August 22, 2025 • 55 mins
Unveiling Hollywood's Power Dynamics with Robert Darwell: From Law to Filmmaking
Join host Dian Griesel as she interviews Robert Darwell, a powerhouse in the Hollywood legal and production scene. Robert, the head of Global Media at Sheppard Mullin, shares insights from his illustrious career, spanning from groundbreaking legal deals to producing acclaimed documentaries. Discover the stories behind films like 'The Nineties Club' and 'Black Uniform,' and get a sneak peek into his latest project, 'Crowning Achievement.' Learn about the evolving dynamics of Hollywood, the impact of AI on the industry, and get valuable advice for aspiring professionals. Filmed at the iconic Manhattan Center, this episode is a deep dive into the world of entertainment law and film production.
SHOW RUN:
00:00 Introduction to the Power Players in Hollywood
00:08 Meet Robert Darwell: Hollywood's Power Lawyer
01:07 The Nineties Club: A Tribute to the Elderly
03:13 Black Uniform: Honoring Black Veterans
06:01 Crowning Achievement: The Miss America Project
09:38 Navigating the Film Festival Circuit
12:40 The Evolution of Entertainment Law
16:33 The Changing Landscape of Hollywood
18:54 The Power Dynamics in Hollywood
24:18 The Future of Iconic Characters and Franchises
27:49 The Shift to Streaming and Series
29:36 Challenges in Film Distribution
30:36 Independent Film Distribution Strategies
33:30 Content Boom and Market Adjustments
36:21 Crowdfunding and Niche Investments
37:51 AI's Impact on the Entertainment Industry
42:49 The Value of Personal Connections in Law
45:30 Building a Diverse and Skilled Legal Team
53:50 Final Thoughts and Advice for Lawyers
Please SUBSCRIBE! I’m Dian Griesel, Ph.D. aka @SilverDisobedience to my hundreds of thousands of monthly blog readers. You can learn more about me here: https://diangriesel.com
But for starters…I am a perception analyst, counselor, hypnotherapist, author of 16 books and a Wilhelmina model. For 30 years I have helped my clients to achieve greater understanding as to how perceptions impact everything we do whether personally or professionally.
This episode was recorded in collaboration with The Manhattan Center, New York City, New York. https://www.themanhattancenter.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi. Have you ever wondered who holds
the power in Hollywood? I have.
Well, today I have a really interesting guest.
He's producer and an attorney. In fact, he's the head of global
media at Shepherd Mullen. His name's Robert Darwell.
(00:21):
Now, let me tell you a little bit about him.
I'm going to look at my notes because I want to make sure I
get this right. OK?
Hollywood Reporter named him thePower lawyer.
Variety called him Dealmaker, Super Lawyer and Billboard
listened as a top music lawyer. So the guy's got clout, knows
all sides of the business, and I've got a lot of questions for
(00:44):
him. So welcome, Robert.
Thank you. Thank you for having me on,
Diane. You know, and one thing I forgot
to say in your intro, which I think is incredibly important
and I think we should start there, you are producing.
So you not only do all these mega legal deals, you have
produced 2 amazing films and rumor has it there might be a
(01:05):
third one on the way. That's right.
Your first one, the 90s club, What inspired that?
The 90s Club what that that documentary features 12 people
between the ages of 90 and 99 years old.
And I started it because I'm always felt great respect for
(01:26):
the well aged and wanted to share that with an audience.
I think it I filmed it a couple years ago.
There had already been much needed social justice for many
groups, but I still felt that kind of senior seniors weren't
getting that level of respect. And there's seems to be a built
(01:49):
in prejudice once you hear the, you know, somebody's age and you
start to think that they have some sort of diminished capacity
and, you know, whether it's mentally or physically.
And that's not always the case. And even just when somebody's
quite older, there's a lot of richness there, a lot of wisdom
and and still a lot, a tremendous amount of life.
(02:10):
So you. Proved it in that movie.
I mean, I cried, I laughed. You had so many great emotions
ranging through every one of those interviews.
Thank you. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of
fun to film it. And after every interview that
I, that I filmed, I just felt sogood for the next couple of
weeks and so hopeful as as well.I mean, that was another reason
(02:34):
to do the documentary, even on apurely selfish level, right, Was
as a time where I'm reflecting about how do I want to spend the
next 30 years or so. I thought, well, I maybe these
folks can give me some some wisdom and I can learn from
them. And I I highly recommend it to
people. And that movie seemed to segue
(02:56):
into your second foray into producing and directing a movie.
I wanted to. I knew toward the end of filming
The 90s Club that I was enjoyingthe process of capturing oral
history and learning from peopleand meeting them.
I knew that I wanted to do something focusing on veterans.
(03:17):
My father had passed away. My sister and I came across his
uniform in the in the closet from the Korean War, his Army
uniform, and realized, you know,this was a time of his life and
his service that he would never really talk to him about that.
And so that general concept of capturing veterans and and doing
(03:39):
something along those lines, I knew that was going to be my
second film, but it was filming.My final interview for the 90s
Club. I interviewed Fred Gray, who
went on to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor
from Biden in the final year of his term.
Fred Gray, still a practicing civil rights attorney who had
represented Rosa Parks, doctor Martin Luther King.
(04:02):
And in our conversation, one of the things that that he spoke
about was his trouble and problems with the draft.
And so that gave focus to what became black uniform.
And I wound up interviewing 12 black men and women who had
served in the US military going back to World War 2.
How did Tuskegee Airmen, a womanthat had served in the 6888 and
(04:25):
then Korean War, Vietnam, Iraq and present day so.
What a topic. Wow.
Yeah, it played that. Played very well at the film
festivals, won best documentary at a number of them.
And yeah, it's very happy to do that film.
(04:47):
And your style on filming them both was very interesting.
Well, I'm used to this is unusual for me because I'm, I'm
the one being interviewed and oncamera, right.
And yes, my style is, I mean, I never appear on camera, maybe a
chuckle or two, but my questionsdon't appear on camera.
My face doesn't appear on camera.
It really is about, you know, the person that I that I'm
(05:10):
interviewing. Yeah, it was a very interesting
style. The first time I saw it.
I'm like, wow, this isn't expected, but it's so cool that
you're like dropping in on this conversation and you just hear
the responses. Well, so for the 90s club ride,
I try to use kind of it looks a little bit like old time movie
movie cards to carry the shift in subject and then didn't want
(05:33):
to repeat the same exact motif for for black uniform.
So there I wound up using news footage as the transition of of
topics. Yeah, super clever.
And you're working on another project.
I'm on the 3rd and probably final in this style of
interviewing 12 people within a category.
(05:57):
This one is proving to be the most challenging for me but I'm
also enjoying it quite a lot. It's called crowning
achievement. I'm interviewing 12 former Miss
Americas going back to through the decades so I've already
filmed BB Shop. Who's the oldest living Miss
America 1948 and during, you know, a winner from the 40's,
(06:20):
the 50s, sixties, seventies, 80sto present day, right?
So I've filmed seven of the 12 so far.
Oh my gosh, that's going to be funny because that is something
that has really changed year over year.
Yes, that's right. On the style, what's been
required? What's?
There's been the. Questions that the women are
(06:42):
asked. Yeah, there's there's been a
documentary or two that's focused more on the pageant and
even been a bit negative or critical of the pageant.
That's not my documentary. Mine is focusing on the women
themselves who won the title andreally about their lives and
career. And I, I'd say the themes that
(07:04):
focus on for the documentary, it's, you know, beauty and aging
Miss America pageant is a competition, but there's a
remarkable sisterhood that is formed amongst the, amongst the
winners. But then even amongst the, the
women of their particular year, you know, unlike other
(07:26):
competition shows, there really aren't any losers.
The, the women who don't get thetitle, there's 52 who
participate, including DC and Puerto Rico.
They go on. They're, they're still the
representative of their state for the next year.
So they all still have a job. You go back and if Miss Florida
(07:47):
didn't become Miss America, she's still Miss Florida and has
that job for the next year. And then the final theme for
that doc is just opportunity andaccomplishment.
You know, each of these women have achieved something that
only maybe 100 other women have ever accomplished in their life.
And you know, how did how did that, how did that go and shape
(08:10):
the rest of their lives? And what did they do with that?
What made you zoom in on that? It's such an interesting thing
to choose. Well, I think the, you know, the
black uniform, as I said, was inspired in part, you know, by
my father and father's uniform as a child used to watch this
America pageant would be one of the things that, you know, I'd
(08:33):
be able to stay up late each year and watch with my mother.
It was always a top rated show along with the Super Bowl and
Academy Awards. You know, through the years,
the, you know, network audience for the show is diminished.
But I know I've always going back through the years when I
was six years old, I wrote a book knowing you're America.
(08:54):
So I've always been fascinated by the states.
And so I, you know, that, you know, motivated this this
particular film. But as I said, this one's been a
little more challenging because there's a much smaller pool of
people to select from, you know,not always easy to find them and
(09:17):
then to, you know, find those who would want to participate,
you know, want to participate, but.
Have you found someone for each decade?
As I said, I've done seven of the 12 so far, so I've got a
couple more. I think I've filmed 6 decades a
month to seven and I have three more decades to cover so.
(09:37):
Wow. That is, that is a project now,
having worked an entire lifetimeas an attorney structuring
deals, doing deals on all sides,representing talents,
representing I'd guess you wouldsay the studios.
(09:59):
How was it to take a film and then go get it?
You know, go to award ceremoniesand or and try to get it
disseminated and all that. What was that experience from
your perspective? I think it was.
I had a little bit of knowledge as to that process, but much
like the filming itself, I started and didn't know what I
(10:22):
was doing. I think where the legal skills
kicked in was during the editingprocess.
As a lawyer, I'm a natural editor and so I think what a lot
of film makers probably linger on their films and think that
they need every scene. It was easier for me to say
that's already been covered. I remember a different
(10:45):
interview. We said it better and able to
kind of cut or we don't need thenext sentence.
That's just filler. And so I think from the Gecko is
able to work with the editor so that it was a tighter right away
then. I don't know.
I mean, I remember the first Film Festival that I went to
(11:08):
with the 90s Club was the Santa Barbara International Film
Festival, which is a very well regarded festival and it takes
place about a week or a month orso before the Oscar ceremony.
And so they have a lot of eventswith high level people that
(11:28):
attend that festival and that. So it was a great honor to be
there. And I couldn't believe a movie
that I did. You know, my first film is at
this Film Festival and is getting to play for an audience.
And then, you know, went on to play in 20 some festivals and,
you know, then to find out at a couple of them what I won the
(11:48):
prize for. That's documentary.
Yeah. Super cool.
Super cool. Never, never expected that, you
know, type of, you know, that kind of honor.
And then when it happens again, then it does build up a little
bit of exercation and. Pressure.
And then you get noticed, oh, you've not been accepted for a
(12:10):
festival or you've been rejected.
And it's like, what? I won the last one.
This place doesn't even want to include my film.
But, you know, those festivals are, you know, carefully
curated. I think people are trying to,
you know, achieve different tones and you.
I mean, there's so much competition, so many great films
(12:31):
out there. When you go to the festival,
it's easy to understand why you might not be accepted.
Yeah. You know you have dealt with
competition your whole life. Entertainment is an area that.
I always say law is my sport. Yeah, and entertainment law.
I mean, there's a lot of people who want to work in that field,
(12:53):
yet you are a force of nature init, highly recognized by your
peers and clients on all sides. What do you how how do you have
did you become this gladiator inthis field?
What was your? What would you say as your?
I think endurance there's. A lot to be.
(13:15):
Said for endurance. I originally went to law school
to I went to Georgetown. I wanted to pursue a career in
international trade. I didn't even really know what
that was, but I know I liked theworld and I liked the word
international. So I signed up and I went to
(13:36):
went to Georgetown and for the first year I worked at the front
French Embassy. I took trade classes, even
international trade was competitive to get into that
area. It sounds very glamorous and
that and during a summer position, I worked with a
practice group that did that type of work.
And it wasn't quite what I expected.
(13:57):
It was a lot of document review and those who did travel would
go to some interesting places like Thailand or Brazil to
evaluate anti dumping or counterfeiting type of cases.
But I just heard that they stayed in warehouses reviewing
boxes and a lot of it was economics and evaluating those
(14:18):
type of things. That at that same time, my
second year of law school, I took the only entertainment
course that was available at Georgetown by really great
professor who's passed away, Professor Gordon.
And he had a lot of speakers come in and speak to the class
about their careers, which all sounded fascinating.
(14:39):
It was the same class that you had to write a seminar paper
for. And I chose to wrote about write
about the Twilight Zone movie which had Victoria Morrow and
two young children who were all killed on this said of the
Twilight Zone when a helicopter.Actually.
Happened so I wrote about a comparison piece between
(15:02):
California law and New York law about engaging minors in
production. So the Coogan laws that protect
your, the money that is earned by children in establishment of
trust accounts, the work hours and schooling requirements and
that and it got published out inCalifornia.
(15:25):
So the late 80s there was a lot of competition for talent coming
out of law school. And I was able to turn one of my
offers into an opportunity to split my time doing
entertainment litigation and entertainment transactional
work. So I was fortunate to be able to
start right into entertainment. Did did?
(15:46):
Did you find you had a preference over?
Immediately. Transaction versus.
Litigation transactional. Do those transactions often end
up litigational? I think it's nice that you have
both. I think the litigators would
wish that the deals would turn into more litigation, but I
mean, my goal is to make sure that that does.
Doesn't happen. That doesn't happen.
(16:07):
Yeah, I like the pace and the movement of the transactional
work as opposed to, you know, litigation can drag out for for
years. It may take a decade for a movie
to get launched from when you started working on it, but the
components of it, of attaching awriter or attaching a director,
(16:30):
those things happen relatively quickly.
So when you're doing transactional work in
entertainment, it could be can can you walk us through what
that might look like? The bulk of my work tends to be,
you know, on behalf of a streamer, a studio, a network.
So typically they have in house lawyers and business affairs
(16:54):
executives who along with the production executives, you know,
first the production executives or the creatives will select the
cast that they want. Then someone in business affairs
will go out and try to strike the deal with that particular
actor, director and for a lot ofthe situations I don't get
(17:16):
involved until that deal's been cut.
And then it comes to me for paper and negotiating out on the
long form. When I've worked on independent
films or for international production companies, then I
play the role of business affairs as well.
And I will reach out and negotiate with the agents on
behalf of the company and say, well, we would like Nicole
(17:39):
Kidman for this movie. And they'll tell you this is
what her last quote was, that she will say, oh, that's that's
the same as the budget of this little independent film.
Would she do it for way, way less And then when somebody
works for a lot less compensation that they would
(18:00):
then they would ordinarily get or their quote.
You have to find incentives and ways where in the success of the
film they can continue to participate in its success,
whether that's bonuses based on the box office of the movie
either domestically or worldwideor a participation in the kind
(18:23):
of that you'd like to say the back end, the participation once
the investors have recouped. And then there may be with the
streamers that may be depending on how how well the production
is doing on the streaming service, there might be another,
another bonus or if it gets an Academy Award or Golden Globe
(18:46):
nomination, there could be some additional bonuses there.
So. Oh my gosh, your answer
triggered so many questions. I'm trying to track them all in
my mind. One is you kind of bought me
around to the opening question of this How would you define who
holds the power in Hollywood? How?
How is that power shift based onsomeone's career along the way?
(19:08):
Like is it the studio or does anactor you know, get to a level
where they have more power than the studio?
Like how does? How would you define that?
I think, and again, even though I'm most typically not on the
talent side, I'd say the talent tends to have more leverage
generally and that it's surprising.
(19:31):
It may not even be somebody who is a A level *.
I think once a director and a casting director and the actual
director of the film and the creative at the studio or the
streamer has somebody in mind for a role, you know, unless
(19:53):
they're really so far out of theparameters in terms of, you
know, the budget for the movie, people are really set on that
person. Even if it's the 6th lead, you
know, it's the, it's, you know, it's going to be Brad Pitt's
neighbor in the movie. Once people start envisioning
who that is, they want that person.
(20:15):
Interesting. Yes, there could be 6-12 other
people that could be Brad Pitt'sneighbor in the movie, but
everybody's kind of set on that person.
So again, unless they really areexpecting twice as much as is,
you know, budgeted for that particular role, I think, yeah,
(20:37):
that's who everybody wants. Open Do you think that decision
making process is like, let's say if someone's a new talent
and they're trying to make theirway in, but they haven't been
seen in that many things? So yeah, I suppose, you know,
those folks don't have a tremendous amount of leverage in
(21:00):
terms of maybe negotiating for some additional perks or a
significant back end participation, if at all.
I think that's part of a, A builds over the course of their
career, maybe an actor and have 0 participation and then after a
few roles, maybe you can get 2 1/2% of net profits.
(21:24):
Very, very, very unlikely you will ever see anything based on
that. But then the next one it's,
you're getting 5% of next net profits.
And then, you know, if you buildthis over the course of the
career to 10% of net profits, oh, now it's not net profits,
it's a, it's a bit sooner in thewaterfall.
(21:45):
You know, it's adjusted gross proceeds.
Isn't that the joke in the business?
The net profits? Profits because there's all the
expenses that get. Well, I think, you know, net
profits is a, is a formula ever.It's not necessarily tied to
actual account. I think people try to think of
it in terms of accounting principles that would apply to a
(22:06):
different business. It doesn't seem to make sense.
But if you look at it more as a formula, you know, the studio's
going to take a distribution fee, they're going to take their
distribution expenses and marketing.
And there's some, you know, overhead on that marketing.
And then there's interest because this money and he's been
out of pocket for quite some time.
(22:26):
And then they need to recoup allof the other third party
expenses for all the others. And so it does take quite a long
time to get to the notion of netprofits.
People see the big numbers at the box office that a movie made
a billion dollars. But you know, to get to that
billion dollars, there's the significant cost of the movie.
(22:47):
As much as it cost to make a movie, it usually spent cost
that much to market the movie aswell.
You've seen so many changes overyour career and those changes
seem to be accelerating, like just the shift from, you know,
the length of time movies went to a box office to the whole
(23:09):
streaming industry. Now what are?
What are your observations with that and how this is all
shifting and changing? Yeah, I think, I mean the
pandemic expedited things there too, right?
Because there weren't theaters to go to and there were certain
movies that were already made and just sitting on the shelf
(23:29):
and people at home had an appetite for things.
So certain movies shifted and went immediately to streaming or
to electronic sell through. You could buy the movie instead
of going to the to the movie. You know, the the box office has
taken some time to kind of recover from that.
And some could say it's not quite recovered, but certain,
(23:53):
you know, certain films are having massive success and
people only want to see them in a in a movie theater.
And I don't see that going goingaway.
But yeah, the the window from when something is in a theater
to when it's available, you know, on a pay-per-view type of
(24:13):
basis is, is pretty short, rightNowadays, yeah.
How does it work when things like, you know, Superman for, I
mean, I grew up on Superman and obviously that was a different
Clark Kent than the 10 we've seen.
How does it work when a movie revives a theme and a character
like that? I mean, there's a couple of
(24:36):
different ways to go. Some are very reverential,
right? And trying to get to the same
place and some of the reboots goa completely different
direction, right? I mean.
Frank Miller worked on with Batman and The Dark Knight, you
know. Yeah, either in terms of right,
something in terms of tone shifts completely, or, you know,
(24:59):
a male protagonist becomes a female in this one.
I grew up watching One Day at a Time and Norman Lear series
years ago. And then about five years ago it
relaunched again. Still Norman Lear was still
alive and it was launched with a, with a Cuban American family
(25:22):
portraying the family. So it was a, you know, a
different take on it entirely. You know what's funny with
things like that? You just raised an interesting
thought. You know, if it's a family
situation and the theme is one day at a time, you could imagine
a Cuban family versus a, you know, a white Caucasian family,
let's say, like me, although that's a pretty broad
(25:45):
generalization for a white Caucasian, you know, where
anything you could say each family has a different
structure. The one that always blows me
away is, OK, let's take James Bond.
Why couldn't they call the next character Double O 8 or Double O
9, like shaking James Bond and changing who was James Bond,
(26:08):
which was this a guy in a periodof time when sexiness was just
sexiness and, you know, and he got the woman and he, you know,
whatever. It's kind of like we knew that
was his character. That was how he was done to
modify James Bond as a differentcharacter.
I'm like, it's just not James Bond anymore.
(26:28):
Call him somebody else. Keep the theme.
Let him keep working for the same organization, but modernize
the theme. What do you think about that?
It's an interesting trend. Well, I am working with Amazon,
MGM on, you know, the Bond project.
Everything is, you know, very, very confidential.
(26:51):
But I think there's a tremendousamount of excitement about, you
know, where Bond will be, where Bond will be going.
And they announced the director for the next Bond film, Danny
Villanuev, who had done the Dunefilms.
And so I, I think, you know, thebuzz out there in terms of
(27:12):
that's who the next director is going to be.
That's going to be very cool, you know, and I have no idea who
the new bond will be. So it'll be, you know, but I
think, I think it, you know, it's exciting to see where,
where it'll go. Oh.
That's very interesting. Yeah.
Because kind of like when DanielCraig died, I'm like, OK, James,
(27:35):
no more James Bond. It's going to be some other
number now, but the same kind oftheme.
Yeah. This is going to be very
interesting to see how that unfolds.
I didn't realize you were working on that.
Didn't want to put you on the spot there, Robert.
Well, fortunately I I don't knowany of the secrets.
Yet so you you besides the pandemic, having people stay at
(28:02):
home that that huge shift with big names moving to not just ATV
show, but the series, you know, Billy Bob Thornton and Landman
or you know, any, any of the series.
Nicole Kidman and everything. Exactly.
It's like all of a sudden it, I mean, Helen Mirren in, you know,
(28:24):
from all the things she did in the Yellowstone series to then
doing Mobland and like. Yeah, you see Harrison Ford and
shrinking and also in the Yellowstone universe.
And I mean, the money is quite good.
That's what I was. Wondering what's that money like
compared to doing a film? Or like why?
(28:45):
What's causing that huge attraction?
Well, I, I think, you know, there's fewer feature films
being made and so there are, youknow, fewer opportunities there.
A lot of the films that you know, that are being made fall
into the category of being a franchise.
(29:06):
So if you weren't in the first or the second, you're not going
to get in the 3rd or the 4th maybe, except as an, you know,
an ancillary new character. And that.
So, you know, the pool of opportunities to work in, you
know, theatrical motion picturesis smaller.
There's still, you know, still indie films out there, but, you
know, they don't pay very well at all.
(29:28):
And the trouble with doing an indie film is you're not sure
it's ever going to find distribution.
Yeah. You know, there's a lot of great
films that play Sundance, Tribeca and audiences like them,
but you know, a major studio won't pick them up or a small
(29:50):
independent distributor won't pick them up in part because it,
as we talked about before, it's very expensive to market a film.
And so unless it's got a built in audience like Barbie,
Barbie's an original film. You know, it there'd never been
a Barbie movie before. But everybody knows Barbie,
(30:10):
right? You know, there will be a Hot
Wheels movie and everybody you know, knows Hot Wheels.
So you've got some built in pre-existing IP there that
people can focus on. But trying to launch a
completely unknown title? Sell the story, even if it's got
some recognizable cast, it has to breakthrough all that other
(30:33):
noise and competition for people's eyeballs.
And what does that distribution look like now?
Like if you create an independent film today, are you
hoping to get into a theater? Do you need to get into a
theater? Do you need to then get to
festivals or things like that? Or people hoping they can go
straight to a streaming service?Like what's that process like
(30:54):
now? How has it changed?
Some how. Was it the same?
Because I don't even know what it was there's.
There's 2 routes to go. Some will try to shop their
package before the film is made.Take it to the natural buying
sources for that film. Who would Who would be natural?
Buying sources, I don't it woulddepend on the budget of of the
(31:17):
film, but you know, you might think, oh, I'm going to take
that to Amazon, or I mean, take that to Netflix.
The, you know, streamers have bought so much over the past few
years, but if they happen to pass on it, you know it's not
going to be picked up by Disney or Paramount again.
They've got their own slate. They, you know, they'll keep
their eyes open for some gems, but there's not many slots
(31:40):
there. But you still want to make your
movie, maybe adjust the budget. You find somebody who supports
it. You, you know, find the
financing. You pre sell some certain
territories around the world andyou make your movie.
Now you have to still sell. It was the movie that everyone
passed on at the script stage, but now there's something for
(32:00):
them to see and hopefully some festival recognition will
bolster the likelihood that it'll be sold.
You know, people see it and, andI think it's everybody's initial
dream and goal who's involved with the film, that it goes to
theaters, although that may not necessarily be the most
(32:21):
profitable route. Again, goes to theaters right
away. It's going to take a while to
recoup that. The money that they advanced for
the movie, then they've got to recoup all that marketing.
Another way to do it is to kind of create some sort of word of
mouth, some sort of smaller marketing campaign, make it
(32:41):
available, you know, on a pay-per-view or electronic sell
through basis. If it can find that audience
where people will then, you know, purchase it and more of
the money will go more immediately back to the to the
financiers and the producers. You know, when you were talking,
I wonder, I go back to 2003 where everyone before that 2000
(33:09):
where everyone I would meet would say, well, I have a.com
company and Coca-Cola is going to be my sponsor or Pepsi is
going to be my sponsor. Everyone had it.
The biggest companies in the world, we're going to sponsor
their idea. And, you know, these companies
were getting funded and it was crazy and it led to the.com bust
in 2003. But when I think of Movies Now,
what is the competition? Are more people making movies
(33:35):
because there are so many more streamers and outlets and cable
channels? How's that balanced these days?
Is is there enough content for the outlets or is there too much
content for the outlets in what you've observed?
There's the past few years therewas a big content boom.
Uh huh. And, you know, new platforms
(33:59):
were launching. They all needed content.
Maybe they didn't yet have theirown internal development slates
ready. You know, there was interruption
from the strikes, the pandemic. So they were in a buying mode.
I think a couple things happened.
(34:19):
You know, Wall Street really focused in on the profitability
of these streaming services, whether it was an independent
one or one related to a studio. And, you know, it became
important. Are they increasing their
subscribers? Are the shows, you know, is
(34:40):
there an afterlife for the show?Because a lot of times the
streamers weren't selling their shows afterward to third
parties. Some of that is happening now.
So I think the streamers have all taken a look at things and
want their shows to have a smarter budget.
(35:02):
So I think they're, you know, there's been a tightening up on
the the amount that's being ordered at the at the moment.
But you know, at the same time, seems as I mean, the world is
huge. There are a lot of very, very
wealthy people out there who want to perhaps get into film,
(35:27):
be an executive producer on something, or have a passion
about a particular cause or theme.
Interesting. And so maybe it's something
that, you know, they want to support, something that will
promote the environment, you know, or, or there's it seems to
(35:50):
be a number of people who will want to invest in films that
cater to a religious audience, you know, something that's close
or personal to them. It's, you know, if there was, if
you could have a list of the billionaires or the, you know,
the mega millionaires and you know, they all, you know, who do
(36:11):
I go to that would invest in this film?
And, you know, doesn't particularly care if it makes
money or not. It'd be great to have that, that
list. But so I think, you know, over
time some, you know, you'll see people find these people through
friends of friends and for smaller of smaller independent
(36:32):
productions, if it's not a particularly large budget, you
know, people have been very successful at crowdfunding.
You know, if they have a little bit of history, they're able to
film something that looks like atrailer that to get people
excited and go out there and they have a lot of friends and
family and then kind of can build some buzz from there.
(36:54):
You know, maybe if they can do their movie for 100,200 thousand
dollars. Are those like reggae's of some
form a crowdfunding for a movie?How is that just a crowdfunding
where you get tickets when it comes out or a T-shirt?
Yeah, something like that or youknow, information flow or you
(37:14):
know, ultimately maybe you know,refunded if the money if the
movie makes a particular level. But yeah, they're not going
through an SCC blue sky process or anything like that.
So it is, yeah, it is a high risk investment.
Yeah, but you get to say you helped produce a film that's.
Right, people like that and it's.
(37:36):
Kind of like owning a boat of vine and.
You can set up different, you know, different tiers.
I mean, I would, you know, take your $100, I'll take your $500.
Somebody gives me 5000, OK? They're an associate producer,
you know, and can buy your way into that.
You know another shift you've been seeing the last writers and
writers and actors strikes we'reheavily surrounded with AI.
(38:04):
What are you what are you seeingfrom your seat in the the
different sides of how everyone's perceiving the impact
of AI on the film industry I. Think.
Or entertainment in general. I think lawyers we need a union
to AI is coming well for you. Know for everything, yes, for, I
(38:24):
mean, I can't believe it. I've seen the difference in PR,
I've seen the difference in, I mean basically every industry.
Yeah, I don't think. Anything's going to.
Approach. How somebody thinks that's, you
know, and their personality thatthey bring to whatever the
situation is, but. But I I think rather than being
afraid of it coming, I mean it is coming.
(38:47):
The genie's out of that bottle. Better is to find ways to
embrace it to make whatever you're doing, you know, kind of,
you know, more efficient. And for law, and we'll talk a
little bit about those other areas too, but for all for law,
instead of needing someone to take, you know, a box of
(39:08):
documents and go research through that, which would take,
you know, 3-4 days to read everyline, you can't get that scanned
in you. It'll kick out a summary almost
instantaneously. Now that summary not, is not
something that at this point I would ask anybody to officially
(39:30):
rely on. But instead of needing that four
days to go through that box, younow have a summary in a road map
of exactly where to go where youwant to see.
Okay, now I'm going to look at this language, you know, I'm
going to ask it some some specific questions and prompts
and you know, and becoming more sophisticated in terms of how to
(39:51):
use it and to prompt it. So it is more valuable to, you
know, I think and the Actors Guild focused very much on on AI
in terms of digital replicas, you know, protecting actors.
Jobs also for, you know, for crowd scenes, you know, that's
(40:14):
been in place for for quite sometime where there were, you know,
computer generated crowds, you know, preserving ways where your
performance in one particular movie can then not be used in a
next one without there being some additional compensation.
Coming back to the you know, to the actor, I mean the concern
(40:38):
with writers and AII mean from the studios.
There's often a clause in the writer contract that says, you
know, you writer represented Warren to me, that you did not
use AI in connection with creative.
Interesting. Because for the moment and the
you know the copyright the copyright law is on well it
(41:01):
hasn't been determined as of yet.
AIS contribution is not copyright protectable takes a
human to create a copyright. So if you're going to spend $100
million to make a movie and it'sbased on something that AI
created and you don't have copyright protection in it, well
(41:23):
then there's no ability to enforce others from infringing
upon that or taking that. So there is value, tremendous
value in having an original creation.
That is a really fascinating concept.
It reminds years. For quite a while we
represented. I worked with Avalon Ventures
(41:43):
and one of the partners, Rich Levandov, always used to say
technology precedes the law. You know, there will be things
that technology will do that will find ways to do things or
something will happen and then the law will have to catch up to
figure out how are we going to regulate this or what are we
going to say. In entertainment, surprisingly,
(42:04):
it was oftentimes the porn industry, oh that was pushing
the envelope whether it was. Absolutely. 1st Amendment or
other, you know, DVD's. Yeah.
Video 8. 100 numbers, yes, you know that's where it started.
My first one, 800 bucks when I'mlike, I want to learn about how
to have a you know, or you know,a 1900 number like every example
(42:25):
was the board industry. I'm like.
Yeah, the cut the cutting edge of a lot.
But yeah, I mean, see, we'll seewhere it goes.
But I think, you know, it's, it's best if you kind of not
push it aside, but kind of embrace how can this help me in,
(42:47):
in my practice. But again, for, you know, I have
a lot of young lawyers on my team and we do talk kind of
weekly about, you know, the coming of AI and how it can save
tremendous amount of billable hours, which could mean a reduce
in reduction in in the workforceover time or fewer opportunities
(43:09):
for new lawyers to come in to. I want each of them now thinking
about what is my value add, you know, how am I different or
better than AI? And certainly it's having that
personal connection. And then it's perhaps I mean,
(43:29):
we've never as a law firm, you know, LED with, you know, we're
the broker for you, you know, we're we're your lawyer.
We're going to take care of the paperwork.
Of course, we've made introductions on different deals
like, oh, somebody's looking forthis, You should talk to them.
I heard this person, you know, might want something like your
project go have a conversation. But I think doing something
(43:53):
doing, stepping that up, being, you know, a gateway or an access
to other companies and to other people will become more
important. It's something you know that AI
wouldn't be doing for you, but you know, but through your own
relationships and, you know, being able to vouch for your
clients will become valuable. So establishing those personal
(44:19):
connections with decision makersI think is on top of the legal
skills, something that'll be necessary for.
So can I kind of put you on the spot?
I want to give you a chance to brag about yourself in a way.
Because if let's say your your team is sitting around you and
you said, listen, team, you know, we want to keep being the
(44:42):
top entertainment team in Hollywood, which basically means
the world if you're working in entertainment, in my opinion.
OK, So if we want to keep being the top Entertainment Group in
the world, you have to know yourvalue add.
What's Robert Darwell's value add?
There's a reason you get all these accolades from the
(45:04):
industry, from your peers, from people who work in entertainment
at the highest levels. So I want to give you a bragging
rights right now. And I don't want you to be
humble. What's what would you say to
your team? Pretend we're talking.
About this, this isn't, this isn't me being humble, OK, but I
(45:24):
I think, OK, what? Am I mean I could come up with a
bunch and tell you what. I think what am I, you would
know more. My greatest strengths over the
years is that I've been really good at selecting people to work
with me, and it's probably the one thing that I'm most proud of
too. Even people that have left me
(45:47):
through the years have gone on to achieve such great success
than heads of legal departments at the, you know, at the studios
work at other firms and you know, became partner and top
attorneys at other places. And the current team probably
(46:08):
has been with me the longest andthe most consistent Think
through the pandemic. We got very close.
I think it was the first time westarted, you know, bi weekly or
twice a week meetings and reallygetting to know each other so
that friends are there. So I do feel like I have a
particular eye for hiring people.
(46:30):
Right now on the team, we're about 26.
On my individual team, we cover 12 languages.
Oh my gosh. So I always, you know, at one
time I had a requirement that you had to have a second
language in order to work on my team, mostly because it cut the
resume staff down. But you know, that's opened up a
(46:52):
tremendous amount of business for us throughout Latin America.
Two people on the team are from Colombia, one is from Brazil.
Woman that most recently joined was practicing at a top firm in
Beirut. I think the attorney I heard
before that was from China and then received his LLM at UCLA.
(47:17):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, so an.
Interesting way of thinking and creating.
And I think that, yeah, I think that has helped us kind of on a
global market. We don't always have to send
something out to somebody else because it's in French and
someone there on the team can read it or look at it in Italian
in real time, in real time. So we don't lose that or I don't
(47:43):
know, recently there was a around the holiday time last
year, Polish Music Company came in and they were looking for
lawyers in LA and they've been recommended to me.
Well, one of the longtime assistants in the office who is
not a practicing attorney, but she's originally from Poland.
I had her come in and sit in themeeting and just, you know,
(48:04):
speak with them and join. And, you know, they thought, oh,
are you going to do the work? And it's, she's like, oh, no,
I'm not a lawyer. I think, you know, that helped
establish those connections. I think it's also benefited me
personally to work with such a kind of motivated
entrepreneurial team because it keeps me energized, you know,
(48:27):
in. Kind of.
It's great to see people learn around you.
I definitely learn from them every day, whether it's
something new on the system, youknow, or kind of the different
AI platforms that we are using. You know, I could sit in a
(48:48):
lecture from, you know, some IT person at the firm or I can get
it, the practical knowledge of it by working with one of the
people on my team who is using it.
It's like great, sorry, I don't know.
I think having that, that I and going with my instinct on, on
people, a lot of people look terrific on paper.
(49:11):
Great. Law school, college and and even
before it was a thing, I always liked the 360 interview.
I'd like when they would get to me, I'd say, oh, let's walk out
and get a yogurt. Or it used to be when there were
record stores, let's go to the record store, you know, and you
get them out of the office and talk about what was the last
(49:33):
concert you went to? Yeah.
Where did you travel last? You know the non legal questions
And you'd start to get a sense of their personality and how it
would be like to actually work with them on a day in and day
out basis. Immediately.
Even if somebody is great, if they have something negative to
(49:55):
say about their current employer, that like extremely
unlikely I would ever go furtherin the process with that person.
What would that trigger in you? I think they're going to come
(50:15):
here and it will be the same thing or even even worse, you
know, in terms of, yeah, we work, you know, work very hard,
you know, quirky personality. I don't want to hear them speak.
I'll of, you know, their currentcolleagues or their current
supervisor. It's just right the the wrong
messaging for for an interview. You know, it's interesting.
(50:38):
Unfortunately, we're getting tight on time, but you kind of
bought me full circle to your daily server Instagram account
that you keep, because what I love about that is it really
shows that you're, you honor people in an interesting way,
(51:00):
which if I was going to describeyou, I would, you know, that
would be one of the things I would say to if I was Robert
Darwell addressing my team aboutyour value add, I'd say, listen,
you know the law, if you've got multiple languages, you know,
(51:21):
bring your bring those people skills that you excel at.
I mean, that's just an exceptional quality that it's
just exceptional. Why they?
Really have that. It's the service component too.
I mean, law is a profession, butyou have to to deliver on this
(51:44):
service. And I mean, that does sometimes
come with tremendous sacrifice. Everybody wants things now.
Yesterday. Yeah, you're right, It's over.
It's now is late. Yes, it's overdue from the
minute that it's been been givento you.
And I know the first question when I give somebody an
assignment is, oh, when is, you know, what's the due date?
It's like, you know, the due date.
(52:08):
And if we ask the client, I mean, it's always ASAP.
You know, I, there are some really great clients who will
say, you know, I don't need thisfor a week.
And that's, you know, that's good.
But. My weeks are four days.
That's right. I know.
You know, it's keeping clients informed even when there is no
progress. Yeah, a lot of times we're
(52:30):
following up with the other side.
Show them that you've been following up.
Make them feel that you are taking care of them.
You have to take ownership of your project.
Think about not just what they've given you, but what they
haven't given you or told you. Not to try to generate
additional work in that, but just to take care of them.
(52:52):
Hey, you asked me to do this contract and there's a reference
to something else. Is that documented or that
person's bringing on as an assistant?
Do you have a piece of paper with that person?
You know, keep asking the questions, get to know the
project. And yeah, encourage everybody to
not only go to lunch with your client, but go to a lunch with
(53:14):
opposing counsel, Get to know them.
You're going to see them again. That'll increase efficiencies
hopefully in negotiations down the road to know that person,
develop that level of trust. You know, I mean, entertainment
law is, you know, there's a number of people who are kind of
(53:37):
questionable reputations, you know, you know, make sure you're
not one of them. Make sure that you can be
counted on and you know what you're saying is accurate and
true. And if you don't know the
answer, say you don't know the answer.
You know, I was just going to ask you in closing statement,
what would be your advice? And it's kind of tough to top
that one, you know, if you don'tknow the answer, say you don't
(53:59):
know the answer. Wow.
What else would you say to someone?
I'm that you're also, if we don't know the answer, I take AI
take a quick pause and say, you know what, we'll get back to you
after lunch or you know, the phones ringing, I'll be right.
I'll be back to you in two hours.
And then I make sure I go and learn that answer right during
that period of time so that I can't call back.
(54:20):
And so I do rarely say don't know the answer.
It'll be more I need to get backto you and then get back to them
super quickly with the actual answer, yeah.
I want to thank you so much for joining me.
This went too fast, like I knew it would.
Well, you made it very easy. Nice talking with you and thank
you for the the great questions.Thank you.
(54:42):
I have been speaking with RobertDarwell who you can find at
Shepherd Mullen. I highly recommend you do check
him out. His info for the firm.
His bio will be below. And it's such a pleasure
speaking with you. You're so knowledgeable.
You're you're so personable. Thank you, Robert.
(55:02):
OK. Thank you.
Diane, I'm Diane Grisell. This has been the Silver
Disobedience Perception Dynamicspodcast, and we're in iconic
Manhattan Center. We're in TV 2 right now.
It's a really cool place. A lot of great things happened
here and I'm grateful that they let me happen here along with
Robert. Thank you.
Subscribe.
Hi. Have you ever wondered who holds
the power in Hollywood? I have.
Well, today I have a really interesting guest.
He's producer and an attorney. In fact, he's the head of global
media at Shepherd Mullen. His name's Robert Darwell.
(00:21):
Now, let me tell you a little bit about him.
I'm going to look at my notes because I want to make sure I
get this right. OK?
Hollywood Reporter named him thePower lawyer.
Variety called him Dealmaker, Super Lawyer and Billboard
listened as a top music lawyer. So the guy's got clout, knows
all sides of the business, and I've got a lot of questions for
(00:44):
him. So welcome, Robert.
Thank you. Thank you for having me on,
Diane. You know, and one thing I forgot
to say in your intro, which I think is incredibly important
and I think we should start there, you are producing.
So you not only do all these mega legal deals, you have
produced 2 amazing films and rumor has it there might be a
(01:05):
third one on the way. That's right.
Your first one, the 90s club, What inspired that?
The 90s Club what that that documentary features 12 people
between the ages of 90 and 99 years old.
And I started it because I'm always felt great respect for
(01:26):
the well aged and wanted to share that with an audience.
I think it I filmed it a couple years ago.
There had already been much needed social justice for many
groups, but I still felt that kind of senior seniors weren't
getting that level of respect. And there's seems to be a built
(01:49):
in prejudice once you hear the, you know, somebody's age and you
start to think that they have some sort of diminished capacity
and, you know, whether it's mentally or physically.
And that's not always the case. And even just when somebody's
quite older, there's a lot of richness there, a lot of wisdom
and and still a lot, a tremendous amount of life.
(02:10):
So you. Proved it in that movie.
I mean, I cried, I laughed. You had so many great emotions
ranging through every one of those interviews.
Thank you. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of
fun to film it. And after every interview that
I, that I filmed, I just felt sogood for the next couple of
weeks and so hopeful as as well.I mean, that was another reason
(02:34):
to do the documentary, even on apurely selfish level, right, Was
as a time where I'm reflecting about how do I want to spend the
next 30 years or so. I thought, well, I maybe these
folks can give me some some wisdom and I can learn from
them. And I I highly recommend it to
people. And that movie seemed to segue
(02:56):
into your second foray into producing and directing a movie.
I wanted to. I knew toward the end of filming
The 90s Club that I was enjoyingthe process of capturing oral
history and learning from peopleand meeting them.
I knew that I wanted to do something focusing on veterans.
(03:17):
My father had passed away. My sister and I came across his
uniform in the in the closet from the Korean War, his Army
uniform, and realized, you know,this was a time of his life and
his service that he would never really talk to him about that.
And so that general concept of capturing veterans and and doing
(03:39):
something along those lines, I knew that was going to be my
second film, but it was filming.My final interview for the 90s
Club. I interviewed Fred Gray, who
went on to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor
from Biden in the final year of his term.
Fred Gray, still a practicing civil rights attorney who had
represented Rosa Parks, doctor Martin Luther King.
(04:02):
And in our conversation, one of the things that that he spoke
about was his trouble and problems with the draft.
And so that gave focus to what became black uniform.
And I wound up interviewing 12 black men and women who had
served in the US military going back to World War 2.
How did Tuskegee Airmen, a womanthat had served in the 6888 and
(04:25):
then Korean War, Vietnam, Iraq and present day so.
What a topic. Wow.
Yeah, it played that. Played very well at the film
festivals, won best documentary at a number of them.
And yeah, it's very happy to do that film.
(04:47):
And your style on filming them both was very interesting.
Well, I'm used to this is unusual for me because I'm, I'm
the one being interviewed and oncamera, right.
And yes, my style is, I mean, I never appear on camera, maybe a
chuckle or two, but my questionsdon't appear on camera.
My face doesn't appear on camera.
It really is about, you know, the person that I that I'm
(05:10):
interviewing. Yeah, it was a very interesting
style. The first time I saw it.
I'm like, wow, this isn't expected, but it's so cool that
you're like dropping in on this conversation and you just hear
the responses. Well, so for the 90s club ride,
I try to use kind of it looks a little bit like old time movie
movie cards to carry the shift in subject and then didn't want
(05:33):
to repeat the same exact motif for for black uniform.
So there I wound up using news footage as the transition of of
topics. Yeah, super clever.
And you're working on another project.
I'm on the 3rd and probably final in this style of
interviewing 12 people within a category.
(05:57):
This one is proving to be the most challenging for me but I'm
also enjoying it quite a lot. It's called crowning
achievement. I'm interviewing 12 former Miss
Americas going back to through the decades so I've already
filmed BB Shop. Who's the oldest living Miss
America 1948 and during, you know, a winner from the 40's,
(06:20):
the 50s, sixties, seventies, 80sto present day, right?
So I've filmed seven of the 12 so far.
Oh my gosh, that's going to be funny because that is something
that has really changed year over year.
Yes, that's right. On the style, what's been
required? What's?
There's been the. Questions that the women are
(06:42):
asked. Yeah, there's there's been a
documentary or two that's focused more on the pageant and
even been a bit negative or critical of the pageant.
That's not my documentary. Mine is focusing on the women
themselves who won the title andreally about their lives and
career. And I, I'd say the themes that
(07:04):
focus on for the documentary, it's, you know, beauty and aging
Miss America pageant is a competition, but there's a
remarkable sisterhood that is formed amongst the, amongst the
winners. But then even amongst the, the
women of their particular year, you know, unlike other
(07:26):
competition shows, there really aren't any losers.
The, the women who don't get thetitle, there's 52 who
participate, including DC and Puerto Rico.
They go on. They're, they're still the
representative of their state for the next year.
So they all still have a job. You go back and if Miss Florida
(07:47):
didn't become Miss America, she's still Miss Florida and has
that job for the next year. And then the final theme for
that doc is just opportunity andaccomplishment.
You know, each of these women have achieved something that
only maybe 100 other women have ever accomplished in their life.
And you know, how did how did that, how did that go and shape
(08:10):
the rest of their lives? And what did they do with that?
What made you zoom in on that? It's such an interesting thing
to choose. Well, I think the, you know, the
black uniform, as I said, was inspired in part, you know, by
my father and father's uniform as a child used to watch this
America pageant would be one of the things that, you know, I'd
(08:33):
be able to stay up late each year and watch with my mother.
It was always a top rated show along with the Super Bowl and
Academy Awards. You know, through the years,
the, you know, network audience for the show is diminished.
But I know I've always going back through the years when I
was six years old, I wrote a book knowing you're America.
(08:54):
So I've always been fascinated by the states.
And so I, you know, that, you know, motivated this this
particular film. But as I said, this one's been a
little more challenging because there's a much smaller pool of
people to select from, you know,not always easy to find them and
(09:17):
then to, you know, find those who would want to participate,
you know, want to participate, but.
Have you found someone for each decade?
As I said, I've done seven of the 12 so far, so I've got a
couple more. I think I've filmed 6 decades a
month to seven and I have three more decades to cover so.
(09:37):
Wow. That is, that is a project now,
having worked an entire lifetimeas an attorney structuring
deals, doing deals on all sides,representing talents,
representing I'd guess you wouldsay the studios.
(09:59):
How was it to take a film and then go get it?
You know, go to award ceremoniesand or and try to get it
disseminated and all that. What was that experience from
your perspective? I think it was.
I had a little bit of knowledge as to that process, but much
like the filming itself, I started and didn't know what I
(10:22):
was doing. I think where the legal skills
kicked in was during the editingprocess.
As a lawyer, I'm a natural editor and so I think what a lot
of film makers probably linger on their films and think that
they need every scene. It was easier for me to say
that's already been covered. I remember a different
(10:45):
interview. We said it better and able to
kind of cut or we don't need thenext sentence.
That's just filler. And so I think from the Gecko is
able to work with the editor so that it was a tighter right away
then. I don't know.
I mean, I remember the first Film Festival that I went to
(11:08):
with the 90s Club was the Santa Barbara International Film
Festival, which is a very well regarded festival and it takes
place about a week or a month orso before the Oscar ceremony.
And so they have a lot of eventswith high level people that
(11:28):
attend that festival and that. So it was a great honor to be
there. And I couldn't believe a movie
that I did. You know, my first film is at
this Film Festival and is getting to play for an audience.
And then, you know, went on to play in 20 some festivals and,
you know, then to find out at a couple of them what I won the
(11:48):
prize for. That's documentary.
Yeah. Super cool.
Super cool. Never, never expected that, you
know, type of, you know, that kind of honor.
And then when it happens again, then it does build up a little
bit of exercation and. Pressure.
And then you get noticed, oh, you've not been accepted for a
(12:10):
festival or you've been rejected.
And it's like, what? I won the last one.
This place doesn't even want to include my film.
But, you know, those festivals are, you know, carefully
curated. I think people are trying to,
you know, achieve different tones and you.
I mean, there's so much competition, so many great films
(12:31):
out there. When you go to the festival,
it's easy to understand why you might not be accepted.
Yeah. You know you have dealt with
competition your whole life. Entertainment is an area that.
I always say law is my sport. Yeah, and entertainment law.
I mean, there's a lot of people who want to work in that field,
(12:53):
yet you are a force of nature init, highly recognized by your
peers and clients on all sides. What do you how how do you have
did you become this gladiator inthis field?
What was your? What would you say as your?
I think endurance there's. A lot to be.
(13:15):
Said for endurance. I originally went to law school
to I went to Georgetown. I wanted to pursue a career in
international trade. I didn't even really know what
that was, but I know I liked theworld and I liked the word
international. So I signed up and I went to
(13:36):
went to Georgetown and for the first year I worked at the front
French Embassy. I took trade classes, even
international trade was competitive to get into that
area. It sounds very glamorous and
that and during a summer position, I worked with a
practice group that did that type of work.
And it wasn't quite what I expected.
(13:57):
It was a lot of document review and those who did travel would
go to some interesting places like Thailand or Brazil to
evaluate anti dumping or counterfeiting type of cases.
But I just heard that they stayed in warehouses reviewing
boxes and a lot of it was economics and evaluating those
(14:18):
type of things. That at that same time, my
second year of law school, I took the only entertainment
course that was available at Georgetown by really great
professor who's passed away, Professor Gordon.
And he had a lot of speakers come in and speak to the class
about their careers, which all sounded fascinating.
(14:39):
It was the same class that you had to write a seminar paper
for. And I chose to wrote about write
about the Twilight Zone movie which had Victoria Morrow and
two young children who were all killed on this said of the
Twilight Zone when a helicopter.Actually.
Happened so I wrote about a comparison piece between
(15:02):
California law and New York law about engaging minors in
production. So the Coogan laws that protect
your, the money that is earned by children in establishment of
trust accounts, the work hours and schooling requirements and
that and it got published out inCalifornia.
(15:25):
So the late 80s there was a lot of competition for talent coming
out of law school. And I was able to turn one of my
offers into an opportunity to split my time doing
entertainment litigation and entertainment transactional
work. So I was fortunate to be able to
start right into entertainment. Did did?
(15:46):
Did you find you had a preference over?
Immediately. Transaction versus.
Litigation transactional. Do those transactions often end
up litigational? I think it's nice that you have
both. I think the litigators would
wish that the deals would turn into more litigation, but I
mean, my goal is to make sure that that does.
Doesn't happen. That doesn't happen.
(16:07):
Yeah, I like the pace and the movement of the transactional
work as opposed to, you know, litigation can drag out for for
years. It may take a decade for a movie
to get launched from when you started working on it, but the
components of it, of attaching awriter or attaching a director,
(16:30):
those things happen relatively quickly.
So when you're doing transactional work in
entertainment, it could be can can you walk us through what
that might look like? The bulk of my work tends to be,
you know, on behalf of a streamer, a studio, a network.
So typically they have in house lawyers and business affairs
(16:54):
executives who along with the production executives, you know,
first the production executives or the creatives will select the
cast that they want. Then someone in business affairs
will go out and try to strike the deal with that particular
actor, director and for a lot ofthe situations I don't get
(17:16):
involved until that deal's been cut.
And then it comes to me for paper and negotiating out on the
long form. When I've worked on independent
films or for international production companies, then I
play the role of business affairs as well.
And I will reach out and negotiate with the agents on
behalf of the company and say, well, we would like Nicole
(17:39):
Kidman for this movie. And they'll tell you this is
what her last quote was, that she will say, oh, that's that's
the same as the budget of this little independent film.
Would she do it for way, way less And then when somebody
works for a lot less compensation that they would
(18:00):
then they would ordinarily get or their quote.
You have to find incentives and ways where in the success of the
film they can continue to participate in its success,
whether that's bonuses based on the box office of the movie
either domestically or worldwideor a participation in the kind
(18:23):
of that you'd like to say the back end, the participation once
the investors have recouped. And then there may be with the
streamers that may be depending on how how well the production
is doing on the streaming service, there might be another,
another bonus or if it gets an Academy Award or Golden Globe
(18:46):
nomination, there could be some additional bonuses there.
So. Oh my gosh, your answer
triggered so many questions. I'm trying to track them all in
my mind. One is you kind of bought me
around to the opening question of this How would you define who
holds the power in Hollywood? How?
How is that power shift based onsomeone's career along the way?
(19:08):
Like is it the studio or does anactor you know, get to a level
where they have more power than the studio?
Like how does? How would you define that?
I think, and again, even though I'm most typically not on the
talent side, I'd say the talent tends to have more leverage
generally and that it's surprising.
(19:31):
It may not even be somebody who is a A level *.
I think once a director and a casting director and the actual
director of the film and the creative at the studio or the
streamer has somebody in mind for a role, you know, unless
(19:53):
they're really so far out of theparameters in terms of, you
know, the budget for the movie, people are really set on that
person. Even if it's the 6th lead, you
know, it's the, it's, you know, it's going to be Brad Pitt's
neighbor in the movie. Once people start envisioning
who that is, they want that person.
(20:15):
Interesting. Yes, there could be 6-12 other
people that could be Brad Pitt'sneighbor in the movie, but
everybody's kind of set on that person.
So again, unless they really areexpecting twice as much as is,
you know, budgeted for that particular role, I think, yeah,
(20:37):
that's who everybody wants. Open Do you think that decision
making process is like, let's say if someone's a new talent
and they're trying to make theirway in, but they haven't been
seen in that many things? So yeah, I suppose, you know,
those folks don't have a tremendous amount of leverage in
(21:00):
terms of maybe negotiating for some additional perks or a
significant back end participation, if at all.
I think that's part of a, A builds over the course of their
career, maybe an actor and have 0 participation and then after a
few roles, maybe you can get 2 1/2% of net profits.
(21:24):
Very, very, very unlikely you will ever see anything based on
that. But then the next one it's,
you're getting 5% of next net profits.
And then, you know, if you buildthis over the course of the
career to 10% of net profits, oh, now it's not net profits,
it's a, it's a bit sooner in thewaterfall.
(21:45):
You know, it's adjusted gross proceeds.
Isn't that the joke in the business?
The net profits? Profits because there's all the
expenses that get. Well, I think, you know, net
profits is a, is a formula ever.It's not necessarily tied to
actual account. I think people try to think of
it in terms of accounting principles that would apply to a
(22:06):
different business. It doesn't seem to make sense.
But if you look at it more as a formula, you know, the studio's
going to take a distribution fee, they're going to take their
distribution expenses and marketing.
And there's some, you know, overhead on that marketing.
And then there's interest because this money and he's been
out of pocket for quite some time.
(22:26):
And then they need to recoup allof the other third party
expenses for all the others. And so it does take quite a long
time to get to the notion of netprofits.
People see the big numbers at the box office that a movie made
a billion dollars. But you know, to get to that
billion dollars, there's the significant cost of the movie.
(22:47):
As much as it cost to make a movie, it usually spent cost
that much to market the movie aswell.
You've seen so many changes overyour career and those changes
seem to be accelerating, like just the shift from, you know,
the length of time movies went to a box office to the whole
(23:09):
streaming industry. Now what are?
What are your observations with that and how this is all
shifting and changing? Yeah, I think, I mean the
pandemic expedited things there too, right?
Because there weren't theaters to go to and there were certain
movies that were already made and just sitting on the shelf
(23:29):
and people at home had an appetite for things.
So certain movies shifted and went immediately to streaming or
to electronic sell through. You could buy the movie instead
of going to the to the movie. You know, the the box office has
taken some time to kind of recover from that.
And some could say it's not quite recovered, but certain,
(23:53):
you know, certain films are having massive success and
people only want to see them in a in a movie theater.
And I don't see that going goingaway.
But yeah, the the window from when something is in a theater
to when it's available, you know, on a pay-per-view type of
(24:13):
basis is, is pretty short, rightNowadays, yeah.
How does it work when things like, you know, Superman for, I
mean, I grew up on Superman and obviously that was a different
Clark Kent than the 10 we've seen.
How does it work when a movie revives a theme and a character
like that? I mean, there's a couple of
(24:36):
different ways to go. Some are very reverential,
right? And trying to get to the same
place and some of the reboots goa completely different
direction, right? I mean.
Frank Miller worked on with Batman and The Dark Knight, you
know. Yeah, either in terms of right,
something in terms of tone shifts completely, or, you know,
(24:59):
a male protagonist becomes a female in this one.
I grew up watching One Day at a Time and Norman Lear series
years ago. And then about five years ago it
relaunched again. Still Norman Lear was still
alive and it was launched with a, with a Cuban American family
(25:22):
portraying the family. So it was a, you know, a
different take on it entirely. You know what's funny with
things like that? You just raised an interesting
thought. You know, if it's a family
situation and the theme is one day at a time, you could imagine
a Cuban family versus a, you know, a white Caucasian family,
let's say, like me, although that's a pretty broad
(25:45):
generalization for a white Caucasian, you know, where
anything you could say each family has a different
structure. The one that always blows me
away is, OK, let's take James Bond.
Why couldn't they call the next character Double O 8 or Double O
9, like shaking James Bond and changing who was James Bond,
(26:08):
which was this a guy in a periodof time when sexiness was just
sexiness and, you know, and he got the woman and he, you know,
whatever. It's kind of like we knew that
was his character. That was how he was done to
modify James Bond as a differentcharacter.
I'm like, it's just not James Bond anymore.
(26:28):
Call him somebody else. Keep the theme.
Let him keep working for the same organization, but modernize
the theme. What do you think about that?
It's an interesting trend. Well, I am working with Amazon,
MGM on, you know, the Bond project.
Everything is, you know, very, very confidential.
(26:51):
But I think there's a tremendousamount of excitement about, you
know, where Bond will be, where Bond will be going.
And they announced the director for the next Bond film, Danny
Villanuev, who had done the Dunefilms.
And so I, I think, you know, thebuzz out there in terms of
(27:12):
that's who the next director is going to be.
That's going to be very cool, you know, and I have no idea who
the new bond will be. So it'll be, you know, but I
think, I think it, you know, it's exciting to see where,
where it'll go. Oh.
That's very interesting. Yeah.
Because kind of like when DanielCraig died, I'm like, OK, James,
(27:35):
no more James Bond. It's going to be some other
number now, but the same kind oftheme.
Yeah. This is going to be very
interesting to see how that unfolds.
I didn't realize you were working on that.
Didn't want to put you on the spot there, Robert.
Well, fortunately I I don't knowany of the secrets.
Yet so you you besides the pandemic, having people stay at
(28:02):
home that that huge shift with big names moving to not just ATV
show, but the series, you know, Billy Bob Thornton and Landman
or you know, any, any of the series.
Nicole Kidman and everything. Exactly.
It's like all of a sudden it, I mean, Helen Mirren in, you know,
(28:24):
from all the things she did in the Yellowstone series to then
doing Mobland and like. Yeah, you see Harrison Ford and
shrinking and also in the Yellowstone universe.
And I mean, the money is quite good.
That's what I was. Wondering what's that money like
compared to doing a film? Or like why?
(28:45):
What's causing that huge attraction?
Well, I, I think, you know, there's fewer feature films
being made and so there are, youknow, fewer opportunities there.
A lot of the films that you know, that are being made fall
into the category of being a franchise.
(29:06):
So if you weren't in the first or the second, you're not going
to get in the 3rd or the 4th maybe, except as an, you know,
an ancillary new character. And that.
So, you know, the pool of opportunities to work in, you
know, theatrical motion picturesis smaller.
There's still, you know, still indie films out there, but, you
know, they don't pay very well at all.
(29:28):
And the trouble with doing an indie film is you're not sure
it's ever going to find distribution.
Yeah. You know, there's a lot of great
films that play Sundance, Tribeca and audiences like them,
but you know, a major studio won't pick them up or a small
(29:50):
independent distributor won't pick them up in part because it,
as we talked about before, it's very expensive to market a film.
And so unless it's got a built in audience like Barbie,
Barbie's an original film. You know, it there'd never been
a Barbie movie before. But everybody knows Barbie,
(30:10):
right? You know, there will be a Hot
Wheels movie and everybody you know, knows Hot Wheels.
So you've got some built in pre-existing IP there that
people can focus on. But trying to launch a
completely unknown title? Sell the story, even if it's got
some recognizable cast, it has to breakthrough all that other
(30:33):
noise and competition for people's eyeballs.
And what does that distribution look like now?
Like if you create an independent film today, are you
hoping to get into a theater? Do you need to get into a
theater? Do you need to then get to
festivals or things like that? Or people hoping they can go
straight to a streaming service?Like what's that process like
(30:54):
now? How has it changed?
Some how. Was it the same?
Because I don't even know what it was there's.
There's 2 routes to go. Some will try to shop their
package before the film is made.Take it to the natural buying
sources for that film. Who would Who would be natural?
Buying sources, I don't it woulddepend on the budget of of the
(31:17):
film, but you know, you might think, oh, I'm going to take
that to Amazon, or I mean, take that to Netflix.
The, you know, streamers have bought so much over the past few
years, but if they happen to pass on it, you know it's not
going to be picked up by Disney or Paramount again.
They've got their own slate. They, you know, they'll keep
their eyes open for some gems, but there's not many slots
(31:40):
there. But you still want to make your
movie, maybe adjust the budget. You find somebody who supports
it. You, you know, find the
financing. You pre sell some certain
territories around the world andyou make your movie.
Now you have to still sell. It was the movie that everyone
passed on at the script stage, but now there's something for
(32:00):
them to see and hopefully some festival recognition will
bolster the likelihood that it'll be sold.
You know, people see it and, andI think it's everybody's initial
dream and goal who's involved with the film, that it goes to
theaters, although that may not necessarily be the most
(32:21):
profitable route. Again, goes to theaters right
away. It's going to take a while to
recoup that. The money that they advanced for
the movie, then they've got to recoup all that marketing.
Another way to do it is to kind of create some sort of word of
mouth, some sort of smaller marketing campaign, make it
(32:41):
available, you know, on a pay-per-view or electronic sell
through basis. If it can find that audience
where people will then, you know, purchase it and more of
the money will go more immediately back to the to the
financiers and the producers. You know, when you were talking,
I wonder, I go back to 2003 where everyone before that 2000
(33:09):
where everyone I would meet would say, well, I have a.com
company and Coca-Cola is going to be my sponsor or Pepsi is
going to be my sponsor. Everyone had it.
The biggest companies in the world, we're going to sponsor
their idea. And, you know, these companies
were getting funded and it was crazy and it led to the.com bust
in 2003. But when I think of Movies Now,
what is the competition? Are more people making movies
(33:35):
because there are so many more streamers and outlets and cable
channels? How's that balanced these days?
Is is there enough content for the outlets or is there too much
content for the outlets in what you've observed?
There's the past few years therewas a big content boom.
Uh huh. And, you know, new platforms
(33:59):
were launching. They all needed content.
Maybe they didn't yet have theirown internal development slates
ready. You know, there was interruption
from the strikes, the pandemic. So they were in a buying mode.
I think a couple things happened.
(34:19):
You know, Wall Street really focused in on the profitability
of these streaming services, whether it was an independent
one or one related to a studio. And, you know, it became
important. Are they increasing their
subscribers? Are the shows, you know, is
(34:40):
there an afterlife for the show?Because a lot of times the
streamers weren't selling their shows afterward to third
parties. Some of that is happening now.
So I think the streamers have all taken a look at things and
want their shows to have a smarter budget.
(35:02):
So I think they're, you know, there's been a tightening up on
the the amount that's being ordered at the at the moment.
But you know, at the same time, seems as I mean, the world is
huge. There are a lot of very, very
wealthy people out there who want to perhaps get into film,
(35:27):
be an executive producer on something, or have a passion
about a particular cause or theme.
Interesting. And so maybe it's something
that, you know, they want to support, something that will
promote the environment, you know, or, or there's it seems to
(35:50):
be a number of people who will want to invest in films that
cater to a religious audience, you know, something that's close
or personal to them. It's, you know, if there was, if
you could have a list of the billionaires or the, you know,
the mega millionaires and you know, they all, you know, who do
(36:11):
I go to that would invest in this film?
And, you know, doesn't particularly care if it makes
money or not. It'd be great to have that, that
list. But so I think, you know, over
time some, you know, you'll see people find these people through
friends of friends and for smaller of smaller independent
(36:32):
productions, if it's not a particularly large budget, you
know, people have been very successful at crowdfunding.
You know, if they have a little bit of history, they're able to
film something that looks like atrailer that to get people
excited and go out there and they have a lot of friends and
family and then kind of can build some buzz from there.
(36:54):
You know, maybe if they can do their movie for 100,200 thousand
dollars. Are those like reggae's of some
form a crowdfunding for a movie?How is that just a crowdfunding
where you get tickets when it comes out or a T-shirt?
Yeah, something like that or youknow, information flow or you
(37:14):
know, ultimately maybe you know,refunded if the money if the
movie makes a particular level. But yeah, they're not going
through an SCC blue sky process or anything like that.
So it is, yeah, it is a high risk investment.
Yeah, but you get to say you helped produce a film that's.
Right, people like that and it's.
(37:36):
Kind of like owning a boat of vine and.
You can set up different, you know, different tiers.
I mean, I would, you know, take your $100, I'll take your $500.
Somebody gives me 5000, OK? They're an associate producer,
you know, and can buy your way into that.
You know another shift you've been seeing the last writers and
writers and actors strikes we'reheavily surrounded with AI.
(38:04):
What are you what are you seeingfrom your seat in the the
different sides of how everyone's perceiving the impact
of AI on the film industry I. Think.
Or entertainment in general. I think lawyers we need a union
to AI is coming well for you. Know for everything, yes, for, I
(38:24):
mean, I can't believe it. I've seen the difference in PR,
I've seen the difference in, I mean basically every industry.
Yeah, I don't think. Anything's going to.
Approach. How somebody thinks that's, you
know, and their personality thatthey bring to whatever the
situation is, but. But I I think rather than being
afraid of it coming, I mean it is coming.
(38:47):
The genie's out of that bottle. Better is to find ways to
embrace it to make whatever you're doing, you know, kind of,
you know, more efficient. And for law, and we'll talk a
little bit about those other areas too, but for all for law,
instead of needing someone to take, you know, a box of
(39:08):
documents and go research through that, which would take,
you know, 3-4 days to read everyline, you can't get that scanned
in you. It'll kick out a summary almost
instantaneously. Now that summary not, is not
something that at this point I would ask anybody to officially
(39:30):
rely on. But instead of needing that four
days to go through that box, younow have a summary in a road map
of exactly where to go where youwant to see.
Okay, now I'm going to look at this language, you know, I'm
going to ask it some some specific questions and prompts
and you know, and becoming more sophisticated in terms of how to
(39:51):
use it and to prompt it. So it is more valuable to, you
know, I think and the Actors Guild focused very much on on AI
in terms of digital replicas, you know, protecting actors.
Jobs also for, you know, for crowd scenes, you know, that's
(40:14):
been in place for for quite sometime where there were, you know,
computer generated crowds, you know, preserving ways where your
performance in one particular movie can then not be used in a
next one without there being some additional compensation.
Coming back to the you know, to the actor, I mean the concern
(40:38):
with writers and AII mean from the studios.
There's often a clause in the writer contract that says, you
know, you writer represented Warren to me, that you did not
use AI in connection with creative.
Interesting. Because for the moment and the
you know the copyright the copyright law is on well it
(41:01):
hasn't been determined as of yet.
AIS contribution is not copyright protectable takes a
human to create a copyright. So if you're going to spend $100
million to make a movie and it'sbased on something that AI
created and you don't have copyright protection in it, well
(41:23):
then there's no ability to enforce others from infringing
upon that or taking that. So there is value, tremendous
value in having an original creation.
That is a really fascinating concept.
It reminds years. For quite a while we
represented. I worked with Avalon Ventures
(41:43):
and one of the partners, Rich Levandov, always used to say
technology precedes the law. You know, there will be things
that technology will do that will find ways to do things or
something will happen and then the law will have to catch up to
figure out how are we going to regulate this or what are we
going to say. In entertainment, surprisingly,
(42:04):
it was oftentimes the porn industry, oh that was pushing
the envelope whether it was. Absolutely. 1st Amendment or
other, you know, DVD's. Yeah.
Video 8. 100 numbers, yes, you know that's where it started.
My first one, 800 bucks when I'mlike, I want to learn about how
to have a you know, or you know,a 1900 number like every example
(42:25):
was the board industry. I'm like.
Yeah, the cut the cutting edge of a lot.
But yeah, I mean, see, we'll seewhere it goes.
But I think, you know, it's, it's best if you kind of not
push it aside, but kind of embrace how can this help me in,
(42:47):
in my practice. But again, for, you know, I have
a lot of young lawyers on my team and we do talk kind of
weekly about, you know, the coming of AI and how it can save
tremendous amount of billable hours, which could mean a reduce
in reduction in in the workforceover time or fewer opportunities
(43:09):
for new lawyers to come in to. I want each of them now thinking
about what is my value add, you know, how am I different or
better than AI? And certainly it's having that
personal connection. And then it's perhaps I mean,
(43:29):
we've never as a law firm, you know, LED with, you know, we're
the broker for you, you know, we're we're your lawyer.
We're going to take care of the paperwork.
Of course, we've made introductions on different deals
like, oh, somebody's looking forthis, You should talk to them.
I heard this person, you know, might want something like your
project go have a conversation. But I think doing something
(43:53):
doing, stepping that up, being, you know, a gateway or an access
to other companies and to other people will become more
important. It's something you know that AI
wouldn't be doing for you, but you know, but through your own
relationships and, you know, being able to vouch for your
clients will become valuable. So establishing those personal
(44:19):
connections with decision makersI think is on top of the legal
skills, something that'll be necessary for.
So can I kind of put you on the spot?
I want to give you a chance to brag about yourself in a way.
Because if let's say your your team is sitting around you and
you said, listen, team, you know, we want to keep being the
(44:42):
top entertainment team in Hollywood, which basically means
the world if you're working in entertainment, in my opinion.
OK, So if we want to keep being the top Entertainment Group in
the world, you have to know yourvalue add.
What's Robert Darwell's value add?
There's a reason you get all these accolades from the
(45:04):
industry, from your peers, from people who work in entertainment
at the highest levels. So I want to give you a bragging
rights right now. And I don't want you to be
humble. What's what would you say to
your team? Pretend we're talking.
About this, this isn't, this isn't me being humble, OK, but I
(45:24):
I think, OK, what? Am I mean I could come up with a
bunch and tell you what. I think what am I, you would
know more. My greatest strengths over the
years is that I've been really good at selecting people to work
with me, and it's probably the one thing that I'm most proud of
too. Even people that have left me
(45:47):
through the years have gone on to achieve such great success
than heads of legal departments at the, you know, at the studios
work at other firms and you know, became partner and top
attorneys at other places. And the current team probably
(46:08):
has been with me the longest andthe most consistent Think
through the pandemic. We got very close.
I think it was the first time westarted, you know, bi weekly or
twice a week meetings and reallygetting to know each other so
that friends are there. So I do feel like I have a
particular eye for hiring people.
(46:30):
Right now on the team, we're about 26.
On my individual team, we cover 12 languages.
Oh my gosh. So I always, you know, at one
time I had a requirement that you had to have a second
language in order to work on my team, mostly because it cut the
resume staff down. But you know, that's opened up a
(46:52):
tremendous amount of business for us throughout Latin America.
Two people on the team are from Colombia, one is from Brazil.
Woman that most recently joined was practicing at a top firm in
Beirut. I think the attorney I heard
before that was from China and then received his LLM at UCLA.
(47:17):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, so an.
Interesting way of thinking and creating.
And I think that, yeah, I think that has helped us kind of on a
global market. We don't always have to send
something out to somebody else because it's in French and
someone there on the team can read it or look at it in Italian
in real time, in real time. So we don't lose that or I don't
(47:43):
know, recently there was a around the holiday time last
year, Polish Music Company came in and they were looking for
lawyers in LA and they've been recommended to me.
Well, one of the longtime assistants in the office who is
not a practicing attorney, but she's originally from Poland.
I had her come in and sit in themeeting and just, you know,
(48:04):
speak with them and join. And, you know, they thought, oh,
are you going to do the work? And it's, she's like, oh, no,
I'm not a lawyer. I think, you know, that helped
establish those connections. I think it's also benefited me
personally to work with such a kind of motivated
entrepreneurial team because it keeps me energized, you know,
(48:27):
in. Kind of.
It's great to see people learn around you.
I definitely learn from them every day, whether it's
something new on the system, youknow, or kind of the different
AI platforms that we are using. You know, I could sit in a
(48:48):
lecture from, you know, some IT person at the firm or I can get
it, the practical knowledge of it by working with one of the
people on my team who is using it.
It's like great, sorry, I don't know.
I think having that, that I and going with my instinct on, on
people, a lot of people look terrific on paper.
(49:11):
Great. Law school, college and and even
before it was a thing, I always liked the 360 interview.
I'd like when they would get to me, I'd say, oh, let's walk out
and get a yogurt. Or it used to be when there were
record stores, let's go to the record store, you know, and you
get them out of the office and talk about what was the last
(49:33):
concert you went to? Yeah.
Where did you travel last? You know the non legal questions
And you'd start to get a sense of their personality and how it
would be like to actually work with them on a day in and day
out basis. Immediately.
Even if somebody is great, if they have something negative to
(49:55):
say about their current employer, that like extremely
unlikely I would ever go furtherin the process with that person.
What would that trigger in you? I think they're going to come
(50:15):
here and it will be the same thing or even even worse, you
know, in terms of, yeah, we work, you know, work very hard,
you know, quirky personality. I don't want to hear them speak.
I'll of, you know, their currentcolleagues or their current
supervisor. It's just right the the wrong
messaging for for an interview. You know, it's interesting.
(50:38):
Unfortunately, we're getting tight on time, but you kind of
bought me full circle to your daily server Instagram account
that you keep, because what I love about that is it really
shows that you're, you honor people in an interesting way,
(51:00):
which if I was going to describeyou, I would, you know, that
would be one of the things I would say to if I was Robert
Darwell addressing my team aboutyour value add, I'd say, listen,
you know the law, if you've got multiple languages, you know,
(51:21):
bring your bring those people skills that you excel at.
I mean, that's just an exceptional quality that it's
just exceptional. Why they?
Really have that. It's the service component too.
I mean, law is a profession, butyou have to to deliver on this
(51:44):
service. And I mean, that does sometimes
come with tremendous sacrifice. Everybody wants things now.
Yesterday. Yeah, you're right, It's over.
It's now is late. Yes, it's overdue from the
minute that it's been been givento you.
And I know the first question when I give somebody an
assignment is, oh, when is, you know, what's the due date?
It's like, you know, the due date.
(52:08):
And if we ask the client, I mean, it's always ASAP.
You know, I, there are some really great clients who will
say, you know, I don't need thisfor a week.
And that's, you know, that's good.
But. My weeks are four days.
That's right. I know.
You know, it's keeping clients informed even when there is no
progress. Yeah, a lot of times we're
(52:30):
following up with the other side.
Show them that you've been following up.
Make them feel that you are taking care of them.
You have to take ownership of your project.
Think about not just what they've given you, but what they
haven't given you or told you. Not to try to generate
additional work in that, but just to take care of them.
(52:52):
Hey, you asked me to do this contract and there's a reference
to something else. Is that documented or that
person's bringing on as an assistant?
Do you have a piece of paper with that person?
You know, keep asking the questions, get to know the
project. And yeah, encourage everybody to
not only go to lunch with your client, but go to a lunch with
(53:14):
opposing counsel, Get to know them.
You're going to see them again. That'll increase efficiencies
hopefully in negotiations down the road to know that person,
develop that level of trust. You know, I mean, entertainment
law is, you know, there's a number of people who are kind of
(53:37):
questionable reputations, you know, you know, make sure you're
not one of them. Make sure that you can be
counted on and you know what you're saying is accurate and
true. And if you don't know the
answer, say you don't know the answer.
You know, I was just going to ask you in closing statement,
what would be your advice? And it's kind of tough to top
that one, you know, if you don'tknow the answer, say you don't
(53:59):
know the answer. Wow.
What else would you say to someone?
I'm that you're also, if we don't know the answer, I take AI
take a quick pause and say, you know what, we'll get back to you
after lunch or you know, the phones ringing, I'll be right.
I'll be back to you in two hours.
And then I make sure I go and learn that answer right during
that period of time so that I can't call back.
(54:20):
And so I do rarely say don't know the answer.
It'll be more I need to get backto you and then get back to them
super quickly with the actual answer, yeah.
I want to thank you so much for joining me.
This went too fast, like I knew it would.
Well, you made it very easy. Nice talking with you and thank
you for the the great questions.Thank you.
(54:42):
I have been speaking with RobertDarwell who you can find at
Shepherd Mullen. I highly recommend you do check
him out. His info for the firm.
His bio will be below. And it's such a pleasure
speaking with you. You're so knowledgeable.
You're you're so personable. Thank you, Robert.
(55:02):
OK. Thank you.
Diane, I'm Diane Grisell. This has been the Silver
Disobedience Perception Dynamicspodcast, and we're in iconic
Manhattan Center. We're in TV 2 right now.
It's a really cool place. A lot of great things happened
here and I'm grateful that they let me happen here along with
Robert. Thank you.
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