it out to all 20,25 guys.
It, you know it.
At that point, I have to makesome tough choices, but that is
the reason I would want my sonto play for you.
(28:04):
That is the reason that if I'm aparent or I'm talking to a
parent, it's why I would say, gotalk to Chris Bunch because
you're gonna get the truth.
You're gonna get it direct.
He's gonna take care of you,he's gonna care about you.
He's gonna put you beforehimself That.
Is the definition of a coach.
I hope it's, and I know Mikewould tease you about being too
(28:27):
honest with recruitment but atthe end of the day, you don't, I
never did.
I don't want to deal with aproblem I'm looking at in a year
when I already know it's aproblem.
I'd rather they know the truth.
So they go I don't know if Iwanna play for him.
He's really hard, he's reallytough on his guys.
Even the guys say he's hard toplay for sometimes.
(28:48):
He's gonna get on you.
He's gonna love you, but he'sgonna kick you in the butt,
whatever that may be.
I'd rather they know thatupfront.
'cause I don't want you here, Idon't wanna have to recruit your
position again a year.
'cause we find out 12 monthsfrom now, we're not a good fit
for each other.
I tell guys all the time, I'llsay, Hey, look, if I lie to you
and say, oh, come here, you'llplay.
Yeah.
I tell everybody that.
Yeah.
Then when everybody gets here,somebody's not playing.
(29:09):
And I said, if I lied to you,then you're gonna be unhappy.
You're gonna sit around andyou're gonna complain to the
other guys in the team.
And at some point, some of themare gonna start getting unhappy.
Yeah.
And then you're gonna call homeand you're gonna complain to mom
and dad and they're gonna beunhappy.
And as it progresses, at somepoint I get to be unhappy
(29:30):
because I lied to you aboutwhere I see you from.
And I said, that's right.
And at 58 years old, I'm too oldfor that.
I, it's hopefully I've got 10more years or 15 more years of
coaching.
I may not have one more year ofcoaching.
I don't know.
But I said I, at this age in mylife and at this stage of my
career, it's, I'm too old forthat.
It's you need to know upfront.
This is where I am.
(29:50):
And if you wanna be here, thengreat.
I would love to have you here.
If not, I understand.
And, whatever.
Yeah.
I think we were too old for itwhen we were in our twenties and
thirties.
That's retrospect.
Yeah.
Okay.
When you look back 24 years, howhave you changed in how you,
(30:14):
I'll throw some opportunity,some actions at you, how you run
a practice.
How's that changed in 24 years?
Has it, yes, I'm sure it has.
It's changed radically in thelast year.
I, like I say, a couple yearsago, Mike was coaching soccer.
He got outta soccer, didn'twanna be the head coach anymore,
didn't wanna have all the headcoach responsibilities and all
(30:35):
that.
His boys are starting to play.
Yeah.
Every sport known to mankind,and it's like he's trying to get
to all their games.
He's not.
And then he came to me and said,Hey, I see you having a, one of
your assistants left.
Can I come back and help you?
And I laughed.
I said, dude, you just retired.
What do you mean you retired amonth ago, now you're wanting to
get back in.
He goes, no, I retired frombeing the head coach.
And so Mike was able to comeback and I've had him the last
(30:58):
couple years.
I had another coach in the area,George Little, that has coached
a lot of different Yeah, Iremember George.
Yeah, George was around when Iwas there.
He's helped me the last twoyears.
Last year.
You remember Cody?
Brad Fish that played for me.
Yeah.
Cody was a high school coach,got.
Different.
He had a couple of kids got in adifferent place in his life and
(31:19):
I had the opportunity last yearto hire him.
And I hired another guy, GregWilliams, who was a successful
high school boys and girls coachfor 30 years and had just
retired from coaching and camehere and worked a couple of
camps for me.
And I was like, if you everwanna get in the, try the
college game again one time I'dlove to have you.
I've got all of those guys.
That's amazing.
And so I have I laugh I say allthe time to people I'm have,
(31:42):
maybe you have as good a staffas any division three coach in
America.
And because they're all older,they've all been head coaches.
They all get it, and next year Ithink we're, it's we've got it
set up.
Lance Thornhill ISS gonna comeover here and he'll wow.
Next year.
That's a division one staff.
You got, and so you've got fourfed coaches.
(32:05):
Exactly.
And not just guys that were headcoaches, but guys that have all
been successful head coaches.
Yes.
And so they all, we have a lot.
In the last year, we've probablyhad more discussions than I've
ever, not that I didn't havediscussions with my other
assistants.
I've had good assistants.
I've been blessed ever sinceI've been here.
But probably more discussionsabout if you were me, what would
(32:26):
you do right here?
A bunch or, I do this, and it'sthat part of it.
I have changed a lot in the lastyear, but probably over time I
did it anyway.
Just when you're young.
And when I was young and firststarted out in coaching high
school, I was blessed slashcursed with coaching at a school
(32:48):
that the girls head coach won90% of the games in his career.
He won four or five statetitles.
They were runner up four or fivetimes, whatever.
What my first year as a highschool head coach, I went seven
and 20.
He had the number two rankedteam in the country by USA today
(33:09):
in girls.
All five of his starting lineupgot a D one scholarship offer
that year.
Wow.
And so it was like, here I amcoaching and I got this guy and
it's like everything I do seemswrong.
And everybody's going y'all do.
Larry Neal does.
It was really tough.
And yet it was really goodbecause Larry was the first guy
(33:31):
to ever be like, let me tell yousomething.
He goes, you, this is, it is notwhat you are doing right now.
He goes, but at, he'd say it, itis the players that you have
until you get better players.
You just have to do as well asyou can.
And he goes, if you should winfive games and you win seven.
(33:53):
You had a great year.
Yeah.
And he'd say, Chris, I can't dothat.
I if I should win 30.
And I, and I win 29, they wantto, they wanna fire me around
here.
He just laughed and he said,it's hard for me to keep
exceeding my own expectation.
He goes, but for you startingoff, that's, you have to think
in lines like that.
And as a young coach, I thinkthat's the hardest thing.
(34:15):
You want everybody to see.
You're in charge.
You want everybody to think youknow what you're doing.
You got every, you got theanswer to everything, and it's
and then you get older and youdo it a while and you realize,
dude I'm an idiot.
I don't know how I don't knowthat, I don't know the answer to
this.
And as you get older, andespecially in this past year, I.
I have been I used to laugh.
(34:35):
I'd come home from practice andChris would say, how'd it go
today?
And I'd say, I went great.
And she goes, I think you'rehaving more fun than you've ever
had.
And I said, I am having more funthan I ever had.
And some days I probably do theuntrained eye.
I just look like Nick Saban.
I'm just walking around andthey're all doing different
skill stations and they'redoing, half court defensive work
(34:56):
on this end offensive, Cody'sgot offensive work on this end.
They're doing stuff.
And I just jump in the drill andbark a little bit and then step
back out and walk around again.
And I see people like that guyain't doing anything.
Yes, I'm sitting down with themand we're talking about the
planning aspect of it.
But I think for a young coach,one of the things you have to
learn is that you have to hiregood assistants and you have to
(35:19):
let them do their thing.
Yeah.
I was fortunate to, every coachI ever worked with did that.
When I went to Maryville, I.
I remember Randy saying, okay,you got the post, go there and
do this re you know, do someoffensive rebounding.
And I was like what drill do youwant me to do?
And he was like hey bunch,you've been a, Hey, you've been
a coach for 11 years.
You ever done a reboundingdrilling practice before?
(35:41):
I was like, yeah, good.
Go do a couple.
If it's wrong, I'll tell you.
And oh God, I said that to Mike.
I said to every assist I had,like Cody came in, he is I wanna
do more shooting in practice.
What kind of drills?
I went, you are the one thatsays you did shooting drills in
practice every day.
He goes I said, do those.
If I don't like'em, I'll tellyou.
And he was like, oh, okay.
And it's I think that, myexpectation is, and Lance, when
(36:03):
we sat down and talked, I waslike, dude, I'm not gonna try
and you beat me like eight outtathe last 11 times.
I'm not gonna try and tell you,oh yeah, I know.
Be quiet.
I know more than it's like thereare things that you do.
You are better at than the, thanI am at those things.
Yep.
I'm gonna let you do thosethings.
Yeah.
And you be the front man and yoube out there in practice
teaching the guys this, whateverit is.
(36:25):
And you're gonna get to do that.
Yeah.
Because instead of you tell meand then let me teach it so all
the guys know that I'm the onein charge.
I said, I think you have to getaway from that.
Yeah.
If you want your staff to enjoyit.
If you want everybody to, if youwant it to be a good situation,
employ I'll tell'em every nowand then, I'll say, all right
(36:47):
guys I'll have some of thepractice plan done and I'll say,
okay, here we are, employeeempowerment segment right here,
Greg, you got these guys downhere for two rounds of 10
minutes.
Cody, you got these two guys.
Do something offense.
Do something defense.
I don't care.
You both coached for 30 years or15 years, whatever.
(37:07):
Do something.
Yeah.
You do what you like to do and Ithink that has worked.
For us a lot better.
Good.
Now granted, I've had all, I'vegot all experienced assistance
that you can do that.
Yeah.
A young guy, I realize you gottahere's a, here's some good drill
to do, or whatever, but it'sI've got older guys and it is
(37:28):
just, it is sometimes, Hey,stupid, get out of the way and
let you know.
There's been times we've calleda timeout and Cody wanted to run
something and I just said, Cody,you tell him.
And it's oh, coach Bunch isn'teven talking to the players in
the timeout.
It's dude, it does, everythingdoesn't have to come through me.
Yeah.
And I think once you getcomfortable with that it makes
(37:50):
everything better.
I think there's more buy-in fromyour assistance.
I think the players respect yourassistance more because, Hey,
this guy's coaching me too.
And I think it helps all the wayaround.
I agree.
Yeah.
But that has changed.
That has changed.
That's probably the main changeI've made over the.
Is I do a lot more of that thanI used to.
(38:10):
I coached high school basketballtwo years ago and I couldn't
find an assistant coach untilNovember 1st.
Couldn't find one.
And then everybody I hired werethe guys that played so little
high school basketball, neversaw college, they were just good
guys.
I spent the whole year coachingthem.
(38:30):
Yes.
Which made it a real challengewhen you have a varsity, a
junior varsity, and a freshmanteam in two different gyms and
Right.
You're trying to help practiceplan and Right.
Teach them what a two, threezone is and how to move in a
two, three zone.
So when you've got coaches, whenI had a Gene Meyers and you've
had a mic and you've got a Llance coming in, it's so much
(38:52):
easier on your soul Yes.
To enjoy the coaching side ofit.
Yes.
But you can say.
I don't have to be thedisciplinarian, I don't have to
be the director every for 120minutes every single day.
Yes.
Yes.
And or I'm gonna go down hereand watch the offensive stuff
that Cody's doing because wedidn't do this very well last
night, so I wanna watch this.
(39:14):
Exactly.
And I don't have to be lookingover my shoulder to make sure
that there's, they're not downthere kicking basketballs off
the wall and goofing around.
There, there's good stuffhappening on that end, and I
don't have to be involved inthat.
Yeah.
They're getting what they needto get, and that's it's I told
somebody at the end of thisyear, I said it wasn't my most
successful year.
Wins and losses and finish andall of that, but it was probably
(39:37):
my favorite year of coachingjust in my mental health.
My happiness and enjoyment.
I.
After games.
And that makes me so happy foryou.
And it I, it was a great year.
I'm hope hoping this year willbe even better, but, it sounds
like you're, it sounds likeyou're, your freshmen.
The software's coming back arejust loaded, you got, so I'm
(39:59):
excited.
I'm so excited for you and forthem.
And, I, knowing you the way Ido, I would imagine last year
was probably the most you'vebeen able to have somebody else
run a drill and you can grab akid, pull'em out, have a two
minute conversation.
Yep.
Do some teaching on the side.
Yeah.
Probably more than you've everbeen able to do.
Yeah, absolutely.
(40:20):
Here was the classic thing,Cody, his wife is a nurse, and
so sometimes she's gotta work.
And so they didn't have schoolone day, and so he had both of
his kids, a 2-year-old and a1-year-old.
And which is not a problem foryou.
I know that.
I'm already well versed withsenior's, three kids.
I've raised his kids, so it's soanyway, Cody would be there and
(40:41):
Selena is crawling around on thefloor there in mid court.
And so it comes time for Cody toget in and do his five on five
segment offensive segment.
And so he's holding her and Isaid, here, gimme that baby.
And so I'm like and they knowme.
His kids know me.
Yes.
I'm walking around with Selenatalking to her, and they were
and somebody came in and went.
(41:02):
That I what is going on?
I God.
But if they know you, that's hogheaven for you going on around
here, that is hog heaven foryou, and I was just like, I'm
just holding Selena and we'retalking and I'm watching, it's
and Cody's Hey, I apologize forthat.
I said, dude, you don't have toapologize for that.
I said, it's part of it, and sothat part of it has been very
good.
That's great.
(41:23):
Having a bunch of guys aroundthat I enjoy, not that I didn't
enjoy my other assistants, I'veenjoyed all my assistants, but
it's there's just more of themthere.
I think we get more stuff donein practice.
Absolutely not because they'rebetter than the assistants I had
prior.
I just have more of them now tobreak things down and
everything.
Oh, it's so much fun, coach man.
You have to be willing to let goof some, let go of some stuff if
(41:49):
you wanna move forward, now Igotta convince Karen to move
back to St.
Louis so I could be youradministrative assistant.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I wanna be the ball boy of thatbadge.
So somebody said, is Lancecoming over here?
He said, good god, bunch.
You're gonna have two rows.
You're gonna be like the NBA,you're gonna have four coaches
sitting in that second rowbehind you.
I said, no, it it is, there's alot there.
(42:09):
There's a, sometimes it's a lotof moving parts.
Now they're not in everypractice because Mike's got his
job that he's doing.
Yeah.
Everybody teaches except theretired coach.
So there's times if we gottapractice at two, it's just me
and Greg, because Mike's at workand the other three guys are
teaching, so it's sometimes it'sjust me and Greg and then, and
it's hey, I've done that.
I've done, I've in high schooland sometimes here at Webster,
(42:32):
I've been one coach and had 25dudes in the gym, and I know how
to do that too.
I can, we do.
I had to, you, you do what yougotta do, but it's it, that part
of it.
I've changed kind of thepractice schedule.
We go late more just so I canhave all my guys there because
it's better situation, all that.
But it's been very good.
It's been very good.
Coach, this has been awesome.
(42:52):
I can talk to you for hours andI miss you so much and
Absolutely.
It's always a joy for me.
Let's do some let's do somecoaching to younger coaches.
Okay.
Real, real quick.
Okay.
Piece of advice that you'velearned over the years or
somebody gave you that you thinkevery young coach should really
embrace?
Couple things.
Be yourself.
(43:12):
I'm a, I think you'll know this.
You did this too.
I'm sure we all do.
Every good coach is a thief.
If I see something I like, I go,oh, I'm going to do that.
That's right.
Before I do that, I gotta makesure I've got the people in
place that can do that.
Before I try and do it, or I'llsee some coach and his coach and
then here again, getting back tomy, the, when coaching in high
(43:34):
school, the girls coach was themost intense human being I ever
met in my life to this day.
And I tried to, and everybodyjust thought that was the way
you won.
You were just a disciplinarianand you were hard on the kids
and just chewing the ears offthe side of somebody's head
(43:54):
every time they were, Larry wasintense all the time.
Never changed.
And I would try and do that, andI would make that about two
days, and I was just exhausted.
I would go home and just be likeI can't do this.
I, how does he do this?
I can't.
And I had to learn over time.
You gotta do, you gotta beyourself, you gotta, and I used
to tell Mike that when he firststarted coaching, I said, Mike,
(44:17):
don't try and be me.
Don't yell because I yell or.
Be not laugh because I laugh orwhatever.
I said, you gotta respond tosituations the way you would
respond to situations.
And I said, you have to be.
I said, yeah, I think you haveto be real with yourself because
kids, people in general, but Ithink sometimes, especially
(44:40):
kids, they see a fake coming amile away.
If you're trying to be somethingthat you're not, man, they pick
up on that quick.
I said, you have to be yourself.
Yeah.
And I think that's one of,that's one thing that young
coaches, they want to be like,oh, I wanna be like Brad
Stevens, or I wanna be likeCoach K, or I wanna be like,
(45:00):
Rick Barnes or whoever.
It's be yourself.
Be who you are because you'll bemuch happier with your, and
you're much more comfortablewith yourself than you are with
anybody else.
So it's you need to try and beyourself.
And the other thing is too, Ithink.
I think this is, like I'vementioned in the last few years,
don't be afraid to hireassistants that know more than
(45:26):
you know about a certain area.
I'm afraid he's gonna come inhere and he's gonna know more
than I know and the kids aregonna think he needs to be the
head coach.
And ah, and there's all of thatstuff.
If you wanna have a really goodteam and you don't know anything
about zone defense, hiresomebody that knew, knows
something about zone defense andlet them teach that.
(45:47):
If you are a great defensivecoach, but you don't, your
offense is you're never reallygood and you're not comfortable
with that, hire an assistantcoach.
That's a good offensive guybecause that will, that makes
your program more well-roundedand makes it better.
Yeah.
And it's not an, it's not a signof weakness on your part, it's a
sign of understanding.
(46:08):
It's a really a sign of strengththat you are.
Comfortable enough in your ownskin that you can allow somebody
else to have some front time.
And, it's okay.
I think, there's things yougotta maneuver there, but I do
think that's, that would bepieces of advice that I would
give somebody starting.
I think it's great advice for a50-year-old CEO president,
(46:29):
manager, leader, administratortoo.
It's hire people that aresmarter than you.
Hire people that are better.
Absolutely.
Don't hire people that arelesser than you or you worry
that are gonna shine more thanyou.
So I, I love that advice.
You and I were both like this,but it would drive me crazy.
(46:50):
I'd watch five of your games.
We were gonna be the six teamyou were gonna play, and you'd
play fricking Man to Man for 40minutes and we'd show up and
you'd sit and you'd sit in a 1,2, 2 all night long.
And we hadn't seen it all year.
Drive me crazy.
Okay.
I was like, oh, we haven't seenhim play this once and he's
throwing this darn 1, 2, 2 atus, and it would take me a half
(47:14):
to figure out what I wanted todo and get the boys doing it the
way I want.
When it comes to X's and O's,what have you learned over the
years in terms of telling ayoung coach how to tackle that
strategy?
They're going to input what aresome of one or two of those
things?
You're like, this is how and whyyou put a certain thing in play.
(47:37):
I think you again, have to bewilling to change.
Yeah.
You have to be, I see so manycoaches and I've told people
before, there's different kindsof coaches in different facets,
but one of the things that Ihave seen a lot of is a coach
that does things one way, forwhatever reason that worked.
I.
So I'm gonna always do thatbecause that worked when we went
(47:59):
to the state tournament.
Yeah.
So that's what I'm doing.
Or another kind of coach that Ilike North Carolina, or I like,
let's say I like pick somebody Ilike.
We, I like Bob Huggins, I likeWest Virginia, so we're gonna
press just'cause Bob Hugginspresses and he's successful with
that.
Again, that's what I'm doingregardless.
(48:20):
I think you have to be willingto, Hey, this ain't working.
Let's try something else.
I think you need to have twothings.
And so therefore a long time weplayed mostly man, then we play
a little zone.
Then I got Chris O'Connellhelped me about my 10th or 11th
year in and he was a big SCOSyracuse two, three zone guy.
(48:41):
And I went almost exclusivelyfor about seven years.
Two, three zone all the time.
We just played man inemergencies and.
Then I went back to a man base.
But we play two three zone incertain situations when we feel
like and it's odd.
I play two three zone sometimeswhen we play a team that shoots
(49:03):
a lot of threes because it'seasier to spread out wide in a
Syracuse style, two, three zoneand cover shooters.
When you play man, somebody thatdoes shoots threes all the time,
they've got 30 sets designed toget somebody open against a man
to man for a three when you playzone.
Now they're just having to passit around and try and get the
shots that way.
Yeah.
And so there are times I'veplayed this year where we played
(49:26):
man for 40 minutes.
There's times we started out inman, and two minutes into the
game we're down eight, nothing.
And we went zone, and we playedzone for 38 minutes.
It's just you I think you haveto be willing to experiment and
say, Hey and I'll tell you this,Matt, as you get older, that's
harder to do.
I look back when I was coachingthat first team and we went
(49:49):
seven and 20 and that summer wewent to three team camps and we
went one and 30 in team campthat year.
I didn't think I was gonna win agame.
And we beat a team that wasranked in the state, that was in
our county, a county rival.
And we upset them.
And I said to one of their, oneof the guys I knew, I said,
dude, do it look like I've shown'em anything.
(50:10):
He said, how many games you wonthis year?
I said, three.
He goes, they don't need to makeyou coach of the year.
They need to make you coach ofthe century.
He goes, you shouldn't win agame with the team that you,
it's not the greatest complimentever.
And I was like, thanks Dave.
I needed that.
I like, appreciate that.
I think, and, but it's.
But it is, I would do thingsthen because things weren't
(50:33):
working.
I'd say, oh no, let's try this.
That's right.
And sometimes it worked.
That's right.
And as you get older and you'vecoached for 30 some odd years,
you go, nah, I ain't doing that.
That's crazy.
I and sometimes maybe youdismiss things that would work
if you were just brave enoughto, but if you do it and it
doesn't work, everybody in thegym thinks you're the biggest
(50:54):
idiot that ever lived.
And so you don't want to takethat risk.
And I said, I think is one ofthe things I find hard for me.
Don't be afraid to try things.
That's right.
Again, in the framework of, isthis you, is this what you do?
Is this how you do it?
But I don't be afraid to trythings or have a couple of
different things in mind.
(51:14):
Be able to press if you need toor be able to switch to a zone
if you need to.
Don't just do one thing becauseyou'll play some teams that man,
you're playing right into theirwheelhouse when you.
Do whatever it is that you liketo do.
You better be able to dosomething else then, yeah.
Yeah.
I remember it's just recently,as the last year and a half, two
years, I remember we wereplaying a team, just two dynamic
(51:36):
guards.
Just unbeliev.
They played so fast.
They were so good with the ball.
And we were two, three minutesin and I pulled the team out and
I called time out and I said,all right, we're putting in our
press.
And I could just see myassistant on the corner of his
eye, his heart drop, we're gonnapress these guys.
And kids back out and the coachgoes, coach, why are we pressing
(51:56):
this team?
Yeah.
And I go, have you, you'vewatched a lot of film on these
guys, right?
And I go, yeah.
He goes, yeah.
And I go, have you seen anybodypress them this year?
And he goes, no.
Let's see what happens.
And we go on an eight Oh run.
'cause they're not used to it.
They're not used to being presssometimes.
It's just that change.
Yes.
It's showing somethingdifferent.
It slows'em down.
(52:17):
It makes'em think, it makes'emfrustrated for a little bit.
Maybe you're not in it for morethan a minute or two.
But yeah, I love that approachand I love that about you.
And it was always the greatestchallenge.
I had to prepare for everythingfor you.
I, I didn't know what you weregonna do.
You had size, but your guardsmight kill us.
Your guards might score 60points that night.
Coach, this has been a lot offun.
(52:38):
I'm gonna call it quick timeout.
Okay.
And we'll come back and do 10,12 minutes of recruiting.
I want to get some hardrecruiting advice Okay.
For families.
But thanks for doing this.
It was a joy.
No problem.
I've enjoyed it too.
I, it's always an honor to getto hang out with you for a
little while.
What a great conversation withmy longtime friend, the head
(52:58):
men's basketball coach atWebster University in St.
Louis.
Coach Chris Bunch.
Chris, thank you for your time,your friendship, and your
wisdom.
I'm so grateful for your impacton the game.
The young men you lead, and thecoaching community we're both
proud to be a part of.
To all you listening, if today'sepisodes resonated with you, I'd
love to connect.
Please visit coach Mattrogers.com to explore all the
(53:21):
tools and resources I've createdto help coaches, student
athletes, and families navigaterecruiting, leadership and the
journey to college athletics formy book Significant Coaching and
The Softball Recruits Journal.
And don't forget aboutone-on-one consulting sessions
that you can do with me, whetheryou're a family, a coach, an
administrator, a collegepresident.
I've built these tools to helpyou lead with clarity and
(53:43):
confidence.
And if you're a part of a schoolclub or organization looking to
bring in a speaker for your nextevent, I'd be honored to join
you.
Whether it's about collegerecruiting, leadership
development, or building strongteams and strong kids with
lasting impact.
I tailor every message to meetyour audience where they are.
Thanks again for tuning in tosignificant coaching.
(54:04):
Be sure to subscribe and sharethis episode with a coach or
leader who would benefit fromit.
Until next time, lead withpurpose.
Recruit with intention and neverstop pursuing significance.
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