July 7, 2025 • 50 mins
The Evolution of Comedy with SiriusXM's Jack Vaughn | Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics Podcast
In this episode of the Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics podcast, host Dian Griesel aka @SilverDisobedience interviews Jack Vaughn, Head of Comedy Programming at SiriusXM and an iconic figure in the comedy industry. Jack shares his journey from independent music label management to revolutionizing Comedy Central Records, signing renowned comedians such as Jim Gaffigan, Amy Schumer, and John Mulaney. The conversation delves into the role of comedy as a cultural force, its evolution over the years, and the challenges comedians face in the digital age. They also touch on the next big thing in entertainment, magic, and its potential rise in popularity. This episode is a deep dive into the mechanics and impact of comedy, making it a must-watch for comedy enthusiasts.
Please SUBSCRIBE! I’m Dian Griesel, Ph.D. aka @SilverDisobedience to my hundreds of thousands of monthly blog readers. You can learn more about me here: https://diangriesel.com
But for starters…I am a perception analyst, hypnotherapist, author of 16 books and a Wilhelmina model. For 30 years I have helped my clients to achieve greater understanding as to how perceptions impact everything we do whether personally or professionally.
This episode was recorded in collaboration with The Manhattan Center, New York City, New York.
https://www.themanhattancenter.com/
Tune in for more information on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3XD5QTQSyxK6c6Qm4rorpe
OR
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SilverDisobedience OR
iTunes/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/silver-disobedience-perception-dynamics-hosted-by-dian/id1582857422
OR
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/diangriesel/
@SilverDisobedience on Instagram and Facebook
@DianGriesel on Instagram and X
SHOW RUN:
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:58 Jack Vaughn's Journey into Comedy
02:19 Starting Comedy Central Records
03:29 Challenges and Successes in Comedy Records
05:54 Evolution of Comedy and Notable Comedians
09:37 Comedy's Changing Landscape
11:21 The Pressure on Modern Comedians
14:34 Identifiable Voices in Comedy
22:04 Comedy's Shelf Life and Evolution
26:18 Comedy's Evolution and Challenges
26:53 The Rise and Fall of YouTube Comedy Specials
28:35 Comedy's Oversaturation and Future
29:41 Parallels Between Punk Rock and Comedy
33:33 The Role of Comedy Central and Industry Changes
43:52 Magic: The Next Big Entertainment Trend
48:57 The Magic of Comedy and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everyone. I'm Diane Grissell.
I'm also known as Silver Disbedience.
If you follow my blog, this is the Silver Disbedience
Perception Dynamics podcast where we interview really cool
people and let me tell you, you're not going to be
disappointed. Today, my guest is Jack Vaughn,
who's in charge of comedy programming at SiriusXM.
(00:21):
He is an icon in the comedy space who's been behind the
scenes. And you might not know who he
is, but you certainly know a lotof the talent he worked, has
worked with. And we're going to be talking
about comedy as a cultural forceand as a societal temperature
taker and also pressure release valve.
So thank you, Jack, for joining me.
(00:43):
Thanks. For having me, Diane, great to
see you. OK, comedy.
I love comedy, and apparently you do too.
Who doesn't? Well, you know, we could say
some people are losing their sense of humor, but we won't go
there yet. Fair enough, fair enough.
How'd you come to comedy? So I was running independent
music labels for about a decade prior to to getting the business
(01:06):
and I had always been a fan of comedy.
And the record label I was running was the independent
label of the modern swing movement.
If you remember that being hit for about 13 minutes in the mid
to late 90s and we were doing great.
But one day in, I think it's mid99, the whole world realized
(01:26):
they were tired of swing and thephone stopped ringing and we
couldn't sell another album. And so I had always been a big
fan of comedy, had comedy records growing up.
And I saw this guy Mitch Hedbergon I think it was Premium Blend
and he had a joke where he goes.I got a roll of Lifesavers in my
(01:47):
pocket and I can't wait. So I messed that up.
I, I, I, I'm doing a disservice to Mitch and I can't do that.
So he goes, I can't wait to get off stage because I got a roll
of lifesavers in my pocket and the next one is Pineapple.
And it was like that What he hadself released an album and I
(02:08):
found it online and I got it andI memorized it.
And I couldn't believe that there was something that good
that wasn't distributed, that wasn't out there.
People didn't know about it. So I basically approached Comedy
Central with the idea of starting a record label.
Now you got to remember that at that time, comedy records
(02:28):
weren't really a thing. No one was putting them out.
Yeah, I can't think of any. Yeah.
And it was a real challenge because we had to convince
stores to put them in, We had toconvince the artists to do them.
And so basically approached Comedy Central with the idea of
starting this label and they were kind of hesitant at 1st
and. What year would this have been
about? This is 2001 and I look young
(02:53):
now, but imagine me like 25 years younger.
I should have been having a propeller hat and a holding a
balloon. And so I, I didn't this, this
face doesn't carry much gravitas, but the, I, I sort of
pitched them and pitched them for nine months.
There was a woman there who was head of business development
named Holly Lim. And she, she got it.
(03:14):
And I don't, I don't think she necessarily believed in me, but
I believe in the concept. And so they said after nine
months, like we'll give you a little money to try this.
Come, come to New York. And so I came back to New York
and started it. And while it was challenging
because I had to do everything Idid the, the marketing and the
(03:35):
ANR and the artwork and the likeand the, you know, accounting
and all this stuff, it was really great because no one was
doing comedy records for the most.
And was Mitch the first one you tested this with?
He was one of them. So the first people we signed
were Bobcat Goldthwait, Dave Attell, Jim Breuer, Dane Cook,
(03:58):
Mitch. And there there were a handful.
And the Comedy Central had ATV show at the time called Crank
Yankers. It was a prank call show, or I
think they they like they insiston calling it a crank call show
with puppets reenacted by puppets.
And no one was planning to put out the audio.
So like, oh, people like prank call records.
(04:19):
So I put out the prank call record and it did great.
And that was a really auspiciousstart because it gave us a
little momentum as we were goinginto this.
And so had to go out to all of the record stores and say like
hey, you should have these, right?
Because at the time people didn't know names of comedians.
They just know like oh, Mitch Hedberg is that long haired guy
(04:40):
with the aviator glasses does the 1 liners.
So we had to spend a ton of money buying, pricing and
positioning at stores to get people's faces out.
These comedians faces out because if they had to go to the
cobweb basement of the store to find the comedy section, even if
there was a comedy section, it'sjust impossible to find.
(05:00):
But if you can bring it up to the front of the store, people
go like, oh, I recognize that guy from Letterman, I'm going to
buy this. And we had to price them very
aggressively, just like real cheap.
But it started to build and it started to build and build and
build. And within nine months, I think
the label was profitable. And within three years we were
top five independent label. And one of the best parts about
(05:22):
it is that we got to advertise the records on TV because Comedy
Central had remnant ad space that they couldn't sell.
So we got millions of dollars infree advertising by putting
these on on television. And the comedians had stand up
specials on Omni Central. So we can put lower thirds in
saying like, oh, get so and so'sCD in stores now.
(05:46):
And it was just fantastic because it was contextualized.
If you're watching that special,chances are you're going to want
to buy the album. And so, yeah, it was great.
And got to do the, you know, thefirst records from people like
Jim Gaffigan, Amy Schumer, Anthony Jesslik, Daniel Tosh,
Aziz Ansari, John Mulaney, the the list goes on and on.
And it was, it was a really fun time to be there because it was
(06:10):
it was really kind of Wild West.And there was all this talent
who is so good and just kind of bubbling under the surface
because we were coming off the observational comedy bust of the
late 90s. And there was this kind of.
That's an interesting phrase. The observational comedy bust.
Yeah, it's sort of like the the talking about how bad airline
(06:32):
food is, you know, the kind of what we now consider hacky
premises. And what I wanted to do with the
label at that point was kind of recontextualize it because you
had this notion of comedians in T-shirts and Blazers with the
sleeves rolled up on a stool in front of a brick wall.
And I really wanted these to look like punk rock records
(06:53):
because, you know, the the people that were coming up were
really doing interesting, edgy stuff.
And a lot of the, the sort of mindset on comedy didn't reflect
that. And so it was edgy and
interesting and dangerous and super funny and original.
And I wanted to convey that in in the packaging and kind of
(07:14):
help change the conversation a little bit around what comedy
was. And, and yeah, and it, you know,
the the comedy scene has just exploded because there was so
much great talent kind of going unnoticed in the underground.
The people who knew comedy knew it and got it.
But in terms of mainstream acknowledgement, there just
(07:37):
wasn't it. Wasn't there?
You know what's so funny when you talk about how comedy, you
know, exploded and the evolutionof it, You know, if you go back
and you think of, you know, the Rodney Dangerfield's or the
Jackie Mason's and Alan King where they were playing at, you
know, these huge resorts, you know, or Las Vegas, you know, or
maybe the Copacabana in New York.
(07:57):
And then it advanced to, you know, the nightclub scene and,
you know, comedians on the road night after night.
I mean, when when I worked with Jay Leno trying to book him on
the college circuit, he was on the road 350 nights.
You were booking Jay Leno on thecollege?
Circuit I was. Tell me about that.
No, no, no where. No, no, I want to hear.
(08:19):
That it was just, it was in 1985and Jerry Seinfeld was on the
road 300 days a year. Bill Maher was another one.
Adam Sandler. I mean, it was a great roster
and they were on the road 300, you know, every, every weekend,
(08:41):
you know when you'd get the 45 minute.
I remember sitting in the room when Jay Leno's contract was
negotiated for $1,000,000 for his first time.
And I don't think he had. I think he was Johnny Carson's
relief person on Monday nights when Johnny Carson wanted a
night off. So you see that kind of
evolution. And then now you've got Jim
(09:03):
Gaffigan, who you mentioned, whoI love.
You know what huge arenas, you know, Sebastian Maniscalco
selling at Madison Square Gardenmultiple nights in a row, Bill
Burke, You know, it's such a wild evolution.
You know, there's then there wasthis, you know, there's always
been the Saturday Night Live component to it.
But when you talk about the ups and downs of comedy, you know,
(09:26):
there were the times when everyone loved those casts and
said, oh, my gosh, what's happening with this cast?
Is comedy dead? Is it going to be funny again?
But there was always the glimpses, totally.
What do you think of all that? Well.
It's interesting because as you look at the history, there have
been waves of it and there's been ebbs and flows and each
time it comes back bigger. When I got into the business in
(09:51):
2001, 2002, let's say, and thesenumbers are going to be wrong,
but they're not going to be. I mean, I think they're
illustrative of kind of what's happened.
There were maybe 5000 stand ups in the country and there were
300 really good ones and they were pretty easy to identify.
And now say 25 years later, I would say that there are at
(10:14):
least 100,000 comedians in the country and it's really
complicated to figure out who they.
Are. Again, that number is probably
wrong. You're.
Probably not off I mean, I mean.It's.
I'm sure my kids think I think I'm a joker.
Stop. You are, I know you, you are a
joker. But it's it's just the industry
(10:35):
has changed so dramatically because, you know, back in the
day, if you got a 5 minute set on Ed Sullivan or Johnny Carson
or even Letterman in the earlierdays, your career could be made
because there are three networks, 10s of millions of
people watched it. It was a rocket to stardom
today. And even 20 when I started in
(10:56):
the business 25 years ago. It almost doesn't move the
needle. If you if you have one of those
late night appearances, it's really great to you know, for
your bona fides to say like, oh,these gatekeepers wanted to be
on the show. You should probably trust me to
play your club. But in terms of moving tickets,
moving albums doesn't doesn't have any effect.
And there are so many outlets now for comedians to have to
(11:20):
promote. I feel really almost terrible
for a comedian entering the business now because not only do
you have to be incredibly funny and incredibly original, you
have to do all of this stuff youdon't have.
You don't have to just do one thing your comedy.
You have to have a podcast, you have to do social clips, you
have to put out albums, you haveto be on the road all the time.
(11:42):
You have to do appearances everywhere.
You have to do all this stuff right for TV, do sketches
online. It's just so much stuff.
And I run into comics who think like, oh, if I just get this
movie role or I just get this TVappearance, it's going to rock
at me the stardom. And that never happens.
It's all a confluence of just Rd. dogging it, doing the
(12:05):
socials, doing the pocket, like doing all of this stuff and
being in front of everybody all the time, which also has a down.
I mean, it has a major downside in that when do you have time to
do your comedy? And you, I feel like a lot of
the, the, the comics, when I wasstarting out in the business,
they had done their thing, just worked in clubs and worked out
(12:26):
their act for years and years and years.
Yeah, right. And they worked on a specific
act for 10 plus years. Yes, and, and, and they could do
that because they were going from club to club.
I mean, that was my first exposure like 79 to 85.
I always say I, I often think ofthem as the comedy golden years
because you'd go to, I grew up on Long Island and you'd go to
(12:47):
Eastside Comedy, which was ownedby Rick Messina and Richie
Minervini. Richie Minervini started the
whole thing and he had Eastside Comedy and the other one in
Nassau County. And you had, and he just would
bring in the best people and youwould have, you know, Eddie
Murphy one night and then Bob Nelson do routines.
(13:08):
And you knew they were going to do the same routines most night
you went there and you started to memorize their routines, but
they would deliver them different every night.
And now I can't imagine the pressure on a comedian because I
just recently watched the Bill Burr special and I thought, OK,
that was pretty good. That was a lot of new content.
I never heard him say any of that before.
(13:29):
That was phenomenal. But I think about the pressure
to come up with an hour and a half show where people are
saying, oh, I've heard him say that before because everyone's
in this. Yeah, exactly.
How do you do it in a vacuum when you have people with
cameras at every one of your shows so hard and you have to
put out social content and you have to do all this.
And this is an art form that takes an artist probably 10
(13:54):
years to get mildly proficient at it typically.
And that's, that's not hyperbole.
It takes about 10 years to get not bad at it.
And it's a, it's a muscle and you have to do it every night
and you have to, you know, eat it over and over and over again.
And it's incredibly hard. But then when you're competing
against so many other people, because again, back in around
(14:16):
2000, there were C level comedians on the road making
$150,000 a year and, and living good lifestyles.
Like how do you do that when theamount of clubs, the amount of
venues for it is finite and you're competing for spots.
And yeah, it's just, it's, it's really difficult these days.
One of the, there were only two things I looked for at Comedy
(14:37):
Central Records. And this is going to sound like
nonsense and not believable, butit was the, it's the honest
truth. I looked for someone who is
really, really funny and someonewho had a very recognizable
voice because think of any comedian who is your favorite,
you know, immediately. You know their voice.
That's Rodney Dangerfield. You.
Can't get respect, you know? Lewis Black is going to be
(15:00):
furious about stuff, you know? You know what Maria Bamford is
going to be like, You know what Ron Funches is going to sound
like? You know what Dave Attell is
going to be like. You know almost immediately.
The persona is so identifiable and it doesn't have to be on the
nose like I'm Gallagher and I smash fruit.
It could be very subtle. But it's true, I can.
I never thought about that, but I can think of every comedian's
(15:23):
voice. Yeah, they're very, very
identifiable. Their point of view is
identifiable, and the more identifiable, the better chance
of success. I mean, just whether you love or
hate Andrew Dice Clay, he was a very specific persona and very
easy. Very easy.
To latch onto. Or have a protest.
(15:45):
And. Sam Kinison used the clubs used
to put him on when they wanted, when like they wanted the
audience to leave by midnight. They'd save him to be the last
act to go on because he'd go start screaming and people would
start to. He's not everyone's brand of
tea. Yeah, Yeah, it's totally.
But again, like so identifiable in that in the, you know, the
(16:08):
yeah, he and Judy Tenuta had that kind of like, oh, we're
just we're, we're talking in lowvoices and that are going crazy.
And that's very, you know, identifiable.
The problem with that, though, in the comedy space is that if
you're too identifiable, you burn out because people get
tired of that voice very quickly.
And then you have to move on to acting usually to to have
(16:30):
longevity if you're if you're a comedian.
And this again, I'm, I'm using broad strokes here, but this is
kind of, I feel like true for the most part.
If you're a comedian with a veryrecognizable voice, you can rock
it to stardom, but the longevitytypically is not there because
comedy, I feel like is largely about novelty and the
unexpected. And when you get routinized or
(16:51):
you know someone's voice, a lot of the time you get tired of it,
especially if you're over saturated with it.
So. It is funny, I mean, and even in
acting, how you can pick up intonation like, you know, I
could know whether it's, you know, Robert De Niro or Al
Pacino, who we can all say are great actors.
They've done great films, but I pretty much know exactly how
(17:14):
they're going to act in any movie.
You just know it. Yeah, you know exactly.
You know, totally. You wonder, is it acting or they
just, are they playing? You know, they're just Joe
Pesci, you know? Yeah, except when he went into a
comedy role, you know, but. No, that's exactly.
Yeah, that's a very interesting point.
What was the best performance you saw?
I'm jealous that I I'm a little too young to have been going to
(17:34):
the clubs in in that period, what was the best performance
or? There were so many because I
lived through Caroline's when Louis Ferrando was, well, first
Louie, he was booking Catch Rising Star, then went to book
Caroline's for years. You know, whether it was Colin
Quinn, you know, doing things, Larry Amoros going through all
the newspapers, I just think JoyBehar had a good routine.
(18:00):
Carol Leafer talking about the airline stewardess.
This was hilarious, You know, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.
You know, you know, or, oh, my gosh, the list goes on.
Chris Rock used to come on stagewith a hoodie all the way,
pulled down and walk on stage. You know what, like this and say
OK, I know you already have 9-1 in your cell phones and it would
(18:24):
break up the crowd with this nervous laughter.
He's so. Good.
Oh my God, he was, he was unbelievable.
Eddie Murphy. I mean seeing him back in the
mid 80s. So jealous.
I I so many people. Two or three copies of Eddie
Murphy's first two albums. They're just.
(18:44):
And, you know, now I, I mean, Bill Maher, the interesting
watching his total evolution of the different ways he's
approached comedy, Dennis Miller, you know, the list goes
on and on. I mean, you know, Adam Sandler
moving from, you know, comedy clubs to, you know, making
movies. That yeah, it's yeah.
(19:05):
God, so much good tell. It's so, you know, I really, I
feel like I'm, I truly feel incredibly fortunate that I
lived through a real golden age in comedy.
But I look now like I think Ricky Gervais.
I mean, I can't watch it withoutchoking.
I can't be, you know, he just buckles me up because.
It's. It's that candor that I love
(19:28):
from anyone. Yeah.
Because I always, you know, whenpeople get nervous in a crowd
or, you know, when I first approached you about doing this
show, I'd love to talk about this part, you know, where some
like the legalizing comedy, which JP Sears was saying, or
the censoring of comedy. We could all say there's a time
(19:49):
and place, you know, Jim Gaffigan.
What was it? The Al Smith dinner?
I mean, he fuck, he was hilarious.
You know the different ways he mailed people.
It's why we need that pressure valve.
And I think it also comedy makesus think about the things nobody
(20:09):
wants to discuss out loud. But when you hear it, I always
believed if you laughed at it onsome level, you agree.
Or you're debating that within you.
Sure. And it could be a joke about
your husband or your wife, you know?
Yeah, no, no, 100% what a lot ofpeople say like, oh, I get my
news from comedy and I'm going don't, don't do that, really
(20:31):
don't do that. But I feel like they're comedy
is so valuable in that it, they're so creative.
It provides a different way of seeing things.
And sometimes kind of world events get so ridiculous that it
takes someone to have that perspective or making fun of it
to go like, Oh yeah, that is, that is bananas.
(20:54):
Like, why are we, why are we doing this thing?
So I, I really do feel like it's, it's, it's super valuable
in that respect. And you know, there's so many
flavors of it, right? There's there's so many
different ways to experiences, so many different points of view
that yeah. And especially now, I mean, that
there's so much of it like it's,yeah, it's, it's just fantastic.
(21:14):
You know, and how it triggers funny interpersonal
conversations. Like if if I'm sitting in the
car with my husband and he knowswe're pulling up to some place
and I'm still putting my phone in my bag, he's like, what are
you, Missus Maniscalco? You.
Knew we were pulling up here. Yeah, my wife and I have quite
(21:39):
literally dozens of lines from comedians that we use with each
other on a daily basis because they're so resonant, right?
And they're and they're so true.It's.
Yeah, it's. I can't get off a plane without
thinking of Carol Lee for going bye bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye
bye. Yeah, and what and to that point
(21:59):
it's interesting too, because then, you know, SNL did that
later on and and now it's it's kind of in the it's in the
zeitgeist. And what it what's I feel like
not talked about a lot is that comedy does have a shelf life.
Because if you're really good and you come up with this really
good insight, it's going to be copied and repeated to the point
where you squeeze all of the, the novelty out of it.
(22:22):
And I, I go back because I collect all sorts of old comedy
records and a lot of them don't hold up, especially by the
bigger names, because the insights were so good and so
interesting. They got repeated over and over
and over again. So the, the, the novelty got
taken out of it. And an example of that is I
adore Steve Martin. He was the funniest thing in in
(22:47):
the world. And you know, I saw him do King
Tut at the AT just for laughs. Oh, really?
A few years back and time is meaningless.
I I this might be 10 years ago and I was watching it and as a
huge Steve Martin fan, I was watching.
I was like, I don't really, because Steve Martin was in my
(23:08):
mind the first real deconstructivist median, but now
everybody is a deconstructivist comic.
And so how do? You find deconstructivist
comedy. Just sort of taking a meta look
at it. It's a bit hard to describe, but
you know, really taking apart the structure of the joke
punchline, convention of the normal and just and rejiggering
(23:32):
it and reformatting it and adding absurdity to it.
And it was so good and he was sogood at it.
Everyone kind of adopted that style.
So what was novel when he was doing it is much less so now.
And I can't listen to those records anymore.
And in the same way, which is too bad because my adoration for
(23:54):
him is huge, but it, it's, this is an art form that doesn't stay
still, that doesn't that it justalways is moving on.
Because when you get comfortable, when people know
where the joke is going to go, or I've seen it too many times,
it ceases to be funny. And so you have to come up with
a new perspective, a new way of saying things, a new, yeah,
(24:17):
there's, there's been a movementin the last, I would say 10
years of taking a position that is on the surface indefensible
and then trying to find a way todefend it like Bill Burr is so.
Interesting. And and finding a funny way of
saying it and. That's a really good point.
And that's been, that's been like I've, I've found that some
(24:39):
of the funniest comedy because also by doing that, what a lot
of comedians do is they is they highlight by trying to find a
funny way to defend that position, they highlight why
that position is still indefensible.
Right. Exactly why it's exactly Yeah.
I don't have a good example of that because I'm not smart
(24:59):
enough. But he nailed that in his show
in the recent the recent specialhe's got out.
I'm trying to think of an example he did, but I know
exactly what you're talking about.
He's really good at that. And that is such a novel way to
look at, you know, to, to perform comedy and, but at a
certain point that is going to get tired and we'll move on to
(25:19):
something else. Where do you think George Carlin
fit in with that? I don't know, I think he he was
a he was a force unto himself. And it's hard to pin down George
Carlin because his career had such an arc and he sort of he
moved with the times, which I feel like is why his career
lasted as long as it he was so good and updated and reiterated
(25:44):
and you know, and just and changed once things started to
get stale. It was it was so good.
So I don't, I see him kind of ina league of his own standing
aside from everything, because his path was not.
I mean, he did a little Hollywood acting, but he he was
just a pure place. Stand up.
Well, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
(26:05):
Oh, right, I. Forgot that, it was just
interesting to see him there. Like what?
But but yeah, I, I, yeah, he's just a force.
And I, I don't know how he fits in into all that other than just
being a luminary in the business.
But yeah, anyway. What, what's your prediction on
the arc of comedy over the next few years?
(26:26):
Because as you said, you've got this disintermediation because
you've got all these channels the, you know, the Internet, you
know, are you an Internet famousperson or you, you know, does
somebody know you from TV? I don't know and I wish, I wish
I could figure that out. It's just the prognostication is
tough. My one concern is that there's
(26:46):
so much of it and they're so it's.
It gets crappy. It gets crappy it.
Really does. There's a lot that's just not
funny. It, it's, it's true.
And what has happened was so Mark Normand was one of the
first people to use YouTube to put, to release a comedy
special. And I, this was five or seven
(27:07):
years ago and everyone, all these comedians would talk about
them using the Mark Norman modelbecause he got something like 10
+ 1,000,000 views in the first month or something.
It was enormous. And no one had, really.
Excused my ignorance. Is he a comedian or was he a
producer? Yeah, I've never.
Heard he's a New York comedian. Utterly fantastic checking out
Yeah. Mark Normand And So what
(27:30):
comedians did was like, oh, I'm going to drop my it did so well
that the next special was on Netflix and it he, you know, he
multiplied his ticket sales as aresult of how on YouTube and
everybody's seeing it and YouTube is like, whoa, people
like this, we're going to put these into the algorithm and
really feed them to people because these this is great
(27:50):
content that people like that isfantastic.
A lot of comedians put their specials up.
They got a lot of viewership from it.
But what happened was with everything, it got oversaturated
with less than stellar specials.YouTube pulled back the
algorithm. They want to be a less profane
platform now. So that also added to the
(28:10):
pulling back. Which I think is good.
I always appreciated the comedians that could do a great
show without. You don't need the profanity.
Yeah, I think it's less altruistic and more like we have
advertisers. We don't want to, you know, talk
about, you know, certain topics with with, you know, Coca-Cola
being the sponsor. But so there's so now it's it's
(28:31):
a lot harder to break out on YouTube than it was before.
So again, these things, these things come and go.
And because there's so many comedians by nature, there's
there's a lot of less good standup because, again, I feel for
these comedians because you can't just develop your career
in a vacuum. You have to be putting out
(28:52):
content from the jump or nobody knows you.
You won't get booked. Yeah, it's it's a lot harder
today to do it. So to answer your question, I
have no idea where it's going. My concern is that there's and
actually it's not really a concern.
I think a lot of of the people who are doing it are going to
kind of fall out and we might gothrough a bust period because
(29:14):
like we were talking about before, there's always been
waves of progressively bigger comedy cycles and.
Which is a lot like music, you know, when you have bands that
were the one hit wonder, you know, and, or a band that put
out a great album to follow thatup with the second great album
is tough. And in comedy, you're talking
(29:35):
about a 45 minute set, 100%, youknow, or hour and a half if
you're trying to sell out Madison Square Garden, you know,
tough. It is to follow.
That is a really great point too, because I come from the the
kind of the punk rock world. I had a punk rock record label
in the late 80s and early 90s and prior to Nirvana, Smells
(29:57):
Like Teen Spirit, punk rock was just operating in its own sort
of the asthma and the underground and and there were
these bands around the country. Again, pre Internet.
They were just doing their own thing and their own regional
markets and they were touring and really the only
communication was fanzines. And but the great part about
that is they were coming up withtheir own unique style and art
(30:20):
form, just without any influenceor hopes for success or caring
for success. So the art was really pure and
really good. Then Nirvana broke and a lot of
the big bands in the undergroundbecame famous because they were
so good and people wanted, you know, agitated guitar rock.
But what happened was all of these bands from who were who
(30:44):
were performing the underground at the time got famous.
And then other people came in, like other people who saw that
team spirit feel like, oh, my God, this is great.
I want to be a part of this. Yeah.
Got into bands and some of them could, or you had, you know,
heavy metal bands in Los Angeles, you know, stop using
Hairspray and stop start wearingflannel and moving to Seattle
and starting and grunge bands. And so you saw this small scene
(31:08):
explode. And then all through the mid 90s
there were a, a preponderance like there's all these bands
getting signed and there were hundreds and thousands of
alternative rock records being released and they were all fine.
They're pretty good. And it led to an oversaturation
(31:29):
and then kind of a collapse in the, in sort of the mid 90s,
which I feel like gave way to the this, you know, swing and
ska movement that we that we were running the label for
because people just, it was, it was a reaction to all of that
sort of oversaturation of punk rock.
And I feel like there's a great correlation with comedy because
(31:50):
we're at this point now, you know, you have a lot of these
new comedians who grew up on a lot of these luminaries in the
in the early aughts. And just we're getting this
oversaturation because it's suchan appealing genre.
And, you know, they're, they're not huge barriers to entry to
it. So I feel like we're kind of in
(32:11):
the oversaturation point and I don't know what that's going to
lead to, whether it leads to sort of a waning of interest in
in the genre or or what. But I mean, the good news is
there's ostensibly more talent than ever in this business, and
I think it's going to lead to some amazing comedy down the
road. What do you think create those
(32:33):
breakout moments for a comedian today?
Hard to say. Hard to say because what I've
seen, and again, this is not, this is not universal, but the
real difference between a reallygood comic and a great comic is
about 15%. And I've watched comics for
(32:56):
years kind of struggle and they're good.
But then at a certain point usually comes over a 234 year
period, they really crystallize their voice and that rockets
them to greatness. So I don't know that there is
one thing that that is is going to make someone big.
(33:19):
I think it's years and years andyears of crystallizing the voice
and joke writing and just propelling them to to
superstardom. Yeah.
I don't know if I don't know if you can answer this so you can
say you can move on like a politician.
Go to another question, let me let me try not to.
Be a But I'm just curious, you know, when you're thinking about
(33:41):
Comedy Central programming, whatwhat what are you looking for of
where you're saying, OK, this, this is good or this should go
on at this time of day or that time of day because of all the
different things that go into what you choose for programming.
So I I am not the the programmerand serious, I would probably be
(34:03):
terrible at it. We have a great talented team of
people who do the programming but and also people who I don't
do the evaluations. We have a great evaluation team
of people who listen to this. I'm more on the deal making side
I see in my career because I don't.
Trust. So who would you make a deal
with? What would it take to make a
deal with Jack? Well, in any aspect of your
(34:26):
comedy life, what in any ventureyou're doing, what are you
looking for in that talent? Do you know what it's?
It's going to sound disingenuousto say it's the exact same
thing. You have to be really, really
funny and really, really unique and identifiable.
I I think if anything, that might be the one thing that
stays constant in this business because this business changes
(34:51):
almost completely every 9 to 18 months.
Again, that sounds like hyperbole.
It really. Is why?
Because how do you? Why do you?
Why do you say that? Because you'd think that an
entire industry can't change that completely in that short a
period of time. But there are always new
(35:13):
outlets, new ideas, new buyers of content, you know,
distributors and and broadcasters are going in and
out of business. When I got to Comedy Central, it
was one of the proudest days of my life because Comedy Central
was so pivotal for me in. My life it.
(35:34):
Was the place you went for comedy and and.
But and innovative. Yeah, exactly.
And, and for, for years and, youknow, it had been declined for a
minute. And then Netflix has been on the
ascendance and other outlets andjust things come and go.
And it, it was just, you know, it, it who knows?
(35:55):
Like the, the platforms change, the way you distribute comedy
changes. Do you put it on YouTube?
Is Spotify going to come in and do video?
Is, is Amazon going to be more in the comedy space?
What's going to happen? Like, we don't know.
But they're always new buyers and there's, there are always
companies that are there in decline.
(36:15):
And so you just have to keep your ear to the ground and
figure out, OK, where is this going to go?
Where have the paths been blazed?
Where do we think this is going to go for the future?
And I don't envy anybody that because it's, it's, it's, it's
in such a constant state of fluxthat like who knows?
You know, at the, when I got into this business in about
(36:39):
2000, 2002, CDs were the number one format, right?
And CDs in hindsight, we're kindof a nightmare because you had
to manufacture them, you had to warehouse them, you had to do
color Seps and pricing and positioning and listening
stations and make sure that theyweren't.
If something sold out, you had to have more inventory.
And then it became digital and it was all iTunes and the cost
(37:04):
to shoot or to record an album dropped dramatically.
And then no one was doing TV specials.
And then there became a lot of outlets for TV and the cost to
shoot a stand up special droppedfrom like $150,000 to now you
know, you could shoot a special today for five, ten, $20,000 and
they look great and there are a lot more outlets for it.
(37:24):
You can have the world see it onYouTube.
And that is as an artist is utterly fantastic.
The downside is, and there's always a monkey paw downside is
that everybody can do that now, right?
And so how do you differentiate,differentiate yourself among all
of the people who are putting out this this content?
So anyway, I don't know if that answers your question.
(37:45):
I think that was a politician. No, it does.
You answered it well. I have a question for you also.
Then you asked me about my favorite show.
Do you have a favorite show thatcomes to your mind?
You probably have many, but whatwould be some that?
So I mean, there are there are so many and it's not really
(38:05):
often the ones that are sort of the big landmark ones in
history. They're just nights that are are
magic. I remember seeing John Mulaney
for the first time and just going what this is so good.
He his voice is so amazing, so unique and so talented.
The night I produced a record with Dave Attell called Skanks
(38:29):
for the Memories and this was one of the first records we.
Produced it's very punk name. It's one of the best comedy
records ever. And we recorded it at the Comedy
Works in Denver on Halloween. And I, I remember flying into
Denver and there was this stuff called freezing fog and just
driving through and it was eerieand crazy.
(38:51):
And at the shows, people had been drinking since about noon
and they were all coming in costume and the mood was just
electric. And Dave was crushing.
Every crowd was just bringing down the house.
I remember one night there were it got so rowdy, two women were
escorted away in handcuffs and it was just out of control.
(39:12):
And I always have a fond retroaction of that.
And there were lots of great Hedberg nights and.
Yeah, but just I guess for me it's it's seeing a comedian I
wasn't really familiar with and Justice going wow.
Because it's really easy for, I mean, maybe not easy, but just
(39:33):
often times you could just tell,you could see a comic and they
have it, they have the the energy, they have the point of
view, they have the timing, or it just works.
And it's kind of transcendent because humor is everything for
me. It's how I deal with stress, how
I deal with trauma. And it's a lot of people think
it's inappropriate to deal with like, like negative topics in a
(39:54):
humorous way, but I find it's the best way to address things
and I just love it so much. I think it released that nervous
energy. It's like if you saw somebody
fall down a staircase. How many times is somebody
standing there laughing? I think thinking about is
effectively hilarious to me. And I don't I mean, it's it's
just one of those things becauseyeah, I just especially with
(40:14):
tragic events, to be able to deal with it.
I mean, not in the moment, but just with humorous is kind of
the only way for me to process it.
Otherwise it would just be too too sad, too too tough.
You know, it's interesting you mentioned that because if I had
to pick you just triggered because I was sitting here
thinking what was my all time favorite show and I might even
(40:36):
get teary tell when I tell you this.
There was no one there that couldn't have been teary.
In recollection was sometime after September 11th.
Robin Williams played at Carnegie Hall and Roy and I went
with another couple and it was afantastic show.
(41:02):
But how it wrapped up at the end, I'll never forget it.
How do you wrap it up? Talking about the resiliency of
New York. And it was just one of those
(41:26):
moments where you say, This is why I love comedy and it's also
why I loved Robin Williams because he could take everyone
from that laughter and gently give everyone the biggest hug.
I mean, it was a it was that pressure relief, that societal
pressure relief. But to me, comedy is that magic
(41:50):
medicine. So valuable, so valuable.
Yeah. And he, he was so great at that.
Taking, taking, you know, arcs and going from that mania to
seriousness and warmth and, and everything.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I, I, I went to, to one of
those, those cardiologists. I remember when I was.
(42:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's such a, it's such a
skill to be able to do that, youknow, and to make somebody laugh
about things that are, as you said, you used a word before, I
can't remember what it was, the deconstruction of things that
are not funny. They're horrible in society.
They're wrong, right? But add that sense of humor,
(42:33):
make somebody laugh, bring it around, almost agree with it,
you know, drive it so home that you're almost saying, I can't
believe they're saying this. You know, how could they say
this? And then they Zing it and twist
it in that other direction. It's, it's such a yeah, it's
such a unique and incredible skill.
And it's like, yeah, I just, I just love it so much as an art
(42:55):
form and I always have. And I'm just thrilled that I get
to be a part of it tangentially because I'm not talented.
I wish I could do it, but just Ilove, I love being a fan of it
and helping to be able to amplify it.
What do you Since you're on the pulse, you've really picked out
a lot of different comedians over the years.
(43:16):
Since you know, noticed talent, help nurture talent, recorded
talent. Where do you think things could
go next? What are other areas within that
world of entertainment? You know what what?
What goes beyond punk? What goes on rock?
What goes beyond comedy? Well, it's, it's funny because
(43:38):
one of the few things I've been pretty successful at my career
is identifying interesting sort of niche areas that are doing
really interesting stuff and helping to to amplify it.
I feel like right now magic as acategory is kind of in that
(44:02):
space. New York is a big Ground Zero
for a lot of amazing magic talent.
And there are a lot of similarities in my minds with
comedy in that I feel like we'recoming off the the observational
comedy bus equivalent in magic. And there are a lot of really
cool and innovative effects artists doing really cool and
(44:26):
innovative stuff, just kind of mind blowing tricks.
And magic as a genre is just kind of bubbling up into the
under the surface. Like people don't think about
going to a magic show the way they do think about going to the
movies or stand up show or even axe throwing, you know?
But there is a small group of just really, really talented
(44:50):
magicians who are doing innovative new stuff in a in in
new ways. And I really think that magic
has the potential to be the nextbig category and have shot a
series of seven special or sorryof of eight half hour specials,
(45:12):
multiple magicians. You were a part of those.
And let me just say for the record, I don't know what
Cameron to look at. Diane was awesome on the show.
The the best ever and we've alsoshot 7 full hour magic specials
just on spec and are trying to to find a home for them because
(45:37):
the world needs to see this And you know, I'm wrong about all
sorts of stuff. I'm really hoping I'm not wrong
about this because it's just a great form of entertainment that
has not gotten it to do I think in recent years.
You know, for since I moved to the city over 35, more than 35
years ago, about I started hosting an annual Christmas
(46:00):
party, holiday party. And it, it's just gotten bigger
and bigger and more fun. And I started to maybe 20 years
ago, I started to have a music magician who would walk through
the party and, you know, intermingle with everyone.
And I am blown away when you have these magicians, first of
all, that can work in the round.Yeah, that can pull lifesavers
(46:24):
out of the air, you know, fly them around like Saturn.
And I'm telling you, there are no strings around that
lifesaver. So how that lifesaver is flying
around the air, that's magic, you know, Or I, I'm still
reeling over Matthew Fuhrman pulling out my engagement ring
from, you know, those old key chains that used to have the
(46:46):
hard metal clasp? They'd be like 4 across in that.
Fold. Yeah.
And like a folding leather wallet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're talking, and he
asked for my engagement ring. And I gave it to him nervously,
you know, and it ended up in hisback pocket in one of those
class that I remember as a kid, breaking my fingernails.
(47:09):
Everyone would be like, oh, can you get the keys?
Oh, I know. Exactly what you're talking
about. They were impossible to slip on
there. Yeah.
Now how did that happen when we were all standing around?
You can only say magic. Yeah, it's, it's, you know.
Or someone guessing someone's maiden name.
The Mentalists, the stuff those guys do.
So skillful, so skillful. And so we have, we have a few
(47:36):
magicians on the roster and the I never ask how they do an
effect. I try to figure it out, but I
know the work that goes into it.We have, we have these these
magicians who work for six, ninemonths on an effect and stay in
their apartment for 10 hours a day for six to nine months,
perfecting 1 trick. And what one of the some of the
(48:01):
pushback we're getting from TV networks who are saying no to
our magic specials is that everyone thinks that magic on TV
is just camera tricks. So magic doesn't work on
television, which is. I don't know Siegfried and had
got their start on watch. I mean, yes, they were in Las
Vegas, but the world was watching them on TV.
(48:23):
Exactly. It's I didn't question that it
was magic. It's nonsense.
And what we, the way we want to help reframe the conversation is
like, no, this is a craft that people do.
And the notion of having it be camera tricks or AI or special
effects is anathema to what thisis, which is a, it's a craft.
It's people who are skilled craftspeople doing this amazing
(48:47):
craft. And we just want to to help
amplify that because it's just you should see some stuff.
And you have, Oh my gosh, I would love it because I'm just
blown away by magicians. Magicians and comedy.
So it's an interesting tie in you're making because it's, it
is, well, to me, magicians, yeah, I'm sure they practice,
(49:09):
but to me, they're magicians. It's magic.
And I can't because I can't imagine it.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's jaw-dropping what they can come
up with and the way they figure out how to solve problems.
And yeah, so hopefully, hopefully this is something that
that will get its due in in the mainstream on a bigger scale
because there, there are some shows.
(49:30):
I would watch that. I would love to see that all the
whole series. Well please do, I hope there are
there are 1,000,000 more like you.
I hope they get on the air. I mean, I could see that as a
Netflix series that people wouldtune into or yeah.
Yeah. Paramount Plus it's He needs to
get onto one of those. Totally.
Yeah, it's yeah, it's good stuff.
So hey, hopefully that's that's where that's the next big thing.
(49:54):
Very cool. Well, Jack Vaughn, my gosh, what
a pleasure this has been. And time goes too fast.
Yeah, this. Thanks so much for having me.
This has been so much fun. I appreciate it.
Thank you. We got to talk about two of my
favorite topics, comedy for sure, and magic.
So much fun talking about. Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you everybody. I'm Diane Griselle.
This has been the Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics
(50:16):
podcast, and my guest has been the amazing, talented, creative
Jack Vaughn, who is somebody youwant to watch.
So there will be all kinds of links below this podcast.
You're going to want to pay attention.
You may even want to get in touch.
I don't know if that'll help youor not, but you might.
I'm around all kinds of info about him below this podcast.
(50:40):
Thank you very much. Thank you, Jack.
Thanks, Diane. Thanks everyone.
Subscribe.
Hello everyone. I'm Diane Grissell.
I'm also known as Silver Disbedience.
If you follow my blog, this is the Silver Disbedience
Perception Dynamics podcast where we interview really cool
people and let me tell you, you're not going to be
disappointed. Today, my guest is Jack Vaughn,
who's in charge of comedy programming at SiriusXM.
(00:21):
He is an icon in the comedy space who's been behind the
scenes. And you might not know who he
is, but you certainly know a lotof the talent he worked, has
worked with. And we're going to be talking
about comedy as a cultural forceand as a societal temperature
taker and also pressure release valve.
So thank you, Jack, for joining me.
(00:43):
Thanks. For having me, Diane, great to
see you. OK, comedy.
I love comedy, and apparently you do too.
Who doesn't? Well, you know, we could say
some people are losing their sense of humor, but we won't go
there yet. Fair enough, fair enough.
How'd you come to comedy? So I was running independent
music labels for about a decade prior to to getting the business
(01:06):
and I had always been a fan of comedy.
And the record label I was running was the independent
label of the modern swing movement.
If you remember that being hit for about 13 minutes in the mid
to late 90s and we were doing great.
But one day in, I think it's mid99, the whole world realized
(01:26):
they were tired of swing and thephone stopped ringing and we
couldn't sell another album. And so I had always been a big
fan of comedy, had comedy records growing up.
And I saw this guy Mitch Hedbergon I think it was Premium Blend
and he had a joke where he goes.I got a roll of Lifesavers in my
(01:47):
pocket and I can't wait. So I messed that up.
I, I, I, I'm doing a disservice to Mitch and I can't do that.
So he goes, I can't wait to get off stage because I got a roll
of lifesavers in my pocket and the next one is Pineapple.
And it was like that What he hadself released an album and I
(02:08):
found it online and I got it andI memorized it.
And I couldn't believe that there was something that good
that wasn't distributed, that wasn't out there.
People didn't know about it. So I basically approached Comedy
Central with the idea of starting a record label.
Now you got to remember that at that time, comedy records
(02:28):
weren't really a thing. No one was putting them out.
Yeah, I can't think of any. Yeah.
And it was a real challenge because we had to convince
stores to put them in, We had toconvince the artists to do them.
And so basically approached Comedy Central with the idea of
starting this label and they were kind of hesitant at 1st
and. What year would this have been
about? This is 2001 and I look young
(02:53):
now, but imagine me like 25 years younger.
I should have been having a propeller hat and a holding a
balloon. And so I, I didn't this, this
face doesn't carry much gravitas, but the, I, I sort of
pitched them and pitched them for nine months.
There was a woman there who was head of business development
named Holly Lim. And she, she got it.
(03:14):
And I don't, I don't think she necessarily believed in me, but
I believe in the concept. And so they said after nine
months, like we'll give you a little money to try this.
Come, come to New York. And so I came back to New York
and started it. And while it was challenging
because I had to do everything Idid the, the marketing and the
(03:35):
ANR and the artwork and the likeand the, you know, accounting
and all this stuff, it was really great because no one was
doing comedy records for the most.
And was Mitch the first one you tested this with?
He was one of them. So the first people we signed
were Bobcat Goldthwait, Dave Attell, Jim Breuer, Dane Cook,
(03:58):
Mitch. And there there were a handful.
And the Comedy Central had ATV show at the time called Crank
Yankers. It was a prank call show, or I
think they they like they insiston calling it a crank call show
with puppets reenacted by puppets.
And no one was planning to put out the audio.
So like, oh, people like prank call records.
(04:19):
So I put out the prank call record and it did great.
And that was a really auspiciousstart because it gave us a
little momentum as we were goinginto this.
And so had to go out to all of the record stores and say like
hey, you should have these, right?
Because at the time people didn't know names of comedians.
They just know like oh, Mitch Hedberg is that long haired guy
(04:40):
with the aviator glasses does the 1 liners.
So we had to spend a ton of money buying, pricing and
positioning at stores to get people's faces out.
These comedians faces out because if they had to go to the
cobweb basement of the store to find the comedy section, even if
there was a comedy section, it'sjust impossible to find.
(05:00):
But if you can bring it up to the front of the store, people
go like, oh, I recognize that guy from Letterman, I'm going to
buy this. And we had to price them very
aggressively, just like real cheap.
But it started to build and it started to build and build and
build. And within nine months, I think
the label was profitable. And within three years we were
top five independent label. And one of the best parts about
(05:22):
it is that we got to advertise the records on TV because Comedy
Central had remnant ad space that they couldn't sell.
So we got millions of dollars infree advertising by putting
these on on television. And the comedians had stand up
specials on Omni Central. So we can put lower thirds in
saying like, oh, get so and so'sCD in stores now.
(05:46):
And it was just fantastic because it was contextualized.
If you're watching that special,chances are you're going to want
to buy the album. And so, yeah, it was great.
And got to do the, you know, thefirst records from people like
Jim Gaffigan, Amy Schumer, Anthony Jesslik, Daniel Tosh,
Aziz Ansari, John Mulaney, the the list goes on and on.
And it was, it was a really fun time to be there because it was
(06:10):
it was really kind of Wild West.And there was all this talent
who is so good and just kind of bubbling under the surface
because we were coming off the observational comedy bust of the
late 90s. And there was this kind of.
That's an interesting phrase. The observational comedy bust.
Yeah, it's sort of like the the talking about how bad airline
(06:32):
food is, you know, the kind of what we now consider hacky
premises. And what I wanted to do with the
label at that point was kind of recontextualize it because you
had this notion of comedians in T-shirts and Blazers with the
sleeves rolled up on a stool in front of a brick wall.
And I really wanted these to look like punk rock records
(06:53):
because, you know, the the people that were coming up were
really doing interesting, edgy stuff.
And a lot of the, the sort of mindset on comedy didn't reflect
that. And so it was edgy and
interesting and dangerous and super funny and original.
And I wanted to convey that in in the packaging and kind of
(07:14):
help change the conversation a little bit around what comedy
was. And, and yeah, and it, you know,
the the comedy scene has just exploded because there was so
much great talent kind of going unnoticed in the underground.
The people who knew comedy knew it and got it.
But in terms of mainstream acknowledgement, there just
(07:37):
wasn't it. Wasn't there?
You know what's so funny when you talk about how comedy, you
know, exploded and the evolutionof it, You know, if you go back
and you think of, you know, the Rodney Dangerfield's or the
Jackie Mason's and Alan King where they were playing at, you
know, these huge resorts, you know, or Las Vegas, you know, or
maybe the Copacabana in New York.
(07:57):
And then it advanced to, you know, the nightclub scene and,
you know, comedians on the road night after night.
I mean, when when I worked with Jay Leno trying to book him on
the college circuit, he was on the road 350 nights.
You were booking Jay Leno on thecollege?
Circuit I was. Tell me about that.
No, no, no where. No, no, I want to hear.
(08:19):
That it was just, it was in 1985and Jerry Seinfeld was on the
road 300 days a year. Bill Maher was another one.
Adam Sandler. I mean, it was a great roster
and they were on the road 300, you know, every, every weekend,
(08:41):
you know when you'd get the 45 minute.
I remember sitting in the room when Jay Leno's contract was
negotiated for $1,000,000 for his first time.
And I don't think he had. I think he was Johnny Carson's
relief person on Monday nights when Johnny Carson wanted a
night off. So you see that kind of
evolution. And then now you've got Jim
(09:03):
Gaffigan, who you mentioned, whoI love.
You know what huge arenas, you know, Sebastian Maniscalco
selling at Madison Square Gardenmultiple nights in a row, Bill
Burke, You know, it's such a wild evolution.
You know, there's then there wasthis, you know, there's always
been the Saturday Night Live component to it.
But when you talk about the ups and downs of comedy, you know,
(09:26):
there were the times when everyone loved those casts and
said, oh, my gosh, what's happening with this cast?
Is comedy dead? Is it going to be funny again?
But there was always the glimpses, totally.
What do you think of all that? Well.
It's interesting because as you look at the history, there have
been waves of it and there's been ebbs and flows and each
time it comes back bigger. When I got into the business in
(09:51):
2001, 2002, let's say, and thesenumbers are going to be wrong,
but they're not going to be. I mean, I think they're
illustrative of kind of what's happened.
There were maybe 5000 stand ups in the country and there were
300 really good ones and they were pretty easy to identify.
And now say 25 years later, I would say that there are at
(10:14):
least 100,000 comedians in the country and it's really
complicated to figure out who they.
Are. Again, that number is probably
wrong. You're.
Probably not off I mean, I mean.It's.
I'm sure my kids think I think I'm a joker.
Stop. You are, I know you, you are a
joker. But it's it's just the industry
(10:35):
has changed so dramatically because, you know, back in the
day, if you got a 5 minute set on Ed Sullivan or Johnny Carson
or even Letterman in the earlierdays, your career could be made
because there are three networks, 10s of millions of
people watched it. It was a rocket to stardom
today. And even 20 when I started in
(10:56):
the business 25 years ago. It almost doesn't move the
needle. If you if you have one of those
late night appearances, it's really great to you know, for
your bona fides to say like, oh,these gatekeepers wanted to be
on the show. You should probably trust me to
play your club. But in terms of moving tickets,
moving albums doesn't doesn't have any effect.
And there are so many outlets now for comedians to have to
(11:20):
promote. I feel really almost terrible
for a comedian entering the business now because not only do
you have to be incredibly funny and incredibly original, you
have to do all of this stuff youdon't have.
You don't have to just do one thing your comedy.
You have to have a podcast, you have to do social clips, you
have to put out albums, you haveto be on the road all the time.
(11:42):
You have to do appearances everywhere.
You have to do all this stuff right for TV, do sketches
online. It's just so much stuff.
And I run into comics who think like, oh, if I just get this
movie role or I just get this TVappearance, it's going to rock
at me the stardom. And that never happens.
It's all a confluence of just Rd. dogging it, doing the
(12:05):
socials, doing the pocket, like doing all of this stuff and
being in front of everybody all the time, which also has a down.
I mean, it has a major downside in that when do you have time to
do your comedy? And you, I feel like a lot of
the, the, the comics, when I wasstarting out in the business,
they had done their thing, just worked in clubs and worked out
(12:26):
their act for years and years and years.
Yeah, right. And they worked on a specific
act for 10 plus years. Yes, and, and, and they could do
that because they were going from club to club.
I mean, that was my first exposure like 79 to 85.
I always say I, I often think ofthem as the comedy golden years
because you'd go to, I grew up on Long Island and you'd go to
(12:47):
Eastside Comedy, which was ownedby Rick Messina and Richie
Minervini. Richie Minervini started the
whole thing and he had Eastside Comedy and the other one in
Nassau County. And you had, and he just would
bring in the best people and youwould have, you know, Eddie
Murphy one night and then Bob Nelson do routines.
(13:08):
And you knew they were going to do the same routines most night
you went there and you started to memorize their routines, but
they would deliver them different every night.
And now I can't imagine the pressure on a comedian because I
just recently watched the Bill Burr special and I thought, OK,
that was pretty good. That was a lot of new content.
I never heard him say any of that before.
(13:29):
That was phenomenal. But I think about the pressure
to come up with an hour and a half show where people are
saying, oh, I've heard him say that before because everyone's
in this. Yeah, exactly.
How do you do it in a vacuum when you have people with
cameras at every one of your shows so hard and you have to
put out social content and you have to do all this.
And this is an art form that takes an artist probably 10
(13:54):
years to get mildly proficient at it typically.
And that's, that's not hyperbole.
It takes about 10 years to get not bad at it.
And it's a, it's a muscle and you have to do it every night
and you have to, you know, eat it over and over and over again.
And it's incredibly hard. But then when you're competing
against so many other people, because again, back in around
(14:16):
2000, there were C level comedians on the road making
$150,000 a year and, and living good lifestyles.
Like how do you do that when theamount of clubs, the amount of
venues for it is finite and you're competing for spots.
And yeah, it's just, it's, it's really difficult these days.
One of the, there were only two things I looked for at Comedy
(14:37):
Central Records. And this is going to sound like
nonsense and not believable, butit was the, it's the honest
truth. I looked for someone who is
really, really funny and someonewho had a very recognizable
voice because think of any comedian who is your favorite,
you know, immediately. You know their voice.
That's Rodney Dangerfield. You.
Can't get respect, you know? Lewis Black is going to be
(15:00):
furious about stuff, you know? You know what Maria Bamford is
going to be like, You know what Ron Funches is going to sound
like? You know what Dave Attell is
going to be like. You know almost immediately.
The persona is so identifiable and it doesn't have to be on the
nose like I'm Gallagher and I smash fruit.
It could be very subtle. But it's true, I can.
I never thought about that, but I can think of every comedian's
(15:23):
voice. Yeah, they're very, very
identifiable. Their point of view is
identifiable, and the more identifiable, the better chance
of success. I mean, just whether you love or
hate Andrew Dice Clay, he was a very specific persona and very
easy. Very easy.
To latch onto. Or have a protest.
(15:45):
And. Sam Kinison used the clubs used
to put him on when they wanted, when like they wanted the
audience to leave by midnight. They'd save him to be the last
act to go on because he'd go start screaming and people would
start to. He's not everyone's brand of
tea. Yeah, Yeah, it's totally.
But again, like so identifiable in that in the, you know, the
(16:08):
yeah, he and Judy Tenuta had that kind of like, oh, we're
just we're, we're talking in lowvoices and that are going crazy.
And that's very, you know, identifiable.
The problem with that, though, in the comedy space is that if
you're too identifiable, you burn out because people get
tired of that voice very quickly.
And then you have to move on to acting usually to to have
(16:30):
longevity if you're if you're a comedian.
And this again, I'm, I'm using broad strokes here, but this is
kind of, I feel like true for the most part.
If you're a comedian with a veryrecognizable voice, you can rock
it to stardom, but the longevitytypically is not there because
comedy, I feel like is largely about novelty and the
unexpected. And when you get routinized or
(16:51):
you know someone's voice, a lot of the time you get tired of it,
especially if you're over saturated with it.
So. It is funny, I mean, and even in
acting, how you can pick up intonation like, you know, I
could know whether it's, you know, Robert De Niro or Al
Pacino, who we can all say are great actors.
They've done great films, but I pretty much know exactly how
(17:14):
they're going to act in any movie.
You just know it. Yeah, you know exactly.
You know, totally. You wonder, is it acting or they
just, are they playing? You know, they're just Joe
Pesci, you know? Yeah, except when he went into a
comedy role, you know, but. No, that's exactly.
Yeah, that's a very interesting point.
What was the best performance you saw?
I'm jealous that I I'm a little too young to have been going to
(17:34):
the clubs in in that period, what was the best performance
or? There were so many because I
lived through Caroline's when Louis Ferrando was, well, first
Louie, he was booking Catch Rising Star, then went to book
Caroline's for years. You know, whether it was Colin
Quinn, you know, doing things, Larry Amoros going through all
the newspapers, I just think JoyBehar had a good routine.
(18:00):
Carol Leafer talking about the airline stewardess.
This was hilarious, You know, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.
You know, you know, or, oh, my gosh, the list goes on.
Chris Rock used to come on stagewith a hoodie all the way,
pulled down and walk on stage. You know what, like this and say
OK, I know you already have 9-1 in your cell phones and it would
(18:24):
break up the crowd with this nervous laughter.
He's so. Good.
Oh my God, he was, he was unbelievable.
Eddie Murphy. I mean seeing him back in the
mid 80s. So jealous.
I I so many people. Two or three copies of Eddie
Murphy's first two albums. They're just.
(18:44):
And, you know, now I, I mean, Bill Maher, the interesting
watching his total evolution of the different ways he's
approached comedy, Dennis Miller, you know, the list goes
on and on. I mean, you know, Adam Sandler
moving from, you know, comedy clubs to, you know, making
movies. That yeah, it's yeah.
(19:05):
God, so much good tell. It's so, you know, I really, I
feel like I'm, I truly feel incredibly fortunate that I
lived through a real golden age in comedy.
But I look now like I think Ricky Gervais.
I mean, I can't watch it withoutchoking.
I can't be, you know, he just buckles me up because.
It's. It's that candor that I love
(19:28):
from anyone. Yeah.
Because I always, you know, whenpeople get nervous in a crowd
or, you know, when I first approached you about doing this
show, I'd love to talk about this part, you know, where some
like the legalizing comedy, which JP Sears was saying, or
the censoring of comedy. We could all say there's a time
(19:49):
and place, you know, Jim Gaffigan.
What was it? The Al Smith dinner?
I mean, he fuck, he was hilarious.
You know the different ways he mailed people.
It's why we need that pressure valve.
And I think it also comedy makesus think about the things nobody
(20:09):
wants to discuss out loud. But when you hear it, I always
believed if you laughed at it onsome level, you agree.
Or you're debating that within you.
Sure. And it could be a joke about
your husband or your wife, you know?
Yeah, no, no, 100% what a lot ofpeople say like, oh, I get my
news from comedy and I'm going don't, don't do that, really
(20:31):
don't do that. But I feel like they're comedy
is so valuable in that it, they're so creative.
It provides a different way of seeing things.
And sometimes kind of world events get so ridiculous that it
takes someone to have that perspective or making fun of it
to go like, Oh yeah, that is, that is bananas.
(20:54):
Like, why are we, why are we doing this thing?
So I, I really do feel like it's, it's, it's super valuable
in that respect. And you know, there's so many
flavors of it, right? There's there's so many
different ways to experiences, so many different points of view
that yeah. And especially now, I mean, that
there's so much of it like it's,yeah, it's, it's just fantastic.
(21:14):
You know, and how it triggers funny interpersonal
conversations. Like if if I'm sitting in the
car with my husband and he knowswe're pulling up to some place
and I'm still putting my phone in my bag, he's like, what are
you, Missus Maniscalco? You.
Knew we were pulling up here. Yeah, my wife and I have quite
(21:39):
literally dozens of lines from comedians that we use with each
other on a daily basis because they're so resonant, right?
And they're and they're so true.It's.
Yeah, it's. I can't get off a plane without
thinking of Carol Lee for going bye bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye
bye. Yeah, and what and to that point
(21:59):
it's interesting too, because then, you know, SNL did that
later on and and now it's it's kind of in the it's in the
zeitgeist. And what it what's I feel like
not talked about a lot is that comedy does have a shelf life.
Because if you're really good and you come up with this really
good insight, it's going to be copied and repeated to the point
where you squeeze all of the, the novelty out of it.
(22:22):
And I, I go back because I collect all sorts of old comedy
records and a lot of them don't hold up, especially by the
bigger names, because the insights were so good and so
interesting. They got repeated over and over
and over again. So the, the, the novelty got
taken out of it. And an example of that is I
adore Steve Martin. He was the funniest thing in in
(22:47):
the world. And you know, I saw him do King
Tut at the AT just for laughs. Oh, really?
A few years back and time is meaningless.
I I this might be 10 years ago and I was watching it and as a
huge Steve Martin fan, I was watching.
I was like, I don't really, because Steve Martin was in my
(23:08):
mind the first real deconstructivist median, but now
everybody is a deconstructivist comic.
And so how do? You find deconstructivist
comedy. Just sort of taking a meta look
at it. It's a bit hard to describe, but
you know, really taking apart the structure of the joke
punchline, convention of the normal and just and rejiggering
(23:32):
it and reformatting it and adding absurdity to it.
And it was so good and he was sogood at it.
Everyone kind of adopted that style.
So what was novel when he was doing it is much less so now.
And I can't listen to those records anymore.
And in the same way, which is too bad because my adoration for
(23:54):
him is huge, but it, it's, this is an art form that doesn't stay
still, that doesn't that it justalways is moving on.
Because when you get comfortable, when people know
where the joke is going to go, or I've seen it too many times,
it ceases to be funny. And so you have to come up with
a new perspective, a new way of saying things, a new, yeah,
(24:17):
there's, there's been a movementin the last, I would say 10
years of taking a position that is on the surface indefensible
and then trying to find a way todefend it like Bill Burr is so.
Interesting. And and finding a funny way of
saying it and. That's a really good point.
And that's been, that's been like I've, I've found that some
(24:39):
of the funniest comedy because also by doing that, what a lot
of comedians do is they is they highlight by trying to find a
funny way to defend that position, they highlight why
that position is still indefensible.
Right. Exactly why it's exactly Yeah.
I don't have a good example of that because I'm not smart
(24:59):
enough. But he nailed that in his show
in the recent the recent specialhe's got out.
I'm trying to think of an example he did, but I know
exactly what you're talking about.
He's really good at that. And that is such a novel way to
look at, you know, to, to perform comedy and, but at a
certain point that is going to get tired and we'll move on to
(25:19):
something else. Where do you think George Carlin
fit in with that? I don't know, I think he he was
a he was a force unto himself. And it's hard to pin down George
Carlin because his career had such an arc and he sort of he
moved with the times, which I feel like is why his career
lasted as long as it he was so good and updated and reiterated
(25:44):
and you know, and just and changed once things started to
get stale. It was it was so good.
So I don't, I see him kind of ina league of his own standing
aside from everything, because his path was not.
I mean, he did a little Hollywood acting, but he he was
just a pure place. Stand up.
Well, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
(26:05):
Oh, right, I. Forgot that, it was just
interesting to see him there. Like what?
But but yeah, I, I, yeah, he's just a force.
And I, I don't know how he fits in into all that other than just
being a luminary in the business.
But yeah, anyway. What, what's your prediction on
the arc of comedy over the next few years?
(26:26):
Because as you said, you've got this disintermediation because
you've got all these channels the, you know, the Internet, you
know, are you an Internet famousperson or you, you know, does
somebody know you from TV? I don't know and I wish, I wish
I could figure that out. It's just the prognostication is
tough. My one concern is that there's
(26:46):
so much of it and they're so it's.
It gets crappy. It gets crappy it.
Really does. There's a lot that's just not
funny. It, it's, it's true.
And what has happened was so Mark Normand was one of the
first people to use YouTube to put, to release a comedy
special. And I, this was five or seven
(27:07):
years ago and everyone, all these comedians would talk about
them using the Mark Norman modelbecause he got something like 10
+ 1,000,000 views in the first month or something.
It was enormous. And no one had, really.
Excused my ignorance. Is he a comedian or was he a
producer? Yeah, I've never.
Heard he's a New York comedian. Utterly fantastic checking out
Yeah. Mark Normand And So what
(27:30):
comedians did was like, oh, I'm going to drop my it did so well
that the next special was on Netflix and it he, you know, he
multiplied his ticket sales as aresult of how on YouTube and
everybody's seeing it and YouTube is like, whoa, people
like this, we're going to put these into the algorithm and
really feed them to people because these this is great
(27:50):
content that people like that isfantastic.
A lot of comedians put their specials up.
They got a lot of viewership from it.
But what happened was with everything, it got oversaturated
with less than stellar specials.YouTube pulled back the
algorithm. They want to be a less profane
platform now. So that also added to the
(28:10):
pulling back. Which I think is good.
I always appreciated the comedians that could do a great
show without. You don't need the profanity.
Yeah, I think it's less altruistic and more like we have
advertisers. We don't want to, you know, talk
about, you know, certain topics with with, you know, Coca-Cola
being the sponsor. But so there's so now it's it's
(28:31):
a lot harder to break out on YouTube than it was before.
So again, these things, these things come and go.
And because there's so many comedians by nature, there's
there's a lot of less good standup because, again, I feel for
these comedians because you can't just develop your career
in a vacuum. You have to be putting out
(28:52):
content from the jump or nobody knows you.
You won't get booked. Yeah, it's it's a lot harder
today to do it. So to answer your question, I
have no idea where it's going. My concern is that there's and
actually it's not really a concern.
I think a lot of of the people who are doing it are going to
kind of fall out and we might gothrough a bust period because
(29:14):
like we were talking about before, there's always been
waves of progressively bigger comedy cycles and.
Which is a lot like music, you know, when you have bands that
were the one hit wonder, you know, and, or a band that put
out a great album to follow thatup with the second great album
is tough. And in comedy, you're talking
(29:35):
about a 45 minute set, 100%, youknow, or hour and a half if
you're trying to sell out Madison Square Garden, you know,
tough. It is to follow.
That is a really great point too, because I come from the the
kind of the punk rock world. I had a punk rock record label
in the late 80s and early 90s and prior to Nirvana, Smells
(29:57):
Like Teen Spirit, punk rock was just operating in its own sort
of the asthma and the underground and and there were
these bands around the country. Again, pre Internet.
They were just doing their own thing and their own regional
markets and they were touring and really the only
communication was fanzines. And but the great part about
that is they were coming up withtheir own unique style and art
(30:20):
form, just without any influenceor hopes for success or caring
for success. So the art was really pure and
really good. Then Nirvana broke and a lot of
the big bands in the undergroundbecame famous because they were
so good and people wanted, you know, agitated guitar rock.
But what happened was all of these bands from who were who
(30:44):
were performing the underground at the time got famous.
And then other people came in, like other people who saw that
team spirit feel like, oh, my God, this is great.
I want to be a part of this. Yeah.
Got into bands and some of them could, or you had, you know,
heavy metal bands in Los Angeles, you know, stop using
Hairspray and stop start wearingflannel and moving to Seattle
and starting and grunge bands. And so you saw this small scene
(31:08):
explode. And then all through the mid 90s
there were a, a preponderance like there's all these bands
getting signed and there were hundreds and thousands of
alternative rock records being released and they were all fine.
They're pretty good. And it led to an oversaturation
(31:29):
and then kind of a collapse in the, in sort of the mid 90s,
which I feel like gave way to the this, you know, swing and
ska movement that we that we were running the label for
because people just, it was, it was a reaction to all of that
sort of oversaturation of punk rock.
And I feel like there's a great correlation with comedy because
(31:50):
we're at this point now, you know, you have a lot of these
new comedians who grew up on a lot of these luminaries in the
in the early aughts. And just we're getting this
oversaturation because it's suchan appealing genre.
And, you know, they're, they're not huge barriers to entry to
it. So I feel like we're kind of in
(32:11):
the oversaturation point and I don't know what that's going to
lead to, whether it leads to sort of a waning of interest in
in the genre or or what. But I mean, the good news is
there's ostensibly more talent than ever in this business, and
I think it's going to lead to some amazing comedy down the
road. What do you think create those
(32:33):
breakout moments for a comedian today?
Hard to say. Hard to say because what I've
seen, and again, this is not, this is not universal, but the
real difference between a reallygood comic and a great comic is
about 15%. And I've watched comics for
(32:56):
years kind of struggle and they're good.
But then at a certain point usually comes over a 234 year
period, they really crystallize their voice and that rockets
them to greatness. So I don't know that there is
one thing that that is is going to make someone big.
(33:19):
I think it's years and years andyears of crystallizing the voice
and joke writing and just propelling them to to
superstardom. Yeah.
I don't know if I don't know if you can answer this so you can
say you can move on like a politician.
Go to another question, let me let me try not to.
Be a But I'm just curious, you know, when you're thinking about
(33:41):
Comedy Central programming, whatwhat what are you looking for of
where you're saying, OK, this, this is good or this should go
on at this time of day or that time of day because of all the
different things that go into what you choose for programming.
So I I am not the the programmerand serious, I would probably be
(34:03):
terrible at it. We have a great talented team of
people who do the programming but and also people who I don't
do the evaluations. We have a great evaluation team
of people who listen to this. I'm more on the deal making side
I see in my career because I don't.
Trust. So who would you make a deal
with? What would it take to make a
deal with Jack? Well, in any aspect of your
(34:26):
comedy life, what in any ventureyou're doing, what are you
looking for in that talent? Do you know what it's?
It's going to sound disingenuousto say it's the exact same
thing. You have to be really, really
funny and really, really unique and identifiable.
I I think if anything, that might be the one thing that
stays constant in this business because this business changes
(34:51):
almost completely every 9 to 18 months.
Again, that sounds like hyperbole.
It really. Is why?
Because how do you? Why do you?
Why do you say that? Because you'd think that an
entire industry can't change that completely in that short a
period of time. But there are always new
(35:13):
outlets, new ideas, new buyers of content, you know,
distributors and and broadcasters are going in and
out of business. When I got to Comedy Central, it
was one of the proudest days of my life because Comedy Central
was so pivotal for me in. My life it.
(35:34):
Was the place you went for comedy and and.
But and innovative. Yeah, exactly.
And, and for, for years and, youknow, it had been declined for a
minute. And then Netflix has been on the
ascendance and other outlets andjust things come and go.
And it, it was just, you know, it, it who knows?
(35:55):
Like the, the platforms change, the way you distribute comedy
changes. Do you put it on YouTube?
Is Spotify going to come in and do video?
Is, is Amazon going to be more in the comedy space?
What's going to happen? Like, we don't know.
But they're always new buyers and there's, there are always
companies that are there in decline.
(36:15):
And so you just have to keep your ear to the ground and
figure out, OK, where is this going to go?
Where have the paths been blazed?
Where do we think this is going to go for the future?
And I don't envy anybody that because it's, it's, it's, it's
in such a constant state of fluxthat like who knows?
You know, at the, when I got into this business in about
(36:39):
2000, 2002, CDs were the number one format, right?
And CDs in hindsight, we're kindof a nightmare because you had
to manufacture them, you had to warehouse them, you had to do
color Seps and pricing and positioning and listening
stations and make sure that theyweren't.
If something sold out, you had to have more inventory.
And then it became digital and it was all iTunes and the cost
(37:04):
to shoot or to record an album dropped dramatically.
And then no one was doing TV specials.
And then there became a lot of outlets for TV and the cost to
shoot a stand up special droppedfrom like $150,000 to now you
know, you could shoot a special today for five, ten, $20,000 and
they look great and there are a lot more outlets for it.
(37:24):
You can have the world see it onYouTube.
And that is as an artist is utterly fantastic.
The downside is, and there's always a monkey paw downside is
that everybody can do that now, right?
And so how do you differentiate,differentiate yourself among all
of the people who are putting out this this content?
So anyway, I don't know if that answers your question.
(37:45):
I think that was a politician. No, it does.
You answered it well. I have a question for you also.
Then you asked me about my favorite show.
Do you have a favorite show thatcomes to your mind?
You probably have many, but whatwould be some that?
So I mean, there are there are so many and it's not really
(38:05):
often the ones that are sort of the big landmark ones in
history. They're just nights that are are
magic. I remember seeing John Mulaney
for the first time and just going what this is so good.
He his voice is so amazing, so unique and so talented.
The night I produced a record with Dave Attell called Skanks
(38:29):
for the Memories and this was one of the first records we.
Produced it's very punk name. It's one of the best comedy
records ever. And we recorded it at the Comedy
Works in Denver on Halloween. And I, I remember flying into
Denver and there was this stuff called freezing fog and just
driving through and it was eerieand crazy.
(38:51):
And at the shows, people had been drinking since about noon
and they were all coming in costume and the mood was just
electric. And Dave was crushing.
Every crowd was just bringing down the house.
I remember one night there were it got so rowdy, two women were
escorted away in handcuffs and it was just out of control.
(39:12):
And I always have a fond retroaction of that.
And there were lots of great Hedberg nights and.
Yeah, but just I guess for me it's it's seeing a comedian I
wasn't really familiar with and Justice going wow.
Because it's really easy for, I mean, maybe not easy, but just
(39:33):
often times you could just tell,you could see a comic and they
have it, they have the the energy, they have the point of
view, they have the timing, or it just works.
And it's kind of transcendent because humor is everything for
me. It's how I deal with stress, how
I deal with trauma. And it's a lot of people think
it's inappropriate to deal with like, like negative topics in a
(39:54):
humorous way, but I find it's the best way to address things
and I just love it so much. I think it released that nervous
energy. It's like if you saw somebody
fall down a staircase. How many times is somebody
standing there laughing? I think thinking about is
effectively hilarious to me. And I don't I mean, it's it's
just one of those things becauseyeah, I just especially with
(40:14):
tragic events, to be able to deal with it.
I mean, not in the moment, but just with humorous is kind of
the only way for me to process it.
Otherwise it would just be too too sad, too too tough.
You know, it's interesting you mentioned that because if I had
to pick you just triggered because I was sitting here
thinking what was my all time favorite show and I might even
(40:36):
get teary tell when I tell you this.
There was no one there that couldn't have been teary.
In recollection was sometime after September 11th.
Robin Williams played at Carnegie Hall and Roy and I went
with another couple and it was afantastic show.
(41:02):
But how it wrapped up at the end, I'll never forget it.
How do you wrap it up? Talking about the resiliency of
New York. And it was just one of those
(41:26):
moments where you say, This is why I love comedy and it's also
why I loved Robin Williams because he could take everyone
from that laughter and gently give everyone the biggest hug.
I mean, it was a it was that pressure relief, that societal
pressure relief. But to me, comedy is that magic
(41:50):
medicine. So valuable, so valuable.
Yeah. And he, he was so great at that.
Taking, taking, you know, arcs and going from that mania to
seriousness and warmth and, and everything.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I, I, I went to, to one of
those, those cardiologists. I remember when I was.
(42:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's such a, it's such a
skill to be able to do that, youknow, and to make somebody laugh
about things that are, as you said, you used a word before, I
can't remember what it was, the deconstruction of things that
are not funny. They're horrible in society.
They're wrong, right? But add that sense of humor,
(42:33):
make somebody laugh, bring it around, almost agree with it,
you know, drive it so home that you're almost saying, I can't
believe they're saying this. You know, how could they say
this? And then they Zing it and twist
it in that other direction. It's, it's such a yeah, it's
such a unique and incredible skill.
And it's like, yeah, I just, I just love it so much as an art
(42:55):
form and I always have. And I'm just thrilled that I get
to be a part of it tangentially because I'm not talented.
I wish I could do it, but just Ilove, I love being a fan of it
and helping to be able to amplify it.
What do you Since you're on the pulse, you've really picked out
a lot of different comedians over the years.
(43:16):
Since you know, noticed talent, help nurture talent, recorded
talent. Where do you think things could
go next? What are other areas within that
world of entertainment? You know what what?
What goes beyond punk? What goes on rock?
What goes beyond comedy? Well, it's, it's funny because
(43:38):
one of the few things I've been pretty successful at my career
is identifying interesting sort of niche areas that are doing
really interesting stuff and helping to to amplify it.
I feel like right now magic as acategory is kind of in that
(44:02):
space. New York is a big Ground Zero
for a lot of amazing magic talent.
And there are a lot of similarities in my minds with
comedy in that I feel like we'recoming off the the observational
comedy bus equivalent in magic. And there are a lot of really
cool and innovative effects artists doing really cool and
(44:26):
innovative stuff, just kind of mind blowing tricks.
And magic as a genre is just kind of bubbling up into the
under the surface. Like people don't think about
going to a magic show the way they do think about going to the
movies or stand up show or even axe throwing, you know?
But there is a small group of just really, really talented
(44:50):
magicians who are doing innovative new stuff in a in in
new ways. And I really think that magic
has the potential to be the nextbig category and have shot a
series of seven special or sorryof of eight half hour specials,
(45:12):
multiple magicians. You were a part of those.
And let me just say for the record, I don't know what
Cameron to look at. Diane was awesome on the show.
The the best ever and we've alsoshot 7 full hour magic specials
just on spec and are trying to to find a home for them because
(45:37):
the world needs to see this And you know, I'm wrong about all
sorts of stuff. I'm really hoping I'm not wrong
about this because it's just a great form of entertainment that
has not gotten it to do I think in recent years.
You know, for since I moved to the city over 35, more than 35
years ago, about I started hosting an annual Christmas
(46:00):
party, holiday party. And it, it's just gotten bigger
and bigger and more fun. And I started to maybe 20 years
ago, I started to have a music magician who would walk through
the party and, you know, intermingle with everyone.
And I am blown away when you have these magicians, first of
all, that can work in the round.Yeah, that can pull lifesavers
(46:24):
out of the air, you know, fly them around like Saturn.
And I'm telling you, there are no strings around that
lifesaver. So how that lifesaver is flying
around the air, that's magic, you know, Or I, I'm still
reeling over Matthew Fuhrman pulling out my engagement ring
from, you know, those old key chains that used to have the
(46:46):
hard metal clasp? They'd be like 4 across in that.
Fold. Yeah.
And like a folding leather wallet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're talking, and he
asked for my engagement ring. And I gave it to him nervously,
you know, and it ended up in hisback pocket in one of those
class that I remember as a kid, breaking my fingernails.
(47:09):
Everyone would be like, oh, can you get the keys?
Oh, I know. Exactly what you're talking
about. They were impossible to slip on
there. Yeah.
Now how did that happen when we were all standing around?
You can only say magic. Yeah, it's, it's, you know.
Or someone guessing someone's maiden name.
The Mentalists, the stuff those guys do.
So skillful, so skillful. And so we have, we have a few
(47:36):
magicians on the roster and the I never ask how they do an
effect. I try to figure it out, but I
know the work that goes into it.We have, we have these these
magicians who work for six, ninemonths on an effect and stay in
their apartment for 10 hours a day for six to nine months,
perfecting 1 trick. And what one of the some of the
(48:01):
pushback we're getting from TV networks who are saying no to
our magic specials is that everyone thinks that magic on TV
is just camera tricks. So magic doesn't work on
television, which is. I don't know Siegfried and had
got their start on watch. I mean, yes, they were in Las
Vegas, but the world was watching them on TV.
(48:23):
Exactly. It's I didn't question that it
was magic. It's nonsense.
And what we, the way we want to help reframe the conversation is
like, no, this is a craft that people do.
And the notion of having it be camera tricks or AI or special
effects is anathema to what thisis, which is a, it's a craft.
It's people who are skilled craftspeople doing this amazing
(48:47):
craft. And we just want to to help
amplify that because it's just you should see some stuff.
And you have, Oh my gosh, I would love it because I'm just
blown away by magicians. Magicians and comedy.
So it's an interesting tie in you're making because it's, it
is, well, to me, magicians, yeah, I'm sure they practice,
(49:09):
but to me, they're magicians. It's magic.
And I can't because I can't imagine it.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's jaw-dropping what they can come
up with and the way they figure out how to solve problems.
And yeah, so hopefully, hopefully this is something that
that will get its due in in the mainstream on a bigger scale
because there, there are some shows.
(49:30):
I would watch that. I would love to see that all the
whole series. Well please do, I hope there are
there are 1,000,000 more like you.
I hope they get on the air. I mean, I could see that as a
Netflix series that people wouldtune into or yeah.
Yeah. Paramount Plus it's He needs to
get onto one of those. Totally.
Yeah, it's yeah, it's good stuff.
So hey, hopefully that's that's where that's the next big thing.
(49:54):
Very cool. Well, Jack Vaughn, my gosh, what
a pleasure this has been. And time goes too fast.
Yeah, this. Thanks so much for having me.
This has been so much fun. I appreciate it.
Thank you. We got to talk about two of my
favorite topics, comedy for sure, and magic.
So much fun talking about. Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you everybody. I'm Diane Griselle.
This has been the Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics
(50:16):
podcast, and my guest has been the amazing, talented, creative
Jack Vaughn, who is somebody youwant to watch.
So there will be all kinds of links below this podcast.
You're going to want to pay attention.
You may even want to get in touch.
I don't know if that'll help youor not, but you might.
I'm around all kinds of info about him below this podcast.
(50:40):
Thank you very much. Thank you, Jack.
Thanks, Diane. Thanks everyone.
Subscribe.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.