December 5, 2025 • 51 mins
Unlocking the Secrets of Invisible Wounds: In-Depth Conversation with Michaela Johnson, Ph.D.
Michaela Johnson is the author of 7 Primal Wounds. In this @SilverDisobedience episode, host Dian Griesel and Michaela discuss her new book, which delves into the concept of primal wounds and how they impact our relationships, self-worth, and decision-making. They explore Michaela's unique background, her journey on a self-piloted book tour, and the seven core primal wounds identified through her research. Michaela also shares insights on how to turn these wounds into superpowers, the significance of understanding primal responses, and practical tools for healing and relationship building. Join them for a deep and enlightening conversation that offers a roadmap for personal growth and improved relationships.
More here: http://www.skytalkdoc.com/
Please SUBSCRIBE!
I’m Dian Griesel and in November of 2017 I began blogging as @SilverDisobedience on my website and @SilverDisobedience on Instagram Facebook and @DianGriesel X Career-wise, I am a perception analyst, counselor, hypnotherapist, author of 16 books and a Wilhelmina model.
For 30 years, via owning an investor & public relations firm, while being in private practice, I have helped my clients to achieve greater understanding as to how perceptions impact everything we do whether personally or professionally. A couple of years ago I added a podcast. Episodes are unscripted, with plenty of no-holds-barred revelations from fascinating, accomplished guests living diverse lives. Intimate stories about work, play, psychology, relationships, pop culture, trends, B.S. + more are unpacked through thought-provoking questions that spark honest revelations, pivotal moments, and unguarded insights — stunning even the boldest guests with their own “aha” truths. ✨
🔗 YouTube Channel Spotify i❤️podcasts 🍎podcasts
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/diangriesel/
This episode was recorded in collaboration with The Manhattan Center, New York City, New York
Show Run:
00:00 Introduction to Invisible Wounds
00:28 Meet Michaela Johnson: Author and Pilot
01:06 Growing Up Off the Grid
02:30 The Concept of Primal Wounds
04:50 Identifying and Understanding Primal Wounds
08:15 Primal Wounds in Relationships
14:17 Tools for Healing Primal Wounds
15:46 The Role of Different Responders
17:13 Activation and Its Impact
20:24 Narcissism and Primal Wounds
27:39 The Power of Pausing
28:46 Emotional Maturity and Self-Worth
29:39 Turning Wounds into Superpowers
31:12 Personal Stories and Insights
34:03 Understanding Primal Responders
35:00 Effective Communication Strategies
37:02 The Importance of Self-Reflection
48:39 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Do invisible wounds shape our relationship, our self worth,
maybe even our decision making and other things as well?
Well, I have some thoughts on that and so does my next guest.
She's the author of a new book called 7 Primal Wounds and we're
(00:22):
going to be discussing what those wounds are and how they
impact us. Please say hello to Michaela
Johnson who flew in. Yes, piloted in.
Maybe more accurately I should say, because she is on a self
piloted book tour for this new book.
Welcome. Thank you so much for having me,
(00:43):
Diane. I'm very excited to be here and
it was quite the adventure to get here, so I'm glad it all
worked out. How many how many places are you
going on this book tour, just out of curiosity?
We have about 35 stops, so in total, well, 35 states, it's a
lot more stops than that and we've already come about 3600
nautical miles. So it's been quite the journey.
(01:03):
Oh my gosh, now you're a pilot. I'm a pilot, You're a.
Pilot and you had a very unusualupbringing and I'd like to look
at that a minute before we get into your.
Book. Yeah, absolutely.
You grew up off the grid. Yes, in Desolation Wilderness
and a 27 foot fifth wheel, no running water and no
electricity. We literally had a porta potty
in the yard. And so at the time I did not
(01:26):
appreciate that upbringing. And it was well before hashtag
Van. Life was very cool.
And so, you know, I was shaving my legs and I smelt creaks and
things like that. My parents cringe hearing this
story. They're like, no, that never
happened. You're fine.
But in hindsight, I really learned a lot about resiliency
and grit and kind of how to showup gracefully even when things
(01:47):
are really tough. You know, that's, that's a great
point you just made. I always like to remind people
when they talk about their youthand all the things that they
think were so horrible. I mean, I, I did not grow up off
the grid, but we weren't allowedto watch television.
But the flip side of that is I became an avid reader.
Right. So there's always a, I don't
(02:10):
like to go in just dualities, but they're always benefits of
whatever if you choose to find them.
Yeah, it's making lemonade out of lemons, right?
And sometimes you just have to toss the whole batch out and go
find some new fruit. But that's OK, too.
Yeah. Or add more sugar, right?
Or a little. Bit more sugar.
OK, so 7 primal wounds, Yeah, that's such an interesting topic
(02:34):
because the first time when I first read that, I thought 7
deadly sins, right? And I'm thinking, oh, primal
wounds, where'd you come up withthis?
And what's your theory as to howwe develop primal wounds?
Well, I started seeing patterns in the work I was doing with
couples, so I started to notice every time they were fighting,
there was a theme underneath. And I, I did grow up watching
(02:58):
Sesame Street on occasion when we had power and electricity.
And you know, there's that you're looking for the one kid
that's doing something different.
And I started to see these patterns playing out in
relationships. And I was very fascinated by it
because it was almost like the scene from Charlie Brown where
the parents, you hear them talking going wah, wah, wah,
wah. And it doesn't really matter
(03:19):
what they're saying because underneath it, everything was
the same. And there were these patterns
emerging. And I, I started to just get
really curious. I was like, wait, slow that
down. What was underneath that?
Peel back that layer for me, strip that onion back a little
bit. What's in the And I kept probing
my clients to go deeper and deeper and deeper.
And they were all, well, I don'tknow, hold on, let me think
(03:40):
about that. And, and once they started to
dive down as well, when she saysthat, I just feel like I'm not
good enough. There it is.
OK, It's not good enough. And then I started to see these
themes emerge. And there were about seven of
them. Actually, there were 10 when I
started. But part of my doctoral research
was really to pare it back and get very specific.
(04:01):
And I just realized that there are these core beliefs and they
start in childhood. So it doesn't mean you had
terrible parents. It's like, quite the contrary.
It can be something very simple.So for example, a powerless
wounder might have grown up in afamily system where they had a
sibling that was ill and they couldn't help their sibling and
they felt powerless. And then as a teenager, it
(04:24):
becomes, well, I'm never going to be powerful.
I'm never going to be empowered over my life.
And then as an adult, we paradoxically pick people and
situations that actually affirm the narrative.
So we invite someone into our life that will remind us every
day that we are not empowered over our relationship or our
situation because it's paradoxically comfortable to us.
(04:45):
We learned how to live with thatnarrative.
And so then we carry it throughout our entire life.
Now, one thing that I find really fascinating, the people
that have the incapable primal wound, which is like the
unintelligent and not smart enough.
They're like, hold my beer, watch how smart I am, and they
will go start corporations that make billions of dollars.
(05:06):
So there are ways that you can actually take the primal wound
or the core belief and you can turn it into a superpower.
And that's exactly what the book's about.
That's very interesting. How does someone identify their
primal wounds? Well, you think when they read
your book something pops out andthey say, oh, this is me. 100%
(05:26):
So what I started to identify first was that I could really
figure out the primal wound by listening to the language that
they were using when they were complaining and griping.
And my partner does this and then this happens.
And I said, well what? What do you usually fight?
Well, we start to fight about blah blah blah.
And I would hear these pre activations playing out like I'm
a disappointment or I'm never chosen or I just can't seem to
(05:51):
get anything right or I'm a failure, you know, etcetera,
etcetera. And as I started to hear the
themes, I was like, oh, there's pre activations that are these
building up moments that lead tothe big activation.
And so I actually have a quiz online that people can take.
It's it's kind of like a Myers Briggs types type quiz.
(06:11):
It's 70 questions and they can go through and it weeds out, you
know, based upon these pre activations and the narrative.
It's the ticker tape that's running through their head, and
then their primal wound comes out at the end.
Yeah. So it's really fascinating.
Now, do you think there are crossovers in personality
traits? I have yet so on the back end I
(06:33):
can see the percentages of all the different wounds and I have
yet to see anybody that has tied.
So there is always a predominantprimal wound.
Although when people hear the seven, they say I have all of
them and we can we can relate toall 7 on some level you.
Know what are the seven? Let's go through them and it's
always, you know, it's always inthe morning time when I'm just
(06:54):
fresh on the coffee that I have to listen.
So here. So here we go.
I'm going to use my fingers. That's OK, I understand.
So it's I am insignificant, I aminadequate, I am damaged, I am
incapable, I am undeserving, I am powerless, and I am an
outsider. Oh, interesting.
Yeah, so the outsider wound, it's the I'm different and don't
(07:17):
belong sometimes. They were the goth kids when
they were in high school. They're the self-proclaimed
introverts, right? They can only people so much
before they can't do any more peopling.
If their friends don't include them on a text message or to go
out to dinner, they are fatally hurt.
I mean, it is like a knife to their chest.
(07:38):
They're going to ghost you for aweek and a half, maybe three
years because you left them out of something.
And so in partnerships, what I'll find is we'll have an
extroverted husband or an extroverted wife, right with the
I am an outsider spouse. And then they'll go to a dinner
party and the extroverted spouseis running around just yapping
(07:58):
it up, gabbing with everybody. And the outsider is just so
upset. Like, how could you leave me
alone in this corner? I know nobody here.
I'm all by myself. I don't fit in.
And then it starts a fight in the car on the way home.
And so these are the ways the primal wounds play out.
If we have a not a not good enough or the inadequate primal
(08:18):
wound, you know, you walk through the door and the wife
says you didn't this, you didn'tthat.
He's already just worked the whole day and he's like
nothing's ever enough for you right now.
You now you want me to do all these things too.
Nothing's ever enough. And we see a lot of
perfectionism in the good enoughprimal wound.
So the incapables are perfectionists as well.
(08:40):
But but what's really fascinating about it is that
they will because they they don't feel smart enough, they
will spend so much time researching before they get
started. So they're often called
procrastinators or lazy. And it's not that they're lazy
at all. It's that they're really just
learning everything there is to learn before they move forward
with any of it. So it's like wife will say to
(09:02):
husband, hey, could you get somenew insurance for the car?
Well, he's got to research everypossible insurance option before
he gets new insurance for the car.
So three weeks go by and she's like, you still don't have, we
still don't have insurance on that new car.
Well, I'm still researching. You're just, you're just lazy.
You just don't want to help me out, right?
And then they're fighting. And so these are the ways in
(09:24):
which the primal wounds engage in our relationships, but they
also happen at work with our boss.
They happen with our kids. They happen in all the big
decisions that we make. I can tell you that some of the
biggest snafus I've made, I didn't trust my judgement.
And that's one of the pre activations for my primal wound
and I kick myself in the butt every time.
So yeah. Do you believe everyone fits
(09:47):
into a one of the seven categories?
Yes, my doctoral research started in Ainsworth and Bulby's
attachment work which is you know about secure base, anxious
avoidance, things like that. And then also is inclusive of
Eric Burns work, which is parts of self transactional analysis,
we call it in psychology. And you know, there's really no
(10:08):
way to go through the world without having what I call a hot
stove moment because we're in relationship the minute we walk
out our front door. And so you know, you have this,
you have this hot stove and you touch it and it burns you and
you have a physical emergency response to it.
And you either learn how to now work with that hot stove.
(10:31):
You know how to be careful and see if it's hot before you touch
it or grab a pan or you never cook on a stove again and you
microwave food from then on out,right.
So, and this is how the primal wounds work.
We have an emotional emergency response.
It's it's a psychological, physiological response in our
limbic system to something that has happened in a relationship.
(10:54):
Now, how do you equate the sevenprimal wounds to how do they act
out in, let's say, victimhood? Well, you can get stuck in those
pre activations that ticker tapeand this is definitely what I
see. So people will like the woe is
(11:14):
me mindset rather than tapping into that grit and resiliency
that we talked about earlier andthey'll stay in that space.
And we have something in psychology called confirmation
bias. So you'll.
My favorite topics. Well, yes, it's a.
It's a it's. I've written about that a lot.
Oh, and love it. Oh yeah, that's right.
(11:35):
Continued influence effect and confirmation bias or two of my.
Absolutely yes, yes. So you, you have the the
knowledge and the back story. So the confirmation bias, you'll
seek it out, right? So you'll look for being a
disappointment, you'll look for being unchosen.
You will look for whatever it isyou're telling yourself you're
powerless or you're undeserving.Undeservers are famous for
(11:56):
starting nonprofits. They will say yes to absolutely
everything so they can feel likethey deserve to be just in the
world really and, and among a group of people or whatever they
yes, I'll do it. Yes, I'll do that.
And then they have resentments, right.
So because they've taken on too much.
And then their narrative, I see this all the time in the, in the
(12:18):
work that I do. Their narrative is well,
everybody just needs something from me.
I just don't have any time for myself.
I'm like, that's what you're convincing yourself because
that's your primal wound. But we can work on that.
We can actually shift the way that you're looking at that and
have help you find more empowerment over your life.
You're a tough cookie. You grew up in a in a in a
(12:42):
environment that forced you to learn resilience.
Where do you think being confrontational fits with
someone who, let's say, falls into one of your 7 primal
categories? Is kind of in that well, this is
just what's happening to me, state of mind.
(13:03):
How do you go about confronting that?
You know, it's, it's fascinatingbecause as I've been doing this
for 15 years and as, and as my career has progressed, I've
really gotten to the point whereI've realized I'm not for
everybody. And I will, I will, I will
blankly say that like, hey, if you're not ready to step out of
that woe is me mindset, I'm probably not the person for you.
And there is definitely a therapist that will love to sit
(13:26):
there with you, but I'm going topoke and prod you a little bit
to come out of that space and elevate your life.
And so I've realized people haveto be ready to go along for that
journey because it's like ripping off a Band-Aid, you
know? And it hurts to look at kind of
the ways that you've kept yourself where you are.
And that that means that I'm notnecessarily the therapist for
(13:49):
everybody because I try to meet people where they're at.
And how much of your work involves back winding, you know,
to try it? I mean, obviously you have to
identify the kind of personalityyou think the person's falling
into versus going forward and more, you know, cognitive.
(14:09):
Let's like give you some tools to work with this so when this
is triggered or that you know pops into your head, you can
move forward positively. So one of the greatest things
about the Primal Wound frameworkis that I have an entire reset
system. So, so we have, you know, a
pause moment, we have a reframe moment, we have an identify
(14:31):
moment. What part of yourself is
activated? Because what I'll see a lot is
that people, so once, once my clients have their aha moment,
they're like, Oh my gosh, this is the primal wound.
I give them a tool called the story I'm telling myself.
So what they do is whenever they're feeling activated, I
have them go underneath it and say the story I'm telling myself
is blank. Whatever it is, I'm not good
(14:53):
enough, I'm not seeing it wasn'tchosen.
Whatever it is, fill it in. And from there, what part of
yourself is activated? And this is where Eric Burns
work. It's really important because we
will revert to a part of self. So I have a child responder that
gets real teary or temper tantrumy.
We have a teen responder that your justice warrior.
(15:14):
It's the one that's rolling the eyes or stomping out, you know.
And then we have the parent responder who's very judgmental,
very critical, very ruminating, you know, we'll sit and spin.
And this is really where I feel that the framework is so
fantastic because it gives you actually a guideline.
So if you're if you're stuck in a rumination mindset, you can
(15:37):
identify that this is your parent responder.
Then you can step outside of it by having tools that fit that
part of self right. Does the child, teenager and
parent vary? Responder vary based on.
Primal Wound. On the primal wound.
No. Within each primal wound, you
will bounce to all three parts of self.
(15:58):
Why do you say parents are judgmental?
It's that you should have known better.
You knew better than to do that.You knew better than to get into
that relationship. Or did you?
Grow up with that. You know.
Because I don't I I think that would be a a bad universal claim
about all parents. Well, it's the parent mindset,
(16:21):
so it's not necessarily that your parents were like that.
It's that your internal responder or narrative will get
judgmental or critical. Children don't necessarily have
that part of self. And this is where burns work in
transactional analysis identified.
It's actual parts of the brain that store memory.
(16:42):
And then we go into that part ofbrain and respond from that part
of self. So it's actually really
fascinating work. But what I'll find is, you know
how people say they need comfortfood?
That's that's the responder. So that's the teen responder
that wants to go get that type of candy that you ate when you
were 13 or your child responder that loves that macaroni and
cheese or the Cheerios with, youknow, a big bowl of milk or
(17:04):
whatever. And so when you identify the
part of self that you're bouncing into during an
activation is actually one of the fastest ways to reset your
brain. You've used the word activation
a few times. How do you that?
How do you define activation when it comes to your theory of
the seven primal? Wounds, So it's the hot stove
moment where we actually revert to the limbic system or to the
(17:27):
amygdala. And we're not thinking from
rational thought. So we're, we're basically in an
automatic mode. And I, I tell my clients, look,
if a fire's coming through the window, we're not going to sit
and calmly talk. I'm probably going to throw you
out the window. So I have a safe landing, right?
Like I am out for myself. There is no team involved.
It's survival 101. And when we have a, you know,
(17:49):
some people call it a trigger, Icall it an activation.
I just like the word a little better.
It sounds like a word that a pilot would be.
Right, there you go. There you.
Go. That's why I thought it was
worth worth discussing. Yeah, yeah.
So, so when the activation happens, the big thing pre
activation time, we still have alittle bit of rational thought
(18:12):
involved. So we're still processing with
some rational like mindset. But when we go to the full blown
activation, that's it. And this is what I see happens
with couples when things get toxic or they get nasty or they
get bad, right. They'll use that kind of
language with me and they've gone from any kind of rational
thought to single self mindset survival mode.
(18:34):
So they're no longer engaged with one another.
And where that really was important in the work that I was
doing with couples is because that's actually where we pull
out a knife or we pull out a shield.
And you can imagine it's very hard to be intimate with someone
that you're constantly knifing or shielding.
So that activation moment, if they don't, if a couple does not
(18:57):
repair, then it's a wound. It's a primal wound in that
moment and it sticks in your brain.
And then the next time I can detect 11,000,000 bits of
information a second. And so when I start to see you
do the thing that's going to wound me, I'm already in defense
mode. Now I'm protecting myself.
(19:19):
And, and you start adding those up and stacking them on.
Now the intimacy is gone. Now you have a sexless marriage,
right? And so now you're roommates, Now
you're just raising the kids together doing the thing.
And there's no intimacy because we can't be intimate with
someone that's constantly wounding us.
It's unsafe. How you know if we were you
(19:43):
know, you were talking about theZodiac for a second let's you
weren't talking about it. But if we were, you know, you
see, astrologers say, Oh well, Pisces belong with Cancers and.
Aries and Cancers and cancers and.
Aries and Sagittarius exactly soyou can go on and on.
Have you come up with any framework for patterns for you
(20:03):
know what's funny when, because you work with couples, I'm
wondering if you've said, well, this is interesting, you're a
this and you're a this and thesepatterns seem to.
Work a little Better Together. Yes, I actually have.
And so this is definitely going to be the next phase of my
research and where I take this for sure because I definitely am
seeing things play out this way.There's also some really
(20:25):
fascinating stuff that I'm seeing with narcissism or
narcissistic personality disorder and what those primal
wounds tend to look like and what they tend to be and how
they interact in relationships as well.
So I'm seeing a lot of stuff playing out that way.
It's really fascinating when I get 2 of the same criminal
wounders together. That doesn't happen very often,
(20:45):
but I have a client right now, active client that I'm like,
wow, this is a hot mess. You guys are a hot mess.
But we're working through it because they so quickly go and
one of them grabs the parent responder more often and one of
them grabs the child. And you can imagine intimacy
does not. Insane.
But you you're hitting differentlevels because of different
(21:06):
emotional levels of almost a maturity or well, I.
Don't know that's. Exactly right.
I know children that are it can be pretty mature versus adults.
So it could go. Yes, but no, you're exactly
right. And you know, she'll say, I
don't understand why he just can't blank why I have to.
And he's like quit talking to melike you're my mother, right.
And they're engaged in that dynamic all the time and they go
(21:28):
there so fast. I mean, it's just instant when
they're activated and they're definitely struggling intimately
because mom and five year old iswhat's showing up in this
relationship all the time. So it's really interesting
stuff. You use the word narcissistic,
narcissistic personality and youcould spend an hour on social
(21:49):
media and it's everywhere. I mean, we're, you know,
everyone's going to label everyone something.
And I personally find a lot of labels disturbing.
Personally I totally agree because I think they either give
someone an I think they give someone an excuse to stay in and
the other person the excuse exactly.
(22:10):
So one is, well, that's him or her and then you can play your
role, so. So what I what I see often
narcissistic personality disorder as classified by the
DSM 5. Right?
Like if we were to look at it from the psychological lens.
I agree, toss out the labels. There's not many.
Absolutely. There's a lot of selfish people.
(22:32):
There are a lot of annoying people.
There are a lot of people more willing to say what they want
and not then you know, and a lotof people who aren't willing to
say what they want. There are willing people who are
verbally loose with their lips, you know.
What I see? Doesn't make everyone a
narcissist. So I say it it's an emotional
immaturity. It's typically an I am damaged
(22:54):
primal wounder or an incapable primal primal wounder.
Again, my research is not fully developed on this yet, but this
is what I'm trending. Into what you're What you're
saying is very interesting. And and then they're maladaptive
response to that primal wound ishyper control of others
manipulation, right? And these are tactics that they
(23:15):
have learned as part of that hotstove survival.
And so it can be really a mess if we have a damaged with an
insignificant or a powerless with an incapable, right.
Like when you start to see like you were talking about the two
getting together. If I have a powerless wounder
with an incapable wounder then it gets real toxic very fast.
(23:38):
Well, you just used my other least favorite word.
Toxic. No, because.
I like to say to people, listen,instead of calling everybody
toxic, can't we just say oil andwater don't mix?
And you know, nobody has to likeme.
I have to like me. That's my number one thing.
I have to like me. You don't have to like me.
But let's all try to have a conversation and we can agree
(24:01):
that we disagree. And if we agree, we disagree on
enough, well, maybe we should just go our death separate ways
because we're just not going to find that groove that makes us
that intimate love connection. I love that and an example that
I use with my clients is I say you can look outside and say the
sky is white. I can look outside and say the
sky is Gray. You can look outside and say the
(24:21):
sky is blue. And the bottom line is we're all
right. That is our perception of our
world. And where we get into problems
is when I try to change your mind about that, that's when
things get toxic, right? So what we need to do instead is
figure out why do you feel that way?
I'm really curious. Why do you see the sky as white?
I definitely see it as Gray. So I'm, I'm really curious of
(24:42):
your perspective. I'm not going to try to change
your mind, but if we have to go on the 5:00 news and tell
everybody what color the sky is,we're going to have to find
something we agree on. Maybe we agree it's not raining.
Maybe we agree there's no sun today, you know, right.
Like so, so we're looking for tomove out of toxic land.
We're looking for where we agree.
And we're not trying to change our partners mind or whoever
(25:05):
we're in relationship with theirmind.
We're simply just trying to get curious about their perspective.
And and couples suck at this, right?
Like you, you would never go into Starbucks and ask the
breeze to how's your day? And they would say, oh, it's
terrible. And you'd be like, OK, well, let
me tell you about my day. You would be like, Oh my gosh,
I'm so sorry to hear that. Right?
We would affirm, we would acknowledge, we would validate.
(25:27):
And we might not agree with them, but we can at least hold
space to validate them. And we don't do that with each
other. And that's how things get so
toxic so fast. Well, I'm always amazed with
people that are in business thattell me I'm a great negotiator.
I'm a great negotiator. I negotiate all day long.
Great. So why is your marriage falling
apart? You know, apparently there's
(25:51):
some gaps in that negotiation ability.
Yeah. Right.
So let's look at those. Yeah, right.
That's that's fantastic. Yeah.
I love that. You know, and it's really funny
because it, it is a recurring theme.
You know, we, we know the thingswe're good at and often we think
we're really good at work in different areas.
But when it translates into those more intimate moments, the
(26:13):
most important ones, we don't want to ask for what we want.
It's a, you know, it's A and as you're breaking it down into
personalities, would you say there are people that are more
likely to ask what they want andless likely and more likely to
just. Oh yes.
Oh, you don't even notice what Iwant, which is the worst of them
(26:35):
all. Yeah, and the Undeservers and
the powerless wounders are and the outsiders are really
terrible at voicing their opinion and the others will
voice their opinion and then they'll regret it.
So they'll over voice their opinion and it's oh, I probably
shouldn't have spoken up. Although I will say, you know,
(26:55):
there I think that upbringing does tie into that right?
Like be not. So what is it seen and not heard
or whatever, you know, those sorts of narratives that we
carry throughout as well. So I think environment does play
into it as well. But they're it's fascinating
when you learn your primal woundand you start to see all the
ways it trickles out in your life and how you show up or
(27:17):
don't show up because of that ticker tape or the pre
activations that are constantly running.
What would you say to someone who you've identified their
primal wound, you're pointing out their behaviors, but they
keep going back to that hotspot in their youth, for example, or
whatever it is. Using your words, how do you say
(27:41):
you know what time to get present?
You know, it's it's the pee is pause.
And I think that is the hardest thing to do because the
activations happened so fast. And so I feel like more often
than not, what I'll see is someone will shoot off that
nasty text so fast. You know, they'll do something
so quickly in protection. And if you could tattoo this on
(28:04):
your inner arm and look down, you would go story I'm telling
myself is that, you know, I'm damaged, I'm unlovable.
And and then you can take that pause and then you can do all
the rest of the steps. And you I have clients that
won't move out of it. They'll never even get to the
pause. Some of them are so protected
(28:24):
and guarded of their child that they'll stay in a parent
responder. They won't even get to like a
teary part where they can even recognize that they're sad about
the way that they're feeling, right.
They're just so hard on themselves.
So it so that is all part of it.And and there are people that
will stay stuck in the immediatelash out response or the
immediate withdraw response. It takes a level of emotional
(28:48):
maturity and desire to be able to step out of it.
I'm envisioning your future jewelry line.
OK. Speaking so you take the
complete opposite of you know I'm unworthy.
I am worthy. Yes, yes, and and get in the
brace, yes. Even if they're rubber, I bet
(29:09):
they'd be best sellers. Exactly.
The primal wound bracelet. It's your primal wound bracelet.
Yeah, there it is, right there. It is no, no, no, no, no, no.
You lift the script. You got that feeling?
Pause. Look at your wrist.
Take a breath. Take a breath.
Story I'm telling myself is, oh,that's right.
I am worthy. Yeah, I am worthy of saying no
right now because I need this time for myself and I don't have
(29:30):
to apologize about it. I can simply say thank you for
understanding. Yeah.
When you flip the primal wounds,can you do it that way?
They become a superpower. So it can be.
It's kind of like a duality instead.
If I'm unworthy, I am worthy. Instead of I am.
Undeserving. Undeserving.
I am deserving. Of this raise, of this
(29:52):
promotion, it absolutely becomesa superpower.
You know, my primal wound is I am insignificant.
And so I run around the planet trying to make myself feel
significant, right? I'll go do a 7000 nautical mile
book tour to prove to myself that I'm significant so the
journey doesn't end. And that's why this is called
the Wounds to Wings book tour, because it's really about taking
(30:15):
my own wound and turning it intoa superpower, something that's
going to have positive change for other people, right?
So it starts as I'm insignificant, I better do
something significant. But then if you, if you find the
in deep internal positive motivation, then you can
actually turn it into something that's going to help a lot of
(30:37):
other people, something that's going to help yourself,
something that's going to elevate your life, right?
You can. You can tweak the wound to
actually work for you and not against you.
You know you, I love that you just said that because I have
always believed that those things that could either, you
(31:01):
can either go through your wholelife framing them as you know
what was me? I'm just screwed.
My parents did this to me. Life did this to me.
Or you can flip it into another direction.
And I remember having the first light switch moment.
I was getting my hair dyed some horrific color back in the 80s
when I had every horrific color and which is why it's silver
(31:22):
now. But I was in a salon and I
remember reading Rolling Stone magazine and it was an Annie
Lennox and Dave Stewart from theEurythmics and they were being
interviewed by could have been Dave Marsh or Pete Travers,
whoever was writing for them at the time.
And they said, you know, you guys really didn't make it till
you were kind of old as far as rock'n'roll goes.
(31:45):
You know, it's not like they made it when they were 18 or 20
when all these different punk bands and new wave bands were
making it. They were close, closer to 3030
ish. And he said to him, what kept
you going? And he said low self esteem.
He said I had to prove it to theworld.
(32:07):
I had to. And the only way, if I could
prove it to the world, I could prove it to myself.
And I remember thinking, Whoa. Yeah.
Wow I am so glad it's taken a long time for my hair coloring
set right. It was this aha moment of not
just acknowledging the challenges in life, but owning
(32:29):
them as a benefit and embracing it as the oomph, the power, the
I'm going to get up on that stage and rocket.
The hold my beer moment. Yeah, that's right.
That's right. That's exactly it.
And so, you know, as a kid growing up in the in the trailer
in the woods, right? I don't matter.
You're nothing. And then it was, no, I don't
(32:50):
think I'm going to settle for that.
Right. But it wasn't until the Primal
wound framework that I put it all together and realized I was
doing the work. Just didn't know I was doing the
work. Yeah, I was figuring out how to
cook on a hot stove and not get burned, right?
Yep. Well, it's very, it's very
fascinating to me how you verbalized it and created the
different categories and within the categories, the parent, teen
(33:13):
and child. Yes, you know.
Because it's it takes it a step deeper, because you could have
one personality trait and we canall imagine when you look and
you say want to say to the otherperson, you know, you're acting
like my mother or don't you know, what are you?
What are you? A teenager can't control their
(33:34):
their, you know, emotions or a five year old who just wants,
you know, like, come on. So I could see, you know,
there's obviously we're humans were incredibly complex and no
two of us are alike. So the constant thing is
figuring out how to negotiate and being willing to say, you
know what? This is important enough to me
(33:54):
that I don't want to be right. I want the relationship.
I don't need to be right. I need the relationship or I
want the relationship. So it's that choice.
Well, and and couples really love it when they figure out the
primal responders, which is, youknow, child, teen and parent,
because then they can actually get involved in the repair.
So I'll often have a husband sayI tried to give her a hug.
She didn't want me to detect her.
(34:15):
I'm like, right, because she's activated in her teenager.
She's rolling her eyes and stomping out of the bedroom and
slamming the door. She doesn't want you hugging
her, right? Or then I'll have a, a woman
say, well, all I needed was a hug and he wouldn't touch me.
You know, she was activated in her child and he didn't know.
He's like, I don't, I don't knowwhat to do.
So when they start to figure it out, it becomes so much better.
(34:37):
And I really empower individuals.
Repair yourself, right? Have that playlist that you
throw on from when you were a kid or a teenager or now, or go
treat yourself to that fancy pair of shoes because your
parent is super activated, right?
Like when you start to realize you can actually handle to
repair yourself and then eventually you can invite your
partner in on it or your best friend or whatever and it works
(34:58):
out really beautifully. You, you hit on to me the most
important. I mean, you've raised so many
really important points during this discussion, but it's that
look at yourself. I always go back to the Golden
rule, the man. In the mirror.
You know, the man in the mirror,you know, you know that you have
(35:19):
to love yourself before you can start love, you know, as I would
have loved you, you know, you know, you've got to look at
yourself really closely and say,before I start, you know, or
they're like an Alcoholics Anonymous literature, which I
have always loved. There's so many good
expressions. You know, if you're pointing a
finger at somebody, there's fourpointing back at you.
You know, don't compare your insights to other people's
(35:42):
outsides. There's just so many good things
that if we could all just take that beat, that pause to look
and say, well, where am I comingfrom with this?
You know, why is that person pissing me off right now?
Why? Why can't I just let them be
them and me go take a walk around the block?
Yes, I always, I always tell people it's called insight not
(36:04):
outsight for a reason. That's a good line.
You got to look inside that could.
Have been your second book titlethere we.
Go. It's funny because a good, good
friend of mine, long time friend, he said your next book
is going to be called It's what you do next.
You know, it's, it's, it's not in the, it's what you do next
(36:25):
that matters most. I think there's huge truth in
that because, you know, I started off in private practice,
just working with individuals. Then by waves and how things
happened, I ended up working in a venture capital firm and then
working with CEO's of publicly traded companies and managing
the message of the companies. But it also became very personal
(36:47):
because maybe that CEO had to present to a board and then you
know, or you you get to know someone and you find out the
problems they're having at home.You know, it just happens.
Things unfold, but the insight and getting back to yourself
first, you know, the first rule of crisis management is take
(37:09):
that beat. Look at this as a different
situation that's never happened before.
And then it's what you do next that matters the most.
Exactly. And I say to our kids all the
time. In fact, I learned it from my
younger brother who was had his challenges and you know, he he
(37:30):
was testing the limits. Of the world damaged.
There wasn't a challenge he wasn't going to try.
From everything you know, you know the motor scooter in the
sump, the you know something. I would put money on the damaged
wounder, but anyway, go on. You know, and he would say, you
know, I make a lot of mistakes, but I try not to make the same 1
twice. There you go.
(37:50):
There you. Go and there's so much wisdom
in. This there is, you know.
It's that response. And you know, it's what I've
said to our kids over the years.Listen, you're going to screw
up. I screw up.
We all screw up. People make mistakes.
How are you going to recover? How are you going to say sorry
if you should say sorry and say it really sincerely, you know,
not just sorry, you know, right.Or throw that sorry and walk out
(38:14):
the room because I had to say it, you know, like give it some
substance, right? You know.
When my clients say that, when they say, well, I'm sorry, this
I said no, no, no, back it up. Why are you sorry?
I don't know. Because she's just ticked off
off. OK, well, then that's not a
sorry. You're not sorry about anything.
You're sorry that you're in the situation and fighting, but
you're not sorry about what justhappened.
(38:36):
Let's toss that out and come up with something else.
Right? And, and I, I like to teach my
clients to apologize for their part because it's much easier to
do that like authentically than it is to just toss out the I'm
sorry. And it's interesting you point
out for your part, you know, with whether it's clients or
(39:01):
kids that are navigating their 20s or with my husband, you
know, or any relationship I'm in, I always try to step back
and say, OK, what's my part? No, right, what's my part?
They're very rarely times when someone is 100% wrong, right?
OK, we've seen this recently in the news.
You kill someone, you're 100% wrong, period.
(39:22):
The end of story. I will never negotiate that on
that with anyone, you know, because there's a point you can
discuss things. You can turn the page, you can
walk away, you can say they should be arrested.
That's different than, you know,acting out on that violence.
And it's funny when somebody hasto step back and say we're not
(39:45):
funny. It's the responses can be funny
when you can get someone to really look and say, well, I
just walked in the room. I'm like, well, you got to do a
little better than that, yeah. Yeah, there was more there.
Come on now, let's go a little. Into the room.
How were you stomping your feet,right?
You know what did your facial expressions?
Right. That's right.
(40:05):
Absolutely. I just walked in the room and
she was ticked off. Yeah, actually she picked up on
those 11,000,000 bits of data that you were dumping, including
that glare or the lie role or whatever.
Yeah, it's fascinating. And you know, in the my part, it
also empowers people to not haveto change their partners
experience of their wound, right.
(40:26):
So yeah, that sucks that you're activated and not feeling good
enough. I didn't do that.
However, my part might be such and such blank and blank.
And then you can really start toseparate, you know, the ways in
which we show up. And that's when you can actually
become a team. And gosh, that's got to feel
tough to feel like that. Yes, that's because somebody
(40:46):
told you to back off the car in front of you.
You feel not good enough. Shoot, that's a that's tough to
go through life because if somebody tells me to back off
the car in front of them, it doesn't bother me a bit.
Right, like that is such a good example.
I think a lot of people will really do that.
You know. Because it's so simple and it's
so visual and I don't know any couple that doesn't somehow say
(41:10):
he drives like a maniac or she drives like a maniac, or she
never should have gotten her license or he thinks he's for
stopping, right? I'm looking at my partner on
screen because we've had this activation moment on the way to
the airport. Yeah, it happens.
It happens. It happens.
The other one that cracked me up, I've said this on another
(41:33):
podcast, but David Coverdale from Whitesnake post some very
hilarious memes. Some.
Really. Huh.
I'll have to check him out. I don't even know how he ended
up in my feet, but some just downright my husband will say,
what are you laughing about? I'm like, Oh my gosh.
She posted another one, but one was a man and a woman in a car.
And there's a thought bubble over the.
(41:54):
The brain bubble, I have that inmy book, yes.
And she's and it says. I realized he was right 99% of
the time, but I just didn't likehis tone of voice.
This is this is literally the crux of the Primal Moon book.
This is it right here. The brain bubble and then the
tone of voice is the parent responder usually.
(42:15):
So yeah, that's you nailed it ina meme.
There it is. We'll give David.
Credit, We'll give David credit for that one.
Or wherever. I'm going to have to go grab
that. And it's very funny because, you
know, it's amazing to me how, you know, when, whenever someone
will relay a situation to me. Yeah, in a, you know, we're in
(42:36):
a, they're having a crisis at home or at work or in any
situation. And they'll relay it.
And they'll always say, well, you know, I said to them, you
know, why do you have to do that?
Right. You know, did, was that really
necessary? You know what I'm like?
Did you actually use that tone of voice is?
That the way you did it, yeah. Is that the way?
I don't question Those are the words you use.
(42:58):
Right. But was that the tone?
Was that your facial expression?You know, was were the eyebrows
going up and down, you know, with could you do that great
Vivian Lee, where an eyebrow goes up and down, you know, did
you give him some of this or theneck?
No, I can't do the neck. I want to practice.
The neck Can you happen to have 8?
(43:21):
I don't know how to get the. Neck to the side.
I want to do that one, yeah. I don't know how to do it
either. But I've tried it's not working.
Yeah. Just for the kicks of it to be
able to pull that out sometime. That one I got from my daughter
though. I don't even know how they do
it, it's so fast. But all of that, you know, the
(43:42):
body language, the that comes into a conversation that can
either elevate it or make it, you know, down the drain fast.
Yeah. And I think that's the part that
at least with the the reset program that I have, you get
clued into all of those little things that start in your body
(44:02):
before your brain's considering anything.
So it's the jaw clenching or that you know, you feel you feel
it as a response because of their non verbal cues, which is
I think 78% of all communication, right.
So when your body is detecting that you're already going into
that pre activation and it just takes someone walking through
(44:24):
the door with the look and you're on guard, you know, and
it's that quick. And so that's where I really
teach my clients. It's important to slow it down.
And you know, I took a a Coast Guard class once on boating and
it's, I don't know, some 40 pagebook and all these different
questions. And the only thing two things
that I took away from that were nothing bad happened slow and
(44:47):
red right returning. Yes, slow down.
Yeah, keep the no way. Slow, right.
So, so from there, you know, you're you're bringing a boat
into the dock. You do it slowly and you're
going to have a much better response.
And so part of the primal wound book includes talk tactics,
(45:09):
which is like, hey, if you can crisscross applesauce, sit on
the floor. If your knees can be touching
one another, you're in a non defensive, non posturing
position. So you're more likely to be able
to engage in conversation. If you feel yourself having to
start to stand up right, that isa clue that you are becoming
activated because you're starting to need to get away
from the situation. If you're pulling your hand off
(45:32):
your partner and when you're talking calmly and suddenly I
don't want to be touching you, it's not it's so now it's
defensive posturing position, you're moving away.
Those are clues that your body is telling you this is unsafe.
And so when you learn these kindof quick, easy ways to be in
conversation, setting meeting time limits, right, we can't
have conversations drag out for three hours.
(45:53):
It's just not healthy. All these little things just
really elevate the conversation.They elevate the relationship
and they help people get from point A to point B on topics
that they've maybe completely avoided or have been
stonewalling one another on for years.
You hit on so many really excellent points in this book.
(46:15):
We're talking about 7 Primal Wounds, your new book, and you
you hit on so many things because you're not just
identifying, you're giving a framework to work with, and that
alone should make it a best seller.
Put it into practice, but you know.
That's not necessarily how old books go.
They, you know, true, very true.You know, I have thousands of
(46:38):
books. I've literally read thousands of
books. And it's always interesting to
me that some people are really good at pointing it out.
They're good at telling people how you can recognize it in
yourself or other people, right?But not necessarily.
What are you going to do when you encounter it in yourself?
What are you going to do when you encounter in another?
How can you take that breath, Take that beat?
(47:00):
The badam pause and do somethingwith it because it's what you do
next that matters the most, right?
And I I think that this was the big thing is, you know what
couples that I work with and clients that I work with.
I mean, I have people that are even entering the dating world
or looking for a new job. You know, we apply the primal
wounding to everything. When they first learned the
wound, they had the aha moment of, Oh yeah.
(47:22):
And then they're like, well, what do I, how do I, I'm like,
don't worry, I got you, Boo. We have a plan.
And, and once they learn, I mean, I teach them how to
communicate differently using the framework of their wound as
part of the language, because otherwise they lose their voice,
they're afraid to speak up. So we actually have like really
graceful language that they use with their wound specifically in
(47:44):
mind. And so it really becomes really
a powerful tool for all decisionmaking and all relationships.
But I had a client tell me I absolutely love this client.
And she said, because I always say we're aiming for progress,
not perfection. And she said, I'm done with
that. And I said, OK.
She said, my dad told me something that I like better.
I'm like, OK, you tell me what it is.
(48:05):
She said aim for excellence because excellence is something
that you can continue to work toward.
And I liked that better. Yeah.
Because progress is kind of likethe path, but excellence is
striving for or, but you can have some flexibility within it.
And I like that a lot. So aiming for excellence.
I'm like, that's good. We'll, we'll do that.
(48:26):
We will aim for excellence. It's going to be tough to top
that, but we're down to like ourlast two or so minutes of this
show. It always goes way too fast and
I have really enjoyed this conversation.
What would be your words for Hope for someone who's
struggling with themselves or a relationship?
(48:48):
Obviously they should start withreading your book because it
would help give them a road map,but what would What would be
your MMH like? You can do this, and here's why
and how and why it's worth it. I simply tell people, you're not
broken, you're actually working very well.
We just need to harness it in a little bit different of a way.
(49:09):
And I think that that is something so special because so
many people feel like they're broken, like there's just
something wrong with me. No, you're working actually
excellent. Your brain is doing everything
it is meant to do to keep you alive and protect you, and we
can harness all of that goodnessinto something really amazing.
So that's my, that's my 2 bits. That that's a real good 2 bit.
(49:35):
That is a very good because I I couldn't agree with you more.
You're not broken. You're not broken, you know we
you just need to get your copingmessage mechanisms of how you
can best navigate the world because.
That's right. Yeah.
The I am damagers. They, they, they love to get
addicted. They love to, to do crazy
things. They, you know, and then they
(49:56):
affirm that belief that I'm justunlovable.
I'm damaged. I'm, you know, a menace to
society. But when they realize that
they're not broken, that's just their maladaptive choices, then
we can make different choices. They just need the little
bracelet. There you go, which I'm telling
you, you could do the Super simple rubber ones.
I love it. You know my.
(50:17):
The live strong, but the primal wounds.
There we go. Primal wounds on one side or on
the inside or the back, and thenyour message on the front.
Love it, love it I. Mean you could have those to
market in a week. Yes, I think I will.
And I have no doubt people wouldwear them.
Probably, yeah, I love it. I I absolutely love talking with
people that get psychology. So thank you so much for having
(50:39):
me on your podcast. Oh my gosh, this was a pleasure.
I've been speaking with Doctor Michaela Johnson this she is the
author of Seven Primal Moons. I highly recommend you get this
book. There will be all kinds of
links, so you can follow her on social media, get onto her
website, learn more about what she's doing.
(51:00):
And thank you. This was really a great
conversation. I enjoyed it.
Thank you. Thank you, everybody.
I'm Diane Grissell. This is the Silver Disbedience
Perception Dynamics podcast we've been recording in iconic
Manhattan Center on West 34th St. in New York City.
And I hope you hit subscribe. And again, definitely check
(51:23):
below in the copy so you can find all kinds of links to learn
more about what we've been discussing and share this
because there's such good content here.
It can only make the world better.
And isn't that what we'd all like to do?
Thank you.
Do invisible wounds shape our relationship, our self worth,
maybe even our decision making and other things as well?
Well, I have some thoughts on that and so does my next guest.
She's the author of a new book called 7 Primal Wounds and we're
(00:22):
going to be discussing what those wounds are and how they
impact us. Please say hello to Michaela
Johnson who flew in. Yes, piloted in.
Maybe more accurately I should say, because she is on a self
piloted book tour for this new book.
Welcome. Thank you so much for having me,
(00:43):
Diane. I'm very excited to be here and
it was quite the adventure to get here, so I'm glad it all
worked out. How many how many places are you
going on this book tour, just out of curiosity?
We have about 35 stops, so in total, well, 35 states, it's a
lot more stops than that and we've already come about 3600
nautical miles. So it's been quite the journey.
(01:03):
Oh my gosh, now you're a pilot. I'm a pilot, You're a.
Pilot and you had a very unusualupbringing and I'd like to look
at that a minute before we get into your.
Book. Yeah, absolutely.
You grew up off the grid. Yes, in Desolation Wilderness
and a 27 foot fifth wheel, no running water and no
electricity. We literally had a porta potty
in the yard. And so at the time I did not
(01:26):
appreciate that upbringing. And it was well before hashtag
Van. Life was very cool.
And so, you know, I was shaving my legs and I smelt creaks and
things like that. My parents cringe hearing this
story. They're like, no, that never
happened. You're fine.
But in hindsight, I really learned a lot about resiliency
and grit and kind of how to showup gracefully even when things
(01:47):
are really tough. You know, that's, that's a great
point you just made. I always like to remind people
when they talk about their youthand all the things that they
think were so horrible. I mean, I, I did not grow up off
the grid, but we weren't allowedto watch television.
But the flip side of that is I became an avid reader.
Right. So there's always a, I don't
(02:10):
like to go in just dualities, but they're always benefits of
whatever if you choose to find them.
Yeah, it's making lemonade out of lemons, right?
And sometimes you just have to toss the whole batch out and go
find some new fruit. But that's OK, too.
Yeah. Or add more sugar, right?
Or a little. Bit more sugar.
OK, so 7 primal wounds, Yeah, that's such an interesting topic
(02:34):
because the first time when I first read that, I thought 7
deadly sins, right? And I'm thinking, oh, primal
wounds, where'd you come up withthis?
And what's your theory as to howwe develop primal wounds?
Well, I started seeing patterns in the work I was doing with
couples, so I started to notice every time they were fighting,
there was a theme underneath. And I, I did grow up watching
(02:58):
Sesame Street on occasion when we had power and electricity.
And you know, there's that you're looking for the one kid
that's doing something different.
And I started to see these patterns playing out in
relationships. And I was very fascinated by it
because it was almost like the scene from Charlie Brown where
the parents, you hear them talking going wah, wah, wah,
wah. And it doesn't really matter
(03:19):
what they're saying because underneath it, everything was
the same. And there were these patterns
emerging. And I, I started to just get
really curious. I was like, wait, slow that
down. What was underneath that?
Peel back that layer for me, strip that onion back a little
bit. What's in the And I kept probing
my clients to go deeper and deeper and deeper.
And they were all, well, I don'tknow, hold on, let me think
(03:40):
about that. And, and once they started to
dive down as well, when she saysthat, I just feel like I'm not
good enough. There it is.
OK, It's not good enough. And then I started to see these
themes emerge. And there were about seven of
them. Actually, there were 10 when I
started. But part of my doctoral research
was really to pare it back and get very specific.
(04:01):
And I just realized that there are these core beliefs and they
start in childhood. So it doesn't mean you had
terrible parents. It's like, quite the contrary.
It can be something very simple.So for example, a powerless
wounder might have grown up in afamily system where they had a
sibling that was ill and they couldn't help their sibling and
they felt powerless. And then as a teenager, it
(04:24):
becomes, well, I'm never going to be powerful.
I'm never going to be empowered over my life.
And then as an adult, we paradoxically pick people and
situations that actually affirm the narrative.
So we invite someone into our life that will remind us every
day that we are not empowered over our relationship or our
situation because it's paradoxically comfortable to us.
(04:45):
We learned how to live with thatnarrative.
And so then we carry it throughout our entire life.
Now, one thing that I find really fascinating, the people
that have the incapable primal wound, which is like the
unintelligent and not smart enough.
They're like, hold my beer, watch how smart I am, and they
will go start corporations that make billions of dollars.
(05:06):
So there are ways that you can actually take the primal wound
or the core belief and you can turn it into a superpower.
And that's exactly what the book's about.
That's very interesting. How does someone identify their
primal wounds? Well, you think when they read
your book something pops out andthey say, oh, this is me. 100%
(05:26):
So what I started to identify first was that I could really
figure out the primal wound by listening to the language that
they were using when they were complaining and griping.
And my partner does this and then this happens.
And I said, well what? What do you usually fight?
Well, we start to fight about blah blah blah.
And I would hear these pre activations playing out like I'm
a disappointment or I'm never chosen or I just can't seem to
(05:51):
get anything right or I'm a failure, you know, etcetera,
etcetera. And as I started to hear the
themes, I was like, oh, there's pre activations that are these
building up moments that lead tothe big activation.
And so I actually have a quiz online that people can take.
It's it's kind of like a Myers Briggs types type quiz.
(06:11):
It's 70 questions and they can go through and it weeds out, you
know, based upon these pre activations and the narrative.
It's the ticker tape that's running through their head, and
then their primal wound comes out at the end.
Yeah. So it's really fascinating.
Now, do you think there are crossovers in personality
traits? I have yet so on the back end I
(06:33):
can see the percentages of all the different wounds and I have
yet to see anybody that has tied.
So there is always a predominantprimal wound.
Although when people hear the seven, they say I have all of
them and we can we can relate toall 7 on some level you.
Know what are the seven? Let's go through them and it's
always, you know, it's always inthe morning time when I'm just
(06:54):
fresh on the coffee that I have to listen.
So here. So here we go.
I'm going to use my fingers. That's OK, I understand.
So it's I am insignificant, I aminadequate, I am damaged, I am
incapable, I am undeserving, I am powerless, and I am an
outsider. Oh, interesting.
Yeah, so the outsider wound, it's the I'm different and don't
(07:17):
belong sometimes. They were the goth kids when
they were in high school. They're the self-proclaimed
introverts, right? They can only people so much
before they can't do any more peopling.
If their friends don't include them on a text message or to go
out to dinner, they are fatally hurt.
I mean, it is like a knife to their chest.
(07:38):
They're going to ghost you for aweek and a half, maybe three
years because you left them out of something.
And so in partnerships, what I'll find is we'll have an
extroverted husband or an extroverted wife, right with the
I am an outsider spouse. And then they'll go to a dinner
party and the extroverted spouseis running around just yapping
(07:58):
it up, gabbing with everybody. And the outsider is just so
upset. Like, how could you leave me
alone in this corner? I know nobody here.
I'm all by myself. I don't fit in.
And then it starts a fight in the car on the way home.
And so these are the ways the primal wounds play out.
If we have a not a not good enough or the inadequate primal
(08:18):
wound, you know, you walk through the door and the wife
says you didn't this, you didn'tthat.
He's already just worked the whole day and he's like
nothing's ever enough for you right now.
You now you want me to do all these things too.
Nothing's ever enough. And we see a lot of
perfectionism in the good enoughprimal wound.
So the incapables are perfectionists as well.
(08:40):
But but what's really fascinating about it is that
they will because they they don't feel smart enough, they
will spend so much time researching before they get
started. So they're often called
procrastinators or lazy. And it's not that they're lazy
at all. It's that they're really just
learning everything there is to learn before they move forward
with any of it. So it's like wife will say to
(09:02):
husband, hey, could you get somenew insurance for the car?
Well, he's got to research everypossible insurance option before
he gets new insurance for the car.
So three weeks go by and she's like, you still don't have, we
still don't have insurance on that new car.
Well, I'm still researching. You're just, you're just lazy.
You just don't want to help me out, right?
And then they're fighting. And so these are the ways in
(09:24):
which the primal wounds engage in our relationships, but they
also happen at work with our boss.
They happen with our kids. They happen in all the big
decisions that we make. I can tell you that some of the
biggest snafus I've made, I didn't trust my judgement.
And that's one of the pre activations for my primal wound
and I kick myself in the butt every time.
So yeah. Do you believe everyone fits
(09:47):
into a one of the seven categories?
Yes, my doctoral research started in Ainsworth and Bulby's
attachment work which is you know about secure base, anxious
avoidance, things like that. And then also is inclusive of
Eric Burns work, which is parts of self transactional analysis,
we call it in psychology. And you know, there's really no
(10:08):
way to go through the world without having what I call a hot
stove moment because we're in relationship the minute we walk
out our front door. And so you know, you have this,
you have this hot stove and you touch it and it burns you and
you have a physical emergency response to it.
And you either learn how to now work with that hot stove.
(10:31):
You know how to be careful and see if it's hot before you touch
it or grab a pan or you never cook on a stove again and you
microwave food from then on out,right.
So, and this is how the primal wounds work.
We have an emotional emergency response.
It's it's a psychological, physiological response in our
limbic system to something that has happened in a relationship.
(10:54):
Now, how do you equate the sevenprimal wounds to how do they act
out in, let's say, victimhood? Well, you can get stuck in those
pre activations that ticker tapeand this is definitely what I
see. So people will like the woe is
(11:14):
me mindset rather than tapping into that grit and resiliency
that we talked about earlier andthey'll stay in that space.
And we have something in psychology called confirmation
bias. So you'll.
My favorite topics. Well, yes, it's a.
It's a it's. I've written about that a lot.
Oh, and love it. Oh yeah, that's right.
(11:35):
Continued influence effect and confirmation bias or two of my.
Absolutely yes, yes. So you, you have the the
knowledge and the back story. So the confirmation bias, you'll
seek it out, right? So you'll look for being a
disappointment, you'll look for being unchosen.
You will look for whatever it isyou're telling yourself you're
powerless or you're undeserving.Undeservers are famous for
(11:56):
starting nonprofits. They will say yes to absolutely
everything so they can feel likethey deserve to be just in the
world really and, and among a group of people or whatever they
yes, I'll do it. Yes, I'll do that.
And then they have resentments, right.
So because they've taken on too much.
And then their narrative, I see this all the time in the, in the
(12:18):
work that I do. Their narrative is well,
everybody just needs something from me.
I just don't have any time for myself.
I'm like, that's what you're convincing yourself because
that's your primal wound. But we can work on that.
We can actually shift the way that you're looking at that and
have help you find more empowerment over your life.
You're a tough cookie. You grew up in a in a in a
(12:42):
environment that forced you to learn resilience.
Where do you think being confrontational fits with
someone who, let's say, falls into one of your 7 primal
categories? Is kind of in that well, this is
just what's happening to me, state of mind.
(13:03):
How do you go about confronting that?
You know, it's, it's fascinatingbecause as I've been doing this
for 15 years and as, and as my career has progressed, I've
really gotten to the point whereI've realized I'm not for
everybody. And I will, I will, I will
blankly say that like, hey, if you're not ready to step out of
that woe is me mindset, I'm probably not the person for you.
And there is definitely a therapist that will love to sit
(13:26):
there with you, but I'm going topoke and prod you a little bit
to come out of that space and elevate your life.
And so I've realized people haveto be ready to go along for that
journey because it's like ripping off a Band-Aid, you
know? And it hurts to look at kind of
the ways that you've kept yourself where you are.
And that that means that I'm notnecessarily the therapist for
(13:49):
everybody because I try to meet people where they're at.
And how much of your work involves back winding, you know,
to try it? I mean, obviously you have to
identify the kind of personalityyou think the person's falling
into versus going forward and more, you know, cognitive.
(14:09):
Let's like give you some tools to work with this so when this
is triggered or that you know pops into your head, you can
move forward positively. So one of the greatest things
about the Primal Wound frameworkis that I have an entire reset
system. So, so we have, you know, a
pause moment, we have a reframe moment, we have an identify
(14:31):
moment. What part of yourself is
activated? Because what I'll see a lot is
that people, so once, once my clients have their aha moment,
they're like, Oh my gosh, this is the primal wound.
I give them a tool called the story I'm telling myself.
So what they do is whenever they're feeling activated, I
have them go underneath it and say the story I'm telling myself
is blank. Whatever it is, I'm not good
(14:53):
enough, I'm not seeing it wasn'tchosen.
Whatever it is, fill it in. And from there, what part of
yourself is activated? And this is where Eric Burns
work. It's really important because we
will revert to a part of self. So I have a child responder that
gets real teary or temper tantrumy.
We have a teen responder that your justice warrior.
(15:14):
It's the one that's rolling the eyes or stomping out, you know.
And then we have the parent responder who's very judgmental,
very critical, very ruminating, you know, we'll sit and spin.
And this is really where I feel that the framework is so
fantastic because it gives you actually a guideline.
So if you're if you're stuck in a rumination mindset, you can
(15:37):
identify that this is your parent responder.
Then you can step outside of it by having tools that fit that
part of self right. Does the child, teenager and
parent vary? Responder vary based on.
Primal Wound. On the primal wound.
No. Within each primal wound, you
will bounce to all three parts of self.
(15:58):
Why do you say parents are judgmental?
It's that you should have known better.
You knew better than to do that.You knew better than to get into
that relationship. Or did you?
Grow up with that. You know.
Because I don't I I think that would be a a bad universal claim
about all parents. Well, it's the parent mindset,
(16:21):
so it's not necessarily that your parents were like that.
It's that your internal responder or narrative will get
judgmental or critical. Children don't necessarily have
that part of self. And this is where burns work in
transactional analysis identified.
It's actual parts of the brain that store memory.
(16:42):
And then we go into that part ofbrain and respond from that part
of self. So it's actually really
fascinating work. But what I'll find is, you know
how people say they need comfortfood?
That's that's the responder. So that's the teen responder
that wants to go get that type of candy that you ate when you
were 13 or your child responder that loves that macaroni and
cheese or the Cheerios with, youknow, a big bowl of milk or
(17:04):
whatever. And so when you identify the
part of self that you're bouncing into during an
activation is actually one of the fastest ways to reset your
brain. You've used the word activation
a few times. How do you that?
How do you define activation when it comes to your theory of
the seven primal? Wounds, So it's the hot stove
moment where we actually revert to the limbic system or to the
(17:27):
amygdala. And we're not thinking from
rational thought. So we're, we're basically in an
automatic mode. And I, I tell my clients, look,
if a fire's coming through the window, we're not going to sit
and calmly talk. I'm probably going to throw you
out the window. So I have a safe landing, right?
Like I am out for myself. There is no team involved.
It's survival 101. And when we have a, you know,
(17:49):
some people call it a trigger, Icall it an activation.
I just like the word a little better.
It sounds like a word that a pilot would be.
Right, there you go. There you.
Go. That's why I thought it was
worth worth discussing. Yeah, yeah.
So, so when the activation happens, the big thing pre
activation time, we still have alittle bit of rational thought
(18:12):
involved. So we're still processing with
some rational like mindset. But when we go to the full blown
activation, that's it. And this is what I see happens
with couples when things get toxic or they get nasty or they
get bad, right. They'll use that kind of
language with me and they've gone from any kind of rational
thought to single self mindset survival mode.
(18:34):
So they're no longer engaged with one another.
And where that really was important in the work that I was
doing with couples is because that's actually where we pull
out a knife or we pull out a shield.
And you can imagine it's very hard to be intimate with someone
that you're constantly knifing or shielding.
So that activation moment, if they don't, if a couple does not
(18:57):
repair, then it's a wound. It's a primal wound in that
moment and it sticks in your brain.
And then the next time I can detect 11,000,000 bits of
information a second. And so when I start to see you
do the thing that's going to wound me, I'm already in defense
mode. Now I'm protecting myself.
(19:19):
And, and you start adding those up and stacking them on.
Now the intimacy is gone. Now you have a sexless marriage,
right? And so now you're roommates, Now
you're just raising the kids together doing the thing.
And there's no intimacy because we can't be intimate with
someone that's constantly wounding us.
It's unsafe. How you know if we were you
(19:43):
know, you were talking about theZodiac for a second let's you
weren't talking about it. But if we were, you know, you
see, astrologers say, Oh well, Pisces belong with Cancers and.
Aries and Cancers and cancers and.
Aries and Sagittarius exactly soyou can go on and on.
Have you come up with any framework for patterns for you
(20:03):
know what's funny when, because you work with couples, I'm
wondering if you've said, well, this is interesting, you're a
this and you're a this and thesepatterns seem to.
Work a little Better Together. Yes, I actually have.
And so this is definitely going to be the next phase of my
research and where I take this for sure because I definitely am
seeing things play out this way.There's also some really
(20:25):
fascinating stuff that I'm seeing with narcissism or
narcissistic personality disorder and what those primal
wounds tend to look like and what they tend to be and how
they interact in relationships as well.
So I'm seeing a lot of stuff playing out that way.
It's really fascinating when I get 2 of the same criminal
wounders together. That doesn't happen very often,
(20:45):
but I have a client right now, active client that I'm like,
wow, this is a hot mess. You guys are a hot mess.
But we're working through it because they so quickly go and
one of them grabs the parent responder more often and one of
them grabs the child. And you can imagine intimacy
does not. Insane.
But you you're hitting differentlevels because of different
(21:06):
emotional levels of almost a maturity or well, I.
Don't know that's. Exactly right.
I know children that are it can be pretty mature versus adults.
So it could go. Yes, but no, you're exactly
right. And you know, she'll say, I
don't understand why he just can't blank why I have to.
And he's like quit talking to melike you're my mother, right.
And they're engaged in that dynamic all the time and they go
(21:28):
there so fast. I mean, it's just instant when
they're activated and they're definitely struggling intimately
because mom and five year old iswhat's showing up in this
relationship all the time. So it's really interesting
stuff. You use the word narcissistic,
narcissistic personality and youcould spend an hour on social
(21:49):
media and it's everywhere. I mean, we're, you know,
everyone's going to label everyone something.
And I personally find a lot of labels disturbing.
Personally I totally agree because I think they either give
someone an I think they give someone an excuse to stay in and
the other person the excuse exactly.
(22:10):
So one is, well, that's him or her and then you can play your
role, so. So what I what I see often
narcissistic personality disorder as classified by the
DSM 5. Right?
Like if we were to look at it from the psychological lens.
I agree, toss out the labels. There's not many.
Absolutely. There's a lot of selfish people.
(22:32):
There are a lot of annoying people.
There are a lot of people more willing to say what they want
and not then you know, and a lotof people who aren't willing to
say what they want. There are willing people who are
verbally loose with their lips, you know.
What I see? Doesn't make everyone a
narcissist. So I say it it's an emotional
immaturity. It's typically an I am damaged
(22:54):
primal wounder or an incapable primal primal wounder.
Again, my research is not fully developed on this yet, but this
is what I'm trending. Into what you're What you're
saying is very interesting. And and then they're maladaptive
response to that primal wound ishyper control of others
manipulation, right? And these are tactics that they
(23:15):
have learned as part of that hotstove survival.
And so it can be really a mess if we have a damaged with an
insignificant or a powerless with an incapable, right.
Like when you start to see like you were talking about the two
getting together. If I have a powerless wounder
with an incapable wounder then it gets real toxic very fast.
(23:38):
Well, you just used my other least favorite word.
Toxic. No, because.
I like to say to people, listen,instead of calling everybody
toxic, can't we just say oil andwater don't mix?
And you know, nobody has to likeme.
I have to like me. That's my number one thing.
I have to like me. You don't have to like me.
But let's all try to have a conversation and we can agree
(24:01):
that we disagree. And if we agree, we disagree on
enough, well, maybe we should just go our death separate ways
because we're just not going to find that groove that makes us
that intimate love connection. I love that and an example that
I use with my clients is I say you can look outside and say the
sky is white. I can look outside and say the
sky is Gray. You can look outside and say the
(24:21):
sky is blue. And the bottom line is we're all
right. That is our perception of our
world. And where we get into problems
is when I try to change your mind about that, that's when
things get toxic, right? So what we need to do instead is
figure out why do you feel that way?
I'm really curious. Why do you see the sky as white?
I definitely see it as Gray. So I'm, I'm really curious of
(24:42):
your perspective. I'm not going to try to change
your mind, but if we have to go on the 5:00 news and tell
everybody what color the sky is,we're going to have to find
something we agree on. Maybe we agree it's not raining.
Maybe we agree there's no sun today, you know, right.
Like so, so we're looking for tomove out of toxic land.
We're looking for where we agree.
And we're not trying to change our partners mind or whoever
(25:05):
we're in relationship with theirmind.
We're simply just trying to get curious about their perspective.
And and couples suck at this, right?
Like you, you would never go into Starbucks and ask the
breeze to how's your day? And they would say, oh, it's
terrible. And you'd be like, OK, well, let
me tell you about my day. You would be like, Oh my gosh,
I'm so sorry to hear that. Right?
We would affirm, we would acknowledge, we would validate.
(25:27):
And we might not agree with them, but we can at least hold
space to validate them. And we don't do that with each
other. And that's how things get so
toxic so fast. Well, I'm always amazed with
people that are in business thattell me I'm a great negotiator.
I'm a great negotiator. I negotiate all day long.
Great. So why is your marriage falling
apart? You know, apparently there's
(25:51):
some gaps in that negotiation ability.
Yeah. Right.
So let's look at those. Yeah, right.
That's that's fantastic. Yeah.
I love that. You know, and it's really funny
because it, it is a recurring theme.
You know, we, we know the thingswe're good at and often we think
we're really good at work in different areas.
But when it translates into those more intimate moments, the
(26:13):
most important ones, we don't want to ask for what we want.
It's a, you know, it's A and as you're breaking it down into
personalities, would you say there are people that are more
likely to ask what they want andless likely and more likely to
just. Oh yes.
Oh, you don't even notice what Iwant, which is the worst of them
(26:35):
all. Yeah, and the Undeservers and
the powerless wounders are and the outsiders are really
terrible at voicing their opinion and the others will
voice their opinion and then they'll regret it.
So they'll over voice their opinion and it's oh, I probably
shouldn't have spoken up. Although I will say, you know,
(26:55):
there I think that upbringing does tie into that right?
Like be not. So what is it seen and not heard
or whatever, you know, those sorts of narratives that we
carry throughout as well. So I think environment does play
into it as well. But they're it's fascinating
when you learn your primal woundand you start to see all the
ways it trickles out in your life and how you show up or
(27:17):
don't show up because of that ticker tape or the pre
activations that are constantly running.
What would you say to someone who you've identified their
primal wound, you're pointing out their behaviors, but they
keep going back to that hotspot in their youth, for example, or
whatever it is. Using your words, how do you say
(27:41):
you know what time to get present?
You know, it's it's the pee is pause.
And I think that is the hardest thing to do because the
activations happened so fast. And so I feel like more often
than not, what I'll see is someone will shoot off that
nasty text so fast. You know, they'll do something
so quickly in protection. And if you could tattoo this on
(28:04):
your inner arm and look down, you would go story I'm telling
myself is that, you know, I'm damaged, I'm unlovable.
And and then you can take that pause and then you can do all
the rest of the steps. And you I have clients that
won't move out of it. They'll never even get to the
pause. Some of them are so protected
(28:24):
and guarded of their child that they'll stay in a parent
responder. They won't even get to like a
teary part where they can even recognize that they're sad about
the way that they're feeling, right.
They're just so hard on themselves.
So it so that is all part of it.And and there are people that
will stay stuck in the immediatelash out response or the
immediate withdraw response. It takes a level of emotional
(28:48):
maturity and desire to be able to step out of it.
I'm envisioning your future jewelry line.
OK. Speaking so you take the
complete opposite of you know I'm unworthy.
I am worthy. Yes, yes, and and get in the
brace, yes. Even if they're rubber, I bet
(29:09):
they'd be best sellers. Exactly.
The primal wound bracelet. It's your primal wound bracelet.
Yeah, there it is, right there. It is no, no, no, no, no, no.
You lift the script. You got that feeling?
Pause. Look at your wrist.
Take a breath. Take a breath.
Story I'm telling myself is, oh,that's right.
I am worthy. Yeah, I am worthy of saying no
right now because I need this time for myself and I don't have
(29:30):
to apologize about it. I can simply say thank you for
understanding. Yeah.
When you flip the primal wounds,can you do it that way?
They become a superpower. So it can be.
It's kind of like a duality instead.
If I'm unworthy, I am worthy. Instead of I am.
Undeserving. Undeserving.
I am deserving. Of this raise, of this
(29:52):
promotion, it absolutely becomesa superpower.
You know, my primal wound is I am insignificant.
And so I run around the planet trying to make myself feel
significant, right? I'll go do a 7000 nautical mile
book tour to prove to myself that I'm significant so the
journey doesn't end. And that's why this is called
the Wounds to Wings book tour, because it's really about taking
(30:15):
my own wound and turning it intoa superpower, something that's
going to have positive change for other people, right?
So it starts as I'm insignificant, I better do
something significant. But then if you, if you find the
in deep internal positive motivation, then you can
actually turn it into something that's going to help a lot of
(30:37):
other people, something that's going to help yourself,
something that's going to elevate your life, right?
You can. You can tweak the wound to
actually work for you and not against you.
You know you, I love that you just said that because I have
always believed that those things that could either, you
(31:01):
can either go through your wholelife framing them as you know
what was me? I'm just screwed.
My parents did this to me. Life did this to me.
Or you can flip it into another direction.
And I remember having the first light switch moment.
I was getting my hair dyed some horrific color back in the 80s
when I had every horrific color and which is why it's silver
(31:22):
now. But I was in a salon and I
remember reading Rolling Stone magazine and it was an Annie
Lennox and Dave Stewart from theEurythmics and they were being
interviewed by could have been Dave Marsh or Pete Travers,
whoever was writing for them at the time.
And they said, you know, you guys really didn't make it till
you were kind of old as far as rock'n'roll goes.
(31:45):
You know, it's not like they made it when they were 18 or 20
when all these different punk bands and new wave bands were
making it. They were close, closer to 3030
ish. And he said to him, what kept
you going? And he said low self esteem.
He said I had to prove it to theworld.
(32:07):
I had to. And the only way, if I could
prove it to the world, I could prove it to myself.
And I remember thinking, Whoa. Yeah.
Wow I am so glad it's taken a long time for my hair coloring
set right. It was this aha moment of not
just acknowledging the challenges in life, but owning
(32:29):
them as a benefit and embracing it as the oomph, the power, the
I'm going to get up on that stage and rocket.
The hold my beer moment. Yeah, that's right.
That's right. That's exactly it.
And so, you know, as a kid growing up in the in the trailer
in the woods, right? I don't matter.
You're nothing. And then it was, no, I don't
(32:50):
think I'm going to settle for that.
Right. But it wasn't until the Primal
wound framework that I put it all together and realized I was
doing the work. Just didn't know I was doing the
work. Yeah, I was figuring out how to
cook on a hot stove and not get burned, right?
Yep. Well, it's very, it's very
fascinating to me how you verbalized it and created the
different categories and within the categories, the parent, teen
(33:13):
and child. Yes, you know.
Because it's it takes it a step deeper, because you could have
one personality trait and we canall imagine when you look and
you say want to say to the otherperson, you know, you're acting
like my mother or don't you know, what are you?
What are you? A teenager can't control their
(33:34):
their, you know, emotions or a five year old who just wants,
you know, like, come on. So I could see, you know,
there's obviously we're humans were incredibly complex and no
two of us are alike. So the constant thing is
figuring out how to negotiate and being willing to say, you
know what? This is important enough to me
(33:54):
that I don't want to be right. I want the relationship.
I don't need to be right. I need the relationship or I
want the relationship. So it's that choice.
Well, and and couples really love it when they figure out the
primal responders, which is, youknow, child, teen and parent,
because then they can actually get involved in the repair.
So I'll often have a husband sayI tried to give her a hug.
She didn't want me to detect her.
(34:15):
I'm like, right, because she's activated in her teenager.
She's rolling her eyes and stomping out of the bedroom and
slamming the door. She doesn't want you hugging
her, right? Or then I'll have a, a woman
say, well, all I needed was a hug and he wouldn't touch me.
You know, she was activated in her child and he didn't know.
He's like, I don't, I don't knowwhat to do.
So when they start to figure it out, it becomes so much better.
(34:37):
And I really empower individuals.
Repair yourself, right? Have that playlist that you
throw on from when you were a kid or a teenager or now, or go
treat yourself to that fancy pair of shoes because your
parent is super activated, right?
Like when you start to realize you can actually handle to
repair yourself and then eventually you can invite your
partner in on it or your best friend or whatever and it works
(34:58):
out really beautifully. You, you hit on to me the most
important. I mean, you've raised so many
really important points during this discussion, but it's that
look at yourself. I always go back to the Golden
rule, the man. In the mirror.
You know, the man in the mirror,you know, you know that you have
(35:19):
to love yourself before you can start love, you know, as I would
have loved you, you know, you know, you've got to look at
yourself really closely and say,before I start, you know, or
they're like an Alcoholics Anonymous literature, which I
have always loved. There's so many good
expressions. You know, if you're pointing a
finger at somebody, there's fourpointing back at you.
You know, don't compare your insights to other people's
(35:42):
outsides. There's just so many good things
that if we could all just take that beat, that pause to look
and say, well, where am I comingfrom with this?
You know, why is that person pissing me off right now?
Why? Why can't I just let them be
them and me go take a walk around the block?
Yes, I always, I always tell people it's called insight not
(36:04):
outsight for a reason. That's a good line.
You got to look inside that could.
Have been your second book titlethere we.
Go. It's funny because a good, good
friend of mine, long time friend, he said your next book
is going to be called It's what you do next.
You know, it's, it's, it's not in the, it's what you do next
(36:25):
that matters most. I think there's huge truth in
that because, you know, I started off in private practice,
just working with individuals. Then by waves and how things
happened, I ended up working in a venture capital firm and then
working with CEO's of publicly traded companies and managing
the message of the companies. But it also became very personal
(36:47):
because maybe that CEO had to present to a board and then you
know, or you you get to know someone and you find out the
problems they're having at home.You know, it just happens.
Things unfold, but the insight and getting back to yourself
first, you know, the first rule of crisis management is take
(37:09):
that beat. Look at this as a different
situation that's never happened before.
And then it's what you do next that matters the most.
Exactly. And I say to our kids all the
time. In fact, I learned it from my
younger brother who was had his challenges and you know, he he
(37:30):
was testing the limits. Of the world damaged.
There wasn't a challenge he wasn't going to try.
From everything you know, you know the motor scooter in the
sump, the you know something. I would put money on the damaged
wounder, but anyway, go on. You know, and he would say, you
know, I make a lot of mistakes, but I try not to make the same 1
twice. There you go.
(37:50):
There you. Go and there's so much wisdom
in. This there is, you know.
It's that response. And you know, it's what I've
said to our kids over the years.Listen, you're going to screw
up. I screw up.
We all screw up. People make mistakes.
How are you going to recover? How are you going to say sorry
if you should say sorry and say it really sincerely, you know,
not just sorry, you know, right.Or throw that sorry and walk out
(38:14):
the room because I had to say it, you know, like give it some
substance, right? You know.
When my clients say that, when they say, well, I'm sorry, this
I said no, no, no, back it up. Why are you sorry?
I don't know. Because she's just ticked off
off. OK, well, then that's not a
sorry. You're not sorry about anything.
You're sorry that you're in the situation and fighting, but
you're not sorry about what justhappened.
(38:36):
Let's toss that out and come up with something else.
Right? And, and I, I like to teach my
clients to apologize for their part because it's much easier to
do that like authentically than it is to just toss out the I'm
sorry. And it's interesting you point
out for your part, you know, with whether it's clients or
(39:01):
kids that are navigating their 20s or with my husband, you
know, or any relationship I'm in, I always try to step back
and say, OK, what's my part? No, right, what's my part?
They're very rarely times when someone is 100% wrong, right?
OK, we've seen this recently in the news.
You kill someone, you're 100% wrong, period.
(39:22):
The end of story. I will never negotiate that on
that with anyone, you know, because there's a point you can
discuss things. You can turn the page, you can
walk away, you can say they should be arrested.
That's different than, you know,acting out on that violence.
And it's funny when somebody hasto step back and say we're not
(39:45):
funny. It's the responses can be funny
when you can get someone to really look and say, well, I
just walked in the room. I'm like, well, you got to do a
little better than that, yeah. Yeah, there was more there.
Come on now, let's go a little. Into the room.
How were you stomping your feet,right?
You know what did your facial expressions?
Right. That's right.
(40:05):
Absolutely. I just walked in the room and
she was ticked off. Yeah, actually she picked up on
those 11,000,000 bits of data that you were dumping, including
that glare or the lie role or whatever.
Yeah, it's fascinating. And you know, in the my part, it
also empowers people to not haveto change their partners
experience of their wound, right.
(40:26):
So yeah, that sucks that you're activated and not feeling good
enough. I didn't do that.
However, my part might be such and such blank and blank.
And then you can really start toseparate, you know, the ways in
which we show up. And that's when you can actually
become a team. And gosh, that's got to feel
tough to feel like that. Yes, that's because somebody
(40:46):
told you to back off the car in front of you.
You feel not good enough. Shoot, that's a that's tough to
go through life because if somebody tells me to back off
the car in front of them, it doesn't bother me a bit.
Right, like that is such a good example.
I think a lot of people will really do that.
You know. Because it's so simple and it's
so visual and I don't know any couple that doesn't somehow say
(41:10):
he drives like a maniac or she drives like a maniac, or she
never should have gotten her license or he thinks he's for
stopping, right? I'm looking at my partner on
screen because we've had this activation moment on the way to
the airport. Yeah, it happens.
It happens. It happens.
The other one that cracked me up, I've said this on another
(41:33):
podcast, but David Coverdale from Whitesnake post some very
hilarious memes. Some.
Really. Huh.
I'll have to check him out. I don't even know how he ended
up in my feet, but some just downright my husband will say,
what are you laughing about? I'm like, Oh my gosh.
She posted another one, but one was a man and a woman in a car.
And there's a thought bubble over the.
(41:54):
The brain bubble, I have that inmy book, yes.
And she's and it says. I realized he was right 99% of
the time, but I just didn't likehis tone of voice.
This is this is literally the crux of the Primal Moon book.
This is it right here. The brain bubble and then the
tone of voice is the parent responder usually.
(42:15):
So yeah, that's you nailed it ina meme.
There it is. We'll give David.
Credit, We'll give David credit for that one.
Or wherever. I'm going to have to go grab
that. And it's very funny because, you
know, it's amazing to me how, you know, when, whenever someone
will relay a situation to me. Yeah, in a, you know, we're in
(42:36):
a, they're having a crisis at home or at work or in any
situation. And they'll relay it.
And they'll always say, well, you know, I said to them, you
know, why do you have to do that?
Right. You know, did, was that really
necessary? You know what I'm like?
Did you actually use that tone of voice is?
That the way you did it, yeah. Is that the way?
I don't question Those are the words you use.
(42:58):
Right. But was that the tone?
Was that your facial expression?You know, was were the eyebrows
going up and down, you know, with could you do that great
Vivian Lee, where an eyebrow goes up and down, you know, did
you give him some of this or theneck?
No, I can't do the neck. I want to practice.
The neck Can you happen to have 8?
(43:21):
I don't know how to get the. Neck to the side.
I want to do that one, yeah. I don't know how to do it
either. But I've tried it's not working.
Yeah. Just for the kicks of it to be
able to pull that out sometime. That one I got from my daughter
though. I don't even know how they do
it, it's so fast. But all of that, you know, the
(43:42):
body language, the that comes into a conversation that can
either elevate it or make it, you know, down the drain fast.
Yeah. And I think that's the part that
at least with the the reset program that I have, you get
clued into all of those little things that start in your body
(44:02):
before your brain's considering anything.
So it's the jaw clenching or that you know, you feel you feel
it as a response because of their non verbal cues, which is
I think 78% of all communication, right.
So when your body is detecting that you're already going into
that pre activation and it just takes someone walking through
(44:24):
the door with the look and you're on guard, you know, and
it's that quick. And so that's where I really
teach my clients. It's important to slow it down.
And you know, I took a a Coast Guard class once on boating and
it's, I don't know, some 40 pagebook and all these different
questions. And the only thing two things
that I took away from that were nothing bad happened slow and
(44:47):
red right returning. Yes, slow down.
Yeah, keep the no way. Slow, right.
So, so from there, you know, you're you're bringing a boat
into the dock. You do it slowly and you're
going to have a much better response.
And so part of the primal wound book includes talk tactics,
(45:09):
which is like, hey, if you can crisscross applesauce, sit on
the floor. If your knees can be touching
one another, you're in a non defensive, non posturing
position. So you're more likely to be able
to engage in conversation. If you feel yourself having to
start to stand up right, that isa clue that you are becoming
activated because you're starting to need to get away
from the situation. If you're pulling your hand off
(45:32):
your partner and when you're talking calmly and suddenly I
don't want to be touching you, it's not it's so now it's
defensive posturing position, you're moving away.
Those are clues that your body is telling you this is unsafe.
And so when you learn these kindof quick, easy ways to be in
conversation, setting meeting time limits, right, we can't
have conversations drag out for three hours.
(45:53):
It's just not healthy. All these little things just
really elevate the conversation.They elevate the relationship
and they help people get from point A to point B on topics
that they've maybe completely avoided or have been
stonewalling one another on for years.
You hit on so many really excellent points in this book.
(46:15):
We're talking about 7 Primal Wounds, your new book, and you
you hit on so many things because you're not just
identifying, you're giving a framework to work with, and that
alone should make it a best seller.
Put it into practice, but you know.
That's not necessarily how old books go.
They, you know, true, very true.You know, I have thousands of
(46:38):
books. I've literally read thousands of
books. And it's always interesting to
me that some people are really good at pointing it out.
They're good at telling people how you can recognize it in
yourself or other people, right?But not necessarily.
What are you going to do when you encounter it in yourself?
What are you going to do when you encounter in another?
How can you take that breath, Take that beat?
(47:00):
The badam pause and do somethingwith it because it's what you do
next that matters the most, right?
And I I think that this was the big thing is, you know what
couples that I work with and clients that I work with.
I mean, I have people that are even entering the dating world
or looking for a new job. You know, we apply the primal
wounding to everything. When they first learned the
wound, they had the aha moment of, Oh yeah.
(47:22):
And then they're like, well, what do I, how do I, I'm like,
don't worry, I got you, Boo. We have a plan.
And, and once they learn, I mean, I teach them how to
communicate differently using the framework of their wound as
part of the language, because otherwise they lose their voice,
they're afraid to speak up. So we actually have like really
graceful language that they use with their wound specifically in
(47:44):
mind. And so it really becomes really
a powerful tool for all decisionmaking and all relationships.
But I had a client tell me I absolutely love this client.
And she said, because I always say we're aiming for progress,
not perfection. And she said, I'm done with
that. And I said, OK.
She said, my dad told me something that I like better.
I'm like, OK, you tell me what it is.
(48:05):
She said aim for excellence because excellence is something
that you can continue to work toward.
And I liked that better. Yeah.
Because progress is kind of likethe path, but excellence is
striving for or, but you can have some flexibility within it.
And I like that a lot. So aiming for excellence.
I'm like, that's good. We'll, we'll do that.
(48:26):
We will aim for excellence. It's going to be tough to top
that, but we're down to like ourlast two or so minutes of this
show. It always goes way too fast and
I have really enjoyed this conversation.
What would be your words for Hope for someone who's
struggling with themselves or a relationship?
(48:48):
Obviously they should start withreading your book because it
would help give them a road map,but what would What would be
your MMH like? You can do this, and here's why
and how and why it's worth it. I simply tell people, you're not
broken, you're actually working very well.
We just need to harness it in a little bit different of a way.
(49:09):
And I think that that is something so special because so
many people feel like they're broken, like there's just
something wrong with me. No, you're working actually
excellent. Your brain is doing everything
it is meant to do to keep you alive and protect you, and we
can harness all of that goodnessinto something really amazing.
So that's my, that's my 2 bits. That that's a real good 2 bit.
(49:35):
That is a very good because I I couldn't agree with you more.
You're not broken. You're not broken, you know we
you just need to get your copingmessage mechanisms of how you
can best navigate the world because.
That's right. Yeah.
The I am damagers. They, they, they love to get
addicted. They love to, to do crazy
things. They, you know, and then they
(49:56):
affirm that belief that I'm justunlovable.
I'm damaged. I'm, you know, a menace to
society. But when they realize that
they're not broken, that's just their maladaptive choices, then
we can make different choices. They just need the little
bracelet. There you go, which I'm telling
you, you could do the Super simple rubber ones.
I love it. You know my.
(50:17):
The live strong, but the primal wounds.
There we go. Primal wounds on one side or on
the inside or the back, and thenyour message on the front.
Love it, love it I. Mean you could have those to
market in a week. Yes, I think I will.
And I have no doubt people wouldwear them.
Probably, yeah, I love it. I I absolutely love talking with
people that get psychology. So thank you so much for having
(50:39):
me on your podcast. Oh my gosh, this was a pleasure.
I've been speaking with Doctor Michaela Johnson this she is the
author of Seven Primal Moons. I highly recommend you get this
book. There will be all kinds of
links, so you can follow her on social media, get onto her
website, learn more about what she's doing.
(51:00):
And thank you. This was really a great
conversation. I enjoyed it.
Thank you. Thank you, everybody.
I'm Diane Grissell. This is the Silver Disbedience
Perception Dynamics podcast we've been recording in iconic
Manhattan Center on West 34th St. in New York City.
And I hope you hit subscribe. And again, definitely check
(51:23):
below in the copy so you can find all kinds of links to learn
more about what we've been discussing and share this
because there's such good content here.
It can only make the world better.
And isn't that what we'd all like to do?
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics
Two Guys (Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers). Five Rings (you know, from the Olympics logo). One essential podcast for the 2026 Milan-Cortina Winter Olympics. Bowen Yang (SNL, Wicked) and Matt Rogers (Palm Royale, No Good Deed) of Las Culturistas are back for a second season of Two Guys, Five Rings, a collaboration with NBC Sports and iHeartRadio. In this 15-episode event, Bowen and Matt discuss the top storylines, obsess over Italian culture, and find out what really goes on in the Olympic Village.